WEBVTT
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I want to welcome you back to Beyond 60 Unscripted.
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And remember, this is the podcast that proves that life after 60 is not about fading out, it is about leaning in.
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I'm your host, Ruth Williams Brinkley.
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And today we are going to be talking about stepping into a new season of life with creativity and purpose.
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This episode is about woodworking.
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That's the topic, but it really is about something larger.
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It's about identity, it's about reinvention, and finding something that is yours when your calendar finally belongs to you.
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I am being joined by my good friend Bob Giff.
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Bob has found a meaningful rhythm in retirement through woodworking.
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Bob, thank you so much for being here.
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Ruth, I really appreciate you having me join you.
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I'm looking forward to our conversation.
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I'd like to start at the beginning of this chapter in your life.
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So just uh by way of reference, Bob and I met, Bob, what did we decide?
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Over 25 years ago, right?
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Yeah, at least.
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Yes.
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So when we work together as health system consultants during operational turnarounds for uh health systems in financial trouble, Bob is an engineer by training.
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However, I want to give Bob the opportunity to briefly add a little texture to his background before we get into what he's doing with woodworking because it's a rich life.
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We're all multi-dimensional.
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So, Bob, share with our audience a little bit about yourself so people know a little bit about you, your family, and the work that you're doing, what are what you did what you did in your big job, what I'm going to call your big job, and and then what you did uh as you transitioned into the into this phase of your life.
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Um I was born and raised in the city of Pittsburgh.
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And my uh father was a laborer, and my mother was a stay-at-home mom because this was, of course, the early 50s when I was born and grew up.
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Yeah.
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The opportunity presented itself for me to go to go to college and go in engineering.
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So I went to the University of Pittsburgh, got a bachelor's degree in industrial engineering, a master's degree in operations research, and started to work on a doctorate.
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Um, only because that was the next rung in the ladder.
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That's what you do.
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That's what you did.
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Yeah.
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Ultimately, I went to work as the management engineer in a hospital.
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And that's essentially an industrial engineer working on process and quality improvement.
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I spent 42 years in hospit in and around hospitals.
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Uh, spent 30 years of my career traveling as either an internal consultant for healthcare system or as an independent consultant or a consultant for a consulting company.
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So 30, I spent 30 years on the road, and you know what life is like on the road.
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Yes, yes, I do.
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We spent a lot of those years on the road uh doing work together.
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We did indeed, in in beautiful places.
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Absolutely beautiful, beautiful places.
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And you know, we we did good work.
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We did high, I like to think we did high quality work.
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But one of the uh things about that work is it's I think the word I'm looking for is ephemeral.
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Yeah, and the the results that the work produces are oftentimes separated in time and space from the work that you actually did.
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Yes.
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And and that contributed to my wanting to find something that was more tangible and more real when I retired.
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Yeah.
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And and I want to dig into that.
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And before I do that, though, I want to uh talk about our Beyond 60 Buzz because it actually uh relates to what you just said, um, where we bring a timely story that connects to life after 60.
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So this week I read a local story about a gentleman by the name of Jason Cates.
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He's a former Marine and retired police officer who has found a new sense of purpose by telling stories of veterans, first responders, and others who have dedicated their lives to service.
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Um, after spending a lot of his life helping people through structured roles in the military and law enforcement, Mr.
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Cates is now using storytelling as another form of service.
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He shines a light on people whose impact can sometimes go unnoticed.
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And it really struck me because it reminded me of my journey and to this, to some degree, of your journey, of my journey with this podcast.
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And that reinvention doesn't have to be flashy.
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Sometimes it is simply choosing a mission that gets you out of bed with intention.
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And I love telling these stories about what people are doing after 60s.
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And I've had conversations with you, and I know you love your woodworking.
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So uh this this is uh this is what we do, and I think everybody has to find their own path.
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So um, first of all, retirement is not an ending, it is a pivot, really.
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Uh the uniform comes off, the title changes, the plane tickets go away, but your need for meaning does not disappear.
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You know, that's what first thing.
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Second thing is purpose often shows up through something concrete.
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For for Mr.
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Cates, it was storytelling.
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For you, Bob, it's building uh different outputs, same underlying need, contribution, creativity, and a reason to keep growing and to stay alive and interesting.
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And the third thing, um, the real question is this if you had to choose one project for the next 30 days, uh people need to think about what would give you energy, what would they do, what would it be, and how much satisfaction would it give you?
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So, Bob, when you hear that story of Mr.
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Cates and bringing these stories alive, what comes to mind for you and what do you think people might misunderstand about reinventing themselves after 60?
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I I think part of it is years years ago back in the strategy field, uh, one of the things they talked about was core competency.
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And you know, it's about finding something generically that you're good at and building on that.
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Uh and and it seems to me that with with that storytelling, uh, this gentleman had that as part of his ability to do, even if it wasn't a primary role or a primary function.
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Uh, similarly, in my case, um doing something that adds value.
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Yeah, uh, it was always something that was important to me.
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And doing something that the result of which was the best it could possibly be at the time.
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Um, it didn't mean it was perfect, it doesn't mean it was ideal, but it's trying to contribute and taking pride in the contribution, not boastfully or not egotistically, but being able to look at that and say, that was well done, and I'm glad I was able to do that.
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And would you say too, Bob, it gives you something tangible too?
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You know, like you you mentioned earlier, uh a lot of our work is intangible, it's ephemeral as you described it.
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But does that give you a certain set of satisfaction, a certain sense of satisfaction, looking at something that you can touch, you can feel, that people can see, or am I misinterpreting that?
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No, I think I think that's spot on.
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Um, that was something that as I thought about what I wanted to do next, having something that was tangible and real was very important to me.
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Um you know, I we dealt a lot in in analyses, we we dealt a lot in the written word, but those things change over time.
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They do.
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Um, yeah, besides, nobody wants to sit and read a 200-page consulting report.
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Um, no, I thought everybody read my reports, our reports page to page, page after page.
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I deluded myself into thinking that.
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Yeah, I th I think that's true.
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Um, I but it's again having that real item that that you can point at and say, Yeah, I made that.
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It's got flaws, it's less than perfect.
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I learned a lot from it, but it's again, it's tangible.
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Yeah.
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Um so, Bob, let's go back to the beginning.
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I want to go, uh uh, how did woodworking become a part of your life after retirement?
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You know, tell us our audience about was it something you always imagined doing, or did it come as a surprise, or just just uh share with us how it became a part of your life?
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I may have been genetically predisposed to doing this.
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Um my my father and his his uncle, with whom he grew up, uh-huh uh both were tinkerers.
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They they both had workshops, they burned both did small things.
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They, you know, they they went through the depression, they went through World War II, um, they lived in an era when you never called the guy, you know, they fixed stuff themselves.
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Uh-huh.
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So that's the kind of environment I grew up in.
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I was either too arrogant or too busy to take advantage of that when I was a teenager or even uh a younger boy because I had games I wanted to play, sports I wanted to be involved in.
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Yeah, but it it incubated.
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Okay.
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Um but uh it's sort of it was sort of in the back of your mind.
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Yeah, I was it was always there.
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And then I bought a home.
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So I had the tapes playing for my father that said, never pay somebody to do what you're capable of doing yourself.
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Yeah.
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So I had some rudimentary DYI tools and learned how to do some of this stuff.
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But it really hit home when I was contemplating retirement.
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And Brenda, my wife Brenda, and I would talk about it, and she made it very clear.
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She said, I have my routine, I have what I do.
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You got to find something to do because I don't want you to become that cliche of the retired guy who follows his wife around the house and then tries to tell her how to do things better.
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So get get alive is what she's basically pretty much.
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Pretty much, pretty much.
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So I I started thinking about those those kinds of things and what what might I experiment with?
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Well, you know, I I've been a lifelong reader, but you can only read so many books.
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Yeah, you can only watch so many movies, you gotta have something to do.
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And as we've talked, you have to have a reason to get out of bed in the morning and get to it.
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Yeah.
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There were, speaking of books, there were three books that really laid some groundwork for me in this.
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One was, I think it's called The Seasons of a Man's Life by Daniel Levinson, written back in the mid to late 70s, where he talks about moving into late adulthood, which is where I'm heading.
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Another one is a book called Mastery by George Leonard, talks about performing at different levels, and you hit a plateau, and you got to be comfortable at that plateau before you move on to the next one.
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Yeah.
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And then the last one is William Bridges Managing Transitions, because it's not the change that one.
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Uh yeah, go ahead.
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Yeah.
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It's not the change that does it in, it's being in no man's land.
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Exactly.
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But as I as I thought about that, I decided, well, I might like to try my hand at woodworking.
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I love wooden furniture.
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Um, we have a house uh that's filled with mission furniture, stickly furniture, and it's it's all wood.
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Um it's woefully out of fashion with the current motifs and things, but that's what we like.
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So very clean lines.
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Those are are are pieces of furniture.
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I've I've seen a lot of those and have a few pieces myself.
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They're very clean lines, they're not fancy or anything, but they they they fit with anything, quite frankly.
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You know, it's it's not the Queen Ann with the funny feet or any any of those kinds of things.
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So I I've always admired that.
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So I thought, well, I'll get some tools and start working at it.
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And one of the theses of the mastery book is you you find instruction.
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So I was fortunate enough to know get to know a guy whose uh wife was the director or the yeah, the director of home health uh here in town.
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He was a master cabinet maker, he was a master turner, and I relied on him to teach me some of these, some of the basics.
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And uh it it was very, very helpful.
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So that's sort of how I started down this path, and it's been incremental over the last more or less 20 years.
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Wow, wow.
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So, so Bob, let me go back just for a moment, a moment and I'll come back to this.
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So, retirement can can be such a huge shift when you're used to traveling every day and and and doing all the things that we know that we did as consultants and even before consulting.
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Um, you go from a very structured career to all this open time.
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So, and you you just mentioned that you have to have something to do.
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Can you take us back to those first few months of retirement and before you found woodworking, first weeks and months, uh before what was it like before you found the woodworking and it became a part of your life and your routine?
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Well, they there's there's the anxiety of what am I gonna do with all this time?
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Yeah.
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And and how am I gonna fill it up?
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I I was extremely fortunate in that this gentleman that I mentioned, Wayne, um, was at the time managing a local wood retailer.
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Um and it's uh it's a it's a a store called Woodcraft.
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And it's uh it's a uh retailer that sells woodworking supplies, woodworking tools, power tools, yeah, and wood.
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And he he nagged me for a while to come and go to work there, you know, come just a day or two a week.
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Yeah, um, so I I did some of that, and it gave at least a day or two a week some structure, so it was it was good, it gave me that opportunity, and more importantly, it introduced me to a new community and a new language, um, because woodworking has its own language, as does any craft, yeah.
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Um, so that that really helped.
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Um so I had a a relatively easy transition.
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Uh and and I, geez, I worked there probably for a couple three years, a day or so a week, and taught some woodworking classes ultimately and that kind of things.
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And I know this would be a shock to you, Ruth, but uh, I helped out with some organization.
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Oh, I've uh Bob, I'm not even gonna tell.
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I'm gonna I have to share with your audience your your very organized uh tendencies, which I'm I'm quite jealous, quite frankly.
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Um, you have one of the most organized sock drawers I've ever seen.
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And I've seen pictures of your workshop, and I know it and I know it is very organized, and I'm sure you wouldn't have been able to work in somebody else's place without organizing it, right?
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Well, I that that is true.
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I have worked in some community workshops.
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Um they're crazy making for me.
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Um and I I contend that I'm organized because I'm lazy.
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Because I I don't want to spend for stuff.
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That's right.
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I don't want to spend all that time running around looking.
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Where did I put down my pencil?
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Where did I leave the ruler?
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You know, but that's that's me.
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Um you know it it makes sense because you can spend a lot of time looking for things if you don't put every what is what did you and I talk about?
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Everything has a place, everything should be in its place.
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Yep.
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Ms.
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Stern, my second grade teacher, uh had a line, a place for everything, and everything in its place.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So it sounds like this hobby has become more than just a way to pass time for you, uh, right?
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Is that it is it is it's um it is it is very much who I am.
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I want to pick up on that.
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Uh so how has that shaped this your identity and who you are?
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Talk about that a little bit.
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Well, I I was thinking about this earlier.
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Um when you go to dinner parties or cocktail parties or any kind of social event, yeah, I don't know if this is true of women, but it's true of men.
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They ask what you do.
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Yeah, they don't ask necessarily who you are, yeah.
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You know, um, they ask what you do.
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Um and obviously when you're working, that's an easy question to answer.
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Yeah, um, but I've seen with so many retired men they don't really have an answer for that.
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Uh because again, they they if they don't play golf or or have an activity, they're they they kind of founder.
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Um I I find I think of myself as a woodworker and a furniture maker.
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Okay.
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Um, because they spend a lot of time at it.
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And you've made some some significant pieces of furniture.
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Uh I I yes, I have.
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I I've made um I don't know, over 40 pieces of furniture.
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Um are those cabinets, beds.
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I know you've made uh chest of chests of drawers or desk.
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Tell tell our audience about some of the pieces you've made.
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I I I've made um bedroom furniture for I got complete bedroom sets for uh some of our granddaughters, yeah.
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Um, which would be beds, nightstands, dressers, uh, blanket chests, mirrors.
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Um, I built a a fireplace surround for our son and and daughter-in-law's house.
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And coincidentally, they we had a conversation last night.
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She wants a console table to go behind her sofa in the living room.
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So I think that'll probably be the next project.
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You've done a charcuterie tray.
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I saw that.
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That's quite a tray, it's beautiful.
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Yeah, uh, you know, but it's serving trays, serving dishes, um just that kind of stuff.
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And it invariably, sometime around October, Brenda finds the picture and says, you know, this will make a really good Christmas present for the neighborhood.
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So then I go out and we make those.
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It's amazing.
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Bob, what I'm curious, what keeps you coming back to the workshop each day after day?
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Um the next perfect piece of furniture.
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Ah, okay.
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:49.119
I had this naive belief in my career that there was going to be this capstone project.
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:56.319
You know, the project that I could always look at and say, that was the that was the best final thing I ever did.
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.599
And there were really good projects with really great outcomes.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.960
But there was never that final one.
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:13.119
And I again I have that naive belief with with the woodworking that the next one's gonna be be it.
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:20.799
Um probably the most well one of the most complicated things I did was Brenda's desk.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:21.279
Yeah.
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:34.480
Because it's got you know seven drawers and pedestals, and um, but as with any woodworking project, it is it's not perfect.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:35.039
Yeah.
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:40.559
Um, there's a a uh fatal flaw of uh woodworkers.
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:47.359
They'll make something and when they show it to somebody, the first thing they do is point out all the mistakes they made while making it.
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:50.799
It's it's what we do.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:57.839
Um, but it's it's a case where, like surgeons, see one, do one, teach one.
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:03.680
Yeah, you you you make one when it's over, you critique it.
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:06.400
Okay, I did this next time I'll do that.
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:14.960
Yeah, and yeah, and I I actually do that consciously um at the end of every project.
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:26.720
I sit down before I deliver it, and I say, okay, I I know I did this, and okay, okay, so I know next time I make something like this, I'll do A instead of B.
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:27.359
Okay.
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:28.400
Okay.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:35.680
So so what does, you know, I know you're aiming for perfection, and you will always be aiming for a perfection.
00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:46.079
So what does a really good day in the workshop though looks like look like for you if you know you're you're gonna find something that you can improve on the next project?
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:47.920
What makes you feel really good?
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:52.079
Well, the cavalier answer is to walk out with all ten of my fingers.
00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:53.200
Well, there you go.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:54.480
That would be important.
00:23:55.359 --> 00:24:11.920
Um but when when something goes right, uh-huh, um, for example, if you're making you're you're joining two pieces of wood together.
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:12.480
Yeah.
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:23.599
Um, whether it's you're putting legs on aprons for a table, or you're putting dovetail joints together for a box or a drawer.
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:31.920
When they fit and they fit flush and true and square, that's a good day.
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:33.599
That's a good day.
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:44.640
I say, I say it's a good day for myself when I'm trying to put together a flower stand or a plant stand, and all I don't have any pieces left over, and they all fit like they were supposed to.
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:52.960
Well, well, in in woodworking, Ruth, there are there are no mistakes, there are only design uh changes.
00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:54.559
No, talk about that.
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:55.440
What does that mean?
00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:05.680
That means you screwed up and now instead of uh instead of scrapping it, you're gonna change tweak the design a little bit so you can salvage this project.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:07.519
Well, that makes sense.
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:07.920
Yeah.
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:10.480
Isn't that how the creativity really comes out?
00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:16.640
Because I would imagine that sometimes you come out with something that was more beautiful or more creative than you ever thought it would be.
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:17.599
Is that true?
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:19.440
That is sometimes true.
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:20.000
Okay.
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:26.559
Um, I there there are two things that that resonate with this that I learned from Wayne, the guy who's taught me a lot of this.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:26.880
Uh-huh.
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:29.680
One is woodworking is all about problem solving.
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:30.319
Yeah.
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:30.880
Okay.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:39.519
And the second thing is the difference between a good work woodworker and a great woodworker is a great woodworker knows how to fix his mistakes.
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:40.000
Yeah.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:41.200
Well, there you go.
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:41.680
Yeah.
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:44.160
Um that that's that's important.
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:46.160
And keep it on your 10 fingers.
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:47.759
Yeah, well, yeah.
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:55.440
Uh, you know, um you you lay everything out, you mark everything.
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:57.279
Well, I'll give you an example.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:05.119
I was making a uh a dresser for Courtney and lay it all out.
00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:07.519
Your daughter, your daughter, Courtney, yeah.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:09.039
Our daughter.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:17.119
And uh do the cuts and realize I made this cut wrong.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:18.079
Okay.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:22.160
Okay, what can I do to salvage this piece of cherry?
00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:31.759
Okay, well, instead of having it be the second shelf, it can be the top sub-shelf.
00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:35.519
I can still use it and nobody's gonna see it.
00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:36.880
Okay, that's great.
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:38.160
It works.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:42.960
That that that is that is a good way to think about it.
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:53.440
That you know, you you you have a vision in mind, but at some point you might make a make a mistake or miss cut or something, and you figure out how to solve it.
00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:55.279
That's that's a good way to think about it.
00:26:55.519 --> 00:27:01.279
Well, and and one of the things I'm I'm sure you've heard me say before, it's it's the newbie attitude.
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:05.200
Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be men out of shape.
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:07.519
That's exactly right.
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:09.599
You we used to talk about that a lot.
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:10.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:14.880
So at this stage in your life, Bob, you're retired, you're you're doing this.
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:16.799
What does woodworking give you?
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:18.960
Um, is it relaxation?
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:20.000
Is it a challenge?
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:21.440
Is it a sense of purpose?
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:25.119
Is it all of the above, none of the above, none of the above, or something else?
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:28.960
It's really about the challenge.
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:29.519
Okay.
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:30.559
I I think.
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:32.880
And yes, it's relaxing.
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:37.519
And um I enjoy it.
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:39.599
I look forward to it on a daily basis.
00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:41.279
I dream about it at night.
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:41.920
Really?
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:43.279
Yeah, I do.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:55.519
Um, because I'll I'll get into a project and that's where the thoughts incubate, and I'll wake up in the morning and say, you know, I really could try this instead of that.
00:27:55.759 --> 00:28:01.759
But it's it's about the challenge because every project I try to do, I try to do something new.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:02.480
Yeah.
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:11.279
Um, this a lot of the smaller stuff is not quite production work, but it's making something I made previously.
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:17.599
But with a lot of the furniture, it's okay, you haven't made one of these before.
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:19.680
How do you go about doing it?
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:24.559
And and oftentimes with furniture, it's here's a picture.
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:26.480
I want something like this.
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:27.920
Okay.
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:31.920
So there aren't plans to work from, so I sit down and try to draw some plans.
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.720
And so you draw the plans yourself in many cases.
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:36.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:36.559
Okay.
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:38.720
Um anyway.
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:42.319
Well, what kinds of projects are you doing right now?
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:53.599
What's what's a drawing your uh aside from the the ones that you've been assigned to do or been asked to do, or been commissioned to do, what what what are you drawn to right now?
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:57.920
Um make make anything that you want it to make.
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:15.279
I I I want to begin to introduce maybe a little less rectilinear, pure mission stuff, add more more curves.
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:21.680
So you're pushing yourself in creative ways to sort of push yourself forward and do some different things.
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:23.759
Yeah, try try something different.
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:24.799
Um, yeah.
00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:32.400
There's a excuse me, there's a a sketch by Francisco Goya.
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:34.640
He he's 96 years old.
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:48.000
He did a a charcoal scratch sketch of himself walking with two canes, and in the margin he wrote a unaprendo, which is Spanish for I am still learning.
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:52.480
And that's that's a for me, that's a theme.
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:55.440
That's yeah, I I want to continue to learn.
00:29:55.839 --> 00:30:02.960
And it sounds like you are, and I and I also imagine your life experience plays a role here too, doesn't it, Bob?
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:12.079
Have you noticed changes in your patients or perspective compared to earlier in life when you were like, you know, going so fast all the time?
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:13.359
Uh yes.
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:28.400
Um, I when you're doing a large project like uh the the dining table, you have a four by seven surface that you have to sand.
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:33.839
You gotta learn patience to sand a four by seven surface.
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:41.599
I mean, you can do some of it with a a drum sander, but at the end of the day, you gotta get out there with a hand sander and so that's by hand.
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:43.680
You have to do that by hand, yeah.
00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:51.920
So that um I I have much more patience with process than I ever have previously.
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:59.119
Because if you don't follow the process, you're you're going to end up with a lot more mistakes.
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:01.839
There's an old woodworking adage.
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:05.920
Would woodworking minus patience equals firewood.
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:08.480
I like that.
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:14.480
Yeah, because if you if you don't have the patience, you can really mess up some expensive wood, I can imagine.
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:22.240
So um one of the beautiful things about woodworking is that it often connects us to others.
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:27.759
And you've talked about the pieces you've created uh for your family or loved ones.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:31.920
Um, any of those that you are particularly proud of?
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:40.000
Or are they are any just anything special about any that you remember even either creating it or once it was created?
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:52.960
Um well, maybe the first dining room set for the the the uh that that I made for the Korean daughters, only because it was the first one.
00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:53.519
Yeah.
00:31:53.759 --> 00:32:02.960
Um, but I I've adopted the philosophy: if I make something and give it to somebody and and they want to chop it up and throw it in the fireplace, that's fine.
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:06.000
I I've I've made it, I'm I'm done with it.
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:07.200
It's uh it's over.
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:08.480
Let's move on to the next one.
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:12.960
So is once you give the gift, it's theirs to do with what you want.
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:16.880
Now nobody's done that to my knowledge, but yeah, it's fine.
00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:27.279
Um, you know, one of the things we we talked about um was the challenges that you face in this stage of life.
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:28.160
Yeah.
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:40.880
Um and particularly with the woodworking, one of the things I found is they there are three stages or three components of it for me.
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:46.640
One is adaptation, another one is accommodation, and finally there's acceptance.
00:32:47.359 --> 00:33:00.559
Adaptation is, for example, there was a time when I could throw around a four-foot by eight-foot sheet or three-quarter inch cherry plywood.
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:04.880
You know, I could lift it, I could put it on a table saw, I could break it down.
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:06.480
I can't do that anymore.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:14.319
I need help to pick that up, put it on uh some stands, and then use a track saw to break that down.
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:17.680
So that's an example of adaptation.
00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:31.359
Um and the accommodation side or to me seems to be things like 30 seconds are getting in 30 seconds of an inch are getting increasingly hard to read.
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:41.359
So I'm I'm getting you know rulers that are a little easier to read and up in the the uh power of my bifocals.
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:43.680
It's it's just the stuff you gotta do.
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:44.720
Oh, I'm doing that.
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:45.119
I know.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:47.920
It's just like you got it up here, you cannot, yeah.
00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:50.720
Yeah, and then finally you gotta come to peace with it.
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:51.279
Yeah.
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:53.680
Um, because if you don't, it'll make you crazy.
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:56.079
That's true, that's really true.
00:33:56.559 --> 00:34:04.000
So, what would you say to someone who isn't sure about how they're gonna spend their time in in retirement?
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:07.200
And and couple with that, why is it so important?
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:16.239
Why would you why do you believe it's so important to have a creative outlet at this stage in in life after that we finish the big jobs and go to something else?
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:19.039
I've what I'm gonna call self-actualization.
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:25.039
Um, because well, let me answer the first one second, I guess.
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:33.840
Um I I think it's it's important to have a creative outlet because it's better to wear out than rust out.
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:44.320
And if you're not exercising your mind, if you're not getting up and getting after something, um all of a sudden it's noon and you're still running around in your pajamas.
00:34:44.960 --> 00:35:00.000
You know, I and and I I rarely had seen people calcify, and you know, um and I I didn't want that for myself, and I I don't think it's good for anybody.
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:01.679
Yeah, it's easy to do too.
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:04.800
You can easily find yourself just sort of walking around, yeah.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:22.960
Yeah, you know, um again, given all the years of getting up on Mondays and catching that 545 flight, you know, I was in the habit of being up at 4, 4:30 every morning.
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:28.960
So I I still get up at 5:30, 6 o'clock and gotta have something to do.
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:32.320
You can only do so many New York Times crossword puzzles.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:33.119
That's right.
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:34.559
That's exactly right.
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:35.039
Yeah.
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:41.280
So how what would you say to someone, going back to my original first question?
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:43.599
What would you say to someone who isn't sure what to do?
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:44.800
How they're gonna spend their time.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:52.320
We talked about Tom Schreier, about finding purpose, and it sounds like you've certainly found purpose in what you're doing.
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:57.519
Uh, what would you say to someone who is, you know, still on that journey?
00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:01.679
They've just retired or thinking about retiring, and they're saying, I don't know what to do.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:05.280
Well, try anything, try something.
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:09.760
Um, you know, all all it can be is a false step.
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:10.400
Yeah.
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:16.880
And it's, you know, there's no failure in it.
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:20.480
It's just you found out what wasn't good for you.
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:29.360
Uh it's it's you know, you it would be like if I had tried pottery or something.
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:29.760
Yeah.
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:39.039
Um, you know, I was I was fortunate because I found a niche relatively quickly and found something that I enjoy doing.
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:44.159
Um, and yeah, again, try try something.
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:46.239
Take go go somewhere and take a class.
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:48.159
Um, I mentioned woodcraft.
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:55.840
Most most towns have places where you can go and take any kind of class you want to take.
00:36:56.079 --> 00:37:01.679
They're community college, um woodworking places, go try it.
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:07.840
Um the the um I mentioned earlier about teaching classes at at uh the wood store.
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:27.599
They have probably four or five classes a week, and and there are people there who have never touched a table saw or a hand tool ever, and they go in and they try it, and some take to it, and some say, nice idea, but this isn't for me.
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:31.599
And do you see women, women and men doing what we're working, Bob?
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:33.360
It's interesting you mentioned that.
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:34.639
I was thinking about that earlier.
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:40.559
When I first started working there, the classes were almost exclusively men.
00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:45.199
I'd say now it's probably 40% women.
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:46.079
Really?
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:57.280
Yes, and that's that's aided by the fact that we have, we, they have, um at least three women who are teaching classes.
00:37:57.679 --> 00:37:58.000
Wow.
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:02.239
So you have some women ex female experts there who are also teaching.
00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:03.760
Yes, yes.
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:17.280
That's there there are classes from making kitchen cabinets to doing scroll saw ornaments for Christmas and everything in between.
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:20.000
And we have kids' classes and and that kind of stuff.
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:28.000
So it's um again, going back to your question about I I don't know what I want to do next, try something.
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:35.519
And it doesn't have you know, we we we talked to Leslie Breiksick, who wrote the book on revealing your next seasons.
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.719
It does if even if you like it, it doesn't mean you have to do just that.
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:40.559
You could do something else too.
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:42.159
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:51.440
Um, we I think part of the mythology is that we, you know, we have one thing that we do.
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:52.159
Yeah.
00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:55.119
And and I think that's a that that's a mistake.
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:57.280
We're all multifaceted, yes.
00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:03.760
Um we're all multidimensional, and you can do lots of different things.
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:16.239
Um, and so many hobbies like woodworking, uh, you can get into relatively inexpensively.
00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:21.679
You know, you don't have to go, you don't have to go out and buy thirty thousand dollars worth of equipment.
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:26.079
Yeah, some of us do, but you don't have to do that.
00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:30.320
I mean, some woodworkers do, I mean, but they don't, you know, you don't have to.
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:31.440
You don't have to.
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:39.440
Um, you can take up carving, and carving something that's relatively easy to learn how to do the mechanics of.
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:49.119
Takes a lifetime to be really, really good at it, but it's it's rewarding, it's fulfilling, and you can make things to give people, yeah.
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:52.320
Which is nice because everybody likes to get stuff that you make.
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:53.199
Absolutely.
00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:54.400
Absolutely.
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:56.719
So, Bob, a couple of quick questions.
00:39:56.800 --> 00:39:58.639
Um, we're almost out of time.
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:00.639
What's usually playing?
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:02.639
Do you listen to music in your workshop?
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:06.480
Do you have music podcasts or do you like to work quietly?
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:11.280
I I can't do podcasts because podcasts require me to pay attention.
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:15.920
And and I can't do that and do what I'm supposed to be doing.
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:24.000
I listen to music and um SiriusXM has a channel called Smoky Soul Town.
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:33.599
Okay, and they play um Motown and Soul Music from the 60s and 70s, yeah, which is pretty much my wheelhouse.
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:34.000
Yeah.
00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:37.440
Um, given where I grew up, given when I grew up.
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:48.480
Um, so when I walk into the shop, I have an apron that I wear that has my marking and measuring tools in it and a few other things.
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:58.480
And I grab my ear hearing protection and I say to Siri, Siri, turn on Smoky Soul Town on Sirius XM Radio.
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:03.519
And when I leave the shop, I say, Alexa, or not Siri, but Alexa.
00:41:03.679 --> 00:41:04.719
Alexa, stop.
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:05.760
And that, you know.
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:06.960
It's over.
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:07.920
That's it.
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:08.960
That's right.
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:14.239
Bob, I have to tell you, this has just been such a fun conversation.
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:27.360
Thank you for for sharing, you know, not just your crap and what you're doing, but also your perspective on this season of life, because we're all looking to make a difference and to have meaning in our lives and to have community.
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:32.880
And and it it seems like woodworking has met that for you.
00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:35.519
So has it?
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:36.320
It has.
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:45.599
It did everything I wanted it to do because you know, I I went into this intentionally, yeah.
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:49.039
Um, or with intentionality, I guess would be a better way to say it.
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:51.199
And I think it has fulfilled that for me.
00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:52.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:58.800
Well, for our audience, is uh I'm gonna close with our silver lining, and I want to thank Bob again.
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:00.480
Bob, you've just been a wonderful guest.
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:02.400
I could talk to you about this more.
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:03.840
Um, and I will.
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:06.719
I will call you and ask you some other things.
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:16.159
But I want to give a small reflection and a practical tip for our audience, and that is try this simple formula for building a life you enjoy.
00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:21.440
One social anchor, one movement anchor, one curiosity anchor.
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:23.920
And Bob, I think you've you've sort of done all of this.
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:31.679
You met the social piece, you got the movement piece with the Motown and with the with the lifting and the sanding and all that stuff.
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:34.880
And one curiosity, remaining curious.
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:38.239
And if you don't want to do woodworking, try something else.
00:42:38.320 --> 00:43:00.159
You might want to try something just as simple as having coffee with a friend, uh uh someone who does a walking group or walking habit or a weekly class, or you can always volunteer for uh to do something meaningful in the community, do a yoga class, woodworking project, whatever fits you, but trying to give yourself something to do that's meaningful to you.
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:06.320
Because uh research has shown me your weeks have rhythm, you feel less adrift, more connected, and more alive.
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:12.400
So, Bob, thank you for sharing not just your craft, but your perspective on this season of life.
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:19.360
It's really a great reminder that retirement can be a time of creativity, growth, and legacy.
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:23.119
So, to our audience and everyone listening, thank you for joining us.
00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:28.719
If this episode sparks something in you, share it with someone who's looking for what comes next.
00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:33.360
And be sure to follow us on Beyond 60 unscripted on social media.
00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:38.159
Subscribe wherever you listen, and if you have a moment, leave us a review.
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:40.639
It helps more people to find our show.
00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:47.760
So until next time, stay curious, keep building, and remember the best years are still ahead.
00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:11.279
I want to welcome you back to Beyond 60 Unscripted.
00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:19.519
And remember, this is the podcast that proves that life after 60 is not about fading out, it is about leaning in.
00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:22.559
I'm your host, Ruth Williams Brinkley.
00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:31.199
And today we are going to be talking about stepping into a new season of life with creativity and purpose.
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This episode is about woodworking.
00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:38.640
That's the topic, but it really is about something larger.
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It's about identity, it's about reinvention, and finding something that is yours when your calendar finally belongs to you.
00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:49.759
I am being joined by my good friend Bob Giff.
00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:54.719
Bob has found a meaningful rhythm in retirement through woodworking.
00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:57.840
Bob, thank you so much for being here.
00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:02.159
Ruth, I really appreciate you having me join you.
00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:04.719
I'm looking forward to our conversation.
00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:09.120
I'd like to start at the beginning of this chapter in your life.
00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:15.359
So just uh by way of reference, Bob and I met, Bob, what did we decide?
00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:17.200
Over 25 years ago, right?
00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:19.040
Yeah, at least.
00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:19.760
Yes.
00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:31.439
So when we work together as health system consultants during operational turnarounds for uh health systems in financial trouble, Bob is an engineer by training.
00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:43.760
However, I want to give Bob the opportunity to briefly add a little texture to his background before we get into what he's doing with woodworking because it's a rich life.
00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:45.680
We're all multi-dimensional.
00:01:45.920 --> 00:02:06.000
So, Bob, share with our audience a little bit about yourself so people know a little bit about you, your family, and the work that you're doing, what are what you did what you did in your big job, what I'm going to call your big job, and and then what you did uh as you transitioned into the into this phase of your life.
00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:10.639
Um I was born and raised in the city of Pittsburgh.
00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:22.240
And my uh father was a laborer, and my mother was a stay-at-home mom because this was, of course, the early 50s when I was born and grew up.
00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:22.560
Yeah.
00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:28.479
The opportunity presented itself for me to go to go to college and go in engineering.
00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:38.319
So I went to the University of Pittsburgh, got a bachelor's degree in industrial engineering, a master's degree in operations research, and started to work on a doctorate.
00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:41.759
Um, only because that was the next rung in the ladder.
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:42.800
That's what you do.
00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:43.759
That's what you did.
00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:44.080
Yeah.
00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:47.759
Ultimately, I went to work as the management engineer in a hospital.
00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:53.520
And that's essentially an industrial engineer working on process and quality improvement.
00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:59.039
I spent 42 years in hospit in and around hospitals.
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Uh, spent 30 years of my career traveling as either an internal consultant for healthcare system or as an independent consultant or a consultant for a consulting company.
00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:15.759
So 30, I spent 30 years on the road, and you know what life is like on the road.
00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:17.280
Yes, yes, I do.
00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:21.199
We spent a lot of those years on the road uh doing work together.
00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:24.080
We did indeed, in in beautiful places.
00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:27.120
Absolutely beautiful, beautiful places.
00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:31.039
And you know, we we did good work.
00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:34.159
We did high, I like to think we did high quality work.
00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:41.840
But one of the uh things about that work is it's I think the word I'm looking for is ephemeral.
00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:55.520
Yeah, and the the results that the work produces are oftentimes separated in time and space from the work that you actually did.
00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:56.319
Yes.
00:03:56.639 --> 00:04:09.120
And and that contributed to my wanting to find something that was more tangible and more real when I retired.
00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:10.080
Yeah.
00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:12.400
And and I want to dig into that.
00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:26.800
And before I do that, though, I want to uh talk about our Beyond 60 Buzz because it actually uh relates to what you just said, um, where we bring a timely story that connects to life after 60.
00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:31.600
So this week I read a local story about a gentleman by the name of Jason Cates.
00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:44.480
He's a former Marine and retired police officer who has found a new sense of purpose by telling stories of veterans, first responders, and others who have dedicated their lives to service.
00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:50.800
Um, after spending a lot of his life helping people through structured roles in the military and law enforcement, Mr.
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Cates is now using storytelling as another form of service.
00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:59.120
He shines a light on people whose impact can sometimes go unnoticed.
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And it really struck me because it reminded me of my journey and to this, to some degree, of your journey, of my journey with this podcast.
00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:11.600
And that reinvention doesn't have to be flashy.
00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:16.399
Sometimes it is simply choosing a mission that gets you out of bed with intention.
00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:21.439
And I love telling these stories about what people are doing after 60s.
00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:25.040
And I've had conversations with you, and I know you love your woodworking.
00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:32.639
So uh this this is uh this is what we do, and I think everybody has to find their own path.
00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:39.040
So um, first of all, retirement is not an ending, it is a pivot, really.
00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:48.319
Uh the uniform comes off, the title changes, the plane tickets go away, but your need for meaning does not disappear.
00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:50.079
You know, that's what first thing.
00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:54.000
Second thing is purpose often shows up through something concrete.
00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:54.959
For for Mr.
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Cates, it was storytelling.
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For you, Bob, it's building uh different outputs, same underlying need, contribution, creativity, and a reason to keep growing and to stay alive and interesting.
00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:26.560
And the third thing, um, the real question is this if you had to choose one project for the next 30 days, uh people need to think about what would give you energy, what would they do, what would it be, and how much satisfaction would it give you?
00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:29.519
So, Bob, when you hear that story of Mr.
00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:40.879
Cates and bringing these stories alive, what comes to mind for you and what do you think people might misunderstand about reinventing themselves after 60?
00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:53.920
I I think part of it is years years ago back in the strategy field, uh, one of the things they talked about was core competency.
00:06:55.439 --> 00:07:03.360
And you know, it's about finding something generically that you're good at and building on that.
00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:18.959
Uh and and it seems to me that with with that storytelling, uh, this gentleman had that as part of his ability to do, even if it wasn't a primary role or a primary function.
00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:26.879
Uh, similarly, in my case, um doing something that adds value.
00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:31.439
Yeah, uh, it was always something that was important to me.
00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:41.120
And doing something that the result of which was the best it could possibly be at the time.
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Um, it didn't mean it was perfect, it doesn't mean it was ideal, but it's trying to contribute and taking pride in the contribution, not boastfully or not egotistically, but being able to look at that and say, that was well done, and I'm glad I was able to do that.
00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:08.480
And would you say too, Bob, it gives you something tangible too?
00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:14.959
You know, like you you mentioned earlier, uh a lot of our work is intangible, it's ephemeral as you described it.
00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:25.600
But does that give you a certain set of satisfaction, a certain sense of satisfaction, looking at something that you can touch, you can feel, that people can see, or am I misinterpreting that?
00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.160
No, I think I think that's spot on.
00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:42.080
Um, that was something that as I thought about what I wanted to do next, having something that was tangible and real was very important to me.
00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:55.600
Um you know, I we dealt a lot in in analyses, we we dealt a lot in the written word, but those things change over time.
00:08:55.840 --> 00:08:56.320
They do.
00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:02.080
Um, yeah, besides, nobody wants to sit and read a 200-page consulting report.
00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:09.679
Um, no, I thought everybody read my reports, our reports page to page, page after page.
00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:12.320
I deluded myself into thinking that.
00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:14.720
Yeah, I th I think that's true.
00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:27.759
Um, I but it's again having that real item that that you can point at and say, Yeah, I made that.
00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:30.639
It's got flaws, it's less than perfect.
00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:35.919
I learned a lot from it, but it's again, it's tangible.
00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:36.639
Yeah.
00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:40.480
Um so, Bob, let's go back to the beginning.
00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:46.320
I want to go, uh uh, how did woodworking become a part of your life after retirement?
00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:55.679
You know, tell us our audience about was it something you always imagined doing, or did it come as a surprise, or just just uh share with us how it became a part of your life?
00:09:56.399 --> 00:10:02.240
I may have been genetically predisposed to doing this.
00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:11.440
Um my my father and his his uncle, with whom he grew up, uh-huh uh both were tinkerers.
00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:17.200
They they both had workshops, they burned both did small things.
00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:29.840
They, you know, they they went through the depression, they went through World War II, um, they lived in an era when you never called the guy, you know, they fixed stuff themselves.
00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:30.240
Uh-huh.
00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:33.120
So that's the kind of environment I grew up in.
00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:49.200
I was either too arrogant or too busy to take advantage of that when I was a teenager or even uh a younger boy because I had games I wanted to play, sports I wanted to be involved in.
00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:51.919
Yeah, but it it incubated.
00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:52.480
Okay.
00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:56.799
Um but uh it's sort of it was sort of in the back of your mind.
00:10:57.360 --> 00:10:58.879
Yeah, I was it was always there.
00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:02.000
And then I bought a home.
00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:09.039
So I had the tapes playing for my father that said, never pay somebody to do what you're capable of doing yourself.
00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:09.440
Yeah.
00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:15.519
So I had some rudimentary DYI tools and learned how to do some of this stuff.
00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:21.919
But it really hit home when I was contemplating retirement.
00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:27.440
And Brenda, my wife Brenda, and I would talk about it, and she made it very clear.
00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:31.759
She said, I have my routine, I have what I do.
00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:44.240
You got to find something to do because I don't want you to become that cliche of the retired guy who follows his wife around the house and then tries to tell her how to do things better.
00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:47.519
So get get alive is what she's basically pretty much.
00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:49.519
Pretty much, pretty much.
00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:56.559
So I I started thinking about those those kinds of things and what what might I experiment with?
00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:03.919
Well, you know, I I've been a lifelong reader, but you can only read so many books.
00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:08.000
Yeah, you can only watch so many movies, you gotta have something to do.
00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:12.639
And as we've talked, you have to have a reason to get out of bed in the morning and get to it.
00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:13.200
Yeah.
00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:21.440
There were, speaking of books, there were three books that really laid some groundwork for me in this.
00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:35.360
One was, I think it's called The Seasons of a Man's Life by Daniel Levinson, written back in the mid to late 70s, where he talks about moving into late adulthood, which is where I'm heading.
00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:47.440
Another one is a book called Mastery by George Leonard, talks about performing at different levels, and you hit a plateau, and you got to be comfortable at that plateau before you move on to the next one.
00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:47.840
Yeah.
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:55.440
And then the last one is William Bridges Managing Transitions, because it's not the change that one.
00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:56.480
Uh yeah, go ahead.
00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:56.799
Yeah.
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:00.480
It's not the change that does it in, it's being in no man's land.
00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:01.440
Exactly.
00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:07.840
But as I as I thought about that, I decided, well, I might like to try my hand at woodworking.
00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:10.080
I love wooden furniture.
00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:18.480
Um, we have a house uh that's filled with mission furniture, stickly furniture, and it's it's all wood.
00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:25.200
Um it's woefully out of fashion with the current motifs and things, but that's what we like.
00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:27.440
So very clean lines.
00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:29.919
Those are are are pieces of furniture.
00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:33.279
I've I've seen a lot of those and have a few pieces myself.
00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:38.960
They're very clean lines, they're not fancy or anything, but they they they fit with anything, quite frankly.
00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:44.000
You know, it's it's not the Queen Ann with the funny feet or any any of those kinds of things.
00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:45.759
So I I've always admired that.
00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:50.399
So I thought, well, I'll get some tools and start working at it.
00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:55.679
And one of the theses of the mastery book is you you find instruction.
00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:08.559
So I was fortunate enough to know get to know a guy whose uh wife was the director or the yeah, the director of home health uh here in town.
00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:16.960
He was a master cabinet maker, he was a master turner, and I relied on him to teach me some of these, some of the basics.
00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:21.279
And uh it it was very, very helpful.
00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:32.320
So that's sort of how I started down this path, and it's been incremental over the last more or less 20 years.
00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:34.399
Wow, wow.
00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:39.360
So, so Bob, let me go back just for a moment, a moment and I'll come back to this.
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:52.320
So, retirement can can be such a huge shift when you're used to traveling every day and and and doing all the things that we know that we did as consultants and even before consulting.
00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:57.600
Um, you go from a very structured career to all this open time.
00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:02.639
So, and you you just mentioned that you have to have something to do.
00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:18.320
Can you take us back to those first few months of retirement and before you found woodworking, first weeks and months, uh before what was it like before you found the woodworking and it became a part of your life and your routine?
00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:24.399
Well, they there's there's the anxiety of what am I gonna do with all this time?
00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:25.039
Yeah.
00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.000
And and how am I gonna fill it up?
00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:43.679
I I was extremely fortunate in that this gentleman that I mentioned, Wayne, um, was at the time managing a local wood retailer.
00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:48.720
Um and it's uh it's a it's a a store called Woodcraft.
00:15:49.039 --> 00:16:00.000
And it's uh it's a uh retailer that sells woodworking supplies, woodworking tools, power tools, yeah, and wood.
00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:09.919
And he he nagged me for a while to come and go to work there, you know, come just a day or two a week.
00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:40.559
Yeah, um, so I I did some of that, and it gave at least a day or two a week some structure, so it was it was good, it gave me that opportunity, and more importantly, it introduced me to a new community and a new language, um, because woodworking has its own language, as does any craft, yeah.
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:43.440
Um, so that that really helped.
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:48.639
Um so I had a a relatively easy transition.
00:16:49.360 --> 00:17:00.559
Uh and and I, geez, I worked there probably for a couple three years, a day or so a week, and taught some woodworking classes ultimately and that kind of things.
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:04.960
And I know this would be a shock to you, Ruth, but uh, I helped out with some organization.
00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:09.039
Oh, I've uh Bob, I'm not even gonna tell.
00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:18.400
I'm gonna I have to share with your audience your your very organized uh tendencies, which I'm I'm quite jealous, quite frankly.
00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:22.160
Um, you have one of the most organized sock drawers I've ever seen.
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:35.839
And I've seen pictures of your workshop, and I know it and I know it is very organized, and I'm sure you wouldn't have been able to work in somebody else's place without organizing it, right?
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.440
Well, I that that is true.
00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:40.640
I have worked in some community workshops.
00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:43.920
Um they're crazy making for me.
00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:48.640
Um and I I contend that I'm organized because I'm lazy.
00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.319
Because I I don't want to spend for stuff.
00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:52.960
That's right.
00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:56.799
I don't want to spend all that time running around looking.
00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:58.480
Where did I put down my pencil?
00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:00.400
Where did I leave the ruler?
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:02.799
You know, but that's that's me.
00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:10.319
Um you know it it makes sense because you can spend a lot of time looking for things if you don't put every what is what did you and I talk about?
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:12.799
Everything has a place, everything should be in its place.
00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:13.200
Yep.
00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:13.759
Ms.
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:20.880
Stern, my second grade teacher, uh had a line, a place for everything, and everything in its place.
00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:22.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:29.359
So it sounds like this hobby has become more than just a way to pass time for you, uh, right?
00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:39.119
Is that it is it is it's um it is it is very much who I am.
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:41.680
I want to pick up on that.
00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:46.400
Uh so how has that shaped this your identity and who you are?
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:47.839
Talk about that a little bit.
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.039
Well, I I was thinking about this earlier.
00:18:51.279 --> 00:19:04.079
Um when you go to dinner parties or cocktail parties or any kind of social event, yeah, I don't know if this is true of women, but it's true of men.
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:06.160
They ask what you do.
00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:10.079
Yeah, they don't ask necessarily who you are, yeah.
00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:12.960
You know, um, they ask what you do.
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:19.759
Um and obviously when you're working, that's an easy question to answer.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:26.960
Yeah, um, but I've seen with so many retired men they don't really have an answer for that.
00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:35.039
Uh because again, they they if they don't play golf or or have an activity, they're they they kind of founder.
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:43.519
Um I I find I think of myself as a woodworker and a furniture maker.
00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:44.160
Okay.
00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:47.119
Um, because they spend a lot of time at it.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:50.720
And you've made some some significant pieces of furniture.
00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:52.720
Uh I I yes, I have.
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:58.480
I I've made um I don't know, over 40 pieces of furniture.
00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:01.759
Um are those cabinets, beds.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:06.960
I know you've made uh chest of chests of drawers or desk.
00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:10.160
Tell tell our audience about some of the pieces you've made.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:20.240
I I I've made um bedroom furniture for I got complete bedroom sets for uh some of our granddaughters, yeah.
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:28.880
Um, which would be beds, nightstands, dressers, uh, blanket chests, mirrors.
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:39.279
Um, I built a a fireplace surround for our son and and daughter-in-law's house.
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:43.839
And coincidentally, they we had a conversation last night.
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:49.519
She wants a console table to go behind her sofa in the living room.
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.160
So I think that'll probably be the next project.
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:54.240
You've done a charcuterie tray.
00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:55.039
I saw that.
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:57.599
That's quite a tray, it's beautiful.
00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:04.319
Yeah, uh, you know, but it's serving trays, serving dishes, um just that kind of stuff.
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:18.799
And it invariably, sometime around October, Brenda finds the picture and says, you know, this will make a really good Christmas present for the neighborhood.
00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:23.599
So then I go out and we make those.
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:25.359
It's amazing.
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:32.559
Bob, what I'm curious, what keeps you coming back to the workshop each day after day?
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:37.440
Um the next perfect piece of furniture.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:39.599
Ah, okay.
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:49.119
I had this naive belief in my career that there was going to be this capstone project.
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:56.319
You know, the project that I could always look at and say, that was the that was the best final thing I ever did.
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.599
And there were really good projects with really great outcomes.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.960
But there was never that final one.
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:13.119
And I again I have that naive belief with with the woodworking that the next one's gonna be be it.
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:20.799
Um probably the most well one of the most complicated things I did was Brenda's desk.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:21.279
Yeah.
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:34.480
Because it's got you know seven drawers and pedestals, and um, but as with any woodworking project, it is it's not perfect.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:35.039
Yeah.
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:40.559
Um, there's a a uh fatal flaw of uh woodworkers.
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:47.359
They'll make something and when they show it to somebody, the first thing they do is point out all the mistakes they made while making it.
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:50.799
It's it's what we do.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:57.839
Um, but it's it's a case where, like surgeons, see one, do one, teach one.
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:03.680
Yeah, you you you make one when it's over, you critique it.
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:06.400
Okay, I did this next time I'll do that.
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:14.960
Yeah, and yeah, and I I actually do that consciously um at the end of every project.
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:26.720
I sit down before I deliver it, and I say, okay, I I know I did this, and okay, okay, so I know next time I make something like this, I'll do A instead of B.
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:27.359
Okay.
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:28.400
Okay.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:35.680
So so what does, you know, I know you're aiming for perfection, and you will always be aiming for a perfection.
00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:46.079
So what does a really good day in the workshop though looks like look like for you if you know you're you're gonna find something that you can improve on the next project?
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:47.920
What makes you feel really good?
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:52.079
Well, the cavalier answer is to walk out with all ten of my fingers.
00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:53.200
Well, there you go.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:54.480
That would be important.
00:23:55.359 --> 00:24:11.920
Um but when when something goes right, uh-huh, um, for example, if you're making you're you're joining two pieces of wood together.
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:12.480
Yeah.
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:23.599
Um, whether it's you're putting legs on aprons for a table, or you're putting dovetail joints together for a box or a drawer.
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:31.920
When they fit and they fit flush and true and square, that's a good day.
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:33.599
That's a good day.
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:44.640
I say, I say it's a good day for myself when I'm trying to put together a flower stand or a plant stand, and all I don't have any pieces left over, and they all fit like they were supposed to.
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:52.960
Well, well, in in woodworking, Ruth, there are there are no mistakes, there are only design uh changes.
00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:54.559
No, talk about that.
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:55.440
What does that mean?
00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:05.680
That means you screwed up and now instead of uh instead of scrapping it, you're gonna change tweak the design a little bit so you can salvage this project.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:07.519
Well, that makes sense.
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:07.920
Yeah.
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:10.480
Isn't that how the creativity really comes out?
00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:16.640
Because I would imagine that sometimes you come out with something that was more beautiful or more creative than you ever thought it would be.
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:17.599
Is that true?
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:19.440
That is sometimes true.
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:20.000
Okay.
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:26.559
Um, I there there are two things that that resonate with this that I learned from Wayne, the guy who's taught me a lot of this.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:26.880
Uh-huh.
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:29.680
One is woodworking is all about problem solving.
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:30.319
Yeah.
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:30.880
Okay.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:39.519
And the second thing is the difference between a good work woodworker and a great woodworker is a great woodworker knows how to fix his mistakes.
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:40.000
Yeah.
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:41.200
Well, there you go.
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:41.680
Yeah.
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:44.160
Um that that's that's important.
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:46.160
And keep it on your 10 fingers.
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:47.759
Yeah, well, yeah.
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:55.440
Uh, you know, um you you lay everything out, you mark everything.
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:57.279
Well, I'll give you an example.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:05.119
I was making a uh a dresser for Courtney and lay it all out.
00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:07.519
Your daughter, your daughter, Courtney, yeah.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:09.039
Our daughter.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:17.119
And uh do the cuts and realize I made this cut wrong.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:18.079
Okay.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:22.160
Okay, what can I do to salvage this piece of cherry?
00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:31.759
Okay, well, instead of having it be the second shelf, it can be the top sub-shelf.
00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:35.519
I can still use it and nobody's gonna see it.
00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:36.880
Okay, that's great.
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:38.160
It works.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:42.960
That that that is that is a good way to think about it.
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:53.440
That you know, you you you have a vision in mind, but at some point you might make a make a mistake or miss cut or something, and you figure out how to solve it.
00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:55.279
That's that's a good way to think about it.
00:26:55.519 --> 00:27:01.279
Well, and and one of the things I'm I'm sure you've heard me say before, it's it's the newbie attitude.
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:05.200
Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be men out of shape.
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:07.519
That's exactly right.
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:09.599
You we used to talk about that a lot.
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:10.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:14.880
So at this stage in your life, Bob, you're retired, you're you're doing this.
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:16.799
What does woodworking give you?
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:18.960
Um, is it relaxation?
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:20.000
Is it a challenge?
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:21.440
Is it a sense of purpose?
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:25.119
Is it all of the above, none of the above, none of the above, or something else?
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:28.960
It's really about the challenge.
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:29.519
Okay.
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:30.559
I I think.
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:32.880
And yes, it's relaxing.
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:37.519
And um I enjoy it.
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:39.599
I look forward to it on a daily basis.
00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:41.279
I dream about it at night.
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:41.920
Really?
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:43.279
Yeah, I do.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:55.519
Um, because I'll I'll get into a project and that's where the thoughts incubate, and I'll wake up in the morning and say, you know, I really could try this instead of that.
00:27:55.759 --> 00:28:01.759
But it's it's about the challenge because every project I try to do, I try to do something new.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:02.480
Yeah.
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:11.279
Um, this a lot of the smaller stuff is not quite production work, but it's making something I made previously.
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:17.599
But with a lot of the furniture, it's okay, you haven't made one of these before.
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:19.680
How do you go about doing it?
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:24.559
And and oftentimes with furniture, it's here's a picture.
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:26.480
I want something like this.
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:27.920
Okay.
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:31.920
So there aren't plans to work from, so I sit down and try to draw some plans.
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.720
And so you draw the plans yourself in many cases.
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:36.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:36.559
Okay.
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:38.720
Um anyway.
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:42.319
Well, what kinds of projects are you doing right now?
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:53.599
What's what's a drawing your uh aside from the the ones that you've been assigned to do or been asked to do, or been commissioned to do, what what what are you drawn to right now?
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:57.920
Um make make anything that you want it to make.
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:15.279
I I I want to begin to introduce maybe a little less rectilinear, pure mission stuff, add more more curves.
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:21.680
So you're pushing yourself in creative ways to sort of push yourself forward and do some different things.
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:23.759
Yeah, try try something different.
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:24.799
Um, yeah.
00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:32.400
There's a excuse me, there's a a sketch by Francisco Goya.
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:34.640
He he's 96 years old.
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:48.000
He did a a charcoal scratch sketch of himself walking with two canes, and in the margin he wrote a unaprendo, which is Spanish for I am still learning.
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:52.480
And that's that's a for me, that's a theme.
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:55.440
That's yeah, I I want to continue to learn.
00:29:55.839 --> 00:30:02.960
And it sounds like you are, and I and I also imagine your life experience plays a role here too, doesn't it, Bob?
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:12.079
Have you noticed changes in your patients or perspective compared to earlier in life when you were like, you know, going so fast all the time?
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:13.359
Uh yes.
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:28.400
Um, I when you're doing a large project like uh the the dining table, you have a four by seven surface that you have to sand.
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:33.839
You gotta learn patience to sand a four by seven surface.
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:41.599
I mean, you can do some of it with a a drum sander, but at the end of the day, you gotta get out there with a hand sander and so that's by hand.
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:43.680
You have to do that by hand, yeah.
00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:51.920
So that um I I have much more patience with process than I ever have previously.
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:59.119
Because if you don't follow the process, you're you're going to end up with a lot more mistakes.
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:01.839
There's an old woodworking adage.
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:05.920
Would woodworking minus patience equals firewood.
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:08.480
I like that.
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:14.480
Yeah, because if you if you don't have the patience, you can really mess up some expensive wood, I can imagine.
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:22.240
So um one of the beautiful things about woodworking is that it often connects us to others.
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:27.759
And you've talked about the pieces you've created uh for your family or loved ones.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:31.920
Um, any of those that you are particularly proud of?
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:40.000
Or are they are any just anything special about any that you remember even either creating it or once it was created?
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:52.960
Um well, maybe the first dining room set for the the the uh that that I made for the Korean daughters, only because it was the first one.
00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:53.519
Yeah.
00:31:53.759 --> 00:32:02.960
Um, but I I've adopted the philosophy: if I make something and give it to somebody and and they want to chop it up and throw it in the fireplace, that's fine.
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:06.000
I I've I've made it, I'm I'm done with it.
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:07.200
It's uh it's over.
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:08.480
Let's move on to the next one.
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:12.960
So is once you give the gift, it's theirs to do with what you want.
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:16.880
Now nobody's done that to my knowledge, but yeah, it's fine.
00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:27.279
Um, you know, one of the things we we talked about um was the challenges that you face in this stage of life.
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:28.160
Yeah.
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:40.880
Um and particularly with the woodworking, one of the things I found is they there are three stages or three components of it for me.
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:46.640
One is adaptation, another one is accommodation, and finally there's acceptance.
00:32:47.359 --> 00:33:00.559
Adaptation is, for example, there was a time when I could throw around a four-foot by eight-foot sheet or three-quarter inch cherry plywood.
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:04.880
You know, I could lift it, I could put it on a table saw, I could break it down.
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:06.480
I can't do that anymore.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:14.319
I need help to pick that up, put it on uh some stands, and then use a track saw to break that down.
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:17.680
So that's an example of adaptation.
00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:31.359
Um and the accommodation side or to me seems to be things like 30 seconds are getting in 30 seconds of an inch are getting increasingly hard to read.
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:41.359
So I'm I'm getting you know rulers that are a little easier to read and up in the the uh power of my bifocals.
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:43.680
It's it's just the stuff you gotta do.
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:44.720
Oh, I'm doing that.
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:45.119
I know.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:47.920
It's just like you got it up here, you cannot, yeah.
00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:50.720
Yeah, and then finally you gotta come to peace with it.
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:51.279
Yeah.
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:53.680
Um, because if you don't, it'll make you crazy.
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:56.079
That's true, that's really true.
00:33:56.559 --> 00:34:04.000
So, what would you say to someone who isn't sure about how they're gonna spend their time in in retirement?
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:07.200
And and couple with that, why is it so important?
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:16.239
Why would you why do you believe it's so important to have a creative outlet at this stage in in life after that we finish the big jobs and go to something else?
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:19.039
I've what I'm gonna call self-actualization.
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:25.039
Um, because well, let me answer the first one second, I guess.
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:33.840
Um I I think it's it's important to have a creative outlet because it's better to wear out than rust out.
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:44.320
And if you're not exercising your mind, if you're not getting up and getting after something, um all of a sudden it's noon and you're still running around in your pajamas.
00:34:44.960 --> 00:35:00.000
You know, I and and I I rarely had seen people calcify, and you know, um and I I didn't want that for myself, and I I don't think it's good for anybody.
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:01.679
Yeah, it's easy to do too.
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:04.800
You can easily find yourself just sort of walking around, yeah.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:22.960
Yeah, you know, um again, given all the years of getting up on Mondays and catching that 545 flight, you know, I was in the habit of being up at 4, 4:30 every morning.
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:28.960
So I I still get up at 5:30, 6 o'clock and gotta have something to do.
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:32.320
You can only do so many New York Times crossword puzzles.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:33.119
That's right.
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:34.559
That's exactly right.
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:35.039
Yeah.
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:41.280
So how what would you say to someone, going back to my original first question?
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:43.599
What would you say to someone who isn't sure what to do?
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:44.800
How they're gonna spend their time.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:52.320
We talked about Tom Schreier, about finding purpose, and it sounds like you've certainly found purpose in what you're doing.
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:57.519
Uh, what would you say to someone who is, you know, still on that journey?
00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:01.679
They've just retired or thinking about retiring, and they're saying, I don't know what to do.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:05.280
Well, try anything, try something.
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:09.760
Um, you know, all all it can be is a false step.
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:10.400
Yeah.
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:16.880
And it's, you know, there's no failure in it.
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:20.480
It's just you found out what wasn't good for you.
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:29.360
Uh it's it's you know, you it would be like if I had tried pottery or something.
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:29.760
Yeah.
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:39.039
Um, you know, I was I was fortunate because I found a niche relatively quickly and found something that I enjoy doing.
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:44.159
Um, and yeah, again, try try something.
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:46.239
Take go go somewhere and take a class.
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:48.159
Um, I mentioned woodcraft.
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:55.840
Most most towns have places where you can go and take any kind of class you want to take.
00:36:56.079 --> 00:37:01.679
They're community college, um woodworking places, go try it.
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:07.840
Um the the um I mentioned earlier about teaching classes at at uh the wood store.
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:27.599
They have probably four or five classes a week, and and there are people there who have never touched a table saw or a hand tool ever, and they go in and they try it, and some take to it, and some say, nice idea, but this isn't for me.
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:31.599
And do you see women, women and men doing what we're working, Bob?
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:33.360
It's interesting you mentioned that.
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:34.639
I was thinking about that earlier.
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:40.559
When I first started working there, the classes were almost exclusively men.
00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:45.199
I'd say now it's probably 40% women.
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:46.079
Really?
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:57.280
Yes, and that's that's aided by the fact that we have, we, they have, um at least three women who are teaching classes.
00:37:57.679 --> 00:37:58.000
Wow.
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:02.239
So you have some women ex female experts there who are also teaching.
00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:03.760
Yes, yes.
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:17.280
That's there there are classes from making kitchen cabinets to doing scroll saw ornaments for Christmas and everything in between.
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:20.000
And we have kids' classes and and that kind of stuff.
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:28.000
So it's um again, going back to your question about I I don't know what I want to do next, try something.
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:35.519
And it doesn't have you know, we we we talked to Leslie Breiksick, who wrote the book on revealing your next seasons.
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.719
It does if even if you like it, it doesn't mean you have to do just that.
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:40.559
You could do something else too.
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:42.159
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:51.440
Um, we I think part of the mythology is that we, you know, we have one thing that we do.
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:52.159
Yeah.
00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:55.119
And and I think that's a that that's a mistake.
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:57.280
We're all multifaceted, yes.
00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:03.760
Um we're all multidimensional, and you can do lots of different things.
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:16.239
Um, and so many hobbies like woodworking, uh, you can get into relatively inexpensively.
00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:21.679
You know, you don't have to go, you don't have to go out and buy thirty thousand dollars worth of equipment.
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:26.079
Yeah, some of us do, but you don't have to do that.
00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:30.320
I mean, some woodworkers do, I mean, but they don't, you know, you don't have to.
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:31.440
You don't have to.
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:39.440
Um, you can take up carving, and carving something that's relatively easy to learn how to do the mechanics of.
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:49.119
Takes a lifetime to be really, really good at it, but it's it's rewarding, it's fulfilling, and you can make things to give people, yeah.
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:52.320
Which is nice because everybody likes to get stuff that you make.
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:53.199
Absolutely.
00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:54.400
Absolutely.
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:56.719
So, Bob, a couple of quick questions.
00:39:56.800 --> 00:39:58.639
Um, we're almost out of time.
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:00.639
What's usually playing?
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:02.639
Do you listen to music in your workshop?
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:06.480
Do you have music podcasts or do you like to work quietly?
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:11.280
I I can't do podcasts because podcasts require me to pay attention.
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:15.920
And and I can't do that and do what I'm supposed to be doing.
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:24.000
I listen to music and um SiriusXM has a channel called Smoky Soul Town.
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:33.599
Okay, and they play um Motown and Soul Music from the 60s and 70s, yeah, which is pretty much my wheelhouse.
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:34.000
Yeah.
00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:37.440
Um, given where I grew up, given when I grew up.
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:48.480
Um, so when I walk into the shop, I have an apron that I wear that has my marking and measuring tools in it and a few other things.
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:58.480
And I grab my ear hearing protection and I say to Siri, Siri, turn on Smoky Soul Town on Sirius XM Radio.
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:03.519
And when I leave the shop, I say, Alexa, or not Siri, but Alexa.
00:41:03.679 --> 00:41:04.719
Alexa, stop.
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:05.760
And that, you know.
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:06.960
It's over.
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:07.920
That's it.
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:08.960
That's right.
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:14.239
Bob, I have to tell you, this has just been such a fun conversation.
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:27.360
Thank you for for sharing, you know, not just your crap and what you're doing, but also your perspective on this season of life, because we're all looking to make a difference and to have meaning in our lives and to have community.
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:32.880
And and it it seems like woodworking has met that for you.
00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:35.519
So has it?
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:36.320
It has.
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:45.599
It did everything I wanted it to do because you know, I I went into this intentionally, yeah.
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:49.039
Um, or with intentionality, I guess would be a better way to say it.
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:51.199
And I think it has fulfilled that for me.
00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:52.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:58.800
Well, for our audience, is uh I'm gonna close with our silver lining, and I want to thank Bob again.
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:00.480
Bob, you've just been a wonderful guest.
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:02.400
I could talk to you about this more.
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:03.840
Um, and I will.
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:06.719
I will call you and ask you some other things.
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:16.159
But I want to give a small reflection and a practical tip for our audience, and that is try this simple formula for building a life you enjoy.
00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:21.440
One social anchor, one movement anchor, one curiosity anchor.
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:23.920
And Bob, I think you've you've sort of done all of this.
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:31.679
You met the social piece, you got the movement piece with the Motown and with the with the lifting and the sanding and all that stuff.
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:34.880
And one curiosity, remaining curious.
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:38.239
And if you don't want to do woodworking, try something else.
00:42:38.320 --> 00:43:00.159
You might want to try something just as simple as having coffee with a friend, uh uh someone who does a walking group or walking habit or a weekly class, or you can always volunteer for uh to do something meaningful in the community, do a yoga class, woodworking project, whatever fits you, but trying to give yourself something to do that's meaningful to you.
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:06.320
Because uh research has shown me your weeks have rhythm, you feel less adrift, more connected, and more alive.
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:12.400
So, Bob, thank you for sharing not just your craft, but your perspective on this season of life.
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:19.360
It's really a great reminder that retirement can be a time of creativity, growth, and legacy.
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:23.119
So, to our audience and everyone listening, thank you for joining us.
00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:28.719
If this episode sparks something in you, share it with someone who's looking for what comes next.
00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:33.360
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00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:38.159
Subscribe wherever you listen, and if you have a moment, leave us a review.
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:40.639
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00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:47.760
So until next time, stay curious, keep building, and remember the best years are still ahead.
