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You're listening to Built to Convert, the podcast where growth-minded marketers, founders, and creators come to level up.
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No hype, no guesswork, just bold insights that drive results.
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Let's go.
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Welcome to Built to Convert, a podcast where we explore how strategy, analytics, and creativity come together to drive meaningful growth.
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I'm your host, Tyler Lane, founder of Session Interactive.
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Today we are continuing our credit union series with a conversation focused on real on the real challenge facing financial institutions right now.
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When products look the same, rates are competitive everywhere, and fintech competition keeps increasing.
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How do you build preference, loyalty, and measurable growth growth?
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To unpack that, I'm joined by Michael Murdoch, AVP of Marketing at University Credit Union in Los Angeles.
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This episode is brought to you by Session Interactive, the performance marketing agency for our financial institutions, serious about growth.
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We partner with credit unions, banks, and financial brands to strengthen SEO, paid media analytics, and conversion strategy.
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So marketing performance ties directly to funded accounts, qualified members, and long-term value.
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If your team needs sharper data, stronger acquisition strategy, or clearer attribution in an increasingly competitive landscape, visit sessioninteractive.com.
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All right, so guys, Michael Murdoch is the AVP of marketing at University Credit Union, one of the leading credit unions in serving Southern California.
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In his role, he oversees brand acquisition strategies and the evolution of UCU's marketing approach and environment where rates and financial products are often often create functional parity across institutions.
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Today we're going to explore how mission-driven credit union competes in a commoditized marketplace, how acquisition is measured beyond vanity metrics, and what really means to evolve from a transactional institution into a lifestyle-oriented brand without losing commercial discipline.
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Michael, great to have you on.
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Appreciate your time.
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Thank you very much, Tyler.
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I'm looking forward to chatting with you.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So I mentioned before we hit record here, I kind of like to establish a little bit of um expanded credibility.
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You've been in the space for quite some time now.
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Um, what led you into financial services, in particular marketing, and then specifically in the credit union space?
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What was the initial um area or opportunity that gravitated towards you?
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And I love this question because it's always, you know, I wanted to be a firefighter when I grew up.
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And then 20 years later, I had no idea that I would be this immersed in the credit union ecosystem.
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I just did not think it would happen.
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So this is during the unsettling times of 2008.
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I was already in marketing, but not in the finance scope or space, and I was let go, which at the time I was young enough to think, oh, this is the end of the world, and I'll never get another job.
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I'm going to work at a gas station tomorrow.
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I've been a credit union member my whole life.
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I couldn't tell you what the difference was way back then.
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I thought they were the same thing, but I knew there was something special.
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And I saw a credit union was hiring in the Portland, Oregon area.
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I thought, why not?
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I'll throw my hat in the ring.
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I don't know what I'm doing, but I know marketing.
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And before I knew it, I was hired.
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It didn't take long, Tyler, before I started noticing things like financial education, uh, the way that members were treated and spoken of differently.
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You know, as I've been there longer, I know that some of that stuff is old hat and it needs refreshing and it gets fatigue.
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But back then, that's when I, so to speak, drank the Kool-Aid.
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Um, and it from there it was a wildfire.
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And I haven't left, left or looked back in almost 15 years now.
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But I've always been in the marketing space, but I'm a huge credit union advocate.
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I grew well outside my role and I don't seem to want to stop anytime soon.
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We talked about that too, just that that phrase that you brought up, drink the Kool-Aid.
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It's again, it's uh I feel like sometimes um I I'm like I don't, it's it's unmatched passion that we see.
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Right, right.
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You know, my me personally, I've worked in a variety of industries over the years and just and we were lucky enough to to get involved with credit unions.
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And it's like, wow, they they are seriously passionate about what they do.
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Let's uh let's unpack marketing as a whole and fairly general question here, but like what does good marketing, what was your perspective of good marketing um looks like as your your career evolved?
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You mentioned you you knew marketing, right, when you when you first applied to the the credit union gig.
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How has that evolved and your definition of that over the years?
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Yeah, for a while it was empathy.
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Um, if I can narrow it down to one word, but then I realized that even that didn't work because how am I going to empathize with somebody if I've never actually been in their shoes?
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I can sympathize, but I can't empathize.
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So then that changed.
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Then it kind of regressed to, well, not regress.
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I took a step back and I said it's all about brand personality.
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You know, how can somebody relate to my brand personality?
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And now today it's all about storytelling.
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And so there's an excellent guy out there named Andy Jan, Andy Janning, who is doing a big project on storytelling and how credit unions can better tell that story.
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Because if we're store if we're telling a story and somebody is saying, wait, what can you repeat that?
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Or I I totally relate to that.
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Or they lift an eyebrow, they're more likely to go back and revisit what you said or what you shared.
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And this isn't leading product first, it's leading personality first and empathy and sympathy first.
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So that's why I wanted to put a bow kind of on storytelling, and that's how I define it now.
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Yeah, I love that.
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And I think that's often it's it's just a it's a missed maybe opportunity in the sense to just I think you mentioned too, it's like I you didn't know the difference between banks and credit unions, right?
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That's all too common, right?
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And my mom still says, How's the bank going?
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It's like, mom, mom, come on.
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How dare you, mom?
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Stop.
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Yeah, and it's it is it's those aspects and other key differentiators, um, not necessarily always about banks, but are are are hopefully defined within a proper story.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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What uh would you say is uh different about leading marketing in a credit union versus other industries?
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I know it's been a while since you've you've been in other industries, but what would you say?
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You know, I think storytelling obviously is a unique component, but are there other key components that you can kind of hone in on that you would say were are different?
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I'm sure there are so many that I can think of that I have in my back pocket that are not coming to mind, but immediately it's knowing or being more involved with your consumer, your your member.
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I don't even want to say your men, I don't want to say your member, even this the people in the economies that you're serving in a way.
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You know, there's nothing better than um to to look at your impact report or to create an impact report or go to the GAC and speak with your legislators and just see how much as a credit union you've put back into the economy, um, the education systems or streets and roads.
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There are just so many differences when it comes to actually serving people.
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Um, whereas in some other industries, some other industries, it becomes kind of homogenized or it becomes very um white label, if you will.
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It's it's we know how to serve, and this is how it's gonna be.
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It's it's red and yellow for for fast food and for big banks, we're paying our stockholders back in New York or wherever.
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Um, so I definitely think it's the relationship, something that's more tangible anyway.
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It's the relationship that I've developed between myself and the people that we serve.
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I think that's a huge difference that I just didn't feel um in my prior life, if you will.
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And I don't know if that's for every everybody, but that's definitely something that resonates with me as far as the differentiator.
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Sure.
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Yeah, I mean, I mean I'm hearing that across the board too with other cardinals that we've been involved with and other um executives in the marketing space.
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So yeah, I think you're I think you're spot on, and and that's that's your story too.
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Um let's switch gears here a little bit.
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You know, I I always I often think, you know, selfishly on like my my position, right, around uh how I engage financial institutions.
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And when rates and core products are maybe core fairly similar um for your competition, what what would you say that differentiate um how do you differentiate yourself?
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But what what aspects of those drive acquisition?
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Um, so you can correctly differentiate to uh subsequently drive acquisition?
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I really like this question because financial products are functionally similar.
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I mean, differentiation rarely lives in the product.
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Exactly.
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In in what we serve.
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I mean, it really it's hard to make it different than what it was 10 years ago.
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It really lives in the meaning wrapped around the product.
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So I would say that when you look at, and I'm just throwing out some arbitrary examples, but these are our most common ones, I'm sure, for everybody, but checking accounts, auto loans, certificates, there's so very little structural differentiation left that consumers can rate shop in seconds.
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So if you're competing purely on product features, you're competing in a base to the bottom, for lack of a better way of saying it.
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So I like to break it up into three pieces.
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Uh, there's emotional safety, like people choose institutions they feel understand them, right?
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Um, both financially and culturally.
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Then there's identity alignment.
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Um, so members are increasingly wanting their financial institution to reflect their values.
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Um, community investment, you know, whatever that might be, we have to know what that is.
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And then uh experience memory, really.
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So the moments that matter the most are often non-transactional.
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I hear those stories are my favorite when somebody says, you know, I bought my first car here, and we say, Oh, that's awesome.
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And you look and it's 1964, and you're like, Your first car.
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I hear what you're saying.
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Yeah, they remember that, you know, they remember that.
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I don't remember that because I wasn't born yet.
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But the fact that he says that, I will always remember that now.
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So the fact is he he's always remembered that, that's where the differentiation really falls into play.
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So it wasn't really an answer for you, but yeah.
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And I think it's tough, right?
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I think it's I'll be the first to admit they there's they're very it's they're sometimes so similar, it's like, what are we doing?
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Let's change the name.
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Boom.
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Okay.
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Right.
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That's yeah, yeah.
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And you get into those.
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So no, absolutely.
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Let's uh let's talk about brand messaging a little bit.
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Um, where do you where have you have you seen that work in terms of meaningfully influencing people to switch behaviors about how they feel about a brand or how they feel about a credit union, how they feel about products?
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I mean, you mentioned product naming in particular.
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Um, so maybe so it becomes more intuitive or more um explicitly relevant to what they're going through.
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Yeah.
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And I think what I what you're talking about is that transactional institution to more of a lifestyle brand.
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Exactly so the shift from financial institution to lifestyle brand is really a shift from I guess episodic interaction to continuous relevance.
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So historically, I throughout credit union time from way back in Germany, it's been, you know, open an account, get that loan, and then we want you to move on and get another loan, get a credit card, get, you know, that's that's episodic banking.
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Um, but a lifestyle brand, I think, shows up in between those transactions, um digitally, social, so socially, or educationally, and then internally that shift kind of changes everything.
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So marketing campaigns really stop and become ecosystem-driven.
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So you're building always on content, the financial education platforms, the community engagement strategies.
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Um I think operationally, mission has to be activated, not just stated.
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I mean, everybody's mission statement has something about financial well-being.
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That's great.
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How are we living it?
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How is it showing up in the designs that we're putting out there in our products and services?
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Because from there, your success metrics will evolve.
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And the goal isn't just transactions, it's really financial relevance across your members' life stages.
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Yeah.
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So it's I love what you put around the ecosystem piece because you know, you could think about it, or or individuals are like rate shopping and they want to, it's very transactional.
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Exactly.
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But you want to obviously get that person, yeah, a great rate, but make them a lifetime member.
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And right.
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If if we all had the best rates, we'd be shopping at two places and that'd be it, you know, like exact.
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Yeah, and that episodic piece you mentioned, it it kind of reminds me with no shade here, but the Wells Fargo model of years past, right?
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You get a you get a new account, you get a new account.
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Everybody gets one, even if you don't know it.
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Exactly.
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What misconceptions do marketers have about what truly drives member preference, Michael?
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What would you say misconceptions-wise that relates to credit unions?
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I think we often bring in our own personal experiences as consumers.
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And both good and bad.
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Um, frankly, there are probably a few things that I've said here today that I'm not practicing as well as I'd like to be in the shop.
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And then other times I bring terrible ideas because I go, This was my experience with this credit union.
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And how can we change that?
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And it's kind of like, wait a minute, are we doing that?
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You know, why what and it's not if it is if it isn't broke, don't fix it.
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It's more like I think sometimes as marketers, we can lose our sense of our own mission um because of our personal mission.
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So that's something that I try to be careful and cognizant of.
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Um, but I do definitely see that in other brands, especially as I've gotten more involved in the systems marketing and business development um program at America's Credit Unions used to be tuna, is a lot of folks, we will tell the same stories.
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It's like I sometimes am writing myself into my marketing narrative, and it's because I I've got the best opinions, I know the best colors, I know the best.
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So I do think that stepping a couple steps back and saying, okay, who are we marketing to?
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Storytelling has been a huge reprieve when it comes to that kind of rub for me, anyway.
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So I would say that that's mine, my personal biggest one.
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I think that it's such an excellent point, just in the sense that you're absolutely right.
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It's a you're you're a sample size of one, right?
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Yeah.
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You're representing thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of potential uh individuals attending and and interacting with your your credit union.
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So and I think that's just for me and my my viewpoint on on what you're it's just that's experience led and your your viewpoint and you're you've self-educated and you've matured, right?
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To identify that listen, that's not yeah, I've got my own opinions, but let's I've somewhat matured.
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I don't know if it's let's let's be very clear.
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Um let's talk like back to you know, again, well, this is an interesting redirection of the clock of the question, but uh again, if people are just rate shopping versus open to a broader relationship, what what signals are you from engagement-related signals and metrics?
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What are you looking to understand about those individuals?
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I know you're liking to kind of nurture those individuals on an ongoing basis.
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Um, what would you say there?
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Yeah, that's another good question because people don't wake up wanting a new financial institution.
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You know, it's rarely that you're getting those acquisition numbers because your brand is prettier and all of a sudden they say, Oh, yay, I'm gonna switch to them.
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They look good.
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They wake up needing a convenience or even a yield.
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So strategically, we're acknowledging that a large percentage of acquisition is situational, not relational.
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This has been in the industry chattered about for years, at least as long as I've been here.
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But we really look at things like have they moved?
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Are they financing something?
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Are they chasing yield?
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Have they had a service failure elsewhere?
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Sometimes you have to adopt a new vendor to really dig into some of these numbers and understand them correctly, but they're a little off-key when it comes to your more standard analytics that you're looking at.
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And we have dug deep into analytics in this last couple months.
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Uh, we've got an amazing digital manager on our team, and we're starting to look at a lot of these metrics and saying, how can we realistically apply them and accurately?
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Because rate shoppers behave differently, right?
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They engage late funnel, they compare products, not brands, um, and they conquert, they convert quickly and then they churn easily.
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So the other one I like to look at are what I call cheaters.
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And these are members that you're starting to see are making payments with Wells Fargo more and more and more, or they're making payments, or they're slowly withdrawing money over time.
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I think these are the the maybe mid-hanging fruit that I think go they fly under the radar and really easily.
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And what do they care if one day they become a dormant accountant?
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You know, make them care.
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They're not gonna care.
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And so um, we like to not quite look outside the box, but look into the corners of the box when it comes to metrics and things that we can look at to strengthen acquisition and then maintain it.
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Michael, that's powerful stuff.
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I mean, I I think just it's it's funny, just customer service, right?
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Yeah.
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Oh, that's a huge one.
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With the data too.
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But you you've got all these data, and I love that just that positioning of like someone slowly maybe not maintaining their average balance, so to speak.
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Is that an indication that they're gonna shop elsewhere?
00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:16.880
Are they not happy?
00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:21.759
Are they not one's the last touch point that they that they experience with with your credit union?
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:23.440
So yeah, those are those are really cool.
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:25.599
Maybe nothing's going on.
00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:30.000
Yeah, and we check in with them, and it's all of a sudden, oh wow, and they're re-engaged.
00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:31.599
But maybe it's something more serious.
00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:44.079
I'd never forget a story I learned quite a while ago from it, was at a session at Go West, which was then Northwest Credit Union Association, um, about an elderly member who passed.
00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:52.640
And because she had an auto loan, she was a it was her PFI, but she'd like had an auto loan from a long time ago at Wells Fargo and had paid it off.
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:54.160
They sent her family flowers.
00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:56.960
Wells Fargo was on top of it, sent her flowers.
00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:09.920
They closed the credit union account, went over to Wells Fargo, took out all of her funds and went over there just because they were paying attention to the relationship and the behavior and they noticed all this meant this well, this customer had passed.
00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:12.319
Um little things like that.
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:28.240
If if you're paying attention to those metrics, those lifestyle metrics, not to call death lifestyle, but it's part of life, you uh you know, you can be ahead of it in the way of helping people tell their story or at least be supportive of where their story is going next.
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:35.440
So interesting metrics to to sort of dial in, but it has helped us understand behavior so much more.
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:40.400
Yeah, and I think you have this you know fairly robust uh data set.
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:45.839
So it's like, okay, how do you slice and dice that and look beyond more of those traditional metrics?
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:56.720
It honestly reminds me too of just where I have some relatives that were just always had the same insurance carrier and ever thought about shopping it, right?
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:02.079
And you know, the classic like you should shop it every year, and it's like, well, I kind of like my guy or gal.
00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:06.079
Um but it's like, okay, what else is out there, right?
00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:09.759
Or um are you really getting that best price?
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:11.920
Um, and oftentimes you're not, right?
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:13.359
So there's a certain thing.
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:14.559
It's always been this way.
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:14.880
Yeah.
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:16.319
So we will leave it that way.
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:16.799
Yep.
00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:21.599
Creatures of a habit too, generally we um love that.
00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:22.720
There's a really good stuff.
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:29.680
Let's um you know, you talked about evolving toward a lifestyle and a um identity-driven brand.
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:32.880
What what does that mean operationally to you guys?
00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:44.480
I think it goes back to because the goal isn't just transactions, it's the financial relevance um that I spoke to.
00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:53.279
Um so I don't think that having living your mission more, it doesn't remove the need for performance.
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:56.799
I think it changes how your performance is defined and deployed.
00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:05.119
So moving toward that brand style is having everybody on board to understand what exactly our personality is and who we are.
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:10.400
I think that's something with every credit union that they kind of suffer with.
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.839
There are brands out there that you just you know what it is.
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:14.799
You just know what it is.
00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:17.519
I'm not comparing us to McDonald's or anything like that.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:19.759
I'm just saying when you see it, you know it.
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:21.759
Your members should be able to do that.
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:24.319
So should so should your internal members.
00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:27.039
So when you say brand lifestyle, that's what I think of.
00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:34.400
I think that as marketers, we not only need to be living the brand, we need to understand how our membership sees our brand.
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:42.799
And if our brand were a person and walked down the street, would one of our members recognize and how would they acknowledge that?
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:45.680
Um, so I'm not sure if I fully answer that question correctly.
00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:52.640
But um, would you say that that was I mean, you you've been your current credit union for a little while now.
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.640
Would you say that was a priority then?
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:58.960
Or still is still is.
00:21:59.039 --> 00:21:59.440
It's ongoing.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.480
Ongoing.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:01.119
It's ongoing.
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:01.680
Totally.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:01.839
Yeah.
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.880
I think that it should always be ongoing, top of mind.
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:12.240
We're looking at a brand refresh, which is fun and you can throw money at it, but at the end of the day, you you have to have analytics around that.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:13.519
You know, what is your goal?
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:16.160
What are you, what are we trying to accomplish with this?
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.480
And a lot of times things go in on on they occur in the back background.
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.359
You know, frontline staff might have no idea that we're doing it.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:28.400
And all of a sudden, here's all these communications, and this is when it's launching, and this is what's happening.
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:30.799
And we're going to be coming into your branch and redoing the walls.
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:32.400
And they go, huh?
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:36.559
You know, so it's really important to have everybody on the same page.
00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:40.799
And that's why I believe it's ongoing, is because I want their input too.
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:54.799
Sometimes it's yes, but or no, but um, however, it's so important to have all of your team involved and your membership involved in how you define what your personality is and your brand lifestyle and how you live it and lead it.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:55.759
Yeah, so true.
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:57.759
I mean, oftentimes you'll get that.
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:00.160
I mean, uh going to more digital.
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:02.559
Hey, we need a web, we need a we need a new website.
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:09.839
It's like well, theoretically, the website should have been evolving this entire time, right?
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:12.799
And I think that's always the case for digital marketing in particular.
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:15.839
It's like, oh yeah, well, the website should be building and evolving.
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:20.319
And the case for a net new is is there, but that's a huge undertaking.
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:22.880
Um, but sometimes you just need to do it.
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:25.680
But without it, it's not a dictatorship, right?
00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:31.119
You need to solicit advice and feedback and make sure that proactive communication is is disseminated.
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:32.240
So yeah.
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:45.519
I think, I mean, for university credit unions specifically and not just the system, I think the probably the biggest transformation underway for us is that historically financial institutions show up at moments of transaction.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:50.720
We're intentionally building relevance in the spaces between those transactions.
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:56.160
Yeah, kind of the but not the calm before the storm, if you will.
00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:59.359
Like kind of a little bit of lull before any like major.
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:00.240
Sure, yeah.
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:00.640
Yeah.
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:01.920
Which is great.
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:02.559
Yeah.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:05.440
Um let's transition a little bit.
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:07.119
I've got some additional questions here.
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:13.839
Um credit unions and kind of the stewardship uh responsibility components.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:16.880
How do you balance mission with performance expectations?
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:21.279
Because I think that's constant is like, yeah, we want to reiterate our mission.
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:24.319
We want to keep the brand stewardship uh focused.
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:27.680
But hey, we've got performance-related metrics.
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:31.279
Um, how do you deal with are those one and the same?
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:32.880
Are they separate?
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:44.799
You know, let's say you've got a pressure from this quarter to make particular numbers, um, but you don't want to loosen or um reduce your reliance on your your mission and values.
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:46.240
Talk to me about that.
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:53.519
Yeah, no, I think I just said this because mission doesn't remove the need for performance.
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:55.119
I think I'd said that.
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:55.759
You did.
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:56.960
I don't even remember what I said.
00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.359
Tyler, you got me talking in circles there you go.
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:08.960
Um I think I think honestly that it's a balancing act, which is in a way port foul portfolio management.
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:15.680
So I'll explain some marketing investments drive immediate ROI, like paid acquisition product campaigns.
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:22.960
Others will drive long-term institutional equity for a lack of a better way of saying it.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:27.119
And that's like financial education, community part uh partnerships.
00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:34.799
Um where I think the mistake occurs is you evaluate both of them through the same lens.
00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:36.000
If that makes sense.
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:47.599
Um so like short-term campaign campaigns are measured in conversion efficiency and purpose investments are measured in lift trust and member retention.
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:53.920
And so we ask, how does it improve growth velocity or how does it improve member well-being?
00:25:54.079 --> 00:25:56.400
But the strongest investments really do both.
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:04.880
So when you align those, you get a scalable mission delivery delivery, not just a symbolic purpose.
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:13.119
So at the end of the day, I think credit unions, when they stop trying to outbank banks, uh, they need to start out meaning them.
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:18.160
Like product parity is inevitable, but mission authentic authenticity really is not.
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:30.319
And I think the institutions that operationalize their purpose, not just promote it, are the ones that turn members into advocates and those transactions into lifelong memberships or relationships.
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:30.799
Yeah.
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:32.640
Michael, you're a quote machine here.
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:35.759
We got like a ton of don't quote me.
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:36.960
This is all off the air.
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:37.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.720
This is all, yeah, yeah.
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:40.240
Not on the air.
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:41.200
That's hilarious.
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:43.680
Uh I love love where you're headed there.
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:48.799
And um I also want to talk about kind of innovation and what you're seeing.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.839
I know you probably haven't heard of this acronym AI.
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:52.240
I don't know.
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:53.519
It's probably new.
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:56.000
I'm gonna look, I'm gonna chat GTP that's like.
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:57.680
You heard it here first.
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:16.720
What's um, you know, as members are evolving in terms of their research um paths and and obviously um LLMs are becoming more and more ubiquitous, not necessarily nearly as much as we probably think as marketers, right?
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:23.920
People are are using them, but let's be honest, the behemoth that Google is still uh still taking up the majority of the market share.
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:34.799
How are you guys um evolving to um prioritize large language models and make sure that there's a presence there?
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:44.240
Um and then a second part to that question is around how are how are you adapting kind of AI technologies and workflows within uh your your business?
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:55.119
That's those are both very prevalent and hard to answer questions.
00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:00.640
Um I mean, credit unions are clearly going through a demographic shift.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:08.960
Um we have fewer and fewer young members and fewer and fewer older members, but those are the bulk of our membership.
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:13.759
And so we're really looking at how our digital services are adopted.
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:22.319
So we're really digital first, we're calling ourselves a digital first credit union and utilizing omni-channel experiences.
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:27.920
So everything we're integrating online, mobile, self-service, in-branch touch points.
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:33.599
We're looking at closing a couple of locations, not because we're hurting, but we're really following foot traffic.
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:40.799
So from a digital perspective, analytical data that we talked about earlier has been key.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:45.680
Um, we are watching, there's some great um platforms out there.
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:49.759
We're we're we're watching members or potential members live on the website.
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.200
We're looking at journey mapping, which we just completed one project.
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:58.640
So when it comes to a digital adoption and how we're promoting that for membership, it is ongoing.
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:01.759
And I don't think I quite followed your question.
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:06.079
I as far as how I'm answering that does that cover or did did I miss something?
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:09.119
No, I think you know, digital adoption absolutely.
00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:27.839
I mean, I think it's just there's no playbook for optimizing to large language models, but I think it is it is adopting its understanding, it's testing, and it's to a certain set extent tracking prompts and things like that, but which is a lot of synthetic data.
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:31.680
Um so it's directionally accurate, quote unquote.
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:34.000
I wouldn't say even that is something, right?
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:36.880
But I think you're hearing, I'm I'm sure you're hearing more and more.
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:52.319
We're seeing that, and we're we're doing quite a bit um with our credit union clients too, and just around educating ourselves and and understanding how people are first getting the site one and then subsequently how are they converting, right?
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:54.319
Um and what are they dropping off?
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:54.720
Totally.
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:57.920
And what we're what research have they conducted before, right?
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:00.640
In and prior to to making that decision.
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:02.480
So exactly, exactly.
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:03.200
Yeah.
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:11.359
And when it comes to AI and you know where that is and where it will be, because it will be everywhere if it's not already.
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:16.400
We have definitely taken more of a cybersecurity approach to it as an institution.
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:22.480
Um, so right now, marketing has not been as involved in well, I shouldn't say that.
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:28.880
We have been involved in decision making, but there are certain platforms that we're completely blocked from using and we agree with it.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:30.720
Chat GPT being one of them.
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:32.799
I can't even access it on the computer.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:39.440
Not that I'd need to or want to, but marketing, we've been using it for from a very administrative pro uh standpoint.
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:46.640
So while it helps me build out, oh, a quick communication plan, I'm immediately in there and no, no, no.
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:49.680
So I appreciate its capability.
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:54.079
I do really think that it can be dangerous when it comes to authenticity.
00:30:54.319 --> 00:31:01.519
There have already been so many vendors we work with that they if you know they don't want to see anything AI.
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:05.039
If this is AI built, we are not interested.
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:06.960
Um, and vice versa.
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:12.960
So we think our membership deserves the same thing because we tout the real person being there.
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:18.799
So again, Tyler, I'm not poo-pooing on the AI in any way, shape, or form.
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:29.839
I do think that there needs to be eventually some legislation, and especially in finance, um, we start to see a lot of loans coming to us through people looking up chat looking us up.
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:36.240
And hey, I love that chat GTP is finding us and saying, check out thanks for the plug there.
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:42.240
It also concerns me on what else our members are asking them and where else it might be taking them.
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:54.160
And if that information is accurate, I'm not saying humans are perfect, um, but I do think that it's important when at the end of the day the members struggling, they have a person to speak to.
00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:55.279
Yeah, exactly.
00:31:55.599 --> 00:32:09.839
Yeah, and I think that's that's the big thing that we're seeing across the board is just more and more companies inserting AI, thinking that the service needs it, and when actuality wants to keep pressing zero to get to an actual person, right?
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:11.920
And I think that authenticity is is huge.
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:13.759
I'm glad you've you've restated that.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:22.319
But I think you're right, you you just you have to keep a pulse and you have to understand it's your totally regulatory regulated industry, excuse me.
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:29.839
And um, there's there's there's also um you know people that are concerned with their data getting out there.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:33.200
Um, and that's in certain cases tough to rank.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:34.079
Yeah.
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:36.000
That is wildly scary.
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:44.799
We were going to implement a new AI platform into our chat program on our website.
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:48.160
And luckily somebody said, Well, wait a minute, wait a minute.
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:51.759
This crawls everything, including unpublished pages.
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.720
Yeah, like it connects directly to our web vendor.
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:59.680
We we can't do that because there's sensitive information that goes through third parties.
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:03.599
Like when you apply for a loan, you need to put in your social security number.
00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:13.279
I know it's not hard to find things like that anymore, but if we sit there and we somebody uh Nerdowell goes in there and says, What's my social security number?
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:17.279
and it starts feeding all these social security numbers, that's a break in the system.
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:19.839
And AI doesn't know any better because you asked it.
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.880
So the little things like that do scare me.
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:32.240
And that's kind of an improbable situation, but it's not that improbable when you see data breaches pop out just on human error.
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:44.559
If an AI is directly linked to something that's sensitive and it doesn't know what you're asking, but you know what you're asking, you could very likely cause a gigantic data breach if you're not careful.
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:46.319
So that's another scary thing for me.
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:48.720
Not to be doom and gloom, but no, not at all.
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:56.079
But I think again, it's a it's a differentiator to a certain extent around just your prioritization around security and your member, the help of members.
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:57.759
Huge today.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:33:59.200
Security is huge.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:33:59.920
Absolutely.
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:16.960
And I think you know, there the evolution of of AI, and we're we're already starting to see it, and we're building tools out as well, but just where we can essentially have a confined space that is not like a exploratory discovery tool like ChatGPT or Claude, right?
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:28.320
Demon I it's it is confined, like a notebook LM, for example, that is just you're training it up on the data that you're adding to it, and it's not able to source outside things to a certain extent.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.280
So again, and I love seeing more and more of that.
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:35.280
That's that's that's that's my type of music right there.
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:36.480
Yeah, exactly.
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:38.239
Michael, great stuff here.
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:39.599
I really appreciate your time.
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:42.400
Let's uh let's have a couple closing questions here.
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:46.719
Um what uh let's go back to kind of the mission stuff.
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:52.159
What advice would you give to marketing leaders navigating mission and performance at the same time?
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:53.920
I know we talked about that a little bit.
00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:59.840
I know you you talked about consistency and making sure that they're kind of essentially one in the same.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.000
Would you yeah, anything to add there?
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:13.920
Or individuals that, for example, are so fixated on performance and it's so too much so where they they're essentially avoiding or discounting the mission.
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:18.960
I think we see that all all the time, honestly, to fight for those metrics.
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:20.480
It's a good question.
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:22.400
I think we can sum it up in one word.
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:23.280
Authentic.
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:24.480
Be authentic.
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:25.760
That's two works.
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:34.000
But yeah, I think it's important that people revisit their mission every every strategic planning session, every quarter, every month, if they need to.
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:39.519
It's not about all teams where you say, okay, for five bucks, what's our mission statement?
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:43.920
Everybody should know it and everybody should be living it and understand how they're living it.
00:35:44.079 --> 00:36:08.320
I know that's not always easy to do, but again, at the end of the day, if you're you know increasing a rate on something just to make a few more bucks and it's within the Fed, I mean, it makes sense for you, but you're you're cutting out certain members who you know could use that loan, but you're not taking the risk to give them the loan that falls on the people helping people philosophy we were built on.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:11.039
We have to keep the lights on, we have to not be risky.
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:16.079
But if you're not living the mission, if that goes against your mission, you need to revisit.
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:17.599
Do you know your membership?
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:20.719
Are you serving them the way that you were built to serve them?
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:23.119
And if you're not, maybe the mission needs to change.
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:27.280
But either way, I think you need to remain authentic to who you are, who you say you are.
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:36.800
Because again, if you're not able to serve your membership in the way that you are asking every staff member to know and memorize, you're not living it.
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.480
So authors authenticity.
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:41.440
I like how one word turned in like 200 words there.
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:44.559
Yeah, it's like the short short-term gains.
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:47.360
Like, are they are they work it worth it for the long term?
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:47.760
Yeah.
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:49.440
Almost like why are we doing it?
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:51.199
Are we just balancing our portfolio?
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:53.119
Do we want to look good on the call report?
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:58.320
Like what what are our yeah, what are our yeah motives here is what I would say.
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:00.480
Yeah, you you you you nailed it.
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:06.639
Like, yeah, your your executive team's happy, but are is is the are the customers happy long term?
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:08.719
Oh yeah, did you buy something there?
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:09.440
So I love that.
00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:13.119
Yeah, and how many people did we lose loyalty because we made that decision?
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:13.679
Totally.
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:20.719
Could have potentially, you know, it's yeah, it's ongoing, but it's I think authenticity is so valuable.
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:26.159
You can you can say AI here, but I'm sure there's other things perhaps too we can we can think about.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:34.960
But is one what's one shift happening right now that that you think will define the next five years of of financial services marketing specifically?
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:39.440
I think the economy has been definitely a huge piece.
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:42.000
AI, of course, but it already has been.
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:44.719
I can say AI already has been.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:48.159
The economy's been affecting credit unions since the beginning of time.
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:54.000
So um, but I have seen some significant shifts, uh, especially in rate changes.
00:37:54.159 --> 00:38:06.480
I do think that that's gonna be a challenge for certain types of marketing, but it's also an opportunity to where you can put in more storytelling, the meat in between those transactions, not lead with rates, lead with your heart type thing.
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:10.719
This has been something I've heard from many others in the credit union system throughout my time.
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:12.480
So this is not new or innovative.
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:20.239
I think it's just something that we need to revisit as we see certain potentially dangerous economic changes and also educational.
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:25.840
You know, how how are we informing members and potential members of what these changes mean?
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:34.400
And I mean, the even tax season this year, there are a few changes that people don't quite understand that we could be ahead of and we could be on top of.
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:39.679
So I think the economy, but that's always kind of worrying me, yeah, as it is most po most people.
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:46.719
But that's I think in the next five years, that's something we want to and I'm I don't have specifics, so I'll just be very general.
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:49.840
Just blame it on that word and we can go from there.
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:51.599
Trust me, it's the economy's fault.
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:52.880
No, exactly.
00:38:53.119 --> 00:39:00.960
Yeah, but I think you also meant just education, and I think making sure people are educated themselves and making sure that empowered.
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:01.679
Empowered.
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:02.880
Empowered, absolutely.
00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:12.800
And I think that's back to some more of that mission, that authenticity, and that stewardship um that you know I know you guys are are really promoting um actively.
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:15.360
So Michael, it's absolute pleasure.
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:19.920
Really, uh, I'm not I'm not uh lying when I say there's some some really good quotable moments.
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:21.119
Really appreciate your time.
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:23.920
And and I I know you got one or two things going on.
00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:30.559
So um, hey, where where can people interact with the the the university credit union and and find you online?
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:33.679
Yeah, we're at ucu.org.
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:38.400
Um if you want to bug me, you can find me on LinkedIn, just Michael Murdock.
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:39.920
Um I'll pop up.
00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:45.360
Um, but yeah, uh I am a huge collaborator, love cooperation.
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:50.719
So um that's the other thing I love about the difference between big box banks and credit unions.
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:54.719
If I called up Tansley, for example, and said, Hey, give me this, give me the secret.
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:55.840
How did you nail this?
00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:00.000
Yeah, she more than like well, she'd probably hang up with me, but she might no, I'm kidding.
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:07.199
She more than likely would say, Oh, A to Z or let me get you my CMO or or VP or they'll they'll give you everything.
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:10.159
I could call most any shop and they would do that.
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:12.239
So look me up, email me.
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:16.800
I'm happy to chat or be yelled at, whatever makes the most sense.
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:21.360
She actually told us the the secret during our last podcast session, so you'll have to listen to that.
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:23.039
It's it's I'll I will listen.
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:24.239
There, it's it's minute.
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:25.119
No, I'm just joking.
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:27.679
Um, but I no, I think that's also too just again.
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:40.400
I I talked about Kool-Aid, I thought about just like it truly is a community, and you guys, yeah, in a certain, you know, you're not direct competitors within your geographic locations, but you're you're you're sharing, right?
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:43.360
And it's we talked to Pam from Navy Credit Card Union.
00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:48.719
She's she said the same thing about the they're the and they're they're they're everywhere, right?
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:51.039
So um loved hearing that.
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:53.920
And I I I name me another industry that's gonna say that.
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:56.239
I I think there's there's not too many.
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:58.239
So I don't know.
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:00.559
Um brain biology.
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:03.119
I don't yeah, exactly.
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:05.039
Uh Michael, great to see you.
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:05.840
Appreciate your time.
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:06.480
Thanks again.
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:07.760
Yeah, thank you, Tyler.
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:08.320
Awesome.
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:09.519
See ya soon.
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:15.440
Thanks for listening to Built to Convert.
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:18.239
If you're serious about growth, don't just listen.
00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:23.840
Subscribe, leave a review, and follow us for new episodes that drop straight into your feet.
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:26.719
Until next time, keep building.
00:00:03.359 --> 00:00:10.880
You're listening to Built to Convert, the podcast where growth-minded marketers, founders, and creators come to level up.
00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:15.439
No hype, no guesswork, just bold insights that drive results.
00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:16.640
Let's go.
00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:27.039
Welcome to Built to Convert, a podcast where we explore how strategy, analytics, and creativity come together to drive meaningful growth.
00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:30.000
I'm your host, Tyler Lane, founder of Session Interactive.
00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:37.359
Today we are continuing our credit union series with a conversation focused on real on the real challenge facing financial institutions right now.
00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:43.119
When products look the same, rates are competitive everywhere, and fintech competition keeps increasing.
00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:46.560
How do you build preference, loyalty, and measurable growth growth?
00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:53.759
To unpack that, I'm joined by Michael Murdoch, AVP of Marketing at University Credit Union in Los Angeles.
00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:59.759
This episode is brought to you by Session Interactive, the performance marketing agency for our financial institutions, serious about growth.
00:00:59.920 --> 00:01:05.760
We partner with credit unions, banks, and financial brands to strengthen SEO, paid media analytics, and conversion strategy.
00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:11.439
So marketing performance ties directly to funded accounts, qualified members, and long-term value.
00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:20.159
If your team needs sharper data, stronger acquisition strategy, or clearer attribution in an increasingly competitive landscape, visit sessioninteractive.com.
00:01:20.719 --> 00:01:28.640
All right, so guys, Michael Murdoch is the AVP of marketing at University Credit Union, one of the leading credit unions in serving Southern California.
00:01:28.799 --> 00:01:42.560
In his role, he oversees brand acquisition strategies and the evolution of UCU's marketing approach and environment where rates and financial products are often often create functional parity across institutions.
00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:58.799
Today we're going to explore how mission-driven credit union competes in a commoditized marketplace, how acquisition is measured beyond vanity metrics, and what really means to evolve from a transactional institution into a lifestyle-oriented brand without losing commercial discipline.
00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:00.640
Michael, great to have you on.
00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:01.840
Appreciate your time.
00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:03.519
Thank you very much, Tyler.
00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:05.040
I'm looking forward to chatting with you.
00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:06.079
Yeah, absolutely.
00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:12.479
So I mentioned before we hit record here, I kind of like to establish a little bit of um expanded credibility.
00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:14.960
You've been in the space for quite some time now.
00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:21.840
Um, what led you into financial services, in particular marketing, and then specifically in the credit union space?
00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:26.000
What was the initial um area or opportunity that gravitated towards you?
00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:31.120
And I love this question because it's always, you know, I wanted to be a firefighter when I grew up.
00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:38.000
And then 20 years later, I had no idea that I would be this immersed in the credit union ecosystem.
00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:39.759
I just did not think it would happen.
00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:43.280
So this is during the unsettling times of 2008.
00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:54.080
I was already in marketing, but not in the finance scope or space, and I was let go, which at the time I was young enough to think, oh, this is the end of the world, and I'll never get another job.
00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:56.319
I'm going to work at a gas station tomorrow.
00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:58.719
I've been a credit union member my whole life.
00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:02.400
I couldn't tell you what the difference was way back then.
00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:05.360
I thought they were the same thing, but I knew there was something special.
00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:08.400
And I saw a credit union was hiring in the Portland, Oregon area.
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:09.199
I thought, why not?
00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:10.319
I'll throw my hat in the ring.
00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:12.560
I don't know what I'm doing, but I know marketing.
00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:14.479
And before I knew it, I was hired.
00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:22.159
It didn't take long, Tyler, before I started noticing things like financial education, uh, the way that members were treated and spoken of differently.
00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:27.759
You know, as I've been there longer, I know that some of that stuff is old hat and it needs refreshing and it gets fatigue.
00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:31.280
But back then, that's when I, so to speak, drank the Kool-Aid.
00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:33.680
Um, and it from there it was a wildfire.
00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:37.360
And I haven't left, left or looked back in almost 15 years now.
00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:42.080
But I've always been in the marketing space, but I'm a huge credit union advocate.
00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:46.560
I grew well outside my role and I don't seem to want to stop anytime soon.
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We talked about that too, just that that phrase that you brought up, drink the Kool-Aid.
00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:57.360
It's again, it's uh I feel like sometimes um I I'm like I don't, it's it's unmatched passion that we see.
00:03:57.599 --> 00:03:58.479
Right, right.
00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:05.199
You know, my me personally, I've worked in a variety of industries over the years and just and we were lucky enough to to get involved with credit unions.
00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:09.039
And it's like, wow, they they are seriously passionate about what they do.
00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:20.639
Let's uh let's unpack marketing as a whole and fairly general question here, but like what does good marketing, what was your perspective of good marketing um looks like as your your career evolved?
00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:26.160
You mentioned you you knew marketing, right, when you when you first applied to the the credit union gig.
00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:30.160
How has that evolved and your definition of that over the years?
00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:32.720
Yeah, for a while it was empathy.
00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:44.000
Um, if I can narrow it down to one word, but then I realized that even that didn't work because how am I going to empathize with somebody if I've never actually been in their shoes?
00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:46.240
I can sympathize, but I can't empathize.
00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:47.360
So then that changed.
00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:50.079
Then it kind of regressed to, well, not regress.
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I took a step back and I said it's all about brand personality.
00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:56.879
You know, how can somebody relate to my brand personality?
00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:59.920
And now today it's all about storytelling.
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And so there's an excellent guy out there named Andy Jan, Andy Janning, who is doing a big project on storytelling and how credit unions can better tell that story.
00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:14.639
Because if we're store if we're telling a story and somebody is saying, wait, what can you repeat that?
00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:17.120
Or I I totally relate to that.
00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:23.040
Or they lift an eyebrow, they're more likely to go back and revisit what you said or what you shared.
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And this isn't leading product first, it's leading personality first and empathy and sympathy first.
00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:33.759
So that's why I wanted to put a bow kind of on storytelling, and that's how I define it now.
00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:35.040
Yeah, I love that.
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And I think that's often it's it's just a it's a missed maybe opportunity in the sense to just I think you mentioned too, it's like I you didn't know the difference between banks and credit unions, right?
00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:48.240
That's all too common, right?
00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:50.399
And my mom still says, How's the bank going?
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It's like, mom, mom, come on.
00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:53.439
How dare you, mom?
00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:54.399
Stop.
00:05:55.279 --> 00:06:07.120
Yeah, and it's it is it's those aspects and other key differentiators, um, not necessarily always about banks, but are are are hopefully defined within a proper story.
00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:08.240
Absolutely.
00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:08.959
Yeah.
00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:16.319
What uh would you say is uh different about leading marketing in a credit union versus other industries?
00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:20.560
I know it's been a while since you've you've been in other industries, but what would you say?
00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:28.560
You know, I think storytelling obviously is a unique component, but are there other key components that you can kind of hone in on that you would say were are different?
00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:40.720
I'm sure there are so many that I can think of that I have in my back pocket that are not coming to mind, but immediately it's knowing or being more involved with your consumer, your your member.
00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:48.000
I don't even want to say your men, I don't want to say your member, even this the people in the economies that you're serving in a way.
00:06:48.160 --> 00:07:05.120
You know, there's nothing better than um to to look at your impact report or to create an impact report or go to the GAC and speak with your legislators and just see how much as a credit union you've put back into the economy, um, the education systems or streets and roads.
00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:09.360
There are just so many differences when it comes to actually serving people.
00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:18.800
Um, whereas in some other industries, some other industries, it becomes kind of homogenized or it becomes very um white label, if you will.
00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:21.839
It's it's we know how to serve, and this is how it's gonna be.
00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:30.000
It's it's red and yellow for for fast food and for big banks, we're paying our stockholders back in New York or wherever.
00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:35.439
Um, so I definitely think it's the relationship, something that's more tangible anyway.
00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:40.399
It's the relationship that I've developed between myself and the people that we serve.
00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:46.160
I think that's a huge difference that I just didn't feel um in my prior life, if you will.
00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:51.759
And I don't know if that's for every everybody, but that's definitely something that resonates with me as far as the differentiator.
00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:52.319
Sure.
00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:59.600
Yeah, I mean, I mean I'm hearing that across the board too with other cardinals that we've been involved with and other um executives in the marketing space.
00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:04.079
So yeah, I think you're I think you're spot on, and and that's that's your story too.
00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:06.639
Um let's switch gears here a little bit.
00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:15.360
You know, I I always I often think, you know, selfishly on like my my position, right, around uh how I engage financial institutions.
00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:28.399
And when rates and core products are maybe core fairly similar um for your competition, what what would you say that differentiate um how do you differentiate yourself?
00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:31.920
But what what aspects of those drive acquisition?
00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:36.879
Um, so you can correctly differentiate to uh subsequently drive acquisition?
00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:42.639
I really like this question because financial products are functionally similar.
00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:47.200
I mean, differentiation rarely lives in the product.
00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:47.840
Exactly.
00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:49.120
In in what we serve.
00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:53.840
I mean, it really it's hard to make it different than what it was 10 years ago.
00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:57.200
It really lives in the meaning wrapped around the product.
00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:13.279
So I would say that when you look at, and I'm just throwing out some arbitrary examples, but these are our most common ones, I'm sure, for everybody, but checking accounts, auto loans, certificates, there's so very little structural differentiation left that consumers can rate shop in seconds.
00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:20.399
So if you're competing purely on product features, you're competing in a base to the bottom, for lack of a better way of saying it.
00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:23.360
So I like to break it up into three pieces.
00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:28.960
Uh, there's emotional safety, like people choose institutions they feel understand them, right?
00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:31.200
Um, both financially and culturally.
00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:33.360
Then there's identity alignment.
00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:39.039
Um, so members are increasingly wanting their financial institution to reflect their values.
00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:44.320
Um, community investment, you know, whatever that might be, we have to know what that is.
00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:48.080
And then uh experience memory, really.
00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:51.759
So the moments that matter the most are often non-transactional.
00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:57.279
I hear those stories are my favorite when somebody says, you know, I bought my first car here, and we say, Oh, that's awesome.
00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:01.600
And you look and it's 1964, and you're like, Your first car.
00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:02.879
I hear what you're saying.
00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:05.919
Yeah, they remember that, you know, they remember that.
00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:08.480
I don't remember that because I wasn't born yet.
00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:11.840
But the fact that he says that, I will always remember that now.
00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:18.240
So the fact is he he's always remembered that, that's where the differentiation really falls into play.
00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.240
So it wasn't really an answer for you, but yeah.
00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:23.759
And I think it's tough, right?
00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:31.360
I think it's I'll be the first to admit they there's they're very it's they're sometimes so similar, it's like, what are we doing?
00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:32.559
Let's change the name.
00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:33.279
Boom.
00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:33.679
Okay.
00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:34.000
Right.
00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:35.679
That's yeah, yeah.
00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:37.519
And you get into those.
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:39.519
So no, absolutely.
00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:43.279
Let's uh let's talk about brand messaging a little bit.
00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:56.559
Um, where do you where have you have you seen that work in terms of meaningfully influencing people to switch behaviors about how they feel about a brand or how they feel about a credit union, how they feel about products?
00:10:56.639 --> 00:11:00.080
I mean, you mentioned product naming in particular.
00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:07.600
Um, so maybe so it becomes more intuitive or more um explicitly relevant to what they're going through.
00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:08.799
Yeah.
00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:15.279
And I think what I what you're talking about is that transactional institution to more of a lifestyle brand.
00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:27.679
Exactly so the shift from financial institution to lifestyle brand is really a shift from I guess episodic interaction to continuous relevance.
00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:44.159
So historically, I throughout credit union time from way back in Germany, it's been, you know, open an account, get that loan, and then we want you to move on and get another loan, get a credit card, get, you know, that's that's episodic banking.
00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:57.360
Um, but a lifestyle brand, I think, shows up in between those transactions, um digitally, social, so socially, or educationally, and then internally that shift kind of changes everything.
00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:04.799
So marketing campaigns really stop and become ecosystem-driven.
00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:12.240
So you're building always on content, the financial education platforms, the community engagement strategies.
00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:19.200
Um I think operationally, mission has to be activated, not just stated.
00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:22.799
I mean, everybody's mission statement has something about financial well-being.
00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:23.440
That's great.
00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:24.480
How are we living it?
00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.639
How is it showing up in the designs that we're putting out there in our products and services?
00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:31.600
Because from there, your success metrics will evolve.
00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:39.759
And the goal isn't just transactions, it's really financial relevance across your members' life stages.
00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:40.879
Yeah.
00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:49.440
So it's I love what you put around the ecosystem piece because you know, you could think about it, or or individuals are like rate shopping and they want to, it's very transactional.
00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:50.399
Exactly.
00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:57.200
But you want to obviously get that person, yeah, a great rate, but make them a lifetime member.
00:12:57.279 --> 00:12:58.000
And right.
00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:03.279
If if we all had the best rates, we'd be shopping at two places and that'd be it, you know, like exact.
00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:11.360
Yeah, and that episodic piece you mentioned, it it kind of reminds me with no shade here, but the Wells Fargo model of years past, right?
00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:13.840
You get a you get a new account, you get a new account.
00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:17.360
Everybody gets one, even if you don't know it.
00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:19.120
Exactly.
00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:25.440
What misconceptions do marketers have about what truly drives member preference, Michael?
00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:28.559
What would you say misconceptions-wise that relates to credit unions?
00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:33.919
I think we often bring in our own personal experiences as consumers.
00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:36.240
And both good and bad.
00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:43.440
Um, frankly, there are probably a few things that I've said here today that I'm not practicing as well as I'd like to be in the shop.
00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:49.679
And then other times I bring terrible ideas because I go, This was my experience with this credit union.
00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:51.840
And how can we change that?
00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:55.440
And it's kind of like, wait a minute, are we doing that?
00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:59.120
You know, why what and it's not if it is if it isn't broke, don't fix it.
00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:09.519
It's more like I think sometimes as marketers, we can lose our sense of our own mission um because of our personal mission.
00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:13.120
So that's something that I try to be careful and cognizant of.
00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:27.039
Um, but I do definitely see that in other brands, especially as I've gotten more involved in the systems marketing and business development um program at America's Credit Unions used to be tuna, is a lot of folks, we will tell the same stories.
00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:35.120
It's like I sometimes am writing myself into my marketing narrative, and it's because I I've got the best opinions, I know the best colors, I know the best.
00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:40.879
So I do think that stepping a couple steps back and saying, okay, who are we marketing to?
00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:46.399
Storytelling has been a huge reprieve when it comes to that kind of rub for me, anyway.
00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:51.200
So I would say that that's mine, my personal biggest one.
00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:55.840
I think that it's such an excellent point, just in the sense that you're absolutely right.
00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:58.639
It's a you're you're a sample size of one, right?
00:14:58.879 --> 00:14:59.039
Yeah.
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:07.840
You're representing thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of potential uh individuals attending and and interacting with your your credit union.
00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:19.919
So and I think that's just for me and my my viewpoint on on what you're it's just that's experience led and your your viewpoint and you're you've self-educated and you've matured, right?
00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:24.720
To identify that listen, that's not yeah, I've got my own opinions, but let's I've somewhat matured.
00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:28.320
I don't know if it's let's let's be very clear.
00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:46.320
Um let's talk like back to you know, again, well, this is an interesting redirection of the clock of the question, but uh again, if people are just rate shopping versus open to a broader relationship, what what signals are you from engagement-related signals and metrics?
00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:49.440
What are you looking to understand about those individuals?
00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:53.200
I know you're liking to kind of nurture those individuals on an ongoing basis.
00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:55.440
Um, what would you say there?
00:15:56.240 --> 00:16:00.639
Yeah, that's another good question because people don't wake up wanting a new financial institution.
00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:09.679
You know, it's rarely that you're getting those acquisition numbers because your brand is prettier and all of a sudden they say, Oh, yay, I'm gonna switch to them.
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:10.399
They look good.
00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:14.080
They wake up needing a convenience or even a yield.
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:21.919
So strategically, we're acknowledging that a large percentage of acquisition is situational, not relational.
00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:27.600
This has been in the industry chattered about for years, at least as long as I've been here.
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:30.799
But we really look at things like have they moved?
00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:32.080
Are they financing something?
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:33.600
Are they chasing yield?
00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:36.000
Have they had a service failure elsewhere?
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:48.639
Sometimes you have to adopt a new vendor to really dig into some of these numbers and understand them correctly, but they're a little off-key when it comes to your more standard analytics that you're looking at.
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:53.039
And we have dug deep into analytics in this last couple months.
00:16:53.120 --> 00:17:03.039
Uh, we've got an amazing digital manager on our team, and we're starting to look at a lot of these metrics and saying, how can we realistically apply them and accurately?
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:05.279
Because rate shoppers behave differently, right?
00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:13.759
They engage late funnel, they compare products, not brands, um, and they conquert, they convert quickly and then they churn easily.
00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:17.119
So the other one I like to look at are what I call cheaters.
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:27.119
And these are members that you're starting to see are making payments with Wells Fargo more and more and more, or they're making payments, or they're slowly withdrawing money over time.
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:35.200
I think these are the the maybe mid-hanging fruit that I think go they fly under the radar and really easily.
00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:39.279
And what do they care if one day they become a dormant accountant?
00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:40.400
You know, make them care.
00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:41.519
They're not gonna care.
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:54.000
And so um, we like to not quite look outside the box, but look into the corners of the box when it comes to metrics and things that we can look at to strengthen acquisition and then maintain it.
00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:55.759
Michael, that's powerful stuff.
00:17:55.839 --> 00:18:00.400
I mean, I I think just it's it's funny, just customer service, right?
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:00.880
Yeah.
00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:02.079
Oh, that's a huge one.
00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:03.519
With the data too.
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:12.799
But you you've got all these data, and I love that just that positioning of like someone slowly maybe not maintaining their average balance, so to speak.
00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:16.079
Is that an indication that they're gonna shop elsewhere?
00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:16.880
Are they not happy?
00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:21.759
Are they not one's the last touch point that they that they experience with with your credit union?
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:23.440
So yeah, those are those are really cool.
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:25.599
Maybe nothing's going on.
00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:30.000
Yeah, and we check in with them, and it's all of a sudden, oh wow, and they're re-engaged.
00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:31.599
But maybe it's something more serious.
00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:44.079
I'd never forget a story I learned quite a while ago from it, was at a session at Go West, which was then Northwest Credit Union Association, um, about an elderly member who passed.
00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:52.640
And because she had an auto loan, she was a it was her PFI, but she'd like had an auto loan from a long time ago at Wells Fargo and had paid it off.
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:54.160
They sent her family flowers.
00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:56.960
Wells Fargo was on top of it, sent her flowers.
00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:09.920
They closed the credit union account, went over to Wells Fargo, took out all of her funds and went over there just because they were paying attention to the relationship and the behavior and they noticed all this meant this well, this customer had passed.
00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:12.319
Um little things like that.
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:28.240
If if you're paying attention to those metrics, those lifestyle metrics, not to call death lifestyle, but it's part of life, you uh you know, you can be ahead of it in the way of helping people tell their story or at least be supportive of where their story is going next.
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:35.440
So interesting metrics to to sort of dial in, but it has helped us understand behavior so much more.
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:40.400
Yeah, and I think you have this you know fairly robust uh data set.
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:45.839
So it's like, okay, how do you slice and dice that and look beyond more of those traditional metrics?
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:56.720
It honestly reminds me too of just where I have some relatives that were just always had the same insurance carrier and ever thought about shopping it, right?
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:02.079
And you know, the classic like you should shop it every year, and it's like, well, I kind of like my guy or gal.
00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:06.079
Um but it's like, okay, what else is out there, right?
00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:09.759
Or um are you really getting that best price?
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:11.920
Um, and oftentimes you're not, right?
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:13.359
So there's a certain thing.
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:14.559
It's always been this way.
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:14.880
Yeah.
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:16.319
So we will leave it that way.
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:16.799
Yep.
00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:21.599
Creatures of a habit too, generally we um love that.
00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:22.720
There's a really good stuff.
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:29.680
Let's um you know, you talked about evolving toward a lifestyle and a um identity-driven brand.
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:32.880
What what does that mean operationally to you guys?
00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:44.480
I think it goes back to because the goal isn't just transactions, it's the financial relevance um that I spoke to.
00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:53.279
Um so I don't think that having living your mission more, it doesn't remove the need for performance.
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:56.799
I think it changes how your performance is defined and deployed.
00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:05.119
So moving toward that brand style is having everybody on board to understand what exactly our personality is and who we are.
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:10.400
I think that's something with every credit union that they kind of suffer with.
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.839
There are brands out there that you just you know what it is.
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:14.799
You just know what it is.
00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:17.519
I'm not comparing us to McDonald's or anything like that.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:19.759
I'm just saying when you see it, you know it.
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:21.759
Your members should be able to do that.
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:24.319
So should so should your internal members.
00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:27.039
So when you say brand lifestyle, that's what I think of.
00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:34.400
I think that as marketers, we not only need to be living the brand, we need to understand how our membership sees our brand.
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:42.799
And if our brand were a person and walked down the street, would one of our members recognize and how would they acknowledge that?
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:45.680
Um, so I'm not sure if I fully answer that question correctly.
00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:52.640
But um, would you say that that was I mean, you you've been your current credit union for a little while now.
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.640
Would you say that was a priority then?
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:58.960
Or still is still is.
00:21:59.039 --> 00:21:59.440
It's ongoing.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.480
Ongoing.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:01.119
It's ongoing.
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:01.680
Totally.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:01.839
Yeah.
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.880
I think that it should always be ongoing, top of mind.
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:12.240
We're looking at a brand refresh, which is fun and you can throw money at it, but at the end of the day, you you have to have analytics around that.
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:13.519
You know, what is your goal?
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:16.160
What are you, what are we trying to accomplish with this?
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.480
And a lot of times things go in on on they occur in the back background.
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.359
You know, frontline staff might have no idea that we're doing it.
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:28.400
And all of a sudden, here's all these communications, and this is when it's launching, and this is what's happening.
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:30.799
And we're going to be coming into your branch and redoing the walls.
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:32.400
And they go, huh?
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:36.559
You know, so it's really important to have everybody on the same page.
00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:40.799
And that's why I believe it's ongoing, is because I want their input too.
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:54.799
Sometimes it's yes, but or no, but um, however, it's so important to have all of your team involved and your membership involved in how you define what your personality is and your brand lifestyle and how you live it and lead it.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:55.759
Yeah, so true.
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:57.759
I mean, oftentimes you'll get that.
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:00.160
I mean, uh going to more digital.
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:02.559
Hey, we need a web, we need a we need a new website.
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:09.839
It's like well, theoretically, the website should have been evolving this entire time, right?
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:12.799
And I think that's always the case for digital marketing in particular.
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:15.839
It's like, oh yeah, well, the website should be building and evolving.
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:20.319
And the case for a net new is is there, but that's a huge undertaking.
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:22.880
Um, but sometimes you just need to do it.
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:25.680
But without it, it's not a dictatorship, right?
00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:31.119
You need to solicit advice and feedback and make sure that proactive communication is is disseminated.
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:32.240
So yeah.
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:45.519
I think, I mean, for university credit unions specifically and not just the system, I think the probably the biggest transformation underway for us is that historically financial institutions show up at moments of transaction.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:50.720
We're intentionally building relevance in the spaces between those transactions.
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:56.160
Yeah, kind of the but not the calm before the storm, if you will.
00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:59.359
Like kind of a little bit of lull before any like major.
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:00.240
Sure, yeah.
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:00.640
Yeah.
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:01.920
Which is great.
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:02.559
Yeah.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:05.440
Um let's transition a little bit.
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:07.119
I've got some additional questions here.
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:13.839
Um credit unions and kind of the stewardship uh responsibility components.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:16.880
How do you balance mission with performance expectations?
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:21.279
Because I think that's constant is like, yeah, we want to reiterate our mission.
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:24.319
We want to keep the brand stewardship uh focused.
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:27.680
But hey, we've got performance-related metrics.
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:31.279
Um, how do you deal with are those one and the same?
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:32.880
Are they separate?
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:44.799
You know, let's say you've got a pressure from this quarter to make particular numbers, um, but you don't want to loosen or um reduce your reliance on your your mission and values.
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:46.240
Talk to me about that.
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:53.519
Yeah, no, I think I just said this because mission doesn't remove the need for performance.
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:55.119
I think I'd said that.
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:55.759
You did.
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:56.960
I don't even remember what I said.
00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.359
Tyler, you got me talking in circles there you go.
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:08.960
Um I think I think honestly that it's a balancing act, which is in a way port foul portfolio management.
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:15.680
So I'll explain some marketing investments drive immediate ROI, like paid acquisition product campaigns.
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:22.960
Others will drive long-term institutional equity for a lack of a better way of saying it.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:27.119
And that's like financial education, community part uh partnerships.
00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:34.799
Um where I think the mistake occurs is you evaluate both of them through the same lens.
00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:36.000
If that makes sense.
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:47.599
Um so like short-term campaign campaigns are measured in conversion efficiency and purpose investments are measured in lift trust and member retention.
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:53.920
And so we ask, how does it improve growth velocity or how does it improve member well-being?
00:25:54.079 --> 00:25:56.400
But the strongest investments really do both.
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:04.880
So when you align those, you get a scalable mission delivery delivery, not just a symbolic purpose.
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:13.119
So at the end of the day, I think credit unions, when they stop trying to outbank banks, uh, they need to start out meaning them.
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:18.160
Like product parity is inevitable, but mission authentic authenticity really is not.
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:30.319
And I think the institutions that operationalize their purpose, not just promote it, are the ones that turn members into advocates and those transactions into lifelong memberships or relationships.
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:30.799
Yeah.
00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:32.640
Michael, you're a quote machine here.
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:35.759
We got like a ton of don't quote me.
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:36.960
This is all off the air.
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:37.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.720
This is all, yeah, yeah.
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:40.240
Not on the air.
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:41.200
That's hilarious.
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:43.680
Uh I love love where you're headed there.
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:48.799
And um I also want to talk about kind of innovation and what you're seeing.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.839
I know you probably haven't heard of this acronym AI.
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:52.240
I don't know.
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:53.519
It's probably new.
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:56.000
I'm gonna look, I'm gonna chat GTP that's like.
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:57.680
You heard it here first.
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:16.720
What's um, you know, as members are evolving in terms of their research um paths and and obviously um LLMs are becoming more and more ubiquitous, not necessarily nearly as much as we probably think as marketers, right?
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:23.920
People are are using them, but let's be honest, the behemoth that Google is still uh still taking up the majority of the market share.
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:34.799
How are you guys um evolving to um prioritize large language models and make sure that there's a presence there?
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:44.240
Um and then a second part to that question is around how are how are you adapting kind of AI technologies and workflows within uh your your business?
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:55.119
That's those are both very prevalent and hard to answer questions.
00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:00.640
Um I mean, credit unions are clearly going through a demographic shift.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:08.960
Um we have fewer and fewer young members and fewer and fewer older members, but those are the bulk of our membership.
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:13.759
And so we're really looking at how our digital services are adopted.
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:22.319
So we're really digital first, we're calling ourselves a digital first credit union and utilizing omni-channel experiences.
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:27.920
So everything we're integrating online, mobile, self-service, in-branch touch points.
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:33.599
We're looking at closing a couple of locations, not because we're hurting, but we're really following foot traffic.
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:40.799
So from a digital perspective, analytical data that we talked about earlier has been key.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:45.680
Um, we are watching, there's some great um platforms out there.
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:49.759
We're we're we're watching members or potential members live on the website.
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.200
We're looking at journey mapping, which we just completed one project.
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:58.640
So when it comes to a digital adoption and how we're promoting that for membership, it is ongoing.
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:01.759
And I don't think I quite followed your question.
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:06.079
I as far as how I'm answering that does that cover or did did I miss something?
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:09.119
No, I think you know, digital adoption absolutely.
00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:27.839
I mean, I think it's just there's no playbook for optimizing to large language models, but I think it is it is adopting its understanding, it's testing, and it's to a certain set extent tracking prompts and things like that, but which is a lot of synthetic data.
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:31.680
Um so it's directionally accurate, quote unquote.
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:34.000
I wouldn't say even that is something, right?
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:36.880
But I think you're hearing, I'm I'm sure you're hearing more and more.
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:52.319
We're seeing that, and we're we're doing quite a bit um with our credit union clients too, and just around educating ourselves and and understanding how people are first getting the site one and then subsequently how are they converting, right?
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:54.319
Um and what are they dropping off?
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:54.720
Totally.
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:57.920
And what we're what research have they conducted before, right?
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:00.640
In and prior to to making that decision.
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:02.480
So exactly, exactly.
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:03.200
Yeah.
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:11.359
And when it comes to AI and you know where that is and where it will be, because it will be everywhere if it's not already.
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:16.400
We have definitely taken more of a cybersecurity approach to it as an institution.
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:22.480
Um, so right now, marketing has not been as involved in well, I shouldn't say that.
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:28.880
We have been involved in decision making, but there are certain platforms that we're completely blocked from using and we agree with it.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:30.720
Chat GPT being one of them.
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:32.799
I can't even access it on the computer.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:39.440
Not that I'd need to or want to, but marketing, we've been using it for from a very administrative pro uh standpoint.
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:46.640
So while it helps me build out, oh, a quick communication plan, I'm immediately in there and no, no, no.
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:49.680
So I appreciate its capability.
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:54.079
I do really think that it can be dangerous when it comes to authenticity.
00:30:54.319 --> 00:31:01.519
There have already been so many vendors we work with that they if you know they don't want to see anything AI.
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:05.039
If this is AI built, we are not interested.
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:06.960
Um, and vice versa.
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:12.960
So we think our membership deserves the same thing because we tout the real person being there.
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:18.799
So again, Tyler, I'm not poo-pooing on the AI in any way, shape, or form.
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:29.839
I do think that there needs to be eventually some legislation, and especially in finance, um, we start to see a lot of loans coming to us through people looking up chat looking us up.
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:36.240
And hey, I love that chat GTP is finding us and saying, check out thanks for the plug there.
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:42.240
It also concerns me on what else our members are asking them and where else it might be taking them.
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:54.160
And if that information is accurate, I'm not saying humans are perfect, um, but I do think that it's important when at the end of the day the members struggling, they have a person to speak to.
00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:55.279
Yeah, exactly.
00:31:55.599 --> 00:32:09.839
Yeah, and I think that's that's the big thing that we're seeing across the board is just more and more companies inserting AI, thinking that the service needs it, and when actuality wants to keep pressing zero to get to an actual person, right?
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:11.920
And I think that authenticity is is huge.
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:13.759
I'm glad you've you've restated that.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:22.319
But I think you're right, you you just you have to keep a pulse and you have to understand it's your totally regulatory regulated industry, excuse me.
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:29.839
And um, there's there's there's also um you know people that are concerned with their data getting out there.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:33.200
Um, and that's in certain cases tough to rank.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:34.079
Yeah.
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:36.000
That is wildly scary.
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:44.799
We were going to implement a new AI platform into our chat program on our website.
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:48.160
And luckily somebody said, Well, wait a minute, wait a minute.
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:51.759
This crawls everything, including unpublished pages.
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.720
Yeah, like it connects directly to our web vendor.
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:59.680
We we can't do that because there's sensitive information that goes through third parties.
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:03.599
Like when you apply for a loan, you need to put in your social security number.
00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:13.279
I know it's not hard to find things like that anymore, but if we sit there and we somebody uh Nerdowell goes in there and says, What's my social security number?
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:17.279
and it starts feeding all these social security numbers, that's a break in the system.
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:19.839
And AI doesn't know any better because you asked it.
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.880
So the little things like that do scare me.
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:32.240
And that's kind of an improbable situation, but it's not that improbable when you see data breaches pop out just on human error.
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:44.559
If an AI is directly linked to something that's sensitive and it doesn't know what you're asking, but you know what you're asking, you could very likely cause a gigantic data breach if you're not careful.
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:46.319
So that's another scary thing for me.
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:48.720
Not to be doom and gloom, but no, not at all.
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:56.079
But I think again, it's a it's a differentiator to a certain extent around just your prioritization around security and your member, the help of members.
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:57.759
Huge today.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:33:59.200
Security is huge.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:33:59.920
Absolutely.
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:16.960
And I think you know, there the evolution of of AI, and we're we're already starting to see it, and we're building tools out as well, but just where we can essentially have a confined space that is not like a exploratory discovery tool like ChatGPT or Claude, right?
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:28.320
Demon I it's it is confined, like a notebook LM, for example, that is just you're training it up on the data that you're adding to it, and it's not able to source outside things to a certain extent.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.280
So again, and I love seeing more and more of that.
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:35.280
That's that's that's that's my type of music right there.
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:36.480
Yeah, exactly.
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:38.239
Michael, great stuff here.
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:39.599
I really appreciate your time.
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:42.400
Let's uh let's have a couple closing questions here.
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:46.719
Um what uh let's go back to kind of the mission stuff.
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:52.159
What advice would you give to marketing leaders navigating mission and performance at the same time?
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:53.920
I know we talked about that a little bit.
00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:59.840
I know you you talked about consistency and making sure that they're kind of essentially one in the same.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.000
Would you yeah, anything to add there?
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:13.920
Or individuals that, for example, are so fixated on performance and it's so too much so where they they're essentially avoiding or discounting the mission.
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:18.960
I think we see that all all the time, honestly, to fight for those metrics.
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:20.480
It's a good question.
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:22.400
I think we can sum it up in one word.
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:23.280
Authentic.
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:24.480
Be authentic.
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:25.760
That's two works.
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:34.000
But yeah, I think it's important that people revisit their mission every every strategic planning session, every quarter, every month, if they need to.
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:39.519
It's not about all teams where you say, okay, for five bucks, what's our mission statement?
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:43.920
Everybody should know it and everybody should be living it and understand how they're living it.
00:35:44.079 --> 00:36:08.320
I know that's not always easy to do, but again, at the end of the day, if you're you know increasing a rate on something just to make a few more bucks and it's within the Fed, I mean, it makes sense for you, but you're you're cutting out certain members who you know could use that loan, but you're not taking the risk to give them the loan that falls on the people helping people philosophy we were built on.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:11.039
We have to keep the lights on, we have to not be risky.
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:16.079
But if you're not living the mission, if that goes against your mission, you need to revisit.
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:17.599
Do you know your membership?
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:20.719
Are you serving them the way that you were built to serve them?
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:23.119
And if you're not, maybe the mission needs to change.
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:27.280
But either way, I think you need to remain authentic to who you are, who you say you are.
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:36.800
Because again, if you're not able to serve your membership in the way that you are asking every staff member to know and memorize, you're not living it.
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.480
So authors authenticity.
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:41.440
I like how one word turned in like 200 words there.
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:44.559
Yeah, it's like the short short-term gains.
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:47.360
Like, are they are they work it worth it for the long term?
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:47.760
Yeah.
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:49.440
Almost like why are we doing it?
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:51.199
Are we just balancing our portfolio?
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:53.119
Do we want to look good on the call report?
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:58.320
Like what what are our yeah, what are our yeah motives here is what I would say.
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:00.480
Yeah, you you you you nailed it.
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:06.639
Like, yeah, your your executive team's happy, but are is is the are the customers happy long term?
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:08.719
Oh yeah, did you buy something there?
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:09.440
So I love that.
00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:13.119
Yeah, and how many people did we lose loyalty because we made that decision?
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:13.679
Totally.
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:20.719
Could have potentially, you know, it's yeah, it's ongoing, but it's I think authenticity is so valuable.
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:26.159
You can you can say AI here, but I'm sure there's other things perhaps too we can we can think about.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:34.960
But is one what's one shift happening right now that that you think will define the next five years of of financial services marketing specifically?
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:39.440
I think the economy has been definitely a huge piece.
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:42.000
AI, of course, but it already has been.
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:44.719
I can say AI already has been.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:48.159
The economy's been affecting credit unions since the beginning of time.
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:54.000
So um, but I have seen some significant shifts, uh, especially in rate changes.
00:37:54.159 --> 00:38:06.480
I do think that that's gonna be a challenge for certain types of marketing, but it's also an opportunity to where you can put in more storytelling, the meat in between those transactions, not lead with rates, lead with your heart type thing.
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:10.719
This has been something I've heard from many others in the credit union system throughout my time.
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:12.480
So this is not new or innovative.
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:20.239
I think it's just something that we need to revisit as we see certain potentially dangerous economic changes and also educational.
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:25.840
You know, how how are we informing members and potential members of what these changes mean?
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:34.400
And I mean, the even tax season this year, there are a few changes that people don't quite understand that we could be ahead of and we could be on top of.
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:39.679
So I think the economy, but that's always kind of worrying me, yeah, as it is most po most people.
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:46.719
But that's I think in the next five years, that's something we want to and I'm I don't have specifics, so I'll just be very general.
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:49.840
Just blame it on that word and we can go from there.
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:51.599
Trust me, it's the economy's fault.
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:52.880
No, exactly.
00:38:53.119 --> 00:39:00.960
Yeah, but I think you also meant just education, and I think making sure people are educated themselves and making sure that empowered.
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:01.679
Empowered.
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:02.880
Empowered, absolutely.
00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:12.800
And I think that's back to some more of that mission, that authenticity, and that stewardship um that you know I know you guys are are really promoting um actively.
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:15.360
So Michael, it's absolute pleasure.
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:19.920
Really, uh, I'm not I'm not uh lying when I say there's some some really good quotable moments.
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:21.119
Really appreciate your time.
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:23.920
And and I I know you got one or two things going on.
00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:30.559
So um, hey, where where can people interact with the the the university credit union and and find you online?
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:33.679
Yeah, we're at ucu.org.
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:38.400
Um if you want to bug me, you can find me on LinkedIn, just Michael Murdock.
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:39.920
Um I'll pop up.
00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:45.360
Um, but yeah, uh I am a huge collaborator, love cooperation.
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:50.719
So um that's the other thing I love about the difference between big box banks and credit unions.
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:54.719
If I called up Tansley, for example, and said, Hey, give me this, give me the secret.
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:55.840
How did you nail this?
00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:00.000
Yeah, she more than like well, she'd probably hang up with me, but she might no, I'm kidding.
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:07.199
She more than likely would say, Oh, A to Z or let me get you my CMO or or VP or they'll they'll give you everything.
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:10.159
I could call most any shop and they would do that.
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:12.239
So look me up, email me.
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:16.800
I'm happy to chat or be yelled at, whatever makes the most sense.
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:21.360
She actually told us the the secret during our last podcast session, so you'll have to listen to that.
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:23.039
It's it's I'll I will listen.
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:24.239
There, it's it's minute.
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:25.119
No, I'm just joking.
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:27.679
Um, but I no, I think that's also too just again.
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:40.400
I I talked about Kool-Aid, I thought about just like it truly is a community, and you guys, yeah, in a certain, you know, you're not direct competitors within your geographic locations, but you're you're you're sharing, right?
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:43.360
And it's we talked to Pam from Navy Credit Card Union.
00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:48.719
She's she said the same thing about the they're the and they're they're they're everywhere, right?
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:51.039
So um loved hearing that.
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:53.920
And I I I name me another industry that's gonna say that.
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:56.239
I I think there's there's not too many.
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:58.239
So I don't know.
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:00.559
Um brain biology.
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:03.119
I don't yeah, exactly.
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:05.039
Uh Michael, great to see you.
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:05.840
Appreciate your time.
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:06.480
Thanks again.
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:07.760
Yeah, thank you, Tyler.
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:08.320
Awesome.
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:09.519
See ya soon.
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:15.440
Thanks for listening to Built to Convert.
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:18.239
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