Four Tests of a Scapegoat - Gracearchy with Jim Babka 166

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I just want to say that there's a choice between
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doing everything you can and make yourself feel good aka catharsis,
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which is the purpose of the scapegoat mechanism.
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It's cathartic as opposed to reflection where you.
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Pause and say, wait a minute, maybe this person is innocent,
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maybe they didn't mean me any harm. And this is
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one of the things that Gerard has helped me with,
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which is what is sin. So if you have a
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knowledge of grace and you have a knowledge of Gerard's
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scapegoat process, I think you have a better chance of
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understanding what sin actually is. I'm going to put it
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down for this. I've had written one hundred different definitions
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because I really want to do I really think this
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is a pressing thing. The divisive tendency towards believing someone
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is deserving of judgment because they interfere with your imagined happiness.
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The divisive tendency towards believing someone is deserving of judgment
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You want them to be judged because they interfere with
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your imagined happiness. If you have somebody else looking to
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draw you into their conflict, holy cow, be very very careful.
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Instead of conflict and aggression. Here's governance built on grace.
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Welcome to Grace Arcade with Jim Babka. We've got a
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pretty quick show today and it's actually all about the scapegoat.
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So you might be a scapegoat if you pass four tests,
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and we're going to talk about what those are, right, Jim, Yes,
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we are not that you want to be a scapegoat.
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Don't go Don't get me wrong. Escapegoating is no fun
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for the scapegoat.
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No, it is not.
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No.
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So we just did an episode history.
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We just talked about Anthony Fauci, and that episode, which
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we will put the link to in the show notes,
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referenced the scapegoat.
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We spent in fact, we didn't. We more than reference.
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It's in the toll.
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Yeah, I know, I was harping on the scapehoak. You
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know that was me.
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Yeah, it's your fault yep.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So I'm sitting in post production, we're doing I put
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the time stamps on the most of the time, and
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I do it manually.
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I listened to the entire up.
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We listened to the entire episode, and there are moments
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where I cringe or have regret that I should have
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said this or I didn't say that, or I said
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something a little not precisely, And in this most of
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the time, it's just.
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You got to let it go.
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You have to just kind of live with the fact
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that you made a mistake and you got to move
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on with life. This time, though, I sat and did said,
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you know what, Bill's questions are really good, and I
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need to think about this, and I've come up with
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four ways that you could know we're talking about a
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Scapegoat here, and I want to be clear, we are
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talking about the Renee Girard version of the Scapegoat, right,
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So we have a playlist on our YouTube channel at
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Gray Sarki where we have Girard related episodes. This will
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end up in that playlist, We'll uh. So we're going
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to put that in the show notes for you too,
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so you can find that quickly.
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But we have.
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Suggested that episode eighty eight is our most important episode
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where we laid out the Scapegoat.
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The whole system.
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We started off with the medic rivalry, we went through
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the Scapegoat, we talked about how Jesus unmasks that We're
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not going to get in all those details here today.
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I just want people to know if you need reference points,
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it is not quite enough to grab onto. The one
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episode I recommended above and beyond all the ones that
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we've done is episode eighty eight.
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I considered our most important piece of work.
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We have fantastic stuff that I love, but episode eighty
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eight is about this, and I encourage people to go
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back to it.
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There are some caveats.
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Well, First, Gerard has become a big name. And contrary
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to what I just read an article the other day
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where the guy was like, well he was really big
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in the early days of blogging, that's not really true. No,
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it's much bigger now in the twenty twenties. And he's
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been attached to two very significant names, the Vice President
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of the United States JD. Vance and Peter Teal, who
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by the way, are connected to each other. Teal introduced
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Rene Gerard to Jade Vance. I there the majority of
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people who are followers, are interested or adherents to Renee
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Gerard's work, are not Christian nationalists technocrats. Clearly, Jade Vance
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is and Peter TiAl is the one that's empowered him
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and made him, helped make him vice president. And I've
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been struggling private, you know, I haven't said this out loud.
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You know this.
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I've wanted to talk about Peter Teal and the Antichrist
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for quite some time, but I cannot figure out how
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to condense that into into one or even two shows.
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I don't know how to organize that.
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I have pages and pages and pages of material to cover,
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and usually if I can't fit everything on a page
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and a half, the show's going to run.
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Yeah, that it's not gonna happen.
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So, but I want to make clear that Gerard has
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been used by a lot of different people. There's a
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lot of people on the political left who also embrace him,
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and they're distressed that.
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Jade Vance likes Gerard.
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So I just want to make clear we're not advancing
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either of these partisan views. Second, Girard's take on sacrifice,
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which is sacred violence, is one of at least two
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versions of sacred violence leading to the formation of things
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or the structure of things, particularly the state, that I
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take very seriously.
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There's two versions of this.
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I want to say that I believe sacrifice needs to
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end Jesus ended at all, and this includes my view
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on war. I take it is finished, very very seriously.
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Gerard's take in particular is that the scapegoat is based
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on a memetic rivalry, which is where two persons or
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parties are in rivalry with one another.
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They want the same thing over.
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The same thing.
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And it's not always the case that both parties are
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aware of the war. It might be only one. There's
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different types of mediation, as Gerard called it. We get
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into this in more detail in episode eighty eight and
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even other things that we cover where we've done this
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in that YouTube playlist.
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Can you just clarify really quick on this. Can the
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memetic rivalry be between groups?
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Yes, In fact, it's not uncommon, and we're going to
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get to this. For people to enroll a mob, yes
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on their side, yes, and that's where the scapegoating tends
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to happen, is as a result of a mob.
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So yes.
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So to make my point clear, neither Grace nor George
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scapegoat requires us. And this is really super important because
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you raise this issue when we were talking about Anthony Fauci.
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But I want to be clear that we are not
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required to issue or for sake justice and we're definitely people.
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I get this thing where I'm like, well, that's not
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very graceful. Jim I'll say certain things, and I'm human.
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Sometimes they're right, Jim, that's not very graceful, right. But
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grace in that definition is dormat you lay down and
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you just let people go trampling across, right, or you
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lay other people down and you let them go trampling across.
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Neither one of those things are acceptable.
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Yeah, neither one of those mirror are described the practitioners
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of grace that we've talked about on this show.
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No, Darryl Davis is to Milt Davis comes to mind
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a real role model for the show.
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We not a dormat, not a doormat, not a doormat,
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not at all.
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When people start suggesting that I recoil because it's almost like,
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how do I get across that? Sometimes grace involves tough love.
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How do I come get across that? And this is
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the point we focused on in that episode. Truth comes
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before reconciliation. Reconciliation is impossible without truth. Forgive us as possible,
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but reconciliation is impossible without some acknowledgment of the truth,
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some awareness of the truth. And truth, as I pointed
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out in that show, is our highest commitment. Is it
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is higher than the other commitments available. If we aren't
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grasping the truth, what is the rest of it all
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of about?
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So you can't have versions of the truth to achieve reconciliation.
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Without being able to analyze all the possibilities and the
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time that we have available to us. My initial blunt
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response that would be you would only have partial or
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portions of the truth. You wouldn't have the truth, you
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would have something inferior.
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To the truth.
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I raise that because that's where I find myself today
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in this world of trying to discern what's fake from
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what's real, even let alone of the real stuff what's true.
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So the truth I would focus on here today as
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opposed to broad truth for the purposes of this discussion,
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I do mean broad truth, but for the purpose discussion
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is the dispute between parties where one side believes the
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other has harmed them.
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Yep.
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Okay, that's where we're really at today, yep.
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And of course you know it's always the red shirts
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that are harming the black shirts, and then those of
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those can't see this right.
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Now, or Jim's wearing red and I'm wearing flax.
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Jim is really wearing red. It's loud, all right, bright red. Okay,
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non culpability. This is really kind of interesting because a
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scapegoat is not.
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Like liable.
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In fact, the scapegoat is an innocent that becomes liable
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for all of the scapegoating that the rest of us
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are throwing on it and sending it out into the desert.
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Right, Yeah, I would almost put this in gradations. The
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key term that we had up on the screen a
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moment ago was non culpability. Culpability is the key thing.
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Culpability implies that you have responsibility for the outcome of
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what happened. Your act led to the result, your intent
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led to the result. So those are culpability factors. Right, Yes,
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you've created some kind of liability. So I continuum. You
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could talk about being partially innocent, mostly innocent, innocent and
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martyr basically.
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Right, right, but if your at scale of culpability.
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Yeah, but on the other end is culpability.
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The opposite of a martyr is culpability.
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Right, This is someone who is really so the scapegoat
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is someone who is really not responsible. But because there's
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been a conflict that's boiled up and a war on
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both sides and peace is sought, what they do is
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they commit what's called the founding murder. Right, it's the
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murder upon which the peace is based.
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And this is what was.
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Done in ancient times. But we tend to fool ourselves
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and think we're not doing it anymore. But we are
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doing it. We'll get into some of the ways that
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we still do it here momentarily. But what we do
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is we make a sacrifice, and the sacrifice is essentially this.
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I'm gonna say it twice because they want to make
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sure it lands. The pretense that the destruction of one
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offender makes the problem go away. The preten that the
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destruction of one offender makes the problem go away.
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The pretense.
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So we have to agree that if we get rid
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of this one scapegoat, the problem is gone.
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Correct, So we throw the virgin down the volcano.
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Well I wasn't going to go that far, but yes,
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but you get what I'm saying. What you're saying, right, Okay, So.
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We picked the virgin because that's innocence, right, We pick
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throwing them down because this kind of thinking did exist sacrificially, right,
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there was a belief that for the good of the whole.
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We're going to hit on that subject in a little
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bit too. But the story I want to turn to
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first that kind of reveals this pattern, kind of unmasks.
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It actually happens before Jesus. It happens near the very beginning.
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Of the Bible.
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He's canaan Abel, right, yeah, yep.
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So Abel is innocent.
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Caine murders him out of rage. He's very upset because
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Able apparently his sacrifice received God's favor and Kines did not.
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Case.
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So the rivalry is I want God's favor too, right, correct.
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And so in order to get that, he was willing
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to murder his brother. But we hear unlike a lot
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of mythology, which takes a lot of these same stories
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and presents the to sanitize layer over top, doesn't so
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that the murders hit slightly hidden or hidden entirely. So
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you're told about various things that happened. But what you
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don't The part you don't hear is the victim speaking,
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or they put new words in the victim's mouth. The
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victim sometimes even asks for the destruction to be done
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to them, but not an Abel's case. Abel's blood cries
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from the ground. Okay, Abel was innocent, and this is
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where the unmasking of this entire process begins. So I
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just want you to think of non culpability, and I
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want I chose that term because it's precise. A lot
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of times we focus on innocence, but then you say, well,
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wait a minute, so and so isn't really innocent. Well,
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there's degrees of innocence we'll concerned about. Here is culpability.
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I am saying, if they're culpable, we might be the
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lens we probably should be putting on might have more
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to do with justice than with escape.
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Cape goat escapegoat mechanism still works inside of justice, but
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if we try to use one for the other, it's
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going to mess it up.
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Check your motives at the door.
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So the hard part about making this list of four
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was that there are external factors and there are internal factors.
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And what I mean by external there's social or out
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there right, yes, and then there's stuff that's inside my
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own heart and that doesn't That makes the lines fuzzy,
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That makes it harder to grasp what this whole thing is.
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So a question that I would ask, is is coveting
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president we are again we're looking at the Girardian version of
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the scapegoat. Is coveting present, right, do.
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You have something that I want?
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There is nothing I can say this with a clean heart.
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I've spent a lot of time analyzing this. I've had
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conversations with my wife about this. There is nothing in
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my heart that says I want what Anthony Fauci has.
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I have not been able to figure out what that
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thing is. And so that was part of the reason
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that I said no, that's not when we were talking.
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I didn't realize it at the time, but that was
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part of what I was kind of like in the
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back of my head, going, no, this is different.
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This is not the scapegoat here because you don't want
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anything that thout I'm not in rivalry with You're not
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in rivalry, right.
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Okay, I'm in I'm concerned about injustices that have occurred
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for which I believe he is culpable.
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And this is interesting.
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We're going to get into some of whether or not
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how culpable he actually was before we're done. I don't
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want to get into that prematurely, but I would say
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here for the motive a portion of this, are you
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willing to steal man innocence? Like? Are you willing to
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take the person's case and present that case. Are you
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willing to make an argument that actually is good? And
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maybe even Bill, this is really hard, but this is
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very much something we've done repeatedly on grace archy. Are
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you willing to take the best argument? And that may
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not be the argument they're making, Yes, true, right, because
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it may be that they're like, well, everybody just hates me.
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Well that's not true either, and we know that, and
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that's the best argument they can muster. No, we could
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actually say, well, you probably intended to do this and
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got misunderstood in this way, and like we could do
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that kind of thing and help make their arguments stronger.
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And then here's the important part.
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This is the part that again I want to make
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sure people are playing grace properly, right, not a doormat.
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Can we deal with those arguments? Are those arguments sufficient?
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Can you a so steal Manning's two parts. Everybody thinks about, oh,
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you give your opponent the best argument, But then to
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you task whether or not the argument stands up. And
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those are the ways that you confront the problem. You
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don't confront their straw man arguments. You don't invent a
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set of arguments so you can burn them in effigy
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metaphorically speaking, you give them the best arguments you can
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think of, maybe better than the ones they would give themselves,
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and then you say, are those arguments correct? If so,
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why if not?
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Why not?
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And then this is how you can tell whether or
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not this what are we going to call them?
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The object of the desire, the other party, the potential scapegoat.
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This is how you can tell whether or not you're
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motivated by justice or motivated by the scapegoat mechanism.
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Right, yeah, yeah, I.
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Would say that if you're willing to steal man them,
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you have turned away from scapegoating them if you can.
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I mean, it might not be possible. There's a straw
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steel man too, you know.
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Or you try to make arguments for somebody and they're
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all completely bogus, but you're doing it, but you have
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the motivation, like inside, your motive is pureer.
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Right.
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I'm glad you brought that up, because our justice system works,
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like we have just described.
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Both you and me in the previous moment here have described.
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So how often do defendants represent themselves in court? And
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is it a good idea for them to do so
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the answer is, they don't do it. Very often, and
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it is a bad idea for them to do so
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in general, because most of the time there is somebody
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whose job is to be a professional advocate, so they
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have learned the skills of advocating for a client they have.
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They're not taken the arguments the person wants to make, and.
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They always avoid making all the arguments that could possibly
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be made because that's a very bad thing to do
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for a lot of reasons. And they make the best
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arguments that they think they can make under the circumstances. Now,
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that's a very narrow setting, and there's certain rules there
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that may preclude true epistemological, true reality or truth reality
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claims in favor of just trying to get their client off.
355
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But the model that you see there is that, Okay,
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maybe I can't relate to them, but we have all
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these standards in here. We have a advocate or a
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lawyer speaking for them. We have a judge who's trying
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to impartially manage the proceeding, and then either a judge
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or jury who will then rule on the result. And
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those other people help, and maybe we have to put
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things in court or talk to other friends so that
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we can break free of our own attachments and understand
364
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why we're in a certain position. And it's good to
365
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have people in your life. My son happens to be
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one of these people who will tell me when he
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thinks I'm wrong. He will make arguments with all due respect,
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right and tell me, you know you're all wet, dad,
369
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And gosh, some of those are like cold water in
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the face.
371
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Right, It's really good.
372
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They can also be very instructive.
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Yes, So we went back to culpability at the beginning
374
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the all time great unmasking, and this is Gerard's view
375
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comes from Jesus because his trial was inherently unjust and
376
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it was designed to satisfy a mob, and the claim
377
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that was being made against them was that he was
378
00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:22.880
tearing everything apart. Now I'm oversimplifying. That story is very rich.
379
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There's a lot of details.
380
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We're going to go down.
381
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But there's one character in the story that really really
382
00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.440
stands out to a Gerardian, to somebody who's following grenade
383
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Gerard's approach, and that is Caiaphas, the High priest, who
384
00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:41.119
basically is the orchestrator of the entire scheme. He wants
385
00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:46.759
Jesus destroyed and by destroyed, murdered, and so Jesus.
386
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Has a threat to every phariseical tradition that was around.
387
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He then says, it is better for one man to
388
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die than for the people to perish. There's this idea
389
00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:01.720
that if we kill this one person, we restore peace,
390
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.319
we restore order, we restore the system. But if we
391
00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:07.759
let this man live, all of that could be lost.
392
00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:11.200
And that's worse. Their life is not worth all of
393
00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:14.960
the things I just laid out. They must be destroyed.
394
00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:21.119
So in that case, Kiaphis is coveting his power and
395
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:25.519
position and he believes Jesus is a threat to that,
396
00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:31.559
and so that is scapegoating.
397
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:40.160
That's the real version of it. Yep, sit with that, people.
398
00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:43.799
It takes some time, but I promise you right, you'll
399
00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:44.240
get it.
400
00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:47.519
Okay, so let's move on. Can we move to rivalry?
401
00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:48.440
Yeah?
402
00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.359
So this rivalry concept is really important, and somewhere in
403
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:54.240
here maybe we can drop it in as we're talking.
404
00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:58.039
I can drop over the Gerard diagram so you can
405
00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:01.000
see visually how this all works.
406
00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:04.079
Yeah, I just I want to focus on these words
407
00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:05.720
we got on the screen for a moment. They are
408
00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:09.680
rival for those listening, Rivalry leading to envy. Yes, the
409
00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:14.400
subtitle of this section rivalry leading to envy. So this
410
00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:17.559
the two things that we talked about here are my
411
00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:23.279
time spending, you know, pondering and meditating and reading about Gerard.
412
00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:23.640
Over the years.
413
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:26.240
But this is the stuff that smacks you in the face.
414
00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:29.279
This is the obvious stuff that he says clearly and
415
00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:33.319
out loud. And almost every recitation of the girardin approach
416
00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:36.440
ends up coming back to this concept of a rivalry
417
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.759
that's based on envy. I use the word envy on purpose.
418
00:21:39.799 --> 00:21:44.279
It's not mere jealousy. It's the looking at another person
419
00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:45.920
and saying they don't deserve.
420
00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:46.839
What they have, right.
421
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:51.319
Yeah, you know, Billy Bill just got a fancy sports car.
422
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:55.200
I hope he wraps it around a tree. Right, So
423
00:21:56.119 --> 00:22:01.720
that's what's going on. Let's come back to our sacrifice definition,
424
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:05.960
because this is really important here. The pretense that destruction
425
00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:11.039
of one offender makes the problem go away. So in
426
00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:15.279
the Gospels, Jesus suggests that if you call your brother
427
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:18.720
a fool, you've already murdered him in your heart, and
428
00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:21.720
murder in the heart is what precedes actual murder. Right,
429
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:25.680
this person's inconvenient to me they have done something that
430
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:31.119
I reject, resent, hate, loathe, which they had to suffer
431
00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:33.720
as much as I am, or more than I presently
432
00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:38.200
am suffering. They're responsible if we if we got them
433
00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:40.799
out of the way, my problem would go away. They
434
00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:44.160
are a problem. They're an impediment right now. That's what
435
00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:46.559
it means to label someone else a fool in that
436
00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:51.039
context and then to wish their destruction, and so Jesus,
437
00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:52.839
you know, a lot of sermons go on about how
438
00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:54.759
you know, don't be careful what you're thinking in your
439
00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:56.920
head because it leads whatever, but they don't really explain
440
00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:01.799
why that's important. And Gerard does. He is saying that
441
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:05.359
this is this is essentially murder, not because it's a
442
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:08.079
thought crime, right it is.
443
00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:09.680
It is murder because.
444
00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:12.640
You've decided that another human being is inconvenient to your existence,
445
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:15.880
your pursuit of your whatever. They've gotten in the way,
446
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:20.200
and now you're actually starting to fantasize about their destruction,
447
00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:26.759
their pain, their removal. James the Apostle, in his epistle
448
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.160
went further. He suggested that there was a pattern here.
449
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.680
The key part of the pattern was you covet, which
450
00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:36.160
is another word for envy. You really want what the
451
00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:40.279
other person has. Yep, so you kill, you covet you
452
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:43.200
kill that's the pattern. So it's not you kill you
453
00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:44.759
cove it, it's you know what I'm saying. It's like
454
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:47.240
there's a coveting that goes in and it's like, okay,
455
00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:50.319
that gives me my motive now to wish the destruction
456
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:51.200
of this other person.
457
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:53.519
He use a word, the thought crime comes first.
458
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:58.359
Yes, there are two things to say about this. First,
459
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:03.279
that the scapegoat is catharsis. It makes us feel better
460
00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:08.240
instead of reflection, which is where we would pause and say,
461
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:11.599
wait a minute, what is my role here or what
462
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:14.559
is the humanity of the other person here? So let
463
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:16.799
me give you an example of the second without delving
464
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:20.799
too deeply. Here, if you're pausing to think of the
465
00:24:20.839 --> 00:24:26.160
other person we just talked about Steelman, there's a phrase,
466
00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:30.119
and it's actually really valuable, almost in a stoic sense,
467
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:34.000
that I didn't mean to hurt you. I wasn't even
468
00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:38.680
thinking of you. And sometimes that's set as a burn,
469
00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:42.119
it's rude, it's a comeback, it's a mic drop moment.
470
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:46.119
But there's also a to times where it's sincere, like
471
00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:48.599
I was just doing my thing over here and I
472
00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:51.480
didn't realize it was going to hurt you, or I
473
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:54.720
didn't know I hurt you. Right, So, how many times
474
00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:57.759
have you had the experience or observed the experience where
475
00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:01.400
someone is raging mad at some point one else. I've
476
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:05.200
just done it in the last week, raging mad at
477
00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:08.000
someone else who didn't intend to.
478
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:09.200
Do you any harm whatsoever.
479
00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:13.160
Right, they It's just like this person creating inconvenience for
480
00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:16.160
me at this moment. Like most of the time, to
481
00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:19.440
my credit, I let go pretty quick and I realize
482
00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:21.920
I'm wrong. But I wish I could always get in
483
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:23.519
front of it. I wish it would be like first,
484
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:26.480
my very first thought would be no, this person wasn't
485
00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:28.400
even thinking to me at the moment, right, They didn't
486
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:30.839
mean to do it. In fact, they had a good
487
00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:34.240
reason for doing what they did. Right, if only it
488
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:34.960
were that simple.
489
00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:38.680
But there are whole industries that are bent on taking
490
00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:43.400
the other people apart simply because they perceive that the
491
00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:46.000
other people are in their way.
492
00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:48.440
Yeah, politics, by the way, is one of them, which
493
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:50.480
is the one we rail against the most on this show.
494
00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:54.200
So I just want to say that there's a choice
495
00:25:54.200 --> 00:25:56.720
between doing everything you can to make yourself feel good,
496
00:25:56.759 --> 00:25:59.960
aka catharsis, which is the purpose of the scapegoat mechanism.
497
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:03.599
It's cathartic, yeah, as opposed to reflection, where you pause
498
00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:06.000
and say, wait a minute, maybe this person's innocent, maybe
499
00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:09.279
they didn't mean me any harm Okay.
500
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:11.279
I don't know how we get there, Jim, but I
501
00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:13.240
think you're on the I think you're right on the
502
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:16.359
cusp of what it takes to make change happen. Okay,
503
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:18.839
are we going to be happy cathartic or are we
504
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:21.279
going to actually reflect on?
505
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:21.599
Okay?
506
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:24.240
It might mean can I get heavy theological with you
507
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:28.559
for a second here, you've got to The Bible has
508
00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:30.839
this concept the New Testament in particular, but it's in
509
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:33.200
the Old Testament as well. Has this concept of sin.
510
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:37.480
Harmartia is the Greek word for it. It means essentially
511
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:40.880
to miss the mark. Now, normally when people think of sin,
512
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:42.799
they think of two things. They think of pleasure. Oh,
513
00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:43.920
we're going to go out and sin. So you go
514
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:47.079
to Las Vegas. It's sin city, and it means you're
515
00:26:47.079 --> 00:26:50.279
doing something a little naughty or wrong, a little transgressive,
516
00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:52.440
that actually is going to make you feel good. And
517
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:54.960
then we have another definition of sin, which is the
518
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:57.200
religious version, which is a list of things that you
519
00:26:57.240 --> 00:27:00.319
should not do. They are bad, they are naughty. You
520
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:03.240
might even have naughty bits that you know are are
521
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.480
going to send you to help. You're you're you're essentially
522
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:09.400
condemning yourself to help. And a lot of people react
523
00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:17.119
to this by by the randomness, the capriciousness of it, the.
524
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:20.720
Why why is this thing wrong?
525
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:23.720
And this thing's okay, like and and and I think
526
00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:25.680
all of these discussions that have been had over the
527
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:29.559
years are wrong headed. And this is one of the
528
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:32.079
things that Gerard has helped me with, which is what
529
00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:35.440
is sin. So if you have a knowledge of grace
530
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:39.240
and you have a knowledge of Gerard's scapegoat process, I
531
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:41.400
think you have a better chance of understanding what sin
532
00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:44.680
actually is. I'm going to put it down for this.
533
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:47.440
I've had written one hundred different definitions because I really
534
00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:50.039
want to do I really think this is a pressing thing.
535
00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:52.359
If I have enough time, I'll write a book just
536
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:57.160
about sin. I I it's this important, okay. The divisive
537
00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:00.599
tendency towards believing someone is deserving of judgment because they
538
00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:05.559
interfere with your imagined happiness the divisive tendency towards believing
539
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:08.880
someone is deserving of judgment. You want them to be
540
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:13.480
judged because they interfere with your imagined happiness. I said
541
00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:16.640
at the top of this segment that the rivalry leading
542
00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:18.440
to envy part is the part that nobody misses when
543
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:20.519
they're getting their first course in Gerard, that's the one
544
00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:25.000
that's the most explicit. My term for sin, if I
545
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:26.359
wanted to come up with a one short hand, if
546
00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:27.319
you put a gun in my head and said you
547
00:28:27.319 --> 00:28:28.960
can only describe it in two words, I would call
548
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:34.759
it covetuous rivalry, which is exactly what Gerard is addressing.
549
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:38.559
Covet Now I'm in rivalry. I want your I envy you,
550
00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:39.519
I want you destroyed.
551
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:45.000
But pride, avarice, these could all show up in these
552
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.519
situations too. They all would fit inside the definition I
553
00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:51.640
just gave you, which is the divisive tendency towards believing
554
00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:54.319
someone is deserving of judgment because they interfere with your
555
00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:58.599
imagined happiness. So the division is what's happening. There's sin
556
00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:01.920
where we're divided from God. There's sin where we're divided
557
00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:06.880
from neighbor, and there's sin where we divide ourselves. This
558
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:09.839
is the state that we're all dealing with, and it's
559
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:14.599
ever present in every human So there's a whole school
560
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:16.279
of thought and I was raised in it where it's like,
561
00:29:16.759 --> 00:29:20.440
you know, uh, the punishment for sin is death, right,
562
00:29:20.599 --> 00:29:22.160
go to Romans. Right.
563
00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:24.079
It's not a punishment.
564
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:29.799
It's a condition that we're in and it is destructive
565
00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:33.960
of relationships. It is destructive with our in our within
566
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:37.559
our own spirit, and it's a condition that has that
567
00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:42.079
must be addressed. These divisions should to the best of ability,
568
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:45.640
and there's actually I actually have very specific spiritual and
569
00:29:45.799 --> 00:29:47.960
faith based views on how this is carried out.
570
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:48.880
But I don't.
571
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:51.480
But regardless of whether you're on my same track or not,
572
00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:55.279
I think you can tell like you know, you know that,
573
00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:57.400
you know that, you know that we have a lot
574
00:29:57.440 --> 00:29:59.640
of division in the world and it's not healthy, it's
575
00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:02.039
not good, and we'd be better off if there was
576
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:06.440
less of it. And somehow they're in this process we
577
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:09.279
don't recognize the uniqueness or specialness of all the human
578
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:11.200
beings in the in the equation.
579
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:13.920
Jim, I'm gonna stop you for a second, because I
580
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:20.680
think that definition is divisive. Very good, all right, go
581
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:24.599
and I'm remembering I'm remembering our one of our early guests,
582
00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:28.319
Pastor Dave Brisbane, who studies Jesus from the from the
583
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:31.759
Arabic first century perspective.
584
00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:35.720
And I think I've got this right. I'm gonna go
585
00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:37.000
out on a limb with this one.
586
00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:39.720
But I believe the word that is translated as sin
587
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:45.720
in Aramic is bisha, and that word in Arabic means unripe.
588
00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:50.759
It's simply unripe. It's not ready to be harvested.
589
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:56.440
Okay, I don't have that in my head. So you
590
00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:59.079
just put a new thought in front of me, and
591
00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:03.839
my initial for blush is to resist it. Oh because sure, no, no, no,
592
00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:07.119
I know exactly. There's a liberal tinge to this. And
593
00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:10.440
what I mean by liberal it's like there's a way
594
00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:16.079
that we're just not there yet. You know, you're just
595
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:19.799
not realizing your full potential. I like this answer, and
596
00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:22.440
it's that's not what's going on here.
597
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:24.640
It's what's going on.
598
00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:27.599
Here is that you have placed yourself over and above
599
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:29.440
another human being.
600
00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:31.480
You believe you have power.
601
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:34.599
This is not a like we're discussing two different things here.
602
00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:37.279
Now, I don't think so, not in a Girardian sense.
603
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:38.039
I don't think so.
604
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:39.720
And I think this is the core issue that we're
605
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:42.519
dealing with with sin is that the division has been cast.
606
00:31:43.319 --> 00:31:45.640
We're gonna split something and we're gonna put one thing
607
00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:48.039
over another thing. We're going to create the department of
608
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:50.119
things stocked on top of other things. That's gonna be
609
00:31:50.119 --> 00:31:52.480
a little club. Yeah, ye, little money pithon.
610
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:53.480
Reference for you there, yep.
611
00:31:54.519 --> 00:31:58.680
But it's not absurd, it's real and it's dangerous. So
612
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:01.000
what I think people tend to do in a state
613
00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:06.000
of centers reach for power. They want to get control
614
00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:06.799
of the situation.
615
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:10.160
I would say they reach for force. They want to
616
00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:14.160
coerce you. If they were reaching for the power, they
617
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.960
would bring you along and they would help you ripen.
618
00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:17.680
Well.
619
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:20.599
Okay, so this is how people different on words. I
620
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:22.799
mean more the course of version of power.
621
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:23.240
Right.
622
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:25.440
So we're not in disagreement.
623
00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:26.799
Here, right, I just want to be clear about the terms.
624
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:37.839
Okay, they reach for some method to gain control, yep, government, dishonesty, whatever.
625
00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:38.839
Right.
626
00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:42.799
So I think every time I think we have to
627
00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:44.920
ask who are my victims? In these situations?
628
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:48.799
I think this rivalry leading to envy question, we have
629
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:53.039
to ask ourselves. Are we creating victims? Are we scapegoating
630
00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:56.079
the innocent? That's the call to action in this section.
631
00:32:56.519 --> 00:32:59.319
I love that question. Okay, well, it's what I'm doing,
632
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:00.000
creating a victim.
633
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:02.759
If so, it's force based, not power based, and it
634
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:04.559
plays right into mametic rivalry.
635
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:07.400
Okay, it's like using that for my own good.
636
00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:10.240
Yes, okay, So.
637
00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:14.119
Last point I want to make here forming a mob
638
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:17.640
because most of the time the scapegoat happens as a
639
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:21.240
result of mob action. Yes, you can privately escape, so
640
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:23.559
somebody we just dealt with that a moment ago, but
641
00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:26.400
you probably don't actually have the power to carry out
642
00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:30.960
all your judgments. Most of the time, you usually need help.
643
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:35.039
And what we do is we started rolling people. Gossip
644
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:36.960
is one way we go about doing it right. We
645
00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:39.480
start a whisper campaign. We got to get other people
646
00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:41.240
on our side. We're going to range, We're going to
647
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:44.559
start to build that coercive power by using the energy
648
00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:47.599
of others, and we form a mob. We draw other
649
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:50.839
people into the conflict. There's many things to be said
650
00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:53.000
about this, just for the purposes of section we're in,
651
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:55.319
There's only one thing I want to say, and that is,
652
00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:59.000
if you have somebody else looking to draw you into
653
00:33:59.119 --> 00:33:59.920
their conflict.
654
00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:02.240
Holy Cow, will be.
655
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:08.119
Very very careful, Be very very careful when you start
656
00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:11.519
taking up a fence on behalf of another person, even
657
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:20.239
if it seems obvious, you're treading in dangerous territory. Now,
658
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:23.199
when we bring a jury together, when we have police
659
00:34:23.239 --> 00:34:24.840
and courts and all the rest of the stuff that
660
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:28.360
we do, we are bringing other people into the equation.
661
00:34:29.320 --> 00:34:32.360
So be careful what your role is in that situation.
662
00:34:33.159 --> 00:34:35.320
But if you decide you're going to be judge, jury
663
00:34:35.320 --> 00:34:39.280
an executioner together with the person who's angry and broken, hurt, harmed,
664
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:45.920
you may actually be helping scapegoat in innocent. And it's
665
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:48.440
just important that you pause and know that.
666
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:57.599
Okay, that's the show is brought to you by the
667
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:02.440
Zero Aggression Project. Subscribers get alerts when each episode is released.
668
00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:04.360
The zapp website is also the.
669
00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:06.760
Pathway by which you can contact us by email and
670
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:07.519
support the show.
671
00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:11.440
This just program operates thanks to tech deductibles app contributions,
672
00:35:11.480 --> 00:35:14.719
and we appreciate your support. So zapp the state and
673
00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:19.280
to have a nice day.
674
00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:23.000
Okay, let's take a minute and breathe here.
675
00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:25.920
If you're not seeing this.
676
00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:29.280
The banner says interlude, Yes, and there's a reason we're
677
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:30.039
doing this right now.
678
00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:31.840
Okay.
679
00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:35.119
I there are a couple of people I've shared this
680
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:37.280
theory with over the years, and one of the things
681
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:39.320
that they'll tell me is like, ah, this doesn't work.
682
00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:41.239
I have a whole bunch of reasons for why I
683
00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:43.960
do the things I do. I don't borrow other people's desires,
684
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:46.679
which is Gerard one on one. It's the mimetic theory
685
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:48.920
at the very top layer of the whole thing. Again,
686
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:52.039
we cover this at episode eighty eight. His theory very
687
00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:57.199
strictly doesn't deal with we have certain drives. The most
688
00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:02.000
important one I could mention, or it's most common, is hunger. Right,
689
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:05.239
we're hungry, and you obviously have certain food pyramid like
690
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:07.280
the nature of the basic names. You have things that
691
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:10.760
you like better than others. They're your personal taste. Some
692
00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:13.679
of those can be that stuff, right, Some of these
693
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:15.840
things can be socially delivered. But you know, we know
694
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:17.920
families where there's a certain dish that's served in the
695
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:20.079
house and there's like one kid that hates it right
696
00:36:20.679 --> 00:36:24.920
and resents it, and so it's not necessarily genetic and
697
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:26.400
it's not necessarily environment.
698
00:36:26.440 --> 00:36:28.000
You just simply didn't like the thing.
699
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:30.719
We're not talking about that, okay, And we're not talking
700
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.159
about mere jealousy either. Gerars theory deals with items or
701
00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:38.400
positions that spark conflict. They spark conflict because they cannot
702
00:36:38.440 --> 00:36:43.280
be shared peacefully. This could include a lover. This could
703
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:46.960
include food, This can include weapons. This can include prime
704
00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:48.880
dwelling sites like my house is on the hill.
705
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:51.320
I can I can be the only one that lives
706
00:36:51.320 --> 00:36:52.159
at the top of the hill.
707
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:55.119
So now everybody you know down below is like, ah,
708
00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:57.679
we should have the house on the hill, right, And
709
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:02.320
it's this kind of common desire has taken place because
710
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:05.360
it is the thing, and everybody knows it is the thing.
711
00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:08.920
And so you know, when you start trying to apply
712
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:12.199
it to things like food or there's other things that
713
00:37:12.199 --> 00:37:15.000
could be motivating your action, not you may actually have
714
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:17.000
an internal desire. I believe that you can have an
715
00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:21.280
internal desire. Strict Girardi and say you can't. But let's
716
00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:24.280
let's be honest here. But even ren Ae Girard himself said,
717
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:26.840
this wasn't about your taste and food. This was about
718
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:29.960
the things that that couldn't be shared they couldn't be split.
719
00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:34.360
Okay, yes, so taboos spring up.
720
00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:37.880
The reason taboos exist, according to Girard, is because in
721
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.920
a past rival or a conflict, these are the things
722
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:43.639
that disturbed the piece. These were the things that caused
723
00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:47.800
a break. So we gain certain social rules about how
724
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:49.679
we're going to interact with each other that we can't
725
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:52.480
always explain. And there's always a generation or someone who
726
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:55.199
shows up wanting to re challenge the rule, unaware that
727
00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:58.159
in a previous instance this led to a murder. And
728
00:37:58.199 --> 00:37:59.960
everybody else has kind of forgotten the story to two,
729
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:03.159
but they just know it's wrong, right, and they say, well, no,
730
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:06.559
you can't sleep with your sister, it's dangerous whatever, and
731
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:09.760
they've kind of forgotten what the reasons for all that is, right,
732
00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:11.840
But at some point in time, one of the things
733
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:14.519
that happened is it led to a murder and the
734
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:16.320
whole and everybody got caught up in it, and they're like,
735
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:18.239
we don't want this to happen again. So one of
736
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:19.519
the things we're gonna do to prevent it is we're
737
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:21.840
gonna have a taboo. This is I'm still strictly in
738
00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:24.840
Gerard's land here, yep. But the other thing I want
739
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:27.960
to say about this before we move on, is that
740
00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:34.480
markets allow us to give us a safety valve if
741
00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:37.000
a if the things that we talked about were things
742
00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:40.920
that couldn't be shared, but things can be mass produced
743
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:43.960
and sold. And so if you have a nice black
744
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:45.719
shirt and I say, you know, I would like a
745
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:49.239
nice black shirt too, I can go get your black shirt,
746
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:52.039
right or I could probably get one as good or
747
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:55.960
better than you and satisfy that need. And all I
748
00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:58.760
got to do is pay a few dollars to make
749
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:03.480
that happen. It's relatively easy, it can be easily solved.
750
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:07.199
But now if I want your wife, that's a completely
751
00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:12.440
different problem, right, Yeah, yeah, So that's where Gerard's dealing.
752
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:15.639
And if you're going to consider the scapegoat, you've got
753
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:16.599
to be aware of that fact.
754
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:18.719
And by the way, for anyone who wants to know,
755
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:22.760
great movie on this in Decent Proposal is Gerardian from
756
00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:25.800
beginning to end, and it's a pretty good movie too.
757
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:27.920
But it'll show you how this works in real life
758
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:29.599
and you won't have to experience it for yourself, and
759
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:33.400
maybe you'll learn something. Right, So all of this is
760
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:35.920
just set up for what we want to talk about now,
761
00:39:35.960 --> 00:39:38.440
which is restoration and vengeance. And this is where it
762
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:40.239
kind of comes home to Fauci and all the other
763
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:43.320
news of the day. Right that the reason we're doing
764
00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:48.360
this show that's evergreen anyhow, So let's apply the concepts.
765
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:51.400
So right off the bat, two questions, are you seeking
766
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:55.119
peace or stoking violence? And are you taking a rooting
767
00:39:55.159 --> 00:39:58.199
interest in the outcome of the trial? So I mentioned
768
00:39:58.280 --> 00:40:00.920
in the episode that we've discussed several times here today
769
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:05.280
about Fauci, that I talked about the officer who knelt
770
00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:10.719
on a black man's neck, George Floyd, and why justice
771
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:16.320
was still necessary in that case. But I'm repeatedly confronted
772
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:18.840
with stories like this and literally dozens of others.
773
00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:20.760
I was just in an event in May.
774
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:27.840
Where activity took place in the room by a mob
775
00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:33.840
who was highly justified. The person who was not innocent.
776
00:40:33.880 --> 00:40:37.440
They were purposely There was a person purposely attempting to
777
00:40:37.559 --> 00:40:43.280
provoke was in an accident. It was intentional, and if
778
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:45.719
it had gotten really ugly, this would have satisfied this
779
00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:49.679
individual even more. The people who were at this event
780
00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:52.079
pro and who watched the show will probably know exactly
781
00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:56.199
what event I'm talking about. The ugliness on the response
782
00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:58.719
of the people who were by the way taking the
783
00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:06.280
bait bothered me more, and this made me unique. In fact,
784
00:41:06.280 --> 00:41:08.239
there were people who are angry with me about this
785
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:13.360
made me unique because and I stand alone unique. I
786
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:15.199
wasn't alone by the way, or someone sitting right next
787
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:17.960
to me who completely agreed. I couldn't stand the hate
788
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:21.719
and the acrimony that had crept into the room. So
789
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:24.599
I want to be clear, this person wasn't innocent. They
790
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:27.280
were trying to get the reaction they were getting. They
791
00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:29.679
would have liked even more reaction than they were getting,
792
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:35.639
but the level of reaction was so ugly, and the
793
00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:38.320
solution was so obvious to me.
794
00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:46.239
There was probably more than one solution. One of the
795
00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:46.599
things that.
796
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:48.559
Happens is people start to after they get into a fight,
797
00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:50.679
their egos get engaged and they're like, no, no, I
798
00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:55.800
got a win now, Like they're completely sold out to
799
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.639
the mob at this point, and they want to go along.
800
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:01.400
And you definitely don't want to counter the mob because
801
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:06.159
the mob's dangerous, groups of angry people dangerous to counter them.
802
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:08.559
So other people get swept up into the whole thing.
803
00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:13.239
Were they seeking peace or stoking violence? I don't believe
804
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:17.639
they were seeking peace. No, I don't think it's right
805
00:42:17.960 --> 00:42:22.559
when someone's found guilty of something to be like, oh yeah, no,
806
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:27.079
I don't. There's a name for this the Germans have.
807
00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:28.800
We don't have it. We had to borrow their word.
808
00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:32.360
It's called schadenfreud, which is celebrating the fall or the
809
00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:36.400
destruction of another person. I wrote the following thing down
810
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:40.239
and it was out. It was before I wrote these
811
00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:42.719
four points out and we sat down to have this show.
812
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:45.639
This was my very first stab at this and I
813
00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:47.719
mean this more to you Bill personally, but I want
814
00:42:47.719 --> 00:42:48.639
to share it with everyone.
815
00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:52.039
Okay, this is me thinking after we did that show.
816
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:57.039
Escapegoat would be someone who is non culpable, partially or
817
00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:00.280
fully innocent, even a martyr, and the reason they're being
818
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:03.119
offered up for sacrifice is to resolve a conflict of
819
00:43:03.159 --> 00:43:08.039
coveting rivals. Indeed, one rival at least initially wants an
820
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:11.199
object the other has, though now they may be assessing
821
00:43:11.239 --> 00:43:14.880
over the rival party themselves, wishing just for their downfall
822
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:18.880
and destruction. But in this case, Fauci is not innocent,
823
00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:21.280
and our critique of him is not about wanting any object.
824
00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:25.440
He possesses, let alone hoping for his downfall or destruction.
825
00:43:26.599 --> 00:43:29.480
This is about justice to arrive at truth, which is
826
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:34.559
a necessary predicate for reconciliation. Here's the key sentence. Here's
827
00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:36.880
the thing I haven't said up till now. I would
828
00:43:36.920 --> 00:43:40.000
be willing to root for a pardon were he willing
829
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:47.079
to sincerely and very compellingly come clean, you see, because
830
00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:50.280
if he did that, we got the truth. And right
831
00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:53.440
now there are people defending him because he is resisting
832
00:43:54.440 --> 00:43:58.000
the truth, and there's a lot of people who think
833
00:43:58.039 --> 00:44:03.079
he's being persecuted because he is refusing to go along
834
00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:08.039
with the truth. And we have to get to the truth. Remember,
835
00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:11.800
the truth is what matters, and reconciliation isn't achievable without
836
00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:15.800
discovery of it. And so what he's doing is allowing
837
00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:18.880
is drawing a mob of his own to counter the
838
00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:21.519
mob that he believes he's under attack from. Is he
839
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:23.679
under attack? Is that your next question, because I hope
840
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:26.119
it is. Is he under attack? I have to say
841
00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:28.559
to you. Rand Paul has put out a variety of
842
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:32.000
communications over the years, but especially in the days leading
843
00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:34.639
up to the hearing. He puts social media stuff out
844
00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:39.360
that I found abhorrent because he basically was taking a
845
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:40.119
rooting interest.
846
00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:40.360
Here.
847
00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:42.599
We're gonna bring him down, We're gonna put him behind bars,
848
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:44.679
We're gonna ask him the question that's going to capture
849
00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:49.320
him or cause him to fall into perjury. Listen, it
850
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:52.320
might have been the right strategy, but I certainly wasn't
851
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:53.880
going to celebrate it and put a picture of a
852
00:44:53.880 --> 00:44:55.840
guy on his bed with his book open and his
853
00:44:55.880 --> 00:44:59.360
feet in the air, you know, with rouge on his cheeks.
854
00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:01.519
You know, I wasn't going to do that to him,
855
00:45:01.639 --> 00:45:04.119
which he did. I wasn't going to celebrate. We're going
856
00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:07.800
to get him, no, and that's how politics works. Everybody
857
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:11.320
gets on the team and starts rooting. But I wish
858
00:45:11.719 --> 00:45:15.039
I wish we could actually get to the truth without
859
00:45:15.079 --> 00:45:17.000
having to go through all this. I wish he would
860
00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:19.320
just stand up and say, here's what I did. By
861
00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:23.039
the way, the evidence is overwhelming, and I'm going to
862
00:45:23.079 --> 00:45:25.119
come completely clean. And I'm going to come complete. When
863
00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:28.599
I say compellingly, I mean so clean that no one
864
00:45:29.079 --> 00:45:32.199
anyone who is still quote unquote defending me and proclaiming
865
00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:34.800
my innocence would be standing on an island by themselves.
866
00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:38.199
Because even I've abandoned them.
867
00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:40.519
So this is one of the great lessons that we
868
00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:42.480
have yet to learn, which is how powerful the truth
869
00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:45.639
really is. Yes, and I think you've just illustrated how
870
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:51.079
in Fauci's case the truth is his trump card.
871
00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:55.519
Yes, And I hate getting specific here because I want
872
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:57.800
this to be general and apply for all times.
873
00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:00.960
Picking the example because no, no, no, no, I did too.
874
00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:02.559
I did too, because you know what.
875
00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:05.239
Your argument is compelling, Jim, I see your point now,
876
00:46:05.239 --> 00:46:09.119
and calling Fauci the potential scapegoat for all of a
877
00:46:09.159 --> 00:46:13.280
whole entire last episode my bad man, because no, he
878
00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:15.039
doesn't get bad, he doesn't fit.
879
00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:16.960
We're all learning and walking here.
880
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:19.199
I'm not ripe yet either, and I'm going to.
881
00:46:19.239 --> 00:46:22.440
Be thinking about your definition and Day's day, Brisbane's definition
882
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:26.440
and sin later as well. But this is what we're
883
00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:28.800
doing here. We're an exploration. In fact, I don't have
884
00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:30.559
all the right answers. That's part of the reason I
885
00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:33.480
like your ard so much is I find out that, gee,
886
00:46:33.800 --> 00:46:36.639
you know, I keep thinking I'm justified in my anger
887
00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:41.239
when I'm not right. And so that's the issue here,
888
00:46:41.639 --> 00:46:45.239
And it comes down to this bill, are you seeking
889
00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:46.800
peace or stoking violence?
890
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:48.199
Which one do you seek