The County Connection | Powering the Northwest: Hydropower, Salmon, and Washington’s Energy Future

WEBVTT
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I was really hoping to catch you in a misspelling
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there. I was worried about it. I was really worried
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about it. Welcome to County Connection, the official
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podcast of the Washington State Association of
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Counties, where we dive into the legislative
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issues shaping the future of our communities.
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From budgets to public safety, infrastructure
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to elections, we'll break down what's happening
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in Olympia and how it impacts counties from across
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the Evergreen State. Stay informed, stay engaged,
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and join us as we amplify the voice of Washington's
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39 counties. Welcome to the County Connections
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podcast. I'm Derek Young, Executive Director
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for the Washington State Association of Counties.
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Joining me today is Clark Mather of Northwest
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River Partners. Welcome, Clark. Thanks for joining
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us. Derek, it's great to be with you today. Appreciate
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the chance to be here. I appreciate you coming.
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And I don't know if you know this, but welcome
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to the number one county podcast in Washington.
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At least that's what... Denny Heck said in the
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last episode. So I'm just I'm running with it.
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I assume we're the only county podcast, but,
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you know, that's what we have. If you have some
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competition, that would that would actually be
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more interesting. But it's a great podcast. I
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was noticing that you had your last three guests
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have been Denny Heck, the lieutenant governor,
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the secretary of state and the very brilliant
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Melanie Harding, my former colleague with the
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city of Tacoma. So. I was thinking of the Barack
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Obama line where he said, either you set a very
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high bar or this is the beginning of a very funny
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joke. I can't tell yet. Yeah, you know, we try
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to take all comers. You took me, so I appreciate
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that. Thank you. Well, and I should say, full
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disclosure for the listeners, Clark and I have
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known each other for many years. So, Clark, for
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those that don't know you, why don't you start
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with something I actually don't know is where
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you grew up. Yeah. So I grew up in Spokane County,
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Washington, in the city of Spokane and grew up
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there. My parents had moved there from Montana
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and Oregon in the 50s. And that's where I spent
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my time. And I really didn't know much about
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the work that I'm. doing today, advocating for
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the hydropower system at the time, despite the
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fact that when we were Washington water power
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customers, that's now a Vista, they have hydropower
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facilities right there on the Spokane river.
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Yeah. And so I'm very proud of my Eastern Washington
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roots. I still consider myself a five Oh niner
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at heart. I went to Washington state university
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and, um, but I'm also proud of the time I spent
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in Tacoma. I was there when you and I got to
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know each other. I lived there for 17 years.
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Now I live in Vancouver and basically drive around
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the Northwest most days. Yeah, you must put on
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a lot of miles. I'll get to that here in a second.
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And so I did have to ask because I did know that
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you were a Coug and from the east side and you
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went to work for Norm Dix, which I believe is
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where we first met. Yeah. And there may be a
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handful of people that are listening that don't
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know that Norm is a former Husky linebacker.
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And so I'm curious, how long did it take him
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to bring that up? Maybe I haven't told you this
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story. So I go over to interview with Norm. This
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is 2007 back in Washington, D .C. And, you know,
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you go to an interview and you're trying to figure
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out how to connect with the person and talk about
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your credentials. And so you do all the homework.
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So about three or four minutes into the interview,
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Norm takes me over to a picture. In his office.
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And it was a picture that Lane Rollins had given
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him of the 1962 Apple Cup played at Joe Albee
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Stadium where my high school football games are
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played. I was in the marching band. I marched
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all over Joe Albee Stadium. And it was a picture
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of Norm intercepting the pass that sealed the
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win for the Huskies in the 1962 Apple Cup. And
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when I didn't run out of the room or didn't argue
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with him. At the time, I'm sure that helped steal
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the job for me. But President Rollins also gave
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Norm, which I thought was brilliant. He gave
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him the video of that game and took out all the
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Cougar touchdowns. And Norm loved to tell that
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story. So the rumor was, I don't know if it's
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true that I was the only Cougar to ever work
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for Norm. I can't believe that's the case. But
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we had lots of good banter and still do about.
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cougars and huskies although the huskies have
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gotten the better of my coods more often than
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not yeah rethink history aside i you know when
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you and i were younger it was it was a lot more
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even uh yeah yeah well i i had to bring it up
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because uh yeah i i don't know if you're the
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only one but uh i can definitely say the bulk
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of his um staff over the years have definitely
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been uh huskies so that's pretty sure And so
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you not only worked for Norm, but also Senator
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Cantwell. And more recently, before you joined
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the Northwest River Partners, you were at TPU.
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So you are, you know, local government, at least
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local government power, I should say. Yeah. Well,
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you know, and that job with Senator Cantwell
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I got in 2001 was really kind of lit the fire
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for me on hydropower. Way back in the day. No
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kidding. Way, way back in the day, 25 years ago,
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oddly enough, I was Senator Cantwell's first
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central Washington director and opened up her
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office in Richland, Washington, and was responsible
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for nine or 10 counties in basically the fourth
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congressional district. Yeah. And I didn't know
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anything about the hydropower system. I didn't
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know the huge impact it had. But the fourth in
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central Washington is the heartbeat. of not only
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hydropower, but the system. And I had not, as
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I was mentioning earlier, when I grew up in Spokane,
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I didn't understand how important hydropower
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was, never went to Grand Coulee Dam. But when
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you're that person for Senator Cantwell, and
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she was on the Energy Committee, we were right
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in the middle of the West Coast energy crisis.
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She was a huge expert in the United States Senate
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on not only energy policy in Washington, but
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west wide, because of what was happening on the
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grid. We had to get smart on that. And so I got
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a chance to visit some of the federal and non
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-federal dams in that part of the world. I got
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to go visit the Columbia Basin Project that irrigates
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700 ,000 acres of agriculture behind because
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of the pumping that happens behind Grand Coulee
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Dam. And so it was the first time that I got
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connected with not only the infrastructure, but
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the people that were connected to it. The reason
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we have all this stuff. I was just sharing with
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a group yesterday, President Roosevelt, Congress,
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governors deserve a ton of credit for it. But
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it's the people in that part of the world and
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around the Northwest that decided that they wanted
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to do something different, that they wanted to
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have consumer -owned utilities, our first initiative
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in Washington formed public utility districts,
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that they wanted to have irrigated agriculture
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in that part of the world, that part of the world
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that was desert and now is lit up with billions
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of dollars of agriculture because of... the Columbia
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Basin Project. They wanted to have electricity
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that was affordable, but also got to the rural
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parts, the more rural parts of Washington. And
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of course, now the hydropower system serves cities,
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suburbs, and all parts of Washington, most parts
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of Washington State, and really most parts of
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the Northwest. So it was really where I fell
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in love with that story, not only of the infrastructure
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itself, but the people, thousands of people along
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the way that made it happen. And I really, that
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part of that. The part of the work that we do
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to tell that story, not only bringing that history,
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but also bringing it forward to today is something
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I'm super passionate about. Yeah, that's great.
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I will say that, you know, when I was a kid,
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we were from Indiana. And so when we were flying
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out here, I was eight. And, you know, like any
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kid, you're looking out the window the whole
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time. It was the first time I'd ever flown an
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airplane. And I remember it was mostly cloudy
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until we got to, you know, basically the Rockies.
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And then you could look down and I saw the, you
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know, circular irrigation for the first time.
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And it was, you know, it's so like foreign for
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somebody from Indiana. Like that's not the farm
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there. But it's also not necessary. But what
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was really interesting to me was that like in
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my in my head, I could not conceive of. you know,
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what it was or how any of it worked. And my mom
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was trying to explain because she knew a little
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bit about Hanford. And so she knew a little bit
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how, you know, all that was done. But but even
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my parents were just kind of like amazed by what,
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you know, Eastern Washington looked like as a
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result of, you know, these big public works projects.
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Yeah, it's it's really incredible. Maybe some
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of your listeners have read The Boys in the Boat
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and The Boys in the Boat, you know, obviously
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lionizes the. Husky rowing team that won a gold
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medal of the Berlin Olympics. But part of that
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story that also resonates with me is the fact
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that several of those members of the UW crew
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team went over and worked on Grand Coulee Dam
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as it was being built. And, you know, did tremendously
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dangerous work building that facility in the
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late 1930s and early 1940s. And we have them
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to thank and the thousands of other people. that
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made that happen and all of the canals and laterals
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to build the columbia basin project which we're
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now still trying to expand thanks to my partners
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at the columbia basin development league it's
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just an incredible thing and you know it's an
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honor honestly to represent our members and to
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work with people like you and others to keep
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that system going because it's it's so important
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to washington not only for power but for irrigation
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recreation all the things that make our state
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so great it's It's interesting that, you know,
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when you fly over it in a plane and you see that
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and you see all of those center pivot irrigation
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facilities and others, it really does impact
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you about how much of an impact that system has
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had on Washington State and the Northwest. Absolutely.
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And since you mentioned your members, so for
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our listeners who've never heard of Northwest
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River Partners or just don't know about it, maybe
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they've seen the ads like I have, you know, the
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guy standing in the river. I'm glad you've seen
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them. Who are your members? Who pays the bills?
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And what do they want from you? What is it that
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you all do? Yeah, so we have 100 members across
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Washington state and seven other states in the
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Northwest. Most of our members are the consumer
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-owned public utilities in Washington and in
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those states that take the electricity that is
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generated by the dams on the Columbia and Snake
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Rivers. There's 31 dams in all. That power is
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generated by the Corps of Engineers, the Bureau
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of Reclamation, and marketed at cost by the Bonneville
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Power Administration. And that's one of the huge
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legacies of the Northwest is that for most customers
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in Washington State, well, but maybe half or
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so, they are served by a consumer -owned utility
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that gets access to that power at cost from those
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facilities in the Columbia Generating Station
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in Hanford from Bonneville. But we also have
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a more diverse membership. We have... Agricultural
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groups, I was just chatting today with Michelle
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Hennings from the Washington Association of Wheat
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Growers, the Washington Grain Commission led
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by Casey Chemrow, the Washington Potato Commission,
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and others are our members. We have a data center
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member, SABIE Data Centers, that has data center
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presence not only in Washington State but throughout
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the Northwest. Several ports, our friend and
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colleague Adam Lincoln at the Port of Pasco and
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other ports. are around the Northwest that are
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integrally tied to the hydropower system and
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the ports and navigation system that that system
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supports, business, labor. It's a very diverse
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membership. And what we see in our public opinion
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polling is that the vast majority of people in
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Washington support hydropower as an electric
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generating resource. I think in our most recent
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survey, from October 2025, says that something
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like 78 % of people in Washington support hydropower.
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And on a partisan basis, it's equal roughly across
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the Northwest. It's about 80 % self -identified
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Democrats, 80 % self -identified Republicans.
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And so we think that with our coalition, that
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diverse coalition of ag and ports and business
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and the consumer -owned utilities, That we really
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represent that majority, the strong majority
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of people that supports hydropower as an electric
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generating resource, but supports all of the
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benefits that come from the system. That's great
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to know. So it's not just there, you know, for
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those that are lucky enough like myself to belong
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to a member owned utility or, you know, PUD or
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whatever. It's all the other interests that benefit
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from that river infrastructure. agriculture,
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the ports, so on and so forth. That's right.
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The great part of this conversation is that it's
00:14:02.620 --> 00:14:05.080
all different types of utilities. We proudly
00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:07.960
represent our colleagues, my former colleagues
00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:11.519
at Tacoma Power, but we also represent Big Bend
00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:14.100
Electric Cooperative. We represent the Port of
00:14:14.100 --> 00:14:17.080
Garfield County. We represent, as I mentioned
00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:20.240
earlier, those agricultural organizations. So
00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:24.009
it's hydropower. doesn't necessarily our members
00:14:24.009 --> 00:14:25.870
don't serve every county in the state they serve
00:14:25.870 --> 00:14:28.710
most of them but the interest in terms of river
00:14:28.710 --> 00:14:32.750
transportation and that 465 mile river transportation
00:14:32.750 --> 00:14:35.470
system that's enabled by the navigation locks
00:14:35.470 --> 00:14:38.230
the barging that goes up and down the river you
00:14:38.230 --> 00:14:41.629
know whitman county the wheat the eastern washington
00:14:41.629 --> 00:14:44.490
wheat growers really depend on that for example
00:14:45.230 --> 00:14:47.070
Again, you're talking about the irrigated ag
00:14:47.070 --> 00:14:49.190
that has huge impacts in Grant, Adams County,
00:14:49.330 --> 00:14:51.070
and some of the counties, Douglas and Schwann
00:14:51.070 --> 00:14:54.330
County, big, big part of that. But that electricity
00:14:54.330 --> 00:14:56.389
that we have in the region really does affect
00:14:56.389 --> 00:14:59.250
everybody. And so that diversity is really important
00:14:59.250 --> 00:15:03.409
for this conversation. So let's maybe get into
00:15:03.409 --> 00:15:06.730
the mechanics of how that works. I think most
00:15:06.730 --> 00:15:11.269
people kind of get the gist. You know, Dan, water
00:15:11.269 --> 00:15:14.480
turns the turbine, electricity happens. You can
00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:16.899
turn on your internet, so on and so forth. But
00:15:16.899 --> 00:15:19.879
give me the 90 -second version. You're talking
00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:23.279
to a commissioner from somewhere in West Sound,
00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:28.669
where maybe it's not as top of mind. How does
00:15:28.669 --> 00:15:30.950
it work? Where does Washington's electricity
00:15:30.950 --> 00:15:33.710
literally come from? And what does the federal
00:15:33.710 --> 00:15:37.710
system do besides make the power? Yeah. So the
00:15:37.710 --> 00:15:43.830
fact that we have reliable electricity the way
00:15:43.830 --> 00:15:47.110
we do is a miracle. And every utility in Washington
00:15:47.110 --> 00:15:48.649
state and the Bonneville Power Administration
00:15:48.649 --> 00:15:52.450
does something miraculous every few seconds.
00:15:52.669 --> 00:15:54.769
So electricity travels at the speed of light.
00:15:54.990 --> 00:15:58.230
And the system has to be in near perfect balance
00:15:58.230 --> 00:16:01.210
every three or four seconds to basically have
00:16:01.210 --> 00:16:03.350
reliable service, whether you're at your home
00:16:03.350 --> 00:16:06.669
or you're at Boeing. That voltage, all of the
00:16:06.669 --> 00:16:09.820
things has to be right there when you need it,
00:16:09.860 --> 00:16:11.539
when you turn your light on, when you turn your
00:16:11.539 --> 00:16:15.639
machine on, whatever that is. And so those dams,
00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:19.120
those 31 dams, again, the big ones on the Columbia
00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:21.970
and Snake River in particular, are generating
00:16:21.970 --> 00:16:24.909
the power based on the needs that Bonneville's
00:16:24.909 --> 00:16:28.289
defined or your local utilities define and has
00:16:28.289 --> 00:16:31.070
the ability to ramp up the generation from those
00:16:31.070 --> 00:16:33.450
turbines or what they call spinning reserves
00:16:33.450 --> 00:16:37.379
to help fill the gaps as... load or electric
00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:41.059
usage is going up and down in the northwest and
00:16:41.059 --> 00:16:44.080
those that electron those electrons travel the
00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:46.580
speed of light across those big transmission
00:16:46.580 --> 00:16:48.960
lines that you see dotting the landscape around
00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:51.419
the region and then they come down to a local
00:16:51.419 --> 00:16:54.519
distribution utility along your you know your
00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:57.480
um your power poles that you see in your community
00:16:57.480 --> 00:16:59.559
and they come down and they're ramped down in
00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:01.679
terms of voltage they come into your home or
00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:06.240
business and we all just expect to have the lights
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.299
to turn on in the morning or to run our washer
00:17:08.299 --> 00:17:11.079
and dryer, or when you go into work at your job,
00:17:11.099 --> 00:17:12.740
that you have the power you need to do that.
00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:16.420
And that system, the hydropower system, providing
00:17:16.420 --> 00:17:19.759
that on -demand energy when we need it, is really
00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:22.160
the foundation of the electric resource in Washington.
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:25.480
Again, about 60 % of the electricity that comes
00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:27.599
into Washington's homes and businesses is from
00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:31.480
hydropower, and it's about 50 % overall in the
00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:35.700
Northwest. Thanks. I appreciate you kind of walking
00:17:35.700 --> 00:17:37.579
through that because the mechanics of it can
00:17:37.579 --> 00:17:39.720
be a little confusing, especially with this,
00:17:40.539 --> 00:17:43.220
you know, the Bonneville Power Administration
00:17:43.220 --> 00:17:46.599
and, you know, the interaction with their public
00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:50.720
utilities and how all that works. And speaking
00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:55.720
of which, so you flagged for me a court ruling
00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:59.700
from, I think it's a year ago, from Judge Simon
00:17:59.700 --> 00:18:04.230
that impacts some of our power. I did happen
00:18:04.230 --> 00:18:07.589
to notice that two weeks ago, BPA opened a case
00:18:07.589 --> 00:18:13.490
for a 6 .3 % increase and pretty directly blamed
00:18:13.490 --> 00:18:17.930
that on that order. Could you describe what exactly
00:18:17.930 --> 00:18:21.089
that case is about and how that's leading to
00:18:21.089 --> 00:18:26.890
an increase in power costs? Yeah. So the litigation
00:18:26.890 --> 00:18:30.529
itself is 25 years old. It's actually longer
00:18:30.529 --> 00:18:33.019
than I've been. working on these issues really
00:18:33.019 --> 00:18:37.200
or almost the same age and it has to do whether
00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:40.559
we're doing enough to protect endangered species
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:44.980
act esa listed fish species in the colombian
00:18:44.980 --> 00:18:47.980
snake rivers and just to be totally clear and
00:18:47.980 --> 00:18:50.380
i share this here and we share it on podcasts
00:18:50.380 --> 00:18:53.180
around or in our conversations around the northwest
00:18:53.180 --> 00:18:56.019
we're on podcasts is the dams do have an impact
00:18:56.019 --> 00:18:58.160
like any other energy source they have an impact
00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:01.319
on the landscape they've had an impact on salmon
00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.059
and steelhead. But we think that we're making
00:19:04.059 --> 00:19:08.059
progress in that work. So hundreds of millions
00:19:08.059 --> 00:19:10.500
of dollars are spent by utility customers around
00:19:10.500 --> 00:19:13.240
the Northwest to mitigate the impacts of the
00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:15.500
hydropower system. And if you look at data from
00:19:15.500 --> 00:19:18.019
the University of Washington, fish returns have
00:19:18.019 --> 00:19:21.000
nearly tripled on average into the federal system
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.339
since the first federal dam, Bonneville Dam,
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:29.099
went into service in 1938. This case... has basically
00:19:29.099 --> 00:19:32.859
called into question federal plans and whether
00:19:32.859 --> 00:19:36.180
they're adequate for certain species of salmon,
00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:39.240
certain species and certain geographies of salmon
00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:43.200
throughout the system. Our advocacy has been,
00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:46.119
and we've been frankly asking Governor Ferguson
00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:49.200
and Governor Kotek, so Governor Ferguson, of
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:51.220
course, of Washington, Governor Kotek of Oregon,
00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:55.509
and others, to convene a conversation about how
00:19:55.509 --> 00:19:58.390
we can get out of the courtroom. and deal with
00:19:58.390 --> 00:20:00.750
those areas where we have not made the progress
00:20:00.750 --> 00:20:04.750
that we need to recover salmon and other fish
00:20:04.750 --> 00:20:08.450
species. And as appropriate, have conversations
00:20:08.450 --> 00:20:12.250
with the several sovereign tribes that have treaties
00:20:12.250 --> 00:20:15.750
or executive order rights with the United States,
00:20:15.849 --> 00:20:19.730
where they feel like that those rights and those
00:20:19.730 --> 00:20:21.950
commitments by the U .S. have not been met. We
00:20:21.950 --> 00:20:24.170
think that there are plenty of opportunities
00:20:24.170 --> 00:20:27.380
to have those conversations. And candidly, We've
00:20:27.380 --> 00:20:30.359
been frustrated because Washington, just in the
00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:34.440
last year or so, has decided to support the folks
00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:37.970
that are suing the federal system. So on the
00:20:37.970 --> 00:20:41.690
court ruling. So this last March, Judge Simon,
00:20:41.789 --> 00:20:44.630
as you rightly point out, Derek, made a court
00:20:44.630 --> 00:20:47.930
ruling that essentially requires more water to
00:20:47.930 --> 00:20:50.809
be spilled over the dams instead of generating
00:20:50.809 --> 00:20:54.069
power through the turbines at those dams. It's
00:20:54.069 --> 00:20:56.849
costing us hundreds of megawatts of energy on
00:20:56.849 --> 00:20:58.250
average throughout the years. And at certain
00:20:58.250 --> 00:21:01.450
times, it's costing us a lot more than that,
00:21:01.490 --> 00:21:03.869
particularly in the August months in terms of
00:21:03.869 --> 00:21:06.589
capacity on the system, where there are very
00:21:06.589 --> 00:21:09.829
few fish, very few young fish that are going
00:21:09.829 --> 00:21:11.670
through the system on their way out to the ocean
00:21:11.670 --> 00:21:15.769
as part of their life cycle. Our argument has
00:21:15.769 --> 00:21:19.309
been that the additional spill, particularly
00:21:19.309 --> 00:21:21.289
at the levels that we've seen over the last few
00:21:21.289 --> 00:21:22.990
years, we're not sure that it's helping fish.
00:21:23.450 --> 00:21:25.549
There's some evidence that's actually harming
00:21:25.549 --> 00:21:28.329
the adult fish as they return upriver, just due
00:21:28.329 --> 00:21:32.369
to the massive amount of flow. And we know that
00:21:32.369 --> 00:21:35.410
it's costing customers on their electric bills.
00:21:35.490 --> 00:21:37.750
Bonneville, as you point out, has put forward
00:21:37.750 --> 00:21:39.890
a rate case to increase wholesale power costs
00:21:39.890 --> 00:21:45.180
by 6 .3%. That's on top of, basically, for a
00:21:45.180 --> 00:21:49.839
Bonneville customer, about 25 % of Tacoma Power's
00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:52.299
cost to Bonneville and the other utilities' cost
00:21:52.299 --> 00:21:54.720
to Bonneville. go into one of the largest fish
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:57.220
and wildlife mitigation programs on the planet
00:21:57.220 --> 00:22:01.650
and we think particularly as washington has lost
00:22:01.650 --> 00:22:04.190
its affordability advantage we've gone from number
00:22:04.190 --> 00:22:06.789
one in the country on electric price affordability
00:22:06.789 --> 00:22:09.609
among the 50 states in the district of columbia
00:22:09.609 --> 00:22:15.829
in 2015 to now 13th in 2024 we know that people
00:22:15.829 --> 00:22:18.710
are struggling with all sorts of costs the cost
00:22:18.710 --> 00:22:22.009
of gas is four five six dollars a gallon diesel
00:22:22.009 --> 00:22:25.220
who which Everyday people, farmers rely on is
00:22:25.220 --> 00:22:28.000
five, six, seven dollars a gallon in some places
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:31.099
in the northwest. So can we have a conversation
00:22:31.099 --> 00:22:34.480
where we find solutions that help continue our
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:37.700
progress on salmon recovery, but also protect
00:22:37.700 --> 00:22:40.319
the hydropower system, the river transportation
00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:43.779
system that's become less safe in this order
00:22:43.779 --> 00:22:46.940
and help keep everyone going ahead together?
00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:49.140
We hope we can find some balanced solutions there.
00:22:49.819 --> 00:22:53.519
Yeah, I know. For our members, one of the biggest
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:56.299
concerns that you'll hear from, you know, particularly
00:22:56.299 --> 00:22:58.420
in eastern Washington, but, you know, elsewhere
00:22:58.420 --> 00:23:02.940
around the system is that that navigation aspect.
00:23:03.140 --> 00:23:05.380
You know, it's not just the cost of power increase.
00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:07.759
It's, you know, how are they going to get their
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:10.920
products to market? There's not currently rail
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:12.960
infrastructure that can make it work. You can't
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:17.759
truck that much. So it's really it hits to their
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:21.349
economic. you know lifeline and that was something
00:23:21.349 --> 00:23:23.569
when i back when i was a member that was always
00:23:23.569 --> 00:23:26.390
like the best argument to me was you know it
00:23:26.390 --> 00:23:28.910
was less about the power power has become a different
00:23:28.910 --> 00:23:32.849
animal since in that short period of time but
00:23:32.849 --> 00:23:36.190
um but you know the transportation issue just
00:23:36.190 --> 00:23:40.089
seemed like so difficult to solve without a huge
00:23:40.089 --> 00:23:44.779
amount of investment it really is and if for
00:23:44.779 --> 00:23:47.940
your listeners i'm i'm sure that Where you have
00:23:47.940 --> 00:23:51.160
farmers in the counties that you serve, they're
00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:53.440
very acutely aware of the challenges that farmers
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:57.430
are facing. Farmers are struggling to hang on
00:23:57.430 --> 00:23:59.970
right now. Michelle Hennings, again, my colleague
00:23:59.970 --> 00:24:01.349
with the wheat growers, shared that something
00:24:01.349 --> 00:24:04.470
like two farms a week are going out of business
00:24:04.470 --> 00:24:07.609
in Washington. Wow. And according to the U .S.
00:24:07.609 --> 00:24:09.809
Department of Agriculture, Washington state is
00:24:09.809 --> 00:24:14.470
50th out of 50 states on farm profitability.
00:24:15.130 --> 00:24:17.710
farmers lost something like 400 million dollars
00:24:17.710 --> 00:24:22.390
according to recent data from usda the river
00:24:22.390 --> 00:24:25.029
transportation system again enabled by the four
00:24:25.029 --> 00:24:28.190
dams with navigation locks on the lower columbia
00:24:28.190 --> 00:24:30.670
river and the four dams on the sinker but that
00:24:30.670 --> 00:24:34.150
also have navigation locks are hugely essential
00:24:34.150 --> 00:24:37.650
it's a very efficient way from an economic perspective
00:24:37.650 --> 00:24:41.329
to move goods each one of those barges that you
00:24:41.329 --> 00:24:44.529
see going up the columbia or snake river is displacing,
00:24:44.529 --> 00:24:49.049
is keeping about 130 semi trucks off the road.
00:24:49.230 --> 00:24:51.430
And if you see one of those four barge tows,
00:24:51.430 --> 00:24:54.390
that's over 500 semi trucks that are on Highway
00:24:54.390 --> 00:24:57.190
14 on the Washington side of the border, not
00:24:57.190 --> 00:25:00.089
on Highway 12. They're not on Interstate 84.
00:25:00.789 --> 00:25:03.630
And it's helping remove hundreds of thousands
00:25:03.630 --> 00:25:07.250
of tons of emissions. And it's not only important
00:25:07.250 --> 00:25:09.930
for Washington farmers, but it's important for
00:25:09.930 --> 00:25:11.730
the region. It's important for the country. It's
00:25:11.730 --> 00:25:14.579
the number one. We'd export gateway in the US,
00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:17.819
number two for soy and corn. We transport wind
00:25:17.819 --> 00:25:20.440
turbines using the river system. We transport
00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:24.710
fuel. So it is a, to your point, you're right
00:25:24.710 --> 00:25:27.029
on about this. People don't think about that
00:25:27.029 --> 00:25:30.150
part, the river transportation part of the system.
00:25:30.349 --> 00:25:34.430
And it is a huge part of our success in the Northwest.
00:25:34.750 --> 00:25:38.369
And if transportation costs become less certain.
00:25:38.910 --> 00:25:41.250
If schedules can't be met for wheat farmers that
00:25:41.250 --> 00:25:43.450
are trying to export their goods to foreign markets
00:25:43.450 --> 00:25:45.369
because we have a less reliable system, they
00:25:45.369 --> 00:25:47.869
become more costly. We're going to lose food
00:25:47.869 --> 00:25:50.109
security. We're going to lose our family farms.
00:25:50.210 --> 00:25:52.509
We're going to lose farms of all type. And I
00:25:52.509 --> 00:25:54.950
think it's going to have a huge impact on Washington's
00:25:54.950 --> 00:25:59.759
economy and the regional economy. So we've talked
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:04.339
a lot about the issues that most of us have heard
00:26:04.339 --> 00:26:07.339
about for a number of years. One thing that has
00:26:07.339 --> 00:26:13.660
changed in very recent years and change that
00:26:13.660 --> 00:26:20.019
power demand structure is the advent of, I guess
00:26:20.019 --> 00:26:24.799
not advent, the explosion of AI and the data
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:28.119
centers that they need that puts a lot of demand
00:26:28.119 --> 00:26:32.339
on the power system. And so, you know, for example,
00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:35.240
the Power Council is saying that demand could
00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:38.750
double in the next 20 years. And we'll need another
00:26:38.750 --> 00:26:43.670
11 ,000 megawatts by 2032. You know, I'm guessing
00:26:43.670 --> 00:26:46.109
we probably don't have a lot of other places
00:26:46.109 --> 00:26:50.190
to make that kind of headway. So as a result
00:26:50.190 --> 00:26:53.549
of that, I'm curious because our members are
00:26:53.549 --> 00:26:55.589
interacting with the data centers in a number
00:26:55.589 --> 00:26:58.809
of different ways. Obviously, they're part utilizer,
00:26:58.869 --> 00:27:03.089
but also they're permitters and in some cases
00:27:03.089 --> 00:27:06.329
are getting. a lot of pushback from their residents
00:27:06.329 --> 00:27:09.789
on these for a variety of reasons. I'm curious
00:27:09.789 --> 00:27:14.569
how that interacts with your organization and
00:27:14.569 --> 00:27:17.309
what you're working on, because that increase
00:27:17.309 --> 00:27:20.750
in demand seems like it only puts more pressure
00:27:20.750 --> 00:27:25.230
on protecting the dams than where we were at
00:27:25.230 --> 00:27:28.230
a few years ago, even. Yeah, I think it's a great
00:27:28.230 --> 00:27:31.269
point. And I think it's important to think about
00:27:32.049 --> 00:27:34.529
electric usage in the Northwest historically.
00:27:35.130 --> 00:27:37.609
And then you think about the challenges we face
00:27:37.609 --> 00:27:42.410
now. I mean, the Northwest has long had large
00:27:42.410 --> 00:27:47.450
users of electricity, Boeing, Nucor, other large
00:27:47.450 --> 00:27:49.609
entities in the region have used lots of electricity.
00:27:49.809 --> 00:27:52.990
We used to have aluminum smelters that were all
00:27:52.990 --> 00:27:58.450
over the Northwest. And now we are in a position
00:27:58.450 --> 00:28:01.670
where Washington State Its population has grown,
00:28:01.789 --> 00:28:03.430
I think, from something like five and a half
00:28:03.430 --> 00:28:05.470
to six million people at the turn of the century.
00:28:05.529 --> 00:28:08.150
Now we have eight million people living in Washington.
00:28:09.329 --> 00:28:12.890
At the same time, Washington state has put in
00:28:12.890 --> 00:28:17.470
place a lot of policies to not only take emitting
00:28:17.470 --> 00:28:21.029
resources off over a period of time in state
00:28:21.029 --> 00:28:23.990
policy, but there's also a lot of policies in
00:28:23.990 --> 00:28:26.250
place to electrify transportation, electrify
00:28:26.250 --> 00:28:29.859
buildings. And then you have this growth of data
00:28:29.859 --> 00:28:33.480
centers and other new large users in the region.
00:28:33.740 --> 00:28:37.339
What I have seen and just to speak about what
00:28:37.339 --> 00:28:40.720
I've observed amongst our public utility members
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:44.799
are really thoughtful conversations about how
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:49.440
to accept all sorts of new large loads into the
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:52.599
region, including data centers, and how to manage
00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:56.509
or isolate the costs. of serving those new large
00:28:56.509 --> 00:29:00.269
users compared to the, let's say, legacy costs
00:29:00.269 --> 00:29:04.509
of their current residential or business or agricultural
00:29:04.509 --> 00:29:06.769
customers, particularly if you're in Central
00:29:06.769 --> 00:29:10.509
Washington, irrigated ag is a huge user of electricity
00:29:10.509 --> 00:29:12.630
and obviously very price sensitive given the
00:29:12.630 --> 00:29:17.950
cost of water. And so I've just seen very thoughtful,
00:29:18.069 --> 00:29:21.670
good conversations where this consumer -owned
00:29:21.670 --> 00:29:24.549
utility model that my current utilities. employ
00:29:24.549 --> 00:29:27.950
has really shown that it can be responsive to
00:29:27.950 --> 00:29:29.930
community needs where I've seen commissioners
00:29:29.930 --> 00:29:33.329
and elected officials listen. And amongst my
00:29:33.329 --> 00:29:35.509
membership, there are differing approaches to
00:29:35.509 --> 00:29:37.369
this. Some of my members have decided not to
00:29:37.369 --> 00:29:40.650
move forward with data center development. Some
00:29:40.650 --> 00:29:43.069
of our members have decided to put in place different
00:29:43.069 --> 00:29:45.750
price structures or different protections to
00:29:45.750 --> 00:29:48.109
move forward with data center development. And
00:29:48.109 --> 00:29:50.950
I think that's the beauty of this conversation
00:29:50.950 --> 00:29:53.670
is that each of our communities, each of... frankly,
00:29:53.730 --> 00:29:56.089
your counties that are served by consumer owned
00:29:56.089 --> 00:29:58.289
utilities have had to make choices about what
00:29:58.289 --> 00:30:00.170
they want to do. And you've seen different approaches
00:30:00.170 --> 00:30:02.269
to it across the state and across the Northwest.
00:30:03.269 --> 00:30:05.970
Yeah, it seems like, you know, we in a lot of
00:30:05.970 --> 00:30:08.329
other places and infrastructure, our members
00:30:08.329 --> 00:30:12.769
are fairly used to, you know, finding that balance
00:30:12.769 --> 00:30:15.869
where new growth helps pay for the infrastructure
00:30:15.869 --> 00:30:19.920
that's necessary for it. It's rare that you're
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:22.339
ever going to capture all of that because it's
00:30:22.339 --> 00:30:24.240
just there's not the right mechanism for it.
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:28.119
But it seems like that's not that unusual. What's
00:30:28.119 --> 00:30:35.480
changing this is the pace that seems to be going
00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:40.440
fairly quickly, while simultaneously we have
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:43.160
state law that is pushing us towards electrification.
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:47.440
So, you know, we're being told we want you to.
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:51.039
you know, do all of these things. And oh, by
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:53.460
the way, the prices are going to go up, because
00:30:53.460 --> 00:30:56.319
we also have a new industry that's, you know,
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:58.559
a giant energy sponge, which, you know, it's
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:00.519
producing some really interesting products, but
00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:04.859
it's definitely pretty energy intensive. So I'm
00:31:04.859 --> 00:31:08.859
not quite sure, like, that we found that way
00:31:08.859 --> 00:31:12.920
to balance that yet. But hoping we can, you know,
00:31:12.920 --> 00:31:15.180
work with our state partners and the federal
00:31:15.180 --> 00:31:17.519
government to sort through that, because I know,
00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:21.400
One fear that keeps coming up is, you know, we've
00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:25.380
been planning for XYZ industry in this area and
00:31:25.380 --> 00:31:28.339
had really been hoping to see that built. But
00:31:28.339 --> 00:31:31.420
instead, there's this other thing there and it's
00:31:31.420 --> 00:31:33.380
taking up all of our energy and we can't find
00:31:33.380 --> 00:31:38.119
enough power to, you know, supply a manufacturing
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:41.900
plant or something like that. Yeah. And I want
00:31:41.900 --> 00:31:44.099
to come back to your earlier question. I mean,
00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:49.519
we totally agree with you. that when you're looking
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:51.799
at the type of growth we're seeing in electric
00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:54.759
usage growth, population growth, your dependence
00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:58.339
on policies to electrify, you can't take out
00:31:58.339 --> 00:32:01.700
your foundational, basically always on resource,
00:32:01.900 --> 00:32:03.700
which is hydropower in Washington. Again, 60
00:32:03.700 --> 00:32:07.160
% of electricity in Washington comes from hydropower
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:10.299
and do all the things that you want to do, whether
00:32:10.299 --> 00:32:13.349
it's from an economic perspective. Or from a
00:32:13.349 --> 00:32:16.109
clean energy perspective, Washington State, because
00:32:16.109 --> 00:32:18.289
of the hydropower system and the Columbia Generating
00:32:18.289 --> 00:32:20.509
Station, has some of the cleanest electricity
00:32:20.509 --> 00:32:23.890
on Earth. If you turn that off, you almost certainly
00:32:23.890 --> 00:32:26.829
have to replace it with something else over time.
00:32:27.269 --> 00:32:30.750
And because of the growth we have seen in the
00:32:30.750 --> 00:32:33.589
Northwest, because of data centers, again, of
00:32:33.589 --> 00:32:36.220
the other factors we've talked about, we are
00:32:36.220 --> 00:32:39.680
facing a huge challenge right now. How do you
00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:42.319
build the new infrastructure? You pointed to
00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:44.059
the Power Council's number. I think you said
00:32:44.059 --> 00:32:46.240
it was 11 ,000 megawatts. There's all sorts of
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.200
studies that are in that ballpark. Just to put
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:52.940
that into perspective, 11 ,000 megawatts is roughly
00:32:52.940 --> 00:32:58.119
9 or 10 City of Seattle's type of usage in the
00:32:58.119 --> 00:33:01.519
region. The entire state of Oregon, I've been
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:05.920
told, uses about 9 ,000 megawatts a year. And
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:09.539
so you're trying to replace all of that in a
00:33:09.539 --> 00:33:15.109
very... sure period of time. At the same time,
00:33:15.190 --> 00:33:19.390
and again, it comes back to our policy disagreements
00:33:19.390 --> 00:33:22.809
with Governor Ferguson and Governor Kotak, you
00:33:22.809 --> 00:33:25.109
can't do that and at the same time turn down
00:33:25.109 --> 00:33:28.690
your foundational electric resource that provides
00:33:28.690 --> 00:33:31.970
most of your electricity in Washington in a very
00:33:31.970 --> 00:33:36.710
affordable, reliable, clean way. And so we are
00:33:36.710 --> 00:33:38.789
going to have to make some tough choices about
00:33:38.789 --> 00:33:41.619
what we're going to do. And our argument is,
00:33:41.619 --> 00:33:43.440
is we think there's a path forward where we can
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:46.460
protect and potentially grow the output of the
00:33:46.460 --> 00:33:49.200
federal system and the non -federal hydropower
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:52.680
dams and have strong fish returns and continue
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:55.519
to make progress to work with sovereign tribes
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:57.500
to attain the rights that were promised to them
00:33:57.500 --> 00:34:01.440
by the United States and others. So we've obviously
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:04.619
talked a lot about like kind of the scariness
00:34:04.619 --> 00:34:07.099
of all this, you know, about not having enough
00:34:07.099 --> 00:34:12.170
power and. or what dam removal or inhibiting
00:34:12.170 --> 00:34:16.989
dam operations could do. Tell me about some conversations
00:34:16.989 --> 00:34:20.550
that are happening that give you some hope that
00:34:20.550 --> 00:34:24.590
these seemingly intractable interests might actually
00:34:24.590 --> 00:34:27.269
be able to come to an agreement that works out
00:34:27.269 --> 00:34:30.320
for everybody. Well, I'd start with a couple
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:32.119
of things. As I talked about, the vast majority
00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:35.900
of people on a bipartisan basis support the hydropower
00:34:35.900 --> 00:34:42.920
system. That the concern today about affordability,
00:34:43.059 --> 00:34:46.559
I think, is also going it's creating a reality
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:48.940
for people that we need to make sure that our
00:34:48.940 --> 00:34:51.800
policies are encouraging affordability in all
00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:55.039
aspects of life for everyday people in Washington,
00:34:55.179 --> 00:34:57.420
around the Northwest. Hydropower is our most
00:34:57.420 --> 00:35:00.900
affordable source of electricity. We I'm very
00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:03.639
proud to work for an organization. Frankly, all
00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:05.519
of the organizations I've worked in in my career
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:08.639
have encouraged conversation. You know, you brought
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:11.739
up Congressman Dix. was very fortunate to sit
00:35:11.739 --> 00:35:14.980
at tables with the congressmen and tribal leaders
00:35:14.980 --> 00:35:18.579
like billy frank where they worked out agreements
00:35:18.579 --> 00:35:21.079
where that helped move this towards attaining
00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:23.579
tribal treaty rights and also dealt with a whole
00:35:23.579 --> 00:35:25.780
set of thorny issues they worked those things
00:35:25.780 --> 00:35:30.070
out together that's the ethic that i witnessed
00:35:30.070 --> 00:35:32.590
in in northwest river partners we try to go out
00:35:32.590 --> 00:35:34.610
and have those conversations whether it's with
00:35:34.610 --> 00:35:37.769
the states of washington oregon or some of the
00:35:37.769 --> 00:35:40.829
tribes that are actually in litigation against
00:35:40.829 --> 00:35:43.309
the federal hydropower system or anyone else
00:35:43.309 --> 00:35:46.110
that wants to talk. We're trying to find those
00:35:46.110 --> 00:35:49.170
solutions that move everyone forward together.
00:35:49.630 --> 00:35:53.429
The thing that I'm probably most proud of that
00:35:53.429 --> 00:35:55.550
my organization has supported for a long, long
00:35:55.550 --> 00:35:59.090
time, even predates me, is the work that led
00:35:59.090 --> 00:36:02.809
by some of the tribes on the upper Columbia River
00:36:02.809 --> 00:36:06.030
that were basically had fish passage blocked
00:36:06.030 --> 00:36:08.130
when Grand Coulee went into operation in the
00:36:08.130 --> 00:36:12.340
early 1940s. So those tribes, the Colville tribe,
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:14.960
the Coeur d 'Alene tribe, the Spokane tribe and
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:18.059
their organization, the Upper Columbia United
00:36:18.059 --> 00:36:21.639
Tribes, have worked for a long, long time to
00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:24.679
try and right candidly what is a historic wrong.
00:36:24.780 --> 00:36:28.579
The fact that they lost access to sustenance
00:36:28.579 --> 00:36:32.000
through fish, the cultural significance of salmon.
00:36:32.059 --> 00:36:35.480
And for years they have been working to get a
00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:38.340
commitment. on how to solve that problem and
00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:42.420
in 2023 just before i took on this job the bonneville
00:36:42.420 --> 00:36:45.719
power administration committed 200 million dollars
00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:49.039
200 million dollars from rate payers to study
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:52.260
solutions on what is known as the phase two implementation
00:36:52.260 --> 00:36:54.780
plan like how do you how do you get fish up above
00:36:54.780 --> 00:36:57.219
not only grand coulee but chief joseph dam the
00:36:57.219 --> 00:36:59.980
dam immediately downstream that does not have
00:36:59.980 --> 00:37:02.880
fish passage northwest river partners under my
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:06.570
predecessor kurt miller and now with our current
00:37:06.570 --> 00:37:09.510
board, has gone out and actually met with those
00:37:09.510 --> 00:37:13.090
tribal leaders to share our support and offer
00:37:13.090 --> 00:37:15.849
our support for what we could do to help them
00:37:15.849 --> 00:37:19.929
on fish passage. In the summer of 25, we went
00:37:19.929 --> 00:37:21.789
out to Airway Heights and met with several of
00:37:21.789 --> 00:37:25.090
those folks. And ultimately, you know, we had
00:37:25.090 --> 00:37:28.630
to do some work to keep that program going with
00:37:28.630 --> 00:37:32.289
the current administration. And when you think
00:37:32.289 --> 00:37:36.280
about the opportunity, to bring back more than
00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:40.469
100 ,000 fish to that part of the world. When
00:37:40.469 --> 00:37:43.230
you hear about some of the early work where they're
00:37:43.230 --> 00:37:46.010
putting juveniles in the river and those fish
00:37:46.010 --> 00:37:47.989
are coming back, hundreds of adults have come
00:37:47.989 --> 00:37:52.250
back as part of their testing. And the opportunity
00:37:52.250 --> 00:37:55.889
to be part of something that not only helps us
00:37:55.889 --> 00:37:57.849
move us toward attaining those tribal rights,
00:37:57.929 --> 00:38:00.510
brings more fish back to the river, but also
00:38:00.510 --> 00:38:04.539
these tribes do not want to have impacts. on
00:38:04.539 --> 00:38:07.440
the existing system they simply want fish and
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:09.699
their executive order or treaty rights upheld
00:38:09.699 --> 00:38:14.039
that to me is gives me hope that through conversation
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:17.920
and collaboration we can find solutions to these
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:20.639
really sticky issues and again that's why we
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:24.000
hope that with the leadership of governors and
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:26.840
others we can set a table where we can find these
00:38:26.840 --> 00:38:28.659
solutions that move everyone forward together
00:38:28.659 --> 00:38:32.369
and so from your organization's perspective the
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:38.099
the the the framing of you know having fish against
00:38:38.099 --> 00:38:41.820
power against you know dams but that's just not
00:38:41.820 --> 00:38:46.369
a um that's not the right narrative that there's
00:38:46.369 --> 00:38:50.309
a way for both to exist absolutely my my members
00:38:50.309 --> 00:38:54.900
absolutely care about getting more fish back
00:38:54.900 --> 00:38:57.480
in our rivers they want to mitigate the impacts
00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:00.699
of the hydropower system and as i mentioned earlier
00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:04.079
We think we've made progress in that way. Again,
00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:07.269
fish returns have nearly tripled into the federal
00:39:07.269 --> 00:39:11.130
system. But we also know that not everything's
00:39:11.130 --> 00:39:15.250
perfect. And so how can we, again, address those
00:39:15.250 --> 00:39:17.769
parts of the system that are not working well
00:39:17.769 --> 00:39:21.489
for salmon to understand sovereign tribal perspectives
00:39:21.489 --> 00:39:26.170
on these issues? They have a longer history in
00:39:26.170 --> 00:39:30.110
the area than most of our ancestors do here.
00:39:30.730 --> 00:39:33.449
So what can we do to move forward together? We
00:39:33.449 --> 00:39:35.969
want to find those solutions. And frankly, we
00:39:35.969 --> 00:39:38.650
need elected leadership to set that table for
00:39:38.650 --> 00:39:44.090
us. And, you know, although like the direct nexus
00:39:44.090 --> 00:39:47.909
between county government and these issues, it's
00:39:47.909 --> 00:39:50.650
not as obvious. You know, obviously, they're
00:39:50.650 --> 00:39:52.550
consumers, they have to power their buildings,
00:39:52.650 --> 00:39:56.710
and they're affected by prices. But a lot of
00:39:56.710 --> 00:39:59.690
the permitting kind of flies at other levels.
00:40:00.940 --> 00:40:03.380
But obviously, county commissioners are leaders
00:40:03.380 --> 00:40:05.440
in their community. They understand their economic
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:09.820
interests and recreational interests as well
00:40:09.820 --> 00:40:14.679
as anybody else. How can they engage in a productive
00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:19.079
way to help with those conversations? Yeah. So
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:21.380
on the phase two implementation plan, that work
00:40:21.380 --> 00:40:23.360
on the upper Columbia River, the Stevens County
00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:27.159
Commission weighed in on that. That's I mean,
00:40:27.179 --> 00:40:30.599
that was a huge demonstration of support. To
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:33.960
have a local government supporting this tribally
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:38.260
led fish passage project, that meant a ton. And
00:40:38.260 --> 00:40:41.440
honestly, the reason, again, I'll come back to
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:44.059
the story from the early part of the century.
00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:46.460
The reason we have the system we have, the reason
00:40:46.460 --> 00:40:49.599
we have public utility districts and Grand Coulee
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:51.719
Dam and all those things is because leaders in
00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:55.239
local communities decided that it was a priority.
00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:57.539
I mean, President Roosevelt, again, he wasn't
00:40:57.539 --> 00:41:00.280
thinking about these things. when he was in Albany
00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:03.340
as the governor of New York. These solutions
00:41:03.340 --> 00:41:06.940
were in the works for decades, led by people
00:41:06.940 --> 00:41:10.320
at local and community and regional levels in
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:13.210
the region. So when you think about the impacts
00:41:13.210 --> 00:41:16.210
from an electricity perspective and the impact
00:41:16.210 --> 00:41:19.650
that would have on local schools or county facilities
00:41:19.650 --> 00:41:22.909
or a local rural hospital that's struggling to
00:41:22.909 --> 00:41:25.429
hang on given the changing economics of health
00:41:25.429 --> 00:41:28.750
care these days. We think that county leaders
00:41:28.750 --> 00:41:32.110
should be invested and should actively advocate
00:41:32.110 --> 00:41:35.530
to protect the hydropower system. If you're in
00:41:35.530 --> 00:41:39.130
Whitman County or Esotan County or Columbia County
00:41:39.130 --> 00:41:42.469
and you're tied directly to dryland wheat farming
00:41:42.469 --> 00:41:45.789
and the future of that river transportation system,
00:41:46.130 --> 00:41:49.889
we hope that you will join us in advocating with
00:41:49.889 --> 00:41:53.230
your state legislature, the governor, the congressional
00:41:53.230 --> 00:41:56.590
delegation to talk about how important all the
00:41:56.590 --> 00:41:59.510
hydropower system is. And if you're anywhere
00:41:59.510 --> 00:42:01.769
in the state that's served by a Bonneville off
00:42:01.769 --> 00:42:03.610
-taker or even the investor -owned utilities
00:42:03.610 --> 00:42:06.230
that have their own hydro facilities, talking
00:42:06.230 --> 00:42:08.929
about the value of hydropower as an always -on,
00:42:09.030 --> 00:42:12.969
affordable, clean energy resource is a really
00:42:12.969 --> 00:42:16.130
important thing for the region. And if we're
00:42:16.130 --> 00:42:18.269
going to turn this around, I mean, you know this,
00:42:18.349 --> 00:42:21.670
you have been a policymaker, Derek, and you know
00:42:21.670 --> 00:42:24.969
what moves people. It's going to take that drumbeat
00:42:24.969 --> 00:42:28.389
of a broad coalition of people saying that this
00:42:28.389 --> 00:42:31.869
is vitally important to my county, to my state,
00:42:32.030 --> 00:42:35.289
to my community, to really turn this around and
00:42:35.289 --> 00:42:37.329
get some policies in place that protect and help
00:42:37.329 --> 00:42:39.869
grow the effectiveness of our hydropower system.
00:42:41.079 --> 00:42:44.300
Absolutely. Yeah, I actually think that a lot
00:42:44.300 --> 00:42:48.980
of our members underestimate the degree to which
00:42:48.980 --> 00:42:51.739
our state and federal lawmakers listen to them.
00:42:51.949 --> 00:42:53.929
Obviously, we get frustrated when they don't.
00:42:54.090 --> 00:43:00.909
And that's an issue. But, you know, they're the
00:43:00.909 --> 00:43:02.630
boots on the ground. They're the implementers
00:43:02.630 --> 00:43:05.030
of policy. They're the people that see what's
00:43:05.030 --> 00:43:07.170
happening in the community. They're talking to
00:43:07.170 --> 00:43:10.130
their neighbors more often. And so, you know,
00:43:10.190 --> 00:43:13.690
when Senator Cantwell or Murray or their members
00:43:13.690 --> 00:43:15.949
of Congress and maybe, you know, one of our own
00:43:15.949 --> 00:43:20.869
members becoming the. uh joining the house of
00:43:20.869 --> 00:43:23.190
representatives the u .s house and uh the fourth
00:43:23.190 --> 00:43:25.650
district there at commissioner mckinney's running
00:43:25.650 --> 00:43:29.210
for that seat um and in part i think this is
00:43:29.210 --> 00:43:31.349
a big part of the reason that she decided to
00:43:31.349 --> 00:43:35.090
run was those you know um the needs of the the
00:43:35.090 --> 00:43:39.389
uh the river system there um so yeah i i would
00:43:39.389 --> 00:43:41.909
definitely encourage our members to uh voice
00:43:41.909 --> 00:43:45.469
their concerns and and and help look for solutions
00:43:45.469 --> 00:43:49.690
and very obviously um they can help be that that
00:43:49.690 --> 00:43:53.710
you know convener in their communities um so
00:43:53.710 --> 00:43:56.230
yeah if you don't mind i would just say i mean
00:43:56.230 --> 00:43:59.369
you were we were exchanging some messages about
00:43:59.369 --> 00:44:02.289
your organization's position i mean that's the
00:44:02.289 --> 00:44:06.090
type first of all having a position on the hydropower
00:44:06.090 --> 00:44:08.750
system and all of its benefits hugely important
00:44:08.750 --> 00:44:12.730
just acknowledging this huge thing for all people
00:44:12.730 --> 00:44:16.329
in washington and i I would just compliment you
00:44:16.329 --> 00:44:19.289
and the Association of Counties on your position
00:44:19.289 --> 00:44:22.369
because it's really a balanced position. It wants
00:44:22.369 --> 00:44:25.309
to move forward on fish. It wants to protect
00:44:25.309 --> 00:44:29.369
the hydropower system. It wants it to be a science
00:44:29.369 --> 00:44:32.469
-backed -based solution. So do we. And so if
00:44:32.469 --> 00:44:35.210
we can have a debate based on science and facts
00:44:35.210 --> 00:44:36.949
and trying to move people forward together, which
00:44:36.949 --> 00:44:40.510
I think is very much ingrained in what the Association
00:44:40.510 --> 00:44:42.929
of Counties has put forward, that's what we want
00:44:42.929 --> 00:44:46.130
to. Yeah, and that's exactly where I was going
00:44:46.130 --> 00:44:49.210
to go with it, is that WSAC's position is very
00:44:49.210 --> 00:44:53.570
consistent with this whole theme. It's that we
00:44:53.570 --> 00:44:58.409
want to see more done to bring back salmon. But
00:44:58.409 --> 00:45:00.429
we want to see that not only in the river system,
00:45:00.510 --> 00:45:03.590
but frankly, in the Puget Sound area too. I have
00:45:03.590 --> 00:45:06.469
to note that one of the reasons that our worker
00:45:06.469 --> 00:45:10.449
population is struggling isn't because of the
00:45:10.449 --> 00:45:13.150
dams. It is because... of upland development
00:45:13.150 --> 00:45:15.889
in the Puget Sound region have choked off salmon
00:45:15.889 --> 00:45:18.809
development in our area. So we're busy cleaning
00:45:18.809 --> 00:45:22.150
all that up. The culvert issue is something our
00:45:22.150 --> 00:45:25.150
members think about a lot. But frankly, we've
00:45:25.150 --> 00:45:27.250
got a very long way to go on that as well. But
00:45:27.250 --> 00:45:29.690
it's always with that in the back of mind. It's
00:45:29.690 --> 00:45:32.210
like we know what the solution is. How do we
00:45:32.210 --> 00:45:35.989
get a responsible way to do it that's cost effective,
00:45:36.289 --> 00:45:39.130
that's going to be fixing the right things and
00:45:39.130 --> 00:45:42.179
not causing more harm than good? That's right.
00:45:42.300 --> 00:45:44.079
Yeah. And those are the solutions we want to
00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:48.590
find, too. So before we wrap up here, if you're
00:45:48.590 --> 00:45:52.590
a commissioner listening to this on 2 .0 speed,
00:45:52.849 --> 00:45:57.079
what three things do you want them to take away?
00:45:57.159 --> 00:45:58.940
What do you want them to remember from this conversation?
00:45:59.699 --> 00:46:02.019
Yeah, I mean, hydropower, the hydropower system
00:46:02.019 --> 00:46:05.780
is just absolutely ingrained in all corners,
00:46:06.019 --> 00:46:08.739
all parts of the state. Again, whether you're
00:46:08.739 --> 00:46:11.690
a beneficiary of the. electricity system, river
00:46:11.690 --> 00:46:15.489
transportation, irrigation, flood control, which
00:46:15.489 --> 00:46:18.230
we haven't talked really much about. It is a
00:46:18.230 --> 00:46:20.230
really important part of the state. Standing
00:46:20.230 --> 00:46:22.809
up for it is important. If you're concerned about
00:46:22.809 --> 00:46:26.190
affordability, which most people are, 88 % of
00:46:26.190 --> 00:46:28.130
people in Washington say the cost of electricity
00:46:28.130 --> 00:46:32.210
is their number one concern in our survey. You
00:46:32.210 --> 00:46:34.869
want to protect the hydropower system in the
00:46:34.869 --> 00:46:36.929
region. We want to make sure that electricity
00:46:36.929 --> 00:46:40.639
is affordable and reliable. And again, we think,
00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:43.400
as you all think about your legislative agenda
00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:45.360
and what to prioritize, it goes back to where
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:48.059
we just were. If we can bring people together,
00:46:48.380 --> 00:46:50.420
whether it's food banks, which have been part
00:46:50.420 --> 00:46:54.780
of our work, county commissioners, labor, agriculture,
00:46:55.179 --> 00:46:59.440
utility customers, that coalition together would
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:02.440
speak with a really loud voice. And if we can
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:05.539
urge our policymakers to not just blindly support
00:47:05.539 --> 00:47:08.110
the hydropower system. But to help find those
00:47:08.110 --> 00:47:10.389
balanced solutions that move us all four together,
00:47:10.610 --> 00:47:13.449
get us out of the courtroom, find solutions that
00:47:13.449 --> 00:47:16.769
work for salmon and tribes and people. That's
00:47:16.769 --> 00:47:18.429
what we want to do. And we think that's the path
00:47:18.429 --> 00:47:20.769
forward. That's great. It's a great place to
00:47:20.769 --> 00:47:23.710
end. Thank you very much, Clark. Before we let
00:47:23.710 --> 00:47:27.489
you go, where can people find your work? Yeah,
00:47:27.530 --> 00:47:29.889
so you can go to our website, Northwest River
00:47:29.889 --> 00:47:34.269
Partners at NW River Partners. So N -W -R -I
00:47:34.269 --> 00:47:39.730
-V -E -R. P -A -R -T -N -E -R -S dot O -R -G,
00:47:39.909 --> 00:47:43.130
Northwest River Partners dot O -R -G. I was really
00:47:43.130 --> 00:47:45.269
hoping to catch you in a misspelling there. I
00:47:45.269 --> 00:47:47.230
was worried about it. I was really worried about
00:47:47.230 --> 00:47:50.530
it. Thanks, Clark. It's been great to chat with
00:47:50.530 --> 00:47:56.199
you. Derek, thank you so much. Thanks for tuning
00:47:56.199 --> 00:47:58.420
in to County Connection. Stay in the loop by
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