Hannah Chapman, CFP (00:00.849)
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Expansive CEO podcast. I'm your host, Hannah Chapman, and my beautiful co-host Lauren Ammon is here with us. Hi, Lauren.
Lauren Ammon (00:11.746)
Hi friends, hi Hannah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (00:13.351)
Hi, we are in a the we're in a Libra phase, right? So we're taught we're like, we talked about this last week. We're kind of going with the collective Mercury energy right now of like what are we here to talk about? What's the thing that's, you know, in the collective right now, the the topics where the juice is. And so right now we're talking about money between people.
Which if you've been listening to the podcast for any amount of time, we talk about this a lot anyway, because it's part of it's like the root of right our work. a lot of a lot of times we talk about your money relationship with yourself and within yourself, and that's really important too. so this is gonna we are gonna like shine the light more that lens of money between people, reciprocity, fairness, partnership.
Lauren Ammon (00:50.958)
Okay.
Lauren Ammon (00:58.03)
Yep.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (01:12.101)
Let's what else to say. What power, fairness, receiving, or reciprocity dynamic is underneath the relationship. So yeah, we're gonna we're gonna talk about some of that and and how that touches your your partnerships. you know, your romantic partner, you're if you're married or partnered, what does that look like between people? a business partner, you know, all of that comes up. Even
Lauren Ammon (01:19.116)
Mm.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (01:40.633)
We talked about this on Investment Friday. If you've never heard the Investment Friday podcast, you can go find that on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen. and I talked with my chief investment officer at X Squared, Brad Haynes. We talked about this in relation to, you know, really generational questions, like money between generations, money between, you know, children and parents. And that's a huge
topic that's been coming up lately with regard to inheritance, with regard to, you know, how your parents saw money, how your grandparents saw money, how you see money, what it means to you, and what it means to actually have like what that experience of prosperity means between, you know, we've got depression era, silent gen, we've got baby boomers, we've got Gen X, we've got elder millennials versus
younger millennials actually. You know, like we have a pretty big split. Lauren and I are both geriatric millennials. Thank you. but millennials go all the way to
Lauren Ammon (02:44.172)
Yeah, to like millennials.
Lauren Ammon (02:50.412)
Ninety six, ninety eight, something like that?
Hannah Chapman, CFP (02:52.09)
Something like that. Yeah. And the younger side of the millennial generation, actually even has a a different experience than we do being born in the, you know, early 80s. and then Gen Z and Gen Alpha, right? Like graduating, growing up in a very different experience as well. So like money between people, money between family systems. we're gonna be talking about this for a good couple of weeks here. So it's a great topic.
Lauren Ammon (03:18.478)
Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (03:21.59)
What what was coming up for you for that? What was the thing that you were like, okay, wait, let's talk about this?
Lauren Ammon (03:28.962)
Well well, first and foremost, I I d I correct me when I s may say this very ignorant like Libra carries a lot of weight for me, even though I'm an Aries moon, Aries sun, like I have a lot in Libra, like in my sixth house. So it's like Libra feels like r really resonant in me. And this idea of, you know, kind of money between people is yes, balancing the skills and and and I think
Hannah Chapman, CFP (03:42.988)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (03:53.914)
Balancing the scales, literally.
Lauren Ammon (03:58.988)
What's coming actually up in this moment is that, you know, and I say this to my kids all the time is fair does not mean equal. And you know, I use that a lot, you know, as a parent because I'm like, you two are two different people. So I'm a different parent to each of you. That's one thing. But the idea of particularly, you know, in our work with couples, is this interesting dynamic that we that you intentionally built into the process is that they both.
fill out what we call the prosperity vision workbook as a part of the process. And the instruction is you fill this out separately. And then we come together intentionally as a group and discuss it. And the thing that always comes up is that the the couples that we've worked with, they're, they're relatively pretty much on the same page. But the way that it manifests, the way that, you know, if they both say freedom, freedom and money can mean very different things to each of them.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (04:44.358)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Ammon (04:54.485)
Or you know, choice or prosperity or time or presence or you know, whatever word they use, because we actually ask them to say what is the one word that comes up when you think about money. And it's always so interesting to see how they translate so differently. And then, as part of the process, how we facilitate both of them being able to meet their goals, see their goals, feel feel their goals, and
As they're working through that, I'm gonna see I'm gonna use the word manipulate, manipulate their relationship with money, but I mean manipulate in terms of shift, transform, mold, intentionally shift their relationship with money. And and and I think I think the idea of money between people is just like we can't talk enough about it.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (05:46.767)
Yeah. Yeah. No, it it it's I want to give an example from the wild. that's really interesting. yes, we will come back to the prosperity vision workbook because it's really it's like you said, it's a very intentional part of the process that I I created years ago. and have really like dialed in and honed in over time and like, you know, so yeah, that's a very important piece of the process. And
You know, when we talk about money stories, especially an expansive CEO, we talk a ton about money stories. and if you go to Substack, you can go see that and see the whole journey of the money story journey. that helps you heal your relationship with money within yourself, which then allows you to write, have a little bit more grace, see other people's money stories come up. you'll just you'll start to be aware and you'll see them and hear them everywhere once you are aware. It's it's very fascinating.
so little a little story I want to tell from this weekend. Excuse me. my husband he loves he loves Reddit. So he is he'll be on Reddit and like he has different things that he he likes to look at. One of the things, you know, that came pops up on if you've ever been on Reddit, like there's like a front page, I think it's called the front page. You know, and so lots of different things will come up on that.
It's just like a feed of, you know, articles and people asking questions and forum questions and things like that. And one came up on like the personal finance subreddit. And it was a woman asking for advice, asking for help from the personal finance subreddit, which is notoriously anti financial advisor, by the way. It's very, it's super, it's a little toxic in there. but
Lauren Ammon (07:35.085)
Shocking.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (07:41.177)
She shared in this prompt in this question that, you know, she was having a really hard time because her husband really wanted, was like ready to buy a house. And she grew up very poor. And as she's explaining her situation, she grew up with nothing. It was very poor, very lots of scarcity. she now has a great job. Her husband has a great job. they have a million dollars in savings.
they have plenty of money, like in in just like cash savings. They have saved a lot of money. and plenty of plenty of income, right, to support a mortgage. Like financially, there's no reason to not buy a house. But she is terrified of spending that money. Cause it's there now, right? And and her whole life was scarcity and her whole growing up, like there wasn't enough.
And now it feels like, I have this pile of money and I I don't want to jeopardize that. Even though the money is still coming in. They have great incomes. They've, you know, been through hard things before and risen to the occasion. And and so my husband like replied to this comment because he hears me talk about it all the time, right? And or you know, replies and
Set yeah, he I he without selling. I said, Hey, you need you need to come sell for me. You're really good. He's a great salesman. it's not what he does professionally, but he you know, he shared like, hey, this is you know, this is something that a lot of people deal with. he just had some really, really good wisdom to share and was like, Hey, I'd like this is something.
If you if you w want to know someone who literally helps people through this process in in this way, you know, just let me know. I'll send you our information. but he was like, Yeah, he he was just surprised to see that out in the wild. And I'm like, Yeah, like it's it's interesting, right? Like to once you know, once once your eyes are open to the fact that these money stories are everywhere and everyone has something.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (10:05.486)
Whether they had a great experience growing up or a really hard experience growing up as regarding like, did you have enough money or not? You can still have so many money stories that come up. And so part of kind of like bringing it back to the prosperity vision workbook, part of what we see then is, yeah, what what were those stories? Do we have competing stories? Are you kind of are you in alignment now?
But there are money stories underneath that are then affecting, you know, how you make each make decisions. And I think we saw one of our other recent couples, they had
They had very different money stories growing up. And you know, the husband, yeah, was like, and we didn't talk about it. We didn't have enough, but we also didn't talk about it. And now it's like it doesn't even feel like it's real. So I see these numbers and these gro charts and graphs and it like doesn't feel real to me.
Lauren Ammon (10:56.205)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (11:13.786)
And that was again, it's like, okay, that's good. We need to know that information. So we so that like I know how to guide you going forward and what this what this means. Does it mean there's no fear? Not necessarily.
Right. It might feel that way. It feels like disassociation, actually, is what it tends to feel like. Right. It's like I'm s I am so disconnected from the experience of what money is supposed to feel like. It felt so unsafe for so long that I have disconnected myself from it so as not to allow myself to be hurt by it again. Is what comes up for me.
Lauren Ammon (12:00.673)
Yeah, I'm you're as you're as you're talking, I'm sitting here like it really is just an unbelievable complicated web of relationships inside of relationships tied to money.
And how much an unknown or unprocessed relationship with money can affect your human relationship and how much stress exists and how much dysregulation is happening on any given day at any given moment between two people and they're completely unaware of it.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (12:33.274)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (12:51.386)
Well, and even if they are, this is the other piece, is that and we talk about this too, right? Awareness, acceptance, aligned action. You can be so aware. We hear about this in therapy speak too, right? It's like we can have so much self-awareness, but if we don't have the willingness to like accept it and then take a new action, we just stay stuck. You just stay stuck in the awareness. So, like the Reddit thread, right? It's like this woman is aware.
That her financial situation is not the same as it was when she was growing up.
Fully aware, fully get it. And yet, right. It's just have she wouldn't be reaching out for help if she wasn't trying to like find a way, right? So they're like absolutely asking the question is is the first step to like, okay, what do I do? How do I, how do I get through this? but you know, think about, or even maybe this is you listening, right? Like having that thought of I know that my relationship with money, something is messed up here.
It doesn't feel right. Something feels like I should be able off. I should be able to make these decisions. I like I see the discrepancy and I'm still stuck. That's the spot where it's like, okay, we need to peel back the layers, take a look under the hood, do like subconsciously what's what's in there.
And work with that material in in the way that will actually help you to what comes up is like is emotionally process. It's like that's unprocessed emotion.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (14:42.722)
that we're getting stuck in thinking it's just about data.
Lauren Ammon (14:47.169)
Yeah. And you know what's really funny is that as you're sitting here talking about the woman on Reddit, I'm like, God, I would love to see her human design.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (14:53.774)
Right? Always.
Lauren Ammon (14:55.509)
Right, right. Like, I can just feel, you know, I can feel either conditioning, you know, from certain areas or it's overused definition as I like to call it. It's like you you just lean so hard into your definition that it's like I don't even know how to get out of it. So for instance, I'll I'll give an example, right? So when I hear a story like that, my immediate goes to, well, do they have an open splenic center? So listener, if you're if you're
Hannah Chapman, CFP (15:20.411)
Mm.
Lauren Ammon (15:22.173)
Looking at your own chart, it's the sideways triangle to the left of your chart. If that's colored in, you have a defined spleen, which means you have consistent and reliable access to your own internal sense of safe safety, healthy safety, health, and security. And if it's wide open, the conditioning is I don't know how to let go or I'm hanging on to something that isn't safe. Like I'm hanging on to it for a s for a sense of comfort, a sense of security.
And so when I hear stories like that, I automatically go to the conditioning of an open open splenic center, undefined splenic center up. I'm just I'm hanging on because I it's the only sense of security and comfort that I know, or it's overused definition. So you could say that as somebody like me who has every gate of her spleen defined some more than once in like the fear of feeling unsafe.
Right. So I've gotta hold on to this money because it's the only form of protection I know because I didn't know it growing up. So that's why kind of the when you think about your own human design or anybody's human design, like the spectrum is wide. And as we always kind of say, like it always kind of meets in the middle if you're the extreme, right? Or or if you're experiencing the street extreme. And I and I think about it that way of like, and we've talked about.
This on this podcast is the idea that money is of control and and power and and security, right? I mean, you can you could lump security into that of like, well, if I have it, I gotta hold on to it. Otherwise, I won't have the freedom. I won't have the control. I won't have the power. I won't have the security. And it's just so incredibly interesting that the more and more couples or or individuals that we work with, it doesn't matter the background that you came from.
Everyone has a money story that is
Lauren Ammon (17:23.073)
Running under the surface, you know, percolating through, or it's percolating, and then it's popping up in different scenarios. And oftentimes it is in relation to other people. And it doesn't have to be your partner. It can be your kids. It can be your business partner. It can be your friends. It can be your siblings, right? You can have two siblings grow up in the same household and have completely different.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (17:40.726)
yeah.
Lauren Ammon (17:53.845)
Money stories.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (17:55.44)
Mm.
Lauren Ammon (17:56.907)
And then as you grow up and mature with one another, you can start to see those play out and like how you handle shared gifts, or I'm just, you know, making up a scenario in that respect. But it when you start paying attention, the money stories that you have, yeah, I'm gonna say always, always interact in that whatever relationship you have with other people. And this idea of the shared
Yeah yeah. The the shared money perception between partners and whatever partner you want to talk.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (18:35.994)
Well, yeah. And so you alluded to this when you started, when you talked about the Prosperity Vision workbook. in the first place is that, you know, I very intentionally ask people to fill it out separately. If if a if we have a couple come in, I want no and don't look at each other's answers, right? Don't do it together. Eyes on your own paper. Right. Yeah. because
Lauren Ammon (18:57.697)
Put your little folders up. Can't Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (19:07.106)
What I what I found over years and years of working with people is that like very often there's there's a person who is dominant in the financial. They're they're the one who handles the stuff. and a lot of times they're also the one directing like what are the quote unquote goals.
And in a lot of relationships, you know, let's let's say like in our parents' generation, if you had, you know, a mom that stayed at home, because that was more often the case, right? If you had a stay-at-home parent, it was usually your mom. so then it was all about, you know, when is the dad gonna retire? When is the husband gonna retire? And so like life is just like waiting, basically, and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting. And so the stress of
being the one working versus being the one waiting. All of a sudden, you know, like if you don't, if you leave that conversation unexamined, which is what happened all the time, by the time, you know, the in these scenarios when the husband would retire finally, they didn't have a shared goal. They didn't have an actual shared vision of what does life actually look like? What how are we going to do
life together now that, you know, suddenly now we're both home all the time and we don't have goals together. And so it divorce, you know, there there's this whole wave that we were calling gray divorce, you know, probably like 10, 15 years ago. people realizing, we actually don't want to we don't like each other. And we don't want to be together. like right. I mean, my own parents, you know, in that boat.
as well and it was like, well, yeah. Cause you didn't you weren't working towards any shared goal, really, truly. You were working toward one person's goal, one person's vision of what life could be like.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (21:21.782)
And that it if it's not collaborative, if both parties, if everyone involved doesn't have like their full voice in the conversation, then it and ahead of time, not like, hey, I want to retire next year, let's figure it out now. It's like, no, when we do this work years ahead of time, you get the chance to get to know each other again.
And you get the chance to be like, okay, that's what that's what's important to you. Cool. Awesome. I can get on board with that. And then we see it from the other partner. that's what's important to you. Cool. We can also get on board with that. Are they the same? Not always. Sometimes we have very different ideas. And that's where, like that tension of you don't know me, you don't see me, you don't listen to me.
from either side, right? Like it's well, yeah. If you didn't ever talk about it, if you didn't ever create the space to share, like this is what life, like my my best life would feel like. What would feel so awesome to me. And this is what my best life would feel like. And this would feel so awesome to me. And here's where they here are the overlap, here is the Venn diagram, right? Here is where it overlaps. It overlaps a lot.
But then we also have these other areas that are just ours. You know, just just yours and just yours.
And those to me, from the the planning perspective and from the again, seeing so many couples go through this, those pieces that like what is it what is just for you for spouse A and what is just for you for spouse B, those are actually some of the most important aspects. Because within, you know, we're talking about money between people.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (23:21.336)
it it's not it it's not all ours. If everything is lumped into ours one hundred percent, someone is getting squashed and no one is actually getting what ev you know what they truly want.
Lauren Ammon (23:36.683)
Right. I would even venture to guess both of them are getting squashed. In some way, shape, or form. And and I think that's the interesting lean that I now have on relationship. It's like you don't you don't have to do it. Like you don't have to do everything together. One. Two, it's so im I I almost can't I'm you know, I'm just in a mood today. I'm just gonna, you know, well, my opinions are gonna come out as like.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (23:40.142)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren Ammon (24:05.204)
There it is never too early to have these kinds of conversations in a relationship. And I think so now more than ever in our current society, where it's like it's this weird dynamic that everybody yearns and desires for this deep connection. And yet the way that the system is set up is that we're actually constantly being pulled away from.
The deep connection because everyone, well, God. Well, if I see something else out there, is that going to be better than over there? Is it grass greener here? Is it there? And, you know, like modern dating is just, you know, jumping from pasture to pasture to be like, well, which one is better? But then, you know, behind the scenes, we're all craving deep connection. And it's kind of like, well, sometimes why don't you just put the
F and phone down and and the options down. Like stop treating it like Netflix and what the hell do I watch? And just being like, hey, I'm gonna pick this one thing and I'm gonna go all in until I find that it's probably it may I'm gonna go all in until something tells me maybe it isn't the right choice. But I don't think it's ever too early to have these conversations. And at least just to open it up.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (25:25.242)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Lauren Ammon (25:27.104)
You know, and if some someone isn't mature enough to handle it, be Deuces, all right, see ya. Yeah, right. I mean, you know, i what is the you know believe what they're telling you and showing you versus the potential you have in your mind of what it could be.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (25:31.162)
Right. Also good to know.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (25:39.302)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (25:45.519)
Yes. Yeah. And that's I mean, that's the other that's the other aspect of like you said, like doing this work sooner rather than later. and it, you know, if it is approaching later and you feel like you're getting to it a little bit like, we should probably have done this before, it's it's also it's never too late. It's never too late to make this transition into like understanding.
Lauren Ammon (26:08.193)
Yes.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (26:14.82)
your your money stories, your partner's money stories, what you can accomplish together. Like it's never too late to get started, but it is absolutely, absolutely so beneficial to do this as soon as, as soon as you have, I mean, even if like as as you have a good job, as you have that money that you can start directing it somewhere, right? Like that's as soon as possible, that's as soon as possible.
Lauren Ammon (26:44.236)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (26:45.188)
Right. And that's great. It's great to have those conversations and to have them early and to have them often. but let's say, you know, you're in in your late thirties, early to mid forties, you know, anywhere in there. If you haven't had these conversations with your partner yet, and your kids are still, you know, like my kids are eleven, thirteen, fifteen. yeah, I have people in our age group.
We have a lot of friends who have much younger kids. Start a little later, right? Yeah. So, so they have you know, might have little ones. having these conversations, not just about like what do we want retirement to look and feel like? Yes, that's important. That's one of our questions in the V Prosperity Division workbook, you know. But even that is not like, what do you want to do in retirement? It's like, what is
Lauren Ammon (27:16.704)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (27:42.095)
What does retirement, the word, even sound like to you? What does that mean to you? and do you like, do you even resonate with it as a concept or does something else sound better to you? Right. And that's that gives us a lot of information. Right? If you have one partner who's like, yeah, I want to just stop working and then travel the world and just be have complete freedom, never have to do anything.
Lauren Ammon (27:45.174)
Yes.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (28:10.062)
And I want someone who can do that with me. And then their other partner is like, I find immense purpose in what I do. And I don't ever want to stop. And I want to be able to for income not to matter. Like if I could give away my time doing this, this thing that I do, this thing helping people that matters so much to me.
I would do that for free. Right. There there are people who are very, very immersed in purpose in that way.
Right. Like maybe that's something that you wanna know about. You wanna talk about that when you're forty five, not when you're sixty and like, Okay, well now we don't have anything in common.
And now our retire both of our retirements are gonna be cut in half.
So you actually don't get to retire, by the way. Right. Cause we're gonna get a divorce and now everyone is just a little bit worse off in the financial realm. That's definitely not always the case. but from a again, from a financial standpoint, it can be a real shock.
Lauren Ammon (29:06.644)
Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (29:23.056)
To, you know, have this vision of, well, I thought we would travel the world together. And now you have to be here for meetings and for clients. And that's not what I wanted. And the p other partners like, well, I didn't I I don't want to be traveling the world full time. yeah, I wanna go on a couple of vacations per year, but I don't wanna I don't wanna, you know, live abroad for six months.
I wanna be here. I want to be close to the kids or you know, I wanna be close to my friends or you know, it's it doesn't sound like it's about money.
And it's not necessarily, but the money conversation opens the box. It opens the box to all of those topics, all of those feelings, all of those like hopes and dreams.
It allows us to have that conversation in
Hannah Chapman, CFP (30:30.871)
Mm, how do I want to say this? At least at least with us, like it's in a safe container.
Lauren Ammon (30:40.18)
Yeah, when you're talking it's it's seemingly not about money, but money is always at the root of, well, I want to I want to have enough in order to be able to travel the world. And the other's kinda like, well, I want to have enough so I don't necessarily feel like I ever have to you know, I'm it's more about purpose versus you know, purpose after I've made enough in order to be able to facilitate that life. And so yeah, I mean, money is somewhere always at the root of the conversation.
And what also made me chuckle as you were talking is, you know, before we got on air, we talked about generationally, you know, the older Gen X, well, maybe not so much Gen X, maybe a little less Gen X than let's say some of the older millennials and even younger millennials, Gen Z and now Gen Alpha. Compare it to boomers, boomers who were who tended to be, and always, you know, generalizations here tended to be more the about the things like.
saving but when they were spending money it was about the things. Whereas, you know, more more elder millennials as geriatrics and and younger tend to be more about the experience. But what made me chuckle is that, you know, most of our clients are give or take within our age range, right? And it's so funny how many of them are also like, yeah, I don't necessarily just
Retire doesn't mean do nothing. Retire means I still give my energy to something to, you know, maximizing, you know, just my learning or my education or just supporting others or being of service to people. You know, it's just so funny to me that that we as generations want the experiences, but I think our conditioning is so deep.
That sometimes we feel like we can't just give it up. We gotta keep giving just a little bit, you know, we gotta use it for something. and I just I I just find that, you know, I I don't know that I've ever thought about that before. I th that it just came up right as we were talking, and I just think, hmm. Again, it adds another layer of complexity, not just in our own money stories, but then the money how how the money that we have translates to the partnerships that we have.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (32:42.01)
Yeah, just relax.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (33:12.372)
Mm. Yeah, that's I mean
I see that that's all the time I see that as well. and have, you know, clients who
Hannah Chapman, CFP (33:27.236)
literally you know, retire from their main profession and the next Monday start a new job. Right? Like retire not yet. Right? 'Cause there's there is there is like a fear of
I don't know if I can stop.
Doesn't feel safe. And so that, you know, from that perspective, like, what do I do with that? Okay, well, we take it slow. Yes. Like, okay, so you're making less. Are you also working less? Does it feel more sustainable? Does it feel better? Because you were going, you know, 100 miles an hour before. Are are you down to 60? Does it feel more manageable? Right. And then next year, like, we'll give that a year. And then
Are you ready to let a little more go? Yes. It looks okay. It looks safe. You know, like there's
Just interesting because that that literally is a client situation. right this moment of yeah, there's you know, what is the money fine? Yeah, it'll be fine. But you know, that sense of like again, zero one hundred to down to you know, full stop didn't feel good either. but from that from that generational lens, and again, we talked on investment Friday, we talked a little bit more about that.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (34:57.572)
Boomers, you know, a lot of boomers were raised by people who went through the depression. And so, you know, my that was my grandparents. my my mom's mom was the oldest of nine. Oldest of nine, I believe. and she was a teenager during the depression and did a lot of the caring, right? For and helping and
Her father had passed away. So it was her mom was yeah, it was her and her mom, right? Taking care of everything. And, you know, she even when she had money, she established a good career, and worked her whole life and she worked for Motorola, so she had a pension, because she worked for Motorola when they had a pension, you know, all of those things. And then my my grandpa worked for Honeywell and had a pension through them and
had their social security, all that. And even still, like it was it was just so hard for her to to really like spend money. And so my mom being she's like on the younger end of the boomers, you know, the it's like kind of both. Like the the stuff matters to her, but she's also still very like careful and frugal.
in some ways and very good at stretching every you know food and different things like she's she's amazing in in a lot of ways. My printer is over there making all kinds of noise. Shush shush printer in case you're hearing that. okay good. but there has been, you know, I would say even with my my husband's parents also also boomers.
Lauren Ammon (36:39.817)
No, no, I think.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (36:51.78)
On the younger, mid to younger side of the boomer generation, like things were very important for a long time. And for me and my husband and his siblings, and I would say even my my brothers, right? For us, even when our kids were little, it like this piece of like please stop getting our kids stuff. It's too much stuff. We have too much stuff. Can can we please have experiences? Like
Lauren Ammon (37:15.242)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (37:22.488)
Let's get a zoo pass. Let's let's do a museum pass. Let's like go somewhere together. Let's make a memory together. Like that, can we spend money on those things versus accumulating more more things that we have to then get rid of?
And that, you know, I also well I had a client once who was a organi kind of like an estate organizer, helping people and helping people downsize. And that is like that is a whole profession for a reason for sure. Right. Because there are like a lot of a lot of people who just have accumulated so much stuff that us, our generation, are like, God, we're gonna have to go through all of that, aren't we? And so we see that.
We know it's coming for us. Someone's gonna have to deal with all this stuff. And we don't wanna do that. We don't wanna we don't wanna have that much stuff.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (38:26.086)
And the experiences still, right? Like that's that's the thing. And I see like even with the retirement, right? It's like the travel budget. I have so many clients where like we that's a line item. Like, I wanna know that we can we can do this. And that's if I'm gonna prioritize where my money is going, that is a priority for me.
Lauren Ammon (38:38.985)
Yep. Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (38:51.546)
being able to, you know, even from like a second house perspective, that's an interesting one too. Like fewer people are wanting second homes. And instead, like, well, what if we just, you know, rent somewhere really nice once a year or even twice a year. Like it you're gonna spend less doing a really awesome rental. Even if you rented somewhere for like a month, right? Like than it costs to own and maintain a second home.
In a lot of ways. and again, because it's about the experience. One thing I had a client say, like, well then we could also go different places. We don't have to go to the same place all the time. Like, yeah.
Lauren Ammon (39:34.324)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And for people who have a lot of abstract circuitry in their chart, different places is going to be a better fit for you. And people are like, what the hell does that mean? Well, well, that's what we talk about inside. Like helping you realize, you know, what your mechanics actually, how your mechanics influence one, your relationship with money right now, or you know, the interplay of relationship with money, and two, how your mechanics want to want.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (39:34.564)
Absolutely.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (39:41.697)
Yeah.
Lauren Ammon (40:03.637)
to interact with money and want to interact with experience. and and that's, you know, that's that the the very deep level of, you know, kind of once we figured all that out is supporting you and understanding, hey, here's a way to look at it completely differently than you've ever looked at it before.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (40:23.654)
Well, I would say sometimes when we when we drop some of those nuggets for people, it's like that that moment of recognition comes up of like, well, your your design says this specifically. And so sometimes that can translate to, like you said, like, yes, I I I yearn for different experiences. I don't like doing the same thing over and over. Where if your partner is literally the opposite, like they are like, you know, routine.
Lauren Ammon (40:30.164)
Yes.
Lauren Ammon (40:49.899)
They have a lot of logic.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (40:51.372)
Right routine through and through, like I like it when I know what's coming, you know, all of those things. And then you can see each other, I see. Okay, you do need new experiences. You do need to, you know, to go different places and try different things. And you do need kind of like a a a cozy, warm nest home base that you like to go back to. Okay, cool.
Lauren Ammon (41:08.395)
Right.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (41:20.494)
Money in relationships, reciprocity, fairness, partnership, these are our themes. That's the job. Like how do we then to your point, fair isn't necessarily equal? What does fair look like? I don't know, fair in quotes, but maybe even more what does reciprocity look like?
Lauren Ammon (41:43.36)
Yeah. It what came up for me in that is like how, you know, one partner wants to go to different places, the other wants kind of the same routine. Like, how do you facilitate those two things at the same time? How do you go somewhere different where the other can maintain a portion of their routine?
And being able to to your point, again, maybe hell, I'm gonna say this. You know, we talk off the a lot of the times like compromise is a word is that you know, the connotation is that someone or maybe both of you loses right. And you know, then we we tend to talk about collaboration, but what if the word really is reciprocity?
Hannah Chapman, CFP (42:15.18)
Everyone loses a little.
Lauren Ammon (42:24.639)
You know, what if that really is the the base of it or a collaborative reciprocity, knowing that there's always going to be a back and forth, a give and take, a how do we meet each other where we are? And oftentimes that comes with going through these really deep conversations, and sometimes they are difficult. And then tying it back to who you two are as individuals.
And and to to support the recognition that when you when you have the courage, when you when you have the awareness of what's going on, you have the courage, you have the courage to accept that maybe you two want different things. But just because you want different things doesn't mean that the relationship has to change or end, or I shouldn't say end. Maybe the relationship has to change a little bit.
to be to go back to that acceptance of, hey, I see you want this thing, I want this thing. You know, we can be two separate entities inside of this beautiful relationship. We just need to kind of look at the relationship differently. And then we can take aligned action and show the reciprocity between the two of us.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (43:34.992)
Yeah. Yeah, I have a friend who talks about it in terms of agreements. Like what are your agreements? which I think is a beautiful way to to talk about that because you know, a lot of times we
We think like like to your point, like we either have to compromise and everyone has to lose something, or again, what I've what I've seen so many times, like one person is like, fine, we'll do it your way. And then either, you know, they end up getting divorced still, right? In bitter like we just we don't we don't want the same things anymore. Or even worse actually is when you, you know, like
People talk about their grandparents and how much they hate each other. You know, like how sad it's so sad. It's it really truly is heartbreaking when it's like like there's like bitterness that has turned into venom for their partner.
Lauren Ammon (44:26.921)
Yeah, yes.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (44:42.47)
And it doesn't start when you're 75, right? I mean, that started decades, decades ahead, you know, and and it could even be two perfectly, you know, normal people that just always both of them always had to lose. And they always felt like the compromise was was, you know, everyone's worse off.
Lauren Ammon (44:48.405)
Decades.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (45:12.878)
W when you live a lifetime like that.
It's like that's not it's not it's not healthy to be around. I mean, I would say like my my paternal grandparents were like that. Just not, you know.
Not it not it like not fun to be around is like such a trite way to put that, but like actually like harmful. Harmful to be around.
Lauren Ammon (45:40.489)
Yeah. Yep. Talk about conditioning.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (45:44.666)
Yeah.
Yeah. And that's it it it it's just
Hannah Chapman, CFP (45:53.403)
That's the thing that we can you can choose ahead of time, right? It's like that's what we're literally saying is like, okay, well, if the let's say the one person that needs new experiences all the time, okay, does it have to be with your spouse? Do you have, you know, friends that like that's your thing that you go, you know? I'll give an an example as a knitter and fiber person, right? Like
Would my husband go with me to like sheep and wool festivals all around the country? Probably. Would it be his favorite thing in the world? No. I mean, he would he has fun seeing me like see interesting things. But you know, if I had knitter friends who were like, yeah, let's go to Maryland Sheep and Wool Festival, that would be like the most fun thing in the universe. Right, go with them. Go go like have your experiences of being different and and like loving different things.
And then come back together and have like the what's the reciprocity? That's the like and the partnership is being able to come back and like talk about all the you know, the fun experience that you had and getting to be genuinely, it's so much more fun to be like with someone who has that sense of aliveness on both sides.
Lauren Ammon (47:14.025)
Yeah. Yeah. And and I I always go back to like, what about your kids? You know, as parents, w we all connect with our children differently. And as my dad said, and I I actually appreciate that my dad has said this before, is I have my favorites for certain things.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (47:26.874)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (47:35.683)
yeah.
Lauren Ammon (47:37.224)
You know, it's like, well, duh, of course you do. Like it and you become a parent. Cause I remember when he said that and he named, you know, I have I have two older sisters, and so he named each of us for like the favorite thing about each of us. And I was like, Yes. You know, it's so you know, I I feel like parents these days, yeah, again, I'm not gonna get on a soapbox. I'm really opinionated today. Something's in the transits going on. But like, you know, we all have to love our children equally. Yes.
Love your children equally. Absolutely. I love my children beyond belief, but I love them for very different reasons. And I love to be with them for very different reasons. And so in this idea of to your friend, do you like do you have knitter friends? Is one of your kids, you know, just using that example. Or, you know, I would probably choose my younger son more for like different eating experiences. And, you know, he'd he'd love to sit in the restaurant and
You know, wonder about how they made it or or where we're going next. And then, you know, my older son is more about movies and you know, kind of the trivia around movies and, you know, those sorts of things. And it's like, you know, d is there someone already in your home that could fulfill, you know, the various interests that you share collectively. Because oftentimes, again, I think sometimes we get so, well.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (48:53.349)
Yeah.
Lauren Ammon (49:05.119)
The family has to do it together, as as a couple have to do it together. No. You don't.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (49:11.152)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Ammon (49:12.501)
Right. I mean, I think all of us parents can deter can tell when, you know, among all of our children, one is more excited than the other when we do certain things. And it's kind of like, yeah, okay, well, then next time we'll go do what you want to do. And it reciprocity is already built in. It's just a matter of being l maybe a little bit more intentional about it and being a little bit more free about it.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (49:36.327)
I love this example because I think that's actually more tangible. That's like a really tangible. Anyone, anyone with more than one child, or I would say even parents of an only child who like their kid has friends. You can see, you can see very clearly that every kid is different. Even if they have a lot of c in common, even if they get along, right? Like you can tell that, all right, that.
That kiddo has different needs, than than this one, you know, in whatever ways. And when we do have like I have three kids, you have two, like you can see very different different things about each of them and the same. Like our our son is the one who's like
He he feels like the one that would go to us with to bougie restaurants, right? Like my husband and I love going to a good restaurant and having just like a really, really good meal. Our son is the one who can appreciate that. And he'll sit there, he'll sit there and just look like, what spices are in here? How do we do this? Right. Like it's like it's so it's so fun when he started doing that. I'm like, because most of the time they'll just like wolf their food down and just be off. where other girls are a little bit more picky.
Lauren Ammon (50:40.38)
Yeah.
Lauren Ammon (50:49.087)
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (50:55.236)
And they just are and it's fine, right? And they'll they'll appreciate a good meal here and there, but they're not the ones that are like again, like, yeah, wondering how it's made.
Yeah, and it and and we you know my son loves Star Wars. He loves space, he loves like military history, like all of those things. Do I expect my youngest daughter who is into none of those things, right? Like, do you want to go see a new Star Wars movie? Do you want to go to, you know, an Air Force history museum? No. No, she doesn't. I don't really want to either.
But my husband would love to take him, you know, like, yeah. That that's that's just a really it's a really obvious, tangible example of why are why would we force everyone to do a bunch of stuff that we don't like when you could have that special time. Right. There there are yes, there are things that we can do as a family together that are wonderful and make great memories. But then yeah, like it there's something even more special about it when you get to like.
Have one on one time, or you know, when you get to do something with one of your kids that's like special and unique to either them or to your bond together, that's really special. So extend like extending that lens out then to yourself and your partner.
Lauren Ammon (52:17.512)
Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (52:26.896)
Like what would that be like? What would that be like if you if you just honor could honor yourself and your partner in that same way?
Hannah Chapman, CFP (52:39.546)
Well, you know, that would be what's coming up for is like I'm sure that's a question that most people have never even pondered, never asked themselves, never been asked.
I I also wanted to throw in a human design piece there too, because my I've we have five, me, my husband, three kids. Every single one of us has a defined G center. So that's that's the diamond right in the middle. It's usually yellow-ish. All five of us. And so that that center says, I know who I am, I know what direction I want to go. And in its
Lauren Ammon (53:01.298)
Okay.
Lauren Ammon (53:06.086)
I love it. I love it so much.
Lauren Ammon (53:17.278)
Well well, I have a very specific direction. Whether I know what it is or not is
Hannah Chapman, CFP (53:22.66)
Well yes. And what's funny is it tends to be I know what it's not. And so if you try to like force it into a direction that it doesn't want to go, it's not fun. and my God. I have seen that play out so many times. you know, where it where it is like, can you can someone just go with the flow for just five seconds? Can we just go with the flow? But we have five
Lauren Ammon (53:26.238)
Yes.
Lauren Ammon (53:48.299)
Only your oldest daughter, I think. I think I think only she technically can go with her own flow. And and the rest of you just fall into that flow.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (53:58.145)
Right.
Right. Yes. Yeah. That comes up too. But it's you know, for me as a parent to embrace that they are all very much individuals. Even not not that like you, Lauren, with a with a completely open G, completely open, undefined.
Lauren Ammon (54:18.906)
No, just I one one activated gate, yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (54:21.84)
That's right. So undefined G doesn't mean you're not an individual.
But you are you do have the ability to go with the flow a little better.
Lauren Ammon (54:31.698)
Yeah. I'm I'm more malleable when it comes to direction. Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (54:35.234)
Yes. My my house is full of not malleables. and to you know, just like to embrace that rather than fight against it all the time.
Fighting against it sucks and it's like it just leads to sad tears.
Lauren Ammon (54:52.403)
Lauren Ammon (54:56.434)
Yeah. You know, and I have the opposite. The only my oldest son is the only one in our family of four who has a defined G through the channel of rhythm and the design of being in the flow. And in understanding those mechanics, well, first of all, he compromises his brother. His brother I can't remember. I think his brother has gate 15. and so I can see, like now that I know this about them, I can see where the younger ones like.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (55:07.174)
Mm.
Lauren Ammon (55:27.21)
just gonna no it's not your flow well no it is his flow it's your older brother's flow and we all have to
Work within it. And you know, when my son is in the house, if it's his flow, it's his flow. And I don't fight it. And I don't, I don't, I don't want any parent not to be like, I'm just like, you can do whatever you want. That's not what I mean by if you know me as a parent, that is not at all what I mean. It's more of I recognize he owns that energetically. So it only makes my life more miserable when I'm trying to butt up against that and and try to.
force my flow onto him. Whereas because I have nothing related to that channel, I can just sit back and watch him get into his flow, which actually becomes a shared experience that when he responds correctly and is in his flow, actually the rest of us can find our flow because it's kind of a shared mechanic.
And so as long as we're all operating correctly, we all get into our own flow because he correctly got into the flow. And it's kind of like, well, this is kind of cool. We're all doing our own thing, just you know, whatever, simply because, you know, son number one is doing what he's supposed to be doing or what he's designed to be doing. So it's understanding those kinds of mechanics because I oftentimes when you when you start to learn the mechanics of of your closest partnerships, your partner, your spouse, your kids, your siblings.
The sometimes your best friends, whoo! Can it be frustrating in the beginning? Absolutely. Is it liberating after a while? Absolutely. Because once you understand the mechanics, you can be like, okay, you're fine. You go do your thing. I'm just gonna stay over here and do mine. I don't have to get involved if I don't want to. Yeah. And that's again a reciprocity.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (57:15.814)
Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (57:21.358)
Yes. Yes. Reciprocity and you know, I mean, we a lot of times we think of maybe the surface level definition is like I give this, you give that. You know, I get I I give, then I get. You give, then you get. Maybe feels like the surface level level reciprocity. But I think the deeper, right? If we go, what's the next level? It is I see you, you see me.
Lauren Ammon (57:35.028)
Yes.
Lauren Ammon (57:46.75)
Yes. And we let each other.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (57:49.219)
And that's I yeah, that I think that's the deepest level of reciproc reciprocity is I s and even more, I see you and all of you, and I welcome and accept all of you. You see me and you welcome and accept all of me. That's that's the truth. That's the reciprocity that allows us to then build.
The structures and systems that, you know, channel prosperity, channel money, channel our time, channel our energy.
into creating a life that actually works for everyone.
That's really special.
Lauren Ammon (58:38.654)
Yes. And see
Hannah Chapman, CFP (58:42.138)
Can't see.
And that's it. That's all we got. And but we are we are in this energy. We're in Libra for until September 29th. Mercury is in Libra until September 29th. so I think we can I I that I think that's probably even a good place to pick back up. is is diving deeper into reciprocity. next time. Because again, right, it's like money, money is the surface.
Lauren Ammon (58:46.81)
That's it. That's all fun.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (59:14.617)
Money is the
Lauren Ammon (59:18.654)
Gateway? Good.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (59:19.818)
It's more it's it's maybe even like like the gas in the tank. Right? It's that's the that it's like the thing that like like facilitates the movement. It's the fuel, it's the w it's the water in the river, it's the gas in the tank, it's the it's the thing that keeps things propelled, moving forward. and so yeah, like reciprocity. What is what does reciprocity mean?
Lauren Ammon (59:31.326)
Yeah, it's the fuel.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (59:49.07)
within that on that deeper level. I think we can make a little note. Talk about that for next time. So but we have to get going. Love, love, love having this conversation with you. our dear listener, however one of you there are, I don't know. Just pretend we're talking specifically to you. You're the only one. You're the only one in the audience just listening. Thank you for being here. Thank you, Lauren, for being here with me.
Lauren Ammon (59:54.442)
Well deal. Excellent.
Lauren Ammon (01:00:13.631)
Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (01:00:18.118)
And we'll see you next time.
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Expansive CEO podcast. I'm your host, Hannah Chapman, and my beautiful co-host Lauren Ammon is here with us. Hi, Lauren.
Lauren Ammon (00:11.746)
Hi friends, hi Hannah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (00:13.351)
Hi, we are in a the we're in a Libra phase, right? So we're taught we're like, we talked about this last week. We're kind of going with the collective Mercury energy right now of like what are we here to talk about? What's the thing that's, you know, in the collective right now, the the topics where the juice is. And so right now we're talking about money between people.
Which if you've been listening to the podcast for any amount of time, we talk about this a lot anyway, because it's part of it's like the root of right our work. a lot of a lot of times we talk about your money relationship with yourself and within yourself, and that's really important too. so this is gonna we are gonna like shine the light more that lens of money between people, reciprocity, fairness, partnership.
Lauren Ammon (00:50.958)
Okay.
Lauren Ammon (00:58.03)
Yep.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (01:12.101)
Let's what else to say. What power, fairness, receiving, or reciprocity dynamic is underneath the relationship. So yeah, we're gonna we're gonna talk about some of that and and how that touches your your partnerships. you know, your romantic partner, you're if you're married or partnered, what does that look like between people? a business partner, you know, all of that comes up. Even
Lauren Ammon (01:19.116)
Mm.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (01:40.633)
We talked about this on Investment Friday. If you've never heard the Investment Friday podcast, you can go find that on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen. and I talked with my chief investment officer at X Squared, Brad Haynes. We talked about this in relation to, you know, really generational questions, like money between generations, money between, you know, children and parents. And that's a huge
topic that's been coming up lately with regard to inheritance, with regard to, you know, how your parents saw money, how your grandparents saw money, how you see money, what it means to you, and what it means to actually have like what that experience of prosperity means between, you know, we've got depression era, silent gen, we've got baby boomers, we've got Gen X, we've got elder millennials versus
younger millennials actually. You know, like we have a pretty big split. Lauren and I are both geriatric millennials. Thank you. but millennials go all the way to
Lauren Ammon (02:44.172)
Yeah, to like millennials.
Lauren Ammon (02:50.412)
Ninety six, ninety eight, something like that?
Hannah Chapman, CFP (02:52.09)
Something like that. Yeah. And the younger side of the millennial generation, actually even has a a different experience than we do being born in the, you know, early 80s. and then Gen Z and Gen Alpha, right? Like graduating, growing up in a very different experience as well. So like money between people, money between family systems. we're gonna be talking about this for a good couple of weeks here. So it's a great topic.
Lauren Ammon (03:18.478)
Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (03:21.59)
What what was coming up for you for that? What was the thing that you were like, okay, wait, let's talk about this?
Lauren Ammon (03:28.962)
Well well, first and foremost, I I d I correct me when I s may say this very ignorant like Libra carries a lot of weight for me, even though I'm an Aries moon, Aries sun, like I have a lot in Libra, like in my sixth house. So it's like Libra feels like r really resonant in me. And this idea of, you know, kind of money between people is yes, balancing the skills and and and I think
Hannah Chapman, CFP (03:42.988)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (03:53.914)
Balancing the scales, literally.
Lauren Ammon (03:58.988)
What's coming actually up in this moment is that, you know, and I say this to my kids all the time is fair does not mean equal. And you know, I use that a lot, you know, as a parent because I'm like, you two are two different people. So I'm a different parent to each of you. That's one thing. But the idea of particularly, you know, in our work with couples, is this interesting dynamic that we that you intentionally built into the process is that they both.
fill out what we call the prosperity vision workbook as a part of the process. And the instruction is you fill this out separately. And then we come together intentionally as a group and discuss it. And the thing that always comes up is that the the couples that we've worked with, they're, they're relatively pretty much on the same page. But the way that it manifests, the way that, you know, if they both say freedom, freedom and money can mean very different things to each of them.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (04:44.358)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Ammon (04:54.485)
Or you know, choice or prosperity or time or presence or you know, whatever word they use, because we actually ask them to say what is the one word that comes up when you think about money. And it's always so interesting to see how they translate so differently. And then, as part of the process, how we facilitate both of them being able to meet their goals, see their goals, feel feel their goals, and
As they're working through that, I'm gonna see I'm gonna use the word manipulate, manipulate their relationship with money, but I mean manipulate in terms of shift, transform, mold, intentionally shift their relationship with money. And and and I think I think the idea of money between people is just like we can't talk enough about it.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (05:46.767)
Yeah. Yeah. No, it it it's I want to give an example from the wild. that's really interesting. yes, we will come back to the prosperity vision workbook because it's really it's like you said, it's a very intentional part of the process that I I created years ago. and have really like dialed in and honed in over time and like, you know, so yeah, that's a very important piece of the process. And
You know, when we talk about money stories, especially an expansive CEO, we talk a ton about money stories. and if you go to Substack, you can go see that and see the whole journey of the money story journey. that helps you heal your relationship with money within yourself, which then allows you to write, have a little bit more grace, see other people's money stories come up. you'll just you'll start to be aware and you'll see them and hear them everywhere once you are aware. It's it's very fascinating.
so little a little story I want to tell from this weekend. Excuse me. my husband he loves he loves Reddit. So he is he'll be on Reddit and like he has different things that he he likes to look at. One of the things, you know, that came pops up on if you've ever been on Reddit, like there's like a front page, I think it's called the front page. You know, and so lots of different things will come up on that.
It's just like a feed of, you know, articles and people asking questions and forum questions and things like that. And one came up on like the personal finance subreddit. And it was a woman asking for advice, asking for help from the personal finance subreddit, which is notoriously anti financial advisor, by the way. It's very, it's super, it's a little toxic in there. but
Lauren Ammon (07:35.085)
Shocking.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (07:41.177)
She shared in this prompt in this question that, you know, she was having a really hard time because her husband really wanted, was like ready to buy a house. And she grew up very poor. And as she's explaining her situation, she grew up with nothing. It was very poor, very lots of scarcity. she now has a great job. Her husband has a great job. they have a million dollars in savings.
they have plenty of money, like in in just like cash savings. They have saved a lot of money. and plenty of plenty of income, right, to support a mortgage. Like financially, there's no reason to not buy a house. But she is terrified of spending that money. Cause it's there now, right? And and her whole life was scarcity and her whole growing up, like there wasn't enough.
And now it feels like, I have this pile of money and I I don't want to jeopardize that. Even though the money is still coming in. They have great incomes. They've, you know, been through hard things before and risen to the occasion. And and so my husband like replied to this comment because he hears me talk about it all the time, right? And or you know, replies and
Set yeah, he I he without selling. I said, Hey, you need you need to come sell for me. You're really good. He's a great salesman. it's not what he does professionally, but he you know, he shared like, hey, this is you know, this is something that a lot of people deal with. he just had some really, really good wisdom to share and was like, Hey, I'd like this is something.
If you if you w want to know someone who literally helps people through this process in in this way, you know, just let me know. I'll send you our information. but he was like, Yeah, he he was just surprised to see that out in the wild. And I'm like, Yeah, like it's it's interesting, right? Like to once you know, once once your eyes are open to the fact that these money stories are everywhere and everyone has something.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (10:05.486)
Whether they had a great experience growing up or a really hard experience growing up as regarding like, did you have enough money or not? You can still have so many money stories that come up. And so part of kind of like bringing it back to the prosperity vision workbook, part of what we see then is, yeah, what what were those stories? Do we have competing stories? Are you kind of are you in alignment now?
But there are money stories underneath that are then affecting, you know, how you make each make decisions. And I think we saw one of our other recent couples, they had
They had very different money stories growing up. And you know, the husband, yeah, was like, and we didn't talk about it. We didn't have enough, but we also didn't talk about it. And now it's like it doesn't even feel like it's real. So I see these numbers and these gro charts and graphs and it like doesn't feel real to me.
Lauren Ammon (10:56.205)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (11:13.786)
And that was again, it's like, okay, that's good. We need to know that information. So we so that like I know how to guide you going forward and what this what this means. Does it mean there's no fear? Not necessarily.
Right. It might feel that way. It feels like disassociation, actually, is what it tends to feel like. Right. It's like I'm s I am so disconnected from the experience of what money is supposed to feel like. It felt so unsafe for so long that I have disconnected myself from it so as not to allow myself to be hurt by it again. Is what comes up for me.
Lauren Ammon (12:00.673)
Yeah, I'm you're as you're as you're talking, I'm sitting here like it really is just an unbelievable complicated web of relationships inside of relationships tied to money.
And how much an unknown or unprocessed relationship with money can affect your human relationship and how much stress exists and how much dysregulation is happening on any given day at any given moment between two people and they're completely unaware of it.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (12:33.274)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (12:51.386)
Well, and even if they are, this is the other piece, is that and we talk about this too, right? Awareness, acceptance, aligned action. You can be so aware. We hear about this in therapy speak too, right? It's like we can have so much self-awareness, but if we don't have the willingness to like accept it and then take a new action, we just stay stuck. You just stay stuck in the awareness. So, like the Reddit thread, right? It's like this woman is aware.
That her financial situation is not the same as it was when she was growing up.
Fully aware, fully get it. And yet, right. It's just have she wouldn't be reaching out for help if she wasn't trying to like find a way, right? So they're like absolutely asking the question is is the first step to like, okay, what do I do? How do I, how do I get through this? but you know, think about, or even maybe this is you listening, right? Like having that thought of I know that my relationship with money, something is messed up here.
It doesn't feel right. Something feels like I should be able off. I should be able to make these decisions. I like I see the discrepancy and I'm still stuck. That's the spot where it's like, okay, we need to peel back the layers, take a look under the hood, do like subconsciously what's what's in there.
And work with that material in in the way that will actually help you to what comes up is like is emotionally process. It's like that's unprocessed emotion.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (14:42.722)
that we're getting stuck in thinking it's just about data.
Lauren Ammon (14:47.169)
Yeah. And you know what's really funny is that as you're sitting here talking about the woman on Reddit, I'm like, God, I would love to see her human design.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (14:53.774)
Right? Always.
Lauren Ammon (14:55.509)
Right, right. Like, I can just feel, you know, I can feel either conditioning, you know, from certain areas or it's overused definition as I like to call it. It's like you you just lean so hard into your definition that it's like I don't even know how to get out of it. So for instance, I'll I'll give an example, right? So when I hear a story like that, my immediate goes to, well, do they have an open splenic center? So listener, if you're if you're
Hannah Chapman, CFP (15:20.411)
Mm.
Lauren Ammon (15:22.173)
Looking at your own chart, it's the sideways triangle to the left of your chart. If that's colored in, you have a defined spleen, which means you have consistent and reliable access to your own internal sense of safe safety, healthy safety, health, and security. And if it's wide open, the conditioning is I don't know how to let go or I'm hanging on to something that isn't safe. Like I'm hanging on to it for a s for a sense of comfort, a sense of security.
And so when I hear stories like that, I automatically go to the conditioning of an open open splenic center, undefined splenic center up. I'm just I'm hanging on because I it's the only sense of security and comfort that I know, or it's overused definition. So you could say that as somebody like me who has every gate of her spleen defined some more than once in like the fear of feeling unsafe.
Right. So I've gotta hold on to this money because it's the only form of protection I know because I didn't know it growing up. So that's why kind of the when you think about your own human design or anybody's human design, like the spectrum is wide. And as we always kind of say, like it always kind of meets in the middle if you're the extreme, right? Or or if you're experiencing the street extreme. And I and I think about it that way of like, and we've talked about.
This on this podcast is the idea that money is of control and and power and and security, right? I mean, you can you could lump security into that of like, well, if I have it, I gotta hold on to it. Otherwise, I won't have the freedom. I won't have the control. I won't have the power. I won't have the security. And it's just so incredibly interesting that the more and more couples or or individuals that we work with, it doesn't matter the background that you came from.
Everyone has a money story that is
Lauren Ammon (17:23.073)
Running under the surface, you know, percolating through, or it's percolating, and then it's popping up in different scenarios. And oftentimes it is in relation to other people. And it doesn't have to be your partner. It can be your kids. It can be your business partner. It can be your friends. It can be your siblings, right? You can have two siblings grow up in the same household and have completely different.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (17:40.726)
yeah.
Lauren Ammon (17:53.845)
Money stories.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (17:55.44)
Mm.
Lauren Ammon (17:56.907)
And then as you grow up and mature with one another, you can start to see those play out and like how you handle shared gifts, or I'm just, you know, making up a scenario in that respect. But it when you start paying attention, the money stories that you have, yeah, I'm gonna say always, always interact in that whatever relationship you have with other people. And this idea of the shared
Yeah yeah. The the shared money perception between partners and whatever partner you want to talk.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (18:35.994)
Well, yeah. And so you alluded to this when you started, when you talked about the Prosperity Vision workbook. in the first place is that, you know, I very intentionally ask people to fill it out separately. If if a if we have a couple come in, I want no and don't look at each other's answers, right? Don't do it together. Eyes on your own paper. Right. Yeah. because
Lauren Ammon (18:57.697)
Put your little folders up. Can't Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (19:07.106)
What I what I found over years and years of working with people is that like very often there's there's a person who is dominant in the financial. They're they're the one who handles the stuff. and a lot of times they're also the one directing like what are the quote unquote goals.
And in a lot of relationships, you know, let's let's say like in our parents' generation, if you had, you know, a mom that stayed at home, because that was more often the case, right? If you had a stay-at-home parent, it was usually your mom. so then it was all about, you know, when is the dad gonna retire? When is the husband gonna retire? And so like life is just like waiting, basically, and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting. And so the stress of
being the one working versus being the one waiting. All of a sudden, you know, like if you don't, if you leave that conversation unexamined, which is what happened all the time, by the time, you know, the in these scenarios when the husband would retire finally, they didn't have a shared goal. They didn't have an actual shared vision of what does life actually look like? What how are we going to do
life together now that, you know, suddenly now we're both home all the time and we don't have goals together. And so it divorce, you know, there there's this whole wave that we were calling gray divorce, you know, probably like 10, 15 years ago. people realizing, we actually don't want to we don't like each other. And we don't want to be together. like right. I mean, my own parents, you know, in that boat.
as well and it was like, well, yeah. Cause you didn't you weren't working towards any shared goal, really, truly. You were working toward one person's goal, one person's vision of what life could be like.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (21:21.782)
And that it if it's not collaborative, if both parties, if everyone involved doesn't have like their full voice in the conversation, then it and ahead of time, not like, hey, I want to retire next year, let's figure it out now. It's like, no, when we do this work years ahead of time, you get the chance to get to know each other again.
And you get the chance to be like, okay, that's what that's what's important to you. Cool. Awesome. I can get on board with that. And then we see it from the other partner. that's what's important to you. Cool. We can also get on board with that. Are they the same? Not always. Sometimes we have very different ideas. And that's where, like that tension of you don't know me, you don't see me, you don't listen to me.
from either side, right? Like it's well, yeah. If you didn't ever talk about it, if you didn't ever create the space to share, like this is what life, like my my best life would feel like. What would feel so awesome to me. And this is what my best life would feel like. And this would feel so awesome to me. And here's where they here are the overlap, here is the Venn diagram, right? Here is where it overlaps. It overlaps a lot.
But then we also have these other areas that are just ours. You know, just just yours and just yours.
And those to me, from the the planning perspective and from the again, seeing so many couples go through this, those pieces that like what is it what is just for you for spouse A and what is just for you for spouse B, those are actually some of the most important aspects. Because within, you know, we're talking about money between people.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (23:21.336)
it it's not it it's not all ours. If everything is lumped into ours one hundred percent, someone is getting squashed and no one is actually getting what ev you know what they truly want.
Lauren Ammon (23:36.683)
Right. I would even venture to guess both of them are getting squashed. In some way, shape, or form. And and I think that's the interesting lean that I now have on relationship. It's like you don't you don't have to do it. Like you don't have to do everything together. One. Two, it's so im I I almost can't I'm you know, I'm just in a mood today. I'm just gonna, you know, well, my opinions are gonna come out as like.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (23:40.142)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren Ammon (24:05.204)
There it is never too early to have these kinds of conversations in a relationship. And I think so now more than ever in our current society, where it's like it's this weird dynamic that everybody yearns and desires for this deep connection. And yet the way that the system is set up is that we're actually constantly being pulled away from.
The deep connection because everyone, well, God. Well, if I see something else out there, is that going to be better than over there? Is it grass greener here? Is it there? And, you know, like modern dating is just, you know, jumping from pasture to pasture to be like, well, which one is better? But then, you know, behind the scenes, we're all craving deep connection. And it's kind of like, well, sometimes why don't you just put the
F and phone down and and the options down. Like stop treating it like Netflix and what the hell do I watch? And just being like, hey, I'm gonna pick this one thing and I'm gonna go all in until I find that it's probably it may I'm gonna go all in until something tells me maybe it isn't the right choice. But I don't think it's ever too early to have these conversations. And at least just to open it up.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (25:25.242)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Lauren Ammon (25:27.104)
You know, and if some someone isn't mature enough to handle it, be Deuces, all right, see ya. Yeah, right. I mean, you know, i what is the you know believe what they're telling you and showing you versus the potential you have in your mind of what it could be.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (25:31.162)
Right. Also good to know.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (25:39.302)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (25:45.519)
Yes. Yeah. And that's I mean, that's the other that's the other aspect of like you said, like doing this work sooner rather than later. and it, you know, if it is approaching later and you feel like you're getting to it a little bit like, we should probably have done this before, it's it's also it's never too late. It's never too late to make this transition into like understanding.
Lauren Ammon (26:08.193)
Yes.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (26:14.82)
your your money stories, your partner's money stories, what you can accomplish together. Like it's never too late to get started, but it is absolutely, absolutely so beneficial to do this as soon as, as soon as you have, I mean, even if like as as you have a good job, as you have that money that you can start directing it somewhere, right? Like that's as soon as possible, that's as soon as possible.
Lauren Ammon (26:44.236)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (26:45.188)
Right. And that's great. It's great to have those conversations and to have them early and to have them often. but let's say, you know, you're in in your late thirties, early to mid forties, you know, anywhere in there. If you haven't had these conversations with your partner yet, and your kids are still, you know, like my kids are eleven, thirteen, fifteen. yeah, I have people in our age group.
We have a lot of friends who have much younger kids. Start a little later, right? Yeah. So, so they have you know, might have little ones. having these conversations, not just about like what do we want retirement to look and feel like? Yes, that's important. That's one of our questions in the V Prosperity Division workbook, you know. But even that is not like, what do you want to do in retirement? It's like, what is
Lauren Ammon (27:16.704)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (27:42.095)
What does retirement, the word, even sound like to you? What does that mean to you? and do you like, do you even resonate with it as a concept or does something else sound better to you? Right. And that's that gives us a lot of information. Right? If you have one partner who's like, yeah, I want to just stop working and then travel the world and just be have complete freedom, never have to do anything.
Lauren Ammon (27:45.174)
Yes.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (28:10.062)
And I want someone who can do that with me. And then their other partner is like, I find immense purpose in what I do. And I don't ever want to stop. And I want to be able to for income not to matter. Like if I could give away my time doing this, this thing that I do, this thing helping people that matters so much to me.
I would do that for free. Right. There there are people who are very, very immersed in purpose in that way.
Right. Like maybe that's something that you wanna know about. You wanna talk about that when you're forty five, not when you're sixty and like, Okay, well now we don't have anything in common.
And now our retire both of our retirements are gonna be cut in half.
So you actually don't get to retire, by the way. Right. Cause we're gonna get a divorce and now everyone is just a little bit worse off in the financial realm. That's definitely not always the case. but from a again, from a financial standpoint, it can be a real shock.
Lauren Ammon (29:06.644)
Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (29:23.056)
To, you know, have this vision of, well, I thought we would travel the world together. And now you have to be here for meetings and for clients. And that's not what I wanted. And the p other partners like, well, I didn't I I don't want to be traveling the world full time. yeah, I wanna go on a couple of vacations per year, but I don't wanna I don't wanna, you know, live abroad for six months.
I wanna be here. I want to be close to the kids or you know, I wanna be close to my friends or you know, it's it doesn't sound like it's about money.
And it's not necessarily, but the money conversation opens the box. It opens the box to all of those topics, all of those feelings, all of those like hopes and dreams.
It allows us to have that conversation in
Hannah Chapman, CFP (30:30.871)
Mm, how do I want to say this? At least at least with us, like it's in a safe container.
Lauren Ammon (30:40.18)
Yeah, when you're talking it's it's seemingly not about money, but money is always at the root of, well, I want to I want to have enough in order to be able to travel the world. And the other's kinda like, well, I want to have enough so I don't necessarily feel like I ever have to you know, I'm it's more about purpose versus you know, purpose after I've made enough in order to be able to facilitate that life. And so yeah, I mean, money is somewhere always at the root of the conversation.
And what also made me chuckle as you were talking is, you know, before we got on air, we talked about generationally, you know, the older Gen X, well, maybe not so much Gen X, maybe a little less Gen X than let's say some of the older millennials and even younger millennials, Gen Z and now Gen Alpha. Compare it to boomers, boomers who were who tended to be, and always, you know, generalizations here tended to be more the about the things like.
saving but when they were spending money it was about the things. Whereas, you know, more more elder millennials as geriatrics and and younger tend to be more about the experience. But what made me chuckle is that, you know, most of our clients are give or take within our age range, right? And it's so funny how many of them are also like, yeah, I don't necessarily just
Retire doesn't mean do nothing. Retire means I still give my energy to something to, you know, maximizing, you know, just my learning or my education or just supporting others or being of service to people. You know, it's just so funny to me that that we as generations want the experiences, but I think our conditioning is so deep.
That sometimes we feel like we can't just give it up. We gotta keep giving just a little bit, you know, we gotta use it for something. and I just I I just find that, you know, I I don't know that I've ever thought about that before. I th that it just came up right as we were talking, and I just think, hmm. Again, it adds another layer of complexity, not just in our own money stories, but then the money how how the money that we have translates to the partnerships that we have.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (32:42.01)
Yeah, just relax.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (33:12.372)
Mm. Yeah, that's I mean
I see that that's all the time I see that as well. and have, you know, clients who
Hannah Chapman, CFP (33:27.236)
literally you know, retire from their main profession and the next Monday start a new job. Right? Like retire not yet. Right? 'Cause there's there is there is like a fear of
I don't know if I can stop.
Doesn't feel safe. And so that, you know, from that perspective, like, what do I do with that? Okay, well, we take it slow. Yes. Like, okay, so you're making less. Are you also working less? Does it feel more sustainable? Does it feel better? Because you were going, you know, 100 miles an hour before. Are are you down to 60? Does it feel more manageable? Right. And then next year, like, we'll give that a year. And then
Are you ready to let a little more go? Yes. It looks okay. It looks safe. You know, like there's
Just interesting because that that literally is a client situation. right this moment of yeah, there's you know, what is the money fine? Yeah, it'll be fine. But you know, that sense of like again, zero one hundred to down to you know, full stop didn't feel good either. but from that from that generational lens, and again, we talked on investment Friday, we talked a little bit more about that.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (34:57.572)
Boomers, you know, a lot of boomers were raised by people who went through the depression. And so, you know, my that was my grandparents. my my mom's mom was the oldest of nine. Oldest of nine, I believe. and she was a teenager during the depression and did a lot of the caring, right? For and helping and
Her father had passed away. So it was her mom was yeah, it was her and her mom, right? Taking care of everything. And, you know, she even when she had money, she established a good career, and worked her whole life and she worked for Motorola, so she had a pension, because she worked for Motorola when they had a pension, you know, all of those things. And then my my grandpa worked for Honeywell and had a pension through them and
had their social security, all that. And even still, like it was it was just so hard for her to to really like spend money. And so my mom being she's like on the younger end of the boomers, you know, the it's like kind of both. Like the the stuff matters to her, but she's also still very like careful and frugal.
in some ways and very good at stretching every you know food and different things like she's she's amazing in in a lot of ways. My printer is over there making all kinds of noise. Shush shush printer in case you're hearing that. okay good. but there has been, you know, I would say even with my my husband's parents also also boomers.
Lauren Ammon (36:39.817)
No, no, I think.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (36:51.78)
On the younger, mid to younger side of the boomer generation, like things were very important for a long time. And for me and my husband and his siblings, and I would say even my my brothers, right? For us, even when our kids were little, it like this piece of like please stop getting our kids stuff. It's too much stuff. We have too much stuff. Can can we please have experiences? Like
Lauren Ammon (37:15.242)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (37:22.488)
Let's get a zoo pass. Let's let's do a museum pass. Let's like go somewhere together. Let's make a memory together. Like that, can we spend money on those things versus accumulating more more things that we have to then get rid of?
And that, you know, I also well I had a client once who was a organi kind of like an estate organizer, helping people and helping people downsize. And that is like that is a whole profession for a reason for sure. Right. Because there are like a lot of a lot of people who just have accumulated so much stuff that us, our generation, are like, God, we're gonna have to go through all of that, aren't we? And so we see that.
We know it's coming for us. Someone's gonna have to deal with all this stuff. And we don't wanna do that. We don't wanna we don't wanna have that much stuff.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (38:26.086)
And the experiences still, right? Like that's that's the thing. And I see like even with the retirement, right? It's like the travel budget. I have so many clients where like we that's a line item. Like, I wanna know that we can we can do this. And that's if I'm gonna prioritize where my money is going, that is a priority for me.
Lauren Ammon (38:38.985)
Yep. Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (38:51.546)
being able to, you know, even from like a second house perspective, that's an interesting one too. Like fewer people are wanting second homes. And instead, like, well, what if we just, you know, rent somewhere really nice once a year or even twice a year. Like it you're gonna spend less doing a really awesome rental. Even if you rented somewhere for like a month, right? Like than it costs to own and maintain a second home.
In a lot of ways. and again, because it's about the experience. One thing I had a client say, like, well then we could also go different places. We don't have to go to the same place all the time. Like, yeah.
Lauren Ammon (39:34.324)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And for people who have a lot of abstract circuitry in their chart, different places is going to be a better fit for you. And people are like, what the hell does that mean? Well, well, that's what we talk about inside. Like helping you realize, you know, what your mechanics actually, how your mechanics influence one, your relationship with money right now, or you know, the interplay of relationship with money, and two, how your mechanics want to want.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (39:34.564)
Absolutely.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (39:41.697)
Yeah.
Lauren Ammon (40:03.637)
to interact with money and want to interact with experience. and and that's, you know, that's that the the very deep level of, you know, kind of once we figured all that out is supporting you and understanding, hey, here's a way to look at it completely differently than you've ever looked at it before.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (40:23.654)
Well, I would say sometimes when we when we drop some of those nuggets for people, it's like that that moment of recognition comes up of like, well, your your design says this specifically. And so sometimes that can translate to, like you said, like, yes, I I I yearn for different experiences. I don't like doing the same thing over and over. Where if your partner is literally the opposite, like they are like, you know, routine.
Lauren Ammon (40:30.164)
Yes.
Lauren Ammon (40:49.899)
They have a lot of logic.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (40:51.372)
Right routine through and through, like I like it when I know what's coming, you know, all of those things. And then you can see each other, I see. Okay, you do need new experiences. You do need to, you know, to go different places and try different things. And you do need kind of like a a a cozy, warm nest home base that you like to go back to. Okay, cool.
Lauren Ammon (41:08.395)
Right.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (41:20.494)
Money in relationships, reciprocity, fairness, partnership, these are our themes. That's the job. Like how do we then to your point, fair isn't necessarily equal? What does fair look like? I don't know, fair in quotes, but maybe even more what does reciprocity look like?
Lauren Ammon (41:43.36)
Yeah. It what came up for me in that is like how, you know, one partner wants to go to different places, the other wants kind of the same routine. Like, how do you facilitate those two things at the same time? How do you go somewhere different where the other can maintain a portion of their routine?
And being able to to your point, again, maybe hell, I'm gonna say this. You know, we talk off the a lot of the times like compromise is a word is that you know, the connotation is that someone or maybe both of you loses right. And you know, then we we tend to talk about collaboration, but what if the word really is reciprocity?
Hannah Chapman, CFP (42:15.18)
Everyone loses a little.
Lauren Ammon (42:24.639)
You know, what if that really is the the base of it or a collaborative reciprocity, knowing that there's always going to be a back and forth, a give and take, a how do we meet each other where we are? And oftentimes that comes with going through these really deep conversations, and sometimes they are difficult. And then tying it back to who you two are as individuals.
And and to to support the recognition that when you when you have the courage, when you when you have the awareness of what's going on, you have the courage, you have the courage to accept that maybe you two want different things. But just because you want different things doesn't mean that the relationship has to change or end, or I shouldn't say end. Maybe the relationship has to change a little bit.
to be to go back to that acceptance of, hey, I see you want this thing, I want this thing. You know, we can be two separate entities inside of this beautiful relationship. We just need to kind of look at the relationship differently. And then we can take aligned action and show the reciprocity between the two of us.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (43:34.992)
Yeah. Yeah, I have a friend who talks about it in terms of agreements. Like what are your agreements? which I think is a beautiful way to to talk about that because you know, a lot of times we
We think like like to your point, like we either have to compromise and everyone has to lose something, or again, what I've what I've seen so many times, like one person is like, fine, we'll do it your way. And then either, you know, they end up getting divorced still, right? In bitter like we just we don't we don't want the same things anymore. Or even worse actually is when you, you know, like
People talk about their grandparents and how much they hate each other. You know, like how sad it's so sad. It's it really truly is heartbreaking when it's like like there's like bitterness that has turned into venom for their partner.
Lauren Ammon (44:26.921)
Yeah, yes.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (44:42.47)
And it doesn't start when you're 75, right? I mean, that started decades, decades ahead, you know, and and it could even be two perfectly, you know, normal people that just always both of them always had to lose. And they always felt like the compromise was was, you know, everyone's worse off.
Lauren Ammon (44:48.405)
Decades.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (45:12.878)
W when you live a lifetime like that.
It's like that's not it's not it's not healthy to be around. I mean, I would say like my my paternal grandparents were like that. Just not, you know.
Not it not it like not fun to be around is like such a trite way to put that, but like actually like harmful. Harmful to be around.
Lauren Ammon (45:40.489)
Yeah. Yep. Talk about conditioning.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (45:44.666)
Yeah.
Yeah. And that's it it it it's just
Hannah Chapman, CFP (45:53.403)
That's the thing that we can you can choose ahead of time, right? It's like that's what we're literally saying is like, okay, well, if the let's say the one person that needs new experiences all the time, okay, does it have to be with your spouse? Do you have, you know, friends that like that's your thing that you go, you know? I'll give an an example as a knitter and fiber person, right? Like
Would my husband go with me to like sheep and wool festivals all around the country? Probably. Would it be his favorite thing in the world? No. I mean, he would he has fun seeing me like see interesting things. But you know, if I had knitter friends who were like, yeah, let's go to Maryland Sheep and Wool Festival, that would be like the most fun thing in the universe. Right, go with them. Go go like have your experiences of being different and and like loving different things.
And then come back together and have like the what's the reciprocity? That's the like and the partnership is being able to come back and like talk about all the you know, the fun experience that you had and getting to be genuinely, it's so much more fun to be like with someone who has that sense of aliveness on both sides.
Lauren Ammon (47:14.025)
Yeah. Yeah. And and I I always go back to like, what about your kids? You know, as parents, w we all connect with our children differently. And as my dad said, and I I actually appreciate that my dad has said this before, is I have my favorites for certain things.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (47:26.874)
Mm-hmm.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (47:35.683)
yeah.
Lauren Ammon (47:37.224)
You know, it's like, well, duh, of course you do. Like it and you become a parent. Cause I remember when he said that and he named, you know, I have I have two older sisters, and so he named each of us for like the favorite thing about each of us. And I was like, Yes. You know, it's so you know, I I feel like parents these days, yeah, again, I'm not gonna get on a soapbox. I'm really opinionated today. Something's in the transits going on. But like, you know, we all have to love our children equally. Yes.
Love your children equally. Absolutely. I love my children beyond belief, but I love them for very different reasons. And I love to be with them for very different reasons. And so in this idea of to your friend, do you like do you have knitter friends? Is one of your kids, you know, just using that example. Or, you know, I would probably choose my younger son more for like different eating experiences. And, you know, he'd he'd love to sit in the restaurant and
You know, wonder about how they made it or or where we're going next. And then, you know, my older son is more about movies and you know, kind of the trivia around movies and, you know, those sorts of things. And it's like, you know, d is there someone already in your home that could fulfill, you know, the various interests that you share collectively. Because oftentimes, again, I think sometimes we get so, well.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (48:53.349)
Yeah.
Lauren Ammon (49:05.119)
The family has to do it together, as as a couple have to do it together. No. You don't.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (49:11.152)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Ammon (49:12.501)
Right. I mean, I think all of us parents can deter can tell when, you know, among all of our children, one is more excited than the other when we do certain things. And it's kind of like, yeah, okay, well, then next time we'll go do what you want to do. And it reciprocity is already built in. It's just a matter of being l maybe a little bit more intentional about it and being a little bit more free about it.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (49:36.327)
I love this example because I think that's actually more tangible. That's like a really tangible. Anyone, anyone with more than one child, or I would say even parents of an only child who like their kid has friends. You can see, you can see very clearly that every kid is different. Even if they have a lot of c in common, even if they get along, right? Like you can tell that, all right, that.
That kiddo has different needs, than than this one, you know, in whatever ways. And when we do have like I have three kids, you have two, like you can see very different different things about each of them and the same. Like our our son is the one who's like
He he feels like the one that would go to us with to bougie restaurants, right? Like my husband and I love going to a good restaurant and having just like a really, really good meal. Our son is the one who can appreciate that. And he'll sit there, he'll sit there and just look like, what spices are in here? How do we do this? Right. Like it's like it's so it's so fun when he started doing that. I'm like, because most of the time they'll just like wolf their food down and just be off. where other girls are a little bit more picky.
Lauren Ammon (50:40.38)
Yeah.
Lauren Ammon (50:49.087)
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (50:55.236)
And they just are and it's fine, right? And they'll they'll appreciate a good meal here and there, but they're not the ones that are like again, like, yeah, wondering how it's made.
Yeah, and it and and we you know my son loves Star Wars. He loves space, he loves like military history, like all of those things. Do I expect my youngest daughter who is into none of those things, right? Like, do you want to go see a new Star Wars movie? Do you want to go to, you know, an Air Force history museum? No. No, she doesn't. I don't really want to either.
But my husband would love to take him, you know, like, yeah. That that's that's just a really it's a really obvious, tangible example of why are why would we force everyone to do a bunch of stuff that we don't like when you could have that special time. Right. There there are yes, there are things that we can do as a family together that are wonderful and make great memories. But then yeah, like it there's something even more special about it when you get to like.
Have one on one time, or you know, when you get to do something with one of your kids that's like special and unique to either them or to your bond together, that's really special. So extend like extending that lens out then to yourself and your partner.
Lauren Ammon (52:17.512)
Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (52:26.896)
Like what would that be like? What would that be like if you if you just honor could honor yourself and your partner in that same way?
Hannah Chapman, CFP (52:39.546)
Well, you know, that would be what's coming up for is like I'm sure that's a question that most people have never even pondered, never asked themselves, never been asked.
I I also wanted to throw in a human design piece there too, because my I've we have five, me, my husband, three kids. Every single one of us has a defined G center. So that's that's the diamond right in the middle. It's usually yellow-ish. All five of us. And so that that center says, I know who I am, I know what direction I want to go. And in its
Lauren Ammon (53:01.298)
Okay.
Lauren Ammon (53:06.086)
I love it. I love it so much.
Lauren Ammon (53:17.278)
Well well, I have a very specific direction. Whether I know what it is or not is
Hannah Chapman, CFP (53:22.66)
Well yes. And what's funny is it tends to be I know what it's not. And so if you try to like force it into a direction that it doesn't want to go, it's not fun. and my God. I have seen that play out so many times. you know, where it where it is like, can you can someone just go with the flow for just five seconds? Can we just go with the flow? But we have five
Lauren Ammon (53:26.238)
Yes.
Lauren Ammon (53:48.299)
Only your oldest daughter, I think. I think I think only she technically can go with her own flow. And and the rest of you just fall into that flow.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (53:58.145)
Right.
Right. Yes. Yeah. That comes up too. But it's you know, for me as a parent to embrace that they are all very much individuals. Even not not that like you, Lauren, with a with a completely open G, completely open, undefined.
Lauren Ammon (54:18.906)
No, just I one one activated gate, yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (54:21.84)
That's right. So undefined G doesn't mean you're not an individual.
But you are you do have the ability to go with the flow a little better.
Lauren Ammon (54:31.698)
Yeah. I'm I'm more malleable when it comes to direction. Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (54:35.234)
Yes. My my house is full of not malleables. and to you know, just like to embrace that rather than fight against it all the time.
Fighting against it sucks and it's like it just leads to sad tears.
Lauren Ammon (54:52.403)
Lauren Ammon (54:56.434)
Yeah. You know, and I have the opposite. The only my oldest son is the only one in our family of four who has a defined G through the channel of rhythm and the design of being in the flow. And in understanding those mechanics, well, first of all, he compromises his brother. His brother I can't remember. I think his brother has gate 15. and so I can see, like now that I know this about them, I can see where the younger ones like.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (55:07.174)
Mm.
Lauren Ammon (55:27.21)
just gonna no it's not your flow well no it is his flow it's your older brother's flow and we all have to
Work within it. And you know, when my son is in the house, if it's his flow, it's his flow. And I don't fight it. And I don't, I don't, I don't want any parent not to be like, I'm just like, you can do whatever you want. That's not what I mean by if you know me as a parent, that is not at all what I mean. It's more of I recognize he owns that energetically. So it only makes my life more miserable when I'm trying to butt up against that and and try to.
force my flow onto him. Whereas because I have nothing related to that channel, I can just sit back and watch him get into his flow, which actually becomes a shared experience that when he responds correctly and is in his flow, actually the rest of us can find our flow because it's kind of a shared mechanic.
And so as long as we're all operating correctly, we all get into our own flow because he correctly got into the flow. And it's kind of like, well, this is kind of cool. We're all doing our own thing, just you know, whatever, simply because, you know, son number one is doing what he's supposed to be doing or what he's designed to be doing. So it's understanding those kinds of mechanics because I oftentimes when you when you start to learn the mechanics of of your closest partnerships, your partner, your spouse, your kids, your siblings.
The sometimes your best friends, whoo! Can it be frustrating in the beginning? Absolutely. Is it liberating after a while? Absolutely. Because once you understand the mechanics, you can be like, okay, you're fine. You go do your thing. I'm just gonna stay over here and do mine. I don't have to get involved if I don't want to. Yeah. And that's again a reciprocity.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (57:15.814)
Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (57:21.358)
Yes. Yes. Reciprocity and you know, I mean, we a lot of times we think of maybe the surface level definition is like I give this, you give that. You know, I get I I give, then I get. You give, then you get. Maybe feels like the surface level level reciprocity. But I think the deeper, right? If we go, what's the next level? It is I see you, you see me.
Lauren Ammon (57:35.028)
Yes.
Lauren Ammon (57:46.75)
Yes. And we let each other.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (57:49.219)
And that's I yeah, that I think that's the deepest level of reciproc reciprocity is I s and even more, I see you and all of you, and I welcome and accept all of you. You see me and you welcome and accept all of me. That's that's the truth. That's the reciprocity that allows us to then build.
The structures and systems that, you know, channel prosperity, channel money, channel our time, channel our energy.
into creating a life that actually works for everyone.
That's really special.
Lauren Ammon (58:38.654)
Yes. And see
Hannah Chapman, CFP (58:42.138)
Can't see.
And that's it. That's all we got. And but we are we are in this energy. We're in Libra for until September 29th. Mercury is in Libra until September 29th. so I think we can I I that I think that's probably even a good place to pick back up. is is diving deeper into reciprocity. next time. Because again, right, it's like money, money is the surface.
Lauren Ammon (58:46.81)
That's it. That's all fun.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (59:14.617)
Money is the
Lauren Ammon (59:18.654)
Gateway? Good.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (59:19.818)
It's more it's it's maybe even like like the gas in the tank. Right? It's that's the that it's like the thing that like like facilitates the movement. It's the fuel, it's the w it's the water in the river, it's the gas in the tank, it's the it's the thing that keeps things propelled, moving forward. and so yeah, like reciprocity. What is what does reciprocity mean?
Lauren Ammon (59:31.326)
Yeah, it's the fuel.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (59:49.07)
within that on that deeper level. I think we can make a little note. Talk about that for next time. So but we have to get going. Love, love, love having this conversation with you. our dear listener, however one of you there are, I don't know. Just pretend we're talking specifically to you. You're the only one. You're the only one in the audience just listening. Thank you for being here. Thank you, Lauren, for being here with me.
Lauren Ammon (59:54.442)
Well deal. Excellent.
Lauren Ammon (01:00:13.631)
Yeah.
Hannah Chapman, CFP (01:00:18.118)
And we'll see you next time.
