Theresa Wells: Hello, welcome back to Transform. So infrastructure asset owners around the world are facing the same fundamental tension. There's enormous pressure from governments, communities, economies. We all want to build new roads, new pipes, new networks. Everyone loves the new. And the logic is compelling. Why do governments do it? Where basically more capacity means more productivity. We're looking at how do we get freight to move faster across our networks? How do we unlock land for housing? And it's all about an economic growth.
Tash Wilson: You've been listening to Transform by GHD. Big ideas, real impact. Welcome to Transform, tomorrow's thinking today. Real conversations on the innovation shaping businesses and our society.
Theresa Wells: I guess the problem that sometimes doesn't get enough airtime is we already have about 90 % of the assets that will run for the next 100 years. So how do we keep them in a good state of repair? And it isn't just a maintenance question, it is a strategic one as well. Because if we allow them to fall into a state of disrepair, we're undermining the very outcomes that all the new investment is supposed to support. So the industry has known this for a while. There's been a massive focus on to create digital asset data ⁓ there's been a significant push towards it. standardization of that has come around in terms of helping us understand how we manage information. ⁓ everyone's looking towards ⁓ better records of their asset data, holding more information. ⁓ that's great. But what's evolved from is it's a big problem of fragmentation because the people doing it are sort of spread across the industry. So it might be consultants or contractors, ⁓ but the asset tends to just get what comes over the fence to them. So there's a real lack of centralisation and of that information. But it means that they're drowning in the data, but they still don't actually have the information they need to make, the right decisions and to prioritize spend in the right way and to really understand the state of their asset. So today's conversation is about that gap and what closing it really takes. We're going to look at what Tauranga City Council and GHD have learned doing this type of work together But we also want to just take a look to the horizon as well. ⁓ What does the future look like for asset owners APAC, across the globe when we actually get this First of all, I to welcome our two panelists and welcome Juan Martinez from Tauranga City
Juan Martinez: Thank you, Theresa, nice being here.
Theresa Wells: And welcome to Ask Some Simon from GHD.
Asem Zabin: good see you both.
Theresa Wells: Fionn, I want to start with ⁓ You sit in the in one of our in New Zealand, and you've got really a and view of what's changing for asset owners across ⁓ New Zealand and across APAC as well. What's going to drive in the fundamental changes?
Juan Martinez: Yes, thank you, Theresa. I think one of the most fundamental changes is expectation on local government. ⁓ governments today are expected to do more, produce more, complexities, more scrutiny, more questions. ⁓ at the same time, they expected to do that with the same or fewer resources, the other side, also got an issue that is aging infrastructure across the sector. The growth, pressure, people, population, related risk, compliance requirements, community expectation, level service. what we can say is that there is actually what is driving the changes is the need to make better decisions with better information. that is really pushing councils ⁓ local government to modernise not just technology, but capabilities behind how they manage information, know, assets, operations. It's not just about technology, but it's the capabilities are sitting behind those processes.
Theresa Wells: I We see a lot of that ⁓ pressure coming from central government as well. I Bishop, his minister for spending lot time days talking about his are around how we our more effectively.
Juan Martinez: Mmm.
Theresa Wells: I think you sort of touched on a point there that sort of spin to you, Assam, and the capabilities that the organizations have. And we can't just magic those out of thin air. So ⁓ in your opinion, what capability gaps did you see that asset owners are struggling with the most as this change accelerates?
Asem Zabin: Yeah, it's probably more challenging in the recent years with AI exponential transformation that's happened over the last few years. What has happened for asset owners is been building over the last or forever, right? Previously we lacked information, and what's been happening recently is because of that there was a big push to get more information about your assets. ⁓ And so we getting a lot of really good information. we're getting a lot of data. ⁓ While this sounds really amazing, The problem now with the asset owners are facing is that it's actually the other way around. Everyone thinks they have data. No one has You actually don't have access to the right information. that is probably problem number one. And The research shows There is a really... good amount of time spent on finding the right information and that does take time from you as a professional. That takes time from your business processes. So 20 to 30 percent of your time is spent on finding the right information. that's again, that's really a lot of time of you wasted on looking for the right information. So that's one thing that owners are struggling with. And then the second one I would say is managing knowledge. whole revolution we're going through with the digital revolution or the AI revolution, ⁓ moving away from intuition experience. So the way we used to know things, again, as asset owners, whether it's rail or or whatever we're looking at, the knowledge was always in the intuition ⁓ and institutional And now it's kind of getting democratized. ⁓ That is a big change for the industry as well. And really building on what Juan was saying, there is always budget constraints. So how do you do more for less while still need a of the capability built behind you. there is that. And then how do you engage with the supply chain? ⁓ on the organization, you are used to getting a lot of your delivery from the supply chain.
Juan Martinez: agree with you 100 % RMA. when you were talking about data in the concept that everyone has, but everyone doesn't have data. true value for the organizations win operations. start making decisions. They get insights from the data. That's when it becomes valuable. That's when you're translating value for money, doing more with less. I guess the key there, when we talk about ⁓ and capabilities and all that stuff, building that structure, takes a lot of discipline. and governance. And without those layers, you can build something, but you're not making it sustainable for the longevity.
Asem Zabin: Yes.
Theresa Wells: I think some of the areas you're touching on, capability gap seem to be ⁓ that the industry is all moving at different as well. you describe ⁓ some people capturing lots of ⁓ organizations collecting of data, but not really the information they need because ⁓ they're maybe not moving at the same speed terms of understanding how they capitalize on the information they're collecting. And then looking after it as an asset, you can have touched on as well.
Asem Zabin: Yes.
Theresa Wells: not maybe realizing that that's something that just like a physical asset actually does need to be maintained as well. within organizations, you don't quite have those roles and responsibilities set out. So perhaps it's a lack of governance or or an understanding of how you should actually treat this particular asset, which is your asset data.
Juan Martinez: Mmm.
Theresa Wells: So we wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about what happened at Tauranga City Council and what really made you as infrastructure owners take a step change into realising that you needed to build your own capability. Before we sort of talk about the actual work, we probably should give you a little context of where Taorung is in the world, what a city council does here in New Zealand. So I'm to pass over to you, Juan, to talk about that first.
Juan Martinez: Yeah, thank you, Derisa. Yeah, Torrenga City Council sits in the east coast of the North Island New Zealand. Torrenga City is around at the moment is hosting around 160,000 people population-wise, to give you bit of the size of the population. And it's growing in the last 10 years. City Council It looks after assets or critical infrastructure within the city. ⁓ could divide them in three areas. One is transport, roading, the one is water, and the other one is buildings. I myself, I within that water pillar, that ⁓ So most of the work is being done within that work activity. I guess I'll a of around when we started this work, The main challenge the time for us ⁓ was sitting different systems, different teams, different formats. ⁓ It really hard an operational point of view to a view maintenance, for operations, for planning of those assets. As a consequence of those silos, creates quite a bit of friction when it comes to decision making. It makes it difficult, takes more time. ⁓ spend much longer trying to find information, checking, reworking Instead of ⁓ using data, the information that is available on those, we confidence, I can trust this. I guess everything comes to, can I trust? this data to make an operational decision. for us, from a water perspective, the aim was to build a strong foundation so information could be more reliable, it could be more connected, and more useful not just at a project level, but on the asset lifecycle.
Theresa Wells: you just described the same problem that probably every infrastructure asset owner has in New Zealand and maybe around the world. Was there anything sort of just tipped you over the edge?
Juan Martinez: I guess it down to ownership, how much you want it, how much you want to change it. That's what it comes down to. And once I believe ⁓ that the side of you looking after your asset, the asset management side, is something that gets overlooked. And the project delivery more time on the radio. right on the operations side of the asset. when you think about the asset life cycle, you might spend one year, five years building an asset, but you're going to spend 20, 50 years maintaining that asset, operating the asset. And so realizing the value, comes to many different things. ⁓ ⁓ that's more an organization and having the right leadership in place, ⁓
Theresa Wells: always been impressed that you did, obviously, and we have seen others sort of following your footsteps, which has been great. ⁓ Tauranga has been well ⁓ as a leader in this space, particularly for councils in New Zealand. let's kind of get to the stuff. there was a vision, we know some of the and problems and you actually went on a journey to do this. Asm, you were working right alongside Juan and the teams over there. your opinion, first of all, and then can pass it to you as well, Juan, what does the work enable now that just wasn't even possible before?
Asem Zabin: Well, I think Tauranga City Council did is they really took a step back and focused on the foundation, trying to build that ⁓ data right? Trying to build data literacy in the council, try to build a better understanding of the importance of asset information and getting it right from the capital And that's really key. What it enables is there is a change roles internally. So rather than us spending time on finding information as the asset information team or the asset managers, ⁓ role has become into becoming more of a custodian ⁓ the asset information, And also, ⁓ it means that we can report ⁓ better for the community because at end of the day this is what the council's job is. So, if want to report really well on the community, you can predict things before they actually happen because as Juan said in the beginning of this you want that a driven decision. do ⁓ you to know when are you going to replace this pipe before it's too late or when is this system going to fail before it's too late? ⁓ and you can do this with really good asset data. So that's really what enables everybody wants to do AI and we really love AI. We want to do more of that to an extent. at the same time, you want to get your foundation right. So ⁓ this really what it enables. So before you go to the shiny stuff, it will enable a lot of... Basically, you're building the really good foundation and then once you get the right foundation, you can build whatever you want on top of it. I'll pass it to you, Juan, if you want to add anything there.
Juan Martinez: It's not a pretty comprehensive ascent, but it basically sets the foundation for a more connected and useful view of how we deal with information. instead of relying from data points in time or manual interpretations, we call now a stronger foundation for consistency, traceability, cross-team. collaboration visibility. If you look at that, that turns into ⁓ operational awareness. And that is the key that the organization from project delivery, from planning, from asset management brings the operational awareness, the real value, the real cause of maintaining that asset. we start better aligning between and operations. If we can just do that.
Theresa Wells: I think you just described the dream.
Juan Martinez: exactly right. So we can just, and I'm talking about foundations in here, right? That we set in the foundation for those things. And I guess if you look forward, the idea is by bringing that operational awareness to the delivery and you can align them, then you build a stronger confidence in decisions that need to be made from day zero procurement.
Theresa Wells: It's a really good point and it kind of goes back to your first when you were talking about having lots of data but not able to do as much as you would like with it. think that the understanding that the data you have is data you can use, that it's accurate, it's complete, it's current, it's as important as having as much information as possible at your fingertips. You know, I've definitely heard other councils describe and other asset owners just describe it. We've got lots of information, but we don't really know if it's I having that kind of discipline around the of information as much as we do around our physical assets is it's going to be gold.
Asem Zabin: I was talking to someone yesterday here in Sydney about this. The other indirect answer to your question, Tracey, is if we look at what Toranga City Council is doing at the moment, they have pretty much like a digital twin. They are scanning almost every single that they have in the water space at least there is a lot of things that's happening there and That is an indirect result that was not obviously the plan when you start this product but once you've improved the capability and once you do that capability uplift then the maturity arises ⁓ in ⁓ council and so innovation comes to play so ⁓ this is kind of things you want to see for your community because what they're trying to do is more predictive things. So the stuff that Juan is doing with the operational digital twin is exactly that. So that's one of the things that I really love watching is the indirect result of that is now you've got more mature, more progressive who want to do more for the community.
Theresa Wells: Yeah, I love that because it actually says, well, you've almost moved the dial on the expectations that people have around what they can do with a digital asset now. And one, you're rising to the challenge of that by having the models themselves there as well. And I know talking to other councils, And like touched a bit on obviously what's changed and how it's changed and really sort of driving these expectations. But We know that it wasn't easy, right? We didn't start in, you know, last month and we're here, ta-da, already. It was, from what I remember, October 2021 that we kind of started this journey. it's been a long journey of change and lots of, challenges along the way in terms of, explaining it to people and making them be able to understand why it would make a difference to them. Why did they have to change rather than expect it? perhaps a consultant or a contractor will just do things differently and we'll get the same magical outcome. it might be just worth touching on what needed to change internally. And that's just right across people and processes that you have and governance, not just technology, what needed to happen to make this successful.
Juan Martinez: Yeah, that's the key to make it sustainable that it can stay over time. And I guess exactly right. It's not about technology. Definitely not. That should be the last thing. the technology, tool itself is not going to make it stick, not going to make it stay around for too long. I think it's more about the combination of clear ownership the better defined processes. governance that give the continuity, know, it provides the work with the continuity that it needs. Without the clear ownership, the defined process and governance, becomes really difficult for the longevity of it. And I guess internally for us, the or the change, it started when people started seeing ⁓ the as an operational asset. not just as an output of a project, I think if people need to take ⁓ something away from this it's the to bring those things closer. Why? Because then there can be accountability around data quality decision use from a project delivery, from a genesis of a planning initiative. Then the capability to sustain all of these things, they become sustainable on their own. Then they become the norm, rather than experimental, rather than a proof of concept, rather than a pocket here and there. It's really hard without the right governance. and ownership to make it sustainable because otherwise you start developing all of these different camps here and there that when you try to join them together going to struggle big time. ⁓ us there was a lot of change management, Developing those things that we do now together. Bring them, ask them. What does it need to change? How makes your life, your day to day easier? Better, more productive, But bring them along the journey, develop it together. Collaboration.
Theresa Wells: Mm. Very much. Yeah, I think everyone's got to see themselves in the success of the initiative before they're to put the hard yards in. if you take this work to ⁓ others in terms of trying to help them ⁓ leverage Tauranga and others in this space are doing, there anything you would be saying
Juan Martinez: you
Asem Zabin: Well, I think as Juan said, ⁓ and Teresa, you know this very well. We've done before ⁓ and we tried different ways and we spoke to different clients ⁓ what we see is clients and consultants big this really beautiful decks that tells you a really good story of where are we starting and where are we going to end up. oftentimes it just stays where it was delivered. What Toronga City Council did, and Juan already touched on this, is having the right vision. But also what they did did the bottom-up approach, which is find the project. So you really want to run them both together. You want to have your vision, plan, your roadmap. But at the same time, you are showing some quick wins. You started somewhere. Just do the mahi, as what we say in Tireo, which means do the work, really. So that's kind of why, if you want to start this one, then another organization really is, I would say, do kind of both of them at the same time. want to have a plan because that's what your leadership team want to see. They want to trust you on this, but at the same time, the leadership team want to see results. So before they lose hope it, you want to show them some outcomes really, basically.
Theresa Wells: 100 % yeah, I think that's really good advice for anyone in terms of how you get started and what you often say, just get started.
Juan Martinez: Just cracking into it 100 % and that is exactly right. You need to get some wins, quick wins that you can show and gain the trust once again. You know, that the trust that the leadership team and the sponsorship team, the executive team will say, hey, yep, we can back that up and we can become a BAU eventually. But you need to do both, you know, the bottom up and strategic thinking at the same time.
Theresa Wells: Yeah. Thanks, team. That's been a really good perspective what do you need to do to really make it stick? I know I wanted to look a little bit into the future. So get your kind of crystal balls out and do your best. When we're talking about asset owners across APAC and what their future looks like, give us your take on what does it look like into the future? What are we dealing with? It's uncertain, so no one's going to come back in two years and say you were wrong.
Juan Martinez: Mmm.
Theresa Wells: can you see already on the horizon and how do you think the work you've done is going to help us respond to that?
Juan Martinez: I what we're here is decision ⁓ resilience. ⁓ You the to with confidence when those conditions change. No one knows what's going to happen in the future. So building decision resilience is I think that's what we're doing and that's what we can take away. We are also improving visibility, consistency. We are...
Theresa Wells: Hmm.
Juan Martinez: providing confidence in the underlying information, the information that we use to make decisions. And when things change, when the environment becomes a bit uncertain, I believe that as any asset owner, especially on critical infrastructure, need to be able to assess options quickly, understand And I guess if we can have stronger information capabilities, that will give us better platforms for resilience. Then we are becoming less dependent on fragmented siloed knowledge, information, manual work arounds, teams that are working in separate areas. We start getting more that cross pollination. So decision resilience, I think, is the key one.
Theresa Wells: that. That's such a good expression. And I think when you live in New Zealand where we've got you know, natural disaster type events, it's a constant kind of to changing environments and changing state of assets as well.
Juan Martinez: Mm. going back to the point before, as you were making about the AI and technology itself, there is an expectation that organizations today make that decision quicker, that the people quicker, they take action quicker, especially with natural disasters. ⁓ in Tauranga, we are exposed to tsunamis, ⁓
Theresa Wells: Mm.
Juan Martinez: It comes with risks, so we've got to be prepared, we've got to be resilient, know, as a society, as a community, as a country.
Asem Zabin: place. ⁓
Theresa Wells: now that you've moved to Australia, is there a perspective would bring in terms of asset owners over there? I mean, love Juan's expression and I would expect that ⁓ has a resonance. But is there anything specific you're already picking up on from Australia?
Asem Zabin: 100 % I was at a conference and of actually, one of the takeaways that ⁓ water systems that are resilient, if they are not affordable, they're not going to survive politically or financially for the next generation. So if you think about the future, affordability is very important. At least it requires a holistic thinking about engineering, economics, outcomes, environmental sustainability, all together, ⁓ in silos. And then the other thing that comes to my mind is scale and capability, same as New Zealand in Australia, the small fragmented simply could not build specialized expertise. ⁓ the modern water systems whether climate adaptation, digital systems, regulatory systems, and partnerships will be absolutely key us to keep going into the future. that is definitely something that comes to my mind. And then again, we kind of started by talking about this, but it does really come to using what we have today in terms of relying on really good information rather than the intuition that we have or the knowledge or the experience that we have. It's just not going to get us to the next 100 years, really. that data-driven optimization is kind of almost here, really. So how do we use data really to... two more with less,
Theresa Wells: You touched on so many good points there. Our infrastructure assets don't end at council boundaries. don't end with a particular asset type. They're all so interconnected. ⁓ ⁓ think the point on collaboration, but also that standardization and what it actually means for ability to make holistic decisions across ⁓ all facets that you mentioned there that's what's going to drive it. And that's probably, as you described, what's actually needed for the future as well. And one of the points you touched on was not having the scale, particularly in New Zealand, we're a long, skinny country with people all over the country. And Auckland being the biggest is still only one point six million, which is probably tiny in comparison to most cities around the world. But it brings its own challenges because you're rate based. Pairs are spread out across quite a distance and obviously that brings an economic challenge on keeping resilient assets. of the things we're looking at is consolidation of water entities and into bigger larger entities to try and give it a bit more scale and a bit more understanding of how you manage that precious resource ⁓ ⁓ larger geographic ⁓ with larger rate pair base to help sustain the right infrastructure the future. So I 100 % agree with all your points. Asam, you touched on a lot around ⁓ the that we need to think for the future. In order to do that, what capabilities are going to matter most? What do we need to develop within our people and our processes that will actually help support that type of future paradigm?
Asem Zabin: if ask this question probably five, 10 years ago, there are a lot people who tell you data science and programming absolutely be key. ⁓ And it's funny, because if you this question today, it's a changing. I think it's what capability as needed is... having that kind of holistic understanding of what is required, really strategically about... the business really, understanding what the needs are and the community needs. Because I will restress again on what I just said before about the affordability really. We can build the most amazing stuff, but if they're not affordable, then we're not really serving anybody here. And again, when you speak about Asia Pacific, there is a lot of privatization at the moment happening and it's just not public. all as we we're used to it so yet business understanding, critical thinking, would say, is absolutely one of the most important capabilities.
Juan Martinez: Yeah, I guess you're looking at the future. I think the strongest asset owners or ⁓ local government councils in this case for us won't the ones that have better ⁓ systems better technology, but I think they're going to be the ones that have organizational knowledge, organizational memory, because that will better decision support and also better alignment between strategy, delivery and operations, integration between teams and strong capabilities.
Theresa Wells: Yeah. So I'm going to, peel us back a tiny bit. Just if we were to all reconvene in two years time, what do you really hope that we're talking about?
Juan Martinez: think ⁓ in a couple of years, hope we're no longer talking about these, all these as a separate initiative, digital engineering, information management. ⁓ I hope ⁓ that the organizations as owners, naturally sort get into it and becomes the new norm. This is how we work, this is how we do it. That success, think it would mean that information is simply embedded into operations, planning, governance, and the conversation that we're having is shifted. It's shifted from fixing foundations ⁓ to broader value, ⁓ resilience, services improvement, beta decisions, making use of operational insights from the structure data foundation that we created. I hope that the charts, the mutate into as resource rather than still trying to fix the foundation.
Theresa Wells: Yeah, totally agree.
Asem Zabin: yeah I agree with you Juan how we're using data and insights to get more ⁓ we're using agents to get more value from it than what we are getting now. It will be really interesting to listen to this in to use time. I hope we're not talking about the same digital engineering information management the way we are doing it today. mean, that will still probably there in some way or shape or form, but ⁓ I hope it's not the same ⁓ and trying to convince people that this is the thing that you need to do.
Juan Martinez: you
Theresa Wells: I think we would all agree with that. a little part of me that worries me well because what learned so far is this ⁓ takes ⁓ and people need to be patient. is ⁓ not and rainbows and a magic wand and everything will change tomorrow. So ⁓ people doing the work, keep investing in it and hopefully we're talking about more of what was made possible by ⁓ the and the change. Thanks very much for your time, both of you. I really appreciate you joining us on Transform, our DHG series, ⁓ wrap us up there.
Juan Martinez: Thank you very much. a pleasure.
Asem Zabin: Thank you. Thanks Reza. Thanks, Kuan.
Tash Wilson: You've been listening to Transform by GHD. Big ideas, real impact. Welcome to Transform, tomorrow's thinking today. Real conversations on the innovation shaping businesses and our society.
Theresa Wells: I guess the problem that sometimes doesn't get enough airtime is we already have about 90 % of the assets that will run for the next 100 years. So how do we keep them in a good state of repair? And it isn't just a maintenance question, it is a strategic one as well. Because if we allow them to fall into a state of disrepair, we're undermining the very outcomes that all the new investment is supposed to support. So the industry has known this for a while. There's been a massive focus on to create digital asset data ⁓ there's been a significant push towards it. standardization of that has come around in terms of helping us understand how we manage information. ⁓ everyone's looking towards ⁓ better records of their asset data, holding more information. ⁓ that's great. But what's evolved from is it's a big problem of fragmentation because the people doing it are sort of spread across the industry. So it might be consultants or contractors, ⁓ but the asset tends to just get what comes over the fence to them. So there's a real lack of centralisation and of that information. But it means that they're drowning in the data, but they still don't actually have the information they need to make, the right decisions and to prioritize spend in the right way and to really understand the state of their asset. So today's conversation is about that gap and what closing it really takes. We're going to look at what Tauranga City Council and GHD have learned doing this type of work together But we also want to just take a look to the horizon as well. ⁓ What does the future look like for asset owners APAC, across the globe when we actually get this First of all, I to welcome our two panelists and welcome Juan Martinez from Tauranga City
Juan Martinez: Thank you, Theresa, nice being here.
Theresa Wells: And welcome to Ask Some Simon from GHD.
Asem Zabin: good see you both.
Theresa Wells: Fionn, I want to start with ⁓ You sit in the in one of our in New Zealand, and you've got really a and view of what's changing for asset owners across ⁓ New Zealand and across APAC as well. What's going to drive in the fundamental changes?
Juan Martinez: Yes, thank you, Theresa. I think one of the most fundamental changes is expectation on local government. ⁓ governments today are expected to do more, produce more, complexities, more scrutiny, more questions. ⁓ at the same time, they expected to do that with the same or fewer resources, the other side, also got an issue that is aging infrastructure across the sector. The growth, pressure, people, population, related risk, compliance requirements, community expectation, level service. what we can say is that there is actually what is driving the changes is the need to make better decisions with better information. that is really pushing councils ⁓ local government to modernise not just technology, but capabilities behind how they manage information, know, assets, operations. It's not just about technology, but it's the capabilities are sitting behind those processes.
Theresa Wells: I We see a lot of that ⁓ pressure coming from central government as well. I Bishop, his minister for spending lot time days talking about his are around how we our more effectively.
Juan Martinez: Mmm.
Theresa Wells: I think you sort of touched on a point there that sort of spin to you, Assam, and the capabilities that the organizations have. And we can't just magic those out of thin air. So ⁓ in your opinion, what capability gaps did you see that asset owners are struggling with the most as this change accelerates?
Asem Zabin: Yeah, it's probably more challenging in the recent years with AI exponential transformation that's happened over the last few years. What has happened for asset owners is been building over the last or forever, right? Previously we lacked information, and what's been happening recently is because of that there was a big push to get more information about your assets. ⁓ And so we getting a lot of really good information. we're getting a lot of data. ⁓ While this sounds really amazing, The problem now with the asset owners are facing is that it's actually the other way around. Everyone thinks they have data. No one has You actually don't have access to the right information. that is probably problem number one. And The research shows There is a really... good amount of time spent on finding the right information and that does take time from you as a professional. That takes time from your business processes. So 20 to 30 percent of your time is spent on finding the right information. that's again, that's really a lot of time of you wasted on looking for the right information. So that's one thing that owners are struggling with. And then the second one I would say is managing knowledge. whole revolution we're going through with the digital revolution or the AI revolution, ⁓ moving away from intuition experience. So the way we used to know things, again, as asset owners, whether it's rail or or whatever we're looking at, the knowledge was always in the intuition ⁓ and institutional And now it's kind of getting democratized. ⁓ That is a big change for the industry as well. And really building on what Juan was saying, there is always budget constraints. So how do you do more for less while still need a of the capability built behind you. there is that. And then how do you engage with the supply chain? ⁓ on the organization, you are used to getting a lot of your delivery from the supply chain.
Juan Martinez: agree with you 100 % RMA. when you were talking about data in the concept that everyone has, but everyone doesn't have data. true value for the organizations win operations. start making decisions. They get insights from the data. That's when it becomes valuable. That's when you're translating value for money, doing more with less. I guess the key there, when we talk about ⁓ and capabilities and all that stuff, building that structure, takes a lot of discipline. and governance. And without those layers, you can build something, but you're not making it sustainable for the longevity.
Asem Zabin: Yes.
Theresa Wells: I think some of the areas you're touching on, capability gap seem to be ⁓ that the industry is all moving at different as well. you describe ⁓ some people capturing lots of ⁓ organizations collecting of data, but not really the information they need because ⁓ they're maybe not moving at the same speed terms of understanding how they capitalize on the information they're collecting. And then looking after it as an asset, you can have touched on as well.
Asem Zabin: Yes.
Theresa Wells: not maybe realizing that that's something that just like a physical asset actually does need to be maintained as well. within organizations, you don't quite have those roles and responsibilities set out. So perhaps it's a lack of governance or or an understanding of how you should actually treat this particular asset, which is your asset data.
Juan Martinez: Mmm.
Theresa Wells: So we wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about what happened at Tauranga City Council and what really made you as infrastructure owners take a step change into realising that you needed to build your own capability. Before we sort of talk about the actual work, we probably should give you a little context of where Taorung is in the world, what a city council does here in New Zealand. So I'm to pass over to you, Juan, to talk about that first.
Juan Martinez: Yeah, thank you, Derisa. Yeah, Torrenga City Council sits in the east coast of the North Island New Zealand. Torrenga City is around at the moment is hosting around 160,000 people population-wise, to give you bit of the size of the population. And it's growing in the last 10 years. City Council It looks after assets or critical infrastructure within the city. ⁓ could divide them in three areas. One is transport, roading, the one is water, and the other one is buildings. I myself, I within that water pillar, that ⁓ So most of the work is being done within that work activity. I guess I'll a of around when we started this work, The main challenge the time for us ⁓ was sitting different systems, different teams, different formats. ⁓ It really hard an operational point of view to a view maintenance, for operations, for planning of those assets. As a consequence of those silos, creates quite a bit of friction when it comes to decision making. It makes it difficult, takes more time. ⁓ spend much longer trying to find information, checking, reworking Instead of ⁓ using data, the information that is available on those, we confidence, I can trust this. I guess everything comes to, can I trust? this data to make an operational decision. for us, from a water perspective, the aim was to build a strong foundation so information could be more reliable, it could be more connected, and more useful not just at a project level, but on the asset lifecycle.
Theresa Wells: you just described the same problem that probably every infrastructure asset owner has in New Zealand and maybe around the world. Was there anything sort of just tipped you over the edge?
Juan Martinez: I guess it down to ownership, how much you want it, how much you want to change it. That's what it comes down to. And once I believe ⁓ that the side of you looking after your asset, the asset management side, is something that gets overlooked. And the project delivery more time on the radio. right on the operations side of the asset. when you think about the asset life cycle, you might spend one year, five years building an asset, but you're going to spend 20, 50 years maintaining that asset, operating the asset. And so realizing the value, comes to many different things. ⁓ ⁓ that's more an organization and having the right leadership in place, ⁓
Theresa Wells: always been impressed that you did, obviously, and we have seen others sort of following your footsteps, which has been great. ⁓ Tauranga has been well ⁓ as a leader in this space, particularly for councils in New Zealand. let's kind of get to the stuff. there was a vision, we know some of the and problems and you actually went on a journey to do this. Asm, you were working right alongside Juan and the teams over there. your opinion, first of all, and then can pass it to you as well, Juan, what does the work enable now that just wasn't even possible before?
Asem Zabin: Well, I think Tauranga City Council did is they really took a step back and focused on the foundation, trying to build that ⁓ data right? Trying to build data literacy in the council, try to build a better understanding of the importance of asset information and getting it right from the capital And that's really key. What it enables is there is a change roles internally. So rather than us spending time on finding information as the asset information team or the asset managers, ⁓ role has become into becoming more of a custodian ⁓ the asset information, And also, ⁓ it means that we can report ⁓ better for the community because at end of the day this is what the council's job is. So, if want to report really well on the community, you can predict things before they actually happen because as Juan said in the beginning of this you want that a driven decision. do ⁓ you to know when are you going to replace this pipe before it's too late or when is this system going to fail before it's too late? ⁓ and you can do this with really good asset data. So that's really what enables everybody wants to do AI and we really love AI. We want to do more of that to an extent. at the same time, you want to get your foundation right. So ⁓ this really what it enables. So before you go to the shiny stuff, it will enable a lot of... Basically, you're building the really good foundation and then once you get the right foundation, you can build whatever you want on top of it. I'll pass it to you, Juan, if you want to add anything there.
Juan Martinez: It's not a pretty comprehensive ascent, but it basically sets the foundation for a more connected and useful view of how we deal with information. instead of relying from data points in time or manual interpretations, we call now a stronger foundation for consistency, traceability, cross-team. collaboration visibility. If you look at that, that turns into ⁓ operational awareness. And that is the key that the organization from project delivery, from planning, from asset management brings the operational awareness, the real value, the real cause of maintaining that asset. we start better aligning between and operations. If we can just do that.
Theresa Wells: I think you just described the dream.
Juan Martinez: exactly right. So we can just, and I'm talking about foundations in here, right? That we set in the foundation for those things. And I guess if you look forward, the idea is by bringing that operational awareness to the delivery and you can align them, then you build a stronger confidence in decisions that need to be made from day zero procurement.
Theresa Wells: It's a really good point and it kind of goes back to your first when you were talking about having lots of data but not able to do as much as you would like with it. think that the understanding that the data you have is data you can use, that it's accurate, it's complete, it's current, it's as important as having as much information as possible at your fingertips. You know, I've definitely heard other councils describe and other asset owners just describe it. We've got lots of information, but we don't really know if it's I having that kind of discipline around the of information as much as we do around our physical assets is it's going to be gold.
Asem Zabin: I was talking to someone yesterday here in Sydney about this. The other indirect answer to your question, Tracey, is if we look at what Toranga City Council is doing at the moment, they have pretty much like a digital twin. They are scanning almost every single that they have in the water space at least there is a lot of things that's happening there and That is an indirect result that was not obviously the plan when you start this product but once you've improved the capability and once you do that capability uplift then the maturity arises ⁓ in ⁓ council and so innovation comes to play so ⁓ this is kind of things you want to see for your community because what they're trying to do is more predictive things. So the stuff that Juan is doing with the operational digital twin is exactly that. So that's one of the things that I really love watching is the indirect result of that is now you've got more mature, more progressive who want to do more for the community.
Theresa Wells: Yeah, I love that because it actually says, well, you've almost moved the dial on the expectations that people have around what they can do with a digital asset now. And one, you're rising to the challenge of that by having the models themselves there as well. And I know talking to other councils, And like touched a bit on obviously what's changed and how it's changed and really sort of driving these expectations. But We know that it wasn't easy, right? We didn't start in, you know, last month and we're here, ta-da, already. It was, from what I remember, October 2021 that we kind of started this journey. it's been a long journey of change and lots of, challenges along the way in terms of, explaining it to people and making them be able to understand why it would make a difference to them. Why did they have to change rather than expect it? perhaps a consultant or a contractor will just do things differently and we'll get the same magical outcome. it might be just worth touching on what needed to change internally. And that's just right across people and processes that you have and governance, not just technology, what needed to happen to make this successful.
Juan Martinez: Yeah, that's the key to make it sustainable that it can stay over time. And I guess exactly right. It's not about technology. Definitely not. That should be the last thing. the technology, tool itself is not going to make it stick, not going to make it stay around for too long. I think it's more about the combination of clear ownership the better defined processes. governance that give the continuity, know, it provides the work with the continuity that it needs. Without the clear ownership, the defined process and governance, becomes really difficult for the longevity of it. And I guess internally for us, the or the change, it started when people started seeing ⁓ the as an operational asset. not just as an output of a project, I think if people need to take ⁓ something away from this it's the to bring those things closer. Why? Because then there can be accountability around data quality decision use from a project delivery, from a genesis of a planning initiative. Then the capability to sustain all of these things, they become sustainable on their own. Then they become the norm, rather than experimental, rather than a proof of concept, rather than a pocket here and there. It's really hard without the right governance. and ownership to make it sustainable because otherwise you start developing all of these different camps here and there that when you try to join them together going to struggle big time. ⁓ us there was a lot of change management, Developing those things that we do now together. Bring them, ask them. What does it need to change? How makes your life, your day to day easier? Better, more productive, But bring them along the journey, develop it together. Collaboration.
Theresa Wells: Mm. Very much. Yeah, I think everyone's got to see themselves in the success of the initiative before they're to put the hard yards in. if you take this work to ⁓ others in terms of trying to help them ⁓ leverage Tauranga and others in this space are doing, there anything you would be saying
Juan Martinez: you
Asem Zabin: Well, I think as Juan said, ⁓ and Teresa, you know this very well. We've done before ⁓ and we tried different ways and we spoke to different clients ⁓ what we see is clients and consultants big this really beautiful decks that tells you a really good story of where are we starting and where are we going to end up. oftentimes it just stays where it was delivered. What Toronga City Council did, and Juan already touched on this, is having the right vision. But also what they did did the bottom-up approach, which is find the project. So you really want to run them both together. You want to have your vision, plan, your roadmap. But at the same time, you are showing some quick wins. You started somewhere. Just do the mahi, as what we say in Tireo, which means do the work, really. So that's kind of why, if you want to start this one, then another organization really is, I would say, do kind of both of them at the same time. want to have a plan because that's what your leadership team want to see. They want to trust you on this, but at the same time, the leadership team want to see results. So before they lose hope it, you want to show them some outcomes really, basically.
Theresa Wells: 100 % yeah, I think that's really good advice for anyone in terms of how you get started and what you often say, just get started.
Juan Martinez: Just cracking into it 100 % and that is exactly right. You need to get some wins, quick wins that you can show and gain the trust once again. You know, that the trust that the leadership team and the sponsorship team, the executive team will say, hey, yep, we can back that up and we can become a BAU eventually. But you need to do both, you know, the bottom up and strategic thinking at the same time.
Theresa Wells: Yeah. Thanks, team. That's been a really good perspective what do you need to do to really make it stick? I know I wanted to look a little bit into the future. So get your kind of crystal balls out and do your best. When we're talking about asset owners across APAC and what their future looks like, give us your take on what does it look like into the future? What are we dealing with? It's uncertain, so no one's going to come back in two years and say you were wrong.
Juan Martinez: Mmm.
Theresa Wells: can you see already on the horizon and how do you think the work you've done is going to help us respond to that?
Juan Martinez: I what we're here is decision ⁓ resilience. ⁓ You the to with confidence when those conditions change. No one knows what's going to happen in the future. So building decision resilience is I think that's what we're doing and that's what we can take away. We are also improving visibility, consistency. We are...
Theresa Wells: Hmm.
Juan Martinez: providing confidence in the underlying information, the information that we use to make decisions. And when things change, when the environment becomes a bit uncertain, I believe that as any asset owner, especially on critical infrastructure, need to be able to assess options quickly, understand And I guess if we can have stronger information capabilities, that will give us better platforms for resilience. Then we are becoming less dependent on fragmented siloed knowledge, information, manual work arounds, teams that are working in separate areas. We start getting more that cross pollination. So decision resilience, I think, is the key one.
Theresa Wells: that. That's such a good expression. And I think when you live in New Zealand where we've got you know, natural disaster type events, it's a constant kind of to changing environments and changing state of assets as well.
Juan Martinez: Mm. going back to the point before, as you were making about the AI and technology itself, there is an expectation that organizations today make that decision quicker, that the people quicker, they take action quicker, especially with natural disasters. ⁓ in Tauranga, we are exposed to tsunamis, ⁓
Theresa Wells: Mm.
Juan Martinez: It comes with risks, so we've got to be prepared, we've got to be resilient, know, as a society, as a community, as a country.
Asem Zabin: place. ⁓
Theresa Wells: now that you've moved to Australia, is there a perspective would bring in terms of asset owners over there? I mean, love Juan's expression and I would expect that ⁓ has a resonance. But is there anything specific you're already picking up on from Australia?
Asem Zabin: 100 % I was at a conference and of actually, one of the takeaways that ⁓ water systems that are resilient, if they are not affordable, they're not going to survive politically or financially for the next generation. So if you think about the future, affordability is very important. At least it requires a holistic thinking about engineering, economics, outcomes, environmental sustainability, all together, ⁓ in silos. And then the other thing that comes to my mind is scale and capability, same as New Zealand in Australia, the small fragmented simply could not build specialized expertise. ⁓ the modern water systems whether climate adaptation, digital systems, regulatory systems, and partnerships will be absolutely key us to keep going into the future. that is definitely something that comes to my mind. And then again, we kind of started by talking about this, but it does really come to using what we have today in terms of relying on really good information rather than the intuition that we have or the knowledge or the experience that we have. It's just not going to get us to the next 100 years, really. that data-driven optimization is kind of almost here, really. So how do we use data really to... two more with less,
Theresa Wells: You touched on so many good points there. Our infrastructure assets don't end at council boundaries. don't end with a particular asset type. They're all so interconnected. ⁓ ⁓ think the point on collaboration, but also that standardization and what it actually means for ability to make holistic decisions across ⁓ all facets that you mentioned there that's what's going to drive it. And that's probably, as you described, what's actually needed for the future as well. And one of the points you touched on was not having the scale, particularly in New Zealand, we're a long, skinny country with people all over the country. And Auckland being the biggest is still only one point six million, which is probably tiny in comparison to most cities around the world. But it brings its own challenges because you're rate based. Pairs are spread out across quite a distance and obviously that brings an economic challenge on keeping resilient assets. of the things we're looking at is consolidation of water entities and into bigger larger entities to try and give it a bit more scale and a bit more understanding of how you manage that precious resource ⁓ ⁓ larger geographic ⁓ with larger rate pair base to help sustain the right infrastructure the future. So I 100 % agree with all your points. Asam, you touched on a lot around ⁓ the that we need to think for the future. In order to do that, what capabilities are going to matter most? What do we need to develop within our people and our processes that will actually help support that type of future paradigm?
Asem Zabin: if ask this question probably five, 10 years ago, there are a lot people who tell you data science and programming absolutely be key. ⁓ And it's funny, because if you this question today, it's a changing. I think it's what capability as needed is... having that kind of holistic understanding of what is required, really strategically about... the business really, understanding what the needs are and the community needs. Because I will restress again on what I just said before about the affordability really. We can build the most amazing stuff, but if they're not affordable, then we're not really serving anybody here. And again, when you speak about Asia Pacific, there is a lot of privatization at the moment happening and it's just not public. all as we we're used to it so yet business understanding, critical thinking, would say, is absolutely one of the most important capabilities.
Juan Martinez: Yeah, I guess you're looking at the future. I think the strongest asset owners or ⁓ local government councils in this case for us won't the ones that have better ⁓ systems better technology, but I think they're going to be the ones that have organizational knowledge, organizational memory, because that will better decision support and also better alignment between strategy, delivery and operations, integration between teams and strong capabilities.
Theresa Wells: Yeah. So I'm going to, peel us back a tiny bit. Just if we were to all reconvene in two years time, what do you really hope that we're talking about?
Juan Martinez: think ⁓ in a couple of years, hope we're no longer talking about these, all these as a separate initiative, digital engineering, information management. ⁓ I hope ⁓ that the organizations as owners, naturally sort get into it and becomes the new norm. This is how we work, this is how we do it. That success, think it would mean that information is simply embedded into operations, planning, governance, and the conversation that we're having is shifted. It's shifted from fixing foundations ⁓ to broader value, ⁓ resilience, services improvement, beta decisions, making use of operational insights from the structure data foundation that we created. I hope that the charts, the mutate into as resource rather than still trying to fix the foundation.
Theresa Wells: Yeah, totally agree.
Asem Zabin: yeah I agree with you Juan how we're using data and insights to get more ⁓ we're using agents to get more value from it than what we are getting now. It will be really interesting to listen to this in to use time. I hope we're not talking about the same digital engineering information management the way we are doing it today. mean, that will still probably there in some way or shape or form, but ⁓ I hope it's not the same ⁓ and trying to convince people that this is the thing that you need to do.
Juan Martinez: you
Theresa Wells: I think we would all agree with that. a little part of me that worries me well because what learned so far is this ⁓ takes ⁓ and people need to be patient. is ⁓ not and rainbows and a magic wand and everything will change tomorrow. So ⁓ people doing the work, keep investing in it and hopefully we're talking about more of what was made possible by ⁓ the and the change. Thanks very much for your time, both of you. I really appreciate you joining us on Transform, our DHG series, ⁓ wrap us up there.
Juan Martinez: Thank you very much. a pleasure.
Asem Zabin: Thank you. Thanks Reza. Thanks, Kuan.
