The digested read: Why Don't Students Like School? by Daniel Willingham

WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to Education Sense with myself
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David Marshall and Isabel Rich. We are just delighted
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to be starting this opening episode discussing
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a well -read classic of the education world.
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Yes, we're returning to Daniel Willingham's Why
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Don't Students Like School? Together with us
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today in the Education Sense studio is teacher
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and colleague Steph Vega. She is EDI coordinator
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and head of constructive thinking. Hi Steph and
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welcome. It's a pleasure to have you on the pod
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and talking to us about the book today. Thanks.
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I'm really looking forward to chatting. Now,
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hold on a second, David. You mentioned opening
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episode. I think we need to share some exciting
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news with our listeners before we crack on. We
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say opening episode because not only is this
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the start of a new season for us, but we're also
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publishing under a new name. Education Sense.
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The Rest is Education was our previous name and
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you might say it was just sailing a little too
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close to a teeny tiny podcast brand that Gary
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Lineker might own, Goalhanger Podcasts. Anyway,
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it's just the name that's really changed. Our
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ambitions are still the same. It's meant to be,
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and we hope this one will be, a practical podcast
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about the world of education by teachers for
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teachers. During the series we plan to do some
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digested reads about famous tomes from the world
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of education, like this one today, and we may
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well interview some experts, and there are going
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to be some where we just have a chat about something
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that's caught our eye. Anyway, back to today,
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David. Yes, thanks Isabelle, and back to it.
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So, Daniel Willingham's book is called Why Don't
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Students Like School? Let's do a quick summary
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of what this book is about for those who don't
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know. The title suggests a raft of reasons why
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students might not like school. I think some
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listeners could probably think of a few for themselves.
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Here, with this book, the focus is on neuroscience
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and cognitive psychology. So the reason why we
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find learning so hard. Essentially, as Daniel
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Willingham sums up at the start, thinking is
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really hard for humans. Our brains are not very
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good at thinking and the less you know, the harder
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it is. That means that children who know less
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find thinking harder than adults and therefore
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find school difficult. Because in order to learn,
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we've got to think. Did I do OK with that really
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brief summary? Yes, and I just think it's such
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a great book that has a title that really grabs
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you in. I mean, who doesn't want to read a book
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called Why Don't Students Like School and get
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stuck in? Thankfully, it's so positive, though.
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It's such a great read because it gives you so
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many practical tips as a teacher about how you
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can really get children to enjoy their learning
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process. Absolutely, and just to give a bit of
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history as well, the original came out in 2009,
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which does feel a long time ago now, and in 2021
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he re -released a second edition. It's quite
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a lot of the same content, but some updated sections
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we'll be talking about. There's a chapter on
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technology, for example, and today we're going
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to be doing this sort of digestive read, as Isabel
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said, returning to the text with our education
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caps on and asking questions such as, is it still
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relevant and what can we learn from our re -read?
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Steph, you've suggested an approach we could
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take to discussing why don't students like school
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based on the Harvard Project Zero thinking routines.
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Would you be able to tell us a bit about how
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that works? Yeah, for sure. I thought to get
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started, I might just give a little bit of context.
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So Project Zero is a research center that grew
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out of Harvard School of Education. A large focus
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of their research is how we make thinking visible
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to demystify thinking and understanding, and
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the beauty of their work is that, like Daniel
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Willingham, they accompany research with tools
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to use in the classroom, as Isabelle mentioned.
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The idea of thinking routines is that they are,
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and I'm lifting straight from their website here,
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a set of questions or a brief sequence of steps
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used to scaffold and support student thinking.
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So, as students of education still ourselves,
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I thought this routine would support our independent
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and our collective thinking as we prepared for
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this and as we do this digestive read together
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now. So connect, extend, challenge, which is
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the thinking routine we're going to be using
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to structure our conversations today, pretty
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much does exactly what it says on the tin. It
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asks learners what connections they have between
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the context and their own knowledge or experiences.
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how the new learning has extended their thinking
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about what they already know or has encouraged
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new thinking that they hadn't considered before.
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And finally, what new challenges or questions
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they have now. Yeah, really thorough. And so
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we've got this kind of, I think Daniel Willingham
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would like this, we've got a way of approaching
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the conversation and effectively we're going
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to start with connect. For me, I understood this
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as being talking about when we first read it,
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when we first came across it and what the impact
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was on our teaching. Isabel, I don't know if
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you want to go first. Yeah, I was thinking about
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the fact that it was when, David, you and I worked
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together. I'm thinking we kind of came across
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the book at the same time. It was when we were
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knee deep. teaching lots of lessons, really ploughing
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through it. And I enjoyed reading the book because
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for me, it allowed me to take a moment and stop
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and think about some of the theories behind how
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we learn and the cognitive process that's involved
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with that, which I really enjoyed. And as you'll
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find out as we discuss and deep dive into some
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of the thoughts later on, he writes it in such
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a way that it's easy to understand. which I loved.
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But then I suppose for me the really powerful
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thing that stuck with me was that there was such
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brilliant practical tips about how to implement
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these theories in the classroom to make you a
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better teacher. It was a sort of advice that
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works for all learners. It feels like it was
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just such a powerful way of trying to really
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enhance how children learn in terms of what they
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might remember and making that process potentially
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a bit easier for them. And also, I guess, in
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today's world, with the rise of children with
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ADHD as well, which is becoming so prevalent,
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I feel like it's a really topical thing to cover
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again today when we think about the cognitive
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mind and how it's working. So I remember the
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moment well, David, you and I getting stuck into
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this book as part of the Thinking School Drive
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team. And I really felt it was useful for my
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classroom practice. David, how about you? Yeah,
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I mean, I think it's around, I was trying to
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pin it down to a time, but I would say it's probably
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around 2014. I'm going to just mention our deputy
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head academic back then, who's actually also
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deputy head at my school now, Mark Maddox, total
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legend of a teacher and a leader. He introduced
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me to a bunch of educational thinkers like John
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Hattie and Daniel Willingham. And I think it
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was around the time I started attending events
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like the Wellington College Festival of Education.
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And I've been pretty focused on pedagogy in English
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up till then. And I come from a secondary English
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teaching background. So that was very much my
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world of pedagogy from there. And then this whole
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new area of education ideas started to open up
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when I read things like, why don't students like
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school? And I think the one thing that really
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first I used practically straight in the classroom
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was this idea of getting children to think about
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the meaning of words. So of course this is part
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and parcel of being an English teacher, similar
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to kind of if you're doing modern foreign languages
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or classical language teaching, you know, building
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up word knowledge is absolutely crucial. But
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I think what Willingham's book gave me was a
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kind of understanding of how that works and why
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it's so important that the children develop this
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knowledge of language. Why in order to get children
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to remember a word or meaning and how it fits
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to other words you get them to think about. You
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get them to think about that meaning and he talks
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a lot about this cognitive principle memory is
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a residue of thought. In other words, if you
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don't think about something, you won't remember
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it. And if you think about something, whatever
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it is, whether it's like an advert on TV or your
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history lesson, and the causes behind the Second
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World War, those are the things you're going
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to remember. And something about that thinking
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links up the working memory with the long term
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memory and enables that, that ease of transfer.
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And him talking about that from as a cognitive
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psychologist gave me this sort of platform to
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build on my teaching. And instantly I went to
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the classroom and started getting children just
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doing a simple thing like is this word positive
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or negative, which is something he talks about
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in the book. And that then is, it was an easy
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way in for me to sort of say, oh, I can use this
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directly in my lessons. That makes sense. Steph,
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what about you? I think you've come across this
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book in myriad of ways as an educator, is that
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right? Yeah, I think I've come across the concepts
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that are raised in this book, but I hadn't actually
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come across the book, though I have like you
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from Mark Maddox, our lovely deputy head. I came
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across Daniel Willingham because of him. But
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the book itself was new to me. What's interesting
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listening to the two of you is that your connections
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you're making are from the first time you read
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it to now. And I would imagine you're making
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links to how your practice changed then and then
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coming back to it now and seeing the new things
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that it brings. For me, what's been interesting
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when I was reflecting on what connections I was
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making, it was largely around how does this text
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and research connect to the research that I've
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been doing. And a large part of that has been
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around making thinking visible. So it was quite
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exciting as I got started to feel like this consolidated
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what I was already learning, whilst also, as
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we'll talk about later, extending my thinking
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a lot. What really captured me at the beginning
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was his quote, people are naturally curious,
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but not naturally good thinkers. And I feel like
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as someone who's been so embedded in thinking
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about thinking recently, it was good to take
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a step back and realize, oh, yeah, this is not
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something that people are actually good at. So
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I actually found it quite funny how critical
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he was from the outset and essentially was saying,
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we suck at this, but what can we do about it?
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So I really liked that he then explained that
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we should focus on seeing versus thinking, that
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seeing is harder. Machines can think now or solve
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problems, but we haven't been able to program,
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for example, a car to drive as well as humans
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because they don't see the way we do. So movement
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isn't as fluid with machines. And I love that
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imagery because it immediately made made me make
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a connection with my learning around making thinking
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visible, because their deep dive into thinking
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has led them to come up with these eight thinking
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moves that they feel are central to building
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understanding. And just for context, those are
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seeing, noticing, describing what's there, wondering
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and questioning, considering different viewpoints
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and perspectives, reasoning with evidence, uncovering
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complexity, making connections as we're doing
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now. building explanations and interpretations,
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and capturing the heart and form and conclusions.
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And though these aren't necessarily hierarchical,
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seeing or observing and noticing and describing
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what's there is the first move. And when I explore
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these with students, we often laugh that really
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you can't do any of these others if you haven't
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first engaged with the material that you're thinking
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about, looking at it or listening to it, however
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you can soak it in. I started to make more connections
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between these thinking moves or routines, which
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I mentioned in the introduction, which we're
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doing right now, these steps to support our thinking,
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and how we teach these to people who aren't naturally
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good thinkers. The part I found most interesting
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was Willingham's focus on creating a reliable
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memory system. So if we work on teaching these
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routines or these thinking moves, then eventually
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they become so habitual that they sit comfortably
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in memory and then they don't take up a big part
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of our working memory, which is a large part
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of what he talks about as well, is that we have
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such little working memory space that it's helpful
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if things are already in our memory. Like Daniel
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Willingham said, though much more eloquently
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than I am about to, we suck at this. So how can
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we help? And I feel like the connection that
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he was making to what I've been exploring already
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is we teach people how to think. Oh, you've just
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summarized it so well, Steph, and brought out
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some of the really interesting parts of the book,
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I think. We've just touched on this concept of
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the fact that naturally, humans suck at thinking,
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to use your American expression. sounds terrible
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on an English accent like mine, but never mind.
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It's a really interesting point, isn't it? The
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idea that the brains are intelligently lazy.
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There's some analogy somewhere that it's kind
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of the equivalent that if you're asked to do
00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:20.179
press ups or something, you definitely opt for
00:13:20.179 --> 00:13:22.519
the version on your knees rather than in a full
00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:25.639
plank position. So we now know that students
00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:28.779
including ourselves, are inherently lazy little
00:13:28.779 --> 00:13:31.279
thinkers. And what do we do to overcome it in
00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:33.539
the classroom? I feel like you had some really
00:13:33.539 --> 00:13:35.860
useful tips that would be great to share with
00:13:35.860 --> 00:13:39.120
our listeners about how to do that. David, what
00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:41.559
did you feel like some of the useful tips that
00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:44.399
you give on that perspective were? Yeah, no,
00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:46.740
I was just thinking about just going back a step
00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:49.759
about your statement that it was that we're inherently
00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:52.259
lazy. And I agree, he definitely does catch it
00:13:52.259 --> 00:13:55.309
like that, and that we're not good at thinking
00:13:55.309 --> 00:13:57.929
that's absolutely the fundamental point of the
00:13:57.929 --> 00:14:01.389
whole book. But what I do like as well is how
00:14:01.389 --> 00:14:04.409
he talks about the way our brain works is that
00:14:04.409 --> 00:14:06.669
we will retrieve something from memory rather
00:14:06.669 --> 00:14:08.690
than think about something. And I think he's
00:14:08.690 --> 00:14:10.970
very positive about human beings and their ability
00:14:10.970 --> 00:14:14.029
to put things in memory and store them there.
00:14:14.049 --> 00:14:16.009
And he does say, you know, our long term memory
00:14:16.009 --> 00:14:18.470
is potentially infinite, we don't really know,
00:14:18.809 --> 00:14:20.629
it's the working memory that's the tricky part.
00:14:20.889 --> 00:14:26.769
It then comes back to the knowledge and, okay,
00:14:26.990 --> 00:14:29.250
remembering that every new class you teach doesn't
00:14:29.250 --> 00:14:31.690
have the knowledge until you teach it to them.
00:14:32.029 --> 00:14:33.730
You know, the children, the children I teach,
00:14:34.230 --> 00:14:36.529
they are already in my classes, they're about
00:14:36.529 --> 00:14:41.429
9 to 11, and they do have an extraordinary amount
00:14:41.429 --> 00:14:44.750
of knowledge of so many different things, but
00:14:44.750 --> 00:14:48.059
there are going to be big gaps in their concepts
00:14:48.059 --> 00:14:51.039
at that age because there's just things that
00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:53.019
I need to know that they don't know. Does that
00:14:53.019 --> 00:14:57.820
make sense? So the purpose of having then a strong
00:14:57.820 --> 00:15:00.200
curriculum is to identify those gaps that are
00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:02.980
useful for the subject to proceed beyond year
00:15:02.980 --> 00:15:05.279
six level so that the year seven and eight teachers
00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:08.299
can take them on. and to make sure those gaps
00:15:08.299 --> 00:15:11.379
are filled and that sounds like easy to say but
00:15:11.379 --> 00:15:14.580
it really isn't easy to do because because children
00:15:14.580 --> 00:15:17.240
forget and you can teach them something and then
00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:19.340
you come back and you you know they say they
00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:23.440
haven't learned it so i guess i would come back
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:27.259
as a tip first big tip is repetition willingham
00:15:27.259 --> 00:15:29.940
says that repetition isn't going to do it on
00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:32.230
its own because you can repeat something repeat
00:15:32.230 --> 00:15:35.549
something and still not it not work so it has
00:15:35.549 --> 00:15:38.710
to be repeated in a way that's going to connect
00:15:38.710 --> 00:15:41.649
up to already existing knowledge I feel like
00:15:41.649 --> 00:15:44.830
that's a lot of what cyclical curriculums are
00:15:44.830 --> 00:15:47.809
for using like terminology that people use now
00:15:47.809 --> 00:15:50.129
for curriculum design is it's very much based
00:15:50.129 --> 00:15:52.649
on that idea that you're explaining and he describes
00:15:52.649 --> 00:15:56.029
is repetition in the moment is one boring so
00:15:56.029 --> 00:15:57.970
it's not going to engage them for very long but
00:15:57.970 --> 00:16:00.950
also like you said it's If we do it all now in
00:16:00.950 --> 00:16:02.690
this burst and then we never come back to it,
00:16:02.889 --> 00:16:04.809
well, good luck in coming back to it three or
00:16:04.809 --> 00:16:06.809
four years later that they're not going to remember.
00:16:07.509 --> 00:16:11.370
So that little and often and kind of coming back
00:16:11.370 --> 00:16:14.110
to it in this cycle at greater depth a little
00:16:14.110 --> 00:16:18.110
bit each time. I think you're right. And I think
00:16:18.110 --> 00:16:20.570
this is a really important part of the book that
00:16:20.570 --> 00:16:22.870
he covers in chapter two, which is about this
00:16:22.870 --> 00:16:26.429
idea that you do need some factual knowledge.
00:16:26.649 --> 00:16:30.389
before you can do certain skills. And there has
00:16:30.389 --> 00:16:33.929
been a lot of chatter within curriculum to ensure
00:16:33.929 --> 00:16:36.909
that children and students are learning skills.
00:16:37.389 --> 00:16:40.210
It's all skills, skills, skills. And facts have
00:16:40.210 --> 00:16:42.490
been kind of parked to one side a little bit
00:16:42.490 --> 00:16:45.250
at times. He really believes that you do need
00:16:45.250 --> 00:16:47.389
to have a fairly good secure knowledge base in
00:16:47.389 --> 00:16:50.169
place. And certainly as someone who teaches English,
00:16:50.350 --> 00:16:53.470
there's a classic example when it comes to doing
00:16:53.470 --> 00:16:55.350
comprehension. I mean, actually, you don't even
00:16:55.350 --> 00:16:56.669
need to be an English class, you can just be
00:16:56.669 --> 00:16:58.470
actually reading a book at home or watching a
00:16:58.470 --> 00:17:02.480
movie. There is inherent... need for knowledge
00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:04.980
to be able to understand the inferences of anything
00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:08.359
that's going on. I have a text, which I do very
00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.359
frequently with my poor little tutis, which is
00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:15.900
all about two gold miners in the 19th century
00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:18.200
Arctic circle. You can imagine how miserable
00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.460
that was, cold, with zero kind of like puffer
00:17:21.460 --> 00:17:24.299
jackets and electricity. Not only is it extremely
00:17:24.299 --> 00:17:26.660
cold so that their beards get icicles on them,
00:17:26.660 --> 00:17:29.259
but they also have feet that are plagued with
00:17:29.259 --> 00:17:32.630
blisters. and this phrase plagued with blisters
00:17:32.630 --> 00:17:35.829
comes up in the text because the students are
00:17:35.829 --> 00:17:39.680
asked to look at a paragraph and explain how
00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:43.500
the author has made being in the Arctic Circle
00:17:43.500 --> 00:17:46.500
seem unpleasant. Now clearly at one level you
00:17:46.500 --> 00:17:49.579
can say that the gold miners had blisters, that
00:17:49.579 --> 00:17:52.339
would be fine, but if you know from your factual
00:17:52.339 --> 00:17:55.880
knowledge base that the plague was a really unpleasant
00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:58.819
illness that you got in previous times where
00:17:58.819 --> 00:18:01.980
you died of it and everyone caught it, you could
00:18:01.980 --> 00:18:04.420
make a much deeper connection and suggestion
00:18:04.420 --> 00:18:07.660
that the author uses the word plagued with blisters.
00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:10.259
to denote that there were a perhaps a lot of
00:18:10.259 --> 00:18:12.420
blisters because the plague killed lots of people
00:18:12.420 --> 00:18:15.220
but also that it was deeply unpleasant and associated
00:18:15.220 --> 00:18:19.019
with death like the plague and that is a perfect
00:18:19.019 --> 00:18:23.299
example it's a very narrow example of just how
00:18:23.299 --> 00:18:26.299
general knowledge background knowledge factual
00:18:26.299 --> 00:18:30.140
knowledge can enhance the ability to do a skill
00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:33.960
which is to analyze the text of a piece of writing
00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.430
and it's like What can you do about this? How
00:18:37.430 --> 00:18:39.349
can you increase general knowledge? David and
00:18:39.349 --> 00:18:43.730
I used to spend ages telling parents how important
00:18:43.730 --> 00:18:46.490
general knowledge was to be able to pass secondary
00:18:46.490 --> 00:18:48.970
school assessment exams. If you were going for
00:18:48.970 --> 00:18:51.769
a grammar school test or the dreaded 11 plus
00:18:51.769 --> 00:18:54.970
or a pre -test. And we used to say you have got
00:18:54.970 --> 00:18:56.970
to get general knowledge into them from an early
00:18:56.970 --> 00:19:00.940
age to help them be able to read. um well and
00:19:00.940 --> 00:19:03.400
how do you do that while you read and you discuss
00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:05.859
things with parents but you go and visit cool
00:19:05.859 --> 00:19:09.579
things you watch interesting tv shows there's
00:19:09.579 --> 00:19:12.940
a whole way of learning how to get general knowledge
00:19:12.940 --> 00:19:15.420
into children that's fun and engaging and it's
00:19:15.420 --> 00:19:18.059
so important to sit alongside learning skills
00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:22.359
so i found that chapter really useful and it's
00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:24.359
actually something that's super easy to enact
00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:26.759
in the classroom as well now i was just going
00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:29.509
to say if i feel I was going to pick up on your
00:19:29.509 --> 00:19:31.190
comment about skills based education, because
00:19:31.190 --> 00:19:33.650
it's funny how education goes through fads and
00:19:33.650 --> 00:19:37.650
we forget the theory that we're rooted in. I
00:19:37.650 --> 00:19:39.769
might misquote this, but I think it was Dewey
00:19:39.769 --> 00:19:42.170
who talked about we can't think without without
00:19:42.170 --> 00:19:44.769
anything to think about essentially without context.
00:19:45.029 --> 00:19:49.450
And I think sometimes we forget that when we're
00:19:49.450 --> 00:19:52.970
following some new shiny object, which in the
00:19:52.970 --> 00:19:55.009
last decade, I think has been very much skills
00:19:55.009 --> 00:19:59.140
based education. And I think Ultimately what
00:19:59.140 --> 00:20:01.059
we need to remember is we have to give things
00:20:01.059 --> 00:20:04.599
for them to practice these skills with. And so
00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:08.720
one of the ways beyond reading or engaging with
00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:11.420
content at home, which their parents can help
00:20:11.420 --> 00:20:13.839
facilitate, is for us as educators to think very
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:16.660
carefully about the provocations we provide for
00:20:16.660 --> 00:20:20.099
learning. So if we're going to practice this
00:20:20.099 --> 00:20:22.359
particular skill or teach them to think in a
00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:24.200
specific way, whether it be making connections
00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:27.240
as we're doing or thinking about building understanding
00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:31.039
through building explanations, are we providing
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:35.839
a range of content and context for them to explore
00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:39.380
and slowly add to their memory to engage with?
00:20:39.609 --> 00:20:42.849
Yeah, I totally agree. And I love this idea about
00:20:42.849 --> 00:20:46.349
engaging with stuff. Because for me, that's another
00:20:46.349 --> 00:20:51.230
massive part of this book is students can't be
00:20:51.230 --> 00:20:54.269
passive learners on this journey. You know, we
00:20:54.269 --> 00:20:57.309
should all have our hearts are sinking if we're
00:20:57.309 --> 00:21:00.230
just going to have students reading from a textbook
00:21:00.230 --> 00:21:03.509
and maybe highlighting things, it's just not
00:21:03.509 --> 00:21:05.690
active enough for them. And it goes back to this
00:21:05.690 --> 00:21:08.670
point about you know, is inherently needing to
00:21:08.670 --> 00:21:11.029
think about what we're learning. That comes up
00:21:11.029 --> 00:21:14.269
time and time again in the book. And I feel like
00:21:14.269 --> 00:21:18.269
he gives some really easy tips about how we can
00:21:18.269 --> 00:21:20.849
get them to think. I seem to remember, David,
00:21:21.349 --> 00:21:24.069
you and I getting pretty hung up on the idea
00:21:24.069 --> 00:21:28.450
that he mentions turning lessons into questions.
00:21:28.950 --> 00:21:32.210
And I am almost certain that we had a phase during
00:21:32.210 --> 00:21:36.259
our English planning where every lesson was a
00:21:36.259 --> 00:21:39.140
question. There was no learning objective any
00:21:39.140 --> 00:21:41.740
longer. It was a question that we were on a mission
00:21:41.740 --> 00:21:44.799
to answer. And, you know, I still remember at
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:47.380
the time, and this was a while ago now, I remember
00:21:47.380 --> 00:21:51.140
us thinking how easy it was to do, but how effective
00:21:51.140 --> 00:21:55.200
it was for the children to have a question about
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:58.059
what they were learning about to turn rather
00:21:58.059 --> 00:22:00.220
than just having a learning objective. You know,
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.089
we are learning to use full stops. for some reason,
00:22:04.250 --> 00:22:07.450
to just change it into, how do we use full stops?
00:22:08.549 --> 00:22:11.430
It immediately feels so much more engaging if
00:22:11.430 --> 00:22:13.150
you're sitting in the classroom and listening.
00:22:13.569 --> 00:22:16.089
And we kind of giggled at the fact it was such
00:22:16.089 --> 00:22:18.869
an easy little fix to make the lesson immediately
00:22:18.869 --> 00:22:22.390
seem a little bit more collaborative and together.
00:22:23.390 --> 00:22:26.450
Yeah, definitely. And there's, I think... What
00:22:26.450 --> 00:22:28.109
Daniel Williams is so good about throughout the
00:22:28.109 --> 00:22:30.990
book is he gives you this cognitive science,
00:22:31.190 --> 00:22:33.670
but he's so humble about the way he presents
00:22:33.670 --> 00:22:36.950
it. He's never saying do this or do that. There's
00:22:36.950 --> 00:22:39.490
very few things that he says are absolutely wrong
00:22:39.490 --> 00:22:42.089
to do in the classroom. And so whatever, you
00:22:42.089 --> 00:22:44.289
know, we might bring to it, like, you know, the
00:22:44.289 --> 00:22:46.170
getting children to think about the whether word
00:22:46.170 --> 00:22:48.390
is positive or negative or turning the lesson
00:22:48.390 --> 00:22:50.230
objective into questions. These things he would
00:22:50.230 --> 00:22:52.089
say these are valid things to do in the classroom
00:22:52.089 --> 00:22:54.630
because they're your experience of your practice
00:22:54.630 --> 00:22:57.589
as a craft. I'm a cognitive scientist. He says,
00:22:57.650 --> 00:23:00.250
I'm not a teacher. And, you know, I defer to
00:23:00.250 --> 00:23:02.069
you when it comes to decide what's actually going
00:23:02.069 --> 00:23:05.029
to be the best way to get these children learning.
00:23:05.490 --> 00:23:07.650
But here are a few cognitive tips that you might
00:23:07.650 --> 00:23:10.029
think about, which really is how the brain does
00:23:10.029 --> 00:23:15.069
work. I think, yeah, if I, if I'd say kind of
00:23:15.069 --> 00:23:17.150
about 10 years or so, 11 years on from when I
00:23:17.150 --> 00:23:18.970
first read it, where has that brought my teaching
00:23:18.970 --> 00:23:21.369
practice? And I, I guess, Steph, in terms of
00:23:21.369 --> 00:23:22.890
the thinking routine, we're kind of moving into
00:23:22.890 --> 00:23:25.329
the extended a little bit here. I hope that sort
00:23:25.329 --> 00:23:27.349
of feels like the right space for it now. But
00:23:27.349 --> 00:23:35.049
it feels like it's naturalized my teaching, wherein
00:23:35.049 --> 00:23:37.349
the planning, the teaching itself and the assessment
00:23:37.349 --> 00:23:39.250
are kind of rolled up a little bit more into
00:23:39.250 --> 00:23:43.849
one. And there's less this kind of rigid planning.
00:23:44.369 --> 00:23:47.910
I mean, I still do these quite sort of compartmentalized
00:23:47.910 --> 00:23:50.269
lesson plans. But I think the actual the way
00:23:50.269 --> 00:23:52.809
in which it flows, it doesn't feel like I'm having
00:23:52.809 --> 00:23:55.490
to remember to put this in or put this in the
00:23:55.490 --> 00:23:57.490
cognitive principles, some of them that he's
00:23:57.490 --> 00:23:59.569
talked about have become part of the way I teach
00:23:59.569 --> 00:24:01.410
not all of them. And I'm not saying I'm doing
00:24:01.410 --> 00:24:03.470
it brilliantly, or as a model of how it should
00:24:03.470 --> 00:24:05.890
be done, but just it's kind of integrated now.
00:24:06.390 --> 00:24:08.349
It's interesting that you describe it that way,
00:24:08.430 --> 00:24:09.990
because there's this whole chunk in the book
00:24:09.990 --> 00:24:12.630
where he describes actually a part that I've
00:24:12.589 --> 00:24:14.569
when I first heard I was like, I don't know if
00:24:14.569 --> 00:24:17.230
I agree with this, because he talked about not
00:24:17.230 --> 00:24:20.630
teaching children to be experts in the field
00:24:20.630 --> 00:24:23.130
because essentially they are not experts. So
00:24:23.130 --> 00:24:25.829
stop trying to teach kids in science to be scientists
00:24:25.829 --> 00:24:29.630
or in writing to be writers, because ultimately
00:24:30.370 --> 00:24:33.009
experts have exactly what you've just described
00:24:33.009 --> 00:24:36.549
you feel you have that just innate understanding
00:24:36.549 --> 00:24:41.009
of how to structure and scaffold learning. So
00:24:41.009 --> 00:24:43.910
it's not this thing that you have to write out
00:24:43.910 --> 00:24:46.269
the minutiae of every single lesson because it's
00:24:46.269 --> 00:24:50.509
very much a part of your expertise now. So yeah,
00:24:50.630 --> 00:24:52.710
it's just, it's interesting to hear you describe
00:24:52.710 --> 00:24:55.630
yourself and connect it back to an element of
00:24:55.630 --> 00:24:58.119
the book that he's described as well. I think
00:24:58.119 --> 00:25:01.559
it's okay to have that as an aim. I mean, we
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:04.539
do want children to become experts in what we're
00:25:04.539 --> 00:25:07.259
doing, but I also have to acknowledge that by
00:25:07.259 --> 00:25:09.779
the age of 11, when the children leave our school,
00:25:10.420 --> 00:25:13.700
they are not experts at what I'm teaching them.
00:25:14.180 --> 00:25:18.299
They are really, you know, I like to think they're
00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:20.599
a lot better at it than they were, and I know
00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:22.539
they're a lot better at it, and they can do things
00:25:22.539 --> 00:25:24.819
they could never do. when they enter the classroom
00:25:24.819 --> 00:25:27.119
at the beginning of the year or two years before.
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:31.740
But I do like the concept of thinking like a
00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:33.400
scientist and I do like the concept of talking
00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:34.700
like a scientist. I don't think there's anything
00:25:34.700 --> 00:25:38.880
wrong with that. Same. Yeah, I mean, I think,
00:25:39.700 --> 00:25:42.819
and I think this is where I would say a different
00:25:42.819 --> 00:25:46.799
educational pedagogy comes in. Actually, this
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:49.359
is about how we can step into role and how we
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:51.680
can play and children love to play. You know,
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:54.059
this is just going a little bit away from willing
00:25:54.059 --> 00:25:55.940
them right now, but I think you can say to a
00:25:55.940 --> 00:25:57.960
child, you're playing as a scientist, you're
00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:00.380
stepping into role as a historian, you're going
00:26:00.380 --> 00:26:03.440
to be detective, or you're going to be a prosecutor
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:06.140
in this trial for Romeo and Juliet. Like, they
00:26:06.140 --> 00:26:08.880
get it. They may not be able to go up into the
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:11.920
kind of the king's court and defend or prosecute
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.299
somebody. Of course not. but they'll be able
00:26:14.299 --> 00:26:18.140
to from limited knowledge mimic what a prosecutor
00:26:18.140 --> 00:26:21.220
or what a detective does because again going
00:26:21.220 --> 00:26:23.140
back to Isabel your point there is a general
00:26:23.140 --> 00:26:25.160
knowledge around this and the more they've watched
00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:27.519
and read and seen and if we just show them a
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:29.200
little bit just a little bit of a kind of like
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:31.400
this is how you do it we can model it and say
00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:33.779
here's a few words you could use this is the
00:26:33.779 --> 00:26:35.579
language I want you to use you know what it can
00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:39.200
be both fun and they can start to get that vibe
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:41.650
of being like an expert I don't know what Wellingham
00:26:41.650 --> 00:26:43.150
would say about that. He'd probably agree with
00:26:43.150 --> 00:26:44.769
me, but there'd probably be a cognitive principle
00:26:44.769 --> 00:26:47.349
behind why he'd agree with me. I'm just sort
00:26:47.349 --> 00:26:50.970
of thinking about my thoughts today as well.
00:26:50.990 --> 00:26:55.250
And I'm going away from the expert thought here,
00:26:55.349 --> 00:26:59.170
and into another chapter that really chimes with
00:26:59.170 --> 00:27:02.650
what I do today, I guess, as someone who's tutoring,
00:27:03.269 --> 00:27:05.950
someone who offers advice to parents about education,
00:27:05.970 --> 00:27:08.029
and someone who goes and visits lots of different
00:27:08.029 --> 00:27:12.099
schools, reviewing them. And It's Willingham's
00:27:12.099 --> 00:27:15.299
chapter towards the end of the book, which is
00:27:15.299 --> 00:27:19.140
all about intelligence of children and whether
00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:21.960
intelligence can be changed, whether that's possible.
00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:25.099
And it really links in with Carol Dweck's thinking
00:27:25.099 --> 00:27:27.839
of growth mindset. It's particularly pertinent
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:31.039
to me because I have a daughter who definitely
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:33.859
struggles academically. She's only in key stage
00:27:33.859 --> 00:27:36.119
one at the moment, but we're really on a journey
00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:39.240
for realising quite how difficult it is. for
00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:41.839
her with her numeracy and her literacy and she's
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:44.000
sitting here with a mummy who has time who's
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:46.839
a trained teacher. So input is big and she's
00:27:46.839 --> 00:27:49.200
in a small class yet it's really tough for her.
00:27:49.339 --> 00:27:52.180
What I find totally fascinating with that with
00:27:52.180 --> 00:27:54.940
my mother hat on but also going around a lot
00:27:54.940 --> 00:27:57.920
of schools which are non -selective, particularly
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:00.599
secondary schools, students who find learning
00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:03.279
hard are being pumped through the GCSE system
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:06.490
and thinking how do you get students to that
00:28:06.490 --> 00:28:10.710
place and this idea of mindset that he touches
00:28:10.710 --> 00:28:14.430
upon I think is so important. I've always been
00:28:14.430 --> 00:28:17.750
a huge fan and I'm certainly am definitely now
00:28:17.750 --> 00:28:21.150
with my daughter about praising effort not ability
00:28:21.150 --> 00:28:25.430
and I feel like that is just such a fundamental
00:28:25.430 --> 00:28:28.470
thing to do for for students if you work in an
00:28:28.470 --> 00:28:30.890
environment where you've got very different academic
00:28:30.890 --> 00:28:34.680
capabilities. getting children who may not find
00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:37.660
learning easy to realise that hard work can pay
00:28:37.660 --> 00:28:40.180
off because I'm going to be so controversial
00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:44.460
right now. Back, way back in time. I feel like
00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:47.680
it was just a given that you had to work hard
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:50.180
for school. It was boring, you worked, that was
00:28:50.180 --> 00:28:52.319
what you did. There weren't that many questions
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:54.680
about it. It's just what kind of had to happen.
00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:58.599
Nowadays, I feel that students, children have
00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:02.569
a bit more agency. They feel more equality with
00:29:02.569 --> 00:29:04.569
their adults around them, which is an amazing
00:29:04.569 --> 00:29:06.730
thing for them to have because that has many
00:29:06.730 --> 00:29:10.630
positives that sit alongside it. But it also
00:29:10.630 --> 00:29:13.289
means there's quite a lot of resistance. for
00:29:13.289 --> 00:29:14.950
them trying to do things that they don't want
00:29:14.950 --> 00:29:17.549
to do and that's what you experience at home
00:29:17.549 --> 00:29:20.230
with children maybe who find learning difficult
00:29:20.230 --> 00:29:22.930
and actually higher up in school where they refuse
00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:26.390
to go to school or they pull out of lessons all
00:29:26.390 --> 00:29:29.069
this kind of stuff is really prevalent now. Therefore
00:29:29.069 --> 00:29:31.490
schools have got a really important job but a
00:29:31.490 --> 00:29:34.930
tough job to make students realize actually you've
00:29:34.930 --> 00:29:38.680
got to work hard more often than not. and it's
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:42.059
effort, but it'll really pay off. You will see
00:29:42.059 --> 00:29:44.579
the results, but it's not easy. It's like training
00:29:44.579 --> 00:29:46.420
for a marathon. You've just got to keep going.
00:29:46.900 --> 00:29:50.380
So I really enjoyed that section of the book
00:29:50.380 --> 00:29:52.680
because it really chimes with today's world.
00:29:53.259 --> 00:29:55.720
And I feel like schools are putting in a lot
00:29:55.720 --> 00:30:00.150
of effort. to help with children's mindset across
00:30:00.150 --> 00:30:03.890
primary and secondary. And when things are wobbly
00:30:03.890 --> 00:30:06.710
and they don't go right, there's also a lot of
00:30:06.710 --> 00:30:09.029
support in place these days to try and catch
00:30:09.029 --> 00:30:10.930
those students and get them back on the right
00:30:10.930 --> 00:30:13.529
tracks. So for me, that's been a chapter that
00:30:13.529 --> 00:30:16.509
I really enjoyed rereading because it really
00:30:16.509 --> 00:30:19.250
chimes with what's going on today. And did you
00:30:19.250 --> 00:30:23.750
feel, Isabel, that rereading it and, I guess,
00:30:24.109 --> 00:30:27.200
hearing Carol Dweck's name mentioned again and
00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:28.700
growth mindset, which is something I haven't
00:30:28.700 --> 00:30:30.799
thought about for a little while because it feels
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:32.859
like a few years since that was sort of like
00:30:32.859 --> 00:30:37.079
a real hype. Did it did it change the way you
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:38.680
think about it? Or have you changed the way you
00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:40.019
think about it in that time, particularly since
00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:44.839
becoming a parent? It just makes me remind myself
00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:48.980
that you can't have you can't lower standards
00:30:48.980 --> 00:30:52.000
you've got to maintain high standards and in
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:54.019
fact one of the schools I visited last week which
00:30:54.019 --> 00:30:57.000
is non -selective it's an independent school
00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:00.039
that one they just said it doesn't matter who
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:02.019
you are when you're here we have high standards
00:31:02.019 --> 00:31:04.180
for you high standards in your work and in your
00:31:04.180 --> 00:31:08.200
behavior as a result the the students do really
00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:10.960
well because they try really hard to do as best
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:14.359
as they possibly can and It's just I guess I
00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:16.599
just needed reminding about that that the brain
00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:20.319
is elastic Intelligence is elastic to a point
00:31:20.829 --> 00:31:24.670
and we need to kind of push and stretch and sometimes
00:31:24.670 --> 00:31:27.769
also remind students that I tutor that learning
00:31:27.769 --> 00:31:30.150
can be a bit boring and it can be a little tough
00:31:30.150 --> 00:31:33.250
but that's just the way life goes. Some of it's
00:31:33.250 --> 00:31:35.569
super fun and we can make it as engaging as possible
00:31:35.569 --> 00:31:37.410
but there are other moments where you just have
00:31:37.410 --> 00:31:41.309
to try your best and dig deep I guess so yeah
00:31:41.309 --> 00:31:44.049
it has made me reconsider and be reminded about
00:31:44.049 --> 00:31:46.849
something about the way that we learn. I think
00:31:46.849 --> 00:31:48.950
it's interesting when we're thinking about this,
00:31:49.309 --> 00:31:51.269
the challenge of learning. And this is something
00:31:51.269 --> 00:31:55.089
that he picks up on in the book is if it is so
00:31:55.089 --> 00:31:57.930
hard, which it is, how do we make it easier?
00:31:58.349 --> 00:32:02.109
And it's by building these habits and this understanding
00:32:02.109 --> 00:32:04.349
that it's going to be hard, but also making the
00:32:04.349 --> 00:32:07.410
parts that we can as easy as possible through
00:32:08.309 --> 00:32:10.269
embedding them into our long -term memory. I
00:32:10.269 --> 00:32:12.589
know I've said it many times already just within
00:32:12.589 --> 00:32:14.710
this conversation, but that whole idea of creating
00:32:14.710 --> 00:32:16.730
thinking routines so that thinking is habit,
00:32:16.730 --> 00:32:19.049
and then we can just at least remove that piece
00:32:19.049 --> 00:32:22.250
of the puzzle. And then if we give facts and
00:32:22.250 --> 00:32:24.390
context and they're engaging with that constantly,
00:32:24.450 --> 00:32:26.130
then we're removing that piece of the puzzle.
00:32:26.190 --> 00:32:29.329
So constantly thinking about how do we make this
00:32:29.329 --> 00:32:32.349
very hard thing easier for the people in front
00:32:32.349 --> 00:32:35.589
of us so that they're curious and engaged and
00:32:35.589 --> 00:32:38.319
want to keep going. And one of the ways that
00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:42.180
he talks about doing that is something we've
00:32:42.180 --> 00:32:43.740
already talked about a little bit or touched
00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:45.880
on, which is phrasing things as a question, because
00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:48.339
then it's, well, we could go anywhere with this.
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:52.160
But still with the tools of, well, I could go
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:54.079
anywhere with this, knowing that I've got all
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:55.900
of these things in my back pocket, which I can
00:32:55.900 --> 00:32:59.160
easily call upon thinking routines and contexts
00:32:59.160 --> 00:33:02.839
that I already understand. It also makes me think
00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:06.039
of that idea of flow as well, because There is
00:33:06.039 --> 00:33:09.319
a threshold of boredom. If we're not challenging
00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:12.140
children, we're going to lose them. But if we're
00:33:12.140 --> 00:33:13.559
challenging them too much, we're also going to
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:16.599
lose them. So yes, Willingham says thinking is
00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:19.559
hard, but also he says it can be fun as well.
00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:21.799
And getting a problem when you're working on
00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:24.220
it, he says you get that kind of euphoric rush
00:33:24.220 --> 00:33:26.200
when you've kind of actually solved it yourself.
00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:28.200
And obviously this then leads to the learning,
00:33:28.500 --> 00:33:31.440
but he is stressing the hardness and the fun
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:34.369
at the same time. And coming back to Carol Dweck
00:33:34.369 --> 00:33:37.089
growth mindset, I loved all that stuff about
00:33:37.089 --> 00:33:40.009
the fact that our intelligence is not fixed.
00:33:40.490 --> 00:33:43.990
And, you know, it is, he says it is nurture and
00:33:43.990 --> 00:33:46.710
nature, but these days he said that we're, we're
00:33:46.710 --> 00:33:49.569
actually edging more towards the nurture as being
00:33:49.569 --> 00:33:51.670
the cause of our intelligence. And he goes into,
00:33:51.670 --> 00:33:53.750
it's quite complex, but he goes into quite a
00:33:53.750 --> 00:33:56.390
lot of twin studies and he gives examples of
00:33:56.390 --> 00:33:58.809
how something that in the past might have been
00:33:58.809 --> 00:34:02.349
seen to be because of DNA actually could be because
00:34:02.349 --> 00:34:04.450
of the way in which someone's brought up. And
00:34:04.450 --> 00:34:06.130
so therefore, it's really important to keep going
00:34:06.130 --> 00:34:08.849
back to the learning is hard. Therefore, we need
00:34:08.849 --> 00:34:11.050
to try and challenge ourselves by choosing the
00:34:11.050 --> 00:34:14.110
harder tasks. I think the sidebar on that one,
00:34:14.110 --> 00:34:17.469
though, is children with additional learning
00:34:17.469 --> 00:34:21.769
needs. I just, I'm not sure it is all down to
00:34:21.769 --> 00:34:24.130
environment. I can let you know when you know
00:34:24.130 --> 00:34:26.429
he doesn't say it is he doesn't say it is he
00:34:26.429 --> 00:34:29.230
just It's both. But he said that psychologists
00:34:29.230 --> 00:34:30.969
these days, and this is, I think, maybe in addition
00:34:30.969 --> 00:34:33.429
to the 2021 version, which wasn't in the 2009,
00:34:33.530 --> 00:34:37.170
I'm not sure. But that he said that these days,
00:34:37.289 --> 00:34:39.710
psychologists are edging slightly more towards
00:34:39.710 --> 00:34:43.010
the nurture. It's not that he's saying it's not
00:34:43.010 --> 00:34:46.090
DNA and genetics. Of course it is. But, you know,
00:34:46.289 --> 00:34:48.590
everybody is going to have different levels of
00:34:48.590 --> 00:34:50.489
ability and learning and speeds and things like
00:34:50.489 --> 00:34:53.309
this. Just I think it comes back to Carol Dweck
00:34:53.309 --> 00:34:55.369
is, you know, choosing tasks that are a little
00:34:55.369 --> 00:34:58.000
bit challenging for us. And if we do those things
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:00.280
and practice them enough in the right way, we're
00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.219
going to be able to do them more and more often.
00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:06.480
Yeah, that's true. Steph, do you want to move
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:09.900
us on to the final phase of this thinking process?
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:13.239
Absolutely. I think we've naturally woven connections
00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:15.880
and extensions together. So that kind of brings
00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:18.739
us to our final conversation about challenge.
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.679
What either challenged us and raised questions
00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:25.179
that we now are curious about and want to explore.
00:35:25.829 --> 00:35:28.710
or potentially a way that I like to look at this
00:35:28.710 --> 00:35:30.190
with students as well, which they quite enjoy,
00:35:30.349 --> 00:35:33.130
is there anything in the text that you want to
00:35:33.130 --> 00:35:35.429
challenge that you don't necessarily agree with?
00:35:35.510 --> 00:35:37.590
I really want to talk about technology because
00:35:37.590 --> 00:35:41.630
this is a new addition to the 2021 version, as
00:35:41.630 --> 00:35:43.530
you'd probably imagine, given that I think Willingham
00:35:43.530 --> 00:35:45.989
was writing in a pandemic, so we were all zooming
00:35:45.989 --> 00:35:48.969
around like crazy as teachers, and he hasn't
00:35:48.969 --> 00:35:53.070
quite got to AI, which is crazy because if you
00:35:53.070 --> 00:35:56.659
think about it, published in 2021, and then generative
00:35:56.659 --> 00:36:01.119
AI releases 2022 in a big way. But technology,
00:36:01.219 --> 00:36:04.239
I think this is the one that is going to be quite
00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:07.019
challenging for me to think about. Steph, you
00:36:07.019 --> 00:36:08.840
and I were talking a little bit about this, but
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:12.579
the real core of this technology is that this
00:36:12.579 --> 00:36:14.260
would apply to AI as well, even though he hasn't
00:36:14.260 --> 00:36:16.659
talked about it. Anything that is going to make
00:36:16.659 --> 00:36:20.099
thinking easier for you isn't necessarily going
00:36:20.099 --> 00:36:24.210
to help you learn. So technology can, of course,
00:36:24.469 --> 00:36:27.289
aid you, but it's not going to be the magic bullet
00:36:27.289 --> 00:36:29.809
that we are all looking for in learning because
00:36:29.809 --> 00:36:31.849
you've got to do the thinking yourself in order
00:36:31.849 --> 00:36:33.570
to come back to that principle memories, the
00:36:33.570 --> 00:36:35.550
residue of thought. You have to do the thinking
00:36:35.550 --> 00:36:38.070
yourself in order to have the benefit of having
00:36:38.070 --> 00:36:40.809
things in your head. And also, as he kind of
00:36:40.809 --> 00:36:42.690
makes the point far more eloquently than me,
00:36:43.010 --> 00:36:44.070
you kind of have to know what you're looking
00:36:44.070 --> 00:36:45.730
up before you can look it up because there's
00:36:45.730 --> 00:36:48.190
a lot of disinformation out on the internet and
00:36:48.190 --> 00:36:50.860
also the way in which we bring it together is
00:36:50.860 --> 00:36:52.480
different to the way in which a computer brings
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:56.179
things together. So his reminder for us when
00:36:56.179 --> 00:36:57.860
it comes to technology is keep coming back to
00:36:57.860 --> 00:36:59.400
the problems you're trying to solve, keep going
00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:01.440
back to the questions you want to ask, which
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:03.480
I think is open enough that it allows for any
00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:06.179
technology to be discussed in that context and
00:37:06.179 --> 00:37:09.320
doesn't have to be limited to pre -AI as he was
00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:12.780
writing. I mean, every time I think about technology
00:37:12.780 --> 00:37:18.099
in the classroom, I really get reminded of the
00:37:18.099 --> 00:37:21.440
vast disparity there is about technology being
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:24.039
used in different classrooms across the country,
00:37:24.579 --> 00:37:27.619
particularly within the secondary sector. By
00:37:27.619 --> 00:37:31.190
that I mean the technology that's used by students
00:37:31.190 --> 00:37:33.949
because of course within the state maintained
00:37:33.949 --> 00:37:37.750
sector students are lucky if they've got banks
00:37:37.750 --> 00:37:40.369
of laptops that can be used or a computer room
00:37:40.369 --> 00:37:42.909
yet if you go to some of the independent schools
00:37:42.909 --> 00:37:45.510
now they all have their own devices in class
00:37:45.510 --> 00:37:50.489
so the difference between the learning experience
00:37:50.489 --> 00:37:53.769
between two students in the same year group within
00:37:53.769 --> 00:37:57.730
the same county or the same city now is really
00:37:57.730 --> 00:38:01.280
big. I don't know enough about it as to how much
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:03.360
impact that has in the classroom. I've not done
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:05.559
any research about it, but it would be fascinating
00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:09.179
to find out the efficacy of those sitting with
00:38:09.179 --> 00:38:11.739
their personal laptops in class versus those
00:38:11.739 --> 00:38:13.440
that don't. I'm not going to comment on it because
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:15.820
I just don't know enough about it. So that's
00:38:15.820 --> 00:38:18.659
something that's caught my attention as a disparity
00:38:18.659 --> 00:38:22.380
at the moment of usage. And David, I think you're
00:38:22.380 --> 00:38:26.619
right. I guess for me, My immediate go -to is
00:38:26.619 --> 00:38:29.300
again for children with additional learning needs,
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:34.219
how much they have been opened up by having technology
00:38:34.219 --> 00:38:37.619
in the classroom. You know, you and I both taught
00:38:37.619 --> 00:38:40.219
English to children who were perhaps recently
00:38:40.219 --> 00:38:43.039
diagnosed with dyslexia and we've taught them
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:46.239
before they used a personal device when they
00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:49.699
were handwriting a story. versus what they're
00:38:49.699 --> 00:38:51.679
like when they've been given a computer and can
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:54.219
touch type and the difference in their output
00:38:54.219 --> 00:38:56.820
is phenomenal because of course they no longer
00:38:56.820 --> 00:38:59.980
have to use their short -term memory bandwidth
00:38:59.980 --> 00:39:03.300
on handwriting, they can give it all over to
00:39:03.300 --> 00:39:05.619
the content and that for me was the most joyful
00:39:05.619 --> 00:39:08.460
moment in teaching children with additional learning
00:39:08.460 --> 00:39:12.000
needs. So for me that one was a problem that
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:14.760
has been totally solved by the use of technology
00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:19.449
in a really positive story. So Again, I feel
00:39:19.449 --> 00:39:21.690
like it's so varied. You're right about research.
00:39:21.989 --> 00:39:23.789
Actually, a good old textbook, I think, could
00:39:23.789 --> 00:39:26.989
be way more powerful than Google. So I feel like
00:39:26.989 --> 00:39:29.469
for me, the technology aspect is really interesting.
00:39:29.889 --> 00:39:32.429
There are some serious positives with it. As
00:39:32.429 --> 00:39:34.550
I said, there are some serious disparities with
00:39:34.550 --> 00:39:36.670
it, and I'm sure that there will also be some
00:39:36.670 --> 00:39:39.489
serious negatives with it too. Yeah, I think
00:39:39.489 --> 00:39:40.889
that's the thing I found the most interesting
00:39:40.889 --> 00:39:43.429
about this last chapter. A lot of it... challenged
00:39:43.429 --> 00:39:46.789
me, I suppose, and raised new questions. I think
00:39:46.789 --> 00:39:49.250
one of the things that he touches on is the fact
00:39:49.250 --> 00:39:52.429
that we just don't know the impact yet. And so
00:39:52.429 --> 00:39:54.489
constantly revisiting, which is I think what
00:39:54.489 --> 00:39:57.530
you're talking about, and being willing to say
00:39:57.530 --> 00:39:59.510
we don't really know the impact this is going
00:39:59.510 --> 00:40:02.909
to have. So we have to see, but also be ready
00:40:02.909 --> 00:40:05.170
to constantly evaluate and see, for example,
00:40:05.190 --> 00:40:06.809
if we have children with additional learning
00:40:06.809 --> 00:40:08.530
needs, and we try something out and it works
00:40:08.530 --> 00:40:11.409
great, let's let's assess why it worked well
00:40:11.409 --> 00:40:13.909
and how might we apply that elsewhere. I think
00:40:13.909 --> 00:40:16.769
the thing that I'm still playing with is how
00:40:16.769 --> 00:40:19.230
we find that appropriate balance because like
00:40:19.230 --> 00:40:21.050
you talked about there's this growing digital
00:40:21.050 --> 00:40:25.670
divide and there's this requirement for society
00:40:25.670 --> 00:40:29.369
now to have technological skills, and how do
00:40:29.369 --> 00:40:32.230
we ensure that that's being provided to all of
00:40:32.230 --> 00:40:34.989
the children that are being taught, whilst also
00:40:34.989 --> 00:40:38.190
not taking away from what we're really talking
00:40:38.190 --> 00:40:40.789
about here, which is learning how to think well.
00:40:41.230 --> 00:40:43.829
And I think one of the things that he talks about,
00:40:43.829 --> 00:40:45.969
which I loved, I can't remember the exact quote,
00:40:46.030 --> 00:40:48.670
he says something about this idea that tech doesn't
00:40:48.670 --> 00:40:52.949
change how we think. And so ultimately, however,
00:40:53.130 --> 00:40:55.170
we're playing with bringing it into the classroom,
00:40:55.250 --> 00:40:59.449
whether to support children with needs or provide
00:40:59.449 --> 00:41:02.170
spaces for children to build this wealth of knowledge
00:41:02.170 --> 00:41:05.570
and facts, which we talked about earlier. Ultimately,
00:41:05.570 --> 00:41:09.269
we can't forget that. it is a tool to support
00:41:09.269 --> 00:41:12.250
thinking, it doesn't replace thinking. And so
00:41:12.250 --> 00:41:14.230
I feel like the main thing I'm walking away with
00:41:14.230 --> 00:41:16.510
is this big question of, okay, well, how do we
00:41:16.510 --> 00:41:18.949
do all of it then? How do we provide the education
00:41:18.949 --> 00:41:21.710
that children need with facts and developing
00:41:21.710 --> 00:41:23.969
their ability to think, but also the tech skills
00:41:23.969 --> 00:41:26.210
that they need for living in the 21st century?
00:41:26.989 --> 00:41:29.389
That's really interesting. The other thought
00:41:29.389 --> 00:41:31.989
I wanted to finish with before we kind of sign
00:41:31.989 --> 00:41:35.349
off is, David and I got very excited that there
00:41:35.349 --> 00:41:38.190
was another Daniel Willingham book. to read,
00:41:38.510 --> 00:41:41.210
which is called outsmart your brain, why learning
00:41:41.210 --> 00:41:44.110
is hard and how you can make it easy. I mean,
00:41:44.210 --> 00:41:46.230
again, it's another winning title that makes
00:41:46.230 --> 00:41:48.670
you want to go, oh, yes, read that, which is
00:41:48.670 --> 00:41:50.409
exactly what we did. We were like, kind of brilliant.
00:41:50.670 --> 00:41:53.369
Yes, let's get on with it. I have to confess,
00:41:53.409 --> 00:41:56.909
I didn't read the whole of it because we quite
00:41:56.909 --> 00:41:59.409
swiftly realized that it's predominantly aimed
00:41:59.409 --> 00:42:02.510
at talking to university students, I would say.
00:42:02.809 --> 00:42:07.460
It's actually aimed at them. and how they can
00:42:07.460 --> 00:42:11.039
be really good learners at university. That said...
00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:13.840
there was a lot in it that I think is really
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:17.199
applicable to pupils who are undertaking GCSEs
00:42:17.199 --> 00:42:20.639
and A levels and particularly the second half
00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:24.019
of the book and even more than that every chapter
00:42:24.019 --> 00:42:27.599
again had these what he called tips for instructors
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:30.019
which was again could be applicable to teachers
00:42:30.019 --> 00:42:33.199
and there were some really really great tips
00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:38.360
I mean I just also love Daniel's humor. One that
00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:41.039
really stood out for me was he has a whole chapter
00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:43.699
about creating the correct environment to learn
00:42:43.699 --> 00:42:47.860
and as you can imagine there is significant chat
00:42:47.860 --> 00:42:51.519
about distractions and obviously immediately
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:54.159
I was like my mobile phone and everything pinging
00:42:54.159 --> 00:42:58.400
off it and he discusses this. A brilliant idea
00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:01.039
that he gives that teachers could use in class
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:04.440
was this amazing little mini experiment and it's
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:08.849
all about how inefficient and ineffective multitasking
00:43:08.849 --> 00:43:11.170
is particularly with the use of distractions
00:43:11.170 --> 00:43:14.650
and he basically says right get your class you're
00:43:14.650 --> 00:43:17.110
going to show them two brief videos that relate
00:43:17.110 --> 00:43:19.050
to a topic that they're studying and that they
00:43:19.050 --> 00:43:21.150
should know about basically for each of these
00:43:21.150 --> 00:43:24.309
short videos write a few comprehension questions
00:43:24.309 --> 00:43:26.250
so that you can test their understanding when
00:43:26.250 --> 00:43:29.469
they've watched each one right show the first
00:43:29.469 --> 00:43:35.309
video total silence everyone takes the test During
00:43:35.309 --> 00:43:38.909
the second video, every now and again, as the
00:43:38.909 --> 00:43:41.309
students are watching the video, you are going
00:43:41.309 --> 00:43:44.670
to shout, ping, and then put a message up on
00:43:44.670 --> 00:43:47.929
the board that the students need to answer, which
00:43:47.929 --> 00:43:50.650
is basically simulating a WhatsApp or a text
00:43:50.650 --> 00:43:52.909
message or something. And the student should
00:43:52.909 --> 00:43:55.030
read that message, and then they should just
00:43:55.030 --> 00:43:56.630
note down a quick response of what they would
00:43:56.630 --> 00:43:58.920
say if... that had been on their phone. What
00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:01.199
you want to be doing is you want to base two
00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:03.980
of your comprehension questions around the time
00:44:03.980 --> 00:44:06.860
on the video where you shouted ping and got them
00:44:06.860 --> 00:44:08.960
to interact with your text message. And then
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:11.679
you want to have two of your questions when they
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:14.900
were just kind of totally focused. And then you
00:44:14.900 --> 00:44:18.059
want to look at the results. And hopefully, he
00:44:18.059 --> 00:44:20.840
says, because students never listen to advice
00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:23.340
unless you actually show them how things could
00:44:23.340 --> 00:44:25.579
possibly make a big difference to them, they
00:44:25.579 --> 00:44:28.940
will then see the distraction and multitasking
00:44:28.940 --> 00:44:30.940
will mean that they did not answer those questions
00:44:30.940 --> 00:44:34.599
correctly and he just gives such hilarious examples
00:44:34.599 --> 00:44:36.500
of the fact that more often than not you could
00:44:36.500 --> 00:44:39.500
chat on and study skills to pupils about the
00:44:39.500 --> 00:44:41.719
fact that they should be in the learning environment
00:44:41.719 --> 00:44:44.139
not have distractions it's really important it'll
00:44:44.139 --> 00:44:46.300
make us better learners and they'll go yeah yeah
00:44:46.300 --> 00:44:48.960
yeah whatevs and they'll listen and he gives
00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:52.929
this brilliant example So I thought that book
00:44:52.929 --> 00:44:55.889
would be brilliant for teachers of GCSE and A
00:44:55.889 --> 00:44:58.550
-level classes because it does have tips that
00:44:58.550 --> 00:45:01.210
are totally suitable for secondary school, and
00:45:01.210 --> 00:45:04.710
some of them are hilarious and fun and I think
00:45:04.710 --> 00:45:07.269
would engage the students. So I thought it looked
00:45:07.269 --> 00:45:09.530
like a good book. As I say, I skim read it, but
00:45:09.530 --> 00:45:11.550
I think there were some really great tips if
00:45:11.550 --> 00:45:13.630
you decide you really want to go down the Daniel
00:45:13.630 --> 00:45:16.250
William journey. Yeah, and I think there was
00:45:16.250 --> 00:45:19.050
crossover between this book and because I read
00:45:19.050 --> 00:45:23.159
a bit of it as well. and the 2021 Why Don't Students
00:45:23.159 --> 00:45:25.719
Like School, because there's definitely stuff
00:45:25.719 --> 00:45:29.340
about multitasking in there. There was stuff
00:45:29.340 --> 00:45:32.820
about kind of how we can effectively trick ourselves
00:45:32.820 --> 00:45:35.559
into listening and learning better by the way
00:45:35.559 --> 00:45:38.119
in which we approach lessons, I guess. In this
00:45:38.119 --> 00:45:41.179
case, he's sort of talking about lectures. Because
00:45:41.179 --> 00:45:43.039
we are coming to the end, I just want to finish
00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:45.039
with a couple of things that we talked about
00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:46.380
challenge, and I want to finish with a couple
00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:48.739
of things that I'm going to take forward. Um,
00:45:48.980 --> 00:45:52.099
so one of them, which I really liked was the
00:45:52.099 --> 00:45:54.579
idea of, um, organizing a lesson plan, like a
00:45:54.579 --> 00:45:58.179
story. He was saying that it's a good way to
00:45:58.179 --> 00:46:00.679
enable students to comprehend and remember. And
00:46:00.679 --> 00:46:03.119
I think what I have been doing is like a light
00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:05.039
version of that, which is dropping an anecdote
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:08.260
in to try and link up to something that I'm teaching.
00:46:08.579 --> 00:46:11.059
What I haven't done, which I'd like to do is
00:46:11.059 --> 00:46:14.369
to, yeah. think about a lesson plan like a story,
00:46:14.530 --> 00:46:17.329
I think that could be also really fun as a challenge
00:46:17.329 --> 00:46:19.809
for me as a teacher. So that's that's number
00:46:19.809 --> 00:46:22.630
one. And then the other one was really practical
00:46:22.630 --> 00:46:24.389
advice. And I think as well as links to what
00:46:24.389 --> 00:46:26.989
you were saying as well about how we can, you
00:46:26.989 --> 00:46:29.329
know, how students themselves can hack their
00:46:29.329 --> 00:46:32.670
brains. He said, so suggested setting interim
00:46:32.670 --> 00:46:34.969
goals, give a fixed time every day, you're going
00:46:34.969 --> 00:46:38.130
to do your homework, maybe read a weekly news
00:46:38.130 --> 00:46:40.800
magazine. stream one science documentary per
00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:42.519
week. This is going back to what you were saying
00:46:42.519 --> 00:46:44.599
about developing general knowledge. How do we
00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:46.659
do that? Well, students can be encouraged to
00:46:46.659 --> 00:46:49.320
aim for growth mindset and set these little goals,
00:46:49.500 --> 00:46:52.420
have a strategy, set themselves ways in which
00:46:52.420 --> 00:46:54.780
they're going to find out about the world. And
00:46:54.780 --> 00:46:56.340
because we know children are curious, because
00:46:56.340 --> 00:46:57.940
we know our brains are curious, this will set
00:46:57.940 --> 00:47:01.000
them off on further paths of thinking and discovery.
00:47:01.119 --> 00:47:03.380
If I listened to or watched a science documentary
00:47:03.380 --> 00:47:07.000
per week, my goodness, that would probably have
00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:09.260
me spiralling in multiple directions of interest,
00:47:09.380 --> 00:47:11.719
even though I don't teach science. So I can see
00:47:11.719 --> 00:47:13.820
how these two things, the story lesson planning
00:47:13.820 --> 00:47:16.780
for me as a teacher and getting children to set
00:47:16.780 --> 00:47:19.159
their own goals and take ownership of their learning
00:47:19.159 --> 00:47:21.480
in that way. I think those are two big takeaways
00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:24.599
for me. Anything final from you, Steph, before
00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:28.159
we sign off? I feel like if I had to summarise
00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:31.099
the overall take away from this book, it would
00:47:31.099 --> 00:47:33.599
be that children learn what they think about.
00:47:33.860 --> 00:47:37.840
And so what I am taking away from my own practice
00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:41.199
is just being more reflective in the lessons
00:47:41.199 --> 00:47:44.920
that I plan about looking at and critically evaluating
00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:47.860
what are they actually thinking about here? And
00:47:47.860 --> 00:47:51.389
is that helping? them answer this big inquiry
00:47:51.389 --> 00:47:53.349
question that we might be looking at perhaps
00:47:53.349 --> 00:47:55.150
just in this lesson or that we're looking at
00:47:55.150 --> 00:47:58.469
over a myriad of weeks? And am I creating and
00:47:58.469 --> 00:48:00.769
facilitating a space where not only are they
00:48:00.769 --> 00:48:03.050
learning what they're thinking about, but are
00:48:03.050 --> 00:48:05.710
they also thinking in the way that I hope they're
00:48:05.710 --> 00:48:08.070
thinking? If I want them to make connections,
00:48:08.489 --> 00:48:11.389
am I facilitating them making connections by
00:48:11.389 --> 00:48:13.570
what I've put in front of them to engage with
00:48:13.570 --> 00:48:16.070
or how they're going to engage with it? And one
00:48:16.070 --> 00:48:18.610
of the anecdotes that he mentions that I really
00:48:18.610 --> 00:48:20.179
love that I'll finish on because I feel like
00:48:20.179 --> 00:48:22.960
it really helps illustrate it was he talks about
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:24.840
this lesson that a teacher did about the Underground
00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:27.880
Railroad. And the teacher was trying to think
00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:29.440
about how to engage the students and get them
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:31.699
to really understand what it felt like to be
00:48:31.699 --> 00:48:34.860
in the Underground Railroad and also to understand
00:48:34.860 --> 00:48:37.860
the diet and the food and the nutrition and that
00:48:37.860 --> 00:48:41.519
aspect. And so they baked cookies. And looking
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:43.780
back at the lesson, what the kids were thinking
00:48:43.780 --> 00:48:46.610
about For the first five minutes was the connection
00:48:46.610 --> 00:48:48.190
to the Underground Railroad and understanding
00:48:48.190 --> 00:48:50.530
that experience. And the other 40 minutes was
00:48:50.530 --> 00:48:53.570
how fun baking cookies is. And so I think one
00:48:53.570 --> 00:48:55.570
of the things I'm trying to make sure I reflect
00:48:55.570 --> 00:48:58.309
on is how do I ensure, of course, that learning
00:48:58.309 --> 00:49:02.170
is fun and engaging and exciting, and that we're
00:49:02.170 --> 00:49:05.889
really sparking their curiosity, but also that
00:49:05.889 --> 00:49:08.130
I'm ensuring that they're thinking about what
00:49:08.130 --> 00:49:10.010
I hope they're thinking about, what I want them
00:49:10.010 --> 00:49:14.159
to learn. Oh, Steph, you have summarised that
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:16.980
so eloquently. Thank you. I think that's the
00:49:16.980 --> 00:49:20.880
most perfect moment to say goodbye from Education
00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:24.219
Sense. We've really enjoyed speaking to you today
00:49:24.219 --> 00:49:26.880
about Daniel Willingham's book. So it just leaves
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:30.039
me with saying goodbye from David. Goodbye from
00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:32.519
me. And goodbye from Steph. And thank you, Steph.
00:49:32.780 --> 00:49:35.300
Thank you so much for having me. And goodbye
00:49:35.300 --> 00:49:37.079
from me. We'll see you again soon.