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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of Caught on the Mike.
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Some songs are written because you have something to say.
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Others are written because you have something you have to survive.
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Andy Gruen's debut album, Hannah, Lives Somewhere in That Space.
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It's a record about grief, fatherhood, trauma, memory, and figuring out how to live after your life changes forever.
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Today we're talking about the story behind Hannah, the deeply personal Bobby featuring Alejandro Aranda.
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We were just talking about him.
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And what happens when songwriting becomes a way to keep moving forward.
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Andy, how the hell are you, man?
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I'm I'm I'm doing pretty good.
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I'm I'm glad to be here.
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I'm excited to have you.
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I was just listening to the album before you jumped on.
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Like I said, I absolutely love it.
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I love the production on it.
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Thank you, yeah.
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So good.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I I attribute that all to the people that helped me help me build it.
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Taylor Larson, Frank Afruza, Arnie Woods, all of them are Ernie on drums.
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I mean, all of them are geniuses.
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So yeah, yeah.
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Well, Hannah is out in the world now after caring these songs for so long.
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It's so weird to hear someone say that.
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Hannah's out in the world now.
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Like she's she's she's gone from the world.
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You know, this is I've never heard I've never heard it say it said like that, but yeah.
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The album is up there.
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No, no, no, it's cool.
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It's cool that like it's out.
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That's that's a that's a cool thing.
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That's a cool thing.
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Well, I I mean it with all respect, man, because uh it's a heavy load.
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Like, and after carrying all of these songs for so long, what does it actually feel like to finally release this record and have it no longer exclusively belong to you?
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Putting it out is the best part of this whole thing.
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And I didn't realize that.
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I I didn't realize that that was going to be the best part.
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Um, because I didn't know what I was doing this for.
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And now that I'm kind of free of it, other than you know, like the occasional podcast conversation like we're having right now, um, like I'm focusing on the things that I would have been focusing on had none of this happened.
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You know, I'm newly engaged, uh, my son is amazing.
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Um and uh I read a quote the other day that really stuck with me.
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It's like, spend your money on things that money should be spent on, and spend your time on things that money can't be spent on.
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So like I'm I'm focusing on the latter.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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It's kind of crazy.
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Uh life has a funny way of kind of determining our path for us, despite whatever plans we make.
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Uh I've another quote I've heard is you want to make God laugh, make plans.
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Yeah, you know?
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Yeah, not to get deeply into religion, but like I've kind of severed ties with with whatever, and I've just kind of accepted that what is will be.
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You kind of have to when you're in this situation.
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And um what I'm what I'm happy about is that I am no longer uh accustomed to feeling suffering every day.
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And I feel like carrying this record was it was a it was a burden that I I just had with me for a while.
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I mean, we it took way too long to put this thing out.
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Like way, way too long.
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I I thought we were gonna be like a few months and done.
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We are two and a half years in.
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And like I I'm just I'm just glad it's done.
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And a lot of that has to do with me and my perfectionism, and you know, but like I'm just glad it's over.
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Yeah.
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So very freeing.
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What was more therapeutic?
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Was it the process of like putting these tracks down or getting it out in the world?
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I wouldn't me getting it out into the world wouldn't have felt therapeutic had I not done the album.
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Um I needed a thing or place or I mean I mean, when this happens to people, most people turn to religion, they turn to all sorts of things.
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That's that was not for me.
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Um so I needed to to focus it somewhere.
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And instinctively, because you know, it's it's it's part of when you're obsessed with music, or if you're obsessed with drawing, or obsessed with whatever it is that you're obsessed with, that becomes your instinct.
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So instinctively, after everything happened and I was losing my mind, I instinctively was like, I need to put this all into a piece of music.
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And um, so had I not and had I not had the support and everybody helped me um create this, it would have been much harder.
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But I I would say going back to your original question, making the album was the therapy, but releasing the album is is I finally feel like I can take the next chapter of my life, like I can move forward.
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Nothing really changes, but I can move I can move forward.
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Dude, that is such a fair assessment, and honestly, a very candid one.
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And and I really enjoy that.
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You know, I was talking to you before we pressed record about some of the quotes that you've put out into the world that I really enjoy.
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And one of them is everyone writes about the explosion, nobody writes about the smoke.
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That's a line from your recent mundane interview, and it really jumped out at me.
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You deliberately chose not to make Hannah a traditional memorial to your wife, but instead to explore what happens after the loss.
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Why was the aftermath the story that you needed to tell?
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Because when Hannah died, I it really put into perspective I mean, I've heard people use the term ego death so many times in my life.
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I experienced whatever that form of ego death was, and who was I to tell Hannah's story?
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Right.
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Who am I?
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You know, I knew I Hannah and I were together for nine years.
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She was 33 when she passed away, you know.
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I nothing I could have written could have brought her back to life.
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And it felt inappropriate for me to think that I have the right to do that, you know what I mean?
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Um I I don't know, you know, it's it's it's it's a weird, it's a weird gray area.
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And also just at the time, I when when I when this first and this idea first came into mind, I was so I didn't even want to think about Hannah.
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Like I it like you know, it it's it was very hard because I was writing about all this stuff, but I I I I was trying to escape in every single way possible from my own head.
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So, you know, this everyone writes about the smoke, so the explosion.
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What I was trying to say is, you know, like in my experience, a lot of artists they'll write this big epic ballad about this amazing, incredible, or horrible moment in time, and it'll be the whole thing, and it's like, well, what about after?
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Right.
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Like, because for me, the the the after is the part that changed my life, really, you know, where where I started really looking at myself differently and and thinking differently and just where the the the shifts started to happen.
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You know, I I I I kind of learned along the way that I'm too stupid to really truly have any opinion about other people or about the grand scheme of things in life because I'm just a regular person.
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And to think that I have uh any right or or superiority or intellectual or artistic need to do that, I I think that's a bunch of bullshit, and that's I I it would be inauthentic of me to do so.
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Yeah, and I I again I want to give you your props and your flowers for being so candid about that because I imagine that it is a real challenge to kind of try and preserve somebody's memory without feeling like you're living inside or trapped by the memory, if that makes sense.
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I mean, my my life was already trapped by the memory.
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I I mean, I look I in in in when I originally was writing this record, I every single time I look at my son, I see my wife.
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You know what, you know what I mean?
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I and also like when something like what what people don't see, what the biggest thing that people don't know when something like this happens to you and it happens in such a tragic way it's the people that are closest to you that don't get it and will just like change your life for you without your permission, because you are so the concept of of having any self-governance or or having any opinion about anything is it's gone, it's just it just disappears.
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So, you know, I I I was I was in a I was in a box writing about the box that I was in.
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Yeah.
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Well, you've mentioned your son a few times, and I imagine going through something like that probably redefined you as a person, obviously, and your role as a father on the grand scheme of things.
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Probably just obviously shock and you know, um, but Bobby, the song, feels like the emotional centerpiece of the album.
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You described it as a song you weren't right really writing for yourself, but for him.
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How different was the songwriting process when you knew you were creating something Bobby could potentially listen to years from now and learn something about his mother through?
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It was completely different than the other songs.
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Um that was a song that I knew I I knew I had to write a song for Bobby.
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I other otherwise the album would have felt not incomplete, but like just there's a fundamental missing component here, you know.
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But I didn't want to do it in any kind of cringy way.
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I just know I just knew it had to be beautiful and it had to be honest and it had to be real, and I had to say I I couldn't I couldn't make up a bunch of stuff that he wouldn't believe, or you know.
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So smartest thing I could possibly do was hit up who hit up the most talented person I know.
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And I'll there you go, Alejandro.
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And I was, and you I just said I I saw one of Alejandro's riffs.
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I mean, I've been following Alejandro forever.
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I just I just found an old riff and I was like, dude, can you just play that?
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And he was like, Yeah.
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I wrote the whole song to that, and that was it.
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And and what I what I really kept that song to is I didn't want to go into too much detail.
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You know, I just what I'm trying to convey in that song to my son isn't necessarily isn't the like the only thing very obviously is is like that that Hannah and myself will always love him.
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But um and so many people think that song is a tribute to Hannah, and I guess in their perspective it is, but it's really for my son.
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What what I'm trying to say to Bobby is that like if he's ever in a position in life where he's questioning like whether it's worth the risk to love somebody or something because of circumstance or because uh it may change things.
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Like, look at my story, look at what happened to your dad.
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We love the shit out of you, and we'll always will.
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And like I I hope this song if he listens to it, he'll he'll you know, take a chance on love.
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When you heard the finished product with all of Hondo's parts and all of your stuff mixed together, um did it change the emotional meaning of the song for you?
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Uh it was like I I at the time I was so numb still.
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I was still I was still very ice, ice cold.
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Um, but I knew it was something because it was the first song that I had shown anybody, and I showed my parents, and they were sobbing like and and like every and then I start I started showing like friends, and when my dude friends are like stop like crying after hearing it, I'm like, oh, okay, mission accomplished, I guess.
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You know, I didn't I didn't I you know I that's the thing with this with this record, you know, the the the the only song, the only song, the only parts of the record where I was like, oh my fucking god, finally, was when I when I finished PTSD, because I I felt like that song was like that's um that's an Andy Gruen song, and that's like yes, right.
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And the end of the sun and the moon, that big, that big chorus at the end, that felt like, wow, holy shit, we made that.
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Like, wow, you know, that that that was those those are like the two moments in the record where out of my numbness, while we were making it, I was like, whoa, like that's that sounds crazy.
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One of the things I'm really enjoying so far as we're having this conversation is we're getting into some deep, weighty, heavy shit, but we're still able to laugh.
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And I think you gotta laugh.
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I think that is like a good indication of the headspace that you're in right now, having this out in the world.
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And I don't think that's coincidental at all.
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And I'm I'm no psychiatrist and I'm not trying to play an armchair one, but I do think this is very indicative of of where you're at right now.
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The song Fear of Flying takes the idea and kind of takes it into another direction.
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You described the song um as being about becoming afraid to lose things once you actually have something to lose.
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And you know, kind of talking about having this out in the world, along with the nightmares and guilt associated with experiencing joy again.
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What did you have to confront yourself to write that song to put you where you're at right now?
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So, so so that song is really interesting because like that hook, I've actually had that hook for a while.
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The yeah, I had this recurring dream, but like I repurposed that song because when Hannah died, I had not the dreams that I explained in the song.
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I had, and I will not, that's one thing that I will not discuss.
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I had the most horrible, vivid, recurring nightmares every single night for about nine and a half, ten months.
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Like it was just bad.
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It was bad.
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I was waking up screaming and sweating and crying and pissed the bed a couple times.
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It was just bad.
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PTSD is no joke, dude.
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Like, so I wanted to write a song about dreams.
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But at that point, when I realized like I wanted I wanted to write a song about dreams, I was already kind of like I'm ready to be done feeling like this, you know?
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And it made me realize like one of the funniest things, and and and the and I actually like started writing this song because I was I was talking to Clay, Arnie Woods, who helped who helped me write a bunch of the songs on the record.
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And uh I had just come back on a on a trip to LA or something, and I and I and I was I was getting off the plane and I was just remembering something that I used to talk about with my therapist, uh that like when you got when when there's nothing to lose, you know, like you'll get on an airplane, you'll jump out of a plane, you know.
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It doesn't matter.
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When I skydiving when I was a kid, I I love that.
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Like that's crazy.
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Now, think about Bobby, like it's it's just it's just different.
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So, like, you know, there's a period of time like after Hannah died where like that reckless feeling, it totally came back.
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Because while when I was married, I was terrified of flying.
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Oh my God, I couldn't travel anywhere.
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And then it disappeared, and then I realized like I wanted to write a song about the dreams.
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And then wait a second, I just got back on from this flight flight from LA, and I'm feeling like that flight, that flight back was like kind of scary.
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Because like it was before I had I had asked my my girlfriend at the time to to marry me.
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Um, thank whoever for her.
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She's uh what you would call a godsend.
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She's basically the biggest supporter on this record.
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Um, but I realized like that flight, like, holy shit, like I I felt, I felt like I had something to lose.
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And it and it made and it it's like weird.
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It's like a bad feeling, but it's also like a good, a good feeling.
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So so that whole song became kind of like I'm so ready to be free of this, but it keeps pulling me back in because you get addicted to the feeling of pain and suffering and redundancy and you just and pity and all the shit you gotta deal with when this happens to you, when the other side is just so much better.
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Like, yeah.
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Well, once you break through that wall, dude, it's just like, oh my god.
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You know, and I'm not gonna dredge up anything about the dreams, just more of a commentary.
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And for sure, I it's a it's a weird thing because I think it happens in grief a lot.
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And I despite my God quote earlier, I am as spiritually ambiguous as you can get.
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I don't know what the fuck I believe, you know.
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You know, I think maybe there's something, I don't know.
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But I would say I was very religious before this rec before everything happened, and then it became then it became inept, and now I just think that everyone's too stupid.
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So stop wasting your time thinking about it.
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No, but everyone's a fucking idiot.
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Like, just like we're all we all have assholes, we all shit out of our assholes.
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Yep, you know, like shut up.
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Like but the thing, the thing about the dreams Andy Grown for president, but yeah, but yeah, absolutely 100%.
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Um the thing about the dreams thing is I know when I've experienced moments of grief or the moment of somebody passing, that is where they come to me, is in my sleep more frequently than not.
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And it's almost like finishing conversations that I never got to finish why these people were alive or with us.
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And it can be a haunting thing.
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And you know, you you cited the BTSD part of it.
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It's it's legit, man.
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If people don't take that as seriously as they probably should.
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No, no.
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I mean, I mean, if Bobby wasn't, I mean, truth, this is just objectively true.
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If Bobby was not born, I would would a hundred percent be dead.
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Like, not even a question.
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So I felt very trapped in a way.
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I wish my dreams about Hannah were positive in any way.
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I have not had a single positive dream ever about Hannah, which is like really sad.
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I didn't get to say goodbye.
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Like, you know, like I forget what her voice sounds like sometimes.
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I for I forget, I forget.
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Someone else asked me this the the a question in in an interview, but I was like, but the right before the interview, I was like looking through phones, uh, looking through my phone of pictures of that time, and I don't even recognize that person.
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I have no idea.
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Someone some people will tell me about an I I attended an event or did something or said something or had a belief, and I'm just like, what?
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It's it's like my brain biochemically just changed.
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Do you think that that's also a byproduct of just time passing and the compartmentalization of different seasons of life as well?
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:24.720
You know, you kind of have the grief side of things going on one path, but you also have the aging side of life going on another path because I, you know, I kind of recall that in my own life where I'm just like, you know, I don't remember that version of myself, let alone anybody that was in that fucking part of my life where that version of myself existed.
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:29.599
You know, so do you think you kind of got the double whammy with both things happening at the same time?
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:43.440
You know, I want to say yes, but I don't think I I don't think I did, you know, because I because I I'll put it to you this way most people I know, they still they still have moments where they s where they like feel like a kid.
00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:46.160
Like, you know, like you feel like you're 13 again.
00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:48.079
I don't have those moments anymore.
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.079
The day Hannah died was the day that I became 32 years old.
00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:54.559
And I've been 32 years old since that day.
00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:59.359
I don't experience that youthful feeling anymore.
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.920
I really try to, and there's glimpses, there's glimpses of it.
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:10.480
I can I can look back at my 16-year-old self and be like, wow, that kid's a stupid idiot.
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:10.880
Right.
00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:11.680
No question.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:23.039
I can look back at my 25-year-old self and while I'll be like, wow, that guy's a stupid idiot, just by objectively looking at the things that I did or things that I thought or things that I believed.
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:33.759
But I can't look back at my 32-year-old self and like remember what my marriage felt like.
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:41.039
Or or I I don't really remember the conversations that I had with Hannah.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:44.319
I don't remember like the arguments that we had.
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.480
I don't remember Bobby's first six months of life.
00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:49.920
I don't really remember.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:25:09.200
And I'll and bits and pieces come back, but it's really like when something like this happens, you you the whole world continues to move, and your world just stops.
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:10.000
Right.
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:32.400
And you just see everybody else like what while after this happened, I saw like divorces and I saw my friends also having children more children, and I'm watching families grow, and I'm watching families fall apart, and I'm like, I'm just like sitting in my basement writing this album, just like, what the hell is happening?
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:33.119
You know?
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:37.200
So it you you kind of feel like an alien.
00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:40.720
That that's the easy, you know, you feel like you don't belong here.
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:55.519
No, that's that's totally valid and fair because I I think as humans, when we go through these things, one of the things you mentioned was some of the people that were closest to you couldn't conceptualize what you were going through at the time.
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:57.680
And it and it it is that is so true.
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:07.680
Like sometimes it takes an ambiguous third party that doesn't even know you to recognize what you're going through more than the people that you see every single day sometimes.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:19.519
The moment that I that I knew something was different was uh it was right after Hannah died, and I had a bunch of friends and family over because that's what Jews do.
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:33.920
We have the Shiva, and you know, and I was chain smoking cigarettes in my backyard, and I saw uh, and there were so many people, and I felt like I was just talking to I don't know what I was hallucinating out of my mind.
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:54.400
And one of my friends who was in the military, hardcore, we start talking, and I'm like, everything this guy's saying makes sense, and I'm like, oh shit, like it was it was at that moment I'm like, oh no, dude.
00:26:54.880 --> 00:27:05.680
And yeah, that's kind of when it really hit that like something happened internally in my head.
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:06.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:15.519
Because the people that are closest to you sometimes overly try and find a commonality with what you're going through, and sometimes it can go to the case of the colour.
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:20.720
Solution after solution after solution after solution.
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:38.720
When when you're grieving, all you need is witnesses, you just need people to recognize that you exist because, like, yeah, the person died, but like chances are the person closest to that person also felt like they died.
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:48.720
Like it's it's proven, like when it happens to a woman, they feel biologically connected to the child.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:53.359
Men do not have that feeling.
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:55.519
A widower does not have that feeling.
00:27:55.599 --> 00:28:01.279
So when I looked at Bobby, I was terrified of him for a long time.
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:05.839
Now, now he's my he's he's he's my twin, he's my boy.
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:07.440
I I love that kid.
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:12.559
Uh but like I could I couldn't I couldn't look at him for a while.
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:22.640
It was very hard, and I will regret that for the rest of my life because he was literally the cutest kid ever that I've ever seen in my life, you know.
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:33.039
And um goes though you know, it's hard to kind of place where your mindset goes creatively in a situation like this.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:40.400
You know, I've I've gone through a divorce and I've uh again playing armchair psychiatrist.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:56.559
One of the things that I've talked to other friends that have either kind of gone through similar similar situations as yourself or as myself going through a divorce is you almost develop three separate personalities, like the id, the ego, the superego version of yourself.
00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:09.920
There's the there's the person that's that's mourning the thing that happened, there's the person that's like almost manic and overreacting to everything that happened, and then there's the person that finally makes peace with everything that happened.
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:16.799
And those three different versions can show up unexpectedly at any point in time.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:24.240
I remember that first year I was going through my divorce, I was just like, holy fuck, what version of Mike is gonna wake up today?
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:28.640
Which one is it gonna be the guy that's going to the bar saying, woo-hoo, I'm single again?
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:34.720
Or is it gonna be the guy that wants to stay in bed all day because he feels like he's failed his kids, you know?
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:43.519
And and that same person has to wake up and go to their job so that they can provide for their family.
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:51.920
And you know, in my situation, I was so dependent on Hannah, I didn't know anything about babies.
00:29:52.079 --> 00:30:02.640
I nothing, you know, but like she it really these if anything, like these last what's the easiest way to say this?
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:13.440
But now it's hard for I it's hard for I don't really regret anything that's ever happened to me because like I I don't have control of anything, but like Hannah turned me into a man.
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:26.640
I I was a little boy before, and she helped me become a man and this event might have put an extra period on that.
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:31.039
Like this event, this event turned me into an old man.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:46.559
Um you know, you know, my my the my my fiance, she she she I don't need anybody to kick my ass or you know, get me into gear anymore.
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:52.079
I I just need a witness, someone who's there for me, someone who understands it.
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:54.480
She understands grief in her own way, you know.
00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:56.480
Like, like yeah.
00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:02.240
I don't know why I went off on that tangent, but but I I I felt I felt like it was poignant when I first started saying it.
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:05.680
Dude, this is this is fantastic, honestly.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:18.480
You know, getting back to the album, you know, there's songs like PTSD, My Basement and Cursed, and my personal favorite track on the album is concrete so far, and just getting getting into it right now.
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:27.119
Um you've pushed back on the idea that grief happens in clean stages, and that's a lot of what we've been talking about just now.
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:36.160
When you look at the 10 tracks in totality, do you see an emotional narrative that you couldn't necessarily see when you were writing it?
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:44.240
I I knew the track order before before like we finished the record, you know.
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.000
Uh it starts at concrete.
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:56.160
Concrete um is my disassociation from my older self and my disassociation with God.
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:05.519
Safe is my panic song, where I just wanted to I I I literally I'm very literal.
00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:08.160
I I I want to feel safe again.
00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:10.000
Like that's what I was trying to say.
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:15.440
I and I even say in my verse, you know, I recognize that I'm just a pawn, I have no control over anything.
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:23.200
And I ended that song with Arnie with my buddy Clay screaming his face off, saying, I want to get out of this fucking house, because like I I did.
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:29.519
You know, glue is about how we can't how things get stuck to you no matter.
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:35.440
I can't say in the hook, I don't want to love you anymore, but I I I do, you know?
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:39.839
And then PTSD, it's what was happening.
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:45.839
Cursed is as an interlude, kind of feels like I'm I at the time I felt like I was cursed.
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:54.240
Like I felt like that was my life, and then the lighter side of the record starts to appear.
00:32:54.400 --> 00:33:01.519
Like my basement is more it's more of like a shoegazy feel.
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:30.000
It's dark, especially lyrically, but like it's it's there's there's a little hope in there, and Turn to Stone is a lot more reflective, and then Bobby is Bobby, and then Fear of Flying is really trying to get out of there, and then the sun and the moon is kind of I wanted that to be one giant crescendo into that one line, our love is all but dead and gone, you know, like and and that's like that, you know.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:46.400
I wanted the the record to end with you know noises from nature, you know, kind of explaining like at the end of it, we all we all go, but the love lives on.
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:58.640
One thing that comes up frequently on my show is this modern era of music that we're sitting in and how everything is genre fluid anymore.
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:23.679
Like, if you look at the genre bender, yeah, if you look at you look at genre blending, the only benefit, or it's not the only benefit, but the the biggest silver lining of the streaming services is the fact that the guardrails are off now, and an artist doesn't have to paint themselves in a corner to be successful, they can kind of lean into all of their influences.
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:37.360
You've talked about being influenced by songwriters like Damian Rice, he's one of my favorites, Elliot Smith, Matt Nathanson, and Springsteen before some of the emo and alternative bands that people might associate with your sound at large.
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:45.519
My advice to anybody that's listening to this or watching this is don't judge this album on one song.
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:52.960
Try and listen to the collective to kind of experience the whole journey journey as far as genres go.
00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:59.039
Um, you've even described yourself as a singer-songwriter who does it a bit more aggressively as well.
00:34:59.280 --> 00:34:59.599
Yeah.
00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:11.039
Where do you personally draw the line between singer-songwriter, alternative and emo, and what do you think of as far as genre whenever you're creating?
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:17.840
It's kind of why like I've had so many people ask me, like, why don't I just come up with like a moniker or like a band name or whatever?
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:19.360
It's like, because that's bullshit.
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:20.639
That's not me, you know.
00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:21.280
I agree.
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:29.280
Um I I think I think all of it I view the type of music that I make.
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:33.199
You know, I genre blending, I've been genre blending for 17 years.
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:44.079
Yeah, you know, I I I had I I I had one band, we we put out like uh emo meets dubstep, and that stuff, that thing exploded on SoundCloud.
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:46.400
It's just crazy, it's just stupid.
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:49.440
Everyone's been making music forever, you know what I mean?
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:57.360
Like, like people use those words and they've they fetishise these words until they mean nothing anymore.
00:35:57.519 --> 00:35:58.400
Right, you know?
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:08.000
Um, so like I view myself as a storyteller, view myself as a singer-songwriter.
00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:14.320
So when someone asks, like, how they would approach my album, I'm telling a story.
00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:16.960
I'm saying exactly what happened.
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:27.039
If you if you only listen to one song, you're you're only gonna get one aspect of the story and probably think one part of I of who I am.
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:39.440
And I could have gone way more experimental if I really wanted to, but I wanted to keep this album very tasteful, you know, you know, very listenable.
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:51.039
Um, I didn't I didn't want to like push the lines too much, but you know, even though it it's an alternative record, I could argue that every song is sonically different.
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:51.840
It is.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:54.239
I I I I I'm 100%.
00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:57.679
I'm surprised more people haven't like approached me about it.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:08.239
Like, like glue like glue is a it's a synth song, and then and then my basement is way off, and the sun and the moon is a totally different thing.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:19.519
It's like, yeah, there's some rock songs on there, but like there's a song with screaming, there's a song, there's a song with strings, like you know, it's it's just kind of all over the place.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:31.920
So like I think, and I've said this in another interview, like people get the people that get caught up on genre, it's like it's like filing police work after you've already committed the crime.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.239
It's the shit that like nobody wants to do.
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:37.679
Like people care about what actually happened.
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:40.960
Like, no one, like, who cares what you call it?
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:48.079
It's it's it's about the emotion that it's supposed to bring out of you, and it's about the story that's being told.
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:50.239
I mean, I grew up listening.
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:54.400
My dad used to sing me Thunder Road by Bruce Springsteen as a lullaby when I was a kid.
00:37:54.559 --> 00:38:00.960
I grew up hearing about these great songwriters like Bob Dillon and Bruce Springsteen and Tom Waits and all these guys.
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:08.960
And, you know, like I look at I look at the music today, and I've been on both sides of the aisle.
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:19.599
Like I've been in AR, and I've I've been a manager, and I've been an artist, and I've I've been on I work in music and a preservation right now in a totally different space.
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:22.639
And it's like I've been on every side you can imagine.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:33.360
And it's kind of like the music, there's so much music today, but it's very rare where I where I encounter a record where it's like these guys are saying something.
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:42.400
Right, you know, I I hear a lot of noise, but I don't hear anyone saying something.
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:45.440
I got so bummed, I'll tell you this.
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:46.960
I got so bummed.
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:51.280
I put out Bobby, and that song means the world to me.
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:56.880
And I have no disrespect to whoever, you know, it's I have no beef with anybody that I don't personally know.
00:38:56.960 --> 00:38:58.400
I don't know Phoebe Bridgers.
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:04.719
But then she put out a song called Bobby, and it's about Bo fucking Burnham, and and that's not even his fucking name.
00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:08.559
And like, you you know, like, and that's a hit song.
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:09.519
And look, I get it.
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:11.280
Phoebe's amazingly talented.
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:13.679
I'm way less talented than Phoebe Bridgers.
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:15.599
I I can happily admit that.
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:22.320
But it's but it's also like, fuck man, that's my song title, like about my son.
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:24.960
Like, let me let me have that moment.
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:33.039
And so, like, I guess, and like going back to my influences, I listened to everything.
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:35.440
I think most musicians do, bro.
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:41.440
If you saw my like most recent two, I'll go through, I'll go through with you right now.
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:58.800
I mean, I'm listening to Japanese K-pop, and I got Orchid, and then I got Black Sabbath, and then I got Duskus and the spill canvas and turnstile, and uh, oh yeah, here's uh I got Wu-Tang clan.
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:01.360
Like, I'm all over, I'm all over the place, you know?
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:03.280
But that's because I love music.
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:19.920
Yes, and I feel like it's really silly to put people in a box because then what when when when when listeners put artists in boxes, people forget that like artists need validation, they need it, they they live off of it, they breathe it.
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:30.400
So when you put so whatever, I I I mean, some people use it as like marketing tactics, but like when you put an artist that you really like in a box, chances are they're gonna do that thing.
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:31.119
Yeah.
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:31.840
Yeah.
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:37.119
And if they do that thing and it's not their thing, it's probably gonna sound like shit.
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:45.920
And then you're gonna get mad at that artist for sounding like shit, for trying to do the thing that you asked them to do instead of doing it the way that they wanted them to do it.
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:46.880
And 100%.
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:50.559
That was the most important thing about this whole thing.
00:40:50.880 --> 00:41:17.119
I I'm deeply, deeply in the red, but I created a major record, a major label record by myself, with my own money, with my own people, with my own voice, without having anybody, anybody tell me what I can or cannot do, marketed it in the exact way that I wanted to do it, released it in the way that I wanted to do it.
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:18.960
Was I encouraged to do TikToks?
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:19.599
Yes.
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:22.800
Was I encouraged to do all the stupid stuff you don't want to do?
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:23.679
Yes.
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:26.559
Do I care about being a rock star?
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:27.280
No.
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:28.480
Some people might.
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:30.559
So you might want to do the other two things.
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:39.519
But other than that, it was liberating to just put out music without anybody's fingerprints on it.
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:39.760
Yeah.
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:40.719
Just mine.
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:48.159
And I feel like that is an authentic story that more people should tell.
00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:53.760
You know, a lot of people have been asking me like, is there, do I have any message with this record?
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:56.000
I think my message is very clearly obvious.
00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:58.159
Like, my wife passed away and I wrote about it.
00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:14.239
But like, after having so many of these conversations, I think my message is like, I don't care how you do it, but if you're gonna put out a piece of music, really make it your own and really make it about something.
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:22.400
Because if you don't, I think you're doing a disservice to yourself, not to your fans, not to your money.
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:23.840
I know you gotta pay bills.
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:25.840
Music is not the best way to pay bills.
00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:28.159
Hate to break this to you, it's just not.
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:31.599
But like, if you want to, got do what you gotta do.
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:37.280
But like, if you really want to make something, do it on your own terms and fuck everybody else.
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:40.239
Yes, dude, that is so amazing.
00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:54.239
I, you know, and one thing that I'm gonna kind of throw out there as like an objective third party here is there is an intertwined string and thread throughout the whole album.
00:42:54.400 --> 00:43:07.760
No matter what the genre you are kind of playing into, like you are the thread, and that is the best thing that you can have or ask of an artist is let them be the thread.
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:11.199
Because we've all seen it, like you said, a million times.
00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:38.480
An artist has a song that's a hit that's normally not in their wheelhouse, and then every fucking album that comes after that is a replication or an attempt at a replication of that hit, and that artist goes from being somebody you absolutely love for being who they authentically are to being who the industry wants them to be, and it's gross.
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:41.760
It went, Pete.
00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:43.599
You said it yourself.
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:49.920
I mean, the only thing that no one else can replicate is you.
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:55.760
Yeah, it's your strong, it's your strongest marketing asset, it's your strong strongest marketing asset.
00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:59.760
The only thing that they can't copy is you and your story and who you are.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.760
They can copy your sound, your image, your likeness, your everything.
00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:05.280
They cannot copy you.
00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:06.000
Yes.
00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:06.480
Yes.
00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:07.679
It'll be you.
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:08.719
Yes.
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:14.880
Well, I think it goes without saying you've brought some pretty significant voices to the record.
00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:25.920
You know, Alejandro that we talked about, Alejandro Aronda, uh, under oaths, Aaron Gillespie, uh, Arnie Woods, Elijah Gibb all appear on the album.
00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:35.199
What happens when you hand something this personal to another artist and essentially say, here, this is yours to interpret now.
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:41.039
Did any of those collaborations change how you heard your own songs on the finished product?
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:42.880
No.
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:45.440
No.
00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:55.679
Um Aaron's was the only feature that I didn't write, but he kind of wrote it exactly how I hoped.
00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:56.320
Yeah.
00:44:56.639 --> 00:44:59.519
So no.
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:08.719
You know, they all like Eli has an amazing voice.
00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:11.119
I wrote a part, knew he'd kill it.
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:17.039
Uh Clay, uh Arnie, who helped me on a lot of the record.
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:23.840
Uh I wrote that screaming part, and I dude's got vocals like a motherfucker.
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:26.480
Um, I knew he'd just ripped that.
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:30.159
Um Alejandro's Alejandro.
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:31.280
Yeah, like no.
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:40.320
You know, another aspect that I've brought up on the show many times, and this is just comes from my own past life of being a musician.
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:44.000
I'm sure you kind of deducted that throughout our conversation.
00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:45.039
Absolutely.
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:54.960
But I remember every time an album would drop, and this is taking subject matter of the album out of the equation.
00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:57.360
I'm just talking about the album itself.
00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:01.119
By the time the album would drop, I was pretty much over it.
00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:07.679
I was ready to purge myself and march into my next creative endeavor.
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:10.000
And like, yes, what's next?
00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:12.559
You know, kind of aspect of it.
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:28.559
Thinking about the fact that the album dropped last week, who's Andy Gruen today that maybe Andy, who started writing this album, couldn't have imagined becoming, both as a person and artistically?
00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:32.400
Um, I think I'm fundamentally different.
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:38.800
Um I think a lot of people, if you ask, you know me, will tell you the same.
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:49.760
Um I'm definitely artistically, um I'm a lot more uh confident.
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:58.880
It's nice that like I don't really I don't really give a shit what happens with this record if nothing happens to it, but like I know what I made.
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:00.079
It's fine.
00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:04.000
People can people can like it or not, like I know what I made.
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:25.519
Um as a person, you know, now I'm a person um with a lot more boundaries, healthy boundaries, um that has relearned how to speak for himself, not only musically.
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:35.119
Um I'm a person that keeps to himself a lot more, and I keep my circle a lot smaller.
00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:57.599
Um and I think I have a lot more agency over myself, and most importantly, I'm a hell of a lot better of a father and and assumed-to-be husband than I was before, just because I'm I'm I'm I'm a grown-up now.
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:00.960
I love that, brother.
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:03.920
I have really enjoyed this conversation.
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:08.000
I am now to call you just super proud to call you a friend.
00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:10.880
I am proud of everything that you've put forth.
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:14.159
Um, and I just met you an hour ago, not quite.
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:17.840
Um this is such a great chat.
00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:40.239
My closing question that I ask every guest that does the show, uh, because I appreciate different perspectives, but given everything that you've gone through, and you've gone through some pretty heavy stuff up to the release of this album, what's advice that you would give other people for making the world a better place tomorrow than what it is today through your eyes?
00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:45.440
Nobody has enemies, it's all made up in your head.
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:52.719
And it's unfair to make judgments of people before you know them.
00:48:53.440 --> 00:49:00.000
And that no matter what happens to you, love is the answer.
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:01.440
Hell yes.
00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:02.800
Hell yes.
00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:07.039
Andy, tell everybody where they can find you and your music online, my friend.
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:11.440
Uh, you can find me on primarily uh on Spotify.
00:49:11.599 --> 00:49:16.880
You can download my whole album for free on Bandcamp because I do not care.
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:26.800
Um and uh if you want to find me on socials, I I I tend to hide over on Instagram and you know, I I chill over there.
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:34.000
Um, and uh what my YouTube has a lot of really cool music videos if you want to check those out too.
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:37.599
So it's it's all Andy Gruin, A-N-D-Y-G-R-U-H-I-N.
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:38.880
I'm the only one on the planet.
00:49:39.039 --> 00:49:40.719
So I love it, dude.
00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:47.519
I again just to repeat myself for the the sake of driving the point home, I have really enjoyed this conversation.
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:49.920
Super proud to call you a friend now.
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:51.920
Thank you so much for doing the show, brother.
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.000
The world's a much better place with you and it.
00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:57.119
I I appreciate that, and it's it's been a pleasure.
00:49:57.199 --> 00:49:58.400
Thank you for having me off.
00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:34.159
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of Caught on the Mike.
00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:37.920
Some songs are written because you have something to say.
00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:42.000
Others are written because you have something you have to survive.
00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:46.560
Andy Gruen's debut album, Hannah, Lives Somewhere in That Space.
00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:54.799
It's a record about grief, fatherhood, trauma, memory, and figuring out how to live after your life changes forever.
00:00:55.039 --> 00:01:01.759
Today we're talking about the story behind Hannah, the deeply personal Bobby featuring Alejandro Aranda.
00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:03.759
We were just talking about him.
00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:08.799
And what happens when songwriting becomes a way to keep moving forward.
00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:10.959
Andy, how the hell are you, man?
00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:13.040
I'm I'm I'm doing pretty good.
00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:14.239
I'm I'm glad to be here.
00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:15.840
I'm excited to have you.
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:19.519
I was just listening to the album before you jumped on.
00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:21.680
Like I said, I absolutely love it.
00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:23.359
I love the production on it.
00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:24.480
Thank you, yeah.
00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:25.680
So good.
00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:26.640
Yeah, yeah.
00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:31.359
I I attribute that all to the people that helped me help me build it.
00:01:31.519 --> 00:01:36.879
Taylor Larson, Frank Afruza, Arnie Woods, all of them are Ernie on drums.
00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:38.400
I mean, all of them are geniuses.
00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:40.000
So yeah, yeah.
00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:45.200
Well, Hannah is out in the world now after caring these songs for so long.
00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:47.120
It's so weird to hear someone say that.
00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:48.640
Hannah's out in the world now.
00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:51.120
Like she's she's she's gone from the world.
00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:55.359
You know, this is I've never heard I've never heard it say it said like that, but yeah.
00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:57.439
The album is up there.
00:01:57.680 --> 00:01:58.719
No, no, no, it's cool.
00:01:58.879 --> 00:02:01.120
It's cool that like it's out.
00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:02.799
That's that's a that's a cool thing.
00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:03.760
That's a cool thing.
00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:09.199
Well, I I mean it with all respect, man, because uh it's a heavy load.
00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:20.879
Like, and after carrying all of these songs for so long, what does it actually feel like to finally release this record and have it no longer exclusively belong to you?
00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:24.400
Putting it out is the best part of this whole thing.
00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:25.840
And I didn't realize that.
00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:29.360
I I didn't realize that that was going to be the best part.
00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:34.800
Um, because I didn't know what I was doing this for.
00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:53.199
And now that I'm kind of free of it, other than you know, like the occasional podcast conversation like we're having right now, um, like I'm focusing on the things that I would have been focusing on had none of this happened.
00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:57.039
You know, I'm newly engaged, uh, my son is amazing.
00:02:57.199 --> 00:03:01.680
Um and uh I read a quote the other day that really stuck with me.
00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:08.159
It's like, spend your money on things that money should be spent on, and spend your time on things that money can't be spent on.
00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:10.800
So like I'm I'm focusing on the latter.
00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:11.759
Yes.
00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:12.960
Yes.
00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:14.800
It's kind of crazy.
00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:23.439
Uh life has a funny way of kind of determining our path for us, despite whatever plans we make.
00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:28.080
Uh I've another quote I've heard is you want to make God laugh, make plans.
00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:28.879
Yeah, you know?
00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:38.159
Yeah, not to get deeply into religion, but like I've kind of severed ties with with whatever, and I've just kind of accepted that what is will be.
00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:41.439
You kind of have to when you're in this situation.
00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:52.719
And um what I'm what I'm happy about is that I am no longer uh accustomed to feeling suffering every day.
00:03:52.879 --> 00:04:03.599
And I feel like carrying this record was it was a it was a burden that I I just had with me for a while.
00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:06.879
I mean, we it took way too long to put this thing out.
00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:08.800
Like way, way too long.
00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:12.400
I I thought we were gonna be like a few months and done.
00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:14.240
We are two and a half years in.
00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:17.680
And like I I'm just I'm just glad it's done.
00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:26.079
And a lot of that has to do with me and my perfectionism, and you know, but like I'm just glad it's over.
00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:27.360
Yeah.
00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:29.600
So very freeing.
00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:32.079
What was more therapeutic?
00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:39.040
Was it the process of like putting these tracks down or getting it out in the world?
00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:48.399
I wouldn't me getting it out into the world wouldn't have felt therapeutic had I not done the album.
00:04:49.040 --> 00:05:04.800
Um I needed a thing or place or I mean I mean, when this happens to people, most people turn to religion, they turn to all sorts of things.
00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:07.839
That's that was not for me.
00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:12.639
Um so I needed to to focus it somewhere.
00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:25.360
And instinctively, because you know, it's it's it's part of when you're obsessed with music, or if you're obsessed with drawing, or obsessed with whatever it is that you're obsessed with, that becomes your instinct.
00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:36.800
So instinctively, after everything happened and I was losing my mind, I instinctively was like, I need to put this all into a piece of music.
00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:50.480
And um, so had I not and had I not had the support and everybody helped me um create this, it would have been much harder.
00:05:50.639 --> 00:06:08.560
But I I would say going back to your original question, making the album was the therapy, but releasing the album is is I finally feel like I can take the next chapter of my life, like I can move forward.
00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:13.519
Nothing really changes, but I can move I can move forward.
00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:20.079
Dude, that is such a fair assessment, and honestly, a very candid one.
00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:22.399
And and I really enjoy that.
00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:30.079
You know, I was talking to you before we pressed record about some of the quotes that you've put out into the world that I really enjoy.
00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:36.639
And one of them is everyone writes about the explosion, nobody writes about the smoke.
00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:41.120
That's a line from your recent mundane interview, and it really jumped out at me.
00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:51.600
You deliberately chose not to make Hannah a traditional memorial to your wife, but instead to explore what happens after the loss.
00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:56.000
Why was the aftermath the story that you needed to tell?
00:06:56.720 --> 00:07:12.079
Because when Hannah died, I it really put into perspective I mean, I've heard people use the term ego death so many times in my life.
00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:23.600
I experienced whatever that form of ego death was, and who was I to tell Hannah's story?
00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:24.240
Right.
00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:25.680
Who am I?
00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:30.000
You know, I knew I Hannah and I were together for nine years.
00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:34.000
She was 33 when she passed away, you know.
00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:41.040
I nothing I could have written could have brought her back to life.
00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:51.920
And it felt inappropriate for me to think that I have the right to do that, you know what I mean?
00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:58.319
Um I I don't know, you know, it's it's it's it's a weird, it's a weird gray area.
00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:10.160
And also just at the time, I when when I when this first and this idea first came into mind, I was so I didn't even want to think about Hannah.
00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:23.839
Like I it like you know, it it's it was very hard because I was writing about all this stuff, but I I I I was trying to escape in every single way possible from my own head.
00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:28.319
So, you know, this everyone writes about the smoke, so the explosion.
00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:46.000
What I was trying to say is, you know, like in my experience, a lot of artists they'll write this big epic ballad about this amazing, incredible, or horrible moment in time, and it'll be the whole thing, and it's like, well, what about after?
00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:46.399
Right.
00:08:46.720 --> 00:09:05.919
Like, because for me, the the the after is the part that changed my life, really, you know, where where I started really looking at myself differently and and thinking differently and just where the the the shifts started to happen.
00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:27.679
You know, I I I I kind of learned along the way that I'm too stupid to really truly have any opinion about other people or about the grand scheme of things in life because I'm just a regular person.
00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:47.600
And to think that I have uh any right or or superiority or intellectual or artistic need to do that, I I think that's a bunch of bullshit, and that's I I it would be inauthentic of me to do so.
00:09:48.000 --> 00:10:09.039
Yeah, and I I again I want to give you your props and your flowers for being so candid about that because I imagine that it is a real challenge to kind of try and preserve somebody's memory without feeling like you're living inside or trapped by the memory, if that makes sense.
00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:13.440
I mean, my my life was already trapped by the memory.
00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:20.159
I I mean, I look I in in in when I originally was writing this record, I every single time I look at my son, I see my wife.
00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:21.679
You know what, you know what I mean?
00:10:21.759 --> 00:11:00.639
I and also like when something like what what people don't see, what the biggest thing that people don't know when something like this happens to you and it happens in such a tragic way it's the people that are closest to you that don't get it and will just like change your life for you without your permission, because you are so the concept of of having any self-governance or or having any opinion about anything is it's gone, it's just it just disappears.
00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:07.519
So, you know, I I I was I was in a I was in a box writing about the box that I was in.
00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:08.559
Yeah.
00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:24.799
Well, you've mentioned your son a few times, and I imagine going through something like that probably redefined you as a person, obviously, and your role as a father on the grand scheme of things.
00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:37.759
Probably just obviously shock and you know, um, but Bobby, the song, feels like the emotional centerpiece of the album.
00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:44.159
You described it as a song you weren't right really writing for yourself, but for him.
00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:55.519
How different was the songwriting process when you knew you were creating something Bobby could potentially listen to years from now and learn something about his mother through?
00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.639
It was completely different than the other songs.
00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:08.399
Um that was a song that I knew I I knew I had to write a song for Bobby.
00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:19.120
I other otherwise the album would have felt not incomplete, but like just there's a fundamental missing component here, you know.
00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:22.240
But I didn't want to do it in any kind of cringy way.
00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:32.480
I just know I just knew it had to be beautiful and it had to be honest and it had to be real, and I had to say I I couldn't I couldn't make up a bunch of stuff that he wouldn't believe, or you know.
00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:39.360
So smartest thing I could possibly do was hit up who hit up the most talented person I know.
00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:41.840
And I'll there you go, Alejandro.
00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:46.720
And I was, and you I just said I I saw one of Alejandro's riffs.
00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:48.799
I mean, I've been following Alejandro forever.
00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:53.440
I just I just found an old riff and I was like, dude, can you just play that?
00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:54.879
And he was like, Yeah.
00:12:55.039 --> 00:13:00.000
I wrote the whole song to that, and that was it.
00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:07.600
And and what I what I really kept that song to is I didn't want to go into too much detail.
00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:23.200
You know, I just what I'm trying to convey in that song to my son isn't necessarily isn't the like the only thing very obviously is is like that that Hannah and myself will always love him.
00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:32.080
But um and so many people think that song is a tribute to Hannah, and I guess in their perspective it is, but it's really for my son.
00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:52.720
What what I'm trying to say to Bobby is that like if he's ever in a position in life where he's questioning like whether it's worth the risk to love somebody or something because of circumstance or because uh it may change things.
00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:56.639
Like, look at my story, look at what happened to your dad.
00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:00.399
We love the shit out of you, and we'll always will.
00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:07.759
And like I I hope this song if he listens to it, he'll he'll you know, take a chance on love.
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:20.960
When you heard the finished product with all of Hondo's parts and all of your stuff mixed together, um did it change the emotional meaning of the song for you?
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:29.440
Uh it was like I I at the time I was so numb still.
00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:33.039
I was still I was still very ice, ice cold.
00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:58.639
Um, but I knew it was something because it was the first song that I had shown anybody, and I showed my parents, and they were sobbing like and and like every and then I start I started showing like friends, and when my dude friends are like stop like crying after hearing it, I'm like, oh, okay, mission accomplished, I guess.
00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:22.080
You know, I didn't I didn't I you know I that's the thing with this with this record, you know, the the the the only song, the only song, the only parts of the record where I was like, oh my fucking god, finally, was when I when I finished PTSD, because I I felt like that song was like that's um that's an Andy Gruen song, and that's like yes, right.
00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:31.440
And the end of the sun and the moon, that big, that big chorus at the end, that felt like, wow, holy shit, we made that.
00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:42.720
Like, wow, you know, that that that was those those are like the two moments in the record where out of my numbness, while we were making it, I was like, whoa, like that's that sounds crazy.
00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:52.639
One of the things I'm really enjoying so far as we're having this conversation is we're getting into some deep, weighty, heavy shit, but we're still able to laugh.
00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:54.799
And I think you gotta laugh.
00:15:55.039 --> 00:16:02.720
I think that is like a good indication of the headspace that you're in right now, having this out in the world.
00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:05.120
And I don't think that's coincidental at all.
00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:14.559
And I'm I'm no psychiatrist and I'm not trying to play an armchair one, but I do think this is very indicative of of where you're at right now.
00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:20.399
The song Fear of Flying takes the idea and kind of takes it into another direction.
00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:27.440
You described the song um as being about becoming afraid to lose things once you actually have something to lose.
00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:37.120
And you know, kind of talking about having this out in the world, along with the nightmares and guilt associated with experiencing joy again.
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:43.279
What did you have to confront yourself to write that song to put you where you're at right now?
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:51.039
So, so so that song is really interesting because like that hook, I've actually had that hook for a while.
00:16:51.200 --> 00:17:03.039
The yeah, I had this recurring dream, but like I repurposed that song because when Hannah died, I had not the dreams that I explained in the song.
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:07.440
I had, and I will not, that's one thing that I will not discuss.
00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:16.240
I had the most horrible, vivid, recurring nightmares every single night for about nine and a half, ten months.
00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:18.480
Like it was just bad.
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:19.359
It was bad.
00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:25.119
I was waking up screaming and sweating and crying and pissed the bed a couple times.
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:25.839
It was just bad.
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:28.799
PTSD is no joke, dude.
00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:34.079
Like, so I wanted to write a song about dreams.
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:45.039
But at that point, when I realized like I wanted I wanted to write a song about dreams, I was already kind of like I'm ready to be done feeling like this, you know?
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:58.720
And it made me realize like one of the funniest things, and and and the and I actually like started writing this song because I was I was talking to Clay, Arnie Woods, who helped who helped me write a bunch of the songs on the record.
00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:18.400
And uh I had just come back on a on a trip to LA or something, and I and I and I was I was getting off the plane and I was just remembering something that I used to talk about with my therapist, uh that like when you got when when there's nothing to lose, you know, like you'll get on an airplane, you'll jump out of a plane, you know.
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:19.920
It doesn't matter.
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:23.440
When I skydiving when I was a kid, I I love that.
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:24.319
Like that's crazy.
00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:30.240
Now, think about Bobby, like it's it's just it's just different.
00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:36.000
So, like, you know, there's a period of time like after Hannah died where like that reckless feeling, it totally came back.
00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:39.279
Because while when I was married, I was terrified of flying.
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.599
Oh my God, I couldn't travel anywhere.
00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:48.799
And then it disappeared, and then I realized like I wanted to write a song about the dreams.
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:58.160
And then wait a second, I just got back on from this flight flight from LA, and I'm feeling like that flight, that flight back was like kind of scary.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:04.319
Because like it was before I had I had asked my my girlfriend at the time to to marry me.
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:06.960
Um, thank whoever for her.
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:10.000
She's uh what you would call a godsend.
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:13.519
She's basically the biggest supporter on this record.
00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:22.319
Um, but I realized like that flight, like, holy shit, like I I felt, I felt like I had something to lose.
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.119
And it and it made and it it's like weird.
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:28.480
It's like a bad feeling, but it's also like a good, a good feeling.
00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:56.079
So so that whole song became kind of like I'm so ready to be free of this, but it keeps pulling me back in because you get addicted to the feeling of pain and suffering and redundancy and you just and pity and all the shit you gotta deal with when this happens to you, when the other side is just so much better.
00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:57.119
Like, yeah.
00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:02.160
Well, once you break through that wall, dude, it's just like, oh my god.
00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:08.799
You know, and I'm not gonna dredge up anything about the dreams, just more of a commentary.
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:16.960
And for sure, I it's a it's a weird thing because I think it happens in grief a lot.
00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:24.640
And I despite my God quote earlier, I am as spiritually ambiguous as you can get.
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:27.279
I don't know what the fuck I believe, you know.
00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:31.440
You know, I think maybe there's something, I don't know.
00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:43.519
But I would say I was very religious before this rec before everything happened, and then it became then it became inept, and now I just think that everyone's too stupid.
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:45.759
So stop wasting your time thinking about it.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:48.880
No, but everyone's a fucking idiot.
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:53.279
Like, just like we're all we all have assholes, we all shit out of our assholes.
00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:55.920
Yep, you know, like shut up.
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:03.119
Like but the thing, the thing about the dreams Andy Grown for president, but yeah, but yeah, absolutely 100%.
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:20.880
Um the thing about the dreams thing is I know when I've experienced moments of grief or the moment of somebody passing, that is where they come to me, is in my sleep more frequently than not.
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:28.240
And it's almost like finishing conversations that I never got to finish why these people were alive or with us.
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.519
And it can be a haunting thing.
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:34.720
And you know, you you cited the BTSD part of it.
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:36.799
It's it's legit, man.
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:42.240
If people don't take that as seriously as they probably should.
00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:43.920
No, no.
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:48.480
I mean, I mean, if Bobby wasn't, I mean, truth, this is just objectively true.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:52.400
If Bobby was not born, I would would a hundred percent be dead.
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:53.759
Like, not even a question.
00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:55.759
So I felt very trapped in a way.
00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:59.759
I wish my dreams about Hannah were positive in any way.
00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:14.400
I have not had a single positive dream ever about Hannah, which is like really sad.
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:16.079
I didn't get to say goodbye.
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:20.319
Like, you know, like I forget what her voice sounds like sometimes.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:22.559
I for I forget, I forget.
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:37.200
Someone else asked me this the the a question in in an interview, but I was like, but the right before the interview, I was like looking through phones, uh, looking through my phone of pictures of that time, and I don't even recognize that person.
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:39.359
I have no idea.
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:47.920
Someone some people will tell me about an I I attended an event or did something or said something or had a belief, and I'm just like, what?
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:53.279
It's it's like my brain biochemically just changed.
00:22:53.599 --> 00:23:01.839
Do you think that that's also a byproduct of just time passing and the compartmentalization of different seasons of life as well?
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:24.720
You know, you kind of have the grief side of things going on one path, but you also have the aging side of life going on another path because I, you know, I kind of recall that in my own life where I'm just like, you know, I don't remember that version of myself, let alone anybody that was in that fucking part of my life where that version of myself existed.
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:29.599
You know, so do you think you kind of got the double whammy with both things happening at the same time?
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:43.440
You know, I want to say yes, but I don't think I I don't think I did, you know, because I because I I'll put it to you this way most people I know, they still they still have moments where they s where they like feel like a kid.
00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:46.160
Like, you know, like you feel like you're 13 again.
00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:48.079
I don't have those moments anymore.
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.079
The day Hannah died was the day that I became 32 years old.
00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:54.559
And I've been 32 years old since that day.
00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:59.359
I don't experience that youthful feeling anymore.
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.920
I really try to, and there's glimpses, there's glimpses of it.
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:10.480
I can I can look back at my 16-year-old self and be like, wow, that kid's a stupid idiot.
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:10.880
Right.
00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:11.680
No question.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:23.039
I can look back at my 25-year-old self and while I'll be like, wow, that guy's a stupid idiot, just by objectively looking at the things that I did or things that I thought or things that I believed.
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:33.759
But I can't look back at my 32-year-old self and like remember what my marriage felt like.
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:41.039
Or or I I don't really remember the conversations that I had with Hannah.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:44.319
I don't remember like the arguments that we had.
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.480
I don't remember Bobby's first six months of life.
00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:49.920
I don't really remember.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:25:09.200
And I'll and bits and pieces come back, but it's really like when something like this happens, you you the whole world continues to move, and your world just stops.
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:10.000
Right.
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:32.400
And you just see everybody else like what while after this happened, I saw like divorces and I saw my friends also having children more children, and I'm watching families grow, and I'm watching families fall apart, and I'm like, I'm just like sitting in my basement writing this album, just like, what the hell is happening?
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:33.119
You know?
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:37.200
So it you you kind of feel like an alien.
00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:40.720
That that's the easy, you know, you feel like you don't belong here.
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:55.519
No, that's that's totally valid and fair because I I think as humans, when we go through these things, one of the things you mentioned was some of the people that were closest to you couldn't conceptualize what you were going through at the time.
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:57.680
And it and it it is that is so true.
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:07.680
Like sometimes it takes an ambiguous third party that doesn't even know you to recognize what you're going through more than the people that you see every single day sometimes.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:19.519
The moment that I that I knew something was different was uh it was right after Hannah died, and I had a bunch of friends and family over because that's what Jews do.
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:33.920
We have the Shiva, and you know, and I was chain smoking cigarettes in my backyard, and I saw uh, and there were so many people, and I felt like I was just talking to I don't know what I was hallucinating out of my mind.
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:54.400
And one of my friends who was in the military, hardcore, we start talking, and I'm like, everything this guy's saying makes sense, and I'm like, oh shit, like it was it was at that moment I'm like, oh no, dude.
00:26:54.880 --> 00:27:05.680
And yeah, that's kind of when it really hit that like something happened internally in my head.
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:06.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:15.519
Because the people that are closest to you sometimes overly try and find a commonality with what you're going through, and sometimes it can go to the case of the colour.
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:20.720
Solution after solution after solution after solution.
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:38.720
When when you're grieving, all you need is witnesses, you just need people to recognize that you exist because, like, yeah, the person died, but like chances are the person closest to that person also felt like they died.
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:48.720
Like it's it's proven, like when it happens to a woman, they feel biologically connected to the child.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:53.359
Men do not have that feeling.
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:55.519
A widower does not have that feeling.
00:27:55.599 --> 00:28:01.279
So when I looked at Bobby, I was terrified of him for a long time.
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:05.839
Now, now he's my he's he's he's my twin, he's my boy.
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:07.440
I I love that kid.
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:12.559
Uh but like I could I couldn't I couldn't look at him for a while.
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:22.640
It was very hard, and I will regret that for the rest of my life because he was literally the cutest kid ever that I've ever seen in my life, you know.
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:33.039
And um goes though you know, it's hard to kind of place where your mindset goes creatively in a situation like this.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:40.400
You know, I've I've gone through a divorce and I've uh again playing armchair psychiatrist.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:56.559
One of the things that I've talked to other friends that have either kind of gone through similar similar situations as yourself or as myself going through a divorce is you almost develop three separate personalities, like the id, the ego, the superego version of yourself.
00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:09.920
There's the there's the person that's that's mourning the thing that happened, there's the person that's like almost manic and overreacting to everything that happened, and then there's the person that finally makes peace with everything that happened.
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:16.799
And those three different versions can show up unexpectedly at any point in time.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:24.240
I remember that first year I was going through my divorce, I was just like, holy fuck, what version of Mike is gonna wake up today?
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:28.640
Which one is it gonna be the guy that's going to the bar saying, woo-hoo, I'm single again?
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:34.720
Or is it gonna be the guy that wants to stay in bed all day because he feels like he's failed his kids, you know?
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:43.519
And and that same person has to wake up and go to their job so that they can provide for their family.
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:51.920
And you know, in my situation, I was so dependent on Hannah, I didn't know anything about babies.
00:29:52.079 --> 00:30:02.640
I nothing, you know, but like she it really these if anything, like these last what's the easiest way to say this?
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:13.440
But now it's hard for I it's hard for I don't really regret anything that's ever happened to me because like I I don't have control of anything, but like Hannah turned me into a man.
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:26.640
I I was a little boy before, and she helped me become a man and this event might have put an extra period on that.
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:31.039
Like this event, this event turned me into an old man.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:46.559
Um you know, you know, my my the my my fiance, she she she I don't need anybody to kick my ass or you know, get me into gear anymore.
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:52.079
I I just need a witness, someone who's there for me, someone who understands it.
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:54.480
She understands grief in her own way, you know.
00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:56.480
Like, like yeah.
00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:02.240
I don't know why I went off on that tangent, but but I I I felt I felt like it was poignant when I first started saying it.
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:05.680
Dude, this is this is fantastic, honestly.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:18.480
You know, getting back to the album, you know, there's songs like PTSD, My Basement and Cursed, and my personal favorite track on the album is concrete so far, and just getting getting into it right now.
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:27.119
Um you've pushed back on the idea that grief happens in clean stages, and that's a lot of what we've been talking about just now.
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:36.160
When you look at the 10 tracks in totality, do you see an emotional narrative that you couldn't necessarily see when you were writing it?
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:44.240
I I knew the track order before before like we finished the record, you know.
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.000
Uh it starts at concrete.
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:56.160
Concrete um is my disassociation from my older self and my disassociation with God.
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:05.519
Safe is my panic song, where I just wanted to I I I literally I'm very literal.
00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:08.160
I I I want to feel safe again.
00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:10.000
Like that's what I was trying to say.
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:15.440
I and I even say in my verse, you know, I recognize that I'm just a pawn, I have no control over anything.
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:23.200
And I ended that song with Arnie with my buddy Clay screaming his face off, saying, I want to get out of this fucking house, because like I I did.
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:29.519
You know, glue is about how we can't how things get stuck to you no matter.
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:35.440
I can't say in the hook, I don't want to love you anymore, but I I I do, you know?
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:39.839
And then PTSD, it's what was happening.
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:45.839
Cursed is as an interlude, kind of feels like I'm I at the time I felt like I was cursed.
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:54.240
Like I felt like that was my life, and then the lighter side of the record starts to appear.
00:32:54.400 --> 00:33:01.519
Like my basement is more it's more of like a shoegazy feel.
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:30.000
It's dark, especially lyrically, but like it's it's there's there's a little hope in there, and Turn to Stone is a lot more reflective, and then Bobby is Bobby, and then Fear of Flying is really trying to get out of there, and then the sun and the moon is kind of I wanted that to be one giant crescendo into that one line, our love is all but dead and gone, you know, like and and that's like that, you know.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:46.400
I wanted the the record to end with you know noises from nature, you know, kind of explaining like at the end of it, we all we all go, but the love lives on.
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:58.640
One thing that comes up frequently on my show is this modern era of music that we're sitting in and how everything is genre fluid anymore.
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:23.679
Like, if you look at the genre bender, yeah, if you look at you look at genre blending, the only benefit, or it's not the only benefit, but the the biggest silver lining of the streaming services is the fact that the guardrails are off now, and an artist doesn't have to paint themselves in a corner to be successful, they can kind of lean into all of their influences.
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:37.360
You've talked about being influenced by songwriters like Damian Rice, he's one of my favorites, Elliot Smith, Matt Nathanson, and Springsteen before some of the emo and alternative bands that people might associate with your sound at large.
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:45.519
My advice to anybody that's listening to this or watching this is don't judge this album on one song.
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:52.960
Try and listen to the collective to kind of experience the whole journey journey as far as genres go.
00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:59.039
Um, you've even described yourself as a singer-songwriter who does it a bit more aggressively as well.
00:34:59.280 --> 00:34:59.599
Yeah.
00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:11.039
Where do you personally draw the line between singer-songwriter, alternative and emo, and what do you think of as far as genre whenever you're creating?
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:17.840
It's kind of why like I've had so many people ask me, like, why don't I just come up with like a moniker or like a band name or whatever?
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:19.360
It's like, because that's bullshit.
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:20.639
That's not me, you know.
00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:21.280
I agree.
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:29.280
Um I I think I think all of it I view the type of music that I make.
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:33.199
You know, I genre blending, I've been genre blending for 17 years.
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:44.079
Yeah, you know, I I I had I I I had one band, we we put out like uh emo meets dubstep, and that stuff, that thing exploded on SoundCloud.
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:46.400
It's just crazy, it's just stupid.
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:49.440
Everyone's been making music forever, you know what I mean?
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:57.360
Like, like people use those words and they've they fetishise these words until they mean nothing anymore.
00:35:57.519 --> 00:35:58.400
Right, you know?
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:08.000
Um, so like I view myself as a storyteller, view myself as a singer-songwriter.
00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:14.320
So when someone asks, like, how they would approach my album, I'm telling a story.
00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:16.960
I'm saying exactly what happened.
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:27.039
If you if you only listen to one song, you're you're only gonna get one aspect of the story and probably think one part of I of who I am.
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:39.440
And I could have gone way more experimental if I really wanted to, but I wanted to keep this album very tasteful, you know, you know, very listenable.
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:51.039
Um, I didn't I didn't want to like push the lines too much, but you know, even though it it's an alternative record, I could argue that every song is sonically different.
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:51.840
It is.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:54.239
I I I I I'm 100%.
00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:57.679
I'm surprised more people haven't like approached me about it.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:08.239
Like, like glue like glue is a it's a synth song, and then and then my basement is way off, and the sun and the moon is a totally different thing.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:19.519
It's like, yeah, there's some rock songs on there, but like there's a song with screaming, there's a song, there's a song with strings, like you know, it's it's just kind of all over the place.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:31.920
So like I think, and I've said this in another interview, like people get the people that get caught up on genre, it's like it's like filing police work after you've already committed the crime.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.239
It's the shit that like nobody wants to do.
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:37.679
Like people care about what actually happened.
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:40.960
Like, no one, like, who cares what you call it?
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:48.079
It's it's it's about the emotion that it's supposed to bring out of you, and it's about the story that's being told.
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:50.239
I mean, I grew up listening.
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:54.400
My dad used to sing me Thunder Road by Bruce Springsteen as a lullaby when I was a kid.
00:37:54.559 --> 00:38:00.960
I grew up hearing about these great songwriters like Bob Dillon and Bruce Springsteen and Tom Waits and all these guys.
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:08.960
And, you know, like I look at I look at the music today, and I've been on both sides of the aisle.
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:19.599
Like I've been in AR, and I've I've been a manager, and I've been an artist, and I've I've been on I work in music and a preservation right now in a totally different space.
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:22.639
And it's like I've been on every side you can imagine.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:33.360
And it's kind of like the music, there's so much music today, but it's very rare where I where I encounter a record where it's like these guys are saying something.
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:42.400
Right, you know, I I hear a lot of noise, but I don't hear anyone saying something.
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:45.440
I got so bummed, I'll tell you this.
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:46.960
I got so bummed.
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:51.280
I put out Bobby, and that song means the world to me.
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:56.880
And I have no disrespect to whoever, you know, it's I have no beef with anybody that I don't personally know.
00:38:56.960 --> 00:38:58.400
I don't know Phoebe Bridgers.
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:04.719
But then she put out a song called Bobby, and it's about Bo fucking Burnham, and and that's not even his fucking name.
00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:08.559
And like, you you know, like, and that's a hit song.
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:09.519
And look, I get it.
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:11.280
Phoebe's amazingly talented.
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:13.679
I'm way less talented than Phoebe Bridgers.
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:15.599
I I can happily admit that.
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:22.320
But it's but it's also like, fuck man, that's my song title, like about my son.
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:24.960
Like, let me let me have that moment.
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:33.039
And so, like, I guess, and like going back to my influences, I listened to everything.
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:35.440
I think most musicians do, bro.
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:41.440
If you saw my like most recent two, I'll go through, I'll go through with you right now.
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:58.800
I mean, I'm listening to Japanese K-pop, and I got Orchid, and then I got Black Sabbath, and then I got Duskus and the spill canvas and turnstile, and uh, oh yeah, here's uh I got Wu-Tang clan.
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:01.360
Like, I'm all over, I'm all over the place, you know?
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:03.280
But that's because I love music.
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:19.920
Yes, and I feel like it's really silly to put people in a box because then what when when when when listeners put artists in boxes, people forget that like artists need validation, they need it, they they live off of it, they breathe it.
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:30.400
So when you put so whatever, I I I mean, some people use it as like marketing tactics, but like when you put an artist that you really like in a box, chances are they're gonna do that thing.
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:31.119
Yeah.
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:31.840
Yeah.
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:37.119
And if they do that thing and it's not their thing, it's probably gonna sound like shit.
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:45.920
And then you're gonna get mad at that artist for sounding like shit, for trying to do the thing that you asked them to do instead of doing it the way that they wanted them to do it.
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:46.880
And 100%.
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:50.559
That was the most important thing about this whole thing.
00:40:50.880 --> 00:41:17.119
I I'm deeply, deeply in the red, but I created a major record, a major label record by myself, with my own money, with my own people, with my own voice, without having anybody, anybody tell me what I can or cannot do, marketed it in the exact way that I wanted to do it, released it in the way that I wanted to do it.
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:18.960
Was I encouraged to do TikToks?
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:19.599
Yes.
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:22.800
Was I encouraged to do all the stupid stuff you don't want to do?
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:23.679
Yes.
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:26.559
Do I care about being a rock star?
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:27.280
No.
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:28.480
Some people might.
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:30.559
So you might want to do the other two things.
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:39.519
But other than that, it was liberating to just put out music without anybody's fingerprints on it.
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:39.760
Yeah.
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:40.719
Just mine.
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:48.159
And I feel like that is an authentic story that more people should tell.
00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:53.760
You know, a lot of people have been asking me like, is there, do I have any message with this record?
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:56.000
I think my message is very clearly obvious.
00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:58.159
Like, my wife passed away and I wrote about it.
00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:14.239
But like, after having so many of these conversations, I think my message is like, I don't care how you do it, but if you're gonna put out a piece of music, really make it your own and really make it about something.
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:22.400
Because if you don't, I think you're doing a disservice to yourself, not to your fans, not to your money.
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:23.840
I know you gotta pay bills.
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:25.840
Music is not the best way to pay bills.
00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:28.159
Hate to break this to you, it's just not.
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:31.599
But like, if you want to, got do what you gotta do.
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:37.280
But like, if you really want to make something, do it on your own terms and fuck everybody else.
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:40.239
Yes, dude, that is so amazing.
00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:54.239
I, you know, and one thing that I'm gonna kind of throw out there as like an objective third party here is there is an intertwined string and thread throughout the whole album.
00:42:54.400 --> 00:43:07.760
No matter what the genre you are kind of playing into, like you are the thread, and that is the best thing that you can have or ask of an artist is let them be the thread.
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:11.199
Because we've all seen it, like you said, a million times.
00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:38.480
An artist has a song that's a hit that's normally not in their wheelhouse, and then every fucking album that comes after that is a replication or an attempt at a replication of that hit, and that artist goes from being somebody you absolutely love for being who they authentically are to being who the industry wants them to be, and it's gross.
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:41.760
It went, Pete.
00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:43.599
You said it yourself.
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:49.920
I mean, the only thing that no one else can replicate is you.
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:55.760
Yeah, it's your strong, it's your strongest marketing asset, it's your strong strongest marketing asset.
00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:59.760
The only thing that they can't copy is you and your story and who you are.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.760
They can copy your sound, your image, your likeness, your everything.
00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:05.280
They cannot copy you.
00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:06.000
Yes.
00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:06.480
Yes.
00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:07.679
It'll be you.
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:08.719
Yes.
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:14.880
Well, I think it goes without saying you've brought some pretty significant voices to the record.
00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:25.920
You know, Alejandro that we talked about, Alejandro Aronda, uh, under oaths, Aaron Gillespie, uh, Arnie Woods, Elijah Gibb all appear on the album.
00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:35.199
What happens when you hand something this personal to another artist and essentially say, here, this is yours to interpret now.
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:41.039
Did any of those collaborations change how you heard your own songs on the finished product?
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:42.880
No.
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:45.440
No.
00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:55.679
Um Aaron's was the only feature that I didn't write, but he kind of wrote it exactly how I hoped.
00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:56.320
Yeah.
00:44:56.639 --> 00:44:59.519
So no.
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:08.719
You know, they all like Eli has an amazing voice.
00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:11.119
I wrote a part, knew he'd kill it.
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:17.039
Uh Clay, uh Arnie, who helped me on a lot of the record.
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:23.840
Uh I wrote that screaming part, and I dude's got vocals like a motherfucker.
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:26.480
Um, I knew he'd just ripped that.
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:30.159
Um Alejandro's Alejandro.
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:31.280
Yeah, like no.
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:40.320
You know, another aspect that I've brought up on the show many times, and this is just comes from my own past life of being a musician.
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:44.000
I'm sure you kind of deducted that throughout our conversation.
00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:45.039
Absolutely.
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:54.960
But I remember every time an album would drop, and this is taking subject matter of the album out of the equation.
00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:57.360
I'm just talking about the album itself.
00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:01.119
By the time the album would drop, I was pretty much over it.
00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:07.679
I was ready to purge myself and march into my next creative endeavor.
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:10.000
And like, yes, what's next?
00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:12.559
You know, kind of aspect of it.
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:28.559
Thinking about the fact that the album dropped last week, who's Andy Gruen today that maybe Andy, who started writing this album, couldn't have imagined becoming, both as a person and artistically?
00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:32.400
Um, I think I'm fundamentally different.
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:38.800
Um I think a lot of people, if you ask, you know me, will tell you the same.
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:49.760
Um I'm definitely artistically, um I'm a lot more uh confident.
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:58.880
It's nice that like I don't really I don't really give a shit what happens with this record if nothing happens to it, but like I know what I made.
00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:00.079
It's fine.
00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:04.000
People can people can like it or not, like I know what I made.
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:25.519
Um as a person, you know, now I'm a person um with a lot more boundaries, healthy boundaries, um that has relearned how to speak for himself, not only musically.
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:35.119
Um I'm a person that keeps to himself a lot more, and I keep my circle a lot smaller.
00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:57.599
Um and I think I have a lot more agency over myself, and most importantly, I'm a hell of a lot better of a father and and assumed-to-be husband than I was before, just because I'm I'm I'm I'm a grown-up now.
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:00.960
I love that, brother.
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:03.920
I have really enjoyed this conversation.
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:08.000
I am now to call you just super proud to call you a friend.
00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:10.880
I am proud of everything that you've put forth.
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:14.159
Um, and I just met you an hour ago, not quite.
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:17.840
Um this is such a great chat.
00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:40.239
My closing question that I ask every guest that does the show, uh, because I appreciate different perspectives, but given everything that you've gone through, and you've gone through some pretty heavy stuff up to the release of this album, what's advice that you would give other people for making the world a better place tomorrow than what it is today through your eyes?
00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:45.440
Nobody has enemies, it's all made up in your head.
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:52.719
And it's unfair to make judgments of people before you know them.
00:48:53.440 --> 00:49:00.000
And that no matter what happens to you, love is the answer.
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:01.440
Hell yes.
00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:02.800
Hell yes.
00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:07.039
Andy, tell everybody where they can find you and your music online, my friend.
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:11.440
Uh, you can find me on primarily uh on Spotify.
00:49:11.599 --> 00:49:16.880
You can download my whole album for free on Bandcamp because I do not care.
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:26.800
Um and uh if you want to find me on socials, I I I tend to hide over on Instagram and you know, I I chill over there.
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:34.000
Um, and uh what my YouTube has a lot of really cool music videos if you want to check those out too.
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:37.599
So it's it's all Andy Gruin, A-N-D-Y-G-R-U-H-I-N.
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:38.880
I'm the only one on the planet.
00:49:39.039 --> 00:49:40.719
So I love it, dude.
00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:47.519
I again just to repeat myself for the the sake of driving the point home, I have really enjoyed this conversation.
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:49.920
Super proud to call you a friend now.
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:51.920
Thank you so much for doing the show, brother.
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.000
The world's a much better place with you and it.
00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:57.119
I I appreciate that, and it's it's been a pleasure.
00:49:57.199 --> 00:49:58.400
Thank you for having me off.
