Episode 302: Phil Rosenberg of ICD Group

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Cliff Snows. Cliff Snows, good to be here, Good to
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be here.
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It's always nice to be with an old friend.
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Yeah, Phil, it's great to have you on cliffs Notes.
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One of the things we like to hit on is
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something of note, and we were touching on the fact
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that your son is now in the scrap industry. That's
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a really cool story. Tell me about that. That is
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six Roses thing again and how that all came about.
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Well, it's a wonderful thing.
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I mean, I my son, Jason, about a year and
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a half ago, came and approached and said, I think
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I'd like to get in the scrap business, Dad, And
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I said, that's that's wonderful and very you know, he
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has an NBA, he has a law degree, worked in consulting,
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he'd worked and bringing a company public startup company, so
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it lot of experience. But he said, I think I
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want to come in this scrap business. I said, okay,
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you know what, are you going to start from the
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bottom and we're going to get it in through. And
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we were all together about a year ago for my
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father's ninetieth birthday in Chicago, and Jason turns to the
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whole family and makes the announcement that he's joining the
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scrap industry, and in conjunction with it, for business reasons
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and tax reasons, he needed to set up a LLC,
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you know, for the funding, I guess. And he sets
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up the LC and he says, we said, oh, what's
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the name.
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He says, six Roses. Six Roses, not Jason's a I know,
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four roses. That's a bourbon I like to do.
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There, you go for it, and I'm thinking, and I'm
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thinking roses, you know, with my background in Jason's background
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of liking The Grateful Dead or Fish or these bands,
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and you see roses in the in the symbols that
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they use. So I said, oh, this is about that.
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He goes, no dead, he goes, this is because I'm
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going to be the sixth Rosenberg in the scrap is
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oh wow. And to then look across the room again
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it's my father's ninetieth birthday and see the tears coming
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down his eyes.
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Yeah.
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And then to have my wife elbow me because she
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sees me choking up. You know, it was a very
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special moment.
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Yeah.
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And you know, I think that there's a lot of
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these you know, you yourself, you know, we're in family business,
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the history of our industry, and I'm probably love the
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history of our industry. It's a lot of family businesses. Yeah,
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and to see you know, that continue with my family
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is you know, fantastic. But it's also him choosing to
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do that, sure, and I think that's also the nice
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thing that I see in this industry. And just here
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we're at the you know, REMA convention and I'm walking
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the halls and I'm you know, Joe senior citizen at
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sixty five years old being here, you know, being at
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these conventions for probably fifty years, you know, and going
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through But seeing these young kids, even your age guys,
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and I'm not you know, saying, you know, that made
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the choice and are doing this out of choice, not
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when you know, when my father came into our family's business,
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he had no choice. My grandfather said, you get out
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of college, you're going to business. You know, you're going
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to work for us right now, you know. But that
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our generation, you know, your generation, Jason's generation, I think,
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has had more opportunities in other areas, and even the
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family kind of promoted those opportunities and weren't forcing upon
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but to see them want to be there and they
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want to be there because they've also seen what their
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father or grandfather have done.
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Now, the family business that you're referring to, did your
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that would have been your grandfather that started that.
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No, I would be the fifth generations. Okay, So I
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don't know how many greats. I don't know how many
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greats we're talking. But when when Rachmeel Rosenberg came in
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the late eighteen hundreds, wow, from Eastern Europe to America
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with you know, nothing but his clothes on his back,
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and they came in and they started with what was
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the rags business. So they were recycling, you know, they
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you were taking old dresses and old clothes and cutting
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them up and making them into rags and then selling
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rags to you know, the restaurant industry.
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Or other people.
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Know. The were they based in Chicago or were based
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in Chicago. That's where you know, they didn't go through
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Ellis Island. They came through you know, Chicago, and they
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got to Chicago and they started the rags business. And
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the rags business turned into maybe some tin can recycling
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and other things because they were just go getters, you know,
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and looking for ways to feed their family, and you know, today,
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you know, we can we can proudly use the term recycling. Sure,
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figure it all out as we're green and we're great
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for the environment. Back in those days, it was a
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necessity to survive. How do we make something? So we
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took somebody else's garbage and made it into money and
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was able to grow and consequently over time the business.
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You know then you know, from from Rockmeal to Michael
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Rosenberg and then he grew the business and and and
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started at that time they started automotive recycling.
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You know, the cars come in.
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I mean, you know we are talking, you know, at
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this stage of the game, still over one hundred years ago,
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and you know, metals recycling grew and it grew, and
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next thing you know, you had power companies and you know,
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popping up in Chicago and all over America and ended
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up you know, getting the way back when the Commonwealth
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edison account and to separate you know, copper and lead cable,
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and you know, grew to be in the seventies by
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then probably the largest non first you know scrapyard recycler
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in the Chicago area.
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Wow, that's unbelievable. So yeah, I mean it's when you
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look at the history of the recycling industry. It's kind
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of interesting that early on, like you're saying in the
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late eighteen hundred, it's early nineteen hundred, most people in
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that setting would have been doing it, like you said,
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for survival. They weren't doing it because it was cool exactly.
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It wasn't like the end thing to do or it was.
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It was actually looked at the opposite way.
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Yeah, no, and it was still and you know in
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many respects. Listen, you know, I'm Jewish. We come from
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a Jewish background. In those days, a lot of Jews
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didn't have access to other education even you know, weren't
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allowed in some certain universities and places and and businesses
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and practices. So what do you do. You use your hands,
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You go out and you find out what to do.
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And you know, this industry, you know, provided that opportunity.
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And sure today you know, now we all wear coats
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and ties, and you know we may you know, all
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know our finances as well as the guy with an
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MBA or have an MBA or so and those type
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things and the growth, but that's just natural growth.
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And you know.
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That's that's why I do love this industry because if
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you do the hard work and you get your hands dirty,
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it can pay off, yeah, for sure. And it's real work. Yeah,
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you know. That's even one of the things when Jason
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said to me going back to him, he says, when
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you want to come, he says, Dad, I see what
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you're doing.
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It's real.
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Yeah, And he says, you know, I could be in
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this consulting business and I could be doing all this
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Wall Street stuff, but it wasn't real.
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Yeah, felt a little detached. I think my step brother
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he experienced that. After he got his MBA, he was
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going to be a consultant and kind of dabbled here,
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dabbled there a little bit, and then he was like,
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you know, I think I want to own my own business.
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And he ended up going out and getting a small
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business loan and he owns a business actually right outside
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Chicago now and they're making like leather binders for like
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law firms and stuff like that. But I think he
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was feeling the same thing, like what you're talking about.
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Jason was saying. It was just it's a little bit
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too sterile. Oh and it's not really related, you know,
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like what like what we experience and probably what he
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was thinking when he was like dad. When I think
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about all the people, like even when you're even when
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my dad turned the lights out there and she bought dinner.
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Stuff like that. No, and that's the people you meet.
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And that's why I love coming, you know, even at
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this stage and just coming to the relationships that are
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built in this industry.
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Sure, and and they're real.
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And I can't tell you how many I've probably been
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to every little league ballpark in North Carolina, South Carolina
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and Maryland in my life. Why because I travel the roads.
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When I was first starting to buy. You get in
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the car and you get a relationship with a guy
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from X y Z Iron and Metal in Wilmington or
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Charlotte or Alexandria or wherever it is, and he says,
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come on, buddy, let's you know, after you tour the yard,
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my son's playing little league ball.
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Let's go see it.
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And you go when you play little and you go
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watch his kid play ball, and you have dinner at
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the home right, and you know, it's a wonderful thing,
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this industry because of those relationships.
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Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about relationships just
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a little bit. Because Jason grew up seeing you do that.
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You grew up in a different generation, wasn't technology driven,
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So when you needed to connect with somebody, yeah, you
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did have the telephone. That's my daughter asked me sometimes.
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She was like, ed, you did have a telephone right
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when you grew up, And I'm like, oh my god, yes,
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we had telephones. But but the way you connected relationally
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was you went, got in your car, drove rubbed shoulders.
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One of the things that I find very, very frustrating
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about young buyers or sellers is that you ask them
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about follow up and they're like, well, I emailed the guy.
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No it's and I'm like, hey, we're trying to close
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this deal, like I need more than an email, Like
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this is a big deal. But in their mind, like
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that is how they're connected.
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Yeah, it's a it's a false sense of connection in
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my opinion. I mean, you know, like you say, when
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we started out, my boss said to me, and it
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was in Baltimore, Maryland, and I ninety five, the major
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highway that goes from Maine to Florida. And finally after
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you know, when I was ready to go become a buyer.
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So what do you do?
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He says, Okay, you get in the car on Monday,
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drive to Miami. When you get to Miami, turn around,
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come back to Baltimore, and you take rest for a while.
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Then the next week you get back in the car,
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you drive to Maine, and then you come on back
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down and you meet these people. And he said, the
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other thing that I want to make sure you do,
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because like I said, there were phones, but there was
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these things that many people and they are listeners, made
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not realize. There was also something called the Yellow Pages.
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Perfect I was hoping you were going to bring that up.
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Yeah, And I said, how am I supposed to find
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these scrapyards? He goes, you just got every time you
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go to a pay phone, there'll be there'll be a
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Yellow Pages there. You go to the Yellow Pages, look
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for the scrap metal dealers. Then and you go and
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you'll see all the names, and then do yourself a
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favor and excuse me for violating federal law. Probably at
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that point you rip those pages out.
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You become the new owner, because.
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Your competitor maybe driving behind you the next day. And
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that's what And again, you built those relationships and it's real,
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and you know, and and so in today's and okay,
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then all of a sudden the mobile phone show up,
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you know, and I had this huge you know box
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that was in my car that was a mobile phone.
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And then all of a sudden facts show up. And
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then all of a sudden, you know, the next thing
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show up.
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And.
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You know it, and we get we started to use
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these I think advances, which are very good. I mean,
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there's don't get me wrong. I do like email from
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the standpoint of sometimes there's no confusion. If I say
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to you fifty cents and you thought I said fifty
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two cents, we can go back to the email, and
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it's when it's writing and there's no legitimate confusion between
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I thought I heard you say one thing and you
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said other thing. But when that's the crutch, you know
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what I mean that people use and they don't, you know,
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make that connection. What differentiates you from the other guy
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who's just doing the same thing. Correct, Because sure, in
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your business there are things that I'm sure there is
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a there's some secret sauce in seventy four alloys and
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tongko and certain things you may know that your competitors
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don't but get and same thing in our business with ICT,
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we may know some things that our competitors don't. But
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the reality is probably ninety percent of what we do,
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our competitors do the same thing. So how do we
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differentiate ourselves from the competitor? And in my opinion, that
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comes down to relationships and honest relationships, not just I'm
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not trying to denegrate McDonald's when I say this, but
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not when you get done at McDonald's, make your r
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and they say have a nice day and they're not
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even looking at you. You know, in our businesses have
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a nice day and it means it and you know,
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what are you doing today? You get a little deeper
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in that relationship, and to me, that's what can separate
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our company from our competitors.
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Sure, yeah, because like you said, scrap is scrap, So
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what's that little percentage that's gonna have somebody to be like, No,
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those are the guys I'm doing business.
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With, right and you know, and so it's about trust
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because they know they're going to deliver and okay, in
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our end of the business, just like you're today, there's
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some real high value here. Oh yeah, you know, we
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can be buying a truckload from somebody and it's a
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quarter of a million dollars to a million dollars. Sure,
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and there's got to be a lot of trust with
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that kind of money.
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Oh yeah. And so that trust.
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That you can build gets those people to be able to,
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you know, deal with you. And everything is as transparent today.
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You can pick up one hundred different publications or different
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websites and it'll show the price of aluminum, copper, bear
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bright its three or four three sixteen, that's tantalum, tungsten,
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whatever metals we're all dealing and it's all published. Yeah,
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it's not secret anymore. It's not a secret anymore. I mean,
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you know, I joke around in the old days when
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I first started by Stainless, I used to be able
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to ask one question. So Cliff Nance would call me up, Hey, Philip,
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I got stainless to sell. Great Cliff, is it magnetic
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or non magnetic? And you'd answer magnetic, okay, that'll be
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ten cents a pound, or if you say non magnetic,
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that'll be twenty five cents a pound, and that was it.
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Then to the transaction you'd say, fine, I got let's
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just say non magnetic, right, say you forty pounds or
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twenty five cents. You didn't have any XRF machines you
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didn't have. You had no idea whether it was three
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oh four or three sixteen, whatever it was. Then there
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were companies like us who could afford to have these
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big kevex machines that were the size of this room,
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you know, to analyze stuff. And sure enough that was
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ink and nel six hundred worth three dollars a pound,
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not twenty five.
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Cents score score.
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You know, today's like and age or then it started
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to change. A guy would call them three or four
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stainless was just basically eight eight and a half percent nickel.
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They'd call up and say, well, I got eight point
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five six percent nickel bearing three oh four. What are
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you going to pay me for that extra point six
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percent of nickel? And I'd be like, what did you
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just say? But that's the difference, and.
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It's so now you got educated sellers.
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So you got ed and it's good to have educated sellers.
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It's good to have educated you know, consumers. And I'm
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not I'm not sitting there wishing for the old days, sure,
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but I'm sitting there those are the realities that we
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have to change. But now if everybody knows what everybody knows,
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how do you still then differentiate yourself and make it
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legitimate also, because these publications don't always get things right.
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That's right, And.
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How do you when the guy calls up the publication
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says it's two dollars a pound and you're quoting me
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a dollar seventy five? Like, how do they trust me?
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You know?
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I mean my sure favorite line.
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A lot of the metals we deal with or traded
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on the LEM and I always used to joke, I said,
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you're right, do me a favor.
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Take your truck, deliver it to the LEM.
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And he look look at me and go, what the
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f for? You talking about delivery it to the l B.
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I said, so, why you quote the LME? It's an
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irrelevant it's the number until you could deliver that.
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Getting your pickup truck and take it down there and
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let me know how that works out.
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For you, says Element.
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That's in London and I'm in Martinsville, South Carolina. I
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as well have a nice trip, you know.
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Well that's that is That's fantastic, man. I mean, that
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is a perfect example of some of the sellers that
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we can deal with. But let's talk about just for
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we got just a couple of minutes to live. Let's
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talk about ic D how I mean, we're obviously they
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bring a different relationship feel to the table. But just
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talk a little bit about what I see special ic
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D specializes in.
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And what all the coverage is. You know, I see
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the very neat interesting company. We're privately held company based
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out of New York. We're part of the ICD group
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that's into almost every facet of raw materials around the world.
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We have interest in minds, we have interested in processors,
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we have our own melt shop, we have multiple recycling
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facilities Australia, China, Europe, US three in the United States.
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Very forward thinking organization. My areas of responsibility and what
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the Metals and Alloy Division, which is a division that
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I'm the commercial director of. We specialize in nickel alloys
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for aerospace use, cobalt alloys, tungsten alloys, molly mo libdinum alloys,
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titanium alloys, and so anything that goes into the aerospace sector.
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We're probably touching except for the aluminum frames.
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On and is the aerospace sector or industry is that
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just something that you all focus on particularly, or that's
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just where a lot of these alloys that's.
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Where a lot of the alloys and that's where the
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needs are, you know, the terminology that some people may
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be familiar with their vacuum alloys versus air melt alloys.
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So it's it's definitely the niche part of the recycling
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industry where uh it's it's you know, high dollars, low volumes, tantlement,
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you know. Sure, And somebody says, and again, I know
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this isn't about pricing, and I don't want toybody's you know,
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then hear this and call me and say what's your price?
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But we're talking to Some of these things we're dealing
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with are two, three, four hundred dollars a pound or
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even higher.
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You get into these things.
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And I joke around sometimes when I first came to
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be with ic D, anything that ends in.
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Em we do.
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And I said, what is that titanium, gallium, niobium, molybdenum,
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you know. And at one point when I started to
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get involved with this with versus my background and just
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kind of the nickel, cobalt alloys and stainless and the
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owner says to me, we're looking for germanium. I looked
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at him and said, we're looking for Germanium. I think
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those are the flowers I gave my wife for Valentine's
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Day last year and he said, no, you knucklehead the metal.
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But so I've even it's been a pleasure for me. Yeah,
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because you've had shift your folks to learn. You know,
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I was with another company that we had sold and
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been there for all my career and uh, you know,
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now to be with us, it's it's re energized, you know,
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a sixty year old guy to be able to go
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into a new business with good people. And uh so
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it's a wonderful ICD is a great organization. We're very open,
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we're very lean. Uh we do you know, I could
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get into the specifics. There's four of us on the
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commercial side and we're doing more business than one could imagine.
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That's awesome and it's great.
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Well, let me say thank you for being on Cliff's
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notes and it is very exciting to hear everything that's
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going on, not only for your family, for ic D,
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and thank you for your friendship, the relationship that we've
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had for for decades now. We've we've been at Rima
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together for for decades and you're actually the main reason
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why we joined. We didn't even know about this kind
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of organization. So appreciate you. Appreciate your father, your wife, kids,
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the whole family. And make sure you tell Steve and
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the boys. I said, hello, I will for sure, and
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I do. I mean, I know you want to end it.
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I just want to say, that is what you just
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hit on, that relationship. Yeah, and that knowing and I'm
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not saying, you know, here was your father, you know,
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bumping into me and at it was actually at a
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consumer outing and.
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You know, what do you know?
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And you just start a relationship and it's honest and
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next thing you know, we're having dinner at each other's homes,
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we're touring the you know, Israel together, right, you know,
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and there's no historical connection between us. Sure we had
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a connection of honest people, honest business and guess what
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some fun times. That's right, because that's also the key,
415
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That's right. You know, this is not just about buying
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and selling. It's also about having fun.
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Yeah. Well, man, I love you. Appreciate than you and
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thank you for being on cliff notes.
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Thank you. I really appreciate it pretty well. Thank you.
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Care Cliff Snows, Cliff Snows, Cliff snows, cliff snows