Ep.3 Larry Doyle: What it Really Takes to Get in Shape

Jack McGailey: Right, Daddy, so I did have this rhymed off and ⁓ forget everything that I'm supposed to say, but we'll go with it anyway. So Keith told me to pause for a second, so that's what I had to do. I'm I'm keeping that in. For suspense. Welcome back to another episode of the two Aegits Talking Fitness podcast. I'm Agent No. One, Jack McGailey, and this is Eegent number two, Keith O'Rourke. What's up, everybody? And today on the podcast, we have someone who's been in the industry over twenty years. Over twenty years. Thank God I didn't go first five minutes. I shaved some of the grey hairs, obviously. You didn't look it. You didn't look it. You look nice and young. When you've been in the industry for that long, you've done and seen everything from level one to level ten. And Larry has coached everyone from every end on the scale, from people who've struggled to eat takeaways, struggle to stop eating takeaways, sorry, and get off the couch right up into rugby rugby players, GA players. and pro level bodybuilders. But over the last while or last year, he's had the monumental task of coaching Keith who looked like what I would call a prime Tom Cruise. So I don't know if that's a an insult or a compliment. That's the first thing I thought of when I seen that photo. A little bit taller than something I hope there's a bit I'm not standing on a box like he tends to do in a lot of his his sheets. Before we get stuck into this, what was it like coaching Keith? Was it tough? Was it easy? ⁓ I walked in the door walked in the door here earlier on. I was Keith, how's it going? I was like, nice to see you with clothes on because like any communications we've had have have been through the online realm with our coach and like it's first time meeting in person. I like, yeah, nice to see you addressed. But like Keith was one of the outliers. He's just like, hey, I want to get lean and let's do the things. Give him the things. Got lean. And it was it was a really good like it was actually genuinely it was a really good process. Like 'cause I actually did this thing recently where went through Dream Avatar client and it was like Not to pump your tires, but like Keith was right up there as well, because just does the things, ask the questions, get involved, is curious about the process. Obviously, being a coach, you're knowledgeable as well, but still you didn't just like II captain. You were curious about learning from it as well, too, which is like from my side, it's really easy to coach someone, even though there might be like technically more work in it, but because you're curious about the process, you get way more into it from both sides then as well, and get way more from it. So yeah, it was ⁓ it's good. Definitely overselling that. Making it like I was easy. I was Easy enough. Easy enough, I'd say, yeah. But I think it shows a lot about when you love your job and someone's asking the questions because you know yourself, if someone asks you a question on anything and they're willing to listen, you're gonna talk about this all day. You know, and it's like try shut me up on it. Like, you know, but and you'll you'll know with the cli like and we don't get all dream clients, right? As well too, and that's the thing. Like you'll have people like, Yeah, of course I'm gonna that, and they're like You know they're not gonna do it. So it's like you kind of put them off before they leave. And it's like, Are you sure you're actually gonna do this? Yeah. ⁓ but then you know when someone's genuinely invested in it as well, too, or wants to like really change or make a difference, or and that's like for me, not having the dream client who'll just go and tick all the boxes, but that they'll actually involve themselves in the process. And that's like a non negotiable I'll put in with them is to say, Be involved, be curious, like ask the questions. There's no thing is a stupid question, and it's not gonna be perfect. But at the same point, if it can be Quite compliant like Keith, it is pretty perfect on the root of salt too, right? You can just tick the boxes, do the things, and get a great return from it. Yeah. Because you've a nice, you've a very nice balance, which is kind of part of the reason we we wanted to get you on the podcast. Like you've a great balance of like you've like Jack was saying at the beginning, like you've worked with like the highest level of like people getting absolutely shredded or people that perform at a high level in a sport or an athlete or something. You work with a lot of coaches like myself, and then you also work with a lot of people that are literally like figuring it all out for the first time. So like you've you're one of the few people that can actually see the difference between the top level and the bottom and like everything in between. Because a lot of people, especially coaches I find that are like bodybuilder coaches or they're coaches for athletes and stuff, which is awesome that they just specifically focus on that. But them trying to talk to like beginners is like fucking chalk and cheese. Like it's completely gears to change. So they've got this generally how it is with that. It's like I've been coached by someone before, I'll take their plan and process, I'll dilute the shit out of that down and I'll pass it on to everyone else. And that's just because how I got lean is how I'm going to get everyone else lean. Mm. And that's where it's kind of the circle into a circle hole sometimes, but more often than not, it's the square and beat the shit out of it till it gets through the circle hole. Where for me, I'm trying to get like key shape, key toole and make those marry up. And now it's simple and it passes through. And it should be a really easy process if you pay attention to that and know the gears to change and to adjust and alter for that individual if you've onboarded them properly, in a way that you understand their needs, their demands, the lifestyle, the goal, but then also what's gonna make them tick. 'Cause I know you wanted to get shredded when we got to that point. You want to get lean first, we set it all up, got you shredded, but made you aware of all the different steps, but you were also in a position to be able to do that as well. Where others are not in a position to be able to do that. So you just know like we're gonna cruise at level two here for a long time. Even though they may want in their mind, but just managing expectations of getting them to that point. So yeah, it is like knowing the gears and the strings to pull when to push, pull, pause is the key thing. Because again you'll have Mary wants to go out in the weekend, and it's like, can we just not have three bottles of wine this weekend? Well, maybe we'll appeal it back to two versus like elite level professional some rugby players that I play ⁓ worked with that were down to the minute detail of their minutes prior to a game that is really critical and crucial that they're performing at the highest level. So it's a very different approach from one to the other. Or someone who wants to be able to see their pancreas secreting insulin because they're that lean, it's like very different, you know? That specific ask you've had someone come in saying that. It's it's an old Milos Saratev thing. It's like it gets so lean you see pancreas secreting insulin. Like and it's like you get that lean. There's other analogies that I'll probably say for another day on the There was one there was one particular particular one I remember you said to me it's the first time I've ever heard it. And it is it's like as soon as you said it, I was like, that is the most graphic I know what you're gonna say. Yeah, yeah. I don't know what I I used to have apologies for the the end on this, that's gonna have to happen. I had a t-shirt when I was competing in bodybuilding, I had a t-shirt. And it had team hashtag dick skin on the back of it. So like without the visual representation, or maybe you want to drop some graphics in on this, it's like we leave the graphics off. When you're dick skin lean, you can see through your skin, basically. So that's kind of a like again, that's level twelve. You know what I mean? Like not many people will ever get there. Not even many bodybuilders get there. But it's like, yeah, when you're when you're that lean, there's just no fat left. Yeah. Not many people need to do or want to do. Or you probably should ever experience that as well too. Yeah, yeah. It's the people that come in. I always find with with folks kind of early enough in their journey where they're Yeah, I want to get real lean and I'm like, Do you know what real lean really means? Like what's your I'm always like, What's your version of real lean? Because there's and if they are kinda like, I want to look like this person, I'm like, Okay, that's still you're a good chunk of time away from looking like that. If you ever even want to actually look like that. So like you said, I think it's that explaining the process of like, here's what the next six months would look like and then the next six months you want to get there. Yeah. And when people know that, then they can make the decision of like, okay, do I actually want that or not? Versus just signing up with a coach and be like, fill out this form and I'll spit out a program at you. And it's like, let's see what happens over the next couple of months, or telling them they're gonna get lean and they're like, Why why is life terrible and I still don't look great? Yeah, 'cause like how many people ever came to either of you and said, I want to feel awful? What's your goal? To feel as miserable and awful as physically possible. It's like no one ever signed up for that, but inadvertently through coaching, they kind of end up getting there. without ever one that. It's like I wanna feel good, I'm going away on holiday with the kids in twelve weeks. Okay. Chicken and broccoli it is. You know, we're we're gonna do miserable things that are completely misaligned with the goal to get to a sustainable outcome. You know, and I'll I'll give you a refeed once a week of you can eat a chicken curry with a fork to not eat any of the extra sauce. Like it's So miserable. You've the real the real little tricks there. That that's the secret people are looking for, Larry. Chicken curry with a fork. You know, there that's the thing someone would hear and be like, ⁓ class, that's what I need to do. And an old trainer partner of mine, shout out to Hickey, ⁓ used to do that and he'd have his like chicken and rice throughout the week, but then he'd have a chicken curry and rice over the weekend, but he'd eat it with a fork. So he's not gonna ⁓ slag him all the time. Love you, Brian. Yeah. ⁓ here, the the topic for this week, we're kind of we're we're touching on it there. We wanted to break down, make this kind of like as useful an episode as we possibly can, looking at, let's say, the levels of fitness and what different levels can look like if you're thinking about signing up at a coach or getting started on your journey. So thinking about it from a level one being you're just starting off on your fitness journey, getting started, and kind of looking at it from like that level one to five, getting to the point where you're like, You're in good shape, you're doing this, this is just part of your life. Then maybe level five to seven, getting in like real good shape and then level eight and above where it's like dick skin territory. Into that kind of area. So if we were to let's say start off looking at that like level one to five, let's say for people that are just getting started on their fitness journey, what are some of the things if someone's watching this that are actually important for them to focus on from your perspective, that'll actually start moving the needle. And we'll touch on a further end line, I guess, but what are some of the things that you see people thinking they need to focus on in this area that is like just don't worry about that yet. Yeah. It's it ultimately, regardless of the goal, all boils down to energy balance. It's just how severe the goal is will dictate how severe the interventions you're putting in around that, right? So if you've got someone who wants to start versus someone who wants to like go to level twelve, you're still looking at their sleep, you're still looking at their movement, you're still looking at their nutrition. But it's just within different levels of details to the whole thing. So your level one to five. Can we get out in your lunch break for a bit of movement? Cool. Can we refine the intake a little bit more? What's the weekend looking like? Maybe let's structure more calories towards the weekend because that's when you want a bit more balance. And it's like, okay, maybe a five two approach of five days slightly lower, two days slightly higher gives a lot of balance and flexibility. And it's ultimately how can I curate the plan that is going to get them to be able to adhere to it better? Because if you create more friction, there's more friction. Right. So it's like there's less results, less adherence, or more misery because they will actually stick to it, right? So it's known the individual. So I always use the analogy. There's a couple of different ⁓ clients that I've had over years that will fall into very specific categories. And it was too recently that I'll always use them for it. You've got an accountant who is like hyper anal on numbers, they're super focused, they want four decimal places with their protein target. And it's like 'cause they're they're nerds and they love the numbers, and that's cool, but you have to appreciate that. And another guy recently who's a QS, he works in estimates. So he's between 2200 and 2600 with his calories. Satisfies him and his needs, right? If I give that to the accountant, they will blow up in a second. If I give the four decimal places to the QS, he'll lose his mind. And there's just redu ⁓ reduction of adherence with the whole thing. So it's essentially finding out where they are, what they're doing, what makes them tick, and then applying a plan. To get the key shape into the key to hole and make that work, right? So again, it's the same principles all the time. You're still looking at your energy balance, you're still looking at movement, you're still looking at tracking your calories or creating I guess caloric awareness for that level one to five is a really good way of putting it as opposed to tracking because they think a lot of restriction. Ultimately there has to be restriction because you need to be in a caloric deficit to lose body fat, right? So it's how can we create some restriction without friction for that? Yeah. With whatever they're doing. Mm. So again, if I've got the twenty two year old who wants to go to IBs and get laid over the summertime and get lean and look great and they're not in shape, yeah, that's cool. I'm gonna say to them, you're doing all the work because you've no objections or responsibilities in your life. If I've got the thirty-five year old who's got two jobs, three kids, doing a masters and wants to lose ten pounds going on holidays, very different approach. Yeah. But you're also managing expectations of them too, to say, like you said, what is the actual goal? And for us as coaches, it's to make sure we're managing that. Because we can say and bullshit people off of course I can make your dreams come true. Just pay me money and I'll hand you back abs and happiness. But it doesn't really work like that, right? That would be a great deal if you could do it though. The abs and happiness plan, right? It's just pay me enough money and ⁓ well, you didn't really read the small print. I'm sorry, no refunds. Five one trio's and not the tactic. Yeah, yeah. But it's it's like again, then when we can manage expectations, say, well You might only lose ten pounds, you wanna lose twenty, but we're gonna set you up to be able to lose the extra ten there after the holiday as well. You're gonna be feeling way better getting to that. So that's your kind of level one to five is managing expectations, making sure that you've got the bare fundamentals in caloric awareness, output and activity awareness. Like when we go back to the two and O's, you look at the studies and research on it, people are massively under reporting the calories they consume and then they're massively overesti overestimating the amount of ac output and activity they're doing. By up to fifty percent on both. Yeah. So when you kind of track calories, people will tell me they're on two thousand calories. I'll actually put them on two thousand calories and now they're down two kilos within the first two weeks. You weren't on two thousand calories. I'm not gonna say that to insult ⁓ but all of a sudden we realise, you know, it's not magic, it's just that they're actually aware of the extra food they're consuming. Because again, when you're at that level one to five, you're gonna be unaware because you're you're unskilled in the practice. Like fat loss is a skill because it's the art repetition of being able to do simple things more often and frequent, right? And adjusting your lifestyle to manage that. So when you build up the scale exposure to that and the repetition and time, they get very good awareness. Now they're probably ready to move to that level six plus thereafter. Because you can't put the car before the horse and jump ahead of this as well too, right? So now they've created clinic awareness, they've created output and activity awareness, they've created lifestyle awareness. So this to me is like building the foundations of the house. That'll dictate how big the mansion can be on top. Mm-hmm. So again, if the foundations are crumbling, It's not gonna sustain or not gonna withstand or sustain any of that as well too, right? So the better the foundations are, better we can do more long term problems and actually sustain it. It's like we look at twelve weeks for the most part with our coaching, right? But on week thirteen, I want them to know what they need to know to be able to sustain that themselves, as opposed to thanks for your money, fuck off, now you're gone and that's it. You know, and that doesn't work because again, people don't say, I wanna feel miserable and gain twenty pounds afterwards. It's not the thing. Yeah. You know, like as anyone ever said that to either be no at all. Like, you know, so mm it's our responsibility as coaches to kind of create that awareness, that platform for them to be able to work off but keep it more long term. Which from our side is probably a shit business model because you're turning over more people because you're making more responsible adults within that as well too. Yeah. So to kind of come back to it level one to five, caloric awareness, output and aware ⁓ output and activity awareness, lifestyle awareness, that they're kind of aware of their environment of How hypercaloric are all the foods that are on them? Yeah. Do they realise that every Thursday when someone brings in the donuts into work that they're having two thousand calories of probably unnecessary food that's going to eat? Yeah, yeah. Or kind of the OLO days as well, too. So another like for those who are kind of unaware of it, like the Saturday, Sunday is twenty eight percent of the week. Friday, Saturday, Sunday, forty two percent of week. So when you can kind of say, Okay, I'm gonna pull that forty two to twenty eight, I'm gonna pull the twenty eight to fourteen, it doesn't have to be perfect. But now there's a massive chunk back in my favour. That more than likely Monday to Friday, I've got a good bit of structure. Now it tends to be no structure on the weekends at all. So when you pull that back into your favour, now all of a sudden the magic is happening. But we're still saying have the foods you want and enjoy in moderation, within caloric control, no y'all on it when you have a big meal out on a Friday and you're kind of you're back on it on Monday, like many will do. Yeah. Now all of a sudden you just get more consistent and there's more fat loss happens. And now all of a sudden you're kind of down ten pounds without really dieting as such. You've just made lifestyle modifications. And I think that's a huge part of it with because you're a byproduct of everything you do with the seven days of your week, with the thirty days of the month, with the three, six, five of the year, right? So there is some imbalance there if you're carrying excessive body fat or body fat you want to lose to a degree. Then once you can just modify that slightly, put it back in your favor, it's it is relative. Like I don't want to downplay it, but it is pretty easy when you can just modify it. But when you make it so you make it so easy to do. Like if I give you a plan, Jack, and say, Can you do this? And you're like, Hell yes. But then I give you the same plan to you, Keith. And you're like, Hell no, that looks awful. It doesn't suit my lifestyle at all. But you're gonna get it, you're not. Yeah. You know, in terms of the actual result. So it's like, can we individualize that, make it easy to stick to, do the thing. Yeah, yeah. Cause just get enough repetition to achieve the fat loss and you achieve the fat loss, you know. Yeah, yeah. I find that with the weekends that I I nearly I nearly like clients going through that. part where they realize the weekends are fucking them over in the sense of like if we can be like, hey, if you can nail Monday to Friday and just don't fuck it up on the weekend. Just go on the weekend, have a bit more flexibility, but don't fuck it up. And then the first time they do that, they nail Monday to Friday. They see the difference on the scale Monday to Friday. They're like, class, that was unreal. And then they come back on Monday and the scale's shot back up. And that can happen just from like carbs, sodium over the weekend and come back down a day or two later, which is fine. But when it happens once or twice and they're like, I'm not fucking seeing any progress because it's like, why are you not seeing any progress? 'Cause you're fucking it up on the weekend, you're going to YOLO on the weekend. And then that's back on them to be like, okay, now I see you've told me, but now I see what I need to do rather than just blindly doing it until you tell me to stop doing it and then I just fuck it all up down the line. So it's that like almost like education through fucking experience. But like it's like we're blank that out. Yeah. People there was two camps. People either went all in on the fitness or just sacked it off. Completely right. And those who went all in, they had no social objections. They had no like things to do. They a lot of people didn't have work, unfortunately. There was other stuff going on. But like they were able to do 20,000 steps a day. They were able to go just hiking into the mountains and get lost. And you know, they were cooking all their foods because they didn't have takeaways. But then it really sucked for them because they got so much in shape. But then the real world happened again and they had to go back to their desk job of 8,000 steps a day or whatever, trying to get some activity in, ⁓ going out on weekends because they hadn't seen all their mates. And all the unsustainable practices that they had were just not able to be integrated into the real world thereafter, right? So they really struggled. And I kind of use this ⁓ aspect where can we blend this a little bit where yes, we're gonna have the output and activity and do the things, but also incorporate this where we can actually sustain it and not do the high and low of one and the other. And now all of a sudden again you get kind of the the realization of okay, this actually will work a lot more for me. It's like could you repeat that? Going out and actually enjoying a meal on the weekend as opposed to staying in and peering out your curtains looking at the ice cream truck going by. You know, it's like, can you do that? Yes, we probably can. But much like that when you look at the averages over the week again, because you'll get it all the time as I do as well. You give someone twenty two hundred calories and like, ⁓ shit, I can't eat that many calories. Yeah, yeah. You're mostly overweight. You have been eating this many calories as well. So and again without being offensive with it, but it's like the reality is they're just unaware of what calories actually are. And when you can look at that over the weekly balance of the seven day average. Again, if you're taking two K a day, it's fourteen K over the week. Let's go eighteen Monday to Friday, but then twenty five Saturday, Sunday, and we're still getting to fourteen K. Mm-hmm and mixed life easy all of a for the like, ⁓ this works. And I just don't have to blow the socks off it and go into six K. You know, 'cause I kinda do that trick when someone says, like, ⁓ I couldn't possibly eat eighteen hundred calories. And I'll be like, Yeah, yeah. And then I'll a few minutes later, I like, What's your favourite pizza? ⁓ I'd I'd murder like a double large family dominoes. It's like, okay, that's 2,000 calories. You've just you've just you know kind of none and void that fact now that you can't eat 1800 calories. Yeah. You know. But again, like once once you get that realization of weekly averages, output and expenditure, you know, what the calories are, the fluctuations on the scales, they're the things that kind of fuck people up in that short early phase of it all. Get that right, get a really good understanding. Now you can crank it up to the next level if you wish. Like and people don't really care about going to the next level for the most part. They want to lose that ten to fifteen pounds, feel a bit comfortable, lose on a bit more and kind of sustain that and that's cool. ⁓ what is that level like when you think of like s like like kind of level one to five, what is like a level three, four, five look like in your head? I I love my analogies. ⁓ like airplane, thirty thousand feet, you want to go on holidays, you're only going to stay there for a short period of time. So maybe they get to level six and that's less decline going from thirty thousand to zero. But now We want to get them back to like three to five thousand feet after the holiday where they can now sustain it that little bit more and bring it back up with the caloric intake and not be like so maybe restricted on it that there's a lot more flexibility. That's the kind of people don't realise they want to get there, but that's a real sweet spot because now you're only like six or eight pounds away from like holiday shit. Yeah, yeah. As opposed to I'm always twenty pounds and it's just twenty up and down, twenty up and down, twenty up and down. So like getting like lean looking great. Yeah. But then living maybe slightly Beyond that in a more comfortable area. Yeah, because you have more dietary flexibility. Now your training and performance is better, your lifestyle is less like I'd say less rigid or restricted, but it ultimately has to be somewhat restricted. But you've got more flexibility that you can say, well, okay, spontaneous meal out, cool, let's have it and enjoy it. But it doesn't really derail the whole thing because they've got those foundations in place that it's not this restrictive or reactive all or nothing approach. Yeah. And having that where your output and activity isn't crazy high, your calories aren't crazy low. Not hyper focused on everything, you're probably not even tracking at that point as well. Because now you've created an awareness from the level one, two, three, yeah, that I know what a thousand calories look like. I know what my favorite meals look like. You know, again, an awareness I bring back to people is like, have a look at your trolley when you go shopping. It's the same shit all the time. You don't need to know every other item that's in the shop. So it's like get to know those 20 items that are in your trolley really well. Actually pay attention to tracking them, create an awareness of. Well, those pita breads, that chicken and that coleslaw, I know that that works out as being my favorite meal, but I know it's six hundred calories. Log it in your own internal My Fitness pal, take a little screenshot with your memory, you don't need to really track it again. Yeah. I find people always say that to me when when I'm kinda like, You're gonna rotate through the same four to six meals, like let's say whether it's dinner or whether it's lunch, you're gonna rotate through the same ones once you get into the swing of it. And they're like, No, no, no, I need variety, I I need variety, I need to be eating something different every day. Yeah, yeah. I need to be eating something different all the time, and it's like For one, if you are actually doing that, it's one hundred percent gonna slow you down in a major way. It's gonna make your life so much more effort to track everything constantly. But two, you're probably not doing that. Like you think you are. But like you said, you go shop and you see, ⁓ kind the same stuff and I just like maybe make it a little bit different one day to the other. But like calorie intake wise, protein wise, you're probably eating the same rough thing. And especially once you start tracking and you learn it, you're like, Okay, this works, so why the fuck would I change this? And it's the same, I'll ask people like how many times out do you Do you how many times do you eat out a week? And they'd be ⁓ you know, three times. And it's like, where do you go? ⁓ like we always go to X, Y, and Z. And it's like, how many different things do you get off that menu? I was like, ⁓ I always get the same stuff all the time. It's like, okay, so you don't have much variety in your You know there's 50 things on the menu, but you know you're gonna browse through them, but you still know you're only gonna get that one thing on the top. Yeah, yeah. Just learn that. I know they don't have them on the menus over here, but I love when clients go to the UK and eat out because the UK have the menu or the calories and stuff on the menu. So anytime someone goes to the UK they mess me being like, There's fucking twelve hundred calories in this salad. And I'm Yeah, it's the same over here. Must be different to the one back home, is it? Yeah. Same thing. What I do when I do that, I give two completely different pieces of advice to clients compared to myself. Clients, I'm Yeah, that's what it is. To myself when I see it, I'm like, It's fifty percent inaccurate. Yeah. Just lie to yourself. Doesn't apply to me. Sneaky liars. Doesn't apply to me. Yeah. So coaches coaches are l barky. The worst the worst clients you'll have 'cause I know how to undo that, you know, if I piss around on the weekend it's like 'cause I know stuff, you know. I was gonna say, I I remember s chanting early on where you're like, You're actually you seem fine, but like coaches are like tough to coach because exactly you said we all f not that we all think we know everything, but we all think we know enough. Yeah. And you go to another coach to be Yeah, I just need the accountability And like you do, but at the same time like even though you know, you almost know to the point where you think you just can get away with shit that you just can't really get away with hop and you'll like bias the same training all the time because ⁓ well this is the thing I did like eight years ago and it worked and I like it but it's like you're not really progressing as well too. Mm-hmm. You know they kind of stick to the same things and the same habits. But yeah coaches are an interesting niche to get into but like to go back to it again like your your different levels. Okay, create an awareness, level one to five, build the foundations, get them solidified, you're pretty good to go. And it should be with the view of I could go to level six, seven, eight if I wanted to, I just don't want it. Yeah. I now have the tools and skill sets, but understanding that it just means you're tightening the fringes that bit more, dotting a few more I's, crossing a few more T's, and just doing it for a little bit longer. Yeah. Yeah. I kinda say that to folks like because a lot of folks I work with would be in that kind of one, two, three range of like, okay, I just wanna wanna get in good shape and I wanna know how to stay in good shape. And it's like you can't do that with some extreme thing because ⁓ you can get in good shape with an extreme thing, but you can't maintain it with your doing something extreme. And if you don't especially understand why it worked in the first place, then you're just fucking shooting the like you're just doing something for 12 weeks and you're putting all the way back on again. So I kind of break it down into like if you're strength training two to three times a week, maybe four times depending on the goal, calorie awareness from a nutrition perspective, if you're sleeping enough or at least making sleep a priority. Obviously like parents and stuff like that with new kids, you might not get as much as much sleep from that perspective, but you're at least making it a priority. If you're moving enough, getting whatever it is eight, 10, 12,000 steps a day depending on the goal, and you're staying hydrated, if you just do that for long enough, you're gonna get in good nick. Like you're gonna get in good shape if you do it to the point where I'm doing it all for what I need in my body, you're gonna get in good shape, decent enough shape, and it's not hard to maintain that when you make those part of your life. And then beyond that is kind of just dial everything up a bit. Yeah. I think it becomes a bit more of a challenge. So it's the people want to make like they'll they'll say, I want to lose fat and I want to be leaner, but I want to make a lifestyle change. And when they can say like This is the thing we're going to like, we're you're going to need to make more effort to change your lifestyle as well, as opposed to just purely looking at calories. So it's like again, you now have to become someone who is a little bit more active. You now have to become someone who is a little bit more calorically aware. You now need to come become someone. I'll kind of pose the question is like, what do you need to become as that person to get the outcome you're looking for? So you kind of have to live that way to to get there. Because again, you'll see this all the time, and like so many other coaches will do it. It's like You don't need to restrict anything on the weekend. You can still drink all the alcohol you want and like have all the things. You don't even need to exercise. It's like the fuck are we talking about? It's like d like we still need and and this is just to get more clients because if if they come to us and we say, Well, okay, you're gonna have to exercise three to four times a week, you're gonna have to track your food, you're gonna have to mind your calories, you're gonna have to behave yourself on the weekends versus you can go YOLO and still get results. It's like Where are they gonna go to? Yeah. Doing this all the time. Because it's it's not really that sexy what we're ultimately trying to bottle up and sell to people. Mm. You can try it and we can do some cool stuff and make it easier. It doesn't really sound that sexy. You know? Yeah. And what do you find like, let's say with people at that at that at that range, before we even move on to like the next one, what do you find are some of the biggest things they struggle with? It's mostly just like adherence, really. It's fucking Instagram. 'Cause like, ⁓ I've seen like you know like you know, Mary Tight ass doing this workout. It's like I think I need seventy eight clute exercises in my program. Okay. Yeah. You're training at home and you've got a kettlebell and two bands. Yeah, yeah. She's training in Gold's gym in Venice Beach with fifty eight clute machines. And it's like you can't do the thing because it's completely misaligned with what you have access to and what you need to do. Yeah. ⁓ so it it's trying to just contain people from like they're kinda like magpies at times, just want to go off and do the shiny thing. So no no we We just need to keep doing this. Yeah. You know, there's a bit of want and needs. there was this grey gym I heard about many years back, it was in Germany, and they had this like it was kind of like the red room of the grays and ⁓ the fifty shades of grey, where it was like all the weird toys were in it. So they get to do all their strength training, and your man had all like the quirky strength training stuff in there and like weird fitness toys and you know fucking whatever. He got his clients to do their workout. Then they could go play for 10 minutes afterwards basically and join all the fun shit and the random stuff he knows is completely useless. Yeah, yeah. But it was like meat and veg dessert. Yeah. And he would give them that bit of leeway of like, just go play with the toys, go off, do your thing, but do this first. And that again was enough to get them buying of doing a thing. So that's where we can kind of be like, okay, I know you want to build more glutes, but you want to do some cardio, cool. Let's get you to do some intervals thereafter. That's kind of the meat and veg of it. But then the dessert as well. Like they want to do something that feels sweaty and hot and bothered walking out of the gym. We know they need to lift heavy in the six to ten rep range and take two minutes rest between sets, but they don't really want to do that. So it's needs and wants with that as well too, right? So once you can mash that up, get more adherence and crack on then too. I find what guys it tends to be just loads of extra biceps. Throw in a bit of extract. I will give you the biceps if you do the bench test beforehand. Or let's do your squats and add on some I find that it's a big hack for any lads that are gonna do it. Legs, put arms at the end of leg day. ⁓ yeah. They will show up for leg day every time. Big day. It's an extra set of arms in the week, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I definitely think we need to turn the name of this podcast into the comparison podcast because it just seems to me it always dials back to people are getting their fitness advice on Instagram. And like when they're seeing a bodybuilder who's or someone in incredible shape walking up Venice Beach, they're Yes, that's what I want. I want to be there in twelve weeks' time. And it's like, right, what are you doing now? Nothing. And you're like, Right, let's let's ease you into this process over and let's you know, we're not gonna sell anyone into a program and say, Gonna take you at least two years to get there. Because it's that's gonna be like, no, I'm gonna go to the person who's gonna take who's gonna tell me three months. For me, right, I visually I come across with less authority now on social media because I used to be 30 kilos heavier of tissue and mass. That was like 118 kilos in mean. And that one photo you sent me on of you like proper big, and I was like, Jesus Christ, the man is a monster. You're still big, but like and it was like, but now and I I genuinely had it one day in the gym where I like, he was making a complete bollocks of like this bicep Carly was doing with the machine. And I was like, Do you mind if I give you a bit of tip? And he literally looked at my eyes, then he looked at my biceps. And back up to me, he said, I'm fine, thanks. I was like, you bastard. ⁓ I know way more about the resistance profile on that machine now than when I used it back in the day. Ultimate insult. And I was like, literally eyeballed my biceps. It was like the you version of looking at a bird's tits. And it was like, ⁓ no. And he came back up to my eyeliner. I was like, Funny that happens to me all the time when they look at my biceps. I was like, Christ, I was like Well, it just made me realise like that I should probably go back on a load of test and training some programs as well too, because like you lost size at the us. I didn't say it 'cause it was too big. I thought he looked at you and said, No, biceps are too big. No, I just afterwards when I had like lost a load of muscle tissue and kind of like quit the whole bodybuilding thing. Yeah. And he like looked at me and was like, What would you know about biceps? You don't have any. You know, and it was like, Yeah, kind of okay still, like fuck you but just because they weren't what they used to be, you know. When you were bigger, you probably had people looking at you and saying, ⁓ no, I don't want to do that because I don't want to wake up tomorrow with your biceps. Yeah, so I used to train a lot of like gen pop and they're coming in and be like, No, no, no, it's like no. I said I am literally killing myself to try and do this, living at twenty four seven. I haven't missed a meal in like seven years, haven't missed a rep in seven years. It was like, trust me. You're not going to Yeah, yeah. It's like going for a jog and like afraid you're going to turn into you saying bolt. It's not gonna happen, right? It's the it's that F1 analogy I always use with people when they're like, you know, ⁓ I'm I'm I'm following, like, I'm following C Bum online, I'm following all the bodybuilders and like I'm doing the bodybuilding. Like whenever someone comes to me and they're like, I'm training like two to three times a week and you're like there've no muscle mass, they're trying to get started. Yeah, and I'm doing like chest, I'm doing like C Bum's chest workout on a Monday, and then I'm doing this person's back workout. I'm like, you do not need to be doing chest and back workouts. Like you need to be doing like Full body splits where you're spreading as much load and getting as much across the b or across your body as possible within a week or however way we want to split it. But like when people are trying to learn what to do from a bodybuilder and a bodybuilder is making content towards other bodybuilders, they're not talking to you. It's not that a bodybuilder can't they obviously know what to do, but they're just not talking to you in that moment. But like if if if I see a carpenter making a house, right, he has to physically make that house with his skills. Most bodybuilders are making their house with their genetics and drugs. Mm. So it's not comparable to say, well, you look like you know what you're doing versus, you know, some guy who's juiced up out of his mind to tell now there's some incredibly knowledgeable bodybuilders. Again, you know, so many of my good friends and will be for years, they're incredible coaches, do a great job. But there's just genetic outliers. There's people who have ⁓ you know, kind of genetic outly in body parts or females with, you know, good fat deposits within certain areas that make them look like they've got really juicy glutes and like loads of muscle tissue. real deal as well too, right? So it's just kind like be aware with that as well for like a lot of people who are listening to this too, you know? Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like though the F one analogy I was getting to is like you wouldn't you wouldn't learn to drive from an F one racer. No. You know, you learn to drive from like an instructor that'll teach you like we're talking about the basics and then you build your foundation and you build on top of there. Someday you might look like a bodybuilder. Ten years down the line with loads of trend and test. We're potentially we're doing a ten and two approach right now at the minute with the steering wheels keep your hands there, don't fucking move ⁓ for a while. None of this stuff, you know and stuff yeah. So ⁓ what's your before you go to the next aisle I'm curious, what's your take on like, you know, when people are getting into training at the start and they have all or they want all of like the training aids to like the lifting straps, the lifting shoes, the belt, the fucking wrist wraps, the knee wraps, like we've all seen that person in the gym that's walking around doing bicep curls, like a weightlifting belt on and knee straps and elbow straps and a fucking headband and wrist straps, and you're like, What is going on here? Yeah. They know they're big now, yes. So if you see someone who is wearing a belt and knee wraps and sleeves and lifting shoes when they're doing biceps. You need to stop ticking the box on the shopping cart and putting everything in. Or you're trying to validate that I've spent five hundred quid on all this extra gear and I need to use it. But like right, it's the thing of when I used to play rugby and football and stuff back in the day, I wore the Predators. And because I thought they made me swerve the ball like fifteen percent more, I was just probably thinking about what I was doing a little bit more to make it swerve the ball. ⁓ so it's like if it gets them into the gym And makes them train, wear the clown suit, do all the things, do it. But you're yeah, if you like if you physically feel you need a lifting belt to protect your back when you're doing biceps, you need to sort your shit out when you're training biceps. Like it is not necessary. That's nice that anytime you see that because I know Specifically two or three people in from Gyms you go to that you see and you're yeah, that's And it's the big gear bag, it's the five liter jug, and it's like waddling down the thing and there's like chalk everywhere for every exercise. And it's like y we know you're training, we can hear you training, we can see you training. We you know, just turn it down to level two because there's some old people training beside you as well, too. Yeah. Kind of know your environment, right? But again, if it makes them happy and like right things for right places as well too. I'll get a lot of like female lifter or even guys as well, too, because We're doing less physical labor things. And yeah, we want to train the gym, get them to use like you know, increase their grip strength and stuff, because obviously longevity and the benefits. But if the grip is the limiting factor on an RDL or whatever it might be or a pull-down, cool, use straps. But just don't be like sniffing nose torque and using elbow sleeves as well too as you're doing it. If you've got like, you know, six kilos in your hand. So one of the old school gyms they used to train in, ⁓ Iron House and Clendawaken, you weren't allowed to make a noise unless you had 180 kilos on the bar. ⁓ stop, really? That's very that's a tough line. So if there was a kid like squatting a hundred kilos, fair play to him, shut the fuck up. Don't make noise. Yeah. You you don't qualify just yet 'cause you're not strong enough. Yeah. And the old scorillas would be like throwing weight around screaming and shouting, yeah, buddy, you know, whatever. It's kind of like don't you you have to qualify to actually be strong enough to do the strong things. You have to earn that. Yeah. And it was kind of like an unwritten rule, it's like, Don't make noise. Yeah. You know? I remember cringing when I was about seventeen or eighteen, like drinking every night or drinking maybe four nights a week and bit of a pop belly, but then like probably seventy, seventy five, seventy six kilos but wearing blood flow restriction bands to do bicep curls and I'm there look and I actually have a couple of pictures from back then with the gym shark teacher bet my belly and all right. And like, ⁓ that's I said yeah it's great for content now, you know, drink it in my story. S since then I've been a little bit better with the basics about ten, twelve, ten, eleven years later. So I suppose that just separates 'cause like everyone is like keen and like we're very influential and When you're being heavily influenced at that point of like, well, I do need that thing, like, you know, 'cause I've got the like Muscle and Fitness magazine from nineteen ninety six. It was like the thing that got me into training was an Arnold Swarzinger special. And it was kind of you know, I'd I'd love to show it to It's like literally just about like hard training. And he like, you know, three sets of ten with the majority of things and like split up your body parts and do all that. There was no fancy stuff. It was like some Weird muscle building supplements towards the tail end of it, and that was it. But now you see it, it's like more and more common because they're trying to reshape the wheel a bit as well, too. And kind of like, how do we sell stuff to people we've sold all the stuff to already? So let's bring out our own band of belt of resistance straps of whatever cuffs and stuff like that, too. ⁓ but unfortunately, the majority of people are using the likes of the cuffs and their resistance profile and all this crack. Like, I've done all of those workshops and seminars and events over the years. People don't know what they're doing with them like. And it's just they're actually slowing down their progress. Yeah. So you know, the can the basics work, right? Unfortunately, it's just like the diets, like the lifestyle, nutrition stuff. Do the boring basics really well, you're gonna get progress. Yeah. Yeah. Suppose there's a there's a level then when you're doing the basics well where you've been doing it for a while, you're in you're in you're in good shape. You you feel like you're in good shape, your energy's good, you're strong. You for lads you typically fit well into a t shirt, you have no excess body fat hanging over for women, you're probably wear nice dresses, you're comfortable and confident in it. But like we know then there's a couple of different levels still above that where when you take your clothes off and you're wearing it, you know, your your swimsuit, your swimsuit, your jocks, whatever it looks like, you get that little bit leaner. I've always seen myself as someone who like sort of maintains if we're going on this level between a five, sometimes around Christmas I might go down to a four. And then sometimes in the ⁓ maybe two, I go down to a two. But then like coming up to the summer I say, you know what, I want to tighten things up and go to a seven. What would then be that sort of middle ground where you're going from someone who's just you're in shape, but then it's like, I've got a holiday coming up. Yeah. You've got the basics already. What would you tighten from there? It's the whole reverse engineering. So again, like we go back to to shoot. It's like, okay, here's where we need to be for that. Let's go back to see exactly where we are now. And it's the Google Map analogy, point A, point B. Yeah. Let's figure out where the starting point is first and then elaborate it out from there and just manage the expectations. So again I'll say is like, what's the interpretation of that level seven for that person? Because they might I'll bring up a funny story now in a minute with that. ⁓ so you can manage your expectations because they're gonna be wildly misaligned sometimes. I had a guy one time came in to me, ⁓ God love you, Adam, he's five foot six, vegan, was carrying a lot of excess body fat at the time. He wanted to look like Kai Green without taking steroids. For starters, Ky Green is black. So that's that's the first barrier to entry that we have there, right? We met Ky Green in Limerick about twelve years ago and I was at the same seminar. And he is like he walks like a penguin because he is literally that large and you know, obscene amounts of muscle tissue, complete myostatin deficiency, he looks like a you know Belgian bull. Adam didn't quite look like that. So again, I have to manage expectations. So it's when you ask people what is their interpretation of that level seven as well, too, right? ⁓ But then it's like it's managed expectations. There's a rule of five that I have with guys that one, you're carrying five kilos more body fat than you think you have. And then the flip side of that is you're carrying five kilos less muscle tissue than you think you have as well. Too. So again, I want to be eighty kilos at twelve percent body fat from where you currently are. I'm like ninety and I think I'm sixteen. You're probably twenty, twenty five. And again, it's like managing expectations that you're probably gonna be seventy five kilos by the time you get there. that it's actually gonna take a little bit longer. So again, like to get to the I have my top off, I've got some abs, I feel confident, not feeling too much a blow with mess, whatever it might be on the beach during the summertime. It's strategically planning that of like, okay, when's the holiday? I will need twelve to sixteen weeks, probably sixteen weeks to get there, because we're not full time athletes. That there's going to be weddings, there's gonna be events, there's gonna be birthdays, there's gonna be celebrations, there's gonna be random taco Thursdays, there's gonna be whatever. And that's gonna delay the progress. So once we can line that up, it's like, okay, now if your goal is really to look that good, and it is really good look, like don't let's not downplay it, having the outline of Alves been lean is very difficult to acquire for most people because we're coming from a point where we really enjoy and love doing this all year round and do all the things. Most people don't. They're not living the same lifestyle as coaches. So, you know, for us to be like, ⁓ you fat shit, it's like, you know, you're Fourteen percent body fat, haha. It's like it's that's really good in shape for a lot of people, right? So if they want to get to that lean point, we have all the foundations in place, it's the same shit, different shirt. It's just tighten it up that little bit more. Let's be really accurate with the calorie tracking. And what I like to do with that, if they get like a sixteen week timeline, get them there earlier. That if you can get it done in eight weeks, get it done in eight weeks and really tune it up because now you can maintain that much easier. as opposed to being on super low calories leading in towards the holiday or event, you're not getting back up to maintenance in time. They go out, they blow out, they've got a couple of beers, they put a lot of pizza takeaways, whatever ice cream's out there, and now they feel like a bloated mess. And the visuals look completely different because they haven't had a controlled exit from the dieting phase as well too. So if you can get it done earlier, get it done earlier. So I really like a phase of tightening it up considerably within that kind of first eight to ten weeks. But really mapping out where is the speed bumps, where are the roadblocks, where's the work travel, where's the events, where's the things we need to be mindful of? Because the good weeks are gonna be the good weeks. And I'll use the traffic light analogy all the time. It's like green is go, crack on, do all the things. You know, training volume is high, recovery is great, sleep is good, adherence is fine, do it, crack on. But it's the amber weeks where, okay, I've got two red eyes this week to London and I've got a bit more of a work conference, I'm not gonna have all my meals prepped for that day. How can we make that amber week a little bit more green as opposed to perfectly green? And then the red weeks where some life stuff happens, a little bit more serious, whatever it might be, how can we make that red week a bit more amber? Because now it's blunting that big response of, I've not lost two kilos for the last three weeks and I'm way behind and I need to go harder. Again, we can manage the expectations, say some life shit happened, we're just gonna pull back to maintenance for a little bit, cruise on, you're not gonna be maybe as lean, but we can find out when we need to. But on the green weeks, they're gonna be good. So like allow them to be great weeks. It's the management of those amber and red weeks is where I think a lot of the coaching comes in and managing expectations are in that. Because you've given me that plan to do my 10K a day, to do my four sessions a week. I can't do two this week and I'm only after getting six so far for the first three days of the week with my steps fucking them off plan now because I can't do it. So again for us to be able to manage expectations and say, That's actually okay. We're gonna bump them up a bit on the weekend or We're not going to sack it off till next Monday. We're going to have a look at where we can actually pull the ball back into our court. Because now it gives them that sense of I actually can manage the shitty weeks. And all of a sudden, yeah, I've had all the lifestyle stuff in play, but they were a lot of green weeks. And I didn't really get tested till that happened. And the longer you need to diet for it, the more shit that's going to pop up. It's just natural. There is going to be more stuff because there's more time lapse. And we don't have the ability just to kind of tune out and put ourselves into a bubble. So when we can get them to again just realize. Not actually that bad. World didn't end. I'm still doing okay. I'm progressing. I've got the ball in my court. I'm just not gonna sack it all for four days at a week. Because again, people when you're a little bit leaner, you've been dieting a little bit longer, you can get a bit more fucked off of it as well too. You know, it's kind of like, you know, the first six weeks it's all shiny, it's the honeymoon period. ⁓ this is cool, I'm losing fat and I'm enjoying it. It's like fucking tracking my calories again. It's like steps, single sleep. It's like Bolocks. It's like, you know, there's a lot more stuff. Mm-hmm. The people around you notice that. I find like you see my wife when I was when we were doing the shoot last year. I was like, I felt totally fine the whole way through. Like, yeah, I challenged near the end. like you find yourself maybe like, I'm a little bit like I'm feeling it in the l those last kind of like six, eight weeks, let's say. ⁓ but afterwards she was like, You were like a pain in the arse those last four or six weeks. She was like, You're way more irritable, like you were just like way less patience than usual. And it like, I didn't notice that. But she was like, I noticed that big time at the end. Cause you're just like I need to do the things I need to do. And if I'm if anything is knocking me off that, I'm like, no, fuck. Because I'm in that zone. So it's it's it's it is interesting where like you don't necessarily you do notice it, but you don't notice it as much as someone that's around you all the time is like, you're a fucking pain. It can be oblivious because it becomes your new normal as well, right? for me, like after being through like parsing so many different phases or guiding so many others through, I'll say, Jack, over the next ten weeks, you will have days where you're going to feel shitty. You will have days where you're probably gonna be a bit snappy, but I also need you to understand this is not war we're going to. It's not that fucking serious. You know, you're tracking your calories and you're exercising. Yeah. It's not you know, 'cause I I kind of reframe it back to people. I'm like, you do realize this is very luxurious thing to do. You're intentionally eating less calories and you're intentionally exercising in a warm air conditioned gym. This like take the war paint off man and like you know, take off the nasal strip, take off the war paint, put down the straps, we're all okay. 'Cause Again, like people can get hyper focused and I was like, they'll see through social and stuff that you need to be so locked in. 24-7 David Goggins mode. Like David Goggins sits on the side of his bed and procrastinates like fuck sometimes as well, too. It's like understanding that. It's not just a highlight reel all the time. ⁓ that you will have days, because we're all human, that you will be a bit snappy. You know, and you know, the might missus might say You the diet is really making you change. It's not making me angry. I'm fine. Don't do tell me what that's like and you're looking at her and it's like in Father Ted where they're all after giving up the stuff for Lent and it's like a rollerblade going by and they're like a cigarette talk and she's like a chicken fillet like with some chocolate or whatever. Okay. You're gonna taste the earth as good as I want to. ⁓ but there will be times and once we can manage those expectations of saying, I'm not saying this is gonna happen. More than likely this is gonna happen. You need to be aware that it needs to be on your radar to not be a dickhead. Yeah. This as well too. Cause they can and they can get very like engrossed in it. And it's awesome that they get engrossed in it, but be very involved, be very switched on, be very clued in, but don't let it shift too much. Yeah, yeah. And I kind of find that as well whenever someone is at that level where they're like, I want to do like whether they're saying like I want to do a photo shoot or they're like, I want to get like like I'm in good shape, but I want to be in like great shape. It's like cool. Just you need to be aware of what that experience is like. If we're gonna if we're gonna get there, we're like like you said, we're saying it's gonna be twelve or sixteen weeks, we're timeline it out, we're not just being like wishy washy, yeah, we'll get there when we get there. It's like you're doing it for a period of time, some of that period of time is gonna suck for you, it's gonna be tough, it's gonna be challenging, you're gonna have tougher days, you're gonna be hungry, it's just the reality of it. And if you're willing to do all that, fucking happy days, let's do it. You're gonna look class at the end, it's gonna be deadly, it's gonna be well worth it. Not gonna look like prime down. A taller Tom Cruise. I'll I'll rephrase it to people again, like where they're going into kind of a bit of a bitching mode. I'd be like, there's a book I want you to go buy or download on the Audible that's like called The Forgotten Highlander. Don't know if you've ever read it. Get it if you haven't. It'll give you some really good perspective on like what shitty things are and what are not. Do you know what I mean? Perspective, like I'm I'm walking on a treadmill here to get some extra steps in and doing some cardio. I am not, you know, trudging through Asia as a locked up prisoner of war. Like this gentleman was and he has suffered some horrible things and you know, ⁓ getting tortured daily and stuff. And it's like like I used to watch ⁓ like I had this kind of thing where my mates who would have prepped me over shows and stuff would have called me diet proof. But it was purely from a mindset of like, this is luxurious. I am intentionally eating less calories, I am intentionally doing more exercise and activity. I would have watched all of Furious Pete's vlogs. I don't feel like that's proper OG YouTube stuff, right? ⁓ if you're under 30, you might know who Fiore P is but No I have no idea. No idea. So you probably thought him in school. Yeah, I'm in school at him. Yeah. Not that fucking old cheese. He would have vlogged a lot of his stuff back in the day, right? He had cancer multiple times. And he would have exercised and trained through like his cancer. There's a picture of him or a video of him deadlifting, I think it was like 600 pounds when he was like during chemotherapy. And I was like, if he can do it, like I'm fine. Yeah, yeah. You know, ⁓ like I remember like one of the days he was like ⁓ he was ringing the bell, like when you finish your treat and stuff and he was ringing the bell and it was coming out. And I was like on a trip and I start crying. I like, this is easy. This is no problem. Let's do another 60 minutes. And I was like, it just all of a sudden gives you this perspective that it's like it's just exercise. Yeah. And I think that's the huge thing with like if you're trying to like get in shape, that's where a coach is so even that's the reason like a coach like me goes to a coach like you in the sense of like, I know 10 weeks in I'm gonna have a shitty week I know I'm gonna be No, I'm gonna like, ⁓ fuck, I'll just do a bit less steps because I'm tired, or it's fine. Whereas when you have a coach that's like It like you're grand. Just get on with it. Like don't get there's some lifestyle issues where you're like, we gotta work around that. But like sometimes you're just like, I'll just I'll I'll skip today's session. You're like, No, I can't 'cause Or you see a check in is not coming in. It's like, What's up, man? Yeah, yeah. I see you there. You're dodging me. What's going on? What's after happening? Yeah. You never did in fairness. But like you'll you'll see it and you'll know someone has kind of removed themselves a little bit, or you'll see it's been seen, or you'll see they haven't logged in something. I was like you kind of message and say, Listen, everything is fine. I don't know what's after happening. If there's something up, please do let me know. Here to support, here to guide. I'm not here to give you shit that if you have gone over your diet or if you have missed the session or if some life stuff has happened, it's all okay. This is not life or death. And we're here to manage 'cause like again, like we get people coming in that have had like some really poor experiences where, you know, I don't care that that major life event has happened to you. I need you to log your calories. It's like you don't realize what's going on. Like there's just more important things in those people's lives as well. And it's actually okay to have those little moments where you pause it and crack on then after. You it's off it's it's toss to again manage expectations that that's okay. You know, we can have those moments. 'Cause life is gonna happen. So again, let it happen and then cruise on. One of the things you mentioned just before we segment on to the where we talk about a few ⁓ Dick skin. You said you had the the rule of five for lads. Is it different for women? So you said lads typically have five kilos more fat. Would you manage expectations differently for women? I know obviously the lifestyle and everything else. Girls tend to be more realistic with it all. You know, because lads like put on a t shirt in their bulk and the t-shirt feels good and I remember you saying this to I was like, ⁓ t-shirts are starting to feel a bit loose. And I was Yeah, but you've you've got a sleeper physique now. So sleeper builders are looking. All of a sudden the baggy t-shirts, you don't look big in a baggy t shirt anymore, you just look like you're skinny underneath the baggy table. It's December, why are you going around the stringers? Yeah, it's it's cold, man. But like I look jacked back, I on my hoodie. Yeah, but for like the to come back to it, like again, lads tend to be like All weight going up is all muscle because I'm building muscle. It's like, ⁓ you're only training three days a week and we're not really, you know, going that hard with our training. So it's it's probably some body fat. Because like the rate of gain is really slow. But ladies tend to be a little bit more realistic. They probably don't realize how much muscle. It's very opposite again. They don't realize they have as much muscle tissue or that they've they've built as much over the years. Cause again, much harder for them to build it. And they'll they'll probably think they're the exact same. And we'll see this with ladies who are dieting down. You started at seventy, we got you to sixty-five. We've done a little bit of a gaining phase or an improvement phase. You've now got back up to seventy-two. You've probably put on two kilos of muscle because we've kept you in a good shape. So now you will no longer be sixty-five. And if you are, you're gonna be way leaner. Yeah. Because they have this comparison thing of sixty-five is my diet weight versus lads think, ⁓ yeah, I to ninety kilos, I'll definitely be like eighty five when I'm lean. Yeah. Literally going through that at the moment with a client. I know you'll know who I who you are when you're seeing this for her. She's like Fifty five, like fifty five is where I'm leanest. And I'm like, We were in a building phase for the guts of a year. Like you have put on bare minimum two kilo. 'Cause she's at like fifty seven now, being like, I need to get down to fifty five and I'm like, But you look class. This is where we we pull up the pictures and we're like 'cause we can be more objective around it as well too. You know, we're more subjective with it. And like we'll just nitpick it and look at it, Yeah, but yeah, I built more muscle, but like, you know, just a tiny bit of cellulite on my ass. Mm-hmm. Yeah, but look at all the muscle that we built. Yeah, yeah. That's like we're gonna now pull off the body fat. And when we can give the coaches eye on it and Well, here's two pictures. And I'm going to like level them out really close to each other. And you'll see clearly when I point out that look at our chest and shoulder, look at our legs, look at and it's not just body fat we're looking at only. We can see one hundred percent from the side profile, from the back, whatever. We know your lifts have been progressive, we know all this has been done. You are now less skinny, you have more muscle tissue. ⁓ and again, lads tend to be completely naive to it, and girls are the opposite. So they won't realise, you know. So if we could get kind of lads to train us like women will train way harder than lads too. You know, there's been training girls in on the floor, way harder than lads will. Yeah. ⁓ and way better as well, too, more diligent about technique and form and stuff too. So chances are they're probably going to build as much, if not more, than some lads who are training poorly. So again, it's to manage those expectations that yeah. Girls probably have more muscle than realise, lads definitely have less muscle than realise. Yeah. And it's one of those really bitter pills to swallow for the lads, particularly. So just the reality of it. It's like 'cause they don't want to die it down then. It's like, well, do you want to stay fat and less muscle? So if you want to gain more muscle, lose more fat first and then gain more. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Larry, it's it's great chatting you about this kind of stuff. I think even if we're going on to that like level seven, eight plus, that'd nearly be like an episode in itself of like that real kind of because we're where like if you were to take like, let's say to quickly think of like, okay, because most people watching this aren't going to be pro bodybuilders or trying to get in that kind of shape, what would you say is like the biggest thing that separates someone that can get to like A six or a seven in terms of like really good shape, do a photo shoot whatever, versus someone that like does go on to that like elite level athlete or bodybuilder or whatnot. Is it like is that where you get into the like very, very good genetics, reach that point and kind of are naturally there from an earlier age, versus also like enhancements to help get them there? Or is it like possible for your average person to get there with just yeah v starting from a very young age and building to to give a bit of a comparison that more people will understand because You won't understand physiques because there's so many different levels to it. If you think about the guy who's at the entry level in the office versus the CEO, that CEO has had way more sleepless nights. He's worked way harder. He's gone to way more networks. He's gone to he's studied longer. He's done more things. He's spent more time in the trenches. He's had way more stress based off that. He's had way more focus. He's had way less balance to get to the CEO. Like that's the pinnacle, it's the very top of the company. This is the same as what we're talking about. If we use a pyramid analogy with the the training and the physiques, like someone at the level one to level ten, the ten is the CEO, they have dedicated their whole life to that thing. And now the others are at that, you know, junior exec level, wherever it might be. It's like there's a long way to to local. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they'll be like, Fuck that guy, he's got good CEO genetics. It's like, no, they just they just haven't put in the time or the repetitions or spent enough time in a channel. Like you don't see many like 20 year old CEOs unless they've like built the company themselves. Yeah. So you know, it's like they're probably in their forties and fifties and sixties because they've been there for longer. And that's a big thing with it when it comes to physique. Much like a CEO. They'll get up the ranks much quicker, they'll move through, they'll have, you know, this disposition or They've come from a family of CEOs, you know, because they're just more clued in and chewed in. Their environment is completely different. Versus someone who has never had a business person in their life. Again, with the genetics thing, they've never had, you know, anything to even remotely suggest that they've got an ounce of muscle in their body. Because they just haven't done muscle building things. So have they spent enough time doing it? Have they earned the right to have more muscle tissue? Have they done the things? And more often than not, when you ask those difficult questions like, have you spent enough time, Jack, training muscles to Have you spent enough time under the bar to have a massive bench press? Yes or no? It's like, well, well I have. Okay, cool. Then you probably have a massive bench press. But if you haven't, we need to be realistic and say, Well, you are where you are because of what you've done so far. But we can still get you there. But just let's realise it's going to take a few more years. And that like again, people are like, Okay, back to work. Or fuck this, I'm done. I'm I'm never gonna I'm never gonna get a stupid genetics. Yeah. You know, because like there there's just levels to everything. And again, when you can like pull it back to like Fuck that guy, he's got good genetics. It's like maybe he's done more work to me. You know. Maybe his trend up to his eyeballs as well too. Yeah. But even at that, like, I've taken care for years and like, you know, been competitive bodybuilder. That's a long time ago. No enhancements now whatsoever. But like, you still have to do the work to it. It's like I still was getting up at four o'clock in the morning. I was still like prepping all my meals. Like, I get Facebook memories popping up from fifteen years ago, and there's like forty toberware toads now. And like Genuinely. It's like button in the rats, like. Yeah, like if if you would have known me or known like ⁓ or seen me back in the day, I had the six pack bag on my back, full of food for the day, no matter where I was going. Like they just didn't miss a meal or a rep or anything because that was completely my identity and that was everything I did. I was like, ⁓ meethead Larry. But that was my goal at the time. So I did all the things and definitely didn't have good genetic potential, but I still did enough to like You know, where it was going back in when the gym was locked in, getting the key and opening up yourself at midnight to go do a session, or to be on the stair mill at four o'clock in the morning, or prepping all the food, doing all things, you had to do the reps. Yeah. You know, and people just don't see that behind the work kind of scenes as well. Mm. They just see it every now and and think it's a bit of a highlight real. Yeah, yeah. You know. Yeah. So it's that's the reality of it. Yeah. So again, to come to the levels of it, there is absolute levels. Some can skip them faster, some takes way more longer to get there. Think it's interesting as well the way you mentioned, like I don't know if that we actually picked this conversation up on camera before you come in, but like when you were saying different levels, we had this plan out to say, right, we'll talk about level one to five here, level five to seven. And I'm explaining myself at like level seven and I'm like, Yeah, I'm a good nick, and when you came in, you like, Yeah, someone in good shape's a level three. You know? But it's like every time it's a different perspective as well. Yeah, yeah. And but every time you get to that next level, there's always gonna be someone a level above you. And it's not like, you know, level ten's linear. Level one, two and three might be some very simple things to do. And then level four is like a lot l a lot more simple things to do, but just doing it for a whole lot longer. Yeah. You know, but again, like too as a CEO now, so you've got like small companies have CEOs. Yeah. And Tesla and SpaceX have CEOs. And it's like Elon Musk and it's like he's different to like Joe Bloggs is a CEO of some small company, no disrespect. But there's levels to every different level as well too, right? Yeah. And it's just it's creating an understanding that I'm currently here. This is the gap. This is what I need to do to bridge it. If I'm not willing to do and I'm not prepared to do what it takes to bridge that, I need to reevaluate my goals. Because if you're still pissing about, ⁓ I'll never get a hundred kilo bench, but you've never benched, and it's like, well, it's not gonna happen. Yeah, yeah. You know, so it's like if you're ⁓ the that person who doesn't want to diet or the one the guy who wants to get in shape but doesn't want to train, it's like, cool, but it's not gonna happen. You can continually stress yourself out and bitch and moan about it, but it's not gonna happen. Yeah. If you're not saving money, don't expect anything to be in the bank. Yeah. You know, so it's like using that analogy all the time. Yeah. So like to the different levels, like to move on to that piece. again, different interpretations of it, but genuine, like let's call Bodybuilder on Stage twelve or ten, whatever you want to call it. It's like there's photo shoot a photo shoot, which would be level seven to eight compared because there's such a vast difference of like holiday lean, shoot lean, show lean. Yeah. Three very different things. Mm-hmm. And it will take much, much longer then again from that. The Shoot lean, people can get that with 16 to 26 weeks. It's gonna take you maybe six months for people. They need to have done enough time building muscle prior to that to actually have something to show off thereafter. You'll see a lot of people looking emaciated when they get to a photo shoot and it's just like cool, you did it, but we need to spend some time building muscle. No offense to they've the thing tick to box. But ⁓ the levels thereafter, again, like you're not allowing yourself to get as fat. You're really meticulous with your training, your tracking and The level of rigidity that goes up along with each next level. Like the bodybuilders are not like getting loosey-goosey with the food at all. They know exactly what there is. They are on the same food every single day. They are at the gym at the exact same time every single day. They are doing the same thing every time. They are like meticulous about their sleep. They're met it's just part of it. No different to like professional footballer. He's like ticking all the boxes to do that. Then the shoot like coming down below that. You know, you can get that in sixteen to twenty six weeks for the majority of people. Beach lean, you can do that in twelve weeks for the majority of people. But it just takes that extra level of detail up along each time. Yeah. You know, that you you cannot miss you can't miss anything if you want to get to bodybuilding. You can miss some things if you want to get to photo shoot. You can probably miss a lot of things and still get in shape for the beach if you know, in context with it. Yeah. Now if you're listening to that, don't go like smashing milk check and burger just because I said that. Yeah. You still need to I don't need to delete it all anymore. Yeah. It's like I don't need to do the thing. Yeah. It's like again there is levels of ⁓ attention to detail and levels of intensity, but the problem is that people are doing the level ten ten thing to get to level five. Yeah. And that's where it gets really diluted by a lot of people who get into the industry just from doing a shoot themselves. Mm. This is easy. I hate my job. I you know, I can get to copy and paste plans for people and just give them that. Yeah. And now all of a sudden they do a shoot and they get other people to do a shoot, and it's this. Copy and paste. Yeah. But the the problem is it's this roundabout of always doing a shoot. Like always doing a shoot. That's the reason people you're like, if you sign up with me, you're doing a shoot. It's like, no. Don't just not be I'm the shoot guy. And you know, like well, we're gonna you should really do a shoot. You know, I I had a a girl I helped out with some coaching before. Her very first day in the gym ever, like she came in a horrible place and really, really bad position. Her very first day in the gym, she got an induction. It happened to be with the wrong person who was a competitive bodybuilding coach. She put her hand out to press the green button to start the treadmill. She said, ⁓ I'll just press go. And your man saw her arms and he's like, You're really lean. Have you ever thought about doing a show? That was her induction. Within 30 seconds, she was told that she could go do a show. Therefore, she started her very first sixteen weeks in a gym ever was a prep. Jesus Christ, that's ludicrous. Where she was put on Chicken and broccoli, 800 calories a day, told to take drugs by the end of it. Like clen T3, the whole nine yards, don't worry about losing your menstrual cycle. This is normal. Like fuck that guy. You know what I mean? It's like properly. And you'll you'll see some, but you just don't hear about it. And from seeing so much of it over the years, there's so many horror stories with it all as well. And it can kind of sound like we're trying to shit on people with doing it, but when you've seen it and you know the kind of right and wrong, you're trying to steer people towards it. And again, we talk about shows and shoots, I've pulled more people out of preps than I've put them into it. Do you know what I mean? Just you're not in the right position right now. It's okay. We can do another one down the line. Just plenty of time to this. Because of XY and Z, you're going to get a really bad experience. And my name is attached to that and I'm not one to do it. Yeah, it's going to have like a net negative. Yeah, because you're protecting them and you. Because if they say, Yeah, I Lean with Larry, but I hated life and everything is really bad, not a good way for, you know, further sales. Yeah. You see that with a lot of people where they sign up with someone and it's just immediately Hardcore dieting and they get like I've even had people come to me with like, look at this is how I used to look, and it's like a photo shoot photo of them. And they're like, I'm never going back to that person again, but like I want to look like that. And you're like, Whoa, like you you're you're contrasting what's happening there in terms of how you looked at the end versus like how much the experience sucked. And it's like, let's find a middle ground there for You know, I'd I'd I'd love to be able to do an expose on it. Like the amount of people again that come to us. There's an ad that's running at the minute. It's got two point eight million views, because it got served to me the other day. Guy who did a photo shoot. Since that photo shoot, he's been doing a little bit of coaching with us. That ad is still running. With him in wicked shape, he is no longer in wicked shape. He's in hard position with these. Exercise, train, nutrition, lifestyle is a complete mess. But that's been advertised on socials. Hmm. Come coach with me, this is what you get. Yeah. Little do they know, here's the outcome of what you can actually get on the other side when it's done in a really shitty way and just promote it for sales. Yeah. I think it's it's impossible to talk to coaches on this podcast without getting to social media sucks sometimes. 'Cause so much smoke and mirrors out there with it. And I hate to bring it up 'cause it's like it's a fantastic 'cause we wouldn't know each other without social media, right? It's like there's so many lifelong connections and like I get all my clients through and it's fantastic and amazing. But at the same point I kind of feel it's ⁓ like our duty at times to like tell people it is not all great. And just to be aware of what's actually out there with it, like, you know. So I'm I'm super skeptical of it with people. I'm just trying to create an awareness of that. But anyway. Go down a rabbit hole. No, you're all good. If you want good social media, follow Larry. These are these are the kind of people. People we have on this podcast are people that are worth following. At least we hope and we keep it keep it that way. We've got two or three names that have popped up in different conversations about who we're getting on the podcast. Both of us just looked at each other like No, no, definitely not happening. No. Yeah. ⁓ I think we'll segment into our ⁓ quickfire. Yes. Are we so we'll we'll tell you about the quick fire thing, so Keith's job. This is a nice little we just like to do this at the end, Larry, with with folks that you have on the podcast. Just a little quickfire thing for people to get to know you a little bit more, okay? So he's looking at you like what it's not that deep. Take a sip at you to get myself ready here. Barries or Lions. Little decaf. ⁓ a decaf, good call, yeah. Yeah. On that myself a lot in the evenings now. ⁓ breakfast roll or full Irish? Or either. Full Irish. Yeah. I agree. Most overrated recovery tool at the moment in the fitness market, like ice bats, sauna foam rollers, that kind of thing. Foam rollers. Yeah. Foam rollers do nothing. Zero. Like zero. If you're like that's gonna piss a lot of foam roller people off on social media. Sorry, but no, they don't work at all. Like it like to actually manipulate tissue underneath that, you need like time, tension, and heat to actually do anything with the fascia. And from anyone that's actually seen any fascia, like segue on this, I've done a cadaver's, I've done multiple cadavers where literally take people's body and cut them open legally. just preface that. And to see the tissue underneath the skin and the actual fascia and the The whole muscle skeletal thing. Very different to what a foam roller can actually do. So yeah, full fair. Good insight. That's a detailed insight on that one. would you rather fight one horse sized chicken or a hundred chicken sized horses? I've had many chickens and I can I can handle them. Okay. But we also had one very large Baham chicken who I couldn't handle. So this I need to go into more thinking about that. A horse sized chicken potential. No, that's that was the Baham chicken that we had. So yeah, a hundred and size chicken horses. I never get when someone's like they'd fight a horse sized chicken. Like the chicken's that's fucking massive. ⁓ what's your favourite county in Ireland and you're not allowed to say your own? Galway. Mm. For the city or for the countryside? The countryside. Mm. Connemara. Yes. Let me get lost on a boat, on a lake, doing some fishing, out in Kylmore. Yes. Every day of the week. Love it. Love that. ⁓ what's your favourite oats topping? Every night I will have my oats, cottage cheese, raspberries, cinnamon. Jack is give me the fucking cottage cheese. I made scrambled eggs of it last week and it wasn't as bad. I'd now ease myself into Eased yourself in with fucking scrambled eggs. That's like level twelve. That's just levels that is stuff as well, yeah. Yeah. ⁓ the nice one, ⁓ the nice cottage cheese. That's one right, yeah. It's very good. I did taste the Aldi one and I was like, ⁓ my god. Okay, ⁓ good to know. We'll have to try it. what's your favourite TV show? Or even at the minute. At the minute, ⁓ Clarkson's Farm. ⁓ yes. Very good. Get better soon, try me. Didn't try the Hawkstone Lager yet. Which the Hawks Hawksmore Hawksone? Hawksone, I think it is Hawksmore. The Hawksmore. Yeah. I don't drink. So I'm yeah, non consumer. Zero alcohol one if it's if you could have one superpower, what would it be? ⁓ shit. That's the superpower? Control my shit. ⁓ I've been called Mel Gibson before from what women think. ⁓ that I can read people's minds, so that's kind of a superpower I think I have. Have that already. Nice. Time travel. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Good one. Good one. Where would you travel to? Shit. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ we'll get back to travel too, yeah. Sometime sometime back. I don't know. Yeah. Before kids, I would I would time travel and get some sleep. ⁓ and finish the sentence. Most people don't need a better plan. They need coaching from Larry. Good finish. Good finish. We'll take that. Just to finish, I'll have one more though because you mentioned the Newfound Highland book. Is that what was that the name you called it? ⁓ the Forgotten Highlander. The Forgotten Highlander. If there was two more books after doing this podcast, what should People go and read. ⁓ How to Win Friends and Influence People. Yes. Yeah, very good. then Hmm. With Winning in Mind by Lani Basham. ⁓ I haven't read that one. Yeah. He's a very interesting guy. I was fortunate to have a chat with him two years back on Zoom. ⁓ Lani is the nineteen sixty eight Olympic champion for pistol shooting. He does a lot of mental management. And kind of psychology around ⁓ high pressure situations. Very interesting guy. ⁓ his book With Winning in Mind. With Winning in Mind. Winning in Mind. Yeah, no, that was more so a personal question than just 'cause I thought that the first recommendation sounded good and I'm going straight on to Audible on the way home. I was gonna say Audible, yeah. ⁓ but I think that's the The wrap up for the two we just talking fitness podcast for today. Larry, it's been an absolute pleasure. I don't I I don't need to ask you to to plug your own stuff. You'll ⁓ you'll bought us to it. I've done it already. I knew it was gonna be We'll tag everything that you do below this, ⁓ but do you want to share out your ⁓ your handle, your podcast, your name, your fancy name and your coaching podcast? I had to do this the other day, I was asked my handle and I like, I had to go back out to my profile and look at it. Just Larry Doyle coaching, ironically with that. ⁓ it's that's we have fine with everything, yeah. But ⁓ like DMs are always open. Like people are kind of Hey, don't want to be bothering you about it. Like, bother me. Like just ask questions. And I'm not like one of those that'll plug coaching all the time, even though I just plug coaches. You're to help people help her first. And that's it, the podcast for today. So there's gonna be buttons all around here for the next video to go and watch. There's gonna be links below for the next podcast to go and watch. Please like, share, subscribe, do all of this. I'm EJ number one, Jackie Gaeli. This is EG number two, Keith O'Rourke. We'll catch you on the next one. See you next week. Happy days. Peace. Deadly. Peace I that. Who is the one that says piece at the end of the podcast? I know, like me and me and Daniel like have the kind of sign off and I was like, I'll always say Daniel on to the next one. And I'll like throw in a curveball intentionally and he just has this like awkward silence where he doesn't know what to say 'cause I broke the sequence. Yeah. And he's like, ⁓ just breaks off. ⁓ Deadly. Cheers. This was the post sex chat. I like, how's it for you? ⁓