Valuing People’s Time

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All right,
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this is all right.
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I got it under wraps.
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Now get us out of side up tight.
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Welcome to Conflict Managed.
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I'm your host Merry Brown.
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Have you ever worked on a project investing your time,
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effort and energy only to find out your boss or organization didn't really care about what you worked on or maybe they never even looked at it? Today
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on Conflict Managed.
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Dr Kevin Timpe discusses the importance of valuing workers through respecting their time.
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Kevin talks about the value of clarifying work expectations,
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the role of strong emotions in the workplace and his A.
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D.
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A advocacy work,
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Kevin Timpe is professor and department chair of philosophy at Calvin University.
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He holds the endowed
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William H. Jellema Chair in Christian Philosophy. .
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His academic interests include free will virtue,
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ethics,
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philosophy of religion,
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philosophy of disability and metaphysics.
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Kevin has written a lot of books and articles have posted some of his most recent work in the show notes.
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But for a full accounting,
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I encourage you to go over to his Calvin University bio page and it has a full accounting of what he's been up to.
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Kevin also runs a disability advocacy group,
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22 Advocacy that focuses primarily on helping families of disabled students get the support they're supposed to get under federal education law.
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Kevin has three kids and a wife that he loves dearly and he also loves coffee.
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Hello Kevin and welcome to Conflict Managed.
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Hello Merry,
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it's good to be here today.
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It's so great to have you.
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We're just gonna jump right into it.
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Will you tell me a little bit about your work history?
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Sure.
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I teach at Calvin University,
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this is the third university that I have taught at in the philosophy department and I have been in a university setting after earning my PhD for something like 18 years now.
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Um Most of that has just been as the member of a department but for the past year I have also served as department chair.
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What did you do before you went off to college?
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Did you have any um like high school jobs?
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Yeah I grew up along with my brother mowing lawns in our neighborhood.
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I babysat in the summers um quite a bit as a child sometimes even up to full time.
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And then I spent much of my high school working at a video store back back when there were video stores before Blockbuster even came to the small Ohio town that I grew up in.
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Oh wow.
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So when you were in college did you um did you have a job?
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Yeah I think I worked at the video store for a little bit in college as well.
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I went to college in the town that I grew up in.
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So that was easy and I spent at least a year or two working at a deli at the next town over on their college campus making sandwiches,
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selling college student cigarettes and caffeine.
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And and would work in the summer.
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Either at the Y.
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M.
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C.
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A.
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Where I taught rollerblading and it's some other programming.
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Uh And also spent a summer making industrial electric switchgear that were basically like fuse boxes for entire cities.
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It's this very varied um early work history.
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So when you think about your early work history and um all the different kinds of things that you did before you got into academia,
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what's the best early work experience you had and what was good about it for you?
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Um I loved working at the video store.
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My brother who is two years older started working there before I did.
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We would sometimes work together.
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Um Any conflict was just sort of the natural conflict that comes between age teenage brothers.
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Um But it was an opportunity where you know if if there wasn't anybody in the store.
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So basically as long as it wasn't their weekends night when we were entertaining half the town we could watch movies.
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Uh you know listen to movies,
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listen to concerts,
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why we dusted or did other things in the shop.
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And it was just a lot of fun.
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It was really flexible.
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Low pressure people came in,
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you talked to them about book your movie recommendations and sometimes did homework.
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So the flexibility was great.
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Now I think it's interesting to look at people's early career because a lot of of course your students know you as dr Tempe you know full professor who has this particular kind of job and how do you know how do you get there?
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And uh apparently it's blockbuster or something else like that mowing lawns,
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babysitting.
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I was uh church janitor for a number of years when I was getting my masters as well.
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So add that to the very very list of things that I have done.
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Do you think those varied occupations that you had?
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How have they informed what kind of colleague you are today?
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That's a good question.
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And I'm not sure that they definitely have.
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I mean,
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a lot of the jobs that I've done involved working with people,
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but not always.
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Um you know,
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so when I'm mowing,
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I'd have to talk to people whose yard I was mowing or talk to my dad when I broke something on the tractor.
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Um you know,
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but for 45 minutes to an hour and a half,
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it's just me and my headphones.
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And in high school my Metallica just having a good old time listening to music.
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Um When I was a church janitor,
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I also,
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you know cleaned during the week when there wasn't a whole lot going on listening to stuff on my headphones.
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Um So I've always,
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I mean a lot of the jobs have have had a fair bit of uh time to myself though,
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that's also not true of when I worked in the factory,
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I was working on part of a team,
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some of the metal work that we did was too heavy.
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Um And so I just had to,
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you know,
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learn to get along with folks anywhere from my brother to the sort of folks that work in heavy machinery factories in small town,
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Ohio in the nineties to,
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you know,
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pastors and church secretary.
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So quite a wide range of folks,
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um,
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that I had to engage with and and figure out what sort of background they were coming from,
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what sort of relationship that they,
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or what sort of encounter that they expected in some kind of work,
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uh,
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interaction.
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And uh,
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you know,
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most of the time,
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I,
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I'm actually a really profound introvert,
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which a lot of my,
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I learned how to fake that in the classroom or to hide it in the classroom.
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A lot of my students don't get that,
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but often I just want,
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you know,
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to the best that I can be to,
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to let uh,
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sort of,
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let to be trusted to have the opportunity to go off and do the job that I'm supposed to do and uh,
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you know,
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work as well as I can.
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It sounds like a lot of your early work experiences are kind of similar to being the professor life where there are certain things that you have to do and you have a certain constituents,
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but a lot of the time is self directed,
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right?
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You decide what you're going to write,
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that you're gonna read what you're going to,
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how you're gonna put your classes together,
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there is committee work,
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there is all of that,
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but a lot of it is work that is directed by you.
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Yeah,
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I've found myself saying a lot over the past at least decade that the flexibility of being an academic is the best part of the job and it's also the worst part of the job.
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I mean it's great.
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We have,
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my wife and I have three Children.
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I spend a lot of time uh involved with being their parent often leave campus sort of before the end of the workday to pick them up from school to take them to volleyball lesson or practice or swim lessons or something like that.
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So the flexibility of being able to do that is fantastic.
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It just means that at 10 o'clock at night when I put them to bed I've got to get that work done.
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And since there's always way more work than there is time to do the work,
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it's never as if,
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I don't know the last time that I've ever hit the end of my to do list.
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And so the flexibility is wonderful except the same things that go into making the flexibility also make it so that the job is never ending.
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There's always more course prep you could do,
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there's always more writing you could do.
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Um It seems like there's always more committee work to be done.
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But I really do appreciate a job that just says,
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you know this is the range of things we want you to do do them well.
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And you know,
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I don't feel like I'm micromanaged that I have to teach this particular book or write on that particular topic.
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Yeah,
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I mean that is such a good point,
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the flexibility it gives,
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but it also takes,
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um,
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I've been in the academic world for two decades and my husband's an academic,
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um,
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Kevin and I, listeners,
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we go way back over 20 years and the work life balance I find is awful uh,
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in the sense that it's never ending.
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You can never read enough right enough.
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There's no natural stopping point and I know other professions are like that.
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But the flexibility I think takes academics unaware because yes,
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I can rearrange my schedule,
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but my husband is always working.
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I mean he is involved in the family.
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Um,
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and he,
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you know,
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is a wonderful spouse and life partner,
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but he's never done.
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Yeah.
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And,
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and just sort of the looming over your head that there's always more to being,
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even if you worked enough for the day,
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you know,
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it's not like you've ever reached a natural stopping point.
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And so even if you have done enough and want to go take a walk or go to the gym or read a book,
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just just for pleasure,
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it's not as if you ever sort of leave those things behind.
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Um,
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you know,
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the,
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the to do list is always there in the back and even when I'm just reading a book or listening to an audiobook for,
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for nothing other than pleasure.
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I'll often find that ideas come up that make me think about or even connect to some of my res search.
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And so even my downtime,
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sometimes I'm like,
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huh,
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I wonder what I need to think about this in connection to some paper that I'm writing or a conference presentation that I'm giving.
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So it's,
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it's really hard to sort of turn off the mental life that goes with being an academic.
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But part of that is just the kind of folks that are gonna go into being professors are,
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are likely to be the sorts of folks that probably couldn't have turned it off very well.
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Anyway.
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That's a good point.
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That could be in any sort of industry in facing the same issues though.
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It seems to me in academia,
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people prize flexibility.
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They don't want to be micromanaged.
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I mean,
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who does?
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So when you think about the department chair or dean,
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uh,
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what are the,
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what do you think are the kinds of things that could have happen in the academy that supports faculty,
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but also encourages them to be able to turn it off.
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That's a good question.
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Um,
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I mean,
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sometimes there are things as a department chair,
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especially,
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I'm sure as a dean,
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I've never been a dean,
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I'm not sure that I ever want to be a dean or would be a good dean,
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but there are certain things that you have to encourage the folks in your department to do.
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Uh and often there are the very things that I as faculty member would myself hate having somebody else make me do.
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Um and so one of my,
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one of the ways in which I approach my job as department chair is to try to be clear,
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this is something that we have to get done.
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It has to be done by a certain day,
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you know,
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and it doesn't have to be perfect.
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I often tell my colleagues the goal here is dissatisfied.
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It is to have it not the best possible way that it can be,
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it can be,
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it just needs to be good enough to make whoever that we needs us to do this report or this kind of task satisfied so that we don't have to spend any more time,
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Right?
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So that's the relevant bar,
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we want it to be just good enough to then be able to direct our time back to the other things that we want to do.
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And so I think that telling my uh colleagues that trying to keep some of the even smaller day to day trivial decisions that take up so much and tasks to take up so much of our lives just uh to do a fair bit of those uh on behalf of my department,
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just so that they don't have to get into it.
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Uh so recently one of our big projects this summer is we had to redesign our entire departments curriculum um from three credit courses to four credit courses,
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we had just spent the previous three years redoing the major redoing the core,
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the general education for the university.
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Uh and so we thought we were kind of done with us,
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but then,
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you know,
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the the task comes down from the provost that we're going to redesign the entire university's curriculum around for credit and some two credit courses which forced us to then redo everything that we had just done.
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00:13:47,490 --> 00:13:49,520
Uh And there were some tasks that I needed,
247
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,900
my departmental colleagues to do.
248
00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:54,920
And I just said you do these three things,
249
00:13:54,930 --> 00:13:55,550
other colleagues,
250
00:13:55,550 --> 00:13:57,240
you do these four things,
251
00:13:57,250 --> 00:14:00,260
but some of the really small trivial stuff.
252
00:14:00,270 --> 00:14:02,630
Um I could have spent maybe,
253
00:14:03,030 --> 00:14:03,550
You know,
254
00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:09,700
30 minutes trying to make sure that the person understood what needed to be done and making sure that they got done in the right way.
255
00:14:09,710 --> 00:14:14,980
Or I could spend 15 minutes just doing it sometimes right sometimes just doing the task,
256
00:14:14,980 --> 00:14:19,120
especially when you're doing it for 30 different syllabi is just easier.
257
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:26,250
So part of my approach to being department chair is to spare my my uh.
258
00:14:26,530 --> 00:14:37,150
colleagues as many of the super small things that grow all too easily to take entire days out of research or of course prep time,
259
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,600
it seems like such a fine line to to,
260
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:39,870
you know,
261
00:14:39,870 --> 00:14:45,960
shared governance versus people talking about things and wasting wasting time.
262
00:14:45,970 --> 00:14:46,960
We don't want to waste time.
263
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,020
We want to free people to do things that are um,
264
00:14:50,030 --> 00:14:55,030
a value and flourishing for themselves in the department or wherever it is they work.
265
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:56,040
And so it's a,
266
00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:02,430
it takes a bit of wisdom right to figure that out and keep everyone informed and engaged at the proper level.
267
00:15:02,770 --> 00:15:03,110
Yeah,
268
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:03,360
I mean,
269
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:08,330
academics are really good at talking about things and debating things,
270
00:15:08,330 --> 00:15:12,690
but not all debates are worth having ad nauseam to a certain level.
271
00:15:12,950 --> 00:15:13,660
Um,
272
00:15:13,670 --> 00:15:14,720
so for instance,
273
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:19,450
I've got a colleague who just writes beautiful faculty senate reports there,
274
00:15:19,460 --> 00:15:21,500
one page uh,
275
00:15:21,510 --> 00:15:22,980
clear there.
276
00:15:22,990 --> 00:15:23,710
They've got,
277
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:24,080
you know,
278
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,260
that the relevant issues bolted.
279
00:15:26,270 --> 00:15:26,680
And,
280
00:15:26,690 --> 00:15:27,770
and uh,
281
00:15:27,780 --> 00:15:33,090
for the past two years I've served on the faculties and I keep going back to his reports because they're just so good.
282
00:15:33,090 --> 00:15:38,470
And my tendency is to want to tell my department everything that we talked about,
283
00:15:38,820 --> 00:15:39,150
But,
284
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:40,010
but they don't want to hear,
285
00:15:40,010 --> 00:15:40,280
you know,
286
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:45,290
so I model my reports off of off of my colleagues and then I always tell them,
287
00:15:45,290 --> 00:15:45,420
you know,
288
00:15:45,420 --> 00:15:46,240
if there's any of this,
289
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,590
that's not clear that you want to know more about by all means,
290
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:49,930
you know,
291
00:15:49,940 --> 00:15:51,510
we can talk about that.
292
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:51,970
Um,
293
00:15:51,980 --> 00:15:53,570
but if I can keep,
294
00:15:53,580 --> 00:15:53,950
you know,
295
00:15:53,950 --> 00:16:00,910
their weekly or monthly thinking about faculty Senate 10 minutes rather than 45 minutes.
296
00:16:00,910 --> 00:16:01,190
You know,
297
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,330
I just saved this sometime.
298
00:16:04,150 --> 00:16:04,590
Yeah,
299
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:05,710
that's a,
300
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,130
that's a really great skill,
301
00:16:07,140 --> 00:16:07,950
brevity,
302
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:08,660
right?
303
00:16:08,670 --> 00:16:10,580
To do it in the right way,
304
00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:11,970
the relevant information.
305
00:16:11,980 --> 00:16:12,530
Um,
306
00:16:12,540 --> 00:16:14,820
that's certainly a gift from any boss,
307
00:16:14,830 --> 00:16:15,360
right?
308
00:16:15,370 --> 00:16:19,310
Because everybody wants to be informed on what's relevant,
309
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:20,730
what they need to know.
310
00:16:20,740 --> 00:16:23,870
So when you think about your work in the university,
311
00:16:23,870 --> 00:16:30,100
what's the best experience you've had either with an institution with an individual with a committee?
312
00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:30,900
I mean,
313
00:16:30,910 --> 00:16:34,550
I I have just some absolutely wonderful colleagues.
314
00:16:34,550 --> 00:16:37,940
I mean I've had some wonderful colleagues at previous universities.
315
00:16:37,950 --> 00:16:38,530
Um,
316
00:16:38,540 --> 00:16:42,840
but I came to Calvin because I knew a lot of the folks in the department,
317
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:43,800
I knew its history,
318
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,580
but I just knew them as wonderful.
319
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:48,190
Some of them have been friends for a number of years.
320
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:49,740
I knew their work.
321
00:16:49,750 --> 00:16:55,780
So I came to be part of a department that had a long legacy that just had absolutely fantastic folks in it.
322
00:16:55,790 --> 00:17:02,740
And even when my university has been going through some challenging and frustrating things the past few years,
323
00:17:02,740 --> 00:17:07,900
I have everyday been grateful for the colleagues that I have here in my department.
324
00:17:07,910 --> 00:17:08,450
Uh,
325
00:17:08,460 --> 00:17:12,090
not only in my department and I've got some great colleagues around the campus,
326
00:17:12,100 --> 00:17:26,850
but when you are fortunate enough to be surrounded by like minded individuals that value you whose work you value and you've all got the same vision for what matters and what you want to devote your time to do.
327
00:17:26,850 --> 00:17:29,880
I mean that's a pretty fantastic place to be.
328
00:17:30,490 --> 00:17:32,190
That's what I mean,
329
00:17:32,190 --> 00:17:33,300
what else do we want,
330
00:17:33,310 --> 00:17:33,710
right?
331
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:34,080
You know,
332
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:34,780
to,
333
00:17:34,790 --> 00:17:35,990
to be in a place as you said,
334
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:48,660
where you feel valued and you feel respected and you respect the people around you that really does free you up to deal with disagreements in which you're going to have in a productive way because you already have that foundation.
335
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:49,860
Yeah,
336
00:17:49,870 --> 00:17:51,190
I mean,
337
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,900
I would love if that uh kind of approach,
338
00:17:56,620 --> 00:17:59,460
it was characteristic of all my encounters,
339
00:17:59,470 --> 00:17:59,800
you know,
340
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:00,980
at the universities that have been,
341
00:18:00,980 --> 00:18:02,060
and it hasn't always been,
342
00:18:02,060 --> 00:18:10,450
but even when I've got frustrations with other parts of the work to be able to come to the hallway where my office is and to see colleagues and to be able to,
343
00:18:10,460 --> 00:18:14,110
to feel that where I spend most of my time and do most of my work.
344
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:15,130
It's like that,
345
00:18:15,140 --> 00:18:15,520
right?
346
00:18:15,530 --> 00:18:16,120
Um,
347
00:18:16,130 --> 00:18:17,120
it's,
348
00:18:17,130 --> 00:18:18,930
it's a really fortunate place,
349
00:18:18,940 --> 00:18:21,520
uh kind of position to be in.
350
00:18:21,530 --> 00:18:22,830
I'm very happy for you.
351
00:18:22,830 --> 00:18:23,150
That's,
352
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:24,220
that's wonderful.
353
00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:28,750
So when you think about negative experiences that you've had,
354
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:29,480
um,
355
00:18:29,490 --> 00:18:32,470
either at the university you're at or other universities,
356
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,850
what's a negative experience you had and why,
357
00:18:35,850 --> 00:18:37,670
what was negative for you about it?
358
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:39,080
Um,
359
00:18:39,090 --> 00:18:41,260
I can think of two right away.
360
00:18:41,260 --> 00:18:41,550
And,
361
00:18:41,550 --> 00:18:43,280
and so when I talk about the one,
362
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,600
don't let me forget to come back to the other.
363
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,350
I think that both can be important,
364
00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:48,820
um,
365
00:18:48,830 --> 00:18:51,690
or both sort of point to something that's important.
366
00:18:51,700 --> 00:19:02,840
One of my biggest frustrations and this has been true at least two of the universities that I've been at is that a lot of the a lot of universities like to use the language of shared governance right?
367
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:08,270
We don't want to just have sort of a top down um imposition of everything right?
368
00:19:08,270 --> 00:19:10,740
As faculty were experts in various ways,
369
00:19:10,740 --> 00:19:12,400
that doesn't mean we're experts at everything,
370
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:18,680
but we uh shared governance is the idea that faculty ought to have an active role,
371
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,640
not just in executing uh the approach of the university,
372
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,310
but deciding on central ideas,
373
00:19:25,310 --> 00:19:28,630
the mission of the university and in the direction that it should go.
374
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,640
And lots of universities like to talk about shared governance,
375
00:19:31,650 --> 00:19:36,190
but not all universities like to actually implement shared governance,
376
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:36,520
right?
377
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:54,000
So one of the frustrations is um I have spent numerous times on numerous committees at numerous campuses being asked to give substantive feedback on certain things and most of the time I try to take those requests seriously.
378
00:19:54,010 --> 00:20:04,000
Um but what gets really frustrating is when we spend a lot of time looking into giving feedback and and then just to have it not make a difference,
379
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:04,270
right?
380
00:20:04,270 --> 00:20:07,630
So sometimes the language of shared governance,
381
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:19,250
I think hides an approach that really is um faculty input and administrative execution of what they kind of wanted to do anyway.
382
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,400
Um and there are times when that might be the right approach right?
383
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:29,030
But then don't ask me to give you feedback where I'll spend three hours on a document,
384
00:20:29,030 --> 00:20:29,210
you know,
385
00:20:29,210 --> 00:20:31,160
talking about work life balance.
386
00:20:31,170 --> 00:20:41,030
Um This is one of those uh examples of this phenomenon was asked to be on a working group to talk about preserving faculty work life balance,
387
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,580
but I wasn't going to take time away from my teaching.
388
00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:46,150
I wasn't gonna take time away from my scholarship for my,
389
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:46,540
you know,
390
00:20:46,540 --> 00:20:47,200
advising stew.
391
00:20:47,210 --> 00:20:52,480
So it was something that I spent three hours doing uh you know,
392
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,990
after my kids went to bed to get feedback on all this and then,
393
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:56,570
you know,
394
00:20:56,570 --> 00:21:01,650
they implemented something and then we ran into all the problems that I had pointed out.
395
00:21:01,650 --> 00:21:04,380
We're probably going to come up with with the draft of that,
396
00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:04,610
right?
397
00:21:04,610 --> 00:21:07,220
So I just felt like here you asked for feedback,
398
00:21:07,230 --> 00:21:08,200
you don't value it,
399
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,790
you wanted to be able to say that faculty were involved,
400
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:16,510
but it was really just to say that faculty were involved not to actually listen.
401
00:21:16,510 --> 00:21:26,430
So one of the biggest frustrations is is when the time that we invest in things is not respected and there doesn't seem to be any sort of uptake.
402
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:26,950
Now,
403
00:21:26,950 --> 00:21:31,280
I know that other folks might disagree with me on what the right decision to make is right,
404
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:37,750
but there's a way to make it clear that the kind of input that you've given really was taken seriously,
405
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,460
even if it wasn't implemented,
406
00:21:39,470 --> 00:21:50,480
but I've had way too many experiences where um it just wasn't clear that the time that I spent ended up being particularly well used on my part.
407
00:21:50,490 --> 00:21:51,770
Unfortunately,
408
00:21:51,770 --> 00:21:52,930
I think that's all too common.
409
00:21:52,930 --> 00:21:56,710
People do climate surveys or some other sort of survey because we want to get the pulse,
410
00:21:56,710 --> 00:22:02,840
we want to know what the people think you tell them and you think,
411
00:22:02,850 --> 00:22:05,390
why did you ask if you're not gonna do anything about it,
412
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:11,880
why did you ask for honest feedback if you're not going to give me any feedback and it's demoralizing,
413
00:22:11,890 --> 00:22:17,220
it would be better for that organization to have never asked because then people,
414
00:22:17,230 --> 00:22:18,290
in a way don't know,
415
00:22:18,290 --> 00:22:19,630
they might just feel a little disgruntled,
416
00:22:19,630 --> 00:22:20,930
but to be asked,
417
00:22:20,940 --> 00:22:26,350
you give it and then you don't hear any follow up is much worse.
418
00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:27,330
Yeah,
419
00:22:27,340 --> 00:22:28,660
we felt we,
420
00:22:28,670 --> 00:22:31,810
my current university went through a climate survey last year,
421
00:22:31,810 --> 00:22:35,830
the data of that was released to faculty earlier this spring.
422
00:22:36,110 --> 00:22:39,390
Part of the period that they were looking at has been the pandemic,
423
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:39,740
um,
424
00:22:39,750 --> 00:22:40,150
right,
425
00:22:40,150 --> 00:22:42,970
which has made lots of things more difficult in lots of ways.
426
00:22:42,970 --> 00:22:45,010
But even compared to peer institutions,
427
00:22:45,020 --> 00:22:53,260
many of whom had actually had upticks positive growth on certain metrics during the previous 2.5 to 3 years,
428
00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:55,350
we we scored very,
429
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:58,650
very low on lots of important things.
430
00:22:58,660 --> 00:22:58,960
Um,
431
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:00,180
and we are still waiting,
432
00:23:00,180 --> 00:23:00,630
you know,
433
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:01,710
four months,
434
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:02,390
five months,
435
00:23:02,390 --> 00:23:11,660
six months after getting the results of the climate survey to know what's actually being done to change the climate.
436
00:23:11,670 --> 00:23:15,600
Um I mean one of the things that has been done is now there's more listening sessions,
437
00:23:15,610 --> 00:23:16,000
but again,
438
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:30,580
it's not always clear that the listening sessions actually result in any sort of uptake or if it's just a way to sort of like a release valve so that faculty and staff can say certain things that has then no impact.
439
00:23:30,590 --> 00:23:31,780
Um and and you know,
440
00:23:31,780 --> 00:23:44,330
sometimes it at least look like those sorts of opportunities are valued by some folks so that they could say that they sought input and not that they could actually take the input.
441
00:23:44,340 --> 00:23:44,860
That's right.
442
00:23:44,860 --> 00:23:45,690
And as you said,
443
00:23:45,690 --> 00:23:49,330
it's not as if people are are looking for or what to expect,
444
00:23:49,340 --> 00:23:51,240
their ideas are going to be taken up,
445
00:23:51,240 --> 00:24:04,090
but if you ask for input and there should be some input back as to why we're not doing this and we're doing this instead because we all want to be heard and valued and so being heard and valued is somebody,
446
00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:04,660
you know,
447
00:24:04,660 --> 00:24:06,230
you're not just talking to a brick wall,
448
00:24:06,230 --> 00:24:16,560
but many times those surveys feel like you're talking to a brick wall which then makes you feel worse about the institution and about whether or not they care it and it just wastes time.
449
00:24:16,570 --> 00:24:16,900
Right?
450
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:31,030
I mean I would I would rather know for sure that my time and uh is valued in my input isn't than make it look like my input is valued when my time is being disrespected,
451
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:31,590
right?
452
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,720
Um I would rather just have,
453
00:24:33,730 --> 00:24:35,220
you know like no offense,
454
00:24:35,230 --> 00:24:36,210
you're just a professor,
455
00:24:36,220 --> 00:24:37,860
we don't care what you think about this,
456
00:24:37,860 --> 00:24:38,810
here's what we're gonna do.
457
00:24:38,820 --> 00:24:49,790
Like okay I can disagree but at least I'm not gonna feel like um I was either sort of manipulated into giving some kind of of of response or it's just I mean going back to the,
458
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,070
you know the earlier conversation about the flexibility.
459
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,280
Um I mean two hours in the work that might not seem like a whole lot of time,
460
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,940
but some weeks that might be the only time for scholarship that a particularly faculty member has.
461
00:25:02,950 --> 00:25:06,290
So to two hours you know can matter.
462
00:25:06,290 --> 00:25:14,230
So I'd rather spend that two hours on things that I think I can make a difference in and that I care about rather than giving feedback.
463
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,200
That is so far as I can tell.
464
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,010
Just gonna be shelved and ignored.
465
00:25:19,410 --> 00:25:28,050
Yeah and it's about two hours that in a way snowballs because it builds anxiety when you your weight like I really invested and I'm excited.
466
00:25:28,060 --> 00:25:33,560
Like you have this hope and then it gets in the way dash like oh nothing has changed.
467
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,240
They said it was going to change and so it makes things worse.
468
00:25:36,250 --> 00:25:43,370
I have a bit of a love hate relationship with anonymous surveys everybody that's anonymous surveys right?
469
00:25:43,380 --> 00:25:48,440
Because if you didn't then nobody will tell you what they really think and I think to myself,
470
00:25:48,450 --> 00:25:50,260
but that seems pretty problematic,
471
00:25:50,270 --> 00:25:54,150
right that it has to be anonymous or what are you saying about the culture here.
472
00:25:54,160 --> 00:26:00,890
So part of me wants to say that the part that's a bit naive and then the realist wants to say,
473
00:26:00,890 --> 00:26:01,340
well,
474
00:26:01,340 --> 00:26:02,140
you know,
475
00:26:02,150 --> 00:26:08,180
different departments are or different areas in an organization or dumpster fires,
476
00:26:08,190 --> 00:26:09,180
others are great.
477
00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:18,530
And so you're going to be talking to some people who have really great colleagues and other people who feel like they are under the gun and so we want everyone to participate.
478
00:26:19,050 --> 00:26:20,090
I don't know.
479
00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:26,160
I think when you're anonymous then the administration doesn't have to respond because they don't quote unquote,
480
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,020
know who you are.
481
00:26:27,650 --> 00:26:27,920
Yeah,
482
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,410
I mean there certainly is.
483
00:26:29,420 --> 00:26:35,180
I think an appropriate place for anonymous surveys or anonymous reporting of that kind of thing,
484
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:35,500
Right?
485
00:26:35,510 --> 00:26:35,840
Um,
486
00:26:35,850 --> 00:26:37,080
uh,
487
00:26:37,090 --> 00:26:41,740
there are very good workplace conflict related reasons why you don't always want to,
488
00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:42,190
you know,
489
00:26:42,190 --> 00:26:46,880
to have your name attached to a particular bit of feedback.
490
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,230
But in general,
491
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,820
I'll often find myself signing my name on,
492
00:26:50,830 --> 00:26:58,010
on surveys where I don't have to do for precisely this reason because I think that is important to know if your name is attached.
493
00:26:58,010 --> 00:27:02,060
If somebody knows the department that it's coming from,
494
00:27:02,070 --> 00:27:02,340
right,
495
00:27:02,340 --> 00:27:06,000
They know how to interpret the kinds of things that you're saying.
496
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:06,810
So if you take,
497
00:27:06,810 --> 00:27:06,990
I mean,
498
00:27:06,990 --> 00:27:12,090
my department here long before I came has just got a really impressive history,
499
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:18,550
both at the university and across other similar universities of just some really top notch,
500
00:27:18,550 --> 00:27:21,490
both quality and quantity of research,
501
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:24,670
um my my colleagues uh right,
502
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,630
really good and and quite a lot of stuff.
503
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:37,180
Um and so if we talk about how increased work requirements are making it harder for faculty to engage in research,
504
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:49,260
I think it's important to know that that's coming from this department for the past 20 years has perhaps out published any other department of of similar size on campus or comparison institutions,
505
00:27:49,270 --> 00:27:49,640
right?
506
00:27:49,650 --> 00:27:52,980
Um rather than it's a department that,
507
00:27:53,690 --> 00:27:54,200
you know,
508
00:27:54,200 --> 00:28:00,130
just just isn't as involved in that type of past because maybe because they're involved in other sorts of things.
509
00:28:00,730 --> 00:28:11,860
And so while there is a place for anonymity anonymity makes it easier to discount and it makes it easier for people to,
510
00:28:11,870 --> 00:28:12,290
you know,
511
00:28:12,290 --> 00:28:15,870
to just go um sort of unhinged right?
512
00:28:16,130 --> 00:28:16,510
I mean,
513
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,830
you know what we see on the internet and almost every possible context.
514
00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:19,980
I mean,
515
00:28:19,980 --> 00:28:27,500
this is one of my frustrations with um uh course evaluations,
516
00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:29,180
the way that they are used on universities.
517
00:28:29,180 --> 00:28:29,330
I mean,
518
00:28:29,330 --> 00:28:29,570
there's,
519
00:28:29,580 --> 00:28:30,160
first off,
520
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:44,870
there's just a wide literature that suggests that they're biased in all sorts of problematic ways that universities that claim to be data driven then sort of find ways to ignore when we look at the data about bias and of course evaluations.
521
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:50,030
Um but there's also just sort of write this this kind of anonymity problem,
522
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:50,430
right?
523
00:28:50,430 --> 00:28:55,340
Where the kinds of comments that you're most likely to get are either the people that hated something,
524
00:28:55,350 --> 00:28:56,230
right?
525
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,860
Either because the class was at eight a.m. Or right,
526
00:28:59,860 --> 00:29:06,600
you're not the right looking faculty or they just hate the topic or the students that like would love anything that you do,
527
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:06,850
right?
528
00:29:06,850 --> 00:29:12,080
So you you get these very bimodal distributions even for the same course.
529
00:29:12,090 --> 00:29:24,270
Um And it's not clear that you know that all of those sets of feedback or all parts of that sets of feedback deserve to be taken seriously in the same way.
530
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:30,340
But since it's anonymous we can't sort of tease apart or wait some of it more than we could wait.
531
00:29:30,340 --> 00:29:30,920
Others.
532
00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:31,760
Yeah.
533
00:29:31,770 --> 00:29:32,310
Absolutely.
534
00:29:32,310 --> 00:29:39,610
The person who hardly ever showed up and is getting an F and they're disgruntled about it and the person who just,
535
00:29:39,610 --> 00:29:43,500
this is the third class I've had with you and they love you and Yes,
536
00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:48,180
I mean I've had many comments about liking the dresses that I wear.
537
00:29:48,180 --> 00:29:50,140
How does she teach in high heels?
538
00:29:50,150 --> 00:29:55,260
I got one evaluation for not liking my class because math was not their strong suit.
539
00:29:55,330 --> 00:29:57,550
I don't teach math,
540
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,550
I'm not sure how I got that evaluation.
541
00:29:59,550 --> 00:30:01,300
So don't even know what class they're in.
542
00:30:01,310 --> 00:30:01,800
That's it,
543
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,840
that's a whole topic.
544
00:30:03,850 --> 00:30:07,200
One thing I wonder about in academia is you know,
545
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:28,110
what would come to work life balance and the I think arcane system of how people are tenured and promoted uh which is shrouded in mystery and I think um different departments are better or worse at this but in clear and um clear and direct communication as to precisely what somebody needs to do to be a good colleague.
546
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,870
Do you have any advice for how we can in a way demystify?
547
00:30:33,150 --> 00:30:35,120
Um Now my listeners,
548
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:40,480
I'm talking to kevin Tempi who has published an arm and a leg and then some more,
549
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,730
I mean if you look at his cv it's incredibly robust and impressive.
550
00:30:44,740 --> 00:30:48,160
So kevin has no problem with input or output.
551
00:30:48,170 --> 00:30:58,650
Um but it's not the same of course for everybody so any any ideas about how to humanize the academic process.
552
00:30:58,660 --> 00:30:59,860
Yeah,
553
00:30:59,870 --> 00:31:09,000
I mean I'm thinking of when I came to Calvin um I had tenure at my previous university and so I had to give up tenure and came to Calvin.
554
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:16,670
So I came um as a a I think I was a full professor when I was hired,
555
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:31,480
I was hired into an endowed chair but I had to give up tenure and then sort of re earn tenure here at Calvin because Calvin just does not have a history of of sort of bringing in tenured folks from the outside and giving them tenure and and and I get why that is.
556
00:31:31,490 --> 00:31:37,600
Um and so even though all my colleagues again the ones that I trust the ones that I value that it's not gonna be a problem,
557
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:38,260
I mean the,
558
00:31:38,270 --> 00:31:38,470
you know,
559
00:31:38,470 --> 00:31:47,030
the process of tenure at most institutions including Calvin is if you apply for tenure and you aren't awarded it,
560
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,760
then you have a year to find another job because you're just gone.
561
00:31:51,770 --> 00:31:52,100
Right.
562
00:31:52,110 --> 00:31:54,060
So I mean it's a pretty high stakes decision.
563
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:59,200
And so when I came here I was shared a wonderful document,
564
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:00,680
I folded up here on my computer.
565
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:09,870
It's eight pages single spaced um on our departmental expectations regarding scholarship for tenure.
566
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:10,230
Right?
567
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:15,180
And and so um there university expectations in general.
568
00:32:15,190 --> 00:32:18,550
Um The expectations include scholarship,
569
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,340
teaching and service.
570
00:32:20,350 --> 00:32:22,750
My department cares about all three of those,
571
00:32:22,750 --> 00:32:26,620
but it's the the scholarly piece that's often the most unclear.
572
00:32:26,630 --> 00:32:38,860
And so one of my previous colleagues at the university wrote this wonderful eight page single spaced document of what the philosophy department expects for tenure.
573
00:32:39,090 --> 00:32:43,520
Uh And it includes um five different samples,
574
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:49,170
sets of publications and scholarly output that it deems would be sufficient.
575
00:32:49,180 --> 00:32:52,950
But my favorite line in this entire document.
576
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,460
Um and and it's written clearly by a philosopher.
577
00:32:56,820 --> 00:32:58,370
Uh it says,
578
00:32:58,380 --> 00:33:06,190
but even good policy cannot replace Cronus is the excellence of knowing what ought to be done,
579
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:06,460
right?
580
00:33:06,460 --> 00:33:07,340
So here's this,
581
00:33:07,350 --> 00:33:07,800
I don't,
582
00:33:07,810 --> 00:33:09,360
I haven't done a word count on it.
583
00:33:09,370 --> 00:33:10,380
2000,
584
00:33:10,390 --> 00:33:10,750
I don't know,
585
00:33:10,750 --> 00:33:14,770
1518 100 word document trying to be super clear.
586
00:33:14,780 --> 00:33:20,960
And and it just admits like you can't write a policy that's going to clearly lay out what it is.
587
00:33:20,970 --> 00:33:23,500
Um And so but I was given this the,
588
00:33:23,510 --> 00:33:23,950
you know,
589
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:25,060
my first week here.
590
00:33:25,060 --> 00:33:26,790
And so it was really helpful to me.
591
00:33:26,790 --> 00:33:27,020
Okay,
592
00:33:27,020 --> 00:33:35,660
So here are the expectations the department is going to make a judgment um even after I do all this stuff,
593
00:33:35,670 --> 00:33:39,470
but I knew the target was uh compare that with,
594
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:47,890
I'm actually doing a tenure evaluation at present for uh philosopher at another university.
595
00:33:48,550 --> 00:33:50,590
And the,
596
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:51,140
I can't remember,
597
00:33:51,140 --> 00:33:52,960
it's a dean or department chair,
598
00:33:52,970 --> 00:34:00,570
the administrator who sent me the request and I agreed to to do it with pointed out that at this particular university,
599
00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:08,280
promotion to associate professor and a wording of tenure while usually done at the same time,
600
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,300
are actually two different decisions.
601
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:11,450
Okay,
602
00:34:11,460 --> 00:34:12,680
That's helpful to know.
603
00:34:12,690 --> 00:34:20,590
So I asked what I thought was a pretty natural question when you're told that these two criteria come apart,
604
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:27,030
what's the difference in criteria for promotion to associates and for tenure?
605
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:27,830
Like,
606
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:28,580
Well,
607
00:34:28,580 --> 00:34:31,140
we don't really have anything set,
608
00:34:31,150 --> 00:34:34,010
like so that's not right.
609
00:34:34,010 --> 00:34:34,230
I mean,
610
00:34:34,230 --> 00:34:47,740
so clearly your university thinks that being awarded uh promotion to associate professor from assistant professor uh requires a different metric or bar than being awarded tenure.
611
00:34:48,740 --> 00:34:51,630
But if you can't tell me what the difference between the bars are.
612
00:34:51,630 --> 00:34:51,840
Like,
613
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:52,680
how I mean,
614
00:34:52,690 --> 00:34:54,440
if I don't know how to answer that,
615
00:34:54,450 --> 00:34:58,590
then think what the person who's actually applying for both of these at the same time is going,
616
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:04,450
so clarity of expectations given to folks up front.
617
00:35:04,460 --> 00:35:07,610
Um when we hired a junior colleague a few years ago,
618
00:35:07,610 --> 00:35:10,080
we made sure that even before they came,
619
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,000
I think before we offer them the job as part of the interview process,
620
00:35:14,570 --> 00:35:14,980
we said,
621
00:35:14,980 --> 00:35:16,630
here's this internal document,
622
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:17,280
you know,
623
00:35:17,290 --> 00:35:19,090
if you're the person that we offer the job to,
624
00:35:19,090 --> 00:35:19,910
if you take it,
625
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:20,820
if you come,
626
00:35:20,830 --> 00:35:23,330
um this is what we're going to expect from you.
627
00:35:23,330 --> 00:35:24,790
And they had that again,
628
00:35:24,790 --> 00:35:27,520
I think before they left campus from their interview,
629
00:35:27,530 --> 00:35:28,920
that's really helpful.
630
00:35:28,930 --> 00:35:37,190
Even if again that document can't capture all the nuances that that might go into having to make a particular decision,
631
00:35:38,020 --> 00:35:43,020
but that's that's so it's really important to mentor people,
632
00:35:43,030 --> 00:35:43,370
right?
633
00:35:43,380 --> 00:35:44,700
And so mentoring people,
634
00:35:44,710 --> 00:35:47,950
telling them when you can be specific and then also,
635
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,310
you know what's a judgment call,
636
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:54,000
but giving them examples of people who are successful people who are unsuccessful and why,
637
00:35:54,010 --> 00:35:56,770
But that is a process of mentoring and I would argue,
638
00:35:56,770 --> 00:35:57,030
you know,
639
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:58,180
every discipline,
640
00:35:58,190 --> 00:36:00,400
every institution,
641
00:36:00,410 --> 00:36:06,100
we all need mentors in order to develop and flourish and continue on our path professionally.
642
00:36:06,110 --> 00:36:11,230
And so I would love to see more mentoring uh certainly at universities,
643
00:36:11,230 --> 00:36:23,360
but in business in every way so that people can have different kinds of opportunities being able to see in different ways because they can have other people come alongside them and help them.
644
00:36:24,210 --> 00:36:24,800
So kevin,
645
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,410
you asked me to have,
646
00:36:26,410 --> 00:36:31,320
you mentioned the second um the second issue had.
647
00:36:32,810 --> 00:36:33,460
Yeah.
648
00:36:33,470 --> 00:36:36,770
Um so at one of my previous universities,
649
00:36:36,780 --> 00:36:37,160
um,
650
00:36:37,170 --> 00:36:43,320
I for a couple of years oversaw a first year experience program.
651
00:36:43,330 --> 00:36:45,700
And so all the incoming students,
652
00:36:45,710 --> 00:36:48,510
most of whom were first generation college students,
653
00:36:48,510 --> 00:36:48,670
right?
654
00:36:48,670 --> 00:36:55,470
So they didn't have the the privilege of having parents who had gone through a similar kind of experience.
655
00:36:55,480 --> 00:37:04,530
We had a course that all incoming first year students take to give them an introduction to what is expected of them at the university,
656
00:37:04,540 --> 00:37:06,020
but also,
657
00:37:06,030 --> 00:37:06,700
uh,
658
00:37:06,710 --> 00:37:08,840
to give them some uh,
659
00:37:08,850 --> 00:37:13,280
connections between their courses and somebody that they could uh,
660
00:37:13,290 --> 00:37:16,310
know that they could approach even if it wasn't in,
661
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:17,840
in their major field.
662
00:37:17,850 --> 00:37:19,790
And so we had to do a lot of coordinating.
663
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:25,400
And so I was asked to direct this program uh for a couple a couple of years.
664
00:37:25,410 --> 00:37:29,810
And and we uh revamped the entire program.
665
00:37:29,820 --> 00:37:30,920
Um and,
666
00:37:30,930 --> 00:37:31,230
you know,
667
00:37:31,230 --> 00:37:32,950
and the first year with a big revamping,
668
00:37:32,950 --> 00:37:33,100
I mean,
669
00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:33,660
there were some,
670
00:37:33,670 --> 00:37:34,700
there were some hiccups,
671
00:37:34,710 --> 00:37:35,200
you know,
672
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:35,620
there were,
673
00:37:35,630 --> 00:37:37,060
there were some difficulties,
674
00:37:37,070 --> 00:37:40,920
but at the end of the first semester,
675
00:37:40,930 --> 00:37:53,240
our provost had looked at uh sort of what the grade distribution was for this course that all incoming students took and thought that the grade distribution was inappropriate,
676
00:37:53,250 --> 00:37:53,610
uh,
677
00:37:53,620 --> 00:37:54,800
thought that there were,
678
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:55,730
had too many,
679
00:37:55,740 --> 00:37:57,700
not enough students got good grades.
680
00:37:57,700 --> 00:37:59,290
They were worried about retention.
681
00:37:59,300 --> 00:38:02,010
They actually told us that they were in part worried about retention.
682
00:38:02,540 --> 00:38:04,220
And so the,
683
00:38:04,230 --> 00:38:22,340
the provost sat down with the list of students and their grades and just without looking at a single assignment that any of those students had done had changed the grades that something like 20% of the students received for the course.
684
00:38:22,340 --> 00:38:22,920
And I thought,
685
00:38:22,930 --> 00:38:23,190
you know,
686
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:31,760
every assignment was graded by the faculty that wrote the assignment and that directed that particular bit of content.
687
00:38:31,770 --> 00:38:37,560
The students had six different faculty at least as they went through from different disciplines that,
688
00:38:37,570 --> 00:38:37,930
you know,
689
00:38:37,930 --> 00:38:39,180
we're drawing on.
690
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:39,950
And,
691
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:40,960
and,
692
00:38:40,970 --> 00:38:50,850
and so for an administrator to think that concerns about low grades affecting enrollment mattered more,
693
00:38:50,860 --> 00:38:59,770
then trusting faculty for how they did their job was the most single most demoralizing day I had ever had in now,
694
00:38:59,770 --> 00:39:01,740
almost 20 years of,
695
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:03,160
of,
696
00:39:03,170 --> 00:39:03,940
uh,
697
00:39:03,950 --> 00:39:06,440
directing being an academic.
698
00:39:06,450 --> 00:39:09,260
And it was just so bad that I just said,
699
00:39:09,270 --> 00:39:10,230
you know,
700
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:10,960
um,
701
00:39:10,970 --> 00:39:14,490
I think I had agreed to do like a two year experience of directing this program.
702
00:39:14,490 --> 00:39:15,040
I just said when,
703
00:39:15,050 --> 00:39:16,770
when the time I've agreed to has done,
704
00:39:16,770 --> 00:39:17,720
I went out right.
705
00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:20,010
Like here's a program that I spent all this.
706
00:39:20,010 --> 00:39:28,390
And if you value what the faculty that have taught in the program and their evaluation of the students on their own content.
707
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:35,880
So little that you can just overwrite grades without looking at what the assignments are,
708
00:39:35,890 --> 00:39:38,460
then I just want to be a part of it.
709
00:39:38,470 --> 00:39:38,620
And,
710
00:39:38,620 --> 00:39:38,780
and,
711
00:39:38,780 --> 00:39:38,940
and,
712
00:39:38,940 --> 00:39:39,480
and so that,
713
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:39,670
I mean,
714
00:39:39,670 --> 00:39:44,260
I get that universities need to look at great distributions.
715
00:39:44,270 --> 00:39:50,160
I get that we need to care about students who come for a semester coming back for other semesters,
716
00:39:50,170 --> 00:39:56,940
but the way to do too Can be concerned about those kinds of things is not simply,
717
00:39:56,950 --> 00:39:59,200
it's just about the numbers at the end.
718
00:39:59,210 --> 00:39:59,730
Um,
719
00:39:59,740 --> 00:40:00,060
and,
720
00:40:00,070 --> 00:40:04,580
and then to unilaterally re assign grades to hundreds of students.
721
00:40:04,590 --> 00:40:10,770
So that was the single worst experience I've had in at least 18 years as an academic.
722
00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:12,500
Knowing what,
723
00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:12,760
you know,
724
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:13,480
now,
725
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,830
would you have responded to that situation differently?
726
00:40:17,990 --> 00:40:19,840
I don't know that.
727
00:40:19,850 --> 00:40:21,990
I would um,
728
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:22,630
I mean,
729
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,250
when it was first expressed to me,
730
00:40:24,250 --> 00:40:24,970
it was,
731
00:40:24,980 --> 00:40:25,260
you know,
732
00:40:25,260 --> 00:40:26,310
I was angry,
733
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,560
I was very frustrated.
734
00:40:28,570 --> 00:40:37,040
I got all the faculty that taught in that program to sign off on a letter saying why they thought this was inappropriate,
735
00:40:37,050 --> 00:40:46,130
um why they thought it betrayed academic trust and and their expertise and gave it to the administration and the,
736
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:47,710
if they read it,
737
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:50,840
they didn't recall or maybe they reconsidered,
738
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,480
they didn't change the decision in my life.
739
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,600
And there's nothing that I could do.
740
00:40:54,610 --> 00:41:00,330
Um and so I don't think that I could know that this was going to be the experience before agreeing to be part of the program.
741
00:41:00,340 --> 00:41:00,590
I mean,
742
00:41:00,590 --> 00:41:03,010
knowing now maybe I would just say no,
743
00:41:03,020 --> 00:41:05,720
I'm not going to be involved in that program altogether.
744
00:41:05,730 --> 00:41:06,130
But I mean,
745
00:41:06,130 --> 00:41:08,320
I think that the response really was appropriate.
746
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,370
It was it was to to push back.
747
00:41:10,380 --> 00:41:11,080
Um,
748
00:41:11,090 --> 00:41:14,080
and I think that expressing,
749
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:19,830
expressing even anger and frustration in the workplace is often appropriate,
750
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,340
even if it doesn't get certain kinds of,
751
00:41:22,350 --> 00:41:24,170
of changes made.
752
00:41:24,180 --> 00:41:24,400
I mean,
753
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,890
ideally if the anger is appropriate,
754
00:41:26,890 --> 00:41:28,150
it will lead to changes.
755
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:32,560
It's the motivational role that I think anger can play.
756
00:41:33,130 --> 00:41:33,700
Um,
757
00:41:33,710 --> 00:41:36,660
but there's just sort of an expressive force sometimes,
758
00:41:36,670 --> 00:41:40,400
even if we can't fix larger social systems,
759
00:41:40,410 --> 00:41:42,150
uh,
760
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,800
problematic structures,
761
00:41:43,810 --> 00:41:46,730
policy or other people's decisions.
762
00:41:46,740 --> 00:41:46,980
I mean,
763
00:41:46,980 --> 00:41:47,410
just,
764
00:41:47,420 --> 00:41:48,200
you know,
765
00:41:48,210 --> 00:41:54,340
some decisions call for public group expressions,
766
00:41:54,340 --> 00:41:55,990
personal expressions of anger.
767
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:56,820
Um,
768
00:41:56,830 --> 00:41:59,900
and and so I don't,
769
00:41:59,910 --> 00:42:03,830
it was the kind of situation I couldn't have brought up about a different outcome.
770
00:42:04,370 --> 00:42:05,210
Um,
771
00:42:05,220 --> 00:42:06,140
I think that,
772
00:42:06,140 --> 00:42:06,880
I mean,
773
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,350
I pushed as hard as I could to have the better decisions made.
774
00:42:12,380 --> 00:42:14,180
I didn't have a say over that.
775
00:42:14,190 --> 00:42:20,500
Um So I I honestly don't know there are other times in my career that I've gotten too frustrated or expressed,
776
00:42:20,510 --> 00:42:22,890
expressed myself in problematic ways.
777
00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:25,000
It's not clear to me that this is one of those.
778
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:31,940
So I don't know what I should have done any differently or could have done to have a better outcome.
779
00:42:32,380 --> 00:42:35,370
It seems like that could have should have of course,
780
00:42:35,380 --> 00:42:37,340
who would have thought that that would happen.
781
00:42:37,340 --> 00:42:37,640
I mean,
782
00:42:37,650 --> 00:42:39,230
that's pretty crazy in academia.
783
00:42:39,230 --> 00:42:41,430
That kind of stuff doesn't usually happen,
784
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:46,090
but it seems like as we were talking about the very beginning of the show about shared governance,
785
00:42:46,100 --> 00:42:47,700
like what does that really look like?
786
00:42:47,710 --> 00:42:49,120
When are the stakes low?
787
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:49,810
And it's just,
788
00:42:49,820 --> 00:42:50,280
you know,
789
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,570
it's unnecessary to involve the faculty and one of the stakes high.
790
00:42:53,580 --> 00:42:55,980
And clearly this was an overstepping,
791
00:42:55,990 --> 00:42:56,290
you know,
792
00:42:56,290 --> 00:43:04,460
I think having clear and direct communication about real concerns as you said about attention and great distribution and you know,
793
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:08,620
having faculty have real concerns about integrity,
794
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:09,710
honesty,
795
00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:10,300
freedom,
796
00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:10,830
you know,
797
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:16,500
and these things while they're good to have this tension like this kind of conflict can lead to real,
798
00:43:16,510 --> 00:43:18,570
a really excellent institution,
799
00:43:18,580 --> 00:43:23,560
but it has to be managed and it has to be managed well or you have us versus them,
800
00:43:23,570 --> 00:43:27,960
which is good for nobody and certainly the students and the community lose,
801
00:43:27,970 --> 00:43:29,090
it's not good for them.
802
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:29,860
Yeah.
803
00:43:29,870 --> 00:43:31,330
And and this university,
804
00:43:31,330 --> 00:43:33,740
I mean this conflict is primarily with the provost,
805
00:43:33,750 --> 00:43:44,790
but it had a president who had a similar top down leadership style um when we pushed him that technically none of our documents talked about shared governance.
806
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,590
Um they were administrative governance with faculty input,
807
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:48,810
you know,
808
00:43:48,810 --> 00:43:50,310
like once they admitted like,
809
00:43:50,310 --> 00:43:50,650
okay,
810
00:43:50,650 --> 00:43:51,020
again,
811
00:43:51,020 --> 00:43:51,240
you know,
812
00:43:51,250 --> 00:43:53,400
now we know where we stand,
813
00:43:53,410 --> 00:43:57,710
but it was not a particularly healthy place.
814
00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:11,820
Um there have been numerous faculty that had left um to go to other institutions and had signed nondisclosure agreements as part of their departure and when you find out that there's,
815
00:44:11,830 --> 00:44:12,090
you know,
816
00:44:12,090 --> 00:44:14,960
a history uh at small universities,
817
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:16,730
it's not as if their faculty are,
818
00:44:16,740 --> 00:44:16,970
you know,
819
00:44:16,980 --> 00:44:17,530
huge,
820
00:44:17,530 --> 00:44:22,510
but when you've got something like a 20% turnover of faculty in five years,
821
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:23,210
uh,
822
00:44:23,210 --> 00:44:24,550
and every year,
823
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:24,760
you know,
824
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:25,260
on average,
825
00:44:25,260 --> 00:44:30,980
you've got at least one faculty who's signing a nondisclosure agreement as part of their departure,
826
00:44:31,070 --> 00:44:38,960
then maybe those are pretty good indicators that it's not a particularly healthy dynamic of a workplace and and that one wasn't at all.
827
00:44:38,970 --> 00:44:39,830
Yeah,
828
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:40,840
I'm sorry about that.
829
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:42,170
It sounds very frustrating.
830
00:44:42,180 --> 00:44:44,660
You'll notice that I'm no longer at that institute.
831
00:44:44,670 --> 00:44:45,570
That's right.
832
00:44:45,570 --> 00:44:46,320
And that's good.
833
00:44:46,330 --> 00:44:49,800
And I hope all our listeners know that if you find yourself in a toxic work environment,
834
00:44:49,810 --> 00:44:51,090
you do not have to stay.
835
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,210
And I'm very sensitive to telling people,
836
00:44:54,210 --> 00:44:56,790
they can just move on as if it's that easy.
837
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:05,970
But I think the pandemic has shown us that there are a variety of different possibilities and so encourage you if you're in a toxic work environment,
838
00:45:05,980 --> 00:45:07,660
that there's stuff that you can do,
839
00:45:07,670 --> 00:45:07,840
that.
840
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:12,570
There is hope out there to come back when I was a church custodian,
841
00:45:12,580 --> 00:45:13,030
right?
842
00:45:13,030 --> 00:45:14,950
I wasn't the only church custodian,
843
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,160
I was one of a number.
844
00:45:16,170 --> 00:45:17,360
And this was,
845
00:45:17,370 --> 00:45:17,720
you know,
846
00:45:17,720 --> 00:45:18,630
when I was in,
847
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,110
in getting my master's,
848
00:45:20,110 --> 00:45:23,930
my spouse and I didn't have any Children at the time and some of the other custodians did.
849
00:45:23,940 --> 00:45:26,200
And so I remember on certain Sundays,
850
00:45:26,210 --> 00:45:26,570
um,
851
00:45:26,580 --> 00:45:27,050
you know,
852
00:45:27,050 --> 00:45:32,610
like somebody forgot to schedule the fellowship hall for a potluck or,
853
00:45:32,620 --> 00:45:32,830
you know,
854
00:45:32,830 --> 00:45:36,480
there was something that needed to be set up and the way that we sort of divvied up the churches,
855
00:45:36,490 --> 00:45:43,440
you know that I was responsible for a certain part of the church and somebody else was responsible for a different part of the church,
856
00:45:43,450 --> 00:45:46,810
which we all had our own division of responsibilities in labor,
857
00:45:47,170 --> 00:45:56,220
but because the other person person had Children and I didn't sort of like the last minute request that we didn't think to tell you this needed to,
858
00:45:56,230 --> 00:45:56,620
you know,
859
00:45:56,630 --> 00:45:57,890
sort of all fell to me.
860
00:45:57,900 --> 00:46:08,300
And I remember that there was just one saturday or sunday um that I just felt like the time that I had been spending there was um not being respected.
861
00:46:08,300 --> 00:46:16,660
So I went in the next day and I turned in my two week notice and I remember the um one of the staff members there was just like,
862
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,070
but we need you you can't do that.
863
00:46:19,170 --> 00:46:20,680
And and this really puzzled me,
864
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:21,390
I was like,
865
00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:24,560
this is sort of a joint agreement,
866
00:46:24,570 --> 00:46:24,950
right?
867
00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:33,390
You agree the church agrees to do to pay me this much and in exchange for the amount of work and it's no longer worth it to me,
868
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:33,850
right?
869
00:46:33,850 --> 00:46:36,880
Just the paycheck was not worth the frustrations.
870
00:46:36,890 --> 00:46:39,460
Um and and so yeah,
871
00:46:39,460 --> 00:46:40,730
I can do this right,
872
00:46:40,740 --> 00:46:48,020
if if you're gonna think of this as a certain kind of exchange of value and it becomes no longer worth it then,
873
00:46:48,770 --> 00:46:49,490
even though,
874
00:46:49,490 --> 00:46:49,730
you know,
875
00:46:49,730 --> 00:46:51,310
I didn't have another job at the time.
876
00:46:51,310 --> 00:46:53,450
And now there are other times in my life,
877
00:46:53,460 --> 00:46:53,710
you know,
878
00:46:53,710 --> 00:46:56,210
making this sort of move would have been way harder.
879
00:46:56,210 --> 00:47:03,190
Getting a new academic job is way more difficult than finding a new church to be a custodian at or something like that.
880
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:03,890
Um,
881
00:47:03,900 --> 00:47:05,800
but it just wasn't worth it.
882
00:47:05,810 --> 00:47:06,440
So,
883
00:47:06,450 --> 00:47:06,700
you know,
884
00:47:06,700 --> 00:47:07,070
this is,
885
00:47:07,070 --> 00:47:08,960
I think an indication of the kind of thing,
886
00:47:08,970 --> 00:47:09,300
right?
887
00:47:09,310 --> 00:47:16,310
Like it's not worth being in a job if you can avoid it where you're going to be mistreated as an employee.
888
00:47:18,300 --> 00:47:18,570
Well,
889
00:47:18,570 --> 00:47:18,860
kevin,
890
00:47:18,860 --> 00:47:20,330
our time is drawing to an end,
891
00:47:20,330 --> 00:47:23,520
but I would like to hear about your advocacy work.
892
00:47:23,530 --> 00:47:36,240
And if you could just briefly tell us about your advocacy work and what is your vision for healthy work environments that are inclusive for people who have different challenges.
893
00:47:36,250 --> 00:47:42,900
So when our oldest child was uh in first grade,
894
00:47:42,910 --> 00:47:43,640
uh,
895
00:47:43,650 --> 00:47:45,070
he's multiply disabled.
896
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:45,290
Um,
897
00:47:45,290 --> 00:47:50,400
and we realized that the public school where he was getting his education,
898
00:47:50,410 --> 00:47:55,830
we came to discover that they had been violating state and federal law for about a year and a half.
899
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:56,260
Um,
900
00:47:56,270 --> 00:47:57,540
and I'm an academic right?
901
00:47:57,550 --> 00:47:59,990
It's not like there's a lot of things that I don't know how to do,
902
00:48:00,300 --> 00:48:02,810
but I know how to read stuff and I know how to argue.
903
00:48:02,810 --> 00:48:17,090
So we downloaded the state special education manual and we started arguing and it turns out that the kinds of skills that make a good philosopher are largely the same set of skills that can help you push back on schools when they're not following state and federal law.
904
00:48:17,100 --> 00:48:20,540
So first we started doing this for our son and then his friends,
905
00:48:20,550 --> 00:48:25,610
and now I've just come to realize that this is sort of a huge problem.
906
00:48:25,610 --> 00:48:30,450
I've been in dozens of different schools and multiple school districts,
907
00:48:30,460 --> 00:48:33,070
and by the time I get in again,
908
00:48:33,070 --> 00:48:34,600
there's a self selection effect here.
909
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:39,420
But by the time I'm approached by a family to try to help advocate for their child,
910
00:48:39,430 --> 00:48:47,770
I've never worked with a family that I haven't been able to get more services or more support for the child in the public school.
911
00:48:47,780 --> 00:48:48,030
And,
912
00:48:48,030 --> 00:48:52,730
and so I just go with the families and work with them in preparation for their I.
913
00:48:52,730 --> 00:48:52,940
E.
914
00:48:52,940 --> 00:48:53,150
P.
915
00:48:53,150 --> 00:48:59,790
Meetings to try to make sure that the school is doing what is in the best interest and what the law requires of of their Children.
916
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:01,600
I've also found out that,
917
00:49:01,610 --> 00:49:01,880
um,
918
00:49:01,890 --> 00:49:07,940
there's just a lot of businesses that don't really care what the americans with disabilities act says,
919
00:49:07,950 --> 00:49:09,740
or they don't know what it says.
920
00:49:09,740 --> 00:49:10,000
So,
921
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:10,280
you know,
922
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:10,790
sort of,
923
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,060
most of my advocacy work is in a public school setting,
924
00:49:14,060 --> 00:49:19,160
but some of it is also so just local businesses that think that they don't need to follow.
925
00:49:19,170 --> 00:49:19,660
Again,
926
00:49:19,670 --> 00:49:21,610
32 year old federal law.
927
00:49:21,620 --> 00:49:21,810
Um,
928
00:49:21,810 --> 00:49:23,820
and so the advocacy work is usually just,
929
00:49:23,830 --> 00:49:24,370
um,
930
00:49:24,380 --> 00:49:31,840
letting people know that I'm aware that they're violating what the law requires and pointing out to them,
931
00:49:31,850 --> 00:49:38,340
I know who in the relevant state or federal government to report these violations to write for violation of the A.
932
00:49:38,340 --> 00:49:38,580
D.
933
00:49:38,580 --> 00:49:38,790
A.
934
00:49:38,790 --> 00:49:43,680
You report to the Office of Civil Rights in the Department of Justice.
935
00:49:43,690 --> 00:49:50,040
And so when I tell people that I know how to file a federal Department of Justice complaint because their parking lot is A.
936
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:50,190
B.
937
00:49:50,190 --> 00:49:50,290
A.
938
00:49:50,290 --> 00:49:51,020
Compliant,
939
00:49:51,020 --> 00:49:51,980
then suddenly they,
940
00:49:51,990 --> 00:49:52,340
you know,
941
00:49:52,350 --> 00:49:54,570
like oh please tell me what the requirements are,
942
00:49:54,570 --> 00:49:55,950
A proper parking lot.
943
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:57,900
And so that's in a nutshell,
944
00:49:57,900 --> 00:49:59,590
the kind of advocacy work that I do.
945
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:01,800
The second part of your question,
946
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,260
I think was some of the conflicts.
947
00:50:04,270 --> 00:50:04,650
Well,
948
00:50:04,650 --> 00:50:17,660
so like what do you think about Jamison and you think about Jamison and maybe some of the other students do come in contact with and you think about when they go off to work or the kind of work um that might be suited for all different kinds of individuals.
949
00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:22,790
How do we bring about work environments that are inclusive?
950
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:27,270
That welcome a wide variety of the human experience.
951
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:27,970
So again,
952
00:50:27,970 --> 00:50:34,480
the bare minimum of this should be not violating 32 year old civil rights legislation.
953
00:50:34,490 --> 00:50:35,990
Of right of the A.
954
00:50:35,990 --> 00:50:36,180
D.
955
00:50:36,180 --> 00:50:36,420
A.
956
00:50:36,430 --> 00:50:42,960
Um And so at a very minimum the physical geography of workplaces needs to be a D.
957
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:43,040
A.
958
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:43,910
Accessible,
959
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,670
not just for customers but for employees.
960
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:49,470
They're part of the A.
961
00:50:49,470 --> 00:50:49,680
D.
962
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:49,970
A.
963
00:50:49,970 --> 00:50:54,080
Is about getting reasonable accommodations in the workplace.
964
00:50:54,090 --> 00:50:59,330
Um And so if somebody has a history of back pain or lower back illness,
965
00:50:59,340 --> 00:50:59,780
you know,
966
00:50:59,790 --> 00:51:01,700
um injury,
967
00:51:01,710 --> 00:51:02,200
you know,
968
00:51:02,210 --> 00:51:04,970
get them a standing desk if that's going to be beneficial.
969
00:51:04,970 --> 00:51:06,280
Or let somebody wear noise,
970
00:51:06,290 --> 00:51:13,420
canceling headphones so they're not easily distracted or bothered by the sounds if they're working in a cubicle farm or something like that.
971
00:51:13,420 --> 00:51:13,560
Right?
972
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,460
So bare minimums.
973
00:51:15,470 --> 00:51:19,750
People should be following federal anti discrimination law.
974
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,540
And and it's it's funny to have to say that,
975
00:51:22,550 --> 00:51:32,490
but it really needs to be said because lots of places don't know what's required or they make getting those kinds of accommodations really really difficult.
976
00:51:33,230 --> 00:51:34,960
Um but beyond that,
977
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:35,200
I mean,
978
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:50,760
taking an active role in figuring out how we can uh increase the diversity of the kinds of positions we have at an institution to make it more likely that we can employ a wide range of folks.
979
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:51,070
Right?
980
00:51:51,080 --> 00:52:00,590
So for for at least 10 years a lot of autistic adults that work in various places have asked for remote work accommodations.
981
00:52:01,130 --> 00:52:04,340
And prior to 2020,
982
00:52:04,350 --> 00:52:07,100
lots and lots of work places have,
983
00:52:07,110 --> 00:52:07,540
you know,
984
00:52:07,550 --> 00:52:09,820
like we can't have remote work options.
985
00:52:09,820 --> 00:52:11,680
It'll destroy work culture,
986
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:12,070
it'll be,
987
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:12,630
you know,
988
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,100
and then the pandemic hits.
989
00:52:14,100 --> 00:52:22,360
And what do you know like we really can have um remote work options that end up being good for lots of folks,
990
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:26,460
not just for um people who are autistic.
991
00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:35,770
I've got a friend in another state that works at a public university and as part of that universities response to the pandemic,
992
00:52:35,780 --> 00:52:35,950
you know,
993
00:52:35,950 --> 00:52:39,440
everybody was working remote for a year and a half or so.
994
00:52:39,450 --> 00:52:46,770
Then they decided to make it possible that anybody could opt into a remote work.
995
00:52:46,780 --> 00:52:47,370
Uh you know,
996
00:52:47,370 --> 00:52:52,090
and assuming that the kind of position that they had was conducive to remote work,
997
00:52:52,100 --> 00:53:12,980
they could opt into with just a mere request uh remote work arrangements unless you were requesting the remote work option because it was related to a disability at which point there was a ton of paperwork and a lot of hesitancy to grant that sort of,
998
00:53:12,990 --> 00:53:13,640
right?
999
00:53:13,650 --> 00:53:19,390
So here this friend of mine wasn't aware of the situation at first.
1000
00:53:19,390 --> 00:53:27,080
And and then they put in to have a remote work request related to their documented disability.
1001
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:35,010
And they started getting all sorts of pushback from the university when if they had just filled out the same form and just said,
1002
00:53:35,010 --> 00:53:40,420
I want I want to work remote because I want to wear sweatpants or I don't want to drive my car,
1003
00:53:40,430 --> 00:53:40,650
right?
1004
00:53:40,650 --> 00:53:41,460
They would have been granted.
1005
00:53:41,470 --> 00:53:47,780
And and so I think that workplaces don't realize how many of the procedures they,
1006
00:53:47,790 --> 00:53:54,260
that they have in being super disadvantages to people with disabilities.
1007
00:53:54,270 --> 00:54:00,060
Um when in fact they're often already disadvantaged by the way that society respond,
1008
00:54:00,060 --> 00:54:00,240
right?
1009
00:54:00,240 --> 00:54:10,980
And so here we're just putting an extra burden onto folks that already have something harder because of the way that our general culture treats this.
1010
00:54:11,850 --> 00:54:12,340
Yeah,
1011
00:54:12,350 --> 00:54:14,760
I mean I think when you talk about the bare minimum,
1012
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:14,980
right?
1013
00:54:14,990 --> 00:54:22,310
Like absolutely we need people to bare minimum have access and reasonable accommodation.
1014
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,300
But when I think about the future of work,
1015
00:54:24,300 --> 00:54:28,730
I think about people centric and if that's how you change your focus,
1016
00:54:28,740 --> 00:54:30,430
it's away from the bare minimum,
1017
00:54:30,430 --> 00:54:31,790
which of course has to be met,
1018
00:54:31,790 --> 00:54:33,230
but it's more than that.
1019
00:54:33,510 --> 00:54:38,300
Um We don't want to just treat people with dignity and respect that's bare minimum,
1020
00:54:38,310 --> 00:54:38,560
right?
1021
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:46,380
We want people to flourish and that means all people and I wonder when we actually encourage people to flourish,
1022
00:54:46,390 --> 00:54:48,130
all people,
1023
00:54:48,140 --> 00:54:50,760
it's better for it's better for the bottom line,
1024
00:54:50,940 --> 00:54:53,690
it's better for um turnover,
1025
00:54:53,690 --> 00:54:55,440
it's better for engagement.
1026
00:54:55,450 --> 00:54:57,730
That means it's better you have better products,
1027
00:54:57,730 --> 00:54:58,910
better service.
1028
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,360
Not only is it the right thing to do there,
1029
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:06,600
all all these financial incentives and so I wonder if when we think about,
1030
00:55:06,610 --> 00:55:07,080
you know,
1031
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:11,680
when we really think about making a workplace accommodating,
1032
00:55:11,690 --> 00:55:14,880
it's not that oh we have to do this for you,
1033
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:20,400
but how we get to be creative and work together for everybody.
1034
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:21,630
Yeah.
1035
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:25,660
Um There have been a number of companies that have implemented this.
1036
00:55:25,670 --> 00:55:34,450
So a number of years ago CVS one of their warehouse administrators and probably not the actual job title,
1037
00:55:34,460 --> 00:55:40,320
but people that oversaw one of the warehouses where CVS distributes their various goods to their stores.
1038
00:55:40,330 --> 00:55:40,840
Uh,
1039
00:55:40,850 --> 00:55:41,190
this,
1040
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:47,440
The administrator had had an autistic child and they were worried about sort of what that person's employment options.
1041
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,880
We're going to be once they hit 18 or left college,
1042
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,130
we're not in the workforce.
1043
00:55:52,140 --> 00:56:02,960
And so began a process of trying to make this one particular CVS distribution center to be diversity folk And good for,
1044
00:56:02,970 --> 00:56:03,660
uh,
1045
00:56:03,670 --> 00:56:04,620
not just autistics,
1046
00:56:04,620 --> 00:56:06,440
but a range of disabled folks.
1047
00:56:06,450 --> 00:56:07,330
And what do you know,
1048
00:56:07,330 --> 00:56:10,950
it became like the best performing of the distribution centers.
1049
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:11,130
Right?
1050
00:56:11,130 --> 00:56:13,910
And so then they outsourced it to all the others.
1051
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:14,810
They ended up playing,
1052
00:56:14,820 --> 00:56:15,330
uh,
1053
00:56:15,340 --> 00:56:16,480
at one point,
1054
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:17,960
I don't know if this is still the case.
1055
00:56:17,970 --> 00:56:18,280
Um,
1056
00:56:18,290 --> 00:56:22,580
at one point over 20% of that particular uh,
1057
00:56:22,590 --> 00:56:25,920
distribution centers workforce was was disabled,
1058
00:56:25,930 --> 00:56:30,940
but it also had the highest sort of like employment satisfaction,
1059
00:56:30,940 --> 00:56:32,740
scores of anybody that,
1060
00:56:32,740 --> 00:56:32,900
right?
1061
00:56:32,900 --> 00:56:34,420
So this is uh,
1062
00:56:34,430 --> 00:56:36,790
an instance of what you're talking about.
1063
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,420
We often think that making uh,
1064
00:56:39,430 --> 00:56:46,480
work more accessible to a wider range of folks is just going to benefit those particular individuals,
1065
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,200
but it ends up changing the culture.
1066
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,480
It ends up making uh,
1067
00:56:50,490 --> 00:56:52,970
it better for lots of folks in lots of ways.
1068
00:56:52,980 --> 00:56:53,750
Yeah,
1069
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:54,920
absolutely.
1070
00:56:55,060 --> 00:56:59,760
That's a great example of what it looks like when we do the right thing,
1071
00:56:59,770 --> 00:57:01,130
when we care about our neighbor,
1072
00:57:01,130 --> 00:57:01,930
care about ourselves,
1073
00:57:01,930 --> 00:57:06,360
our neighbor who would have thought that actually we actually help benefit.
1074
00:57:06,370 --> 00:57:06,740
Well,
1075
00:57:06,740 --> 00:57:07,070
kevin,
1076
00:57:07,070 --> 00:57:09,010
thank you so much for your time today.
1077
00:57:09,010 --> 00:57:10,340
I really appreciate it.
1078
00:57:10,350 --> 00:57:11,760
You're very welcome Merry,
1079
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,150
Thanks again for having me take care.
1080
00:57:15,430 --> 00:57:17,270
Thank you for listening to Conflict Managed.
1081
00:57:17,270 --> 00:57:19,400
I hope you enjoyed our show today.
1082
00:57:19,420 --> 00:57:25,710
If you have any comments or questions or if there's a particular person you would like to see interviewed on Conflict Managed,
1083
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:30,520
please contact us at the number 3P.
1084
00:57:30,550 --> 00:57:34,270
ConflictRestoration@gmail.com.
1085
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:36,040
I'm your host,
1086
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:36,830
Merry Brown.
1087
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:42,970
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services.
1088
00:57:43,380 --> 00:57:46,590
You can find them online at
1089
00:57:46,870 --> 00:57:49,540
3PConflictRestoration.com.
1090
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,700
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1091
00:57:53,590 --> 00:57:54,800
If you haven't done so yet.
1092
00:57:54,810 --> 00:57:57,260
Please like and subscribe to this podcast.
1093
00:57:57,260 --> 00:58:03,020
It really helps us out. And remember, conflict is normal and to be expected,
1094
00:58:03,770 --> 00:58:05,690
let's deal with it. Until next time.
1095
00:58:06,100 --> 00:58:06,730
Take care.