Getting Off Legacy CMS the Right Way: A Live AMA with Contentful's Luke Wertz and Nick Switzer

WEBVTT

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All right.

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We are live.

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Amazing.

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Uh, we are on episode
45 of Beyond the CMS.

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Uh, the show started, um, with
the intent to bring the leading,

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uh, thought leaders in the content
industry together to have, uh, open

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conversations around the state of content
operations now and into the future.

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Uh, and I was inspired, um, by the Car
Guys actually, who I listen to on NPR,

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and I just really thought it was cool
that people could call in and get their

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solution to their carburetor problems done
over the airwaves, uh, and have a friendly

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conversation as well, and, and I think,
um, we've just got an amazing lineup

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of great thought leaders here today.

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Um, so just before I introduce special
guest for the week, wanna say thanks to

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everyone who's making some time during
their lunchtime in the Eastern Time Zone,

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and breakfast over on the West Coast.

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Uh, we're live on LinkedIn right now.

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The way the show works is if you have
any questions for any of us, please

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leave something in the comments.

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The technology on our end, um,
should have your comments show up,

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and we'll be happy to answer them.

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If that doesn't work for some
reason, we'll be looking through the

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comments and we'll get back to you.

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Um, or if you're watching this in
the future, leave us a comment, give

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us a like, we really appreciate it.

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Um, I'm Chris Bryce, I'm the
founder and CEO of Dotfusion.

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We are a Contentful partner, and today
we've got Luke Wertz and Nick Switzer

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from the solution engineering team
from Contentful joining us, uh, to

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share their thoughts on, uh, what's
happening in the world of content.

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And I know you guys have engineering
backgrounds, and you're kind of bridging

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over to solutions, and that's really a
great broad scope of information that,

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that you might be able to share with us.

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So, uh, maybe Luke, um, maybe introduce
yourself and, uh, then we'll kind of get

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going and have a really wonderful chat.

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Amazing.

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Thank you so much for having us, Chris.

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Uh, it's a, it's a real
privilege to be here.

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Uh, I'm Luke Wertz.

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I manage the, uh, commercial
mid-market solution engineering team

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for Contentful here in North America.

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And yeah, as you mentioned, I spent,
uh, a whole bunch of years, about 20

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years, on the implementation side,
so, uh, helping implement a wide

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variety of CMSs for a whole lot of
different, uh, types of customers.

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And, uh, now I get to, get to help at
the, uh, solutioning stage, so pretty

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early in planning and, uh, thinking
about how to solve specific business

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challenges, uh, with technology Amazing.

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Uh, Nick, welcome.

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I know you're in the,
in the high mountains.

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Uh, what's going on?

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Yeah, thanks.

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Thanks, Chris.

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Great to be here.

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Um, yeah, joining from Denver, um, one
of Contentful's headquarters cities,

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so we've got a great presence here.

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I think, you know, li- like you said,
and then honestly I would just kind

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of be repeating a lot of what Luke
had to say if, you know, I told you a

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little bit about my background, 'cause
I think we've had the privilege of

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kind of having our careers overlap
for the last, like, 15 or so years.

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But like Luke, you know, spent
about 20 years in the CMS space.

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Um, ran an implementation team for quite
a while before, um, coming to Contentful,

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and now, you know, like Luke said,
sit on the pre-sales side focused on

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consulting, solving business problems.

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My team specifically, uh, supports our
enterprise customers and prospects.

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And, um, I think it's important that I
set ex- expectations here that I'm not

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the carburetor guy, so let's- We'll,
we'll point those questions towards Luke.

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I think he's, he's doing
more of that type of work.

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Okay.

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I'll talk carburetors, but yeah.

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Awesome.

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Awesome.

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Can't wait.

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Can't wait.

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Um, maybe I'll, I'll kind of, uh,
ask one or the other of you questions

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as, um, to, to keep it simple.

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But Luke, um, do you wanna just talk a
little bit about Contentful's history?

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Uh, I think that the idea was created
in Berlin, I believe, is that right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Can you just share a little bit
about, like, what is Contentful?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So Contentful, uh, as you mentioned,
we, uh, we, we were founded in Berlin,

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Berlin-based, uh, though we have
offices, uh, all over the world now.

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And, um, it really, it really started with
a simple idea, which was, uh, back when

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Sasha and Paolo founded Contentful, in
order to update content in a native mobile

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app, like on a, on an iPhone or an Android
phone, you had to release a whole new

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version of the app in order to just update
the words, the, the pictures, the content.

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And ha- the overhead there becomes
really, really big for teams, right?

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As they're thinking about now
needing to manage multiple versions

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of apps that are out there.

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So the idea was how do we, how do we
make it easier for teams to manage

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the words, the pictures, the, the
digital experiences, and be able to

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deploy them from a centralized location
kind of regardless of the channel.

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So even though it kind of started
off as a, as a native mobile app

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thing, it caught on really quickly
in a lot of different spaces.

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So normal websites that you might think
of leverage this kind of architecture and

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technology, uh, at scale, m- mobile apps,
digital signage, at basically anywhere

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where you need to get messaging to a
device that's connected to the internet,

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chances are taking a headless approach
or using a platform like Contentful to do

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that is gonna make it easier, it's gonna
scale better, streamline the process.

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It's, it's a really cool solution to a
problem that was very emergent, uh, back

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in the, in the early 2010s, uh, when
Contentful was, was founded Interesting.

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And, um, from our experience and to
kind of, uh, align with what you just

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said, one of our larger Contentful
projects was for, uh, a very large

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pizza chain, and the solution required
just that: a centralized content hub,

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let's say, for a mobile app and for a
website, and for the future plumbing for

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display screens at the retail locations.

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You know, like- Mm-hmm … it doesn't
really matter when you use this

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kind of, let's call it composable
or headless architecture, let's say.

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You can really publish anywhere, but you
don't have to change the core f- kind

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of foundation of where your content is.

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Um, I kinda use this word, and I have
a collection now of different people

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giving me definitions of headless, 'cause
I'm still asked this today, and I think

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it's still kind of an industry term.

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Um, the folks who are our customers
and who, who watch this show now and

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in the future are typically marketing
folks, CMOs, VPs of marketing,

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and they're not so concerned of,
like, what the tech stack is.

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They're just really concerned
about the, the easiness of

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their publishing workflows.

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Um, but maybe Nick, do you want to, uh,
give me your best definition for the

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record of, of how you define headless?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, for sure.

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And, and, you know, maybe I'll start by
reframing it just a little bit 'cause

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I think, y- you know, our- Our founder,
Paolo, uh, said something interesting on a

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public internal meeting we had, just that,
like, he never really liked the idea of

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headless because it defined more what the
platform is not rather than what it is.

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And so, you know, I think we, we like
to use terminology like, you know,

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content infrastructure was something
that we came across, like, quite a few

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years ago, and I think now we hear the
term composable a lot in the market.

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And I think not so much to
say, "Oh, Chris, you're wrong.

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Don't use that language," because
I mean, it's a totally- No

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valid term.

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But I think more just, like,
acknowledging that there's some

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interchangeable terms that all talk
about, I think, similar value, right?

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Where the idea is really, I, I like
content infrastructure a lot because

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I think it feels particularly relevant
in the world that we're headed

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into and really starting to live in
today, where you're delivering and

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managing content with, you know, with
agents, with lots of different tools.

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You know, deli- we're thinking
a lot about AEO, we're thinking

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a lot about agentic assembly.

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And really to get back to your original
question, what, what is headless?

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Like, headless is all about separating
the content from the presentation, right?

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And so that's impactful in those
areas because it lets you build your

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content as clearly structured elements
with very clearly governed, um…

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with clear governance and
processes around them, right?

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That are gonna make it a lot
easier to build those use

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cases you're talking about.

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Like, you know, quick serve
restaurants is a great example, right?

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'Cause that's one we have a lot of
customers in that space where, simple

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example, you've got your promo for,
you know, your Tuesday lunch special.

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That's gonna look a little
different on your website.

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It's gonna look a little
different on your mobile app.

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It's gonna look a little different
on your drive up order screens.

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And you're probably gonna have
regional restaurants that wanna

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localize that as well, right?

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And the real power of headless is you
manage that content in one place, you

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update it in one place, and it gets pushed
out to all of those different channels.

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And, you know, you can know that
it's the right content, it's properly

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governed, and, you know, the folks
on the other end of that, those

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experiences, regardless of where
they are, are gonna have a consistent

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way of engaging with your brand.

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Awesome.

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Um, I'm kind of, uh, bending the
conversation around, uh, kind of

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simple terminology, and then we'll
get into some developer speak too,

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because this is really important
for devs who are exploring kind of

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different ways to, to ship and deliver.

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But maybe Luke, do you wanna just
describe a little bit more about the

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headless architecture itself and the
idea behind microservices and kind of

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the greater developer kind of speak
around the opportunities with Contentful?

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Absolutely.

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Um, and at the risk of going, going
too nerdy, please hold me back.

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Bring it.

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No, bring it on.

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Hold me back if, uh- We're- Right?

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Yeah, we're all nerds.

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The, a- again, rooting this in
the, in, in the value, right?

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Like, why do you make this choice?

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Because at the end of the day-

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At the risk, I don't know if I can
say this, like, does your architecture

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matter if it's doing its job?

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Uh, right?

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Like, at the end of the day, we're not
choosing these things for funsies, and

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we're not choosing them out of ideologies.

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We're choosing them because we
need to accomplish something.

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And so when we talk about, about
microservices or a headless architecture

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It, what it is enabling people to do
is f- shift the focus away so much from

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what is the content, uh, in abstraction,
and really center the conversation

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around what is the job of the content.

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Mm.

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Because once you start focusing on, what,
what do I need this content to do, chances

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are where you're presenting it, you
need the content to do the same job- Mm

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… regardless of whether it's being presented
on a website or native mobile app.

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And so working back from this idea of
your content is a job, can you articulate

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what the job of your content is?

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You can, cool.

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Then you can probably express that
in a content model, and now we're

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starting to get into some of the
underlying plumbing that goes into this.

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Mm.

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So now we have this abstract
idea of a thing that helps you

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describe the job of the content.

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Once you have that, cool.

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Now we can abstract this one level further
and create instances of that content.

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So, uh, you can create multiple types of
this content, and you're managing it in

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a centralized place, but you're able to
distribute it to many different places.

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Now, that final sort of, like, last mile
of delivery, whether that be to, you

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know, the mobile app or the website,
regardless of what that last mile is,

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that has a lot of influence on the, the
everything around the content, right?

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That, that experience as a whole.

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But the job of the, of the
editorial team, the marketing

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team, the, these folks have lots of
different titles these days, right?

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But the, the folks who are in charge
of thinking about what are the words-

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Mm … and what's the job that they have,
they get to concentrate that effort in one

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place and have that impact felt widely.

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Mm, mm-hmm.

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So there's my best shot at a non-technical
definition of a headless architecture.

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That is awesome.

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That is awesome.

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And I'm, I'm actually kind of role
playing through some conversations I've

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had recently, also trying to describe,
like, why to consider this composable

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architecture to a very non-technical team.

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Um, I was lucky I had a stakeholder
who was a developer, and I was

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kind of put on the spot and they're
like, "Well, what do you recommend?"

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Yeah.

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And I kind of avoided any platform
specific, but I said like, "Next and

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React, it's awesome for so many reasons,"
and that's kind of a fundamental, you

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know, decision that you can make powering
Contentful with that kind of stack.

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Um, something else came up in
that conversation, which is

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like, "Where do we host it?"

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You know, they're, I think they've got
a, I don't know, a DreamHost server

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or something like that, and it's like,
well, you don't really host anymore,

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but you kinda do, and it, like, kind
of, you know, there's this static site

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generation and, like, an edge network.

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I think, um, you guys might be able to
help clarify some of that stuff as well.

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Nick, can you, uh, take a shot
at, like, how do you answer, like,

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"Where is a Contentful site hosted?"

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Yeah.

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Yeah, and, uh, I mean, piggybacking
on some of what Luke was saying

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earlier, I think, like, it's, it's
easy to get lost in the weeds of that.

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And like, yes, there are important
conversations to be had around,

00:13:51.321 --> 00:13:54.691
you know, your CDN configuration,
how are you thinking about cache

00:13:54.692 --> 00:13:57.542
invalidation, and what's your front
end framework, that you can really

00:13:57.852 --> 00:13:59.142
get lost in the weeds with those.

00:13:59.142 --> 00:14:02.541
But, like, ultimately, you know, what,
what is the outcome you care about?

00:14:02.552 --> 00:14:05.351
And when you think about it from,
you know, a technical perspective, I

00:14:05.361 --> 00:14:08.852
think from that side of the world, it
really comes down to, like, getting

00:14:08.852 --> 00:14:12.401
to market faster and operating
more efficiently as a business.

00:14:12.401 --> 00:14:15.331
And I think, you know, as someone,
again, I know Luke and Chris, you can

00:14:15.331 --> 00:14:18.832
speak to this firsthand too, but as
someone who worked in the world of, you

00:14:18.832 --> 00:14:26.401
know, self-hosted, manually updated,
like, open source CMS, we all know the,

00:14:26.951 --> 00:14:31.621
the personal pain, but also, like, the
organizational investment and resource

00:14:31.622 --> 00:14:36.632
time and loss of velocity that goes
into, you know, m- maintaining hosting.

00:14:36.632 --> 00:14:37.801
I mean, like, we go way back.

00:14:37.801 --> 00:14:40.801
You talk about, like, applying
Linux patches and monitoring for

00:14:40.801 --> 00:14:44.481
security updates and, you know,
applying core platform updates,

00:14:44.481 --> 00:14:46.452
applying plugin or module updates.

00:14:46.452 --> 00:14:49.732
You know, there's, there's a whole world
of work that just stacks up there, right?

00:14:49.732 --> 00:14:54.151
And I think, you know, when you talk
about, you know, where is it hosted

00:14:54.151 --> 00:14:57.292
from a purely Contentful standpoint,
like, it's a SaaS platform, right?

00:14:57.292 --> 00:15:01.371
And I think there's just a huge benefit
to SaaS in the fact that, like, you

00:15:01.371 --> 00:15:03.391
know, we have a dedicated infra team.

00:15:03.392 --> 00:15:07.001
We have a dedicated security team,
and, you know, we have battle-tested

00:15:07.001 --> 00:15:11.232
APIs and CDN configurations that
perform at scale and, you know,

00:15:11.232 --> 00:15:15.781
deliver literally billions and billions
of requests, like, every month.

00:15:16.341 --> 00:15:19.821
Um, and that is all work that
your team is no longer doing.

00:15:19.831 --> 00:15:22.681
And when I say your team, I'm
talking about our joint customers,

00:15:22.681 --> 00:15:23.991
our joint prospective customers.

00:15:23.991 --> 00:15:28.421
That's all work they are no longer taking
on, where those teams can now focus

00:15:28.421 --> 00:15:31.261
on higher value opportunities, right?

00:15:31.301 --> 00:15:34.101
Like, you know, how do we build net
new things that drive the business

00:15:34.102 --> 00:15:36.362
forward in more meaningful ways.

00:15:36.381 --> 00:15:40.342
So again, at, at the risk of, you know,
not completely, like, talking around

00:15:40.342 --> 00:15:42.411
your question, I think I just wanna
make it clear that, like, where is

00:15:42.411 --> 00:15:46.351
it hosted is, like, we handle all of
that from the Contentful standpoint,

00:15:46.351 --> 00:15:48.921
and I think, like, we've got a lot
of great partners in the industry.

00:15:48.921 --> 00:15:52.611
I know we talk a lot about Vercel in
particular as you think about the broader

00:15:52.612 --> 00:15:56.981
network that I think brings a really
similar value proposition to front end

00:15:56.991 --> 00:16:01.392
hosting and delivery, and ultimately
all focused on that same outcome of

00:16:01.741 --> 00:16:03.211
let's help you get to market faster.

00:16:03.211 --> 00:16:07.432
Let's help you be more operationally
efficient and just, you know, do more

00:16:07.432 --> 00:16:11.141
with less and, you know, create the,
the value and revenue growth that

00:16:11.181 --> 00:16:12.611
your company ultimately cares about.

00:16:13.908 --> 00:16:14.358
Super cool.

00:16:14.358 --> 00:16:18.728
I just, I was speaking to our,
our, uh, COO, and she's like,

00:16:19.017 --> 00:16:23.068
"Dude, I just, like, published a
site to Vercel using Claude Code."

00:16:23.348 --> 00:16:26.408
I'm like, "The world is
so awesome right now."

00:16:26.557 --> 00:16:29.278
It's like, wow, that's
really cool, you know?

00:16:29.278 --> 00:16:29.377
Yeah.

00:16:29.507 --> 00:16:33.238
So, um, yeah, shout out to those
guys, and, uh, they're just really

00:16:33.247 --> 00:16:38.237
making delivery of ideas, like,
quick, easy, and manageable.

00:16:38.707 --> 00:16:44.367
Um, now I guess when we talk about
CMSs, 'cause this is a show sort of

00:16:44.367 --> 00:16:48.957
about CMSs, they kind of fall into
maybe three kinds of categories.

00:16:49.847 --> 00:16:54.327
Say there's these kind of maybe legacy,
I think is a fair term, um, kind of a

00:16:54.327 --> 00:16:58.318
WordPress, Drupal kind of ideas that
have been around and matured through

00:16:58.318 --> 00:17:00.027
open source communities over time.

00:17:00.397 --> 00:17:04.707
Um, and then I guess in the middle we
have kind of headless, composable, super

00:17:04.707 --> 00:17:06.457
fast, light, quick to get to market.

00:17:06.858 --> 00:17:10.477
And then there's a term that I'm not
sure is quite right, but monolithic

00:17:10.498 --> 00:17:15.047
seems to be the ones that is getting
passed down the industry more heavily.

00:17:15.407 --> 00:17:20.257
Heavy infrastructure, um, does a
lot of things, sometimes a little

00:17:20.257 --> 00:17:21.847
bit more than people are using.

00:17:22.297 --> 00:17:27.828
Um, I wanna just kind of understand where
Contentful stands kind of in, in the

00:17:27.828 --> 00:17:32.317
range of these types of platforms, and
then we'll get into, you know, a question

00:17:32.317 --> 00:17:36.537
that always comes up from folks that are
looking to move into a more modern stack

00:17:36.547 --> 00:17:38.717
like Contentful is migration itself.

00:17:38.738 --> 00:17:42.587
But, um, yeah, maybe Luke, you know,
what are, what are your thoughts

00:17:42.588 --> 00:17:46.727
on how I've kind of defined that
ecosystem, and maybe add some color to

00:17:46.727 --> 00:17:48.587
it, uh, if you feel it's appropriate?

00:17:49.658 --> 00:17:51.357
I think that's totally fair, right?

00:17:51.537 --> 00:17:57.348
So these, these solutions They emerged
to solve specific problems, right?

00:17:57.467 --> 00:18:03.648
And, uh, when you look at the, the, the
self-hosted, the legacy, the Druples, the

00:18:03.658 --> 00:18:08.987
WordPresses, uh, th- you know, they really
existed to try to lower the barrier to

00:18:08.987 --> 00:18:15.697
entry, get, uh, you know, get, get folks
who are maybe, uh, just starting out,

00:18:15.847 --> 00:18:20.828
uh, and need to, need to get something up
and running, and need a lot of community

00:18:20.828 --> 00:18:22.947
support in order to be able to do that.

00:18:23.538 --> 00:18:25.477
Like, that makes, that makes some sense.

00:18:25.817 --> 00:18:27.918
Uh, it, it's a choice, right?

00:18:27.947 --> 00:18:30.218
It comes with, uh, pros and cons.

00:18:30.667 --> 00:18:35.157
Um, when I think about sort of
the, that continuum, the, the, uh,

00:18:35.207 --> 00:18:37.147
more on the monolith side, right?

00:18:37.237 --> 00:18:39.607
Like, nobody got fired for choosing IBM.

00:18:39.627 --> 00:18:42.368
There's, there are safe
choices perhaps out there.

00:18:42.687 --> 00:18:47.967
Uh, those solutions exist, and they
exist to solve a specific problem

00:18:48.087 --> 00:18:52.807
set as well, um, which may or may
not be related to business problems.

00:18:53.727 --> 00:18:54.598
Yeah, fair enough.

00:18:54.607 --> 00:18:59.848
So, uh- Yeah … when I think about
solutions like Contentful, composable

00:18:59.848 --> 00:19:06.248
solutions, solutions that really focus
on being able to integrate widely to, uh,

00:19:06.277 --> 00:19:11.118
to expedite the process of, uh, migrating
into the platform, like we acknowledge,

00:19:11.667 --> 00:19:16.377
you know, most people are probably
coming to Contentful from somewhere else.

00:19:16.407 --> 00:19:18.717
We have to make that really
straightforward for them to be able to

00:19:18.718 --> 00:19:20.717
migrate, to your, to your earlier point.

00:19:20.727 --> 00:19:20.747
Yeah.

00:19:20.977 --> 00:19:26.257
Uh, like, we sit sort of in this, in
this space where we know that people

00:19:26.257 --> 00:19:28.087
who are coming in need to move fast.

00:19:28.178 --> 00:19:30.677
They need to be able to
move fast to ship things.

00:19:30.987 --> 00:19:36.638
Their needs are gonna be pretty varied
in terms of where they need their content

00:19:36.707 --> 00:19:42.187
to not only be delivered, but where else
in their tech stack they might need their

00:19:42.187 --> 00:19:49.137
content to be transformed or actioned
upon, reviewed, whatever that may be.

00:19:49.178 --> 00:19:54.477
That, like, that's the point of the
API first part of that headless sort of

00:19:54.477 --> 00:20:00.087
definition, is it's super easy to have
content that is created and managed

00:19:54.477 --> 00:20:00.087
in Contentful show up in other places
so that it can be transformed and then

00:20:00.107 --> 00:20:06.087
programmatically written back in without
an editor needing to go copy and paste.

00:20:06.087 --> 00:20:10.057
And so once, once teams start to feel
the pressure, if we think about sort

00:20:10.057 --> 00:20:15.537
of like growth out of those, uh, those
legacy systems, once teams start to feel

00:20:15.537 --> 00:20:20.547
the pressure of like, "I really actually
need my content to do something for me.

00:20:20.548 --> 00:20:24.797
It, it can't just sit
there and be, be there.

00:20:24.877 --> 00:20:27.518
Like, it actually needs to do something-"
That's when we see folks starting

00:20:27.518 --> 00:20:32.606
to look at, at headless composable
type solutions like Contentful's.

00:20:32.606 --> 00:20:37.535
We make it easier to do the
meaningful things with your content.

00:20:38.045 --> 00:20:42.176
We make it easier to do the
meaningful things with your content.

00:20:43.035 --> 00:20:43.386
Yeah.

00:20:43.395 --> 00:20:44.226
Mm-hmm.

00:20:44.265 --> 00:20:48.335
Um, I'm trying to create some
legacy of this conversation that

00:20:48.336 --> 00:20:52.275
would be really helpful for folks
who don't know which to choose.

00:20:52.795 --> 00:20:55.305
Um, you know, just that thinking
and- Oh, just choose Contentful.

00:20:55.356 --> 00:20:55.775
That's easy.

00:20:55.795 --> 00:20:56.495
Yeah, just- Oh, sorry.

00:20:58.725 --> 00:20:59.205
Makes a lot of

00:20:59.265 --> 00:21:01.466
Well, that's what we did,
and it makes a lot of sense.

00:21:01.495 --> 00:21:05.995
Um, I used to roll, um, with
kind of global integration shops

00:21:05.995 --> 00:21:11.085
and, uh, did a lot of AEM work
in my day, and that has a place.

00:21:11.525 --> 00:21:16.805
Um, but I came back to smaller agency
size where we need to get stuff

00:21:16.805 --> 00:21:22.495
done quickly, um, without multiple
layers of engineering as well.

00:21:22.815 --> 00:21:27.355
So another kind of point that is
often, like, maybe not known about

00:21:27.946 --> 00:21:31.835
going with a Contentful type platform,
and Contentful in particular, is that

00:21:31.836 --> 00:21:37.455
we can dev on it so quickly with a
more narrow engineering skill set.

00:21:38.055 --> 00:21:41.165
You know, it's kind of primarily
front end, and we've got a little

00:21:41.165 --> 00:21:44.105
bit of tooling, but man, we can
go lickety-split and get stuff

00:21:44.106 --> 00:21:46.225
done that's really beautiful.

00:21:46.235 --> 00:21:48.945
Our ethos is kind of beautiful technology.

00:21:48.945 --> 00:21:54.735
We love things that look pretty, you know,
and, and we're not limited by kind of

00:21:54.745 --> 00:21:58.995
the, the tooling that's connecting kind
of the presentation from the back end.

00:21:58.995 --> 00:22:03.775
So we're, we're free to run, and I know
your portfolio of projects from global

00:22:03.786 --> 00:22:09.246
brands also backs up the ability to create
really beautiful experiences as well.

00:22:09.695 --> 00:22:10.885
I think that's super important.

00:22:11.845 --> 00:22:15.166
Um- I think we mentioned this.

00:22:15.186 --> 00:22:17.246
Time goes by really quickly
as we get going here.

00:22:17.496 --> 00:22:20.376
But, uh, gotta throw some
AI into the conversation.

00:22:20.626 --> 00:22:27.406
Um, um, I think AI is impacting content
platforms and the e- experience of using

00:22:27.406 --> 00:22:29.696
them in a, in a couple different ways.

00:22:29.715 --> 00:22:34.116
There's AI within the platform, and
then there's the external use of

00:22:34.116 --> 00:22:39.306
your own frontier modeling systems
at your agency, brand, organization

00:22:39.306 --> 00:22:40.955
to interact with the platform.

00:22:41.335 --> 00:22:45.336
Uh, maybe Nick, can you
take us down a, an AI path?

00:22:46.016 --> 00:22:46.525
Oh, yeah.

00:22:46.896 --> 00:22:47.216
Okay.

00:22:47.216 --> 00:22:48.125
Let's, let's go.

00:22:48.675 --> 00:22:49.346
Let's go.

00:22:49.385 --> 00:22:53.276
Um, and I- I- I'm glad you, you mentioned
it 'cause I, I kinda hinted at this

00:22:53.306 --> 00:22:58.315
earlier too, but I think just, like, y-
what's really fascinating that I think

00:22:58.435 --> 00:23:02.995
folks are starting to pick up on it, it
feels like this year probably if we think

00:23:02.995 --> 00:23:06.726
about where this is coming out is like,
you know, there's the delivery side,

00:23:06.795 --> 00:23:09.405
and I think that's kind of what we've
been thinking about for quite a while.

00:23:09.405 --> 00:23:11.735
But, you know, I mentioned the
management side as well, right?

00:23:11.745 --> 00:23:13.705
And I think that's where kind of
going back to that distinction

00:23:13.705 --> 00:23:17.475
between, like, the legacy, the
monolith- monolithic, the composable,

00:23:17.475 --> 00:23:20.176
and, you know, what is headless,
what does API first actually mean.

00:23:20.606 --> 00:23:23.505
And I think that's where, you know,
we're really starting to see some

00:23:23.515 --> 00:23:28.755
interesting impact, um, right now is
Contentful, again, API first from day

00:23:28.756 --> 00:23:31.845
one, and I think, like, we've talked
a lot about the delivery side of that.

00:23:31.845 --> 00:23:35.075
It makes it easier to get content
into mobile apps, into websites,

00:23:35.116 --> 00:23:36.845
into, like, digital displays.

00:23:36.856 --> 00:23:40.466
But it's also API first on the
management side, and what that means

00:23:40.475 --> 00:23:45.855
is everything you do in the Contentful
interface you can also do via an API.

00:23:45.896 --> 00:23:48.845
Like, when you click in that interface,
it's literally just calling what we call

00:23:48.845 --> 00:23:50.595
our content management API under the hood.

00:23:50.975 --> 00:23:53.516
And, you know, getting back to your
question about AI, what that means

00:23:53.516 --> 00:23:57.055
for AI is machines understand code.

00:23:57.256 --> 00:23:59.506
APIs are how machines talk to each other.

00:23:59.565 --> 00:24:05.345
And, you know, by some, you know,
amazing coincidence, like, headless

00:24:05.375 --> 00:24:09.595
platforms and, you know, I would
posit Contentful specifically are very

00:24:09.595 --> 00:24:15.006
well-positioned to interact with those
agents, you know, both through in-platform

00:24:15.015 --> 00:24:17.895
integrated AI, which I think, you know,
we, we have quite a bit of and can

00:24:17.896 --> 00:24:19.685
certainly speak to if, if we wanted to.

00:24:19.685 --> 00:24:22.965
But I think also, like, when you think
about those tooling ecosystems that

00:24:22.965 --> 00:24:25.305
a lot of businesses are using and
really looking at, like, how do we

00:24:25.306 --> 00:24:28.156
start to incorporate agents into our
day-to-day work and get that done.

00:24:28.156 --> 00:24:32.375
Like, agents can natively interact
with the platform and do, you know, all

00:24:32.375 --> 00:24:34.616
of the same things that a human can.

00:24:34.616 --> 00:24:39.418
And I think when you can Combine those two
things into that system we've talked about

00:24:39.418 --> 00:24:43.378
that's really kind of-- Like we talk a lot
about this idea of the process of create

00:24:43.378 --> 00:24:45.108
scale and govern your content, right?

00:24:45.108 --> 00:24:49.047
And when you can have agents creating
that content for you, but then have

00:24:49.067 --> 00:24:52.638
Contentful that's always done the
scale and the governance side of that

00:24:52.638 --> 00:24:56.047
really well, making sure that you have
humans in the loop, making sure that's,

00:24:56.058 --> 00:24:58.918
that's being delivered to all of your
channels in a really dependable way.

00:24:59.347 --> 00:25:03.277
I think that's where businesses are really
gonna be, like, starting to see that

00:25:03.288 --> 00:25:09.138
acceleration from, like, meaningful AI
involvement in their workflows, not just

00:25:09.138 --> 00:25:13.187
kind of like, you know, "Hey, Claude, go
write me a blog post with no idea about,

00:25:13.207 --> 00:25:17.187
you know, what, what I'm-- who I am,
what I talk about as a brand," right?

00:25:17.328 --> 00:25:18.257
Mm-hmm.

00:25:18.257 --> 00:25:18.837
Mm-hmm.

00:25:18.837 --> 00:25:22.507
Um, just gonna take a minute
and acknowledge, uh, someone

00:25:22.508 --> 00:25:24.177
from Denver saying hello.

00:25:24.497 --> 00:25:31.597
Um, and, uh, Gabriel, uh, says, uh,
says on LinkedIn here, "It really

00:25:31.597 --> 00:25:35.497
feels like we passed the tipping
point favoring composability.

00:25:35.497 --> 00:25:39.077
There are differences, but the cost
benefit seems more in balance these

00:25:39.078 --> 00:25:41.397
days, especially with AI coding."

00:25:41.837 --> 00:25:46.168
Um, Gabriel, if you are still
listening, if you can clarify

00:25:46.187 --> 00:25:48.307
that, we'll definitely address it.

00:25:48.308 --> 00:25:52.868
But the one point I'm gonna pick out of
that, that I think is worth just chatting

00:25:52.888 --> 00:25:59.808
openly about, um, and one of the, I
guess, challenges of composable overall

00:25:59.808 --> 00:26:03.217
systems, um, is total cost of ownership.

00:26:03.458 --> 00:26:09.488
Um, and as an agency, we, we
need different methodologies of

00:26:09.488 --> 00:26:14.407
associating total cost when we're
kind of scoping out projects.

00:26:14.447 --> 00:26:19.397
And the interesting part is
the CMS or Contentful itself

00:26:19.427 --> 00:26:21.237
is typically not the barrier.

00:26:21.727 --> 00:26:26.777
It's the-- it's figuring out the
scope of connecting ancillary tooling.

00:26:27.278 --> 00:26:31.187
And I think w- at least, and I'd love
some feedback, Luke and Nick, on this,

00:26:31.187 --> 00:26:37.037
what I'm seeing is that there's been an
acknowledgement from the headless CMSs

00:26:37.067 --> 00:26:43.907
and Contentful in particular, where
they're not so rigidly kind of API only.

00:26:43.997 --> 00:26:48.697
Like, okay, we, we do have a visual
editor and, you know, and that, and

00:26:48.697 --> 00:26:50.748
that move just made a lot of sense.

00:26:50.748 --> 00:26:52.787
So you get the best of both worlds.

00:26:53.037 --> 00:26:56.977
You can see what you're doing, but you're
also working with content models as well.

00:26:56.977 --> 00:27:00.908
And maybe Luke, if you wanna talk
about just this concept of where,

00:27:01.147 --> 00:27:06.038
where, where are you rigid around
the composable idea versus what kind

00:27:06.038 --> 00:27:09.447
of makes sense for people using the
tooling and figuring how much it costs?

00:27:10.614 --> 00:27:11.094
Oh, man.

00:27:11.224 --> 00:27:13.334
Uh, we don't have enough time left.

00:27:13.424 --> 00:27:15.774
Uh- Chat, and we can leave this on.

00:27:16.354 --> 00:27:16.784
Okay.

00:27:17.094 --> 00:27:23.774
So at the root of your question
is about optimizing for humans

00:27:23.784 --> 00:27:28.713
and optimizing for machines, and
the differences between those.

00:27:29.154 --> 00:27:34.884
And when you think about legacy or
monolith platforms, you- you're kind of

00:27:34.894 --> 00:27:37.833
forced into a specific choice, right?

00:27:37.873 --> 00:27:42.634
Like, you either optimize for
the machines or for the humans.

00:27:43.353 --> 00:27:45.163
I promise I'm coming back
to your question, right?

00:27:45.434 --> 00:27:50.103
So where, when you, when you ask,
like, where does a platform like

00:27:50.103 --> 00:27:54.484
Contentful choose to be rigid or
choose not to be, we choose to

00:27:54.484 --> 00:27:56.213
be rigid on the, on the delivery.

00:27:56.734 --> 00:27:58.194
It's structured JSON.

00:27:58.863 --> 00:28:01.683
100% of the time it is structured JSON.

00:28:02.203 --> 00:28:06.723
Now, we're gonna help you take that
structured JSON through our SDKs and

00:28:06.723 --> 00:28:11.234
other tooling that we have, and turn
it into whatever the final form of

00:28:11.234 --> 00:28:17.213
delivery needs to be, HTML for your
website, uh, you know, language of

00:28:17.213 --> 00:28:18.863
choice for your native mobile apps.

00:28:19.953 --> 00:28:23.374
That is about being rigid on the delivery.

00:28:23.993 --> 00:28:27.674
But on the human side, then it
enables us to build tools to

00:28:27.684 --> 00:28:30.063
optimize for the human experience.

00:28:30.294 --> 00:28:36.313
So those, those, uh, immersive live
preview environments, where as a

00:28:36.313 --> 00:28:41.353
user is typing, they get to see the
impact of their work in real time

00:28:41.353 --> 00:28:42.893
before they click the publish button.

00:28:43.193 --> 00:28:48.604
That is powered because of the rigidity
in the delivery, and we can, we can

00:28:48.653 --> 00:28:54.113
cleanly say you can have an API endpoint
that has access to unpublished content

00:28:54.144 --> 00:28:55.983
and an API endpoint that doesn't.

00:28:56.423 --> 00:28:58.764
The one that doesn't is for
your, your public delivery.

00:28:58.764 --> 00:29:03.153
The one that can access, uh, draft
content is for your internal preview, and

00:29:03.153 --> 00:29:05.423
they are structurally identical, right?

00:29:05.463 --> 00:29:11.723
That, that rigidity, that structure,
that governance enables you to do that.

00:29:11.864 --> 00:29:15.853
And then on that delivery side, because
it's structured, because it's JSON,

00:29:15.853 --> 00:29:21.774
it's well, well-described, it's very
tightly formatted, it's already optimized

00:29:21.783 --> 00:29:24.014
for the machines out of the box.

00:29:24.283 --> 00:29:30.593
So you don't have to make that choice of
either/or, or sacrifice too much time to

00:29:30.593 --> 00:29:34.244
optimizing for one or the other Awesome.

00:29:34.984 --> 00:29:35.244
Thanks.

00:29:35.244 --> 00:29:40.674
And, and speaking of time on two fronts,
Gabriel's got back to us with a bit more

00:29:40.674 --> 00:29:43.043
clarity, and he has a really great point.

00:29:43.424 --> 00:29:48.473
So when you're, when you're choosing
kind of your infrastructure, composable

00:29:49.043 --> 00:29:52.423
Contentful allows you to get going
quickly, and I think to his point

00:29:52.424 --> 00:29:56.593
is what he's saying, you add kind
of your modern kind of agentic

00:29:56.623 --> 00:30:01.863
engineering into that tooling, and
you've got an accelerated go-to-market.

00:30:01.873 --> 00:30:06.303
I mean, Claude and Contentful
are like, those guys are best

00:30:06.303 --> 00:30:07.653
friends out of the box, right?

00:30:07.654 --> 00:30:11.363
So we've done all kinds of cool
experiments running really elaborate

00:30:11.363 --> 00:30:15.573
content workflows that used to take
probably like a week of effort between

00:30:15.573 --> 00:30:18.543
multiple teams and this little bit
of content moving around its supply

00:30:18.543 --> 00:30:23.513
chain to like an hour, and it's like
really tasty and it's well done.

00:30:23.793 --> 00:30:27.183
Um, so I think to that point there,
when you're looking at these monolithic,

00:30:27.743 --> 00:30:32.383
um, tool sets that are kind of
sort of sexy in a way to buy, like

00:30:32.383 --> 00:30:34.673
they've got, they've got all this
kind of stuff going on, but the…

00:30:35.243 --> 00:30:36.453
There's Java underneath.

00:30:36.463 --> 00:30:40.223
There's like, like you gotta have
like a really serious bunch of

00:30:40.223 --> 00:30:43.333
folks ready to, to deploy this
stuff, and it takes a long time.

00:30:43.333 --> 00:30:44.533
High pain tolerance.

00:30:44.564 --> 00:30:45.354
Yeah, yeah.

00:30:45.354 --> 00:30:46.843
So- Very high pain tolerance.

00:30:47.593 --> 00:30:51.264
Has, has, has its place, but, uh, we
really love the nimble kind of, um,

00:30:51.533 --> 00:30:53.393
go-to-market, uh, speed we have here.

00:30:53.823 --> 00:30:58.263
Um, just before we head out, I, I,
I wanted to speak a little bit more

00:30:58.293 --> 00:31:02.573
about Contentful the product itself
and maybe some of the, the features

00:30:58.293 --> 00:31:02.573
and some of the roadmap that you're
open to discussing, just to leave

00:31:02.573 --> 00:31:05.403
folks who are listening to like, "Oh,
wow, I, I hadn't thought about this."

00:31:11.046 --> 00:31:11.336
Yeah.

00:31:11.366 --> 00:31:14.516
Maybe Luke, I can throw a couple thoughts
out there- Mm-hmm … and then you can,

00:31:14.516 --> 00:31:15.886
you can chime in with a few things.

00:31:15.886 --> 00:31:19.585
And, you know, without getting too far
down the road of very specific things and

00:31:19.586 --> 00:31:23.386
commitments and stuff, I think, you know,
a- as a business, we're thinking a lot

00:31:23.386 --> 00:31:29.085
about, you know, how, how we can support
creating and optimizing experiences

00:31:29.485 --> 00:31:33.235
for humans and for machines, right?

00:31:33.586 --> 00:31:35.776
And ultimately, I think, you know,
when you think about how that

00:31:35.776 --> 00:31:39.155
translates into roadmap, um, and
ultimately business outcomes that

00:31:39.155 --> 00:31:40.675
come along with those things, right?

00:31:40.676 --> 00:31:45.226
We think about things like, um,
agentic analytics, which you'll see

00:31:45.226 --> 00:31:48.725
from us, uh, very soon that are gonna,
you know, I think bring a lot of

00:31:48.725 --> 00:31:52.446
value because you can close that loop
of, you know, we've talked a lot…

00:31:52.446 --> 00:31:54.976
Like Luke, you talked a lot
about, you know, is, is my

00:31:54.976 --> 00:31:56.375
content actually working for me?

00:31:56.376 --> 00:31:59.935
This is allowing you to create that, you
know, closed loop inside Contentful where

00:31:59.935 --> 00:32:02.096
you can understand, is my content working?

00:32:02.106 --> 00:32:04.295
If not, what else should I try?

00:32:04.485 --> 00:32:05.296
I tried that.

00:32:05.455 --> 00:32:06.135
Did it work?

00:32:06.165 --> 00:32:08.466
And you can con- kind of
continue on with that, right?

00:32:08.485 --> 00:32:12.945
And, um, a- again, I think managing
that with agents so that, you know,

00:32:12.955 --> 00:32:16.875
rather than h- having to go to, like,
a very complex dashboard of data or

00:32:16.876 --> 00:32:19.936
a team of data analysts, you're just
having a natural language conversation

00:32:19.936 --> 00:32:24.645
about, like, "Hey, where does my content
performance suck and where is it good?

00:32:25.306 --> 00:32:27.775
Okay, let's build an audience
and create an experiment for

00:32:27.775 --> 00:32:29.086
where it's not doing so well."

00:32:29.525 --> 00:32:29.875
Right?

00:32:30.465 --> 00:32:35.105
Um, and then kind of taking that a little
further on, um, I think, you know, we're,

00:32:35.115 --> 00:32:38.455
we're really starting to think a lot more
about, you know, I, I've talked about it

00:32:38.455 --> 00:32:42.735
a bit here too, but, like, just agentic
content management, agentic assembly and

00:32:42.736 --> 00:32:47.175
delivery and, you know, how can we help
folks deliver the value their business

00:32:47.175 --> 00:32:49.635
needs faster through those things, right?

00:32:49.635 --> 00:32:53.475
And, you know, I mean, I think this
can manifest in very small basic ways.

00:32:53.475 --> 00:32:58.425
Like, you know, I think sort of a, a huge
pain point that has been a problem at, at

00:32:58.425 --> 00:33:02.495
the enterprise scale for a long time is
just basic questions like, "Find me all

00:33:02.495 --> 00:33:04.476
of my media that doesn't have alt text."

00:33:04.615 --> 00:33:05.515
That can be a pretty- Yeah

00:33:05.946 --> 00:33:09.225
painful process if you don't put a
lot of concerted thought into that.

00:33:09.235 --> 00:33:13.086
I think all of a sudden you bring
a content operations agent into the

00:33:13.086 --> 00:33:17.975
platform, or even, you know, collect--
connect Claude Desktop with an RMCP.

00:33:18.365 --> 00:33:22.126
You can just ask it that question
and have the answer instantly, right?

00:33:22.145 --> 00:33:25.765
And I think it's-- That's, I guess,
maybe the theme I would put forward in

00:33:25.766 --> 00:33:29.466
closing out, knowing that we're a couple
minutes over here already, which is

00:33:29.466 --> 00:33:34.086
like, you know, how can we empower folks
to operate, you know, more efficiently,

00:33:34.086 --> 00:33:38.755
produce higher quality content in
kind of the, the fast moving world

00:33:38.755 --> 00:33:40.315
that we know we're all headed towards.

00:33:40.316 --> 00:33:43.015
But I mean, I know Luke, you spend a
lot of time thinking about this too,

00:33:43.016 --> 00:33:45.145
so I'd, I'd love to hear what I miss.

00:33:46.825 --> 00:33:49.805
I'll give you my 30 second,
uh, 30 second answer here.

00:33:49.816 --> 00:33:52.935
And I love the question 'cause really
kind of the root of your question

00:33:52.935 --> 00:33:54.835
is: What are you most excited about?

00:33:54.835 --> 00:33:55.045
Yeah.

00:33:55.266 --> 00:33:55.635
What's happening?

00:33:55.635 --> 00:34:01.722
Uh, so if I, if I think about the question
in that context- We're, we're at an

00:34:01.722 --> 00:34:09.212
inflection point right now in redefining
what it means to create content.

00:34:09.621 --> 00:34:13.052
And a lot of the folks that I'm
talking to right now, that's, that's

00:34:13.052 --> 00:34:14.451
the problem at the end of their nose.

00:34:14.511 --> 00:34:16.531
That's the thing- Mm-hmm … that
they're thinking about, and it's all

00:34:16.532 --> 00:34:21.491
about how do I type the right prompt
to get the right thing on the screen?

00:34:21.942 --> 00:34:24.361
And I, yeah, I, I have gray hair.

00:34:24.362 --> 00:34:25.962
I've been doing this for a while.

00:34:26.261 --> 00:34:30.501
I can sit here and say, "Okay, I
get that that's the problem that

00:34:30.501 --> 00:34:31.951
you're thinking about right now.

00:34:32.201 --> 00:34:34.982
Let me tell you about the next two
problems that you're gonna have."

00:34:35.241 --> 00:34:38.592
The next two problems that you're
gonna have after you get that

00:34:38.712 --> 00:34:42.641
absolutely dialed in and everybody's
working on that at lightning speed,

00:34:42.891 --> 00:34:45.132
the next two problems you're gonna
have are scale and governance.

00:34:45.141 --> 00:34:45.471
Mm-hmm.

00:34:45.841 --> 00:34:50.591
So as soon as you let the robots start
making the content for you, now all

00:34:50.591 --> 00:34:54.021
of a sudden you're gonna have more
content than you know what to do with.

00:34:54.331 --> 00:34:59.071
How do you ensure that the right
content is scaling, and that you've

00:34:59.071 --> 00:35:03.042
got the appropriate governance
controls in place to make sure that

00:35:03.042 --> 00:35:05.001
you're getting the right content out?

00:35:05.411 --> 00:35:09.382
And when I think about Contentful's
history, kinda like where we

00:35:09.382 --> 00:35:13.524
started- We have great plumbing.

00:35:13.624 --> 00:35:19.054
Nobody likes to buy plumbing, but
our infrastructure is so good.

00:35:19.354 --> 00:35:19.804
Awesome.

00:35:19.814 --> 00:35:25.433
Being able to run agents at scale and
having the necessary controls in place to

00:35:25.444 --> 00:35:31.103
actually scale your content production and
then govern it, those are the, the feature

00:35:31.104 --> 00:35:35.464
sets that, you know, they may not make the
headlines, the, the, the banners and the

00:35:35.473 --> 00:35:42.644
ads and all of that, but that's, that's
what's gonna really change teams' daily

00:35:42.644 --> 00:35:49.614
experience of making and managing content
in the next two, three, four years.

00:35:50.174 --> 00:35:51.393
That's what I'm excited about.

00:35:52.133 --> 00:35:52.623
Awesome.

00:35:52.663 --> 00:35:52.993
Awesome.

00:35:53.153 --> 00:35:56.884
I'm gonna throw down a final excitement
moment, and then, and then add an,

00:35:56.933 --> 00:35:59.963
an M to your, your making, managing.

00:36:00.323 --> 00:36:01.853
I'm gonna throw down migrating.

00:36:02.293 --> 00:36:05.803
Uh, so some of the s- fun stuff that
we're doing here in the Dotfusion

00:36:05.813 --> 00:36:12.373
laboratory is kind of agentic migration
tooling, and, like, we're literally

00:36:12.374 --> 00:36:19.684
moving stuff like thousand pages off
WordPress to Contentful models with

00:36:19.723 --> 00:36:23.163
controls built in, like, over the weekend.

00:36:23.524 --> 00:36:27.233
Like, it's … The AI is really
great at migration and, you

00:36:27.234 --> 00:36:30.053
know, there's intricacies to get
it right and get it dialed in.

00:36:30.533 --> 00:36:33.784
Uh, but when you got Next React
and, like, this just sweet modeling

00:36:33.784 --> 00:36:37.823
of content, that's, uh … So
that's the three Ms of the roadmap.

00:36:38.313 --> 00:36:42.173
Um, looks like we got another couple
hours of cool stuff that we could be

00:36:42.203 --> 00:36:46.403
rapping about, um, and, and maybe we
can do this again, but, uh, people

00:36:46.403 --> 00:36:49.563
are probably finishing up lunch
and looking to get back to work.

00:36:49.903 --> 00:36:53.783
So, I, I just wanna say thanks
to the folks, uh, who have

00:36:53.793 --> 00:36:56.093
commented on our, our thread here.

00:36:56.343 --> 00:36:59.833
Uh, and for those of you who are just
joining, listening, and for folks who

00:36:59.874 --> 00:37:04.323
listen in in the future, we're just
super stoked to share what we know.

00:37:04.643 --> 00:37:06.743
Um, I'm Chris from Dotfusion.

00:37:06.793 --> 00:37:07.983
We are Contentful partners.

00:37:07.984 --> 00:37:11.293
We love building on the platform,
obviously, and can't wait to, uh,

00:37:11.313 --> 00:37:14.883
just show some of the cool stuff
we're doing, um, with agents and

00:37:14.883 --> 00:37:18.214
with humans and, uh, making the
world a better place along the way.

00:37:18.613 --> 00:37:20.634
Um, so thanks Luke and Nick.

00:37:20.843 --> 00:37:25.063
Really, really appreciate, um, your
time and, and making some thought

00:37:25.063 --> 00:37:26.804
space to share with everyone here.

00:37:27.253 --> 00:37:32.384
Um, I'm gonna press some buttons and
end, end the show and, uh, we'll be

00:37:32.384 --> 00:37:35.033
back in a few weeks for episode 46.

00:37:35.483 --> 00:37:36.423
So, thank you guys.

00:37:36.944 --> 00:37:37.503
Thanks, Chris.

00:37:37.543 --> 00:37:37.993
Thank you.