Cutting Deep into Horror | Hellraiser (1987): Pinhead, Desire & Body Horror

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Welcome to your heck.
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Okay.
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Oh, wow.
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That's a lot of blood. And can we address the.
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Blood to some, hemoglobin to others.
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Well, yeah, that's kind of how, like, synonyms work.
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But.
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Come along now. We must attach chains to your eyelids.
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So that you may file your W-7-4 tax form.
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Oh, God, no!
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A form only invented in heck.
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Ah, no! Not heck.
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No.
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Taxes are the worst.
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They're pretty bad. Yeah. Oh, God.
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This podcast is about why horror scares us. What deep, dark, secret,
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scary cinema shines a light on. The discussions are frank
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and involve conversations about abuse, trauma, and mental health. There
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are also spoilers, so keep that in mind too. Now,
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sharpen your machetes and straight razors, because this is Cutting
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Deep into Horror.
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Hello, my spookies, and welcome back to Cutting Deep into Horror.
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I am, of course, your host, Enrique Couto, here with
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my co-host, Rachel Rodolphe. Rachel, how are you?
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I'm doing good.
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Good. Well, spooky season is already rolling along, so we
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wanted to do a little, I guess, a little appeal
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to the classics.
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Yeah.
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For October. Yeah. Because... I don't know. It's a classic.
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That's one of those tricky things, though. People were arguing
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that 80s movies were classics when I was a late teenager,
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which would have not even been... They were barely 20
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years old?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, they were really young. Because this film we're covering tonight, Hellraiser,
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from 1987, so it's one year younger than me.
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It's the same age as me.
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That means it's almost 40 years old. Okay.
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I'm going to go just lay down in the dirt now.
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No, why? Because your back hurting? That's the only thing
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that gets it to stop. But this is obviously considered
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a classic in the realm of horror and the kind
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of franchise horror era that started in the late 70s
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for the most part with Halloween. Halloween spawned sequels, then
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Friday the 13th spawned sequels, then Nightmare on Elm Street
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spawned sequels, Child's Place, spawned sequels. Hellraiser obviously spawned many sequels,
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even Critters, Wishmaster, Candyman. It got to a point where
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that was the goal.
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Yeah.
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If you made a horror film was that it would
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be a franchise and that you would have lots and
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lots of movies. And while Hellraiser didn't quite have the
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success of Nightmare on Elm Street or Friday the 13th
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or Halloween as far as it's I believe it was
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after part four, Hellraiser went straight to video.
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Oh, that's pretty early on.
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Yeah. Child's Play went straight to video. I want to
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say part five was the last one that was in
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theaters or might've been part four. Nightmare on Elm Street
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never went straight to video. Friday never went to straight
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to home video. Halloween never went straight to home video.
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Critters went pretty much immediately straight to home video. I
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think after part two.
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Yeah.
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Candyman was straight to video parts two and three, I believe.
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Two might've been in theaters briefly. Wishmaster, I think the
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first one was the only one that was in theaters.
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So anyway, but Hellraiser, so Hellraiser has that kind of
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delineation of being a major horror franchise that ended up
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going direct to video and becoming really low budget really quickly. Yeah.
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And having some later sequels that are maligned for making
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no sense and in the series or whatever you want
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to call it. And also having a couple of really
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questionable later sequels and then a quasi remake from a
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few years back.
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Yeah.
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But we're talking as always, when we talk about any
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horror film, that is the start of a franchise. We
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are only talking about the first film as a self-contained thing.
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Yeah.
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For the most part.
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Yeah.
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Anything that's referencing the later films is just trivia. And yeah.
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Yeah, because if we were to try to discuss the
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Hellraiser franchise in totality, we'd be here a while.
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Eh, maybe not.
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Well, I guess it does depend.
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I think that there's a lot to like about some
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of those later Hellraiser sequels.
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Oh, yeah.
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But there are some fair criticisms. Like, there's one of
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them that a lot of people felt like it was
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just a detective script.
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I remember that one, and I actually kind of liked
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that one.
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I did, too. But a lot of people, like, I
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feel like they just crammed Pinhead into it. I found
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no evidence that's literally what happened, but I understand why
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people would want to think that. Yeah. And there are
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a lot of examples in not really as much horror,
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but in movies in general and movie series where that happens.
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Die Hard 2 was based on a different book than
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Die Hard, the first Die Hard film. They adapted a
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different novel and changed the character to John McClane. Die
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Hard 3 was a spec script that had been floating
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around Hollywood for a decade and That they took and
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then made it John McClane. Oh, cool. So it does happen.
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Yeah.
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But yeah, there's a lot to get into with Hellraiser.
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Of course, it's Clive Barker's first film as a director,
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although he did not direct many films.
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Yeah, because it's this and well, did he direct Candyman?
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No. No. No.
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And Candyman was very loosely. It was a very small film.
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story that Candyman was based on the original Candyman we
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went over it he was Irish yeah it didn't take
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place in Chicago it was like very different it's still
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an interesting short story the movie I think is excellent
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we've talked about it on the show but but with
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Hellraiser I think Barker maybe maybe only got back into
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the director's chair maybe two more times for some reason
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his Wikipedia is not giving me a list of movies
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he directed that's how few I guess he Directed that
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they feel like they don't need to list them. He
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lists his books like crazy because he wrote so many books.
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Because in the 90s especially, Clive Barker was like the
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guy you read to show you were way cooler than
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Stephen King. Because Stephen King was like, that's what normies
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are afraid of. I'm into Clive Barker. I'm into torture
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and weird psychosexual stuff.
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Yeah. The really dark shit.
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Yeah.
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Oh, wow. Okay. So he directed a few more than
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I realized, although these two I think are shorts. Hellraiser first,
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and then Nightbreed in 1990, which became legendary for having
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the producers mess with it. And then eventually the actual
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director's cut was slowly being circulated. And then maybe five
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years ago, the cabal cut, as they called it, finally
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got put out into the world. I think Nightbreed's all right.
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It's not a great horror film, not a bad horror film.
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And then his final feature as director, I don't, forgot,
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I just watched this one for the first time three
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weeks ago, is Lord of Illusions, which I know you
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haven't seen for sure, but I liked it fine. But yeah,
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he did really make a huge splash as a director.
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And there were claims that he barely directed Hellraiser. Oh, really?
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I don't think that they're really that accurate. It's kind
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of when people try to claim that Tobey Hooper didn't
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direct Poltergeist. I'm like, why are you being so negative
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about Well, people try this. So the claim on Poltergeist
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is that Toby Hooper was there and directing, but that
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Steven Spielberg actually directed it. And there are all these
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claims that aren't really true that Spielberg couldn't direct Poltergeist
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because of some contractual thing. So he hired Toby Hooper,
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but then he was like influencing him or whatever. And
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his influence is all over the movie, but I don't,
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that I've never heard anybody who worked on it say
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that Toby wasn't day in and day out working on it.
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But to give you context, there are about 40 films that,
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maybe a little less, that are based on novels, novellas,
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or short stories by Clive Barker. So he's definitely had
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a lot of pieces produced.
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Yeah.
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And supposedly he wanted to do Hellraiser himself because he
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was unhappy with the way others had turned out.
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Yeah, that's what I've heard. The story I've heard.
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Where'd you hear that?
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Internet.
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Well, then it's true.
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It has to be true.
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That's the way it works. Yeah. But yeah, so, and
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Hellraiser's always been seen as Pinhead- Being the, depending on
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who you'd ask, especially back when I was a kid,
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it being Freddy, Jason and Pinhead or Freddy, Jason and Leatherface.
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Yeah.
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Pinhead was always in there, even though in reality, the
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movies were a lot smaller scale and a lot less
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ubiquitous in some ways. But Pinhead was ubiquitous.
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Yeah.
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Which is extra funny because he's barely in the film,
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the first film.
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Yeah.
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And I don't know if you knew this, but for those,
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first of all, for those who don't, who've never seen
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Hellraiser before. that's bizarre, but you need to get a,
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get ahead and watching that. I believe it's on to be,
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and I'm just, I'm double checking now, but it's pretty
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readily available to watch.
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Yeah.
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It's free to watch on to be Pluto TV, Amazon
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prime video with your subscription plex that you can rent
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it anywhere you rent your movie so it's readily available
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yeah but originally the wife character was meant to be
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the recurring character if there were.
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Sequels really what was her name julia.
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Julia yeah originally she was meant to be the reoccurring
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evil That's.
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Really interesting because especially on this watch through, I noticed
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how she and Frank are truly the villains, the bad guys.
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The Cenobites obviously are not good guys.
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Well, it depends on how you look at it.
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Well, yeah.
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Demons to some, angels to others.
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Well, their whole thing in the first film is that
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you can only get them by summoning them in a
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very specific way.
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Yeah.
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So why would you claim you're innocent? If you were
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trying to solve the lament or whatever.
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The lament configuration.
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Yeah.
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But Peter Atkins, a screenwriter, recalled plans to build a
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continuing series, but it was based entirely around Julia. But
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Pinhead's popularity completely changed that mindset. And Claire Higgins, who
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played Julia, she was in the second film, but she
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didn't want to be a recurring horror villain.
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Okay.
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So it kind of pushed it away. Okay.
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Yeah.
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Very interesting. As we were watching it, I just noticed,
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especially for the first, I'd say, two acts, the film
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is almost more of a family drama.
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I think it's a marriage drama. That's two sides of
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the same spiky coin. But I think it's a marriage
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drama because it's about their marriage falling apart and his
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wife being obsessed with Frank. while Frank is obsessed with pleasure,
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for lack of a better term. The story of Hellraiser
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is basically, I'm not going to mince words because I've
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always found Hellraiser funnier if you describe it really plainly.
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It's about a guy who is so into dirty, kinky, weird,
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blasphemous sex that he decides that the next way to
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really get his rocks off is to summon demons to
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to tear him apart basically yeah so he gets torn
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apart ends up stuck in an attic in his old
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childhood home meanwhile his brother who is larry who is
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not a bad dude at all he's about as square
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as it gets yeah and his wife julia who is
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secretly twisted they're moving into this house Larry accidentally bleeds upstairs.
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The blood actually kind of summons Frank back, suggesting that
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somehow Frank wasn't actually killed by the Cenobites we briefly
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see at the beginning who have come to tear his
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soul apart. And now Frank is trying to get more
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and more blood to become more powerful. And while all
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this is happening, Larry's daughter is stuck in the middle.
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Yeah.
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That's really what the movie is. I mean, the Cenobites
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are a major point, but they're more of a sticking point,
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not a story point.
250
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Exactly.
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The Cenobites are the, the, the supernatural element, but they
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leave Frank to be Frank for most of the film.
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And Frank is terrifying. He's a skinless monster who has
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no sense of right or wrong. Yeah. Only of what
255
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he wants and what amuses him.
256
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Yeah.
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He's pretty much, I would say, like the ultimate definition
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of a hedonist.
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I was just going to say that. Frank is what
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happens when you take hedonism to the ultimate extreme. And
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they do a really good job of showing you, you know,
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within the first five minutes of the film, what that is,
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what that entails. And it's not great.
264
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No, it's not. Depends on whose side you're on. But yeah,
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that's pretty much the rundown. Because the other thing is
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a lot of people forget much like other film series,
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franchise startups, that this is not like the other Hellraiser movies.
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And it's not even just horror franchises. The first Rambo movie,
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people forget what First Blood is actually like. It's totally
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different than you're thinking if you're remembering a kind of
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amalgamation of all the other Rambo movies as one. So
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what was, well, my first time watching Hellraiser was on cable. Oh, fun.
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I was probably six. I'm serious. It was the first
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horror film. And I can't claim 100% that it was
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the first Hellraiser. I can only say that was when
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I was exposed to Hellraiser. But it was one of
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the first horror films to give me a nightmare. I
278
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had a nightmare about Pinhead when I was very young.
279
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Oh, yeah. Pinhead is terrifying as a character.
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If you're afraid of that kind of thing. If you're
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afraid of British people. Well, yeah. But that was my
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first time basically seeing it. What about you?
283
00:14:52.980 --> 00:14:56.279
Definitely the first time was watching it with you. This
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would have been 10 years ago, but I'd always been
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curious about the Hellraiser franchise just because the entire premise
286
00:15:07.590 --> 00:15:13.299
sounded so different from other horror franchises that I would
287
00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:16.049
hear about. And so I was kind of like really
288
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intrigued by that. When you gave me the chance to like,
289
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.340
you were like, well, let's pick out some horror movies
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to watch. And when I finally said, let's watch Hellraiser.
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00:15:23.980 --> 00:15:27.419
And you were like, hell yeah. And it was everything
292
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that I expected and but also defied expectations because I'd
293
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obviously heard through pop culture more about like the sequels
294
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and just the general, like you said, the amalgamation of
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Of the whole franchise rather than just what this one
296
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movie was.
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00:15:46.750 --> 00:15:49.419
And the themes are pretty consistent, even though the films
298
00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:52.899
are super different from each other. The themes of sin
299
00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:58.879
and vengeance and decadence and death and sex and all
300
00:15:58.899 --> 00:16:01.669
that's in almost all of them to some extent, especially
301
00:16:01.690 --> 00:16:06.250
the early ones. And yeah, definitely. I think it carved
302
00:16:06.309 --> 00:16:11.200
its way into horror very fairly. by being an interesting,
303
00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:17.220
albeit a strange, stab at horror at the time. It
304
00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:21.700
was 1987. The slasher movie was still king, although it
305
00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:25.639
was dying off a bit. And then you get Pinhead
306
00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.759
and Hellraiser, something I don't think people were really expecting
307
00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:32.610
so much. But when we get back, we'll talk more
308
00:16:32.690 --> 00:16:37.289
about the gruesome specifics of Hellraiser after this.
309
00:16:45.549 --> 00:16:49.830
So the first time we watched the film, and even
310
00:16:49.870 --> 00:16:53.000
watching it again this time with you, the thing that
311
00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:59.639
really caught me is how quickly the whole lore is
312
00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:06.160
established without any long exposition or anything. I just, pretty quickly,
313
00:17:06.380 --> 00:17:09.640
we see Frank getting the box, we see him solving
314
00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.420
the box, and then within five minutes he's torn apart.
315
00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:16.619
So we understand, maybe not the fine details, but we
316
00:17:16.660 --> 00:17:19.880
kind of understand the rules of this world pretty early on.
317
00:17:20.339 --> 00:17:20.539
Yeah.
318
00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:25.069
He's clearly traveling the world looking for something.
319
00:17:25.509 --> 00:17:25.730
Yeah.
320
00:17:25.750 --> 00:17:30.849
Meets up with this odd, nondescript Asian gentleman who sells
321
00:17:30.890 --> 00:17:34.329
him the box and seems very happy to sell it
322
00:17:34.369 --> 00:17:34.650
to him.
323
00:17:34.910 --> 00:17:35.150
Yeah.
324
00:17:35.589 --> 00:17:38.740
And then he's in a room alone, surrounded by candles,
325
00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:42.180
trying to solve this puzzle box, which I always thought
326
00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:45.619
was a nice touch. Especially considering I believe the 80s
327
00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:47.359
was like the height of the Rubik's Cube.
328
00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:48.319
Yeah.
329
00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:50.859
So I think that's funny because it's a little it's
330
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:51.279
a box.
331
00:17:51.500 --> 00:17:51.819
It is.
332
00:17:52.059 --> 00:17:52.220
Yeah.
333
00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:56.259
Just a little just a thing. And I've especially this
334
00:17:56.299 --> 00:17:58.700
time watching it through again, but I've always noticed like
335
00:17:58.779 --> 00:18:01.539
how to solve the box. You kind of sit there
336
00:18:01.579 --> 00:18:04.980
and just caress it and touch it and everything. And
337
00:18:05.089 --> 00:18:08.509
it looks really sexual. The whole movie is sexual. But
338
00:18:09.009 --> 00:18:12.710
even solving the box, something as simple as solving a
339
00:18:12.750 --> 00:18:16.049
puzzle box. It's got this sensuousness to it.
340
00:18:16.069 --> 00:18:17.839
I think that's just you just putting that on there
341
00:18:17.859 --> 00:18:20.920
because you're weird. No, you're not wrong. I always got
342
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.119
the sense that the real secret of solving the puzzle
343
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.440
box was that it comes from almost letting it co-opt
344
00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:27.099
you a little bit.
345
00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:27.819
Yeah.
346
00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:28.440
Yeah.
347
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:31.910
Like you let it tell you how to touch it almost.
348
00:18:32.509 --> 00:18:32.750
Yeah.
349
00:18:32.789 --> 00:18:35.049
It's like you have to listen to this darker voice
350
00:18:35.589 --> 00:18:38.029
somewhere that would tell you how to open it. Of course,
351
00:18:38.549 --> 00:18:43.400
as we progress, Watch the movie more later on. It
352
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.839
gets opened by somebody who doesn't realize what it is,
353
00:18:46.819 --> 00:18:49.369
which could have just been a fluke. Although then if
354
00:18:49.410 --> 00:18:53.029
you pay, if you count the later sequels, it's that
355
00:18:53.069 --> 00:18:56.589
there was some kind of predestined thing with, oh gosh,
356
00:18:56.609 --> 00:18:57.089
what's her name?
357
00:18:57.849 --> 00:18:58.670
Kirstie?
358
00:18:58.869 --> 00:18:59.269
Kirstie.
359
00:19:00.089 --> 00:19:05.029
But yeah, I don't know.
360
00:19:05.049 --> 00:19:05.170
No, no.
361
00:19:06.049 --> 00:19:08.509
Like you said at the beginning, we're just taking this
362
00:19:08.589 --> 00:19:12.220
movie as itself. If you were to take the whole lore,
363
00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:15.900
then yeah, there is like this predestination, like fate sort
364
00:19:15.940 --> 00:19:20.309
of thing going on. But when you take this film
365
00:19:20.450 --> 00:19:25.029
for what it is, it kind of seems like the
366
00:19:25.170 --> 00:19:28.450
only amount of fate would be that it would be
367
00:19:28.470 --> 00:19:33.039
your fate to suffer the consequences if you go trying
368
00:19:33.099 --> 00:19:39.049
to solve the box. There isn't any predestination of necessarily
369
00:19:39.170 --> 00:19:42.000
who opens the box. It's just once it's in your hands,
370
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:45.420
you succumb to touching it and then opening it.
371
00:19:46.069 --> 00:19:49.769
What the Cenobites even say, you opened it, we came. Yeah.
372
00:19:49.789 --> 00:19:52.339
That's like the entirety of their argument, of their reason.
373
00:19:52.710 --> 00:19:53.210
Exactly.
374
00:19:53.579 --> 00:19:55.710
And their gig is to torment.
375
00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:56.460
Yeah.
376
00:19:56.539 --> 00:20:00.339
To cause suffering of the flesh. The famous line was
377
00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:02.480
demons to some angels to others.
378
00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:03.019
Yeah.
379
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:07.220
And I like that because I feel like that is ambiguous.
380
00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:07.880
Mm-hmm.
381
00:20:08.589 --> 00:20:12.069
They don't really spell out what that means or entails,
382
00:20:13.049 --> 00:20:16.490
whether it means that there are people who want to
383
00:20:16.529 --> 00:20:23.029
be murdered horribly or tormented horribly. Yeah. Or if it means,
384
00:20:23.049 --> 00:20:27.410
I guess my point is, is it that punishment is freedom?
385
00:20:28.430 --> 00:20:31.190
Is it that being punished is good? If you're bad,
386
00:20:31.549 --> 00:20:33.589
if you're evil, if you're wicked, that it's good to
387
00:20:33.630 --> 00:20:37.529
be punished, therefore angels to some. Okay. Or is it
388
00:20:37.710 --> 00:20:40.839
what you get, angels to some, I don't know who
389
00:20:40.859 --> 00:20:44.019
that would be, demons to everyone who encounters them.
390
00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:44.420
Yeah.
391
00:20:44.500 --> 00:20:47.079
Because there is this whole argument, this whole concept that
392
00:20:47.099 --> 00:20:49.599
the Cenobites are morally neutral.
393
00:20:50.339 --> 00:20:50.619
Yeah.
394
00:20:51.019 --> 00:20:52.140
I don't know how you feel about that.
395
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:57.670
I think that I could see it more than other people.
396
00:20:58.589 --> 00:21:04.970
characters in horror franchises especially with this first movie but
397
00:21:05.470 --> 00:21:07.809
they do kind of turn heel a bit but then
398
00:21:07.849 --> 00:21:11.289
again they never really actually make any promises their only
399
00:21:11.369 --> 00:21:14.950
promise is if you solve the box they'll.
400
00:21:14.730 --> 00:21:18.549
Come yeah that's it potentially if you unsolve it they
401
00:21:18.569 --> 00:21:22.450
go away yeah sort of yeah well that's I would
402
00:21:22.490 --> 00:21:24.410
say that they're very maybe I don't know if there
403
00:21:24.430 --> 00:21:29.690
are any other major franchise villains that are Potentially neutral,
404
00:21:30.009 --> 00:21:35.849
morally speaking. Freddy Krueger's straight needle. I mean, Jason's a
405
00:21:36.029 --> 00:21:39.150
cold-blooded killer. Yeah, he's supposed to be like a traumatized
406
00:21:39.230 --> 00:21:43.880
child or something, but he's still killing. Leatherface kills and
407
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:46.839
knows it, even though he's mentally all over the place,
408
00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:49.240
depending on which... But he takes the joy in the
409
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:53.339
killing and stuff like that. He's the most cold-blooded of
410
00:21:53.420 --> 00:21:55.559
all of them, almost, next to Freddy Krueger, as far
411
00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:57.269
as he just kills because he likes to kill.
412
00:21:57.529 --> 00:21:57.700
Yeah.
413
00:21:58.140 --> 00:22:00.069
Yeah, so see what I mean? I don't know, but
414
00:22:00.089 --> 00:22:02.109
the Cenobites could be morally neutral.
415
00:22:03.250 --> 00:22:06.450
I guess you could argue, if you want to go there,
416
00:22:06.470 --> 00:22:11.250
that the alien is morally neutral, because it's just a creature.
417
00:22:11.269 --> 00:22:17.089
Yeah, maybe, but I think that morally neutral requires an observation,
418
00:22:17.210 --> 00:22:21.130
and since it's a monster and it's the antagonist... Yeah,
419
00:22:21.170 --> 00:22:23.170
that makes sense. Because what I mean is, when you
420
00:22:23.190 --> 00:22:26.210
look at the Cenobites, the way they talk... It makes
421
00:22:26.269 --> 00:22:30.390
them sound like they're explorers that operate beyond the ordinary
422
00:22:30.470 --> 00:22:36.299
confines of good and evil. Yes. Right? Yes. So there's
423
00:22:36.339 --> 00:22:39.519
that idea that what they do is provide experiences humans
424
00:22:39.579 --> 00:22:42.740
can't understand. Mm-hmm. And maybe that's what they mean by
425
00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:45.859
angels to some, demons to others, because it's up to
426
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:49.640
your interpretation, which is why I'm saying they're neutral. Yeah.
427
00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:53.059
Because it is always ultimately up to the interpretation.
428
00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:57.089
Yeah. Well, yeah. But then- The counter argument would be Kirstie,
429
00:22:57.109 --> 00:23:00.789
because she summons them by accident. They still are going
430
00:23:00.829 --> 00:23:03.890
to kill her and torment her for eternity and tear
431
00:23:03.950 --> 00:23:06.819
her soul apart. And her torment will be legendary even
432
00:23:06.859 --> 00:23:10.160
in hell. All the great quotes from the film. But
433
00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:13.880
they then do go after her even after they make
434
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:14.500
a deal with her.
435
00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:15.900
Yeah.
436
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:18.599
But see, that's what I'm thinking, though, is they don't
437
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:24.640
ever actually confirm with her that they'll let her go.
438
00:23:25.450 --> 00:23:27.990
If she gives them Frank, it's more just, we want
439
00:23:28.009 --> 00:23:30.670
to take Frank, so we'll see what happens when you
440
00:23:30.690 --> 00:23:32.490
take us to him sort of thing.
441
00:23:32.690 --> 00:23:32.910
Yeah.
442
00:23:32.930 --> 00:23:35.210
They seem to imply it, but it's like they come
443
00:23:35.329 --> 00:23:36.730
after her in a technicality.
444
00:23:37.130 --> 00:23:37.390
Yeah.
445
00:23:38.109 --> 00:23:39.849
So that's one of the things I've always found the
446
00:23:39.890 --> 00:23:43.869
most interesting about the Cenobites is that level of kind
447
00:23:43.910 --> 00:23:48.029
of ambiguity. Mm-hmm. Are they evil or are they something
448
00:23:48.230 --> 00:23:51.680
else entirely? Because they're clearly not neighbors.
449
00:23:52.180 --> 00:23:52.599
Yeah.
450
00:23:53.259 --> 00:23:54.559
There's something up with them.
451
00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:55.059
Yeah.
452
00:23:55.099 --> 00:23:57.640
I don't know. What was your first... Because I don't
453
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:00.099
really remember a time before I knew Hellraiser because I
454
00:24:00.140 --> 00:24:03.779
was so young. What was your first... You had seen
455
00:24:03.940 --> 00:24:04.779
Pinhead and stuff.
456
00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:05.339
Mm-hmm.
457
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:09.420
And you'd seen maybe clips and this or that. What
458
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.809
was your first impression when you first saw the Cenobites
459
00:24:11.849 --> 00:24:16.289
come out? When you saw Chatter and... Butterball. Butterball. Yeah.
460
00:24:16.309 --> 00:24:18.109
What was your first reaction?
461
00:24:18.650 --> 00:24:22.940
My first... Well, my first reaction was... Honestly, I could
462
00:24:23.089 --> 00:24:28.069
understand why Pinhead and the female Cenobite were like the
463
00:24:28.109 --> 00:24:33.450
poster children. Because Chatter and Butterball are still terrifying, but
464
00:24:33.569 --> 00:24:37.740
those two on their own just really make it. And
465
00:24:38.059 --> 00:24:43.279
the more that Penn had talked as the mouthpiece of
466
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:47.900
all of the Cenobites, I realized, oh, this is one
467
00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:51.660
of my favorite villains in horror because of how complex
468
00:24:51.700 --> 00:24:56.740
they are and how morally ambiguous they are. I want
469
00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:00.869
to say at that point we'd watched Nightmare on Elm
470
00:25:00.900 --> 00:25:02.920
Street and Halloween and.
471
00:25:05.670 --> 00:25:11.130
Texas Chainsaw Massacre, but we hadn't watched Child's Play or
472
00:25:11.549 --> 00:25:19.640
Candyman yet. So, yeah, and Candyman's a little morally ambiguous,
473
00:25:19.940 --> 00:25:23.680
not nearly on this level, but he's got that whole
474
00:25:23.740 --> 00:25:27.029
tortured artist. In the movie, he was a slave, so
475
00:25:27.049 --> 00:25:30.250
there's a little bit of him taking power back sort
476
00:25:30.289 --> 00:25:30.670
of thing.
477
00:25:30.730 --> 00:25:32.569
Yeah, I don't know if I'd call him, I agree,
478
00:25:32.670 --> 00:25:35.430
I don't know if I'd call him morally ambiguous. But
479
00:25:35.490 --> 00:25:39.190
he certainly has a empathetic origin.
480
00:25:39.529 --> 00:25:40.470
Yeah, there you go.
481
00:25:40.529 --> 00:25:42.910
Which Jason has an empathetic origin.
482
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:43.440
Yes.
483
00:25:43.619 --> 00:25:46.380
Freddie does not have an empathetic origin. Chucky does not
484
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:50.940
have an empathetic origin. Leatherface, you could argue depending on which, well,
485
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:52.579
because he doesn't have an origin unless you go into
486
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:53.200
later movies.
487
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:53.940
Yeah.
488
00:25:54.099 --> 00:25:56.240
And there are versions of his backstory where he was
489
00:25:56.289 --> 00:25:59.890
a kidnapped baby. Well, kidnaps is a strong word. A
490
00:25:59.950 --> 00:26:05.089
taken baby. or adopted baby that he was mentally stunted
491
00:26:05.150 --> 00:26:08.069
or duh. So then he's just doing whatever he's taught because,
492
00:26:08.890 --> 00:26:10.849
and he's just growing up around people who are completely
493
00:26:10.910 --> 00:26:13.609
perverted as far as the concept of right and wrong
494
00:26:13.670 --> 00:26:16.970
and evil and murder. And yeah. Yeah. So he has
495
00:26:17.009 --> 00:26:19.750
a little bit of an empathetic background. You could almost
496
00:26:19.849 --> 00:26:22.279
give the alien, like you were saying, an empathetic background,
497
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:25.220
except it really does just exist. At least in the
498
00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:27.819
first movie, again, only looking at one movie, it does
499
00:26:27.859 --> 00:26:30.390
exist to just destroy, right? So it would be, I
500
00:26:30.410 --> 00:26:32.230
think it'd be different if it wasn't on their ship.
501
00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:33.220
Yeah.
502
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:34.180
What's a little bit different.
503
00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:37.900
It would be different if it's well, but you'd want
504
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:40.619
to stick with just the first movie though. Cause the,
505
00:26:40.700 --> 00:26:42.599
all the sequels of alien is yeah, they do find
506
00:26:42.619 --> 00:26:45.839
the planet and they're still just as horrendous. And deadly.
507
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.980
Yeah, you can dabble with it. It's more because that
508
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:51.740
could eat up an entire show all by itself if
509
00:26:51.779 --> 00:26:54.109
we dived into all of the alien films.
510
00:26:54.150 --> 00:26:56.049
Yeah, so I'm going to put that can of worms away.
511
00:26:56.069 --> 00:26:57.950
We should do aliens sometime, though.
512
00:26:57.970 --> 00:27:00.690
We really should. I would love that. I'll put that
513
00:27:01.109 --> 00:27:03.529
in our list of movies to cover eventually.
514
00:27:03.750 --> 00:27:04.130
If you want.
515
00:27:04.230 --> 00:27:08.210
But yeah, so that's what really struck me is the
516
00:27:08.430 --> 00:27:13.009
complexity and the moral ambiguity of And again, going back
517
00:27:13.089 --> 00:27:15.970
to Clive Barker did a great job of giving you
518
00:27:16.130 --> 00:27:21.309
just enough lore to get you hooked. And throughout the
519
00:27:21.410 --> 00:27:25.009
whole movie, you get the feeling that there is so
520
00:27:25.089 --> 00:27:29.150
much more to the Cenobites and the puzzle box and
521
00:27:29.190 --> 00:27:32.240
the world that they inhabit. There's so much more to it.
522
00:27:32.630 --> 00:27:36.390
And you get little tastes. But he does a great
523
00:27:36.450 --> 00:27:39.829
job of staying restrained with the world building so that
524
00:27:39.849 --> 00:27:43.910
when it doesn't overtake the movie. The movie really is
525
00:27:44.069 --> 00:27:46.529
mostly about Larry and Julia.
526
00:27:46.869 --> 00:27:52.230
Yeah. And their family dynamic. Yeah. And Julia's obsession with Frank. Well,
527
00:27:52.289 --> 00:27:54.799
and before, so to stay on the Cenobites just a
528
00:27:54.819 --> 00:27:57.359
little bit longer, do you know what the term Cenobite means?
529
00:27:58.359 --> 00:27:58.579
No.
530
00:27:59.380 --> 00:28:02.480
It refers to a member of a communal religious order.
531
00:28:03.700 --> 00:28:04.519
Oh, okay.
532
00:28:04.579 --> 00:28:07.940
So then when you look at them with their very
533
00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:14.119
disciplined behavior, They're all clearly dressed a specific way, ceremonial.
534
00:28:15.099 --> 00:28:16.460
It suggests a kind of priesthood.
535
00:28:16.829 --> 00:28:17.180
It does.
536
00:28:17.980 --> 00:28:21.450
So then if you want to go even deeper with it,
537
00:28:21.630 --> 00:28:26.630
they're self-mutilation, possibly self. Self because of them as one unit.
538
00:28:27.069 --> 00:28:27.210
Right.
539
00:28:27.230 --> 00:28:30.130
They might mutilate each other. But it is almost like
540
00:28:30.190 --> 00:28:32.130
religious mortification. I don't know if you're familiar with the
541
00:28:32.150 --> 00:28:34.450
practice of religious mortification. Yeah, I'm familiar with that, yeah.
542
00:28:34.769 --> 00:28:39.559
Which is often... In many faiths, it's a way to
543
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.940
experience suffering as a route beyond ordinary existence.
544
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:44.599
Yeah.
545
00:28:45.140 --> 00:28:49.279
So that's something that's interesting too. But then the question becomes,
546
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:51.869
so are they transformed in some way? Obviously they are
547
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:54.630
beyond living in death, life and death. There's a part
548
00:28:54.650 --> 00:28:57.630
where she says, go to hell. And they're like, no. Yeah.
549
00:28:58.369 --> 00:28:59.430
Basically already there.
550
00:28:59.549 --> 00:29:01.950
Sweetheart. Been there, done that, took pictures, bought the t-shirt.
551
00:29:02.569 --> 00:29:05.450
But so is it spiritual transformation or is it more just,
552
00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:09.039
torture given, like, ceremonial garb.
553
00:29:09.779 --> 00:29:11.569
Okay. I.
554
00:29:13.299 --> 00:29:15.940
When I first watched the movie, and as I've watched it,
555
00:29:16.420 --> 00:29:19.759
I do get the idea, the feeling that it is
556
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:25.059
a religious... Undertone? What was the phrase that you were
557
00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:25.640
torturing themselves?
558
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:26.119
Oh, mortification.
559
00:29:26.140 --> 00:29:31.700
Yeah, religious mortification. I've gotten that vibe from it that
560
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:37.650
just they were already... So into torture that they were
561
00:29:37.710 --> 00:29:42.990
pulled into suffering. that was so beyond human experience that
562
00:29:43.009 --> 00:29:46.410
it became almost like ecstasy. That's kind of like the
563
00:29:46.450 --> 00:29:47.279
vibe that I got.
564
00:29:47.339 --> 00:29:50.150
Well, with the major S & M influence that the
565
00:29:50.170 --> 00:29:52.960
movie definitely has rolling through it. And Clive Barker was
566
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:59.430
never shy about saying he was, I believe, a gay
567
00:29:59.450 --> 00:30:02.509
man he's definitely most of his lovers have been men
568
00:30:02.549 --> 00:30:04.849
like he's known live live in lovers and stuff his
569
00:30:04.869 --> 00:30:07.029
whole life i don't know he could be bisexual doesn't
570
00:30:07.049 --> 00:30:09.549
really matter but he definitely was like hanging in those
571
00:30:09.630 --> 00:30:14.430
scenes in the 70s and 80s which would influence it
572
00:30:14.789 --> 00:30:19.779
he himself always identified punk catholicism and snm clubs as
573
00:30:19.859 --> 00:30:21.880
major influences on the cenobites.
574
00:30:21.460 --> 00:30:24.549
Directly I can see that a million percent.
575
00:30:25.069 --> 00:30:27.109
But yeah, there is that question of, is it just
576
00:30:27.150 --> 00:30:31.750
that have they discovered something beyond human existence or beyond
577
00:30:31.789 --> 00:30:35.509
human experience? Or if you wanted to go on the
578
00:30:35.569 --> 00:30:39.269
other side, it could be that they've actually just simply
579
00:30:39.390 --> 00:30:43.890
lost something that's essentially human inside them. And that's something
580
00:30:43.930 --> 00:30:46.519
I've always bounced around. I don't have a, I don't have,
581
00:30:46.819 --> 00:30:49.559
these are just thoughts. I don't have a concept necessarily.
582
00:30:50.230 --> 00:30:55.789
Well, and then you could also ask, are they beings
583
00:30:55.869 --> 00:31:01.640
that have just come about to give suffering its own
584
00:31:01.700 --> 00:31:02.920
corporeal form?
585
00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:07.819
Could be, but they're so beyond the suffering that humans understand.
586
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:10.660
So that's where it gets a little confusing for me.
587
00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:13.569
On one hand, they could be the personification of suffering,
588
00:31:13.589 --> 00:31:17.289
but they're beyond suffering almost. Yeah. So I don't know.
589
00:31:17.819 --> 00:31:20.759
That one's a little hard to kind of dig up.
590
00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:24.180
But of course, what was it? I wrote it down somewhere.
591
00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:27.599
In a more recent interview, Barker did say he initially
592
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:31.710
wanted to title the film Sadomasochists from Beyond the Grave.
593
00:31:34.930 --> 00:31:35.650
I'd watch that.
594
00:31:36.710 --> 00:31:39.789
Who wouldn't? But yeah, so there's a lot more to
595
00:31:39.890 --> 00:31:42.859
unpack about Hellraiser, and we'll get to it right after this.
596
00:31:50.910 --> 00:31:55.829
So we get introduced to Frank and then pretty quickly
597
00:31:55.890 --> 00:32:00.549
get introduced to his brother, Larry. Yeah. And Julia.
598
00:32:01.490 --> 00:32:04.549
And Larry, I want to mention, played by the legendary
599
00:32:04.710 --> 00:32:09.319
Andrew Robinson, one of the finest character actors ever. And
600
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:11.299
he's still around, too. For some reason, I thought he'd
601
00:32:11.339 --> 00:32:13.380
passed away recently, and I'm happy to see he has not.
602
00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:14.420
He's 84 years old.
603
00:32:14.539 --> 00:32:15.299
Oh, good for him.
604
00:32:15.339 --> 00:32:19.339
But he... was famous for playing the serial killer Scorpio
605
00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:22.109
in Dirty Harry that kind of made him a household name.
606
00:32:22.509 --> 00:32:22.990
Oh, cool.
607
00:32:23.289 --> 00:32:25.430
And then he played one of my favorite Star Trek
608
00:32:25.450 --> 00:32:28.829
characters of all time, Garak, in Star Trek Deep Space Nine.
609
00:32:29.410 --> 00:32:32.549
But he's just a really fascinating performer, actor. He's written
610
00:32:32.589 --> 00:32:36.509
a few books in his day. He wrote a book called,
611
00:32:36.529 --> 00:32:38.150
I cannot remember the name of it right now, A
612
00:32:38.190 --> 00:32:42.039
Stitch in Time, I think, which was a book written
613
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:44.480
as if it was written by Garak from Deep Space Nine.
614
00:32:44.539 --> 00:32:45.339
He wrote it himself.
615
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:46.160
That's fun.
616
00:32:46.910 --> 00:32:49.269
So he's done a lot of really cool work. I
617
00:32:49.269 --> 00:32:51.390
don't know. I've just always found him really fascinating. But anyway,
618
00:32:51.829 --> 00:32:55.380
he's a great addition because Larry is really milquetoast. He's
619
00:32:55.740 --> 00:32:57.759
not totally milquetoast. He does seem to have an edge
620
00:32:57.799 --> 00:32:58.539
to him at times.
621
00:32:58.680 --> 00:32:59.099
He does.
622
00:32:59.299 --> 00:33:04.059
But correct me if I'm wrong. So he's married to Julia. Obviously,
623
00:33:04.099 --> 00:33:07.910
this is a second marriage. In part because Julia looks
624
00:33:07.950 --> 00:33:10.470
a little bit younger, but more so because once his
625
00:33:10.509 --> 00:33:13.029
daughter's around, once Kirstie's around, it's very clear that they
626
00:33:13.069 --> 00:33:16.450
are not related, that they're trying to get along. Yes.
627
00:33:17.309 --> 00:33:21.829
So to me, it seemed like Larry is mostly just
628
00:33:21.930 --> 00:33:26.130
reactionary toward Julia. That Julia is clearly has an undercurrent
629
00:33:26.150 --> 00:33:30.059
of being unhappy, has an undercurrent of being, oh, what
630
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:34.900
do you call it? Restless. Yes. And I think that's
631
00:33:34.980 --> 00:33:37.619
what puts Larry in kind of a position because it
632
00:33:37.660 --> 00:33:40.710
seems like whenever his character is around other people or whatever,
633
00:33:41.089 --> 00:33:44.609
he's a pretty affable person. He's pretty funny. He's pretty
634
00:33:44.650 --> 00:33:47.049
easy to get along with. His daughter seems to adore him.
635
00:33:47.069 --> 00:33:47.829
Oh, yeah.
636
00:33:47.869 --> 00:33:50.529
Which suggests that he must be pretty kindly. His daughter is,
637
00:33:51.069 --> 00:33:52.529
I would say, probably 20.
638
00:33:52.529 --> 00:33:52.690
Yeah.
639
00:33:52.869 --> 00:33:55.849
Because she's been away at college. And the film is
640
00:33:55.890 --> 00:33:59.910
all about them moving, well, him and Julia moving into
641
00:33:59.950 --> 00:34:03.990
this house that he grew up in. Because it sounds
642
00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:07.880
like they may have hit some financial issues or personal
643
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:10.340
issues when they lived in Brooklyn.
644
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:10.440
Yeah.
645
00:34:11.179 --> 00:34:14.480
Yeah, but for some reason it has become clear that
646
00:34:14.500 --> 00:34:16.980
it's better for them to move into his childhood home.
647
00:34:17.420 --> 00:34:20.360
And it's especially convenient because his brother Frank had been
648
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:22.780
living there for a while, but they haven't heard from Frank.
649
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:23.599
Well, squatting.
650
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:24.940
Squatting, yeah.
651
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:27.280
Because it's not like he kept the electricity on or anything.
652
00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:29.300
He just slept there and, you know.
653
00:34:29.619 --> 00:34:30.800
Just kept his shit there.
654
00:34:30.909 --> 00:34:35.710
Kept his gross photos and stuff there. And he basically
655
00:34:35.989 --> 00:34:38.449
tells her that they're going to move in there, I'm
656
00:34:38.510 --> 00:34:40.750
guessing in part because the house is paid for, but also.
657
00:34:41.309 --> 00:34:43.989
He has a new job or he got transferred. They
658
00:34:44.010 --> 00:34:45.369
don't make it clear. It doesn't sound like he'd been
659
00:34:45.409 --> 00:34:47.730
unemployed for a long time or anything. No. But he
660
00:34:47.789 --> 00:34:49.989
basically and they don't say exactly where it is. We
661
00:34:50.030 --> 00:34:52.559
assume it's somewhere else just outside of New York City
662
00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:54.079
is the vibe I get by how they were saying,
663
00:34:54.099 --> 00:34:56.059
what about Brooklyn? It makes me think it was like
664
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:59.280
this is Long Island or Westchester or a place that's
665
00:34:59.380 --> 00:35:01.280
just outside of New York. You do have to take
666
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:03.000
a long bus ride to get to New York City,
667
00:35:03.699 --> 00:35:07.320
but you are still technically basically outside New York. Yeah.
668
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:09.699
But he mentions about Julia that this is a great
669
00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:11.869
place for her to start up again for her work.
670
00:35:12.849 --> 00:35:16.670
So suggesting that maybe she had hit some personal issues. Mm-hmm.
671
00:35:16.949 --> 00:35:19.150
There does seem to be this undercurrent that she doesn't
672
00:35:19.170 --> 00:35:21.010
want to live there, but that he's clearly doing this
673
00:35:21.349 --> 00:35:23.849
to benefit her. Yeah. But we don't get a lot
674
00:35:24.230 --> 00:35:25.070
of expansion on that.
675
00:35:25.710 --> 00:35:25.869
Yeah.
676
00:35:25.969 --> 00:35:29.030
And I like it that way, that they come in
677
00:35:29.329 --> 00:35:33.969
and there's obviously tension because moving is not fun.
678
00:35:34.110 --> 00:35:35.010
Yeah, it's very stressful.
679
00:35:35.969 --> 00:35:39.050
But- There's also this, yeah, like you said, there's this
680
00:35:39.110 --> 00:35:42.150
tension of him trying to offer this olive branch of
681
00:35:42.190 --> 00:35:43.929
this is going to be good for both of us.
682
00:35:44.570 --> 00:35:46.670
This will be good, not just for me, this will
683
00:35:46.690 --> 00:35:48.730
be good for you. And she just turns up her
684
00:35:48.769 --> 00:35:51.010
nose at it. Yeah, but this isn't what I want.
685
00:35:51.329 --> 00:35:52.889
So why does it even matter? Yeah.
686
00:35:53.170 --> 00:35:55.250
Sort of thing. Well, but she also won't admit what
687
00:35:55.289 --> 00:35:57.590
she wants. And we find out very quickly when we
688
00:35:57.610 --> 00:36:04.639
see a flashback that Frank, the terminally hedonistic monster family member,
689
00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:08.559
Had shown up the day before their wedding or within
690
00:36:08.579 --> 00:36:09.780
a week of their wedding, something like that.
691
00:36:09.820 --> 00:36:11.440
Very shortly before their wedding.
692
00:36:11.460 --> 00:36:15.519
And basically seduced Julia. And then they began having this
693
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:20.639
on again, off again thing. Yeah. Which is extra fascinating
694
00:36:20.679 --> 00:36:27.230
because Frank is dismissive and cruel and intense.
695
00:36:27.789 --> 00:36:28.030
Mm-hmm.
696
00:36:28.670 --> 00:36:32.539
And Larry is... the opposite he wants her to be
697
00:36:32.579 --> 00:36:34.300
happy he would do anything to make her.
698
00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:37.860
Happy he's dedicated there's constant moments where he's asking what
699
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:39.639
do you need what can i do like yeah for
700
00:36:39.659 --> 00:36:42.849
you no problem you got it he's very dedicated to
701
00:36:42.909 --> 00:36:45.769
her and very into their marriage and she has this
702
00:36:45.809 --> 00:36:48.170
kind of darkness but then the other funny thing is
703
00:36:49.130 --> 00:36:51.949
this is another deeper dichotomy of hellraiser a voice found
704
00:36:51.989 --> 00:36:53.409
really fascinating.
705
00:36:53.590 --> 00:36:58.909
Julia's attitude is that she will be freed by frank Right?
706
00:36:59.219 --> 00:36:59.429
Right.
707
00:36:59.449 --> 00:37:00.510
Because she's trapped.
708
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:01.090
Yeah.
709
00:37:01.250 --> 00:37:06.130
But Frank is literal prison. Frank is literal control. That's
710
00:37:06.170 --> 00:37:11.829
his kink. He's a sadist. So it's one of those
711
00:37:11.909 --> 00:37:15.570
freedom through slavery type deals, which I always found really
712
00:37:15.650 --> 00:37:19.230
an interesting story point and an interesting kind of area,
713
00:37:19.289 --> 00:37:21.750
I don't know, to kind of go through in the film. Oh, yeah.
714
00:37:21.829 --> 00:37:26.710
It's really interesting seeing the way she, you know, seeing
715
00:37:26.789 --> 00:37:30.869
the way she interacts with Larry. just a frigid ice queen.
716
00:37:31.070 --> 00:37:33.769
Yeah, she's so cold toward him. And he's honestly, we
717
00:37:34.670 --> 00:37:37.670
just rewatched it. I don't really remember him ever getting
718
00:37:38.730 --> 00:37:40.630
overly crappy with her either.
719
00:37:40.809 --> 00:37:42.849
It seems like he really is kind of sweet. Yeah,
720
00:37:42.869 --> 00:37:47.030
the only time he kind of even vaguely raises his
721
00:37:47.090 --> 00:37:50.659
voice to her is literally when she is trying to
722
00:37:50.739 --> 00:37:54.320
seduce him so that Frank can kill him.
723
00:37:54.340 --> 00:37:54.860
Yeah.
724
00:37:55.119 --> 00:37:57.760
And then she kind of freaks out a little bit
725
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:00.929
when she kind of comes to terms with the fact
726
00:38:00.949 --> 00:38:04.409
that's what's going to happen and then she's freaking out
727
00:38:04.449 --> 00:38:07.489
while he's on top of her and then he pulls
728
00:38:07.550 --> 00:38:10.239
back and he's just well one minute you're all over
729
00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:12.260
me and the next minute you're telling me to stop
730
00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:15.699
what's going on yeah and i can't and you can't
731
00:38:15.739 --> 00:38:16.559
even blame.
732
00:38:16.340 --> 00:38:18.159
Him no well you can't you can't blame him at
733
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:19.929
all the only other time he seems to get kind
734
00:38:19.949 --> 00:38:22.309
of stern with her is when it involves kirsty yes
735
00:38:22.809 --> 00:38:26.989
with kirsty because the first so Frank is introduced, he's
736
00:38:27.219 --> 00:38:33.710
a corpse with no flesh that's slowly, whatever, reconstituting. Julia
737
00:38:33.849 --> 00:38:37.230
has to bring him more blood. So she's picking up
738
00:38:37.269 --> 00:38:40.210
dudes and bringing them to the house, and then they
739
00:38:40.230 --> 00:38:41.800
think they're going to get lucky, and then they get
740
00:38:41.929 --> 00:38:45.719
real unlucky. Yeah. And it's pretty hideous, it's pretty grotesque.
741
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:49.300
It's one of the heights of grotesqueness the film gets
742
00:38:49.340 --> 00:38:51.380
to without the Cenobites being directly involved.
743
00:38:51.579 --> 00:38:51.840
Yeah.
744
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:52.860
And.
745
00:38:53.420 --> 00:38:57.780
Meanwhile, Larry's just existing and Frank has been suggesting throughout
746
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:01.619
he would kill Larry and his attitude about when he's
747
00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:04.099
kind of, it's time to bring Larry up here. It's
748
00:39:04.139 --> 00:39:06.909
so matter of fact, there's no consideration at all. He
749
00:39:06.929 --> 00:39:10.070
would just do it, which is really fascinating about him.
750
00:39:10.110 --> 00:39:12.829
But then like when Kirstie's around, when they're moving in
751
00:39:12.869 --> 00:39:15.269
and everything, what is the first thing he does? He
752
00:39:15.329 --> 00:39:19.550
says hi to Kirstie. He's. He's really something I picked
753
00:39:19.590 --> 00:39:22.139
up on a lot this most recent viewing. This is
754
00:39:22.179 --> 00:39:24.199
an empty nest kind of situation.
755
00:39:24.260 --> 00:39:25.659
Oh, a million percent.
756
00:39:25.719 --> 00:39:27.789
Which I think makes him more frustrated with Julia because
757
00:39:27.809 --> 00:39:29.289
he's like, well, now's the time for us to just
758
00:39:29.309 --> 00:39:32.880
enjoy living. together. My daughter's moved out. She's at college.
759
00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:36.260
But the first time we even speak to Christy, he's
760
00:39:36.300 --> 00:39:38.460
on the, or see her speak, he's on the phone
761
00:39:38.510 --> 00:39:39.739
with her saying, I thought you were going to stay
762
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:41.369
with us. And she's like, no, I found a room
763
00:39:41.389 --> 00:39:43.250
while I'm around or whatever.
764
00:39:43.269 --> 00:39:46.769
And he's trying so hard to get her to move
765
00:39:46.849 --> 00:39:47.510
back in.
766
00:39:47.530 --> 00:39:51.250
And That's one of the things I find fascinating. So
767
00:39:51.289 --> 00:39:54.190
then she comes over and the first thing he tells
768
00:39:54.210 --> 00:39:56.989
her is like, Julia is not handling things very well.
769
00:39:57.139 --> 00:39:59.500
She's very stressed out by the move and stuff. So
770
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:01.139
just try to be gentle with her.
771
00:40:01.159 --> 00:40:02.579
Just try to include her a bit more.
772
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:05.699
But that's literally his entire stance is he's just trying
773
00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:07.539
to be kind to her. We're good. Go easy on her.
774
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:12.719
So that's where they're at. Yeah. And then later on
775
00:40:12.739 --> 00:40:17.710
to talk about how Larry is. They have this dinner
776
00:40:17.730 --> 00:40:20.940
where they have friends over, mutual friends. And one of
777
00:40:20.980 --> 00:40:24.800
the guys who's there is Kirstie's age. And I get
778
00:40:24.820 --> 00:40:28.360
the sense he's a kid of a family friend or something.
779
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:32.289
He just knows him. But he's very outwardly flirting with Kirstie.
780
00:40:33.250 --> 00:40:34.949
Everybody can tell he's flirting with Kirstie.
781
00:40:35.010 --> 00:40:35.289
Oh, yeah.
782
00:40:38.780 --> 00:40:41.920
Larry's never, he's not bothered by it. He's not annoyed
783
00:40:41.980 --> 00:40:44.090
by it. He really has, it seems to me, and
784
00:40:44.750 --> 00:40:46.449
tell me if I'm wrong, it seems to me like
785
00:40:46.469 --> 00:40:48.210
he has a very healthy attitude about, my daughter's a
786
00:40:48.250 --> 00:40:50.230
woman now. She's grown up. Oh, absolutely. If she was
787
00:40:50.269 --> 00:40:52.030
to have another glass of wine and go home with
788
00:40:52.050 --> 00:40:52.489
this guy.
789
00:40:52.510 --> 00:40:54.010
Yeah, who am I to stop her?
790
00:40:54.050 --> 00:40:55.829
That's her choice as long as she doesn't drive because
791
00:40:55.849 --> 00:40:58.599
you don't want her driving while she's drunk. Which goes
792
00:40:58.659 --> 00:41:00.159
to show the more I think about the movie, the
793
00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:04.420
more I think that Larry's level of perfection is definitely,
794
00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:08.039
and by perfection, just like he lacks the kinds of
795
00:41:08.929 --> 00:41:12.110
flaws you would expect from that character yes he's not
796
00:41:12.269 --> 00:41:15.960
jealous yeah he's not controlling not even of his own
797
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:19.619
daughter he's very understanding of you're in college now or
798
00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:24.059
all that stuff it can only be purposeful to make
799
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:26.960
it so much worse that anybody would want to betray
800
00:41:27.019 --> 00:41:29.320
him the way julia wants to in the way frank
801
00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:32.110
wants to when it's like larry's perfectly good guy yeah
802
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:33.239
He's the.
803
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:34.699
Kind of guy I would just go down to the
804
00:41:34.900 --> 00:41:36.099
bar and have a beer with.
805
00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:38.619
But he wouldn't because he'd be like, my wife's expecting
806
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:41.199
me home at seven. Yeah, exactly. He wouldn't, yeah. And
807
00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:43.340
it seems to me like all of the strife in
808
00:41:43.389 --> 00:41:44.530
his life is Julia.
809
00:41:45.010 --> 00:41:50.250
I know. And it makes it so much harder as
810
00:41:50.789 --> 00:41:54.570
she just, as they move in and she keeps having
811
00:41:54.690 --> 00:41:56.650
flashbacks and all these memories of her.
812
00:41:56.670 --> 00:41:59.500
Missing Frank. Well, because they're finding his stuff around the
813
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:01.949
house before she finds Julia. The ultimate stuff, which is
814
00:42:02.030 --> 00:42:03.250
the remains of him. Yeah.
815
00:42:04.789 --> 00:42:05.050
Yeah.
816
00:42:05.090 --> 00:42:08.429
But yeah, they find pictures of him and she's thinking
817
00:42:08.489 --> 00:42:12.010
about him and their experiences. And it's, you know, the
818
00:42:12.030 --> 00:42:13.320
phrase shit rolls downhill.
819
00:42:13.550 --> 00:42:13.780
Yes.
820
00:42:13.929 --> 00:42:18.320
So we see these flashbacks of her and Frank getting
821
00:42:18.340 --> 00:42:21.380
it on and then him being just an absolute asshole
822
00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:22.420
to her afterward.
823
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:23.619
Oh, yeah.
824
00:42:24.510 --> 00:42:26.789
What does she turn around and do? And her poor
825
00:42:26.909 --> 00:42:29.630
husband is, oh, honey, I made some lemonade and I
826
00:42:29.670 --> 00:42:31.570
made a sandwich for you. I'm going to go down
827
00:42:31.590 --> 00:42:33.590
to the shop. And she's like, ah, fuck you. Oh,
828
00:42:33.989 --> 00:42:35.949
so shit really does roll downhill.
829
00:42:36.530 --> 00:42:39.610
There's that whole sequence when she's in the bathroom feeling
830
00:42:39.929 --> 00:42:43.210
upset about the guys that she's helped kill and stuff.
831
00:42:43.889 --> 00:42:45.110
And he's just like, are you okay? She's like, I'm
832
00:42:45.150 --> 00:42:48.510
not feeling well. And then he's like, well, is there
833
00:42:48.530 --> 00:42:50.929
anything you need? And she goes, a brandy. And he's
834
00:42:50.949 --> 00:42:53.659
like coming right up. All he wants to do is help.
835
00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:56.320
Which actually, now that we're saying it all out loud,
836
00:42:56.639 --> 00:43:01.000
feeds into the fact that he probably was a phenomenal dad. Yeah.
837
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:03.179
Because he's paternal as all get out.
838
00:43:03.260 --> 00:43:03.480
Yeah.
839
00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:04.920
He really is.
840
00:43:04.940 --> 00:43:06.440
Because all he ever wants to do is make her
841
00:43:06.460 --> 00:43:10.320
more comfortable, make her happy, make her feel whatever thing.
842
00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:12.800
In a way, that's the only controlling element of him
843
00:43:12.860 --> 00:43:14.480
is just that he wants to be there.
844
00:43:14.840 --> 00:43:15.039
Yeah.
845
00:43:15.940 --> 00:43:18.159
So, of course, that means he's got to get his
846
00:43:18.679 --> 00:43:22.440
fucking skin peeled off. Pardon my French. Ooh, yeah.
847
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:25.340
Yeah. It is always the good ones, isn't it?
848
00:43:25.710 --> 00:43:31.150
Yeah. And the kind of B story is just Kirstie.
849
00:43:31.650 --> 00:43:31.869
Yeah.
850
00:43:32.190 --> 00:43:35.260
Living and trying to figure out what her adult life
851
00:43:35.320 --> 00:43:41.000
is like, trying to understand her dad's devotion to Julia
852
00:43:41.019 --> 00:43:44.719
because she doesn't outwardly hate Julia that we see. But
853
00:43:44.739 --> 00:43:47.320
she does seem frustrated with her. She's like, it's always something.
854
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:50.219
There's always some drama with Julia. Julia's not feeling well.
855
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:51.150
She's so high maintenance.
856
00:43:51.190 --> 00:43:51.469
Yeah.
857
00:43:51.550 --> 00:43:54.150
Julia's not feeling well. Oh, Julia doesn't like moving because
858
00:43:54.210 --> 00:43:57.849
everybody else loves moving. Yeah. Julia doesn't like it when
859
00:43:57.869 --> 00:44:01.570
her parents die. Yeah. Julia's just a person. She's just
860
00:44:01.610 --> 00:44:03.949
a person. Nobody likes these things, but some of them
861
00:44:04.010 --> 00:44:06.329
aren't as big a deal as others. But everything is
862
00:44:06.369 --> 00:44:10.400
all about her. Yeah. But then ironically, Frank in his...
863
00:44:11.110 --> 00:44:15.710
deep desire to dismiss basically everybody somehow makes her feel
864
00:44:15.750 --> 00:44:19.130
more wanted than anything. Because if he is going to
865
00:44:19.170 --> 00:44:23.429
have her, he has to have her entirely. Yes. Which is, again,
866
00:44:23.730 --> 00:44:28.130
leaning into that whole slavery is freedom thing, which is
867
00:44:28.170 --> 00:44:32.159
very BDSM. Oh, yeah. So I don't know, but I definitely,
868
00:44:32.260 --> 00:44:33.679
the more I watch it, the more I'm like, gosh,
869
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:36.760
Larry doesn't have any undercurrents, unless I really missed them,
870
00:44:36.820 --> 00:44:39.440
because we just rewatched it. And I was wide awake
871
00:44:39.500 --> 00:44:41.090
and fully paying attention the whole movie.
872
00:44:41.409 --> 00:44:41.889
Yeah.
873
00:44:42.210 --> 00:44:45.309
Well, and that's because we did a couple years ago.
874
00:44:45.349 --> 00:44:48.409
We've rewatched this, but we rewatched this the other night.
875
00:44:48.489 --> 00:44:52.730
And I just the whole time I was like, oh, man, Larry. Oh, man.
876
00:44:53.130 --> 00:44:56.760
Poor guy. I just feel bad for him more and more.
877
00:44:56.820 --> 00:44:59.320
He's just trying his best to take care of everybody
878
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:00.480
around him. Yeah.
879
00:45:00.780 --> 00:45:00.920
And.
880
00:45:01.929 --> 00:45:03.650
We don't, I don't know. Do they say, I think
881
00:45:03.690 --> 00:45:03.969
they met.
882
00:45:04.010 --> 00:45:04.130
Yeah.
883
00:45:04.150 --> 00:45:06.909
They mentioned that her mother's dead. Yes. Kirstie's mother is dead.
884
00:45:07.090 --> 00:45:10.019
They don't mention like how long or, but it is
885
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:13.760
enough to know. And he was clearly from the little
886
00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:17.500
bit that we get, cause moving the mattress and that's
887
00:45:17.539 --> 00:45:20.559
what kind of sets off a bunch of the events,
888
00:45:21.059 --> 00:45:23.590
moving the mattress. He had to have a couple of guys,
889
00:45:23.690 --> 00:45:26.809
big burly guys help him move it. And when Kirstie
890
00:45:26.849 --> 00:45:29.489
comes by the big girly burly guys, they see her.
891
00:45:29.530 --> 00:45:32.900
She's a good looking girl. And, They start making comments
892
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:36.239
to Frank. Oh, she really takes after her mom. And
893
00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:38.780
he says, well, she's dead. Oh, yeah.
894
00:45:38.820 --> 00:45:40.239
He does. He just says her mother's dead.
895
00:45:40.699 --> 00:45:44.159
And kills the vibe. And again, that's the only time
896
00:45:44.179 --> 00:45:48.610
that he shuts people down is when they're like legitimately being.
897
00:45:48.829 --> 00:45:48.909
Yeah.
898
00:45:48.929 --> 00:45:50.889
And those dudes were annoying from the beginning. They're like
899
00:45:51.010 --> 00:45:54.809
asking for beer. While they're working for him, they're not
900
00:45:54.849 --> 00:45:56.510
doing a good job. He's having to help them the
901
00:45:56.550 --> 00:45:57.090
whole time.
902
00:45:57.150 --> 00:45:57.369
Yeah.
903
00:45:57.710 --> 00:46:00.130
And he gets injured because they're not doing their job.
904
00:46:00.190 --> 00:46:02.449
Because they're not paying attention to anything. And yeah, it's
905
00:46:02.530 --> 00:46:05.980
a lot. My vibe was that he married Julia probably
906
00:46:06.019 --> 00:46:07.360
give or take 10 years ago.
907
00:46:07.820 --> 00:46:08.019
Yeah.
908
00:46:08.300 --> 00:46:10.380
That would be my vibe because when they do the flashback,
909
00:46:10.420 --> 00:46:13.260
she just has a different hairstyle and she comes off
910
00:46:13.300 --> 00:46:16.019
just younger. Yeah. In a way, he's not quite so
911
00:46:16.099 --> 00:46:22.119
frigid and so standoffish. And then the time goes by. Clearly,
912
00:46:22.650 --> 00:46:25.909
Her and Kirstie didn't bond very much. Kirstie definitely wants
913
00:46:25.969 --> 00:46:28.349
out of the house, but still has an incredible affinity
914
00:46:28.389 --> 00:46:30.389
for her father. She just wants out of the house.
915
00:46:30.429 --> 00:46:32.690
And maybe it was because Julia was a nightmare to
916
00:46:32.710 --> 00:46:33.309
live with for her.
917
00:46:33.329 --> 00:46:35.909
Or maybe little Bernie just needs to fly.
918
00:46:35.929 --> 00:46:37.219
I don't know. Julia makes me think.
919
00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:39.000
It was probably Julia.
920
00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:44.099
But yeah, so that leads into a really funny anecdote
921
00:46:44.300 --> 00:46:46.179
about the making of the film. But we'll get to
922
00:46:46.239 --> 00:46:57.059
that right after this. So when the film was being made,
923
00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:03.800
there was some claims that, as I mentioned, Clive Barker
924
00:47:03.880 --> 00:47:05.420
did not really direct the film.
925
00:47:05.780 --> 00:47:06.139
Okay.
926
00:47:06.860 --> 00:47:10.659
The claim was that in reality, the film was directed
927
00:47:10.739 --> 00:47:16.670
by the editor of Hellraiser, Tony Randell. And the reason
928
00:47:16.690 --> 00:47:20.230
that name may sound familiar is not because he's not
929
00:47:20.289 --> 00:47:25.389
Tony Randall, the actor. But because Tony Randell went on
930
00:47:25.449 --> 00:47:26.789
to direct Hellraiser 2.
931
00:47:26.789 --> 00:47:28.429
Oh, gotcha.
932
00:47:28.909 --> 00:47:31.829
And a lot of other films. Tony Randell, and he was...
933
00:47:32.730 --> 00:47:35.090
IMDb is saying he was an uncredited editor on the
934
00:47:35.110 --> 00:47:38.010
first one. Maybe that is the case. But he's a
935
00:47:38.050 --> 00:47:43.590
very experienced editor. He's edited more than 100 films. Still
936
00:47:43.650 --> 00:47:47.329
editing movies to this day. But as far as directing,
937
00:47:48.289 --> 00:47:53.239
he has done... Let's see. His first feature was Hellraiser 2.
938
00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:55.000
Then he did Children of the Night, which is a
939
00:47:55.019 --> 00:47:57.760
vampire movie that I actually like quite a bit. Then
940
00:47:57.800 --> 00:48:01.239
he directed Amityville 1992, It's About Time, which is my
941
00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:04.280
favorite of the Amityville sequels. Then he did a film
942
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:07.280
called Ticks, which I've also been a huge fan of.
943
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:10.639
And he directed a boatload of segments on Beyond Belief
944
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:12.980
Factor Fiction. Oh, fun. So he did a bunch of stuff,
945
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:16.739
but some people have claimed that he was secretly directing
946
00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:20.769
the movie. Randell does not. Okay. In fact, he says
947
00:48:20.869 --> 00:48:24.570
that what happened was the, some of the studio people
948
00:48:25.010 --> 00:48:29.789
that were financing Hellraiser got nervous because they were looking
949
00:48:29.949 --> 00:48:35.329
at the dailies and their exact response was, is this
950
00:48:35.429 --> 00:48:42.219
entire movie just people talking in a stairway? Which I
951
00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:46.079
think makes sense because there is a lot of scenes
952
00:48:46.099 --> 00:48:49.099
where In that stairway. Yeah, and a lot of dialogue
953
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:52.840
because it is a marriage drama. But Randell was the
954
00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:55.599
one who supposedly either was looking at the footage. It's
955
00:48:55.619 --> 00:48:56.889
been a while since I heard the story, but he
956
00:48:56.909 --> 00:48:59.750
was either looking at the footage himself as an editor
957
00:48:59.989 --> 00:49:02.989
or he was visiting set regularly. And he was the
958
00:49:03.050 --> 00:49:05.449
one that came to them, according to him, and just said, no,
959
00:49:05.469 --> 00:49:08.429
this is good stuff. He's getting really good stuff. The
960
00:49:08.469 --> 00:49:11.360
effects are really good. And they did end up amping
961
00:49:11.389 --> 00:49:15.610
the effects up. Because the Cenobites arrived and stuff, they
962
00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:18.449
decided to make it way crazier. That's why all those
963
00:49:18.469 --> 00:49:21.030
shots of the walls cracking apart. and stuff. A lot
964
00:49:21.050 --> 00:49:23.809
of that was decided later on to be done. But
965
00:49:24.289 --> 00:49:28.579
it is a testament to the film's errors as a
966
00:49:28.739 --> 00:49:33.019
just kind of a marriage drama, family drama, that the...
967
00:49:33.340 --> 00:49:35.469
producers could look at the dailies and be like, so
968
00:49:35.489 --> 00:49:37.429
does everybody just talk in a staircase in this movie?
969
00:49:37.449 --> 00:49:39.630
Because there are a lot of scenes in the staircase.
970
00:49:39.809 --> 00:49:41.739
And ever since I heard that, every time I watch it,
971
00:49:41.769 --> 00:49:44.170
I do unintentionally think about, wow, there are a lot
972
00:49:44.190 --> 00:49:47.610
of scenes in staircases. In the one staircase, rather. Because
973
00:49:47.650 --> 00:49:50.170
the house is a three-level house. Yeah. So there's a
974
00:49:50.190 --> 00:49:54.230
lot of that staircase travel stuff. But I always like
975
00:49:54.250 --> 00:49:56.699
to bring that up because now when you watch Hellraiser,
976
00:49:57.219 --> 00:50:00.440
anyone listening, you will immediately think of how many times
977
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:01.260
are they in the staircases.
978
00:50:03.190 --> 00:50:03.969
We should start counting.
979
00:50:05.030 --> 00:50:06.750
Gosh, it's probably obscene.
980
00:50:08.289 --> 00:50:10.130
I'd like to see the script breakdown for that.
981
00:50:11.150 --> 00:50:13.730
I'm sure it just says interior staircase, but, you know,
982
00:50:13.829 --> 00:50:15.489
and night, maybe, or day.
983
00:50:15.510 --> 00:50:19.969
I don't know. I don't know. Well, but speaking of
984
00:50:20.010 --> 00:50:21.090
the effects, though.
985
00:50:21.550 --> 00:50:21.710
Yeah.
986
00:50:21.730 --> 00:50:26.960
Because that is one of the things that was legendary
987
00:50:27.019 --> 00:50:30.360
to me. Like, hearing about it was, oh, man, the
988
00:50:30.420 --> 00:50:34.150
effects of Hellraiser are so insane. Like, And it did
989
00:50:34.289 --> 00:50:40.849
impress me the first time I saw it, Frank's regeneration sequence.
990
00:50:41.210 --> 00:50:41.570
Oh, yeah.
991
00:50:42.309 --> 00:50:46.480
But what caught me this time is the score during
992
00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:49.739
that sequence. The entire score of the movie is just gorgeous,
993
00:50:49.820 --> 00:50:54.059
I feel. But for that sequence especially, it's got this
994
00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:59.940
drama and almost a romantic quality to it that really
995
00:51:00.039 --> 00:51:03.860
plays with your expectations because what's happening on screen is
996
00:51:04.599 --> 00:51:06.500
so viscerally disgusting.
997
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:08.500
I always got the sense that it was meant to
998
00:51:08.539 --> 00:51:12.570
be seductive because the whole concept is seductive for lack
999
00:51:12.610 --> 00:51:15.409
of a better term. But the music, the score has
1000
00:51:15.449 --> 00:51:19.789
always been heavily loved and rightfully so. Apparently there was
1001
00:51:19.829 --> 00:51:23.829
an original score being made before Christopher Young came in
1002
00:51:23.889 --> 00:51:28.150
and did the main score. And the abandoned music from
1003
00:51:28.190 --> 00:51:30.869
the film has gotten a lot of chatter over the years.
1004
00:51:31.469 --> 00:51:34.650
Christopher Young, the composer of Hellraiser, said that his firsthand
1005
00:51:34.670 --> 00:51:39.019
recollection was that Coyle was the other composer's name. Coyle's
1006
00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:42.099
experience with the technical demands of scoring a feature was
1007
00:51:42.179 --> 00:51:47.679
just way too difficult. It was very difficult for him.
1008
00:51:48.469 --> 00:51:52.050
But then some people in the legend space claim that
1009
00:51:52.090 --> 00:51:55.099
it's because the music was too scary. But Christopher Young
1010
00:51:55.139 --> 00:51:56.820
says that wasn't quite what was going on. It was
1011
00:51:56.860 --> 00:51:59.570
that the demands were too much for the composer. And
1012
00:51:59.619 --> 00:52:01.909
I don't know of Coyle's other work, so I can't
1013
00:52:01.949 --> 00:52:05.269
really speak to it. But no, the music is definitely
1014
00:52:05.309 --> 00:52:05.869
a standout.
1015
00:52:08.769 --> 00:52:12.969
Yeah, I would have to. Christopher Young, I'd be curious
1016
00:52:13.010 --> 00:52:17.599
to see what other films he scored. Just because it
1017
00:52:17.699 --> 00:52:20.460
was like the whole thing was really moving. And I
1018
00:52:20.619 --> 00:52:25.190
really liked the. use of silence in particular scenes too.
1019
00:52:25.849 --> 00:52:29.110
Like especially the scene toward the end where Frank is
1020
00:52:29.889 --> 00:52:34.650
chasing Kirstie through the house and suddenly the score goes
1021
00:52:34.710 --> 00:52:38.550
silent and we really just pay so much attention to
1022
00:52:39.130 --> 00:52:42.739
the tension between those two. Really artfully done.
1023
00:52:43.539 --> 00:52:47.159
Christopher Young has had in a very long career of
1024
00:52:47.559 --> 00:52:51.920
compositions just an immense amount Avenging Angel, DEFCON 4. You
1025
00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:53.679
wouldn't know those movies. Nightmare on Elm Street 2. Okay.
1026
00:52:54.699 --> 00:52:58.750
He did the later, the 80s Twilight Zone series. Invaders
1027
00:52:58.789 --> 00:53:03.010
from Mars, which was for Tobey Hooper. Then Hellraiser. Then he's...
1028
00:53:03.030 --> 00:53:05.090
I'm cutting out a bunch. He did the music for
1029
00:53:05.110 --> 00:53:08.170
Hellraiser 2 as well. The Fly Part 2. Hider in
1030
00:53:08.190 --> 00:53:09.719
the House, which is one of my favorite kind of
1031
00:53:09.860 --> 00:53:12.579
silly horror movies. And it goes on and on. The
1032
00:53:12.619 --> 00:53:18.000
Dark Half with George Romero. Tales from the Hood. Species Virtuosity.
1033
00:53:18.159 --> 00:53:23.320
He's got literally... 139 credits on IMDb as recent as 2026. Wow.
1034
00:53:23.380 --> 00:53:26.860
So he's still doing a lot.
1035
00:53:26.980 --> 00:53:30.539
Yeah. He's been a very sought after composer for almost
1036
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:32.900
four decades or no more than four decades.
1037
00:53:32.940 --> 00:53:33.199
Yeah.
1038
00:53:33.239 --> 00:53:35.920
Damn. And coil, who is, I just found his credit
1039
00:53:36.280 --> 00:53:38.159
is only credited as coil. I guess it's not his
1040
00:53:38.199 --> 00:53:40.960
last name. I guess that's just his name. Apparently I
1041
00:53:41.639 --> 00:53:46.250
think he was a band member in, I cannot find,
1042
00:53:46.349 --> 00:53:48.550
why is it not giving me more info? I think
1043
00:53:48.590 --> 00:53:52.579
he was in a, oh, okay, so now I get
1044
00:53:52.599 --> 00:53:55.199
it now. Coyle was an experimental music group in London
1045
00:53:55.239 --> 00:53:56.639
at the time. I see.
1046
00:53:56.659 --> 00:53:57.260
Okay, that makes sense.
1047
00:53:57.280 --> 00:53:59.780
So yeah, they were just not prepared for the level
1048
00:53:59.960 --> 00:54:02.889
of work that a composition could be. I'll tell you
1049
00:54:02.909 --> 00:54:07.889
right now, most pro composers, really solid professional composers that
1050
00:54:07.909 --> 00:54:11.250
you're working on smaller budgets, their turnaround is three to
1051
00:54:11.289 --> 00:54:13.860
four weeks for the entire film score.
1052
00:54:14.099 --> 00:54:14.380
Damn.
1053
00:54:15.099 --> 00:54:17.019
When you're on really big movies, you might have months
1054
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:20.300
and months, but generally it's very short. And I've talked
1055
00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:23.599
to musicians who are not film composers who have definitely
1056
00:54:23.679 --> 00:54:25.659
been like, what? When they hear they could have two
1057
00:54:25.710 --> 00:54:28.170
or three weeks, but then people who've composed a lot,
1058
00:54:28.849 --> 00:54:31.250
two weeks, three weeks seems totally normal to them. So
1059
00:54:31.670 --> 00:54:33.630
maybe that was part of it. Just freaking them out.
1060
00:54:33.710 --> 00:54:35.730
Cause I don't know. Yeah.
1061
00:54:35.809 --> 00:54:39.030
It is a totally different time span than say writing
1062
00:54:39.070 --> 00:54:41.130
an album or something where you could take all the
1063
00:54:41.170 --> 00:54:41.730
time you want.
1064
00:54:42.110 --> 00:54:42.329
Yeah.
1065
00:54:42.550 --> 00:54:43.159
Theoretically.
1066
00:54:43.889 --> 00:54:44.010
Yeah.
1067
00:54:44.780 --> 00:54:47.619
So, but yeah, the music is very, it's phenomenal.
1068
00:54:47.900 --> 00:54:52.980
It is. It is. But also phenomenal is, well, phenomenal
1069
00:54:53.079 --> 00:54:55.400
is a weird way to put it, but the sequence
1070
00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:59.630
where Frank comes back to life still really holds up
1071
00:55:00.070 --> 00:55:02.510
to this day. And you and I were like, as
1072
00:55:02.550 --> 00:55:04.969
we were watching it, I was trying to guess how
1073
00:55:05.050 --> 00:55:06.269
some of the shots were done.
1074
00:55:06.289 --> 00:55:09.010
Oh, yeah. With the reverse motion. Yeah.
1075
00:55:09.070 --> 00:55:09.300
Yeah.
1076
00:55:09.340 --> 00:55:15.010
Backwards melting, backwards pulling liquids away, things like that. Very
1077
00:55:15.110 --> 00:55:16.869
kind of classic movie trickery.
1078
00:55:17.090 --> 00:55:22.690
Yeah. Or his kind of muscles reforming where it was
1079
00:55:22.809 --> 00:55:26.030
clearly wax had been melted, but they just filmed it,
1080
00:55:26.230 --> 00:55:27.210
filmed it in reverse.
1081
00:55:27.250 --> 00:55:27.389
Yeah.
1082
00:55:27.409 --> 00:55:28.030
That was kind of cool.
1083
00:55:28.050 --> 00:55:28.710
It's classic.
1084
00:55:29.030 --> 00:55:33.019
But Julia can look at all this and she's still
1085
00:55:33.099 --> 00:55:36.940
just remembering all the hot and sexy times they had together.
1086
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:40.880
Well, she was scared as shit until he said, it's Frank.
1087
00:55:42.250 --> 00:55:44.070
Yeah, and then it all just kind of comes back
1088
00:55:44.110 --> 00:55:44.369
to her.
1089
00:55:44.710 --> 00:55:47.409
Well, it's also worth mentioning that Frank is portrayed by
1090
00:55:47.650 --> 00:55:48.869
three different people.
1091
00:55:49.190 --> 00:55:49.489
Yes.
1092
00:55:49.630 --> 00:55:53.599
In the film because of the level of transformation he
1093
00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:56.960
goes through. Yes. So I'm trying to find the... Well,
1094
00:55:57.559 --> 00:56:02.019
he's performed by two different actors and then he's performed
1095
00:56:02.179 --> 00:56:04.280
by the actor who plays Larry.
1096
00:56:04.570 --> 00:56:04.820
Yeah.
1097
00:56:04.989 --> 00:56:07.530
Because Larry ends up being him. Yes.
1098
00:56:07.949 --> 00:56:08.130
So.
1099
00:56:08.909 --> 00:56:09.989
Or he ends up being Larry.
1100
00:56:10.110 --> 00:56:11.269
Well, it depends on how you look at it.
1101
00:56:11.289 --> 00:56:12.190
Tomato, potato.
1102
00:56:13.289 --> 00:56:13.429
Go on.
1103
00:56:13.429 --> 00:56:17.969
I said what I said. But yeah, initially Julia is
1104
00:56:18.789 --> 00:56:25.429
very terrified when this mass of keeping bones and viscera
1105
00:56:25.550 --> 00:56:28.320
starts coming to life in front of her. But then
1106
00:56:28.360 --> 00:56:33.039
he starts talking and she realizes it's Frank. And that's
1107
00:56:33.159 --> 00:56:37.239
when she kind of starts hatching this scheme with him.
1108
00:56:37.260 --> 00:56:44.400
But You had a really interesting thought last night. As Frank,
1109
00:56:45.139 --> 00:56:51.570
as she lures victims and Frank feeds and he gains
1110
00:56:52.230 --> 00:56:55.429
more and more of his body back, there's a scene
1111
00:56:55.469 --> 00:56:58.190
where they're like, he's sitting there smoking a cigarette and
1112
00:56:58.210 --> 00:57:00.730
he says that now that he's got nerve endings again,
1113
00:57:01.210 --> 00:57:03.010
this is the first time he's been able to taste
1114
00:57:03.090 --> 00:57:07.039
anything in a really long time. But That just means
1115
00:57:07.099 --> 00:57:10.960
that when the Cenobites do finally find him, he is
1116
00:57:11.320 --> 00:57:14.980
able to fully experience all of the pain they have
1117
00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:16.780
in store for him all over again.
1118
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:22.969
Yeah, once he steals Larry's skin, the skin starts to take,
1119
00:57:23.969 --> 00:57:26.949
and then the Cenobites show up and rip him apart
1120
00:57:26.989 --> 00:57:30.510
all over again. So because of his desire to have skin,
1121
00:57:31.309 --> 00:57:34.719
he pretty much gets to suffer the fate of the
1122
00:57:34.780 --> 00:57:36.110
flesh again. once more.
1123
00:57:36.590 --> 00:57:39.090
All over again. So it does have kind of those
1124
00:57:39.170 --> 00:57:41.989
layers of the more you desire for something, the more
1125
00:57:42.030 --> 00:57:44.130
control it can have over you.
1126
00:57:44.190 --> 00:57:46.190
Yeah, definitely. I would say that's pretty fair.
1127
00:57:47.300 --> 00:57:54.320
So yeah, but as things are developing, Kirstie starts to
1128
00:57:54.340 --> 00:57:58.059
get a sense of something's going on. She has a
1129
00:57:58.099 --> 00:57:59.500
nightmare about it.
1130
00:58:00.110 --> 00:58:02.489
Yeah, about something horrible happening to her father. Yeah.
1131
00:58:03.150 --> 00:58:08.429
And this is She calls, like, in a panic. And
1132
00:58:08.889 --> 00:58:13.000
just how dismissive Julia is continues to drive home, like,
1133
00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:16.800
how much Kirstie cares for her dad and how little
1134
00:58:17.239 --> 00:58:20.920
Julia cares. Because, yeah, it's weird to be an adult,
1135
00:58:21.079 --> 00:58:23.420
a grown adult, and call up your dad in the
1136
00:58:23.440 --> 00:58:24.659
middle of the night and be like, I had a
1137
00:58:24.739 --> 00:58:27.670
horrible nightmare. Are you okay? But at the same time, like,
1138
00:58:28.829 --> 00:58:31.769
you got to be a little understanding. But Julia was not.
1139
00:58:32.289 --> 00:58:35.920
At all. Yeah, yeah. Has very little care for anyone.
1140
00:58:36.880 --> 00:58:41.960
But as Kirstie, you had mentioned that Kirstie was flirting
1141
00:58:41.980 --> 00:58:44.889
with that one guy at the party. She does eventually,
1142
00:58:45.030 --> 00:58:47.409
that's when she has a nightmare, she's back at home
1143
00:58:47.449 --> 00:58:47.889
with him.
1144
00:58:47.909 --> 00:58:47.989
Yeah.
1145
00:58:49.010 --> 00:58:51.690
So as I was thinking about it, I thought that
1146
00:58:51.730 --> 00:58:57.389
was really interesting because sometimes I think it's easy to
1147
00:58:58.309 --> 00:59:02.699
make this a moral or a sexual purity thing. kind
1148
00:59:02.739 --> 00:59:06.059
of story but that's not really it's not that simple
1149
00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:11.179
because Kirstie is an adult. She drinks and she goes
1150
00:59:11.219 --> 00:59:15.449
home with Steve. She's got her own adult life. That
1151
00:59:15.570 --> 00:59:21.409
isn't necessarily what attracts the Cenobites to her. What brings
1152
00:59:21.469 --> 00:59:25.809
the Cenobites to her is literally just opening the puzzle box. Yeah,
1153
00:59:25.869 --> 00:59:29.599
I think that's another reason that I've really enjoyed this movie.
1154
00:59:30.260 --> 00:59:36.510
is the moral ambiguity and just the depth to Kirstie's character.
1155
00:59:36.530 --> 00:59:40.130
Because she clearly cares for her dad. Even if she
1156
00:59:40.170 --> 00:59:43.449
doesn't get along with Julia, she really does try her
1157
00:59:43.489 --> 00:59:46.940
best to make her feel included up until the moment
1158
00:59:46.980 --> 00:59:49.719
she realizes that she's cheating on her dad.
1159
00:59:49.739 --> 00:59:51.840
I think that's putting it lightly.
1160
00:59:53.670 --> 00:59:57.179
When she's working in the pet store and that weird
1161
00:59:57.260 --> 01:00:00.460
vagrant guy is there, she's not super mean to him,
1162
01:00:00.659 --> 01:00:03.340
even when he's really weird and off-putting to her. So
1163
01:00:03.400 --> 01:00:09.280
she's got this sense of being very empathetic toward other
1164
01:00:09.320 --> 01:00:10.789
people that I really like.
1165
01:00:10.949 --> 01:00:12.329
Yeah, I would agree with that, for sure.
1166
01:00:12.510 --> 01:00:18.090
And it makes her a really relatable character. But, yeah,
1167
01:00:18.230 --> 01:00:18.670
as she.
1168
01:00:21.170 --> 01:00:26.530
Realizes what's going on with Julia because her dad told her,
1169
01:00:26.710 --> 01:00:31.000
try to make Julia feel more included. So Kirstie goes
1170
01:00:31.239 --> 01:00:34.579
over unannounced one day to kind of stop in and
1171
01:00:34.719 --> 01:00:40.840
see how Julia's doing and notices her taking some strange
1172
01:00:40.920 --> 01:00:46.829
guy into the house. And that's not all because then
1173
01:00:46.969 --> 01:00:53.159
she sees... This strange guy getting attacked by Julia and
1174
01:00:53.469 --> 01:00:56.230
some monstrous body thing.
1175
01:00:56.250 --> 01:00:59.320
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a way to put it.
1176
01:01:00.489 --> 01:01:02.130
I would freak out. I don't know about you.
1177
01:01:02.489 --> 01:01:04.059
Depends on the day of the week. What I had
1178
01:01:04.099 --> 01:01:05.360
for lunch. That kind of thing.
1179
01:01:06.019 --> 01:01:10.500
But, Julia, this is when we realize... that she's also
1180
01:01:10.619 --> 01:01:14.460
smart and she's resourceful. Because as this is going down,
1181
01:01:14.539 --> 01:01:18.619
she realizes, she sees the puzzle box and she realizes
1182
01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:23.039
that Frank wants it. So she grabs it and throws
1183
01:01:23.079 --> 01:01:25.239
it out the window so that he can't get it.
1184
01:01:25.239 --> 01:01:28.610
Because anything that Frank wants, she doesn't want him to
1185
01:01:28.670 --> 01:01:31.670
have it. And I think it's also worth mentioning that
1186
01:01:31.769 --> 01:01:36.090
she doesn't initially realize, just like Julia, she doesn't initially
1187
01:01:36.190 --> 01:01:41.219
realize who Frank is. It's not until he starts being
1188
01:01:41.340 --> 01:01:44.840
really creepy and handsy and says, come to daddy, it's
1189
01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:51.469
your uncle Frankie. That's when she realizes. And that's important
1190
01:01:51.489 --> 01:01:54.969
that plays into the end of the movie because she
1191
01:01:55.010 --> 01:01:58.469
doesn't really realize what Frank has done to her dad
1192
01:01:58.590 --> 01:01:59.949
until he says, come to daddy.
1193
01:02:00.190 --> 01:02:00.409
Yeah.
1194
01:02:00.590 --> 01:02:04.150
Before that, when he's in, we never see, we only
1195
01:02:04.230 --> 01:02:07.429
have it suggested that Frank is killed. or not Frank
1196
01:02:07.469 --> 01:02:10.010
is killed, that Larry is killed and Frank takes his
1197
01:02:10.050 --> 01:02:14.730
skin until she shows up and sees him and he
1198
01:02:14.829 --> 01:02:18.949
seems just off his hairline. There's blood at his hairline.
1199
01:02:18.969 --> 01:02:20.119
His eyes are a different color.
1200
01:02:20.179 --> 01:02:24.000
His eyes are dark brown instead of blue, which is
1201
01:02:24.059 --> 01:02:28.039
a big one. And the whole sequence where he's talking
1202
01:02:28.099 --> 01:02:30.719
to her and comforting her and she does believe it's
1203
01:02:30.739 --> 01:02:34.579
him is, is a really great testament to how scary
1204
01:02:34.639 --> 01:02:37.619
the idea of having that level of trust in someone
1205
01:02:37.929 --> 01:02:40.389
and them being not only not who you thought they were,
1206
01:02:40.510 --> 01:02:45.449
but the epitome of a bad actor. Yeah. Because much
1207
01:02:45.550 --> 01:02:48.730
like Frank could look at Larry as just whatever, I'm
1208
01:02:48.769 --> 01:02:52.750
going to use his skin to be back. He looks
1209
01:02:52.809 --> 01:02:55.730
the same way at his own niece as just whatever.
1210
01:02:55.769 --> 01:02:59.090
This is another flesh vessel that can be used for
1211
01:02:59.130 --> 01:03:04.500
whatever I may need. And that alone is terrifying because
1212
01:03:04.539 --> 01:03:08.380
we know that there's no limit to the depravity that
1213
01:03:08.420 --> 01:03:09.179
he's interested in.
1214
01:03:09.500 --> 01:03:09.739
Yeah.
1215
01:03:10.139 --> 01:03:12.809
With that in mind, we'll take a quick break and
1216
01:03:12.849 --> 01:03:15.150
come back with more Cenobite-y goodness.
1217
01:03:23.699 --> 01:03:28.980
So, Kirstie has thrown the puzzle box out the window.
1218
01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:29.559
Right.
1219
01:03:29.659 --> 01:03:33.079
And thinking fast, she runs out the house, grabs the
1220
01:03:33.119 --> 01:03:38.219
box and hightails it. And in shock, wakes up in
1221
01:03:38.239 --> 01:03:42.889
the hospital later. And this is where the movie, the
1222
01:03:42.929 --> 01:03:44.550
tone of the movie starts to turn.
1223
01:03:45.250 --> 01:03:45.489
Yeah.
1224
01:03:46.670 --> 01:03:49.750
And just a little bit. Because she wakes up in
1225
01:03:49.769 --> 01:03:55.570
the hospital and the doctor wants an explanation of where
1226
01:03:55.690 --> 01:03:57.309
she got the box.
1227
01:03:57.329 --> 01:03:57.429
Right.
1228
01:03:58.300 --> 01:04:02.639
And she can't tell him. So he's like, okay, well,
1229
01:04:02.659 --> 01:04:05.019
you just stay here. I don't know why a doctor
1230
01:04:05.079 --> 01:04:08.969
would leave a patient unattended with just a random object
1231
01:04:09.030 --> 01:04:11.530
that they found, but they decide that's a great idea.
1232
01:04:12.170 --> 01:04:16.440
So she starts playing with the puzzle box and caressing it.
1233
01:04:16.550 --> 01:04:19.130
And again, we get this feeling that it may be
1234
01:04:19.949 --> 01:04:24.889
guiding her in the way that she interacts with it.
1235
01:04:25.940 --> 01:04:31.710
But even when she's touching it. It's got this sensual
1236
01:04:31.869 --> 01:04:36.369
sexualness to it. And as she touches it, little lights
1237
01:04:36.789 --> 01:04:42.739
shimmer all around, and then a portal, a doorway, opens.
1238
01:04:43.719 --> 01:04:48.840
And we get a small taste of the world that
1239
01:04:48.880 --> 01:04:53.579
the Cenobites come from. It's not fully expanded like it
1240
01:04:53.679 --> 01:04:56.889
is in Hellraiser 2, but it's just enough of that
1241
01:04:57.010 --> 01:05:03.150
taste of Kind of the weird, twisted darkness that is there.
1242
01:05:03.170 --> 01:05:07.150
Yeah, we get little echoes of it, mainly because they
1243
01:05:07.170 --> 01:05:09.219
didn't have a lot of budget to work with. Yeah.
1244
01:05:09.530 --> 01:05:14.760
So it's pretty sparse, but it's well executed when they
1245
01:05:14.800 --> 01:05:18.260
do it. Apparently, I did a little checking during the break.
1246
01:05:18.659 --> 01:05:24.179
Barker described the lament configuration as representing the puzzle of desire. Okay.
1247
01:05:25.139 --> 01:05:28.380
And that the box could be easily read as seduction.
1248
01:05:29.320 --> 01:05:34.909
Because it's beautiful, tactile, mysterious, and requires, and this is
1249
01:05:34.949 --> 01:05:38.710
a quote, intimate manipulation with the hands. Okay.
1250
01:05:39.650 --> 01:05:42.989
Well, it does require an intimate manipulation with the hands.
1251
01:05:44.170 --> 01:05:44.489
Right.
1252
01:05:45.269 --> 01:05:45.409
And.
1253
01:05:46.670 --> 01:05:48.769
That's what you were saying already. I was agreeing with you.
1254
01:05:48.849 --> 01:05:49.730
No, I was agreeing too.
1255
01:05:50.329 --> 01:05:52.230
With me agreeing with you? Yeah. Okay.
1256
01:05:52.730 --> 01:05:53.269
Triple agree.
1257
01:05:53.590 --> 01:05:53.909
All right.
1258
01:05:55.349 --> 01:05:56.489
I get as.
1259
01:05:58.730 --> 01:06:02.949
Kirstie's touching it as Frank's touching the box. Yeah, it's
1260
01:06:03.489 --> 01:06:09.409
very sensual. And then we get a juxtaposition of the
1261
01:06:09.550 --> 01:06:16.690
portal opening to this dank, dark labyrinth. And as Chrissy explores,
1262
01:06:16.710 --> 01:06:19.469
because maybe this is a way to escape, she gets
1263
01:06:19.769 --> 01:06:25.650
chased by some sort of creature. And I liked... Just
1264
01:06:25.690 --> 01:06:28.829
from a creature sort of standpoint, I liked this thing
1265
01:06:28.909 --> 01:06:32.179
because it's very clearly not of this world, but it's
1266
01:06:32.280 --> 01:06:34.880
also very clearly not one of the Cenobites.
1267
01:06:35.579 --> 01:06:36.460
Okay, yeah, I would agree.
1268
01:06:36.659 --> 01:06:41.039
So it operates on a different level, even from them.
1269
01:06:41.920 --> 01:06:45.880
And so it becomes, for a moment, like a very
1270
01:06:45.960 --> 01:06:50.099
different kind of threat. But once she escapes that threat,
1271
01:06:50.579 --> 01:06:54.050
this is when she... turns around and she makes her
1272
01:06:54.110 --> 01:06:59.190
way back into the hospital. But now that she has
1273
01:06:59.590 --> 01:07:03.489
opened and interacted with the puzzle box, now the Cenobites
1274
01:07:04.469 --> 01:07:08.369
can find her because that's the whole agreement. Once you
1275
01:07:08.429 --> 01:07:11.710
solve the box, they come to get you. And so
1276
01:07:12.570 --> 01:07:18.250
now she's faced with being dragged away for torment beyond
1277
01:07:19.050 --> 01:07:20.150
even comprehension.
1278
01:07:20.170 --> 01:07:20.250
Yeah.
1279
01:07:21.190 --> 01:07:24.409
Well, and one thought that just crossed my brain is
1280
01:07:25.250 --> 01:07:28.409
in a way it's almost like forbidden knowledge. Once you solve,
1281
01:07:28.489 --> 01:07:30.349
if you get so curious that you have to solve
1282
01:07:30.389 --> 01:07:34.150
the box, you know that nothing good, let's go for,
1283
01:07:34.289 --> 01:07:37.710
from Kirstie's perspective, she knows that nothing good can come
1284
01:07:37.789 --> 01:07:38.659
from this box.
1285
01:07:39.030 --> 01:07:39.300
Yeah.
1286
01:07:39.449 --> 01:07:45.239
Because it appeared to be important to this monstrosity and yeah.
1287
01:07:45.639 --> 01:07:45.880
Yeah.
1288
01:07:45.900 --> 01:07:49.380
A whole lot of yeesh there. But the curiosity gets
1289
01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:51.960
the better of her, and once you've solved and opened
1290
01:07:51.980 --> 01:07:55.159
the box, you never will be the same. Even if
1291
01:07:55.300 --> 01:08:00.119
you escape not physically scathed, just seeing the Cenobites, seeing
1292
01:08:00.300 --> 01:08:07.329
the lights and the rumblings and these mutilated beings. Yeah, yeah.
1293
01:08:07.369 --> 01:08:09.369
You're never going to see life the same ever again.
1294
01:08:09.389 --> 01:08:12.349
So in a way, it's like a forbidden knowledge, eating
1295
01:08:12.409 --> 01:08:15.130
the apple, Adam and Eve kind of deal.
1296
01:08:15.210 --> 01:08:17.289
No, I like that.
1297
01:08:17.779 --> 01:08:18.319
I like that.
1298
01:08:19.220 --> 01:08:23.579
And that does, the forbidden knowledge kind of slant to
1299
01:08:23.659 --> 01:08:28.329
it does play a bit more, especially into the direct sequel,
1300
01:08:28.390 --> 01:08:33.550
like the second one. Because that's why Kirstie eventually makes
1301
01:08:33.569 --> 01:08:37.750
her way back to Leviathan, is because she has that
1302
01:08:37.829 --> 01:08:40.300
knowledge and there's kind of not much more you can
1303
01:08:40.340 --> 01:08:43.340
do with it other than continue pursuing it in your
1304
01:08:43.380 --> 01:08:44.319
own way. Yeah.
1305
01:08:44.880 --> 01:08:47.789
In that way, it's corrupting. It is. It is.
1306
01:08:47.810 --> 01:08:52.909
And it's interesting because we do throughout the entire series,
1307
01:08:52.949 --> 01:08:54.590
and this is going on a bit of a tangent
1308
01:08:54.670 --> 01:08:58.989
away from just this singular movie, but throughout the entire series,
1309
01:08:59.050 --> 01:09:04.420
we do see that everyone has something that will corrupt them.
1310
01:09:05.539 --> 01:09:09.890
For Frank, it was hedonism. And eventually for Kirstie, it's
1311
01:09:09.930 --> 01:09:13.630
something else, possibly revenge. Further on down the line, justice.
1312
01:09:15.069 --> 01:09:17.270
The sense of unbridled justice.
1313
01:09:17.380 --> 01:09:18.520
I would call it vengeance.
1314
01:09:18.609 --> 01:09:19.460
Vengeance, yes.
1315
01:09:19.539 --> 01:09:21.300
I feel like justice is too soft.
1316
01:09:21.460 --> 01:09:28.659
Yes, vengeance. So, yeah, everybody's got something. Everybody's got something
1317
01:09:28.699 --> 01:09:33.380
that will corrupt them or that can be used against them.
1318
01:09:33.960 --> 01:09:36.979
So it's just interesting in that regard to think of
1319
01:09:37.020 --> 01:09:40.000
it that way, that it's the key that could unlock that.
1320
01:09:40.699 --> 01:09:44.250
Yeah, well, and the fact is, It may only have
1321
01:09:44.289 --> 01:09:48.630
been marketed even to Frank as just being beyond anything,
1322
01:09:49.510 --> 01:09:53.159
because that would be accurate. It's beyond anything that people know.
1323
01:09:53.800 --> 01:09:57.600
Well, and that's the very first line of the film.
1324
01:09:58.100 --> 01:10:00.520
And the very last line of the film is the
1325
01:10:00.579 --> 01:10:05.260
merchant talking about the box. What's your pleasure, sir? That's
1326
01:10:06.079 --> 01:10:11.560
the thesis statement there is that what drew Frank in
1327
01:10:11.739 --> 01:10:15.680
was trying to seek the ultimate pleasure. But obviously that
1328
01:10:15.699 --> 01:10:19.819
didn't turn out great because there's balance to everything. So
1329
01:10:19.960 --> 01:10:22.699
getting the ultimate pleasure, you also got to experience the
1330
01:10:22.739 --> 01:10:23.359
ultimate pain.
1331
01:10:24.140 --> 01:10:27.859
And it depends on how you look at the ending too. Okay.
1332
01:10:28.039 --> 01:10:28.319
Yeah.
1333
01:10:29.180 --> 01:10:31.380
Because I kind of look at the ending as like
1334
01:10:31.420 --> 01:10:37.529
the box gets, you know, I guess recirculated gets taken back.
1335
01:10:37.390 --> 01:10:39.890
Into the world. I meant the ending of the antagonist,
1336
01:10:39.909 --> 01:10:40.520
which is Frank.
1337
01:10:41.270 --> 01:10:42.399
Oh, I see what you're saying.
1338
01:10:42.439 --> 01:10:46.720
The full blown ending story. Because so she opens the
1339
01:10:46.760 --> 01:10:50.020
box and they're ready to tear her soul apart and
1340
01:10:50.060 --> 01:10:52.579
all this stuff. And she tells them, what about Frank?
1341
01:10:53.140 --> 01:10:55.359
He escaped you. And they're like, no, he didn't. No
1342
01:10:55.439 --> 01:10:58.670
one has ever escaped us, which also plays into the
1343
01:10:58.710 --> 01:11:01.189
motivation in part two, where they won't let go of her.
1344
01:11:01.989 --> 01:11:04.659
No one has ever seen the Cenobites and escaped.
1345
01:11:05.180 --> 01:11:05.399
Yeah.
1346
01:11:06.260 --> 01:11:09.079
So that's when she makes the bargain. I can take
1347
01:11:09.119 --> 01:11:12.819
you to Frank if you'll let me go. And they
1348
01:11:12.880 --> 01:11:16.260
are just like, take us to him. Yeah. So and
1349
01:11:16.300 --> 01:11:19.279
that's where the film really gets into delivering a just
1350
01:11:19.319 --> 01:11:21.039
desserts kind of deal.
1351
01:11:21.600 --> 01:11:21.779
Mm hmm.
1352
01:11:22.600 --> 01:11:27.649
No, I because now. Well, now not only are we
1353
01:11:28.029 --> 01:11:31.380
really hoping that Kirstie can get away from the Cenobites,
1354
01:11:32.300 --> 01:11:36.100
because she's cool, she's a nice character, and we want
1355
01:11:36.140 --> 01:11:41.279
her to live, but also we are starting, like, we
1356
01:11:41.380 --> 01:11:44.760
have a feeling that something bad has happened to her dad,
1357
01:11:44.859 --> 01:11:47.500
but she doesn't necessarily know that yet.
1358
01:11:47.979 --> 01:11:49.840
Yeah, well, the last thing she's going to assume is
1359
01:11:49.859 --> 01:11:51.159
that somebody's wearing his flesh.
1360
01:11:51.539 --> 01:11:55.539
Yeah, that's generally not in anyone's bingo card.
1361
01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:57.579
That's generally not accomplishable.
1362
01:11:58.439 --> 01:11:58.659
Yeah.
1363
01:11:58.979 --> 01:12:01.210
It took a massive team of scientists to do it
1364
01:12:01.250 --> 01:12:05.390
in face-off, and that was just the face. It's true.
1365
01:12:05.909 --> 01:12:10.789
But, so, as an audience, not only are we rooting
1366
01:12:10.850 --> 01:12:13.439
for her because we want her to survive, we're also
1367
01:12:13.520 --> 01:12:18.720
starting to root for Frank to get what's coming to him.
1368
01:12:18.960 --> 01:12:21.479
Yeah, the Cenobites are definitely going to bring his comeuppance,
1369
01:12:21.539 --> 01:12:24.159
but now, when she shows up back at the house
1370
01:12:24.270 --> 01:12:28.609
and realizes... all of this and realizes that her father's
1371
01:12:28.630 --> 01:12:32.189
been killed, it shifts. And that was something that really
1372
01:12:32.229 --> 01:12:34.270
hit me this last time watching it. It shifts from
1373
01:12:34.289 --> 01:12:39.890
her just wanting to survive and throw Frank under the
1374
01:12:39.930 --> 01:12:43.560
bus because clearly he's in league with something horrible and
1375
01:12:43.619 --> 01:12:46.659
Julia on top of that, who's clearly worse than she
1376
01:12:46.699 --> 01:12:51.359
ever imagined. But now that her father's been killed, there
1377
01:12:51.720 --> 01:12:55.529
is a, now is when the vengeance comes into play. Before,
1378
01:12:55.550 --> 01:12:57.890
it was more of just kind of, this is your fault,
1379
01:12:57.930 --> 01:12:59.789
so this is your problem. But now it's, no, I
1380
01:12:59.850 --> 01:13:04.569
cannot wait to hand you over to these beings. And
1381
01:13:04.670 --> 01:13:09.039
when the box, when she brings the Cenobites to him
1382
01:13:09.739 --> 01:13:13.079
and Frank realizes what's going on and realizes that they're
1383
01:13:13.399 --> 01:13:17.600
coming to collect, he's scared and angry and he tries
1384
01:13:17.699 --> 01:13:20.949
to attack Kirstie. And the Cenobites get him with the chains.
1385
01:13:21.189 --> 01:13:21.649
Yeah.
1386
01:13:21.670 --> 01:13:24.630
And this is where really we establish what the Cenobites
1387
01:13:24.670 --> 01:13:26.470
would be famous for from here on out, which is
1388
01:13:26.529 --> 01:13:31.649
the chain foo, the sheer amount of chain murder and
1389
01:13:32.229 --> 01:13:37.039
chain torment as hooks dig into his hands and his arms.
1390
01:13:37.060 --> 01:13:37.979
Yeah, his face.
1391
01:13:38.260 --> 01:13:38.520
Yeah.
1392
01:13:38.680 --> 01:13:40.979
And when they finally pull his face to the point
1393
01:13:41.000 --> 01:13:44.489
where it is almost the shape of a football... He
1394
01:13:44.529 --> 01:13:46.229
looks at the camera and delivers one of the most
1395
01:13:46.329 --> 01:13:49.750
famous lines that isn't delivered from Pinhead in the entire series.
1396
01:13:50.369 --> 01:13:53.430
He just takes a beat and as he licks his lips,
1397
01:13:53.470 --> 01:13:55.569
he says, Jesus wept.
1398
01:13:56.289 --> 01:13:56.609
Yeah.
1399
01:13:57.189 --> 01:13:59.569
Which is quite a statement.
1400
01:13:59.590 --> 01:14:03.170
Yeah, quite a quote there.
1401
01:14:03.949 --> 01:14:04.449
Yeah.
1402
01:14:04.829 --> 01:14:09.140
I'm curious because you're kind of the interview reader guy.
1403
01:14:09.229 --> 01:14:14.640
Has Clive Barker ever said like why he... chose that line?
1404
01:14:15.560 --> 01:14:19.250
I wondered that too. From what I recall, there are
1405
01:14:19.270 --> 01:14:26.170
a few different reasonings. It's from John 1135, which is
1406
01:14:26.250 --> 01:14:27.210
just Jesus wept.
1407
01:14:27.550 --> 01:14:29.569
Yeah, the shortest sentence in the Bible.
1408
01:14:29.829 --> 01:14:33.250
Yeah, and in the Gospel of John, Jesus arrives after
1409
01:14:33.289 --> 01:14:36.060
the death of Lazarus. Even though Jesus is about to
1410
01:14:36.109 --> 01:14:38.880
raise Lazarus from the dead, that's kind of Lazarus' whole
1411
01:14:39.119 --> 01:14:42.279
claim to fame, he sees the grief around him and cries.
1412
01:14:43.189 --> 01:14:47.609
The phrase therefore carries associations with death, grief, compassion, and
1413
01:14:47.670 --> 01:14:49.930
then possibly resurrection.
1414
01:14:50.430 --> 01:14:51.270
Okay.
1415
01:14:51.970 --> 01:14:58.489
Okay. Yeah. So apparently, though, Andrew Robinson claims that he
1416
01:14:58.569 --> 01:15:01.569
came up with saying Jesus wept. He claims that in
1417
01:15:01.609 --> 01:15:05.189
the script it said, fuck you or fuck off. Now,
1418
01:15:05.229 --> 01:15:07.250
of course, that's according to IMDb trivia, so it could
1419
01:15:07.270 --> 01:15:10.130
be totally a lie. But he claims that he thought
1420
01:15:10.170 --> 01:15:14.020
of saying, why don't I say Jesus wept? Which I
1421
01:15:14.060 --> 01:15:18.619
could see a well-read actor like him improvising that line,
1422
01:15:18.689 --> 01:15:21.930
especially because it is famous for being the shortest part
1423
01:15:21.970 --> 01:15:24.569
of the Bible, the shortest passage of the Bible. Yeah.
1424
01:15:24.829 --> 01:15:27.930
He said he remembered Jesus wept being an expression from
1425
01:15:27.970 --> 01:15:33.250
his childhood. So it wasn't necessarily thought of immediately as
1426
01:15:33.289 --> 01:15:37.090
a biblical reference so much as a thing that he
1427
01:15:37.149 --> 01:15:37.930
heard people say.
1428
01:15:37.949 --> 01:15:38.029
Okay.
1429
01:15:39.189 --> 01:15:42.470
But in the film it does, it feels obscenely appropriate.
1430
01:15:43.119 --> 01:15:47.899
Frank has literally died. He's been resurrected through blood, and
1431
01:15:47.960 --> 01:15:50.699
now he's going to be destroyed again. Yeah.
1432
01:15:51.460 --> 01:15:53.180
No, it's incredibly fitting.
1433
01:15:53.920 --> 01:15:56.239
Yeah. And then, of course, if you wanted to take
1434
01:15:56.260 --> 01:15:59.300
it the opposite literal way and less figurative, it could
1435
01:15:59.319 --> 01:16:04.399
be that Jesus weeps for what's happening or for Frank's resurrection,
1436
01:16:04.619 --> 01:16:09.770
or even that Jesus wept over him finally accomplishing what
1437
01:16:09.810 --> 01:16:16.560
he'd always wanted. in experiencing this ultimate torment pleasure thing. Okay.
1438
01:16:16.640 --> 01:16:18.060
Those are other ways you could look at it.
1439
01:16:18.239 --> 01:16:18.439
Yeah.
1440
01:16:18.560 --> 01:16:21.460
And cause Frank's delivery of it, it does come off
1441
01:16:22.579 --> 01:16:25.100
more mockingly. It doesn't really come off as like he's
1442
01:16:25.159 --> 01:16:28.399
praying or begging or anything like that. He says it
1443
01:16:28.439 --> 01:16:29.340
with kind of a smirk.
1444
01:16:29.729 --> 01:16:30.020
Yeah.
1445
01:16:30.159 --> 01:16:32.390
It's almost smile contemptuous.
1446
01:16:33.329 --> 01:16:36.470
Well, and that's why a lot of people say that
1447
01:16:36.829 --> 01:16:40.319
the ending is, is a bit different than, than people
1448
01:16:40.399 --> 01:16:43.970
might initially assume that in a way, this was Frank
1449
01:16:44.090 --> 01:16:47.689
finally getting what he'd wanted. So he was happy because
1450
01:16:47.729 --> 01:16:53.189
he didn't just experience things beyond comprehension. He experienced resurrection, rebirth,
1451
01:16:53.970 --> 01:16:57.880
and then absorbing the blood and everything would be definitely
1452
01:16:57.920 --> 01:17:01.119
beyond anything he'd ever experienced before. Okay.
1453
01:17:01.159 --> 01:17:01.539
Yeah.
1454
01:17:01.619 --> 01:17:05.770
So now the Cenobites show up and, and, do their
1455
01:17:05.810 --> 01:17:08.130
Cenobite thing to him and he gets to experience it again.
1456
01:17:08.229 --> 01:17:12.750
In a way, the ultimate sensation would be having it
1457
01:17:12.810 --> 01:17:15.909
happen twice. Yeah. Because no one ever has it happen twice.
1458
01:17:15.949 --> 01:17:16.800
Everybody dies.
1459
01:17:17.100 --> 01:17:17.340
Yeah.
1460
01:17:17.520 --> 01:17:20.600
And then that's it. Okay. Maybe. I don't know.
1461
01:17:20.659 --> 01:17:24.340
Yeah, no, I get that. That does put like a
1462
01:17:24.439 --> 01:17:30.380
totally different, a totally different spin on his demise, but
1463
01:17:30.619 --> 01:17:31.550
I kind of like it more.
1464
01:17:32.590 --> 01:17:34.279
Yeah. There are a lot of ways to read it.
1465
01:17:34.310 --> 01:17:37.649
I think it was intentionally played with the expression on
1466
01:17:37.689 --> 01:17:40.590
his face, even through all that makeup, the way he
1467
01:17:41.270 --> 01:17:44.869
his expression comes through pretty well. It's definitely more than
1468
01:17:44.909 --> 01:17:46.130
just a line. Yeah.
1469
01:17:46.949 --> 01:17:52.510
But of course, now that Frank is gone, Kirstie's got
1470
01:17:52.550 --> 01:17:55.770
a problem because the Cenobites are still there.
1471
01:17:56.500 --> 01:17:58.859
Yeah, and they don't seem to want to leave yet,
1472
01:17:58.920 --> 01:18:00.319
even though the bean dip is empty.
1473
01:18:00.539 --> 01:18:01.460
Yeah.
1474
01:18:01.479 --> 01:18:03.479
And we'll dig into that right after this. Not the
1475
01:18:03.520 --> 01:18:05.890
bean dip. Although, because I told you, we'd already ran out.
1476
01:18:14.590 --> 01:18:18.090
So now that Chrissy has to get away from the Cenobites,
1477
01:18:19.350 --> 01:18:26.390
she has to banish them. But Steve, her boyfriend... he
1478
01:18:26.470 --> 01:18:28.529
came to kind of check on her so she's also
1479
01:18:28.569 --> 01:18:31.409
got to try and help him escape now too yeah
1480
01:18:32.069 --> 01:18:37.539
which is great but i liked that kirsty does like
1481
01:18:37.880 --> 01:18:40.960
she ends up being the one saving him like he
1482
01:18:41.039 --> 01:18:45.189
helps but even when the monster the engineer the the
1483
01:18:45.229 --> 01:18:49.810
monster from the labyrinth like starts pursuing them like she's
1484
01:18:49.829 --> 01:18:51.800
the one that kind of like saves him and pushes
1485
01:18:51.859 --> 01:18:54.399
him out of the way right and the whole time
1486
01:18:54.539 --> 01:19:00.850
she's managing to figure out how to reverse the puzzle
1487
01:19:00.869 --> 01:19:04.170
box so that when they come up against the cenobites
1488
01:19:04.390 --> 01:19:07.689
she can banish them or send them back This is
1489
01:19:07.770 --> 01:19:11.949
really the only part of the mythology that like gets
1490
01:19:12.670 --> 01:19:18.100
a little confusing as not like a super confusing, but
1491
01:19:18.119 --> 01:19:22.119
they never really explain very much like how she is
1492
01:19:22.260 --> 01:19:24.720
able to banish them. But she is able to banish them.
1493
01:19:24.819 --> 01:19:30.350
But when the final banishing happens and the house like implodes,
1494
01:19:31.529 --> 01:19:38.409
she goes to burn the box in the rubble. And
1495
01:19:38.449 --> 01:19:43.050
then we see the creepy homeless guy that has been
1496
01:19:43.270 --> 01:19:48.770
following her around. He goes and walks into the fire
1497
01:19:49.010 --> 01:19:53.520
and grabs the puzzle box and transforms into a skeleton
1498
01:19:53.560 --> 01:19:57.100
dragon and flies away. And then we go back to
1499
01:19:57.140 --> 01:20:00.479
the Oriental market and we hear the merchant say, what's
1500
01:20:00.500 --> 01:20:05.000
your pleasure? And it implies that the cycle happens all
1501
01:20:05.199 --> 01:20:08.850
over again. And that's the first time that we watched
1502
01:20:08.909 --> 01:20:12.729
the movie, and even now watching it again, that's one
1503
01:20:12.770 --> 01:20:17.119
of the things that really has such a big draw
1504
01:20:17.159 --> 01:20:25.079
for me is that it does feel like the lament configuration,
1505
01:20:25.199 --> 01:20:29.739
the puzzle box, the Cenobites, it is cyclical and could
1506
01:20:29.819 --> 01:20:33.609
happen again once the right person gets their hands on
1507
01:20:33.630 --> 01:20:36.159
the box, like, all of this could happen.
1508
01:20:35.939 --> 01:20:38.479
All over again. Yeah, there's like a system in place.
1509
01:20:38.560 --> 01:20:42.000
The puzzle box gets retrieved and then gets offered again
1510
01:20:42.779 --> 01:20:46.699
for whatever reason there might be. It makes sense. How
1511
01:20:46.760 --> 01:20:51.270
else would people keep opening it and summoning the Cenobites?
1512
01:20:51.289 --> 01:20:56.590
How would the Cenobites continue to travel the bizarre places
1513
01:20:56.649 --> 01:20:59.130
they do and encounter the people they need to if
1514
01:20:59.170 --> 01:21:02.310
there wasn't some kind of a plan in there somewhere?
1515
01:21:02.350 --> 01:21:03.090
Yeah, yeah.
1516
01:21:03.890 --> 01:21:04.029
So.
1517
01:21:04.739 --> 01:21:12.170
No, but I really liked having the bookend of that line.
1518
01:21:13.029 --> 01:21:14.930
And I know I mentioned it before, but having that
1519
01:21:14.970 --> 01:21:18.770
bookend of the line really does drive home kind of
1520
01:21:18.890 --> 01:21:24.029
the thesis of the movie, which is that the search
1521
01:21:24.109 --> 01:21:29.449
for the ultimate pleasure is going to, could ultimately lead
1522
01:21:29.529 --> 01:21:32.680
to finding the ultimate pain because they're two sides of
1523
01:21:33.060 --> 01:21:33.880
the same coin.
1524
01:21:34.140 --> 01:21:34.359
Yeah.
1525
01:21:35.090 --> 01:21:40.489
But yeah, so, and I personally, because we've watched a
1526
01:21:40.640 --> 01:21:42.699
lot of the sequels together. Sure.
1527
01:21:42.880 --> 01:21:44.319
Nearly all of them, yeah. Yeah.
1528
01:21:44.840 --> 01:21:49.779
And I personally, I don't despise all of the sequels.
1529
01:21:50.300 --> 01:21:53.659
I think most of them are pretty fun, actually. But
1530
01:21:53.819 --> 01:21:58.500
this one for me, I can see why it's a
1531
01:21:58.579 --> 01:22:03.189
classic and why it became so beloved so quickly.
1532
01:22:03.210 --> 01:22:03.289
Yeah.
1533
01:22:03.899 --> 01:22:11.800
Is because it does hit some similar vibes to slasher
1534
01:22:11.840 --> 01:22:14.960
movies and stuff like that, but it is so wholly
1535
01:22:15.020 --> 01:22:21.060
different in its own right as far as the Cenobites
1536
01:22:21.229 --> 01:22:24.689
and the villains and the way that the family drama
1537
01:22:24.869 --> 01:22:28.069
is just so much of the central part of the
1538
01:22:28.130 --> 01:22:30.029
movie really sets it apart.
1539
01:22:30.609 --> 01:22:32.829
And a lot of that was budgetary. The film only
1540
01:22:32.869 --> 01:22:37.229
had a $ 900, 000 budget to work with. Wow. Nobody wanted
1541
01:22:37.270 --> 01:22:40.010
to fund a big budget horror movie with a first
1542
01:22:40.050 --> 01:22:42.229
time director, even if it was Clive Barker.
1543
01:22:42.670 --> 01:22:43.029
Yeah.
1544
01:22:43.130 --> 01:22:46.579
He had zero experience making films. He had written a
1545
01:22:46.619 --> 01:22:49.279
couple of films and a lot of novels and stuff,
1546
01:22:49.319 --> 01:22:51.699
but he'd never done a film as a director at all.
1547
01:22:52.439 --> 01:22:54.659
He really was in and over his head a little bit,
1548
01:22:54.699 --> 01:22:56.399
but that's why the budget was so low. But it
1549
01:22:56.439 --> 01:22:58.520
did over $ 30 million at the box office.
1550
01:22:59.079 --> 01:22:59.539
Damn.
1551
01:23:00.130 --> 01:23:05.390
Good for them. Now, I know that it was filmed
1552
01:23:05.449 --> 01:23:08.029
a lot in, was it in London or was it?
1553
01:23:08.029 --> 01:23:09.270
It was all filmed in London.
1554
01:23:09.350 --> 01:23:12.489
All filmed in London. So it was released in London
1555
01:23:13.010 --> 01:23:14.369
or in England first, right?
1556
01:23:14.430 --> 01:23:17.520
In Europe? Yeah, they did a premiere in London first. Yeah.
1557
01:23:18.399 --> 01:23:18.619
Okay.
1558
01:23:18.779 --> 01:23:22.319
But Clive Barker was established in London. He is British. Yeah.
1559
01:23:22.359 --> 01:23:25.020
So he was born in London. So that was not
1560
01:23:25.340 --> 01:23:26.100
super unusual.
1561
01:23:26.119 --> 01:23:26.779
Okay.
1562
01:23:28.250 --> 01:23:30.250
I was just curious because I was looking at the
1563
01:23:30.449 --> 01:23:31.529
IMDB page.
1564
01:23:31.550 --> 01:23:34.670
Yeah, it says it was released on my first birthday
1565
01:23:34.729 --> 01:23:36.630
in London, September 10th, 1987.
1566
01:23:36.630 --> 01:23:38.909
Ah, happy birthday!
1567
01:23:38.930 --> 01:23:39.010
Then.
1568
01:23:39.909 --> 01:23:40.149
Then.
1569
01:23:40.170 --> 01:23:42.529
That's what I meant.
1570
01:23:42.789 --> 01:23:46.270
Fair enough. But yeah, so Hellraiser, definitely a film that
1571
01:23:46.289 --> 01:23:47.550
gives you plenty to chew on.
1572
01:23:48.310 --> 01:23:48.489
Yeah.
1573
01:23:49.409 --> 01:23:52.449
I highly recommend, if you haven't checking it out, that
1574
01:23:52.470 --> 01:23:56.029
you should, and I'm glad that I'm glad that you
1575
01:23:56.069 --> 01:24:00.420
introduced it to me so early on in my horror
1576
01:24:00.800 --> 01:24:04.640
education because it gave me a lot to think about
1577
01:24:04.680 --> 01:24:07.300
and it helps set me up to appreciate a bunch
1578
01:24:07.340 --> 01:24:08.619
of other horror movies too.
1579
01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:11.920
Yeah. It's been its own league at that era for sure.
1580
01:24:12.060 --> 01:24:14.300
And there's, like I said, that's why it had that
1581
01:24:14.359 --> 01:24:18.279
staying power that, and because against all odds, Pinhead ended
1582
01:24:18.359 --> 01:24:21.319
up becoming something everybody wanted to see again and again,
1583
01:24:22.050 --> 01:24:26.010
his makeup design with the, the, nails all the way
1584
01:24:26.050 --> 01:24:28.180
across his face. He wasn't called Pinhead in the first one.
1585
01:24:28.189 --> 01:24:29.430
He was just called Lead Cenobite.
1586
01:24:29.810 --> 01:24:30.130
Yeah.
1587
01:24:30.489 --> 01:24:33.170
And the pins on his face, that was the inspiration
1588
01:24:33.189 --> 01:24:36.909
for that came from a method for applying, for working
1589
01:24:36.949 --> 01:24:40.039
on prosthetics and makeup where you just make somebody's head
1590
01:24:40.100 --> 01:24:40.600
as a grid.
1591
01:24:41.180 --> 01:24:41.520
Oh, really?
1592
01:24:41.539 --> 01:24:43.920
So you can put things there. And then the idea
1593
01:24:44.000 --> 01:24:47.819
came to put pins in the crossing of each grid.
1594
01:24:48.140 --> 01:24:51.510
So it was just a lucky accident of sorts.
1595
01:24:51.850 --> 01:24:56.779
Oh, that's really cool. That's, Interesting. Interesting that a little,
1596
01:24:56.800 --> 01:24:59.920
I don't know, a little design choice could lead to
1597
01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:02.199
such a big franchise character.
1598
01:25:02.520 --> 01:25:06.189
Yeah. And made Doug Bradley a household name. Before that,
1599
01:25:06.210 --> 01:25:08.829
I think he was mostly just a play actor. I mean,
1600
01:25:09.029 --> 01:25:11.569
it was between playing the lead Cenobite and playing one
1601
01:25:11.590 --> 01:25:14.170
of the movers. I'm serious. Oh, really? That was what
1602
01:25:14.210 --> 01:25:17.189
he was offered. And he almost went with the mover
1603
01:25:17.229 --> 01:25:21.180
because the mover had more lines. For real, that's how
1604
01:25:21.189 --> 01:25:21.449
it works.
1605
01:25:21.770 --> 01:25:21.989
Yeah.
1606
01:25:22.260 --> 01:25:25.270
Well, he... Pick the right one, I would say.
1607
01:25:26.310 --> 01:25:30.130
Probably. I would say. But yeah, so definitely a great
1608
01:25:30.250 --> 01:25:33.810
addition to your spooky season watch. Hellraiser, while not a
1609
01:25:34.689 --> 01:25:37.720
literal Halloween movie, is a movie that definitely fits in
1610
01:25:37.729 --> 01:25:40.659
Halloween very well. What's a movie that fits into Halloween
1611
01:25:40.779 --> 01:25:46.939
even better and is a very Halloween movie is 1978's Halloween.
1612
01:25:46.960 --> 01:25:48.199
Ah, look at that.
1613
01:25:48.520 --> 01:25:53.560
John Carpenter's original classic that spawned. So many sequels and
1614
01:25:53.819 --> 01:25:58.109
even a remake-ish trilogy. Well, two remake, a remake, a
1615
01:25:58.149 --> 01:26:00.729
sequel to the remake, and then a kind of remake
1616
01:26:00.770 --> 01:26:05.890
sequel trilogy. Halloween has had a very long life in
1617
01:26:06.170 --> 01:26:09.270
cinema and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. It's available
1618
01:26:09.289 --> 01:26:12.930
to watch on Plex, free with ads, AMC Plus with
1619
01:26:12.970 --> 01:26:15.479
your subscription. And of course you can rent or buy
1620
01:26:15.520 --> 01:26:18.359
it anywhere you rent or buy your films. That'll be
1621
01:26:18.380 --> 01:26:21.060
what we're talking about next time on cutting deep as
1622
01:26:21.140 --> 01:26:26.000
spooky season gets thicker and thicker. Yeah. So with that
1623
01:26:26.020 --> 01:26:28.300
all being said, if you guys enjoyed the show, which
1624
01:26:28.340 --> 01:26:29.899
I hope you did, I hope you'll catch us when
1625
01:26:29.939 --> 01:26:34.439
we come back in a week or two and make
1626
01:26:34.479 --> 01:26:36.560
sure you subscribe on your favorite podcasting app. If you
1627
01:26:36.590 --> 01:26:38.409
want to send us an email, we would love to
1628
01:26:38.449 --> 01:26:42.560
hear from you at weekly spooky at gmail.com. Send us,
1629
01:26:43.000 --> 01:26:45.420
your thoughts on the films we've talked about films we
1630
01:26:45.439 --> 01:26:48.340
should talk about, et cetera. We'd be happy to read
1631
01:26:48.380 --> 01:26:51.359
it and yeah, make sure you're subscribed because so many
1632
01:26:51.819 --> 01:26:54.600
pieces of Halloween content are going to be releasing this
1633
01:26:54.640 --> 01:26:57.689
spooky season. It's going to be obscene and maybe even
1634
01:26:57.729 --> 01:26:59.569
hard to keep up with to listen to. Cause I
1635
01:26:59.590 --> 01:27:01.550
can tell you it's hard to keep up with recording.
1636
01:27:02.050 --> 01:27:04.050
And if you want to support us in direct way,
1637
01:27:04.090 --> 01:27:06.729
head to weekly spooky.com slash join for, for as little
1638
01:27:06.770 --> 01:27:09.369
as $ 1 a month, you can get two bonus shows
1639
01:27:09.489 --> 01:27:12.979
every month, my undying gratitude and know you're directly supporting
1640
01:27:12.989 --> 01:27:14.939
the spooky, but now we're going to get out of
1641
01:27:15.000 --> 01:27:17.939
here until next time. Thank you all for listening. Rach,
1642
01:27:17.960 --> 01:27:20.279
you could have the final Cenobite-y word.
1643
01:27:20.939 --> 01:27:25.399
Yeah, I got nothing.
1644
01:27:25.770 --> 01:27:26.090
That'll work.