Nix: How many men have to know something is wrong before somebody decides to do something about it? One, ten, fifty? And what happens when everybody looks around the room and assumes somebody else will be the one to speak? We wanted to talk about three cases that are very different from one another. Giselle Pellicoe, Jeffrey Epstein and the allegations surrounding the Cornell students. They're not the same story. They're not the same circumstances. And in the Cornell case, allegations remain allegations while the investigation continues. But they leave us with a really uncomfortable question. What happens to women when men's sexual entitlement isn't checked? Not just by the law, but by friends, by families, by institutions, and by other men. And by all the little cultural messages that tell us to minimise, excuse, doubt, laugh or f- or simply look away. because when nobody checks the behaviour, somebody still pays the price. And historically that somebody has very often been women. Tans. I don't know if you have an initial view what we're talking about today.
Tons: My initial view would be we think we need to go and live on a planet with our own
Nix: It's very tempting, isn't it? To take that view.
Tons: That's how I've been feeling. That's how I've been feeling this whole week since the relegations. This sense of despair and outrage and just plain old rage. I came up with an idea of how to punish these... these men who are involved. people who have been actually found guilty. that is, that is to...
Nix: I'm assuming it's more than writing essays.
Tons: slightly. So I know this is going to sound harsh but if you think about it twice. That's what I'm asking, think about it twice. Is I think that these men should be locked up in a prison with the jail cell door left open and drug them and film them being assaulted and put that on the internet. When I thought of this myself, I thought, wow, that's a really harsh punishment. But then I thought about it again and I thought the punishment fits the crime. This is what should happen to them. That was my first thought.
Nix: I
Tons: I don't know what you felt.
Nix: my first instinct when I really started considering the scale of this issue was hopelessness. 2026.
Tons: Yeah, despair.
Nix: Yeah, we're in 2026. And. The messaging up until very recently has been that things are getting better for women, that our rights are more certain, and that we are able to speak out and report things like rape. The rape laws have been changed. And yet we find ourselves still in the same situation, if not worse, because the entitlement seems to have
Tons: Yeah, I would say it's worse.
Nix: got worse.
Tons: I think it's because we have come to understand that powerful men have been doing this all along with no consequences, all of this information has come to light and it means that boys and men are well aware of the fact that there was no consequences. There is
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: no societal or legal consequences for this behaviour which in essence is permission which is terrifying
Nix: exactly it. I would go a little step further than what you've just said because you mentioned powerful men, but I think that if you take these, three. places. I don't think that it excludes ordinary men.
Tons: No, no, it's not the powerful men that are the problem. The problem is that powerful men have got away with it and it's been in the press and that everybody is aware that there no consequences and now it means that ordinary people are going to be even more
Nix: I see what you mean.
Tons: subject. There's no examples being made. There's no consequences. It's because they are powerful that they've been in the press. If they can get away with it then anyone can get away with it and it's almost like saying it's okay to do this. even the most
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: powerful men, who we should be holding to a higher standard, even those ones, those ones with the spotlight shining on them, get away with it. The guy who's in the back row in the dark, he has no worries of ever being caught. No one's looking
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: at him. it's terrifying being a woman today.
Nix: it's very worrying, this trend that we seem to be seeing. I think part of the problem is that this sexual entitlement on a spectrum ranges pressuring somebody and thinking, well, if I asking, give in. Two. she's drunk but she'll be fine. further on in that spectrum is, well, she didn't say no. And then, well, she's my wife. All the way to, she's unconscious, but I'm going to go for it anyway. The behavior. in that spectrum is increasingly extreme, but the idea boils down to my desire matters more than her autonomy, consent or discomfort. I want it so I'm going to do what I want to do and justify it. And the problem is when people around. don't interrupt that cycle of thought. When people don't interrupt the things at the beginning of that spectrum, it just-
Tons: Yeah. So, I know what you're saying. the idea is that there are few people who are the perpetrators of this crime. And then there are the people who said nothing. And where on that spectrum does every man fall?
Nix: Yeah, but I also think that, there might be a few exceptions to this and we're talking about psychopaths or, sociopaths being the exceptions, but the majority of those men will have started at the lower end of that spectrum. So the
Tons: Yep.
Nix: question is, we been able to prevent awful lot of harm if they had been interrupted?
Tons: Yeah.
Nix: at beginning of that spectrum been,
Tons: Absolutely. The problem is,
Nix: is the problem.
Tons: in a group of men talking together, someone throws in a joke about sexually assaulting somebody and nobody in the room says anything. That person then perceives that as permission to take that one step further. Whereas if somebody in that very first instance said, hey dude, that is not right. then there would have been an awareness of some social consequence or some way of saying that that behaviour is not going to be tolerated and that there will be consequences. this type of thought, this exploration of an activity is halted in that moment, The harm may never have come around. The problem is that when you get to the other end of that exploration, it's too late. Somebody has already had their lives turned completely and utterly upside down and destroyed.
Nix: Yeah. You think that in the majority of cases... The men who perpetrate these crimes, I don't think that they go around thinking that they are evil. And I wonder what psychology you have to have that makes them think that what they're doing is acceptable enough to participate in. I environment do we have to be providing for people to, in the case of Giselle Pelico, to have an unconscious woman before you and still. Participate. What do you have to tell yourself? for that to be okay in your own mind.
Tons: I think that the crime here is twofold. First of all, there's the people who actually went through this crime. this is something you have to be a certain type of person. But the crime is also in not reporting it. I think there's two different types of psychology we're talking about. The one is that you don't want to rock the boat, you don't want to be the outsider, you assume somebody else is going to do the reporting. have called the ambulance, somebody else would, so.
Nix: It's that diffusion of responsibility, isn't it? Someone else will
Tons: that so there's that.
Nix: do it, I don't have to get involved.
Tons: Yeah, so that's a whole different type of psychology to the psychology of the person who's actually committed the crime and how they decriminalize it to themselves, rationalize it. That's different. think, like as you say, outside of sociopathy and psychopathy. There must be a thought pattern that involves somebody else was doing it. It was okay because I wasn't the first. There is a lot, I mean it would be impossible to unpack how people rationalize that. to themselves. no real harm was done, no one was killed, you know, she didn't even know what was happening, so how could I have, damaged that, I didn't, leave a mark that sort of thing. I think the wider problem is why society is turning itself inside out to excuse this behaviour, to provide an environment where this could happen.
Nix: how many moments were where there was an opportunity somebody stop it. that, exactly,
Tons: Well, there was plenty of opportunities, I just didn't do it.
Nix: mean, it's hundreds and hundreds of moments were missed and someone was... HOMED. over and over again. just worry that set up a system and a society that hundreds of opportunities not taken.
Tons: It's a huge problem.
Nix: And there was a choice in every single one of those moments. It was a choice.
Tons: Yeah.
Nix: I can do something or I can do nothing. I understand that someone is being harmed.
Tons: think that
Nix: and I can still choose to do nothing.
Tons: here we have an issue where you say someone and we're talking about somebody thinking about another person as a person. But I think that we have to acknowledge that women are not always thought of as equal people. And so when we say someone was harmed, It means something different when you say a woman was harmed compared to a man was harmed.
Nix: people would have stepped in if, I think more people would have stepped
Tons: That's the sad reality. If it was a man.
Nix: in if it was a dog.
Tons: I think that's true. Sadly, I think that is true. I think that
Nix: which is completely outrageous.
Tons: the emergency services would have been inundated with phone calls if a dog was being harmed.
Nix: Yep.
Tons: and I do not think that man in the same position would have had the... the same level of harm for a start because another man would find it very difficult to harm another man in that way to degrade, to demean, to dehumanize somebody in such a way. I think it's highly unlikely unless it was like a war situation yeah, I think that the fact that this was harm that was done to a woman. is the fundamental problem. Yeah, I think that the problem when it comes to psychology is that people do not value women. They do not
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: believe women when they speak. They do not take that their futures are going to be affected in the same way because their futures aren't as valuable.
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: The lives that they're going to have, the contributions that they're going to make to society are not deemed as important.
Nix: Mm, that's heartbreaking, isn't it? I think, in the Pelico case, I can't remember exactly how many of those men were convicted. I think it was 50 something, wasn't But those were only the people who were convicted.
Tons: But there were hundreds more, there were hundreds more men who were
Nix: yeah. And
Tons: but didn't do anything.
Nix: what I find particularly devastating is that The reason that Dominic Pelico was caught was because he was upskirting somebody in a public place and was reported. And that is the only reason that the police investigated and, and found out what had been going on. it wasn't because any of those men were aware spoke up and said anything. So. what is it about that situation? If you become aware of it, you don't partake in it even maybe, but you don't report it. So think there's a big question about. is it kind of a male-to-male loyalty thing Is it pure misogyny? Like you said, maybe women aren't full people. it's easier to ignore.
Tons: I think it's complicated but
Nix: I don't... think it is,
Tons: If you take each of the complications and you examine them, each one of them would fall down on their I am at a loss, personally, and like you say, in a state of despair. Just when you think that were getting better, it turns out that that was something that we were being sold that wasn't true. and maybe even getting worse. It feels hostile in a way that before felt... difficult. The issue of women's rights, of women's gender equality. It felt hard work, But it feels hostile, literally as if the efforts towards creating a better environment for everyone. has generated so much hate from men that we are now in a position where it's directed attacks. And that just maybe
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: that's why I'm feeling this weak because of the news as a culmination of all of these things, but it doesn't feel good at all.
Nix: no, it doesn't. And, I remember us having a similar conversation, probably more than a year ago now. we'd had all the Epstein stuff and then all the Helico stuff had come out. And I remember us discussing, the fact that it wasn't just this Epstein class that they they had been talking about on the news and that actually in in the Pellico trial, those people were very ordinary men. They were neighbours and the postie, and the dentist. remember at that time thinking, you know, this is really, very upsetting because it's much easier if you can just put those bad people in a box and you don't have to then confront it because those are not people in my life.
Tons: Yeah, like you said, it's one thing when you look at the Epstein files and all the people that involved with that or potentially involved and you see that they're all wealthy people, they are all powerful. and that doesn't touch my life because that's far away
Nix: Hmm.
Tons: and I will never move in circles like that that kind of... salacious, over consumption, I am too powerful and no one can touch me behaviour. But when you
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: see it's your tradesman, it's your carpenter, it's the plumber, when you see it's ordinary people and that it can touch your life, that it could happen to any woman And
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: if you add into that Epstein and Giselle Pellico and the Rape Academy and the whole Motherless website. 20,000 women are on that website. proof again that none of us are safe.
Nix: into our circle, so.
Tons: It's not a small group of people. It could happen to anyone anywhere. It's not just one place geographically or socially. It's everywhere. And we still
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: have backlash and the whole it's not all men argument is driving me crazy.
Nix: Yeah, I know. It's such a weird reaction, isn't it? I mean... nobody has ever said it's all men. And so I, do struggle to understand what that's all about. But I am more aware now than ever before that that argument just distracts from women who have actually been harmed. And then we start having a conversation about, we didn't mean all men or I didn't mean you. And so The conversation is completely diverted from what's actually important. which is the victim of the crime.
Tons: Yes, that's it.
Nix: impatient with the not all men argument. I don't want to engage in that anymore. Nobody has ever
Tons: I know. No.
Nix: said all men.
Tons: And it's making the conversation about something completely different. When I hear a man say, it's not all men, hear defensiveness. I hear that that man himself feels attacked by something... that we weren't even talking about. It's like no one accused you, no one said you did it. And why are we suddenly talking about you? When we were talking about the victim of this crime, that's who the conversation was about. It wasn't about you, mate.
Nix: yeah exactly. We were never talking about you.
Tons: And why is it all men seem to feel personally attacked that they are the victims of this discussion? It's like, this conversation was never about you. It was always about the victims of these crimes.
Nix: Yeah. And, the perpetrators. That's who, you know, we should be talking about the perpetrators. Yeah.
Tons: And those perpetrators, them specifically, not you. I have a theory, if you don't mind, about the
Nix: No, carry on.
Tons: not all men argument and the defensiveness that you experience. It's because I feel that most men have at some time in their past had thoughts or done things that they might feel ashamed of in the current environment. They might have said something, they might have joked about something, they might have not said something when they should have said something and they feel guilty about it. So that's where the defensiveness comes from. think that instead of reacting with curiosity or with reflection or with their hands up and said, hey, feel bad
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: because I didn't say something when somebody made a joke in the locker room and I should have said something. But instead of taking that responsibility, it's triggered in them a sense of guilt, That's my theory.
Nix: No, I get it. It kind of changes the dynamic of the conversation, doesn't it? It means that men's discomfort becomes the more urgent thing to deal with rather than the women's suffering.
Tons: Yep. Yep. I think that that's what that argument is about. But like you said, this is not that.
Nix: No. No.
Tons: So despite the fact that there is a discussion about it's not all men, we know this, but it is a lot of men.
Nix: It is a lot of men. I think the vast majority of men are good men. I think they would see themselves as good men. I think if we could alleviate that sense of discomfort whenever one of these horrific incidents happens and make men understand that when these things happen women are outraged. okay to sit with that discomfort you don't need to defend it.
Tons: Yeah.
Nix: We're also very uncomfortable with what's happened.
Tons: Yes.
Nix: but I do think that, would do men and women a lot of good if that defensiveness just. went away. because no woman having this conversation is accusing all men of anything at all and chances of people who are perpetrating these crimes listening to me on this little podcast, are very, very small. So the chances are we are not talking about you, whoever you are, listening to this podcast. We are talking about the perpetrators of these crimes and When we say men committed this crime, that is factually true. We're not saying all men committed this crime, we are just saying men did this. I have found really
Tons: So, ooh.
Nix: interesting this theme of defensiveness in the recent reporting about the incidents at Cornell University, there's so many men who've got onto the socials and, said, what did she think was going to happen? if she, went to a frat house or that she was, drunk. and Yeah, disheartening.
Tons: Yeah, because I have also been reading some interesting takes on that. She was drunk, she took drugs, she willingly participated in doing that and maybe she even, was hoping for a sexual encounter of some kind. I don't know. But an interesting take on it is what if we asked that about a young man? What did he think was going to happen? What
Nix: Hmm.
Tons: did he think if he hoped for a sexual encounter and passes out drunk? in a group of women, what does he think is going to happen? If you ask exactly the same question, what do you think the answer would be? How would women treat a man in exactly the same position? Because as far as I can tell, most women would have covered him up with a blanket and left him in note with a glass of water.
Nix: Yeah, put him in the recovery position. Make sure he doesn't choke.
Tons: I think the worst thing, yeah exactly, they might have called his mum.
Nix: Mm.
Tons: They might even have gone as far as drawing on his face with a Sharpie or putting make-up on or nail polish or they might have even taken his clothes and hid them.
Nix: Yeah. It's same, same, same
Tons: It's not the same.
Nix: circumstance, completely different outcomes.
Tons: So when people ask the question, what did she think was going to happen? I just think, what did he think was going to happen? Because that should have been what happened to her. She should have been left with a blanket and a glass of water and maybe someone phoned her mum or maybe they'd drawn her face. That is what is the worst thing that she should have thought was going to happen. That is the expectation. That is the standard, in my opinion. And yet the
Nix: Yeah. it's some.
Tons: reality is not.
Nix: No. And even more disgusting than that is the fact that there were all these men on the internet placing responsibility for what happened on her.
Tons: Yeah. But I would ask those men one simple question. those men that did that to her who get to carry on with their lives. If any of those men was put in a position of care on one of their relatives, how would they feel about that? If one of those men went on to be a doctor, a surgeon, a dentist, a care worker, a nurse,
Nix: one of them wasn't pre-made, wasn't they?
Tons: how would you like that person to be either your doctor your daughter's doctor, your sister's doctor, your wife's doctor, anytime when somebody you loved was incapacitated and vulnerable, would you want that person in charge? And I would ask the same question for the 50 men who did nothing. How would you one of them was in charge a vulnerable person, They cannot be trusted. So the same man who's standing there defending them, would you like that man to be your child's doctor? Would you like that man to be your wife's doctor? When your wife is unconscious, she's having her teeth
Nix: Yeah, I there
Tons: And what we're talking about is Ivy League University here. From very well-connected families, there is a good chance that either one of those seven or the 50 that didn't report it will end up in a position of power or end up in a position where they are in control of vulnerable people. Making decisions. about people in their care. There's a good chance. feel about that? I don't understand how anyone can defend it.
Nix: and yet there seems to be no shortage of defence. seems to be no shortage of the, the outcry around false allegations or the defence attorney deciding not to investigate, the police deciding not to investigate further. You know, these are all
Tons: Well, maybe that's because in times district attorney and those policemen, maybe they were doing something similar when they were at university.
Nix: Maybe, but I think it's more about upholding the status quo. These are all bright young men. We don't want to ruin their futures. I think they're more comfortable with sacrificing that girl than harming the futures of these young Ivy League men.
Tons: Well, hopefully, now that everyone is aware of it, no thanks to the people who try to protect them. I'm hoping that their lives will be not the ones that they had planned for or hoped for. In my opinion, it's not enough. The fact their names are out there and that they will never... hopefully be in a position where they get to make decisions over other people. But, you know, they
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: come from powerful, wealthy families, so what does that mean?
Nix: The chances are they probably will be.
Tons: is how we end up with paedophiles running the contra.
Nix: Or at least, Convicted Rapists. I wonder what it is about the environment we live in that shifts the burden of responsibility from the perpetrators to the victims when it comes to sexual assault. Because this doesn't happen in any other crime. It just seems to be isolated to sexual assault. I
Tons: problem with sexual assault is it's never about sex and it's always about power and control. And the assailant is usually somebody who is in a more powerful position. And we're talking generalizations here, obviously, but those... People are much likely to have their voices because they're louder, stronger, have more status, have more money the victim in these cases.
Nix: I don't think that's always the case. and I think
Tons: No.
Nix: that often it's not. think think about sexual assaults that happen at colleges or school, it's not that you've got one person in a position of power. It's generally just that there's a boy who assaulted a girl. So that I don't, I
Tons: Yeah, in that position he is stronger than she is. And he's a man and given the power balance, the men generally tend to win. It doesn't really matter which way you measure it. Boys are always going to be seen as the more powerful party. Because men are. and I'm not talking about physical strength here, even though it is a factor, but I'm talking about that a boy's word is taken to be more truthful than a woman's. that women have historically been made out to be exaggerating, emotional, complaining, whining. I mean, we could just go on and on throughout history about how women have just never been taken seriously. So
Nix: yeah.
Tons: I think that in that case, then you have the word of a boy or a man is going to be taken more seriously. But then if you...
Nix: I don't think it's even that. boy or the man's word is taken more seriously. I agree with you. I think that male voices tend to carry more weight than female voices. But I think even when there is evidence, even when they do believe that something happened and authorities believe that something happened. I still think that doesn't matter. because it will still be brushed under the carpet. It will still be managed away.
Tons: I think it's just because of the nature of the crime to some extent. There is a sense of shame, People don't talk about it enough. There's just not enough light in arena. It's just a difficult crime to prosecute, to discuss. considering that most sexual assaults are domestic. And something like 75, 72, 75 % are committed by somebody that the perpetrator knew that they, are scared that they're not going to be believed. are ashamed that they allowed this to happen. sometimes there isn't even any physical evidence. It's a hard crime
Nix: Yeah
Tons: to investigate. And I don't think that the police particularly like investigating. It's messy. It's difficult. It's lot of he said, she said, they said.
Nix: just thinking about like, you turned up at a police station and reported that someone stole your handbag, for example, I wouldn't expect the police start asking questions about, what were you doing that caused someone to steal your handbag? Yeah. And you can, you were telling, You know,
Tons: Where did you leave it? What time of the day were in the shop when it was stolen?
Nix: and if you had evidence of the person who stole in your handbag, wouldn't expect the
Tons: Are you sure it was stolen?
Nix: Yeah, were you sure you didn't just give it away? You know?
Tons: Did you not miscommunicate Are you sure
Nix: you know, the
Tons: you shouted loud enough? Stop thief. Did anyone hear you shouting, stop thief? I mean, I'm laughing and joking because it's ridiculous.
Nix: Yeah. Had you, had, if they, if they started asking you, well, what were you wearing when you, when someone stole your handbag? And had you had any
Tons: I'm still doing my bag.
Nix: drinks before someone stole
Tons: Yeah.
Nix: your handbag? it just wouldn't happen. It wouldn't happen. I don't know why it happens with sexual assault and I'm not saying that false allegations don't get made. We know they do.
Tons: They do.
Nix: We know they do. And I'm all for holding those people to account. And I think that they should be punished by the legal system if, if you make false allegations. it is absolutely so.
Tons: Well it's fraud isn't it, essential? You, you, yeah, you're making a...
Nix: I'm not excusing that at all, but I think that false allegations about stealing somebody's handbag, if somebody's reputation is harmed by that, that person making the false allegation should also be punished. And yet those crimes are treated completely differently. women who've experienced sexual assault have the burden of, explaining their behavior, explaining their clothing, explaining their alcohol consumption, why they were there, why they didn't leave, why they didn't say no, why they didn't report immediately. Why are they expected to manage the consequences of men's criminal behaviour.
Tons: the
Nix: I think that the judicial systems or, maybe the tend to treat all allegations as if they may be false and therefore they question the victim more than they would if somebody was reporting the stolen handbag for example or any other crime. They don't tend to treat those allegations by default as if they could be false. I think that the way that, the place and the legal system deals with sexual assault doesn't help either because I think that the majority of sexual assaults go absolutely unpunished.
Tons: people who get punished the most are the victims, which discourages them from reporting it.
Nix: So in the UK, less than 15 % of sexual assaults are reported according to the ONS. And of the reporter only 3 % of those lead to any conviction.
Tons: Convictions. So the idea of false allegations just seems a moot point, doesn't it? Because even when it isn't
Nix: It really does.
Tons: a false allegation, it's
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: still a very small chance that anything consequential is going to happen to the criminal.
Nix: Most of the perpetrators of sexual assault will get off scot-free. And I think
Tons: Yes. So, yeah.
Nix: if you're the kind of person who's inclined to commit sexual assault, your chances are pretty good that you're gonna get away with it.
Tons: and we come back around to let's just get all the women together and go live on another planet We wouldn't even
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: have to nuke this one because to be honest with you it 10 years and they will have nuked themselves.
Nix: Hmm. when I was looking into, those statistics. I think that the conclusion to that really is the legal system is not designed support any kind of deterrent. the only hope we have really is the cultures that we live in and making these sexual assaults so reputationally damaging that they're not worth doing.
Tons: I think the social consequences
Nix: Because the legals...
Tons: is the key here. I think
Nix: It is.
Tons: that, in order for that to happen, we need men to jump on board and say something disapproving when they hear something that makes them. that gives them the ick, that's a good word they hear something that gives them the ick say, hey dude, that's not cool. Or say something like, I'm not on board with that. Or I don't think that that's funny because it's the social consequences which will
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: have far greater impact than any legal consequences. The fact that
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: boys and men grow up and learn that other boys and men weren't tolerated, would be a game changer for women.
Nix: Yes, it absolutely would. And I think that the reason that we are where we are in this epidemic now is that that hasn't happened. And actually, we've got people in very powerful positions who have
Tons: being convicted of rape.
Nix: done these things have, yes, who have been convicted of rape.
Tons: traffic to young women.
Nix: Yeah. which as you said earlier in the episode, you've almost made it permissible. And, and, and certainly
Tons: Yep.
Nix: given the idea that there is no consequence, And the other part of that, that legal conversation is really that, even for those instances where they're has been a conviction. It almost doesn't, I mean it matters, but it doesn't undo anything. The harm has been done. someone may have been held accountable for don't think that we can make the law the answer this. by the time the law gets involved, it's too late.
Tons: Yes, the consequences have to be immediate and strong. And the weight of opinion has to be so much so it drives the shame. to the perpetrator because I think that some of the problem here is that the shame sits with the victim but we really need the shame to stick with the perpetrator that's where we need the shame to be we do not focus enough on that we need we need to shift the blame totally
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: onto the perpetrators of these crimes
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: We should not be asking questions about her behaviour. We should definitely be asking questions about the rapist's behaviour. What were they doing? What were they thinking? Why did they do that? the weight of public opinion needs to be on that. And we need to recruit men in order to do that. Not to stand by and not to act. not to wait for somebody else to call the police all the men and all the women to stand together and force this change. It's a social change
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: that we need.
Nix: You know, I want
Tons: I would like to point out here that this is not a problem for women to teach their sons. I don't like their narrative that this is a responsibility of women. Talk to your sons, explain to your sons what it's... No, it's gotta be mums and dads have to talk to their children honestly and explain the consequences and make sure that they understand that this is unacceptable in any form, even the smallest action, the smallest, joke, the laugh, the compliance. is all
Nix: Mm.
Tons: not acceptable. I would like for anyone who considers that any victim of sexual assault to get on with their lives. To keep in mind that Jane Doe, the victim of the Cornell 7, will never have a normal life. She will wake up sweating with nightmares and flashbacks. in 30 years time, in 40 years time, in 50 years time. She will never trust anyone. She may never have a family. Her life will actually be physically shortened by this because she will be afraid of the doctor. She will not seek medical help when she needs it. She will live in fear. Her cortisol, her inflammation, her actual physical health will suffer as a result of this. She will have years of therapy and then be okay and then have to have years of therapy again. She will think to herself, I want to die many times in her life. She will find the smallest challenges to be insurmountable, she will see threats everywhere she goes, she will jump at shadows, she will sleep with a knife under her bed, she will never be okay and she will never get on with her life. So any person who thinks that these young men, shouldn't have their lives affected and shouldn't have their lives upturned by a mistake should consider that because they deserve nothing less than that than what she's going to have to live with for the rest of her life and that is why
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: when I thought of a punishment that would suit the crime the only thing that would work would be the thing that they did to her and have that, that to live with for the rest of their lives. Her life
Nix: No.
Tons: is fundamentally different and she will live in a prison of her own making because of us.
Nix: Yeah, I agree with you in terms of the punishment that should be doled out because of the consequences to Jane Doe. But also in this case specifically, I reiterate that these are allegations, there has to be a trial and we'll see how all that falls out. in this situation I find particularly egregious and particularly worth the punishment that you described is the length of time. being victimised for that length of time is truly awful. those perpetrators carrying on length of time is not a mistake. It's not a drunken fumble.
Tons: that is not a mistake. That's not a misunderstanding that somebody didn't...
Nix: was, it's not a misunderstanding.
Tons: That's not like she said no but maybe she'd be in here. This is not what we're talking We're not talking about anything like that. This is
Nix: No.
Tons: not a lack of consent. This is the most horrendous crime.
Nix: that.
Tons: and they deserve nothing less than a life sentence in my opinion.
Nix: Yeah, agreed. Should they be found guilty.
Tons: Yes, and anybody else who has done that. And like we said, it's not just this one case that we're talking about. There are Jane Doe's all over the world. All you have to do is have a look at the MyBellas website.
Nix: Yeah, yeah, 62 million hits in a month. not a small problem.
Tons: No, it's not a small problem. So let me know when you find that habitable planet,
Nix: Yeah, I think we're all searching quite hard at this point.
Tons: I think we should all be looking for that habitable planet.
Nix: when we started this conversation, were asking the question about what happens when men's sexual entitlement isn't challenged and We've covered some fairly... heavy topics as examples of what happens. And the answer at the end of all of it is brutally simple. When men's sexual entitlement isn't challenged, pay the price. They pay when a man decides his desire matters more than their autonomy. when their friends decide that it's easier to look away. when loyalty to your mate or your fraternity becomes more important than confronting what's going on upstairs. They pay when powerful men are given the benefit of the doubt because challenging is dangerous to your career. when institutions become more concerned with managing their reputation than confronting an issue. and when we make women responsible for preventing. The Harm. So none of that means that every man is responsible for another man's behaviour. But every one of us has some responsibility for the environment in which that behaviour is allowed to flourish. sexual entitlement. isn't powerful only when someone commits an assault. It's powerful when everyone around it learns that challenging at more of a cost than tolerating it. So I want to be clear. We're not saying that every man is dangerous and we're not saying that every accusation is automatically true. We are saying that there are countless moments before, during and after sexual assault when someone can choose to challenge. And every time we choose silence, because speaking up is uncomfortable. We leave someone else, normally a woman, to carry the consequences. It's about the price of unchallenged entitlement and who ends up paying it.
Tons: So I'm going to end off this episode by saying stay safe everybody, look out for yourselves, look out for your family and as always lots of love from us.
Nix: of love. Bye.
Tons: Bye!
Nix: Thanks for spending time with us. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you'd subscribe, leave a review and share it with someone who'd enjoy the conversation. And remember, the stories we inherit don't have to become the stories we live by. See you next time.
Tons: My initial view would be we think we need to go and live on a planet with our own
Nix: It's very tempting, isn't it? To take that view.
Tons: That's how I've been feeling. That's how I've been feeling this whole week since the relegations. This sense of despair and outrage and just plain old rage. I came up with an idea of how to punish these... these men who are involved. people who have been actually found guilty. that is, that is to...
Nix: I'm assuming it's more than writing essays.
Tons: slightly. So I know this is going to sound harsh but if you think about it twice. That's what I'm asking, think about it twice. Is I think that these men should be locked up in a prison with the jail cell door left open and drug them and film them being assaulted and put that on the internet. When I thought of this myself, I thought, wow, that's a really harsh punishment. But then I thought about it again and I thought the punishment fits the crime. This is what should happen to them. That was my first thought.
Nix: I
Tons: I don't know what you felt.
Nix: my first instinct when I really started considering the scale of this issue was hopelessness. 2026.
Tons: Yeah, despair.
Nix: Yeah, we're in 2026. And. The messaging up until very recently has been that things are getting better for women, that our rights are more certain, and that we are able to speak out and report things like rape. The rape laws have been changed. And yet we find ourselves still in the same situation, if not worse, because the entitlement seems to have
Tons: Yeah, I would say it's worse.
Nix: got worse.
Tons: I think it's because we have come to understand that powerful men have been doing this all along with no consequences, all of this information has come to light and it means that boys and men are well aware of the fact that there was no consequences. There is
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: no societal or legal consequences for this behaviour which in essence is permission which is terrifying
Nix: exactly it. I would go a little step further than what you've just said because you mentioned powerful men, but I think that if you take these, three. places. I don't think that it excludes ordinary men.
Tons: No, no, it's not the powerful men that are the problem. The problem is that powerful men have got away with it and it's been in the press and that everybody is aware that there no consequences and now it means that ordinary people are going to be even more
Nix: I see what you mean.
Tons: subject. There's no examples being made. There's no consequences. It's because they are powerful that they've been in the press. If they can get away with it then anyone can get away with it and it's almost like saying it's okay to do this. even the most
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: powerful men, who we should be holding to a higher standard, even those ones, those ones with the spotlight shining on them, get away with it. The guy who's in the back row in the dark, he has no worries of ever being caught. No one's looking
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: at him. it's terrifying being a woman today.
Nix: it's very worrying, this trend that we seem to be seeing. I think part of the problem is that this sexual entitlement on a spectrum ranges pressuring somebody and thinking, well, if I asking, give in. Two. she's drunk but she'll be fine. further on in that spectrum is, well, she didn't say no. And then, well, she's my wife. All the way to, she's unconscious, but I'm going to go for it anyway. The behavior. in that spectrum is increasingly extreme, but the idea boils down to my desire matters more than her autonomy, consent or discomfort. I want it so I'm going to do what I want to do and justify it. And the problem is when people around. don't interrupt that cycle of thought. When people don't interrupt the things at the beginning of that spectrum, it just-
Tons: Yeah. So, I know what you're saying. the idea is that there are few people who are the perpetrators of this crime. And then there are the people who said nothing. And where on that spectrum does every man fall?
Nix: Yeah, but I also think that, there might be a few exceptions to this and we're talking about psychopaths or, sociopaths being the exceptions, but the majority of those men will have started at the lower end of that spectrum. So the
Tons: Yep.
Nix: question is, we been able to prevent awful lot of harm if they had been interrupted?
Tons: Yeah.
Nix: at beginning of that spectrum been,
Tons: Absolutely. The problem is,
Nix: is the problem.
Tons: in a group of men talking together, someone throws in a joke about sexually assaulting somebody and nobody in the room says anything. That person then perceives that as permission to take that one step further. Whereas if somebody in that very first instance said, hey dude, that is not right. then there would have been an awareness of some social consequence or some way of saying that that behaviour is not going to be tolerated and that there will be consequences. this type of thought, this exploration of an activity is halted in that moment, The harm may never have come around. The problem is that when you get to the other end of that exploration, it's too late. Somebody has already had their lives turned completely and utterly upside down and destroyed.
Nix: Yeah. You think that in the majority of cases... The men who perpetrate these crimes, I don't think that they go around thinking that they are evil. And I wonder what psychology you have to have that makes them think that what they're doing is acceptable enough to participate in. I environment do we have to be providing for people to, in the case of Giselle Pelico, to have an unconscious woman before you and still. Participate. What do you have to tell yourself? for that to be okay in your own mind.
Tons: I think that the crime here is twofold. First of all, there's the people who actually went through this crime. this is something you have to be a certain type of person. But the crime is also in not reporting it. I think there's two different types of psychology we're talking about. The one is that you don't want to rock the boat, you don't want to be the outsider, you assume somebody else is going to do the reporting. have called the ambulance, somebody else would, so.
Nix: It's that diffusion of responsibility, isn't it? Someone else will
Tons: that so there's that.
Nix: do it, I don't have to get involved.
Tons: Yeah, so that's a whole different type of psychology to the psychology of the person who's actually committed the crime and how they decriminalize it to themselves, rationalize it. That's different. think, like as you say, outside of sociopathy and psychopathy. There must be a thought pattern that involves somebody else was doing it. It was okay because I wasn't the first. There is a lot, I mean it would be impossible to unpack how people rationalize that. to themselves. no real harm was done, no one was killed, you know, she didn't even know what was happening, so how could I have, damaged that, I didn't, leave a mark that sort of thing. I think the wider problem is why society is turning itself inside out to excuse this behaviour, to provide an environment where this could happen.
Nix: how many moments were where there was an opportunity somebody stop it. that, exactly,
Tons: Well, there was plenty of opportunities, I just didn't do it.
Nix: mean, it's hundreds and hundreds of moments were missed and someone was... HOMED. over and over again. just worry that set up a system and a society that hundreds of opportunities not taken.
Tons: It's a huge problem.
Nix: And there was a choice in every single one of those moments. It was a choice.
Tons: Yeah.
Nix: I can do something or I can do nothing. I understand that someone is being harmed.
Tons: think that
Nix: and I can still choose to do nothing.
Tons: here we have an issue where you say someone and we're talking about somebody thinking about another person as a person. But I think that we have to acknowledge that women are not always thought of as equal people. And so when we say someone was harmed, It means something different when you say a woman was harmed compared to a man was harmed.
Nix: people would have stepped in if, I think more people would have stepped
Tons: That's the sad reality. If it was a man.
Nix: in if it was a dog.
Tons: I think that's true. Sadly, I think that is true. I think that
Nix: which is completely outrageous.
Tons: the emergency services would have been inundated with phone calls if a dog was being harmed.
Nix: Yep.
Tons: and I do not think that man in the same position would have had the... the same level of harm for a start because another man would find it very difficult to harm another man in that way to degrade, to demean, to dehumanize somebody in such a way. I think it's highly unlikely unless it was like a war situation yeah, I think that the fact that this was harm that was done to a woman. is the fundamental problem. Yeah, I think that the problem when it comes to psychology is that people do not value women. They do not
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: believe women when they speak. They do not take that their futures are going to be affected in the same way because their futures aren't as valuable.
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: The lives that they're going to have, the contributions that they're going to make to society are not deemed as important.
Nix: Mm, that's heartbreaking, isn't it? I think, in the Pelico case, I can't remember exactly how many of those men were convicted. I think it was 50 something, wasn't But those were only the people who were convicted.
Tons: But there were hundreds more, there were hundreds more men who were
Nix: yeah. And
Tons: but didn't do anything.
Nix: what I find particularly devastating is that The reason that Dominic Pelico was caught was because he was upskirting somebody in a public place and was reported. And that is the only reason that the police investigated and, and found out what had been going on. it wasn't because any of those men were aware spoke up and said anything. So. what is it about that situation? If you become aware of it, you don't partake in it even maybe, but you don't report it. So think there's a big question about. is it kind of a male-to-male loyalty thing Is it pure misogyny? Like you said, maybe women aren't full people. it's easier to ignore.
Tons: I think it's complicated but
Nix: I don't... think it is,
Tons: If you take each of the complications and you examine them, each one of them would fall down on their I am at a loss, personally, and like you say, in a state of despair. Just when you think that were getting better, it turns out that that was something that we were being sold that wasn't true. and maybe even getting worse. It feels hostile in a way that before felt... difficult. The issue of women's rights, of women's gender equality. It felt hard work, But it feels hostile, literally as if the efforts towards creating a better environment for everyone. has generated so much hate from men that we are now in a position where it's directed attacks. And that just maybe
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: that's why I'm feeling this weak because of the news as a culmination of all of these things, but it doesn't feel good at all.
Nix: no, it doesn't. And, I remember us having a similar conversation, probably more than a year ago now. we'd had all the Epstein stuff and then all the Helico stuff had come out. And I remember us discussing, the fact that it wasn't just this Epstein class that they they had been talking about on the news and that actually in in the Pellico trial, those people were very ordinary men. They were neighbours and the postie, and the dentist. remember at that time thinking, you know, this is really, very upsetting because it's much easier if you can just put those bad people in a box and you don't have to then confront it because those are not people in my life.
Tons: Yeah, like you said, it's one thing when you look at the Epstein files and all the people that involved with that or potentially involved and you see that they're all wealthy people, they are all powerful. and that doesn't touch my life because that's far away
Nix: Hmm.
Tons: and I will never move in circles like that that kind of... salacious, over consumption, I am too powerful and no one can touch me behaviour. But when you
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: see it's your tradesman, it's your carpenter, it's the plumber, when you see it's ordinary people and that it can touch your life, that it could happen to any woman And
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: if you add into that Epstein and Giselle Pellico and the Rape Academy and the whole Motherless website. 20,000 women are on that website. proof again that none of us are safe.
Nix: into our circle, so.
Tons: It's not a small group of people. It could happen to anyone anywhere. It's not just one place geographically or socially. It's everywhere. And we still
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: have backlash and the whole it's not all men argument is driving me crazy.
Nix: Yeah, I know. It's such a weird reaction, isn't it? I mean... nobody has ever said it's all men. And so I, do struggle to understand what that's all about. But I am more aware now than ever before that that argument just distracts from women who have actually been harmed. And then we start having a conversation about, we didn't mean all men or I didn't mean you. And so The conversation is completely diverted from what's actually important. which is the victim of the crime.
Tons: Yes, that's it.
Nix: impatient with the not all men argument. I don't want to engage in that anymore. Nobody has ever
Tons: I know. No.
Nix: said all men.
Tons: And it's making the conversation about something completely different. When I hear a man say, it's not all men, hear defensiveness. I hear that that man himself feels attacked by something... that we weren't even talking about. It's like no one accused you, no one said you did it. And why are we suddenly talking about you? When we were talking about the victim of this crime, that's who the conversation was about. It wasn't about you, mate.
Nix: yeah exactly. We were never talking about you.
Tons: And why is it all men seem to feel personally attacked that they are the victims of this discussion? It's like, this conversation was never about you. It was always about the victims of these crimes.
Nix: Yeah. And, the perpetrators. That's who, you know, we should be talking about the perpetrators. Yeah.
Tons: And those perpetrators, them specifically, not you. I have a theory, if you don't mind, about the
Nix: No, carry on.
Tons: not all men argument and the defensiveness that you experience. It's because I feel that most men have at some time in their past had thoughts or done things that they might feel ashamed of in the current environment. They might have said something, they might have joked about something, they might have not said something when they should have said something and they feel guilty about it. So that's where the defensiveness comes from. think that instead of reacting with curiosity or with reflection or with their hands up and said, hey, feel bad
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: because I didn't say something when somebody made a joke in the locker room and I should have said something. But instead of taking that responsibility, it's triggered in them a sense of guilt, That's my theory.
Nix: No, I get it. It kind of changes the dynamic of the conversation, doesn't it? It means that men's discomfort becomes the more urgent thing to deal with rather than the women's suffering.
Tons: Yep. Yep. I think that that's what that argument is about. But like you said, this is not that.
Nix: No. No.
Tons: So despite the fact that there is a discussion about it's not all men, we know this, but it is a lot of men.
Nix: It is a lot of men. I think the vast majority of men are good men. I think they would see themselves as good men. I think if we could alleviate that sense of discomfort whenever one of these horrific incidents happens and make men understand that when these things happen women are outraged. okay to sit with that discomfort you don't need to defend it.
Tons: Yeah.
Nix: We're also very uncomfortable with what's happened.
Tons: Yes.
Nix: but I do think that, would do men and women a lot of good if that defensiveness just. went away. because no woman having this conversation is accusing all men of anything at all and chances of people who are perpetrating these crimes listening to me on this little podcast, are very, very small. So the chances are we are not talking about you, whoever you are, listening to this podcast. We are talking about the perpetrators of these crimes and When we say men committed this crime, that is factually true. We're not saying all men committed this crime, we are just saying men did this. I have found really
Tons: So, ooh.
Nix: interesting this theme of defensiveness in the recent reporting about the incidents at Cornell University, there's so many men who've got onto the socials and, said, what did she think was going to happen? if she, went to a frat house or that she was, drunk. and Yeah, disheartening.
Tons: Yeah, because I have also been reading some interesting takes on that. She was drunk, she took drugs, she willingly participated in doing that and maybe she even, was hoping for a sexual encounter of some kind. I don't know. But an interesting take on it is what if we asked that about a young man? What did he think was going to happen? What
Nix: Hmm.
Tons: did he think if he hoped for a sexual encounter and passes out drunk? in a group of women, what does he think is going to happen? If you ask exactly the same question, what do you think the answer would be? How would women treat a man in exactly the same position? Because as far as I can tell, most women would have covered him up with a blanket and left him in note with a glass of water.
Nix: Yeah, put him in the recovery position. Make sure he doesn't choke.
Tons: I think the worst thing, yeah exactly, they might have called his mum.
Nix: Mm.
Tons: They might even have gone as far as drawing on his face with a Sharpie or putting make-up on or nail polish or they might have even taken his clothes and hid them.
Nix: Yeah. It's same, same, same
Tons: It's not the same.
Nix: circumstance, completely different outcomes.
Tons: So when people ask the question, what did she think was going to happen? I just think, what did he think was going to happen? Because that should have been what happened to her. She should have been left with a blanket and a glass of water and maybe someone phoned her mum or maybe they'd drawn her face. That is what is the worst thing that she should have thought was going to happen. That is the expectation. That is the standard, in my opinion. And yet the
Nix: Yeah. it's some.
Tons: reality is not.
Nix: No. And even more disgusting than that is the fact that there were all these men on the internet placing responsibility for what happened on her.
Tons: Yeah. But I would ask those men one simple question. those men that did that to her who get to carry on with their lives. If any of those men was put in a position of care on one of their relatives, how would they feel about that? If one of those men went on to be a doctor, a surgeon, a dentist, a care worker, a nurse,
Nix: one of them wasn't pre-made, wasn't they?
Tons: how would you like that person to be either your doctor your daughter's doctor, your sister's doctor, your wife's doctor, anytime when somebody you loved was incapacitated and vulnerable, would you want that person in charge? And I would ask the same question for the 50 men who did nothing. How would you one of them was in charge a vulnerable person, They cannot be trusted. So the same man who's standing there defending them, would you like that man to be your child's doctor? Would you like that man to be your wife's doctor? When your wife is unconscious, she's having her teeth
Nix: Yeah, I there
Tons: And what we're talking about is Ivy League University here. From very well-connected families, there is a good chance that either one of those seven or the 50 that didn't report it will end up in a position of power or end up in a position where they are in control of vulnerable people. Making decisions. about people in their care. There's a good chance. feel about that? I don't understand how anyone can defend it.
Nix: and yet there seems to be no shortage of defence. seems to be no shortage of the, the outcry around false allegations or the defence attorney deciding not to investigate, the police deciding not to investigate further. You know, these are all
Tons: Well, maybe that's because in times district attorney and those policemen, maybe they were doing something similar when they were at university.
Nix: Maybe, but I think it's more about upholding the status quo. These are all bright young men. We don't want to ruin their futures. I think they're more comfortable with sacrificing that girl than harming the futures of these young Ivy League men.
Tons: Well, hopefully, now that everyone is aware of it, no thanks to the people who try to protect them. I'm hoping that their lives will be not the ones that they had planned for or hoped for. In my opinion, it's not enough. The fact their names are out there and that they will never... hopefully be in a position where they get to make decisions over other people. But, you know, they
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: come from powerful, wealthy families, so what does that mean?
Nix: The chances are they probably will be.
Tons: is how we end up with paedophiles running the contra.
Nix: Or at least, Convicted Rapists. I wonder what it is about the environment we live in that shifts the burden of responsibility from the perpetrators to the victims when it comes to sexual assault. Because this doesn't happen in any other crime. It just seems to be isolated to sexual assault. I
Tons: problem with sexual assault is it's never about sex and it's always about power and control. And the assailant is usually somebody who is in a more powerful position. And we're talking generalizations here, obviously, but those... People are much likely to have their voices because they're louder, stronger, have more status, have more money the victim in these cases.
Nix: I don't think that's always the case. and I think
Tons: No.
Nix: that often it's not. think think about sexual assaults that happen at colleges or school, it's not that you've got one person in a position of power. It's generally just that there's a boy who assaulted a girl. So that I don't, I
Tons: Yeah, in that position he is stronger than she is. And he's a man and given the power balance, the men generally tend to win. It doesn't really matter which way you measure it. Boys are always going to be seen as the more powerful party. Because men are. and I'm not talking about physical strength here, even though it is a factor, but I'm talking about that a boy's word is taken to be more truthful than a woman's. that women have historically been made out to be exaggerating, emotional, complaining, whining. I mean, we could just go on and on throughout history about how women have just never been taken seriously. So
Nix: yeah.
Tons: I think that in that case, then you have the word of a boy or a man is going to be taken more seriously. But then if you...
Nix: I don't think it's even that. boy or the man's word is taken more seriously. I agree with you. I think that male voices tend to carry more weight than female voices. But I think even when there is evidence, even when they do believe that something happened and authorities believe that something happened. I still think that doesn't matter. because it will still be brushed under the carpet. It will still be managed away.
Tons: I think it's just because of the nature of the crime to some extent. There is a sense of shame, People don't talk about it enough. There's just not enough light in arena. It's just a difficult crime to prosecute, to discuss. considering that most sexual assaults are domestic. And something like 75, 72, 75 % are committed by somebody that the perpetrator knew that they, are scared that they're not going to be believed. are ashamed that they allowed this to happen. sometimes there isn't even any physical evidence. It's a hard crime
Nix: Yeah
Tons: to investigate. And I don't think that the police particularly like investigating. It's messy. It's difficult. It's lot of he said, she said, they said.
Nix: just thinking about like, you turned up at a police station and reported that someone stole your handbag, for example, I wouldn't expect the police start asking questions about, what were you doing that caused someone to steal your handbag? Yeah. And you can, you were telling, You know,
Tons: Where did you leave it? What time of the day were in the shop when it was stolen?
Nix: and if you had evidence of the person who stole in your handbag, wouldn't expect the
Tons: Are you sure it was stolen?
Nix: Yeah, were you sure you didn't just give it away? You know?
Tons: Did you not miscommunicate Are you sure
Nix: you know, the
Tons: you shouted loud enough? Stop thief. Did anyone hear you shouting, stop thief? I mean, I'm laughing and joking because it's ridiculous.
Nix: Yeah. Had you, had, if they, if they started asking you, well, what were you wearing when you, when someone stole your handbag? And had you had any
Tons: I'm still doing my bag.
Nix: drinks before someone stole
Tons: Yeah.
Nix: your handbag? it just wouldn't happen. It wouldn't happen. I don't know why it happens with sexual assault and I'm not saying that false allegations don't get made. We know they do.
Tons: They do.
Nix: We know they do. And I'm all for holding those people to account. And I think that they should be punished by the legal system if, if you make false allegations. it is absolutely so.
Tons: Well it's fraud isn't it, essential? You, you, yeah, you're making a...
Nix: I'm not excusing that at all, but I think that false allegations about stealing somebody's handbag, if somebody's reputation is harmed by that, that person making the false allegation should also be punished. And yet those crimes are treated completely differently. women who've experienced sexual assault have the burden of, explaining their behavior, explaining their clothing, explaining their alcohol consumption, why they were there, why they didn't leave, why they didn't say no, why they didn't report immediately. Why are they expected to manage the consequences of men's criminal behaviour.
Tons: the
Nix: I think that the judicial systems or, maybe the tend to treat all allegations as if they may be false and therefore they question the victim more than they would if somebody was reporting the stolen handbag for example or any other crime. They don't tend to treat those allegations by default as if they could be false. I think that the way that, the place and the legal system deals with sexual assault doesn't help either because I think that the majority of sexual assaults go absolutely unpunished.
Tons: people who get punished the most are the victims, which discourages them from reporting it.
Nix: So in the UK, less than 15 % of sexual assaults are reported according to the ONS. And of the reporter only 3 % of those lead to any conviction.
Tons: Convictions. So the idea of false allegations just seems a moot point, doesn't it? Because even when it isn't
Nix: It really does.
Tons: a false allegation, it's
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: still a very small chance that anything consequential is going to happen to the criminal.
Nix: Most of the perpetrators of sexual assault will get off scot-free. And I think
Tons: Yes. So, yeah.
Nix: if you're the kind of person who's inclined to commit sexual assault, your chances are pretty good that you're gonna get away with it.
Tons: and we come back around to let's just get all the women together and go live on another planet We wouldn't even
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: have to nuke this one because to be honest with you it 10 years and they will have nuked themselves.
Nix: Hmm. when I was looking into, those statistics. I think that the conclusion to that really is the legal system is not designed support any kind of deterrent. the only hope we have really is the cultures that we live in and making these sexual assaults so reputationally damaging that they're not worth doing.
Tons: I think the social consequences
Nix: Because the legals...
Tons: is the key here. I think
Nix: It is.
Tons: that, in order for that to happen, we need men to jump on board and say something disapproving when they hear something that makes them. that gives them the ick, that's a good word they hear something that gives them the ick say, hey dude, that's not cool. Or say something like, I'm not on board with that. Or I don't think that that's funny because it's the social consequences which will
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: have far greater impact than any legal consequences. The fact that
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: boys and men grow up and learn that other boys and men weren't tolerated, would be a game changer for women.
Nix: Yes, it absolutely would. And I think that the reason that we are where we are in this epidemic now is that that hasn't happened. And actually, we've got people in very powerful positions who have
Tons: being convicted of rape.
Nix: done these things have, yes, who have been convicted of rape.
Tons: traffic to young women.
Nix: Yeah. which as you said earlier in the episode, you've almost made it permissible. And, and, and certainly
Tons: Yep.
Nix: given the idea that there is no consequence, And the other part of that, that legal conversation is really that, even for those instances where they're has been a conviction. It almost doesn't, I mean it matters, but it doesn't undo anything. The harm has been done. someone may have been held accountable for don't think that we can make the law the answer this. by the time the law gets involved, it's too late.
Tons: Yes, the consequences have to be immediate and strong. And the weight of opinion has to be so much so it drives the shame. to the perpetrator because I think that some of the problem here is that the shame sits with the victim but we really need the shame to stick with the perpetrator that's where we need the shame to be we do not focus enough on that we need we need to shift the blame totally
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: onto the perpetrators of these crimes
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: We should not be asking questions about her behaviour. We should definitely be asking questions about the rapist's behaviour. What were they doing? What were they thinking? Why did they do that? the weight of public opinion needs to be on that. And we need to recruit men in order to do that. Not to stand by and not to act. not to wait for somebody else to call the police all the men and all the women to stand together and force this change. It's a social change
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: that we need.
Nix: You know, I want
Tons: I would like to point out here that this is not a problem for women to teach their sons. I don't like their narrative that this is a responsibility of women. Talk to your sons, explain to your sons what it's... No, it's gotta be mums and dads have to talk to their children honestly and explain the consequences and make sure that they understand that this is unacceptable in any form, even the smallest action, the smallest, joke, the laugh, the compliance. is all
Nix: Mm.
Tons: not acceptable. I would like for anyone who considers that any victim of sexual assault to get on with their lives. To keep in mind that Jane Doe, the victim of the Cornell 7, will never have a normal life. She will wake up sweating with nightmares and flashbacks. in 30 years time, in 40 years time, in 50 years time. She will never trust anyone. She may never have a family. Her life will actually be physically shortened by this because she will be afraid of the doctor. She will not seek medical help when she needs it. She will live in fear. Her cortisol, her inflammation, her actual physical health will suffer as a result of this. She will have years of therapy and then be okay and then have to have years of therapy again. She will think to herself, I want to die many times in her life. She will find the smallest challenges to be insurmountable, she will see threats everywhere she goes, she will jump at shadows, she will sleep with a knife under her bed, she will never be okay and she will never get on with her life. So any person who thinks that these young men, shouldn't have their lives affected and shouldn't have their lives upturned by a mistake should consider that because they deserve nothing less than that than what she's going to have to live with for the rest of her life and that is why
Nix: Yeah.
Tons: when I thought of a punishment that would suit the crime the only thing that would work would be the thing that they did to her and have that, that to live with for the rest of their lives. Her life
Nix: No.
Tons: is fundamentally different and she will live in a prison of her own making because of us.
Nix: Yeah, I agree with you in terms of the punishment that should be doled out because of the consequences to Jane Doe. But also in this case specifically, I reiterate that these are allegations, there has to be a trial and we'll see how all that falls out. in this situation I find particularly egregious and particularly worth the punishment that you described is the length of time. being victimised for that length of time is truly awful. those perpetrators carrying on length of time is not a mistake. It's not a drunken fumble.
Tons: that is not a mistake. That's not a misunderstanding that somebody didn't...
Nix: was, it's not a misunderstanding.
Tons: That's not like she said no but maybe she'd be in here. This is not what we're talking We're not talking about anything like that. This is
Nix: No.
Tons: not a lack of consent. This is the most horrendous crime.
Nix: that.
Tons: and they deserve nothing less than a life sentence in my opinion.
Nix: Yeah, agreed. Should they be found guilty.
Tons: Yes, and anybody else who has done that. And like we said, it's not just this one case that we're talking about. There are Jane Doe's all over the world. All you have to do is have a look at the MyBellas website.
Nix: Yeah, yeah, 62 million hits in a month. not a small problem.
Tons: No, it's not a small problem. So let me know when you find that habitable planet,
Nix: Yeah, I think we're all searching quite hard at this point.
Tons: I think we should all be looking for that habitable planet.
Nix: when we started this conversation, were asking the question about what happens when men's sexual entitlement isn't challenged and We've covered some fairly... heavy topics as examples of what happens. And the answer at the end of all of it is brutally simple. When men's sexual entitlement isn't challenged, pay the price. They pay when a man decides his desire matters more than their autonomy. when their friends decide that it's easier to look away. when loyalty to your mate or your fraternity becomes more important than confronting what's going on upstairs. They pay when powerful men are given the benefit of the doubt because challenging is dangerous to your career. when institutions become more concerned with managing their reputation than confronting an issue. and when we make women responsible for preventing. The Harm. So none of that means that every man is responsible for another man's behaviour. But every one of us has some responsibility for the environment in which that behaviour is allowed to flourish. sexual entitlement. isn't powerful only when someone commits an assault. It's powerful when everyone around it learns that challenging at more of a cost than tolerating it. So I want to be clear. We're not saying that every man is dangerous and we're not saying that every accusation is automatically true. We are saying that there are countless moments before, during and after sexual assault when someone can choose to challenge. And every time we choose silence, because speaking up is uncomfortable. We leave someone else, normally a woman, to carry the consequences. It's about the price of unchallenged entitlement and who ends up paying it.
Tons: So I'm going to end off this episode by saying stay safe everybody, look out for yourselves, look out for your family and as always lots of love from us.
Nix: of love. Bye.
Tons: Bye!
Nix: Thanks for spending time with us. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you'd subscribe, leave a review and share it with someone who'd enjoy the conversation. And remember, the stories we inherit don't have to become the stories we live by. See you next time.
