Between Structure and Collapse | TLC & Developmental Theory

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Kind: captions
Language: en
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What's up everybody and welcome to
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another episode of the Yours Truly
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podcast. I'm your host Christian Baxter
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and today I'm sitting down with someone
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who wandered into my world the way most
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of the best people do through a live
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stream and a random comment and then
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suddenly we got to talk in a callway at
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Midwest Estuary where we had a really
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interesting conversation. His name is
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Riel Thirstston. And if you spent any
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time in the TLC space, you might have
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seen him pop up on Luke's live streams
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over in Grail Country or on his own live
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stream he started on Fridays the cosmic
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naval the internet.
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I got to connect with Riel in Meet Space
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this year at Midwest Estuary in Chicago.
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And as I was filming a quick mini vlog,
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he said something that lodged itself in
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my mind. Whatever TLC is, it's on the
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bleeding edge of culture. Not in the
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tech startup sense, but in the human
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sense. The place where conversation,
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meaning, and identity get reworked at
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the speed of trust instead of at the
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speed of algorithm. When someone with 20
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years in orthodoxy, a jazz musician's
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intuition, and a developmental
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philosopher's lens says that, you pay
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attention. Riel carries the kind of
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biography that makes sense of why he
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fits here. Raised in a six-sided house
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by San Francisco hippies, named after a
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star, became Baptist, found orthodoxy,
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built songwriting communities in Austin,
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and now he spends Fridays cultivating
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the digital equivalent of a house
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church. He sees the internet not as an
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escape, but as a new kind of commons,
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one where people who would never meet
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otherwise end up doing something like
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spiritual formation together. This is my
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third conversation with him. And at this
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point, we're comfortable enough to do a
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little TLC naval gazing, the good kind,
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the cosmic kind. If you've ever wondered
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what TLC looks like through the eyes of
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someone who's been formed by liturgy,
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improvisation, failure, community, and
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the long slow burn of tradition, this
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will be that conversation. Don't forget
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to like and subscribe for the channel
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influence. And if you want to support
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the work, consider becoming a channel
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member. Link in the description. And if
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you're listening on podcast, maybe leave
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a review to let the world know we exist
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here at yours truly. So, let's get into
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it. Here's my third conversation from
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the Cosmic Naval in Austin, Texas. It's
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Riel Little Dear Wind Song.
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Hi, this is Christian Baxter and [music]
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you're listening to yours truly, a place
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we go to think out loud.
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>> [music]
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>> We just uh Riel's laughing because we
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just did some Orthodox chant backstage.
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[clears throat] It's not very often I
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you know get on with another musician,
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you know, like in his studio, the Cosmic
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Nabal. Is that the actual name for it?
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Is that what is that the name of your
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studio?
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>> It is now. I have to say, Christian,
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when you introduced me a year ago about
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on my first um rando, [gasps]
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you had picked up on
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the cosmic naval, the driftwood fort on
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the sandy beach of the cosmic naval.
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This funny line that I just tagged into
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a blog post I put out there trying to
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explain that I'm weird
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in a playful way. And you, I think,
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introduced me
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as,
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you know, the one with the driftwood
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fort on the cosmic naval.
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[clears throat] And I, it just stuck.
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Like I I've I've used the word cosmic
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naval a lot in my life, but I've never
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come out in public
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>> and used it. And you kind of gave me
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permission with your hyper
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encouragement, which I appreciate about
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you.
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>> Oh, wow.
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Um,
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that's interesting
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how these things work, how like um
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influence, meme,
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you know, all that kind of stuff and
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creativity
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uh how that all kind of
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I don't know and things hit and things
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stick or they don't. And uh it's funny
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because people just started calling me
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Sebacks, you know, because it's easier
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to say than Christian Baxter. I've got
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an X in my name. Like
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>> Yeah.
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>> And my name's It's a It's like it's
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really crunchy name. Like every time
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Paul says my full name, he's like
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Christian Baxter.
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>> And so most people just say like Cbacks.
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>> Yeah. It uses the full range of your
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mouth and like every sound you can make.
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It's
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>> Yeah. And uh I dude this was crazy. So
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you know I work with the if you're not
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working with chat GBT or you pretend
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like you're not but you are you know
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like so we've been using chat GBT and it
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um I noticed on the thing on the upper
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bar today it said hey Cbacks how are you
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doing today?
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>> Oh god.
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[laughter]
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>> It picked up on it somehow. you know,
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dumping transcripts in there and all
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this kind of stuff, but it's like uh
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yeah, it's it's strange what's in a
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name. And that was that was uh what PJO
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at the conference at the Midwest
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Esquaryy Conference when someone I can't
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remember
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what is this little corner of the
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internet and he said, "Well, let's you
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know, look at the name."
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>> And so that you know, we're already kind
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of circling that in our two estuary
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right now. What's the Oh, the name
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Cosmic Naval and Influence and and so,
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you know, uh there it's funny because I
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guess when I first started playing in
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the corner, people were saying, "Oh,
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look, it's the naval gazing. Uh we're
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talking about it."
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And I think I I said this in the intro,
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but it's um well, you know, appropriate
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because your as you've your the name of
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your Friday live stream is like I what
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is it the cosmic it's something cosmic?
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>> It's the cosmic. Well, it's been
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evolving. Like here's the thing. It
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started out
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>> they're looking like more more dummy.
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It's really fun to watch.
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>> Yeah. [laughter] Um it's it started out
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as you know live from the Earth Dome
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with in the Cosmic Naval and then um
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live at the Cosmic Naval and then now
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it's [snorts] I've been kind of pitching
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it as cosmic naval gazing with Riel
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because so there's something and this is
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how I this is part of my art process is
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I
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so I do metal art. Um, I'm a metal
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artist.
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>> So, I have a scrap pile in the back of
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my yard with just a bunch of stuff that
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I've collected from back alleyways.
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Anywhere I see junk, I will pull over
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and see if it's metal and throw in the
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back of my truck. And so, I have this
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like little incubator of possible items
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that I could turn into metal art. and
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it's all junk, but something will stand
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out as like usable. And then I just pull
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that thread and often times, you know,
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something will be bent in such a way and
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then I'll unbend it and I'll be like,
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"Oh, this totally works." And I think
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like the the term naval gazing, it's
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it has it's a cliche. It has all of this
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baggage with it, but there's something
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actually, I think, beautiful about it.
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Um,
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and if you just put the word cosmic
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before naval gazing, suddenly it's it's
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takes on new meaning.
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>> Well, that's you. I was like totally we
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you know you already mentioned like
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doing the rando with you and then you
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went on Substack and you wrote this
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piece and you said TLCing
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[clears throat]
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>> like and then so there's this like the
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gays and and uh seeing what that's like
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and I was like oh man look what I did
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like I that like this like I part I was
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participating in this kind of thing you
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know that was you know that sounds real
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bad in my Christian evangel oh look what
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I did like
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Oh yeah, you're not supposed to draw
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attention to any possible good thing
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that you've done.
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[clears throat]
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>> Uh so I was just with Cadell last and he
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was like I heard Boyce and Lick Land and
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they were talking about total depravity
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and I was like oh yeah we could talk
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about that. Um but beside the point the
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uh the
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yeah this what so you've come in you
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were like Christian baptized me into the
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TLC you using this religious language
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and then and you were doing
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participating in live streams and you've
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got your own kind of like developmental
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philosophy culture building work but
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then you were like I also want to play
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in this sandbox and so you started doing
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weekly live streams funny enough at the
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same time as Paul Vanderlay, which is
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like probably the worst time anyone
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could like try to do a TLC live show.
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>> Oh, yeah.
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>> But it's kind of working and and you've
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got kind of the orthodox thing, you
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know, the orthodox corner thing, too.
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So, you know, um Yeah. So, how's it
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going? What What are you What are you
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thinking, learning, feeling?
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>> It's going well. I think it's it's
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started to
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feels like it's started to pop a little
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bit more just in the last few. The first
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[clears throat] I think I started my
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first one end of January, early
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February, something like that. And I
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think Sherry came on with me and I don't
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know if I would have kept going if it
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wasn't for her coming on cuz she's been
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on there almost every single week with
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me. And it's been really lovely because
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I I I don't I can't monologue like a lot
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of y'all.
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Um, I need someone to chat with and kind
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of bounce ideas off of and finish my
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sentences when I've lost my way.
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And Sherry's great at that. Uh,
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[clears throat]
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and um, and I I mean, part of it is
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I I think maybe Well, you'd have to ask
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her what why she was drawn to my
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channel. I I wanted to create a space
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that was
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someone like me who is a non-expert
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could play and who is also interested in
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creativity and things that aren't quite
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as thinkyalkie. I mean, we get into
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thinkyalkie plenty, but I wanted to
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create a space where people could share
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something they made and talk about it
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and and and maybe that's and then that
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leads to the theological philosophical
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discussion, but when it's grounded in
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something you've made, it it gets
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personal and it's less like abstract.
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>> That was a long time ago. There was a
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conversation in these here parts that uh
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was about show and tell. Um you know I
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would hear Chad talk about it [snorts]
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>> that was with ideas.
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So, and then people might steal your
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idea that you did show and tell with.
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And it wasn't like an it wasn't an
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explicit show and tell, but that's kind
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of like what takes place. Like, oh, I've
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got this cool idea mimemetic thing that
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I saw and then it's and that's the
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thinkytalkie version of that. But like
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what you did, and I remember watching
00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:48.389
some of your very first ones. Uh you're
00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:49.990
like, "Hey, I'm gonna do like just I'm
00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:51.670
gonna put my hands on the piano and just
00:11:51.680 --> 00:11:53.670
kind of see where they go." And you know
00:11:53.680 --> 00:11:56.069
that took some kind of technical
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getting the inputs and the outputs to
00:11:58.800 --> 00:12:00.230
work just right to get you know
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>> oh god
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>> and all that kind of stuff.
00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:05.750
>> Uh and you know that and you're in kind
00:12:05.760 --> 00:12:07.350
of a studio space and you've done a lot
00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:09.269
of you know audio recording through the
00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:12.629
years as a musician and so that helped
00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:15.350
create you know build make that work in
00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.310
a way. Um but people sharing stories and
00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:21.030
poems or uh a book something they were
00:12:21.040 --> 00:12:24.629
you know uh embodying that is a is a
00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:26.230
good thing a powerful thing like you
00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:27.910
said taking it out of the abstract and
00:12:27.920 --> 00:12:29.990
in the process building something you
00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:30.949
know cultivating [clears throat]
00:12:30.959 --> 00:12:31.829
something.
00:12:31.839 --> 00:12:33.509
>> Um
00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:35.910
>> yeah the
00:12:35.920 --> 00:12:37.990
putting the head down my head down and
00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.750
just playing whatever comes to me. It's
00:12:41.760 --> 00:12:43.829
kind of absurd to do that as a
00:12:43.839 --> 00:12:45.670
performance, but I've always wanted to
00:12:45.680 --> 00:12:47.829
do it because it's it's kind of a
00:12:47.839 --> 00:12:49.829
meditative practice for me that
00:12:49.839 --> 00:12:52.069
>> I can get lost. I mean, I can I set a
00:12:52.079 --> 00:12:55.030
fivem minute timer for people because
00:12:55.040 --> 00:12:57.990
it's to spare them from me just getting
00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:01.509
lost in melancholy interpretive
00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:02.550
>> cosmic naval.
00:13:02.560 --> 00:13:04.230
>> In the cosmic Yeah. Get lost in the
00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:06.230
cosmic naval. Time kind of keeps things
00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:08.069
going.
00:13:08.079 --> 00:13:13.910
But it also I mean I am orthodox and
00:13:13.920 --> 00:13:18.710
part of what
00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:20.629
you can hear sirens even in the cosmic
00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:26.310
manifold. Uh part of part of what I
00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:28.949
like to do is create kind of liturgy
00:13:28.959 --> 00:13:31.509
wherever I am [clears throat] in life.
00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:33.030
and
00:13:33.040 --> 00:13:35.750
um starting it off with some sort of
00:13:35.760 --> 00:13:37.910
musical
00:13:37.920 --> 00:13:40.069
thing. Starting it off with something a
00:13:40.079 --> 00:13:43.350
little bit sometimes it's it's very
00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:45.110
palatable. Sometimes I'll actually cover
00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:46.230
a song,
00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:49.910
>> but I also I have kind of a preamble
00:13:49.920 --> 00:13:52.389
that talks about what the the cosmic
00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:57.269
navl is and it's very poetic. And I
00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:00.389
think what I'm trying to do on another
00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:03.030
level is create a little bit of friction
00:14:03.040 --> 00:14:07.030
for people so that I don't get weird
00:14:07.040 --> 00:14:09.110
people on who want to just dominate my
00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.069
channel. And it's a way to do it that so
00:14:12.079 --> 00:14:14.949
far, I mean, I haven't had my my channel
00:14:14.959 --> 00:14:16.629
swarmed by anyone. [laughter]
00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.389
So maybe maybe I need a little less
00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:21.750
friction, but but creating a little bit
00:14:21.760 --> 00:14:23.829
of that
00:14:23.839 --> 00:14:27.350
upfront just gets people to know what
00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:29.590
I'm about and like do they want to be
00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:31.910
playful and fun and kind of ridiculous
00:14:31.920 --> 00:14:33.990
together. You're welcome here. If you
00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:36.310
want to dominate the channel with your
00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:38.230
ideas, um you're going to have a hard
00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:40.389
time cuz I'm going to be like singing.
00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:41.990
I'm going to be like, "Oh, can you chant
00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.629
that please?"
00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:46.550
That was you. It was funny because you
00:14:46.560 --> 00:14:48.310
were on a live one of my live streams
00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:50.230
when somebody came in and did that.
00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:50.710
>> Yeah,
00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:52.310
>> we talked about that very thing, which
00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:54.230
that hadn't happened to me. I was I
00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.590
don't think at all. And then uh someone
00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:59.269
was like, "Hey, I heard about your
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:01.350
channel from so- and so." And it's like
00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:02.550
heard this was a really good place to
00:15:02.560 --> 00:15:04.389
debate and I've got all these ideas and
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:06.069
you know, I debate everything. I debate
00:15:06.079 --> 00:15:07.910
basketball. You know, it's like people
00:15:07.920 --> 00:15:09.910
are like, "Is this a bot? What is this?"
00:15:09.920 --> 00:15:11.509
You know, it's kind of a weird a weird
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:12.230
thing. Uh,
00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:14.550
>> you handled that beautifully, though. I
00:15:14.560 --> 00:15:17.350
I was really impressed, honestly, with
00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.310
the the humanity you brought to it.
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:23.030
>> Well, who knows? Maybe it was a real
00:15:23.040 --> 00:15:24.790
person. I
00:15:24.800 --> 00:15:26.550
Yeah, maybe I didn't know what to do and
00:15:26.560 --> 00:15:28.230
I was just, you know,
00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:29.350
>> hopefully I wasn't too dear in the
00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:30.629
headlights. But
00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:34.389
>> the um the thing about creating the
00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:36.389
friction, there's also there's all these
00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:38.550
things about the digital space that's so
00:15:38.560 --> 00:15:42.550
slippery and so fast. um that you do in
00:15:42.560 --> 00:15:45.509
a sense have to create friction
00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:49.110
even at the expense of
00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:53.189
like oh I like seeing number go up you
00:15:53.199 --> 00:15:54.069
know
00:15:54.079 --> 00:15:55.670
>> um
00:15:55.680 --> 00:15:58.790
>> and I was making like a little vlog the
00:15:58.800 --> 00:16:01.829
other day here in the studio and it
00:16:01.839 --> 00:16:03.590
wasn't it didn't hit on the algorithm
00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:09.509
very well and I was like uh you know uh
00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:10.949
oh do I take this off should have put it
00:16:10.959 --> 00:16:15.829
back on. Blah blah blah. And
00:16:15.839 --> 00:16:18.069
what was I
00:16:18.079 --> 00:16:21.829
the well
00:16:21.839 --> 00:16:25.189
ALS? Oh, so in it I said something about
00:16:25.199 --> 00:16:27.269
these co these podcasts and I do like
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:29.910
this preamble, right? Um that a lot of
00:16:29.920 --> 00:16:31.749
people probably just skip through or
00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:33.590
like can't you know if you watch podcast
00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:36.069
people just like get into it. But I
00:16:36.079 --> 00:16:38.069
think it's more for me honestly. I think
00:16:38.079 --> 00:16:40.949
it's like for me to help navigate where
00:16:40.959 --> 00:16:43.350
I'm at and then
00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:46.870
future me or self like and talk about
00:16:46.880 --> 00:16:49.030
liturgies.
00:16:49.040 --> 00:16:51.430
Um that's what that kind of feels like
00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:54.069
for me related to to what you're talking
00:16:54.079 --> 00:16:55.430
about like developing liturgy and you
00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:56.870
come from these two guys that like have
00:16:56.880 --> 00:16:58.629
these music backgrounds there. I think
00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:01.030
there's something like if you've been a
00:17:01.040 --> 00:17:04.710
performer or you like like I can imagine
00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:06.549
you know at whatever venue you were a
00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:08.470
house musician for a while.
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:11.270
>> Yeah, I still actually play a little bit
00:17:11.280 --> 00:17:14.246
um at this lounge that I quit
00:17:14.256 --> 00:17:15.909
[clears throat] for a couple years. have
00:17:15.919 --> 00:17:21.110
like a a way in which you prepare and
00:17:21.120 --> 00:17:23.429
then start the show and get you know
00:17:23.439 --> 00:17:25.990
like it's it's l it's lurggical you know
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:30.310
>> it it is I I the I mean the
00:17:30.320 --> 00:17:31.990
we don't have to go too far down this
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:36.390
rabbit hole but um [snorts and laughter]
00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:41.190
my main liturgy for my gig at True Lux
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:43.350
which is this kind of fancy seafood
00:17:43.360 --> 00:17:49.510
steakhouse in Austin is to
00:17:49.520 --> 00:17:54.390
get comfortable playing in the space.
00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:59.350
>> Um, and and you know, I I'm in a a room
00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:02.710
that has a volume of its own that is
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:04.390
different every time.
00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:07.830
>> And so getting all of getting my tracks
00:18:07.840 --> 00:18:11.190
I played a tracks. Oh my god.
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:14.150
Um, I I literally when I first started
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:17.830
playing with tracks, I I was watching
00:18:17.840 --> 00:18:20.470
Battlestar Galactica at the time. Have
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:22.070
you watched Battlestar Galactica, the
00:18:22.080 --> 00:18:23.029
newer
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:24.230
>> one? Oh.
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:27.669
>> Oh god, it's so good. I mean, it's
00:18:27.679 --> 00:18:31.270
basically um about
00:18:31.280 --> 00:18:35.669
humanity and machines merging. And here
00:18:35.679 --> 00:18:37.510
we are. It's scare. Yeah. Like it's it's
00:18:37.520 --> 00:18:39.029
scary. And I'm like, is this where it
00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:41.830
starts? Is it does it start with a human
00:18:41.840 --> 00:18:44.789
kind of like making love to a machine by
00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:47.590
playing music with it? And so I I'm like
00:18:47.600 --> 00:18:49.750
I'm turning into a Sylon. [laughter]
00:18:49.760 --> 00:18:52.230
>> I mean well listen dude there's so much
00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:53.909
there because I did I started doing
00:18:53.919 --> 00:18:57.510
tracks in 2013 14 with you know the big
00:18:57.520 --> 00:19:00.390
evangelical multitracks. They're like
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.430
the they have all the the highest level
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:05.830
connections to CCLI and and there's like
00:19:05.840 --> 00:19:07.990
all this marriage between here's the
00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:09.510
professionally produced tracks and you
00:19:09.520 --> 00:19:10.789
can pick you know your drums, your
00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:12.710
guitar and and it's an app and it's all
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:14.630
this thing and what you can do with it
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:16.630
now is nuts. I I haven't looked at it in
00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:18.950
several years but like
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:20.390
you know I was on the kind of the front
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:22.710
end of that and I took our whole log and
00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:24.870
I bought like all the songs that we had
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:26.310
been doing. Mhm.
00:19:26.320 --> 00:19:28.470
>> So, we were completely tied into the
00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:31.029
machine Paul Keen
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:33.909
>> and but I like looking back now and
00:19:33.919 --> 00:19:34.950
here's what I'll say there. I think
00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:37.510
there's a difference between doing that
00:19:37.520 --> 00:19:40.710
in a lounge than doing that in something
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:42.870
that's technically supposed to be sacred
00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:45.990
space. Um,
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.630
and you know, that's my opinion.
00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:51.510
>> Yeah. Uh
00:19:51.520 --> 00:19:53.413
and and
00:19:53.423 --> 00:19:54.630
[clears throat]
00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:57.590
so um
00:19:57.600 --> 00:20:01.190
you know I feel that though like I you
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:02.549
know you're plugged in you have some
00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:04.310
guide telling you verse chorus verse
00:20:04.320 --> 00:20:07.029
chorus and then you're
00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:09.909
>> um everyone's locked into that and it
00:20:09.919 --> 00:20:12.390
creates in a sense depending on your
00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:15.190
like if you're all in your monitor and
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:17.270
you're all
00:20:17.280 --> 00:20:19.190
I don't know it and is supposed to be
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:21.350
this like engagement at least in
00:20:21.360 --> 00:20:22.549
>> Yeah.
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:24.070
>> corporate worship.
00:20:24.080 --> 00:20:27.750
>> Yeah. It's that's that's I I once I got
00:20:27.760 --> 00:20:29.830
used to playing with inner monitors, I
00:20:29.840 --> 00:20:33.270
was like I never want to not have inear
00:20:33.280 --> 00:20:37.110
monitors, but then what do you do with
00:20:37.120 --> 00:20:39.750
engagement? You know, if like at in in
00:20:39.760 --> 00:20:42.549
my gig, I'm not I'm not really engaging
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:45.510
with people on like verbally, but you
00:20:45.520 --> 00:20:48.149
know, we're connecting background. Yeah,
00:20:48.159 --> 00:20:50.230
it's very much background and then it'll
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:52.630
become foreground usually when the night
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:54.549
kind of
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:56.390
fizzles a little bit and the room's
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:57.590
about half full and then people are
00:20:57.600 --> 00:20:59.430
like, "Oh, there's a piano player
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:02.870
singing over there and then it turns a
00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:06.470
little bit more performance. Um, but
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.549
there's not banter coming from the
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:10.070
stage." Um,
00:21:10.080 --> 00:21:12.789
>> and that that is a different mode, you
00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:13.270
know.
00:21:13.280 --> 00:21:13.669
>> Yeah.
00:21:13.679 --> 00:21:14.149
>> And
00:21:14.159 --> 00:21:15.270
>> Yeah.
00:21:15.280 --> 00:21:16.789
Um,
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:20.950
and I remember going inear in 2008.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:22.950
I was at, you know, I'd done these two
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.430
summers of church camps and I got my
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.310
first in-ear monitor, Sanheiser, nice
00:21:28.320 --> 00:21:30.470
blah blah, you know, like
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:33.270
>> and uh and I called one of these other
00:21:33.280 --> 00:21:35.270
guys who worked who was a worship leader
00:21:35.280 --> 00:21:37.029
for this camp organization and I was
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:39.190
like, "Oh man, dude, this is weird. I'm
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:40.310
I was I was having these like
00:21:40.320 --> 00:21:43.270
existential like questions about am I
00:21:43.280 --> 00:21:45.110
disconnected from the people, you know,
00:21:45.120 --> 00:21:47.830
like you're saying uh
00:21:47.840 --> 00:21:49.430
you know, but we had to make sure our
00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:50.870
BPMs were right.
00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:51.510
>> Right.
00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:53.270
>> Because we're using all the Hill Song
00:21:53.280 --> 00:21:55.270
United digital delay and it has to all
00:21:55.280 --> 00:21:57.590
be perfect, right? So, we're going to
00:21:57.600 --> 00:21:59.350
have the click track in our ears, right?
00:21:59.360 --> 00:22:01.270
in
00:22:01.280 --> 00:22:01.990
>> um
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:05.830
>> for me I sing differently with in ears
00:22:05.840 --> 00:22:09.029
because I can I think
00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:12.710
>> I think when I when I don't have in ears
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.750
the I can't quite hear myself as well.
00:22:15.760 --> 00:22:19.270
>> Mhm. And so I'm just pushing my voice a
00:22:19.280 --> 00:22:21.430
little too much and it I kind of blow it
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:23.270
out pretty quick.
00:22:23.280 --> 00:22:26.685
>> And so I'm I'm singing like more like
00:22:26.695 --> 00:22:28.950
[laughter] it there's just this kind of
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:31.430
raspy tired sound.
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:34.070
>> Whereas when I have in ears I can just
00:22:34.080 --> 00:22:35.510
relax.
00:22:35.520 --> 00:22:37.669
>> And when my vocal cords are relaxed like
00:22:37.679 --> 00:22:40.390
it's like spoton.
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:40.950
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well,
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:43.909
>> and I can sing in tune and crisp and
00:22:43.919 --> 00:22:47.029
>> I can imagine in a noisy lounge where
00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:48.070
you're like
00:22:48.080 --> 00:22:51.669
>> it's not really designed or concert
00:22:51.679 --> 00:22:53.270
right in a sense
00:22:53.280 --> 00:22:54.390
>> like
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:57.990
>> and and so you have to fight the medium
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:01.669
to do well what you want to do is I've
00:23:01.679 --> 00:23:02.390
had this
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:04.230
>> man brother you're saying something on
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:06.710
like multiple levels right now. Well,
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:09.190
I've had this crazy, you know, we here
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:11.110
we are geeking out about in ears. That's
00:23:11.120 --> 00:23:12.870
a conversation that nobody in the corner
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:15.190
has ever talked about on the on the
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:16.549
internet, but the thing about it,
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:19.190
there's so much there. the multitrack it
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.830
has defined so many of my thoughts
00:23:21.840 --> 00:23:23.830
related to
00:23:23.840 --> 00:23:25.909
the sacred related to John Vervey
00:23:25.919 --> 00:23:28.310
related to these things that Paul Kings
00:23:28.320 --> 00:23:30.470
North the machine like when I'm
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.870
referencing that I'm referencing my con
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:34.549
just like you made that battle battle
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.669
star connect Galactica connection to any
00:23:37.679 --> 00:23:39.350
to multittracks
00:23:39.360 --> 00:23:40.549
>> like
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.870
>> um there's something to that and the
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:47.029
uh the part about monitoring which is
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:48.630
what we're talking about monitoring
00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:49.669
voice and that that
00:23:49.679 --> 00:23:50.710
>> Yeah.
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:55.190
So I was in a you know uh this my old
00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:59.029
church was we renovated this old theater
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:01.669
right the oldest theater marquee in the
00:24:01.679 --> 00:24:04.070
state in our state actually we put all
00:24:04.080 --> 00:24:06.470
this money into it sound panels it's
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:07.830
like you know it's a theater so it's
00:24:07.840 --> 00:24:09.590
like got a little bit of that kind of
00:24:09.600 --> 00:24:11.990
sanctuaryesque thing but the whole thing
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:13.350
if you're going to be drums in here and
00:24:13.360 --> 00:24:15.029
electric guitar you it needs the the
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:18.070
room needs to be tuned right it needs to
00:24:18.080 --> 00:24:20.070
uh so you can control and then control
00:24:20.080 --> 00:24:21.909
it all digitally. Well, like it's not
00:24:21.919 --> 00:24:23.830
conducive to congregational singing
00:24:23.840 --> 00:24:27.110
because it's conducive to
00:24:27.120 --> 00:24:30.230
uh rock ensemble and you're trying to do
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:33.029
say hill song which is made for the
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:34.149
arena.
00:24:34.159 --> 00:24:34.789
>> Mhm. [clears throat]
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:38.070
>> Two is arena rock. Cold play is arena
00:24:38.080 --> 00:24:40.870
rock. That's what that is.
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:42.390
And you're trying to compress that into
00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:45.590
a, you know, a 300 person seat space
00:24:45.600 --> 00:24:48.470
that doesn't actually work to be
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:51.029
conducive. So then like now I'm in this
00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:54.230
old colonial styled sanctuary with this
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:57.190
all these hard surfaces. It's dome it's
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:01.190
got a art like a complete arch.
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:02.870
People that work at these mega churches
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.149
that I know they're from here like one
00:25:04.159 --> 00:25:05.590
guy was like that's the best room I've
00:25:05.600 --> 00:25:06.789
ever performed in.
00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:07.830
>> Wow.
00:25:07.840 --> 00:25:11.350
>> And and me and my wife like we we sing.
00:25:11.360 --> 00:25:12.950
We we don't have any monitors. We're
00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:15.110
just using the PA. Mhm.
00:25:15.120 --> 00:25:17.669
>> If you can hear the people
00:25:17.679 --> 00:25:20.390
>> and I don't really want to go back. I
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.590
don't want to go back to
00:25:23.600 --> 00:25:27.269
>> needing all that stuff to feel like uh
00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:29.430
and
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:32.549
>> feels like the right relationship with
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:34.230
the sing leading people in
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:36.230
congregational singing and it has to do
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:38.870
with the architecture. It has to do with
00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:41.029
the re reverberation of what that room's
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:43.909
actually designed for. And so anyways,
00:25:43.919 --> 00:25:45.029
those are the levels.
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:51.190
>> Yeah. Reverberation, monitoring. Um,
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:53.510
so I want to talk about a little bit
00:25:53.520 --> 00:25:55.669
more of my ritual of getting into the
00:25:55.679 --> 00:26:01.590
space. But before I do that, I I too am
00:26:01.600 --> 00:26:03.269
really
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:06.310
drawn to just if you're going to have
00:26:06.320 --> 00:26:09.669
amplification, just have be in a space
00:26:09.679 --> 00:26:12.549
where you can have the speakers behind
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:17.110
you. Sorry, the speakers behind you um
00:26:17.120 --> 00:26:19.269
and the volume at a point where you're
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:20.789
not feeding back, but you can hear
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:22.630
yourself well enough and you have a
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.110
quiet room. I during the pan right
00:26:25.120 --> 00:26:27.990
before the pandemic I was starting I was
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:31.669
like dabbling with house concerts
00:26:31.679 --> 00:26:33.510
>> um you know someone will open up their
00:26:33.520 --> 00:26:35.430
home invite their friends I'll invite
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.310
some friends and they just do a donation
00:26:38.320 --> 00:26:41.430
at the end and it was so fun and kind of
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:43.909
scary because I'm not used to people
00:26:43.919 --> 00:26:45.669
paying attention to me I'm used to just
00:26:45.679 --> 00:26:48.149
being wallpaper
00:26:48.159 --> 00:26:51.963
on the ears in the ears and um
00:26:51.973 --> 00:26:53.909
[clears throat] so I I think there's a
00:26:53.919 --> 00:26:56.789
there's a part of me that would like to
00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:58.710
get back to that at some point. I don't
00:26:58.720 --> 00:26:59.990
know.
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:01.430
>> Well, yeah, the speakers behind you,
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:04.470
that's exactly how we're doing it. And
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:05.909
um
00:27:05.919 --> 00:27:07.510
>> it's it's just crazy to be because
00:27:07.520 --> 00:27:08.630
you're hearing what everyone else is
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:09.990
hearing. You're like a part of that
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:10.950
whole thing. So,
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:11.909
>> right.
00:27:11.919 --> 00:27:14.470
>> Um so, the the thing you were saying
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:15.990
about your ritual and
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:20.630
>> Yeah. So, the way I get into
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.750
playing is I start with a track that's
00:27:23.760 --> 00:27:27.029
just it's like a jazz kind of a little
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:28.950
jazz intro song that I play at the
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:31.350
beginning of every single
00:27:31.360 --> 00:27:34.789
um night that I'm there. [snorts]
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:38.149
And it's just tracks and piano. And I
00:27:38.159 --> 00:27:42.630
have both monitors out so I can I can
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:44.390
play the song without actually really
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:46.950
hearing it. like I can I know it well
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:48.710
enough that I can just as long as I can
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:50.259
hear a snare drum every once in a while
00:27:50.269 --> 00:27:51.029
[laughter]
00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:53.190
>> and maybe a bass note, you know, I can I
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:55.830
can hear it through the the noise in the
00:27:55.840 --> 00:27:59.029
room. And then halfway through I put in
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:03.350
one ear monitor to get the level
00:28:03.360 --> 00:28:04.710
uh [clears throat] kind of synced up.
00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:08.630
And then um the next song I'll play one
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:12.070
that has tracks, piano, and voice, one
00:28:12.080 --> 00:28:14.070
that I don't really have to think about.
00:28:14.080 --> 00:28:16.230
and I'll I'll start playing with one ear
00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:17.830
in and it's really uncomfortable for me
00:28:17.840 --> 00:28:20.549
to play with one monitor in. It's like
00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:23.110
uh I'm like like falling over or
00:28:23.120 --> 00:28:25.269
something and then I put the other
00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:27.590
monitor in and I am like [snorts]
00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:31.029
I'm sailing at that point. But it's this
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:32.870
weird [snorts]
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:36.549
um kind of like I'm like meeting the
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:40.710
room on this slow kind of gradient which
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:43.669
I think is somehow connected to what
00:28:43.679 --> 00:28:46.389
we're doing with the TLC
00:28:46.399 --> 00:28:49.350
and the internet. Like there's some
00:28:49.360 --> 00:28:52.789
feedback there. There's something really
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:55.990
beautiful and attractive about being
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:58.310
part of a space that you're being heard
00:28:58.320 --> 00:29:00.470
inside of. You're not just it's not just
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:02.630
a onedirectional consumption experience.
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:06.549
It's like you're invited into this slow
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:10.149
gradient of lurking kind of coming out
00:29:10.159 --> 00:29:12.789
of the lurk in the comments, being seen
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:15.669
in the comments, then being invited on
00:29:15.679 --> 00:29:17.510
screen and coming out of the lurk. And
00:29:17.520 --> 00:29:20.549
with every step there's this little step
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:23.510
of faith that you're
00:29:23.520 --> 00:29:25.590
you're risking something and you're
00:29:25.600 --> 00:29:26.870
gaining something.
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:28.549
>> Yep.
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:31.110
Yeah, it's a uh the thing that went
00:29:31.120 --> 00:29:32.470
through my mind and I don't know if this
00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:36.230
is true, but uh was
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:38.310
you know you how how old were you when
00:29:38.320 --> 00:29:39.909
you got Facebook?
00:29:39.919 --> 00:29:42.789
>> Oh god. I think I was like
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:46.310
I was probably 23
00:29:46.320 --> 00:29:47.190
or something.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:49.430
>> Yeah. So you were part of like the kind
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:51.269
of that the very first wave, right? You
00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:51.510
know?
00:29:51.520 --> 00:29:54.710
>> Yeah. And uh
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.149
and we Luke has said this before, but
00:29:58.159 --> 00:30:02.310
like really using
00:30:02.320 --> 00:30:05.190
YouTube as social media, you know, and
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:07.430
and that is happening more and more with
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:09.909
communities and stuff, but I it's the
00:30:09.919 --> 00:30:12.950
the feeling is that I get from it.
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:14.549
>> It has it's not necessarily nostalgic,
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:16.470
but it's like this is what we were doing
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:18.789
on Facebook. Like this is how Facebook
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:22.389
actually now it's like you know family
00:30:22.399 --> 00:30:25.269
pictures and that's nice and but like
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:27.510
the original part like was oh I made a
00:30:27.520 --> 00:30:29.430
group and let's talk about this and oh
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:32.870
and here you know what's your status you
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:35.110
know it's like status oh ambiguous what
00:30:35.120 --> 00:30:37.909
are you talking about you know like oh I
00:30:37.919 --> 00:30:39.750
went to this concert oh cool how it was
00:30:39.760 --> 00:30:41.990
very it was very social
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:43.669
>> yeah now it's just an address book I'm
00:30:43.679 --> 00:30:45.110
like oh god I recognize that person
00:30:45.120 --> 00:30:47.350
what's her name what's her name like
00:30:47.360 --> 00:30:50.630
friend of friend of and then like you
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:51.110
know
00:30:51.120 --> 00:30:54.870
>> it's a profile [laughter] and um and I
00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:56.789
wonder if there's a little bit of like
00:30:56.799 --> 00:30:59.110
millennialish
00:30:59.120 --> 00:31:03.430
wisdom or like that that is at play
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:06.389
related to that. I don't know maybe I'm
00:31:06.399 --> 00:31:07.990
wrong. you know, people have been doing
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:10.630
online discourse and Discord and stuff
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:13.190
now for a long time, but uh it kind of
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:15.830
to me it hearkens back to that. And then
00:31:15.840 --> 00:31:17.990
the young people who have like gone
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.789
through the
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:24.070
massive endpoint of social media of like
00:31:24.080 --> 00:31:26.149
4chan and stuff like that get spun out
00:31:26.159 --> 00:31:27.669
of that. They're like, "Oh, what is this
00:31:27.679 --> 00:31:29.430
kind of
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:30.789
a little bit more?" It's like, "Well,
00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:32.389
this is what Facebook was like when we
00:31:32.399 --> 00:31:34.149
were 20." That's what it I don't know
00:31:34.159 --> 00:31:36.710
like um that's what came when you were
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:40.149
when you were describing that uh
00:31:40.159 --> 00:31:42.789
related to I don't know
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:44.389
>> uh but the other thing you said about
00:31:44.399 --> 00:31:47.110
the room which I you know again felt
00:31:47.120 --> 00:31:49.509
like I was wondering if you were kind of
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:52.070
meeting at first it's kind of quiet and
00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:53.430
then it kind of you know people start
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:55.430
the drinks and the meals get on and it's
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:57.029
like the volume goes up I'm gonna put a
00:31:57.039 --> 00:31:58.230
year in and then it's like kind of
00:31:58.240 --> 00:31:59.990
rockus or something and like hey it's
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:02.710
concert now and I need to really I don't
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:04.789
But the that
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:08.549
uh that journey, the TLC kind of liturgy
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:10.297
that you're talking about, you know,
00:32:10.307 --> 00:32:11.269
[clears throat] um
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:13.110
>> what I think I noticed, and I could be
00:32:13.120 --> 00:32:14.470
wrong because maybe these things weren't
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:17.110
on my radar, but there
00:32:17.120 --> 00:32:18.789
>> um
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:21.909
as people begin to engage like that
00:32:21.919 --> 00:32:24.789
more, you take a certain kind of
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:27.110
ownership over it, you know, and and I
00:32:27.120 --> 00:32:31.029
like a person I was just watching um
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:33.509
Neil Datalus and Nick Freeillian did a
00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:35.590
conversation with a guy named Zep um
00:32:35.600 --> 00:32:39.750
that just came out. And Nick had only
00:32:39.760 --> 00:32:41.029
been on Twitter, but he'd been paying
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:42.870
attention to the corner since like 17.
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:45.990
And he was a young guy, his early 30s.
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:47.750
>> And
00:32:47.760 --> 00:32:50.070
now he was on in a sense he was
00:32:50.080 --> 00:32:54.789
co-hosting Zep's rando
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:57.509
>> and he did a rando on my channel. Nick
00:32:57.519 --> 00:32:59.190
did, you know, like I don't know, three,
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.110
four months ago before Midw Midwest
00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:06.070
Estuary and uh and you watch I I oh you
00:33:06.080 --> 00:33:09.350
come out lurk
00:33:09.360 --> 00:33:13.350
you come out of the lurk and then uh you
00:33:13.360 --> 00:33:16.549
begin to take some agency you know
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:18.149
>> um and I mean even your pattern in a
00:33:18.159 --> 00:33:19.350
sense but you already kind of doing this
00:33:19.360 --> 00:33:21.909
with developmental philosophy stuff so
00:33:21.919 --> 00:33:24.149
>> it was like oh I could take I could
00:33:24.159 --> 00:33:27.110
shift some of that and do that over here
00:33:27.120 --> 00:33:28.070
seems like
00:33:28.080 --> 00:33:30.950
>> yeah I I think that's I don't know I'm I
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:33.110
what's popping up for me is like what's
00:33:33.120 --> 00:33:35.830
my next step you know I mean I I I
00:33:35.840 --> 00:33:38.789
appreciate you
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:42.070
taking respon like taking I think taking
00:33:42.080 --> 00:33:45.430
ownership in the TLC
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:48.549
taking responsibility for the TLC is
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:51.190
doing rando conversations I think that's
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.230
Luke is freaking spoton about the rando
00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:57.430
as kind of the heartbeat of this space
00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:01.029
without the randos. It's just like
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:02.710
>> it's YouTube content churn, right?
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:04.710
>> Yeah, it's just YouTube content churn.
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:06.389
But it it's like once you have the
00:34:06.399 --> 00:34:10.230
randos in there, it sparkles, you know?
00:34:10.240 --> 00:34:13.109
Um, and so [clears throat] I'm thinking
00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:14.869
about
00:34:14.879 --> 00:34:16.950
as you're speaking like what would be my
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:20.310
next step in this this gradient of
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:23.918
coming out of the lurk and coming into
00:34:23.928 --> 00:34:23.990
>> [clears throat]
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:27.750
>> um both kind of a
00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:30.230
a more responsible
00:34:30.240 --> 00:34:33.270
uh self-sacrificial.
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:38.550
Okay. cuz it it it means that I'm I'm
00:34:38.560 --> 00:34:41.349
bringing the spotlight to somebody else
00:34:41.359 --> 00:34:44.149
>> and um [clears throat] you know that's
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:46.310
sometimes hard for a performer.
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:48.790
>> That's right. The [laughter] thing the
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:51.589
thing about that it also builds trust
00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:53.669
you know these things like I watch like
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:58.390
so it's funny uh talk about this. So
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:00.390
last year my conversation with Benjamin
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:02.390
Boyce was my biggest conversation and
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:04.550
the next episode I did was rando with
00:35:04.560 --> 00:35:07.990
Afrael and I I don't no one's told me
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.710
this but I think it like my hypothesis
00:35:10.720 --> 00:35:13.109
is that it built it was a trust building
00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:15.030
thing that happened because no one he
00:35:15.040 --> 00:35:17.750
was complete rando but Paul knew who he
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:19.349
was because Paul had been estuary stuff
00:35:19.359 --> 00:35:20.950
on the northwest coast with him but he
00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:23.430
you know but he was he had like come out
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:25.190
he he came on my channel like a live
00:35:25.200 --> 00:35:27.190
stream
00:35:27.200 --> 00:35:28.790
I believe it was either the day that
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:31.030
Trump was shot or on the Trump's
00:35:31.040 --> 00:35:34.630
election. I can't remember. Um, but he
00:35:34.640 --> 00:35:37.349
comes out and then I do this rando after
00:35:37.359 --> 00:35:39.829
having like my most, you know, big
00:35:39.839 --> 00:35:42.870
thing. And Paul did like three videos
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:44.710
with Afriel after that, like three
00:35:44.720 --> 00:35:46.069
different like
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:49.910
>> like breakdowns something. And uh yeah,
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:51.510
so the sparkle like you're saying and
00:35:51.520 --> 00:35:54.150
like what is that and what does it mean
00:35:54.160 --> 00:35:57.510
to model that um and to to put time and
00:35:57.520 --> 00:36:01.190
care and attention to that and I wasn't
00:36:01.200 --> 00:36:03.270
because Neil said that he when in our
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:05.750
last conversation he was like yeah you
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:07.430
took responsibility and I was like I
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:08.710
didn't feel like I was taking here's
00:36:08.720 --> 00:36:09.990
what I felt like I felt like I was
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:11.990
trying to play the play the game that
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.109
everyone was I was trying to join in and
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:16.790
like oh he's doing that and this was
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:17.990
kind of the show and thing. Oh, he's
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:19.589
doing that. I'll do that.
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:20.470
>> Oh, [clears throat] dad can do a
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:23.030
podcast. Cool. I won't do a podcast. Uh
00:36:23.040 --> 00:36:25.030
uh PVK does commentary. I'll try some
00:36:25.040 --> 00:36:27.670
commentary. Oh, this rando. Okay, now
00:36:27.680 --> 00:36:31.349
let's Yeah. So, that was
00:36:31.359 --> 00:36:33.430
uh but at the same time, it's not like
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:35.270
it's totally altruistic. It's like, oh,
00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:37.030
this is cool. Oh, look, number go up.
00:36:37.040 --> 00:36:39.190
Oh, look, you know, engagement like it's
00:36:39.200 --> 00:36:40.790
all all
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:44.870
>> at play in a sense. Um but yeah that the
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:46.790
the I I don't know if I felt like
00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:49.589
responsibility at that point
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:52.790
uh early on but probably since some now
00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:54.470
but um
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:55.030
>> Mhm.
00:36:55.040 --> 00:36:56.630
>> I don't know.
00:36:56.640 --> 00:37:00.630
>> Yeah, modeling is so important. It's
00:37:00.640 --> 00:37:05.349
like this mimetic fuel. And um it's
00:37:05.359 --> 00:37:06.360
interesting that
00:37:06.370 --> 00:37:08.950
[clears throat and snorts]
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:11.430
you bring up the term show and tell
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.390
because there's there's a mirror of
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.589
something that's happening in the TLC
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:22.790
that I think is happening in my church.
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.510
>> Um and
00:37:25.520 --> 00:37:27.670
revolving around this this word showand
00:37:27.680 --> 00:37:33.270
tell. So I for the last
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:36.069
I mean I I think I we're coming up on 20
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:40.150
years baptis baptized in the Orthodox
00:37:40.160 --> 00:37:43.109
church and all I know is my home parish
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:45.430
like that's basically it. And when they
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:47.990
found out that I was a musician and
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:50.230
they're like oh do you want to run our
00:37:50.240 --> 00:37:53.829
talent show and I from the very
00:37:53.839 --> 00:37:55.030
beginning have always been really
00:37:55.040 --> 00:37:57.670
uncomfortable with the term talent show.
00:37:57.680 --> 00:38:01.349
It just it puts people into the talented
00:38:01.359 --> 00:38:04.069
or the not and [snorts]
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:06.150
it gives people an immediate excuse to
00:38:06.160 --> 00:38:09.109
say like, "Oh, I'm not talented. That's
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:11.750
not for me. That's like something cute."
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.470
But what I wanted to create was a space
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:17.190
where people can get to know each other
00:38:17.200 --> 00:38:19.990
in a way that they don't get to know
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:22.230
each other um [snorts and clears throat]
00:38:22.240 --> 00:38:25.430
like after church on a Sunday and just
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:27.510
share a part of themselves whether it's
00:38:27.520 --> 00:38:31.990
a story, music, a poem, interpretive
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:35.349
scarf dancing. Okay, that's safe here.
00:38:35.359 --> 00:38:40.390
And so I a friend we it would typically
00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:44.390
land on Thomas Sunday which is the like
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:48.150
a Sunday or two after Pusca
00:38:48.160 --> 00:38:50.230
and that's when we would have our talent
00:38:50.240 --> 00:38:52.230
show and so we a friend was like well
00:38:52.240 --> 00:38:54.069
why don't you call it show and tell
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:57.430
Thomas like Thomas Sunday show and tell
00:38:57.440 --> 00:38:58.470
and so uh
00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:01.109
>> here here are these wounds. Yes,
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:02.870
exactly. [laughter]
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:03.349
So,
00:39:03.359 --> 00:39:05.430
>> I don't believe are you real?
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:08.470
>> Yeah, but I I love I love the term show
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:11.349
and tell and but that comes with other
00:39:11.359 --> 00:39:12.390
problems because people don't really
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:14.230
know what it is. You know, people know
00:39:14.240 --> 00:39:18.630
what a talent show is. But um it's over
00:39:18.640 --> 00:39:22.230
the years it's developed and this last
00:39:22.240 --> 00:39:24.230
Saturday
00:39:24.240 --> 00:39:26.630
um we it kind of moved to the fall last
00:39:26.640 --> 00:39:29.030
year and for several reasons and we we
00:39:29.040 --> 00:39:32.790
put it on a Saturday. This last year, we
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:36.470
turned it into a fall festival with an
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:40.150
art marketplace, like arts and crafts.
00:39:40.160 --> 00:39:43.589
And we just started small with like 11
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:46.550
11 art booths. And you had, you know, a
00:39:46.560 --> 00:39:49.990
girl selling bracelets for $5. She
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:52.390
crushed [snorts] it. She like made over
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:53.670
$100.
00:39:53.680 --> 00:39:55.030
>> 10-year-old, you know, that's good
00:39:55.040 --> 00:39:55.510
money.
00:39:55.520 --> 00:39:56.150
>> Wow.
00:39:56.160 --> 00:39:59.990
>> I sold one of my metal art pieces. Um my
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.589
wife had her table set up. And so
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:09.030
this small little um fractal of just
00:40:09.040 --> 00:40:11.829
kind of modeling self-expression
00:40:11.839 --> 00:40:15.430
I think just grew and birthed something
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:17.990
that I don't know I would have thought
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.470
was possible at our parish.
00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:23.510
>> Um and
00:40:23.520 --> 00:40:25.109
I think that's just the power of
00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:28.470
modeling. model
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.589
>> modeling self-expression and
00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:34.470
uh and it's just it's this interesting
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:36.630
thing like
00:40:36.640 --> 00:40:38.310
I don't even know if schools do it
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:41.750
anymore, you know. Um but I I think I I
00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:44.470
remember showand tell on Fridays and you
00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:46.790
bring your cool I don't know GI Joe or
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:47.349
whatever.
00:40:47.359 --> 00:40:49.510
>> Yeah. It stays in your backpack all day
00:40:49.520 --> 00:40:50.950
because you can't play with it. But it's
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:53.910
like, yeah, this is my, you know,
00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:56.069
there's something really beautiful about
00:40:56.079 --> 00:40:59.430
that in in a way. I But then, oh well,
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:00.710
you know, what about Johnny that doesn't
00:41:00.720 --> 00:41:02.550
have a G.I. Joe, so maybe we should do
00:41:02.560 --> 00:41:05.990
show and tell anymore. And so it's like,
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:08.870
>> what do you do with that? And then um,
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:11.270
>> you know, like, and this is, but that
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:12.710
was even the temptation or not the
00:41:12.720 --> 00:41:13.910
temptation, but that was even the motive
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:15.190
to change it from talent show to show
00:41:15.200 --> 00:41:16.630
and tell. M
00:41:16.640 --> 00:41:21.430
>> well now uh there it seems to always
00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:24.550
there's this level of that um because on
00:41:24.560 --> 00:41:26.550
the the flip side of of that
00:41:26.560 --> 00:41:28.309
conversation because I consider you know
00:41:28.319 --> 00:41:30.710
I'm a I'm more of a structuralist
00:41:30.720 --> 00:41:33.349
hierarchical than I am the postmodern
00:41:33.359 --> 00:41:34.950
and I think I would consider you maybe
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:37.589
more of like kind of the postmodern like
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:39.349
I don't I could be wrong but
00:41:39.359 --> 00:41:42.550
>> I am both I am 100% structuralist and
00:41:42.560 --> 00:41:44.069
100%
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:46.069
uh non- hierarchical
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:48.950
the hierarchy. Build the hierarchy.
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:50.710
>> Yeah. [laughter]
00:41:50.720 --> 00:41:53.190
Uh and
00:41:53.200 --> 00:41:56.790
because there's this um
00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:59.670
because there is there is also the
00:41:59.680 --> 00:42:02.550
talent show that like I think about
00:42:02.560 --> 00:42:04.950
those there's like a recent one but you
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:07.589
that used to be big on YouTube like the
00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:09.829
kid that did the dance that could do
00:42:09.839 --> 00:42:11.109
like I don't know if you remember there
00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:13.270
was like this uh talent show dance thing
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:16.150
where this guy went viral I don't know
00:42:16.160 --> 00:42:17.829
20 you know almost 20 years ago
00:42:17.839 --> 00:42:18.470
probably.
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.870
>> Wow. But I w, you know, I've seen one
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:22.550
recently where a kid gets up and does
00:42:22.560 --> 00:42:25.270
Michael Jackson and he might not be like
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:27.349
and maybe nobody knew that he could do
00:42:27.359 --> 00:42:29.430
Michael Jackson and then he gets up
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:32.390
there and like you know all 400 500 kids
00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:34.870
at this school rally are just like look
00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:37.750
at this kid do this thing. Mhm.
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:39.670
>> So there is there is this thing where
00:42:39.680 --> 00:42:42.710
the talent show kind of
00:42:42.720 --> 00:42:48.230
high can highlight in a way um
00:42:48.240 --> 00:42:50.309
secret talent, you know. Um
00:42:50.319 --> 00:42:51.109
>> yeah.
00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:53.349
>> And so uh not to say that I I think your
00:42:53.359 --> 00:42:55.190
idea is brilliant, but but that there's
00:42:55.200 --> 00:42:57.510
also the where there is a there seems to
00:42:57.520 --> 00:42:59.829
be a place for that somewhere, too. I
00:42:59.839 --> 00:43:02.470
think I think you're describing like how
00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:04.230
I've
00:43:04.240 --> 00:43:06.390
>> oscillated back and forth between show
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:08.550
and tell and talent show over the years.
00:43:08.560 --> 00:43:08.790
>> Yeah.
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:11.990
>> And now I I'll literally have showand
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:15.784
tell/talent show because I can't decide.
00:43:15.794 --> 00:43:16.630
[laughter]
00:43:16.640 --> 00:43:18.870
>> And so then I just I just tell people
00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:20.550
what this is about.
00:43:20.560 --> 00:43:22.710
>> And if they say I don't have any talent,
00:43:22.720 --> 00:43:24.630
I'll be like, "This isn't a talent show.
00:43:24.640 --> 00:43:26.790
This is about our community getting to
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:28.870
know each other." And so
00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:31.589
>> there's a uh to take it the you know
00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:32.390
theological
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:33.109
>> bring it
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:37.030
>> the um and to take it Protestant
00:43:37.040 --> 00:43:39.589
>> and we need you too. Okay. [laughter]
00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:43.109
Well, I heard this is I fig I feel I
00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:45.430
feel like it's fairly common, but so
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:49.270
obviously the tension between what to do
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:54.390
with the eukarist postreformation
00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:56.069
when
00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:59.109
Calvin was trying to push against some
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:00.630
kind of version he would call like a
00:44:00.640 --> 00:44:03.030
hyper superstition, but then when he was
00:44:03.040 --> 00:44:05.190
talking to Zwingley, he was pushing
00:44:05.200 --> 00:44:07.829
against a hyper,
00:44:07.839 --> 00:44:09.270
you know,
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:11.670
the zero metaphysics.
00:44:11.680 --> 00:44:13.190
And so when he would talk to Zwingley,
00:44:13.200 --> 00:44:15.829
he would lean into this the higher
00:44:15.839 --> 00:44:17.510
version of sacramenttology. But when he
00:44:17.520 --> 00:44:19.430
was talking to Catholics, he would pull
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:21.190
back and be a little bit more
00:44:21.200 --> 00:44:23.270
memorialistic in a way.
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:28.870
>> Um and to try to find like what is that?
00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:30.950
What are we really aiming at? Like I
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:33.990
don't know. and and it's not in a sense,
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:36.870
you know, I just it reminded me of kind
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:40.230
of a dialectic in a way that um the way
00:44:40.240 --> 00:44:42.230
you that and the way that that I've
00:44:42.240 --> 00:44:43.670
heard that story about Calvin, whether
00:44:43.680 --> 00:44:45.829
it's true or not, I don't know. But
00:44:45.839 --> 00:44:48.470
>> yeah, well, I I think I don't know if I
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:50.870
still have this tagline on Twitter, but
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:53.829
um at one point I had a tagline like
00:44:53.839 --> 00:44:57.589
Riel Windong Thirstston [snorts] like
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:01.270
dancing between Eden and Escaton.
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:04.550
such a hippie. Oh my god.
00:45:04.560 --> 00:45:08.150
But I think of Eden
00:45:08.160 --> 00:45:11.829
uh as as the the kind of ultimate
00:45:11.839 --> 00:45:15.589
bifurcation of opposites and Escaton as
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:19.829
like the omega, the the unification.
00:45:19.839 --> 00:45:21.430
And somewhere [snorts]
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:25.829
in between those is where I am. M
00:45:25.839 --> 00:45:27.270
>> and
00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:29.670
>> I
00:45:29.680 --> 00:45:32.069
if if it's one or the other, I think
00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:35.030
there are major pitfalls that will or
00:45:35.040 --> 00:45:36.950
pathologies that will crop up.
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:38.550
>> Are you familiar with the term
00:45:38.560 --> 00:45:43.270
amillennial, the theological term? I I
00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:46.390
that was that term
00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:50.390
was just coming into my like awareness
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:52.150
around the time I was leaving the
00:45:52.160 --> 00:45:53.750
Baptist church because they were like
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.990
really into like the millennium and I'm
00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:56.309
like
00:45:56.319 --> 00:45:56.870
>> yes
00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:57.990
>> whoa this is
00:45:58.000 --> 00:45:59.670
>> symbolically Yeah. And then we could
00:45:59.680 --> 00:46:01.670
have a conversation about Doug Wilson on
00:46:01.680 --> 00:46:03.109
Sam Harris talking about his
00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:06.309
postmillennial or yeah post I always get
00:46:06.319 --> 00:46:07.670
post Malone when I'm saying
00:46:07.680 --> 00:46:09.430
postmillennial I always think post
00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:11.109
Malone
00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:14.069
and but the the thing about
00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:16.630
amillennialism is that it the kind of
00:46:16.640 --> 00:46:19.270
mimemetic term that encapsulated is
00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:22.390
already but not yet. That's kind of the
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:25.670
idea about the millennium is also not a
00:46:25.680 --> 00:46:27.990
strict thousand years, but we're in that
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:31.829
already but not yet space between and
00:46:31.839 --> 00:46:33.910
>> you're speaking cosmic naval love
00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:36.150
language right there. That I feel like
00:46:36.160 --> 00:46:38.710
that is I learned already but not yet
00:46:38.720 --> 00:46:41.030
from Rob Bell. That is for sure where
00:46:41.040 --> 00:46:41.990
that came from.
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:43.750
>> Yeah. Well, I mean and he was getting
00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:44.710
that. That's
00:46:44.720 --> 00:46:49.430
>> Bell. Pray to God for us. [laughter]
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:53.902
Take that, Orthobros.
00:46:53.912 --> 00:46:54.630
>> [laughter]
00:46:54.640 --> 00:46:56.470
>> You and you and Luke need to start a
00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:59.142
church together.
00:46:59.152 --> 00:47:02.150
[laughter]
00:47:02.160 --> 00:47:04.382
>> Oh god.
00:47:04.392 --> 00:47:04.470
[laughter]
00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:06.870
>> That was Do you know Did you see Luke?
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:08.790
He He put up that thing about Rob Bell.
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:10.630
It went viral on Twitter. Did you see
00:47:10.640 --> 00:47:11.670
that happen?
00:47:11.680 --> 00:47:13.190
>> Uhuh.
00:47:13.200 --> 00:47:15.829
Luke, I I was on Facebook and I got an
00:47:15.839 --> 00:47:18.950
ad from Rod Bell and Rob Bell's on a
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:20.550
bike and he's got a camera and he's
00:47:20.560 --> 00:47:22.150
walking. He's going down. He's like, I I
00:47:22.160 --> 00:47:23.910
don't know what's going on in politics
00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:26.870
and the world, but join me on my Patreon
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:28.470
and we can create our own little corner
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:32.150
of the internet. And uh and I clipped it
00:47:32.160 --> 00:47:34.470
like I did a screen. I sent it to Luke
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:36.390
because you know his he's the Rob Bell
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:36.870
guy, right?
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:37.430
>> Yeah.
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:38.950
>> And I was like, Luke, he's like, "Are
00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:40.630
you going to post that?" I was like,
00:47:40.640 --> 00:47:42.390
"Dude, I think it's yours. I think
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:46.470
you're this is this is for you to post.
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:46.790
>> Yeah.
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:50.069
>> And uh he did and it got like 15,000
00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:51.270
views. I don't know where it is.
00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:52.150
>> Oh my gosh.
00:47:52.160 --> 00:47:53.750
>> There were people like young wrestlers
00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:58.150
reform people uh like oh Rob Bell you
00:47:58.160 --> 00:47:59.990
believe this guy but there was something
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:02.630
about the angle and his classes and like
00:48:02.640 --> 00:48:04.309
the whole but he was just saying hey Rob
00:48:04.319 --> 00:48:05.510
Bell said this little corner of the
00:48:05.520 --> 00:48:06.790
internet. That was kind of his thing and
00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:08.550
it went
00:48:08.560 --> 00:48:10.870
>> boom. I I remember him talking about
00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:11.670
that.
00:48:11.680 --> 00:48:15.990
>> Yeah. And but it it's
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:17.990
>> he's an interesting he's an interesting
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.870
character. I was the thing I was most
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:23.910
impacted by was his use of media. You
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:25.829
know, I watched a few of the Numa videos
00:48:25.839 --> 00:48:27.589
and me and a buddy
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:29.589
>> and my brother were kind of into video
00:48:29.599 --> 00:48:30.950
editing
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:33.910
>> and I told my friend, his name is Marcus
00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:37.430
and uh he he was our pastor's son and he
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:39.349
had been real homeschooled in, you know,
00:48:39.359 --> 00:48:41.670
this is like early 2000s, but he got for
00:48:41.680 --> 00:48:45.589
his graduation, he got a um Canon XL1,
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:46.870
which I don't know if you were familiar
00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:49.349
with these cool cameras back in the day,
00:48:49.359 --> 00:48:51.829
but it was like it looked like a big
00:48:51.839 --> 00:48:53.750
Hollywood camera. It sat on your
00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:56.309
shoulder and it was like digital but it
00:48:56.319 --> 00:48:57.750
wasn't like high def but it was the
00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:00.630
first and he knew how to use ProTools
00:49:00.640 --> 00:49:03.109
and I was like hey I want to make a
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:06.950
video like Rob Bells I want to do um for
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:08.870
our campus ministry I want to make like
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:12.549
a a thing. So yeah I mean I was but it
00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:16.870
wasn't so much his like his uh edgy
00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:18.870
theology for me. It was like the fact
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:21.670
that he was pushing the envelope, you
00:49:21.680 --> 00:49:23.270
know, technologically or something that
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:25.030
I thought was cool
00:49:25.040 --> 00:49:27.589
>> that I I we're just going on so many
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:30.150
tangents right now, but I'm I just had
00:49:30.160 --> 00:49:32.710
this idea like what if
00:49:32.720 --> 00:49:34.950
what if we had someone in the corner
00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:36.950
with some kind of video editing,
00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:39.430
producing skills, and maybe even some
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:43.990
creative direction skills. like
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.390
do some silly movie together where we
00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:50.790
all contribute something. I don't know.
00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:53.510
I feel like it could be really fun.
00:49:53.520 --> 00:49:56.230
>> So Chad, which he kind of shut his
00:49:56.240 --> 00:49:58.390
channel down, but uh Neil did another
00:49:58.400 --> 00:49:59.829
one with David, a guy named David
00:49:59.839 --> 00:50:03.190
Busatil, and they did worldly worldly
00:50:03.200 --> 00:50:04.630
news tonight.
00:50:04.640 --> 00:50:05.030
>> Mhm.
00:50:05.040 --> 00:50:07.190
>> And it but it was all distance, you
00:50:07.200 --> 00:50:10.870
know. Um and it was like satire on
00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:12.710
people Paul talks about basically and
00:50:12.720 --> 00:50:14.790
people in the corner.
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:16.470
um the thing that I've thought about
00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:18.710
less is less silly related to such
00:50:18.720 --> 00:50:20.549
things but
00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:24.309
was like um kickstarting something
00:50:24.319 --> 00:50:25.510
because you would need if you're going
00:50:25.520 --> 00:50:27.910
to do in person it gets expensive
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:29.270
because everybody in the corner is
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:30.870
spread out across
00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:32.390
>> you know a couple of continents in in
00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:34.150
the United States but it's like
00:50:34.160 --> 00:50:37.670
>> oh well what if um you part of what is
00:50:37.680 --> 00:50:39.270
like you would pay to do this to go
00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:41.109
listen to kale but then there's also
00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:44.790
there's a a a level give a don lecture
00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:46.230
live, but someone's recording it. But
00:50:46.240 --> 00:50:47.990
then there's also estuary and then
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:51.270
there's also like vloggy stuff.
00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:52.950
Um,
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:55.600
you know, that kind of thing. Or
00:50:55.610 --> 00:50:56.470
[snorts]
00:50:56.480 --> 00:50:59.910
someone did a docu a mini doc about Grim
00:50:59.920 --> 00:51:02.390
Grizz or or it all got mashed in
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:04.069
together. Like it's like you go to his
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:05.829
house and you're like here's Grim doing
00:51:05.839 --> 00:51:09.670
his doing his uh show, you know, like
00:51:09.680 --> 00:51:10.390
>> Oh yeah.
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:14.549
>> third person. Um,
00:51:14.559 --> 00:51:16.230
you see these things like David one time
00:51:16.240 --> 00:51:18.710
he he he wrote a script, a screenplay
00:51:18.720 --> 00:51:21.829
and PVK had like nine people and they
00:51:21.839 --> 00:51:23.109
all read through it, you know.
00:51:23.119 --> 00:51:24.950
>> I saw that
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:28.630
>> and it but there are the limits of
00:51:28.640 --> 00:51:29.910
this format, right?
00:51:29.920 --> 00:51:31.270
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:32.549
>> And it and
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:34.710
>> it it was hard. I did not stick around
00:51:34.720 --> 00:51:35.910
for that one. I [clears throat] I
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:37.270
watched for a little while and I was
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:39.030
like [snorts]
00:51:39.040 --> 00:51:39.990
>> didn't hit it
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:41.109
>> didn't hit.
00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:43.109
>> Yeah. And
00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:45.670
there's I think that the corner in the
00:51:45.680 --> 00:51:47.910
sense is talking about the what's
00:51:47.920 --> 00:51:50.470
nextish stuff, but like I I have a sense
00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:52.150
that it's
00:51:52.160 --> 00:51:53.910
it either has to do that kind of stuff.
00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:55.910
You have to
00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:58.069
tell the the story has to be told now in
00:51:58.079 --> 00:51:59.670
a different way.
00:51:59.680 --> 00:52:04.230
>> Um you know the medium of documentary or
00:52:04.240 --> 00:52:05.750
like you're saying something could be
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:09.430
playful too. But um that's my that's my
00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:11.510
sense of it. I I think you're right like
00:52:11.520 --> 00:52:12.630
well what if you know he had people
00:52:12.640 --> 00:52:15.030
there are people that have that stuff
00:52:15.040 --> 00:52:16.470
but like the coordination and the
00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:18.950
finance is actually a pretty big
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:20.790
challenge but that's kind of what I
00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:23.750
think would
00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:25.270
have everybody's attention and would
00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:28.710
take the story for further um
00:52:28.720 --> 00:52:31.109
>> is is something like that
00:52:31.119 --> 00:52:34.390
>> the next step of evolution in the DLC.
00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:36.230
>> Well developmental philosophy.
00:52:36.240 --> 00:52:37.109
>> Yeah.
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:39.270
>> So what is Yeah. Why is you know when
00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:41.190
you said to me I on my vlog I was I did
00:52:41.200 --> 00:52:42.390
a little mini vlog and I was
00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:44.549
interviewing a few people at Midwest Est
00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:47.109
and you said this is the bleeding edge
00:52:47.119 --> 00:52:48.630
like why
00:52:48.640 --> 00:52:51.430
>> let's keep you know tapping on that a
00:52:51.440 --> 00:52:53.109
little bit. [gasps]
00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:55.670
>> Yeah I was actually thinking about that
00:52:55.680 --> 00:52:57.430
this morning a little bit like what is
00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:59.349
it
00:52:59.359 --> 00:53:01.670
why is the TLC
00:53:01.680 --> 00:53:03.670
the bleeding edge of culture? I mean, I
00:53:03.680 --> 00:53:09.190
I think I I kind of found this space.
00:53:09.200 --> 00:53:11.670
I I can't tell if it was purely my own
00:53:11.680 --> 00:53:13.349
personal
00:53:13.359 --> 00:53:16.069
algo or if I was like seeking something
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:20.390
out and then I ran across this. Um, but
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:22.870
you know, I work for the Institute for
00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:24.710
Cultural Evolution, which is a really
00:53:24.720 --> 00:53:25.910
unfortunate name that we're actually
00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:27.510
going to be changing, I think, pretty
00:53:27.520 --> 00:53:30.150
soon, to something more developmental
00:53:30.160 --> 00:53:32.630
philosophyoriented.
00:53:32.640 --> 00:53:35.422
Um because the acronym ICE not
00:53:35.432 --> 00:53:36.150
[laughter]
00:53:36.160 --> 00:53:39.829
not uh we've been like real dodgy with
00:53:39.839 --> 00:53:42.710
that for many years and it's like okay
00:53:42.720 --> 00:53:43.510
time to
00:53:43.520 --> 00:53:45.270
>> and you're in Austin so like southern
00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:47.030
Texas is like god
00:53:47.040 --> 00:53:49.910
>> pretty you know close to the action.
00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:53.349
>> Yeah. Well technically the institute is
00:53:53.359 --> 00:53:54.950
in Boulder but
00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:57.750
>> Oh yeah I I telecommute.
00:53:57.760 --> 00:53:59.750
>> Telecomute.
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:01.990
So I
00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:05.990
part part of my I mean part of my job is
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:08.870
just like
00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:11.750
pushing stuff out onto the internet like
00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:14.870
any kind of communication type person
00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:18.069
whether it's on YouTube cutting videos
00:54:18.079 --> 00:54:20.069
putting stuff on all the social media
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:23.190
channels emailing our group um you know
00:54:23.200 --> 00:54:24.549
facilitating a monthly [clears throat]
00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:27.589
Zoom group that we have but I'm also
00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:30.470
just keeping an eye out for where where
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:35.027
is evolution happening in our culture?
00:54:35.037 --> 00:54:37.270
[snorts] And
00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:42.309
um what I noticed is in this little TLC
00:54:42.319 --> 00:54:45.270
space is there's a lot of
00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:48.950
people who seem like they're both
00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:51.109
conservative and high in openness. I
00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:52.390
think Luke was probably the first one
00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:54.549
who put those words together, like
00:54:54.559 --> 00:54:56.069
conservatives, high and openness,
00:54:56.079 --> 00:54:58.549
conservatives. And I was like, "Wow,
00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:02.230
that's really sparkly to me." [snorts]
00:55:02.240 --> 00:55:04.309
Um,
00:55:04.319 --> 00:55:07.030
and you know, I don't know. I feel like
00:55:07.040 --> 00:55:10.309
our our whole meaning making system in
00:55:10.319 --> 00:55:12.470
our culture is kind of unraveling right
00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:15.510
now. And
00:55:15.520 --> 00:55:17.430
the
00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:19.910
the TLC it it made me think of Are Are
00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:21.990
you familiar with Kinugi art? Do you
00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:23.190
know what Kinugi art is? Yeah,
00:55:23.200 --> 00:55:24.870
>> we have one in our house.
00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:26.150
>> Okay. So,
00:55:26.160 --> 00:55:27.910
>> I'm I'm a good millennial, dude.
00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:29.990
>> Dude, you're so good. So, this is this
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:33.670
is a cup that I broke earlier this year.
00:55:33.680 --> 00:55:35.349
>> You did your own kugi.
00:55:35.359 --> 00:55:38.390
>> I had my own kugi on this cup and I I
00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:41.750
took a piece of rebar from I35 that I
00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:46.630
found, you know, and I kugied it to this
00:55:46.640 --> 00:55:48.789
mug that was broken.
00:55:48.799 --> 00:55:50.390
>> No, it's [laughter]
00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:53.430
cheap Amazon
00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:55.270
It's like epoxy with some
00:55:55.280 --> 00:55:57.510
>> like a lot quite a bit of gold actually.
00:55:57.520 --> 00:56:00.230
>> Yeah. No, I know. No, it's just I'm glad
00:56:00.240 --> 00:56:01.910
that it tricked you. It looks just kind
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:04.470
of like snot, honestly. It's it's not
00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:04.789
>> well
00:56:04.799 --> 00:56:05.670
>> high quality.
00:56:05.680 --> 00:56:08.470
>> It's a simulacum of Kugi.
00:56:08.480 --> 00:56:10.150
>> Yeah.
00:56:10.160 --> 00:56:15.190
But the the cons the the cracks are are
00:56:15.200 --> 00:56:18.630
the the main event in Kugi art. And I
00:56:18.640 --> 00:56:20.630
feel like like [snorts] in this
00:56:20.640 --> 00:56:23.990
unraveling both the left and the right,
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.430
you know, if we want to talk about it in
00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:27.030
those terms, I don't actually see it
00:56:27.040 --> 00:56:29.750
through that frame, but there seems to
00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:31.430
be
00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:35.670
space opening up. And it it feels like
00:56:35.680 --> 00:56:39.270
the the TLC this this
00:56:39.280 --> 00:56:41.829
groundless ground [laughter]
00:56:41.839 --> 00:56:45.589
is a space where people can kind of try
00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:47.270
on
00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:49.510
other ideas
00:56:49.520 --> 00:56:51.190
without the consequences of being
00:56:51.200 --> 00:56:52.870
cancelled. M
00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:55.510
>> and I think that that work used to
00:56:55.520 --> 00:56:59.270
happen in universities
00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:02.230
and now it's just so there's so much I
00:57:02.240 --> 00:57:05.589
don't know the stakes are so high that
00:57:05.599 --> 00:57:08.069
um it's it's hard to do that without
00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:11.670
getting a lot of politics and money
00:57:11.680 --> 00:57:14.710
concern involved.
00:57:14.720 --> 00:57:15.990
>> Yeah. Yeah. And especially I mean if
00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:18.390
you're doing a three-hour and
00:57:18.400 --> 00:57:20.230
>> you in there and you you say you talk
00:57:20.240 --> 00:57:21.990
for five minutes or you talk for 15
00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:24.309
minutes and but you have this
00:57:24.319 --> 00:57:26.870
opportunity to like
00:57:26.880 --> 00:57:29.910
I think the way I've described it was
00:57:29.920 --> 00:57:31.670
for seven years the conversation only
00:57:31.680 --> 00:57:33.829
went like one way and it wasn't like a
00:57:33.839 --> 00:57:35.589
like I said it didn't who do I talk to
00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:39.270
about this? I don't know. and uh and he
00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:40.950
comes, oh these people are talking about
00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:42.870
that and there you know and there's
00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:45.990
people in here talking and uh I was able
00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:48.309
to enter into a conversation that had
00:57:48.319 --> 00:57:50.069
been going on like in my mind like you
00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:51.670
said I don't know if I was trying on
00:57:51.680 --> 00:57:53.270
something but I was like having the
00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:55.430
opportunity to
00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:58.630
process and I think that you know some
00:57:58.640 --> 00:58:00.470
of the meaning stuff is that
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:02.069
>> everyone
00:58:02.079 --> 00:58:03.910
and then it can come out really intense
00:58:03.920 --> 00:58:05.670
like you're taking in all this political
00:58:05.680 --> 00:58:06.950
stuff or you're taking all this phil
00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:08.150
philosophical ical stuff. You're taking
00:58:08.160 --> 00:58:09.670
all this scientific or religious stuff
00:58:09.680 --> 00:58:12.710
and it's like more than we generally
00:58:12.720 --> 00:58:15.589
have had the ability to process, you
00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:17.829
know, like it's probably too fast. But
00:58:17.839 --> 00:58:21.190
here we are. And so [clears throat]
00:58:21.200 --> 00:58:24.710
>> um and some of the stuff like if it was
00:58:24.720 --> 00:58:26.309
you know generally in a sense downstream
00:58:26.319 --> 00:58:28.150
from Jordan Peterson like well he was
00:58:28.160 --> 00:58:30.069
talking about things online that were
00:58:30.079 --> 00:58:34.390
dicey and so but and it happened here
00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:36.950
and so kind of like okay well here's
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:38.950
where a conversation is going to keep
00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:39.829
happening. It's not
00:58:39.839 --> 00:58:40.390
>> Yeah.
00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:42.470
>> about those hot button issues from a
00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:44.309
decade ago, but
00:58:44.319 --> 00:58:48.549
>> um it's still I think part of this uh
00:58:48.559 --> 00:58:49.670
>> you know culture.
00:58:49.680 --> 00:58:51.670
>> Yeah. Jordan Peterson was kind of like
00:58:51.680 --> 00:58:54.549
the sharp end of the spear that that I I
00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:58.549
I feel like broke it wide open.
00:58:58.559 --> 00:59:04.309
>> And um I was a Jordan Peterson addict
00:59:04.319 --> 00:59:07.510
um early on and then kind of just got
00:59:07.520 --> 00:59:10.950
real uncomfortable with him after he got
00:59:10.960 --> 00:59:13.910
hyper anti-woke. But you know, we need
00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:15.829
that too
00:59:15.839 --> 00:59:18.230
>> uh to evolve. There is evolution is
00:59:18.240 --> 00:59:19.270
messy,
00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:19.990
>> man.
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:21.190
>> And
00:59:21.200 --> 00:59:21.910
>> keep going. Keep going.
00:59:21.920 --> 00:59:23.750
>> Well, and so just to give like a little
00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:26.950
bit of context to what what else drew me
00:59:26.960 --> 00:59:29.510
to the space is without going into like
00:59:29.520 --> 00:59:31.510
a full-blown 4-hour conversation about
00:59:31.520 --> 00:59:34.390
like what is cultural evolution.
00:59:34.400 --> 00:59:36.950
Maybe we do that at some point. But um
00:59:36.960 --> 00:59:39.190
there there's this idea that that both
00:59:39.200 --> 00:59:43.190
culture and consciousness evolve um
00:59:43.200 --> 00:59:44.950
through
00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:47.829
predictableish stages of development. Um
00:59:47.839 --> 00:59:50.549
we see that in childhood development
00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:53.349
like uh there's a lot of science and
00:59:53.359 --> 00:59:57.109
data around that cultural development is
00:59:57.119 --> 01:00:00.549
a little dicey because um I think maybe
01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:03.430
last time we tried to talk about stages
01:00:03.440 --> 01:00:06.230
of development in culture really dark
01:00:06.240 --> 01:00:09.349
stuff kind of resulted and you have like
01:00:09.359 --> 01:00:11.430
certain people are higher than other
01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:15.190
people and don't deserve the same rights
01:00:15.200 --> 01:00:19.589
and um you So that there's some real
01:00:19.599 --> 01:00:23.750
danger in categorizing
01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:26.710
cultures in like this hierarchical
01:00:26.720 --> 01:00:28.230
stage.
01:00:28.240 --> 01:00:31.910
Um but there within this philosophy
01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:33.990
there's this idea that these these kind
01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:37.829
of mimetic value systems
01:00:37.839 --> 01:00:41.190
they solve some problem that's happening
01:00:41.200 --> 01:00:43.910
like traditionalism solved the problems
01:00:43.920 --> 01:00:46.230
of what came before that which was kind
01:00:46.240 --> 01:00:50.390
of a tribal warrior feudal system. It
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:53.109
allowed like civilization to flourish.
01:00:53.119 --> 01:00:55.670
Um and but then you know that birthed
01:00:55.680 --> 01:00:58.390
its own pathologies and problems that
01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:01.910
modernity came and solved. And then you
01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:05.109
know modernity created its own problems
01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:07.990
of uh
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:10.870
the industrial kind of revolution and
01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:14.470
and how it tends to just pave over
01:01:14.480 --> 01:01:16.309
everything that [clears throat] is
01:01:16.319 --> 01:01:18.870
living. And that kind of gave birth to
01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:22.230
the progressive postmodern worldview.
01:01:22.240 --> 01:01:25.030
And so this but it doesn't stop with
01:01:25.040 --> 01:01:27.190
progressive postmodernism. And that's
01:01:27.200 --> 01:01:29.109
it. You know, the tendency is to think
01:01:29.119 --> 01:01:31.349
that like my value system is the end of
01:01:31.359 --> 01:01:33.430
evolution. Um [clears throat]
01:01:33.440 --> 01:01:34.549
>> the end of history.
01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:37.670
>> The end of history is me. Um and that's
01:01:37.680 --> 01:01:40.549
just kind of like human.
01:01:40.559 --> 01:01:42.069
>> But so what's coming? What's coming
01:01:42.079 --> 01:01:44.630
next? What's after
01:01:44.640 --> 01:01:48.870
um progressive postmodernism? And you
01:01:48.880 --> 01:01:49.670
know,
01:01:49.680 --> 01:01:51.917
>> is it regressive postmodernism? Is
01:01:51.927 --> 01:01:53.670
[laughter] that word?
01:01:53.680 --> 01:01:55.829
>> Well, maybe we have to go through some
01:01:55.839 --> 01:01:57.670
regressive postmodernism. But
01:01:57.680 --> 01:01:58.870
>> we are actually.
01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:05.030
>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um but uh
01:02:05.040 --> 01:02:07.109
what comes after it? Everyone's trying
01:02:07.119 --> 01:02:09.910
to def it seem not everyone actually
01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:11.910
understands this evolutionary progress
01:02:11.920 --> 01:02:13.510
progression.
01:02:13.520 --> 01:02:16.230
Um, but you hear people trying to define
01:02:16.240 --> 01:02:18.069
what's coming next. You know, you hear
01:02:18.079 --> 01:02:21.349
like metamodern, you hear metangelical,
01:02:21.359 --> 01:02:23.190
which is kind of a cool, you know,
01:02:23.200 --> 01:02:27.030
synthesis that Paul came up with. Um,
01:02:27.040 --> 01:02:29.829
you have integral, which is this other
01:02:29.839 --> 01:02:32.630
like new age spiritual
01:02:32.640 --> 01:02:36.950
philosophy that um is what this
01:02:36.960 --> 01:02:38.870
organization kind of came out of. But
01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:40.950
they they they they're actually pushing
01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:43.109
off of that or we we are kind of pushing
01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:47.910
off of this like hyper new age um
01:02:47.920 --> 01:02:50.470
spirituality uh because it's totally
01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:52.230
like not it's just it's become so
01:02:52.240 --> 01:02:57.270
non-dual that like God isn't welcome
01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:01.190
>> and that's uh I just don't I don't
01:03:01.200 --> 01:03:02.630
believe that
01:03:02.640 --> 01:03:04.870
>> you kind of have practicing [snorts]
01:03:04.880 --> 01:03:06.470
Christian is difficult to
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:08.230
>> Yeah. [laughter]
01:03:08.240 --> 01:03:10.549
But this new this new space and what I
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:12.630
what I see in the TLC, let me know if we
01:03:12.640 --> 01:03:14.630
need to go. What I see in the TLC is
01:03:14.640 --> 01:03:17.109
like like you hear people using the word
01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:19.510
steel manning all the time. And that's
01:03:19.520 --> 01:03:21.829
like one of these words that's like, oh,
01:03:21.839 --> 01:03:23.750
you're trying to you're actually trying
01:03:23.760 --> 01:03:25.910
to make a case for your opponent, not
01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:28.950
just the weakest possible case so you
01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:31.510
can come out on top, but the best case
01:03:31.520 --> 01:03:32.950
you can actually have like an exchange
01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:35.190
of ideas.
01:03:35.200 --> 01:03:36.470
Do you know the do you know where that
01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:37.990
comes from?
01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:41.029
>> That was birthed. Okay. So,
01:03:41.039 --> 01:03:44.230
uh the intellectual dark web of uh
01:03:44.240 --> 01:03:46.309
Jordan Peterson and the Weinstein
01:03:46.319 --> 01:03:49.029
brothers and Joe Rogan and Ben Shapiro
01:03:49.039 --> 01:03:55.029
and Dave Rubin, you know, like uh people
01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:56.950
in my first conversation with Benjamin
01:03:56.960 --> 01:03:59.029
Boyce, he was like, and I just am sick
01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:01.190
of that word and I still use it even
01:04:01.200 --> 01:04:03.430
though it's cringe. steel man, strong
01:04:03.440 --> 01:04:05.270
man, the argument versus straw man,
01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:06.549
right? You know,
01:04:06.559 --> 01:04:10.230
>> it was in um so Brett Weinstein was
01:04:10.240 --> 01:04:12.630
tasked with mediating the conversation
01:04:12.640 --> 01:04:17.984
between Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris,
01:04:17.994 --> 01:04:18.000
[clears throat]
01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:22.870
>> he put that term out into the cultural
01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:24.710
consciousness,
01:04:24.720 --> 01:04:26.870
>> which he put out, I want you to steal
01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:29.109
man Jordan and I want Jordan to steal
01:04:29.119 --> 01:04:31.190
man Sam. Mhm. [clears throat]
01:04:31.200 --> 01:04:33.510
>> And that had not been done in debate bro
01:04:33.520 --> 01:04:36.470
culture with Dawkins and Hitchens. There
01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:39.349
was no steel Manning. It was eviscerate.
01:04:39.359 --> 01:04:39.910
Mhm.
01:04:39.920 --> 01:04:42.470
>> TLC is still carrying this on as there
01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:44.789
comes back into a regression that we you
01:04:44.799 --> 01:04:46.789
know you see online with the
01:04:46.799 --> 01:04:48.710
conversation around Fuentes and
01:04:48.720 --> 01:04:50.630
everything like that coming
01:04:50.640 --> 01:04:54.549
>> and you know there's a new spirit that
01:04:54.559 --> 01:04:57.109
looks a lot like the new atheist spirit
01:04:57.119 --> 01:05:01.190
which is um I remember
01:05:01.200 --> 01:05:02.710
watching all these debates and you know
01:05:02.720 --> 01:05:04.950
having my own questions and doubts and
01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:07.510
all these things but I was like so you
01:05:07.520 --> 01:05:09.589
have basically
01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:11.829
you're offering me to be right. I get to
01:05:11.839 --> 01:05:13.910
be ad hominin.
01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:17.029
That's what I get is.
01:05:17.039 --> 01:05:19.510
And I never liked that. I never felt
01:05:19.520 --> 01:05:21.750
like that was like
01:05:21.760 --> 01:05:25.349
uh worth, you know, losing this
01:05:25.359 --> 01:05:27.029
substrate or whatever. And that's why
01:05:27.039 --> 01:05:28.549
for me Peterson and that whole thing,
01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:30.789
but the steel manning came out of that.
01:05:30.799 --> 01:05:33.109
That was and and Weinstein is still kind
01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:33.990
of
01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:35.990
>> in a sense if you follow him on Twitter
01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:38.150
he's actually still figure trying to
01:05:38.160 --> 01:05:41.510
keep that posture open.
01:05:41.520 --> 01:05:45.270
>> Yeah. I I think so I think steel manning
01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:47.510
is a great
01:05:47.520 --> 01:05:51.670
step in the right direction but it it's
01:05:51.680 --> 01:05:55.349
still kind of stuck in
01:05:55.359 --> 01:05:58.309
um a non-personalist ontology.
01:05:58.319 --> 01:06:00.069
>> Yes. And I think this is this is another
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:02.549
thing like whenever Luke says something
01:06:02.559 --> 01:06:04.150
like, "Oh, I've read that article
01:06:04.160 --> 01:06:06.549
because we're just like vibrating on the
01:06:06.559 --> 01:06:09.270
same wavelength." But he Luke talks
01:06:09.280 --> 01:06:11.430
about this this term called Star
01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:13.109
Manning, which was
01:06:13.119 --> 01:06:13.670
>> Yeah.
01:06:13.680 --> 01:06:17.430
>> Uh a guy named Angel Eduardo um wrote
01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:20.630
about it on Center for Inquiry. And it's
01:06:20.640 --> 01:06:22.789
basically about
01:06:22.799 --> 01:06:26.710
not just trying to make the best like
01:06:26.720 --> 01:06:28.309
argument, the strongest argument for
01:06:28.319 --> 01:06:30.789
your opponent, but to see your opponent
01:06:30.799 --> 01:06:33.510
as a person with like a context and a
01:06:33.520 --> 01:06:35.430
story and dare I say made in the image
01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:39.510
of God if you want to go there and as
01:06:39.520 --> 01:06:41.270
like
01:06:41.280 --> 01:06:45.670
the child of a mother, you know. And I
01:06:45.680 --> 01:06:48.710
think that's where like the TLC the TLC
01:06:48.720 --> 01:06:51.670
kind of thrives is we've become friends.
01:06:51.680 --> 01:06:53.589
There's there's an element of friendship
01:06:53.599 --> 01:06:57.029
that that transcends
01:06:57.039 --> 01:07:01.670
just pure um propositional
01:07:01.680 --> 01:07:04.309
exchange.
01:07:04.319 --> 01:07:06.630
>> This is this was where my conversation
01:07:06.640 --> 01:07:08.710
with you said you were working way with
01:07:08.720 --> 01:07:11.270
through it with voice but
01:07:11.280 --> 01:07:13.829
>> he's talking about fraternity.
01:07:13.839 --> 01:07:15.829
Um, Neil talks a lot about fraternity
01:07:15.839 --> 01:07:17.589
and of course that has a little bit more
01:07:17.599 --> 01:07:19.430
of a masculine,
01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:22.549
you know, side of that conversation.
01:07:22.559 --> 01:07:26.390
Uh, but the point we kind of got to like
01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:31.211
who gets to star man Nick Fuentes
01:07:31.221 --> 01:07:32.309
[sighs]
01:07:32.319 --> 01:07:37.510
and my so so the question who who sees
01:07:37.520 --> 01:07:40.390
him as a person not Nazi?
01:07:40.400 --> 01:07:41.990
>> Is that appropriate? is that, you know,
01:07:42.000 --> 01:07:44.309
there's a lot, you know, is that okay?
01:07:44.319 --> 01:07:45.430
>> Um,
01:07:45.440 --> 01:07:47.270
>> and then,
01:07:47.280 --> 01:07:49.270
uh, even if he's not starmanning other
01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:51.349
people or whatever, you know, the Jews
01:07:51.359 --> 01:07:53.430
and and whatnot.
01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:56.150
Um, and
01:07:56.160 --> 01:07:58.789
to me
01:07:58.799 --> 01:08:02.549
that that is a is is there enough can
01:08:02.559 --> 01:08:05.029
that posture stretch? How far is it have
01:08:05.039 --> 01:08:06.870
the ability to stretch that, you know,
01:08:06.880 --> 01:08:09.829
or is there a limit to that?
01:08:09.839 --> 01:08:11.829
um
01:08:11.839 --> 01:08:16.309
you know in the kind of
01:08:16.319 --> 01:08:19.030
isish Christian orthodoxy millu that
01:08:19.040 --> 01:08:22.950
this space you know exists in in a way
01:08:22.960 --> 01:08:24.789
and
01:08:24.799 --> 01:08:27.749
yeah so that that is a question and just
01:08:27.759 --> 01:08:30.070
think like
01:08:30.080 --> 01:08:32.070
people like uh this the hot
01:08:32.080 --> 01:08:33.829
conversations with you know Tucker
01:08:33.839 --> 01:08:37.590
Carlson and this is all very had you
01:08:37.600 --> 01:08:39.829
know it just was massively intense on,
01:08:39.839 --> 01:08:42.550
you know, conservative dissident right
01:08:42.560 --> 01:08:46.229
Twitter. But, um, I did see I was
01:08:46.239 --> 01:08:47.749
talking to Cadell last about this and
01:08:47.759 --> 01:08:49.269
there's two things. One is about the
01:08:49.279 --> 01:08:50.950
cultural evolution and the other one is
01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:52.432
about the star manning thing
01:08:52.442 --> 01:08:53.510
[clears throat]
01:08:53.520 --> 01:08:55.910
>> is
01:08:55.920 --> 01:08:58.229
uh I saw two 50-year-olds talk to this
01:08:58.239 --> 01:09:00.229
20 year old and when he start and they
01:09:00.239 --> 01:09:03.189
were calling him out you know on in
01:09:03.199 --> 01:09:05.829
their in their place in their home hey
01:09:05.839 --> 01:09:07.430
if you keep talking like this people
01:09:07.440 --> 01:09:08.630
aren't going to there's going to be a
01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:10.870
limit to what people take you seriously
01:09:10.880 --> 01:09:12.630
or [clears throat] that's not really a
01:09:12.640 --> 01:09:15.189
great view about women and these these
01:09:15.199 --> 01:09:16.870
were men that were saying this to him
01:09:16.880 --> 01:09:18.870
publicly And you know, but
01:09:18.880 --> 01:09:20.550
acknowledging, hey, maybe we agree on
01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:22.630
these things, but you just can't that's
01:09:22.640 --> 01:09:25.110
not going to get you anywhere. And then
01:09:25.120 --> 01:09:26.870
uh
01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:30.390
the other piece of it was I like his
01:09:30.400 --> 01:09:33.749
origin story is a lot like Harry Potter
01:09:33.759 --> 01:09:35.990
or Voldemort. And it's who do you want
01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:37.749
who do you want to create? Or maybe has
01:09:37.759 --> 01:09:39.590
he already is he too far from
01:09:39.600 --> 01:09:42.709
redemption? Is he already Voldemort?
01:09:42.719 --> 01:09:45.510
Um or is there a chance for redemption?
01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:47.030
I don't know.
01:09:47.040 --> 01:09:50.950
Um, but it's like, you know, the sorting
01:09:50.960 --> 01:09:54.070
hat. Is he's gonna is he just Slytherin?
01:09:54.080 --> 01:09:56.070
You know, is it like or does he have a
01:09:56.080 --> 01:09:57.669
chance to become brave? I don't know.
01:09:57.679 --> 01:10:00.149
Maybe he's too old. Maybe it's too far.
01:10:00.159 --> 01:10:00.550
But
01:10:00.560 --> 01:10:03.350
>> well, I'm a Universalist, so I don't
01:10:03.360 --> 01:10:05.189
think anyone's too far from redemption
01:10:05.199 --> 01:10:08.550
>> from ultimate redemption. Uh, but yeah.
01:10:08.560 --> 01:10:10.790
Well, okay. in, you know, in the in the
01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:13.510
in the already, but not [laughter] yet.
01:10:13.520 --> 01:10:17.270
>> But so then the other piece is this uh
01:10:17.280 --> 01:10:20.390
this cultural evolution.
01:10:20.400 --> 01:10:22.390
>> So I came across this guy on Elliot
01:10:22.400 --> 01:10:24.950
Betwick's podcast. He's a young zoomer
01:10:24.960 --> 01:10:28.550
in the UK that's kind of doing this um
01:10:28.560 --> 01:10:31.189
uh he's trying to do Chris Williamson
01:10:31.199 --> 01:10:34.149
like that's his that he's trying to do
01:10:34.159 --> 01:10:37.030
high production like sharp questioning
01:10:37.040 --> 01:10:38.550
and
01:10:38.560 --> 01:10:40.229
workout bro and all this stuff he's
01:10:40.239 --> 01:10:41.910
British
01:10:41.920 --> 01:10:43.430
>> and he was talking to kind of this
01:10:43.440 --> 01:10:45.669
nationalist guy and he said because this
01:10:45.679 --> 01:10:47.189
whole question about identity that we're
01:10:47.199 --> 01:10:51.990
circling around and um and he gave a you
01:10:52.000 --> 01:10:53.430
know a covenantal
01:10:53.440 --> 01:10:55.669
view of identity
01:10:55.679 --> 01:10:58.870
which uh talking about that ev cultural
01:10:58.880 --> 01:11:01.910
evolution and we get so much of this
01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:06.229
outlined from the Hebrew scripture which
01:11:06.239 --> 01:11:10.390
is there's the person Adam always in
01:11:10.400 --> 01:11:11.990
initially in relationship to the vine so
01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:13.669
he's never an individual he's always a
01:11:13.679 --> 01:11:16.149
person and then you have the marriage
01:11:16.159 --> 01:11:18.470
covenant between Adam and Eve and then
01:11:18.480 --> 01:11:21.189
you have the covenant uh the noatic
01:11:21.199 --> 01:11:23.669
covenant which is about the household
01:11:23.679 --> 01:11:25.990
and then you have the tribal covenant
01:11:26.000 --> 01:11:28.709
with Abraham and then you have the the
01:11:28.719 --> 01:11:30.630
covenant of nation with Moses and then
01:11:30.640 --> 01:11:32.149
you have the covenant of kingdom with
01:11:32.159 --> 01:11:34.709
David and then ultimately the covenant
01:11:34.719 --> 01:11:37.030
of the church in Christ.
01:11:37.040 --> 01:11:38.870
>> And that we actually don't lose any of
01:11:38.880 --> 01:11:40.870
those identities. [clears throat]
01:11:40.880 --> 01:11:42.630
>> But it sounds like a little bit of the
01:11:42.640 --> 01:11:44.149
conversation about like the evolution is
01:11:44.159 --> 01:11:45.990
like well we don't we're beyond
01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:47.590
kingdoms. we're, you know, now you have
01:11:47.600 --> 01:11:49.110
all these people talking about return to
01:11:49.120 --> 01:11:51.830
monarchy or we're beyond or now we, you
01:11:51.840 --> 01:11:53.030
know, then there's the Christian
01:11:53.040 --> 01:11:55.669
nationalists and um and then you have
01:11:55.679 --> 01:11:58.870
like tribal stuff like and it's and
01:11:58.880 --> 01:12:01.990
everyone's pointing at these things like
01:12:02.000 --> 01:12:03.350
um you know, we're beyond that, we're
01:12:03.360 --> 01:12:04.870
beyond that. I feel like we're all of
01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:07.750
it. I feel like we're still all of it
01:12:07.760 --> 01:12:10.070
and that we do like it and it's actually
01:12:10.080 --> 01:12:11.830
that we're doing something. There's like
01:12:11.840 --> 01:12:14.630
a a spell like the Charles Taylor spell
01:12:14.640 --> 01:12:17.270
of secularity that says there's no more
01:12:17.280 --> 01:12:19.030
kingdoms,
01:12:19.040 --> 01:12:21.189
there's no more tribes, we're all in
01:12:21.199 --> 01:12:23.345
this seculum. And then we
01:12:23.355 --> 01:12:24.550
[clears throat] kind of go around
01:12:24.560 --> 01:12:25.910
pretending like these things don't
01:12:25.920 --> 01:12:29.350
exist, you know. Um,
01:12:29.360 --> 01:12:31.030
and then there's a nation, you know,
01:12:31.040 --> 01:12:32.470
every nation, tribe, and tug. Talk about
01:12:32.480 --> 01:12:34.550
that. What is that escaton?
01:12:34.560 --> 01:12:37.430
Like the nations still exist in the
01:12:37.440 --> 01:12:39.430
escaton. Um,
01:12:39.440 --> 01:12:41.910
>> at least in that thing. So
01:12:41.920 --> 01:12:45.990
>> yeah. Yeah. The I mean you're you're
01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:49.669
kind of describing the a developmental
01:12:49.679 --> 01:12:51.830
understanding. Maybe you're not thinking
01:12:51.840 --> 01:12:53.590
of it in terms of development exactly,
01:12:53.600 --> 01:12:56.870
but it's like these different
01:12:56.880 --> 01:12:57.510
>> identity
01:12:57.520 --> 01:13:00.709
>> domains of identity are stacked on top
01:13:00.719 --> 01:13:01.830
of each other,
01:13:01.840 --> 01:13:02.229
>> right?
01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:05.350
>> And rely on each other. So like
01:13:05.360 --> 01:13:07.830
modernity relies on traditionalism which
01:13:07.840 --> 01:13:13.350
relies on this tribal system and
01:13:13.360 --> 01:13:15.430
progressive postmodernity relies on
01:13:15.440 --> 01:13:18.070
modernity even though it's it's pushing
01:13:18.080 --> 01:13:21.750
off against modernity. Um
01:13:21.760 --> 01:13:25.910
and if as things unravel it will unravel
01:13:25.920 --> 01:13:29.270
to the next like most stable point. And
01:13:29.280 --> 01:13:31.270
you know, I I feel like the
01:13:31.280 --> 01:13:32.790
traditionalists
01:13:32.800 --> 01:13:35.030
want everything to just unravel back to
01:13:35.040 --> 01:13:37.990
like 1950 or you know, [laughter]
01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:40.149
the when when uh there's a little bit
01:13:40.159 --> 01:13:45.910
more of uh acceptance and uh there was
01:13:45.920 --> 01:13:48.630
the the tendrils of of traditionalism
01:13:48.640 --> 01:13:52.426
had a little more power in the culture.
01:13:52.436 --> 01:13:55.350
[snorts] Um
01:13:55.360 --> 01:13:56.229
I don't know where I was going with
01:13:56.239 --> 01:13:58.470
that. Well, is this I wonder if there's
01:13:58.480 --> 01:14:01.430
a I
01:14:01.440 --> 01:14:03.430
just that these
01:14:03.440 --> 01:14:06.950
I don't know if I'm like in that there's
01:14:06.960 --> 01:14:09.350
like I think that you could look at as a
01:14:09.360 --> 01:14:11.110
person you could look at those different
01:14:11.120 --> 01:14:12.790
covenantal identities and you could
01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:15.430
actually find that they all exist right
01:14:15.440 --> 01:14:16.470
now
01:14:16.480 --> 01:14:18.070
>> in you like [clears throat] as a person
01:14:18.080 --> 01:14:20.229
okay a Christian as a husband to my wife
01:14:20.239 --> 01:14:23.830
as a father to my family as uh in what's
01:14:23.840 --> 01:14:26.229
my tribe like is this my friends is this
01:14:26.239 --> 01:14:27.830
my kind of local church. Is this the
01:14:27.840 --> 01:14:29.350
corner of the internet? Is that my
01:14:29.360 --> 01:14:30.550
tribe?
01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:32.149
>> And uh you know, someone actually put me
01:14:32.159 --> 01:14:34.310
in their tribe on Twitter one time, you
01:14:34.320 --> 01:14:35.590
know. Uh
01:14:35.600 --> 01:14:38.310
>> and then and then Okay. And then well,
01:14:38.320 --> 01:14:42.149
what's my nation? Okay. Am I Aran inside
01:14:42.159 --> 01:14:44.310
of the nation of the United States? And
01:14:44.320 --> 01:14:46.070
>> and is there a kingdom? Is that the
01:14:46.080 --> 01:14:47.110
West?
01:14:47.120 --> 01:14:48.709
>> And what's the church? Is the church
01:14:48.719 --> 01:14:50.229
like all of a sudden it's like you have
01:14:50.239 --> 01:14:51.669
this thing, this meta thing that then
01:14:51.679 --> 01:14:52.870
goes all the way down through all of
01:14:52.880 --> 01:14:56.390
them and all the way back up. um at the
01:14:56.400 --> 01:14:59.750
very top it infiltrates all of them.
01:14:59.760 --> 01:15:00.390
>> Yeah.
01:15:00.400 --> 01:15:02.310
>> And but that they all exist like right
01:15:02.320 --> 01:15:05.110
now is
01:15:05.120 --> 01:15:06.310
I've been thinking about
01:15:06.320 --> 01:15:08.390
>> Well, okay. So, that's an interesting
01:15:08.400 --> 01:15:12.950
thought. Did um like I I would say that
01:15:12.960 --> 01:15:15.189
that they
01:15:15.199 --> 01:15:18.070
within time
01:15:18.080 --> 01:15:21.030
they all exist to the point that they've
01:15:21.040 --> 01:15:24.950
evolved within that time frame. So like
01:15:24.960 --> 01:15:27.990
300 years ago, I wouldn't say that they
01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:29.750
all existed.
01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:33.990
Um maybe in some sort of potential, but
01:15:34.000 --> 01:15:36.310
progressive postmodernism, which I
01:15:36.320 --> 01:15:39.189
believe is an actual kind of value
01:15:39.199 --> 01:15:40.709
system that has its own form of
01:15:40.719 --> 01:15:43.350
goodness, truth, and beauty,
01:15:43.360 --> 01:15:47.510
>> wasn't it? It it hadn't like
01:15:47.520 --> 01:15:49.430
there weren't even really like echoes of
01:15:49.440 --> 01:15:50.390
it.
01:15:50.400 --> 01:15:52.229
>> Yeah. then and because we didn't have
01:15:52.239 --> 01:15:53.750
the technology to connect the entire
01:15:53.760 --> 01:15:55.030
world. I mean, part of progressive
01:15:55.040 --> 01:15:56.630
postmodernism is this like
01:15:56.640 --> 01:15:57.110
>> global
01:15:57.120 --> 01:15:59.030
>> this the global understanding that we're
01:15:59.040 --> 01:16:01.430
all like a human race that deserves
01:16:01.440 --> 01:16:03.350
rights and including the trees and the
01:16:03.360 --> 01:16:04.550
birds
01:16:04.560 --> 01:16:09.669
>> and [clears throat] um
01:16:09.679 --> 01:16:11.350
>> well yeah and that's an interesting
01:16:11.360 --> 01:16:15.669
thing about the even so every person has
01:16:15.679 --> 01:16:17.350
dignity
01:16:17.360 --> 01:16:20.070
what identifies that under you know the
01:16:20.080 --> 01:16:23.510
abago day or God's creation right and
01:16:23.520 --> 01:16:26.550
And but that can
01:16:26.560 --> 01:16:29.750
how does that propagate globally like
01:16:29.760 --> 01:16:32.709
what is the and and there is this like
01:16:32.719 --> 01:16:36.229
the church like Catholic you know
01:16:36.239 --> 01:16:39.430
something universal something global in
01:16:39.440 --> 01:16:44.390
that way um but that's not globalism
01:16:44.400 --> 01:16:47.030
you know like uh
01:16:47.040 --> 01:16:50.470
so yeah I don't know but that I I just
01:16:50.480 --> 01:16:53.270
have kind of wondered like I still think
01:16:53.280 --> 01:16:55.270
that we operate
01:16:55.280 --> 01:16:59.030
in these fractals of identity kind of
01:16:59.040 --> 01:17:02.790
outlined in that uh
01:17:02.800 --> 01:17:06.070
kind of biblical meta narrative
01:17:06.080 --> 01:17:08.229
and that even though we don't call
01:17:08.239 --> 01:17:10.310
something a kingdom or even though we
01:17:10.320 --> 01:17:11.750
were like oh we can't just be
01:17:11.760 --> 01:17:14.550
nationalistic or like we can't be we
01:17:14.560 --> 01:17:17.189
can't do nationalism again but it's like
01:17:17.199 --> 01:17:19.350
I think we have we are always doing
01:17:19.360 --> 01:17:21.830
nationalism but it's at it's at a
01:17:21.840 --> 01:17:23.270
certain
01:17:23.280 --> 01:17:25.830
thing. It's It's happening. We're always
01:17:25.840 --> 01:17:26.229
doing
01:17:26.239 --> 01:17:27.189
>> Yes.
01:17:27.199 --> 01:17:29.990
>> empire or kingdom at a certain point and
01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:32.390
we're always doing tribal stuff and
01:17:32.400 --> 01:17:36.149
we're always ourselves too um in
01:17:36.159 --> 01:17:37.910
relationship to all those things.
01:17:37.920 --> 01:17:40.390
>> Yeah.
01:17:40.400 --> 01:17:43.510
But I don't think we can do nationalism
01:17:43.520 --> 01:17:45.990
in the same way because
01:17:46.000 --> 01:17:48.390
>> it's it's it's a new it's a new
01:17:48.400 --> 01:17:52.709
synthesis that somehow um includes now
01:17:52.719 --> 01:17:56.310
just even the awareness of like a person
01:17:56.320 --> 01:17:57.750
on the other side of the globe that I
01:17:57.760 --> 01:17:59.110
can talk to instantly.
01:17:59.120 --> 01:17:59.669
>> Yeah.
01:17:59.679 --> 01:18:02.790
>> Um is created something a new type of
01:18:02.800 --> 01:18:06.070
nationalism. Um, and when you ask like
01:18:06.080 --> 01:18:09.270
how does this propagate,
01:18:09.280 --> 01:18:11.350
I think it's like it's going to
01:18:11.360 --> 01:18:13.990
propagate in a different a different
01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:16.390
way. I think before it was through kind
01:18:16.400 --> 01:18:18.470
of force and bloodshed
01:18:18.480 --> 01:18:23.270
>> and now I think it's through more of a
01:18:23.280 --> 01:18:25.590
process and I think this is like the
01:18:25.600 --> 01:18:29.430
estuary model is like so interesting to
01:18:29.440 --> 01:18:31.510
me and I talked a little bit about this
01:18:31.520 --> 01:18:37.110
in my um what was it my fixed toflow
01:18:37.120 --> 01:18:38.950
estuary fence.
01:18:38.960 --> 01:18:41.110
>> Oh yeah yeah yeah. you know, I I I think
01:18:41.120 --> 01:18:43.030
in diagrams. So, I like had a bunch of
01:18:43.040 --> 01:18:45.030
little drawings that I made for this.
01:18:45.040 --> 01:18:48.950
But but this estuary
01:18:48.960 --> 01:18:53.510
protocol, the pitch point play creates,
01:18:53.520 --> 01:18:56.390
it's kind of like this little package of
01:18:56.400 --> 01:18:59.189
integrated worldviews. Like it has this
01:18:59.199 --> 01:19:02.550
structure which is which I kind of um
01:19:02.560 --> 01:19:05.750
connect to the traditional it like it
01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:07.990
fences in this area that keeps the
01:19:08.000 --> 01:19:11.510
wolves out. So there's some safety in
01:19:11.520 --> 01:19:15.030
there. And then um the [clears throat]
01:19:15.040 --> 01:19:17.910
the that's kind of like the rules and
01:19:17.920 --> 01:19:20.630
the facilitated part and um just the
01:19:20.640 --> 01:19:22.790
structure itself like starting and
01:19:22.800 --> 01:19:25.510
ending on time. And then there's the
01:19:25.520 --> 01:19:28.470
modern the the pointing part which I I
01:19:28.480 --> 01:19:31.590
associate with um kind of like survival
01:19:31.600 --> 01:19:33.430
of the fittest.
01:19:33.440 --> 01:19:35.510
uh you know there's a survival of the
01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:37.750
fittest within estuary conversations
01:19:37.760 --> 01:19:39.669
where the person with the most juicy
01:19:39.679 --> 01:19:43.270
salient idea kind of wins and then um
01:19:43.280 --> 01:19:45.669
but everyone also gets their voices
01:19:45.679 --> 01:19:48.310
heard so that's very much like
01:19:48.320 --> 01:19:50.709
everyone's story matters progressive
01:19:50.719 --> 01:19:52.390
postmodern for sure
01:19:52.400 --> 01:19:54.070
>> and then the whole thing this kind of
01:19:54.080 --> 01:19:55.910
playful integration of all of them I
01:19:55.920 --> 01:19:57.910
associate with
01:19:57.920 --> 01:20:01.189
>> kind of this developmental integral meta
01:20:01.199 --> 01:20:03.270
whatever we're calling it It's it's
01:20:03.280 --> 01:20:05.510
synthesizing it all into this little
01:20:05.520 --> 01:20:09.055
process that I think could spread.
01:20:09.065 --> 01:20:09.270
[sighs]
01:20:09.280 --> 01:20:12.149
>> Do you think I mean how do you see it
01:20:12.159 --> 01:20:13.990
right now? like from your vantage point
01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:16.630
like coming in and noticing [snorts]
01:20:16.640 --> 01:20:18.709
that you know the people that have been
01:20:18.719 --> 01:20:20.390
in for a long time have gone to a few
01:20:20.400 --> 01:20:23.750
quoteunquote estuary uh conferences and
01:20:23.760 --> 01:20:25.430
then coming in like at the big you know
01:20:25.440 --> 01:20:27.510
at the biggest point it's been I guess
01:20:27.520 --> 01:20:29.189
that was your first participate my first
01:20:29.199 --> 01:20:31.430
participation into the you know Midwest
01:20:31.440 --> 01:20:32.950
estuary
01:20:32.960 --> 01:20:37.110
>> um like do you do you see that it still
01:20:37.120 --> 01:20:39.270
has some
01:20:39.280 --> 01:20:42.390
juice or some ump for the going forward
01:20:42.400 --> 01:20:43.830
or do you think it's I mean what are
01:20:43.840 --> 01:20:46.630
your what's your perspective on that?
01:20:46.640 --> 01:20:50.790
>> Yeah, the Midwestary was
01:20:50.800 --> 01:20:52.470
really
01:20:52.480 --> 01:20:55.910
powerful for me to
01:20:55.920 --> 01:20:58.310
kind of funnel all of this. Sorry, I'm
01:20:58.320 --> 01:21:00.709
used to like seeing myself in the full
01:21:00.719 --> 01:21:02.709
screen. So, I have my hands up. I'm
01:21:02.719 --> 01:21:04.149
constantly using my hands, but you can't
01:21:04.159 --> 01:21:04.790
see them.
01:21:04.800 --> 01:21:06.709
>> You have to you have to get them in. So
01:21:06.719 --> 01:21:12.070
this funnel, this funnel of of um all
01:21:12.080 --> 01:21:17.910
these kind of disembodied relationships
01:21:17.920 --> 01:21:21.030
like suddenly
01:21:21.040 --> 01:21:23.030
um [clears throat]
01:21:23.040 --> 01:21:25.750
like like the inside of a chrysalis,
01:21:25.760 --> 01:21:27.990
whatever happens between the
01:21:28.000 --> 01:21:32.070
>> caterpillar turning into a butterfly. Um
01:21:32.080 --> 01:21:39.430
this gestalt moment. um was profound
01:21:39.440 --> 01:21:42.790
for me because it it was just confirming
01:21:42.800 --> 01:21:44.630
like this is real. There's something
01:21:44.640 --> 01:21:46.550
actually real happening here and the
01:21:46.560 --> 01:21:49.430
internet is real. It's
01:21:49.440 --> 01:21:52.310
um it's part of this like
01:21:52.320 --> 01:21:53.510
>> economy.
01:21:53.520 --> 01:21:54.470
>> Yeah.
01:21:54.480 --> 01:21:58.310
>> And there's dignity in it because
01:21:58.320 --> 01:22:01.030
>> real friendships are happening. there's
01:22:01.040 --> 01:22:03.350
this process of moving from out of the
01:22:03.360 --> 01:22:08.229
lurk into seeing and being seen and
01:22:08.239 --> 01:22:11.430
waking up, you know. Um like all of
01:22:11.440 --> 01:22:13.830
these things people are growing through
01:22:13.840 --> 01:22:18.149
it and um
01:22:18.159 --> 01:22:19.350
>> did you say you were starting an
01:22:19.360 --> 01:22:20.629
estuary?
01:22:20.639 --> 01:22:22.390
>> Yes. Okay. Yeah. So, this is another
01:22:22.400 --> 01:22:27.750
part of this evolution [gasps] is uh I
01:22:27.760 --> 01:22:30.390
my buddy Jared, who you may have run
01:22:30.400 --> 01:22:32.229
across out on the internet, he's kind of
01:22:32.239 --> 01:22:35.430
like in the last few years has become a
01:22:35.440 --> 01:22:37.910
little bit of an internet god.
01:22:37.920 --> 01:22:39.270
>> Philosophy bro.
01:22:39.280 --> 01:22:41.910
>> Philosophy bro. Yeah. Jared Henderson.
01:22:41.920 --> 01:22:44.470
Um he
01:22:44.480 --> 01:22:47.189
he was like, "Tell me about this Paul
01:22:47.199 --> 01:22:48.709
Vanderlay."
01:22:48.719 --> 01:22:50.550
I think I had actually been pitching him
01:22:50.560 --> 01:22:53.270
on it and then finally he
01:22:53.280 --> 01:22:55.189
watched some of his stuff or maybe the
01:22:55.199 --> 01:22:56.950
algo
01:22:56.960 --> 01:23:00.790
found him [laughter]
01:23:00.800 --> 01:23:03.110
doing bless God bless the algo.
01:23:03.120 --> 01:23:07.750
>> God bless the algo. Uh and so he was
01:23:07.760 --> 01:23:09.510
like what if what if we started one of
01:23:09.520 --> 01:23:12.070
these estuary groups? We kind of had
01:23:12.080 --> 01:23:13.990
this the idea I think at the same time
01:23:14.000 --> 01:23:17.110
and I was like yes um but let's not do
01:23:17.120 --> 01:23:19.189
it at our church because it'll just turn
01:23:19.199 --> 01:23:22.709
into like an orthob bro like
01:23:22.719 --> 01:23:25.030
place and I I think the the secret is
01:23:25.040 --> 01:23:29.189
actually finding a diversity of opinions
01:23:29.199 --> 01:23:33.430
which I think is an art in itself. Um,
01:23:33.440 --> 01:23:36.470
so, uh, we happen to both have a friend
01:23:36.480 --> 01:23:39.510
who is an Episcopal priest and a little
01:23:39.520 --> 01:23:43.110
bit closer into town into Austin and he
01:23:43.120 --> 01:23:47.990
agreed to, um, host it. And so, [gasps]
01:23:48.000 --> 01:23:50.070
you know, we had our first one last
01:23:50.080 --> 01:23:52.629
month in October and it was just the
01:23:52.639 --> 01:23:55.688
three of us plus my neighbor. Um, and
01:23:55.698 --> 01:23:56.310
[clears throat]
01:23:56.320 --> 01:23:59.110
now we have another one tomorrow.
01:23:59.120 --> 01:24:01.350
>> Okay. which it will have already passed,
01:24:01.360 --> 01:24:03.750
I'm sure, by the time this comes out.
01:24:03.760 --> 01:24:09.110
But, um, we have 14 people RSVPd on the
01:24:09.120 --> 01:24:10.229
Eventbrite.
01:24:10.239 --> 01:24:14.149
>> We'll see if if like if we get three new
01:24:14.159 --> 01:24:18.709
people out of it, I'll be very excited.
01:24:18.719 --> 01:24:21.189
Well, how I mean so it's like you know
01:24:21.199 --> 01:24:23.510
local Facebook kind of stuff the ad like
01:24:23.520 --> 01:24:26.550
how how you know word of mouth with just
01:24:26.560 --> 01:24:28.790
>> Yeah, I I tried post there's there's
01:24:28.800 --> 01:24:31.270
like a Discord for Texas. I tried
01:24:31.280 --> 01:24:32.950
posting on there but there's not really
01:24:32.960 --> 01:24:36.470
much activity in the Austin
01:24:36.480 --> 01:24:40.390
channel. So I haven't actually uh none
01:24:40.400 --> 01:24:43.750
of the TLC folk from Austin have shown
01:24:43.760 --> 01:24:45.189
showed up to the first one. I don't know
01:24:45.199 --> 01:24:48.629
if they will um to the next one, but I
01:24:48.639 --> 01:24:52.070
just put it out on Facebook. I put it
01:24:52.080 --> 01:24:55.910
out on Eventbrite. I'm like I'm I'm
01:24:55.920 --> 01:24:58.470
trying not to seed it too much with my
01:24:58.480 --> 01:25:01.430
own friends.
01:25:01.440 --> 01:25:04.310
>> But it may come to that, you know.
01:25:04.320 --> 01:25:05.669
>> It may come to that.
01:25:05.679 --> 01:25:07.750
>> May come to that. I [snorts] mean I, you
01:25:07.760 --> 01:25:09.430
know, I want like people coming in off
01:25:09.440 --> 01:25:11.590
the street like give me some
01:25:11.600 --> 01:25:15.750
conversation. Well, I think so the kind
01:25:15.760 --> 01:25:19.510
of the the original
01:25:19.520 --> 01:25:21.110
thing that happened were quote unquote
01:25:21.120 --> 01:25:23.430
Jordan Peterson meetup groups
01:25:23.440 --> 01:25:25.270
>> because
01:25:25.280 --> 01:25:27.030
people were looking for a place to talk
01:25:27.040 --> 01:25:28.629
about this guy without getting cancelled
01:25:28.639 --> 01:25:32.310
or being thought weird. And so to me
01:25:32.320 --> 01:25:35.110
there's kind of a there's the version of
01:25:35.120 --> 01:25:38.709
it that is like divorced from
01:25:38.719 --> 01:25:41.030
where attention is at or something where
01:25:41.040 --> 01:25:43.750
it's like can we find something that can
01:25:43.760 --> 01:25:48.550
we foster something that where it exists
01:25:48.560 --> 01:25:50.629
on its own
01:25:50.639 --> 01:25:53.910
or is there a meta conversation that I'm
01:25:53.920 --> 01:25:57.750
trying to have that I can't have
01:25:57.760 --> 01:25:59.990
>> um or I don't feel like I know where to
01:26:00.000 --> 01:26:02.149
have that conversation and I feel like
01:26:02.159 --> 01:26:04.149
that's a little bit I I've kind of have
01:26:04.159 --> 01:26:06.229
this thesis I mean it's not a thesis but
01:26:06.239 --> 01:26:07.910
like is there a difference between this
01:26:07.920 --> 01:26:09.430
little corner and estuary and I think
01:26:09.440 --> 01:26:13.030
this little corner is is
01:26:13.040 --> 01:26:16.229
internet and estuary is meat space the
01:26:16.239 --> 01:26:18.229
question is
01:26:18.239 --> 01:26:21.590
can do they have their own
01:26:21.600 --> 01:26:26.709
telos that is different and um I don't
01:26:26.719 --> 01:26:33.189
know like um can it be divorced from its
01:26:33.199 --> 01:26:35.669
ontology or its development and
01:26:35.679 --> 01:26:37.270
creation, I guess, is my is the question
01:26:37.280 --> 01:26:40.390
I feel like I'm I'm wondering about. Um,
01:26:40.400 --> 01:26:42.470
and
01:26:42.480 --> 01:26:44.390
uh
01:26:44.400 --> 01:26:46.149
how much of those things are are at
01:26:46.159 --> 01:26:47.910
play? I just don't know because I know
01:26:47.920 --> 01:26:49.270
that at some point like I mean there
01:26:49.280 --> 01:26:51.350
were like big nonfor-profit people
01:26:51.360 --> 01:26:52.709
wanting to use Paul like they were
01:26:52.719 --> 01:26:54.390
asking for it to like license it or
01:26:54.400 --> 01:26:55.990
something from Paul or you know so it
01:26:56.000 --> 01:26:58.229
has some utility.
01:26:58.239 --> 01:27:01.430
Yeah. No, I mean I I I've had this idea
01:27:01.440 --> 01:27:05.270
of um actually
01:27:05.280 --> 01:27:07.510
>> sprinkling estuary conversations into
01:27:07.520 --> 01:27:10.470
our monthly meetup group through the
01:27:10.480 --> 01:27:12.709
institute because u we usually have
01:27:12.719 --> 01:27:14.629
guest speakers come in and it just turns
01:27:14.639 --> 01:27:17.430
into guest speaker QA and then we're
01:27:17.440 --> 01:27:20.390
out. But everyone, you know, we have
01:27:20.400 --> 01:27:23.189
anywhere from 50 to 70 people showing up
01:27:23.199 --> 01:27:24.709
and it would be like a perfect
01:27:24.719 --> 01:27:27.990
environment for a few breakout rooms and
01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:29.830
just doing kind of an estuary style
01:27:29.840 --> 01:27:30.950
conversation.
01:27:30.960 --> 01:27:33.510
>> Yeah. My wife was at a workshop for her
01:27:33.520 --> 01:27:35.990
school. Uh she's in school to be a
01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:38.870
therapist and it was digital, but they
01:27:38.880 --> 01:27:40.390
then were like, "Okay, here's the topic
01:27:40.400 --> 01:27:42.709
that they're the the what thing that
01:27:42.719 --> 01:27:44.550
there actually it was EMDR they were
01:27:44.560 --> 01:27:45.030
looking at."
01:27:45.040 --> 01:27:48.310
>> Okay. And then uh they had breakout
01:27:48.320 --> 01:27:50.229
groups and then the host would like jump
01:27:50.239 --> 01:27:52.310
into those every now and then, but then
01:27:52.320 --> 01:27:53.750
he was checking on all the little
01:27:53.760 --> 01:27:56.470
classrooms, you know? So like it seems
01:27:56.480 --> 01:27:58.310
like that is possible. You can create
01:27:58.320 --> 01:28:00.310
those, you know, we're going to do this
01:28:00.320 --> 01:28:03.270
and I don't know. I wonder I mean I
01:28:03.280 --> 01:28:07.110
wonder if estruary and TLC are just I'm
01:28:07.120 --> 01:28:08.629
thinking of like a [clears throat]
01:28:08.639 --> 01:28:12.870
toroidal like this shape where you have
01:28:12.880 --> 01:28:16.070
like these these forces kind of coming
01:28:16.080 --> 01:28:19.189
together in this mystical middle and
01:28:19.199 --> 01:28:22.550
it's like the the estuary and the TLC
01:28:22.560 --> 01:28:24.390
are
01:28:24.400 --> 01:28:26.709
they kind of support each other.
01:28:26.719 --> 01:28:29.189
>> Yeah. Um, [clears throat]
01:28:29.199 --> 01:28:33.510
and and it's it's non like it's it's not
01:28:33.520 --> 01:28:35.830
doesn't have a a creed or a doctrine.
01:28:35.840 --> 01:28:38.310
So, it's not a church. It's like it's
01:28:38.320 --> 01:28:41.750
like a process that just helps us exist
01:28:41.760 --> 01:28:45.270
in this
01:28:45.280 --> 01:28:48.229
fragmented world where that's we're
01:28:48.239 --> 01:28:50.229
living in a post-truth
01:28:50.239 --> 01:28:52.550
kind of space. And and what what's
01:28:52.560 --> 01:28:54.470
interesting is
01:28:54.480 --> 01:28:56.229
>> I've
01:28:56.239 --> 01:28:57.669
kind of [snorts]
01:28:57.679 --> 01:29:03.910
um I've snuck in estuary protocol into
01:29:03.920 --> 01:29:07.189
some conversations I have with some
01:29:07.199 --> 01:29:09.350
people at my church who I would put on
01:29:09.360 --> 01:29:11.189
like the very conservative side of the
01:29:11.199 --> 01:29:14.070
spectrum. And
01:29:14.080 --> 01:29:16.550
I feel like
01:29:16.560 --> 01:29:18.470
they really like it.
01:29:18.480 --> 01:29:19.430
>> Mhm.
01:29:19.440 --> 01:29:23.510
um because they're just they're not
01:29:23.520 --> 01:29:25.510
backed into their corner. Like it turns
01:29:25.520 --> 01:29:28.550
out we have actually a lot more in
01:29:28.560 --> 01:29:30.790
common. Even though we can't agree on a
01:29:30.800 --> 01:29:32.870
single news source, we even tried it. I
01:29:32.880 --> 01:29:35.030
tried to create a shared Google doc with
01:29:35.040 --> 01:29:37.910
like let's let's pitch each other like
01:29:37.920 --> 01:29:41.910
five news sources and see if any of them
01:29:41.920 --> 01:29:44.229
are like like let's rank them on, you
01:29:44.239 --> 01:29:45.669
know, a scale of like one to five
01:29:45.679 --> 01:29:48.229
credibility. And like all of mine were
01:29:48.239 --> 01:29:50.470
he ranked all mine as one and I ranked
01:29:50.480 --> 01:29:53.189
all of his as one. But the only one that
01:29:53.199 --> 01:29:55.189
was like this was a couple years that we
01:29:55.199 --> 01:29:57.430
tried this. The the only one that was
01:29:57.440 --> 01:29:58.950
like
01:29:58.960 --> 01:30:01.590
kind of murky middle was Bill Mayer
01:30:01.600 --> 01:30:03.990
because he makes fun of everyone or Bill
01:30:04.000 --> 01:30:04.709
Maher. Yeah,
01:30:04.719 --> 01:30:07.750
>> Bill Maher. Sorry, my brain. Yeah, he's
01:30:07.760 --> 01:30:09.669
he's done something kind of interesting,
01:30:09.679 --> 01:30:11.990
you know, the the the
01:30:12.000 --> 01:30:15.030
plays that he's made and kind of being
01:30:15.040 --> 01:30:17.510
sec in a certain in a in a certain way
01:30:17.520 --> 01:30:19.669
like second or third tier intellectual
01:30:19.679 --> 01:30:22.709
dark webish kind of like he you know he
01:30:22.719 --> 01:30:24.149
kind of came around to certain things
01:30:24.159 --> 01:30:25.910
that he was critical of, but he keeps
01:30:25.920 --> 01:30:28.229
the door open and people keep coming on
01:30:28.239 --> 01:30:30.229
his show like there's a culture that he
01:30:30.239 --> 01:30:33.189
has left and right that he that's
01:30:33.199 --> 01:30:35.830
really, you know, unique I think um and
01:30:35.840 --> 01:30:39.172
what he's been able kind of hold on to
01:30:39.182 --> 01:30:40.950
[clears throat] all this stuff.
01:30:40.960 --> 01:30:42.390
>> Um
01:30:42.400 --> 01:30:44.310
>> that's that makes sense. But the
01:30:44.320 --> 01:30:46.070
sprinkling estuary into those kind of
01:30:46.080 --> 01:30:47.830
conversations get I wonder when you're
01:30:47.840 --> 01:30:49.350
saying that like the part of whatever
01:30:49.360 --> 01:30:52.709
may be the makeup of the conservativeish
01:30:52.719 --> 01:30:53.990
person
01:30:54.000 --> 01:30:55.030
>> is [clears throat] fact that there's
01:30:55.040 --> 01:30:57.189
some structure
01:30:57.199 --> 01:30:59.669
related to it the process that feels
01:30:59.679 --> 01:31:00.790
like yeah there's a little bit of
01:31:00.800 --> 01:31:02.950
control here there's a little bit of
01:31:02.960 --> 01:31:05.110
>> you know form that I can you know but
01:31:05.120 --> 01:31:06.470
yet
01:31:06.480 --> 01:31:07.669
>> the [snorts] person that likes lots of
01:31:07.679 --> 01:31:09.270
ideas is like oh there's lots of ideas
01:31:09.280 --> 01:31:10.870
here you know
01:31:10.880 --> 01:31:15.750
>> that it does kind of capture a uh
01:31:15.760 --> 01:31:18.870
you know something agreeable for people
01:31:18.880 --> 01:31:23.430
from different kind of uh dispositions
01:31:23.440 --> 01:31:24.950
related.
01:31:24.960 --> 01:31:28.149
>> Yeah. Well, I I have yet to be in a
01:31:28.159 --> 01:31:30.229
situation where I I really have people
01:31:30.239 --> 01:31:34.070
coming at it from total opposite
01:31:34.080 --> 01:31:36.709
points of view. Like I've usually played
01:31:36.719 --> 01:31:39.030
the role of the opposite for whatever
01:31:39.040 --> 01:31:41.430
kind of context I'm in. So, like if I'm
01:31:41.440 --> 01:31:43.910
in a very,
01:31:43.920 --> 01:31:45.910
you know, more liberal place, I'm going
01:31:45.920 --> 01:31:48.603
to be playing the um kind of
01:31:48.613 --> 01:31:50.390
[clears throat] the conservative. And
01:31:50.400 --> 01:31:53.189
then if I'm going to if I'm in a very
01:31:53.199 --> 01:31:54.790
conservative place, I'm going to be
01:31:54.800 --> 01:31:56.950
playing the liberal. Which, by the way,
01:31:56.960 --> 01:31:59.669
I have to say, I just had this this kind
01:31:59.679 --> 01:32:01.510
of
01:32:01.520 --> 01:32:04.229
revelation after this fall festival
01:32:04.239 --> 01:32:07.510
where we had, you know, people kind of
01:32:07.520 --> 01:32:10.390
seeing what's possible in themselves and
01:32:10.400 --> 01:32:11.830
each other and like, wow, we could
01:32:11.840 --> 01:32:14.550
actually do this. Like,
01:32:14.560 --> 01:32:18.070
it's more fun being the liberal in a
01:32:18.080 --> 01:32:20.470
kind of hierarchical conservative place
01:32:20.480 --> 01:32:22.790
than being the conservative in a liberal
01:32:22.800 --> 01:32:25.350
place. Like it's just hands down I get
01:32:25.360 --> 01:32:28.629
to be like the kind of like
01:32:28.639 --> 01:32:31.189
hippie that just comes in with flowers
01:32:31.199 --> 01:32:35.430
in his hair and um like ruffling
01:32:35.440 --> 01:32:36.709
feathers a little bit.
01:32:36.719 --> 01:32:37.669
>> All vibes.
01:32:37.679 --> 01:32:41.590
>> All vibes. Um but I'm I'm actually like
01:32:41.600 --> 01:32:42.790
there's a big part of me that's pretty
01:32:42.800 --> 01:32:44.790
conservative and like I don't want to
01:32:44.800 --> 01:32:47.430
like travel and I just like things that
01:32:47.440 --> 01:32:50.149
are predictable and reliable.
01:32:50.159 --> 01:32:53.110
So there's I'm a I'm a mixture of both.
01:32:53.120 --> 01:32:54.550
>> Why do you Yeah. Why do you feel like
01:32:54.560 --> 01:32:56.310
it's more fun to be that than the
01:32:56.320 --> 01:32:57.750
opposite?
01:32:57.760 --> 01:33:01.350
>> Because um Well, okay. I mean, I will
01:33:01.360 --> 01:33:05.030
say that it's not always more fun
01:33:05.040 --> 01:33:09.750
because it is I I also do feel a little
01:33:09.760 --> 01:33:11.430
bit like I've gone through phases of
01:33:11.440 --> 01:33:15.110
being a black sheep because
01:33:15.120 --> 01:33:16.470
people don't know what to do with me.
01:33:16.480 --> 01:33:19.189
And I'm and this is kind of a story I'm
01:33:19.199 --> 01:33:21.669
telling myself. I've heard people, you
01:33:21.679 --> 01:33:24.070
know, I've heard people kind of refer to
01:33:24.080 --> 01:33:27.430
me as like the flaming liberal, which is
01:33:27.440 --> 01:33:30.470
so funny because I'm like to my liberal
01:33:30.480 --> 01:33:34.070
friends, I'm sleeping with the enemy. So
01:33:34.080 --> 01:33:35.669
>> um
01:33:35.679 --> 01:33:37.350
and and [clears throat] so just in kind
01:33:37.360 --> 01:33:43.430
of a internal church dynamic [gasps]
01:33:43.440 --> 01:33:47.590
>> um the mess of internal church dynamics.
01:33:47.600 --> 01:33:49.750
It just it feels like really
01:33:49.760 --> 01:33:52.229
constricting sometimes and like all it
01:33:52.239 --> 01:33:54.629
takes is a few bad interactions with
01:33:54.639 --> 01:33:56.550
like leadership
01:33:56.560 --> 01:34:00.229
>> and it can really
01:34:00.239 --> 01:34:02.550
>> be draining. Yeah.
01:34:02.560 --> 01:34:06.709
>> So, I I say that it's fun to be the
01:34:06.719 --> 01:34:08.470
liberal in a conservative church. There
01:34:08.480 --> 01:34:11.830
there are moments um I I feel like when
01:34:11.840 --> 01:34:15.110
when trust is established, when people
01:34:15.120 --> 01:34:18.870
like I feel like people are kind of
01:34:18.880 --> 01:34:22.950
seeing me as like both a safe person and
01:34:22.960 --> 01:34:26.149
kind of a little kooky. That's like a
01:34:26.159 --> 01:34:29.430
sweet spot that feels real great.
01:34:29.440 --> 01:34:31.750
>> That makes a lot of sense.
01:34:31.760 --> 01:34:33.910
sweet see you as a sweet person but is
01:34:33.920 --> 01:34:36.790
also a little creepy. You know the
01:34:36.800 --> 01:34:38.390
ability
01:34:38.400 --> 01:34:41.270
to be known and to [clears throat] be ex
01:34:41.280 --> 01:34:43.990
accepted or loved or cared about
01:34:44.000 --> 01:34:46.390
regardless of
01:34:46.400 --> 01:34:50.310
your most woke or based opinions or
01:34:50.320 --> 01:34:50.950
beliefs.
01:34:50.960 --> 01:34:54.070
>> Oh, I like that. Polarity woke based.
01:34:54.080 --> 01:34:55.350
Interesting how they're kind of the
01:34:55.360 --> 01:34:56.310
same, aren't they?
01:34:56.320 --> 01:34:57.430
>> Now,
01:34:57.440 --> 01:35:03.669
>> yeah. Uh yeah, that's that is this uh
01:35:03.679 --> 01:35:07.110
>> well and I here's the thing though, like
01:35:07.120 --> 01:35:10.950
I'm not I'm growing too. This is this is
01:35:10.960 --> 01:35:13.350
not like I'm
01:35:13.360 --> 01:35:16.950
getting everyone to I mean I I to be a
01:35:16.960 --> 01:35:19.350
safe person I have to like to to be
01:35:19.360 --> 01:35:21.990
perceived as a safe person in I think
01:35:22.000 --> 01:35:24.470
this context I have to become a safe
01:35:24.480 --> 01:35:27.430
person. I have to I have to play by the
01:35:27.440 --> 01:35:30.790
rules enough to like show people that
01:35:30.800 --> 01:35:34.390
I'm I'm not actually here to destroy
01:35:34.400 --> 01:35:36.950
because I I think I think that's the the
01:35:36.960 --> 01:35:39.270
pathology of progressive post the the
01:35:39.280 --> 01:35:42.470
fear is that they're going to infiltrate
01:35:42.480 --> 01:35:44.870
seep in and then just explode the whole
01:35:44.880 --> 01:35:45.669
system
01:35:45.679 --> 01:35:47.910
>> or not even explode but dissolve
01:35:47.920 --> 01:35:49.270
>> dissolve. Yeah. Dissolve.
01:35:49.280 --> 01:35:50.310
>> It's like a solvent. Like the
01:35:50.320 --> 01:35:52.709
postmodernism is like a solvent to
01:35:52.719 --> 01:35:53.189
>> Yeah.
01:35:53.199 --> 01:35:55.270
>> all these things. Yeah. Yeah, but what
01:35:55.280 --> 01:36:00.550
if we can use like solvent and viscosity
01:36:00.560 --> 01:36:02.149
or what? I don't know the right words,
01:36:02.159 --> 01:36:05.189
but use these two forces to actually
01:36:05.199 --> 01:36:07.590
make something more beautiful.
01:36:07.600 --> 01:36:09.830
>> I mean, to go back to your talent show
01:36:09.840 --> 01:36:11.750
thing, like you kind of created a
01:36:11.760 --> 01:36:13.990
solvent for this what could have been a
01:36:14.000 --> 01:36:16.709
barrier for people, right? Like and then
01:36:16.719 --> 01:36:18.310
it kind of gets rebuilt into a little
01:36:18.320 --> 01:36:19.270
bit of both.
01:36:19.280 --> 01:36:19.830
>> Mhm.
01:36:19.840 --> 01:36:23.510
>> That like you know um where maybe you
01:36:23.520 --> 01:36:25.110
know now you're having to like
01:36:25.120 --> 01:36:27.350
administrate and craft and you know
01:36:27.360 --> 01:36:29.189
structure this thing it sounds like you
01:36:29.199 --> 01:36:30.709
know as it got a little bigger and
01:36:30.719 --> 01:36:31.510
that's
01:36:31.520 --> 01:36:33.830
>> where that kind of building thing which
01:36:33.840 --> 01:36:36.070
is like kind of the fun thing but the
01:36:36.080 --> 01:36:37.830
that you're like oh
01:36:37.840 --> 01:36:40.709
>> um look I something got built something
01:36:40.719 --> 01:36:42.709
got made something got cultivated
01:36:42.719 --> 01:36:46.550
something got created and
01:36:46.560 --> 01:36:49.750
And it's this weird relationship with
01:36:49.760 --> 01:36:51.990
the quote unquote creative but also the
01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:56.470
administrative thing. And um and they
01:36:56.480 --> 01:36:59.270
get pitted against each other. I mean I
01:36:59.280 --> 01:37:01.590
you know in our church like I'm probably
01:37:01.600 --> 01:37:04.709
like one of the most deeply conservative
01:37:04.719 --> 01:37:08.550
people but I purposely didn't and and
01:37:08.560 --> 01:37:09.990
people that maybe don't even see
01:37:10.000 --> 01:37:12.070
themselves as
01:37:12.080 --> 01:37:13.990
that liberal. they would see themselves
01:37:14.000 --> 01:37:15.430
as like moderate or whatever and then
01:37:15.440 --> 01:37:16.790
there's people that would see themselves
01:37:16.800 --> 01:37:19.990
as something like liberal and
01:37:20.000 --> 01:37:21.510
uh I say that at least in like our
01:37:21.520 --> 01:37:26.310
leadership and stuff and uh but that you
01:37:26.320 --> 01:37:28.149
know
01:37:28.159 --> 01:37:30.709
we have to like we're
01:37:30.719 --> 01:37:32.550
as much as like I want to come to a
01:37:32.560 --> 01:37:34.470
place like so coming into the corner is
01:37:34.480 --> 01:37:36.550
like a place for me to try to find the
01:37:36.560 --> 01:37:38.310
conversations that I want to have so
01:37:38.320 --> 01:37:39.669
that when I'm having to have the
01:37:39.679 --> 01:37:42.709
conversations I don't want to have to
01:37:42.719 --> 01:37:46.709
have I am having them, you know, um so
01:37:46.719 --> 01:37:50.070
that I can, like you said, play by the
01:37:50.080 --> 01:37:51.510
rules that way, I guess, in a way.
01:37:51.520 --> 01:37:52.310
>> Yeah.
01:37:52.320 --> 01:37:52.790
>> Um
01:37:52.800 --> 01:37:53.189
>> yeah,
01:37:53.199 --> 01:37:54.149
>> that's important.
01:37:54.159 --> 01:37:56.629
>> Well, and so yeah, I mean I think that's
01:37:56.639 --> 01:38:00.149
the that's the um it's like the word
01:38:00.159 --> 01:38:01.750
antifragile.
01:38:01.760 --> 01:38:03.590
>> I'm not sure if there's another word.
01:38:03.600 --> 01:38:04.229
>> Yeah.
01:38:04.239 --> 01:38:07.109
>> Yeah. But there's there's this um
01:38:07.119 --> 01:38:08.550
resilience.
01:38:08.560 --> 01:38:09.350
>> Mhm.
01:38:09.360 --> 01:38:11.669
>> I think a new level of resilience that
01:38:11.679 --> 01:38:15.830
will be required in this new space, this
01:38:15.840 --> 01:38:17.750
new cultural
01:38:17.760 --> 01:38:19.189
evolutionary space.
01:38:19.199 --> 01:38:19.750
>> Yeah.
01:38:19.760 --> 01:38:23.350
>> That can both kind of
01:38:23.360 --> 01:38:26.709
>> work with solvents and work with
01:38:26.719 --> 01:38:28.470
emulsifier. Is that something that kind
01:38:28.480 --> 01:38:30.790
of bonds binds? I don't know. I'm
01:38:30.800 --> 01:38:31.910
thinking of something that adds
01:38:31.920 --> 01:38:34.053
structure versus something that you know
01:38:34.063 --> 01:38:35.590
[laughter]
01:38:35.600 --> 01:38:37.109
>> this this is what happens when you don't
01:38:37.119 --> 01:38:38.950
have like an official education in
01:38:38.960 --> 01:38:40.870
anything. This is this is the limits of
01:38:40.880 --> 01:38:42.229
my internet education. I'm just
01:38:42.239 --> 01:38:44.149
>> I should be I should be doing better. I
01:38:44.159 --> 01:38:45.910
did get an A in my college chemistry
01:38:45.920 --> 01:38:47.750
class not that long ago.
01:38:47.760 --> 01:38:49.590
>> Oh, dang.
01:38:49.600 --> 01:38:51.830
>> I when I went back to nursing school, I
01:38:51.840 --> 01:38:54.870
took chemistry and physiology and
01:38:54.880 --> 01:38:58.790
everything. That was uh Yeah, the um
01:38:58.800 --> 01:39:00.229
>> coagulator.
01:39:00.239 --> 01:39:01.430
>> Yeah, [snorts] that means that that
01:39:01.440 --> 01:39:05.430
would be for the blood. Yeah.
01:39:05.440 --> 01:39:07.030
And we put like we have this this is
01:39:07.040 --> 01:39:09.030
kind of gross, but like so someone had
01:39:09.040 --> 01:39:11.669
these suction canisters and they
01:39:11.679 --> 01:39:14.870
>> sucking urine, you know, [laughter]
01:39:14.880 --> 01:39:17.189
uh or
01:39:17.199 --> 01:39:20.070
spew them and this stuff and you can put
01:39:20.080 --> 01:39:22.229
this powder in them that congeals like
01:39:22.239 --> 01:39:24.070
you said earlier. Yeah. solidifies and
01:39:24.080 --> 01:39:25.910
then you throw it in the canister.
01:39:25.920 --> 01:39:27.030
>> Congal.
01:39:27.040 --> 01:39:29.109
>> Yeah. A congealer.
01:39:29.119 --> 01:39:30.629
And a solvent.
01:39:30.639 --> 01:39:32.149
>> Solvent. Yeah.
01:39:32.159 --> 01:39:35.030
>> And that I think I think those are the
01:39:35.040 --> 01:39:36.310
tools like we have to be able to use
01:39:36.320 --> 01:39:38.709
both.
01:39:38.719 --> 01:39:40.229
>> Um [clears throat]
01:39:40.239 --> 01:39:42.390
and so I don't know where I was going
01:39:42.400 --> 01:39:43.750
with that.
01:39:43.760 --> 01:39:46.149
Well, I think that's, you know, we this
01:39:46.159 --> 01:39:48.870
conversation has been like an uh, you
01:39:48.880 --> 01:39:50.870
know, because I I definitely know, like
01:39:50.880 --> 01:39:52.870
I said, I'm pretty probably deeply
01:39:52.880 --> 01:39:54.149
conservative and you're like, I know I
01:39:54.159 --> 01:39:56.950
think I'm probably deeply liberal or
01:39:56.960 --> 01:39:58.550
progressive on certain things and vice
01:39:58.560 --> 01:40:01.669
versa. Like that is the beauty and
01:40:01.679 --> 01:40:05.350
that's that's why like um being able to
01:40:05.360 --> 01:40:07.430
see oh well this person has some
01:40:07.440 --> 01:40:09.430
quoteunquote based interest but he's
01:40:09.440 --> 01:40:11.510
also not like just like a
01:40:11.520 --> 01:40:14.229
hopefully you know like that and
01:40:14.239 --> 01:40:16.550
I do that this person and vice versa
01:40:16.560 --> 01:40:17.590
like
01:40:17.600 --> 01:40:19.669
>> um not being
01:40:19.679 --> 01:40:21.109
>> there there I think there's something
01:40:21.119 --> 01:40:22.950
about
01:40:22.960 --> 01:40:26.149
>> becoming ideal like an ideologue or
01:40:26.159 --> 01:40:28.790
letting that be your only north star or
01:40:28.800 --> 01:40:31.910
your nor what I don't even know
01:40:31.920 --> 01:40:34.870
>> that has continued to be a part of this
01:40:34.880 --> 01:40:39.270
culture um and you know
01:40:39.280 --> 01:40:41.109
trying to participate in it trying to
01:40:41.119 --> 01:40:45.830
open these spaces trying to um you know
01:40:45.840 --> 01:40:48.149
find the truth I like what you said I
01:40:48.159 --> 01:40:50.470
guess in the break in my conversation I
01:40:50.480 --> 01:40:53.910
had with Cadell be coming out like uh
01:40:53.920 --> 01:40:55.750
he's the one he calls him he's a
01:40:55.760 --> 01:40:58.070
Christian atheist he's he runs an online
01:40:58.080 --> 01:40:59.669
community called Philosophy Portal and
01:40:59.679 --> 01:41:03.510
he's doing community work related to and
01:41:03.520 --> 01:41:07.350
he he sees something similar that like
01:41:07.360 --> 01:41:08.790
when we're talking about the Protestant
01:41:08.800 --> 01:41:12.229
Reformation and we're talking about uh
01:41:12.239 --> 01:41:14.149
like the civil rights movement or we're
01:41:14.159 --> 01:41:16.229
talking about these these breaks, you
01:41:16.239 --> 01:41:19.109
know, uh this the great schism like that
01:41:19.119 --> 01:41:21.109
he says he thinks the truth is in the
01:41:21.119 --> 01:41:23.270
breaks.
01:41:23.280 --> 01:41:25.830
That's where you find the truth is in
01:41:25.840 --> 01:41:29.669
these these Yeah. Kugi, man,
01:41:29.679 --> 01:41:31.030
>> it's in the brakes.
01:41:31.040 --> 01:41:33.109
>> Yeah. And and I and I was thinking about
01:41:33.119 --> 01:41:35.350
that. Uh what was the truth of
01:41:35.360 --> 01:41:37.510
Protestantism? Is it just complete
01:41:37.520 --> 01:41:39.669
ultimate heresy? you know, Orthobo
01:41:39.679 --> 01:41:41.990
heresy or was there something true that
01:41:42.000 --> 01:41:45.990
needed to be addressed
01:41:46.000 --> 01:41:48.550
and you know whether it you know messed
01:41:48.560 --> 01:41:52.229
everything up like [laughter]
01:41:52.239 --> 01:41:55.430
>> like and and we finally and so we're in
01:41:55.440 --> 01:41:58.310
a time probably the POian I don't know
01:41:58.320 --> 01:42:00.470
who else you know the the postw World
01:42:00.480 --> 01:42:02.390
War II consensus thing that's
01:42:02.400 --> 01:42:03.910
conversation that's happening and it's
01:42:03.920 --> 01:42:06.310
like well there's a break from something
01:42:06.320 --> 01:42:08.229
there's something cracking and there's
01:42:08.239 --> 01:42:09.830
probably some truth here and it's going
01:42:09.840 --> 01:42:11.750
to take some time to to figure that out
01:42:11.760 --> 01:42:14.149
but feels like we're like in that those
01:42:14.159 --> 01:42:15.430
spaces.
01:42:15.440 --> 01:42:17.270
>> Yeah.
01:42:17.280 --> 01:42:19.590
Um
01:42:19.600 --> 01:42:21.350
I want to come back to that but I
01:42:21.360 --> 01:42:23.109
something I was thinking about while we
01:42:23.119 --> 01:42:25.669
were talking about solvents and
01:42:25.679 --> 01:42:28.310
congealers. We're just making up stuff
01:42:28.320 --> 01:42:30.390
that we don't know. That's I I feel like
01:42:30.400 --> 01:42:31.590
Oh, that's one thing I want to add to
01:42:31.600 --> 01:42:34.629
our estuary protocol is like no googling
01:42:34.639 --> 01:42:36.950
anything unless you have total 100%
01:42:36.960 --> 01:42:39.430
consensus from the group so that we just
01:42:39.440 --> 01:42:40.870
like make up
01:42:40.880 --> 01:42:42.310
>> Yeah. in the conversation like
01:42:42.320 --> 01:42:43.830
>> it's okay to be wrong. It's okay.
01:42:43.840 --> 01:42:45.030
>> It's okay to be wrong. Like you just
01:42:45.040 --> 01:42:46.950
need to make it up and see if you can
01:42:46.960 --> 01:42:48.229
convince people
01:42:48.239 --> 01:42:49.270
>> by your certainty.
01:42:49.280 --> 01:42:50.470
>> Propaganda.
01:42:50.480 --> 01:42:52.229
>> Yeah. [laughter]
01:42:52.239 --> 01:42:56.709
Um but I I kind of map this solvent
01:42:56.719 --> 01:42:58.310
congealing
01:42:58.320 --> 01:43:03.430
energy energy to like
01:43:03.440 --> 01:43:05.669
the right and left brain or there's
01:43:05.679 --> 01:43:07.990
there's a brain hemisphere. And so when
01:43:08.000 --> 01:43:10.629
I, you know, tell when I talk about
01:43:10.639 --> 01:43:14.709
being right or left, um, I feel like
01:43:14.719 --> 01:43:16.470
there's
01:43:16.480 --> 01:43:18.390
I'm just I just want to be a whole brain
01:43:18.400 --> 01:43:23.270
person, not a like one-sided person. And
01:43:23.280 --> 01:43:26.390
um you know Ian McGillst
01:43:26.400 --> 01:43:29.430
has done a lot of like work on this
01:43:29.440 --> 01:43:31.669
right blin hemisphere stuff. And he
01:43:31.679 --> 01:43:33.189
talks about the corpus colosum being
01:43:33.199 --> 01:43:37.030
like the that that crack between that
01:43:37.040 --> 01:43:41.270
both uh bridges and separates the these
01:43:41.280 --> 01:43:44.550
these two hemispheres that are both like
01:43:44.560 --> 01:43:46.229
kind of at odds with each other but also
01:43:46.239 --> 01:43:48.070
kind of need each other.
01:43:48.080 --> 01:43:51.030
>> Yeah. There's a lot that so much about
01:43:51.040 --> 01:43:55.109
the liinal web liinal space li these
01:43:55.119 --> 01:43:57.430
cracks like we're that's like what
01:43:57.440 --> 01:43:59.510
liinal like
01:43:59.520 --> 01:44:01.590
in like you think about like the light
01:44:01.600 --> 01:44:03.109
breaking through or something like in
01:44:03.119 --> 01:44:05.830
these things that happen and even like
01:44:05.840 --> 01:44:07.510
in the development of the the Christian
01:44:07.520 --> 01:44:09.109
church like uh I had this great
01:44:09.119 --> 01:44:11.669
conversation with um guy named Boss
01:44:11.679 --> 01:44:13.910
Vanos who's a a theologian in the
01:44:13.920 --> 01:44:15.510
Netherlands and his sons kind of
01:44:15.520 --> 01:44:17.189
participate in the corner they had the
01:44:17.199 --> 01:44:19.109
European estuary conference last year
01:44:19.119 --> 01:44:22.950
was like at their house and um
01:44:22.960 --> 01:44:25.830
he's done this project where he's doing
01:44:25.840 --> 01:44:28.149
certain he's taken certain sections of
01:44:28.159 --> 01:44:30.310
New Testament he's like doing a first
01:44:30.320 --> 01:44:34.149
person account like perspectival
01:44:34.159 --> 01:44:35.910
>> through it
01:44:35.920 --> 01:44:40.950
and there's so much related to
01:44:40.960 --> 01:44:43.750
you know perspective of well here's Paul
01:44:43.760 --> 01:44:48.229
Henistic Jew Titus is you know Greek and
01:44:48.239 --> 01:44:50.629
Timothy's both and then he's coming in
01:44:50.639 --> 01:44:52.790
there's Peter and James are trying to
01:44:52.800 --> 01:44:54.070
figure out the Jewish church and they
01:44:54.080 --> 01:44:55.109
come in there and there's like this kind
01:44:55.119 --> 01:44:58.550
of like tension and it's like because
01:44:58.560 --> 01:44:59.910
something's like breaking through
01:44:59.920 --> 01:45:02.149
something's happening something's
01:45:02.159 --> 01:45:05.350
changing and these figures
01:45:05.360 --> 01:45:07.990
by their very nature are liinal like
01:45:08.000 --> 01:45:11.430
Paul was like a liinal in his
01:45:11.440 --> 01:45:13.270
development like
01:45:13.280 --> 01:45:15.990
>> as a Greek to the Greek and like a
01:45:16.000 --> 01:45:17.910
Hebrew of Hebrews
01:45:17.920 --> 01:45:23.189
I was able to to to do that as uniquely
01:45:23.199 --> 01:45:25.910
made for that time. So,
01:45:25.920 --> 01:45:28.550
uh, the how these things all play
01:45:28.560 --> 01:45:31.830
together, uh, is fascinating and I feel
01:45:31.840 --> 01:45:34.390
like that's part of this space is that
01:45:34.400 --> 01:45:37.189
time and who knows how long it will be
01:45:37.199 --> 01:45:39.910
and will it congeal into something more
01:45:39.920 --> 01:45:41.510
or will it
01:45:41.520 --> 01:45:44.310
>> remain have a role of solveny or will it
01:45:44.320 --> 01:45:46.550
ping pong back and forth? But
01:45:46.560 --> 01:45:48.709
>> Riel, this has been a fun conversation
01:45:48.719 --> 01:45:50.870
today. Um,
01:45:50.880 --> 01:45:52.629
and I'm I appreciate you accepting the
01:45:52.639 --> 01:45:54.629
invitation to come back on and and
01:45:54.639 --> 01:45:58.149
meander and talk about things, corner
01:45:58.159 --> 01:46:00.950
things, cosmic naval.
01:46:00.960 --> 01:46:01.990
>> Yeah.
01:46:02.000 --> 01:46:05.189
uh music like even some of the technical
01:46:05.199 --> 01:46:06.870
I felt like
01:46:06.880 --> 01:46:08.390
>> I was having this thought when I was go
01:46:08.400 --> 01:46:10.310
we were going through that which was you
01:46:10.320 --> 01:46:12.950
know sometimes Rogan is talking to
01:46:12.960 --> 01:46:14.709
someone about something that
01:46:14.719 --> 01:46:15.990
>> that they're they're talking about
01:46:16.000 --> 01:46:17.910
something really highly technical
01:46:17.920 --> 01:46:19.590
>> and you think nobody's going to care
01:46:19.600 --> 01:46:20.550
about this.
01:46:20.560 --> 01:46:20.950
>> Yeah.
01:46:20.960 --> 01:46:22.950
>> I'm like oh that's kind of like when you
01:46:22.960 --> 01:46:24.229
get to kind of peak behind the curtain
01:46:24.239 --> 01:46:25.910
of something that you never maybe have
01:46:25.920 --> 01:46:27.510
experience with or you see these people
01:46:27.520 --> 01:46:28.709
with those things in their ear like
01:46:28.719 --> 01:46:30.070
what's that about? What you know how
01:46:30.080 --> 01:46:31.109
does that work? Yeah.
01:46:31.119 --> 01:46:32.950
>> So maybe I don't know that was actually
01:46:32.960 --> 01:46:37.270
like running in the back of my mind like
01:46:37.280 --> 01:46:39.030
>> okay so there's this there's this
01:46:39.040 --> 01:46:40.790
principle in songwriting. Sorry this
01:46:40.800 --> 01:46:42.149
could just turn we could go for another
01:46:42.159 --> 01:46:44.950
hour probably starting now. Um there's
01:46:44.960 --> 01:46:48.310
this principle in songwriting
01:46:48.320 --> 01:46:52.229
about um like the the more general you
01:46:52.239 --> 01:46:54.709
write the less relatable it is and the
01:46:54.719 --> 01:46:57.669
more specific you write the more kind of
01:46:57.679 --> 01:47:00.149
universal uh universally kind of
01:47:00.159 --> 01:47:03.669
relatable it is. So like that John Mayer
01:47:03.679 --> 01:47:06.390
like uses a lot of sensory language and
01:47:06.400 --> 01:47:09.990
like very specific like places and this
01:47:10.000 --> 01:47:12.550
is like a Berkeley kind of school of
01:47:12.560 --> 01:47:16.629
music concept I think. Um and it's it's
01:47:16.639 --> 01:47:20.950
those like sensory specific details that
01:47:20.960 --> 01:47:23.910
maybe seem like that's just so specific
01:47:23.920 --> 01:47:26.629
to your life actually paints the picture
01:47:26.639 --> 01:47:28.790
that allows us to kind of like put that
01:47:28.800 --> 01:47:32.310
image on. whereas like general
01:47:32.320 --> 01:47:36.550
platitudes just mean nothing and there's
01:47:36.560 --> 01:47:38.870
like no you're just kind of floating out
01:47:38.880 --> 01:47:40.149
in the wind.
01:47:40.159 --> 01:47:42.310
>> So I I I think it's it's actually these
01:47:42.320 --> 01:47:45.270
like nerdy little details that actually
01:47:45.280 --> 01:47:46.709
I don't know if the algorithm is going
01:47:46.719 --> 01:47:48.844
to pick up on how awesome they are, but
01:47:48.854 --> 01:47:49.590
[laughter]
01:47:49.600 --> 01:47:52.709
um I think they kind of make things
01:47:52.719 --> 01:47:56.070
sparkle a little bit. Well, thank you
01:47:56.080 --> 01:47:59.669
for hopefully helping me make this
01:47:59.679 --> 01:48:01.189
corner of the internet sparkle a little
01:48:01.199 --> 01:48:03.990
bit by being corner centric. You know,
01:48:04.000 --> 01:48:05.350
some of the things like
01:48:05.360 --> 01:48:07.189
>> here's another model that Paul, it's
01:48:07.199 --> 01:48:09.109
like there's times Paul is making stuff
01:48:09.119 --> 01:48:11.990
specifically that's way more
01:48:12.000 --> 01:48:13.750
out like, hey, and then he'll say
01:48:13.760 --> 01:48:15.109
sometimes you may hear me talking about
01:48:15.119 --> 01:48:16.870
this little corner when something's like
01:48:16.880 --> 01:48:20.790
very hyper. I think that's another model
01:48:20.800 --> 01:48:23.430
um to consider as far as in this digital
01:48:23.440 --> 01:48:26.550
space is at least that I am I guess but
01:48:26.560 --> 01:48:29.030
this is like
01:48:29.040 --> 01:48:30.950
you know
01:48:30.960 --> 01:48:33.590
looping back around to
01:48:33.600 --> 01:48:37.510
something very corner centric and I
01:48:37.520 --> 01:48:39.830
you were you know a part of that that's
01:48:39.840 --> 01:48:41.189
so interesting of being able to have
01:48:41.199 --> 01:48:43.109
like an influence on someone related to
01:48:43.119 --> 01:48:44.790
this thing and then you write about it.
01:48:44.800 --> 01:48:46.790
I sent I sent your Substack to like my
01:48:46.800 --> 01:48:48.470
family. I was like, "Hey, check this
01:48:48.480 --> 01:48:49.189
out." Like,
01:48:49.199 --> 01:48:49.910
>> really?
01:48:49.920 --> 01:48:52.470
>> Yeah. Like my parents and my my my
01:48:52.480 --> 01:48:53.910
siblings and stuff because they know I'm
01:48:53.920 --> 01:48:55.030
doing this stuff
01:48:55.040 --> 01:48:57.590
>> to keep up in different ways. But it's
01:48:57.600 --> 01:48:58.310
like
01:48:58.320 --> 01:49:00.229
>> I was like this was really cool because,
01:49:00.239 --> 01:49:01.990
you know, you had like the thumbnail and
01:49:02.000 --> 01:49:03.830
then you talk, you know, Christian
01:49:03.840 --> 01:49:05.189
baptized me into this thing. It was
01:49:05.199 --> 01:49:07.430
just, you know, obviously that's a
01:49:07.440 --> 01:49:10.310
tongue and cheek, but it's like
01:49:10.320 --> 01:49:11.750
uh just felt like, yeah, I'm doing
01:49:11.760 --> 01:49:13.910
something. Um, and you were a part of
01:49:13.920 --> 01:49:16.310
that. And so it's fun to continue to
01:49:16.320 --> 01:49:20.310
like carry on this
01:49:20.320 --> 01:49:22.950
relationality and and we actually met in
01:49:22.960 --> 01:49:25.109
person. And you found out that I was 6'5
01:49:25.119 --> 01:49:27.095
and I found out that you were 5'2.
01:49:27.105 --> 01:49:27.910
[laughter]
01:49:27.920 --> 01:49:31.430
>> I know. Yet we look exactly the same on
01:49:31.440 --> 01:49:34.310
camera. You know, look at that. Same
01:49:34.320 --> 01:49:35.830
size right there.
01:49:35.840 --> 01:49:38.629
>> If you find my blog my vlogs for Midwest
01:49:38.639 --> 01:49:40.790
Estster, go track down like the second
01:49:40.800 --> 01:49:42.790
one or something. and me and Riel and
01:49:42.800 --> 01:49:45.270
I'm like, "Hey,
01:49:45.280 --> 01:49:45.830
>> yeah,
01:49:45.840 --> 01:49:47.510
>> Roel, what do you think about this
01:49:47.520 --> 01:49:48.629
little corner?"
01:49:48.639 --> 01:49:50.149
>> That was great. I did watch that. I
01:49:50.159 --> 01:49:52.310
actually appreciate I appreciate your
01:49:52.320 --> 01:49:55.270
role in this corner as like [gasps]
01:49:55.280 --> 01:50:00.070
the unofficial um kind of reporter and
01:50:00.080 --> 01:50:02.870
connector and I don't know, you just you
01:50:02.880 --> 01:50:03.590
have like
01:50:03.600 --> 01:50:05.910
>> a story. I guess I think this thing is a
01:50:05.920 --> 01:50:09.270
story. It's not only a culture.
01:50:09.280 --> 01:50:12.390
It's that's why okay I think that's
01:50:12.400 --> 01:50:15.750
partly why I use the word TLCing. It's
01:50:15.760 --> 01:50:18.310
like this it's not a noun. It's like
01:50:18.320 --> 01:50:20.629
this
01:50:20.639 --> 01:50:24.149
ongoing living tradition.
01:50:24.159 --> 01:50:27.030
>> This story I just put living tradition
01:50:27.040 --> 01:50:29.990
in there because it feels more kind of
01:50:30.000 --> 01:50:32.070
significant. But it's like a a living,
01:50:32.080 --> 01:50:34.629
breathing thing that I think is worth
01:50:34.639 --> 01:50:37.109
documenting cuz we are I feel like we're
01:50:37.119 --> 01:50:38.950
making
01:50:38.960 --> 01:50:41.270
who knows. We could I could be totally
01:50:41.280 --> 01:50:42.790
wrong. It could just totally fizzle, but
01:50:42.800 --> 01:50:45.910
I feel like this scene is going to be
01:50:45.920 --> 01:50:49.109
part of whatever comes next.
01:50:49.119 --> 01:50:52.709
>> Yeah, we'll see. Uh we'll see.
01:50:52.719 --> 01:50:57.430
>> Can I Can I um plug something?
01:50:57.440 --> 01:50:58.390
>> Plug away.
01:50:58.400 --> 01:50:59.270
>> Okay. So, I just wanted
01:50:59.280 --> 01:51:00.390
>> What's going on? What do you got going
01:51:00.400 --> 01:51:00.950
on, Ryan?
01:51:00.960 --> 01:51:04.950
>> Well, I just want to drop a little note
01:51:04.960 --> 01:51:08.790
on your channel on CBACK channel about
01:51:08.800 --> 01:51:12.149
an upcoming conference that my
01:51:12.159 --> 01:51:13.830
organization
01:51:13.840 --> 01:51:17.830
is helping put on. Um, are you familiar
01:51:17.840 --> 01:51:21.030
with Rston College in Savannah?
01:51:21.040 --> 01:51:22.149
>> Very.
01:51:22.159 --> 01:51:25.189
>> Really? Yeah, that's Joe spoke at
01:51:25.199 --> 01:51:27.510
recently or and uh
01:51:27.520 --> 01:51:29.270
>> yeah, I loved his talk that he did there
01:51:29.280 --> 01:51:33.030
about that being like a seedbed for,
01:51:33.040 --> 01:51:35.750
>> you know, rebuilding culture actually.
01:51:35.760 --> 01:51:39.030
>> Okay. So, apparently Ian McGillchrist
01:51:39.040 --> 01:51:42.870
>> is now the chancellor taking over Jordan
01:51:42.880 --> 01:51:45.589
Peterson's role, I think. I I don't know
01:51:45.599 --> 01:51:48.310
the whole history of it but
01:51:48.320 --> 01:51:49.990
we
01:51:50.000 --> 01:51:53.350
our organization and um the center for
01:51:53.360 --> 01:51:56.070
process studies and cristogenesis I
01:51:56.080 --> 01:51:59.750
can't remember it's Elia Dillio's um
01:51:59.760 --> 01:52:02.870
kind of organization are putting on a
01:52:02.880 --> 01:52:05.750
conference called the future of meaning
01:52:05.760 --> 01:52:08.470
the philosophical renewal of truth
01:52:08.480 --> 01:52:11.189
beauty and goodness and Ian McGillchrist
01:52:11.199 --> 01:52:14.550
is going to be kind of our headliner and
01:52:14.560 --> 01:52:16.870
We're in the process of finding other
01:52:16.880 --> 01:52:19.430
people to come speak. I think, you know,
01:52:19.440 --> 01:52:23.109
David Bentley Hart is one person who may
01:52:23.119 --> 01:52:25.589
be coming. Um, and we have kind of a
01:52:25.599 --> 01:52:27.109
list of other people. I think Pasio
01:52:27.119 --> 01:52:29.589
might even be on the the list of people
01:52:29.599 --> 01:52:34.070
to to invite. Um, but I think it's going
01:52:34.080 --> 01:52:36.070
to I I would love it if there was just
01:52:36.080 --> 01:52:39.350
like just a sprinkling of estuary folk
01:52:39.360 --> 01:52:44.310
there to kind of bring this this medium
01:52:44.320 --> 01:52:48.837
of interaction into
01:52:48.847 --> 01:52:50.870
[snorts] I mean Rosson College maybe I
01:52:50.880 --> 01:52:53.589
don't it sounds kind of like you're a
01:52:53.599 --> 01:52:56.950
pretty cool like classicsbased very high
01:52:56.960 --> 01:53:00.149
in debate and conversation and so they
01:53:00.159 --> 01:53:01.910
may already just be masters at this
01:53:01.920 --> 01:53:02.629
stuff. But
01:53:02.639 --> 01:53:04.709
>> everybody takes everybody takes like
01:53:04.719 --> 01:53:06.550
four years of Greek and Latin at that
01:53:06.560 --> 01:53:08.229
school or something like
01:53:08.239 --> 01:53:10.950
>> I know. No, they like go to Greece to
01:53:10.960 --> 01:53:12.310
take like Greek
01:53:12.320 --> 01:53:14.149
>> and and they read the classics in the
01:53:14.159 --> 01:53:15.910
original. I think that's like the old
01:53:15.920 --> 01:53:18.390
schoolness of what they're doing. And
01:53:18.400 --> 01:53:20.950
yeah, I'm I'm really fascinated by them.
01:53:20.960 --> 01:53:23.669
Uh and because I think that the guy
01:53:23.679 --> 01:53:25.830
who's been like the big face of of their
01:53:25.840 --> 01:53:27.510
school, he was like on the biblical
01:53:27.520 --> 01:53:29.189
lectures with Peterson and
01:53:29.199 --> 01:53:32.390
>> Yeah. um he's he has really interesting
01:53:32.400 --> 01:53:34.070
conversations about culture and you know
01:53:34.080 --> 01:53:36.629
it's very kind of eliteish like the you
01:53:36.639 --> 01:53:38.629
know classical style suits and
01:53:38.639 --> 01:53:41.669
everything and um in a way similar to
01:53:41.679 --> 01:53:44.870
arc in a kind of in a way but more more
01:53:44.880 --> 01:53:47.669
low-key like aesthetic more grounded
01:53:47.679 --> 01:53:49.990
aesthetic but it's like
01:53:50.000 --> 01:53:53.189
>> the funny I saw Ian McGill at Ark and I
01:53:53.199 --> 01:53:55.350
I w he was on like you know there was
01:53:55.360 --> 01:53:56.709
like the tables down front and then
01:53:56.719 --> 01:53:59.589
there's like a pathway and then there's
01:53:59.599 --> 01:54:01.189
some uh just a little bit of stadium
01:54:01.199 --> 01:54:02.709
seating and he was on the front row of
01:54:02.719 --> 01:54:04.470
those stadiums and I was walking by and
01:54:04.480 --> 01:54:07.438
here's what he was doing.
01:54:07.448 --> 01:54:09.350
[laughter]
01:54:09.360 --> 01:54:11.369
He was just fast asleep.
01:54:11.379 --> 01:54:11.990
[gasps and snorts]
01:54:12.000 --> 01:54:15.030
I was like he's just you know he's here
01:54:15.040 --> 01:54:16.709
because he someone told him he had to
01:54:16.719 --> 01:54:17.430
be.
01:54:17.440 --> 01:54:18.950
>> Yeah. Yep.
01:54:18.960 --> 01:54:22.149
>> Be up in Scotland you know in his uh you
01:54:22.159 --> 01:54:24.149
know this McBthian
01:54:24.159 --> 01:54:26.229
retreat that he's got up there. Oh my
01:54:26.239 --> 01:54:28.470
god. That sounds like an awesome
01:54:28.480 --> 01:54:28.870
>> Yeah,
01:54:28.880 --> 01:54:31.750
>> I would love actually when what when so
01:54:31.760 --> 01:54:34.149
it's going to be May
01:54:34.159 --> 01:54:38.224
I miday 2027 so it's a little ways off
01:54:38.234 --> 01:54:38.870
[gasps]
01:54:38.880 --> 01:54:42.070
but um it will be in Savannah at like at
01:54:42.080 --> 01:54:43.430
Rston College.
01:54:43.440 --> 01:54:44.070
>> Y
01:54:44.080 --> 01:54:46.390
>> um and so
01:54:46.400 --> 01:54:47.750
>> I'll probably be there
01:54:47.760 --> 01:54:50.470
>> I that would be amazing.
01:54:50.480 --> 01:54:52.229
>> Bring my little microphones and get try
01:54:52.239 --> 01:54:53.669
to get up in some people's faces.
01:54:53.679 --> 01:54:55.750
>> Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
01:54:55.760 --> 01:54:58.390
little TLC infiltration.
01:54:58.400 --> 01:55:02.390
>> This is the story, man. Like I feel like
01:55:02.400 --> 01:55:04.709
things like Ralston, McGill, like where
01:55:04.719 --> 01:55:07.030
is this thread? You know, even you even
01:55:07.040 --> 01:55:09.830
put the lore in there. McIll is
01:55:09.840 --> 01:55:12.149
replacing Peterson. That's like
01:55:12.159 --> 01:55:14.709
>> that's like lore on this thread, you
01:55:14.719 --> 01:55:17.589
know? I'll I'll give us the
01:55:17.599 --> 01:55:20.149
>> this poster. It's not going nowhere.
01:55:20.159 --> 01:55:22.709
>> Finally, I can use my hands. Oh, yes.
01:55:22.719 --> 01:55:24.229
That's right. That poster is not going
01:55:24.239 --> 01:55:26.870
anywhere. Even with all the hate and
01:55:26.880 --> 01:55:28.709
with all, you know, and that he's Can
01:55:28.719 --> 01:55:30.229
you believe he's not a perfect person?
01:55:30.239 --> 01:55:31.830
Can you believe he
01:55:31.840 --> 01:55:33.990
>> sold out to Daily W? Can you believe
01:55:34.000 --> 01:55:35.669
that? Can you believe that?
01:55:35.679 --> 01:55:36.790
>> I know.
01:55:36.800 --> 01:55:38.310
>> Yeah, he is part of He's part of the
01:55:38.320 --> 01:55:38.870
lore.
01:55:38.880 --> 01:55:41.510
>> There's a story, man. And uh
01:55:41.520 --> 01:55:45.109
>> this this is part of it. Uh that little
01:55:45.119 --> 01:55:48.310
bit of lore and that I would love to go
01:55:48.320 --> 01:55:50.229
to a conference at Ralston College. I
01:55:50.239 --> 01:55:51.990
would love to know somebody there
01:55:52.000 --> 01:55:56.550
personally and like I did meet
01:55:56.560 --> 01:55:58.070
but like it's not the same.
01:55:58.080 --> 01:55:59.669
>> Yeah. No, you and me, we'll go to
01:55:59.679 --> 01:56:01.410
McDonald's together like we did
01:56:01.420 --> 01:56:03.270
[laughter] that one morning.
01:56:03.280 --> 01:56:05.830
>> Man, that was a good time.
01:56:05.840 --> 01:56:07.030
>> I just love that
01:56:07.040 --> 01:56:09.270
>> talking about liturgy in the car and
01:56:09.280 --> 01:56:12.390
yeah, that was that. No, that sounds
01:56:12.400 --> 01:56:14.470
that sounds like an awesome conference.
01:56:14.480 --> 01:56:17.350
Say the name again. Yeah. So, it's it's
01:56:17.360 --> 01:56:19.030
going to be um
01:56:19.040 --> 01:56:21.910
>> the future of meaning, the philosophical
01:56:21.920 --> 01:56:24.470
renewal of truth, beauty, and goodness
01:56:24.480 --> 01:56:28.950
on May of 2027, somewhere between the
01:56:28.960 --> 01:56:32.149
16th and the 27th. Um I'll just read
01:56:32.159 --> 01:56:35.510
like a little paragraph uh that I I got
01:56:35.520 --> 01:56:37.510
for this. Inspiring new forms of
01:56:37.520 --> 01:56:40.070
philosophy are appearing in our time.
01:56:40.080 --> 01:56:42.950
philosophies that offer renewed hope for
01:56:42.960 --> 01:56:44.790
our search for meaning in the modern
01:56:44.800 --> 01:56:47.589
world. A common theme of these emerging
01:56:47.599 --> 01:56:49.589
philosophies is the crucial role of
01:56:49.599 --> 01:56:52.229
values in the ongoing evolution of our
01:56:52.239 --> 01:56:54.870
universe. By showing how truth, beauty,
01:56:54.880 --> 01:56:59.109
and goodness are cosmic realities that
01:56:59.119 --> 01:57:01.350
are essential to a truly scientific
01:57:01.360 --> 01:57:03.589
worldview. These fresh forms of
01:57:03.599 --> 01:57:06.070
philosophy can help us transcend both
01:57:06.080 --> 01:57:09.350
materialistic thinking and the retreat
01:57:09.360 --> 01:57:12.629
into various forms of fundamentalism.
01:57:12.639 --> 01:57:15.990
>> Oh, sounds familiar.
01:57:16.000 --> 01:57:17.990
>> Sounds developmental.
01:57:18.000 --> 01:57:20.011
So developmental
01:57:20.021 --> 01:57:20.149
[snorts]
01:57:20.159 --> 01:57:23.109
>> man that that if it's got McGillchrist
01:57:23.119 --> 01:57:25.910
at Ralston with possible PJO and I don't
01:57:25.920 --> 01:57:27.750
you know some other folks like I guess
01:57:27.760 --> 01:57:30.149
connected to what you're doing uh I I'm
01:57:30.159 --> 01:57:32.950
pretty interested in that and the like
01:57:32.960 --> 01:57:34.790
there's this whole conversation about
01:57:34.800 --> 01:57:37.990
philosophy and theology like shaping the
01:57:38.000 --> 01:57:41.589
role of science in a in a new way. So,
01:57:41.599 --> 01:57:43.589
>> I'm going to I'm going to end us there.
01:57:43.599 --> 01:57:45.430
And I'm just so thankful that you came
01:57:45.440 --> 01:57:47.830
and played here in the yours truly
01:57:47.840 --> 01:57:51.510
virtual studio from sailing in from the
01:57:51.520 --> 01:57:54.550
Cosmic Naval Studio in Austin.
01:57:54.560 --> 01:57:57.109
>> Thank you, Christian. Always a pleasure.
01:57:57.119 --> 01:57:58.950
>> Yes, sir. Thanks for sticking around all
01:57:58.960 --> 01:58:00.790
the way to this point of the video. I
01:58:00.800 --> 01:58:02.070
want to encourage you if you thought
01:58:02.080 --> 01:58:03.350
that video was interesting, you'll
01:58:03.360 --> 01:58:05.189
probably like this one. Uh check out
01:58:05.199 --> 01:58:07.350
these featured corner conversation
01:58:07.360 --> 01:58:09.430
playlists. And if you want to keep up
01:58:09.440 --> 01:58:11.510
the podcast, you can follow along here.
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And don't forget, subscribe.