Firefly (Part One)

WEBVTT
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Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take
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the sky from me, that's right. No power in the
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verse can stop us from diving into the cult classic
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sci -fi western TV show Firefly and its movie
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sequel Serenity on this very special episode.
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We'll talk about what makes the TV show shiny,
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what's maybe not so solid about it, and take
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a deep dive talking about the show's creator,
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Joss Whedon, and his relationship with the material.
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What's that make us, Heather? Big damn podcaster,
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sir. So here's us on the raggedy edge on this
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episode of Blind Spots and Second Thoughts. Welcome
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to a special episode of Blind Spots and Second
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Thoughts. I'm Dan. I'm Heather. And Heather,
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recently, I needed a comfort show. And it had
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been a while since I watched one of my favorite
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shows, Firefly. So I twisted your arm into binging.
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The whole show, which we've just done, and you
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had not seen it before you had seen the show
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Firefly. What did you know about it? I knew that
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it starred Nathan Fillion, which was primarily
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because there are homages to his character on
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the show Big Mouth. More recently, I had learned
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that there was a character named Kaylee because...
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We named our cat after her. And I also knew that
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Firefly was pretty well known for having been
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canceled after. I didn't realize it was a single
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season, but that it had been canceled prematurely
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in the eyes of many fans. And that's about it.
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Okay. Did you know that it was a space show?
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You didn't know it was a science fiction show
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or a space western or anything like that? How
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I came to Firefly, it was interesting. When the
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show came out, the promos were all about from
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the creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel.
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And I did not care about either of those shows.
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They were not in my wheelhouse. I had not watched
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any of them. So even though... I am a huge science
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fiction nerd at this point. You knew I was already
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very deep into Star Trek and Deep Space Nine
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had just wrapped up. So, you know, this is something
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that would have been in my wheelhouse, but the
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promotion did it no favors. It also aired on
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Friday nights. And this was in 2002. So I would
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have been 21 and not really wanted to. Yeah,
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no, I wasn't. But I was still doing nerdy shit,
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but I was doing nerdy shit outside. Yeah. Not
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at home. And I don't think I had a DVR yet. But
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the promotion didn't really speak to me. Just
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the fact that they were putting from the creator
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of Buffy the Vampire Slayer all over it, which
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put a pin in that. Okay. We're going to come
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back to that. I did end up seeing Serenity in
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theaters, which is the movie we're about to watch.
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I did not know it had a theatrical release. Yes,
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it's a full theatrical movie. Universal apparently
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knew how to promote a movie and Fox did not know
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how to promote a TV show. So they did a very
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good job promoting it as a standalone movie.
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I remember at least knowing that there had been
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a TV show, but I did. I really enjoyed the movie.
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I thought it was a very good movie. I still didn't
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seek out the show until. I think I caught a rerun
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on the SyFy channel. And it was the first episode
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of the show I actually saw was the episode Shindig,
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which is the one where they go to the party to
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get Kaylee the fancy dress. And I remember really
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enjoying it and thinking, I can't believe I slept
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on this. So I ended up you had to do Netflix
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by mail. Oh, wow. I did Netflix by mail for the
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whole show and really got into it. and really
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enjoyed it. And it became one of my favorite
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shows. What was your experience with Firefly?
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I enjoyed it. Yeah, I mean, I love... cast of
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characters. I really enjoy a ragtag group of
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rascals, which I would say applies to this group.
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100%. For sure. And, you know, I never was really
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a sci -fi person myself. I didn't watch Star
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Trek until very recently. I didn't really watch
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any other space shows. I mean, really until I
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met you and we watched now two Star Trek series,
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also The Expanse and now this. Three lower decks.
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Lower decks. Yep. Forgot about that. But I mean,
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I, I, I like it. I like it. So, yeah. So I, I
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really. I've gotten. I have been saturating you.
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You have. Nerdy shit. Yeah. I mean, and I like
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it. I've liked all of it. It was never something
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that I was drawn to on my own. But I mean, generally
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speaking, we've talked on this podcast multiple
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times before about how I like everything almost
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and space dramas, space shows. I wasn't. drawn
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to them, but I've enjoyed them and I enjoyed
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this one. This was my first rewatch of the show
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in a while. I'm not sure if it was the first
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rewatch I've had since everything went down with
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Joss Whedon. Again, stick a pin in that because
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we're coming back. There was a time when I would
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have listed Firefly as my all -time favorite
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show. I wouldn't say it is now. I think there's
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other shows that have come along that have been
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better since, but I would still put it on. the
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shortlist. It's still a show that is really great.
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There are definitely elements of it that haven't
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aged particularly well. The treatment of Inara
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and her profession, even though the show makes
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gestures at sex positivity, it overwhelmingly
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feels mean and a little misogynist in some places.
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There were some other decisions that are particularly
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baffling and haven't aged very well. We'll talk
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about that when we get into the episode breakdown,
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but especially in the last episode. objects in
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space. But even with that stuff that hasn't aged
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well, it does show that it was made in 2002 in
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a lot of places. There are so many elements that
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work. really well. The fantastic cast, the unique
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setting, the perfect mood setting music, and
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the crackling, poetical, and some such dialogue.
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You can see why people are passionate about this
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show and why it had such a passionate fan base,
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and still does to a certain extent today. And
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you can also see the lasting influence that the
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show had on the TV landscape, even though it
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wasn't a particularly successful show at the
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time. really interesting case study almost that
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the show was so short lived that it didn't have
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time to approach some of the pitfalls that other
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shows end up coming to when they're on for longer.
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So it's easy to be devoted to something that
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never reached its full potential and then perhaps
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might have gone off the rails. Right. I think
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that is entirely possible. There were rumors
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and things that I've heard about some potential
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future storylines. that might not have been good
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and might have even aged even more poorly. So
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whether or not those things came to fruition,
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that definitely might have damaged the show's
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estimation. The show has just the right amount
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of episodes. There's some that are kind of, you
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know, they're meh episodes, but they aren't.
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bad. And overall, the show didn't have, like
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you said, long enough to go off the rails or
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to get bad or to jump the shark. I was going
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to say shows don't usually jump the shark until
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they've run out of ideas and end up doing something
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so weird that people are like, okay, I can't
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do this anymore. So when you're only a season
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long and a short season at that, you don't have
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that problem. Yeah. So what do you know about
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series creator? Joss Whedon. You know, I do know
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that he has fallen from grace, I will say, but
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I don't actually remember the specifics of why
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that is. I know that prior to that happening
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and maybe some things coming out about him that
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were less than savory, he was held up as like
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the epitome of a male feminist. And then something
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happened, which I'm assuming you're going to
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tell me. And people were like, oh, wait, maybe
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not. I mean... So back to you. That's about right.
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It is impossible to separate Whedon from the
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show Firefly. In fact, my Blu -ray copy of the
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show very prominently has the title as Joss Whedon's
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Firefly in big letters all over the cover, pretty
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much anywhere that the title is shown. Joss Whedon
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is the middle child of five and a third generation
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legacy screenwriter. His grandfather wrote for
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the Dick Van Dyke Show and... The Donna Reed
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show. I love the Dick Van Dyke show. And his
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father wrote for Alice and Golden Girls. I love
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Golden Girls. Wait, are they problematic too?
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I don't know, honestly. It's safe to say that.
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Joss is or at least was in the family business.
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There's a quote that Joss had in some of the
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behind the scenes materials for Firefly quoted
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his dad. His dad said, Golden Girls is the easiest
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show I've ever written for because it's one joke
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and three reaction shots. Joss himself got his
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break writing on the second season of Roseanne
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and also wrote for the little -remembered sitcom
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version of Parenthood in the early 90s before
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his first screenplay, Buffy the Vampire Slayer,
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got made. Starring Christy Swanson as the titular
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slayer and Paul Peewee Herman as the bad guy
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vampire, the script was meddled with and changed
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severely from Joss's original draft and ended
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up not exactly flopping but not a critical success
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either. Jocelyn continued work as a screenwriter,
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working on the scripts for the original Toy Story
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and the fourth Alien movie, Alien Resurrection,
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and worked as an uncredited script doctor for
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years, including famously punching up the movie
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Speed. Okay. In 1997, Whedon finally got the
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chance to revisit the character of Buffy Summers
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and remade Buffy the Vampire Slayer as a TV show
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for the fledgling WB Network. And it was a huge
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success, leading to a spinoff show, Angel, which
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debuted in 1999. The show is known for its strong
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and complex female characters, something that
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became sort of a Whedon trademark. Surprisingly,
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I did not watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It
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feels... unusual to me that I didn't because
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I was the right age. I was a girl. I liked the
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WB. It had strong female characters. I was interested
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in horror and horror adjacent things. So I'm
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not really sure why that show missed me, but
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it did. I never watched it. It really does seem
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like it would be up your alley. That might be
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a fun future side podcast ideas. Dan and Heather
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watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer for the first
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time. Sure, with all the free time we have. Right.
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Whedon himself also became an early internet
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darling, engaging with fans directly on message
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boards. Is that going to come back later? No,
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not really. But that's part of how he became...
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Because that's taken down some other people.
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That's part of how he got that reputation as
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sort of the nerd god, because he would interact
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with fans and share with them behind the scenes
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anecdotes. So that combined with the material,
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people... really started to elevate him as a
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show creator. While Buffy and Angel both aired
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on the WB, they were produced by 20th Century
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Fox Television, who invited Whedon to pitch another
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series, which they could sell to their own network,
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Fox. Whedon was inspired by a book about the
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Battle of Gettysburg and the Reconstruction Era
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of the Civil War and what it would be like to
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write about characters who had fought on the
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losing side of a war. Okay. I mean, I see. where
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that goes but yeah it's interesting that the
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civil war was the one where he was like what
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is it like on the other side right yeah I don't
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love that that's not great no so Fox did pick
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up the show that was Firefly but we talked about
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they had a hard time promoting it episodes were
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aired in four by three instead of the more modern
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widescreen format they were aired out of order
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and on Friday nights and in fact three of the
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produced 14 episodes were never shown on TV so
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ratings were so abysmal that the cast crew learned
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that the show was cancelled before they even
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wrapped production. Aww. Whedon was also writing
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and producing Angel and Buffy at the same time
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that Firefly was going on. He would continue
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to do so for several more years after the cancellation
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of Firefly, along with writing for Marvel Comics.
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He then got a chance to revisit the crew of Serenity
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with the big budget feature Serenity, which we're
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about to watch, in 2005. Despite the show's passionate
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fans and even successfully finding some new people,
00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:01.159
in the audience, including myself, the movie
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just barely eked out a profit grossing just over
00:14:04.820 --> 00:14:09.919
$40 million on a budget of $39 million. So that
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is technically a flop when you factor in marketing
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and everything else. Whedon then went on to create
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the TV show Dollhouse, write and direct Dr. Horrible's
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sing -along blog during the 2007 -2008 writers'
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strike, which was basically just something they
00:14:24.820 --> 00:14:27.340
did for fun because they were bored and couldn't
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work. and co -wrote the screenplay for a movie
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I know you've seen, The Cabin in the Woods. Ah,
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I do love Cabin in the Woods. Whedon was then
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tapped to write and direct Marvel's Avengers
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movie, which we are going to watch very soon,
00:14:41.460 --> 00:14:44.500
also for this podcast, despite his only feature
00:14:44.500 --> 00:14:48.299
he had directed to date being Serenity, and technically
00:14:48.299 --> 00:14:50.940
a flop. As of this recording, we have not gotten
00:14:50.940 --> 00:14:53.059
to the Avengers in our MCU watch through, so
00:14:53.059 --> 00:14:55.200
I won't spend too much time talking about it,
00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:59.259
but needless to say, that movie was a huge success
00:14:59.259 --> 00:15:02.480
and got Whedon a job punching up MCU movies for
00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:05.559
the following phase of the Marvel Cinematic Universe
00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:08.340
and writing and directing the second Avengers
00:15:08.340 --> 00:15:11.440
movie. We'll talk more about that when we get
00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:13.720
to that episode and watch that one. But the second
00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:17.879
Avengers movie released in 2015 was not as critically
00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:21.000
well received as the first for several reasons.
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:24.759
And that was the beginning of the end for Joss
00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:28.789
Whedon. In 2016, he was divorced from his wife
00:15:28.789 --> 00:15:33.710
of 16 years, Kai Cole. In May of 2017, Warner
00:15:33.710 --> 00:15:36.809
Brothers brought in Whedon to do extensive rewrites
00:15:36.809 --> 00:15:40.269
and reshoots for their struggling Justice League
00:15:40.269 --> 00:15:42.610
movie, hoping that lightning could strike twice
00:15:42.610 --> 00:15:45.909
and Whedon could write the struggling DCEU by
00:15:45.909 --> 00:15:48.950
taking over for Zack Snyder and doing what he
00:15:48.950 --> 00:15:53.110
did for the Avengers for DC's stable of superheroes.
00:15:53.549 --> 00:15:57.049
Whedon, however, is about as opposite of a writer
00:15:57.049 --> 00:16:01.029
and filmmaker as Snyder. So the reshoots only
00:16:01.029 --> 00:16:03.649
ended up making a Frankenstein's Monsters mess
00:16:03.649 --> 00:16:07.269
of a movie instead of a cohesive whole or something
00:16:07.269 --> 00:16:11.190
as successful and cultural lightning strike like
00:16:11.190 --> 00:16:14.070
the Avengers. In August of 2017, just a couple
00:16:14.070 --> 00:16:17.269
of months before the Justice League film premiered,
00:16:17.289 --> 00:16:20.049
Whedon's ex -wife, Kai Kull, penned a blog for
00:16:20.049 --> 00:16:23.490
the rap titled Joss Whedon is a Hypocrite Preaching
00:16:23.490 --> 00:16:26.799
Feminist Ideal. In it, she outed Whedon as having
00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:30.799
multiple affairs with actresses, co -workers,
00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:34.759
and fans during their marriage and using his
00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:39.299
feminist writing credentials as a shield from
00:16:39.299 --> 00:16:42.840
potential criticism. The closing paragraph of
00:16:42.840 --> 00:17:05.779
her letter goes, But no matter what happens or
00:17:05.779 --> 00:17:08.079
how people interpret the statement, I no longer
00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:10.279
have to carry the burden of Joss's long -term
00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:14.950
deceit. and confessions. I am free. Wow. Then
00:17:14.950 --> 00:17:19.670
in July of 2020, well after the release of the
00:17:19.670 --> 00:17:22.470
debacle of the movie that is The Justice League,
00:17:22.690 --> 00:17:25.730
Ray Fisher, who played Cyborg in that movie,
00:17:25.910 --> 00:17:30.089
very publicly accused Whedon of gross, abusive,
00:17:30.490 --> 00:17:34.069
unprofessional, and completely unacceptable behavior
00:17:34.069 --> 00:17:36.710
during the production of Justice League. Is that
00:17:36.710 --> 00:17:39.170
a woman? No. Okay. Ray Fisher is a black man,
00:17:39.230 --> 00:17:42.829
though. Oh, okay. Oh. Okay. This snowballed with
00:17:42.829 --> 00:17:46.769
corroborating stories from Gal Gadot, who played
00:17:46.769 --> 00:17:49.789
Wonder Woman, and other cast members of Buffy
00:17:49.789 --> 00:17:52.609
and Angel, notably Charisma Carpenter, Amber
00:17:52.609 --> 00:17:56.410
Benson, and Michelle Trachtenberg. I just don't
00:17:56.410 --> 00:17:59.630
understand how they think... Well, they did get
00:17:59.630 --> 00:18:01.910
away with it for a long time. Yeah. But like...
00:18:02.059 --> 00:18:05.579
If I were them, I would just be so nervous. The
00:18:05.579 --> 00:18:09.900
gist of the allegations is toxic workplace. And
00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:13.559
no one accused him of anything non -consensual.
00:18:13.619 --> 00:18:17.680
So he's more Dan Harmon and less Harvey Weinstein.
00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:20.339
Yeah, you know, so like here's the thing is that
00:18:20.339 --> 00:18:22.980
it is quite a world that we live in when I'm
00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:25.339
hearing these stories and I'm like, okay, well,
00:18:25.460 --> 00:18:29.640
he cheated on his wife a bunch and he was a dictator
00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:33.619
on sex. But at least he didn't rape anybody.
00:18:34.380 --> 00:18:40.900
That's exactly it. Oh, my God. I'm so tired.
00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:44.859
That we know of, by the way. Well, in January
00:18:44.859 --> 00:18:50.000
of 2022, Whedon sat down with Leila Shapiro for
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:53.259
an interview featured in Vulture that was seemingly
00:18:53.259 --> 00:18:56.019
supposed to be his mea culpa and the start of
00:18:56.019 --> 00:18:57.920
his journey back into Hollywood good graces.
00:18:57.940 --> 00:19:02.180
However, it's not a good look for him. He comes
00:19:02.180 --> 00:19:06.140
off very badly, very pretentious, not particularly
00:19:06.140 --> 00:19:09.339
self -aware in the article. I'm going to read
00:19:09.339 --> 00:19:12.150
you a few quotes. that i pulled from the article
00:19:12.150 --> 00:19:14.930
so this is this is the article's author back
00:19:14.930 --> 00:19:17.369
when he was still a god the kind that is contractually
00:19:17.369 --> 00:19:19.690
obligated to promote network television shows
00:19:19.690 --> 00:19:22.710
at press junkets whedon was asked over and over
00:19:22.710 --> 00:19:25.170
to explain why he wrote stories about strong
00:19:25.170 --> 00:19:28.230
women For years, he would answer by talking about
00:19:28.230 --> 00:19:31.250
his mother. Lee Stearns, who died in 1991, was
00:19:31.250 --> 00:19:33.890
an activist and unpublished novelist who taught
00:19:33.890 --> 00:19:36.329
history at an elite private school in the Bronx.
00:19:36.549 --> 00:19:40.089
In 2006, Equality Now presented Whedon with an
00:19:40.089 --> 00:19:43.529
award at an evening dedicated to honoring men
00:19:43.529 --> 00:19:47.029
on the front lines of feminism. In his speech,
00:19:47.230 --> 00:19:49.809
Whedon referred to his mother as extraordinary,
00:19:50.349 --> 00:19:56.720
inspirational, tough, cool, and sexy. Why? Sitting
00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:58.660
in his living room, he told me he sees a different
00:19:58.660 --> 00:20:01.460
side of her now. She was a remarkable woman and
00:20:01.460 --> 00:20:04.119
an inspiring person, he said. But sometimes those
00:20:04.119 --> 00:20:07.579
are hard people to be raised by. Okay, so I can
00:20:07.579 --> 00:20:11.500
actually understand that in theory, but that's
00:20:11.500 --> 00:20:13.839
not the way to get back into everybody's good
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:17.390
graces. Yeah. My mommy was too busy fighting
00:20:17.390 --> 00:20:20.930
for women's rights to take care of me. The article,
00:20:20.930 --> 00:20:23.509
the article is a doozy and it's worth a read.
00:20:23.569 --> 00:20:26.210
So some other quotes from the article. He admired
00:20:26.210 --> 00:20:28.390
strong women like his mother, yet he discovered
00:20:28.390 --> 00:20:31.630
he was capable of hurting them, usually by sleeping
00:20:31.630 --> 00:20:34.230
with them and ghosting or whatever. That's in
00:20:34.230 --> 00:20:37.869
quotes. He said that? He would later tell his
00:20:37.869 --> 00:20:41.009
biographer that this duality gave him an advantage
00:20:41.009 --> 00:20:44.089
over the girls and his college class on feminism
00:20:44.089 --> 00:20:46.390
when it came to discussing relations between
00:20:46.390 --> 00:20:49.269
the sexes. I have seen the enemy, he said, and
00:20:49.269 --> 00:20:54.250
he's in my brain. Another passage from this article.
00:20:54.369 --> 00:20:56.710
In reference to Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the
00:20:56.710 --> 00:20:58.950
author writes, He wanted to tell a story about
00:20:58.950 --> 00:21:01.170
someone who turns out to be important despite
00:21:01.170 --> 00:21:03.529
the fact that no one takes that person seriously.
00:21:03.950 --> 00:21:06.029
It took me a long time to realize I was writing
00:21:06.029 --> 00:21:08.910
about me, he told me, and that my feeling of
00:21:08.910 --> 00:21:12.069
powerlessness and constant anxiety was at the
00:21:12.069 --> 00:21:14.829
heart of everything. His avatar was not a fearful
00:21:14.829 --> 00:21:17.150
young man, however, but a gorgeous girl with
00:21:17.150 --> 00:21:19.990
extraordinary courage. He wanted to be her and
00:21:19.990 --> 00:21:24.650
he wanted to fuck her. Ugh, what? I have anxiety.
00:21:24.789 --> 00:21:27.990
I don't relate to that at all. The last passage
00:21:27.990 --> 00:21:30.650
I want to read from that article, the author
00:21:30.650 --> 00:21:33.569
wrote, Whedon once wrote a line that could have
00:21:33.569 --> 00:21:35.990
served as a warning to all of us. In Firefly,
00:21:36.089 --> 00:21:38.789
one of the crew members, Jane, accidentally tosses
00:21:38.789 --> 00:21:41.210
the spoils of a botched robbery into the hands
00:21:41.210 --> 00:21:43.769
of the town's poor. Jane is not a good man, but
00:21:43.769 --> 00:21:45.789
when he returns to the town years later, he sees
00:21:45.789 --> 00:21:48.150
its residents have erected a statue in its honor.
00:21:48.289 --> 00:21:50.549
When he confides to the crew's captain that he's
00:21:50.549 --> 00:21:52.630
unsettled by this development, the captain just
00:21:52.630 --> 00:21:54.710
stares into the distance. It's my estimation
00:21:54.710 --> 00:21:57.190
that every man ever got a statue made of him
00:21:57.190 --> 00:21:59.130
was one kind of son of a bitch or another. He
00:21:59.130 --> 00:22:01.170
says, ain't about you, Jane. It's about what
00:22:01.170 --> 00:22:04.670
they need. I caught this article when it first
00:22:04.670 --> 00:22:08.130
came out. I wanted to read to you some choice
00:22:08.130 --> 00:22:11.890
Reddit comments about this article when it came
00:22:11.890 --> 00:22:15.509
out in 2022. The top comment on the television
00:22:15.509 --> 00:22:19.349
thread for this article, holy moly, this interview.
00:22:21.740 --> 00:22:24.619
That does seem to sum it up. His publicist is
00:22:24.619 --> 00:22:27.500
hitting the hard liquor tonight. The next comment
00:22:27.500 --> 00:22:29.720
down. It feels like his publicist set the whole
00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:32.039
thing up to cleanse his image, but Whedon didn't
00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:35.359
get the memo. What was he thinking? I don't know.
00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:38.000
Another comment. I encourage folks to actually
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.299
read this thing because I promise you are not
00:22:40.299 --> 00:22:43.119
prepared for how divorced from reality he sounds
00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:45.759
here. The headline doesn't even begin to reflect
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:48.400
the scale of this implosion. Another comment
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.019
after that. I also feel like the writer was trying
00:22:51.019 --> 00:22:53.980
hard to remain unbiased, but was given nothing
00:22:53.980 --> 00:22:59.359
positive to work with. Which is true. But my
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:01.759
two favorite quotes that I pulled from Reddit
00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:04.559
that really do summarize all of this. The first
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:08.200
is from Good Old Marshmallow. Oh. And Good Old
00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:11.000
Marshmallow said, He's such an embodiment of
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:14.500
early 2000s nerd culture, it's not even funny.
00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:17.380
I think people found that refreshing in contrast
00:23:17.380 --> 00:23:20.680
to how fratty mainstream culture was and found
00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:23.519
his different brand of sexism as some kind of
00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:25.980
feminism because it was different. It's aged
00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:28.769
really poorly. though as has he I'm not going
00:23:28.769 --> 00:23:31.410
to act like I didn't love Firefly and Buffy but
00:23:31.410 --> 00:23:34.640
eh yeah And this other quote is from a deleted
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:36.119
user. Really good points, good old Marshmallow.
00:23:36.339 --> 00:23:38.220
Yeah. This other quote is from a deleted user,
00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:40.460
so don't know who actually originally posted
00:23:40.460 --> 00:23:43.059
it. But Whedon had sketch rumors years before
00:23:43.059 --> 00:23:45.460
Justice League. This isn't new. It's just back
00:23:45.460 --> 00:23:48.160
in the 2000s. A showrunner having affairs with
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:50.380
actresses and belittling his crew on a power
00:23:50.380 --> 00:23:53.359
trip wasn't taken seriously. Joss is a classic
00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:56.240
example of the nerd who never got female attention
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:59.099
and was insignificant his whole life, finally
00:23:59.099 --> 00:24:01.599
getting power and then being a total piece of
00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:03.799
shit to everyone. because he had an inferiority
00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:06.640
complex he needed to compensate for. Yeah. And
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:10.200
realizing that he could trick women into thinking
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:14.500
that he was something that he wasn't. Yeah. Whedon
00:24:14.500 --> 00:24:17.339
was quietly removed from the promotion of his
00:24:17.339 --> 00:24:20.740
last show, The Nevers, on HBO. And as of the
00:24:20.740 --> 00:24:23.420
recording of this podcast, has been very publicly
00:24:23.420 --> 00:24:26.740
quiet. As far as I can tell, he has no involvement
00:24:26.740 --> 00:24:29.859
in the upcoming Buffy revival besides his original
00:24:29.859 --> 00:24:32.660
created by credit and has nothing in the works.
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:36.019
You know, I have a complicated relationship with
00:24:36.019 --> 00:24:40.619
cancel culture because I understand the anger
00:24:40.619 --> 00:24:45.579
and the hurt and the frustration that underlies
00:24:45.579 --> 00:24:48.480
wanting to cancel someone for doing something
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:51.519
egregious. And that is relevant at all of the
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:53.299
different levels of things that people can do
00:24:53.299 --> 00:24:57.960
that are hurtful and hateful. But I also don't
00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:00.079
like the idea of living in a world where somebody
00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.140
can redeem themselves. But the problem is that
00:25:03.140 --> 00:25:08.920
they never do. You have to contrast Whedon with
00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:12.539
Dan Harmon. It's actually a perfect contrast
00:25:12.539 --> 00:25:15.660
because Dan Harmon also really came up with community
00:25:15.660 --> 00:25:21.119
in the mid 2000s, was a nerd hero, had problematic,
00:25:21.259 --> 00:25:23.940
but consensual, but problematic relationships
00:25:23.940 --> 00:25:28.059
with women and coworkers, and was also an asshole
00:25:28.059 --> 00:25:32.000
and a piece of shit. But he very publicly did
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:36.299
the work. He apologized to the coworkers. that
00:25:36.299 --> 00:25:39.720
he harmed and the women that he wronged and really
00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:43.359
put in the work and has had a successful career
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:45.500
resurgence, co -creating shows like Rick and
00:25:45.500 --> 00:25:48.700
Morty and just working in television in general.
00:25:48.819 --> 00:25:52.680
So he managed, it's a night and day contrast
00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:55.839
between somebody who realized that they fucked
00:25:55.839 --> 00:26:01.119
up and put in the work to make amends and somebody
00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:04.420
who didn't really. do that. Yeah. An apology
00:26:04.420 --> 00:26:08.339
is not an apology if you don't truly understand
00:26:08.339 --> 00:26:11.339
what you did wrong. Which was part of the problem.
00:26:11.539 --> 00:26:13.680
Again, I would encourage you to read that article
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:15.500
at some point. I don't know if my blood pressure
00:26:15.500 --> 00:26:19.420
can take it. So here's my opinion on Whedon.
00:26:19.579 --> 00:26:21.900
I'm not going to give him a full throated defense.
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:25.440
No, I would hope not. I think he's a very creative
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:27.599
writer who has a knack for witty dialogue and
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.740
colorful characters. I dove in to some of the
00:26:30.740 --> 00:26:33.359
behind the scenes stuff. on the Firefly discs
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.200
in preparation for this. And my impression of
00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:39.019
Whedon is that he is what I would call an alpha
00:26:39.019 --> 00:26:42.259
nerd. I have known people like this, anyone who's
00:26:42.259 --> 00:26:45.220
been around geeky groups, especially in the 2000s
00:26:45.220 --> 00:26:47.619
and the 2010s when nerd culture was really starting
00:26:47.619 --> 00:26:50.279
to come into its own. They probably know somebody
00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:53.640
like this. It's this archetype of a nerdy guy,
00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:57.119
a nerdy white guy who is smart, but has this
00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:02.049
deep sense of self -loathing. but through charisma
00:27:02.049 --> 00:27:04.710
or talent somehow gets a group of people who
00:27:04.710 --> 00:27:07.410
look to him. Like I've known a couple of people.
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:10.640
Like this. This feeds his ego. So you get this
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:14.539
toxic combination of self -loathing and narcissism.
00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:19.720
And it manifests in both cloying, self -deprecating
00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:24.240
behavior, but also bullying and jockeying and
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:27.660
picking on people who are below him in the nerd
00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:30.619
picking order. You know, it is. It's interesting.
00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:32.759
I don't want to delve too much into this because
00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:35.559
I feel like there's just too much to mine here.
00:27:35.700 --> 00:27:39.140
But this... That, you know, until relatively
00:27:39.140 --> 00:27:43.900
recently, nerd culture was truly uncool. And
00:27:43.900 --> 00:27:47.940
then it shifted to being subversively cool. And
00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:52.089
honestly, Whedon is a huge part of. how that
00:27:52.089 --> 00:27:55.190
happened of making that mainstream. Yeah. And
00:27:55.190 --> 00:27:58.730
I feel like we've touched on this before in other
00:27:58.730 --> 00:28:01.549
episodes where it's like, I mean, there's definitely
00:28:01.549 --> 00:28:04.329
been a shift. I forget what episode it was that
00:28:04.329 --> 00:28:05.869
we talked about this, where I said it would be
00:28:05.869 --> 00:28:09.190
weirder now to have not engaged in some form
00:28:09.190 --> 00:28:12.710
of, you know, some nerdy fandom. Like people
00:28:12.710 --> 00:28:15.670
would side -eye you for never having any nerdy
00:28:15.670 --> 00:28:18.549
interests. Whereas until, you know, within our
00:28:18.549 --> 00:28:21.420
lifetime, I feel like. Oh, easily. So like within
00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:26.339
this century. So men who were on the front lines
00:28:26.339 --> 00:28:29.099
of that shift, like what does that do to your
00:28:29.099 --> 00:28:31.519
psyche and to your just, I don't necessarily
00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:33.240
want to go too far down that rabbit hole because
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:35.500
it sounds kind of depressing, but it's also interesting.
00:28:35.799 --> 00:28:39.799
Yeah. Watching him on the behind the scenes stuff,
00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:43.119
his behavior fits that archetype. Those guys
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:47.500
that I knew that were like that, he acts just
00:28:47.500 --> 00:28:50.519
like them. He's got this sweaty nerve. energy,
00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:53.059
but he also clearly thinks he's smarter than
00:28:53.059 --> 00:28:55.680
everyone in the room. And it's that particular
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:00.079
brand of toxicity, especially if you don't recognize
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:02.619
it or haven't been around it before. It doesn't
00:29:02.619 --> 00:29:06.339
necessarily read as toxic right away. Now, people,
00:29:06.460 --> 00:29:09.220
I think, are a lot more wise to it and have a
00:29:09.220 --> 00:29:12.829
lot more time processing that. It doesn't necessarily
00:29:12.829 --> 00:29:17.349
come off right away, especially if he's nice
00:29:17.349 --> 00:29:21.509
to you or if you're not somebody who is as susceptible
00:29:21.509 --> 00:29:24.750
to bullying. And it could be like either sometimes
00:29:24.750 --> 00:29:27.289
people are they give as good as they get and
00:29:27.289 --> 00:29:29.990
they're kind of OK with someone who has a mean
00:29:29.990 --> 00:29:32.430
streak and a mean sense of humor, which is one
00:29:32.430 --> 00:29:35.680
of the things he's been accused of being. extraordinarily
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:38.539
mean and having a mean sense of humor. But also,
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:40.700
you know, if you're the kind of person that that
00:29:40.700 --> 00:29:43.140
doesn't bother, then you're not necessarily going
00:29:43.140 --> 00:29:46.680
to have a problem with it. Or if you're the kind
00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:48.819
of person that one of those alpha nerd types
00:29:48.819 --> 00:29:51.640
doesn't feel like they can bully, then he's not
00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:53.619
going to bully you and you're not going to experience
00:29:53.619 --> 00:29:57.400
it. So it's just interesting to watch that, especially
00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:00.119
now with the benefit of hindsight and see, okay,
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:04.519
yeah, he's that guy. And those Those kinds of
00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:07.960
guys don't handle success and attention well
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:12.859
in the context of just normal life. Right. But
00:30:12.859 --> 00:30:16.099
he was on top. He was the king of nerd mountain.
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:21.299
for a decade or so. And having every single nerd
00:30:21.299 --> 00:30:24.759
on the planet basically worship him, for lack
00:30:24.759 --> 00:30:27.079
of a better word, could not have been good for
00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:31.880
his ego at all. So I can understand both how
00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:35.059
it got to that point and how extraordinarily
00:30:35.059 --> 00:30:39.140
fucking toxic he must have gotten at some point.
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:42.259
Yeah. And it can be hard to come back from that,
00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:44.599
but it also just seems like he hasn't tried.
00:30:44.859 --> 00:30:48.519
That article was from when? 2022. 2022. All right.
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:50.480
So we're not that far removed from that. Nope.
00:30:50.539 --> 00:30:52.980
And that attempt really missed the mark. Yeah.
00:30:53.380 --> 00:30:57.339
But you can, with that energy and seeing him,
00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:00.539
there's this duality of needing love and approval,
00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:03.619
but thinking he's above it. And, you know, I'm
00:31:03.619 --> 00:31:06.259
sure you've probably known people like that.
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:07.940
I think there's space to hold multiple things
00:31:07.940 --> 00:31:10.240
about his writing. It's safe to say that he does
00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:13.279
write. complex, strong characters, especially
00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:15.900
female characters during a period where that
00:31:15.900 --> 00:31:18.839
was lacking. But there's also a streak of misogyny
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:20.980
behind that feminism. Some people have pointed
00:31:20.980 --> 00:31:24.839
out that a lot of his female characters get their
00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:27.819
power and get their strength through trauma and
00:31:27.819 --> 00:31:30.920
the male characters not as much. It's easy to
00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:33.460
see if you look that he has a very complicated
00:31:33.460 --> 00:31:36.759
relationship with women, both admiring them and
00:31:36.759 --> 00:31:39.940
feeling some anger and resentment towards them.
00:31:40.460 --> 00:31:43.299
Those things are not mutually exclusive for anybody.
00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:46.460
I mean, for any man. Yeah. But amped up. Oh,
00:31:46.460 --> 00:31:49.910
yeah. No, for sure. And. when you view his work
00:31:49.910 --> 00:31:52.789
through that lens, especially after the interview
00:31:52.789 --> 00:31:55.509
and Vulture, it really does bring a lot of things
00:31:55.509 --> 00:31:57.950
into focus, I think. Yeah, I mean, all of this
00:31:57.950 --> 00:32:00.650
is giving me this picture of him where it's like
00:32:00.650 --> 00:32:03.250
people praised him for writing strong female
00:32:03.250 --> 00:32:05.970
characters. He can recognize the strength of
00:32:05.970 --> 00:32:09.269
women and hate them for it and want to punish
00:32:09.269 --> 00:32:13.170
them for it. And it sounds like that's the parts
00:32:13.170 --> 00:32:15.950
of him. Yeah, I think that it's parts of him.
00:32:16.009 --> 00:32:18.339
I think he has this underlying... resentment
00:32:18.339 --> 00:32:21.220
probably related to his there's there's a very
00:32:21.220 --> 00:32:23.160
freudian streak in here and that's why i thought
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:26.319
that article was very elucidating and re -watching
00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:28.759
firefly now with the context of that article
00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:30.839
some things really stood out when you view the
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:34.019
treatment of anara through the lens of waden
00:32:34.019 --> 00:32:37.380
the creator you you can see a need to both want
00:32:37.380 --> 00:32:40.279
to be the cool guy who is super cool with a sex
00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:42.819
worker as a romantic interest but also really
00:32:42.819 --> 00:32:45.440
wanting to punish her and belittle her for having
00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:48.140
such a profession yeah it's Really hard to divorce
00:32:48.140 --> 00:32:51.000
that from the alpha nerd behind the camera. There
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:52.839
are some other things that aren't great that
00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:55.039
haven't aged very well at all. For instance,
00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:57.839
the show heavily uses Chinese, but there are
00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:01.740
barely any Asian characters featured at all.
00:33:01.900 --> 00:33:04.839
I think the only character that stood out to
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:07.640
me that's an Asian character that has any lines
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:11.220
is one of the whores in Heart of Gold. Don't
00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:13.289
you call them that. That's what they are. You
00:33:13.289 --> 00:33:16.089
can call them sex workers. Oh, okay. It was 2002.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:19.839
You don't have to use that language just because
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:22.420
they did on the show. Also, from watching the
00:33:22.420 --> 00:33:24.460
other behind the scenes stuff, it's clear that
00:33:24.460 --> 00:33:27.240
Joss does have a particular mean streak of humor,
00:33:27.339 --> 00:33:29.640
which is also an alpha nerd characteristic. The
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.019
cast of Firefly seems to have largely been a
00:33:32.019 --> 00:33:34.740
gives as good as they get set. And while no one
00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:36.819
really stuck their necks out for Whedon when
00:33:36.819 --> 00:33:39.900
the accusations started flying, no one from Firefly
00:33:39.900 --> 00:33:42.819
piled on either. The most I could find from Firefly
00:33:42.819 --> 00:33:45.480
was one of the writers, Jose Molina, saying that
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.849
Joss could be a bully in the. writer's room and
00:33:47.849 --> 00:33:50.710
one time relentlessly mocked a female writer
00:33:50.710 --> 00:33:54.640
to tears so that's Do you happen to know how
00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:58.240
many seasons Buffy the Vampire Slayer was on
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:02.519
and or Angel? I believe Buffy was eight. Okay.
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:05.240
Again, I return to my earlier statement about
00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:08.559
how much can happen in a single season. Seven
00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:11.159
seasons for Buffy. If Firefly had gone on for
00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:14.119
seven seasons, perhaps the cast and crew would
00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:16.659
have had more to say. That is possible. He also
00:34:16.659 --> 00:34:20.659
wasn't the showrunner on Firefly. That was Tim
00:34:20.659 --> 00:34:22.860
Minear. So we'll talk more about that. that in
00:34:22.860 --> 00:34:25.519
a second i also listened to one of the episode
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:28.900
commentaries with just whedon and he is that
00:34:28.900 --> 00:34:32.530
his brother Joss Whedon? No, I'm kidding. I'm
00:34:32.530 --> 00:34:35.349
sorry. He does have a brother named Jed. Oh.
00:34:36.730 --> 00:34:40.070
With just Joss Whedon on it talking about the
00:34:40.070 --> 00:34:42.909
episode. And it's just, it's not great. Which
00:34:42.909 --> 00:34:46.389
episode was it? It was Objects in Space. You
00:34:46.389 --> 00:34:49.750
can tell he thinks a lot of what he's saying
00:34:49.750 --> 00:34:54.789
is very self -important. And it's just, it's
00:34:54.789 --> 00:34:56.809
something that I might have thought he was very
00:34:56.809 --> 00:35:00.179
smart in 2010 or when. whenever he recorded it.
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.599
And now looking back at it, I'm like, oh yeah,
00:35:02.619 --> 00:35:04.380
no, this dude's just kind of full of himself
00:35:04.380 --> 00:35:07.300
and is a little, it's cringey. It's not great.
00:35:07.460 --> 00:35:09.940
So even with all of that said, I am a believer
00:35:09.940 --> 00:35:12.500
in death of the author and that the creative
00:35:12.500 --> 00:35:15.500
work can stand on its own, which as someone who
00:35:15.500 --> 00:35:17.880
loved the Harry Potter series, I'm sure that
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:21.360
you can appreciate. I mean, yeah, but I have
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:25.199
very little desire to revisit Harry Potter as
00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:28.900
a result of... Jowling, cowling, rowling. Yes.
00:35:28.940 --> 00:35:30.760
We don't need to get too much into this, but
00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:32.559
there are also differences in terms of what type
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:34.800
of art you're talking about. I mean, this is
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:37.739
a person who's working on a show or a movie is
00:35:37.739 --> 00:35:41.739
not a sole creative force. There's not a sole
00:35:41.739 --> 00:35:44.719
creative force in that type of media. An author
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:47.739
of a book, it's a little bit different. So I
00:35:47.739 --> 00:35:50.420
do see what you're saying. No, absolutely. Like
00:35:50.420 --> 00:35:53.320
I said before, Firefly hasn't aged as amazingly
00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:56.019
as one would hope, but even now rewatching it
00:35:56.019 --> 00:35:59.269
with all of the context of Joss Whedon. I still
00:35:59.269 --> 00:36:01.170
love and appreciate the things that it does well
00:36:01.170 --> 00:36:04.469
as a show, even if parts of it still do make
00:36:04.469 --> 00:36:07.929
me cringe a little bit and recoil. Overall, I
00:36:07.929 --> 00:36:11.309
think it's still a very good show, if not a great
00:36:11.309 --> 00:36:16.210
show. I had some issues with Inara's storyline
00:36:16.210 --> 00:36:19.030
and the way that she was treated, for sure. I
00:36:19.030 --> 00:36:23.670
had issues with River, and admittedly, I am probably
00:36:23.670 --> 00:36:27.550
bringing some of my own baggage to my perception
00:36:27.550 --> 00:36:31.090
of River's character because she was medically
00:36:31.090 --> 00:36:35.539
abused, but she demonstrates a lot of characteristics
00:36:35.539 --> 00:36:37.800
of mental illness, which is, you know, I have
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:41.159
my own perspective on that. I view that through
00:36:41.159 --> 00:36:44.099
a very particular lens. But overall, I didn't
00:36:44.099 --> 00:36:49.000
feel icky until the last episode. We'll get into
00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:51.159
that because I do want to talk about each episode.
00:36:51.500 --> 00:36:54.340
Even the episode where they go to the brothel,
00:36:54.460 --> 00:36:57.460
I didn't feel overall that icky. Yeah. Maybe
00:36:57.460 --> 00:37:00.780
at points. Well, Jane is a little icky in that
00:37:00.780 --> 00:37:03.579
episode. Yeah, but I mean, I don't like Jane,
00:37:03.639 --> 00:37:06.480
so I'm just like. Okay, whatever. I mean, I consistently
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:10.000
said fuck off to Jane. I just would loudly proclaim
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:12.800
that. You did. Pretty much once an episode at
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:16.179
least. So even though Joss Whedon's name is literally
00:37:16.179 --> 00:37:18.719
all over the show, he was not the showrunner.
00:37:18.739 --> 00:37:22.099
The showrunner was Tim Minear, who also went
00:37:22.099 --> 00:37:24.599
on to be involved in some other one season wonders
00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:27.900
that I'm a huge fan of. Terriers and The Chicago
00:37:27.900 --> 00:37:30.679
Code, which were both canceled after one season.
00:37:30.860 --> 00:37:33.199
He also made another Fox show starring Nathan
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:35.989
Fillion. called Drive that got canceled and pulled
00:37:35.989 --> 00:37:39.070
from the air after only four episodes were aired.
00:37:39.610 --> 00:37:43.289
So much so that Tim Minear's social media handle
00:37:43.289 --> 00:37:49.150
was canceled again. He seems to have finally
00:37:49.150 --> 00:37:52.329
found his niche and a secure paycheck writing
00:37:52.329 --> 00:37:55.489
with Ryan Murphy on American Horror Story and
00:37:55.489 --> 00:38:00.599
the 911 verse. It is absolutely insane. for me
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:03.119
to think about the gulf and quality of these
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:06.260
shows. Because Terriers, The Chicago Code, and
00:38:06.260 --> 00:38:09.559
Firefly, for the most part, were all incredibly
00:38:09.559 --> 00:38:12.239
well -written shows. And I've watched exactly
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:15.039
one episode of 9 -1 -1 Lone Star, and it was
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:16.780
the most ridiculous thing. Yeah, but I think
00:38:16.780 --> 00:38:19.440
you were bringing Texas bias to that. Even so,
00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:22.179
even without the Texas bias, it was just a stupid
00:38:22.179 --> 00:38:24.539
show. Has he been with American Horror Story
00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:27.179
from the beginning? I believe he was on the first
00:38:27.179 --> 00:38:29.969
season. Okay, because as with many... Ryan Murphy
00:38:29.969 --> 00:38:32.070
shows, to my understanding, because I really
00:38:32.070 --> 00:38:34.170
have only watched American Horror Story, but
00:38:34.170 --> 00:38:37.650
I know a little about him. It started off strong.
00:38:37.809 --> 00:38:40.489
The first couple seasons are pretty good, but
00:38:40.489 --> 00:38:43.909
then they go off the rails because my perception
00:38:43.909 --> 00:38:47.949
of that show and what I understand about Ryan
00:38:47.949 --> 00:38:50.829
Murphy shows in general is that they start out
00:38:50.829 --> 00:38:53.090
good and then he just starts throwing everything
00:38:53.090 --> 00:38:56.170
at the wall to see what sticks. Yeah. And they
00:38:56.170 --> 00:38:59.960
get crazy. I mean, this most recent promotion
00:38:59.960 --> 00:39:03.940
of 9 -1 -1 has one of the characters literally
00:39:03.940 --> 00:39:07.940
going into space. It's a crossover episode. With
00:39:07.940 --> 00:39:10.119
astronauts. What is this, a crossover episode?
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:13.599
The cast of Firefly also bonded and spoke very
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:16.119
fondly of the show and their experiences and
00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:19.559
largely appear together in conventions and other
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:23.079
projects to this day, except for Ron Glass, who
00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:27.539
played Shepard Book and sadly died in 2016. The
00:39:27.539 --> 00:39:30.199
cast have stayed friends since. Gina Torres even
00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:34.159
said that they have a cast, a Firefly cast group
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:39.139
chat text still going in 2022. And Marina Baccarin
00:39:39.139 --> 00:39:42.199
was Jewel State's maid of honor in her wedding.
00:39:42.420 --> 00:39:44.980
Okay, love it. Canadian actor Nathan Fillion
00:39:44.980 --> 00:39:48.079
had been a that guy in movies and TV shows for
00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:50.900
years, including being a second banana on three
00:39:50.900 --> 00:39:53.760
seasons of sitcom Two Guys, a Girl and a Pizza
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:58.179
Place. But this was his first lead role as Captain
00:39:58.179 --> 00:40:01.039
Malcolm Reynolds. Gina Torres, who played first
00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:03.340
mate Zoe, had also been a working actor and a
00:40:03.340 --> 00:40:05.320
that guy with her biggest roles being stints
00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:10.159
on One Life to Live and runs on genre shows Hercules,
00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:15.489
The Legendary Journey and Cleopatra 2525. So
00:40:15.489 --> 00:40:18.389
she was on One Life to Live pre -Firefly or just
00:40:18.389 --> 00:40:20.190
in general, you know, she was on that show? Pre
00:40:20.190 --> 00:40:24.130
-Firefly. Oh, okay. I went to a baseball game
00:40:24.130 --> 00:40:28.570
that was sponsored by a local radio station and
00:40:28.570 --> 00:40:32.730
the cast of One Life to Live. was playing in
00:40:32.730 --> 00:40:35.610
the baseball game and I got a signed t -shirt
00:40:35.610 --> 00:40:39.130
I had never seen the show or really any soap
00:40:39.130 --> 00:40:41.489
opera for that matter but they were somewhat
00:40:41.489 --> 00:40:43.789
famous people and I was gonna get a signed t
00:40:43.789 --> 00:40:45.769
-shirt I don't remember when this was I wonder
00:40:45.769 --> 00:40:48.900
if she was one of them that's funny Texas native
00:40:48.900 --> 00:40:51.920
Alan Tudyk was cast as... I didn't know he was
00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:55.699
from Texas. ...pilot Hoban Wash Washburn. I didn't
00:40:55.699 --> 00:40:59.360
know he had a first name. Before Firefly, two
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:01.820
of the more notable roles he had were Traxler
00:41:01.820 --> 00:41:04.440
in Wonder Boys in the year 2000, which is a really
00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:06.699
great movie that regularly flies under the radar,
00:41:06.900 --> 00:41:11.400
and as Watt. and a Knight's Tale in 2001. Oh,
00:41:11.460 --> 00:41:13.179
I don't remember that. I've seen a Knight's Tale.
00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:15.659
Oh, he's great in it. I've liked him in everything
00:41:15.659 --> 00:41:18.820
that I've seen him in. Of particular note, Tucker
00:41:18.820 --> 00:41:22.079
and Dale vs. Evil. Right. Eight of the nine cast
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:24.699
members were the original picks, but filming
00:41:24.699 --> 00:41:28.440
on the pilot Serenity began with Rebecca Gayhart
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:32.510
cast as Inara. Oh, interesting. Whedon apparently
00:41:32.510 --> 00:41:35.110
realized that Gayheart was not working out, didn't
00:41:35.110 --> 00:41:38.329
have chemistry with the other actors, and fired
00:41:38.329 --> 00:41:41.090
her just a few days into production of the pilot.
00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:44.960
quickly replacing her with Brazilian -born actress
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:49.019
Marina Baccarin. This was Baccarin's first major
00:41:49.019 --> 00:41:51.980
role. Well, good for her. I don't know why, but
00:41:51.980 --> 00:41:54.480
I can see Rebecca Gayhart not having chemistry
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:57.059
with the others. That's funny. But maybe I'm
00:41:57.059 --> 00:41:59.679
just basing that on her villainous role in Urban
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:01.840
Legend. Oops, that's a spoiler. Maybe don't include
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:05.789
it. It came out in 1998. Adam Baldwin, cast as
00:42:05.789 --> 00:42:08.389
Jane Cobb, had been around appearing in smaller
00:42:08.389 --> 00:42:11.989
parts in movies like Full Metal Jacket, The Patriot,
00:42:11.989 --> 00:42:14.409
and Predator 2. After the show, he apparently
00:42:14.409 --> 00:42:17.110
went full conservative conspiracy cuckoo pants
00:42:17.110 --> 00:42:20.909
and might be directly responsible for the far
00:42:20.909 --> 00:42:23.789
-right Gamergate movement and therefore indirectly
00:42:23.789 --> 00:42:26.269
responsible for the Donald Trump presidency.
00:42:26.269 --> 00:42:30.030
Okay, I hope he's not in the group chat. Get
00:42:30.030 --> 00:42:34.610
him out of the group chat. I also feel vindicated
00:42:34.610 --> 00:42:38.190
because I hate him. Jewel State had been a Canadian
00:42:38.190 --> 00:42:41.349
child actress and model before being cast as
00:42:41.349 --> 00:42:46.789
Kay Winnett. Lee Kaylee Fry. Joss Whedon wanted
00:42:46.789 --> 00:42:50.010
a normal looking woman on board the ship. So
00:42:50.010 --> 00:42:53.630
State was told she'd have to gain 20 pounds to
00:42:53.630 --> 00:42:56.269
play the part of Kaylee, which is kind of insane
00:42:56.269 --> 00:42:59.909
because she is still incredibly thin. She's so
00:42:59.909 --> 00:43:02.650
tiny. Even after she put on weight, she's still
00:43:02.650 --> 00:43:05.489
so small. Well, you've showed me a more recent
00:43:05.489 --> 00:43:09.329
picture of her and she is a knockout. She is
00:43:09.329 --> 00:43:13.210
like real thin. Yeah. I did know her. She, I
00:43:13.210 --> 00:43:18.190
think, she and Alan Tudyk were probably the actors
00:43:18.190 --> 00:43:21.110
that I was most familiar with going into watching
00:43:21.110 --> 00:43:23.610
this show. Alan Tudyk for the aforementioned
00:43:23.610 --> 00:43:25.909
Tucker and Dale vs. Evil and some other things.
00:43:25.969 --> 00:43:28.550
He was in a Sandra Bullock movie called 28 Days
00:43:28.550 --> 00:43:32.809
where he is in rehab with her. But Jewel State
00:43:32.809 --> 00:43:36.889
was on three episodes of Are You Afraid of the
00:43:36.889 --> 00:43:40.440
Dark? That's very much in your wheelhouse. Oh
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:44.460
yeah, that was Little Heather's foray into the
00:43:44.460 --> 00:43:47.460
horror genre. I loved me some Are You Afraid
00:43:47.460 --> 00:43:51.139
of the Dark. Ron Glass had been a prolific TV
00:43:51.139 --> 00:43:55.719
actor before being cast as Shepard Book. His
00:43:55.719 --> 00:44:00.840
biggest role was Detective Ron Harris on 164
00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:05.239
episodes of Barney Miller. Oh. Okay. I knew him
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:09.619
as Ross's divorce attorney on Friends. Okay.
00:44:09.619 --> 00:44:12.780
I recognize him, but I don't know from what.
00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:16.380
I mean, he was working for a very long time and
00:44:16.380 --> 00:44:19.440
had been working up until his death for Firefly.
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:22.380
That was his real hair. Okay. So the scene...
00:44:22.780 --> 00:44:26.860
When he pulls his hair out, that was one thing
00:44:26.860 --> 00:44:29.199
he did because he had been growing it out. So
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:31.920
in his second callback, when he came back, he
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:37.199
let his hair out to show the wild and crazy nature
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:39.920
of how much it had grown out. And that's what
00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:42.940
directly led to the scene where River sees him
00:44:42.940 --> 00:44:45.139
without his hair pulled back and freaks out about
00:44:45.139 --> 00:44:49.079
it. It is wild. The cast was rounded out by Sean
00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:53.079
Marr playing Simon Tam and Summer Glau as his
00:44:53.079 --> 00:44:55.920
younger sister River. Marr's biggest parts before
00:44:55.920 --> 00:45:00.380
Firefly were a run on Party of Five and a Darren
00:45:00.380 --> 00:45:02.940
Star show that pretty much no one remembers called
00:45:02.940 --> 00:45:06.300
The Street with a dollar sign instead of an S.
00:45:06.440 --> 00:45:09.360
Marr came out as gay in 2011, and I remember
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:12.820
the cast being super supportive of him on Twitter
00:45:12.820 --> 00:45:16.449
at the time. love that summer glow was a dancer
00:45:16.449 --> 00:45:19.469
and a ballerina who had previously appeared on
00:45:19.469 --> 00:45:23.590
one episode of angel that was her first and only
00:45:23.590 --> 00:45:27.510
credited role before being cast as River Tam
00:45:27.510 --> 00:45:30.989
on Firefly. So besides the dynamic main cast,
00:45:31.210 --> 00:45:33.090
one of the best elements that makes the show
00:45:33.090 --> 00:45:36.090
stand out is the look of it. The production design
00:45:36.090 --> 00:45:38.650
blends elements of the American West, Chinese
00:45:38.650 --> 00:45:41.429
and Asian influences, and science fiction, and
00:45:41.429 --> 00:45:44.150
that makes it feel both anachronistic and futuristic
00:45:44.150 --> 00:45:47.070
at the same time. The music composed by Greg
00:45:47.070 --> 00:45:49.789
Edmondson plays a huge part, really selling the
00:45:49.789 --> 00:45:52.610
drama and the setting. Finally, the way the show
00:45:52.610 --> 00:45:55.250
was shot was very unique, especially for the
00:45:55.250 --> 00:45:57.769
time they used a more handheld documentary style
00:45:57.769 --> 00:46:01.030
of shooting to give scenes an extra kinetic feel.
00:46:01.150 --> 00:46:04.469
And they made the CGI VFX shots match, which
00:46:04.469 --> 00:46:07.849
was unheard of. So the CGI shots look like they
00:46:07.849 --> 00:46:10.900
were shot. handheld where you have camera operators
00:46:10.900 --> 00:46:14.199
trying to find the spaceships and zoom in that
00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:16.599
was something that no one had really done before
00:46:16.599 --> 00:46:19.719
but that look now is very common across science
00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:23.260
fiction and uh was copied especially on the show
00:46:23.260 --> 00:46:25.880
battlestar galactica which was done by the same
00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:37.179
vfx team All right, so I want to do a quick recap
00:46:37.179 --> 00:46:41.960
of the 14 episodes of Firefly and talk a little
00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:45.239
bit about each one. I have written a lot of original
00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:47.920
material and done a lot of research, so I'm just
00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:50.780
going to be lazy and read the episode synopsis
00:46:50.780 --> 00:46:53.820
from Wikipedia for each episode. Okay, I think
00:46:53.820 --> 00:46:56.769
that's fair. The first episode, the pilot, Serenity.
00:46:56.929 --> 00:46:59.250
Captain Malcolm Mal Reynolds and his crew aboard
00:46:59.250 --> 00:47:01.690
Serenity illegally salvage goods from a derelict
00:47:01.690 --> 00:47:03.710
ship because the Alliance marked the goods and
00:47:03.710 --> 00:47:06.230
an Alliance ship spotted an obsolete Firefly
00:47:06.230 --> 00:47:09.309
-class freighter leaving the scene. Mal's fence
00:47:09.309 --> 00:47:11.989
badger refuses to handle the goods and Mal has
00:47:11.989 --> 00:47:14.050
to sell elsewhere. To make extra money, the crew
00:47:14.050 --> 00:47:16.389
picks up passengers, Shepard Book, Simon Tam,
00:47:16.570 --> 00:47:18.849
and Lawrence Dobson. En route to the new buyer,
00:47:18.989 --> 00:47:21.010
Patience, Dobson turns out to be an undercover
00:47:21.010 --> 00:47:23.949
Alliance agent tracking Simon. Dobson attempts
00:47:24.110 --> 00:47:26.849
to arrest simon but he is taken prisoner simon
00:47:26.849 --> 00:47:29.210
reveals that his genius sister river tam is hidden
00:47:29.210 --> 00:47:32.449
in his luggage was experimented on by the alliance
00:47:32.449 --> 00:47:34.409
and that he is trying to smuggle her to safety
00:47:34.409 --> 00:47:36.909
patience tries to rob mal but he takes the payment
00:47:36.909 --> 00:47:39.170
after shootout lawrence escapes and holds river
00:47:39.170 --> 00:47:42.050
hostage but mal shoots him and offers simon and
00:47:42.050 --> 00:47:45.349
river haven aboard serenity i think serenity
00:47:45.349 --> 00:47:49.800
is an excellent episode of television it functions
00:47:49.800 --> 00:47:52.639
more or less as a standalone movie it was the
00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:56.900
original pilot Fox did not love it they wanted
00:47:56.900 --> 00:47:59.280
to get to the action faster we didn't really
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:01.980
felt like when you have this universe you need
00:48:01.980 --> 00:48:04.500
to settle into the characters and settle into
00:48:04.500 --> 00:48:07.980
the story ultimately I think he's Correct. I
00:48:07.980 --> 00:48:11.900
agree, which pains me to say, but I think that's
00:48:11.900 --> 00:48:14.219
true. Because you don't care about the outcome
00:48:14.219 --> 00:48:16.119
of an action scene if you don't care about the
00:48:16.119 --> 00:48:18.619
characters. Right. I mean, I never care about
00:48:18.619 --> 00:48:21.119
the outcome of an action scene, but no, I do.
00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:23.239
I just don't care about the action itself. Fox
00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:25.500
really wanted to get to the action quicker. And
00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:30.800
so they kept the produced pilot for DVD sales
00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:32.659
because that was starting to become a thing.
00:48:32.699 --> 00:48:35.420
And they knew that it would come in handy, but
00:48:35.420 --> 00:48:38.230
they actually did not. air the first episode
00:48:38.230 --> 00:48:40.889
serenity that turns to the episode the second
00:48:40.889 --> 00:48:44.789
episode the train job this was written by whedon
00:48:44.789 --> 00:48:48.110
and minear over the course of a weekend because
00:48:48.809 --> 00:48:50.909
Fox told them that the show would not be picked
00:48:50.909 --> 00:48:53.610
up unless they could write another pilot script
00:48:53.610 --> 00:48:58.130
before Monday. So they very hurriedly wrote The
00:48:58.130 --> 00:49:00.809
Train Job as a script that could function both
00:49:00.809 --> 00:49:05.110
as a second episode, but also an additional pilot.
00:49:05.389 --> 00:49:09.289
I think The Train Job is fine. The tonal shifts
00:49:09.289 --> 00:49:12.690
when you're binging it are really apparent, especially
00:49:12.690 --> 00:49:15.889
with Mal. The difference in Mal's character,
00:49:16.050 --> 00:49:19.989
because Mal is a very dour, very serious character
00:49:19.989 --> 00:49:23.730
in Serenity, the episode, not the movie. And
00:49:23.730 --> 00:49:27.869
that very much contrasts with how jokey and silly
00:49:27.869 --> 00:49:31.349
he is in The Train Job. I like him better jokey
00:49:31.349 --> 00:49:35.639
and silly. I also read that as... conceived,
00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:40.820
the original version of Mal would not have returned
00:49:40.820 --> 00:49:46.940
the medical supplies. I don't like that. I was
00:49:46.940 --> 00:49:49.320
very happy that they returned the medical supplies.
00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:51.440
In the version, I'll just read the summary real
00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:53.840
quick. Crime Lord Adeline Niska hires the crew
00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:57.380
to rob a train of unspecified goods. The crew
00:49:57.380 --> 00:49:59.599
can transfer the goods to Serenity flying above,
00:49:59.739 --> 00:50:02.519
but Mal and Zoe Rocheborn are forced to stay
00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:04.539
behind on the train. They learn that They have
00:50:04.539 --> 00:50:06.699
stolen medicine desperately needed by the locals.
00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:09.179
The crew argues whether they should deliver the
00:50:09.179 --> 00:50:11.619
goods to Niska. Ultimately, they decide to rescue
00:50:11.619 --> 00:50:14.420
Mal and Zoe first through subterfuge. Mal decides
00:50:14.420 --> 00:50:16.519
to return the medicine. However, Niska's thugs
00:50:16.519 --> 00:50:19.239
track them down. After killing some of them and
00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:21.519
capturing the rest, Mal and Zoe take the medicine
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:23.639
to those in need of it and refund Niska's money.
00:50:23.780 --> 00:50:27.179
This does have the scene. If I were gonna ever
00:50:27.179 --> 00:50:31.940
share a scene to get people to watch Firefly,
00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:37.090
it's usually the scene where Mal has Niska's
00:50:37.090 --> 00:50:40.190
thugs and is trying to give the money back. And
00:50:40.190 --> 00:50:42.969
the first one, Crow, refuses and says he's going
00:50:42.969 --> 00:50:45.230
to hunt Mal down to the ends of the earth. And
00:50:45.230 --> 00:50:48.230
Mal then just kicks him into the engine, immediately
00:50:48.230 --> 00:50:52.150
obliterating him. Eviscerating him. Turning him
00:50:52.150 --> 00:50:54.989
into confetti. Yeah. And then the second guy
00:50:54.989 --> 00:50:56.849
is like, oh, no, I understand. We're on the same
00:50:56.849 --> 00:51:00.110
page. Best for all of us. Best thing for all
00:51:00.110 --> 00:51:02.639
of us. So, you know, I think it's. fine as a
00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:04.860
second episode. Yeah, no, I like it. Any thoughts
00:51:04.860 --> 00:51:08.059
on that one? I definitely I was I was very happy
00:51:08.059 --> 00:51:10.980
when you could tell that Mal was like, no, we
00:51:10.980 --> 00:51:13.780
got to return these medical supplies to the people
00:51:13.780 --> 00:51:17.340
led by Mitchum Huntsberger. That's his character
00:51:17.340 --> 00:51:19.219
on Gilmore Girls. I mentioned that when we were
00:51:19.219 --> 00:51:22.219
watching the episode. He is the newspaper owner,
00:51:22.420 --> 00:51:25.280
father of Logan Huntsberger. He's the one who
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:27.039
tells Rory that she's never going to make it
00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:29.159
as a newspaper person and causes her to drop
00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:32.019
out of college and that whole thing. Yeah. Episode
00:51:32.019 --> 00:51:35.239
three is... Bushwhacked, the episode summary
00:51:35.239 --> 00:52:03.690
from Wikipedia says, escapes back to Serenity.
00:52:03.809 --> 00:52:06.289
Mal convinces Harkin to let him help find the
00:52:06.289 --> 00:52:08.969
survivor. Mal kills the survivor, saving Harkin's
00:52:08.969 --> 00:52:10.809
life in the process, and the crew is released.
00:52:11.110 --> 00:52:13.309
I remember this, but I also don't remember it.
00:52:13.530 --> 00:52:16.969
This is the one that has the horror movie feel
00:52:16.969 --> 00:52:18.730
to it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I do like.
00:52:18.909 --> 00:52:21.210
This one was written and directed by Tim Minear.
00:52:21.230 --> 00:52:23.829
I was intrigued by the Reavers, and we don't
00:52:23.829 --> 00:52:27.670
really get very much about them. I wonder. I
00:52:27.670 --> 00:52:31.480
wonder. Yeah, this episode, it's not my favorite,
00:52:31.579 --> 00:52:35.039
but it's not a bad episode, I don't think. Apparently.
00:52:35.099 --> 00:52:40.139
So Joss Whedon is very particular about his dialogue
00:52:40.139 --> 00:52:44.460
as someone who is as someone who thinks his dialogue
00:52:44.460 --> 00:52:47.420
is amazing. Yeah. Might be. Apparently in this
00:52:47.420 --> 00:52:50.840
episode, Alan Tudyk was the first time that Whedon
00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:53.659
ever let anyone improvise. I mean, if you're
00:52:53.659 --> 00:52:55.880
going to let someone do it, it's Alan Tudyk.
00:52:55.940 --> 00:52:58.860
And it's specifically it's the scene when there.
00:52:58.889 --> 00:53:00.929
They're intercutting and they're all being interrogated
00:53:00.929 --> 00:53:04.489
by the Alliance guy. And it cuts to Alan Tudyk
00:53:04.489 --> 00:53:06.730
talking about all the things he likes about Zoe
00:53:06.730 --> 00:53:09.750
and just ranting about Zoe. Well, and it's funny
00:53:09.750 --> 00:53:13.630
because I do remember that we cut to that moment
00:53:13.630 --> 00:53:16.809
from Zoe being interrogated. And she says, we're
00:53:16.809 --> 00:53:19.530
very private people. And then it cuts to Wash
00:53:19.530 --> 00:53:22.610
going, and she's this and she's this. And I love
00:53:22.610 --> 00:53:25.050
this about her. Have you ever been with a warrior
00:53:25.050 --> 00:53:27.750
woman? So that makes it extra funny because Zoe
00:53:27.750 --> 00:53:33.010
is. so stoic and so reserved. And she says, we're
00:53:33.010 --> 00:53:35.650
private people. No, Wash is not a private person.
00:53:36.110 --> 00:53:38.369
Apparently Tim Minear was directing that episode
00:53:38.369 --> 00:53:43.130
and it got to the point where he said his scripted
00:53:43.130 --> 00:53:46.349
lines and no one said cut. So he just kept going
00:53:46.349 --> 00:53:48.909
and kept going. And they used a lot of what he
00:53:48.909 --> 00:53:54.050
improvised. Episode four is Shindig. That's the
00:53:54.050 --> 00:53:56.349
episode that's written by Jane Espenson, who
00:53:56.349 --> 00:53:59.570
also wrote for Deep Space Nine. Inara Sarah is
00:53:59.570 --> 00:54:01.809
hired by Atherton Wing. That's her last name?
00:54:01.929 --> 00:54:05.639
Yes. Sarah? Yes. Okay. Inara Sarah is hired by
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:08.219
Atherton Wing, one of her regular clients, and
00:54:08.219 --> 00:54:10.900
accompanies him to a formal dance. Badger hires
00:54:10.900 --> 00:54:13.760
Mal to meet a contract at the same dance and
00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:16.119
try to set up a smuggling job. When Mal hits
00:54:16.119 --> 00:54:19.820
Atherton for the way he treats Inara, Mal finds
00:54:19.820 --> 00:54:22.480
he has unknowingly challenged Atherton to a duel
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:24.860
with swords. Atherton is a skilled swordsman
00:54:24.860 --> 00:54:27.900
and duelist. Inara tries to teach Mal how to
00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:30.599
use a sword overnight. Despite all expectations,
00:54:31.099 --> 00:54:34.380
Mal wins the duel. Contact, who personally dislikes
00:54:34.380 --> 00:54:36.739
Atherton, agrees to hire the crew to smuggle
00:54:36.739 --> 00:54:39.559
cattle to the rim. Okay, a couple things. One
00:54:39.559 --> 00:54:42.639
is that I think it's really funny in the duel
00:54:42.639 --> 00:54:46.719
scene when the contact is watching Mal fighting
00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:49.300
and says to Inara, he thinks he's doing good,
00:54:49.340 --> 00:54:51.820
doesn't he? Or he thinks he's doing well because
00:54:51.820 --> 00:54:55.380
he sucks at sword fighting. The other thing is
00:54:55.380 --> 00:54:58.880
Atherton is Joss Whedon because when we first
00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:03.030
meet him, he's being so civil. and so lovely
00:55:03.030 --> 00:55:06.090
to Inara, but then when he feels threatened,
00:55:06.190 --> 00:55:10.510
he suddenly is very possessive of her and she's
00:55:10.510 --> 00:55:15.869
a whore to him now. That is funny and dead on.
00:55:17.489 --> 00:55:20.750
This episode is also, it's got a... some of my
00:55:20.750 --> 00:55:22.630
favorite Kaylee moments. It's got some great
00:55:22.630 --> 00:55:25.829
lines. This is the episode I showed you a bit
00:55:25.829 --> 00:55:29.190
of this episode when I was pitching the name
00:55:29.190 --> 00:55:31.789
Kaylee to you for our cat when we adopted her
00:55:31.789 --> 00:55:37.150
as a kitten. And Kaylee, the human, is very cute
00:55:37.150 --> 00:55:39.869
in the party scene and in her big frilly pink
00:55:39.869 --> 00:55:42.969
dress. Her big frilly pink dress. I also, I like
00:55:42.969 --> 00:55:45.269
Kaylee's character because she's so sweet and
00:55:45.269 --> 00:55:48.550
she's so positive and optimistic. And there is
00:55:48.550 --> 00:55:51.980
a little bit of naivete to her. But at the same
00:55:51.980 --> 00:55:54.000
time, she stands up for herself. And she does
00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:56.760
that with Mal in this episode because he makes
00:55:56.760 --> 00:55:59.139
a comment when she sees the dress in the window.
00:55:59.179 --> 00:56:01.179
He makes a comment about, what are you going
00:56:01.179 --> 00:56:02.820
to wear that to do? Clean the shit. You're going
00:56:02.820 --> 00:56:04.659
to wear that rig and trounce around the engine
00:56:04.659 --> 00:56:06.840
room. Yeah. And then later she says, I'm not
00:56:06.840 --> 00:56:08.719
talking to you. And then, of course, in later
00:56:08.719 --> 00:56:10.900
episodes, she stands up for herself with Simon.
00:56:11.019 --> 00:56:13.500
So I really like that about her character. Yeah.
00:56:13.579 --> 00:56:17.690
And, you know, Jill State is. So charming and
00:56:17.690 --> 00:56:21.130
has such an adorable smile and plays Kaylee so
00:56:21.130 --> 00:56:23.110
great. So this is a really great Kaylee episode.
00:56:23.269 --> 00:56:26.570
I love the scene with her at the party. Well,
00:56:26.670 --> 00:56:28.670
the mean girls, first of all, are very mean to
00:56:28.670 --> 00:56:31.309
her. But then she ends up surrounded by all the
00:56:31.309 --> 00:56:35.929
guys talking engines and spaceship. Yeah. And
00:56:35.929 --> 00:56:37.889
they're all very thrilled. And that's just her
00:56:37.889 --> 00:56:40.730
element. She's very happy there. The next episode
00:56:40.730 --> 00:56:44.840
is safe. That's where the crew delivers cattle
00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:47.099
to the rim, but Book is struck in the middle
00:56:47.099 --> 00:56:50.539
of a shootout. At the same time, Simon and River
00:56:50.539 --> 00:56:53.019
Tam are kidnapped by locals while sightseeing
00:56:53.019 --> 00:56:55.960
in town. Mal chooses to leave the Tams behind
00:56:55.960 --> 00:56:58.340
to seek help for Book. Desperate, they turn to
00:56:58.340 --> 00:57:00.719
an Alliance ship. At First Hostel, the Alliance
00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:03.480
officer they speak to provides medical aid after
00:57:03.480 --> 00:57:06.440
seeing Book's ID. Meanwhile, the kidnappers belong
00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:09.059
to a community in desperate need of an actual
00:57:09.059 --> 00:57:11.880
doctor, and Simon tentatively hopes he has found
00:57:11.880 --> 00:57:13.969
a - haven for himself and River. However, the
00:57:13.969 --> 00:57:15.949
religious residents believe River is a witch
00:57:15.949 --> 00:57:18.590
and attempt to burn her at the stake. Serenity
00:57:18.590 --> 00:57:21.010
returns just in time to rescue the siblings.
00:57:21.210 --> 00:57:23.429
When Simon asks Mal why he came back, the captain
00:57:23.429 --> 00:57:25.489
tells Simon that he and River are part of the
00:57:25.489 --> 00:57:29.550
crew. I didn't love this episode, the whole kidnapping
00:57:29.550 --> 00:57:31.769
thing. I didn't like that they left them. Of
00:57:31.769 --> 00:57:33.849
course, I was thrilled when they came back. Just
00:57:33.849 --> 00:57:36.369
overall, is this the episode where they're in
00:57:36.369 --> 00:57:39.389
town and Simon hurts Kaylee's feelings about
00:57:39.389 --> 00:57:41.869
the piece of, it's like a plate or something.
00:57:41.949 --> 00:57:44.550
Yes. Ceramic piece. Kaylee thought it was fancy
00:57:44.550 --> 00:57:48.190
and was thinking about getting it for him as
00:57:48.190 --> 00:57:49.650
a gift. And he was like, look at this piece of
00:57:49.650 --> 00:57:51.090
crap. I can't believe they're charging money
00:57:51.090 --> 00:57:53.329
for this. So yeah, overall, I didn't really love
00:57:53.329 --> 00:57:55.889
this episode, but I did love the line at the
00:57:55.889 --> 00:57:59.050
end of the episode when the crew shows back up
00:57:59.050 --> 00:58:02.110
to rescue the Tams and that the one guy says
00:58:02.110 --> 00:58:05.409
she's a witch and Mal says, yeah, but she's our
00:58:05.409 --> 00:58:08.929
witch. This episode is also notable for the line.
00:58:09.110 --> 00:58:11.360
What does that make us? Big damn heroes, sir.
00:58:11.980 --> 00:58:15.039
Who says that? Zoe says big damn heroes, sir.
00:58:15.099 --> 00:58:18.800
This is also notable because this episode is
00:58:18.800 --> 00:58:24.559
the television debut of one Zac Efron who plays
00:58:24.559 --> 00:58:28.119
young Simon Tam in the flashback. He does? I
00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:29.739
believe you asked. I believe because I believe
00:58:29.739 --> 00:58:32.920
when we watched it. I said, who is that? I did
00:58:32.920 --> 00:58:35.360
because he looked familiar. Well, the reason
00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:40.699
he looks familiar is it's Link. and i'm link
00:58:40.699 --> 00:58:44.159
and this was his first television acting okay
00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:50.360
okay Episode six is Our Mrs. Reynolds. Oh, yes.
00:58:50.559 --> 00:58:53.340
After completing a job for a small settlement
00:58:53.340 --> 00:58:56.260
during the ensuing celebration, Mal learns that
00:58:56.260 --> 00:58:58.440
he inadvertently married a young woman called
00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:01.659
Saffron, part of the payment. Although Mal insists
00:59:01.659 --> 00:59:03.500
they are not married, Saffron is determined to
00:59:03.500 --> 00:59:06.880
fulfill a subservient wife's role. Saffron is
00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:09.300
not what she appears to be. She later knocks
00:59:09.300 --> 00:59:12.539
Mal out, locks the ship into a course for murderous
00:59:12.539 --> 00:59:14.719
ship scrappers, and flees. He's in a shuttle.
00:59:14.860 --> 00:59:18.559
The crew barely escapes. The crew. That was a
00:59:18.559 --> 00:59:22.880
little bit of a Freudian. Let's be tasteful in
00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:25.539
how we talk about this episode. I'm just saying
00:59:25.539 --> 00:59:28.079
Christina Hendricks is a very gorgeous woman.
00:59:28.159 --> 00:59:32.519
She is. She is. And this is maybe. The scene
00:59:32.519 --> 00:59:36.639
when she is seducing Mal in his quarters is possibly
00:59:36.639 --> 00:59:41.059
one of the hottest for broadcast TV scenes ever
00:59:41.059 --> 00:59:44.460
made. She's a very sensual woman. She exudes
00:59:44.460 --> 00:59:47.500
that for sure. This episode was actually directed
00:59:47.500 --> 00:59:52.219
by Vondie Curtis Hall. You would probably recognize
00:59:52.219 --> 00:59:55.260
him from, I don't know if you would recognize
00:59:55.260 --> 00:59:59.260
him from Coming to America. He's one of the vendors
00:59:59.260 --> 01:00:01.809
in the basketball who recognized. Prince Akeem.
01:00:01.889 --> 01:00:03.449
Probably not. I don't know if you would know
01:00:03.449 --> 01:00:05.809
him for anything, but he's a fairly prolific
01:00:05.809 --> 01:00:09.389
actor. Episode 7, Jane's Town. The crew lands
01:00:09.389 --> 01:00:12.190
on a planet to meet a contact. Although Jane
01:00:12.190 --> 01:00:15.070
Cobb insists he is wanted there, they are dumbfounded
01:00:15.070 --> 01:00:17.389
to learn that the locals revere him as a folk
01:00:17.389 --> 01:00:19.809
hero. Mal attempts to use Jane's status as a
01:00:19.809 --> 01:00:22.329
distraction to move smuggled goods across town.
01:00:22.530 --> 01:00:25.869
However, Magistrate Higgins releases Jane's former
01:00:25.869 --> 01:00:29.269
accomplice, Stitch Hessian, whom Jane abandoned
01:00:29.269 --> 01:00:31.909
years ago during a botched robbery and now seeks
01:00:31.909 --> 01:00:35.050
revenge stitch publicly confronts jane revealing
01:00:35.050 --> 01:00:37.789
what the townspeople believe happened to be false
01:00:37.789 --> 01:00:40.369
stitch shoots but a villager jumps in front of
01:00:40.369 --> 01:00:43.190
jane and dies jane kills stitch and urges the
01:00:43.190 --> 01:00:45.849
townspeople to stop viewing him as a hero serenity
01:00:45.849 --> 01:00:49.050
is landlocked by higgins's order to try to capture
01:00:49.050 --> 01:00:52.250
jane higgins's 26 year old son fess encouraged
01:00:52.250 --> 01:00:54.789
by inara to stand up for himself after losing
01:00:54.789 --> 01:00:57.570
his virginity to her as paid for by magistrate
01:00:57.570 --> 01:00:59.690
higgins orders the unlocking of the ship and
01:00:59.719 --> 01:01:02.320
And Serenity Departs. Some of these synopses
01:01:02.320 --> 01:01:06.179
are incredibly detailed and some of them less
01:01:06.179 --> 01:01:09.579
so. Yeah. I have a little bit of a confession
01:01:09.579 --> 01:01:12.199
to make. I think I might have fallen asleep during
01:01:12.199 --> 01:01:14.079
this episode. Really? Because as you're describing
01:01:14.079 --> 01:01:16.260
what happens in the end, I'm like, I don't really
01:01:16.260 --> 01:01:18.659
remember that. Yeah, the whole thing about the
01:01:18.659 --> 01:01:23.070
sun. You don't remember the magistrate's son?
01:01:23.230 --> 01:01:25.610
I remember that he was with Inara earlier in
01:01:25.610 --> 01:01:28.030
the episode, but I don't remember that very ending
01:01:28.030 --> 01:01:31.050
bit. This is probably - I remember the cohort
01:01:31.050 --> 01:01:34.469
guy, the, what's the word I'm looking for? Accomplice.
01:01:34.670 --> 01:01:37.170
Accomplice guy showing up in that whole thing,
01:01:37.250 --> 01:01:40.750
but not that last little bit, which I guess maybe
01:01:40.750 --> 01:01:43.110
I should have realized that I didn't remember
01:01:43.110 --> 01:01:45.190
that because how did they get away otherwise?
01:01:45.250 --> 01:01:47.630
If I was ranking, this would probably be my third
01:01:47.630 --> 01:01:51.030
least favorite episode. magistrate's plan doesn't
01:01:51.030 --> 01:01:54.309
make a lot of sense. It's Jane focused. I don't
01:01:54.309 --> 01:01:58.349
like that. Jane is not a particularly great character.
01:01:58.369 --> 01:02:01.980
Aside from the actor, the character is. just
01:02:01.980 --> 01:02:04.000
a big dumb brute most of the time. Yeah, I do
01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:06.699
not like Jane as previously established. If they
01:02:06.699 --> 01:02:09.460
were going to make him more likable over time,
01:02:09.739 --> 01:02:12.539
they didn't have the time to do it. So yeah,
01:02:12.539 --> 01:02:15.179
it's not great. When you view it in the contrast
01:02:15.179 --> 01:02:18.960
of the next episode, especially episode eight,
01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:22.719
Out of Gas. Okay, yeah, because remember I did
01:02:22.719 --> 01:02:25.340
say I was too tired to watch that one, probably
01:02:25.340 --> 01:02:28.699
because I realized I was. drifting. Apparently
01:02:28.699 --> 01:02:31.360
I drifted and didn't realize it. That's funny.
01:02:31.500 --> 01:02:33.940
Out of Gas is by far my favorite episode of the
01:02:33.940 --> 01:02:36.679
show. It is, I think, overwhelmingly recognized
01:02:36.679 --> 01:02:39.920
as the best episode, so much so that I've seen
01:02:39.920 --> 01:02:43.519
people that recommend saving it for last and
01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:46.199
actually watching it instead of Objects in Space
01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:48.840
as the last episode. I don't hate that idea.
01:02:49.139 --> 01:02:52.329
Yeah, I think especially... the way that Objects
01:02:52.329 --> 01:02:55.750
in Space has aged. I think that it is perfectly
01:02:55.750 --> 01:02:58.269
placed in the middle of the show because it gives
01:02:58.269 --> 01:02:59.889
you a really good idea of who these characters
01:02:59.889 --> 01:03:02.469
are and it really fleshes them out. And it also
01:03:02.469 --> 01:03:05.210
sets up the back half of the show, which is much
01:03:05.210 --> 01:03:07.570
stronger. Other than Serenity, the back half
01:03:07.570 --> 01:03:10.550
of the show is much, much stronger than the first
01:03:10.550 --> 01:03:14.349
half of the show. So out of gas is 100 % the
01:03:14.349 --> 01:03:16.530
turning point. Here's the summary. An explosion
01:03:16.530 --> 01:03:18.610
in the engine room leaves Serenity with a dead
01:03:18.610 --> 01:03:21.320
engine and inoperative life support. system and
01:03:21.320 --> 01:03:24.119
no backup options. With only a few hours of oxygen
01:03:24.119 --> 01:03:27.079
left, Mal has the crew leave in the two shuttles
01:03:27.079 --> 01:03:29.420
while he remains aboard with hope to contact
01:03:29.420 --> 01:03:32.219
a passing ship. In a series of flashbacks, Mal
01:03:32.219 --> 01:03:35.400
convinces Zoe, Jane, Inara, Hoban Washburn, and
01:03:35.400 --> 01:03:38.340
Kaylee Fry to join his crew. In the present -
01:03:38.340 --> 01:03:40.940
Why does it say Hoban Washburn and all the other
01:03:40.940 --> 01:03:43.599
people are just - Because it's the first time
01:03:43.599 --> 01:03:46.980
he's mentioned on Wikipedia in the summary here.
01:03:47.099 --> 01:03:50.239
Okay. In the present, Mal hails a ship and secures
01:03:50.239 --> 01:03:52.800
the part needed to fix the engine, though he
01:03:52.800 --> 01:03:55.059
is shot by the other ship's captain in a failed
01:03:55.059 --> 01:03:57.059
attempt to take over Serenity. And what appears
01:03:57.059 --> 01:03:59.579
to be his final act, Mal repairs the ship and
01:03:59.579 --> 01:04:02.219
collapses. The crew returns to Serenity in time
01:04:02.219 --> 01:04:04.360
to save Mal's life. It is a very good episode.
01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:09.500
It's got everything. It's got two levels of flashback.
01:04:09.800 --> 01:04:15.019
Yes. It has treachery. It has tension. Were we
01:04:15.019 --> 01:04:17.219
supposed to think sort of as the episode was
01:04:17.219 --> 01:04:19.920
going along that everybody else had died? And
01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:23.639
that's why Mal is alone trying to save the ship?
01:04:23.639 --> 01:04:26.039
I mean, I came to it, again, from a unique perspective
01:04:26.039 --> 01:04:28.699
of having seen Serenity before seeing the whole
01:04:28.699 --> 01:04:31.659
show. So I knew that everyone was going to survive.
01:04:32.039 --> 01:04:35.320
But it's a great structure. Tim Minear actually
01:04:35.320 --> 01:04:40.420
revisited the structure for an episode of Terriers,
01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:42.429
which is... also one of my all -time favorite
01:04:42.429 --> 01:04:45.349
shows. It has a very similar flashback structure,
01:04:45.650 --> 01:04:49.570
paralleling current events and learning how characters
01:04:49.570 --> 01:04:52.210
got to where they are and what happened in the
01:04:52.210 --> 01:04:55.050
past. Flashbacks within flashbacks. I don't think
01:04:55.050 --> 01:04:57.170
that episode has flashbacks within flashbacks,
01:04:57.250 --> 01:04:59.889
but it does have a non -linear kind of flashback.
01:04:59.909 --> 01:05:02.170
You know who does have flashbacks within flashbacks?
01:05:02.289 --> 01:05:06.449
Who? Saw. I'll take any opportunity to talk about
01:05:06.449 --> 01:05:22.829
it. Episode 9, Ariel. While waiting on the core
01:05:22.829 --> 01:05:25.110
planet Ariel, Simon hires the crew to help him
01:05:25.110 --> 01:05:27.829
smuggle River into a local hospital for a thorough
01:05:27.829 --> 01:05:30.349
diagnostic. In return, he will tell them how
01:05:30.349 --> 01:05:33.050
to loot the hospital for valuable medicine. Once
01:05:33.050 --> 01:05:36.530
inside, Jane attempts to turn in Simon and River
01:05:36.530 --> 01:05:39.269
for the reward. However, the Alliance officer
01:05:39.269 --> 01:05:41.989
arrests Jane as well to keep the bounty for himself.
01:05:42.289 --> 01:05:44.469
The crew escapes, but Mal realizes that Jane
01:05:44.469 --> 01:05:47.269
betrayed Simon and River. Mal arranges for Jane
01:05:47.269 --> 01:05:49.949
to suffocate when Serenity leaves the planet's
01:05:49.949 --> 01:05:52.239
atmosphere, but then lets him live when he shows
01:05:52.239 --> 01:05:55.159
remorse. I don't know that he really shows remorse.
01:05:55.500 --> 01:05:58.139
He does. Don't let him know what I did to make
01:05:58.139 --> 01:06:01.059
something up. I guess. I liked this episode.
01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:04.239
It was a heist. It's a heist. The plot really
01:06:04.239 --> 01:06:07.219
kicks in. You learn a lot more about River, who
01:06:07.219 --> 01:06:10.039
at this point is just manic, pixie, psychotic
01:06:10.039 --> 01:06:12.019
girl. I knew you were going to say that. I don't
01:06:12.019 --> 01:06:15.449
like that, but it also is. kind of the best way
01:06:15.449 --> 01:06:19.070
to describe her. You may recall that I was thrilled
01:06:19.070 --> 01:06:22.010
when Mal punches Jane. I was like, I knew it.
01:06:22.050 --> 01:06:27.070
I knew he knew. They do a really good job telegraphing
01:06:27.070 --> 01:06:32.219
Mal. The the seething that Mal has for Jane when
01:06:32.219 --> 01:06:34.500
he says something about he says something to
01:06:34.500 --> 01:06:37.340
him after they get back from the heist. It's
01:06:37.340 --> 01:06:38.760
something about, oh, you wouldn't want to miss
01:06:38.760 --> 01:06:40.239
your reward or wouldn't want to miss your share
01:06:40.239 --> 01:06:42.099
or something like that. But he says it in such
01:06:42.099 --> 01:06:43.960
a way that if you're paying attention, you're
01:06:43.960 --> 01:06:47.880
like he is seething and just barely covering
01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:50.980
it up. It's interesting to think about what their
01:06:50.980 --> 01:06:55.019
relationship really. is because you know you
01:06:55.019 --> 01:06:58.139
don't really get enough time with these characters
01:06:58.139 --> 01:07:01.639
and there's quite a few of them to really I mean
01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:03.719
you know the relationship between Zoe and Mal
01:07:03.719 --> 01:07:06.119
for sure you obviously get the relationship between
01:07:06.119 --> 01:07:08.980
Simon and River like there but there's not a
01:07:08.980 --> 01:07:11.340
ton of depth with the relationships between all
01:07:11.340 --> 01:07:13.559
the characters, and especially Jane, considering
01:07:13.559 --> 01:07:16.179
how antagonistic he is. But it is interesting
01:07:16.179 --> 01:07:20.460
thinking about this episode on the heels of Out
01:07:20.460 --> 01:07:23.719
of Gas, where you learn that Jane joined the
01:07:23.719 --> 01:07:27.139
crew of Serenity, basically - As a hired gun.
01:07:27.340 --> 01:07:31.050
Yeah, and like - they bribed him to do it so
01:07:31.050 --> 01:07:33.510
that he wouldn't kill them. So then it's like,
01:07:33.570 --> 01:07:36.369
well, how does Mal really feel about Jane? So,
01:07:36.449 --> 01:07:38.969
and I don't know, but obviously not enough of
01:07:38.969 --> 01:07:41.829
a kinship to not threaten him with death for
01:07:41.829 --> 01:07:44.809
his betrayal. Yeah. One interesting note about
01:07:44.809 --> 01:07:47.750
this episode, there's a moment when after the
01:07:47.750 --> 01:07:51.849
heist, Mal hugs Kaylee from behind, kind of turns
01:07:51.849 --> 01:07:55.050
her around and just hugs her in a very big brotherly
01:07:55.050 --> 01:07:58.650
fashion. That was not scripted. That was just
01:07:58.650 --> 01:08:01.409
Nathan Fillion doing that because that's how
01:08:01.409 --> 01:08:03.909
the cast interacted with each other because they
01:08:03.909 --> 01:08:06.750
got along so well and they all had so much fun
01:08:06.750 --> 01:08:10.070
and bonded on set. They just had that kind of
01:08:10.070 --> 01:08:13.030
camaraderie. And she was actually, Jewel State
01:08:13.030 --> 01:08:16.350
was very young. I believe she was 19. I think
01:08:16.350 --> 01:08:17.569
the character is supposed to be a little bit
01:08:17.569 --> 01:08:20.369
older, but I believe she was very young. She
01:08:20.369 --> 01:08:22.789
was like 19 when she was cast. So they had kind
01:08:22.789 --> 01:08:25.170
of a brother and sisterly bond. That's really
01:08:25.170 --> 01:08:28.199
cute. I like that. The next episode, War Stories.
01:08:28.640 --> 01:08:30.939
Angry that Zoe and Mal have an unshakable bond
01:08:30.939 --> 01:08:33.699
as war veterans, her husband Wash demands to
01:08:33.699 --> 01:08:35.800
take her place on a seemingly routine mission.
01:08:36.020 --> 01:08:39.060
Mal begrudgingly allows Wash to go along. They
01:08:39.060 --> 01:08:41.640
are captured by Niska out to restore his reputation
01:08:41.640 --> 01:08:43.680
after they failed to complete the robbery he
01:08:43.680 --> 01:08:46.020
commissioned in the train job. Zoe has only enough
01:08:46.020 --> 01:08:48.840
money to ransom one of them. She unhesitatingly
01:08:48.840 --> 01:08:51.239
chooses Wash. The crew band together to rescue
01:08:51.239 --> 01:08:53.079
Mal. I think there's a lot of good things in
01:08:53.079 --> 01:08:56.720
this episode. I do think that... The premise
01:08:56.720 --> 01:09:00.739
of it is a little bit off for me in that it felt,
01:09:00.859 --> 01:09:03.079
I mean, again, with the limited characterization
01:09:03.079 --> 01:09:05.260
that we've gotten, it felt a little out of character
01:09:05.260 --> 01:09:08.840
for Wash to me because it seems like he's just
01:09:08.840 --> 01:09:12.960
so go with the flow and trust his wife. And all
01:09:12.960 --> 01:09:15.680
of a sudden he's very insecure. Yeah. So that
01:09:15.680 --> 01:09:19.279
didn't really resonate with me as it didn't feel
01:09:19.279 --> 01:09:21.859
super authentic. It felt like just a way to set
01:09:21.859 --> 01:09:25.020
up this experience where Wash and Mal are together.
01:09:25.130 --> 01:09:27.869
And, you know, I do like the moment when Zoe
01:09:27.869 --> 01:09:30.329
chooses him. It's like Niska's like, you have
01:09:30.329 --> 01:09:32.970
to pick him. Like he doesn't even finish the
01:09:32.970 --> 01:09:35.609
sentence. You were going to ask me to choose.
01:09:35.770 --> 01:09:38.310
Do you want me to let you finish? So I do like
01:09:38.310 --> 01:09:41.130
that moment, but yeah, it felt a little contrived.
01:09:41.210 --> 01:09:44.029
Yeah, it's a little contrived. The pacing is
01:09:44.029 --> 01:09:47.310
a little weird in this one. It does have another
01:09:47.310 --> 01:09:50.149
famous line, no power in the verse can stop me,
01:09:50.229 --> 01:09:53.590
which Kaylee says when she and River are playing
01:09:53.590 --> 01:09:56.130
tag through the ship, but then later on when
01:09:56.130 --> 01:09:59.789
River takes the gun and takes down three of Niska's
01:09:59.789 --> 01:10:03.569
men, hinting at what's to come from River. I
01:10:03.569 --> 01:10:07.590
did also really like how as they are being electrocuted,
01:10:07.850 --> 01:10:11.569
Mal and Wash are just having like a conversation
01:10:11.569 --> 01:10:15.130
about Zoe, which like I ultimately, you know,
01:10:15.149 --> 01:10:18.970
Wash says Mal did that to keep me from breaking.
01:10:19.109 --> 01:10:23.449
Yeah. So it was also kind of funny. It's a really
01:10:23.449 --> 01:10:26.130
good moment. And it's one of the things it's
01:10:26.130 --> 01:10:28.989
exemplary of why I love this show, because it
01:10:28.989 --> 01:10:33.319
is funny. dialogue, smart dialogue, informing
01:10:33.319 --> 01:10:37.939
character, informing plot, and everything really
01:10:37.939 --> 01:10:41.020
working together in a way that does work well.
01:10:41.140 --> 01:10:43.720
So even though the episode itself is not the
01:10:43.720 --> 01:10:45.840
best episode, the pacing is a little off. It's
01:10:45.840 --> 01:10:48.659
a little unsatisfying when Niska escapes. I think
01:10:48.659 --> 01:10:50.539
the idea was they were going to try to bring
01:10:50.539 --> 01:10:52.640
him back as a recurring villain in the future.
01:10:52.819 --> 01:10:55.439
So it's a little unsatisfying when that happens.
01:10:55.539 --> 01:10:59.579
But when it works, it works really, really well.
01:10:59.949 --> 01:11:02.930
it's just top tier storytelling. Episode 11,
01:11:03.189 --> 01:11:06.229
Trash. This is the return of Christina Hendricks
01:11:06.229 --> 01:11:12.409
as Yo Safbridge. When Saffron crosses paths with
01:11:12.409 --> 01:11:16.449
Mal again, she asks him to help her rob a precious
01:11:16.449 --> 01:11:19.409
antique weapon from a wealthy man. Once Mal and
01:11:19.409 --> 01:11:21.569
Saffron are inside, they are discovered and it
01:11:21.569 --> 01:11:23.869
is revealed that the man is married to Saffron.
01:11:24.050 --> 01:11:26.770
Although the man seems initially oblivious, he
01:11:26.770 --> 01:11:28.710
is aware of Saffron's true nature and called
01:11:28.710 --> 01:11:31.060
the authorities. Mal and Saffron escape, but
01:11:31.060 --> 01:11:33.619
Saffron betrays Mal, stranding him naked in the
01:11:33.619 --> 01:11:35.960
desert and tries to pick up the weapon. However,
01:11:36.140 --> 01:11:38.399
Inara gets there first. She leaves Saffron locked
01:11:38.399 --> 01:11:40.119
up in a storage container for the authorities
01:11:40.119 --> 01:11:43.380
and this crew escapes with the weapon. I liked
01:11:43.380 --> 01:11:45.960
this episode a lot too. Another heist. Another
01:11:45.960 --> 01:11:49.000
heist. With some twists and turns. It was weird
01:11:49.000 --> 01:11:51.300
to see Christina Hendricks wearing like fairly
01:11:51.300 --> 01:11:53.680
contemporary looking clothes. I mean, I know
01:11:53.680 --> 01:11:55.100
this is supposed to be set in the future, but
01:11:55.100 --> 01:11:56.939
she was just wearing like pants and a blazer.
01:11:57.100 --> 01:11:59.039
Just like it looked pretty normal. She had like
01:11:59.039 --> 01:12:01.260
a bodice on at one point, didn't she? At one
01:12:01.260 --> 01:12:03.899
point, yeah. But in the scene where they get
01:12:03.899 --> 01:12:07.460
to... her husband's place to steal the thing.
01:12:07.460 --> 01:12:08.819
Oh, yeah, because she's dressed as a worker.
01:12:09.079 --> 01:12:11.659
Yeah. And I'm like, you know, in the first episode
01:12:11.659 --> 01:12:14.020
where we see her, she's wearing that sort of
01:12:14.020 --> 01:12:17.760
burlap sack dress. And then, of course, I know
01:12:17.760 --> 01:12:21.000
her from Mad Men when she was dressed in 60s
01:12:21.000 --> 01:12:24.180
garb. So it was kind of weird to see her in something
01:12:24.180 --> 01:12:26.420
that looked like not like either one of those
01:12:26.420 --> 01:12:29.920
things. This directly led to me watching the
01:12:29.920 --> 01:12:32.180
show Mad Men because I thought Christina Hendricks
01:12:32.180 --> 01:12:34.520
was fantastic in this and also striking. gorgeous
01:12:34.520 --> 01:12:38.260
easy on the eyes very much so and i looked up
01:12:38.260 --> 01:12:40.279
her imdb just to see what else she had been in
01:12:40.279 --> 01:12:43.199
and i saw oh it seems like she's in most episodes
01:12:43.199 --> 01:12:45.140
of mad men maybe i should check that show out
01:12:45.140 --> 01:12:47.439
i've heard good things about it and that is a
01:12:47.439 --> 01:12:51.579
show that has aged fantastically and is absolutely
01:12:51.579 --> 01:12:54.859
on my short list of favorite shows of all time
01:12:54.859 --> 01:12:57.859
like probably top three if not very good show
01:12:57.859 --> 01:13:01.239
which you also introduced me to i mean i knew
01:13:01.239 --> 01:13:03.630
what it was but had never watched it Episode
01:13:03.630 --> 01:13:06.510
12, The Message. Mal and Zoe receive in the mail
01:13:06.510 --> 01:13:09.590
the body of Tracy, a comrade in arms who fought
01:13:09.590 --> 01:13:12.590
with them at the Battle of Duking, and they attempt
01:13:12.590 --> 01:13:15.350
to honor his recorded wish to be returned home.
01:13:15.550 --> 01:13:17.689
However, a corrupt alliance officer demands they
01:13:17.689 --> 01:13:19.449
turn over the body and the goods the soldier
01:13:19.449 --> 01:13:21.489
was smuggling. While searching the body for clues,
01:13:21.590 --> 01:13:23.970
they learn that Tracy is still alive and is smuggling
01:13:23.970 --> 01:13:26.350
organs. Tracy had double -crossed his employers,
01:13:26.430 --> 01:13:28.310
but they killed his new buyer. Mal is ultimately
01:13:28.310 --> 01:13:30.630
forced to kill him to protect the crew and Book
01:13:30.630 --> 01:13:33.329
blackmails the officer into leaving. Mal and
01:13:33.329 --> 01:13:36.329
Zoe take Tracy's body home to his family. This
01:13:36.329 --> 01:13:38.329
was a little bit. I don't know. This one was...
01:13:38.680 --> 01:13:40.760
It was bittersweet in some ways. It was also
01:13:40.760 --> 01:13:44.180
frustrating because, I mean, the plan was they
01:13:44.180 --> 01:13:47.640
were going to call the Alliance guys and let
01:13:47.640 --> 01:13:50.199
them come aboard. Like that was their plot. But
01:13:50.199 --> 01:13:52.479
Tracy freaks out and gets himself killed, right?
01:13:52.579 --> 01:13:54.560
Like I understood that correctly. Yes. Well,
01:13:54.619 --> 01:13:57.560
Tracy freaks out and gets shot because he's holding
01:13:57.560 --> 01:14:00.300
Kaylee hostage. He should have trusted Mal and
01:14:00.300 --> 01:14:03.899
Zoe as he did in the past. This episode was,
01:14:04.100 --> 01:14:06.420
it definitely has a bittersweet feel to it. Part
01:14:06.420 --> 01:14:10.640
of that is the score is very haunting and very
01:14:10.640 --> 01:14:16.159
sad. The composer got word that the show was
01:14:16.159 --> 01:14:19.180
canceled while they were working on this episode.
01:14:19.460 --> 01:14:23.420
So one of the things he says for the scene when
01:14:23.420 --> 01:14:26.340
they are bringing Tracy's body to his family,
01:14:26.420 --> 01:14:30.100
he said he wrote the score not just as a funeral
01:14:30.100 --> 01:14:34.090
dirge for Tracy, but as As a funeral dirge for
01:14:34.090 --> 01:14:38.409
Firefly. Aw. And who the composer's name was?
01:14:38.649 --> 01:14:41.390
Greg Edmonton? Is that what you said? Yes. Episode
01:14:41.390 --> 01:14:44.989
13, Heart of Gold. Nandi, an old friend of Inara's
01:14:44.989 --> 01:14:48.689
and a former companion, runs an unlicensed bordello
01:14:48.689 --> 01:14:51.250
on a barren planet. The bordello is frequently
01:14:51.250 --> 01:14:53.869
patronized by Rance Burgess, a tyrannical ruler
01:14:53.869 --> 01:14:56.449
who keeps the community excessively poor so that
01:14:56.449 --> 01:14:59.369
he can govern it as a cowboy. Burgess, whose
01:14:59.369 --> 01:15:01.949
wife is infertile, believes a pregnant prostitute
01:15:01.949 --> 01:15:04.850
named Petalane is carrying his child, with Burgess
01:15:04.850 --> 01:15:06.779
promising to take the child once it is born,
01:15:06.920 --> 01:15:10.380
Nandi contacts Inara and asks her if the Serenity
01:15:10.380 --> 01:15:12.680
crew can help defend her establishment. Mal agrees,
01:15:12.920 --> 01:15:15.340
but upon arrival realizes that Burgess's cavalry
01:15:15.340 --> 01:15:17.899
is too powerful to fight and advises Nandi and
01:15:17.899 --> 01:15:20.420
her working girls to leave the planet immediately.
01:15:20.920 --> 01:15:23.680
Nandi refuses to lose her establishment to Burgess
01:15:23.680 --> 01:15:26.140
and her resolve impresses Mal enough to encourage
01:15:26.140 --> 01:15:28.479
the crew to stay and fight Burgess. Nandi and
01:15:28.479 --> 01:15:30.779
Mal sleep together and Petaline's child is born,
01:15:30.920 --> 01:15:33.100
although Inara is outwardly pleased that Mal
01:15:33.100 --> 01:15:35.670
has put his intimacy issues aside. Secretly,
01:15:35.670 --> 01:15:38.689
she is heartbroken that her attraction is unrequited.
01:15:38.750 --> 01:15:40.869
With the help from the crew, Burgess's forces
01:15:40.869 --> 01:15:43.409
are defeated and peddling kills Burgess, but
01:15:43.409 --> 01:15:46.090
Nandi is killed in battle. Later, Inara confesses
01:15:46.090 --> 01:15:48.890
to Mal that she wants to leave Serenity. This
01:15:48.890 --> 01:15:51.949
episode was fine. I don't have a strong feeling
01:15:51.949 --> 01:15:55.449
about it. It's honestly, it's kind of a bummer
01:15:55.449 --> 01:15:58.189
of an episode. Ultimately, I think there's a
01:15:58.189 --> 01:16:02.109
lot of emphasis. placed on the shootout which
01:16:02.109 --> 01:16:05.350
the action scenes i will say are one of the things
01:16:05.350 --> 01:16:07.810
that have aged and show their budget a lot of
01:16:07.810 --> 01:16:10.590
times when you uh some of the special effects
01:16:10.590 --> 01:16:12.949
when there are people involved have not aged
01:16:12.949 --> 01:16:15.750
amazingly and sometimes when you have the stuff
01:16:15.750 --> 01:16:19.350
like them having punches or silly like uh we
01:16:19.350 --> 01:16:21.409
didn't talk about this but in the episode war
01:16:21.409 --> 01:16:24.529
stories there's a moment where zoe does this
01:16:24.529 --> 01:16:27.670
weird little roll before she draws two guns and
01:16:27.670 --> 01:16:30.069
shoots people and i'm like Like that looks very
01:16:30.069 --> 01:16:32.609
bad and impractical in a firefight. So some of
01:16:32.609 --> 01:16:34.449
the firefight scenes, they don't look great.
01:16:34.550 --> 01:16:37.010
They show their TV budget. And I think there's
01:16:37.010 --> 01:16:39.149
a lot of emphasis on that. It's just overall
01:16:39.149 --> 01:16:41.930
kind of a bummer. Mandy is a really interesting
01:16:41.930 --> 01:16:44.569
character. And then she is very quietly killed
01:16:44.569 --> 01:16:47.210
for falling for the main character. And that's
01:16:47.210 --> 01:16:49.649
unfortunate and an unfortunate trope as well.
01:16:49.869 --> 01:16:53.430
Yeah, I didn't like the traitor girl. So yeah,
01:16:53.510 --> 01:16:55.649
it's not. I did like that Petaline gets to shoot
01:16:55.649 --> 01:16:58.619
Rance Burgess. Say hi to your daddy. Say goodbye
01:16:58.619 --> 01:17:01.439
to your daddy. Boom. So finally we get to the
01:17:01.439 --> 01:17:05.180
last episode, Objects in Space, written and directed
01:17:05.180 --> 01:17:08.590
by... joss waiting himself river telepathically
01:17:08.590 --> 01:17:11.609
hears the crew members innermost feelings when
01:17:11.609 --> 01:17:14.170
she picks up a gun in serenity's cargo bay which
01:17:14.170 --> 01:17:16.529
she perceives as a tree branch the others discuss
01:17:16.529 --> 01:17:19.149
if she's too dangerous to be kept aboard bounty
01:17:19.149 --> 01:17:21.949
hunter jubile early sneaks aboard the ship intent
01:17:21.949 --> 01:17:24.750
on claiming the bounty set for river and simon
01:17:24.750 --> 01:17:27.390
early incapacitates the crew and forces simon
01:17:27.390 --> 01:17:29.750
to help him locate river who is seemingly vanished
01:17:29.750 --> 01:17:32.369
while searching the ship early recites existential
01:17:32.369 --> 01:17:35.430
philosophy claiming to not be evil simply in
01:17:35.529 --> 01:17:37.630
incentivized to do what is necessary. River's
01:17:37.630 --> 01:17:39.710
voice appears in the PA system, claiming that
01:17:39.710 --> 01:17:42.409
River melted and fused with serenity. Early is
01:17:42.409 --> 01:17:45.029
disbelieving, but the voice is omniscient, knowing
01:17:45.029 --> 01:17:47.489
extensive details of Early's delinquent behavior.
01:17:47.850 --> 01:17:50.369
The voice muses that Early enjoys violence and
01:17:50.369 --> 01:17:53.390
is not merely incentivized to be violent. Secretly,
01:17:53.390 --> 01:17:55.850
the voice individually mobilizes the crew in
01:17:55.850 --> 01:17:58.729
a plot to force Early off the ship. Early realizes
01:17:58.729 --> 01:18:01.369
River has snuck aboard his own spacecraft. River
01:18:01.369 --> 01:18:03.289
tells him she will go willingly, heading back
01:18:03.289 --> 01:18:05.470
to his craft to join her early. Early is ambushed
01:18:05.470 --> 01:18:07.930
by Mal, who pushes him away into space, carrying
01:18:07.930 --> 01:18:10.529
out River's plan. River is embraced by the crew.
01:18:10.750 --> 01:18:13.989
Early floats alone in space, saying the last
01:18:13.989 --> 01:18:19.069
line of the show, Welp, here I am. There is nothing
01:18:19.069 --> 01:18:23.489
wrong with the idea of this episode, in theory.
01:18:23.770 --> 01:18:28.529
The basics of the plot are just fine. The execution
01:18:28.529 --> 01:18:33.199
of it leaves something to be desired. Yeah. So
01:18:33.199 --> 01:18:38.140
this is the one I watched the episode commentary
01:18:38.140 --> 01:18:40.939
on because we had just watched this episode and
01:18:40.939 --> 01:18:44.260
I was curious. First of all, one thing that stood
01:18:44.260 --> 01:18:47.920
out to me on the commentary on this episode,
01:18:48.239 --> 01:18:53.199
Joss Whedon has so many ums. He says um so many
01:18:53.199 --> 01:18:57.399
times. And as someone who spends so much time.
01:18:57.949 --> 01:19:00.590
cutting out any ums that we have in our podcast.
01:19:00.710 --> 01:19:04.090
I am so mad that no one bothered to cut any of
01:19:04.090 --> 01:19:08.310
those out for his. presumably several thousand
01:19:08.310 --> 01:19:11.149
dollars of recording session because that was
01:19:11.149 --> 01:19:13.590
done in a professional studio while he was recording
01:19:13.590 --> 01:19:16.430
that. And no one bothered to edit it or cut those
01:19:16.430 --> 01:19:18.949
ums out. There were also a lot of ums and some
01:19:18.949 --> 01:19:21.369
of the other behind the scenes things he appeared
01:19:21.369 --> 01:19:23.710
in. One thing that stood out, he also mentioned
01:19:23.710 --> 01:19:26.770
this story about he was having a hard time breaking
01:19:26.770 --> 01:19:29.350
the script because they had they were trying
01:19:29.350 --> 01:19:31.850
to come up with ideas for episodes. And this
01:19:31.850 --> 01:19:34.250
was one that he was having a hard time doing
01:19:34.250 --> 01:19:38.470
it to mine. Minear suggested Boba Fett from Star
01:19:38.470 --> 01:19:40.289
Wars, who's a bounty hunter who appears in The
01:19:40.289 --> 01:19:43.090
Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. Originally,
01:19:43.350 --> 01:19:45.829
he's had some other appearances since, but he
01:19:45.829 --> 01:19:48.489
suggested Boba Fett. But to Minear apparently
01:19:48.489 --> 01:19:53.409
mispronounced it as Boba Fett. And Joss Whedon
01:19:53.409 --> 01:19:57.729
tells this story with incredulousness, really
01:19:57.729 --> 01:20:01.909
mocking Minear and really saying like. How do
01:20:01.909 --> 01:20:04.729
you not know how to pronounce Boba Fett's name?
01:20:04.970 --> 01:20:07.449
He told the story in the commentary for this
01:20:07.449 --> 01:20:11.210
episode, but he also told it in one of the behind
01:20:11.210 --> 01:20:14.210
the scenes anecdotes. So like this is clearly
01:20:14.210 --> 01:20:17.050
a story that Whedon has told multiple times because
01:20:17.050 --> 01:20:20.970
it appears multiple times on this Firefly Blu
01:20:20.970 --> 01:20:24.390
-ray. And it's it's just emblematic of that alpha
01:20:24.390 --> 01:20:27.789
nerd. I'm gatekeeping. I'm going to make fun
01:20:27.789 --> 01:20:31.689
of somebody because he. mispronounced a Star
01:20:31.689 --> 01:20:34.909
Wars character's name. Star Wars, the franchise
01:20:34.909 --> 01:20:37.789
that everyone makes fun of because of the absolutely
01:20:37.789 --> 01:20:41.170
ridiculous names that characters have. The joke
01:20:41.170 --> 01:20:44.050
being Glupshido is everyone's favorite Star Wars
01:20:44.050 --> 01:20:47.510
character because they have stupid names. So
01:20:47.510 --> 01:20:50.430
he got the name correct, but just pronounced
01:20:50.430 --> 01:20:54.189
it slightly wrong. Boba Fett instead of Boba
01:20:54.189 --> 01:20:56.489
Fett. How much does the name get pronounced in
01:20:56.489 --> 01:20:59.760
the movies? I mean, a few times. It's like, it's
01:20:59.760 --> 01:21:03.000
not that big of a deal. But the fact that Whedon
01:21:03.000 --> 01:21:07.119
presumably made relentless fun of Tim Minear,
01:21:07.140 --> 01:21:10.140
he says he made relentless fun of Tim Minear
01:21:10.140 --> 01:21:13.640
for pronouncing the name wrong. And then he's
01:21:13.640 --> 01:21:16.500
repeated the anecdote several times and not in
01:21:16.500 --> 01:21:19.640
a way of like, I'm an asshole. I was making fun
01:21:19.640 --> 01:21:21.760
of him for this in a way of, can you believe
01:21:21.760 --> 01:21:24.640
this guy couldn't remember? Oh my God, shut up.
01:21:25.979 --> 01:21:28.539
I want to talk about the scene where Early's
01:21:28.539 --> 01:21:32.800
first lines, we see Early observing the crew
01:21:32.800 --> 01:21:36.880
and listening in on the crew talking about what
01:21:36.880 --> 01:21:39.539
to do with River. Well, real quick, I do like
01:21:39.539 --> 01:21:43.119
the execution of letting us see River's perspective
01:21:43.119 --> 01:21:46.479
on things and letting us see how her what appear
01:21:46.479 --> 01:21:50.470
to be. powers are manifesting and seeing these
01:21:50.470 --> 01:21:53.789
characters and her thoughts and how River is
01:21:53.789 --> 01:21:55.770
manifesting that in the scene where she picks
01:21:55.770 --> 01:22:00.130
up the branch from the the floor of the cargo
01:22:00.130 --> 01:22:02.970
bay, stuff like that. It's a it's very well executed
01:22:02.970 --> 01:22:06.210
episode. Early comes in. As soon as he sees Mal,
01:22:06.350 --> 01:22:08.970
he immediately fights, takes Mal out. He sees
01:22:08.970 --> 01:22:11.170
Kaylee and he knows Kaylee is not a threat. So
01:22:11.170 --> 01:22:14.970
he decides to toy with her. This scene is awful.
01:22:15.149 --> 01:22:19.329
It's horrible to watch. So this is where I felt
01:22:19.329 --> 01:22:25.090
so gross and so uncomfortable. And not only because
01:22:25.090 --> 01:22:28.550
of the content of the scene, but because of the
01:22:28.550 --> 01:22:33.569
implications and the optics of it. Yeah, this
01:22:33.569 --> 01:22:36.409
is a character, first of all, we haven't had
01:22:36.409 --> 01:22:40.619
on the show. We haven't had any black villains.
01:22:40.859 --> 01:22:43.380
Yeah. Really? No black villains. There are black
01:22:43.380 --> 01:22:45.439
characters. There's black characters on the crew.
01:22:45.659 --> 01:22:47.859
There are only black and white characters. There's
01:22:47.859 --> 01:22:50.000
no other races. Well, okay. So yeah, so there's
01:22:50.000 --> 01:22:52.739
not a ton of diversity. And I also think, you
01:22:52.739 --> 01:22:55.500
know, not to suggest that there was any intentionality
01:22:55.500 --> 01:22:58.840
here, but still, you know, intention doesn't
01:22:58.840 --> 01:23:04.300
really matter that much. Zoe and Book. are both
01:23:04.300 --> 01:23:08.020
light skinned yeah and this character is darker
01:23:08.020 --> 01:23:12.100
skinned and there is that there's um there's
01:23:12.100 --> 01:23:15.600
definitely elements of like that's not irrelevant
01:23:15.600 --> 01:23:18.380
yeah that that is something that that is and
01:23:18.380 --> 01:23:22.529
just for disclosure we are both pasty lily. Yes.
01:23:23.529 --> 01:23:27.149
Very white, extremely white. But it's not a great
01:23:27.149 --> 01:23:30.090
look when you have a character who is darker
01:23:30.090 --> 01:23:34.789
skinned. It's a very gross stereotype. And the
01:23:34.789 --> 01:23:38.270
first thing this character does is threatens
01:23:38.270 --> 01:23:42.130
one of the nicest characters on the show with
01:23:42.130 --> 01:23:47.430
sexual violence. And it's so overt too. That's
01:23:47.430 --> 01:23:49.710
the other thing. Not that it would be okay regardless,
01:23:49.869 --> 01:23:52.869
but We've talked through the course of this episode
01:23:52.869 --> 01:23:55.470
about how many of these episodes there's nuanced
01:23:55.470 --> 01:23:59.869
language and portrayals of some of the dynamics
01:23:59.869 --> 01:24:02.569
between these characters. And he literally says
01:24:02.569 --> 01:24:05.729
to her. Your body is forfeit. First, he says,
01:24:05.829 --> 01:24:08.460
have you ever been raped? Yeah. He says, have
01:24:08.460 --> 01:24:11.159
you ever been raped? And then he says, yes, I'm
01:24:11.159 --> 01:24:13.800
going to do whatever I want to you. Your body
01:24:13.800 --> 01:24:16.359
is forfeit. It's disgusting. Yeah, it's completely
01:24:16.359 --> 01:24:19.579
unnecessary. It is playing into a stereotype
01:24:19.579 --> 01:24:22.760
that white women should be afraid of black men
01:24:22.760 --> 01:24:25.319
committing sexual violence against them. That
01:24:25.319 --> 01:24:28.460
is a really ugly stereotype. And if you want
01:24:28.460 --> 01:24:31.680
to give them the benefit of the doubt and say
01:24:31.680 --> 01:24:35.119
their whole thing is they are trying to be progressive
01:24:35.119 --> 01:24:38.800
and colorblind and casting or whatever. Okay.
01:24:39.119 --> 01:24:43.199
Except you haven't had any other characters threaten
01:24:43.199 --> 01:24:46.720
sexual violence really to anyone for the rest
01:24:46.720 --> 01:24:51.680
of the show. I mean, there is a threat of sexual
01:24:51.680 --> 01:24:53.760
violence just running through as sort of with
01:24:53.760 --> 01:24:56.640
the old general Old West theme. Yeah. But no
01:24:56.640 --> 01:25:00.000
one has explicitly threatened sexual violence
01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:03.180
at any point before this show. It's the first
01:25:03.180 --> 01:25:08.140
thing that he does after knocking out Mal. It's
01:25:08.140 --> 01:25:11.840
literally his first dialogue. And it is directed
01:25:11.840 --> 01:25:15.840
at the nicest character on the show, who is,
01:25:16.020 --> 01:25:18.800
unfortunately, more often a victim than not.
01:25:18.920 --> 01:25:22.720
Yeah. She is regularly shot, held hostage, or
01:25:22.720 --> 01:25:25.760
bad things happen to Kaylee. And part of that
01:25:25.760 --> 01:25:30.279
is because sh - She is a very likable character.
01:25:30.479 --> 01:25:33.140
She plays the character very likably. I assume
01:25:33.140 --> 01:25:36.699
that was part of the intent is to make you as
01:25:36.699 --> 01:25:40.279
a viewer uncomfortable, to make you unsettled,
01:25:40.300 --> 01:25:43.460
to make you afraid for Kaylee. I think in the
01:25:43.460 --> 01:25:50.680
context of 2002, you could, as a viewer on Friday
01:25:50.680 --> 01:25:54.520
night broadcast television, probably reliably
01:25:54.520 --> 01:25:57.460
assume that no one was. going to be sexually
01:25:57.460 --> 01:26:01.520
assaulted. So there was probably that bit of
01:26:01.520 --> 01:26:04.640
comfort in that context, but it's aged really.
01:26:05.440 --> 01:26:08.460
Horribly. Just really, yeah, very terribly. What
01:26:08.460 --> 01:26:11.020
Joss Whedon said about this scene in the commentary.
01:26:11.300 --> 01:26:13.539
So two things. First of all, he talked about
01:26:13.539 --> 01:26:17.260
how Jewel State played it. He said that he did
01:26:17.260 --> 01:26:20.319
two takes of her and she did it kind of normally.
01:26:20.460 --> 01:26:23.199
And he said, don't hold anything back. Do it
01:26:23.199 --> 01:26:26.659
as over the top as you want, as you can. And
01:26:26.659 --> 01:26:28.340
she said, okay, I'm going to really go for it.
01:26:28.380 --> 01:26:30.939
And he said, that's the take they used. She really,
01:26:30.939 --> 01:26:34.340
she really sold it. And honestly, that's part
01:26:34.340 --> 01:26:37.460
of it. what makes it so unsettling is because
01:26:37.460 --> 01:26:41.680
she sells the shit out of her fear. And that
01:26:41.680 --> 01:26:43.739
makes it really hard to watch because here's
01:26:43.739 --> 01:26:46.300
this character that is a lovable character. It's
01:26:46.300 --> 01:26:51.770
a character I named my kitten after. Yes. And
01:26:51.770 --> 01:26:54.670
there is a man who is twice her size, a large
01:26:54.670 --> 01:26:57.750
threatening black man threatening to rape her
01:26:57.750 --> 01:27:01.050
if she doesn't comply. It's awful. Yeah. It's
01:27:01.050 --> 01:27:04.050
really, really awful. And it lends such a sour
01:27:04.050 --> 01:27:07.069
note to the rest of the episode. It's hard now
01:27:07.069 --> 01:27:09.960
to come back. from that. The other thing that
01:27:09.960 --> 01:27:11.640
Joss Whedon said about this in the commentary,
01:27:11.880 --> 01:27:14.380
he said, this is one of those scenes you write.
01:27:14.779 --> 01:27:17.560
This is this is so funny, especially in the context
01:27:17.560 --> 01:27:20.619
of now what we've discussed about Joss Whedon
01:27:20.619 --> 01:27:22.199
and everything. He said, this is one of those
01:27:22.199 --> 01:27:24.680
scenes you write and then you worry that maybe
01:27:24.680 --> 01:27:26.819
you're not as good a person as you hoped you
01:27:26.819 --> 01:27:31.470
were. Just as creepy as possible. Yeah. I mean,
01:27:31.550 --> 01:27:34.550
so that is the thing is that, again, I don't
01:27:34.550 --> 01:27:36.810
even like, okay, so it's our first black villain.
01:27:36.850 --> 01:27:39.409
That's fine. Black actors can play villains that
01:27:39.409 --> 01:27:42.369
like I. That's I from what I understand, they
01:27:42.369 --> 01:27:44.250
want to be able black actors want to be able
01:27:44.250 --> 01:27:46.529
to portray. I mean, I guess Erica Tazel kind
01:27:46.529 --> 01:27:50.109
of counts in that one episode of in safe. She's
01:27:50.109 --> 01:27:53.649
the woman who accuses River of being a witch.
01:27:53.729 --> 01:27:57.130
So. Oh, right. True. Kind of. Yeah. All right.
01:27:57.189 --> 01:27:59.270
But like, that's not really my issue. And it's
01:27:59.270 --> 01:28:01.510
not even so much what he's doing. Like, take
01:28:01.510 --> 01:28:03.369
the sexual violence component out of it. The
01:28:03.369 --> 01:28:06.289
fact that he, you know, Kaylee's awake. He ties
01:28:06.289 --> 01:28:09.069
her up. He wants to incapacitate the crew. He
01:28:09.069 --> 01:28:10.750
locks the. rest of them in their quarters so
01:28:10.750 --> 01:28:12.329
he can do what he wants to do. Like, that's all
01:28:12.329 --> 01:28:14.529
fine. I don't really have issue with that. It's
01:28:14.529 --> 01:28:18.909
the very, again, overt, explicit threat of sexual
01:28:18.909 --> 01:28:22.489
violence. And then some of the other things that
01:28:22.489 --> 01:28:25.409
he's threatening. I mean, he is being portrayed
01:28:25.409 --> 01:28:30.729
as a depraved monster. And my question is, why?
01:28:31.010 --> 01:28:34.130
Why can he not just be a bounty hunter who's
01:28:34.130 --> 01:28:37.350
trying to capture Simon and River? Yeah. Why
01:28:37.350 --> 01:28:40.600
do you have to, like... There wasn't reason to
01:28:40.600 --> 01:28:44.699
have that dark of a scene in your silly space
01:28:44.699 --> 01:28:49.000
cowboy show. I remember thinking it's unsettling.
01:28:49.039 --> 01:28:51.800
I remember on first watch thinking that it is
01:28:51.800 --> 01:28:54.979
it made him a formidable villain. But really
01:28:54.979 --> 01:28:58.979
now, which is the benefit of age and time and
01:28:58.979 --> 01:29:02.619
context and everything else, it has spoiled like
01:29:02.619 --> 01:29:05.180
milk. Yeah, it's such a bad scene. The rest of
01:29:05.180 --> 01:29:08.340
the episode is. fine i think he's an interesting
01:29:08.340 --> 01:29:11.560
character the when he mishears things it's a
01:29:11.560 --> 01:29:15.340
funny weird quirk that i like i wish more shows
01:29:15.340 --> 01:29:17.199
did things like that where they have interesting
01:29:17.199 --> 01:29:20.180
one -off characters who have weird what did he
01:29:20.180 --> 01:29:23.039
say am i a lion oh yeah are you a lion am i a
01:29:23.039 --> 01:29:25.420
lion i've never really thought about myself as
01:29:25.420 --> 01:29:28.199
a lion yeah and oh the other scene where he's
01:29:28.199 --> 01:29:29.819
like you're a bounty hunter and he's like no
01:29:29.819 --> 01:29:31.859
it's not that at all well then what are you i'm
01:29:31.859 --> 01:29:36.819
a bounty hunter and fun and like again even if
01:29:36.819 --> 01:29:39.260
he was threatening it just it there's there's
01:29:39.260 --> 01:29:42.439
so much intensity and so much depravity to the
01:29:42.439 --> 01:29:44.739
way that he's threatening again not even just
01:29:44.739 --> 01:29:46.399
the sexual component but just when he's with
01:29:46.399 --> 01:29:48.140
Simon too some of the things that he says to
01:29:48.140 --> 01:29:50.739
him they're just it's like he is relishing the
01:29:50.739 --> 01:29:53.319
idea of the violence in a way that doesn't really
01:29:53.319 --> 01:29:55.300
fit the tone of the show so I think no matter
01:29:55.300 --> 01:29:57.220
who was playing that character I probably would
01:29:57.220 --> 01:30:00.159
have questioned like wow this feels really dark
01:30:00.159 --> 01:30:04.100
and really menacing for a show that's been kind
01:30:04.100 --> 01:30:07.920
of more silly i mean even even in the um heart
01:30:07.920 --> 01:30:10.579
of gold heart of gold episode like rance burgess
01:30:10.579 --> 01:30:13.359
is kind of menacing but he's also kind of ridiculous
01:30:13.359 --> 01:30:15.960
i mean i was laughing when he when he when they're
01:30:15.960 --> 01:30:19.279
riding in for the yeah he's got the big goofy
01:30:19.279 --> 01:30:21.840
goggles yeah yeah i mean his most menacing thing
01:30:21.840 --> 01:30:24.979
is when he makes the traitorous sex worker thank
01:30:24.979 --> 01:30:28.779
you give him a blow job in front of his group
01:30:28.779 --> 01:30:32.210
of Even then, he turns around and says, get on
01:30:32.210 --> 01:30:33.869
your knees. And I'm like, was he just giving
01:30:33.869 --> 01:30:39.359
that whole speech with his genitals out? And
01:30:39.359 --> 01:30:41.680
I literally said when he was riding in with those
01:30:41.680 --> 01:30:43.840
goggles on, he looks so ridiculous. So there
01:30:43.840 --> 01:30:46.359
was still an element of silliness to it. Yeah,
01:30:46.399 --> 01:30:48.739
there's definitely an element of cartoonishness
01:30:48.739 --> 01:30:51.600
to it. And Early, even the character of Early,
01:30:51.680 --> 01:30:56.100
is ultimately not as menacing. But that scene
01:30:56.100 --> 01:30:59.779
is so bad. And it's a hard scene to recover from.
01:30:59.939 --> 01:31:03.479
And again, I was going to say, I would have felt
01:31:03.479 --> 01:31:05.680
that way no matter who was playing that character.
01:31:05.899 --> 01:31:07.779
But then when you take that casting compared
01:31:07.779 --> 01:31:10.560
to the rest of it, the cast and what we've seen,
01:31:10.659 --> 01:31:15.560
it has an ugliness to it that I did not like.
01:31:15.880 --> 01:31:20.619
And I think if you were to look at it, this episode
01:31:20.619 --> 01:31:24.659
is emblematic of everything that is good and
01:31:24.659 --> 01:31:29.560
bad about Joss Whedon's writing. He has this
01:31:29.560 --> 01:31:32.899
really excellent sense of character, this really
01:31:32.899 --> 01:31:36.979
excellent world building, and has a way around
01:31:36.979 --> 01:31:41.649
dialogue. that lets you get to know these characters
01:31:41.649 --> 01:31:45.369
in a very compressed amount of time. That's one
01:31:45.369 --> 01:31:47.270
of the reasons why he worked really well in the
01:31:47.270 --> 01:31:49.529
medium of television, because he could do a lot
01:31:49.529 --> 01:31:52.630
of really efficient storytelling in a unique
01:31:52.630 --> 01:31:57.430
way. But there is this undercurrent of misogyny
01:31:57.430 --> 01:32:03.189
and obliviousness to why something might not
01:32:03.189 --> 01:32:07.649
be good optically and might not work from a story.
01:32:07.689 --> 01:32:11.489
And why something ages poorly. So this episode
01:32:11.489 --> 01:32:14.149
is it's it's really it's it's like the extremes
01:32:14.149 --> 01:32:18.029
of Joss Whedon stuffed into a single episode
01:32:18.029 --> 01:32:20.869
of television. And so it really is. It was just
01:32:20.869 --> 01:32:23.130
so unnecessary because I feel like this episode
01:32:23.130 --> 01:32:25.529
could there were good things about this episode.
01:32:25.550 --> 01:32:29.729
And I I just but I my stomach turned and I just
01:32:29.729 --> 01:32:33.500
like, yeah, you're I could not. get past that.
01:32:33.560 --> 01:32:38.220
I felt my skin was crawling and I felt just gross
01:32:38.220 --> 01:32:41.079
through the whole episode. I have not been able
01:32:41.079 --> 01:32:44.500
to substantiate this. Early survives. I read
01:32:44.500 --> 01:32:48.880
this is like. reddit rumors so i i have not found
01:32:48.880 --> 01:32:51.939
that original source on this but i did read that
01:32:51.939 --> 01:32:56.119
they had plans on potentially bringing him back
01:32:56.119 --> 01:32:59.720
and possibly even giving him a redemption arc
01:32:59.720 --> 01:33:04.180
and again it's really hard after that not after
01:33:04.180 --> 01:33:09.220
the first thing he does is find the least threatening
01:33:10.489 --> 01:33:12.609
that like i i want the cutest character on the
01:33:12.609 --> 01:33:14.409
show and that's the thing is that because it
01:33:14.409 --> 01:33:16.869
it does make it scarier it makes it more menacing
01:33:16.869 --> 01:33:19.010
it makes it harder to watch it does all of those
01:33:19.010 --> 01:33:20.729
things because it's kaylee and it's not anyone
01:33:20.729 --> 01:33:23.449
else but then at the same time i take issue with
01:33:23.449 --> 01:33:26.609
that too because it's like you choose kaylee
01:33:26.609 --> 01:33:29.470
to do that too to make it the scariest thing
01:33:29.470 --> 01:33:32.210
because she is the character that quote doesn't
01:33:32.210 --> 01:33:35.850
deserve it there it's complicated when you look
01:33:35.850 --> 01:33:37.609
at the other female characters but specifically
01:33:37.609 --> 01:33:39.649
because we have the character of anara there
01:33:39.649 --> 01:33:42.210
who he also interacts with and it doesn't have
01:33:42.210 --> 01:33:45.229
that same undercurrent of sexual violence because
01:33:45.229 --> 01:33:47.970
it wouldn't be as scary because well you know
01:33:47.970 --> 01:33:50.489
then you say oh because that's her job exactly
01:33:50.489 --> 01:33:53.569
and that like i don't there's a lot there and
01:33:53.569 --> 01:33:55.489
I don't necessarily want to get into it all right
01:33:55.489 --> 01:33:57.789
now because we're kind of wrapping up talking
01:33:57.789 --> 01:34:00.829
about the episodes and it's maybe too much to
01:34:00.829 --> 01:34:04.609
get into in this medium, for one thing. Again,
01:34:05.130 --> 01:34:07.329
we're a silly podcast to a certain extent talking
01:34:07.329 --> 01:34:10.289
about movies and now TV shows, but there's something
01:34:10.289 --> 01:34:12.649
there that also adds to the ickiness factor.
01:34:13.090 --> 01:34:16.069
Yeah. It's unfortunate that it's the last episode.
01:34:16.350 --> 01:34:18.550
I think you're right. I think there's good elements
01:34:18.550 --> 01:34:21.720
to it. I think... For the most part, it is a
01:34:21.720 --> 01:34:24.779
decent send off to the show. But that one scene
01:34:24.779 --> 01:34:30.460
really, really screws it up. And it's like having
01:34:30.460 --> 01:34:33.460
a fantastic gymnastics routine and then just
01:34:33.460 --> 01:34:35.340
really kind of fucking up the landing. Yeah.
01:34:35.579 --> 01:34:40.930
Yep. As a gymnastics fan, I concur. Okay, that
01:34:40.930 --> 01:34:44.050
wraps up part one of our discussion of the TV
01:34:44.050 --> 01:34:47.369
show Firefly. To find out our thoughts on its
01:34:47.369 --> 01:34:50.630
2005 sequel movie Serenity, check out the next
01:34:50.630 --> 01:34:53.810
episode of Blind Spots and Second Thoughts. We'll
01:34:53.810 --> 01:34:54.270
catch you then.