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All right.
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Welcome to another episode of the Transformative Principal Podcast.
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Joining me all the way from Cambodia, Kate O'Connell.
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Kate, how's it going?
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It's going well, thank you, Mike.
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How are you?
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Good.
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It's still in my first cup of coffee.
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Um, so Kate is joining me from Cambodia.
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What time is it there right now?
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Great question.
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8:10 PM Almost bedtime, and I'm just waking up.
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Um, always, always fun to try to figure out all the time zone stuff.
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Okay, let's talk about what we've been working on.
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Maybe s- um, in a bit we'll talk about the Leadership Studios, but it might be helpful to start with a little bit of your background.
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So what do you do?
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Well- What, what's, what… And give it, yeah, give a little bit of your background and where you've come from, and what you're doing now.
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Sure.
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Well, the end of the story is that I am now an international education consultant, a leadership coach, and workshop facilitator.
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But where I started was teaching, uh, first grade, third grade in Michigan.
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Moved, taught seventh grade science in the inner city of Chicago, and just decided I wanted to go overseas.
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And I taught first grade in China for three years, and heard about this school in Africa where people just kept saying, like, when they said Dar Es Salaam, Tanzania, they got stars in their eyes.
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So, um, and then I got a chance to move there, and I taught kindergarten for two years in Dar Es Salaam, Tanzania.
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And these international experiences of teaching led me to understand that my teaching practice could really grow through working with a few British teachers, a few people that were aw- from South Africa.
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Some had been trained in New Zealand, Australia.
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So what I loved about that experience was that my teaching, like, I felt like that's where I learned to teach.
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Yeah.
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That's where I became a good teacher.
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Yeah.
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I mean, yeah.
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I had a good education through Michigan State University.
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I had, um, a Bachelor of Arts in Elementary Education and a Master's in Curriculum and Instruction.
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And then life happens, and I had to move back to Chicago, and I taught in a inner city of, not inner city, um, affluent suburb of Chicago.
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Taught first grade for five years, and then moved to Thailand.
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Got to, uh, teach all kinds of grades at, um, Prem Tinsulanonda International School in Chiang Mai, Thailand.
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And then moved here to Phnom Penh, Cambodia, where I've been, um, in a few different roles.
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But most recently I've done two headships, and that's where, um, the- In all my schools, I took on leadership roles.
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Like, "We need a, a curriculum coordinator for science." I'm like, "I'll do it." You know, "We need a team leader." "I'll do it." "We need a head of PD." "I'll do it." You know, just I try, I tried to get every single leadership role I could.
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And, um, ended up, uh, getting a certificate of school management and leadership through Harvard, and, uh, that's Harvard Business School.
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Really proud of that.
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Um, that was not easy.
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That was a lot of work.
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I know that.
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That's cool.
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And yeah, so now I coach, uh, having had two headships and four years of, um, headship experience, I coach international school leaders.
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I facilitate IB workshops, trust-based observation workshops, and Compass education workshops.
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Did I say?
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Yeah, IB, trust-based, Compass.
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Yeah.
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And, um, now I've gotten to work with Link Leaders and help build, uh, engagement on the Link Leaders site, which I'm super passionate about because I believe every leader needs a coach, and every leader should be a coach.
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Well said.
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Well said.
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You have a huge breadth of experience, both breadth and also depth, from teaching elementary, middle school, um, leading.
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Uh, you've, you've done a little bit of everything.
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I'm sure that's been like, I don't know, just like, like taking all those experiences and then, and then where you are today, you have so much to offer other leaders, and
that's where, you know, that you're a coach now, I mean, to, for other people to be able to, um, kind of fast track their experience by, through you and, and be able to coach.
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Getting, getting coached by you would make su- such a difference for, for leaders.
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Tell me about, like, your approach to coaching.
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So when you're sitting down and, and talking to an individual leader, give me a feel of kind of your process and how you work with a, with a leader.
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Yeah.
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So I'm trained as an ICF, the International Coaching Federation, and in NLP, neuro-linguistic programming, and Neuroshine technology.
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So I can do different types of coaching, but what I love to do with leaders is allow them to bring the topic.
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That is the co-creation that ICF, uh, attributes to good coaching.
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And so leaders will… I usually work with leaders like 8, 10, or 12 times and throughout the course of the year, so I'm with them.
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Yeah.
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And so, you know, a beginning question is, you know, "What's pressing for you right now?" Yeah.
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"And what do you wanna get out of this 60 minutes?
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What do you wanna walk away with at the end?" You know, and a measurement, "Where are you now on a scale of one to 10 with…" You know, maybe it's confidence as a leader.
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Some leaders have imposter syndrome.
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They get to be a leader 'cause they're a good teacher, but they have no leadership ex- experience.
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They've never dealt with a school budget, they've never dealt with a strategic plan, and they feel like a fish out of water and out of their depth.
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And so just- Yeah … having somebody to slow down with, someone to be present with you, and to…
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Usually the, the leader is the expert of their own context.
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So as a coach, I don't s- tell them what to do, but I try, I have, I know the right things to ask to help them uncover their own truth within that setting and what solution is going to feel right for them.
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And that is really the key too, right, is the asking the right questions at the right time to get, get what's inside them out, right?
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Isn't… And that's kind of what- Yes … you're working through.
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Starting with, like, what they're, what's pressing for them and, and what their goals are, but then it's typically a series of, of, of questions to kind of pull that out.
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Yeah.
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Do, do you find- And- Go ahead … you might notice that your client, the or the leader in this case that's being coached, will say something repetitively like-
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"I'm just not feeling it," or, "I can't feel."
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And you'll notice they use that word feel, so you can dig into it, you know?
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W- so what are you feeling?
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What do you want to be feeling?
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What do you need to do to bridge that, that distance between how you're feeling now and where you wanna be feeling?
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Mm-hmm.
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And usually there's insights that happen, because when we're by ourselves, our thoughts loop.
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I'm not feeling like being a leader at this school is what I wanna do.
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Some people have that realization in, inside the coaching.
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I'm not in the right position.
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Yeah.
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What I thought would bring me happiness isn't.
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But then that just plays on a loop, and so the a- the questions can disrupt the loop so that y- they, the thinking can go deeper.
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So yeah, you could have these realizations on your own, but working with a coach helps speed up the process.
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Yeah.
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You know what I like about… I'm, you know, I have a, also have a coach myself, and sometimes I'll, I'll go into those coaching sessions with a bit of anxiety because you go into what feels like a meeting or, you know, in Connection, and you feel like you
need to know, like, what, what the agenda is going to be and what you, like, the c- you, you want the control, but, and you go, I go into these coachings meeting, or coaching sessions sometimes and I'm like, "I'm not sure this is gonna be, like, valuable.
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I, I'm not even sure what I wanna talk about." Like, I kinda get stuck on, in my own o- own head.
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But a good coach, and this has happened to me every time I go into a coaching session-
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A good coach just knows how to, one, help you identify what… I mean, and, and it's just like pulling out, like, what's top of mind for you.
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What's, what are you struggling with?
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Yeah.
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And if you can start there- Yeah … a good coach, you don't have to… I mean, it's al- almost like you don't have to worry about anything else, 'cause
a good coach will help guide you to at the end feeling like, "Oh, that felt good, and I have-" Yeah … "a little bit more clarity, and I have…"
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It, it, it just brings that out in you.
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And I've never gone to a coaching session where I walk out going, "That was a waste of time," or, "Why did I even do that?" But I'll often go into a coaching session going, "I, I just don't know, like, I don't know if I wanna spend my time doing this.
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Is this gonna be valuable?"
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And it always is.
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That is so, such a common comment that I get, um, at the beginning.
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Even with a client today, at the end, they, they smiled and said, "I really had this other topic that I wanted to discuss, and we discussed
this topic. But actually, this, where we've come to, my takeaway and my action that I'm committing to is gonna address the original question."
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And they were just blown away because they had that secret agenda and we talked about another agenda, but they still got it solved.
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Yes.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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That's how cool- Yeah.
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So Kate, you're helping, um, working with, with me and Linked Leaders and, and our colleague Chad, and, and one of the things that we're, you're helping to build right now is a mentorship kind of best practices or guide for, for mentors.
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Yes.
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And sometimes we… Let's, let's talk a little bit about, like, the, the, um, overlap that sometimes we use coach, mentor, coach mentor.
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They're not synonymous.
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They are different.
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Yes.
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But they're, they're, there, there's a, there's a relationship there.
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Rather than me trying to, like, pull those apart and, like, kind of talk about, like, where, where they are the same and where they're very different, what's your perspective on that?
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So I feel when I'm in a coach setting, it's really important for me to abide by the ICF code of ethics.
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So that's my bias and that's my perspective.
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So I won't be advising, mentoring, or teaching.
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And oftentimes people come to me because of my experience as a head of school, and they do want mentoring.
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So what I do is I will often say, "Let's make a 60-minute coaching call, and let's finish with 15 minutes of mentorship."
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And what happens- I love that … often is that through the coaching, the mentorship is no longer needed.
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However, I feel like the role of a mentor is someone to say- Okay, say, say a leader is going through a staff crisis, like a safeguarding staff crisis Mm-hmm … and I as a mentor have been through many of those.
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So then my questions wouldn't be ICF related questions.
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My questions would be, you know, "Have you considered working with a safeguarding specialist?" You know, when my experience happened, I hired a safeguarding
specialist on retainer for 10 hours so that I could call, and for all those situations in that year, I said, "Have I done absolutely everything I could do?"
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You know, so the, the mentoring might have storytelling and specific questions like ha- have you considered this?
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What I don't think is appropriate in mentorship is, "You should. You really ought to. If I were you, this is what I'd do." Because a mentor is not… My experience is not their experience.
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So I can share my experience as a mentor to spark the leader's ideas.
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Yeah.
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That's a, I think that's something that I've had to really learn over the last couple years, and still learning, always learning, but is, is- When you feel
that n- that kind of internal instinct to, like, offer advice, 'cause I think it's, it's, like, inherent as, as humans, you know, for whatever reason- Yes
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and, and, and so we wanna, like, offer advice or the, the you should or whatever else, I think that's a, at a level of ex- you know, a level further than just offering advice.
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But the experience share is really important.
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Like, and that's something that, that we, I mean, this program, this, uh, this accelerator program and, and we do our masterminds, and that's really what we spend the time in those masterminds is, like…
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And, and frame it as an experience share.
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So if you just shared kinda what you're working on or struggling with and, and I can have a relatable experience and it, it's about my experience and that maybe s- somehow unlocks something for you, um, then great.
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I just had that this week.
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We, in, in our, in our accelerator program, we have monthly masterminds for two hours.
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They're awesome.
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We have this great group of people from, from leaders all over the, uh, country doing different things, and, um, the, the cohort experience is, is phenomenal.
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We'll come back to that with Leadership Studios.
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But, um, so I had to do my deep dive this month.
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I was so anxious in going into it, you know, 'cause I was on the hot seat this month, and, and share, you know, just shared kind of what, what I, what I, you know, was putting out there as kind of where I was, um, wanting some, some support.
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And, and every one of them had an experience share in their own respective, like, journeys and experiences and things like that.
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And although our backgrounds and contexts are completely different, I could take away something from each one of those.
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But then also through all the collective experience shares, see a through line.
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Like, what is a common through line- Yeah … through all those things that I'm listening to that plays back to what I was really needing from that deep dive?
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It was awesome.
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I loved it.
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That is incredible.
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Well, Kate, you have done a phenomenal job leading also not just the coaching, but the, but this, this new cohort model at Link Leaders that we call Link Leadership Studios.
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We did a pilot in, in June.
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You and Chad, our other colleague, um, really designed this from the ground up, and it's all focused on engagement and really creating that community peer-to-peer, um, connection.
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Why don't you talk a little bit about conceptually what is a leadership studio through Link Leaders?
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What is it, and what did you… How did you design it?
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Like, just, like, kinda high level.
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Don't go into sup- a lot of super details on that, but, like, give people a feel of what is a leadership studio and what does it entail.
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Well, I think together, you, Chad, and I, it might have even been your idea, the word studio, um, connotates like art and like creating something.
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So that gave me, um, the belief that it could be more creative and less of a, a teaching experience.
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So while there was, there was teaching every single week, and there were, um… It was more like creating a space, that studio, creating the studio space where leaders got to come and have ideas sprinkled in more than teaching.
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Yeah.
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Like, there's this book, The Gap and The Gain.
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That was when, when I read the, um, survey at the end, The Gap and The Gain was one of the favorite lessons, that first lesson.
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A little bit of teaching and sparking ideas, like you could think of your year like this.
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What would that… So using coaching questions, what would it be like if you focused on what you gained over the course of that year rather than what we all do, focus on all the things we didn't achieve?
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You know?
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And we had a safe space to then explore the concept.
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So I tried to frame, uh, all the sessions w- that we were together, um, around books that had interesting reflections for leaders that then we could spark this internal debate.
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And I, to create this, I used a lot of people like Peter Block's work on building community, um, Brene Brown's work on vulnerability.
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So really looking at what does it look like to bring people together, create psychological safety in a safe space, and really have most of the session be sharing of stories and reflecting.
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Yeah.
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Well, and it, the way you and Chad approached this and designed it and, and more importantly, facilitate it resonated.
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I'm gonna read a couple quotes here.
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So this is by, um, I wanna say Lazin.
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Is that the right pronunciation?
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The first- Lashin.
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Lashin?
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Thank you.
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I knew, I, yeah, I knew it was wrong when I said it.
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Um, she said, "The circle, sitting with the same people across all six sessions and being honest, really honest, not professionally polished about what, what's actually hard, you don't get that in a staff meeting."
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That is it right there.
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Yeah.
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Like, to be able to sit with peers, the space is created to be vulnerable, be real, talk about the things that are really hard, and, um, those are rare moments when you get to have those opportunities, right?
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Especially when you're in a leadership position, like you're kind of a shell, right?
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You gotta be the, you know, be the leader and, and all these things that are on your shoulders that you're, that are weighing you down, like you just
gotta carry them, and you get, you, very rarely you get the opportunity to really connect and talk with peers that are sharing the similar weight.
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I love it.
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Yeah.
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And one of the most powerful things was we were all in different countries, and all working from different countries, you know, minus a few of the same countries.
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But that, to be able to express an issue that you've had and hear that that was the same issue that somebody else has experienced across the world- There's something that just lets, lets you breathe and go, "I'm not alone."
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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Well, there's so much to build on there.
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I mean, the three-week pilot that we did in June, um, was very, um, uh, well-received.
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Um, I think five out of five, and everybody that took the survey afterwards and just gushed, um, about you and your facilitation.
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And we're excited to be offering new s- I mean, fresh new studios starting October 5th, and we'll- those are advertised on our website, so there'll be a lot of opportunity for other people to, to participate in those.
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And, um, take what we learned and c- always improve, but I think stretching them out a little bit longer and, you know, especially during the school year.
00:22:01.006 --> 00:22:07.786
But we're, we're really hoping to bring, you know, a lot of leaders from all over the place together for these different studios.
00:22:07.796 --> 00:22:10.166
And we have two main studios that we're offering.
00:22:10.566 --> 00:22:14.816
Um, the one that you facilitated, Building Your Inner Leader.
00:22:15.076 --> 00:22:19.066
So who would that c- who do you think about when you, when you think about that audience?
00:22:19.066 --> 00:22:20.106
And then we'll talk about the other one.
00:22:21.836 --> 00:22:24.576
So I thought it was really helpful.
00:22:24.576 --> 00:22:32.886
We had coordinators that were- had quite heavy loads of managing down and managing up, right?
00:22:32.956 --> 00:22:35.086
And, and, and leading in the middle.
00:22:35.826 --> 00:22:36.156
Yeah.
00:22:36.166 --> 00:22:40.046
So, um, that's a really hard spot to be in.
00:22:40.546 --> 00:22:53.636
Um, uh, when I wrote it, I was really thinking of, uh, like heads of school and people with a lot, a lot of responsibility, but it was also really beneficial for middle leaders.
00:22:54.826 --> 00:22:55.166
Yeah.
00:22:56.608 --> 00:22:58.648
Yeah, it seems like it's so transferable.
00:22:58.648 --> 00:23:12.028
I mean, building your inner leader and what you, what the, the curriculum you designed, and then the space that you created for, for a connection, it seems like who, who doesn't it, it apply to, I mean, is maybe a better question.
00:23:12.218 --> 00:23:19.458
If, if you're in a leadership position, I think regardless of where you are in your journey, I think you can get something out of it, um, without a doubt.
00:23:19.878 --> 00:23:25.958
If nothing else, um, with the learning from other, your peers and, and the other people in the room.
00:23:26.308 --> 00:23:30.898
And the, the other, other one we offered was, um, building stronger teams, and Chad led that one.
00:23:31.448 --> 00:23:36.248
And, uh, obviously, you know, in a leadership position you typically are, you have a team.
00:23:36.248 --> 00:23:38.708
You're not leading yourself and, or by yourself.
00:23:38.778 --> 00:23:51.858
You might be by yourself, but you have a team, and this was really about, um, kind of elevating others around you and, and building, um, building a strong, competent and cohesive team.
00:23:52.298 --> 00:23:53.848
Um, anything you'd want to share on that?
00:23:54.898 --> 00:23:55.388
Yeah.
00:23:55.428 --> 00:24:23.788
I, I, um, talked to Chad as we were creating these and, um, w- I run the IB's workshop called Leading and Managing Teams, and a lot of the… separately, not
knowing that I do that, Chad u- used some of the same material and led it in sort of the same way, u- using Patrick Lencioni's, um, Five Dysfunctions of a Team.
00:24:24.188 --> 00:24:24.548
Yeah, which is a great book.
00:24:24.548 --> 00:24:27.778
And, uh, it's a great book.
00:24:27.848 --> 00:24:49.408
And then knowing that he held space for leaders to have conversations, and his group was different from my group, and there were people at different
stages that were able to share stories from different parts of their path on their career, and I know it was really powerful for the people in the room.
00:24:50.408 --> 00:25:07.248
Yeah, what was cool about that one too, um, similar to I think both of these different, um, studios that we were, we're offering
kind of, um, are so transferable, but in that particular studio he had, you know, at least one principal that basically has retired.
00:25:07.268 --> 00:25:16.638
He's, he's kind of on his second career, 40-plus years in education, and I love that he still showed up and was wanting to learn.
00:25:16.988 --> 00:25:24.048
And then you had on the other end in, in the same studio a, a principal that was, I think she was in her first, uh, probably second or third year.
00:25:24.248 --> 00:25:26.418
Early, early career- Yeah … principal, right?
00:25:26.768 --> 00:25:33.718
And they both- Exactly … I think gained something from each other and also just the experience, uh, together.
00:25:33.738 --> 00:25:35.638
So it wasn't like, you know, I'm…
00:25:36.628 --> 00:25:47.478
Anyway, I, I think that's really cool that you can create a space like that and regardless of kind of where you are in your journey, you can still get so much value from it, and that's just really good design on you and Chad's part.
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:51.880
And I think it's a access point.
00:25:52.930 --> 00:26:03.840
Coaching and mentorship is not yet, it hasn't yet pl- proliferated through education like I believe it should.
00:26:04.760 --> 00:26:25.270
And so being a part of a studio is like a safe space to see what mentorship and coaching kinda look like in a group setting- Yeah … where, uh, um, a little bit of reflection can happen, connecting can happen, but also menti- mentoring and coaching.
00:26:25.900 --> 00:26:26.860
Yep, absolutely.
00:26:27.620 --> 00:26:37.310
Well, and this is, you know, and this is not an infomercial, but, I mean, that's at the core of what Link Leaders is about, is starting with the coaching and the mentoring.
00:26:37.520 --> 00:26:59.320
Like, if you are- Yeah … if you don't have access right now to a high quality mentor or coach, or even if you do, having a s- a second person to get support and perspective in the
leadership positions that, that we're in, whether you're a principal, assistant principal, superintendent, head of school, whatever, I don't think you can g- ever get too much support.
00:26:59.410 --> 00:27:18.910
And so what, what I love about what we're trying to do is there is no excuse for someone not to have that kind of support, 'cause we have 30 plus
mentors that are available right now for anybody, and, uh, people like you that are waiting and, and ready to support any leader, and, and Chad as well.
00:27:19.870 --> 00:27:27.360
And then we have this peer-focused, um, aspect with the Leadership Studios and some of the other things that we do on our platform.
00:27:27.800 --> 00:27:43.130
And y- between those two, I don't know if there's better professional development, in my opinion, than one-to-one support through with a coach or a mentor, and getting together with peers to talk about real stuff.
00:27:43.350 --> 00:27:46.770
Like, I don't know if there's better, like, combo than those two things.
00:27:46.800 --> 00:28:00.720
You can go to a workshop, you can go to a conference, you can pull, pull away some nuggets, but in terms of return on investment of time, which we don't have a luxury of time, you're gonna get the mes- most, the most bang for your buck in both of those areas.
00:28:01.070 --> 00:28:02.030
Agree or disagree, Kate?
00:28:03.140 --> 00:28:07.120
I would 100% agree, and I'll give you my reasons why.
00:28:07.790 --> 00:28:11.420
One of the reasons is it's problem-based practice.
00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:21.450
And when I did my, uh, certificate of school management and leadership, every course was about a problem of practice.
00:28:21.820 --> 00:28:31.890
So any time you wanna have effective PD, you want to be dealing with something that is current and context based.
00:28:32.700 --> 00:28:33.030
Relevant.
00:28:33.030 --> 00:28:33.330
Right?
00:28:33.330 --> 00:28:35.040
You g- Yeah … relevant.
00:28:36.808 --> 00:28:45.698
And, um, then the second reason that I think that it is the best is it's, uh, differentiated.
00:28:46.708 --> 00:28:47.198
Yes.
00:28:48.038 --> 00:28:48.398
Yeah.
00:28:48.418 --> 00:28:50.268
So do I wanna build my inner leader?
00:28:50.268 --> 00:28:52.438
Do I wanna build stronger teams?
00:28:52.698 --> 00:29:02.058
And then inside the person leading it, the next time Chad leads building your building stronger teams, he'll have different people.
00:29:02.088 --> 00:29:03.878
It'll run differently.
00:29:04.088 --> 00:29:06.708
Same with me when I run building your inner leader.
00:29:06.888 --> 00:29:18.068
We, as educator coaches, we can differentiate over the space of time for people to, um, have a differentiated experience.
00:29:18.578 --> 00:29:18.898
Yeah.
00:29:19.278 --> 00:29:19.938
Absolutely.
00:29:20.228 --> 00:29:48.270
You know, when I talk to district leaders that are looking for solutions for their, for their district, I think that is, that is really what, um- I, I don't know, I think would be a challenge as a district
leader if you, you know, whether you have 10, 10 school leaders in your district or, or, you know, 200, how do you as a, as a district leader get, give individualized support for each one of those principals?
00:29:48.270 --> 00:29:52.040
Because the reality is- Yeah … they all need something different.
00:29:52.080 --> 00:29:59.440
And even if they're on their 30th year or their third year or first year, they're gonna need, they, they all need support.
00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:01.040
There's no question they all need support.
00:30:01.050 --> 00:30:01.080
Yes.
00:30:01.090 --> 00:30:05.690
Whether they're asking for it or getting, getting support is another question, but they all need support.
00:30:06.210 --> 00:30:09.050
Um, it, it, but it's different for, for all of those.
00:30:09.060 --> 00:30:11.060
So how do you do that as a, as a district?
00:30:11.090 --> 00:30:25.420
And, um, one of the districts we're working with, um, closely, that's why they partner with us because if they have, you know, they have five elementary school leaders, we have people that they can, they can connect with.
00:30:25.470 --> 00:30:27.280
They have high school leaders we can connect.
00:30:27.280 --> 00:30:31.870
And if district office personnel, whether a curriculum or whatever else, we have people.
00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:33.110
And it's not all the same people.
00:30:33.270 --> 00:30:35.010
I mean, they're all, they're all, they're all different.
00:30:35.490 --> 00:30:39.710
Um, so I think that's really key is the differentiation part.
00:30:39.770 --> 00:30:47.830
Whether you're doing the coaching or the mentoring or with peers, it's gonna be context based on what you need specifically, so.
00:30:47.850 --> 00:30:52.610
And the ability to choose to look at the Link Leaders website, that's what I love.
00:30:52.610 --> 00:31:05.220
And look at all the different people and their different experiences and, and choose a coach or a mentor who shares your experience or who is in- Yeah.
00:31:06.230 --> 00:31:13.140
One of the things I've noticed is that there are many people that are in a current position and wanna be in the next position.
00:31:13.760 --> 00:31:24.630
So a lot of people come to me and say, you know, "Kate, I'm a senior school principal. I wanna, I wanna do what you did and go into headship. Tell me what do I need to do to get there?" Yeah.
00:31:24.630 --> 00:31:30.710
And so Link Leaders has people that in the US, you've got a few people internationally.
00:31:31.980 --> 00:31:43.570
Districts or leaders can look and see who is that person that has that role that I am really trying to go after and figure out what would be best for me to do to get that role.
00:31:44.090 --> 00:31:44.480
Yeah.
00:31:45.250 --> 00:31:48.270
And I, and, and the flip side of that is someone that's in a rut.
00:31:48.390 --> 00:31:57.840
So you're talking about somebody that's, like, motivated to go forward and, like, they, they see a vision for themselves, and maybe there's not opportunity within their district to feed them and to help them elevate.
00:31:58.912 --> 00:32:01.582
But then there's the others that are like, "I'm just stuck.
00:32:01.592 --> 00:32:04.692
I don't even know if I wanna be in this leadership position." Yes.
00:32:04.692 --> 00:32:13.042
Or I'm just like… And there is, I mean, coaching can also unlock some things with, with that individual as well, right?
00:32:13.042 --> 00:32:25.312
In coaching and mentorship, and kinda bring back the fire and, and help, help that individual kind of re-find their, their why and why, what they're doing and why they're doing what they're doing, right?
00:32:25.312 --> 00:32:35.012
So I think whether you're on either one of those ends of the spectrum- Yes … coaching and, and mentoring can, can really be the unlock that you're looking for.
00:32:36.202 --> 00:32:44.842
That was my first ever desire, and on my website, was to help teachers not leave the profession.
00:32:45.972 --> 00:32:56.982
My first desire was at, when I first became a coach, was to help teachers deal with the stresses of the classroom, and to coach them to help them stay in the profession.
00:32:57.002 --> 00:32:57.312
Yeah.
00:32:57.422 --> 00:32:57.742
Yeah.
00:32:58.052 --> 00:32:58.372
Yeah.
00:32:58.652 --> 00:33:01.382
We have way too many great people leaving, right?
00:33:01.382 --> 00:33:08.852
And we always talk about it within our, within our own circle of Flink leaders, is we're all about keeping great leaders leading longer.
00:33:08.892 --> 00:33:16.952
We want, we need to keep them in the profession, and we have a ri- a lot of good leaders that we wanna, um, help become great, right?
00:33:16.952 --> 00:33:31.822
And, and then- Yes … there's this other layer that we haven't talked about much about, but we also have this, this whole aspiring leader, people that are maybe not in the seat yet, that, um, we want to begin leading, and we w- they wanna begin leading.
00:33:31.972 --> 00:33:36.642
Um, and we wanna support that aspiring leader as well.
00:33:36.652 --> 00:33:38.252
So a lot of opportunity there.
00:33:38.522 --> 00:33:43.972
So anyway, this wasn't meant to be an infomercial, but it all relates and connects and, and things like that.
00:33:43.982 --> 00:33:46.872
So, and we're, uh, looks like we're about 40 minutes in.
00:33:46.872 --> 00:33:48.632
I u- usually try to keep these about 30 minutes.
00:33:48.632 --> 00:33:49.862
I forgot we're even doing a podcast.
00:33:49.902 --> 00:33:51.462
We just start- started having a conversation.
00:33:51.472 --> 00:33:59.112
So, um, well, Kate, what, what question maybe I haven't, haven't I asked that I should have asked, that you would love for me to ask?
00:34:00.222 --> 00:34:04.272
That i- that in its, in and of itself is a great question
00:34:10.098 --> 00:34:13.058
Maybe, uh, like what is my personal mission?
00:34:14.108 --> 00:34:16.218
Hey, Kate, what's your personal mission?
00:34:17.318 --> 00:34:18.738
My personal mission.
00:34:18.808 --> 00:34:25.798
I'm on a mission to humanize education, and I'm starting with humanizing leadership
00:34:28.010 --> 00:34:32.070
I feel like that's like the mic drop moment of the, of the conversation.
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:34.060
Need we say more?
00:34:35.600 --> 00:34:35.920
Yeah.
00:34:36.350 --> 00:34:38.980
And that's, that's why I love working with LINC Leaders.
00:34:39.240 --> 00:34:51.240
The other day I literally sat down and thought, "You know, what would I make if I could make anything out of scratch?" And I was like, I would make a, I would make a website where there'd be coaches for leaders.
00:34:51.330 --> 00:34:54.180
I was like, wait, that's, that's LINC Leaders.
00:34:55.050 --> 00:34:58.310
I'm like, we're, we're, we're actually already doing that.
00:34:59.160 --> 00:35:05.080
But it was f- I, and I was just gonna say after you said your mission is like, Kate, you are, you're in your sweet spot right now.
00:35:05.090 --> 00:35:11.670
You are, you are doing, doing the mission, and, uh, you're- Yeah … in a position to impact a lot of people, which is really cool.
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:13.610
So awesome, awesome.
00:35:14.050 --> 00:35:21.310
Well, Kate, thanks for the conversation and for all you do in education and leadership, and I really enjoy- Mm
00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:24.290
working with you and learning from you every day, so I appreciate you.
00:35:24.590 --> 00:35:31.610
And for those that are listening to this podcast, thanks for listening, and, uh, come back to the next episode as well and share it with your friends.
00:35:32.150 --> 00:35:34.180
Kate, any last words of wisdom for our listeners?
00:35:35.970 --> 00:35:36.750
Get a coach.
00:35:38.340 --> 00:35:38.790
There you go.
00:35:40.940 --> 00:35:41.340
All right.
00:35:41.560 --> 00:35:42.180
Thanks, Kate.
00:35:42.710 --> 00:35:43.670
Thank you.
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
00:00:12.456 --> 00:00:12.846
All right.
00:00:12.846 --> 00:00:16.346
Welcome to another episode of the Transformative Principal Podcast.
00:00:16.356 --> 00:00:19.966
Joining me all the way from Cambodia, Kate O'Connell.
00:00:19.976 --> 00:00:21.056
Kate, how's it going?
00:00:21.896 --> 00:00:23.626
It's going well, thank you, Mike.
00:00:23.626 --> 00:00:24.376
How are you?
00:00:25.096 --> 00:00:25.606
Good.
00:00:25.966 --> 00:00:27.636
It's still in my first cup of coffee.
00:00:27.676 --> 00:00:30.586
Um, so Kate is joining me from Cambodia.
00:00:30.626 --> 00:00:32.056
What time is it there right now?
00:00:33.566 --> 00:00:34.406
Great question.
00:00:34.446 --> 00:00:38.516
8:10 PM Almost bedtime, and I'm just waking up.
00:00:38.526 --> 00:00:42.726
Um, always, always fun to try to figure out all the time zone stuff.
00:00:43.536 --> 00:00:47.116
Okay, let's talk about what we've been working on.
00:00:47.116 --> 00:00:53.106
Maybe s- um, in a bit we'll talk about the Leadership Studios, but it might be helpful to start with a little bit of your background.
00:00:53.106 --> 00:00:55.236
So what do you do?
00:00:55.266 --> 00:01:00.756
Well- What, what's, what… And give it, yeah, give a little bit of your background and where you've come from, and what you're doing now.
00:01:01.936 --> 00:01:02.526
Sure.
00:01:02.536 --> 00:01:13.166
Well, the end of the story is that I am now an international education consultant, a leadership coach, and workshop facilitator.
00:01:13.596 --> 00:01:19.476
But where I started was teaching, uh, first grade, third grade in Michigan.
00:01:19.856 --> 00:01:27.816
Moved, taught seventh grade science in the inner city of Chicago, and just decided I wanted to go overseas.
00:01:28.296 --> 00:01:42.406
And I taught first grade in China for three years, and heard about this school in Africa where people just kept saying, like, when they said Dar Es Salaam, Tanzania, they got stars in their eyes.
00:01:43.066 --> 00:01:51.596
So, um, and then I got a chance to move there, and I taught kindergarten for two years in Dar Es Salaam, Tanzania.
00:01:52.166 --> 00:02:08.526
And these international experiences of teaching led me to understand that my teaching practice could really grow through working with a few British teachers, a few people that were aw- from South Africa.
00:02:08.536 --> 00:02:11.946
Some had been trained in New Zealand, Australia.
00:02:12.196 --> 00:02:19.296
So what I loved about that experience was that my teaching, like, I felt like that's where I learned to teach.
00:02:20.386 --> 00:02:20.576
Yeah.
00:02:20.616 --> 00:02:22.166
That's where I became a good teacher.
00:02:22.176 --> 00:02:22.196
Yeah.
00:02:22.466 --> 00:02:24.226
I mean, yeah.
00:02:24.246 --> 00:02:27.326
I had a good education through Michigan State University.
00:02:27.656 --> 00:02:34.986
I had, um, a Bachelor of Arts in Elementary Education and a Master's in Curriculum and Instruction.
00:02:35.556 --> 00:02:47.066
And then life happens, and I had to move back to Chicago, and I taught in a inner city of, not inner city, um, affluent suburb of Chicago.
00:02:47.416 --> 00:02:50.736
Taught first grade for five years, and then moved to Thailand.
00:02:51.456 --> 00:02:59.966
Got to, uh, teach all kinds of grades at, um, Prem Tinsulanonda International School in Chiang Mai, Thailand.
00:02:59.996 --> 00:03:07.196
And then moved here to Phnom Penh, Cambodia, where I've been, um, in a few different roles.
00:03:07.226 --> 00:03:16.332
But most recently I've done two headships, and that's where, um, the- In all my schools, I took on leadership roles.
00:03:16.342 --> 00:03:32.412
Like, "We need a, a curriculum coordinator for science." I'm like, "I'll do it." You know, "We need a team leader." "I'll do it." "We need a head of PD." "I'll do it." You know, just I try, I tried to get every single leadership role I could.
00:03:33.582 --> 00:03:44.312
And, um, ended up, uh, getting a certificate of school management and leadership through Harvard, and, uh, that's Harvard Business School.
00:03:44.332 --> 00:03:45.562
Really proud of that.
00:03:45.862 --> 00:03:47.302
Um, that was not easy.
00:03:47.322 --> 00:03:48.102
That was a lot of work.
00:03:48.102 --> 00:03:48.462
I know that.
00:03:48.462 --> 00:03:48.702
That's cool.
00:03:48.702 --> 00:04:00.912
And yeah, so now I coach, uh, having had two headships and four years of, um, headship experience, I coach international school leaders.
00:04:01.592 --> 00:04:07.422
I facilitate IB workshops, trust-based observation workshops, and Compass education workshops.
00:04:08.062 --> 00:04:08.452
Did I say?
00:04:08.512 --> 00:04:10.442
Yeah, IB, trust-based, Compass.
00:04:11.462 --> 00:04:11.532
Yeah.
00:04:11.632 --> 00:04:29.552
And, um, now I've gotten to work with Link Leaders and help build, uh, engagement on the Link Leaders site, which I'm super passionate about because I believe every leader needs a coach, and every leader should be a coach.
00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:32.010
Well said.
00:04:32.030 --> 00:04:32.670
Well said.
00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:44.330
You have a huge breadth of experience, both breadth and also depth, from teaching elementary, middle school, um, leading.
00:04:44.540 --> 00:04:47.960
Uh, you've, you've done a little bit of everything.
00:04:47.960 --> 00:05:11.880
I'm sure that's been like, I don't know, just like, like taking all those experiences and then, and then where you are today, you have so much to offer other leaders, and
that's where, you know, that you're a coach now, I mean, to, for other people to be able to, um, kind of fast track their experience by, through you and, and be able to coach.
00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:16.090
Getting, getting coached by you would make su- such a difference for, for leaders.
00:05:16.500 --> 00:05:18.470
Tell me about, like, your approach to coaching.
00:05:18.490 --> 00:05:27.750
So when you're sitting down and, and talking to an individual leader, give me a feel of kind of your process and how you work with a, with a leader.
00:05:29.010 --> 00:05:29.560
Yeah.
00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:40.840
So I'm trained as an ICF, the International Coaching Federation, and in NLP, neuro-linguistic programming, and Neuroshine technology.
00:05:41.150 --> 00:05:50.120
So I can do different types of coaching, but what I love to do with leaders is allow them to bring the topic.
00:05:50.390 --> 00:05:56.980
That is the co-creation that ICF, uh, attributes to good coaching.
00:05:57.470 --> 00:06:08.770
And so leaders will… I usually work with leaders like 8, 10, or 12 times and throughout the course of the year, so I'm with them.
00:06:08.780 --> 00:06:08.800
Yeah.
00:06:09.100 --> 00:06:15.610
And so, you know, a beginning question is, you know, "What's pressing for you right now?" Yeah.
00:06:15.660 --> 00:06:18.910
"And what do you wanna get out of this 60 minutes?
00:06:18.930 --> 00:06:29.520
What do you wanna walk away with at the end?" You know, and a measurement, "Where are you now on a scale of one to 10 with…" You know, maybe it's confidence as a leader.
00:06:29.530 --> 00:06:32.010
Some leaders have imposter syndrome.
00:06:32.390 --> 00:06:37.600
They get to be a leader 'cause they're a good teacher, but they have no leadership ex- experience.
00:06:37.790 --> 00:06:44.480
They've never dealt with a school budget, they've never dealt with a strategic plan, and they feel like a fish out of water and out of their depth.
00:06:45.390 --> 00:06:54.380
And so just- Yeah … having somebody to slow down with, someone to be present with you, and to…
00:06:54.690 --> 00:07:00.880
Usually the, the leader is the expert of their own context.
00:07:01.570 --> 00:07:15.680
So as a coach, I don't s- tell them what to do, but I try, I have, I know the right things to ask to help them uncover their own truth within that setting and what solution is going to feel right for them.
00:07:16.958 --> 00:07:24.748
And that is really the key too, right, is the asking the right questions at the right time to get, get what's inside them out, right?
00:07:24.748 --> 00:07:26.548
Isn't… And that's kind of what- Yes … you're working through.
00:07:26.548 --> 00:07:37.128
Starting with, like, what they're, what's pressing for them and, and what their goals are, but then it's typically a series of, of, of questions to kind of pull that out.
00:07:38.408 --> 00:07:38.668
Yeah.
00:07:38.718 --> 00:07:51.618
Do, do you find- And- Go ahead … you might notice that your client, the or the leader in this case that's being coached, will say something repetitively like-
00:07:53.736 --> 00:07:57.706
"I'm just not feeling it," or, "I can't feel."
00:07:58.036 --> 00:08:01.966
And you'll notice they use that word feel, so you can dig into it, you know?
00:08:02.846 --> 00:08:04.676
W- so what are you feeling?
00:08:05.536 --> 00:08:07.616
What do you want to be feeling?
00:08:08.456 --> 00:08:16.326
What do you need to do to bridge that, that distance between how you're feeling now and where you wanna be feeling?
00:08:16.746 --> 00:08:17.066
Mm-hmm.
00:08:17.126 --> 00:08:25.126
And usually there's insights that happen, because when we're by ourselves, our thoughts loop.
00:08:26.586 --> 00:08:30.216
I'm not feeling like being a leader at this school is what I wanna do.
00:08:30.416 --> 00:08:33.636
Some people have that realization in, inside the coaching.
00:08:33.706 --> 00:08:35.146
I'm not in the right position.
00:08:35.686 --> 00:08:35.916
Yeah.
00:08:35.946 --> 00:08:38.836
What I thought would bring me happiness isn't.
00:08:39.726 --> 00:08:48.646
But then that just plays on a loop, and so the a- the questions can disrupt the loop so that y- they, the thinking can go deeper.
00:08:48.986 --> 00:08:55.586
So yeah, you could have these realizations on your own, but working with a coach helps speed up the process.
00:08:56.306 --> 00:08:56.596
Yeah.
00:08:57.176 --> 00:09:29.076
You know what I like about… I'm, you know, I have a, also have a coach myself, and sometimes I'll, I'll go into those coaching sessions with a bit of anxiety because you go into what feels like a meeting or, you know, in Connection, and you feel like you
need to know, like, what, what the agenda is going to be and what you, like, the c- you, you want the control, but, and you go, I go into these coachings meeting, or coaching sessions sometimes and I'm like, "I'm not sure this is gonna be, like, valuable.
00:09:29.106 --> 00:09:34.456
I, I'm not even sure what I wanna talk about." Like, I kinda get stuck on, in my own o- own head.
00:09:35.196 --> 00:09:39.776
But a good coach, and this has happened to me every time I go into a coaching session-
00:09:42.534 --> 00:09:49.944
A good coach just knows how to, one, help you identify what… I mean, and, and it's just like pulling out, like, what's top of mind for you.
00:09:49.944 --> 00:09:51.044
What's, what are you struggling with?
00:09:51.044 --> 00:09:51.334
Yeah.
00:09:51.884 --> 00:10:06.914
And if you can start there- Yeah … a good coach, you don't have to… I mean, it's al- almost like you don't have to worry about anything else, 'cause
a good coach will help guide you to at the end feeling like, "Oh, that felt good, and I have-" Yeah … "a little bit more clarity, and I have…"
00:10:07.344 --> 00:10:09.164
It, it, it just brings that out in you.
00:10:09.164 --> 00:10:22.504
And I've never gone to a coaching session where I walk out going, "That was a waste of time," or, "Why did I even do that?" But I'll often go into a coaching session going, "I, I just don't know, like, I don't know if I wanna spend my time doing this.
00:10:22.514 --> 00:10:23.714
Is this gonna be valuable?"
00:10:23.764 --> 00:10:24.594
And it always is.
00:10:26.304 --> 00:10:32.294
That is so, such a common comment that I get, um, at the beginning.
00:10:32.324 --> 00:10:56.554
Even with a client today, at the end, they, they smiled and said, "I really had this other topic that I wanted to discuss, and we discussed
this topic. But actually, this, where we've come to, my takeaway and my action that I'm committing to is gonna address the original question."
00:10:56.944 --> 00:11:05.094
And they were just blown away because they had that secret agenda and we talked about another agenda, but they still got it solved.
00:11:05.374 --> 00:11:05.974
Yes.
00:11:06.094 --> 00:11:06.864
Yeah, absolutely.
00:11:06.874 --> 00:11:09.524
That's how cool- Yeah.
00:11:10.294 --> 00:11:24.544
So Kate, you're helping, um, working with, with me and Linked Leaders and, and our colleague Chad, and, and one of the things that we're, you're helping to build right now is a mentorship kind of best practices or guide for, for mentors.
00:11:24.854 --> 00:11:24.884
Yes.
00:11:24.894 --> 00:11:35.314
And sometimes we… Let's, let's talk a little bit about, like, the, the, um, overlap that sometimes we use coach, mentor, coach mentor.
00:11:35.994 --> 00:11:36.984
They're not synonymous.
00:11:36.984 --> 00:11:37.874
They are different.
00:11:37.884 --> 00:11:37.914
Yes.
00:11:38.134 --> 00:11:42.114
But they're, they're, there, there's a, there's a relationship there.
00:11:42.404 --> 00:11:49.864
Rather than me trying to, like, pull those apart and, like, kind of talk about, like, where, where they are the same and where they're very different, what's your perspective on that?
00:11:51.304 --> 00:11:58.534
So I feel when I'm in a coach setting, it's really important for me to abide by the ICF code of ethics.
00:11:59.644 --> 00:12:02.314
So that's my bias and that's my perspective.
00:12:02.314 --> 00:12:06.744
So I won't be advising, mentoring, or teaching.
00:12:07.394 --> 00:12:14.334
And oftentimes people come to me because of my experience as a head of school, and they do want mentoring.
00:12:14.574 --> 00:12:22.354
So what I do is I will often say, "Let's make a 60-minute coaching call, and let's finish with 15 minutes of mentorship."
00:12:23.104 --> 00:12:30.474
And what happens- I love that … often is that through the coaching, the mentorship is no longer needed.
00:12:31.524 --> 00:12:52.358
However, I feel like the role of a mentor is someone to say- Okay, say, say a leader is going through a staff crisis, like a safeguarding staff crisis Mm-hmm … and I as a mentor have been through many of those.
00:12:53.418 --> 00:12:58.608
So then my questions wouldn't be ICF related questions.
00:12:58.618 --> 00:13:20.148
My questions would be, you know, "Have you considered working with a safeguarding specialist?" You know, when my experience happened, I hired a safeguarding
specialist on retainer for 10 hours so that I could call, and for all those situations in that year, I said, "Have I done absolutely everything I could do?"
00:13:22.400 --> 00:13:29.890
You know, so the, the mentoring might have storytelling and specific questions like ha- have you considered this?
00:13:30.230 --> 00:13:47.120
What I don't think is appropriate in mentorship is, "You should. You really ought to. If I were you, this is what I'd do." Because a mentor is not… My experience is not their experience.
00:13:48.030 --> 00:13:54.720
So I can share my experience as a mentor to spark the leader's ideas.
00:13:55.450 --> 00:13:55.790
Yeah.
00:13:55.840 --> 00:14:18.704
That's a, I think that's something that I've had to really learn over the last couple years, and still learning, always learning, but is, is- When you feel
that n- that kind of internal instinct to, like, offer advice, 'cause I think it's, it's, like, inherent as, as humans, you know, for whatever reason- Yes
00:14:18.704 --> 00:14:29.724
and, and, and so we wanna, like, offer advice or the, the you should or whatever else, I think that's a, at a level of ex- you know, a level further than just offering advice.
00:14:29.954 --> 00:14:31.684
But the experience share is really important.
00:14:31.914 --> 00:14:44.414
Like, and that's something that, that we, I mean, this program, this, uh, this accelerator program and, and we do our masterminds, and that's really what we spend the time in those masterminds is, like…
00:14:44.444 --> 00:14:46.214
And, and frame it as an experience share.
00:14:46.214 --> 00:15:02.914
So if you just shared kinda what you're working on or struggling with and, and I can have a relatable experience and it, it's about my experience and that maybe s- somehow unlocks something for you, um, then great.
00:15:03.044 --> 00:15:04.164
I just had that this week.
00:15:04.244 --> 00:15:09.914
We, in, in our, in our accelerator program, we have monthly masterminds for two hours.
00:15:09.914 --> 00:15:10.644
They're awesome.
00:15:10.654 --> 00:15:20.494
We have this great group of people from, from leaders all over the, uh, country doing different things, and, um, the, the cohort experience is, is phenomenal.
00:15:20.494 --> 00:15:22.144
We'll come back to that with Leadership Studios.
00:15:22.174 --> 00:15:27.254
But, um, so I had to do my deep dive this month.
00:15:27.254 --> 00:15:39.004
I was so anxious in going into it, you know, 'cause I was on the hot seat this month, and, and share, you know, just shared kind of what, what I, what I, you know, was putting out there as kind of where I was, um, wanting some, some support.
00:15:39.034 --> 00:15:48.424
And, and every one of them had an experience share in their own respective, like, journeys and experiences and things like that.
00:15:48.854 --> 00:15:56.304
And although our backgrounds and contexts are completely different, I could take away something from each one of those.
00:15:56.614 --> 00:16:02.274
But then also through all the collective experience shares, see a through line.
00:16:02.394 --> 00:16:12.024
Like, what is a common through line- Yeah … through all those things that I'm listening to that plays back to what I was really needing from that deep dive?
00:16:12.374 --> 00:16:13.074
It was awesome.
00:16:13.284 --> 00:16:13.834
I loved it.
00:16:14.684 --> 00:16:16.304
That is incredible.
00:16:17.764 --> 00:16:27.894
Well, Kate, you have done a phenomenal job leading also not just the coaching, but the, but this, this new cohort model at Link Leaders that we call Link Leadership Studios.
00:16:27.894 --> 00:16:29.524
We did a pilot in, in June.
00:16:29.534 --> 00:16:44.184
You and Chad, our other colleague, um, really designed this from the ground up, and it's all focused on engagement and really creating that community peer-to-peer, um, connection.
00:16:44.924 --> 00:16:48.524
Why don't you talk a little bit about conceptually what is a leadership studio through Link Leaders?
00:16:48.554 --> 00:16:52.004
What is it, and what did you… How did you design it?
00:16:52.004 --> 00:16:54.074
Like, just, like, kinda high level.
00:16:54.074 --> 00:17:00.504
Don't go into sup- a lot of super details on that, but, like, give people a feel of what is a leadership studio and what does it entail.
00:17:01.576 --> 00:17:13.906
Well, I think together, you, Chad, and I, it might have even been your idea, the word studio, um, connotates like art and like creating something.
00:17:14.196 --> 00:17:26.336
So that gave me, um, the belief that it could be more creative and less of a, a teaching experience.
00:17:26.346 --> 00:17:48.066
So while there was, there was teaching every single week, and there were, um… It was more like creating a space, that studio, creating the studio space where leaders got to come and have ideas sprinkled in more than teaching.
00:17:48.526 --> 00:17:48.616
Yeah.
00:17:48.626 --> 00:17:51.756
Like, there's this book, The Gap and The Gain.
00:17:52.186 --> 00:18:01.096
That was when, when I read the, um, survey at the end, The Gap and The Gain was one of the favorite lessons, that first lesson.
00:18:02.556 --> 00:18:08.476
A little bit of teaching and sparking ideas, like you could think of your year like this.
00:18:08.736 --> 00:18:22.286
What would that… So using coaching questions, what would it be like if you focused on what you gained over the course of that year rather than what we all do, focus on all the things we didn't achieve?
00:18:24.402 --> 00:18:24.782
You know?
00:18:24.782 --> 00:18:30.772
And we had a safe space to then explore the concept.
00:18:31.202 --> 00:18:52.632
So I tried to frame, uh, all the sessions w- that we were together, um, around books that had interesting reflections for leaders that then we could spark this internal debate.
00:18:52.672 --> 00:19:04.032
And I, to create this, I used a lot of people like Peter Block's work on building community, um, Brene Brown's work on vulnerability.
00:19:04.362 --> 00:19:22.312
So really looking at what does it look like to bring people together, create psychological safety in a safe space, and really have most of the session be sharing of stories and reflecting.
00:19:23.372 --> 00:19:23.712
Yeah.
00:19:24.722 --> 00:19:33.822
Well, and it, the way you and Chad approached this and designed it and, and more importantly, facilitate it resonated.
00:19:33.872 --> 00:19:35.822
I'm gonna read a couple quotes here.
00:19:35.822 --> 00:19:40.242
So this is by, um, I wanna say Lazin.
00:19:40.252 --> 00:19:42.152
Is that the right pronunciation?
00:19:42.162 --> 00:19:42.942
The first- Lashin.
00:19:43.162 --> 00:19:43.692
Lashin?
00:19:43.832 --> 00:19:44.342
Thank you.
00:19:44.392 --> 00:19:47.052
I knew, I, yeah, I knew it was wrong when I said it.
00:19:47.402 --> 00:20:01.142
Um, she said, "The circle, sitting with the same people across all six sessions and being honest, really honest, not professionally polished about what, what's actually hard, you don't get that in a staff meeting."
00:20:02.222 --> 00:20:04.192
That is it right there.
00:20:04.202 --> 00:20:04.222
Yeah.
00:20:04.232 --> 00:20:20.202
Like, to be able to sit with peers, the space is created to be vulnerable, be real, talk about the things that are really hard, and, um, those are rare moments when you get to have those opportunities, right?
00:20:20.262 --> 00:20:25.002
Especially when you're in a leadership position, like you're kind of a shell, right?
00:20:25.002 --> 00:20:43.242
You gotta be the, you know, be the leader and, and all these things that are on your shoulders that you're, that are weighing you down, like you just
gotta carry them, and you get, you, very rarely you get the opportunity to really connect and talk with peers that are sharing the similar weight.
00:20:43.712 --> 00:20:44.192
I love it.
00:20:45.192 --> 00:20:45.722
Yeah.
00:20:45.882 --> 00:20:59.002
And one of the most powerful things was we were all in different countries, and all working from different countries, you know, minus a few of the same countries.
00:20:59.392 --> 00:21:16.176
But that, to be able to express an issue that you've had and hear that that was the same issue that somebody else has experienced across the world- There's something that just lets, lets you breathe and go, "I'm not alone."
00:21:16.536 --> 00:21:16.856
Yeah.
00:21:17.276 --> 00:21:17.996
Absolutely.
00:21:18.846 --> 00:21:19.146
Yeah.
00:21:19.646 --> 00:21:21.236
Well, there's so much to build on there.
00:21:21.246 --> 00:21:29.416
I mean, the three-week pilot that we did in June, um, was very, um, uh, well-received.
00:21:29.486 --> 00:21:37.526
Um, I think five out of five, and everybody that took the survey afterwards and just gushed, um, about you and your facilitation.
00:21:38.206 --> 00:21:51.216
And we're excited to be offering new s- I mean, fresh new studios starting October 5th, and we'll- those are advertised on our website, so there'll be a lot of opportunity for other people to, to participate in those.
00:21:51.696 --> 00:22:00.676
And, um, take what we learned and c- always improve, but I think stretching them out a little bit longer and, you know, especially during the school year.
00:22:01.006 --> 00:22:07.786
But we're, we're really hoping to bring, you know, a lot of leaders from all over the place together for these different studios.
00:22:07.796 --> 00:22:10.166
And we have two main studios that we're offering.
00:22:10.566 --> 00:22:14.816
Um, the one that you facilitated, Building Your Inner Leader.
00:22:15.076 --> 00:22:19.066
So who would that c- who do you think about when you, when you think about that audience?
00:22:19.066 --> 00:22:20.106
And then we'll talk about the other one.
00:22:21.836 --> 00:22:24.576
So I thought it was really helpful.
00:22:24.576 --> 00:22:32.886
We had coordinators that were- had quite heavy loads of managing down and managing up, right?
00:22:32.956 --> 00:22:35.086
And, and, and leading in the middle.
00:22:35.826 --> 00:22:36.156
Yeah.
00:22:36.166 --> 00:22:40.046
So, um, that's a really hard spot to be in.
00:22:40.546 --> 00:22:53.636
Um, uh, when I wrote it, I was really thinking of, uh, like heads of school and people with a lot, a lot of responsibility, but it was also really beneficial for middle leaders.
00:22:54.826 --> 00:22:55.166
Yeah.
00:22:56.608 --> 00:22:58.648
Yeah, it seems like it's so transferable.
00:22:58.648 --> 00:23:12.028
I mean, building your inner leader and what you, what the, the curriculum you designed, and then the space that you created for, for a connection, it seems like who, who doesn't it, it apply to, I mean, is maybe a better question.
00:23:12.218 --> 00:23:19.458
If, if you're in a leadership position, I think regardless of where you are in your journey, I think you can get something out of it, um, without a doubt.
00:23:19.878 --> 00:23:25.958
If nothing else, um, with the learning from other, your peers and, and the other people in the room.
00:23:26.308 --> 00:23:30.898
And the, the other, other one we offered was, um, building stronger teams, and Chad led that one.
00:23:31.448 --> 00:23:36.248
And, uh, obviously, you know, in a leadership position you typically are, you have a team.
00:23:36.248 --> 00:23:38.708
You're not leading yourself and, or by yourself.
00:23:38.778 --> 00:23:51.858
You might be by yourself, but you have a team, and this was really about, um, kind of elevating others around you and, and building, um, building a strong, competent and cohesive team.
00:23:52.298 --> 00:23:53.848
Um, anything you'd want to share on that?
00:23:54.898 --> 00:23:55.388
Yeah.
00:23:55.428 --> 00:24:23.788
I, I, um, talked to Chad as we were creating these and, um, w- I run the IB's workshop called Leading and Managing Teams, and a lot of the… separately, not
knowing that I do that, Chad u- used some of the same material and led it in sort of the same way, u- using Patrick Lencioni's, um, Five Dysfunctions of a Team.
00:24:24.188 --> 00:24:24.548
Yeah, which is a great book.
00:24:24.548 --> 00:24:27.778
And, uh, it's a great book.
00:24:27.848 --> 00:24:49.408
And then knowing that he held space for leaders to have conversations, and his group was different from my group, and there were people at different
stages that were able to share stories from different parts of their path on their career, and I know it was really powerful for the people in the room.
00:24:50.408 --> 00:25:07.248
Yeah, what was cool about that one too, um, similar to I think both of these different, um, studios that we were, we're offering
kind of, um, are so transferable, but in that particular studio he had, you know, at least one principal that basically has retired.
00:25:07.268 --> 00:25:16.638
He's, he's kind of on his second career, 40-plus years in education, and I love that he still showed up and was wanting to learn.
00:25:16.988 --> 00:25:24.048
And then you had on the other end in, in the same studio a, a principal that was, I think she was in her first, uh, probably second or third year.
00:25:24.248 --> 00:25:26.418
Early, early career- Yeah … principal, right?
00:25:26.768 --> 00:25:33.718
And they both- Exactly … I think gained something from each other and also just the experience, uh, together.
00:25:33.738 --> 00:25:35.638
So it wasn't like, you know, I'm…
00:25:36.628 --> 00:25:47.478
Anyway, I, I think that's really cool that you can create a space like that and regardless of kind of where you are in your journey, you can still get so much value from it, and that's just really good design on you and Chad's part.
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:51.880
And I think it's a access point.
00:25:52.930 --> 00:26:03.840
Coaching and mentorship is not yet, it hasn't yet pl- proliferated through education like I believe it should.
00:26:04.760 --> 00:26:25.270
And so being a part of a studio is like a safe space to see what mentorship and coaching kinda look like in a group setting- Yeah … where, uh, um, a little bit of reflection can happen, connecting can happen, but also menti- mentoring and coaching.
00:26:25.900 --> 00:26:26.860
Yep, absolutely.
00:26:27.620 --> 00:26:37.310
Well, and this is, you know, and this is not an infomercial, but, I mean, that's at the core of what Link Leaders is about, is starting with the coaching and the mentoring.
00:26:37.520 --> 00:26:59.320
Like, if you are- Yeah … if you don't have access right now to a high quality mentor or coach, or even if you do, having a s- a second person to get support and perspective in the
leadership positions that, that we're in, whether you're a principal, assistant principal, superintendent, head of school, whatever, I don't think you can g- ever get too much support.
00:26:59.410 --> 00:27:18.910
And so what, what I love about what we're trying to do is there is no excuse for someone not to have that kind of support, 'cause we have 30 plus
mentors that are available right now for anybody, and, uh, people like you that are waiting and, and ready to support any leader, and, and Chad as well.
00:27:19.870 --> 00:27:27.360
And then we have this peer-focused, um, aspect with the Leadership Studios and some of the other things that we do on our platform.
00:27:27.800 --> 00:27:43.130
And y- between those two, I don't know if there's better professional development, in my opinion, than one-to-one support through with a coach or a mentor, and getting together with peers to talk about real stuff.
00:27:43.350 --> 00:27:46.770
Like, I don't know if there's better, like, combo than those two things.
00:27:46.800 --> 00:28:00.720
You can go to a workshop, you can go to a conference, you can pull, pull away some nuggets, but in terms of return on investment of time, which we don't have a luxury of time, you're gonna get the mes- most, the most bang for your buck in both of those areas.
00:28:01.070 --> 00:28:02.030
Agree or disagree, Kate?
00:28:03.140 --> 00:28:07.120
I would 100% agree, and I'll give you my reasons why.
00:28:07.790 --> 00:28:11.420
One of the reasons is it's problem-based practice.
00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:21.450
And when I did my, uh, certificate of school management and leadership, every course was about a problem of practice.
00:28:21.820 --> 00:28:31.890
So any time you wanna have effective PD, you want to be dealing with something that is current and context based.
00:28:32.700 --> 00:28:33.030
Relevant.
00:28:33.030 --> 00:28:33.330
Right?
00:28:33.330 --> 00:28:35.040
You g- Yeah … relevant.
00:28:36.808 --> 00:28:45.698
And, um, then the second reason that I think that it is the best is it's, uh, differentiated.
00:28:46.708 --> 00:28:47.198
Yes.
00:28:48.038 --> 00:28:48.398
Yeah.
00:28:48.418 --> 00:28:50.268
So do I wanna build my inner leader?
00:28:50.268 --> 00:28:52.438
Do I wanna build stronger teams?
00:28:52.698 --> 00:29:02.058
And then inside the person leading it, the next time Chad leads building your building stronger teams, he'll have different people.
00:29:02.088 --> 00:29:03.878
It'll run differently.
00:29:04.088 --> 00:29:06.708
Same with me when I run building your inner leader.
00:29:06.888 --> 00:29:18.068
We, as educator coaches, we can differentiate over the space of time for people to, um, have a differentiated experience.
00:29:18.578 --> 00:29:18.898
Yeah.
00:29:19.278 --> 00:29:19.938
Absolutely.
00:29:20.228 --> 00:29:48.270
You know, when I talk to district leaders that are looking for solutions for their, for their district, I think that is, that is really what, um- I, I don't know, I think would be a challenge as a district
leader if you, you know, whether you have 10, 10 school leaders in your district or, or, you know, 200, how do you as a, as a district leader get, give individualized support for each one of those principals?
00:29:48.270 --> 00:29:52.040
Because the reality is- Yeah … they all need something different.
00:29:52.080 --> 00:29:59.440
And even if they're on their 30th year or their third year or first year, they're gonna need, they, they all need support.
00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:01.040
There's no question they all need support.
00:30:01.050 --> 00:30:01.080
Yes.
00:30:01.090 --> 00:30:05.690
Whether they're asking for it or getting, getting support is another question, but they all need support.
00:30:06.210 --> 00:30:09.050
Um, it, it, but it's different for, for all of those.
00:30:09.060 --> 00:30:11.060
So how do you do that as a, as a district?
00:30:11.090 --> 00:30:25.420
And, um, one of the districts we're working with, um, closely, that's why they partner with us because if they have, you know, they have five elementary school leaders, we have people that they can, they can connect with.
00:30:25.470 --> 00:30:27.280
They have high school leaders we can connect.
00:30:27.280 --> 00:30:31.870
And if district office personnel, whether a curriculum or whatever else, we have people.
00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:33.110
And it's not all the same people.
00:30:33.270 --> 00:30:35.010
I mean, they're all, they're all, they're all different.
00:30:35.490 --> 00:30:39.710
Um, so I think that's really key is the differentiation part.
00:30:39.770 --> 00:30:47.830
Whether you're doing the coaching or the mentoring or with peers, it's gonna be context based on what you need specifically, so.
00:30:47.850 --> 00:30:52.610
And the ability to choose to look at the Link Leaders website, that's what I love.
00:30:52.610 --> 00:31:05.220
And look at all the different people and their different experiences and, and choose a coach or a mentor who shares your experience or who is in- Yeah.
00:31:06.230 --> 00:31:13.140
One of the things I've noticed is that there are many people that are in a current position and wanna be in the next position.
00:31:13.760 --> 00:31:24.630
So a lot of people come to me and say, you know, "Kate, I'm a senior school principal. I wanna, I wanna do what you did and go into headship. Tell me what do I need to do to get there?" Yeah.
00:31:24.630 --> 00:31:30.710
And so Link Leaders has people that in the US, you've got a few people internationally.
00:31:31.980 --> 00:31:43.570
Districts or leaders can look and see who is that person that has that role that I am really trying to go after and figure out what would be best for me to do to get that role.
00:31:44.090 --> 00:31:44.480
Yeah.
00:31:45.250 --> 00:31:48.270
And I, and, and the flip side of that is someone that's in a rut.
00:31:48.390 --> 00:31:57.840
So you're talking about somebody that's, like, motivated to go forward and, like, they, they see a vision for themselves, and maybe there's not opportunity within their district to feed them and to help them elevate.
00:31:58.912 --> 00:32:01.582
But then there's the others that are like, "I'm just stuck.
00:32:01.592 --> 00:32:04.692
I don't even know if I wanna be in this leadership position." Yes.
00:32:04.692 --> 00:32:13.042
Or I'm just like… And there is, I mean, coaching can also unlock some things with, with that individual as well, right?
00:32:13.042 --> 00:32:25.312
In coaching and mentorship, and kinda bring back the fire and, and help, help that individual kind of re-find their, their why and why, what they're doing and why they're doing what they're doing, right?
00:32:25.312 --> 00:32:35.012
So I think whether you're on either one of those ends of the spectrum- Yes … coaching and, and mentoring can, can really be the unlock that you're looking for.
00:32:36.202 --> 00:32:44.842
That was my first ever desire, and on my website, was to help teachers not leave the profession.
00:32:45.972 --> 00:32:56.982
My first desire was at, when I first became a coach, was to help teachers deal with the stresses of the classroom, and to coach them to help them stay in the profession.
00:32:57.002 --> 00:32:57.312
Yeah.
00:32:57.422 --> 00:32:57.742
Yeah.
00:32:58.052 --> 00:32:58.372
Yeah.
00:32:58.652 --> 00:33:01.382
We have way too many great people leaving, right?
00:33:01.382 --> 00:33:08.852
And we always talk about it within our, within our own circle of Flink leaders, is we're all about keeping great leaders leading longer.
00:33:08.892 --> 00:33:16.952
We want, we need to keep them in the profession, and we have a ri- a lot of good leaders that we wanna, um, help become great, right?
00:33:16.952 --> 00:33:31.822
And, and then- Yes … there's this other layer that we haven't talked about much about, but we also have this, this whole aspiring leader, people that are maybe not in the seat yet, that, um, we want to begin leading, and we w- they wanna begin leading.
00:33:31.972 --> 00:33:36.642
Um, and we wanna support that aspiring leader as well.
00:33:36.652 --> 00:33:38.252
So a lot of opportunity there.
00:33:38.522 --> 00:33:43.972
So anyway, this wasn't meant to be an infomercial, but it all relates and connects and, and things like that.
00:33:43.982 --> 00:33:46.872
So, and we're, uh, looks like we're about 40 minutes in.
00:33:46.872 --> 00:33:48.632
I u- usually try to keep these about 30 minutes.
00:33:48.632 --> 00:33:49.862
I forgot we're even doing a podcast.
00:33:49.902 --> 00:33:51.462
We just start- started having a conversation.
00:33:51.472 --> 00:33:59.112
So, um, well, Kate, what, what question maybe I haven't, haven't I asked that I should have asked, that you would love for me to ask?
00:34:00.222 --> 00:34:04.272
That i- that in its, in and of itself is a great question
00:34:10.098 --> 00:34:13.058
Maybe, uh, like what is my personal mission?
00:34:14.108 --> 00:34:16.218
Hey, Kate, what's your personal mission?
00:34:17.318 --> 00:34:18.738
My personal mission.
00:34:18.808 --> 00:34:25.798
I'm on a mission to humanize education, and I'm starting with humanizing leadership
00:34:28.010 --> 00:34:32.070
I feel like that's like the mic drop moment of the, of the conversation.
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:34.060
Need we say more?
00:34:35.600 --> 00:34:35.920
Yeah.
00:34:36.350 --> 00:34:38.980
And that's, that's why I love working with LINC Leaders.
00:34:39.240 --> 00:34:51.240
The other day I literally sat down and thought, "You know, what would I make if I could make anything out of scratch?" And I was like, I would make a, I would make a website where there'd be coaches for leaders.
00:34:51.330 --> 00:34:54.180
I was like, wait, that's, that's LINC Leaders.
00:34:55.050 --> 00:34:58.310
I'm like, we're, we're, we're actually already doing that.
00:34:59.160 --> 00:35:05.080
But it was f- I, and I was just gonna say after you said your mission is like, Kate, you are, you're in your sweet spot right now.
00:35:05.090 --> 00:35:11.670
You are, you are doing, doing the mission, and, uh, you're- Yeah … in a position to impact a lot of people, which is really cool.
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:13.610
So awesome, awesome.
00:35:14.050 --> 00:35:21.310
Well, Kate, thanks for the conversation and for all you do in education and leadership, and I really enjoy- Mm
00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:24.290
working with you and learning from you every day, so I appreciate you.
00:35:24.590 --> 00:35:31.610
And for those that are listening to this podcast, thanks for listening, and, uh, come back to the next episode as well and share it with your friends.
00:35:32.150 --> 00:35:34.180
Kate, any last words of wisdom for our listeners?
00:35:35.970 --> 00:35:36.750
Get a coach.
00:35:38.340 --> 00:35:38.790
There you go.
00:35:40.940 --> 00:35:41.340
All right.
00:35:41.560 --> 00:35:42.180
Thanks, Kate.
00:35:42.710 --> 00:35:43.670
Thank you.
