TROPHY KILL:The Sequel—Dan Zupansky

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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
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killers in true crime history and the authors that have
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written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
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week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
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infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
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journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
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The opinions expressed in the following program are those of
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the participants and do not necessarily reflect those of the station.
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Good Evening, This is your host Stanzupaski for the program
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Off the Cuff here on University of Manitoba Radio one,
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a one point five um FM. Our program today is
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a very special edition. In a few minutes you'll be
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hearing an exclusive interview with Sidney Tierhues. Sidney Teerhues is
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the person who last year walked into the police station
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on Princess Avenue and stated that he had been drinking
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for some twenty four hours and had made an acquaintance
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named Robert Green and they had gone to the room
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Sidney was renting at the Royal Albert Hotel for consensual sex.
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Sidney told police that he had passed out and when
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he woke he found the acquaintance in the bathtub. He
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had been disemboweled, castrated, beheaded, with his arms and legs
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cut off, and several organs, including the heart missing. Teir
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Whu's claims he remembers nothing of the killing. We'll be
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speaking to him via telephone from jail in just a
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few minutes. Don't miss hearing this interview. In the second
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half of the program, I'll be speaking to Alex MacDonald
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and he is the author of Outrage Canada's Judicial System
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on Trial, and he is a former Attorney General of
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British Columbia and also a lawyer for many years. We'll
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be talking about the drunken defense and the insanity plea
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in what a defense lawyer's responsibility is to the truth.
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This person is going to court on May twenty eighth.
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That's his first appearance to set a preliminary hearing date,
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so it's more of a formality. I don't think we'll
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find out too many details, if any at all, on
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May twenty eighth, but there may probably will be some
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reporting of the story, just probably a reiteration of whatever
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facts that the newspaper has printed already, and that basically
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I gave you a synopsis of the information that's available
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to us right now. The information I'll keep you abreast
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while we wait for the phone call to come in,
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which should be about five minutes, is that these organs
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are still at present missing, and we'll act ask mister
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Ture whus which organs those are, and maybe we'll be
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able to venture into a question that approaches what might
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have happened to those organs. And one of the organs
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is missing is the heart, and the liver, and the kidneys,
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I believe, and the small and big intestines. But we'll
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get all those details from the person himself. Mister Brodsky
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is defending mister Tearhuse and has already hired a psychiatrist.
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So Tearhus was interviewed by the psychiatrist.
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Hopefully he'll be able to talk about that a little bit.
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He might not.
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This is my first official interview with him. I did
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two interviews at the Reman Center with him. On official interviews.
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I've been very fortunate to have somebody a connection on
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the inside. Which person will become remain nameless, but an
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opportunity that came that was so fortunate to be able
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to have someone right there to befriend him, and also
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more importantly, to be able to get a perspective that
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certainly I would not be able to have with this person,
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just based on the amount of time that this other
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person got to spend finding out a little bit about
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the person, and also, like I say, befriending him and
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asking him to give details of his past and details
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all just incredible amount of information, especially about his past.
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We're using this information in some form, either for a
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long story format like say rolling Stone or details something
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like that. But more importantly, there's a wealth of information
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that is coming from a unique perspective, and that's coming
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from Sidney himself. At some point point, I'll be reading
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some of this stuff that he has already written to me,
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and we have a mound of information already that's just
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fascinating when you hear his perspective and some of the
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things that in light of this killing, regardless of his guilt,
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and I'll say that tongue in cheek, regardless of his guilt.
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The thing is is that it is interesting, and I
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think it'll be interesting to anyone, but to hear his perspective,
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the things that he has as priorities right now, to
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think about to focus on and that he feels are
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most important.
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Now.
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It's an incredible portrait of this person, and I think
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this type of this type of individual is very complex,
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and I don't know what kind of conclusions I'll be
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able to come at the end of this journey, which
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should be some year or so because the court case
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will wind down to take about a year and a half.
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For that in the next half hour, don't go away
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after our interview, because the second part is very crucial
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and pertinent to the whole show, in that being that
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you don't find too many people that have been lawyers,
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successful lawyers, defense attorneys actually criticizing the hand that fed them,
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which is the defense attorney's association itself. This person, though
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after retiring, I guess, felt a necessity. I've interviewed him
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twice and he's very passionate person. But more importantly, other
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than the passion, is that some of the arguments he
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has is how the law has been changed through interpretation.
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For example, we'll be going into the next half hour
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talking about the drunken defense, how once upon a time,
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whether you were drunk or inebraded on some other drug
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was hardly an excuse for something as heinous as murder
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or rape. Now he will explain and give examples of
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how that interpretation has been bent and twist to the
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perpetrator's advantage and basically to the lack of public safety
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as a byproduct of this bending or twisting or further
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interpretation of the law. I will ask him, of course,
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about this in how it regards this case here, and
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ask him just hypothetical questions, giving him a scenario somewhat
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of the case that's before us right now, about the
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likelihood number one of his lawyer using that defense. But
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the question that's really been burning me, has been bugging me,
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is what is the lawyer's responsibility. Just in a short
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conversation with this attorney general, former attorney general and former
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lawyer and author, this person says, if say, for example,
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the client were to confess, then the lawyer's responsibility is
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not to give that client up.
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And then people were saying, well, I.
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Mean that means the lawyer has a responsibility to resign.
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But is that his responsibility to resign is that the
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law to resign, or is that we have to rely
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on his ethical, his ethics, his.
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Sense of ethics.
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So I want to find out exactly what the responsibility
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and especially giving him examples here of exactly what that
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defense attorney's responsibility is in determining the truth. And I mean,
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if this Sydney says, look at I did all this.
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I had sex with this person I took and this
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is one of the details.
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I mean, Night had to mention they picked up three disposable.
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Cameras and took some photos of some sex scenes or
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some sexual poses from this person that was inevitably murdered.
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But the police say that there was three cameras and
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there are photos of before the killing and after the killing. Now,
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Sydney claims that he doesn't remember anything.
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He was drinking for twenty four hours.
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He remembers the sex, remembers picking up the cameras, remembers
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the guy posing, remember having a few drinks, remembers all
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of this, but then at some point passed out and
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when he woke up in the morning in the bathtub
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was this person. He doesn't know how it happened, of course,
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he remembers nothing, but he was beheaded, castrated, disemboweled, arms
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and legs cut off and organs missing. That's the intriguing
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thing for me. Where are you know Organs missing right away?
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You think of cannibalism, don't you?
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I do? Anyway, this.
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What is the responsibility of the lawyer to determine whether
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he is not just going in front of the courts
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with some fanciful tale that obviously suits the perpetrator, But
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will it serve justice? Will it represent the truth? And
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is as a taxpayer we're footing the bill in a
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very very expensive bill, the most expensive type of case,
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a murder case. Now we're paying a big bill, a
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hefty bill, and do we even know what we're paying for?
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Is the lawyer's responsibility only to defend his client at all?
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Everything else is secondary to that. Whether he knows whether
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he did it, is he still is he obliged to
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drop out from the case if he knows the actual
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truth and the client confesses. Secondly, what's the lawyer's responsibility in.
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Trying to determine the truth?
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Or does again, like I said, does he just repeat
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whatever story that that criminal gives him, regardless of whether
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it sounds good or not? Does he test it? What's
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his responsibility? So those are the kinds of things we'll
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be talking about. He's written a really good book cut
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called outrage Canada's judicial system on trial, and he talks
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about many other things. So let me see what it
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is on Raincoast Books. I think it's a Canadian company.
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He's out of Vancouver now with the Sydney teerhiuse case.
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Some of the stuff that we're working on right now
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is some of the background. Obviously, I have not interviewed
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anyone that knows Sidney Turehouse in the past. Sidney Teerhouse
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has been adopted. He was an Aboriginal child adopted into
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Dutch immigrant family according to him, and as far as
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I can see, it was quite a wealthy family. They
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had sold their fortune or some of their I guess
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their company to Sarah Lee the dessert company Magnates, So
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apparently there was a fair amount of money in this
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within the family. And Sydney has written me and told
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me of elaborate surroundings and dinner parties and a lot
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of opulence and elegance surrounding the family when he was
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growing up. Sounds legitimate, Sydney. If you're wondering why on
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how on earth did he happen to have the kind
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of tools to be able to be head somebody castraight
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and disembowel them. He happens to be a chef and
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regardless of whether his specialty is desserts or not. And
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I've validated this. I found got cooperation on this that
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they do travel with a full sharp knife set with
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many types of knives. So that explains at least part
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of this in as far as less likely to be
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a premeditated affair. Anyway, he was staying at the Royal
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Albert because he was preparing to go back to Vancouver,
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where he had been trained as a chef, saw more
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opportunities and he just needed a place in the interim,
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and that's what was with the rental at the Royal Albert.
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This gentleman, it's weird. We don't really talk about the
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victim at all, but this Robert Green, and I'm hoping
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that's his first name. I believe that's what it is.
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Robert Green. Anyway, from a First Nations reserve. Apparently according
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to the pay if I'm not incorrect, this is the
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first time he had been in Winnipeg.
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This was his fate.
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Of course, we will not hear too much about this,
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and I will tell you right now be prepared for
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all kinds of sympathy for, of course, the perpetrator and
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the victim to be invisible in this, and the perpetrator
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will we will talk about his Aboriginal descent, how that
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was probably not proper, and how Sidney himself talks about
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abuse at the hands of his own family members. Again,
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none of this has been substantiated, but it very well
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could be true. His brother apparently a music teacher apparently,
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and more I guess disturbing is the relations sexual relationship
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with his mother, and at least that's what he says.
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Sidney Tyer, who is a self avowed homosexual but has
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lived with a woman and has a child that he
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had a relationship for a short period of time and
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now that person and that child live in California. Sidney
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would like to talk to today, and I'm really hoping
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he's getting on the line real soon, but it's a
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matter of it's just not as easy as him to
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pick up the phone where he is and just make
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a call. But I've been assured that this interview will
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happen today at this time. Now, Sydney has talked about
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his treatment while being incarcerated, and he'd wanted to talk.
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He wanted to talk about this on the program, how
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racism and equality and prejudice coming to play in the
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correctional system and the judicial system. And he is planning
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to fight or write some book concerning the plight of the.
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Aboriginal in prison. And I said, we.
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Could speak to that, but I had said that it
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would be more apt for someone not in his position
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to talk about that. It's not really fair for somebody
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in behind bars to talking about unfair treatment, especially when
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we should have somebody to balance that out. But more importantly,
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it's like when you have an issue of inmates complaining
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about the food or the taste of food, or the
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amount of food in jail. You really it's not much
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of a sympathetic story. Not too many people are necessarily interested,
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And to be honest, I'm not so interested compared to
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the rest of the story, which has got so many
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unanswered questions. And like I say, from the amount of
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information that I have, it is I cannot make any
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definitive inclusions out of this. And thus I think what
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will happen By the end of this I will have
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more conclusions, but I don't think I'll be able to
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neatly wrap this up in a conclusionary manner and say well,
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because of this, we have this, and if we didn't
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have this, and if we could change that. This is
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a case that will illustrate I think the inadequacy of
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the court system to be able to defend us from
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these kinds of people that we have to be defended against,
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because we can't certainly figure in our minds how we
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are able to prevent this person from this happening again.
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If we are to agree that this person is not
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criminally responsible for this, certainly, when will it be safe
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for this gentleman to walk on the streets again and
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be able to have sex and have some alcoholic drinks.
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When will it be safe for that to happen? How
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will we get an assurance or assurances that this will
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not happen again If this person had no control of
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it in the first place, then even once, if this
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person is convicted and sentenced to a time period of
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being institutionalized, I would really be interested in hearing how
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that would be resolved, how this problem can be communicated
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to other people to say, listen, this is not bound
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to happen again because of some of the things that
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we have done. So again, it's in an interesting case,
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and I'm hoping he calls.
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It's unfortunate anyway.
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Right now, I guess I'll just while we're waiting for
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this person, I guess I'll read some of this information
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from Sydney Torhus to keep you on the line in
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case he does call, and we're going to keep that
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line open for him now. Sydney has has claimed that
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his childhood was very disturbing. Like I say, his mother
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and himself were involved in a sexual relationship and this
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is something he has spoken to and his brother apparently
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abused him, and you know, just for some of the
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other parts of this story, said he met a transsexual
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Michelle and became her roommate. There this is a story
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of a lot of cocaine abuse and alcohol abuse. Sydney
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has talked about his his own sexual history, which involves
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s and M and bondage, humiliation and some of the
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water sports, some of those things that I think, as
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this story goes on, he has made them sound like
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they're very important. However, he is very articulate, and as
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a result of that, I do not think that these
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things should be considered in this crime whatsoever. And I
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think a lot of people would love to jump to conclusions,
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believing that certain what they would consider a barrent behavior,
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strange sexual behavior, and likes and dislikes are some kind
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of indication of a lifestyle that comes with it. Whenever
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you hear about a prostitute being murdered somehow or other
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in a roundabout way, it's the conclusion is while the
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person got what was coming to them in a roundabout way,
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that the lifestyle that was associated with this prostitution was
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their end result. And thusly it seems like there's not
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much emphasis put on trying to find the murderers of
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these type of people, or at least put it this way,
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the story about the murder of this person because they're
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a prostitute is very unique in that the person's identity
302
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is lost to the headline of prostitute dead. So, for example,
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you know, in this particular case, Sidney to your house
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if you're curious, is in headingly right now. For those
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that don't know, of course, he has been refused bail
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and is in custody, and he's going back from Remand
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Center to Headingley Correctional Center. Neither one is a federal
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prison as of yet, because he hasn't been sentenced. He
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goes to the Reman Center when he is getting closer
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to court dates, so I believe he will be a
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part of me transferred to the Reman Center shortly, so
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he'll be able to attend court more readily than being
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in headingly. Now, some of the stuff that Sidney has
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told me is hard to separate from fact and fiction.
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And he has told me about a cancer about that
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he cured in the last or overcame in the last
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couple of years. Again, that'll be my job to go
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through some of this stuff and to separate the fact
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from the fiction. According to the person that's been facilitating
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these interviews, that he believes that there is at least
321
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a somewhat detachment from reality and sort of illusions of
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a grandeur, delusions of grandeur just really somewhat of a
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fantasy parallel to his life. When he described certain events,
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they're very, very elegant and sophisticated and sound like something
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from a movie script, when in reality, this gentleman claims
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that it may be even a direct opposite of that,
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and it might be part of Sydney's delusionment.
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Basically, the.
329
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Romanticizing of some of the events of his life, and
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I don't even make a conclusion on why. And there's
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a lot of people I guess that'll elaborate on some
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00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:09.960
things aspects of their life. Now, it looks like there's
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00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:15.960
been some problem with mister Tearhuse. Is unfortunate. I'm hoping
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00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:19.880
that we can rearrange this again. Made sure that this
335
00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.559
was supposed to be solid. I've spoken to him recently
336
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as yesterday, so I'm having a problem with that. But
337
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we will go for a commercial break in a few minutes.
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Let me just find something that can amuse you for
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00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:39.920
the next few minutes. Now. When the psychiatrist came to
340
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the Remann Center with Sidney Tearhus, he had spoken about
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forty seven stab wounds that were part of the crime scene.
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And what was interesting is I asked Sydney about the
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encounter with the psychiatrists, and the psychiatrist said, Sidney, here's
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some photos of the body in the eight pieces, and
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they put the body roughly together for some reason, I guess,
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on a steel table. And Sidney's comment was he was
347
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surprised and even shocked by the amount of shrinkage that
348
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that meat had had over that period of time. And
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as well, I had asked him what the psychiatrist had said,
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and the psychiatrist had said to Sidney that he didn't
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think the stab wounds were random, in that he saw
352
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a pattern of a U and an eight in the
353
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forty seven stab wounds, which I thought was interesting, and
354
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that Sidney said he could not see that pattern. And
355
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I concluded from that, or surmise from that, that Sydney
356
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could not see that pattern or agree with that pattern.
357
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And I also, again it's just my surmising that what
358
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:56.680
has happened as a psychiatrist is trying to paint a
359
00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:02.400
picture of irrationality, but yet a sort of a ritualistic
360
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killing aspect to this indicating insanity and rather than stab
361
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forty seven times and maybe looking at it at a
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more rational way in as far as the way I'm
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00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:20.759
looking at and I'm speaking to some other people in
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this area, that when you're dealing with a beheading and
365
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arms cut off and lakes cut off, you're really looking
366
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to transport that body away from the crime scene.
367
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.200
It's not a matter of anger. It was it was done.
368
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Deliberately and surgically as far as we know so far,
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so it looks like someone was trying to take that
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body out, or at least that's an indication from people
371
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that would do that to the body after the forty
372
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seven stab wounds. Anyway, we have a phone call right now.
373
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Maybe this is the person we've been waiting for this.
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Give us a second and we'll find out. Otherwise we
375
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will be going to commercial. But hang on one second,
376
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Hang on one second, we'll find out.
377
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Be patient.
378
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:26.880
Anyway, the psychiatrist had also said that he had thought
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that he had there was some premeditation, or he offered
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the other option that there was just a sick fantasy.
381
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And I asked him how that conversation developed, and he
382
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:41.319
couldn't explain it, and claiming only that it may have
383
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:45.200
emanated from his sister as he gave permission to speak
384
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to her. So it's incredible that to see what the
385
00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:52.440
angle will be in the defense of this.
386
00:24:57.559 --> 00:24:58.599
Do we have our caller on this.
387
00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:03.000
What's happened is he called the sort of the interim
388
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:05.599
connection and he is on their line. But when they
389
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:07.960
try and call this line, they're getting a busy signal.
390
00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:12.440
But as you can see, we don't have any incoming calls.
391
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:15.839
So right, yeah, so we're kind of hung up on
392
00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:18.680
that he's trying it by a cell phone right now. Okay, okay,
393
00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:22.559
so just stay posted. He just called about four minutes ago.
394
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:26.079
Okay, okay, So a little technical problem here.
395
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:26.519
It's uh.
396
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:29.599
If you saw the the hurdles we've had to be
397
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:35.559
able to get him on, it's incredible. And now that's
398
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:38.519
the thing that I'm We're getting a phone call. Now,
399
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:49.680
let's see if we have that. Now Hello is it
400
00:25:52.359 --> 00:26:04.720
hello Sydney, Hello, Sydney, Hello, Sydney, Hello, Sydney Hello.
401
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:17.000
Hello. Wow, this is interesting.
402
00:26:20.599 --> 00:26:23.119
Seemed like it got through, but it didn't click over.
403
00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:29.079
I wonder if there's certain locks and conditions on transferring calls.
404
00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:29.599
That's off.
405
00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:33.319
Now we have a last year. Well, let's go to
406
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.200
station break then and try to get this going in
407
00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:39.440
the station break if we can. Sorry for subjecting you
408
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:42.279
to this technical error, but hopefully be worth it when
409
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:43.000
we do get him on.
410
00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:44.640
So please stay tuned.
411
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:56.759
We're going to go for commercial break right now. Hi,
412
00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:58.640
this is your host stand up basket for the program.
413
00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:01.240
Off the cuff, very sorry or the technical error in
414
00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:04.200
the last half hour, however, we have on the line
415
00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:09.000
from Vancouver, British Columbia, mister Alex McDonald and he is
416
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:11.519
the former Attorney General of British Columbia and he's been
417
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:13.680
a lawyer for many years. And also he is an
418
00:27:13.720 --> 00:27:17.680
author and author of Outrage Canada's Justice System on Trial.
419
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:21.039
Thanks very much for agreeing to this interview, mister McDonald.
420
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:24.160
Well, I'm very glad to be interviewed. I hope you
421
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:25.119
have snow tires.
422
00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:27.559
Yeah, that's what we got here. We got a whole
423
00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:30.920
lot of snow going on. Yes, what I was speaking
424
00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:33.799
to you just briefly the other day was about a
425
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:38.359
particular case that I'm following with great interest, especially having
426
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:42.519
been involved with People for Justice and People for Justice
427
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:47.799
as a media and media affairs person. And basically what
428
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:49.519
I wanted to ask you was about some of the
429
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:52.079
things that you wrote in your book about a drunken
430
00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:54.799
defense which applies in this particular case. And I'll just
431
00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:56.599
put you up to speed.
432
00:27:56.359 --> 00:27:57.359
On this particular case.
433
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:00.759
This gentleman claims he walked in to the police station
434
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:04.079
and claimed that after twenty four hours of drinking he
435
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:07.279
had met this acquaintance and went up to this hotel
436
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:11.119
room for consensual sex him and this gentleman, and at
437
00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:13.839
some point he passed out and does not and when
438
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:16.359
he woke up in the morning, the acquaintance was in
439
00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:19.640
the bathtub with his head missing, his arms and legs
440
00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:24.440
cut off. He was disemboweled and castrated, and his organs
441
00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:27.279
were missing. Some major organs are missing, including his heart.
442
00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:31.000
This person walked into the police station said myle my,
443
00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:33.880
I don't remember what happened, but this is the end
444
00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:34.480
result here.
445
00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:35.880
I can't remember a thing.
446
00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:39.839
Now he has hired one of the better attorneys in Winnipeg,
447
00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:41.680
if not the best, or one of the best again.
448
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:46.359
And as also that attorney has hired a psychiatrist. And
449
00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:48.920
I wanted to ask you because they do talk about
450
00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:52.160
in your book about how the law has been interpreted
451
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:54.720
differently regarding the drunken defense.
452
00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:56.799
So please, if you could tell.
453
00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:01.319
Us about the law previous to the different interpretation, if
454
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:05.519
we'll say, of the law regarding drunken defense.
455
00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:09.720
Well, the first point is that somebody accused of impaired
456
00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:14.599
driving now has in the investigative process, before they've been
457
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:18.599
offered a breathalyzer, they have a right to a lawyer.
458
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:22.960
A lawyer can't do anything for them. He's not supposed
459
00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:26.480
to obstruct justice. And all he can say is you've
460
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:29.680
got to you've got to blow into that breathalyzer because
461
00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:35.599
the law says you have to. But nevertheless, failure to
462
00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:39.359
give adequate time to get a lawyer is fatal to
463
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:44.440
a conviction for impaired driving. Then you've got the other case.
464
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:49.680
You've got to There's times when somebody who's about to
465
00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:55.400
be accused of impaired driving or swallows a swallows a
466
00:29:55.400 --> 00:29:59.559
mickey of liquor after he stopped his car and taking
467
00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:02.599
the keys out. Now, how could you prove that he
468
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:07.400
was drunk before enough to be convicted of impaired driving.
469
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:10.640
So there are all kinds of dodges. The result is
470
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:14.960
that our impaired driving case has been taking enormous amounts
471
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:20.440
of time in the court and a tremendous drain usually
472
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:27.000
on legal aid. So we're departing from getting at the
473
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:29.599
truth of the thing to a tremendous extent.
474
00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:33.319
That's the main theme that goes through your book is
475
00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:38.799
that the end result of this, the sad result of this,
476
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:41.920
is that the truth is lost and the main intent
477
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:43.599
of the law has been lost as well.
478
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:49.640
Of course, courts are supposed to be truth seekers. That's
479
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.480
the object of a court criminal case to seek the truth,
480
00:30:54.920 --> 00:30:58.960
along with the safeguards that you must be proved guilty
481
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:01.440
beyond the reasonable doubt, that you have a right to
482
00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:05.759
full answered defense, and all the rest the truth seeking process.
483
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:09.240
And this is becoming less, it's becoming much less. So
484
00:31:09.640 --> 00:31:13.279
evidence is thrown out for no good reasons.
485
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:16.599
Now, I know you're not looking at this case with
486
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:20.079
all the information available, and I certainly not don't have
487
00:31:20.119 --> 00:31:22.720
all the information available, but just looking at this from
488
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:24.880
sort of a little bit of an overview that I've
489
00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:28.359
given you, is there a difference in the way that
490
00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:31.119
someone can use the drunken defense in this.
491
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:32.839
Particular case that I spoke about.
492
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:36.000
Is it a fair assessment that the lawyer will take
493
00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:41.160
advantage of the new interpretations or the new readings of
494
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:45.359
the law to try to state potentially that this person did,
495
00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:49.519
indeed was an Ottoman, or was not criminally responsible for
496
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:52.640
the crime because of virtue of the drunkenness.
497
00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:56.680
Yeah, there was a case in Montreal not too long ago,
498
00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:59.680
and I forgot I can't remember too much about it now,
499
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:05.160
But this fellow, the woman was in a wheelchair. She
500
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:07.319
sat up with him and had a small drink and
501
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:12.160
went to bed in another room. The accused of the
502
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:17.359
whole bottle of liquor with him, and she was beaten
503
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:24.160
up and raped and I think killed. Before the thing
504
00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:28.279
was all over, the accused polished off a whole bottle
505
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:34.160
of cognac I think it was, and he was found
506
00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:37.920
to be an automaton, got off. So that what you're
507
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:41.720
talking about with your Winnipeg case, you'll find precedences all
508
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:45.519
over the place. You'll find somebody up on thempared driving
509
00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:49.039
as a woman who had a mickey in her purson
510
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:52.000
when she's asked to do the breath list, she said,
511
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:54.359
I want to go to the bathroom. She goes in there,
512
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:59.039
polishes off the mickey and takes a breath. Incredible, doesn't count.
513
00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:05.160
Pretty smart now in a case that again, the lawyer
514
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:08.480
is the same mister Brodsky in this case. And I
515
00:33:08.599 --> 00:33:12.359
didn't follow entirely the entire story, but the title is
516
00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:16.119
killers Insanity, Phony, and it's the judge careful disposal of
517
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:19.160
body rational. And he said that he acted in a
518
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:23.640
highly organized and rational fashion after the killing. And he
519
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:26.480
said he presented as a rational person, trying to diffuse
520
00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:30.680
his responsibility for the crime. And I said, I found
521
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:34.680
that he was unreliable, at times untruthful. So basically, this
522
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:39.279
person tried to fake some symptoms apparently according to the
523
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:43.160
judge of mental illness, but the seeking a finding of
524
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:46.880
not criminal responsibility, which would have landed him in a hospital,
525
00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:50.599
was put off. That he's convicted a second degree murder,
526
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:53.559
basically in a minimum of at least ten years before
527
00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:57.359
he gets parole. Basically because if I'm not correct of
528
00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:00.599
the organized and rational fashion after the killing, if we
529
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:03.920
were to put that to this case here, what it
530
00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:06.720
would be is that this person, I'll give you a
531
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.480
couple more details, is that this person stabbed this person
532
00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:13.599
forty seven times and then there was the decapitation in
533
00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:16.559
the heads and head and arms and legs were missing.
534
00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:20.559
And I'm not an expert, but it just is an indication.
535
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:24.800
Sometimes I think of many people dispose of bodies by
536
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:27.880
cutting the body into pieces that are easier to dispose of.
537
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:31.039
Sure, And isn't to think about something like that.
538
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:35.760
Sure, And that's where I'm thinking that this drunken defense.
539
00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:38.639
Might not stick.
540
00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:43.159
In particular when we see this other decision, and also
541
00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:46.400
because of the there is some kind of rational thought
542
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:48.760
that he is supposed to be not be able to
543
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:52.440
be rational because of his inebriation of his drunkenness. Do
544
00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:54.440
you think that there might be an aspect of that.
545
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:59.280
Apparently your case is still to be tried, Yes, so
546
00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:02.800
it's on going. We can't talk too much about it, Okay,
547
00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:07.239
if he was mentally ill. Very many criminals to some
548
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:12.199
extent are mentally ill. Right, they have a burst of
549
00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:16.400
temper and kill a girlfriend and so forth. But what
550
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:20.320
the law has got to concern itself mostly with did
551
00:35:20.360 --> 00:35:24.280
you do this act of your own volition? And if
552
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:27.280
you were mentally ill, that is something that must be
553
00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:30.320
taken into account by the judge and sentencing and by
554
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:34.239
the parole authorities, and the rest and perhaps rehabilitation is
555
00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:39.760
called for. But we're getting away further and further away
556
00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:44.280
from did you do it? Which should be the primary
557
00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:46.480
question asked by the court.
558
00:35:48.039 --> 00:35:52.559
Now with this, and I plead ignorance on this, I'm
559
00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:56.719
not really sure of exactly the responsibility of the defense attorney.
560
00:35:57.199 --> 00:35:59.480
And we had spoken just in private, and you had
561
00:35:59.480 --> 00:36:02.559
said that if the person his client were to confess,
562
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:06.199
it is not his responsibility to go to the authorities
563
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:10.400
and express that or state that confession. Now, is it
564
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:15.039
the lawyer's responsibility to not continue with the case, or
565
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:16.880
is that his choice in.
566
00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:20.480
That particular case, He's not supposed to put somebody into
567
00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:24.440
the witness box who he knows is deliberately lying. Okay,
568
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:27.519
but that's about all. Otherwise he can lie in the weeds.
569
00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:32.400
He can. I've just written another article on this. Maybe
570
00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:38.280
it's in Winnipeg, I don't know. And there's disclosure at
571
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:46.039
the moment, the criminal defense lawyer says, not guilty, were
572
00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:50.480
the accused us? And that's all. In the meantime, he
573
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:56.039
has a right to review fully every scrap of evidence
574
00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:59.440
the crown has in its position, including wire tabs and
575
00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:04.320
all the rest. Sometimes that's thousands of pages of evidence.
576
00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:06.920
But he doesn't have to say a word. And then
577
00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:09.679
at the end he can decide what the defense will
578
00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:11.880
be and whether or not to put the accused into
579
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:16.119
the box. And he may he might very well come
580
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:19.119
out of the weeds and have an ambush and say
581
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:22.119
yes he did it, or no, somebody else did it,
582
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:25.920
he wasn't even there, or he was mentally ill, or
583
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:33.800
whatever defense it might be. So mutual disclosure of the evidence,
584
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:37.880
which is now almost common in Great Britain, it's common
585
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:43.239
in New Zealand is essential if we're to get to
586
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:48.159
trials that are more truth seeking and avoid enormous delays.
587
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:53.079
We've got the Air India case out here. Another thing
588
00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:55.880
I wrote and wrote about and may interest you, is
589
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:01.159
missing witnesses organized crime. Not the ordinary run of the
590
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:07.079
mill crime, but with organized crime increasingly witnesses are intimidated
591
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:10.960
or killed. I mentioned they are India, and this has
592
00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:12.920
been in the papers, so I can mention it on
593
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:18.480
the air. Two witnesses who were going to be called
594
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:24.280
by the crown, both distinguished journalists, were killed before the
595
00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:30.000
trial began, one in England. That's how far they it
596
00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:35.400
can go. How many were just intimidated? Who knows? So
597
00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:40.159
this question of the intimidation of witnesses, if the witnesses
598
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:45.199
to a criminal thing that has injured the safety of
599
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:51.239
society were required to trot down to the courthouse and
600
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:54.199
before a Justice of the peace make a statement about
601
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:57.079
what they know about it, everything they know about it,
602
00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:02.800
with searching but not tricky questions right away. Well, their
603
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:08.199
memory is fresh and before there's any opportunity to intimidate
604
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:11.880
them or kill them, then we would have our rational
605
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:16.480
justice system. But non disclosure by the defense. The right
606
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:19.360
to lie in the weeds is treated by us as
607
00:39:19.400 --> 00:39:23.840
a sacred cow, and other common law jurisdiction not the
608
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:27.320
Americans are coming to the conclusion that that is not
609
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:33.800
the way to conduct a fair criminal prosecution. Now that's
610
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:34.840
another question.
611
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:39.320
Now with the definition of insanity in a sort of
612
00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:41.400
I don't want to speak to this case like you say,
613
00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:44.559
it's not it hasn't had its first appearance yet. But
614
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:47.599
just as an example, we'll say, if a case was
615
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:50.880
similar to that, how would you define or how does
616
00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:54.360
the court defined insanity in as far as not being
617
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:56.119
criminally responsible for the.
618
00:39:56.039 --> 00:40:00.320
Act like this company, They say, the old mcnonton rule
619
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:02.760
is he didn't know the difference between right and wrong
620
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:06.280
when he did this thing. Didn't know the difference between
621
00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:10.920
right and wrong. That's the old rule and it still
622
00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:11.480
carries on.
623
00:40:13.480 --> 00:40:16.880
So if if there is any proof in this particular
624
00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:19.360
case or a case like this, where this person tried
625
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:22.440
to cover up the crime in any way, then that
626
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:27.639
would lend itself that this person was not is in fact.
627
00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:30.079
Crime I would I would think the crown and the
628
00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:33.320
case you mentioned will be trying its best to show
629
00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:38.719
rational conduct to cover up after the person was killed.
630
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:43.639
But whether they can succeed in doing that, I don't know.
631
00:40:44.599 --> 00:40:47.760
Okay, Now, as far as the responsibility of the lawyer,
632
00:40:48.440 --> 00:40:51.800
it's still you said he is able to not he's
633
00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:55.079
obliged by law not to put this person up if
634
00:40:55.079 --> 00:40:57.599
he believes the person is lying. Now, in a case
635
00:40:57.880 --> 00:41:01.000
like this case, how far does he have to go
636
00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:03.639
in determining that? Because this sounds like hard for it.
637
00:41:03.760 --> 00:41:06.159
You know, a criminal defense lawyer who makes his living
638
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:11.440
practicing as a criminal defense lawyer, He may very well
639
00:41:11.480 --> 00:41:17.760
suspect their client story is hokum, but he can't. He
640
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:20.679
still has to give that person the right to go
641
00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:22.599
into the box and tell him to the judge and
642
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:26.000
jury and see whether they believe it. So when you
643
00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:30.800
say you can't put in a witness that is deliberately lying, well,
644
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:35.519
that's the extreme case. It's done very regularly to give
645
00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:38.760
the accused the right to make his give his story.
646
00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:45.599
Interesting, how how if he was deemed not criminally responsible
647
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:48.000
for his crime, and he was put, for example, in
648
00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:52.800
a mental institution of some form, what what is the
649
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:57.239
what is his status then? Is he is it the
650
00:41:57.239 --> 00:42:00.599
the institution determines when he is now able to be
651
00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:02.159
retried for that same crime.
652
00:42:02.199 --> 00:42:02.920
How does that work.
653
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:06.239
Well, we've sort of modernized the law there. He's entitled
654
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:12.679
if he's in custody, he's in a mental institution, he's
655
00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:17.880
entitled to periodic reviews. Whether it's every five years or shorter,
656
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:22.559
I can't remember, but he's entitled to a periodic review
657
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:26.159
of his condition. And it may be that he's mentally
658
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:32.119
totally rehabilitated after five years, and in that case, he's released,
659
00:42:33.559 --> 00:42:37.039
doesn't pass the review, he's still held in custody.
660
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:44.519
So basically, the psychiatrist becomes our arbitrator or our determiner
661
00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:45.599
of whether this.
662
00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:51.559
Person is A panel of two or three doctors would
663
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:56.719
determine whether he is still suffering from the mental illness
664
00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:59.639
that was instrumental in the crime.
665
00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:03.000
Now, you had talked about that, we have to actually
666
00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:06.280
determine if someone is actually mentally ill and deal with
667
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:09.440
that appropriately. Now do you think there is an over
668
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:13.320
categorization of mental illness in the courts by defense attorneys
669
00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:15.920
and maybe even by society itself.
670
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:21.119
Well, it's a possible defense. In the case I mentioned
671
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:24.920
to this fellow raped and killed a woman and drank
672
00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:29.800
that kind of a defense, is there criminal lawyers know
673
00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:32.880
about it, and if there's a chance of it succeeding,
674
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:34.079
I think they will try it.
675
00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:37.320
Sure, have you seen a shift in the courts in
676
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:38.679
your years of being a lawyer?
677
00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:43.440
Oh? Yes, you know a case that in the in
678
00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:46.800
my time, I had a murder case on Gabriel Island.
679
00:43:48.519 --> 00:43:52.159
That case took three and a half days and there
680
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:56.920
were about fifteen or twenty witnesses and I got the
681
00:43:56.960 --> 00:43:59.599
fellow office, which by the way, he murdered. Again I
682
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:02.239
shouldn't have got about. I can. I'll tell you the
683
00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:05.119
whole story of that case. But I'm saying that the
684
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:09.920
case the judge was in charge of the court lawyers
685
00:44:09.920 --> 00:44:15.800
who wanted to be repetitive and irrelevant and bring up
686
00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:18.760
all kinds of ridiculous points about you've got to suppress this,
687
00:44:18.840 --> 00:44:21.679
and you've got to suppress that, even though it bore
688
00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:24.519
on the truth that the judges had no patience for
689
00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:27.960
that kind of thing, and a strong judge would conduct
690
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:31.159
a fair trial, but it would not be a long,
691
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:38.159
costly drawn out thing by the defense lawyers. It is today.
692
00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:40.440
You know, even in impaired case, God, how long does
693
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:40.800
it take?
694
00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:42.559
That's incredible.
695
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:47.000
Now we always hear this catchword, which is precedent in
696
00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:50.280
a supposedly that when we hear a very lenient sentence,
697
00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:54.920
say a conditional sentence for vehiclear manslaughter, in fact, even manslaughter,
698
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:57.719
which we have seen since nineteen ninety six or so,
699
00:44:57.800 --> 00:45:02.360
since they've been enacted. Now, are you seeing with these
700
00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:06.800
cases of a leniency in the courts that you didn't
701
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:07.480
see before?
702
00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:11.679
In a yes, I would say on balance, I think
703
00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:14.719
the answer to your question is right. I think in
704
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:19.079
the provincial court judges that they have a case and
705
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:22.920
they know this is a very disturbed person very often
706
00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:26.239
that they have been dealing with, and do they take
707
00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:29.599
that into account if they can. If there's no minimum sentence,
708
00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:34.039
they might they might take into account. They would probably
709
00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:39.880
take into account Contrition. Is the accused feeling badly about
710
00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:42.639
what he has done and or not?
711
00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:46.159
Shouldn't shouldn't that just be a given? Shouldn't you show
712
00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:49.840
some remorse anyway instead of being instead of being congratulated
713
00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:50.159
for it.
714
00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:56.039
If he's psychopathic, he will feign contrition, right, might not
715
00:45:56.199 --> 00:45:57.400
really be contraded at all.
716
00:45:57.760 --> 00:46:01.480
No, The idea I was talking about is we always
717
00:46:01.519 --> 00:46:06.360
hear the precedent cited that because there was another low sentence,
718
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.800
and they're just going by these guidelines and almost like
719
00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:11.440
their their hands are tied the decant. They can only
720
00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:14.480
follow the precedent. But like I had asked you thirty
721
00:46:14.559 --> 00:46:16.480
years ago or twenty five years ago, it was a
722
00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:19.960
much more severe precedent that was being set each and
723
00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:23.519
every time. So that word precedent seems to be very
724
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:27.800
elastic and not so written in stone like they'd like
725
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:30.519
to make us believe that. Oh geez, I'm just following
726
00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:35.360
what happened before. I mean, obviously some lighter, less or
727
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:38.239
more you know, more lenient precedent was set as well.
728
00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:40.440
So precedent isn't written in stone, is it?
729
00:46:41.320 --> 00:46:46.280
No, it isn't. And judges are human, they realize they're
730
00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:49.239
dealing with human beings. But the other factor in the
731
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:54.119
courts I mentioned the provincial court. We've got grow ups
732
00:46:54.559 --> 00:46:55.519
in British Columbia.
733
00:46:55.519 --> 00:46:57.519
You know what a grow up is, yes, I do.
734
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:01.360
You wouldn't have been in Manitoba. There's a couple of business.
735
00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:05.320
It's big, you know, BC bud sure goes over the line,
736
00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:10.639
makes lots of money, and lenient sentences are handed down
737
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:14.239
if there is a conviction. But mostly they're not charged,
738
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:18.039
they're not even charged. Sometimes the police will locate one,
739
00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:21.760
go in and dismantle it and go on knowing that
740
00:47:21.800 --> 00:47:25.119
the court case will take ians of money and ians
741
00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:29.480
of time. And the courts are over overloaded. And that's
742
00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:33.920
because our criminal justice procedures since the Admen of the Charter,
743
00:47:34.039 --> 00:47:39.199
has become so technical and so strung out and so
744
00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:44.079
costly that it is something that the society can't possibly
745
00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:46.000
deal with all the cases in the way it should.
746
00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:50.239
When the public looks at something and I'm part of
747
00:47:50.280 --> 00:47:52.679
the public as well, and we see cases like the
748
00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:55.679
Rodney King case and the OJ Simpson case, and we
749
00:47:55.760 --> 00:47:59.880
see more and more our idea of justice doesn't seem
750
00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:04.039
to make sense. It doesn't correspond. Do we really have
751
00:48:04.639 --> 00:48:08.639
Do you really see a situation where the court system
752
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:13.320
itself has been corrupted at least in getting the kind
753
00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:16.000
of results like we have DNA as this big breakthrough
754
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:21.199
in evidentiary. And yet at the same time, we won't
755
00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:24.639
necessarily rely on that. We're still in an emotional state
756
00:48:24.679 --> 00:48:26.719
like we were thirty or forty years ago, ready for
757
00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:28.440
the lynch mob to go and get the first guy,
758
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:31.320
and reacting in a very emotional manner.
759
00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:34.519
Do you know if you were a police officer and
760
00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:37.199
you knew what the court case you're running into is
761
00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:39.840
going to come up with, which had nothing much to
762
00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:41.920
do with what you had seen and what you knew
763
00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:46.079
had happened, and there was an injured person involved, you'd
764
00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:52.360
be very tempted to color your evidence. Sure, maybe suppress
765
00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:54.639
the bad parts and bring out the good parts for
766
00:48:54.719 --> 00:49:00.400
the crown, Maybe lay a heavy hand on the accute.
767
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:05.679
They're they're tempted. Our police forces are very good in
768
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:11.159
terms of vigilanti justice. They don't that temptation is there
769
00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:15.039
and you can't blame them, sure, totally.
770
00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:19.400
No, not when not when you see in the worst
771
00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:24.239
case scenarios, killers walking away, rapist pedophiles walking away by
772
00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:27.119
virtue of our system, which we as taxpayers we pay
773
00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:27.960
a hefty price for.
774
00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:32.199
I know. The police are human beings too. For the
775
00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:37.159
most part, they're very upright, I'm honest, and they only
776
00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:41.519
lay a charge when it's amply justified. Go to the crown, counts,
777
00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:42.840
say lay this charge.
778
00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:44.639
Sure.
779
00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:47.800
Now, we've only got about a minute here. I just
780
00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:50.519
wanted to ask you as well, do you think that
781
00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:54.920
the defense attorneys, the association or as a group the
782
00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:56.360
defense attorneys.
783
00:49:56.000 --> 00:50:00.199
Very powerful, yes, have the criminal liars are a very
784
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:04.760
powerful political force, and in cases like the they make
785
00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:08.679
big money. In cases like the so called legal aid
786
00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:11.280
case Air India that I mentioned earlier, it is going
787
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:14.480
on that's already a year old. They're making three hundred
788
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:18.280
dollars an hour and there's a team of oh for
789
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:21.800
the total defense for two individuals. There's probably fifteen lawyers
790
00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:25.239
in the court and they're making two fifty or three
791
00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:30.440
hundred dollars an hour. So they have money clout which
792
00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:35.000
affects politics sure. And they are very articulate, and they
793
00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:38.440
quote the Charter of Rights, which is with its vague
794
00:50:38.519 --> 00:50:40.960
lang whiche has been taken in all kinds of directions,
795
00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:45.760
and they are a very powerful force against reform of
796
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:46.719
criminal justice.
797
00:50:48.519 --> 00:50:51.000
Now with the conditional sentence, which has been a thorn
798
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:53.960
in my side for years since I found out the
799
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:59.599
conditional sentence and then found out its application for murderers, pedophiles, rapists,
800
00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:03.239
for the most heinous of criminals sometimes are included in
801
00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:06.039
the conditional sentence, which I don't think, while I know,
802
00:51:06.280 --> 00:51:08.079
was not designed to protect those.
803
00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:08.519
Type of people.
804
00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:11.239
To apply to that kind of a case, how do.
805
00:51:11.199 --> 00:51:13.880
You believe that the defense attorneys, with their political cloud
806
00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:17.119
and their money, were the people responsible for the conditional
807
00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:21.280
sentence first becoming a fixture and additional system, but more
808
00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:26.719
importantly becoming a fixture in the court dealing with violent
809
00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:30.800
criminals where it wasn't intended to deal with violent I think.
810
00:51:30.679 --> 00:51:34.480
The Criminal Lawyers Association really cares too much about the
811
00:51:34.519 --> 00:51:38.719
sentencing process. They're in there for the to make the
812
00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:43.079
trial as sort of a trial by combat and make
813
00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:46.239
their money that way, and string it out if they
814
00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:48.760
can and use any possible defense, But when it comes
815
00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:51.239
to a sentence, if they lose the case, I don't
816
00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:55.119
think they've exercised it much influence on Parliament about that.
817
00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:59.559
Okay, I've just wanted to mention too. If people are
818
00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:02.559
interest and intrigued by what you've been having to say today,
819
00:52:02.679 --> 00:52:05.159
is there still the ability to get your book Outrage
820
00:52:05.159 --> 00:52:05.639
And where you.
821
00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:09.199
Go to a bookstore. There are two editions. There was
822
00:52:09.199 --> 00:52:13.159
the hardcover and the softcover, so it went well. But
823
00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:17.119
today if you wanted to go to your bookseller, he
824
00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:21.960
will know what that. The publisher is Raincoast, right, and
825
00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:25.639
they can order it from Raincoast and it's the Vancouver.
826
00:52:25.719 --> 00:52:27.360
It's a large publishing firm.
827
00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:31.079
Yes, it's www dot Raincoast dot com.
828
00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:33.800
Okay, it's interesting. There we go.
829
00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:35.840
Well, I want to thank you very much mister Alex
830
00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:37.960
McDonald for a very informative program.
831
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:41.079
Well, I like I'm always enjoyed talking to you. I've
832
00:52:41.079 --> 00:52:43.760
only had one other opportunity, but I enjoy it.
833
00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:46.719
Well, thank you very much, and good luck with everything,
834
00:52:46.760 --> 00:52:48.559
and good luck with your writing. If you're endeavoring to
835
00:52:48.559 --> 00:52:49.159
do something.
836
00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:50.599
Again, I just do articles now.
837
00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:54.800
There you go. Okay, okay, thank you very much mister McDonald.
838
00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:56.159
Thanks Dan, good night.
839
00:52:56.719 --> 00:52:58.559
You've been listening to the program Off the Cuff here
840
00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:01.920
on University of Manitoba Radio one one point five UMFM.
841
00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:05.119
Have yourself a good evening, Stay tuned for Free Range Radio.
842
00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:09.320
The opinions expressed in the preceding program where those of
843
00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:12.280
the participants and do not necessarily reflect those of the station.
844
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:26.119
On July second, around nine thirty am, Sidney Tierhus walked
845
00:53:26.119 --> 00:53:30.159
through the visitor's entrance into the Winnipeg Reman Center. There
846
00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:32.760
were two male guards at the front desk, and when
847
00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:34.920
Sydney got to the desk, one of the guards asked,
848
00:53:35.599 --> 00:53:39.840
can I help you? Sir, Sidney replied, I want to
849
00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:44.840
report I think a murder. The guard quickly replied, don't
850
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:47.760
say another word. He then picked up the phone and
851
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:50.960
called the Public Safety building and explained to an operator
852
00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:53.320
there is a person here at the Reman Center who
853
00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:55.800
wants to report a crime, and then he handed the
854
00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:59.239
phone to Sydney. He said to the operator, when I
855
00:53:59.320 --> 00:54:01.320
woke up this morning, I went to the washroom and
856
00:54:01.400 --> 00:54:04.800
there was a dead body in the bathtub. The operator
857
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:07.519
asked where he was living, and he said the Royal
858
00:54:07.639 --> 00:54:12.360
Albert Arms Hotel, Room three oh nine. The operator indicated
859
00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:17.119
that police officers were on their way. They asked Sidney
860
00:54:17.199 --> 00:54:19.840
to explain his story, and Sidney told them that he
861
00:54:19.880 --> 00:54:22.199
had met the victim. They had gone to his room
862
00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:25.960
for drinks and consensual sex, and eventually he had passed
863
00:54:25.960 --> 00:54:29.599
out intoxicated. When he awoke, he went to the washroom
864
00:54:29.960 --> 00:54:33.360
and in the bathtub was the dead body. No more
865
00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:36.039
details were given to the officers and the three of
866
00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:39.119
them proceeded to the Royal Albert Arms Hotel in Sydney's room.
867
00:54:40.039 --> 00:54:42.719
The two officers in Sydney went through the front entrance,
868
00:54:43.639 --> 00:54:46.719
passed the now quiet bar to the elevator and up
869
00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:50.239
to the third floor. The halls were quite narrow and
870
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:54.159
the floor is uneven. The room doors sloppily painted off white.
871
00:54:54.920 --> 00:54:57.480
The male officer asked Sydney for the key to the room,
872
00:54:57.920 --> 00:55:00.920
and Sidney handed it to him. The cleaning lady was
873
00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:05.320
down the hall cleaning another tenant suitet. The male officer
874
00:55:05.440 --> 00:55:08.039
opened the hotel room door and walked in, and a
875
00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:11.719
female officer stayed out in the hallway with Sydney inside.
876
00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:14.280
The room was well lit because of the sunlight streaming
877
00:55:14.320 --> 00:55:16.760
through the window. There was no need for the officer
878
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:19.239
to turn on the room light. He called out to
879
00:55:19.280 --> 00:55:22.480
the female officer and said, there's some blood on the mattress.
880
00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:26.280
He continued looking about the room and proceeded to the washroom.
881
00:55:27.400 --> 00:55:30.000
The light shone in from the washroom window, and when
882
00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:34.559
he pushed open the door, he froze. In the anti
883
00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:38.960
claw foot bathtub was a huge man with long, dark hair,
884
00:55:39.280 --> 00:55:41.559
his height about six foot four and weighing around two
885
00:55:41.679 --> 00:55:44.760
hundred and fifty pounds, who was lying naked on his
886
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:48.119
back in the bathtub. His body had been chopped into
887
00:55:48.199 --> 00:55:52.719
eight separate pieces. He had been decapitated, Both arms had
888
00:55:52.719 --> 00:55:55.599
been severed at the elbows, the legs at the knees.
889
00:55:56.280 --> 00:55:59.599
He had been sawn completely in half. The penis in
890
00:55:59.639 --> 00:56:02.360
the testicles were together cut cleanly from the body.
891
00:56:03.159 --> 00:56:04.599
He had been disemboweled.
892
00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:08.079
The chest and neck had forty seven stab wounds, The
893
00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:13.400
chest cavity had been sliced open, and the heart, lungs, liver, intestines,
894
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:18.599
all of the victim's internal organs were gone. The officer
895
00:56:18.679 --> 00:56:23.239
stood there for two or three minutes, transfixed, unable to
896
00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:27.239
move or say anything. He finally stumbled out of the
897
00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:30.639
washroom and into the hallway. He tried his best to
898
00:56:30.760 --> 00:56:34.199
compose himself and coolly told his partner cuff him, and
899
00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:37.239
she did. The male officer locked the door, and the
900
00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:39.880
three of them walked slowly down the stairs and outside
901
00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:43.119
to the police car. The female officer placed Sydney in
902
00:56:43.159 --> 00:56:44.679
the back seat, and then she asked her.
903
00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:47.639
Partner, are you okay? Shaking.
904
00:56:48.199 --> 00:56:51.079
He wiped the tears from his face and replied, no,
905
00:56:51.239 --> 00:56:53.800
I'm not not after seeing something like that.
906
00:56:56.039 --> 00:56:58.159
They sat in the police car and the coroner's van
907
00:56:58.280 --> 00:56:58.719
pulled up.
908
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:02.960
The Crown Victoria showed up shortly after the coroner arrived,
909
00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:05.880
and all the detectives the corner, and the two police
910
00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:08.920
officers entered the hotel and went to room three h nine.
911
00:57:09.920 --> 00:57:13.320
The crowd had started to gather outside the hotel. Soon after,
912
00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:16.639
a channel news showed up. Not long after, the other
913
00:57:16.719 --> 00:57:20.559
television news organizations began to arrive, and along with them
914
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:24.440
came the many curious onlookers. Someone was heard asking if
915
00:57:24.480 --> 00:57:26.519
the scene was being filmed as part of a movie.
916
00:57:27.880 --> 00:57:31.639
Sidney Tyrheus sat handcuffed in the backseat of the police car,
917
00:57:32.199 --> 00:57:35.960
taking in the whole scene. The two officers appeared from
918
00:57:35.960 --> 00:57:39.119
the hotel and returned to the cruiser. The three of
919
00:57:39.199 --> 00:57:42.639
them then proceeded in silence to the Public Safety Building.
920
00:57:45.400 --> 00:57:47.440
I was in thunder Bay for July first. When I
921
00:57:47.559 --> 00:57:50.239
arrived back in Winnipeg on July fourth, I saw the
922
00:57:50.239 --> 00:57:54.239
Winnipeg Sun newspaper with the headline victim caught in pieces,
923
00:57:54.840 --> 00:57:55.880
stole in film.
924
00:57:55.760 --> 00:57:57.440
Jewelry and bizarre tale of murder.
925
00:57:58.400 --> 00:58:01.119
The following days saw the murdered member story make the
926
00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:05.119
front pages, and then on July twelfth, Sidney Tyerhus made
927
00:58:05.119 --> 00:58:07.760
again the front page with his smiling face in the
928
00:58:07.800 --> 00:58:11.800
headline I Am not a monster. An inside on page
929
00:58:11.880 --> 00:58:16.599
three with the headline Royal Albert Hell accused killer has
930
00:58:16.719 --> 00:58:21.239
no recall of grisly events. I read the story about
931
00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:24.000
the gruesome killing and the statements made by Tierhu saying
932
00:58:24.039 --> 00:58:25.960
that he had passed out and had no memory of
933
00:58:26.039 --> 00:58:29.000
the killing. I cut the articles from the newspapers and
934
00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:31.039
put them with the other related clippings that I had
935
00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:34.800
been saving. This case was a particular interest to me.
936
00:58:35.480 --> 00:58:37.880
I had been producing and hosting a talk radio program
937
00:58:38.039 --> 00:58:40.519
called Off the Cuff on the University of Manitoba radio
938
00:58:40.639 --> 00:58:44.480
station CJUM for almost three and a half years, and
939
00:58:44.599 --> 00:58:47.199
it had worked as chairman of media and policy affairs
940
00:58:47.280 --> 00:58:50.800
for a Winnipeg based law reform group called People for Justice.
941
00:58:51.840 --> 00:58:54.400
I was a vocal critic of the Canadian judicial system,
942
00:58:54.880 --> 00:58:57.119
and I felt this case was a perfect example of
943
00:58:57.159 --> 00:58:59.599
a trial that would deal with the very kinds of
944
00:58:59.679 --> 00:59:01.599
issue that I had been able to examine on my
945
00:59:01.719 --> 00:59:04.559
radio program and with my work with People for Justice.
946
00:59:05.960 --> 00:59:08.199
Based on the fact that Sidney claimed to not recall
947
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:12.199
anything whatsoever of the killing due to intoxication, I believed
948
00:59:12.239 --> 00:59:15.159
that the prosecution would not be able to successfully convict
949
00:59:15.199 --> 00:59:17.639
your use of murder. They would have to settle for
950
00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:22.559
a manslaughter conviction because both alcohol and drugs could probably
951
00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:24.280
be proven to be involved in the crime.
952
00:59:24.920 --> 00:59:26.159
Coupled with the fact.
953
00:59:25.960 --> 00:59:28.760
That there were no eyewitnesses to the killing, I felt
954
00:59:28.760 --> 00:59:31.320
that the story Sidney had put forth about the killing
955
00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:35.360
would be the only story ever told. Right from the
956
00:59:35.440 --> 00:59:38.679
first time I read about Sydney in this case, it
957
00:59:38.880 --> 00:59:42.880
seemed absolutely absurd that anyone would accept that a person
958
00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:46.639
could do such an incredible act and not be cognizant.
959
00:59:46.159 --> 00:59:46.840
Of their actions.
960
00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:01.840
It's a tragic story about the brutal killing of a
961
01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:04.960
thirty eight year old man. That's how a Crown attorney
962
01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:07.599
described the evidence of what a Winnipeg jury will hear
963
01:00:08.039 --> 01:00:11.079
for the next several weeks, and a warning the details
964
01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:13.800
are extremely graphic. At the trial today, the jury heard
965
01:00:13.960 --> 01:00:17.239
Robin Green from Shoal Lake was stabbed to death sixty
966
01:00:17.280 --> 01:00:20.079
eight times. It happened on July first, two thousand and three.
967
01:00:20.199 --> 01:00:23.199
He was decapitated and his body cut up into eight
968
01:00:23.320 --> 01:00:26.280
separate pieces and left in a bathtub in a suite
969
01:00:26.360 --> 01:00:29.400
in the Royal Albert Hotel. The Crown says the victim's
970
01:00:29.559 --> 01:00:33.280
organs were removed and never found. Sidney Teerhouse Moore is
971
01:00:33.440 --> 01:00:36.519
charged with second degree murder. His lawyer, Greg Brotsky told
972
01:00:36.559 --> 01:00:40.199
the jury they agree Teerhouse Moore is the killer, but
973
01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:43.159
says his client doesn't know how the killing took place.
974
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:46.960
The jury was told the Tirehouse wrote letters to a
975
01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:51.119
Canadian journalist and American publisher depict in the killing itself.
976
01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:55.199
Cheerhouse also explains how he's infatuated with Jeffrey Dahmer, the
977
01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:58.400
American serial killer who cut up his victims. Or heard
978
01:00:58.480 --> 01:01:01.239
the previous day Green that Tearhouse over drinks at the
979
01:01:01.280 --> 01:01:04.159
Woodbine Hotel, then went back to Tearhouse a suite to
980
01:01:04.239 --> 01:01:07.519
have sex where Green was killed. Court was told that
981
01:01:07.639 --> 01:01:10.840
Tearhouse walked into the Remat Center the following day thinking
982
01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:13.679
it was a police station. He told the corrections worker
983
01:01:13.920 --> 01:01:16.320
that he had been drinking, that he blacked out, and
984
01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:18.800
that when he awoke, the body was chopped up in
985
01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:22.280
his tub. Back at his hotel room. Months after the
986
01:01:22.360 --> 01:01:24.599
killing at the Royal Albert Hotel, and appears a man
987
01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:27.079
charged with the murder wanted to talk about it, but
988
01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:30.000
was any of it true. That's what a Winnipeg jury
989
01:01:30.079 --> 01:01:33.119
must decide at the Sydney Tearhouse murder trial. While in
990
01:01:33.239 --> 01:01:36.760
jail Tearhouse began corresponding with the Winnipeg journalist, who at
991
01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:38.920
the time had a weekly calling show in a university
992
01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:42.159
radio station. His pats could testify that Tearhouse gave him
993
01:01:42.199 --> 01:01:44.599
details about the murder he couldn't have found out any
994
01:01:44.639 --> 01:01:47.360
other way. The jury has heard so far that police
995
01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:49.760
were not able to find the internal organs of the victim.
996
01:01:51.039 --> 01:01:52.960
The end result was supposed to be a book about
997
01:01:52.960 --> 01:01:56.159
the murder, an upcoming trial called Trophy Kill, a title
998
01:01:56.280 --> 01:01:57.960
court was told that Tearhouse came up with.
999
01:01:59.280 --> 01:02:02.360
He remembers all almost everything, but not the actual killing.
1000
01:02:02.679 --> 01:02:05.440
Sidney Tearhouse told the jury he blocked out that day
1001
01:02:05.480 --> 01:02:08.039
in July two thousand and three. He says he doesn't
1002
01:02:08.119 --> 01:02:11.119
know how Robin Green ended up mutilated in a hotel
1003
01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:14.280
sweet bathtub, but what he does remember is meeting up
1004
01:02:14.320 --> 01:02:17.280
with a victim at the Woodbine Hotel. Tearhouse describes how
1005
01:02:17.320 --> 01:02:19.679
the two went on a drinking bender, ending up in
1006
01:02:19.719 --> 01:02:22.360
his suite at the Royal Albert. He says he got
1007
01:02:22.440 --> 01:02:25.159
high on cocaine and oxy cotton, had sex with Green
1008
01:02:25.199 --> 01:02:28.599
a few times, and took some nude pictures of the victim. Eventually,
1009
01:02:28.679 --> 01:02:31.199
the two fell asleep. Tyros told the jury he woke
1010
01:02:31.320 --> 01:02:34.199
up about seven hours later to a sickening smell in
1011
01:02:34.280 --> 01:02:37.320
the suite, saying, quote, I entered the bathroom and looked
1012
01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:40.639
over to the bathtub and he was deceased. He was dismembered.
1013
01:02:40.920 --> 01:02:43.440
I threw up into the toilet because of what I'd seen.
1014
01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:46.239
Tyros then walked to the Reman Center. Thinking it was
1015
01:02:46.280 --> 01:02:49.559
a police station. Staff called nine one one. Tiros admitted
1016
01:02:49.599 --> 01:02:51.920
to telling the nine one one operator, I think I
1017
01:02:52.079 --> 01:02:55.039
killed someone. While in jail, he wrote letters about the
1018
01:02:55.119 --> 01:02:58.000
killing to a Winnipeg writer who promised him a book deal.
1019
01:02:58.320 --> 01:03:00.960
Tyros now says the gory letter were all made up.
1020
01:03:01.320 --> 01:03:03.400
I had no one to talk to. I was locked
1021
01:03:03.440 --> 01:03:05.599
up twenty four hours a day. I guess, in a
1022
01:03:05.719 --> 01:03:09.440
sick way was entertainment for me. Tearhouse testified he got
1023
01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:13.519
the killing details from jail library books true crime stories
1024
01:03:13.559 --> 01:03:16.880
of serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer, but the Crown argued
1025
01:03:17.000 --> 01:03:20.920
many details things like blood splatter, matched the actual crime scene,
1026
01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:24.800
and her details only the real killer would know. Stacy
1027
01:03:24.840 --> 01:03:27.079
Ashley CTV News, Winnipeg.
1028
01:03:28.239 --> 01:03:30.559
The fate of Sidney Tearhouse now rests with a jury.
1029
01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:33.079
They will decide that the man is guilty of manslaughter
1030
01:03:33.159 --> 01:03:35.960
and the death of Robin Green, or second degree murder.
1031
01:03:37.400 --> 01:03:37.719
Evil.
1032
01:03:38.039 --> 01:03:41.559
That's how the Crown described Sidney Tearhouse, telling the jury
1033
01:03:41.679 --> 01:03:45.079
he stabbed and dismembered Robin Green, then neatly stacked the
1034
01:03:45.159 --> 01:03:47.960
victim's body parts in the bathtub of his hotel room.
1035
01:03:48.519 --> 01:03:48.760
Early.
1036
01:03:48.920 --> 01:03:51.719
This man is decapitated, he was disemboweled, he was eviscerated,
1037
01:03:52.159 --> 01:03:54.360
and certainly the court will take that into account.
1038
01:03:54.639 --> 01:03:57.679
But Tearhouse's lawyer says it was not a premeditated murder.
1039
01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:00.599
You can't say this is the worst possible offense. The
1040
01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:04.320
rest possible offense would be if he lured somebody, premeditated
1041
01:04:04.360 --> 01:04:07.119
the crime and was guilty of first degree murdered, then
1042
01:04:07.159 --> 01:04:10.480
it's automatically twenty five years