WEBVTT
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Now, I've said before that Dr.
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Weston A.
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Price's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration is the most important book on human health and nutrition ever written.
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Full stop.
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It is an incredible study which spanned multiple years and multiple continents.
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Dr.
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Weston A.
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Price, a Canadian-born dentist living in Cleveland, attempted to get to the root cause behind the rapid decline in human health in the modern world of the 1930s.
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And while many leading scientists of the day favored race mixing as the explanation behind the rise in cavities, mouth breathing, and developmental delays in children, Price was convinced that nutrition was to blame, and specifically a movement away from real whole foods, which humanity had relied on for all of recorded history, to the industrially processed, nutrient poor foods relied on by so many of the 1930s.
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Dr.
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Price devised an ingenious study in which he attempted to find people of the same or similar genetic stock, but who were following two different diets.
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Those following a traditional diet, what might be described as a real, whole foods, nutrient dense diet, compared with those following a modern, industrially processed diet of the 1930s, and then assess, measure, and document the different health outcomes between the two groups.
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And literally everywhere he went, the results were the same.
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Those following their traditional diets, consisting of real whole foods, enjoyed robust health, excellent teeth, wide dental arches.
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Members of the communities who had transitioned to the quote modern Western diet of processed white flowers, jams, canned vegetables and seed oils, the exact opposite.
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Terrible teeth, narrow dental archers, and mouth breathers with poor physical development.
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And words can't do these results justice.
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Unfortunately for us, they don't need to.
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Dr.
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Price and his wife took some fifteen thousand photos as they traveled to some twelve regions across the globe, from Peru to Alaska, Central Africa to the Swiss Alps.
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And the pictures are truly worth a thousand words.
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The difference between the two groups is so stark, so unbelievable, it's honestly hard to describe in words.
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I've yet to find a person who has read the work of doctor Weston A.
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Price, who's not been moved in the direction of real, whole, nutrient dense foods.
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The photographic evidence is just too compelling.
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Now part of the reason why this book is so incredible, and that I can say definitively that it will never be replicated is because of the unique time period in which Price and his wife performed their work, the 1930s, a time in which two revolutionary technologies, the portable personal camera, commercial airline travel, made Price's incredible work possible for the first time in history.
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Now at the same time, the forces of globalization and the spread of the modern Western diet and lifestyle essentially served as a ticking time bomb set to destroy the long history of traditional diets, thus presenting this incredible, short-lived window of time in which a study like Price's could be performed.
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Price was the right person at the right time with the right technology, an incredible trifecta, and therefore this study will never be replicated.
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Whether you love the work of Dr.
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Weston A.
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Price or you disagree with his conclusions 100%, this book is for you.
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This is the most important book written on human health and nutrition ever.
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There is a reason this book has been in print for a hundred years, and it will be in print for a hundred more.
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His work has inspired many people to let food be thy medicine, including the creation of the Western A Price Foundation, an organization committed to continuing his legacy, sharing his message, and promoting real, nutrient-dense whole foods.
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Foods like raw milk and butter, cod liver oil, fermented foods, the importance of animal-based foods, including organ meats, all ideas associated with the name Dr.
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Weston A.
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Price, and ideas which are seeing a surge in interest today.
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But here's the thing.
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After reading Price, after actually reading nutrition and physical degeneration and seeing what Price said versus what people say Price said, I can't help but notice there are some differences, and we're going to get into them today.
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If you're unfamiliar with the name Dr.
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Weston A.
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Price, we're going to remedy that, and you're in the right place.
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But even if you love the work of Dr.
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Price, you know his work, or at least you think you know his work, you're going to want to stick around because you may be in for a surprise.
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With that, I'd like to welcome you to another episode of Unconditional with Nilby Schickle.
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It's great to be back.
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We had a couple weeks in a row of super nerd episodes in which we went deep into individual randomized controlled studies, which I believe are not only fascinating, but also important to understanding some of the claims that get thrown around in health and fitness circles.
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Calorie is a calorie.
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Exercise doesn't help you lose weight.
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And if you've missed those episodes or they sound interesting, okay, definitely check those out.
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I had a lot of fun with them and I'm happy with how they turned out.
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But I did promise that we'd shift gears this week, and we will.
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But apparently enough people like the nerd stuff because I see quite a number of additional downloads and new listeners.
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So that's great.
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Welcome to you, and it's good to have you.
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But today we're talking Dr.
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Weston A Price.
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And if you've been with me from the beginning, this will be a name that you're familiar with.
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Price's work has really influenced my thinking and choices when it comes to nutrition and human health.
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And I'll say this I love the work of Dr.
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Weston A Price, even though his is a name commonly used to invoke support for animal-based diets and used to quote debunk vegan diets, despite the fact that I'm mostly a plant-based guy.
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So however you eat and whatever you've heard about the work of Dr.
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Weston A Price, stick around, okay, withhold judgment.
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And at the end, let me know what you think.
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You know, maybe your view on price will evolve, as mine did.
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In fact, two of my first three episodes on this podcast were on the work of Dr.
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Price.
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And just to be clear, they're good episodes, a lot of information, incorrect, I believe, they are early episodes.
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So, you know, grading on a curve here.
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Okay, the sound quality isn't the same, the pacing, the flow, okay, come a long way since then, but still quality episodes.
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If at the end of this podcast you want to know even more about the work of Dr.
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Price holistically, definitely check out his book, give some of those episodes a listen.
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I'll link to both of those in the show notes.
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But you know, again, be kind, okay, grading on a curve here, so keep that in mind.
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Now, I've already teed up the fact that Dr.
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Price's work occurred at this incredible time in the 1930s, in which the portable personal camera, commercial aviation became widespread.
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Certainly unique time period in history.
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Now that's not the only thing that made this time period unique.
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Much of Price's writing and study happens just after the Great Depression.
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And when we assess the poor dietary choices of the average American at the time, yeah, I think we should wonder, I think we should consider how much economic factors may have played a role here.
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But that's not all.
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This is also just after the end of Prohibition, a time in American history that has been described not only as politically charged with, say, the temperance movement, but also incredibly bloody with the growth in bootlegging and organized crime.
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And I'll be honest with you, I've always found it incredibly odd that price really doesn't discuss alcohol almost at all in the book.
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Now, maybe it's fair to say that we have a greater appreciation of the negative effects of alcohol now as compared to Price's day.
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I think that's probably fair.
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Yeah, but this book has long sections on juvenile delinquency, commentary on the propensity towards crime, and the concern over the decline in moral standards of the citizenry.
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But on alcohol, something it seems to me would be at least directly related.
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And given how massive this issue was in his day, we have very, very little.
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And I don't know, it's just odd.
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And as I was reflecting on this episode, and just again, really being struck by the lack of commentary on alcohol from Price given the time period, I realized that we're also, right now, the time of this recording, in this incredible, unprecedented, and scary time that we're living through, given this war or conflict with Iran, which is ongoing.
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It's not clear how it's going to end.
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And I realize that if I don't say anything, don't at least acknowledge it, then I'm sort of guilty of the same.
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You know, this is not a political show.
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My aim is to learn and to discuss, share the journey, right?
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My quest to discover what is making us so sick and how to remedy that, to reclaim the radical health and fitness that I believe is our birthright.
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I believe that's how we were born, and to have some fun along the way.
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But as I'm recording this in April of 2026, and given all that's happening with the war in Iran, civilization ending rhetoric, the escalation, the property and infrastructure and lives that have already been destroyed, not saying anything, you know, not acknowledging the tragedy that is this conflict, certainly for someone looking back, I think would just maybe seem incredibly odd.
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So I'll just say this.
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Whatever your views are on the war, let us all pray for, meditate on, send positive energy for the most expedient end to this war, for de-escalation and the cessation of further death and destruction on all sides, for a peaceful end as quickly and as humanely as possible.
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I know I certainly am.
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Again, not a political show, but I don't know.
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I just feel like there would be something highly inappropriate about not acknowledging the incredible time period, the scary time period that we're in now.
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So if anyone is left still interested in Dr.
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Weston A.
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Price, we're gonna proceed.
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Let's get into it.
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And let's get into what most people get wrong about Dr.
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Weston A.
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Price, including and maybe especially those who love his work.
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So first, many common foods associated with Dr.
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Weston A Price in traditional diets, including cod liver oil, raw dairy, butter, fermented foods, properly prepared grains, maybe including sourdough bread, have been widely overblown or simply not part of the traditional diets discussed and studied by Dr.
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Weston A.
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Price.
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Big claim, I know.
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Now I said that Dr.
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Price traveled to some 12 different regions across the globe.
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But if you were to count up the tribes and I don't know how to break these up, individual groups or communities, peoples that he studied, the number would be much, much higher, right?
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Easily 100 or more.
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For example, the entire continent of Africa is one region, right?
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But that consists of many, many, many tribes.
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Some getting extensive commentary and photos from Price, and some just a few lines.
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And one thing that is super important to understand about Price's findings is that there is no single primitive diet, right?
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In his travels, Price discovered and studied people who ate a wide variety of natural foods based on local availability and obviously acquired wisdom.
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The isolated Swiss, as an example, ate a diet that consisted primarily of rye bread, cheese, milk, and meat, like once a week.
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The Native Alaskans, they survived harsh winters on a diet consisting almost exclusively of dried salmon dipped in seal oil, the basai, cow's milk and blood.
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It's a long, fascinating list of groups and foods and people, and people thriving despite eating wildly different types of foods.
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Now, despite the fact that Price observed a great variety of traditional foods and diets, there are some foods which have been commonly associated with the name of Dr.
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Weston A Price, and some that I'm sure you're familiar with cod liver oil, the importance of raw dairy versus pasteurized, fermented foods, including sourdough bread and bone broth.
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Price is often seen as a proponent of traditional diets, which begs the obvious question where did these foods come from?
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Which groups utilized these foods that are commonly associated with the name Dr.
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Weston A Price?
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And to what effect?
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And the answer may surprise you.
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Let's take cod liver oil, one of the key foods emphasized by many promoting Price's work today.
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How many groups, traditional groups that Price studied consumed cod liver oil?
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None.
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Okay, not one.
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Not a single group discussed by Dr.
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Price ate cod liver oil as part of their traditional diet.
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The closest thing we could say may be something like the Inuit, or what Price refers to as the Eskimos of Alaska, and their consumption of seal oil.
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But cod liver oil?
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Not one.
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How about sourdough bread?
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Bread that has been fermented, that many believe contains the probiotics and bacteria needed for us to digest the bread properly.
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How many groups in Price's study ate sourdough bread?
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None.
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Okay, not one.
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And unlike cod liver oil, something we know Price himself did advocate for, and we'll get into why and under what circumstances.
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Sourdough bread?
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I'm not sure he would have.
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In fact, the word fermented only occurs a handful of times in the entire 500 page book.
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And it's in reference to poi, a fermented tarot eaten by Polynesians.
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But bread, the bread that you and I are probably thinking of?
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Not at all.
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And was this just an oversight?
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I don't think so.
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I actually think the evidence suggests price would have supported maybe the opposite.
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One of the first groups that we hear about in Price's travel is the isolated Swiss, a group of rugged mountain people in the Swiss Alps.
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Their diet, according to Price, mostly bread and cheese.
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Rye bread and cheese.
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And here's the thing.
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They emphasize the isolated Swiss, and Price therefore emphasizes freshly ground rye berries as being very important.
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Okay, Price is so impressed by this, and they emphasize this point so much that Price actually purchases one of their grinding mills to bring it back to the United States.
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Was this sourdough bread?
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Unless I'm missing something, I don't think so.
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Now how about raw dairy, milk, cheese, butter, which has not been pasteurized, another food that we are commonly associated with the name Dr.
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Westonake Price, and something that advocates argue was important again to retain the bacteria for probiotics for proper digestion.
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What did Price find, and what did he believe?
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Well, we do know that Price studied multiple groups which made use of dairy from cows, sheep, and camels.
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Given the lack of refrigeration and pasteurization in these regions, I think it's safe to assume that what they were consuming was raw.
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But what did Price think?
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Did he have a view on raw as better?
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Did he view raw dairy as necessary?
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Was pasteurization in and of itself harmful?
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And as far as I can tell, the word pasteurization or any derivative does not appear in Price's writing.
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Now we do know that Dr.
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Price was a fan of dairy, and as we'll discuss in a second, it's included in what I refer to as his quote intervention diet.
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But he never gives us any indication that the milk was raw.
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And to me this is very notable, because this is just when the debate of pasteurization was starting to take hold.
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So the fact that it is not mentioned, just like with alcohol, I find it either odd or significant, or both.
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Now to be fair, if you control F and say the ebook, you will find reference to pasteurization twice, exactly two times.
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But it isn't the aha that you think that it is.
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Okay, it occurs once in the prologue and once in a blurb from another book that was printed by the same publishing company, right?
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Sort of promotion in the back.
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As far as I can tell, neither of which was written by Price, but would appear to have been written by Pottinger, an advocate of Price's work, no doubt, and Pottinger of the famous Pottinger's Cat Study, a study in which, if you're not familiar, involved feeding cats either raw or pasteurized milk and observing the results.
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The cats on the raw milk did well.
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Those on the pasteurized milk did not.
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So Pottinger, definitely a believer in raw milk.
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But Price?
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I'm not so sure.
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Now, just for giggles, I threw the question into Chat GPT.
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Did Dr.
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West Henny Price view raw dairy as important?
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You know, maybe I missed it.
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And here's where things get interesting.
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And this is AI, right?
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So take this with a massive grain of salt.
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But apparently, in an earlier edition of the book, mine for reference is the eighth edition, 23rd printing.
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Again, this book's been around for a hundred years, Dr.
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Price did comment specifically on pasteurization.
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And apparently his views were somewhat nuanced, that he believed in the absence of clean milk, pasteurization was important.
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But if clean milk could not be secured, then raw milk was fine.
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What did this mean exactly?
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Honestly, I don't know.
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Does it mean that raw milk was necessary?
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Did it mean that it was better?
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And given that this was in an earlier edition, at least it would appear to have been, was it removed?
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And if it was removed, why was it removed?
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We know that he was a believer in dairy and the importance of grass fed dairy products, including butter butter.
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But raw, it's never mentioned.
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And while we're on the subject of grass fed butter, a food in which Price himself definitely did believe in, as an important source of fat soluble vitamins like vitamin A, vitamin D, and vitamin K, how many of the traditional groups that Price studied made use of butter?
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Just one, the isolated Swiss.
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So for those keeping track at home, this is a difference.
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Cod liver oil, the importance of fermented grains, raw versus pasteurized butter.
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What Price said versus what people actually say that his work means, it's a bit different.
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Okay, now before heads explode here, we've got to introduce another very important thing about Dr.
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Price's work and a point that is often missed when people discuss his study and the results of his findings.
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And that is that Price did two very important things.
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Okay, now first, he did study, photographed, discussed the diet, dental health, overall health, right, of many people, what I often refer to as his travels.
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:25.039
But that's not all that he did, to his credit.
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:43.839
When Price came back to the States, based on what he learned from traditional diets, but also in an attempt to understand why traditional diets proved so superior, Price designed what I think could be, Price designed what I think could be described as an intervention diet or an intervention study.
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:45.920
Now, this is not a perfect study.
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:47.839
I want to cite your expectations here.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.480
Keep in mind this is like a hundred years ago.
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:54.079
Something like five vitamins had been discovered at this point.
00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:58.559
Okay, so we're talking very, very early nutrition science here.
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:04.559
But to his credit, Price didn't simply bring back what he learned, publish a paper, and be done with it.
00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:09.759
He tried to apply what he learned within the context of the United States.
00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:10.960
Very important.
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:24.079
And for this, he enrolled a few children from the Cleveland area for participation in an intervention study, in which essentially Price fed them one nutrient-dense, home-cooked meal.
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:30.880
I'll give you the specific foods in a second, and assessed the impact to their overall health and dental health.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.640
But the design of this intervention study was important.
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:44.480
Despite the fact those on traditional diets ate wildly different foods, each group that Price studied enjoyed incredible health and vitality.
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:54.160
Price tried to ascertain if there were certain nutrients that might be common in the traditional foods, but devoid in the modern foods of the 1930s.
00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:58.559
And maybe that was the reason why these primitive diets were so superior.
00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:06.960
And what Price also Ultimately concluded was the diets of the quote primitive people, and just to be clear, Price meant that in the best possible way, right?
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:17.920
It was truly a compliment, were much higher in vitamins and minerals than the diets of those following the modern diet, especially when it came to fat-soluble vitamins.
00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:29.119
What he referred to as activators, but this included vitamin A, vitamin D, and activator X, which we now are pretty sure means vitamin K2.
00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:31.680
These were of particular importance.
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:33.839
Now, why does this matter?
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:52.960
Because when it came to designing what today we would call an intervention diet, he considered the broad context of the United States of the 1930s, what access people had to various foods, refrigeration, and I think we can assume, in light of the fact that this is right after the Great Depression, cost.
00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:59.599
So when we consider what price's work means for us today, we have to keep that in mind.
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:11.359
If he were doing the same study today, I am 100% sure that the foods included would be very different than the foods that were included in this study.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:16.960
Because our access, our globalized economy, and our context is much different.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:21.759
This is something very important, and it's a point that many people miss about Price's work.
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:30.000
Now, before I back that point up, let's talk about what foods Price does include in his intervention study, and we'll hear from him directly.
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:33.119
It's a somewhat lengthy quote, but bear with me, okay?
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:54.319
Quote The nutrition provided these children in this one meal included the following foods about four ounces of tomato juice or orange juice, and a teaspoonful of a mixture of equal parts of a very high vitamin natural cod liver oil and especially high vitamin butter given at the beginning of each meal.
00:23:54.559 --> 00:24:03.839
They then received a bowl containing approximately a pint of very rich vegetable and meat stew made largely from bone marrow, fine cuts of tender meat.
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:16.240
The meat was usually broiled separately to retain its juice and then chopped very fine, added to the bone marrow meat soup, which always contained finely chopped vegetables and plenty of yellow carrots.
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:26.240
For the next course, they had cooked fruit with very little sweetening, rolls made from freshly ground wheat, which were spread with the high vitamin butter.
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:32.880
The wheat for the rolls was ground fresh every day in a motor driven coffee mill.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.680
Each child was also then given two glasses of fresh whole milk.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:44.319
The menu was varied from day to day, substituting the meat stew, fish chowder, or organs of animals.
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:45.599
End quote.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:50.960
Did you note the emphasis on freshly ground wheat every day?
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:51.519
Okay?
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:55.440
So unless I'm missing something, this isn't sourdough bread.
00:24:56.319 --> 00:24:57.920
No, I should be clear.
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:01.200
He says fresh whole milk, does this mean raw?
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:02.400
I'm not sure.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:06.480
We are talking about in Cleveland in the 1930s, seems possible.
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:07.599
Is it likely?
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:09.119
I have no idea.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:13.119
But if this is raw, he doesn't emphasize it and he doesn't say it.
00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.039
So again, I find that odd.
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:22.240
Now, in the book, Price presents evidence of marked improvement in the dental health and physical health of the children in the study.
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:24.400
And I completely buy that this is the case.
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:24.799
Okay.
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:27.440
They were eating a very terrible diet before.
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:35.680
I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but it was like they were eating pancakes and like sweetened coffee and some seed oils.
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:41.039
Like it was pretty bad, even by our nutrient deficient standards of today.
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:41.599
Okay.
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:46.480
Nobody would look at that and say this is a very complete diet for growing children.
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:58.640
But it is important to emphasize that this intervention diet was not supposed to be, never designed to be, an optimal human diet.
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:09.680
Many of the foods were added to as efficiently as possible meet the nutrient gaps that Price assumed that they were missing, based on his understanding in the 1930s.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:13.759
This is a critically important point that is so often missed.
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:23.119
In the intro to this chapter on Africa, Price explains why studying traditional diets within the interior of the continent of Africa is so important.
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:31.920
He says quote, seafoods are within reach of the inhabitants of islands and coastal regions regardless of latitude.
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:40.559
The inhabitants of the interior of a continent, however, have not access to liberal supplies of various forms of animal life of the sea.
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:57.839
He goes on to say, and here's what's important, it was important, therefore, in the interest of the inhabitants of the United States, Canada, Europe, and other large continental interiors to study primitive people living under conditions similar to theirs.
00:26:58.079 --> 00:26:59.039
End quote.
00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:01.039
Now did you catch that?
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:11.519
Price is essentially saying that a lot of people in the US, Canada, and Europe don't have access to seafood because they live in the interior of the country.
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:15.359
So studying people in, say, Central Africa, hugely important.
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:18.880
Keep this in mind, this is the 1930s.
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:24.559
Access to refrigeration, even in developed countries like the United States, is spotty at this point.
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:50.240
Foods like cod liver oil, grass-fed butter, bone broth, whole milk would have been foods that would have A, provided many of the fat-soluble activators like vitamin A, D, K2, while at the same time being accessible and relatively affordable for people in many parts of the United States, Canada, and Europe, countries just coming out of a Great Depression.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:28:06.000
I will emphasize again, this was never intended to be an optimal human diet, but an efficient way to replicate some of the success of what Price had discovered within a set of constraints of the 1930s.
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:11.920
And many of these constraints are no longer an issue for the average American today.
00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:24.640
For someone living in the center of the United States in Price's day, without access to refrigeration and modern shipping and trucking, would have been very limited in their ability to, say, consume fresh seafood as an example.
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:36.559
This is one of the main reasons Price studies the traditional diets of Central Africa, like the Maasai, to learn how they were building and maintaining good bodies without access to seafoods.
00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:38.720
Now, why is that significant?
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:40.640
Why are seafoods significant here?
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:43.200
You'll notice that he mentions it a couple of times.
00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:50.319
Well, that brings me to point number two, something that is often missed when discussing Price's work.
00:28:50.480 --> 00:29:07.599
In fact, I've never heard anyone discuss it, which is if Price were to pick an optimal human diet, it would likely be pescatarian, a diet rich in marine foods or what price often refers to as plants and animals of the sea, right?
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:08.880
Something to that effect.
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:12.960
Now, how many people who promote the work of Dr.
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:13.680
Weston A.
00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:15.599
Price have you heard point that out?
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:19.440
And why am I willing to say that with confidence?
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:36.480
Well, in part, it's because of what I just pointed out that Price's intervention diet, that's my words here, is designed in an attempt to overcome what Price recognizes as constraints with respect to optimal human nutrition in a diet devoid of seafood.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:38.799
That's why Central Africa is so important.
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:45.200
But it's also because of what Price writes about the individual people that he studies.
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:57.839
There's no doubt that Price has high praise for the health and vitality of all the people that he studies who are following their traditional diets, including, say, the Maasai, who essentially live on a diet of milk and blood.
00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:58.160
Okay.
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:06.160
They bloodled the cows, add the blood to the milk, mix that together, and that makes up a good chunk of their nutrition.
00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:10.559
The photos in all these cases speak for themselves.
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:15.039
But I will say that after reading price, and I know it's a big ass, right?
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:17.680
It's a 500-page book, but a lot of pictures too.
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:18.160
Okay.
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:29.119
But there is no doubt that the highest praise is reserved for those consuming what price refers to as liberal quantities of animals and plants of the sea, right?
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:30.240
Something to that effect.
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.400
In other words, people who are basically pescatarian.
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:36.079
Now don't take my word for it.
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:37.279
Okay, let's hear from Dr.
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:40.400
Price himself and come to your own conclusions.
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:42.640
I've got a few here.
00:30:43.119 --> 00:31:04.000
The first, quote, My previous studies have shown that wherever groups of people were utilizing seafoods abundantly in connection with land plants, including roots, greens, and fruits, they enjoyed fine physical development with uniform reproduction of the racial pattern and a very high immunity to dental caries.
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:05.279
End quote.
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:07.119
Okay, did you catch that?
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:20.079
Wherever, every time, every time he sees people that are using seafoods in conjunction with a few things that can be found on land, fine physical development, et cetera, et cetera, right?
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:27.440
And of course, we've got to remember price is writing in the 1930s, so the way he's putting things would be a bit different than the way we put them today, right?
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:28.720
But this is high praise.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:29.759
Okay, but that's not all.
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:49.440
He says of the Maori in New Zealand, quote, the Maori race developed a knowledge of nature's law and adopted a system of living in harmony with those laws to so high a degree that they were able to build what was reported by early scientists to be the most physically perfect race living on the face of Earth.
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:58.319
They accomplished this largely through diet and a system of social organization designed to provide a high degree of perfection in their offspring.
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:03.279
To do this, they utilized foods from the sea very liberally.
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:04.720
End quote.
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:05.519
Okay.
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:09.680
The most physically perfect race on the face of the earth.
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:11.279
Okay, this is high praise.
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:17.759
Now I know that Price isn't saying this directly, but he did include this in his book, and he made mention of it.
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:21.759
So clearly it's a point that he at least agrees with on some level.
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.920
And these are far from the only quotes.
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:31.200
There are many other areas, groups that are using seafoods, and Price has praise that is very, very similar.
00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:32.960
Okay, I'll give you one more.
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:46.400
In as much as a 1930s dentist can gush about a subject, okay, Price gushes about a particularly impressive tribe in Kenya living largely on seafood, with physiques he describes as quote, magnificent.
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:46.880
Okay.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:59.119
He says, quote, the government of Kenya has for several years sponsored an athletic contest among the various tribes, the test being one of strength, for which they use a tug of war.
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:03.200
One particular tribe has carried off the trophy repeatedly.
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:09.279
This tribe resides on the east coast of Lake Victoria and lives very largely on fish.
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.720
The members are powerful athletes and wonderful swimmers.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:17.839
They are said not to have been conquered in warfare when they could take the warfare to the water.
00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:21.440
He then goes on to say their physiques are magnificent.
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:22.319
End quote.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:31.680
And there are many, many other quotes like this, from the native Alaskans eating a diet consisting mostly of salmon to coastal aborigines of Australia.
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:43.680
If there were one food that I am quite sure that Price would view as maybe the most important food when constructing or considering the optimal human diet, it would be seafood.
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:50.079
And most people, including many of his modern day fans, have missed this point completely.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:52.480
So let's move on to point number three.
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:53.039
Dr.
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:53.920
Weston A.
00:33:54.079 --> 00:33:57.200
Price did not debunk plant-based diets.
00:33:57.839 --> 00:33:59.200
Now I know, I know.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:33:59.759
Dr.
00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:04.480
Price's name is often invoked in the quote, debunking of plant-based diets.
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:11.119
And there is no doubt that Price himself did not view plant-based diets at the time as health promoting.
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:12.559
Okay, not a fan.
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:18.960
But is Price's work the slam dunk against plant-based diets that many of his fans think it is?
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:22.159
And in short, no, it isn't.
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:33.440
Unlike raw versus pasteurized, the benefits of fermentation, in which Price's views are not explicit, Price does explicitly address plant-based diets twice, okay?
00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:35.760
Two times in about 500 pages.
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:40.559
Now the quotes aren't super long, so I'll give you them both and then we'll unpack them.
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:52.239
The first quote It is significant that I, as of yet, have found no group that was building and maintaining good bodies exclusively on plant foods.
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:57.039
A number of groups are endeavoring to do so with marked evidence of failure.
00:34:57.280 --> 00:35:03.440
The variety of animal foods available has varied widely in some groups and has been limited in others.
00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:04.719
End quote.
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:05.599
Okay?
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.039
So that's the first one.
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:12.320
Again, seems like a slam dunk, but let me go through the second one and then let's break them down together.
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:23.679
Quote, as of yet, I have not found a single group of primitive racial stock which was building and maintaining excellent bodies by living entirely on plant foods.
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:33.599
I have found many parts of the world's most devout representatives of modern ethical systems advocating the restrictions of foods to the vegetable products.
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:51.440
In every instance where groups involved had been under this teaching, I have found evidence of degeneration in the form of dental caries and in the new generation in the form of abnormal dental arches to an extent very much higher than in primitive groups which were not under this influence.
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:52.639
End quote.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:53.840
Okay.
00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:56.159
So these are very powerful statements.
00:35:56.559 --> 00:36:02.079
And it's interesting to know that there were people advocating for plant-based diets back in the 1930s.
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:06.000
This is certainly not a modern or a new innovation.
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:09.199
And these quotes seem somewhat definitive.
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:16.079
But why do I say that despite how definitive these statements are, he doesn't debunk plant-based diets?
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:20.239
And the answer is because he doesn't provide any evidence.
00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:21.840
And I mean none.
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:27.440
That is the full totality of Price's point about plant-based diets.
00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:32.719
We don't get a single picture of any of the people in any of these plant-based groups.
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:38.159
We don't get a chart with any number of dental caries, dental cavities in the plant-based groups.
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:40.880
We don't even get a name for any of these groups.
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:44.800
What they're eating, I mean, it's just it's just nothing.
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:47.519
Just a claim with no evidence.
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:59.599
When he says, as of yet, I have not found a single group of primitive racial stock which was building and maintaining excellent bodies by living entirely on plant foods, what exactly does this mean?
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:05.199
That he found primitive races attempting to live on plant foods with poor health and poor outcomes?
00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:08.159
Or that he attempted to find any but didn't.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.519
Even that statement in and of itself isn't clear.
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:19.039
He does go on to reference some modern advocates of a plant-based diet and claims that their results have been pretty terrible.
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:27.840
But again, not only do we not get a shred of evidence to back up this claim, not a single group named, but it's also a compared to what?
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:34.239
We're talking about a modern diet, modern plant-based diet of the 1930s.
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:41.599
The standard diet of the 1930s, if we were to use how we would describe it today, was admittedly terrible, right?
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:46.239
Basically processed flour, seed oils, jams, sugar, and canned goods.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:49.840
How did the plant-based version of that diet fare?
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:52.800
I would assume pretty terribly as well.
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:58.559
My point is not to say that Price is wrong about plant-based diets of the 1930s.
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:00.320
He probably is right.
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:04.400
And you're probably inclined to agree with him if you're a fan of his work.
00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:08.559
But as a thought experiment, consider the following.
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:25.039
Suppose some plant-based doctor presented a similar case in which he or she claimed that after studying a number of populations, that he or she had not found any evidence of any group following a mixed or animal-based diet with immunity to cancer.
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:31.599
No evidence provided, no list of groups, just a bold claim with no evidence.
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:42.960
I mean, they might be right, they might not be, but if we're trying to be honest and fair-minded, regardless of our own bias, statements like that would lead to more questions than answers.
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:45.760
Now, is Price right about plant-based diets?
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:47.280
Maybe, maybe not.
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:53.760
Okay, but the case that he has presented, at least in the version of the book that I have, is just so incredibly weak.
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:54.800
Okay, it just is.
00:38:54.960 --> 00:39:02.480
If we're being honest and the shoe we're on the other foot, I don't think that it would be fair to say that price debunked plant-based diets.
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:02.960
Okay.
00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:06.800
Maybe I'm missing something, uh, but that's my two cents here.
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:09.280
Let's talk one more.
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:14.960
And this one is not so much a misconception as it is a surprise that price's views are not made explicit.
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:18.800
I've hinted toward this, and that's on the topic of alcohol.
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:27.440
Now, at the time of this recording, alcohol consumption in the United States and many other places in the developed world is in the midst of a decline.
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:35.199
From 2021 to 2025, the total consumption of alcohol in the United States dropped by about 8%.
00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:51.440
A majority of Americans, now 53% according to Gallup, now believe that even moderate drinking can be harmful, with some of the biggest drops among young people, a group which historically has been strong consumers of alcohol.
00:39:52.320 --> 00:40:00.880
We are in the midst of a potential sea change when it comes to the health implications and our understanding of the health implications of alcohol.
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:16.239
So if a price, so if a study like prices were done today, there's no doubt that topics like alcohol, diabetes, obesity would have been noted by the researchers, like topics that are very important from the perspective of what we're dealing with today.
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:19.440
But here's the thing: prices writing in the 1930s.
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:25.920
Again, this is just after the end of Prohibition, which occurred from 1920 to 1933.
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:38.960
And although Price's timeline is really, unfortunately, not very detailed, we do know that his travels to the isolated Swiss happened in 1933, the year of the end of Prohibition.
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:41.519
And Price barely mentions alcohol at all.
00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:43.760
Something I just find odd.
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:49.920
A quick search in the Kindle version has the term alcohol, actually alcoholic, showing up twice.
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:53.039
Okay, and it's not in reference to traditional populations.
00:40:53.280 --> 00:41:02.559
This is in reference to, I guess, sperm quality and his more commentary on culture and juvenile delinquency, et cetera, et cetera.
00:41:03.760 --> 00:41:08.639
So we're not talking about alcohol as problematic in and of itself.
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:15.280
The word wine occurs five times, mostly in reference to the isolated Swiss.
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:21.360
And it's not clear whether Price's views on wine or alcohol are harmful or helpful.
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:25.840
Again, it's just surprising and a bit odd given the subject and the time.
00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:30.480
I think we can make some assumptions about Price's position based on what we know.
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:34.159
Sure, and this I think the same probably does go for raw dairy.
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:38.000
And if I'm being honest, with time, probably sourdough bread.
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:40.400
Okay, I don't mean to pick on people's sourdough bread.
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:42.320
But I think you get my point here.
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:44.559
I am a massive believer in.
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:50.079
As best you can, read the actual sources, and what you find may surprise you.
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:55.280
What other people choose to emphasize may be very different than the impression that you get.
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:56.000
Reading Dr.
00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:56.800
Weston A.
00:41:56.880 --> 00:42:08.320
Price is one of the things that personally convinced me to incorporate the use of seafoods into my diet, okay, and to incorporate the use of even some more exotic foods, like cod liver, the actual cod liver, right?
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:14.079
Not cod liver oil, because that's what Price finds that people on his studies are actually eating.
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:18.079
Now, what your conclusions may be might be entirely different.
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:23.119
Am I saying that Price would not have believed in raw dairy if he were alive today?
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:24.400
No, I don't think so.
00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:26.960
I think he probably would view it as very helpful.
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:35.760
But what I want to point out and really emphasize here is that the things that are often missed in the conversation about Dr.
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:36.559
West and A.
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:48.320
Price are what people are what keep people focused on this very narrow set of foods that, while helpful, might not actually be the most helpful foods that price would point to if he were alive today.
00:42:48.559 --> 00:42:55.199
They were based on a set of constraints, constraints of the 1930s, never designed to be an optimal human diet.
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:04.719
And if we are living in a world that is free from those constraints, or at least many of them, the question is, what would we do?
00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:07.840
What would Price do or suggest if he were alive today?
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:13.760
And I'm betting that his recommendations would look much, much different than those promoting his work today.
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:15.599
Just my two cents.
00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:18.639
Okay, let's go ahead and wrap up for today.
00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:20.559
As always, thank you for the listen.
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:26.960
If you are enjoying the show, please like, share, subscribe, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and now YouTube.
00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:28.559
Okay, YouTube channel is up.
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:30.559
Unconditional with Norby Schickle.
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:32.159
Definitely go check that out.
00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:36.000
Uh I've got limited video at this point, uh, but for sure, check that out.
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:37.760
And more to come on that as well.
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:40.079
Thanks, and I'll see you again next week.
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:02.240
Now, I've said before that Dr.
00:00:02.319 --> 00:00:03.120
Weston A.
00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:10.800
Price's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration is the most important book on human health and nutrition ever written.
00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:11.839
Full stop.
00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:17.760
It is an incredible study which spanned multiple years and multiple continents.
00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:18.160
Dr.
00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:19.039
Weston A.
00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:28.480
Price, a Canadian-born dentist living in Cleveland, attempted to get to the root cause behind the rapid decline in human health in the modern world of the 1930s.
00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:55.920
And while many leading scientists of the day favored race mixing as the explanation behind the rise in cavities, mouth breathing, and developmental delays in children, Price was convinced that nutrition was to blame, and specifically a movement away from real whole foods, which humanity had relied on for all of recorded history, to the industrially processed, nutrient poor foods relied on by so many of the 1930s.
00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:56.640
Dr.
00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:06.319
Price devised an ingenious study in which he attempted to find people of the same or similar genetic stock, but who were following two different diets.
00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:24.319
Those following a traditional diet, what might be described as a real, whole foods, nutrient dense diet, compared with those following a modern, industrially processed diet of the 1930s, and then assess, measure, and document the different health outcomes between the two groups.
00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:28.480
And literally everywhere he went, the results were the same.
00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:37.599
Those following their traditional diets, consisting of real whole foods, enjoyed robust health, excellent teeth, wide dental arches.
00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:49.120
Members of the communities who had transitioned to the quote modern Western diet of processed white flowers, jams, canned vegetables and seed oils, the exact opposite.
00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:55.280
Terrible teeth, narrow dental archers, and mouth breathers with poor physical development.
00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:58.879
And words can't do these results justice.
00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:01.439
Unfortunately for us, they don't need to.
00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:01.920
Dr.
00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:12.159
Price and his wife took some fifteen thousand photos as they traveled to some twelve regions across the globe, from Peru to Alaska, Central Africa to the Swiss Alps.
00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:15.039
And the pictures are truly worth a thousand words.
00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:22.240
The difference between the two groups is so stark, so unbelievable, it's honestly hard to describe in words.
00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:26.560
I've yet to find a person who has read the work of doctor Weston A.
00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:32.960
Price, who's not been moved in the direction of real, whole, nutrient dense foods.
00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:36.000
The photographic evidence is just too compelling.
00:02:36.639 --> 00:03:01.360
Now part of the reason why this book is so incredible, and that I can say definitively that it will never be replicated is because of the unique time period in which Price and his wife performed their work, the 1930s, a time in which two revolutionary technologies, the portable personal camera, commercial airline travel, made Price's incredible work possible for the first time in history.
00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:22.560
Now at the same time, the forces of globalization and the spread of the modern Western diet and lifestyle essentially served as a ticking time bomb set to destroy the long history of traditional diets, thus presenting this incredible, short-lived window of time in which a study like Price's could be performed.
00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:33.439
Price was the right person at the right time with the right technology, an incredible trifecta, and therefore this study will never be replicated.
00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:35.680
Whether you love the work of Dr.
00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:36.479
Weston A.
00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:42.319
Price or you disagree with his conclusions 100%, this book is for you.
00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:47.120
This is the most important book written on human health and nutrition ever.
00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:53.680
There is a reason this book has been in print for a hundred years, and it will be in print for a hundred more.
00:03:54.080 --> 00:04:09.039
His work has inspired many people to let food be thy medicine, including the creation of the Western A Price Foundation, an organization committed to continuing his legacy, sharing his message, and promoting real, nutrient-dense whole foods.
00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:19.920
Foods like raw milk and butter, cod liver oil, fermented foods, the importance of animal-based foods, including organ meats, all ideas associated with the name Dr.
00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:20.720
Weston A.
00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:24.959
Price, and ideas which are seeing a surge in interest today.
00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:28.079
But here's the thing.
00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:43.839
After reading Price, after actually reading nutrition and physical degeneration and seeing what Price said versus what people say Price said, I can't help but notice there are some differences, and we're going to get into them today.
00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:45.759
If you're unfamiliar with the name Dr.
00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:46.560
Weston A.
00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:49.920
Price, we're going to remedy that, and you're in the right place.
00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:51.920
But even if you love the work of Dr.
00:04:52.079 --> 00:05:00.000
Price, you know his work, or at least you think you know his work, you're going to want to stick around because you may be in for a surprise.
00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:07.360
With that, I'd like to welcome you to another episode of Unconditional with Nilby Schickle.
00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:08.800
It's great to be back.
00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:25.360
We had a couple weeks in a row of super nerd episodes in which we went deep into individual randomized controlled studies, which I believe are not only fascinating, but also important to understanding some of the claims that get thrown around in health and fitness circles.
00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:27.439
Calorie is a calorie.
00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:29.920
Exercise doesn't help you lose weight.
00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:34.879
And if you've missed those episodes or they sound interesting, okay, definitely check those out.
00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:39.120
I had a lot of fun with them and I'm happy with how they turned out.
00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:43.120
But I did promise that we'd shift gears this week, and we will.
00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:49.600
But apparently enough people like the nerd stuff because I see quite a number of additional downloads and new listeners.
00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:50.959
So that's great.
00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:53.759
Welcome to you, and it's good to have you.
00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:55.279
But today we're talking Dr.
00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:56.720
Weston A Price.
00:05:56.879 --> 00:06:01.040
And if you've been with me from the beginning, this will be a name that you're familiar with.
00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:06.720
Price's work has really influenced my thinking and choices when it comes to nutrition and human health.
00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:09.920
And I'll say this I love the work of Dr.
00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:22.879
Weston A Price, even though his is a name commonly used to invoke support for animal-based diets and used to quote debunk vegan diets, despite the fact that I'm mostly a plant-based guy.
00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.959
So however you eat and whatever you've heard about the work of Dr.
00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:31.199
Weston A Price, stick around, okay, withhold judgment.
00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:33.360
And at the end, let me know what you think.
00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:37.519
You know, maybe your view on price will evolve, as mine did.
00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:42.879
In fact, two of my first three episodes on this podcast were on the work of Dr.
00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:43.519
Price.
00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:50.399
And just to be clear, they're good episodes, a lot of information, incorrect, I believe, they are early episodes.
00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:52.560
So, you know, grading on a curve here.
00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:59.600
Okay, the sound quality isn't the same, the pacing, the flow, okay, come a long way since then, but still quality episodes.
00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:03.920
If at the end of this podcast you want to know even more about the work of Dr.
00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:08.720
Price holistically, definitely check out his book, give some of those episodes a listen.
00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:10.879
I'll link to both of those in the show notes.
00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:15.040
But you know, again, be kind, okay, grading on a curve here, so keep that in mind.
00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:19.040
Now, I've already teed up the fact that Dr.
00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:27.839
Price's work occurred at this incredible time in the 1930s, in which the portable personal camera, commercial aviation became widespread.
00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:30.560
Certainly unique time period in history.
00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:34.560
Now that's not the only thing that made this time period unique.
00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:38.959
Much of Price's writing and study happens just after the Great Depression.
00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:50.879
And when we assess the poor dietary choices of the average American at the time, yeah, I think we should wonder, I think we should consider how much economic factors may have played a role here.
00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:52.639
But that's not all.
00:07:53.120 --> 00:08:07.439
This is also just after the end of Prohibition, a time in American history that has been described not only as politically charged with, say, the temperance movement, but also incredibly bloody with the growth in bootlegging and organized crime.
00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:16.240
And I'll be honest with you, I've always found it incredibly odd that price really doesn't discuss alcohol almost at all in the book.
00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:24.480
Now, maybe it's fair to say that we have a greater appreciation of the negative effects of alcohol now as compared to Price's day.
00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:26.560
I think that's probably fair.
00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:39.200
Yeah, but this book has long sections on juvenile delinquency, commentary on the propensity towards crime, and the concern over the decline in moral standards of the citizenry.
00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:45.120
But on alcohol, something it seems to me would be at least directly related.
00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:50.240
And given how massive this issue was in his day, we have very, very little.
00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:52.720
And I don't know, it's just odd.
00:08:52.960 --> 00:09:16.879
And as I was reflecting on this episode, and just again, really being struck by the lack of commentary on alcohol from Price given the time period, I realized that we're also, right now, the time of this recording, in this incredible, unprecedented, and scary time that we're living through, given this war or conflict with Iran, which is ongoing.
00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:18.960
It's not clear how it's going to end.
00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:26.080
And I realize that if I don't say anything, don't at least acknowledge it, then I'm sort of guilty of the same.
00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:28.480
You know, this is not a political show.
00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:32.480
My aim is to learn and to discuss, share the journey, right?
00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:40.960
My quest to discover what is making us so sick and how to remedy that, to reclaim the radical health and fitness that I believe is our birthright.
00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:45.120
I believe that's how we were born, and to have some fun along the way.
00:09:45.440 --> 00:10:11.039
But as I'm recording this in April of 2026, and given all that's happening with the war in Iran, civilization ending rhetoric, the escalation, the property and infrastructure and lives that have already been destroyed, not saying anything, you know, not acknowledging the tragedy that is this conflict, certainly for someone looking back, I think would just maybe seem incredibly odd.
00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:12.639
So I'll just say this.
00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:32.240
Whatever your views are on the war, let us all pray for, meditate on, send positive energy for the most expedient end to this war, for de-escalation and the cessation of further death and destruction on all sides, for a peaceful end as quickly and as humanely as possible.
00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:33.840
I know I certainly am.
00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:37.519
Again, not a political show, but I don't know.
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:47.279
I just feel like there would be something highly inappropriate about not acknowledging the incredible time period, the scary time period that we're in now.
00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:50.480
So if anyone is left still interested in Dr.
00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:51.360
Weston A.
00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:52.960
Price, we're gonna proceed.
00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:54.240
Let's get into it.
00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:58.000
And let's get into what most people get wrong about Dr.
00:10:58.159 --> 00:10:58.799
Weston A.
00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:02.960
Price, including and maybe especially those who love his work.
00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:07.759
So first, many common foods associated with Dr.
00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:26.639
Weston A Price in traditional diets, including cod liver oil, raw dairy, butter, fermented foods, properly prepared grains, maybe including sourdough bread, have been widely overblown or simply not part of the traditional diets discussed and studied by Dr.
00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:27.440
Weston A.
00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:28.240
Price.
00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:30.960
Big claim, I know.
00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:32.240
Now I said that Dr.
00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:35.519
Price traveled to some 12 different regions across the globe.
00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:45.360
But if you were to count up the tribes and I don't know how to break these up, individual groups or communities, peoples that he studied, the number would be much, much higher, right?
00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:47.120
Easily 100 or more.
00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:52.879
For example, the entire continent of Africa is one region, right?
00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:55.759
But that consists of many, many, many tribes.
00:11:56.320 --> 00:12:00.799
Some getting extensive commentary and photos from Price, and some just a few lines.
00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:09.279
And one thing that is super important to understand about Price's findings is that there is no single primitive diet, right?
00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:19.919
In his travels, Price discovered and studied people who ate a wide variety of natural foods based on local availability and obviously acquired wisdom.
00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:30.080
The isolated Swiss, as an example, ate a diet that consisted primarily of rye bread, cheese, milk, and meat, like once a week.
00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:42.879
The Native Alaskans, they survived harsh winters on a diet consisting almost exclusively of dried salmon dipped in seal oil, the basai, cow's milk and blood.
00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:52.960
It's a long, fascinating list of groups and foods and people, and people thriving despite eating wildly different types of foods.
00:12:53.279 --> 00:13:02.639
Now, despite the fact that Price observed a great variety of traditional foods and diets, there are some foods which have been commonly associated with the name of Dr.
00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:15.440
Weston A Price, and some that I'm sure you're familiar with cod liver oil, the importance of raw dairy versus pasteurized, fermented foods, including sourdough bread and bone broth.
00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:24.159
Price is often seen as a proponent of traditional diets, which begs the obvious question where did these foods come from?
00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:29.440
Which groups utilized these foods that are commonly associated with the name Dr.
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:30.799
Weston A Price?
00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:33.679
And to what effect?
00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:35.679
And the answer may surprise you.
00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:42.000
Let's take cod liver oil, one of the key foods emphasized by many promoting Price's work today.
00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:48.799
How many groups, traditional groups that Price studied consumed cod liver oil?
00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:50.559
None.
00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:52.159
Okay, not one.
00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:55.279
Not a single group discussed by Dr.
00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:58.879
Price ate cod liver oil as part of their traditional diet.
00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:08.480
The closest thing we could say may be something like the Inuit, or what Price refers to as the Eskimos of Alaska, and their consumption of seal oil.
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:10.399
But cod liver oil?
00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:11.440
Not one.
00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:14.000
How about sourdough bread?
00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:22.399
Bread that has been fermented, that many believe contains the probiotics and bacteria needed for us to digest the bread properly.
00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:26.559
How many groups in Price's study ate sourdough bread?
00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:28.080
None.
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:29.279
Okay, not one.
00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:37.759
And unlike cod liver oil, something we know Price himself did advocate for, and we'll get into why and under what circumstances.
00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:39.440
Sourdough bread?
00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:41.519
I'm not sure he would have.
00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:47.600
In fact, the word fermented only occurs a handful of times in the entire 500 page book.
00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:52.799
And it's in reference to poi, a fermented tarot eaten by Polynesians.
00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:57.120
But bread, the bread that you and I are probably thinking of?
00:14:57.440 --> 00:14:58.399
Not at all.
00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:01.200
And was this just an oversight?
00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:02.799
I don't think so.
00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:08.240
I actually think the evidence suggests price would have supported maybe the opposite.
00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:16.799
One of the first groups that we hear about in Price's travel is the isolated Swiss, a group of rugged mountain people in the Swiss Alps.
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:20.639
Their diet, according to Price, mostly bread and cheese.
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:22.480
Rye bread and cheese.
00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:23.840
And here's the thing.
00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:32.960
They emphasize the isolated Swiss, and Price therefore emphasizes freshly ground rye berries as being very important.
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:42.879
Okay, Price is so impressed by this, and they emphasize this point so much that Price actually purchases one of their grinding mills to bring it back to the United States.
00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:44.639
Was this sourdough bread?
00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:47.759
Unless I'm missing something, I don't think so.
00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:56.320
Now how about raw dairy, milk, cheese, butter, which has not been pasteurized, another food that we are commonly associated with the name Dr.
00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:04.320
Westonake Price, and something that advocates argue was important again to retain the bacteria for probiotics for proper digestion.
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:07.759
What did Price find, and what did he believe?
00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:14.960
Well, we do know that Price studied multiple groups which made use of dairy from cows, sheep, and camels.
00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:23.600
Given the lack of refrigeration and pasteurization in these regions, I think it's safe to assume that what they were consuming was raw.
00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:25.840
But what did Price think?
00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:29.120
Did he have a view on raw as better?
00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:31.840
Did he view raw dairy as necessary?
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.879
Was pasteurization in and of itself harmful?
00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:42.399
And as far as I can tell, the word pasteurization or any derivative does not appear in Price's writing.
00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:43.919
Now we do know that Dr.
00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:51.759
Price was a fan of dairy, and as we'll discuss in a second, it's included in what I refer to as his quote intervention diet.
00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:55.679
But he never gives us any indication that the milk was raw.
00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:03.440
And to me this is very notable, because this is just when the debate of pasteurization was starting to take hold.
00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:12.160
So the fact that it is not mentioned, just like with alcohol, I find it either odd or significant, or both.
00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:20.559
Now to be fair, if you control F and say the ebook, you will find reference to pasteurization twice, exactly two times.
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.079
But it isn't the aha that you think that it is.
00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:32.079
Okay, it occurs once in the prologue and once in a blurb from another book that was printed by the same publishing company, right?
00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:34.000
Sort of promotion in the back.
00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:55.839
As far as I can tell, neither of which was written by Price, but would appear to have been written by Pottinger, an advocate of Price's work, no doubt, and Pottinger of the famous Pottinger's Cat Study, a study in which, if you're not familiar, involved feeding cats either raw or pasteurized milk and observing the results.
00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:58.000
The cats on the raw milk did well.
00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:01.119
Those on the pasteurized milk did not.
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:05.200
So Pottinger, definitely a believer in raw milk.
00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:06.400
But Price?
00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:08.480
I'm not so sure.
00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:12.240
Now, just for giggles, I threw the question into Chat GPT.
00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:13.599
Did Dr.
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:16.720
West Henny Price view raw dairy as important?
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:18.480
You know, maybe I missed it.
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:20.559
And here's where things get interesting.
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:22.160
And this is AI, right?
00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:24.799
So take this with a massive grain of salt.
00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:32.240
But apparently, in an earlier edition of the book, mine for reference is the eighth edition, 23rd printing.
00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:35.119
Again, this book's been around for a hundred years, Dr.
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.240
Price did comment specifically on pasteurization.
00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:46.000
And apparently his views were somewhat nuanced, that he believed in the absence of clean milk, pasteurization was important.
00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:50.400
But if clean milk could not be secured, then raw milk was fine.
00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:52.480
What did this mean exactly?
00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:54.319
Honestly, I don't know.
00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:57.039
Does it mean that raw milk was necessary?
00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:59.119
Did it mean that it was better?
00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:05.920
And given that this was in an earlier edition, at least it would appear to have been, was it removed?
00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:08.400
And if it was removed, why was it removed?
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:15.039
We know that he was a believer in dairy and the importance of grass fed dairy products, including butter butter.
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:18.799
But raw, it's never mentioned.
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:34.960
And while we're on the subject of grass fed butter, a food in which Price himself definitely did believe in, as an important source of fat soluble vitamins like vitamin A, vitamin D, and vitamin K, how many of the traditional groups that Price studied made use of butter?
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:37.839
Just one, the isolated Swiss.
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.599
So for those keeping track at home, this is a difference.
00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:47.519
Cod liver oil, the importance of fermented grains, raw versus pasteurized butter.
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:54.640
What Price said versus what people actually say that his work means, it's a bit different.
00:19:55.359 --> 00:20:00.640
Okay, now before heads explode here, we've got to introduce another very important thing about Dr.
00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:07.920
Price's work and a point that is often missed when people discuss his study and the results of his findings.
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:11.440
And that is that Price did two very important things.
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:21.920
Okay, now first, he did study, photographed, discussed the diet, dental health, overall health, right, of many people, what I often refer to as his travels.
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:25.039
But that's not all that he did, to his credit.
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:43.839
When Price came back to the States, based on what he learned from traditional diets, but also in an attempt to understand why traditional diets proved so superior, Price designed what I think could be, Price designed what I think could be described as an intervention diet or an intervention study.
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:45.920
Now, this is not a perfect study.
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:47.839
I want to cite your expectations here.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.480
Keep in mind this is like a hundred years ago.
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:54.079
Something like five vitamins had been discovered at this point.
00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:58.559
Okay, so we're talking very, very early nutrition science here.
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:04.559
But to his credit, Price didn't simply bring back what he learned, publish a paper, and be done with it.
00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:09.759
He tried to apply what he learned within the context of the United States.
00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:10.960
Very important.
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:24.079
And for this, he enrolled a few children from the Cleveland area for participation in an intervention study, in which essentially Price fed them one nutrient-dense, home-cooked meal.
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:30.880
I'll give you the specific foods in a second, and assessed the impact to their overall health and dental health.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.640
But the design of this intervention study was important.
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:44.480
Despite the fact those on traditional diets ate wildly different foods, each group that Price studied enjoyed incredible health and vitality.
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:54.160
Price tried to ascertain if there were certain nutrients that might be common in the traditional foods, but devoid in the modern foods of the 1930s.
00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:58.559
And maybe that was the reason why these primitive diets were so superior.
00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:06.960
And what Price also Ultimately concluded was the diets of the quote primitive people, and just to be clear, Price meant that in the best possible way, right?
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:17.920
It was truly a compliment, were much higher in vitamins and minerals than the diets of those following the modern diet, especially when it came to fat-soluble vitamins.
00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:29.119
What he referred to as activators, but this included vitamin A, vitamin D, and activator X, which we now are pretty sure means vitamin K2.
00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:31.680
These were of particular importance.
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:33.839
Now, why does this matter?
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:52.960
Because when it came to designing what today we would call an intervention diet, he considered the broad context of the United States of the 1930s, what access people had to various foods, refrigeration, and I think we can assume, in light of the fact that this is right after the Great Depression, cost.
00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:59.599
So when we consider what price's work means for us today, we have to keep that in mind.
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:11.359
If he were doing the same study today, I am 100% sure that the foods included would be very different than the foods that were included in this study.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:16.960
Because our access, our globalized economy, and our context is much different.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:21.759
This is something very important, and it's a point that many people miss about Price's work.
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:30.000
Now, before I back that point up, let's talk about what foods Price does include in his intervention study, and we'll hear from him directly.
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:33.119
It's a somewhat lengthy quote, but bear with me, okay?
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:54.319
Quote The nutrition provided these children in this one meal included the following foods about four ounces of tomato juice or orange juice, and a teaspoonful of a mixture of equal parts of a very high vitamin natural cod liver oil and especially high vitamin butter given at the beginning of each meal.
00:23:54.559 --> 00:24:03.839
They then received a bowl containing approximately a pint of very rich vegetable and meat stew made largely from bone marrow, fine cuts of tender meat.
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:16.240
The meat was usually broiled separately to retain its juice and then chopped very fine, added to the bone marrow meat soup, which always contained finely chopped vegetables and plenty of yellow carrots.
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:26.240
For the next course, they had cooked fruit with very little sweetening, rolls made from freshly ground wheat, which were spread with the high vitamin butter.
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:32.880
The wheat for the rolls was ground fresh every day in a motor driven coffee mill.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.680
Each child was also then given two glasses of fresh whole milk.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:44.319
The menu was varied from day to day, substituting the meat stew, fish chowder, or organs of animals.
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:45.599
End quote.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:50.960
Did you note the emphasis on freshly ground wheat every day?
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:51.519
Okay?
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:55.440
So unless I'm missing something, this isn't sourdough bread.
00:24:56.319 --> 00:24:57.920
No, I should be clear.
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:01.200
He says fresh whole milk, does this mean raw?
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:02.400
I'm not sure.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:06.480
We are talking about in Cleveland in the 1930s, seems possible.
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:07.599
Is it likely?
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:09.119
I have no idea.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:13.119
But if this is raw, he doesn't emphasize it and he doesn't say it.
00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.039
So again, I find that odd.
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:22.240
Now, in the book, Price presents evidence of marked improvement in the dental health and physical health of the children in the study.
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:24.400
And I completely buy that this is the case.
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:24.799
Okay.
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:27.440
They were eating a very terrible diet before.
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:35.680
I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but it was like they were eating pancakes and like sweetened coffee and some seed oils.
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:41.039
Like it was pretty bad, even by our nutrient deficient standards of today.
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:41.599
Okay.
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:46.480
Nobody would look at that and say this is a very complete diet for growing children.
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:58.640
But it is important to emphasize that this intervention diet was not supposed to be, never designed to be, an optimal human diet.
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:09.680
Many of the foods were added to as efficiently as possible meet the nutrient gaps that Price assumed that they were missing, based on his understanding in the 1930s.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:13.759
This is a critically important point that is so often missed.
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:23.119
In the intro to this chapter on Africa, Price explains why studying traditional diets within the interior of the continent of Africa is so important.
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:31.920
He says quote, seafoods are within reach of the inhabitants of islands and coastal regions regardless of latitude.
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:40.559
The inhabitants of the interior of a continent, however, have not access to liberal supplies of various forms of animal life of the sea.
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:57.839
He goes on to say, and here's what's important, it was important, therefore, in the interest of the inhabitants of the United States, Canada, Europe, and other large continental interiors to study primitive people living under conditions similar to theirs.
00:26:58.079 --> 00:26:59.039
End quote.
00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:01.039
Now did you catch that?
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:11.519
Price is essentially saying that a lot of people in the US, Canada, and Europe don't have access to seafood because they live in the interior of the country.
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:15.359
So studying people in, say, Central Africa, hugely important.
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:18.880
Keep this in mind, this is the 1930s.
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:24.559
Access to refrigeration, even in developed countries like the United States, is spotty at this point.
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:50.240
Foods like cod liver oil, grass-fed butter, bone broth, whole milk would have been foods that would have A, provided many of the fat-soluble activators like vitamin A, D, K2, while at the same time being accessible and relatively affordable for people in many parts of the United States, Canada, and Europe, countries just coming out of a Great Depression.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:28:06.000
I will emphasize again, this was never intended to be an optimal human diet, but an efficient way to replicate some of the success of what Price had discovered within a set of constraints of the 1930s.
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:11.920
And many of these constraints are no longer an issue for the average American today.
00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:24.640
For someone living in the center of the United States in Price's day, without access to refrigeration and modern shipping and trucking, would have been very limited in their ability to, say, consume fresh seafood as an example.
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:36.559
This is one of the main reasons Price studies the traditional diets of Central Africa, like the Maasai, to learn how they were building and maintaining good bodies without access to seafoods.
00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:38.720
Now, why is that significant?
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:40.640
Why are seafoods significant here?
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:43.200
You'll notice that he mentions it a couple of times.
00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:50.319
Well, that brings me to point number two, something that is often missed when discussing Price's work.
00:28:50.480 --> 00:29:07.599
In fact, I've never heard anyone discuss it, which is if Price were to pick an optimal human diet, it would likely be pescatarian, a diet rich in marine foods or what price often refers to as plants and animals of the sea, right?
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:08.880
Something to that effect.
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:12.960
Now, how many people who promote the work of Dr.
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:13.680
Weston A.
00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:15.599
Price have you heard point that out?
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:19.440
And why am I willing to say that with confidence?
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:36.480
Well, in part, it's because of what I just pointed out that Price's intervention diet, that's my words here, is designed in an attempt to overcome what Price recognizes as constraints with respect to optimal human nutrition in a diet devoid of seafood.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:38.799
That's why Central Africa is so important.
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:45.200
But it's also because of what Price writes about the individual people that he studies.
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:57.839
There's no doubt that Price has high praise for the health and vitality of all the people that he studies who are following their traditional diets, including, say, the Maasai, who essentially live on a diet of milk and blood.
00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:58.160
Okay.
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:06.160
They bloodled the cows, add the blood to the milk, mix that together, and that makes up a good chunk of their nutrition.
00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:10.559
The photos in all these cases speak for themselves.
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:15.039
But I will say that after reading price, and I know it's a big ass, right?
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:17.680
It's a 500-page book, but a lot of pictures too.
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:18.160
Okay.
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:29.119
But there is no doubt that the highest praise is reserved for those consuming what price refers to as liberal quantities of animals and plants of the sea, right?
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:30.240
Something to that effect.
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.400
In other words, people who are basically pescatarian.
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:36.079
Now don't take my word for it.
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:37.279
Okay, let's hear from Dr.
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:40.400
Price himself and come to your own conclusions.
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:42.640
I've got a few here.
00:30:43.119 --> 00:31:04.000
The first, quote, My previous studies have shown that wherever groups of people were utilizing seafoods abundantly in connection with land plants, including roots, greens, and fruits, they enjoyed fine physical development with uniform reproduction of the racial pattern and a very high immunity to dental caries.
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:05.279
End quote.
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:07.119
Okay, did you catch that?
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:20.079
Wherever, every time, every time he sees people that are using seafoods in conjunction with a few things that can be found on land, fine physical development, et cetera, et cetera, right?
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:27.440
And of course, we've got to remember price is writing in the 1930s, so the way he's putting things would be a bit different than the way we put them today, right?
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:28.720
But this is high praise.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:29.759
Okay, but that's not all.
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:49.440
He says of the Maori in New Zealand, quote, the Maori race developed a knowledge of nature's law and adopted a system of living in harmony with those laws to so high a degree that they were able to build what was reported by early scientists to be the most physically perfect race living on the face of Earth.
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:58.319
They accomplished this largely through diet and a system of social organization designed to provide a high degree of perfection in their offspring.
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:03.279
To do this, they utilized foods from the sea very liberally.
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:04.720
End quote.
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:05.519
Okay.
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:09.680
The most physically perfect race on the face of the earth.
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:11.279
Okay, this is high praise.
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:17.759
Now I know that Price isn't saying this directly, but he did include this in his book, and he made mention of it.
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:21.759
So clearly it's a point that he at least agrees with on some level.
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.920
And these are far from the only quotes.
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:31.200
There are many other areas, groups that are using seafoods, and Price has praise that is very, very similar.
00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:32.960
Okay, I'll give you one more.
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:46.400
In as much as a 1930s dentist can gush about a subject, okay, Price gushes about a particularly impressive tribe in Kenya living largely on seafood, with physiques he describes as quote, magnificent.
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:46.880
Okay.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:59.119
He says, quote, the government of Kenya has for several years sponsored an athletic contest among the various tribes, the test being one of strength, for which they use a tug of war.
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:03.200
One particular tribe has carried off the trophy repeatedly.
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:09.279
This tribe resides on the east coast of Lake Victoria and lives very largely on fish.
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.720
The members are powerful athletes and wonderful swimmers.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:17.839
They are said not to have been conquered in warfare when they could take the warfare to the water.
00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:21.440
He then goes on to say their physiques are magnificent.
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:22.319
End quote.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:31.680
And there are many, many other quotes like this, from the native Alaskans eating a diet consisting mostly of salmon to coastal aborigines of Australia.
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:43.680
If there were one food that I am quite sure that Price would view as maybe the most important food when constructing or considering the optimal human diet, it would be seafood.
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:50.079
And most people, including many of his modern day fans, have missed this point completely.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:52.480
So let's move on to point number three.
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:53.039
Dr.
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:53.920
Weston A.
00:33:54.079 --> 00:33:57.200
Price did not debunk plant-based diets.
00:33:57.839 --> 00:33:59.200
Now I know, I know.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:33:59.759
Dr.
00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:04.480
Price's name is often invoked in the quote, debunking of plant-based diets.
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:11.119
And there is no doubt that Price himself did not view plant-based diets at the time as health promoting.
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:12.559
Okay, not a fan.
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:18.960
But is Price's work the slam dunk against plant-based diets that many of his fans think it is?
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:22.159
And in short, no, it isn't.
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:33.440
Unlike raw versus pasteurized, the benefits of fermentation, in which Price's views are not explicit, Price does explicitly address plant-based diets twice, okay?
00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:35.760
Two times in about 500 pages.
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:40.559
Now the quotes aren't super long, so I'll give you them both and then we'll unpack them.
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:52.239
The first quote It is significant that I, as of yet, have found no group that was building and maintaining good bodies exclusively on plant foods.
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:57.039
A number of groups are endeavoring to do so with marked evidence of failure.
00:34:57.280 --> 00:35:03.440
The variety of animal foods available has varied widely in some groups and has been limited in others.
00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:04.719
End quote.
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:05.599
Okay?
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.039
So that's the first one.
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:12.320
Again, seems like a slam dunk, but let me go through the second one and then let's break them down together.
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:23.679
Quote, as of yet, I have not found a single group of primitive racial stock which was building and maintaining excellent bodies by living entirely on plant foods.
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:33.599
I have found many parts of the world's most devout representatives of modern ethical systems advocating the restrictions of foods to the vegetable products.
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:51.440
In every instance where groups involved had been under this teaching, I have found evidence of degeneration in the form of dental caries and in the new generation in the form of abnormal dental arches to an extent very much higher than in primitive groups which were not under this influence.
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:52.639
End quote.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:53.840
Okay.
00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:56.159
So these are very powerful statements.
00:35:56.559 --> 00:36:02.079
And it's interesting to know that there were people advocating for plant-based diets back in the 1930s.
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:06.000
This is certainly not a modern or a new innovation.
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:09.199
And these quotes seem somewhat definitive.
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:16.079
But why do I say that despite how definitive these statements are, he doesn't debunk plant-based diets?
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:20.239
And the answer is because he doesn't provide any evidence.
00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:21.840
And I mean none.
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:27.440
That is the full totality of Price's point about plant-based diets.
00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:32.719
We don't get a single picture of any of the people in any of these plant-based groups.
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:38.159
We don't get a chart with any number of dental caries, dental cavities in the plant-based groups.
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:40.880
We don't even get a name for any of these groups.
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:44.800
What they're eating, I mean, it's just it's just nothing.
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:47.519
Just a claim with no evidence.
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:59.599
When he says, as of yet, I have not found a single group of primitive racial stock which was building and maintaining excellent bodies by living entirely on plant foods, what exactly does this mean?
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:05.199
That he found primitive races attempting to live on plant foods with poor health and poor outcomes?
00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:08.159
Or that he attempted to find any but didn't.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.519
Even that statement in and of itself isn't clear.
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:19.039
He does go on to reference some modern advocates of a plant-based diet and claims that their results have been pretty terrible.
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:27.840
But again, not only do we not get a shred of evidence to back up this claim, not a single group named, but it's also a compared to what?
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:34.239
We're talking about a modern diet, modern plant-based diet of the 1930s.
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:41.599
The standard diet of the 1930s, if we were to use how we would describe it today, was admittedly terrible, right?
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:46.239
Basically processed flour, seed oils, jams, sugar, and canned goods.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:49.840
How did the plant-based version of that diet fare?
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:52.800
I would assume pretty terribly as well.
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:58.559
My point is not to say that Price is wrong about plant-based diets of the 1930s.
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:00.320
He probably is right.
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:04.400
And you're probably inclined to agree with him if you're a fan of his work.
00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:08.559
But as a thought experiment, consider the following.
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:25.039
Suppose some plant-based doctor presented a similar case in which he or she claimed that after studying a number of populations, that he or she had not found any evidence of any group following a mixed or animal-based diet with immunity to cancer.
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:31.599
No evidence provided, no list of groups, just a bold claim with no evidence.
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:42.960
I mean, they might be right, they might not be, but if we're trying to be honest and fair-minded, regardless of our own bias, statements like that would lead to more questions than answers.
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:45.760
Now, is Price right about plant-based diets?
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:47.280
Maybe, maybe not.
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:53.760
Okay, but the case that he has presented, at least in the version of the book that I have, is just so incredibly weak.
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:54.800
Okay, it just is.
00:38:54.960 --> 00:39:02.480
If we're being honest and the shoe we're on the other foot, I don't think that it would be fair to say that price debunked plant-based diets.
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:02.960
Okay.
00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:06.800
Maybe I'm missing something, uh, but that's my two cents here.
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:09.280
Let's talk one more.
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:14.960
And this one is not so much a misconception as it is a surprise that price's views are not made explicit.
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:18.800
I've hinted toward this, and that's on the topic of alcohol.
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:27.440
Now, at the time of this recording, alcohol consumption in the United States and many other places in the developed world is in the midst of a decline.
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:35.199
From 2021 to 2025, the total consumption of alcohol in the United States dropped by about 8%.
00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:51.440
A majority of Americans, now 53% according to Gallup, now believe that even moderate drinking can be harmful, with some of the biggest drops among young people, a group which historically has been strong consumers of alcohol.
00:39:52.320 --> 00:40:00.880
We are in the midst of a potential sea change when it comes to the health implications and our understanding of the health implications of alcohol.
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:16.239
So if a price, so if a study like prices were done today, there's no doubt that topics like alcohol, diabetes, obesity would have been noted by the researchers, like topics that are very important from the perspective of what we're dealing with today.
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:19.440
But here's the thing: prices writing in the 1930s.
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:25.920
Again, this is just after the end of Prohibition, which occurred from 1920 to 1933.
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:38.960
And although Price's timeline is really, unfortunately, not very detailed, we do know that his travels to the isolated Swiss happened in 1933, the year of the end of Prohibition.
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:41.519
And Price barely mentions alcohol at all.
00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:43.760
Something I just find odd.
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:49.920
A quick search in the Kindle version has the term alcohol, actually alcoholic, showing up twice.
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:53.039
Okay, and it's not in reference to traditional populations.
00:40:53.280 --> 00:41:02.559
This is in reference to, I guess, sperm quality and his more commentary on culture and juvenile delinquency, et cetera, et cetera.
00:41:03.760 --> 00:41:08.639
So we're not talking about alcohol as problematic in and of itself.
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:15.280
The word wine occurs five times, mostly in reference to the isolated Swiss.
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:21.360
And it's not clear whether Price's views on wine or alcohol are harmful or helpful.
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:25.840
Again, it's just surprising and a bit odd given the subject and the time.
00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:30.480
I think we can make some assumptions about Price's position based on what we know.
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:34.159
Sure, and this I think the same probably does go for raw dairy.
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:38.000
And if I'm being honest, with time, probably sourdough bread.
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:40.400
Okay, I don't mean to pick on people's sourdough bread.
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:42.320
But I think you get my point here.
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:44.559
I am a massive believer in.
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:50.079
As best you can, read the actual sources, and what you find may surprise you.
00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:55.280
What other people choose to emphasize may be very different than the impression that you get.
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:56.000
Reading Dr.
00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:56.800
Weston A.
00:41:56.880 --> 00:42:08.320
Price is one of the things that personally convinced me to incorporate the use of seafoods into my diet, okay, and to incorporate the use of even some more exotic foods, like cod liver, the actual cod liver, right?
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:14.079
Not cod liver oil, because that's what Price finds that people on his studies are actually eating.
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:18.079
Now, what your conclusions may be might be entirely different.
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:23.119
Am I saying that Price would not have believed in raw dairy if he were alive today?
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:24.400
No, I don't think so.
00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:26.960
I think he probably would view it as very helpful.
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:35.760
But what I want to point out and really emphasize here is that the things that are often missed in the conversation about Dr.
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:36.559
West and A.
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:48.320
Price are what people are what keep people focused on this very narrow set of foods that, while helpful, might not actually be the most helpful foods that price would point to if he were alive today.
00:42:48.559 --> 00:42:55.199
They were based on a set of constraints, constraints of the 1930s, never designed to be an optimal human diet.
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:04.719
And if we are living in a world that is free from those constraints, or at least many of them, the question is, what would we do?
00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:07.840
What would Price do or suggest if he were alive today?
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:13.760
And I'm betting that his recommendations would look much, much different than those promoting his work today.
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:15.599
Just my two cents.
00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:18.639
Okay, let's go ahead and wrap up for today.
00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:20.559
As always, thank you for the listen.
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:26.960
If you are enjoying the show, please like, share, subscribe, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and now YouTube.
00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:28.559
Okay, YouTube channel is up.
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:30.559
Unconditional with Norby Schickle.
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:32.159
Definitely go check that out.
00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:36.000
Uh I've got limited video at this point, uh, but for sure, check that out.
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:37.760
And more to come on that as well.
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:40.079
Thanks, and I'll see you again next week.
