Hellraiser

WEBVTT
00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:16.800
In an article from The Guardian, Clive Barker says, quote, I worked as a hustler in the 1970s because I had no money.
00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:19.839
I met a lot of people you'll know and some you won't.
00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:22.160
Publishers, captains of industry.
00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:27.760
The way they acted, and the way I did, to be honest, was a source of inspiration later.
00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:29.920
Sex is a great leveler.
00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:35.439
It made me want to tell a story about good and evil in which sexuality was the connective tissue.
00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:39.119
I got a good reaction from the SM crowd and still do.
00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:41.200
I was validating a lifestyle.
00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:45.280
It was a celebration of the beauty of these strange secret rituals.
00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:49.039
Hello, Sydney.
00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:57.439
It's your killer host! My name is Parker, your resident horror fanatic.
00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:00.159
I'm Caroline, Scaredy Scream Queen.
00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:02.880
I'm Ian, Scary Movie Skeptic.
00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:04.480
And welcome to.
00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:17.200
What's your favorite scary movie?
00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:25.120
What's your favorite scary movie is a horror film podcast where we're on a journey to find our favorite scary movie one at a time.
00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:29.519
Whether you hate them or love them, join us and discover yours.
00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:35.519
Spoilers ahead, so plan your movie screening every weekend before the episode release.
00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:38.719
Ooh.
00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:42.079
Sexual.
00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:44.079
Guess what?
00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:45.439
Guess what?
00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:45.920
What?
00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:48.319
It's February.
00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:51.120
You know what that means?
00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:53.280
The month of love.
00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:57.120
And we're coming in hot.
00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:02.319
With uh a bit of a a boner.
00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:07.359
Currently we're all sitting here naked after watching Hellraiser.
00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:08.960
We are not naked.
00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:10.400
Only Caroline is.
00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:12.000
Always.
00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:14.000
God damn it, Caroline.
00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:20.400
So Hellraiser came out in the year 1987.
00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:26.319
It was written and directed by Icon of Horror, Clive Barker.
00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:27.360
He is.
00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:32.080
I've made jokes on here before about people being like, you know, he's a Renaissance man.
00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:36.400
He's Clive Barker is truly a Renaissance man.
00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:39.199
He is a prolific playwright.
00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:45.520
He also does visual art, and his paintings are, you know, shown in museums and galleries, blah blah blah.
00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:49.759
And he's also a very famous horror fiction writer.
00:02:50.080 --> 00:03:00.080
The film Hellraiser was based on his novella from 1986, only a year before this movie came out, called The Hellbound Heart.
00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:10.400
And uh he's written many other popular horror works, like The Books of Blood, which includes a story called The Forbidden, which is what Candyman is based on.
00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:22.159
And I know we haven't covered that on the podcast before, but we just might be this year because there's a new one coming out from uh Jordan Peel's uh production company.
00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:37.360
After uh writing plays and fiction and doing his visual art, he actually never planned on directing, but was really disappointed with how some of his writing had been handled in the past with uh in movies.
00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:39.199
So he was like, you know what?
00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:46.319
I'm going to take the reins for my baby, the hellbound heart, and make sure it gets the right treatment.
00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:56.240
After Hellraiser, he wrote and directed Nightbreed in 1990 and executively produced Hellbound Hellraiser 2 from 1988.
00:03:56.479 --> 00:04:02.879
After that, he left the franchise and is openly critical of the installments that followed.
00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:21.759
Clive Barker is also an openly gay man and has been for a very long time, and actually has come up against quite a few obstacles in the um not just movie business, but in the business of fame for being gay for as long as he has been.
00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:35.040
But he has stood fast against those obstacles, and uh we'll just talk a little bit more later about how his work falls into the queer canon of horror.
00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:40.399
We have Ashley Lawrence as Kirsty Cotton.
00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:42.959
Did they ever say the last name in this movie?
00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:46.560
They said Frank Cotton, and I think we just have to infer.
00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:48.399
Also, there's a Kirsty Cotton.
00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:59.360
She returned for Hellbound, Hellraiser 2, Hellraiser 3, Hell on Earth from 1992, and Hellraiser, Hellseeker from 2002.
00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:00.480
Hellseeker.
00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:05.279
They really uh changed up the verbiage on those titles.
00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:07.519
Mmm, and there are many more.
00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:11.759
Um we also have Claire Higgins who plays Julia.
00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:19.759
She also returned for Hellbound Hellraiser too, and is a prolific British TV actor.
00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:29.040
Like in Doctor Who, Downton Abbey, Parades End, Midsummer Murders, a real queen of the British cinema.
00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:30.800
Mmm, that's TV.
00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:33.120
It's not cinema.
00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:34.959
The small cinema.
00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:43.120
Uh we also have Sean Chapman as Frank, Uncle Frank.
00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:58.800
Um he returned for Hellbound Hellraiser 2 and is in Underworld, also called Transmutations from 1985, which was actually one of the pre-Hellraiser Clive Barker films.
00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:00.879
Yeah, so he wasn't happy about that one.
00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:03.439
So super involved here.
00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:10.319
Also, there's no information on why, but Chapman only plays Living Frank.
00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:19.439
The skinless guy, or the monster, um, is actually played by a different person named Oliver Smith.
00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:20.319
Mmm.
00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:27.839
And I actually forgot how much Skinless Frank is in this and Skin Frank is not.
00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:31.680
So Skin Frank like has sex once and pieces.
00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:36.079
Yeah, and it's just that was strange to me because I haven't seen this movie in a minute.
00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:44.079
And um, Sean Chapman has been in a few things, and Oliver Smith really has not been in much more than Hellraiser.
00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:45.759
He is quite handsome though.
00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:47.360
Ooh, he was creepy.
00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:51.519
No, I thought he was handsome for the like the two seconds that he was in this movie.
00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:52.560
Menacing.
00:06:52.959 --> 00:07:04.720
Um, we also have Doug Bradley, who uh was billed in the first film as lead Cenobite, but has since become known as Pinhead.
00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:12.000
Yes, so Pinhead has actually joined the horror canon as one of the icons.
00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:16.959
He's up there with Freddy and Jason and Michael and Leatherface.
00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:22.319
And I feel like Hellraiser is a little bit of an underdog in the horror franchises.
00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:27.759
Not to say this is some like gym we're uncovering, like it's a very popular franchise.
00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:38.160
But I feel like Pinhead does not get as much um as much uh recognition as the others, even though he is very much up there.
00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:39.199
Alright, Mr.
00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:45.839
Bradley also returns as Pinhead in the first eight Hellraiser films.
00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:48.160
There's eight of these things.
00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:49.600
There's ten, baby!
00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:50.959
Oh my god.
00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:52.560
There's ten of these.
00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:54.079
Oh my god.
00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:57.279
Uh, and he was also in Barker's Night Breed.
00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:02.720
Three large extraventi shout-outs to all the centibytes.
00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:03.839
Cenobites.
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:04.480
Cento?
00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:05.600
Cenobites.
00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:06.879
It's Cinnobite.
00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:08.639
Cinnabon.
00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:14.720
Uh we have Nicholas Vince as chatterer.
00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:22.639
Cennobyte, which looks like the uh game where you put the things in your mouth and they pull your lips back and they don't say anything.
00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:24.800
It grosses me out so much.
00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:29.199
And my mom actually bought it for us to play one year at Christmas, and I was like, absolutely not.
00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:29.839
I will not.
00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:31.680
Something about gums, I don't like it.
00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:32.399
Yeah.
00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:41.039
Uh we also have Simon Bamford, who plays butterball, who looks like someone in Men in Black.
00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:42.879
I love the glasses.
00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:43.440
Ugh.
00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:45.840
And Grace Kirby.
00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:47.519
There was a female one.
00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:50.080
Yeah, the one that you said was artistic.
00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:57.039
Talk more about gender later, but she does have some feminine traits, such as, well, breasts.
00:08:57.279 --> 00:09:01.519
But uh, you know, she I feel like her makeup was done a little more delicately.
00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:02.639
She has blue lips.
00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:08.720
I did say I think her angles for the things sticking out of her face were quite artistically done.
00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:16.559
Yes, and actually, I don't remember where I read this, because I actually did quite a bit of research for this episode.
00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:25.120
Um, and I'll link everything in the show notes because I'm just gonna, you know, run through it sometimes and not, you know, tell you where everything's from.
00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:26.960
So check there if you want to know.
00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:37.360
But um, somebody was talking about how her throat opening was very much vagina-esque.
00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:38.720
And I was like, oh, interesting.
00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:39.759
I thought that too.
00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:46.720
Yeah, and then I didn't realize this beforehand, but in the movie, she actually sometimes like runs her finger through it.
00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:49.039
And I was like, oh my god, sexual.
00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:53.279
I was thinking I was so distracted by the metal pieces coming.
00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:56.159
I mean, I noticed the whole, but I didn't notice any of that.
00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:56.639
Yeah.
00:09:56.799 --> 00:09:58.159
She didn't have much screen time.
00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:05.279
Pinhead has become kind of the iconic character from the Hellraiser franchise, and he's in all of them.
00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:11.679
But the other Cinnabites don't get quite the same screen time, and there's a very practical reason for that.
00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:21.840
It's because they all had such crazy makeup and prosthetics that Pinhead was really the only one who could speak and function on camera.
00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:27.600
Everybody else was so restricted by their prosthetics that they had to kind of hold back.
00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:35.279
And even Pinhead had trouble apparently sometimes because the black contact lenses he was wearing, he apparently could not see through.
00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:39.840
So they all were pretty um restrained by that.
00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:44.159
So Pinhead, just by necessity, was the leader.
00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:57.200
Did you know sometimes when they're filming outside scenes, they make the actors wear sunglass contacts that are like shaded so that they can keep their eyes open the whole way.
00:10:57.519 --> 00:10:57.919
That's cool.
00:10:58.000 --> 00:10:59.120
I want some of those.
00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:07.039
The IMDB summary reads An unfaithful wife encounters the zombie of her dead lover.
00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:16.639
The demonic Cenobites are pursuing him after he escaped their sadomasophistic.
00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:19.120
Sadomasochistic.
00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:23.919
After he escaped their sadomasochistic underworld.
00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:26.399
Hey, I'm I got it.
00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:27.360
No, you didn't.
00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:29.279
You said masochistic.
00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:34.399
Sadomasto Sadomasochistic.
00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:36.080
Sadomasochistic.
00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:37.200
Like a masochist?
00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:37.840
Yeah.
00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:39.519
Sadist masochist.
00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:40.720
Sadomasochistic.
00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:42.320
Sadomasochistic.
00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:47.039
After he escaped their sadomasto I fucking can't say that word.
00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:48.080
That's a crazy word.
00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:50.720
Well, we know what y'all aren't doing.
00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:54.720
After he escaped their sadomasochistic underworld.
00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:55.840
That's it.
00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:00.080
The Rotten Tomatoes critic score is 70%.
00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:03.120
The audience score, 73%.
00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:18.080
The critics consensus is quote Elevated by writer-director Clive Barker's fiendishly unique vision, Hellraiser offers a disquietly These words.
00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:29.600
Hellraiser offers a disquieting and sadistically smart alternative to mindless gore.
00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:30.799
Mmm.
00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:33.440
Fun editing that one.
00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:44.480
Okay, so as alluded to earlier, and by alluded I mean we said it, there have been ten Hellraiser films in total.
00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:56.080
Now, I could not get the facts, but it is theorized that this is for dimension to retain the rights to the franchise.
00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:00.000
So every couple of years they've got to churn a new one out.
00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:05.519
That's what I've read in a few places, but I could not find it said for sure.
00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:15.840
Um there have also been comic book spin-offs, and that includes some from Epic, which is a division of Marvel.
00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:19.600
Could you imagine getting a Marvel Hellraiser film?
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:25.519
Well, actually, when you said Hellraiser, I thought to myself Hellboy.
00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:29.200
I mean I I don't think that's a yeah, but I don't think that's Marvel.
00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:29.919
Isn't it?
00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:30.639
Is it?
00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:32.639
That's what well, that's what popped into my head.
00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:34.480
Well, yes, different.
00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:49.279
Uh so actually, over the years, and this is a reason that Dimension has been trying to retain the rights, even though I don't think Dimension is still a thing, because I believe that is a um a branch of the Weinsteins.
00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:50.960
Weinstein?
00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:59.200
So yes, Dimension Films was a Weinstein company, a branch of Miramax, as it turns out.
00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:14.799
And so I'm assuming that it is now defunct because um over the years there have been many proposals to remake Hellraiser, including, and I was noticing, I just you may be thinking, Parker, you're so silly.
00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:23.519
Because I was noticing when I was watching this movie a few similarities to last week's film film Martyrs.
00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:26.080
Gory, a skinless person.
00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:29.919
I did see that religious-esque cult.
00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:31.679
A running scene.
00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:33.519
Yeah, running.
00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:37.360
And here is another interesting crossover.
00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:41.600
So one of these proposals was from Pascal.
00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:43.679
Okay, okay.
00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:51.519
One of these proposals was from Pascal Langier, or however we decided to say that, who was the writer-director of Martyrs.
00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:54.159
But can't you picture that after watching Martyrs?
00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:55.759
Wouldn't he make such a good one?
00:14:56.799 --> 00:14:57.519
Hellraiser?
00:14:57.840 --> 00:14:58.240
Yeah.
00:14:58.399 --> 00:14:58.720
Yeah.
00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:00.399
Yeah, I can picture it.
00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:03.120
Uh, unfortunately, he left the project.
00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:06.240
So there have been other ones, but he was just the one I was most interested in.
00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:17.039
He left the project because apparently he wanted to make a very serious Hellraiser film, and the comp the Weinsteins wanted him to make a teen Hellraiser movie.
00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:19.200
Oh no, that would never work.
00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:21.759
They'd have to take out all this good stuff, the sex.
00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:27.360
So uh these proposals go as far back as 2006.
00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:35.600
Barker, Clive Barker, a few years ago, even said he had written multiple drafts of a script and that it was in the hands of the studio.
00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:43.679
But this was halted perhaps because he had a pretty intense medical scare in 2012 where he went into a coma.
00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:47.440
And uh, yeah, people thought that he was done.
00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:49.919
But luckily, he recovered from that.
00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:53.200
But there has been no further news of his work on that.
00:15:53.360 --> 00:16:04.080
However, most recently, last year, Spyglass Media Group announced towards the end of the year that they would be handling the new remake officially.
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:13.919
And this was announced at the same time that Spyglass said they would be making, hold the applause, Scream 5.
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:14.879
Ah!
00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.960
Not the purpose, but I'm excited about that.
00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:20.960
All that out of the way.
00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:26.879
Now, as I said, uh, this is somewhat of a beloved franchise in the horror community.
00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:30.399
So, you know, there's a lot of information out there.
00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:37.440
We're gonna focus, as I've said in our Shining episode and our Psycho episode, we're gonna focus on mainly how we felt watching it.
00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:44.159
I've actually got a lot of cool stuff to discuss later to dig in a little deeper, but I mean there's no way for us to cover it all.
00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:45.120
So, you know what?
00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:47.679
Hold back your negativity, listeners.
00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:50.559
If we don't say something you want, I'll slap you in the face.
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:51.679
What did you guys think?
00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:52.639
Hellraiser.
00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:53.600
We just watched it.
00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:54.799
What is this rated?
00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:55.840
Uh R.
00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:57.679
Obviously.
00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:03.600
I think it should increase in ratings every time the word daddy is said.
00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:06.720
Come to daddy.
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:18.400
Well, actually, this movie was more explicit, and Clive Barker came against a lot of censorship uh issues and apparently had to take out a lot of sex and some of the gore.
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:20.640
I mean, the sex is not the issue.
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:23.279
The daddy is the issue.
00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:25.680
You don't like little incest?
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:27.279
Okay, a couple things for me.
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:28.480
Daddy.
00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.480
Her mullet was really just not working for me.
00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:34.640
Uh, Julia was a bad bitch.
00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:36.000
Get off her back.
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.480
All those shoulder pads, all that should shadow.
00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:42.799
Reminds me of the 80s.
00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:46.400
Well, her mullet was not doing it for me.
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.480
Hair wasn't doing it for me.
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:55.519
When it first started, I was like, wow, this movie's gonna be really freaking long.
00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:58.400
And then it got going and I was like, okay, we're fine.
00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:01.359
Oh yeah, this movie was a tight hour 30.
00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:07.599
Yeah, but the beginning I thought it was gonna be like dragging me through an hour 30.
00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:08.319
Why?
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:09.599
It was tight.
00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:11.759
Tight like a neck vagina.
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:14.799
And how was the pacing for you?
00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:18.400
I thought the pacing was well paced.
00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:20.079
Mmm.
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:23.359
Yeah, it's like me trying to run the mile.
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:24.720
Perfectly paced.
00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:26.079
Oh, I was like slow.
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:31.200
Um, I really liked it.
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:38.160
Um, minus many things that came out of his mouth.
00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:39.359
Oh, daddy.
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:43.200
Hey, daddy, what else did you think?
00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:52.880
I just think that like there were certain scenes that were really visually appealing, and then otherwise I was just like, like the house itself.
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:56.079
Hey, Daddy, Ian wasn't done.
00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:01.680
And just the um overwhelming amount of times where there's sexual assault or rape happening.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:02.640
Yeah.
00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:06.880
Uh not yeah, uh a lack of consent at parts of this movie.
00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:12.880
Uh also a lot of um metal objects penetrating skin for you.
00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:13.839
Don't like that.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:14.480
Rats.
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:16.079
Rats, indeed.
00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:20.400
So I saw this movie it wasn't that long ago.
00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:25.440
It was a few years ago, but I just like I don't know, maybe I wasn't fully watching.
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:28.559
I remember really disliking it and being like, well, I don't know, stupid.
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:35.119
And this time I have done a little research, and of course, reading about things, you grow a little closer.
00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:42.079
And I don't necessarily think that that's always a good thing, because you shouldn't like a movie more just because you've read like context for it.
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:42.799
You know what I'm saying?
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:50.000
Like it's still the same movie, you should evaluate it on its base, even if it's like, wow, I really like that theme, you know?
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:54.880
But watching it this time, I still think it's pretty silly.
00:19:55.519 --> 00:20:01.599
Like in the best way, like I was kind of like, wow, the like camp here is off the charts.
00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:10.960
Like this movie, in my mind, I after doing the research, I was like, wow, I'm about to watch this movie and it's going to be really serious and like really like intense.
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:13.759
And then I watched it and was like, ugh, this is pretty funny.
00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:20.720
And I like enjoyed it, but I still think there's a lot of really good horror things going on in it too.
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:35.200
So it kind of unintentionally is almost like American Werewolf in London, what I said there, where it's like a really great combination of me laughing and enjoying it that way, but also a few parts that were legitimately tense, I think.
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:36.319
And I liked that a lot.
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:40.240
And the gore I think is real it's not realistic.
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:46.960
It didn't necessarily gross me out, but I think it's really um visually nice and pleasing.
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:55.440
This movie was made on a very low budget, and the way that you see them going around that low budget?
00:20:55.599 --> 00:21:01.119
This is no, but the way that they got around some of that I think is really cool.
00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:10.000
Like, whenever those like chains would pierce someone's skin, how the entire screen was the skin, and you just like close up of the hook going through.
00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:12.880
Like that I think that's really creative and effective.
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:14.400
Like, that was gross.
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:21.200
But it kind of reminds me of like you can buy those things from Amazon that's just like a pad of skin that you can squeeze pimples out of.
00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:23.359
One on Caroline's like.
00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:24.799
That was on Shark Tank.
00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:27.519
Highly recommended gifts every year.
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:29.039
The pimple popper?
00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:29.519
Yeah.
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:31.599
We almost bought my mom one.
00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:32.640
I'm into it.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:36.319
They must have not had enough budget for fog.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:38.400
This movie?
00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:48.559
Yeah, because when she's in that hospital scene and she's running through that hallway away from the monster, all I could see was whatever was pushing the monster.
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:49.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:49.839
Yeah.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:56.000
Uh actually I was listening to an interview with Ashley Lawrence and she was like, Yeah, that did not go as planned.
00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:56.720
Pretty bad.
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:57.599
I didn't even notice.
00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.599
She also said that it was chasing her.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.839
And they were in a very tiny room and she was running in place for most of it.
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:11.039
She said that she would run in place and then she would flip her hair really hard as she would look back, and she'd flip it really hard as she looked away.
00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:12.880
She did spin quite a bit.
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:17.359
All they needed was probably just like double the amount of fog.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:18.880
Oh, I was like of money.
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:21.359
Yeah, more fog would have solved all of that.
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:32.880
Wow, actually, that creature, that strange like scorpion flesh thing, it um has a very large role in the show in the novella.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:34.480
I've read about half of it.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:38.559
Um it's less than 200 pages, and I started it yesterday.
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:40.240
So how's that for research?
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:43.599
Is that the same monster that then appears in the room?
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.079
At the end that comes through the front door.
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:47.680
So I was reading about this.
00:22:47.759 --> 00:23:04.160
There's actually really intense lore and mythology behind this franchise that Clive Barker wrote a few novels and has, you know, obviously all these films have been made and there have been comic books, and it's come to a spot where it has like a pretty intense universe around it, which I think is always really fun.
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:06.000
I like digging into things like that.
00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:09.519
Uh, when I was a kid, I always liked to get Fantasy World.
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:11.200
Um You?
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:12.319
Yeah.
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:12.880
Me?
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:14.000
Fantasy?
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:14.640
I know.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:16.319
Harry Potter heard of it.
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:26.720
Anyway, so that creature is called the Engineer, and it had plays a large role in the novella.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:34.000
But Clive Barker was just really frustrated about the way the monster was turning out and the way it was being operated.
00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:36.400
So it was taken down a lot in the movie.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:42.319
Because in the book, the Cinobites are this like sect, I think it's called Order of the Gash.
00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:54.720
They're like this sect of like priestly SM creatures from hell, uh, and they're ruled by the the engineer or somehow controlled by him.
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:56.079
He's behind it.
00:23:56.319 --> 00:24:07.279
And then there's a creature called the Leviathan that is like the ruler of hell that actually comes up in Hellbell and Hellraiser 2, which is a wild movie.
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:08.720
I can't even start that.
00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:10.799
That movie is insane.
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:14.000
I don't even know what happens in that movie, and I've watched it.
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:22.640
So I think there's a really cool like set of politics in the mythology of Hellraiser.
00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:34.240
And I want to talk more about the Cinnabites and their specifically like religious stuff with them and talk about like sexuality after we kind of run through our favorite parts of the movie.
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:37.279
The movie starts off, Frank he finds the box.
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:42.480
The box is called the Lament Configuration, in case you didn't know.
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:48.720
And this box unleashes the Cinnabites, it calls them, summons them.
00:24:48.960 --> 00:25:01.279
Uh Clive Barker or uh Ashley Lawrence said that Clive Barker's script had a lot of cool information, like that when she looked inside the Lament configuration, there were writhing bodies inside of it.
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:02.000
Cool.
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:11.200
I also read that the guy who made the boxes, his name was when I read this, I laughed out loud.
00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:15.440
Actually, I heard it and then I read it to see how it was spelled, and I laughed out loud.
00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:19.680
Simon Says or something like that.
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:21.680
I was like, excuse me.
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:31.200
So he designed these boxes and I think like spent days making each box, but he had to make so many because they wanted different ones to move in different ways.
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:38.000
Apparently, he made them three by three by three because three is such a religious number.
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:43.839
So there are all sorts of little cool details buried in here uh that I just like.
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:44.799
That's a fun fact.
00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:46.880
I know.
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:55.200
Um, and so that whole opening takes place in the attic of his mom's house.
00:25:55.440 --> 00:26:14.319
Now, flash forward, I don't know how many years, and Larry Cotton and his new wife, not new, but his second wife, Julia, are moving in, and they've got a daughter, Kirsty Cotton, who uh, you know, Kirsty and Julia, they've got kind of a spicy relationship.
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:18.720
Well, as does Larry and Julia, she really is not on good terms with anyone.
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:20.160
Not even Frank.
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:23.039
I want to know about Julia's past life.
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:27.680
I know well, I would assume her and Larry like liked each other at one point.
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:28.480
I don't know.
00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:33.279
He seems like a good guy that wears fun sweaters and just needed a nice lady, you know?
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:35.200
Yeah, and she's not that nice lady.
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:35.759
Exactly.
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:45.359
She gets a little taste of the wild side on their wedding day when Frank shows up and is like, Can I kiss the bride?
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:48.960
And uh they fuck right on top of her wedding dress.
00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:50.000
Ravished.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:50.960
She was into it.
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:52.720
That was a a juicy scene.
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:57.680
Lots of fingers being sucked, knives being run over skin.
00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:03.519
What do you think when she says anything and she he takes her up on that?
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:04.640
What do you think it is?
00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:08.160
Uh, we saw some really vanilla stuff after she said anything.
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:16.480
Well, let me give you a little fun behind the scenes fact that will allude to discussions to be had later.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:27.440
Apparently, this scene originally, and then he was made to take it out by American, you know, raiding organizations, MPAA.
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:35.200
This scene originally featured some hot, hot, hot anal sex that he had to remove.
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:39.039
So just keep that in mind for the future.
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:40.480
Buttholes.
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:41.599
Just getting it.
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:43.359
It just showed anal sex.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:54.880
Yeah, I'm not quite sure the logistics of how a movie for like a theater audience would let you know that they were having anal sex without straight up showing a wiener in a butthole.
00:27:55.279 --> 00:28:00.480
Because if I were to in my mind, the scene that I'm imagining just looks like doggy style.
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:04.480
How do you think they would depict anal sex without showing it?
00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:07.680
I'll tell you, it's nothing that we haven't seen before.
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:10.640
Excuse me?
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:14.000
Meaning it could be misconstrued as other things.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:17.200
So Caroline, when was the last time you saw anal sex?
00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:19.920
No, I'm saying it would be shown as doggy style.
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:23.519
So and we've seen that, so I don't know how they would have spiced it up anything.
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:25.920
Sounds like you're avoiding the corner.
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:29.119
I thought you were saying we've seen anal sex before.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:35.279
No, I mean you were like, um, I'm saying maybe we did see anal sex before.
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:36.480
We just didn't know it.
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:37.039
Oh.
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:40.559
How many movies do you think we've seen anal in?
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:41.519
Zero.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:45.440
You guys just aren't thinking creatively.
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:46.079
Oh.
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:49.279
Something tells me that's not the case.
00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:54.400
Anyway, so that was your fun fact, and it really got out of control.
00:28:55.119 --> 00:29:04.640
So I was actually surprised at how quick I didn't remember them, you know, revealing to us so quickly that she was not a nice person and cheating on her husband on their wedding day.
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:05.920
But that was like first thing.
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:06.960
I'm glad they did.
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:11.039
Yeah, I know, because we would have had to have waited a long time to get into the action.
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:14.480
I would have just been thinking, what a weirdo why you're acting like this.
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:17.920
The moment she kept those photos, I was like, oh.
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:26.880
The moment that she dropped her nice purse on that bedbug ridden mattress in their attic, like, ugh.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:28.880
Something's wrong with this lady.
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:35.680
She thinks that this is just, you know, her husband's dead mom's house, and they have to go live in it.
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:36.720
Ugh, what a drag.
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:57.519
That would have been nice to explain a little bit more because I felt really before before we really got into the meat of the story, I couldn't place like I knew there was a relation between the house and them, but I could not for the life of me figure out what it was.
00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:03.200
Yeah, he says it really quick, and actually the way he said it when I was watching it this time, I was like, What?
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:10.720
Because he's like, he was like, Oh, this was the old woman's house, she's gone now, and I was like, That's how you talk about your dead mom?
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:11.839
Sucks.
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:19.279
But um, you know, they think it's just a regular old grungy house with all these, you know, Jesus statues in it.
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:26.079
Little do they know it just takes one scrape to the back of the hand to start bringing zombies up.
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:30.799
But they both have been in that house before.
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:37.440
That's where she cheated on him prior, or is that in real time?
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:41.599
I think the cheating happened at a different it looked different, but I couldn't tell.
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:43.759
A different location in the past.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:45.279
That was in the past, though.
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:47.200
Oh, I thought it was in the same room.
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:48.160
No, no, no, no.
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:49.839
Because it felt like she flashed back.
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:52.480
It was a flashback, but I couldn't tell where it was.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:53.519
It could have been the house.
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:54.079
I don't know.
00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:55.440
Because that's what threw me off.
00:30:55.599 --> 00:31:01.359
I was like, she's flashbacking to this house, yet she seems like she's never been in the house before.
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:23.359
Well, she was for sure set off by all of Frank's stuff with the memories, but actually I would like it if it was the same house because he says it's been 10 years since I've been to this house, and that would give us a nice timeline of like how long they've been married, things like that, but it it does seem like she has not been to that house before, I have to say.
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:31.519
Um, what's the deal with like the organs forming from underneath the wood?
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:34.559
So that's exactly what I want to talk about next.
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:40.480
Because for all of the silly things in this movie, this scene is freaking cool.
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:40.960
Yeah.
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:46.799
Pretty much is there something living under their instigates this?
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:52.319
Uh no, it was Frank died in there, and we saw the Cinnabites kind of cleaned him up.
00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:54.240
And I'm not sure the logistics.
00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:57.200
I think we have to use a little bit of imagination here.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:05.200
But it's the blood that feeds him and wakes him up, and somehow the Cinnabites do not know that this was gonna happen.
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:09.599
Because he is uh by awakening, escaping the Cinnabites.
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:14.319
Because we have to assume he was taken to hell with the Cinnobites.
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:19.359
So why do you think let's do some speculation here?
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:30.000
Why do you think the blood in this scenario, because it's clearly surprising to the Cenobites that this is a possibility?
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:38.400
Why do you think here versus any other scenario that maybe they've come across in the past?
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:42.799
Why is it now that is that blood is working?
00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:46.000
That is an answer that I cannot give you how ever.
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:48.160
Maybe it's because it's his brother.
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:49.119
It's his own blood.
00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:51.680
Ooh, I like that idea.
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:55.680
But if it if that were the case, then what about all the other well?
00:32:55.839 --> 00:33:07.440
Okay, how many like relatives come to the site where they were dismembered and dragged to hell and also bleed on that same site?
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:09.359
Oh, I could name five.
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:10.720
Just kidding.
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:13.359
That is a good point, and I like the idea.
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:17.839
I think that rules are very loose here.
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:21.599
Holes to the plot are gaping.
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:36.960
But this movie, I think, for how trivial this movie might seem to somebody who's not into horror, I think that this movie is about a lot more than the story.
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:38.160
Does that make sense?
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:40.960
It seems like more of like an art piece to me.
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:47.599
Like, Clive Barker wasn't necessarily thinking like about this setup, he's thinking more about like the universe.
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:49.039
Yeah, for sure.
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:54.319
I mean also one of the other big holes is just the puzzle box.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:58.880
Uh, what about Julie's butthole after all that anal they've been doing?
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:03.680
But like I just I think the puzzle box thing is weird.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:11.199
Yeah, the pu the I do like the puzzle box, but I agree, I I do not have a lot of answers about it.
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:20.320
I feel like that's something that like pops up in these kind of horror slash doom movies, though.
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:39.760
I feel like I've I've seen a lot of movies that some it's like a an ominous box that like gets passed around, or like if it shows up at your doorstep, then like three of your friends die, or like there's something about like that theme of a box.
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:48.639
Well, what I do like about the box, and this will further well this thing, the what I'm about to say will further compound your that a box is a horror trope thing.
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:52.239
In the book, it's actually a music box, which is everywhere.
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:55.119
Horror movies are riddled with music boxes.
00:34:55.440 --> 00:35:06.320
But what I like about the Lament configuration in this is that it's people have to choose to call the Cinebites, and it's not easy to call them.
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:11.920
You have to solve the box, you have to want to call the Cinnabites to call the Cinnabites.
00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:17.039
And so Or you're just curious and you want to solve it, you don't know what's on the other side.
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:18.719
Like Kirsty, right?
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:19.199
Yeah.
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:25.440
Do you think that Kirsty ended up getting pleasure from the Cinnabites?
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:31.920
Well, in the book, like I said, I have not finished it, and a lot of the plot of the book is very different.
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:33.440
Kirsty's not even like a star.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:40.239
She may have because in the book, solving the box is pleasure.
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:49.840
And he's calling the Cinnabites because he's like, I have seen and felt all of the worldly pr pleasures, and it's not enough.
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:55.199
He even says in the flashback to Julia in the movie, I wrote it down, he says it's never enough.
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:57.039
And she's like, Please stay with me.
00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:02.800
And he's just like, No, like because he doesn't love Julia, he just loves pleasure.
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:17.039
And so he finds he seeks out the box because he's heard tales that it is it will give him what he's looking for, and that's why you know the guy at the beginning he says, What's your pleasure?
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:20.639
and he's like, You know what it is, you know, come to daddy.
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:37.199
And uh in the book, he solves it, and as soon as he does, all of his senses are amplified so much that he can't handle it, and he even we don't see this in the movie, but you know, I wouldn't have minded.
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:44.480
He even, you know, starts touching himself and has an orgasm, and after he does, it doesn't stop.
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:49.760
And he's like, Wait, I just signed up for a little kick here.
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:51.280
What's going on?
00:36:51.679 --> 00:37:08.639
And so that kind of leads me to the first theme of the movie that I that is well, it's it's pretty, you know, not a lot of this is text, not subtext, but the uh, you know, pain versus pleasure and how those bleed together.
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:24.320
So the Cinobites are from a hell dimension in Hellraiser, and they're they're described as beings that no longer can tell the difference between pleasure and pain.
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:40.559
And what I like is that they're not monsters, they're not villains, they're just you know, you know, beings that judge and kind of dole out what they've been asked to give.
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:44.559
And the thing is that some people don't understand what they're asking for.
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:45.599
You know what I mean?
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:55.280
I feel like that's kind of a trope of movies too, is that you're on this journey to seek out something, but you don't exactly know what you're getting yourself into.
00:37:55.440 --> 00:38:00.639
And so Frank gets himself in a little bit over his head by calling the Cinnabites to him.
00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:12.800
And um, Clive Barker's discussed the process of designing the Cinnabites, and he was talking about how in the 80s he would have his crew, him and his crew would go to SM clubs.
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:15.440
That just sounds like a germ field to me.
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:21.519
Well, he said this was the first time he'd ever seen people piercing their skin for pleasure.
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:31.920
And he would have his, you know, team go and study what people were wearing and study the culture, and that's how they designed the cinnabites, was actually by going and seeking that out.
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:48.559
And he's talked many times about kind of the dichotomy of revulsion and fascination, how it's gross and the cinnabites look revolting, but there's also something that you want to look at them for.
00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:49.519
You know what I'm saying?
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:59.599
Like they're somehow like still beautiful, might be a genera generous word, but like you were saying, like there's something artistic about them.
00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:07.360
There's something that you like and desire, even if that's not sexual, like you know, some of the people in this movie.
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:14.400
So I think the cinnabites are really interesting, complicated characters because they're not the villains of this movie.
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:16.719
In fact, it seems like they are.
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:22.880
The poster of this movie is Pinhead holding the box, but actually the villain is Frank and Julia.
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:26.880
There's a lot of different story going on here.
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:29.039
Yeah, the cinnabites are just doing their job.
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:29.840
Exactly.
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:33.840
And speaking of Frank and Julia, they start murdering people.
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:44.239
You know, Julia goes out, she picks up a hot piece at the bar, brings them home, and then sledged the head takes them down.
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:49.039
In what world is it that easy to pick people up?
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:53.199
I mean, we've never been a woman, so Caroline.
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:54.800
It's pretty hard.
00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:04.480
Now, I will say, something that is appealing to me about a reboot is, you know, the advent of dating apps.
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:05.920
That could be interesting.
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:12.159
I mean, it's in any way that I could imagine it is silly because I don't have the creative brain for writing movies.
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:19.519
I mean, this movie could be one scene laying on our couch making a fake Tinder profile.
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:20.559
You up?
00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:21.360
Yeah.
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:23.840
Come in, shoot him.
00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:25.280
That's it.
00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:27.599
Oh, guns, that's beneath them.
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:30.320
There's artistry to hitting people with a hammer.
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:32.000
You know what pissed me off?
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:32.960
Ooh, what?
00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:37.840
Is that Frank isn't doing his own killing.
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:39.840
I mean at the beginning.
00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:41.599
He's got exposed nerves.
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:45.599
I know, but like come on.
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:46.639
I don't know.
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:50.239
I think that might be a hard I mean, he is very muscly.
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:52.639
Here's what I don't understand.
00:40:53.039 --> 00:41:07.519
Julia can pick up all these men so easily, and yet she decides to murder like four people to have the one that is crawling around in her upstairs attic killing mice.
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:16.800
But that's the kind of bigger thing here is that she has tasted something from Frank and she wants it.
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:18.719
She's obsessed with it, you know?
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:19.920
Girlfriend.
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:23.519
I'm sure any of those men that she brought home could have given her something similar.
00:41:23.840 --> 00:41:24.400
I don't know about that.
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:25.599
Those men.
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:27.039
Okay, maybe not them.
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:30.960
But like, you know, well, we know Caroline's standards.
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:34.159
Get pretty close.
00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:36.159
There's another Frank somewhere out in the world.
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:38.079
You don't have to murder someone.
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:41.440
Think about this a little more romantically, Caroline.
00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:43.360
Is there another Ian out there?
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:47.440
Damn.
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:51.280
Let's just turn into couples counseling.
00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:53.519
Ian, how do you feel about that?
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:55.920
You're a snowflake, dear.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:56.880
Ugh.
00:41:57.280 --> 00:41:57.760
Yeah.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:11.119
Speaking of morals, a very blurred line, not to bring that song into it, but a blurred line here between what's moral and amoral.
00:42:11.360 --> 00:42:13.599
You know what's not moral no matter what, though.
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:14.639
Murdering.
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:16.320
Debatable.
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:17.599
Oh yeah, I guess.
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:22.079
I mean why don't you, you know, see yourself out?
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:24.800
I don't want to sleep in the same apartment.
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:36.320
Um well, in self-defense, is murder still considered murder if it's in self-defense of a said murderer trying to murder?
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:38.159
Is it still a murder?
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:41.440
Am I a murderer trying to defend myself against you?
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:46.559
If someone murdered someone and then comes to try to murder you and you kill them, is that murder?
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:48.239
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:55.920
So Frank says about the lament configuration, and it's an experience beyond the limits.
00:42:56.079 --> 00:42:58.639
Pain and pleasure indivisible.
00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:01.440
That sets the scene of the movie.
00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:04.079
And I like.
00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:09.039
So Larry's like, hey, Kirsi, my daughter.
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:10.719
And she's like, yeah, daddy.
00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:14.639
And he's like, Will you go talk to my wife?
00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:17.679
She's clearly not happy with me.
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:25.039
Now, I have a feeling Larry probably knows Julia and Kirsi don't exactly get along, so this seems like a stupid plan for moment one.
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:29.519
But she catches her in the act of bringing home a strange man.
00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:36.960
She hears a scream and is like, Oh, I better go check that out, and stumbles upon Frank.
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:50.480
Before she does, however, I like, I've kind of missed there is like kind of interesting religious things planted throughout here, such as when they move into the house, they mention that it's a Sunday, they're throwing out all the Jesuses.
00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:59.760
And then a lot of uh I I like that a lot of times when they exclaim in a place where other expletives might be used.
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:03.039
It's always like a Jesus Christ or something like that.
00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:05.760
And the man that's being murdered here says, Christ help me.
00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:07.920
And let me let you in on a little secret.
00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:09.360
He sure does not.
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:14.400
Because he gets his uh Frank digs his fingers into his neck.
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:17.840
And I have to point out, it's a little hot here.
00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:22.480
Those two men rubbed up against that wall, fingers penetrating.
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:24.639
Been there.
00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:27.039
Thanks, Parker.
00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:31.679
But the jig is up because Kirsty catches him and then ooh.
00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:33.039
What's that?
00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:33.920
Heat?
00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:35.360
Incest.
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:39.440
Frank is like, hey baby, you're looking pretty these days.
00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:40.719
Come to daddy.
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:42.239
Hey, baby.
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:43.679
Indeed.
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:46.320
And Kirsty's like, uh no, thank you.
00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:48.400
And she gets away, but ugh.
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:53.360
Don't you just hate it when your body betrays you and you just faint in the middle of the street?
00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:55.679
Happens to me all the time.
00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:59.599
She wakes up in the hospital, flowers blooming.
00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:00.960
How erotic.
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:04.400
Turns out the nurse is just watching that on TV.
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:06.480
I'm more concerned for the nurse.
00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:08.719
Yeah, she's just watching the flowers on TV.
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:11.599
Planet Earth did not exist in the background.
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:19.199
The doctor, who is very combative with Kirsty, gives her the box and is like, hey, maybe this will jog your memory on what happens.
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:20.559
What's in that box?
00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:22.320
Well, what's in the box?
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:23.119
Sex.
00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:28.000
She solves it, and that door opens up where she finds the engineer.
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:28.719
She runs away.
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:29.519
We've already discussed.
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:30.880
So dramatic.
00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:34.239
But the cinnabites show up and they say a few interesting things.
00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:38.559
I like he says, Oh, no tears, please.
00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:41.280
It's a waste of good suffering.
00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:50.079
And this is where we kind of see, you know, Kirsty, an innocent, has called them, and they're open to a little barter.
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:52.159
They're like, Uh, I don't know.
00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:53.679
They don't guarantee anything.
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:54.639
He says, maybe.
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:56.239
Yeah, which is a no.
00:45:56.400 --> 00:46:02.400
He says, maybe, bring us Frank, or we'll tear your soul apart.
00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:05.519
You know, easy trade.
00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:06.800
Worth a shot, though.
00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:07.519
Worth a shot.
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:09.840
I mean, not a lot of other options.
00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:14.079
What follows this climax of the movie.
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:20.239
You know, father, Larry, killed and skinned, spoiler, by Frank.
00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:24.639
Frank, you know, masquerading as Larry.
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:38.000
And I do have to say, Ian, you said something about this during the movie, where Kirsty's talking to Frank and she's just not noticing that he has like flaps of skin hanging off him and blood all over him.
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:46.960
While I think that the effect is cool, why would you put that in a movie and just be like, hey, just ignore that while you're talking to him?
00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:48.639
You know, you gotta have a little reaction.
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:50.800
Like, oh dad, why is there skin hanging off you?
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:52.880
And he, oh, you know, big fight.
00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:53.440
Yeah.
00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:54.000
I don't know.
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:57.599
That was the most ridiculous moment ever.
00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:08.159
Well, it's supposed to be a pretty big revelation when Larry, air quotes Larry, says to Kirsty, Come to Daddy.
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:10.239
And she's like, What?
00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:12.639
And then she claws his skin off.
00:47:13.519 --> 00:47:16.719
And then runs upstairs, good maggot corpse here.
00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:17.920
Scared us.
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:19.199
Creepy.
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:22.000
And then, you know, yada yada yada.
00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:24.639
Kirsty's like, What have you done to my dad?
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:30.800
And Frank with a killer burn says he was dead long before we ever touched him.
00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:32.719
Nice.
00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:34.239
You need some ice for that.
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:35.440
Damn.
00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:37.599
And then the Cinnabite show up.
00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:40.559
Jane's flying, hooking into Frank.
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:43.679
His face skin really pulled apart here.
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:52.320
He licks his lips and says, What?
00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:02.800
And then gets blown apart by all these chains.
00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:04.960
And Kirsty's like, wow, shit.
00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:07.519
And then she's trying, she's like, okay, well, we're good now.
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:09.760
But then the Cinebites go, no, no, no.
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.079
Famous, famous line here.
00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:19.679
So they're not going to let him get away.
00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:22.480
Good thing she's got that box to zap them all with.
00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:24.079
Boyfriend shows up.
00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:25.599
Engineer shows up.
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:28.400
Suffice to say, they get away.
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:36.400
And then this dingus thinks she can just throw a metal box into a fire and it's going to go away.
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:38.559
Hasn't she ever seen Aladdin?
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:39.280
Clearly, no.
00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:40.400
When did Aladdin come out?
00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:41.840
Do you think he's out in 87?
00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:42.480
No.
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:44.639
Yeah, probably not.
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:45.760
Illuminati.
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:51.360
Now, Caroline, you'd said something earlier with the homeless man when they were in the pets where you said Jesus.
00:48:51.840 --> 00:49:06.239
Now, I don't think he was Jesus, but he does turn into some sort of winged creature and fly away with that box to give it back to the salesman from the beginning who asks a new man, What's your pleasure?
00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:07.920
So you're on to something.
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:14.719
Tell me, if you got that look from that guy walking to unknown subway stop.
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:16.400
Oh, the homeless one?
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:19.519
Wouldn't that be cause for true unknown?
00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:20.960
It happens three times a day to me.
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:22.000
Yeah, it does happen a lot.
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:24.559
She gets away pr she w I mean doesn't get away.
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:26.159
You just walk quicker.
00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:36.880
Anyway, the other thing that I think um is a bummer about this movie is that this was originally made as like a very British horror film.
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:46.239
And um when the studio releasing got its eyes on it, they said, no, we want this to be a little more American.
00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:50.239
Can you reshoot some things, make it a little more ambiguous to the location?
00:49:50.480 --> 00:50:02.079
And then they had a lot of the actors, a lot of the extras who had already said their lines, they dubbed lines over them with American accents.
00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:08.960
I could tell from the beginning the mattress moving guy, lips were not sinking to the words.
00:50:09.199 --> 00:50:11.920
Yeah, there's some pretty big bummers in there.
00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:14.000
Anyway, but let's not dwell.
00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:16.559
We've already talked about pain versus pleasure.
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:20.159
Pain is pleasure, pleasure is pain, you know.
00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:21.840
We've talked about that.
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:24.159
We've talked about love and obsession.
00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:25.760
That's a big theme here.
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:28.800
A lot of, you know, inverses and dichotomies here.
00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:31.199
Uh, we've talked about morality and sin.
00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:41.119
And I also like within that that there's the idea that pushing yourself means either taking control or losing yourself.
00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:47.280
The Cinnabites seem very in charge of what's going on around them, which includes the sexuality.
00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:55.119
But Frank, I think why he's so unsuccessful and why Julia's so unsuccessful is that they've lost control to their desire.
00:50:55.519 --> 00:50:59.840
I think that's an interesting inverse in this movie as well.
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:04.320
Uh, in the same interview, Ashley Lawrence said uh about this franchise.
00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:07.760
She said about Clive Barker, good is always victorious.
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:09.280
People like me will win.
00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:11.920
All you need to do is tell the truth.
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:13.519
That's nice.
00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:15.440
I don't think that's true.
00:51:17.039 --> 00:51:25.840
Let's see, we've talked about uh inversions of religious imagery, except we have not talked about a little bit more of the lore here.
00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:28.559
So in this movie, I think it's really interesting.
00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:34.320
Clive Barker's discussed how the Cinebites live in another dimension and it's a hell dimension.
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:39.039
However, it's not the hell that is the Christian heaven versus hell.
00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:42.079
In this movie, they don't really talk about a heaven, you know?
00:51:42.400 --> 00:51:48.079
And this isn't the hell that scares us into being good, like we discussed in our martyrs episode.
00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:54.719
This is a hell where, you know, the cinnabites have some sort of rule.
00:51:54.880 --> 00:51:59.360
They're, I mean, a Cinnabite is not a word made up by this movie.
00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:03.599
That is a uh like religious monastic figure.
00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:07.039
And it was used by this movie because they're wearing, you know, robes.
00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:16.400
These robes just have to be happen to be leather, and there's some sort of, you know, religious priest of sexuality here.
00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:24.320
So I like this idea that hell isn't necessarily about punishment.
00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:36.159
Hell is a place in this movie where it's a place where pain is eternal, but pain isn't necessarily pain.
00:52:36.320 --> 00:52:39.119
You know, like I said, it's also pleasure.
00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:49.760
There's something where people choose to go to this hell to experience things that are beyond the limits of human uh is pleasure.
00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:50.559
Sensation.
00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:51.599
Hell.
00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:53.199
Maybe.
00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:57.519
You know, these are the kind of cogs that this movie gets turning.
00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:12.559
So I like this idea of a modern image of hell, a hell that's different than this, you know, ancient, ancient, you know, Christian thing that is so saturated in, you know, today's world.
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:15.280
It's it's butting up against that.
00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:27.760
The other religious idea, well, this isn't necessarily religious, but kind of an old-fashioned idea here, is that this movie is going to show us the disintegration of the family unit.
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:46.880
We have not only a man and a daughter whose wife slash mother is dead, but he has a second wife who's, you know, not not very good, a bit of an evil stepmother, and uh, you know, is stepping out on him with his brother and a mother that he clearly doesn't love.
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:52.719
So this movie is going hard against common thoughts of like traditional culture.
00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:55.119
From moment one, I like that a lot.
00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:57.599
Here's what I've been really wanting to get to.
00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:00.800
All that time to eat the goods.
00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:06.960
You may have heard before, this might come as a shock to you guys, but I myself am a gay man.
00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:07.840
What?
00:54:09.519 --> 00:54:10.639
Get out of here.
00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:11.199
I know.
00:54:11.280 --> 00:54:12.559
I didn't Oh, he's out.
00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:16.320
Would have never guessed, but it is true.
00:54:16.639 --> 00:54:23.039
And you may have heard me say earlier, Clive Barker, also a gay man.
00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:23.679
What?
00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:25.599
Slide into my DMs.
00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:31.199
You know, obviously, this movie is very preoccupied with sex and sexuality and identity.
00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:38.800
So Hellraiser has a huge, huge place in horror scholarship, and it's had many, many studies done about it.
00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:43.039
This movie in particular, like people are really digging into Hellraiser.
00:54:43.599 --> 00:54:52.159
Early on, when it was uh new, a few works were written pinning it as homophobic and conservative, actually.
00:54:52.320 --> 00:55:05.360
They were saying that it conflates queerness with the monstrous and is a reactionary piece to the AIDS crisis, where gayness was feared and seen as sexual deviancy, just like SNM.
00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:20.320
So, I mean, this was put out there, released in the late 80s when, you know, the AIDS crisis was really ramping up, and everybody was like, oh, that's you know, a disease only gay men can get, so we're all scared of them.
00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:31.920
So these early articles were saying that's what Clive Barker was saying, you know, even though he was an openly gay man at this point, they were like, you yourself are saying, like, be scared of us.
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:33.760
We have this disease.
00:55:34.239 --> 00:55:45.440
Uh, I personally do not agree with that, and I think that by having SNM have such a strong presence in this movie, you know, I think that's already hint one that they should have been latching on to.
00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:50.639
So the Cinnabites represent an elevated consciousness.
00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:57.199
They're people, not people, they're beings that have surpassed the human realm of, you know, sensation and thought.
00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:02.159
And they're in tune with pleasures void of earthly judgment.
00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:03.599
You know, they're just them.
00:56:03.840 --> 00:56:15.840
So all of the themes that we've been discussing uh so far, like love and obsession and uh religion, you know, they're above, they're well, they're not above, they're separate from that.
00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:25.920
And also kind of similar to what Caroline was saying earlier, where in the credits one of the cinnabites is billed is the female cinnabite, and she was like, What?
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:46.480
They're also very genderless, and they're, you know, even the ones that are clearly male are wearing skirts and they have, you know, like butterball, like that could be a woman, we don't know, but they're separate from human binaries and they're separate from labels.
00:56:46.800 --> 00:57:00.079
And so where these pieces have gone wrong is I think, yes, these can be seen as queer figures, but I don't think that they're supposed to be monstrous.
00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:26.480
In an article I was reading from off-screen that I thought was really interesting, it says of one of these articles, it says, Binshoff states that uh part of Barker's defense against the criticism that his films are reactionary is to point out that he is, quote, rewriting the genre to focus on its potential to dramatize and evoke social, psychological, and physical change.
00:57:26.719 --> 00:57:40.159
There are elements of metamorphosis in much of Barker's work, and the author director asserts that in his early works, the issues of transformation, of paradox, and gender ambiguity are a consistent presence.
00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:45.840
All three of these elements are present in the manner of dress worn by the Cinnabites in Hellraiser.
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:54.320
And I relate this to what the Cinnabite, what Pinhead says to Kirsty when he first appears.
00:57:54.800 --> 00:57:55.679
Who are you?
00:57:56.800 --> 00:58:04.320
Explorers in the further regions of experience, demons to some, angels to others.
00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:16.239
And if that doesn't wrap up gay life in the 80s, you know, he's saying that some people don't understand us, but to some people we're all they have.
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:18.000
Interesting.
00:58:18.480 --> 00:58:33.760
And now, I think that that, with all the scholarship that's been done that I can find, is pretty much agreed upon in canon, that the cinnabites represent some sort of other that is misunderstood but isn't evil.
00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:39.760
Because the other characters in this movie are viewing everything through a heterosexual lens.
00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:50.800
Like if we are sympathizing with the characters, we don't understand the cinnabites, you know, looking at them through the culturally ingrained vision that they have.
00:58:51.039 --> 00:58:51.679
Does that make sense?
00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:53.199
Perfect.
00:58:53.440 --> 00:58:57.760
Sometimes I get ranting and I can't even, you know, talk.
00:58:58.159 --> 00:59:09.599
This article that I was reading proposed a viewing of this movie that I think is really interesting, but should not be taken as canon or fact.
00:59:09.760 --> 00:59:12.719
I just want to point it out because obviously.
00:59:13.119 --> 00:59:21.760
So the author of this article was saying that it's there's a complicated message around what's going on with Frank in this movie.
00:59:21.920 --> 00:59:23.360
He is the villain.
00:59:23.599 --> 00:59:31.039
And one might think that Julia must seduce Min to be free and to find her liberation with Frank.
00:59:31.199 --> 00:59:38.559
However, this author suggested that Frank is asking for and has a thirst for male flesh.
00:59:39.039 --> 00:59:42.400
And when I read that, I was like, huh, listening?
00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:46.239
Even though I do not want to be conflated with Frank necessarily.
00:59:46.480 --> 00:59:47.760
He did always make her leave.
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:48.559
Yeah.
00:59:48.880 --> 01:00:00.480
So the article or the author, I didn't write down a name, so you'll just have to look in the show notes, suggests that the Cinnabites are a product of their dimension, and Frank is a product of ours.
01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:13.599
That he's seen as a monster by his heteronormative family, and though he tries to straighten himself out with Julia, ultimately leaves his born family for a chosen family, the Cinnobites.
01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:33.199
He's the one raising hell for the people around him.
01:00:33.519 --> 01:00:38.159
And that's viewed through this 80s societal cultural lens.
01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:44.639
If we are to view him as a queer character, which I'm not saying I should, but bear with me.
01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:51.519
What I do like about that, however, because I do think this is complicated because Frank is clearly the villain of the movie.
01:00:52.480 --> 01:01:16.880
What I like about this theory is that you know, Frank, if he's queer, is on this journey of coming out, but has not been accepted and has to resort to what you know the characters in the movie are viewing as monstrous, but that's only as a product of not being understood and not being supported.
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:30.800
I don't think that's necessarily the case, but you could make an argument for that that I think is really interesting, and as a queer person myself, you know, I like I like being like making all the excuses I can to see myself in a movie.
01:01:31.599 --> 01:01:34.320
So that was my thought there.
01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:45.760
Uh another article on Gaily Dreadful, the art the author, the author wrote about how the film spoke powerfully to her about polyamory and her own bisexuality.
01:01:45.920 --> 01:01:56.800
She was saying that she had never seen herself in a movie because she had seen straight movies and queer movies, but this movie she felt pre- representation in.
01:01:56.960 --> 01:02:16.639
So suffice to say, I think this film is really rich in inclusion and both pushes the envelope, especially when you think about this being in the 80s, you know, all the slashers we've not that this is a slasher, but all of the it kind of is, all the slashers we've seen from the 80s, you know, feature like boobs and teens.
01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:23.280
But this is a very erotic sexuality that's in this movie that's not just like, uh, titties.
01:02:23.760 --> 01:02:31.119
Um, so it was pushing the envelope, but I also like that it's subtle enough that if you just want to watch it as a horror movie, you can.
01:02:32.079 --> 01:02:33.840
And that's always a good thing.
01:02:34.079 --> 01:02:37.920
I have another quote from Clive Barker, and we can wrap her up.
01:02:38.159 --> 01:02:41.920
He says, quote, horror fiction tends to be reactionary.
01:02:42.079 --> 01:02:45.039
It's usually about a return to the status quo.
01:02:45.280 --> 01:02:51.440
The monster in the outside the monster is the outsider who must be banished from the sanctum.
01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:59.599
But over and over again, I've created monsters who come from the outside and who call out to somebody to join them in the sanctum.
01:02:59.840 --> 01:03:08.800
And then, of course, you know, if you were gonna go with what that guy said or what that person said in the article about Frank being queer, anal sex.
01:03:10.159 --> 01:03:11.039
Hell yeah.
01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:14.320
You know, I bring everything full circle in here.
01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:16.400
Alright.
01:03:16.880 --> 01:03:17.679
Hellraiser.
01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:20.000
Raised hell.
01:03:21.039 --> 01:03:22.960
A lot of murder.
01:03:23.519 --> 01:03:27.679
What would you say is the most memorable?
01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:30.480
Uh, Julia's final penetration.
01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:33.280
Yeah, Frank was like, you know what?
01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:34.559
You got me, my me.
01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:37.519
Sad to see you go, but not really.
01:03:38.159 --> 01:03:39.440
I'd also have to agree.
01:03:39.679 --> 01:03:41.280
Julia's final penetration.
01:03:41.519 --> 01:03:51.440
Wow, I'm gonna definitely go with final Frank death exploding into bits via chain pulling.
01:03:51.840 --> 01:03:53.440
The penetrations have it.
01:03:53.679 --> 01:03:58.079
I know, I I'm outnumbered on a scary scale.
01:03:58.639 --> 01:04:00.000
One to five.
01:04:00.400 --> 01:04:03.199
How would you rate Hellraiser?
01:04:03.599 --> 01:04:05.039
I'm gonna give it a three.
01:04:05.679 --> 01:04:06.320
Wow.
01:04:07.360 --> 01:04:09.280
Going to give it a two.
01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:11.920
I'm gonna give it a two as well.
01:04:12.400 --> 01:04:14.000
Now, Hellraiser.
01:04:14.719 --> 01:04:18.400
Smash or slash.
01:04:19.039 --> 01:04:19.679
Slash.
01:04:20.719 --> 01:04:22.800
We'll back that up quickly.
01:04:23.280 --> 01:04:26.159
It just wasn't my movie.
01:04:26.719 --> 01:04:27.920
Wasn't her bag.
01:04:28.320 --> 01:04:37.360
I'd have to say it's definitely on the line for me, but I would have to round to a smash.
01:04:37.679 --> 01:04:40.559
Wow, how much of a sna smash snatch?
01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:42.000
How much of a smash?
01:04:42.159 --> 01:04:44.880
A nice, you know, SM chains.
01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:49.360
No, just uh run-of-the-mill vanilla smash.
01:04:49.599 --> 01:04:49.920
Wow.
01:04:50.000 --> 01:04:54.559
Well, I'm gonna give Hellraiser a pretty good anal sex smash.
01:04:55.440 --> 01:04:58.239
You know, this could be a game changer here.
01:04:58.559 --> 01:05:02.880
What would you say is your favorite scary movie?
01:05:04.719 --> 01:05:05.920
The Shining.
01:05:07.119 --> 01:05:08.960
Rare exports.
01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:12.960
And I'm gonna stick with an American werewolf in London.
01:05:13.599 --> 01:05:16.719
Now, look at that diversity in movies.
01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:17.440
I know.
01:05:17.599 --> 01:05:21.920
You won't be peer pressuring me, no sorry, Bob.
01:05:22.719 --> 01:05:29.920
Now, next week on this uh podcast, we're hitting the theaters again.
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:32.320
It's been a minute since I feel like we've been in the theaters.
01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:32.880
That's a lie.
01:05:32.960 --> 01:05:33.840
We saw the grudge.
01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:37.039
Good thing I forgot about that, and it's gonna stay that way.
01:05:37.280 --> 01:05:42.159
Uh, but we're headed to the theaters, hopefully to see something much better.
01:05:42.400 --> 01:05:44.079
Gretel and Hansel.
01:05:44.480 --> 01:05:45.360
Titular.
01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:48.559
Well, we'll see.
01:05:48.719 --> 01:05:50.800
I actually have kind of high hopes for this one.
01:05:50.960 --> 01:05:52.159
Anyone else?
01:05:52.800 --> 01:05:57.679
Yeah, it looks like it could be uh high hopes for the grudge, too.
01:05:58.159 --> 01:05:58.960
Could be a wiener.
01:05:59.119 --> 01:05:59.760
This one looks very
01:06:01.280 --> 01:06:04.480
Visually standout.
01:06:06.159 --> 01:06:06.559
Yeah.
01:06:07.679 --> 01:06:08.880
A movie about children.
01:06:09.039 --> 01:06:10.079
I don't know about that.
01:06:10.559 --> 01:06:12.239
And get out of here with that.
01:06:12.639 --> 01:06:14.079
Come to Daddy.
01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:18.639
So yeah, we're seeing that.
01:06:18.719 --> 01:06:20.320
Come back next week for it.
01:06:20.880 --> 01:06:31.119
Until then, you can head over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a rating and a review, and we'll give you a scream on next week's pod.
01:06:31.360 --> 01:06:34.159
We're gonna break the mold a little bit here.
01:06:34.480 --> 01:06:38.960
We had such a nice comment on one of our Facebook posts.
01:06:39.360 --> 01:06:52.320
And while you should definitely still go leave a review on Apple Podcasts instead of, you know, a Facebook comment, I would still love to hear about it because it was just so sweet.
01:06:52.639 --> 01:06:58.480
Um Patrick left us a nice little comment that said, Hey, Parker, Caroline, and Ian.
01:06:58.639 --> 01:07:03.199
A few days ago I discovered this amazing what's your favorite scream movie podcast.
01:07:03.360 --> 01:07:04.880
Keep up the good work.
01:07:05.119 --> 01:07:07.360
Greetings from Holland, the Netherlands.
01:07:07.679 --> 01:07:08.159
Dope.
01:07:08.400 --> 01:07:10.159
I am your number one fan.
01:07:10.559 --> 01:07:11.840
Wow, but that's a review.
01:07:12.800 --> 01:07:15.360
Uh that is a comment that somebody made on Facebook.
01:07:15.840 --> 01:07:16.400
That's so cool.
01:07:16.960 --> 01:07:18.159
How nice about it.
01:07:18.559 --> 01:07:20.000
You know what's kind of cool about that?
01:07:20.239 --> 01:07:20.880
What?
01:07:21.119 --> 01:07:23.679
Is people sorry, what what was his name?
01:07:23.920 --> 01:07:24.320
Patrick.
01:07:24.719 --> 01:07:29.679
People like Patrick are actually starting to contribute to our Patreon.
01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:31.280
Which is like really exciting.
01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:34.079
You know, you know what the most exciting part about that is?
01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:34.800
What?
01:07:35.039 --> 01:07:42.719
Is the fact that you just went out and bought name brand Duracell Batteries.
01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:44.079
Ten bucks, baby.
01:07:44.239 --> 01:07:50.320
And I know that sounds crazy, but we were able to actually buy the name brand batteries because of the frickin' Patreon supporters.
01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:56.639
And that means the like battery levels have not gone down at all on a recorder.
01:07:56.800 --> 01:07:58.800
And I think it has to do something with name brands.
01:07:58.960 --> 01:07:59.440
So thank you.
01:07:59.920 --> 01:08:02.400
Amazon basic ones go to before.
01:08:02.719 --> 01:08:04.239
Yeah, Amazon, your basic.
01:08:04.800 --> 01:08:08.559
So yeah, thank you to everyone that supports us.
01:08:09.679 --> 01:08:12.400
It allows us to get name brand batteries.
01:08:12.559 --> 01:08:18.159
And if you too want to support us on Patreon, you can get so much cool stuff.
01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:23.920
You can get a newsletter every month, which you may think, newsletter, I can just look at your calendar on the website.
01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:29.760
Well, one, no, because we send out the newsletter before we update our calendar, so you know, jokes on you.
01:08:30.079 --> 01:08:37.119
Two, we have some pretty cool discussions and good little thoughts that we slap into that newsletter.
01:08:37.279 --> 01:08:44.720
If you want to hear about what our favorite things are from every month, what we're looking forward to, our February newsletter, spoiler patrons, cover your ears.
01:08:44.880 --> 01:08:48.000
Might have our thoughts on the Oscar nominations.
01:08:48.560 --> 01:08:49.199
What?
01:08:49.760 --> 01:08:52.319
And um you could get that.
01:08:52.479 --> 01:08:56.479
Plus bonus episodes where we're seeing even more new theatrical releases.
01:08:56.640 --> 01:09:00.079
We have an episode on the turning coming out soon on our Patreon.
01:09:00.319 --> 01:09:04.880
And you could get that if you head over to uh patreon.com slash scary moviepod.
01:09:05.199 --> 01:09:06.800
Newsletters are a dollar a month.
01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:09.760
Bonus episodes and newsletter, just five dollars a month.
01:09:10.000 --> 01:09:15.439
And I'm just saying, if we ever have that scary movie theater someday, Patreon supporters.
01:09:15.760 --> 01:09:17.199
If free.
01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:19.439
Maybe.
01:09:19.600 --> 01:09:19.760
Yeah.
01:09:20.239 --> 01:09:23.600
And our prices will go up all we'll have free popcorn.
01:09:27.039 --> 01:09:27.199
Water.
01:09:27.520 --> 01:09:29.600
The little VIP experience.
01:09:30.079 --> 01:09:31.039
Alright.
01:09:31.520 --> 01:09:41.199
My name just so happens to be Parker Heron, and you can find me on Instagram, Twitter, uh, letterboxed, and the slasher app at Parker Delray.
01:09:41.680 --> 01:09:42.800
My name is Caroline.
01:09:42.880 --> 01:09:46.720
You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Caro Manifesto.
01:09:47.439 --> 01:09:50.399
And my name is Ian Hoyt.
01:09:50.800 --> 01:09:53.760
You can find me on the New York subway sometime.
01:09:54.720 --> 01:10:00.319
But if you're a homeless man that's about to transform into a winged beast, still find him.
01:10:03.680 --> 01:10:06.479
We'll tear your soul apart.