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What happens if we did have to tear off the mask of professionalism?
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This is a professionalism.
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I was at South by Southwest in 2007, and Mark Zuckerberg was there to do a keynote.
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And I went to a Facebook party and had a chat with him back in the day, as you do.
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Oh wow.
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And asked him about this.
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And I said, now that you see that it's causing all these problems, are you going to change the design so that people can manage their different contexts differently?
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And he said, no, that was his intention all along.
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And that he believed that if you're different in different aspects of your life, you're lying.
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And it completely changed my PhD.
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And I looked into how Facebook was pushing people to be real.
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Kate, welcome to the show.
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Thanks for having me.
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I'm really excited about this.
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Me too.
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You've called yourself professionally unprofessional.
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So I am more than curious to hear about your moment when you've been unprofessional.
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So I think I think back to the first time that I was professionally unprofessional because I think it kind of set the tone for the rest of my life.
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But before I answer that, I I did my undergrad in philosophy.
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And so that's all about the first thing is you have to define your terms.
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And so what do we mean by unprofessional?
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So for me, it's almost there's a lot of aspects too.
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But I think the core one is that it's something where we're saying to be safe.
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It's like we're gonna do this to be safe.
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It's not gonna rock the boat.
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It's you know, wearing the right clothes, doing the right thing, acting in the right way.
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And it's the safe way, but I don't think it's always the right way.
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And I think actually, well, we can get into this, but I think often it's like a false safety that gets in the way of actually getting into true vulnerability and connection and who we really are.
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So it's a false safety.
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And so I think back to the first time that I did this, and this was when I was um living in Canada and I I was in my first real job, and I had the invitation to move to Australia to do my PhD in internet studies, which spoiler, I ended up doing, but my work, the place I was working at didn't want me to leave and wanted me to stay or wanted me to keep working remotely, and I really just didn't want to do that.
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And so then I did this thing that was really scary, which was I just thought of the number that, like, how would I want to work?
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And what would it, what would be the amount of money that would make it okay for me to go, okay.
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I'm happy to do this.
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And so at the time, I just picked this crazy number and said, I'm only gonna do it this way, I'm only gonna do it on internet relay chat.
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And this is my terms.
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And then they said no, and I said, Okay.
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And then they came back and said yes.
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You came back to yes, yes, and so I basically got to move to Australia and have this like really minimal part-time job that I was to able to move the needle for them, work in the way that I wanted.
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And then it's just become a thing that's really, I think, inspired, yeah, the rest of my life, which is to do things that are scary.
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And and I think people would tell you not to do that.
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You know, it's don't don't do that.
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You just accept the lower offer or don't ask for that, don't do the the thing that especially I think there's a gender thing probably in there, it's a young woman as well.
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Yep.
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Just wondering what I'm diagnosed neurodivergent as well, right?
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Yeah, yeah.
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So everything else, everybody else is telling you don't do that, everybody else is telling you um not to do that thing.
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And yeah, listen to your only gut and your own advice and what feels true to you, and um, yeah, be true to yourself.
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And it's interesting, you're the second one sharing such a story on the podcast to putting out a number that is ridiculously high and then getting a yes for it.
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Yeah.
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Which me makes me now think, why are we not doing this more often?
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And maybe, as you said, maybe men do this actually more often.
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Yes.
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Well, my one of my um business, I wouldn't say business guru, she's more like my business superhero, Cindy Gallup, who her tagline on LinkedIn is on the Michael Baethe business, I like to blow shit up.
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And she's this like fabulous former ad exec who is kind of living her amazing, fabulous life, jet setting around the world.
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She's I think in her 60s now, and it's just how I want to be when I get a bit older.
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But she says that you should ask for the amount that the the highest amount that you can ask for without laughing.
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That's just such good advice with that playfulness in there, right?
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It makes it a bit of a game, right?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So where did the fear come from for you?
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Well, I think I think initially the fear was overridden.
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And maybe that was the cheat that got me into doing it.
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The fear was overridden, which was that I actually didn't want to do the role.
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I I was done and I wanted to move on and start my academic career.
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And so it was kind of like, I actually don't care what the outcome is.
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So if I ask and they say no, like that's still a fine outcome for me.
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Like, you know, and they did say no, right?
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And then when I, you know, I called their bluff, or they called mine bluff, I guess.
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And so the fear was was, I think normally it would be um, you know, fear of missing out, or you know, if I don't ask for a low number, they're gonna say no.
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And you know, that that's like that's a scarcity mentality, I think.
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But that I think keeps us playing small.
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And it's not just financial.
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I mean, that's kind of you know the way the world works, the way that we the world that we live in is that's where we kind of measure it.
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But it's I think it's all sorts of asking that we don't do because maybe there's a fear of being disappointed.
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So you're trying to avoid being disappointed.
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Yeah.
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Fear of rejection.
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Yeah.
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And maybe also the reputation, what if they see me as greedy?
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Yeah, or you know, high maintenance.
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I've been called a high maintenance before, which is a very dangerous thing.
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Not the difficult one.
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Oh, you think you're special?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It's it's incredible with um how much of these uh limiting beliefs are called out when it comes to money and these kind of negotiation situations.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And you define professionalism as false safety.
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Yeah.
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So what do you mean by that?
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And what is then unprofessionalism?
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Well, I think it's sort of like when I think of unprofessionalism, it's or professionalism, it's that you are, you know, I think about conversations with my mom who was like an 80s and 90s power woman.
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Um, you know, like you have to wear a power suit and you can't get a tattoo and you have to do this, and it's there's all of these rules about how you have to be.
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And I was like, I'm gonna dye my hair and get tattoos and get piercings and do all the things because I don't, if that's the the cost of giving all that up who I really want to be and expressing myself, if that's the what I have to give up to do those things, I don't want to do those things.
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But then somehow it's okay to do those things now.
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Right?
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You meet 50 year olds who've just got their first eyebrow piercing.
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So it's it's it's interesting, it's it's helpful that the world has shifted.
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But it's, you know, it's all these things, and like, why does it matter?
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Do those impact you having a job?
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So it's like dressing professionally, acting professionally, you know, having an office that's professional, working in a professional way.
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Because and it's almost like a way of saying it's that's how it's always been done.
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So that's that's how we have to do it.
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Yeah.
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So I think COVID helped to change a lot of that as well.
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What makes you say but it's well, because it was it forced us to, right?
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You know, it forced us to go.
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Well, maybe we're gonna be unprofessional by working from home, and our kids might be, you know, unprofessional in the sense of being messy, being unpolished, you know, showing your human side, showing your real side, showing your personal side, the things that can be vulnerable.
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Cause that's I, you know, if you think going back to that question about safety, it's it's a way to to put on these this mask so that you're not actually showing that part of you that might be different or that can be judged.
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And, you know, that you think of the office, the beige office and the beige suits, and everybody looks the same and dresses the same, and you know, the archetype.
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And it still happens.
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I've gone into it, you know, with clients and some of them, it's still like mad men in there.
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And it's it's a bit wild to me that has, you know, never been interested in functioning in that space.
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But yeah, it's a way to almost like get people, and maybe it's a way to also ask people to be not confronting, right?
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Because it's easier if someone just shows up in a less confronting way and maybe doesn't show up in with the messiness of life, or you know, the big thing now I think is around mental health and neurodivergence, right?
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It's easier if you don't bring all of that.
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I need an accommodation or I need flexibility for being a parent, which is again COVID.
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COVID has uh helped us with that.
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And then the professionalism helps us to structure to make something predictable, to know how it will function, and then everything deviating from that, especially in your divergence, doesn't fit in there.
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Yeah.
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Because it's a bit unpredictable.
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Yeah.
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And it's, I think, also along those lines of the public and the private.
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So looking at like if you and you know, thinking back to maybe when that really started to um evolve around that thinking about the home is for the feminine, for the woman at home, thinking the 50s in the US.
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So did I my my research on Facebook looked at privacy and looking at what menial privacy was, and that's very much around what is the home and what is outside of the home and what is private and what is public, professional, unprofessional.
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So it's it's I think there's that gender even inscribed in there, right?
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Is you wear the suit, you're the man, you go to work, you come home, your wife does this, you keep that stuff quiet, you don't say what happens in the house, the woman stays at home.
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And so even there, yeah.
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Do you think then that social media and maybe Facebook in particular, and I also see it creeping in in LinkedIn, helped to actually mix up the private and the professional and helps us maybe does it help us to become more unprofessional, more real, more ourselves, more daring, or does it even push us more into this competimentalization, if this is English?
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I I love this because I've not actually made this connection before, but looking at my so my PhD looked at Facebook when it was back when it was cool and it was becoming a force in society, and looking at how people use it and navigate privacy.
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And what that really meant to people was not, you know, is my data secure, but what is being shared about me?
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How am I managing my identity?
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And what I assumed in my research when I, because I started it in 2006, so Facebook was two years old at the time.
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So this is 20 years ago, right?
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So yeah, it's crazy to think we've had it for that long, but it is it has changed and it has changed us.
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But back then, the way that people used Facebook was very different than how it is now.
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And I assumed that it was designed in this way that was almost like I've seen there's an article called Autistic Social Social Software, I think it's by Dana Boyd, that talks about how because there's a like a higher percentage of neurodivergence in Silicon Valley, that the way that they designed social interactions is more reflective of that.
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So I had made this assumption that the way that Facebook was designed was maybe because of that.
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So back, and this is so funny and quaint to talk about now, but back then, originally Facebook was for college kids.
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It wasn't for everybody.
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So it's the way you behave when you're in college, right?
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It's accepted, but it doesn't usually go on public record forever.
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So when Facebook started to open up and become more of a public thing and even professional, you started to have situations where people would be fired for their behavior on Facebook.
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Or one of the people in my research, she didn't drink ever.
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And then there was a photo of her pretending to drink this beer bottle, like chugging beer as a joke, and her landlord saw it and then was like questioning her about it.
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So the the term in academia or the research term is called context collapse.
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So it's the idea that normally in every aspect of life we have different ways of behaving, and that's normal.
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And so Facebook came and collapsed that.
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And my assumption was, oh, this must be just because they've haven't really thought about how people, most people behave.
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So I was at South by Southwest in 2007, and Mark Zuckerberg was there to do a keynote.
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And I went to a Facebook party and had had a chat with him back in the day, as you do.
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Oh, wow.
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And asked him about this.
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And I said, you know, now that you see that it's causing all these problems, are you going to change, change the design so that people can manage their different contexts differently?
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And he said, No, that was that was his intention all along.
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And that he believed that if you're different in different aspects of your life, you're lying.
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And so this completely blew my mind because I just assumed it was a mistake.
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And no, he was like, nope, this is intentional.
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And it completely changed my PhD.
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And I looked into how Facebook was pushing people to be real.
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So at the time on the internet, people were using handles, fake names, usernames, playing with their identity.
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And they decided that they wanted everybody to be their real selves and be the same in every aspect of their life.
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So what happened was is you went from the internet being this place where everybody is playing with their identity and you know, being unprofessional to a place where we all just perform our perfect selves, being professional, right?
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Yeah.
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It sounds almost as if the intentions were really nice.
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What if we could be the same person and be accepted for being this person all across?
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It's called a radical transparency, is the philosophy.
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Yeah.
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And somehow, yeah, this didn't work.
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Um, but it blew the lines between the personal and the professional.
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And I remember you telling me that you gave a keynote on what you learned about business from dating.
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This comes to mind.
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Yes, because it's similar where you where you totally blurred the lines.
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Yes.
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So this is at the Lego Series Play, the International Lego Series Play conference in Denmark at Lego Land, which I think is also another kind of unprofessional thing, right?
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We're going to a theme park for kids and having a business conference about a children's toy.
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So there's that.
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And so I went there to talk about my use of Lego Series Play, which is a serious use of Lego that we can get into, but um my adaptation of it for connection and dating and what I learned from that and how you can actually make Lego serious play better by building in more trust and safety and curiosity so that it becomes a better tool for connection.
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Um so it is, yeah.
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So I'm working on a book now about that, about lessons from dating that you can apply to business and vice versa.
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So, what is one lesson that you that you learn from dating that you would apply to business?
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I think it's it's a combined one.
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It's believe what people how people tell you they're gonna be.
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So like believe first impressions.
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So if you have a client who's behaving in a certain way at the beginning and you're looking at doing a longer-term engagement with them, and you know, maybe they ask for too much or don't respect you, or don't show up to the meetings, or everything's done by committee.
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That's how it's gonna be the rest of the time.
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It's not gonna get any better, it'll get worse.
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Yeah, if anything.
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I would love to spend a moment longer there.
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Because it's I think it beautifully fits into the theme of unprofessionalism.
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Where it's all about first impressions.
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That's why people wear suits, that's why they're all these unwritten rules that you we're so scared to overstep or to ignore.
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Where do you then find the where is space for being more human, more authentic, more courageous, more different, more neurospicy?
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If the first impression is so important.
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I'm not sure that they're at odds because I really like working with neurodivergent people.
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So you can you can often tell if someone else is neurodivergent.
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And so that's also that's a good that's a good first impression for me.
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But then it also means that I might be more accommodating to know, okay, if that person's neurodivergent, then there's other things we need to do to make sure that the meeting happens on time.
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For example, so is it they're say late to the meeting because they disrespect you, or is that are they late to the meeting because they're neurodivergent have ADHD?
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Or it's part of the culture where everyone is just a few minutes late.
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Yeah.
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And then okay, so I reinterpret your your finding to it's even more important to be real on the first impression.
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Because if you fake it, yes, yes, it's like, yeah, it is.
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I was about to say, oh, it's like at the first date.
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Yes, that's exactly what you said, right?
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If you you don't want to fake it and then end up in a relationship with the other person expecting you to be someone who you're actually not comfortable being.
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Exactly.
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Yes.
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So I found out that I have ADHD maybe three or four three years ago, two or three years ago.
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:23.359
And just being able to say that and say that to other people who may also be neurodivergent has been a huge relief because it makes it easier for me to not be so hard on myself, but just to go, if I've made this mistake, because I make mistakes all the time, like little mistakes, it's because of you know, I have ADHD.
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:28.240
So I think we can make a often if it's another ADHD person, we can just laugh about it.
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:33.119
So it's you know, it's just being clear that I'm not disrespecting you, but this is just how I operate.
00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.079
And, you know, if that doesn't work, then that's okay, right?
00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:45.440
Like you don't have to work, and that's often I want to have a chat with people first to find out is it a good fit, not just for me, but for you, for both of us, to see if that's a good fit.
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:46.960
And if it's not, that's totally fine.
00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:59.200
Yeah, and how to then find workarounds because a mistake here and there might not be a problem, or it might be a big one, because it infuses this uncertainty, and then how can we work around?
00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:09.279
Yeah, and it's interesting because so the making mistakes is another beautiful example for professional unprofessionalism, right?
00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:11.680
Yes, because mistakes are very unprofessional, right?
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:14.319
Yeah, and especially if it's reckless.
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:15.359
Yes.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:27.440
And then if you make a mistake because you thought it was right, so you actually put intention in and you thought it through and it was still a mistake, is it then still unprofessional?
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:28.880
I'm not sure.
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:29.440
Right?
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:31.759
Or if you're it's like a philosophy question, right?
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:40.720
Yeah, and if your condition got you to make mistakes, um, because your brain functions differently, is this then unprofessional?
00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:54.720
I mean, the the challenge, I guess, and that maybe the what the nut of the question is is because I I don't see, for example, ADHD as like it's not I don't see it as like this, it's like a benchmark for me to understand how I function.
00:19:54.880 --> 00:20:01.920
And so instead of going using it as an excuse for everything, it's going, okay, well, if this is the way that I function, then I need to do these things.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:10.640
And I'm gonna have reminders and alarms and all of these systems to support me not making mistakes or not showing up late.
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:17.680
And so I think it's really, you know, people, there's I think not everybody wants to get diagnosed, not everybody finds it helpful.
00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:21.440
There's all many reasons why to do it or to not.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:34.720
And I think that for me, it was like a way, and a lot hearing this from a lot of people who, a lot of other women who've gotten late diagnosis like me, often because they've they've met me, and I found it out because of the Lego series play community.
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:42.960
So it's like we're all kind of going, oh, if you're like that, then you know, maybe there's there's something else going on and explains, explains myself.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:49.119
But it's there's a choice, it's like a way to go, okay, am I gonna just say this is how I am and that's it, or is it a gross thing?
00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:53.200
Because I've done, I've tried to have events for people with ADHD.
00:20:53.519 --> 00:21:05.759
And the problem is that you get people in various stages of um their their journey with it, and it doesn't really work for a variety of reasons, and it makes me really stressed out as an event organizer.
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:20.559
So I think it's yeah, there's a fine balance between disclosing and saying where you're at, but also taking responsibility to do but also like you know, all just doing your best all the time and not yeah, it's a it's a very fine line.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:33.920
Yeah, because I think yes, what brings up is how do you disclose and how do you treat, are you responsible and have agency in it, or do you take it as an excuse?
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:40.240
I th well, I think there are it's it's sort of like there's things that I can't change, but there's things I can make systems around.
00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:41.039
Yeah.
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:49.759
So I would say that, you know, before I even got my I don't even like to use the word diagnosis because it's not like I have an illness or something.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:54.319
It's whatever you want to call it, that maybe I don't want to use that word, but I don't have a better word for it.
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:59.759
When when I found out, I had already redesigned my whole life to be the working.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:00.880
The way that I want.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:06.079
And I think that initial story I told about negotiating was my first foray into that.
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:09.039
And so I don't think I could ever go back.
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:18.480
And even when I did have jobs like working for someone else, there were always things like being an academic, which is, you know, it's very, you know, it's almost made for people who are neurodivergent.
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:22.240
Maybe before that was the thing, because you're very much in control of how you work.
00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:22.720
Yeah.
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:27.920
Um, so I've always had a lot of control, even in the more traditional work roles.
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:39.519
And so I think it's, and it's hard if you don't have that much control, but I I think it's just you get to the point where it's like, I need to be able to control how I work and when I work and where I work and all of those things.
00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:46.079
And so I can't maybe change some things, but I can change everything around me so that those mistakes don't happen.
00:22:46.319 --> 00:23:01.359
So there's also the things like having air tags on all my stuff and having like I've just rearranged my wardrobe so that I have this drawer that's um the purse or the the bag filling station that has all the things that need to go in my bag when I leave.
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:03.119
And then I come home and put them back.
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:09.440
Because before I was have I would have 10 different bags that had all these different things, and I couldn't find where anything was.
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:14.079
And then there's this you know, decision fatigue about how where to come home and where to put the things.
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:16.880
And once everything has a place, it's organized.
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:23.279
So it's just going, what do I need that will work for me rather than trying to work in a way that is how I'm supposed to work?
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:30.079
You know, it might be unprofessional for me to do it, but if I'm gonna work at my best, I need I need it to be like that.
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:36.559
Otherwise, I'm just gonna be mean to myself and feel ashamed and embarrassed that I can't just do it like the normal people.
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:55.519
And I wonder within this sense, actually, the workplace work environment became more open for air quotes, unprofessionalism in the sense that we are invited to dec disclose these kind of things nowadays.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:07.119
Whereas back in the days it's like, oh, we are not interested in your diagnosis, it's your responsibility to get organized and the same rules apply for everyone.
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:13.119
And now it's more supporting, maybe just by the fact that we can speak about it.
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:15.200
Yes, so there is hope.
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:16.720
Yes, I think so.
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:17.759
Yeah.
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:27.519
You've experienced academia and you've experienced uh self-employment in an entrepreneur, and you have a business with your partner.
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:28.559
Yes.
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:39.519
I would be curious how you experienced this tension of professionalism, unprofessionalism throughout these different contexts.
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:41.200
That's a good question.
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:51.599
I think I didn't experience the nonprofit sector to be it was a lot more okay with being unprofessional, probably because there's a lot less money at stake.
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:57.440
So it's okay to show up to work in not like a three-piece suit, for example.
00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:57.920
Yeah.
00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:10.880
But I would say academia was the most interesting in terms of professionalism because it's very, very hierarchical and has lots of rules about how you have to behave.
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:17.920
And things like on your business card, you have to, and as your signature and your email, you have to write what degrees you've had.
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:21.519
And then there's codes for an abbreviation for each university.
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:29.200
So it's not just you say that you did an undergraduate, it has to be at the University of Toronto, and then that's you, Toronto, and then there's it's all of these things.
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:45.519
So it's your rank and your education, and all of these things matter so much, and your your your publications and which publications and what what journals, and how many, you know, what's your citation index and how many people have have referenced you.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:56.559
And so there's all of these things that just don't matter in the real world, but are very like codified as to what being a professional academic was.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:02.240
And I remember I started working for myself while I was an academic.
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:12.880
So I started doing like side side hustles, um, mostly because I wanted to something, it was not not as a business, but more of like a passion.
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:16.640
So that was when I started, I was doing research on Facebook, very serious stuff.
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:21.359
And that was when I started getting into games and play on the side, sort of like a mental health thing.
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:24.960
But that became became my full-time focus.
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:30.799
But I had people saying to me, you need to be a serious academic, you need to be more serious.
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:34.160
And that was really interesting because it's like, well, what does that mean?
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:39.119
And and one of the things was don't spend your time doing things like a TEDx talk.
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:40.720
That's not serious.
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:47.680
And then the university that this happened at a few years later sponsored TEDx, the TEDx that I spoke at.
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.559
And I walked in on two professors watching my talk and making fun of me.
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:56.640
But then one of them um asked for a reference from me.
00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:02.960
Um, well, he didn't actually, he put me down as a reference without asking me to speak at TEDx.
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:12.160
And so that was a very interesting experience because it I guess at the end of it, the point of it to me wasn't almost you need to be a more serious academic.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:18.799
It was more maybe you're a threat to us and we're gonna use the academic system to try and control you.
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:28.559
And when I looked back, I had not actually thought about it in that way, but I think that that it's almost like a way to like weaponize because it's very difficult to be a young woman in academia.
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:28.960
Yes.
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:32.160
In many places, but academia is very difficult for young women.
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:32.799
Yeah.
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:46.960
And it's interesting because I have the impression that the the threat of being called unprofessional, not serious, is very prominent also in the cockroach world, from what I heard.
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:57.839
And it is this it is this set of unspoken rules where nobody is actually telling you what's going on, but it's hanging there as a kind of yeah.
00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:01.200
In in education, it's called the hidden curriculum.
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:04.880
And so it's this idea that you get taught the hidden curriculum by your parents.
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:17.680
And so that's why a class and your, you know, ability to earn money in life is passed on because your parents teach you the things that you need to know to behave professionally or properly, right?
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:18.960
The rules of etiquette.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:28.559
So if you are going to university and you haven't been taught these things, you know, even how to like, you know, you go to a lot of conference banquets, right, as an academic.
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:31.200
So you have to know how to eat properly.
00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:31.519
Yeah.
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:43.200
So there's all of these things that we as humans use to signal to each other, you know, like what what you're the watch that you're wearing, what clothes you're wearing, all of these things.
00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:47.599
And so it, yeah, it's it's it's a way that we maintain that power.
00:28:47.920 --> 00:29:00.480
And if your parents don't teach you those, and that's why often you have it's the big deal when it's the first person in the family to go to university, because they have to overcome so much more than someone who's like their parents have gone to university, right?
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:02.960
Even just the idea, like I can do that, right?
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:05.119
If you can see them, you can be them.
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:09.680
And if you don't see them in your family, because it's scary and prohibitive.
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:15.200
There's all these, you know, you're worried about breaking those hidden curriculum rules.
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:15.839
Yeah.
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:21.119
And then potentially have parents who show you that it's okay to break some of those rules.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:21.759
Right.
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:35.279
Then it's yeah, okay to have a side interest in games and play for your mental health, and to do a TEDx talk, although it's not considered academic enough.
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:39.440
So to yeah, to build the confidence or at least the permission.
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:43.759
That didn't come from my parents, and I don't actually know where that came from.
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:58.000
Oh, I think I actually think that that I have a talk that I do about this, which is that there's some new research coming out that looks at how when you have ADHD, one of your superpowers, it's a double-edged sword, is you cannot not be curious.
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:03.440
Like you just have when you you curiosity is this thing that you have to follow.
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:08.000
And I think they call it a turbo curiosity in this research paper.
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:12.880
But it's this idea that when you become, and then sort of another way of looking at it is a hyperfixation.
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:17.119
So when you become curious about something, it's like you have to follow that thing.
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:19.519
So for me, it was the internet and then it was games.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:24.400
And I when I speak to kids and young people, I say I do the two things my parents hated me doing.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:27.759
It's just going on the internet and video games.
00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:33.440
But because it was so curious about these things, that was I had no plan, no strategy.
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:35.039
I'm a lot more strategic now.
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:43.359
But I just it was like, I'm gonna go to Australia to do a PhD because I wrote a paper about it because as an undergrad, because I was curious.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:47.680
And I looked back and it was like, why, why did I have like, where did that come from?
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:51.519
You don't write a paper as an undergrad on on the internet.
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:54.640
And this is 2003, 2004.
00:30:55.519 --> 00:31:02.319
And uh and yeah, luckily I had a professor who wanted to learn more about the internet and said, let's work together.
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:07.680
But it was all just sort of luck and me following this curiosity that got me to do these things.
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:20.319
And yeah, it wasn't the fear, the curiosity overcame the fear or the idea that you shouldn't present a paper, you shouldn't move to Australia, you shouldn't do all, you know, it's just like I need I'm obsessed with this thing.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:24.240
I need to, I need to to follow, I need to keep going down the rabbit hole.
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:24.960
Yeah.
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:28.319
No, yeah, out of academia, you have your own business.
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:54.480
How does your how do you give space to your I would call it quirkiness, with your various ideas and the inhibition or the creativity to do things differently while maintaining this professional image because you're in Western Australia, so it's uh a rather conservative environment, I would say.
00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:55.599
Yes.
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:57.680
Yes, that's an interesting one.
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:05.759
So I think it's it's it's turned into advan an advantage because I often get asked to come in to do the thing that's different.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:08.079
We want something different, that's the brief.
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:19.680
So it's kind of become the I guess unique song proposition of what I do is that I come in, I bring Lego, we talk about curiosity and play, it's all very interactive.
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:26.000
And it's something that I guess can be um tolerated for an hour, an hour and a half.
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:28.640
Sometimes we get up to a half day.
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:35.839
And I think that that wouldn't, I'm guessing here, but I don't know if that would actually work as a full-time thing in an organization.
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:47.519
But it's like a safe way to do something different that isn't um, you know, it still has the you know, I still have the academic background, we still have Lego serious play.
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:48.640
It has the word serious in it.
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.759
It was developed by two European business professors.
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.440
So it has all of the things that make it safe for people to say yes.
00:32:55.680 --> 00:33:02.319
And in the keynote that I do before we get into the interactive stuff, I talk about the research behind it and I talk about all the big companies that use it.
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:05.039
So to say, you know, we're not just gonna muck around here.
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:11.599
We're we're doing something that's backed by research and it's used by by big companies around the world.
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:18.400
And um I I did a talk last year, actually, it's early this year, was it early this year or late?
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:19.759
It was a few months ago.
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:21.680
I can't believe it's almost August.
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:28.799
Um yeah, so I think it was um in January, February, and I got a message.
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:40.079
So it was a it was a an event for recruiting professionals, employment professionals, and um at this big well-known brand in Melbourne.
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:48.319
And I got a message from one of the guys at the end on LinkedIn, and he said, I came to your event and I refused to participate.
00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:54.240
I didn't want to build anything with Lego because I was like, what is a bunch of serious professionals doing spending the afternoon playing with Lego?
00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:58.240
What could possibly be learned from this?
00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:04.720
And I went home and I thought about this, and I was like, what does this mean about me?
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:12.000
And now I'm curious about myself and I'm thinking about myself and where I might need to grow.
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:16.239
And he said, I don't know if this was your intention.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:18.960
This is your plan all along, but you did something.
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:22.320
And I asked him, I think he'd use the store, and he thankfully said yes.
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:43.920
But I think that that kind of result is even though it's you know it's coming in and it's it's safe, it's only for a half a day for a few hours, it still ticks the boxes for the organization, for the company, and I can still be a little bit transformative and you know, have powerful results for every individual because every person has their own thing that happens.
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:44.400
Yeah.
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:48.159
So it's I think it's like you have to meet people where they're at.
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:52.639
So I I am able to frame it in a way that goes, This is this is professional, it's safe.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:35:00.320
You're not doing something crazy, you're not doing something that is a waste of time, you're gonna do something that actually makes a difference.
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:00.800
Yeah.
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:08.639
And I think that's yeah, that's the happy, the happy niche that I found myself in.
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:11.199
And I think having a PhD probably helps as well.
00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:16.880
I was uh Yeah, I was about to say that, and I think it's also the experience that I had.
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:19.840
It's coming back to the false safety, right?
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:20.159
Yeah.
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:27.199
So we show them the PhD, it's a false safety, and then we can do the the unconventional things.
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:27.519
Uh huh.
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:27.840
Yes.
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:32.239
Yes.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:32.719
Yeah.
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:40.159
So you do have to provide the professional safety net for you to be quote unquote unprofessional inside that.
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:40.719
Yeah.
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:43.760
Because that's where you can do the things that really move the needle.
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:49.599
But what would be an unprofessional thing that you would still advise others to do?
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:55.280
Yeah, I mean, I think I think it's it's that is too.
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:58.639
I don't know, maybe it isn't is it unprofessional.
00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:03.039
I think the big one that keep I keep coming back to is that is trusting your intuition.
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:09.199
I think intuition is is one of those things that's kind of still unprofessional, but is moving to be more professional.
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:24.960
But I've I I've had a few conversations and situations recently where I've been told one thing, um, like you can't charge that by someone who, you know, has a lot of experience in the industry and should know, you know, what it would know.
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:28.159
And then um me going, I think I can charge double.
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:31.280
And then doing it repeatedly.
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:47.440
But it was because I it was that feeling like that trust of my my intuition saying that I could do that, rather than you know, trusting the professional person, you know, the person who knows more, who's the you know, the the speaking business professional.
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:56.159
So yeah, trusting your gut, because I think that that was I had my curiosity, but I ignored my intuition for a very long time.
00:36:56.320 --> 00:37:02.320
And it's been coming back to that being able to trust my intuition and really just go, okay, I don't know why.
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:05.360
I don't know why I'm being called to do this thing.
00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:08.079
Yeah, but stuff happens and it's magic.
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.079
Thank you so much, Kate.
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:12.559
My pleasure.
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:15.679
This was a conversation without the script.
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:16.960
Now it's your turn.
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:20.960
I'm Miriam Hapmas, and this has been unprofessionalism.
00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:20.000
What happens if we did have to tear off the mask of professionalism?
00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:28.239
This is a professionalism.
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I was at South by Southwest in 2007, and Mark Zuckerberg was there to do a keynote.
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And I went to a Facebook party and had a chat with him back in the day, as you do.
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Oh wow.
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And asked him about this.
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And I said, now that you see that it's causing all these problems, are you going to change the design so that people can manage their different contexts differently?
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And he said, no, that was his intention all along.
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And that he believed that if you're different in different aspects of your life, you're lying.
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And it completely changed my PhD.
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And I looked into how Facebook was pushing people to be real.
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Kate, welcome to the show.
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Thanks for having me.
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I'm really excited about this.
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Me too.
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You've called yourself professionally unprofessional.
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So I am more than curious to hear about your moment when you've been unprofessional.
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So I think I think back to the first time that I was professionally unprofessional because I think it kind of set the tone for the rest of my life.
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But before I answer that, I I did my undergrad in philosophy.
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And so that's all about the first thing is you have to define your terms.
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And so what do we mean by unprofessional?
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So for me, it's almost there's a lot of aspects too.
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But I think the core one is that it's something where we're saying to be safe.
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It's like we're gonna do this to be safe.
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It's not gonna rock the boat.
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It's you know, wearing the right clothes, doing the right thing, acting in the right way.
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And it's the safe way, but I don't think it's always the right way.
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And I think actually, well, we can get into this, but I think often it's like a false safety that gets in the way of actually getting into true vulnerability and connection and who we really are.
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So it's a false safety.
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And so I think back to the first time that I did this, and this was when I was um living in Canada and I I was in my first real job, and I had the invitation to move to Australia to do my PhD in internet studies, which spoiler, I ended up doing, but my work, the place I was working at didn't want me to leave and wanted me to stay or wanted me to keep working remotely, and I really just didn't want to do that.
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And so then I did this thing that was really scary, which was I just thought of the number that, like, how would I want to work?
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And what would it, what would be the amount of money that would make it okay for me to go, okay.
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I'm happy to do this.
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And so at the time, I just picked this crazy number and said, I'm only gonna do it this way, I'm only gonna do it on internet relay chat.
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And this is my terms.
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And then they said no, and I said, Okay.
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And then they came back and said yes.
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You came back to yes, yes, and so I basically got to move to Australia and have this like really minimal part-time job that I was to able to move the needle for them, work in the way that I wanted.
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And then it's just become a thing that's really, I think, inspired, yeah, the rest of my life, which is to do things that are scary.
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And and I think people would tell you not to do that.
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You know, it's don't don't do that.
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You just accept the lower offer or don't ask for that, don't do the the thing that especially I think there's a gender thing probably in there, it's a young woman as well.
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Yep.
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Just wondering what I'm diagnosed neurodivergent as well, right?
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Yeah, yeah.
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So everything else, everybody else is telling you don't do that, everybody else is telling you um not to do that thing.
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And yeah, listen to your only gut and your own advice and what feels true to you, and um, yeah, be true to yourself.
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And it's interesting, you're the second one sharing such a story on the podcast to putting out a number that is ridiculously high and then getting a yes for it.
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Yeah.
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Which me makes me now think, why are we not doing this more often?
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And maybe, as you said, maybe men do this actually more often.
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Yes.
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Well, my one of my um business, I wouldn't say business guru, she's more like my business superhero, Cindy Gallup, who her tagline on LinkedIn is on the Michael Baethe business, I like to blow shit up.
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And she's this like fabulous former ad exec who is kind of living her amazing, fabulous life, jet setting around the world.
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She's I think in her 60s now, and it's just how I want to be when I get a bit older.
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But she says that you should ask for the amount that the the highest amount that you can ask for without laughing.
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That's just such good advice with that playfulness in there, right?
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It makes it a bit of a game, right?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So where did the fear come from for you?
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Well, I think I think initially the fear was overridden.
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And maybe that was the cheat that got me into doing it.
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The fear was overridden, which was that I actually didn't want to do the role.
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I I was done and I wanted to move on and start my academic career.
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And so it was kind of like, I actually don't care what the outcome is.
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So if I ask and they say no, like that's still a fine outcome for me.
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Like, you know, and they did say no, right?
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And then when I, you know, I called their bluff, or they called mine bluff, I guess.
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And so the fear was was, I think normally it would be um, you know, fear of missing out, or you know, if I don't ask for a low number, they're gonna say no.
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And you know, that that's like that's a scarcity mentality, I think.
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But that I think keeps us playing small.
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And it's not just financial.
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I mean, that's kind of you know the way the world works, the way that we the world that we live in is that's where we kind of measure it.
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But it's I think it's all sorts of asking that we don't do because maybe there's a fear of being disappointed.
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So you're trying to avoid being disappointed.
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Yeah.
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Fear of rejection.
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Yeah.
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And maybe also the reputation, what if they see me as greedy?
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Yeah, or you know, high maintenance.
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I've been called a high maintenance before, which is a very dangerous thing.
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Not the difficult one.
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Oh, you think you're special?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It's it's incredible with um how much of these uh limiting beliefs are called out when it comes to money and these kind of negotiation situations.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And you define professionalism as false safety.
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Yeah.
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So what do you mean by that?
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And what is then unprofessionalism?
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Well, I think it's sort of like when I think of unprofessionalism, it's or professionalism, it's that you are, you know, I think about conversations with my mom who was like an 80s and 90s power woman.
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Um, you know, like you have to wear a power suit and you can't get a tattoo and you have to do this, and it's there's all of these rules about how you have to be.
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And I was like, I'm gonna dye my hair and get tattoos and get piercings and do all the things because I don't, if that's the the cost of giving all that up who I really want to be and expressing myself, if that's the what I have to give up to do those things, I don't want to do those things.
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But then somehow it's okay to do those things now.
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Right?
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You meet 50 year olds who've just got their first eyebrow piercing.
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So it's it's it's interesting, it's it's helpful that the world has shifted.
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But it's, you know, it's all these things, and like, why does it matter?
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Do those impact you having a job?
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So it's like dressing professionally, acting professionally, you know, having an office that's professional, working in a professional way.
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Because and it's almost like a way of saying it's that's how it's always been done.
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So that's that's how we have to do it.
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Yeah.
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So I think COVID helped to change a lot of that as well.
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What makes you say but it's well, because it was it forced us to, right?
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You know, it forced us to go.
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Well, maybe we're gonna be unprofessional by working from home, and our kids might be, you know, unprofessional in the sense of being messy, being unpolished, you know, showing your human side, showing your real side, showing your personal side, the things that can be vulnerable.
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Cause that's I, you know, if you think going back to that question about safety, it's it's a way to to put on these this mask so that you're not actually showing that part of you that might be different or that can be judged.
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And, you know, that you think of the office, the beige office and the beige suits, and everybody looks the same and dresses the same, and you know, the archetype.
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And it still happens.
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I've gone into it, you know, with clients and some of them, it's still like mad men in there.
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And it's it's a bit wild to me that has, you know, never been interested in functioning in that space.
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But yeah, it's a way to almost like get people, and maybe it's a way to also ask people to be not confronting, right?
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Because it's easier if someone just shows up in a less confronting way and maybe doesn't show up in with the messiness of life, or you know, the big thing now I think is around mental health and neurodivergence, right?
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It's easier if you don't bring all of that.
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I need an accommodation or I need flexibility for being a parent, which is again COVID.
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COVID has uh helped us with that.
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And then the professionalism helps us to structure to make something predictable, to know how it will function, and then everything deviating from that, especially in your divergence, doesn't fit in there.
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Yeah.
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Because it's a bit unpredictable.
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Yeah.
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And it's, I think, also along those lines of the public and the private.
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So looking at like if you and you know, thinking back to maybe when that really started to um evolve around that thinking about the home is for the feminine, for the woman at home, thinking the 50s in the US.
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So did I my my research on Facebook looked at privacy and looking at what menial privacy was, and that's very much around what is the home and what is outside of the home and what is private and what is public, professional, unprofessional.
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So it's it's I think there's that gender even inscribed in there, right?
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Is you wear the suit, you're the man, you go to work, you come home, your wife does this, you keep that stuff quiet, you don't say what happens in the house, the woman stays at home.
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And so even there, yeah.
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Do you think then that social media and maybe Facebook in particular, and I also see it creeping in in LinkedIn, helped to actually mix up the private and the professional and helps us maybe does it help us to become more unprofessional, more real, more ourselves, more daring, or does it even push us more into this competimentalization, if this is English?
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I I love this because I've not actually made this connection before, but looking at my so my PhD looked at Facebook when it was back when it was cool and it was becoming a force in society, and looking at how people use it and navigate privacy.
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And what that really meant to people was not, you know, is my data secure, but what is being shared about me?
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How am I managing my identity?
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And what I assumed in my research when I, because I started it in 2006, so Facebook was two years old at the time.
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So this is 20 years ago, right?
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So yeah, it's crazy to think we've had it for that long, but it is it has changed and it has changed us.
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But back then, the way that people used Facebook was very different than how it is now.
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And I assumed that it was designed in this way that was almost like I've seen there's an article called Autistic Social Social Software, I think it's by Dana Boyd, that talks about how because there's a like a higher percentage of neurodivergence in Silicon Valley, that the way that they designed social interactions is more reflective of that.
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So I had made this assumption that the way that Facebook was designed was maybe because of that.
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So back, and this is so funny and quaint to talk about now, but back then, originally Facebook was for college kids.
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It wasn't for everybody.
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So it's the way you behave when you're in college, right?
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It's accepted, but it doesn't usually go on public record forever.
00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:21.519
So when Facebook started to open up and become more of a public thing and even professional, you started to have situations where people would be fired for their behavior on Facebook.
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Or one of the people in my research, she didn't drink ever.
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And then there was a photo of her pretending to drink this beer bottle, like chugging beer as a joke, and her landlord saw it and then was like questioning her about it.
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So the the term in academia or the research term is called context collapse.
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So it's the idea that normally in every aspect of life we have different ways of behaving, and that's normal.
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And so Facebook came and collapsed that.
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And my assumption was, oh, this must be just because they've haven't really thought about how people, most people behave.
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So I was at South by Southwest in 2007, and Mark Zuckerberg was there to do a keynote.
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And I went to a Facebook party and had had a chat with him back in the day, as you do.
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Oh, wow.
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And asked him about this.
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And I said, you know, now that you see that it's causing all these problems, are you going to change, change the design so that people can manage their different contexts differently?
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And he said, No, that was that was his intention all along.
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And that he believed that if you're different in different aspects of your life, you're lying.
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And so this completely blew my mind because I just assumed it was a mistake.
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And no, he was like, nope, this is intentional.
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And it completely changed my PhD.
00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:41.120
And I looked into how Facebook was pushing people to be real.
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So at the time on the internet, people were using handles, fake names, usernames, playing with their identity.
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And they decided that they wanted everybody to be their real selves and be the same in every aspect of their life.
00:13:53.679 --> 00:14:08.720
So what happened was is you went from the internet being this place where everybody is playing with their identity and you know, being unprofessional to a place where we all just perform our perfect selves, being professional, right?
00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:09.519
Yeah.
00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:13.360
It sounds almost as if the intentions were really nice.
00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:18.480
What if we could be the same person and be accepted for being this person all across?
00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:23.120
It's called a radical transparency, is the philosophy.
00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:24.240
Yeah.
00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:27.519
And somehow, yeah, this didn't work.
00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:31.840
Um, but it blew the lines between the personal and the professional.
00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:41.759
And I remember you telling me that you gave a keynote on what you learned about business from dating.
00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:43.919
This comes to mind.
00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:48.720
Yes, because it's similar where you where you totally blurred the lines.
00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:49.440
Yes.
00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:58.480
So this is at the Lego Series Play, the International Lego Series Play conference in Denmark at Lego Land, which I think is also another kind of unprofessional thing, right?
00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:04.879
We're going to a theme park for kids and having a business conference about a children's toy.
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:05.919
So there's that.
00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:31.279
And so I went there to talk about my use of Lego Series Play, which is a serious use of Lego that we can get into, but um my adaptation of it for connection and dating and what I learned from that and how you can actually make Lego serious play better by building in more trust and safety and curiosity so that it becomes a better tool for connection.
00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:32.240
Um so it is, yeah.
00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:37.519
So I'm working on a book now about that, about lessons from dating that you can apply to business and vice versa.
00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:42.879
So, what is one lesson that you that you learn from dating that you would apply to business?
00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:46.559
I think it's it's a combined one.
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:50.720
It's believe what people how people tell you they're gonna be.
00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:54.080
So like believe first impressions.
00:15:54.639 --> 00:16:11.039
So if you have a client who's behaving in a certain way at the beginning and you're looking at doing a longer-term engagement with them, and you know, maybe they ask for too much or don't respect you, or don't show up to the meetings, or everything's done by committee.
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:12.960
That's how it's gonna be the rest of the time.
00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:14.799
It's not gonna get any better, it'll get worse.
00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:16.000
Yeah, if anything.
00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:19.279
I would love to spend a moment longer there.
00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:24.399
Because it's I think it beautifully fits into the theme of unprofessionalism.
00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:27.279
Where it's all about first impressions.
00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:38.399
That's why people wear suits, that's why they're all these unwritten rules that you we're so scared to overstep or to ignore.
00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:49.120
Where do you then find the where is space for being more human, more authentic, more courageous, more different, more neurospicy?
00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:51.519
If the first impression is so important.
00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:58.080
I'm not sure that they're at odds because I really like working with neurodivergent people.
00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:01.919
So you can you can often tell if someone else is neurodivergent.
00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:05.440
And so that's also that's a good that's a good first impression for me.
00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:15.599
But then it also means that I might be more accommodating to know, okay, if that person's neurodivergent, then there's other things we need to do to make sure that the meeting happens on time.
00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:25.279
For example, so is it they're say late to the meeting because they disrespect you, or is that are they late to the meeting because they're neurodivergent have ADHD?
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.839
Or it's part of the culture where everyone is just a few minutes late.
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:30.079
Yeah.
00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:39.759
And then okay, so I reinterpret your your finding to it's even more important to be real on the first impression.
00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.440
Because if you fake it, yes, yes, it's like, yeah, it is.
00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:45.680
I was about to say, oh, it's like at the first date.
00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:47.839
Yes, that's exactly what you said, right?
00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:55.680
If you you don't want to fake it and then end up in a relationship with the other person expecting you to be someone who you're actually not comfortable being.
00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:56.480
Exactly.
00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:56.960
Yes.
00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:02.079
So I found out that I have ADHD maybe three or four three years ago, two or three years ago.
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:23.359
And just being able to say that and say that to other people who may also be neurodivergent has been a huge relief because it makes it easier for me to not be so hard on myself, but just to go, if I've made this mistake, because I make mistakes all the time, like little mistakes, it's because of you know, I have ADHD.
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:28.240
So I think we can make a often if it's another ADHD person, we can just laugh about it.
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:33.119
So it's you know, it's just being clear that I'm not disrespecting you, but this is just how I operate.
00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.079
And, you know, if that doesn't work, then that's okay, right?
00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:45.440
Like you don't have to work, and that's often I want to have a chat with people first to find out is it a good fit, not just for me, but for you, for both of us, to see if that's a good fit.
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:46.960
And if it's not, that's totally fine.
00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:59.200
Yeah, and how to then find workarounds because a mistake here and there might not be a problem, or it might be a big one, because it infuses this uncertainty, and then how can we work around?
00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:09.279
Yeah, and it's interesting because so the making mistakes is another beautiful example for professional unprofessionalism, right?
00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:11.680
Yes, because mistakes are very unprofessional, right?
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:14.319
Yeah, and especially if it's reckless.
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:15.359
Yes.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:27.440
And then if you make a mistake because you thought it was right, so you actually put intention in and you thought it through and it was still a mistake, is it then still unprofessional?
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:28.880
I'm not sure.
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:29.440
Right?
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:31.759
Or if you're it's like a philosophy question, right?
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:40.720
Yeah, and if your condition got you to make mistakes, um, because your brain functions differently, is this then unprofessional?
00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:54.720
I mean, the the challenge, I guess, and that maybe the what the nut of the question is is because I I don't see, for example, ADHD as like it's not I don't see it as like this, it's like a benchmark for me to understand how I function.
00:19:54.880 --> 00:20:01.920
And so instead of going using it as an excuse for everything, it's going, okay, well, if this is the way that I function, then I need to do these things.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:10.640
And I'm gonna have reminders and alarms and all of these systems to support me not making mistakes or not showing up late.
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:17.680
And so I think it's really, you know, people, there's I think not everybody wants to get diagnosed, not everybody finds it helpful.
00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:21.440
There's all many reasons why to do it or to not.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:34.720
And I think that for me, it was like a way, and a lot hearing this from a lot of people who, a lot of other women who've gotten late diagnosis like me, often because they've they've met me, and I found it out because of the Lego series play community.
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:42.960
So it's like we're all kind of going, oh, if you're like that, then you know, maybe there's there's something else going on and explains, explains myself.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:49.119
But it's there's a choice, it's like a way to go, okay, am I gonna just say this is how I am and that's it, or is it a gross thing?
00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:53.200
Because I've done, I've tried to have events for people with ADHD.
00:20:53.519 --> 00:21:05.759
And the problem is that you get people in various stages of um their their journey with it, and it doesn't really work for a variety of reasons, and it makes me really stressed out as an event organizer.
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:20.559
So I think it's yeah, there's a fine balance between disclosing and saying where you're at, but also taking responsibility to do but also like you know, all just doing your best all the time and not yeah, it's a it's a very fine line.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:33.920
Yeah, because I think yes, what brings up is how do you disclose and how do you treat, are you responsible and have agency in it, or do you take it as an excuse?
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:40.240
I th well, I think there are it's it's sort of like there's things that I can't change, but there's things I can make systems around.
00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:41.039
Yeah.
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:49.759
So I would say that, you know, before I even got my I don't even like to use the word diagnosis because it's not like I have an illness or something.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:54.319
It's whatever you want to call it, that maybe I don't want to use that word, but I don't have a better word for it.
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:59.759
When when I found out, I had already redesigned my whole life to be the working.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:00.880
The way that I want.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:06.079
And I think that initial story I told about negotiating was my first foray into that.
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:09.039
And so I don't think I could ever go back.
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:18.480
And even when I did have jobs like working for someone else, there were always things like being an academic, which is, you know, it's very, you know, it's almost made for people who are neurodivergent.
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:22.240
Maybe before that was the thing, because you're very much in control of how you work.
00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:22.720
Yeah.
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:27.920
Um, so I've always had a lot of control, even in the more traditional work roles.
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:39.519
And so I think it's, and it's hard if you don't have that much control, but I I think it's just you get to the point where it's like, I need to be able to control how I work and when I work and where I work and all of those things.
00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:46.079
And so I can't maybe change some things, but I can change everything around me so that those mistakes don't happen.
00:22:46.319 --> 00:23:01.359
So there's also the things like having air tags on all my stuff and having like I've just rearranged my wardrobe so that I have this drawer that's um the purse or the the bag filling station that has all the things that need to go in my bag when I leave.
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:03.119
And then I come home and put them back.
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:09.440
Because before I was have I would have 10 different bags that had all these different things, and I couldn't find where anything was.
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:14.079
And then there's this you know, decision fatigue about how where to come home and where to put the things.
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:16.880
And once everything has a place, it's organized.
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:23.279
So it's just going, what do I need that will work for me rather than trying to work in a way that is how I'm supposed to work?
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:30.079
You know, it might be unprofessional for me to do it, but if I'm gonna work at my best, I need I need it to be like that.
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:36.559
Otherwise, I'm just gonna be mean to myself and feel ashamed and embarrassed that I can't just do it like the normal people.
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:55.519
And I wonder within this sense, actually, the workplace work environment became more open for air quotes, unprofessionalism in the sense that we are invited to dec disclose these kind of things nowadays.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:07.119
Whereas back in the days it's like, oh, we are not interested in your diagnosis, it's your responsibility to get organized and the same rules apply for everyone.
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:13.119
And now it's more supporting, maybe just by the fact that we can speak about it.
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:15.200
Yes, so there is hope.
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:16.720
Yes, I think so.
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:17.759
Yeah.
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:27.519
You've experienced academia and you've experienced uh self-employment in an entrepreneur, and you have a business with your partner.
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:28.559
Yes.
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:39.519
I would be curious how you experienced this tension of professionalism, unprofessionalism throughout these different contexts.
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:41.200
That's a good question.
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:51.599
I think I didn't experience the nonprofit sector to be it was a lot more okay with being unprofessional, probably because there's a lot less money at stake.
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:57.440
So it's okay to show up to work in not like a three-piece suit, for example.
00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:57.920
Yeah.
00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:10.880
But I would say academia was the most interesting in terms of professionalism because it's very, very hierarchical and has lots of rules about how you have to behave.
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:17.920
And things like on your business card, you have to, and as your signature and your email, you have to write what degrees you've had.
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:21.519
And then there's codes for an abbreviation for each university.
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:29.200
So it's not just you say that you did an undergraduate, it has to be at the University of Toronto, and then that's you, Toronto, and then there's it's all of these things.
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:45.519
So it's your rank and your education, and all of these things matter so much, and your your your publications and which publications and what what journals, and how many, you know, what's your citation index and how many people have have referenced you.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:56.559
And so there's all of these things that just don't matter in the real world, but are very like codified as to what being a professional academic was.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:02.240
And I remember I started working for myself while I was an academic.
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:12.880
So I started doing like side side hustles, um, mostly because I wanted to something, it was not not as a business, but more of like a passion.
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:16.640
So that was when I started, I was doing research on Facebook, very serious stuff.
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:21.359
And that was when I started getting into games and play on the side, sort of like a mental health thing.
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:24.960
But that became became my full-time focus.
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:30.799
But I had people saying to me, you need to be a serious academic, you need to be more serious.
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:34.160
And that was really interesting because it's like, well, what does that mean?
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:39.119
And and one of the things was don't spend your time doing things like a TEDx talk.
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:40.720
That's not serious.
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:47.680
And then the university that this happened at a few years later sponsored TEDx, the TEDx that I spoke at.
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.559
And I walked in on two professors watching my talk and making fun of me.
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:56.640
But then one of them um asked for a reference from me.
00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:02.960
Um, well, he didn't actually, he put me down as a reference without asking me to speak at TEDx.
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:12.160
And so that was a very interesting experience because it I guess at the end of it, the point of it to me wasn't almost you need to be a more serious academic.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:18.799
It was more maybe you're a threat to us and we're gonna use the academic system to try and control you.
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:28.559
And when I looked back, I had not actually thought about it in that way, but I think that that it's almost like a way to like weaponize because it's very difficult to be a young woman in academia.
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:28.960
Yes.
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:32.160
In many places, but academia is very difficult for young women.
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:32.799
Yeah.
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:46.960
And it's interesting because I have the impression that the the threat of being called unprofessional, not serious, is very prominent also in the cockroach world, from what I heard.
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:57.839
And it is this it is this set of unspoken rules where nobody is actually telling you what's going on, but it's hanging there as a kind of yeah.
00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:01.200
In in education, it's called the hidden curriculum.
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:04.880
And so it's this idea that you get taught the hidden curriculum by your parents.
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:17.680
And so that's why a class and your, you know, ability to earn money in life is passed on because your parents teach you the things that you need to know to behave professionally or properly, right?
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:18.960
The rules of etiquette.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:28.559
So if you are going to university and you haven't been taught these things, you know, even how to like, you know, you go to a lot of conference banquets, right, as an academic.
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:31.200
So you have to know how to eat properly.
00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:31.519
Yeah.
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:43.200
So there's all of these things that we as humans use to signal to each other, you know, like what what you're the watch that you're wearing, what clothes you're wearing, all of these things.
00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:47.599
And so it, yeah, it's it's it's a way that we maintain that power.
00:28:47.920 --> 00:29:00.480
And if your parents don't teach you those, and that's why often you have it's the big deal when it's the first person in the family to go to university, because they have to overcome so much more than someone who's like their parents have gone to university, right?
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:02.960
Even just the idea, like I can do that, right?
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:05.119
If you can see them, you can be them.
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:09.680
And if you don't see them in your family, because it's scary and prohibitive.
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:15.200
There's all these, you know, you're worried about breaking those hidden curriculum rules.
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:15.839
Yeah.
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:21.119
And then potentially have parents who show you that it's okay to break some of those rules.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:21.759
Right.
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:35.279
Then it's yeah, okay to have a side interest in games and play for your mental health, and to do a TEDx talk, although it's not considered academic enough.
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:39.440
So to yeah, to build the confidence or at least the permission.
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:43.759
That didn't come from my parents, and I don't actually know where that came from.
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:58.000
Oh, I think I actually think that that I have a talk that I do about this, which is that there's some new research coming out that looks at how when you have ADHD, one of your superpowers, it's a double-edged sword, is you cannot not be curious.
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:03.440
Like you just have when you you curiosity is this thing that you have to follow.
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:08.000
And I think they call it a turbo curiosity in this research paper.
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:12.880
But it's this idea that when you become, and then sort of another way of looking at it is a hyperfixation.
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:17.119
So when you become curious about something, it's like you have to follow that thing.
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:19.519
So for me, it was the internet and then it was games.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:24.400
And I when I speak to kids and young people, I say I do the two things my parents hated me doing.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:27.759
It's just going on the internet and video games.
00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:33.440
But because it was so curious about these things, that was I had no plan, no strategy.
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:35.039
I'm a lot more strategic now.
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:43.359
But I just it was like, I'm gonna go to Australia to do a PhD because I wrote a paper about it because as an undergrad, because I was curious.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:47.680
And I looked back and it was like, why, why did I have like, where did that come from?
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:51.519
You don't write a paper as an undergrad on on the internet.
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:54.640
And this is 2003, 2004.
00:30:55.519 --> 00:31:02.319
And uh and yeah, luckily I had a professor who wanted to learn more about the internet and said, let's work together.
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:07.680
But it was all just sort of luck and me following this curiosity that got me to do these things.
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:20.319
And yeah, it wasn't the fear, the curiosity overcame the fear or the idea that you shouldn't present a paper, you shouldn't move to Australia, you shouldn't do all, you know, it's just like I need I'm obsessed with this thing.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:24.240
I need to, I need to to follow, I need to keep going down the rabbit hole.
00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:24.960
Yeah.
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:28.319
No, yeah, out of academia, you have your own business.
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:54.480
How does your how do you give space to your I would call it quirkiness, with your various ideas and the inhibition or the creativity to do things differently while maintaining this professional image because you're in Western Australia, so it's uh a rather conservative environment, I would say.
00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:55.599
Yes.
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:57.680
Yes, that's an interesting one.
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:05.759
So I think it's it's it's turned into advan an advantage because I often get asked to come in to do the thing that's different.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:08.079
We want something different, that's the brief.
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:19.680
So it's kind of become the I guess unique song proposition of what I do is that I come in, I bring Lego, we talk about curiosity and play, it's all very interactive.
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:26.000
And it's something that I guess can be um tolerated for an hour, an hour and a half.
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:28.640
Sometimes we get up to a half day.
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:35.839
And I think that that wouldn't, I'm guessing here, but I don't know if that would actually work as a full-time thing in an organization.
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:47.519
But it's like a safe way to do something different that isn't um, you know, it still has the you know, I still have the academic background, we still have Lego serious play.
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:48.640
It has the word serious in it.
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.759
It was developed by two European business professors.
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.440
So it has all of the things that make it safe for people to say yes.
00:32:55.680 --> 00:33:02.319
And in the keynote that I do before we get into the interactive stuff, I talk about the research behind it and I talk about all the big companies that use it.
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:05.039
So to say, you know, we're not just gonna muck around here.
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:11.599
We're we're doing something that's backed by research and it's used by by big companies around the world.
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:18.400
And um I I did a talk last year, actually, it's early this year, was it early this year or late?
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:19.759
It was a few months ago.
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:21.680
I can't believe it's almost August.
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:28.799
Um yeah, so I think it was um in January, February, and I got a message.
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:40.079
So it was a it was a an event for recruiting professionals, employment professionals, and um at this big well-known brand in Melbourne.
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:48.319
And I got a message from one of the guys at the end on LinkedIn, and he said, I came to your event and I refused to participate.
00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:54.240
I didn't want to build anything with Lego because I was like, what is a bunch of serious professionals doing spending the afternoon playing with Lego?
00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:58.240
What could possibly be learned from this?
00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:04.720
And I went home and I thought about this, and I was like, what does this mean about me?
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:12.000
And now I'm curious about myself and I'm thinking about myself and where I might need to grow.
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:16.239
And he said, I don't know if this was your intention.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:18.960
This is your plan all along, but you did something.
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:22.320
And I asked him, I think he'd use the store, and he thankfully said yes.
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:43.920
But I think that that kind of result is even though it's you know it's coming in and it's it's safe, it's only for a half a day for a few hours, it still ticks the boxes for the organization, for the company, and I can still be a little bit transformative and you know, have powerful results for every individual because every person has their own thing that happens.
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:44.400
Yeah.
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:48.159
So it's I think it's like you have to meet people where they're at.
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:52.639
So I I am able to frame it in a way that goes, This is this is professional, it's safe.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:35:00.320
You're not doing something crazy, you're not doing something that is a waste of time, you're gonna do something that actually makes a difference.
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:00.800
Yeah.
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:08.639
And I think that's yeah, that's the happy, the happy niche that I found myself in.
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:11.199
And I think having a PhD probably helps as well.
00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:16.880
I was uh Yeah, I was about to say that, and I think it's also the experience that I had.
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:19.840
It's coming back to the false safety, right?
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:20.159
Yeah.
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:27.199
So we show them the PhD, it's a false safety, and then we can do the the unconventional things.
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:27.519
Uh huh.
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:27.840
Yes.
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:32.239
Yes.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:32.719
Yeah.
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:40.159
So you do have to provide the professional safety net for you to be quote unquote unprofessional inside that.
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:40.719
Yeah.
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:43.760
Because that's where you can do the things that really move the needle.
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:49.599
But what would be an unprofessional thing that you would still advise others to do?
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:55.280
Yeah, I mean, I think I think it's it's that is too.
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:58.639
I don't know, maybe it isn't is it unprofessional.
00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:03.039
I think the big one that keep I keep coming back to is that is trusting your intuition.
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:09.199
I think intuition is is one of those things that's kind of still unprofessional, but is moving to be more professional.
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:24.960
But I've I I've had a few conversations and situations recently where I've been told one thing, um, like you can't charge that by someone who, you know, has a lot of experience in the industry and should know, you know, what it would know.
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:28.159
And then um me going, I think I can charge double.
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:31.280
And then doing it repeatedly.
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:47.440
But it was because I it was that feeling like that trust of my my intuition saying that I could do that, rather than you know, trusting the professional person, you know, the person who knows more, who's the you know, the the speaking business professional.
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:56.159
So yeah, trusting your gut, because I think that that was I had my curiosity, but I ignored my intuition for a very long time.
00:36:56.320 --> 00:37:02.320
And it's been coming back to that being able to trust my intuition and really just go, okay, I don't know why.
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:05.360
I don't know why I'm being called to do this thing.
00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:08.079
Yeah, but stuff happens and it's magic.
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.079
Thank you so much, Kate.
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:12.559
My pleasure.
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:15.679
This was a conversation without the script.
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:16.960
Now it's your turn.
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:20.960
I'm Miriam Hapmas, and this has been unprofessionalism.
