The Fourth Amendment Has Entered The Chat

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You saved my day many times When you ran away
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Guess I broke my promise I.
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Have been dishonest To you You are the master of
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my plan Then you let go of my hand And
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I Man, those videos are out of control today.
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Yeah.
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What's going on, man? Welcome to the Warlocker Show.
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I am Tom.
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And I'm Chuck. Not much.
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You're all cleaned up. Did you have something at work today?
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I had interviews yesterday and today and I thought.
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Within your company? Yeah.
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So in the security sector, both for.
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Uh program security and site security working at the place
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that i work at um without talking about who i
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work for um but it uh i had two of
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them and i was advised that they were going to
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be in person at least for the first one and
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for the second one it was going to be a
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video and i was like all right sweet so i
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was i already kind of trimmed down a lot and
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um i was like you know because it's hot out
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here and i was like i'm just gonna finish shaving
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my face just to look presentable and make sure, cause
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I really want this spot and the security spot. And
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then they called me like the day before or two
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days before. And they're like, Hey, it's going to be
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a video, a team's video or a team's chat, no
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video for this one. And then video for the other one.
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And then, so I was like, cool. So I did
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that first one, went through with it and it was
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for every single manager hiring for, for the area that
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I'm in right now. And then, I was like, that's cool.
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So I basically shaved for nothing. And then the second
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one that was video on when I get there, no
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one had their videos on. So I'm just sitting there
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by myself with.
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The, yeah, they want to see you.
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I'm like, this is bullshit.
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So now I shave.
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Yeah.
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Well, we did, we did an episode.
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I think by the time this comes out, if everything
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comes out in order, our last episode that came out
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was a major Scott who thing who wrote, echo and
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roddy i got the book we had a um yeah
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we had a conversation uh about uh uh my my
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book that i finished up um he gave me some
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some good feedback and uh i think uh you know
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give me some good directions and stuff like that so
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i i feel like i've said that it's going to
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be available on kickstarter but i don't know if it's
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going to be like i still may do that it's
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just i don't know where we're at as of this
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recording because this recording is being done about a month
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and a half before it comes out right Yeah.
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I just got the book too. I'm going to send
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him a whoopee and then I'm going to send him
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the book. And then I'm going to send that to
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him with return shipping. I just got to, I think
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they can give return shipping at the post office, I think,
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or FedEx or whatever.
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You can, you can send him, you basically can like
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buy when you're there. So basically self-address a prepaid envelope
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that is like, if it fits in the postal service says,
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if it fits in.
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The envelope, it ships, right?
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And so you basically give them his address and say,
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I want you to then have me pay for the
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postage for it to come back. And then they'll stamp it.
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It'll be, I'll be ready to go. You put it
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in the package and you're good to go.
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Are you going to read it?
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Are you going to listen to it? Because you can,
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they have the available for audio for the audio book.
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Yeah. I will probably read it. I like, I still
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like reading. I do listen to books.
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If you can believe this, uh, uh, I, listen to
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audio books to go to sleep um they play in
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my earbuds all night and uh quite frequently have messed
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up my dreams oh shit i've had lucid dreams as
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a result of listening to an audio book where i
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wake up from a dream and all of a sudden
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like the stuff that's happening in the book has was
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kind of creeping into my dream so it's like i
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was waking up and i started to hear yeah it
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was fun uh i'm gonna.
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I'm gonna start reading some erotic memoirs of uh Are.
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You getting pulled over right behind you? You got, you
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got red and blue lights flashing, right?
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It's it's honestly, every time my voice goes to a
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certain octave, it, it, it, I don't even know where
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the controls are to change the colors. Cause the kids
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took it. So now it just randomly goes off and
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I can't turn it off.
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Well, well, I'm, I'm excited to have our guests back
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because I, I feel like I learn a lot and
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we have a good time. Uh, and I, I promised him,
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I'm going to try as we bring him in, I'm
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going to try and, uh, bring it, bring it to,
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we talked when he was on live, we talked about
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movies and stuff like that. And he's like, yeah, you
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guys are, you guys are well, that's way too new
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for me. Uh, but I have a pretty wide variety
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and range of movies and stuff that I like.
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So let's welcome back bud Cummins. How are you, bud?
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I'm good. You had to remind me I'm older than
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you before we got started.
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No, no, no, no. It's not the years. It's the mileage.
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And I feel like my body has had a lot
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of city miles. These are not highway miles. These are
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city miles.
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So which one of us has had back surgery, right?
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So that determines who's older, right?
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Yeah, yeah. Chuck was about to pass out last time
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I was with you guys. So he looks better now.
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Yes, he's.
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I was really pretty amazed. I mean, you were just
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a few days out of back surgery, as I recall.
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And you were.
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Yeah, well, a week, two weeks, maybe.
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About probably like a week because I had it on
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a weird day of the week and then the second week.
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So I had surgery the day we normally do it.
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And then the following week as I came into the
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podcast and I had dialed back the opiates to one
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a day because I wanted to start weaning myself off
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as fast as I could. And went back and forth
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to one to two to one to three to one
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to two.
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To no more.
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Good and they and they mess with you man i'll
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tell you what um i still have some upstairs for
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time i mean i i don't well i actually have
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they had to give they have years ago they had
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to give me sleeping medication for i'll just get insomnia
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randomly in my body be like no we're not i'm
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not falling asleep there's nothing you can do about it
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so they gave me a nice little sledge.
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I have something to do with those audio books see that.
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Well, here's the thing.
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That actually helps me fall asleep.
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That actually helps me fall asleep.
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It's a lot of, that's, that's one of the reasons
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I started doing it is I have way less nights
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where I can't fall asleep in music or audio books
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or something like that.
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It helps kind of tune the noise down. I don't know.
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Some people have to have like a white noise fan.
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I hate white noise a hundred percent. It's like the
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bathroom fan. If the bathroom fan is on in my
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house and somebody leaves it on longer and like Only
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leave it on as long as it's necessary to clean
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the poop smell out. Other than that, I don't want
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to hear it. But I did find out there's something
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called brown. Have you guys heard of brown noise?
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Yes. It's a lot deeper. It's like imagine being on
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a submarine and.
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Hearing the whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, like that
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low level. That is much easier for me to sleep to.
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But we're glad to have you back. Thank you for
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coming back. And we wanted to kind.
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Of pick up.
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A little bit where we left off, we started touching
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on some stuff, but I thought I wanted to get,
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first and foremost, an update on... We said we wanted
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to check back in with you with the situation with your.
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Brian Malinowski.
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Yeah, Brian Malinowski and your case. Should I say your case?
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I'm one of the lawyers on it. I was the
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first lawyer, and I guess I'm still the CEO, but
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I've hired some pretty... pretty fast guns to do a
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lot of the legwork because my trial days are kind
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of at the end. So this is a full on
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battle and I got some really good lawyers to help.
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Me with it.
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Can I ask you, is being the lead chair in
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a trial like a prosecution, is it fun?
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Yeah, well, it was very fun when I was a
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United States attorney because I didn't have to do the
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months of Greg worked to prepare for a trial. Other
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people did it for me. I mean, being in court
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is a blast. It's just the preparation. And I'm kind
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of a procrastinator anyway. So when that has fallen on me,
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I tend to be in a very stressful situation a
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lot because I'm usually behind the curve on preparation. But
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when I was a United States attorney, I had a
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really great staff and I tried cases with some of
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the better lawyers and they would do most of that
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and then you know i just get involved a week
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or so before the trial yeah come in i'm i'm
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if i'm good at anything in court trial work it's
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in the court the preparation part i was never really
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that slick on so uh that was really a lot
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of fun.
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Yeah i feel like the the arguing cross-examining debating that
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part would be fun the paperwork well it's like police
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work you I told people I would chase bad guys
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and go code three for free. It's all the paperwork
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and bullshit I have to do afterwards that you have
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to pay me for.
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A hundred percent.
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You can get cocky in trial though. If you think
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you're good, you know, one of the most common mistakes
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all trial lawyers make is you get on a roll
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and you really feel like in your scoring points and say, yes,
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that question, wham, you got a really good answer. Wham,
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you ask another and you just think, I'm on a
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roll here. I need to keep going when you really
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you're done and you should sit down and shut up
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and then you finally ask that one question that undo
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it does whatever no one to shut up the last
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10 questions and I've done that more times than I
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want to admit but most lawyers have to.
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I got I got chastised by a DA.
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For basically shoving my foot in a defense attorney's ass
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on the stand. And it was, to be fair, it
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was a preliminary hearing. I was the undercover and there
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were five defendants and each one had a different lawyer.
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So it was the DA and then five different cross examinations.
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Then I got off the stand, the case agent test
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of D five different.
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Then he got off thin. I got back on.
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So we had to tag team for a day and
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a half and, And by the time we got to
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this one question, it was, you know, they teach you
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in court, Chuck, they teach you in court prep in
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the academy. If the defense attorney asks you, officer, what
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is the purpose of a police report? You fucked up
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in your report, right?
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You know something's coming.
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You know something's coming where they are going to attack
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your report. And so he asked me that question. I'm like, oh,
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here we go.
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And he led me down a little primrose trail. And
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it was an opinion question, right? I had testified to
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my opinion, but I didn't write my opinion in the
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report because I was taught reports are for documentation of
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facts and I can testify to my opinion. And, you know,
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he goes, isn't this documented anywhere? And I said, yeah,
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in the recorded phone call that you should have gotten
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during discovery, but, you know, you could listen to it
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and that's where it's documented.
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And I got off the stand and she goes, I
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understand why you did it. don't ever do that again.
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Yeah so um did the judge threaten to hold you
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in contempt no no.
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No dude i've gotten that the judge was the ex-cop
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and he kind of smiled because the yeah but the
250
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judge was an ex-cop and he kind of smiled because
251
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he knew that this defense attorney was a was kind
252
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of being an ass but uh you you you are
253
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the ceo of the molinowski case you've worked with mrs
254
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molinowski for those of you aren't aware brian molinowski search
255
00:12:14.149 --> 00:12:15.730
warrant served at his house 6 601 a.m by the
256
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the ATF on a, on what amounts to an administrative violation. And, uh,
257
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he ends up being shot and killed, um, by the ATF.
258
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And like we said, we won't say a SWAT team.
259
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It was by ATF agents, uh, in raid gear.
260
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And, uh, where is that stand now? You got you,
261
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if I remember correctly, you had gotten the green light
262
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to sue.
263
00:12:41.269 --> 00:12:44.120
Yeah, there were, there were two and without going down
264
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the rabbit holes, there were two avenues to sue the
265
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federal agents. One is the federal tort claims act. And
266
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I think last time I was on, we'd gotten the
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green light from the judge to pursue the federal tort
268
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claims act, which was not a lay down, but you know,
269
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we were pretty confident that we would get that green light.
270
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And he wrote a very, you know, thorough opinion. And
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of course it's, that's, That's early in the case to
272
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decide it. You know, he's just trying to decide if
273
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we have standing to be in court to sue these guys.
274
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But he did say, you know, it's too early to
275
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determine the facts. But if the facts are what Mrs.
276
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Malinowski says they are, you guys broke the law and
277
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the facts aren't going to change. I mean, the facts
278
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that she alleged that we alleged on her behalf are
279
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documented and they're factual.
280
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Right.
281
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The mistake that were made.
282
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That is basically what amounts to the preliminary hearing for
283
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your suit, where you present your prima facie case and
284
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the judge determines that there's enough to move forward.
285
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Yeah. He's basically saying, well, if everything you say is.
286
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True, then yes, you have a case.
287
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Would you be in court or would you still get,
288
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because we're not going to have a whole trial process
289
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if you prove all this and you're still don't have
290
00:14:02.129 --> 00:14:04.620
jurisdiction to sue the federal agents and federal agents have
291
00:14:04.629 --> 00:14:07.659
a lot of defenses and immunities, even more than state
292
00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:12.379
and local police. And so the other avenue was what
293
00:14:12.419 --> 00:14:14.980
we call Bivens action. It's based on a Supreme Court
294
00:14:15.019 --> 00:14:19.370
case titled Bivens. And the Supreme Court, that was 50
295
00:14:19.370 --> 00:14:23.049
years ago, probably. In the last 20 years, the Supreme
296
00:14:23.110 --> 00:14:26.389
Court has really reversed Bivens and says that would get
297
00:14:26.429 --> 00:14:29.450
you a jury trial with punitive damages. And if this
298
00:14:29.490 --> 00:14:31.149
case was ever put in front of a jury with
299
00:14:31.169 --> 00:14:34.769
punitive damages, there's no telling what that jury might do,
300
00:14:34.789 --> 00:14:37.500
because I've never told this story to anybody that didn't
301
00:14:37.539 --> 00:14:41.990
get pretty outraged. But he did come back. I think
302
00:14:42.070 --> 00:14:43.809
since I've been along with you all, I'd have to
303
00:14:43.850 --> 00:14:45.929
go back and look at the calendar. I think he
304
00:14:45.970 --> 00:14:50.120
did decide we can't pursue that, basically because, in his view,
305
00:14:50.139 --> 00:14:54.159
the Supreme Court says nobody can. Really?
306
00:14:54.259 --> 00:14:56.240
So no punitive damages?
307
00:14:56.259 --> 00:14:59.080
Because I was always taught in the academy, they said,
308
00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:03.120
your department can indemnify you and pay for anything except
309
00:15:03.220 --> 00:15:03.779
punitive damage.
310
00:15:03.820 --> 00:15:06.559
Well, and that's because you were a state and local cop.
311
00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:10.559
Oh, this is only for federal. That's right.
312
00:15:10.580 --> 00:15:14.620
Congress has passed a statute, 42 U.S.C. 1983, that is
313
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:20.720
a specific authorization to go sue state and local law
314
00:15:20.740 --> 00:15:24.440
enforcement for violating your constitutional rights. They've never passed a
315
00:15:24.460 --> 00:15:28.000
law that authorizes you to breach sovereign immunity on the
316
00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.429
federal side. So federal agents have a protection your local
317
00:15:31.470 --> 00:15:34.789
police department and your state troopers don't have. And so
318
00:15:34.870 --> 00:15:39.360
if it had been state police that did this idiotic operation,
319
00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:41.740
we could sue them in court in front of a
320
00:15:41.779 --> 00:15:43.870
jury and get punitive damage. And I think a lot
321
00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:47.250
of people would be shocked to know that the federal agents,
322
00:15:47.370 --> 00:15:49.070
you know, the worst they're going to get is they're
323
00:15:49.090 --> 00:15:50.929
going to be in a trial in front of a
324
00:15:50.990 --> 00:15:54.570
judge with no jury who can only award actual damages,
325
00:15:54.629 --> 00:15:57.409
which is wrongful death and loss, in this case, lost
326
00:15:57.750 --> 00:16:03.230
income and, you know, should be a significant number, but
327
00:16:04.070 --> 00:16:07.929
nothing close to what a jury would give if they well,
328
00:16:08.210 --> 00:16:10.700
let me just, I won't presume everybody, but if they
329
00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:15.299
thought about it like I would, how much outrage I
330
00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:19.860
think is appropriate for what these federal agents did, I
331
00:16:19.899 --> 00:16:23.549
think it would be an astronomical number. Well, and it's
332
00:16:23.590 --> 00:16:25.870
not as if- I'd be retired probably on that. I'm
333
00:16:25.889 --> 00:16:28.169
not going to retire. I'm not going to be retired
334
00:16:28.269 --> 00:16:31.470
on a federal tort claims act, especially since I've hired
335
00:16:31.490 --> 00:16:34.509
all these other attorneys to do the heavy lifting of it.
336
00:16:34.629 --> 00:16:37.059
This isn't a money deal for me. this is a
337
00:16:37.220 --> 00:16:39.019
trying to do right thing, but I would like us
338
00:16:39.059 --> 00:16:41.299
to win. I might get, you know, paid 50 or
339
00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:42.820
a hundred dollars an hour for all the time I
340
00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:44.580
have in it for the last two and a half years.
341
00:16:45.580 --> 00:16:48.899
Which, you know, I mean, your time is worth something. Right.
342
00:16:48.980 --> 00:16:52.639
So, but I will say being from North Idaho or
343
00:16:52.710 --> 00:16:56.169
living in North Idaho, cause I'm not technically from here, but, uh,
344
00:16:56.830 --> 00:17:00.009
there is a, there is a special, they have a
345
00:17:00.049 --> 00:17:01.730
special place in their heart for federal agents.
346
00:17:01.750 --> 00:17:02.350
Let's put it that way.
347
00:17:02.769 --> 00:17:03.149
Right.
348
00:17:03.750 --> 00:17:07.319
And, uh, what you're talking about is not unheard of.
349
00:17:07.420 --> 00:17:14.019
I think people might be shocked to learn that, uh, the,
350
00:17:15.259 --> 00:17:18.880
the boundary County. So boundary County is here in North
351
00:17:18.940 --> 00:17:22.369
Idaho boundary County is where a little, little place called
352
00:17:22.410 --> 00:17:25.569
Ruby Ridge is. And, uh, you know, when I go
353
00:17:25.609 --> 00:17:28.150
hunting with my buddies, we go hunting and we can,
354
00:17:28.329 --> 00:17:32.329
you know, you know, Sarah, uh, you know, Sarah Weaver's
355
00:17:33.009 --> 00:17:34.089
property boundaries come up.
356
00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:36.759
On the on X map, she still owns, you know,
357
00:17:36.980 --> 00:17:37.960
Emily still owns the land.
358
00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:46.390
Um, but, uh, the FBI sniper who shot and killed
359
00:17:46.450 --> 00:17:52.730
Vicki Weaver, um, was charged in boundary County. They indicted
360
00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:58.170
the FBI sniper for, uh, involuntary manslaughter. The federal government
361
00:17:58.250 --> 00:18:04.380
stepped in, uh, and, uh, basically charged said that the
362
00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:09.700
supremacy clause granted, uh, you know, the immunity, right.
363
00:18:09.740 --> 00:18:10.980
Or the defense attorneys claimed that.
364
00:18:11.809 --> 00:18:14.440
Uh, and then it was, I mean, he was basically
365
00:18:14.529 --> 00:18:19.069
legally shielded by the federal law enforcement and department of
366
00:18:19.109 --> 00:18:22.569
justice and all that kind of stuff from local prosecution,
367
00:18:23.849 --> 00:18:26.349
which is similar to what you're talking about. And it's,
368
00:18:26.490 --> 00:18:28.730
it's just a, it's just a criminal side. You're talking
369
00:18:28.769 --> 00:18:31.930
about a civil side where what, if that were a
370
00:18:31.990 --> 00:18:33.309
local cop or a local.
371
00:18:33.130 --> 00:18:35.829
Agent or, you know, forget about it, but now because
372
00:18:35.849 --> 00:18:37.230
it's federal, Oh no, no, no. Sorry.
373
00:18:37.250 --> 00:18:37.490
Sorry.
374
00:18:37.569 --> 00:18:40.910
Different rules, different rules, rules for the, not for me. Right.
375
00:18:40.930 --> 00:18:42.869
I mean, I can, I think that would disturb a
376
00:18:42.890 --> 00:18:45.039
lot of people if they really understood that.
377
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:45.319
Yeah.
378
00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:48.299
I can see kind of the protections though for it.
379
00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:51.759
You know, like you have like right now you have
380
00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:54.440
ice agents coming in and they're masking and stuff like that.
381
00:18:54.460 --> 00:18:56.980
And then you have these, these states like California who
382
00:18:57.019 --> 00:18:58.930
are like, you're not going to be able to wear
383
00:18:58.950 --> 00:18:59.230
a mask.
384
00:18:59.250 --> 00:19:00.769
And they're like, yeah, we don't care. We're feds.
385
00:19:00.809 --> 00:19:01.890
We're going to come in and wear a mask and
386
00:19:01.910 --> 00:19:03.109
we're going to do what we got to do because
387
00:19:03.150 --> 00:19:05.190
we might still be running undercover operations where we don't
388
00:19:05.230 --> 00:19:06.150
want our face being seen.
389
00:19:06.170 --> 00:19:07.539
So we're going to wear these.
390
00:19:07.460 --> 00:19:11.140
Masks and, and, you know, go and affect arrests and
391
00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:12.900
things like that. And then they come and try to
392
00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:15.660
try to bring charges on them. The feds are going
393
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:18.019
to knock it down. I see it in that, that case.
394
00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:20.599
But when it comes to cases like this, where you have,
395
00:19:22.059 --> 00:19:25.819
I guess it's a slippery slope and double-edged sword because
396
00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:29.549
you have cases like this, where, the atf agents covered
397
00:19:29.630 --> 00:19:32.170
the ring camera right well maybe if you didn't cover
398
00:19:32.210 --> 00:19:33.859
the ring camera they would have been able to look
399
00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:35.859
up on their their phone or a lot of people
400
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:38.420
have those eight like eight to ten inch displays that'll
401
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.220
show up your camera who's at it and if you
402
00:19:40.259 --> 00:19:42.220
see a bunch of people in radio you're like put
403
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:44.470
the gun away okay hey come downstairs hey how's it
404
00:19:44.490 --> 00:19:46.930
going like i'm here like answer the ring camera i'm
405
00:19:46.970 --> 00:19:49.490
coming out don't fucking shoot me but they covered it
406
00:19:49.509 --> 00:19:50.539
you don't know who the fuck's there.
407
00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:53.299
And it's early in the morning at six at six a.m.
408
00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:53.960
I'm groggy.
409
00:19:54.140 --> 00:19:56.599
I'm I'm I'm wiping sleep out of my eyes. It's
410
00:19:56.740 --> 00:19:57.839
I'm I'm blurry.
411
00:19:57.900 --> 00:19:58.660
Like, I can't see.
412
00:19:59.299 --> 00:20:01.920
And you have someone busting your door. That's crazy.
413
00:20:02.500 --> 00:20:03.640
There's just so many craziness.
414
00:20:04.220 --> 00:20:05.059
They didn't even ring.
415
00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:07.980
They didn't ring the doorbell. They had a cell phone.
416
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:09.720
They could have just called him on his cell phone.
417
00:20:09.740 --> 00:20:16.690
And I've seen the FBI do recently in a local search. They, they,
418
00:20:16.990 --> 00:20:19.789
they brought all those guys in their tactical gear, which
419
00:20:20.329 --> 00:20:21.970
I think is kind of silly in a lot of
420
00:20:22.049 --> 00:20:25.589
systems of these circumstances. But for, you know, we all,
421
00:20:25.849 --> 00:20:29.150
we're pro law enforcement. You know, I bet you guys are.
422
00:20:29.329 --> 00:20:31.670
And, and, uh, Good law enforcement.
423
00:20:31.690 --> 00:20:33.250
You want all those guys to go home at night.
424
00:20:33.269 --> 00:20:35.549
So if that's the best way to keep them safe,
425
00:20:36.009 --> 00:20:38.589
I'll give them that. But then you call them on
426
00:20:38.609 --> 00:20:42.190
the phone and you say, hey, we've got the perimeter secured.
427
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:44.980
Look out your window. This piece of paper I'm holding
428
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:47.559
up is a lawful search warrant. This guy next to
429
00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:51.140
me has got a badge. He's a Little Rock Police Department.
430
00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:52.000
Come on out.
431
00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:54.619
And 99.9% of the time, they're going to come out.
432
00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:58.059
And if they don't, you deal with it then. Correct.
433
00:20:58.079 --> 00:20:58.319
Correct.
434
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:01.140
And we talked about so many different tactical ways to
435
00:21:01.180 --> 00:21:03.839
have skinned that cat. But one of the things that
436
00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:07.839
I have wondered and Chuck and I talked about this
437
00:21:07.859 --> 00:21:11.920
because Chuck worked the road in an era where LPRs
438
00:21:11.940 --> 00:21:12.279
were a thing.
439
00:21:12.339 --> 00:21:12.779
I did not.
440
00:21:12.859 --> 00:21:13.019
Right.
441
00:21:13.059 --> 00:21:15.819
But I'm not a fan of flock cameras. I'm not
442
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:17.859
a fan of red light cameras. I'm not like I
443
00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:19.720
and we can talk about that in a little bit.
444
00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:22.920
I feel like there's some Sixth Amendment issues there. But,
445
00:21:24.059 --> 00:21:28.599
you know, when I look at. 844 California penal code
446
00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:32.839
844 or in your world, 18 USC 3109, right?
447
00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:39.089
Knock notice, right? When law enforcement has a duty to
448
00:21:39.150 --> 00:21:41.309
state who they are, their authority, why they're before entering
449
00:21:41.349 --> 00:21:42.049
all that other stuff.
450
00:21:43.170 --> 00:21:47.430
I feel like not letter of the law, maybe, but
451
00:21:47.529 --> 00:21:49.829
spirit of the law. When you cover that ring camera,
452
00:21:50.829 --> 00:21:56.369
you are, it's in some ways trying to skirt 18
453
00:21:56.369 --> 00:21:59.349
USC 3109 or it's obfuscating it at least a little
454
00:21:59.369 --> 00:22:02.970
bit because the whole point is you're supposed to be identifiable.
455
00:22:03.609 --> 00:22:05.970
And if somebody has a security camera to identify you
456
00:22:06.049 --> 00:22:09.650
before they open the door, right? Like that's, that's like
457
00:22:09.690 --> 00:22:11.789
covering up your patches or in your name tag when
458
00:22:11.809 --> 00:22:14.390
you're going into a riot a little bit, you know, you're.
459
00:22:14.569 --> 00:22:17.529
Already just, you're kind of revealing that you never really
460
00:22:17.609 --> 00:22:19.839
intended to for them to identify you and you really
461
00:22:19.910 --> 00:22:22.140
intended to just kick the door in. Right.
462
00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:25.289
And if, if, If they come back and they're like, oh, well,
463
00:22:25.329 --> 00:22:28.349
we wanted a safety precaution. We don't need someone to
464
00:22:28.369 --> 00:22:29.950
get the jump on us. Well, if you think the
465
00:22:29.990 --> 00:22:32.279
person's that much of a threat, you do a surrounding
466
00:22:32.299 --> 00:22:34.380
call out or you catch them off guard away from
467
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:36.440
their home and you wait for them to leave and
468
00:22:36.460 --> 00:22:40.319
then you do a takedown where it's advantageous for you.
469
00:22:40.339 --> 00:22:42.039
You know what I mean?
470
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:46.720
You set it on your turf. It doesn't make sense.
471
00:22:46.809 --> 00:22:50.309
And for the people that don't know, this individual, Brian Malinowski,
472
00:22:50.349 --> 00:22:53.170
was the director of the airport. Right. He lived in
473
00:22:53.230 --> 00:22:57.029
a very nice neighborhood, quiet, no criminal record. He got
474
00:22:57.089 --> 00:23:00.150
in his car, you know, on the same schedule every day,
475
00:23:00.230 --> 00:23:02.470
drove to the airport, parked in the same parking space,
476
00:23:02.750 --> 00:23:04.930
and went to work in a gun-free zone. So you
477
00:23:04.950 --> 00:23:07.130
don't have to be, you know, Dick Tracy to figure
478
00:23:07.150 --> 00:23:10.089
out that there's all kinds of places you could protect yourself,
479
00:23:10.170 --> 00:23:12.470
protect him, and get this job done.
480
00:23:12.490 --> 00:23:13.309
Take him down.
481
00:23:13.250 --> 00:23:13.910
To the parking lot.
482
00:23:14.589 --> 00:23:16.849
So I'll tell you, and I get officer safety, right?
483
00:23:16.910 --> 00:23:21.119
I understand that, right? I have executed a warrant without
484
00:23:21.410 --> 00:23:21.950
knock notice.
485
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.880
Um and and it's based on exigent circumstances you can't
486
00:23:25.900 --> 00:23:28.440
get a no-knock warrant you have to like you have
487
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:30.660
to base it on you know based on your training
488
00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:32.559
and experience and the decision is a is it at
489
00:23:32.579 --> 00:23:36.160
the door decision right we that's that's a well-established you
490
00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:39.059
know i think the supreme court is well a long
491
00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:42.019
time ago established that there is no exact there's no
492
00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:45.750
automatic exceptions for no-knock warrants right like they tried to
493
00:23:45.809 --> 00:23:48.789
do the felony drug rule where narcotics are so easily flushed.
494
00:23:48.829 --> 00:23:49.869
It should just be on an.
495
00:23:49.809 --> 00:23:52.910
Automatic exception to no, not to knock notice. And it's like, no, you,
496
00:23:52.950 --> 00:23:57.730
there is no automatic exception. I'll tell you, uh, we walk,
497
00:23:57.849 --> 00:23:59.410
we were, we were going up to a dope house
498
00:23:59.490 --> 00:24:01.950
and the only approach was either come past the school
499
00:24:02.150 --> 00:24:05.039
or come up across their front picture window bay window.
500
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:05.700
Right.
501
00:24:06.180 --> 00:24:08.660
And it was, there was no good way. We either
502
00:24:09.259 --> 00:24:10.680
endanger the, the, the, the.
503
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:14.329
School property or we, expose ourselves to their bay window
504
00:24:14.450 --> 00:24:16.049
and guess what we're the ones that are supposed to
505
00:24:16.069 --> 00:24:17.589
take the risk we said we have to walk past
506
00:24:17.609 --> 00:24:19.609
the bay window we're not gonna you know go the
507
00:24:19.630 --> 00:24:21.549
other way it was outside school hours blah blah blah
508
00:24:21.589 --> 00:24:23.950
right i'm not saying we executed a high-risk search warrant
509
00:24:24.289 --> 00:24:29.680
during school hours next to school right but we i
510
00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:32.440
shit you not we are in full raid gear about
511
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:34.420
to execute this dope warrant on this house we walk
512
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:38.140
past the bay window one of the teenagers that's living
513
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:40.279
there you know 18 year old kid or whatever is
514
00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:45.250
sitting in the living room playing Xbox or whatever, looks
515
00:24:45.309 --> 00:24:47.890
out the bay window and sees a full stack of
516
00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:52.380
us in all our kit going past the bay window
517
00:24:52.940 --> 00:24:55.099
and this front door is open and the screen door
518
00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:57.839
is shut and we just hear him go, Mom, cops
519
00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:04.200
are here. And we went, well, okay, I guess we
520
00:25:04.220 --> 00:25:04.900
don't have to knock.
521
00:25:05.980 --> 00:25:08.900
They know we're here. So we just opened the screen
522
00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:11.049
door search warrant and thrown everybody out.
523
00:25:11.589 --> 00:25:15.730
But I feel like anytime you, it's not like you're
524
00:25:15.750 --> 00:25:18.369
low crawling a meth lab where you're trying to get
525
00:25:18.410 --> 00:25:20.670
in and get out and not engage and you're taking
526
00:25:20.710 --> 00:25:22.569
surveillance photos or anything like that. That's not what I'm
527
00:25:22.589 --> 00:25:24.289
talking about. It's not talking about poll cams. It's not
528
00:25:24.309 --> 00:25:28.730
talking about surreptitious surveillance. We're talking about kinetic action, right?
529
00:25:29.089 --> 00:25:32.559
We're talking about, you know, something that is actually tactical
530
00:25:32.579 --> 00:25:35.519
in nature as opposed to, to, to some, something that's
531
00:25:35.539 --> 00:25:39.220
a little more surreptitious. I don't, I mean, anything you
532
00:25:39.259 --> 00:25:42.619
do that tries to, to, to obscure yourself, uh, from
533
00:25:43.089 --> 00:25:46.029
being identifiable there's plenty of case law that shows that
534
00:25:46.450 --> 00:25:52.230
uh cops have been shot and they weren't appropriately identifiable
535
00:25:52.269 --> 00:25:55.750
they weren't wearing their appropriate you know identifying markers and
536
00:25:55.789 --> 00:25:58.269
the the guy who shot the cops ends up getting
537
00:25:58.569 --> 00:26:01.650
off of a of a attempt to kill a cop
538
00:26:01.670 --> 00:26:03.890
charge because the defense is i didn't know he was
539
00:26:03.930 --> 00:26:05.690
a cop and the judge looks at the way they
540
00:26:05.730 --> 00:26:07.579
were dressed in the photograph and goes yeah i wouldn't
541
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:08.500
have known he was a cop.
542
00:26:08.579 --> 00:26:12.859
Yeah i mean we we We did an undercover operation
543
00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:15.900
where we had sat on a murder suspect's house, waited
544
00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:17.789
for the murder suspect to go off. I'm in a
545
00:26:17.829 --> 00:26:20.569
layoff vehicle. Suspect's walking away from the house. I wait
546
00:26:20.609 --> 00:26:22.990
for him to, I'm trying to catch up to him
547
00:26:23.109 --> 00:26:24.029
and I catch up to him.
548
00:26:24.109 --> 00:26:25.089
He's at the 7-Eleven.
549
00:26:25.490 --> 00:26:26.970
My goal is to take him down the 7-Eleven, end
550
00:26:27.009 --> 00:26:28.849
up taking him down inside of the 7-Eleven, which was
551
00:26:29.289 --> 00:26:30.769
perfect because he had no idea we were there.
552
00:26:31.349 --> 00:26:31.869
Take him down.
553
00:26:32.069 --> 00:26:35.410
The moment I say in custody, they execute a search
554
00:26:35.430 --> 00:26:38.500
warrant onto the home because it's safer that way. One,
555
00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:40.819
he's pulled away. Two, he doesn't have a chance to
556
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:43.640
call back. Hey, the cops are here. That way we
557
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.789
can obtain any type of evidence that they're trying to.
558
00:26:47.430 --> 00:26:51.569
Burn, shred, flush, whatever. Hide, dig the hole.
559
00:26:51.650 --> 00:26:52.009
I don't know.
560
00:26:52.049 --> 00:26:52.349
Whatever.
561
00:26:52.490 --> 00:26:52.769
I don't know.
562
00:26:53.150 --> 00:26:54.670
But we were able to do it that way.
563
00:26:54.710 --> 00:26:55.269
And it was safe.
564
00:26:55.390 --> 00:26:59.259
And that was a murder suspect. I mean, Mr. Malinowski,
565
00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:01.900
like he he yeah, he owns some guns. But I mean,
566
00:27:01.940 --> 00:27:03.579
come on. This is this is crazy.
567
00:27:05.069 --> 00:27:07.910
I think the key distinction and, you know, some people
568
00:27:07.950 --> 00:27:10.339
might say, you know, well, what about these ICE agents
569
00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:13.799
that killed this guy or shot that guy? You know,
570
00:27:14.420 --> 00:27:20.539
I tend to be biased to say I'm always given
571
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:24.099
a law enforcement officer. I've never carried a badge and
572
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:27.779
a gun. But when you're when these most of these
573
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:30.160
cases deal with split second decisions and I do know
574
00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:33.710
a lot of law enforcement officers. And they're, they're people,
575
00:27:33.910 --> 00:27:36.529
you know, you guys are, have been highly trained and
576
00:27:36.569 --> 00:27:38.759
done some hairy stuff, but you're still people, you get
577
00:27:38.819 --> 00:27:42.420
scared and, and you're, you know, you're adrenaline pumps and,
578
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:45.039
and there's all kinds of science about what, you know,
579
00:27:46.180 --> 00:27:48.859
how your field of vision narrows and all, you know,
580
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:51.180
in those, in those situations, I'm going to give you
581
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:52.759
a lot of benefits of that. And you may make
582
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:57.339
a mistake, but those mistakes almost always should be resolved
583
00:27:57.380 --> 00:28:03.160
civilly and not criminally because it's a split second decision that, that, that,
584
00:28:03.859 --> 00:28:05.579
you know, if we look at it in slow motion,
585
00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:08.329
maybe we decide you made a mistake, but those are,
586
00:28:08.420 --> 00:28:11.329
that that's different than what happened here where they had
587
00:28:11.410 --> 00:28:15.049
weeks to plan something. They could have chosen anything on
588
00:28:15.089 --> 00:28:19.470
a scale of one to a hundred in tactics. They
589
00:28:19.509 --> 00:28:21.289
had all kinds of time to talk about it. They
590
00:28:21.329 --> 00:28:25.259
had all kinds of information and they chose the very
591
00:28:25.339 --> 00:28:28.720
most aggressive and risky plan they could have possibly. And
592
00:28:28.759 --> 00:28:30.259
then they executed it incompetent.
593
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:35.069
And to your point, so you say you haven't carried
594
00:28:35.089 --> 00:28:36.829
a badge and a gun and you'll advocate for law enforcement.
595
00:28:37.029 --> 00:28:38.529
I did carry a badge and a gun, and I'm
596
00:28:38.569 --> 00:28:40.549
going to advocate against my own side a little bit
597
00:28:40.569 --> 00:28:43.650
and say you can't create your own exigency, right?
598
00:28:43.789 --> 00:28:44.150
Right.
599
00:28:44.329 --> 00:28:48.009
And so when you have time to plan and you
600
00:28:48.029 --> 00:28:50.490
have time to pick a good– it's not like when
601
00:28:50.509 --> 00:28:52.750
you walk up on a car and you don't know
602
00:28:52.789 --> 00:28:54.710
the guy is wanted for murder and a gun comes
603
00:28:54.750 --> 00:28:57.250
out the window and it's on. It is not like
604
00:28:57.299 --> 00:28:59.569
when you get dispatched to a call– And you don't
605
00:28:59.609 --> 00:29:02.230
know you're, you're, you're being told this person's armed and
606
00:29:02.250 --> 00:29:03.509
a guy comes out and you can't see what's in
607
00:29:03.549 --> 00:29:06.269
his hand. And he starts to, you know, that's not
608
00:29:06.289 --> 00:29:08.589
what we're talking about. That is not what we're talking about.
609
00:29:08.609 --> 00:29:11.210
We're talking about something that was a planned operation that
610
00:29:11.390 --> 00:29:13.009
should have been planned and handled better.
611
00:29:13.710 --> 00:29:16.150
Don't tell me officer safety when you had three weeks
612
00:29:16.190 --> 00:29:18.730
to plan for you, the most safe thing for you.
613
00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:22.819
And you chose this, uh, because you didn't, you know,
614
00:29:23.619 --> 00:29:25.420
a law enforcement officer might've been killed and we'd be
615
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:29.869
defending Brian Malinowski for that. Uh, and he'd be alive
616
00:29:29.910 --> 00:29:32.329
and we'd be having to, you know, show that he
617
00:29:32.380 --> 00:29:35.900
was justified in taking a shot at somebody in his house.
618
00:29:36.259 --> 00:29:39.210
And I wish we were doing that instead of this,
619
00:29:39.309 --> 00:29:41.180
but well, no, no, I don't because that would have
620
00:29:41.220 --> 00:29:44.019
had a law enforcement officer killed, you know, either way,
621
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:46.019
everybody's lives at risk.
622
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:48.369
Had the law enforcement done a better job, we wouldn't
623
00:29:48.410 --> 00:29:49.589
having a conversation about either.
624
00:29:50.289 --> 00:29:54.410
Yeah. And you know, a veteran police officer told me
625
00:29:54.430 --> 00:29:56.490
the other day, he said, you know, I have to say,
626
00:29:57.440 --> 00:29:59.569
I've worked in this a long time, known hundreds and
627
00:29:59.609 --> 00:30:02.609
hundreds of police officers and, you know, half the people
628
00:30:02.650 --> 00:30:04.450
that end up in this business don't need to be
629
00:30:04.470 --> 00:30:07.769
in that business. So, you know, that's what you're dealing with,
630
00:30:08.289 --> 00:30:09.849
but that's true in a lot of, that's not just
631
00:30:10.230 --> 00:30:11.390
limited to police officers.
632
00:30:11.450 --> 00:30:13.289
But most of them, most of them are doing a
633
00:30:13.309 --> 00:30:13.769
great job.
634
00:30:14.289 --> 00:30:16.769
You got to have supervision. You have to have grownups
635
00:30:16.809 --> 00:30:19.170
in the room when these decisions are being made. And
636
00:30:19.369 --> 00:30:23.269
unfortunately this is the case for, we still haven't found
637
00:30:23.309 --> 00:30:23.750
the grownup.
638
00:30:24.569 --> 00:30:28.599
Right. So now, uh, we also want to touch base
639
00:30:28.619 --> 00:30:30.400
a little bit on where we left off. So do
640
00:30:30.420 --> 00:30:35.859
you want to kind of, uh, uh, catch us up to, uh, Chuck,
641
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:37.700
you said you, we wanted to kind of.
642
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:42.210
Pick up there. Um, and is that kind of where
643
00:30:42.250 --> 00:30:44.609
we're at? Is that everything up to this point?
644
00:30:45.089 --> 00:30:47.069
Yeah. Well, we, so we're shut down on the jury.
645
00:30:47.109 --> 00:30:49.289
Now we have, uh, just today, the judge said a
646
00:30:49.329 --> 00:30:54.549
trial date, which is, uh, August 3rd, 2027. That's better
647
00:30:54.589 --> 00:30:55.930
for you. That's how federal court works.
648
00:30:56.230 --> 00:30:56.769
That's crazy.
649
00:30:57.210 --> 00:31:01.119
Uh, But now Brian's been dead for two and a
650
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:04.109
half years and only now can we start discovery. So
651
00:31:04.150 --> 00:31:06.589
we can now go ask some of these questions. We
652
00:31:06.630 --> 00:31:12.569
can go serve discovery on the agency and depose some
653
00:31:12.609 --> 00:31:15.349
people and ask them who actually made the decisions and
654
00:31:15.430 --> 00:31:22.190
why and all those things. Government can come try to
655
00:31:22.230 --> 00:31:24.750
settle this case anytime they want. They haven't really made
656
00:31:24.769 --> 00:31:27.359
a serious effort to do that. I don't know why.
657
00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:31.099
Like I said, the judge told them if the facts
658
00:31:31.160 --> 00:31:34.400
don't change, you're going to lose. He told them that.
659
00:31:34.420 --> 00:31:36.160
They're going to hold out as long as they can.
660
00:31:37.420 --> 00:31:40.420
Well, you know, I don't know what they think, but it's,
661
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:44.210
you know, like I said, I've got some pretty, my
662
00:31:45.630 --> 00:31:48.670
lead counsel on the trial team is a former FBI
663
00:31:48.769 --> 00:31:52.990
SWAT team member, assistant, former assistant United States attorney. So,
664
00:31:54.460 --> 00:31:57.299
And he's probably the best trial lawyer I know.
665
00:31:57.400 --> 00:31:58.180
He's got some time.
666
00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:00.180
We're up to it. If they want to, if they
667
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:03.269
want to dance, we're going to dance. I just don't
668
00:32:03.289 --> 00:32:05.589
think these agents are going to enjoy these depositions.
669
00:32:05.890 --> 00:32:07.430
Not at all. Well, and that may be it.
670
00:32:07.750 --> 00:32:10.930
Sometimes it takes the depositions for the, for the other
671
00:32:10.970 --> 00:32:12.430
side to go, Oh, we don't look good.
672
00:32:12.470 --> 00:32:14.029
These guys still sound good. This is not going to
673
00:32:14.069 --> 00:32:14.549
go well.
674
00:32:15.190 --> 00:32:16.210
Yeah. Before they settle.
675
00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:16.819
Yeah.
676
00:32:17.099 --> 00:32:20.519
So, well, so I thought one of the things, you know,
677
00:32:20.539 --> 00:32:24.190
in talking about, I asked you earlier, how much fun
678
00:32:24.470 --> 00:32:27.769
it is to prosecute stuff like that. What we talked
679
00:32:27.809 --> 00:32:29.789
about last time and we wanted to get into, what
680
00:32:29.890 --> 00:32:35.309
are some of your most memorable trials or trial? Like,
681
00:32:35.730 --> 00:32:37.750
you know, everybody thinks of, you know, these, these big
682
00:32:37.789 --> 00:32:39.789
trials have been on TV and stuff like that. And
683
00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:42.710
most of them, when you see trial, like law and
684
00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:46.880
order is bullshit. Like, you know, I see, I see
685
00:32:46.940 --> 00:32:48.500
so many of these cases and people are yelling and
686
00:32:48.539 --> 00:32:50.599
screaming at each other. And, and I look at my
687
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:54.940
wife and I go, the judge would never, ever allow
688
00:32:54.980 --> 00:32:55.500
that stuff.
689
00:32:55.539 --> 00:32:55.740
Right.
690
00:32:56.440 --> 00:32:59.160
And, uh, and, and even, even to some extent, what
691
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:02.839
people saw in the OJ case on TV, wasn't indicative
692
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:05.039
of what a normal trial looks like, because you ask
693
00:33:05.059 --> 00:33:06.980
a lot of experts and that judge lost control of
694
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:10.799
that courtroom a long time ago. Um, but, uh, I
695
00:33:10.819 --> 00:33:12.640
thought it'd be kind of interesting to talk about like,
696
00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:17.220
what are some of your most memorable ones where you,
697
00:33:17.299 --> 00:33:21.880
you know, where maybe life imitated art or, or it was, uh,
698
00:33:22.369 --> 00:33:24.170
you got some slam dunks or get some real good.
699
00:33:24.569 --> 00:33:27.390
Well, the one I probably come to mind first. And
700
00:33:27.410 --> 00:33:30.430
the one I probably tell the story about the most is, uh,
701
00:33:31.130 --> 00:33:35.420
a man called, uh, OC Smith was the medical examiner
702
00:33:35.460 --> 00:33:41.980
in Memphis. And OC Smith was found one night outside the, uh, uh,
703
00:33:42.019 --> 00:33:46.740
whatever they call the place that they do the autopsies, whatever, uh,
704
00:33:47.589 --> 00:33:52.150
the morgue. Yeah. The morgue or whatever. Uh, he came
705
00:33:52.250 --> 00:33:56.450
out late and they found him chained to some bars
706
00:33:56.579 --> 00:34:00.279
on the window with barbed wire around his head. Acid
707
00:34:02.779 --> 00:34:05.200
had been thrown in his face and a motion activated
708
00:34:05.259 --> 00:34:11.090
bomb around his neck. And he was alive. And so ATF,
709
00:34:11.750 --> 00:34:13.809
our friends at ATF came in and they had to
710
00:34:13.849 --> 00:34:18.150
defuse the bomb. And, and, and so this was, you know,
711
00:34:19.250 --> 00:34:23.250
A big deal. And Dr. Smith was very popular with
712
00:34:23.289 --> 00:34:27.369
law enforcement. He had been a key cog in many,
713
00:34:27.429 --> 00:34:31.380
many capital murder convictions in Memphis. And so all law
714
00:34:31.409 --> 00:34:35.360
enforcement rolled out to solve this case. Well, eventually they
715
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:38.420
figured out Dr. Smith did this to himself.
716
00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:39.880
No way.
717
00:34:39.980 --> 00:34:40.500
No.
718
00:34:40.739 --> 00:34:41.260
Yeah.
719
00:34:41.719 --> 00:34:42.139
No.
720
00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:46.480
And so the U.S. attorney there had been a prosecutor.
721
00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:48.360
He'd worked with Dr. Smith. So he had to recuse.
722
00:34:48.869 --> 00:34:51.170
They asked me to go over and prosecute Dr. Smith.
723
00:34:51.210 --> 00:34:55.699
And it culminated in a month-long trial. And it's amazing
724
00:34:55.719 --> 00:34:58.079
that I tell this story because we didn't win. It
725
00:34:58.099 --> 00:35:01.340
was a hung jury. But that was probably the right
726
00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:06.239
result because how do you convince 12 people that somebody
727
00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:11.420
would do this to themselves? The right answer was, I'm
728
00:35:11.460 --> 00:35:13.440
pretty sure he did this to himself, but I can't
729
00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:16.840
say it beyond a reasonable doubt. And that's a hung jury.
730
00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:21.119
What bothered me is three people really believed him. And
731
00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:24.960
so that always troubled me a little bit. And then
732
00:35:25.380 --> 00:35:28.360
I think about six were hung and then three were
733
00:35:28.380 --> 00:35:34.469
ready to convict. But he was a, and he's dead now.
734
00:35:34.989 --> 00:35:38.150
He died. But of all the people that I had
735
00:35:38.210 --> 00:35:41.110
death threats and the people we prosecuted, I was most
736
00:35:41.150 --> 00:35:45.400
scared of Dr. Smith because he was mentally unwell. And
737
00:35:45.420 --> 00:35:49.159
he had a 50 caliber sniper rifle. And so I've
738
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:51.280
got half expected to walk out my front door and
739
00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:54.329
catch one from a half mile away at any time.
740
00:35:54.389 --> 00:36:00.130
But because we did force his resignation and and but what?
741
00:36:00.809 --> 00:36:03.690
Long and the short of it is he had told
742
00:36:04.429 --> 00:36:06.199
the people in law enforcement, oh, Dr. Smith, he was
743
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:09.420
a Green Beret. You know, his wife was killed when
744
00:36:09.460 --> 00:36:12.099
he was stationed in Africa and he went on a
745
00:36:12.139 --> 00:36:14.260
mission and came back and the village that they were
746
00:36:14.300 --> 00:36:16.980
staying at, his wife was there and she'd been massacred.
747
00:36:17.780 --> 00:36:18.280
All made up.
748
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:20.400
Completely made up.
749
00:36:21.059 --> 00:36:21.340
No way.
750
00:36:21.380 --> 00:36:23.460
That's just the tip of the iceberg. This guy had
751
00:36:23.500 --> 00:36:28.260
told so many stories like this. And the troubling thing
752
00:36:28.409 --> 00:36:29.550
is he.
753
00:36:31.110 --> 00:36:34.650
All the law enforcement, man, when you've got that tough
754
00:36:35.010 --> 00:36:37.719
murder case and you just can't solve it, Dr. Smith
755
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:40.719
always comes in with a key piece of evidence we need. Well,
756
00:36:40.739 --> 00:36:43.280
he was making that stuff up too. He was making
757
00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:48.219
up the science to connect bullets and fibers and everything.
758
00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:50.940
And there's no telling how many people, and as you know,
759
00:36:52.539 --> 00:36:55.949
probably one weakness in our system is that on the
760
00:36:56.010 --> 00:36:58.869
state level, when somebody gets prosecuted for murder, rape, or whatever,
761
00:36:58.889 --> 00:37:01.739
they usually have a public defender And the state brings
762
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:06.599
in their expert to talk about blood splatters or, you know,
763
00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:12.360
gunshot residue, you know, the drill. And the defense doesn't
764
00:37:12.380 --> 00:37:15.360
go hire a competing expert 99% of the time to
765
00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:18.380
try and challenge. There's no money to do that. So
766
00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:22.300
you just accept whatever the expert says is true. Well,
767
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:26.650
this guy had testified in countless capital murder trials. And
768
00:37:26.710 --> 00:37:29.050
there's no telling how many of those trials he'd made
769
00:37:29.110 --> 00:37:31.789
up science and nobody ever really went back and tried
770
00:37:31.809 --> 00:37:34.369
to unravel all that. So that was kind of, that
771
00:37:34.409 --> 00:37:35.550
was kind of an interesting.
772
00:37:35.869 --> 00:37:38.409
Did he really have an, did he have an MD? Like,
773
00:37:38.449 --> 00:37:39.030
was that made up?
774
00:37:39.670 --> 00:37:42.090
No, I think he had an MD. I'm trying to
775
00:37:42.130 --> 00:37:43.780
think of something.
776
00:37:43.889 --> 00:37:50.400
And what's interesting is that immediately or sometime prior to
777
00:37:51.260 --> 00:37:58.059
the attack, it says that the, medical examiner's office had
778
00:37:58.159 --> 00:37:59.800
let his credentials lapse.
779
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:02.360
Oh, really? I don't remember. I didn't even remember that.
780
00:38:02.780 --> 00:38:04.889
Yeah, so it says at the time his office had
781
00:38:04.929 --> 00:38:10.070
recently let his medical certification lapse and that there was
782
00:38:10.130 --> 00:38:15.809
some people that speculated that his attempts to maybe stage
783
00:38:15.849 --> 00:38:22.230
his victimization were to kind of deflect from the professional scrutiny.
784
00:38:23.510 --> 00:38:26.329
That he was getting. But Here's something interesting is that
785
00:38:26.409 --> 00:38:30.030
there's also, I guess, so you were the prosecutor on
786
00:38:30.050 --> 00:38:30.329
that one?
787
00:38:30.809 --> 00:38:35.159
I prosecuted him for staging this. But what I recall
788
00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:39.579
was that he had testified in a case of a
789
00:38:39.699 --> 00:38:44.760
police officer getting killed in Memphis. And it came down,
790
00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:49.460
you know, it was at the Burger King or something,
791
00:38:49.500 --> 00:38:52.219
and there were bullets flying and a police officer caught one.
792
00:38:52.659 --> 00:38:56.150
And there were multiple defendants, you know, perpetrators. And it was,
793
00:38:56.710 --> 00:38:59.590
so somehow his testimony had tied a bullet to this
794
00:38:59.690 --> 00:39:02.570
particular guy and he'd gotten, you know, I think the
795
00:39:02.610 --> 00:39:07.170
death penalty. And so he on appeal or habeas or something,
796
00:39:07.449 --> 00:39:09.949
he'd hired, you know, they'd gotten some better lawyers in
797
00:39:09.989 --> 00:39:13.090
there and they started peeling back the layers on this
798
00:39:13.150 --> 00:39:17.130
testimony and they were starting to attack his testimony in
799
00:39:17.170 --> 00:39:21.110
that trial publicly and saying that it, you know, wasn't
800
00:39:21.170 --> 00:39:23.889
based in science and he, he perjured himself And I
801
00:39:23.949 --> 00:39:26.860
think it was the pressure from that case. And he
802
00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:29.130
was somehow trying to turn himself into a victim.
803
00:39:29.980 --> 00:39:31.800
Well, so this is from that.
804
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:35.599
There was also some people that were saying that he
805
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:40.559
had received. There's also there's also saying he received death
806
00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:47.119
threats after the work after Workman was executed. Or after
807
00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:49.000
he was put on death row, and there was some
808
00:39:49.039 --> 00:39:52.960
speculation also that a series of anonymous religiously motivated death
809
00:39:53.010 --> 00:39:56.849
threats mailed to local authorities were from him.
810
00:39:56.869 --> 00:39:57.989
Oh, I'm sure they were.
811
00:39:58.590 --> 00:40:01.269
Oh, yeah. It doesn't– oh, my gosh. It doesn't put
812
00:40:01.309 --> 00:40:01.750
it past me.
813
00:40:01.969 --> 00:40:04.690
Now, did the guy that he convicted for– got put
814
00:40:04.750 --> 00:40:07.389
on death row– and possibly made this shit up.
815
00:40:07.449 --> 00:40:11.360
Did that guy, I honestly don't know what relief he got.
816
00:40:11.420 --> 00:40:13.320
I should know, I should care. And I should have
817
00:40:13.340 --> 00:40:16.880
gone back and followed that, but I didn't. I went
818
00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:20.639
back to Arkansas and, and, and we, you know, to
819
00:40:20.699 --> 00:40:22.820
some extent we'd done our job because we put the
820
00:40:22.860 --> 00:40:24.849
facts out there where everybody in the world knew that
821
00:40:25.309 --> 00:40:28.750
whether they were willing to convict him of staging this,
822
00:40:29.230 --> 00:40:31.829
he didn't need to be the medical examiner anymore. And
823
00:40:31.949 --> 00:40:35.260
so that was over. And, and that was really, the
824
00:40:35.300 --> 00:40:37.699
public service there. I didn't have, you know, I didn't
825
00:40:37.719 --> 00:40:40.320
have anything personally against him, except that he was, he
826
00:40:40.340 --> 00:40:45.559
was way out there that the, the psychiatrist or the criminologist, uh,
827
00:40:45.739 --> 00:40:46.119
I'm trying.
828
00:40:46.139 --> 00:40:47.960
This is why I'm excited. Cause if you're about to
829
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:48.800
say Park Dietz.
830
00:40:49.179 --> 00:40:50.610
Park Dietz was our witness.
831
00:40:50.909 --> 00:40:51.550
Yes.
832
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:54.889
I came in and he was fascinating. He was great witness.
833
00:40:54.929 --> 00:40:58.329
And he, he, uh, he came in and talked about it.
834
00:40:58.389 --> 00:41:00.969
It was kind of that this, they would, the judge
835
00:41:01.030 --> 00:41:05.590
wouldn't let him testify because he had Dr. Smith. Let
836
00:41:05.610 --> 00:41:08.539
him testify about this. But he had an opinion about
837
00:41:08.659 --> 00:41:11.119
what made Dr. Smith tick. And it was basically a
838
00:41:12.099 --> 00:41:17.559
cousin in the in the psychology book of Munchausen syndrome,
839
00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:20.960
where mothers make their kids sick, that he he had
840
00:41:21.059 --> 00:41:24.340
some kind of different version of that. And it's, you know,
841
00:41:24.380 --> 00:41:28.699
police officers that that. Shoot at their own cars and
842
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:30.920
then call in that they're under fire. You know, that's
843
00:41:30.940 --> 00:41:33.980
happened more than a few times. Firemen that start fires.
844
00:41:34.389 --> 00:41:38.650
It's kind of in that category. But in this situation,
845
00:41:38.730 --> 00:41:44.090
he had this, he'd built this huge fantasy backstory and
846
00:41:44.170 --> 00:41:46.880
had this following among law enforcement where he was almost
847
00:41:46.909 --> 00:41:49.059
like a god. And I think he saw it kind
848
00:41:49.099 --> 00:41:53.199
of about the crater on him. And so he did
849
00:41:53.260 --> 00:41:56.900
something kind of nutty to, if I'd have promised him
850
00:41:56.940 --> 00:41:59.530
no jail time, he would have, I had a session
851
00:41:59.570 --> 00:42:01.750
with him where I tried to get him to plead
852
00:42:01.789 --> 00:42:05.440
guilty And I wouldn't tell him no jail time. And
853
00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:08.630
I should have probably because really the goal was to
854
00:42:08.670 --> 00:42:10.429
get him out of that job. Right.
855
00:42:10.730 --> 00:42:12.449
And then you could say.
856
00:42:12.530 --> 00:42:14.329
I'm pretty sure that if I had gone ahead and
857
00:42:14.389 --> 00:42:16.710
told him we'd recommend no jail time, he was about
858
00:42:16.750 --> 00:42:17.610
to tell me he did it.
859
00:42:18.469 --> 00:42:23.300
Yeah. So Chuck Park Dietz is. I guess he's the
860
00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:28.119
private practice version of an FBI profiler.
861
00:42:28.380 --> 00:42:28.619
Right.
862
00:42:28.860 --> 00:42:31.139
Like he's he's, you know, all the criminology.
863
00:42:31.590 --> 00:42:31.769
Yeah.
864
00:42:31.809 --> 00:42:33.909
All the mind hunters. Yeah.
865
00:42:33.989 --> 00:42:38.030
The John Douglas is the, the, the, you know, FBI
866
00:42:38.050 --> 00:42:40.750
behavioral science unit park deets is kind of a, a,
867
00:42:41.179 --> 00:42:42.519
a private practice version of that.
868
00:42:42.579 --> 00:42:42.920
He did.
869
00:42:44.019 --> 00:42:49.920
He testified that John Hinckley jr. Who shot Reagan to
870
00:42:49.980 --> 00:42:54.860
impress Jody Foster. He testified that he was saying he
871
00:42:54.900 --> 00:42:56.730
was a star witness in the Dahmer trial.
872
00:42:57.750 --> 00:42:58.869
Cause he said Dahmer.
873
00:42:58.590 --> 00:43:04.690
Was saying he, He evaluated Ted Kaczynski, the DC sniper,
874
00:43:04.789 --> 00:43:10.730
Jared Loeffner. He has been a threat assessment, behavioral science criminologist,
875
00:43:10.949 --> 00:43:13.170
inside the criminal minds kind of a dude. I think
876
00:43:13.210 --> 00:43:15.030
there's even a TV show where one of the characters
877
00:43:15.110 --> 00:43:16.409
is loosely based on Park Dietz.
878
00:43:16.659 --> 00:43:18.760
Yeah, there was. And I can't tell you which one
879
00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:20.360
it was, but there definitely was.
880
00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:23.139
So when you get into that Silence of the Lambs
881
00:43:23.179 --> 00:43:27.400
type shit, Park Dietz is... He was never an FBI profiler,
882
00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:28.699
if I remember correctly.
883
00:43:29.329 --> 00:43:33.369
But he is a private practice version of that, I guess.
884
00:43:33.389 --> 00:43:35.110
Oh, that's really cool. He's got some weight.
885
00:43:35.730 --> 00:43:36.409
You'll see him.
886
00:43:36.469 --> 00:43:39.329
If you watch crime dramas, he'll pop up here and
887
00:43:39.369 --> 00:43:43.429
there in these cases. But I would say, based on
888
00:43:43.449 --> 00:43:47.579
the time we spent with him, he was the real deal.
889
00:43:47.820 --> 00:43:49.500
And he was a fascinating guy to just talk to.
890
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:53.519
He taught me a lot, really. It's common sense for
891
00:43:53.539 --> 00:43:56.219
anybody that's been in law enforcement, probably. But in that
892
00:43:56.280 --> 00:44:00.489
case in particular, it comes up all the time. crime
893
00:44:00.550 --> 00:44:02.010
isn't usually that complicated.
894
00:44:02.889 --> 00:44:04.409
Right.
895
00:44:04.510 --> 00:44:06.449
He kind of walked me through that. He said, you know,
896
00:44:06.909 --> 00:44:09.739
we've studied thousands, tens of thousands of crimes. And if
897
00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:13.260
you have a really complicated version of what probably happened
898
00:44:13.300 --> 00:44:15.800
in a really simple version, it's usually the simple version.
899
00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:17.800
Yeah.
900
00:44:17.820 --> 00:44:20.420
They plan things where the ice melts and the spoon
901
00:44:20.460 --> 00:44:22.840
drops and the match lights and all that stuff. I mean,
902
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:26.139
that doesn't really happen a lot in real life. So
903
00:44:26.179 --> 00:44:27.760
it's usually the most simple version.
904
00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:34.969
So the best one I heard from that was, you know, obviously, Chuck,
905
00:44:35.010 --> 00:44:36.929
I don't know if you're familiar with Occam's Razor. It's the,
906
00:44:36.989 --> 00:44:39.269
you know, absent any other evidence, the simplest answer is
907
00:44:39.349 --> 00:44:43.449
usually the correct one, right? And, you know, I love
908
00:44:43.489 --> 00:44:45.750
that because it has proven true so many times, time
909
00:44:45.769 --> 00:44:46.409
and time and time.
910
00:44:46.329 --> 00:44:46.849
And time again.
911
00:44:47.269 --> 00:44:49.909
But I feel like, I think it was a book
912
00:44:49.969 --> 00:44:55.280
I read and the cop was explaining that principle, right?
913
00:44:55.579 --> 00:44:59.119
And what he said was, if you think the Butler
914
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:02.119
did it 99 times out of a hundred, you're going
915
00:45:02.139 --> 00:45:04.429
to find out the fucking Butler did it. There is
916
00:45:04.449 --> 00:45:08.110
no Scooby-Doo ending. They never pull back the fucking mask
917
00:45:08.190 --> 00:45:10.590
to reveal Mr. Goldman, old man Johnson.
918
00:45:10.610 --> 00:45:11.269
Right.
919
00:45:11.389 --> 00:45:15.110
And, and think about like in all of my cases,
920
00:45:15.969 --> 00:45:19.159
there's rarely ever a twist ending.
921
00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:19.719
Right.
922
00:45:20.019 --> 00:45:24.519
Right. So real quick, my wife and I just watched,
923
00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:25.739
watch it on Netflix.
924
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:28.139
If you want a good 90 minute documentary that just
925
00:45:29.219 --> 00:45:32.420
you walk, watch how messed up people are. Uh, we
926
00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:34.539
watched this documentary called toxic love affair.
927
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:35.099
I think it was called.
928
00:45:36.179 --> 00:45:39.739
And, um, the, the, there's a nine one, one call
929
00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:43.349
that starts the documentary, a female calling nine one, one
930
00:45:43.409 --> 00:45:49.469
reporting an attack. And I shit you not Matt, our,
931
00:45:49.630 --> 00:45:51.309
our buddy, Matt, who is the one who told me
932
00:45:51.329 --> 00:45:55.099
to watch it. We're watching it 40 seconds in. I
933
00:45:55.139 --> 00:45:57.340
paused it, and I looked. That's how I know it
934
00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:00.340
was 40 seconds in. 40 seconds into the documentary, the
935
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:02.380
documentary opens with this 911 call, and.
936
00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:05.360
My wife goes, oh, whoever that is, she is full
937
00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:09.599
of shit. She's lying. And I was like, hmm, interesting.
938
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:13.739
Now, interestingly enough, as I'm listening to the same 911
939
00:46:13.739 --> 00:46:15.429
call that my wife's listening to in the first 40
940
00:46:15.429 --> 00:46:19.949
seconds of the documentary, I'm hearing some stuff that I'm like, hmm.
941
00:46:21.469 --> 00:46:23.409
if I'm the dispatcher or if I'm an experienced dispatcher,
942
00:46:23.429 --> 00:46:25.010
if I'm an experienced cop, I'm going to be.
943
00:46:24.969 --> 00:46:26.469
Like, I need to do a little digging.
944
00:46:26.510 --> 00:46:26.690
Right.
945
00:46:27.750 --> 00:46:30.849
But my wife heard it instantly. It was like, she's
946
00:46:30.869 --> 00:46:33.050
full of shit. You watch a documentary.
947
00:46:33.789 --> 00:46:35.710
Not only is she full of shit, it's way worse
948
00:46:35.730 --> 00:46:38.530
than you thought, but it was such a rare case
949
00:46:38.869 --> 00:46:41.090
of the Scooby-Doo ending, right. Of the, of the, of
950
00:46:41.110 --> 00:46:44.570
the plot being really convoluted most of the time.
951
00:46:45.590 --> 00:46:49.159
Right. If who's the most common person in, if you
952
00:46:49.179 --> 00:46:51.300
find a dead body, find a dead wife, right. the
953
00:46:51.320 --> 00:46:53.219
most common suspect is the husband.
954
00:46:53.860 --> 00:46:54.159
Right.
955
00:46:55.639 --> 00:46:56.909
It's, it's, it just is.
956
00:46:56.989 --> 00:46:59.590
I probably stole this from somebody else, but I'm going
957
00:46:59.610 --> 00:47:02.050
to take credit for the quote and tell you who
958
00:47:02.090 --> 00:47:04.570
I stole it from. But I, I use this all
959
00:47:04.610 --> 00:47:07.590
the time. You know, you'll hear a news report, you know,
960
00:47:07.809 --> 00:47:11.510
breaking news, somebody, and somebody said that, and I'll just go,
961
00:47:11.710 --> 00:47:15.670
I don't know what happened, but that didn't happen. Right. Yeah.
962
00:47:16.090 --> 00:47:16.230
Yeah.
963
00:47:16.909 --> 00:47:19.030
You don't really know what happened, but when you hear
964
00:47:19.110 --> 00:47:21.719
somebody's version of it that's complicated or whatever.
965
00:47:22.940 --> 00:47:23.659
That didn't happen.
966
00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:25.860
I'm just trying to think of some examples of it
967
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:28.300
because it seems like there's dozens of them.
968
00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:32.119
Dude, there was one where a father or this lady,
969
00:47:32.500 --> 00:47:34.420
she's like, oh, I lost my kid. And the story
970
00:47:34.460 --> 00:47:37.219
was so wild. And you're like, you lost your kid
971
00:47:37.260 --> 00:47:40.730
and the kid's now just gone. And it's just super
972
00:47:41.090 --> 00:47:43.230
odd the way it happened. It was like at a
973
00:47:43.489 --> 00:47:46.360
grocery store and then just poof, kid gone. And then
974
00:47:46.380 --> 00:47:47.539
they go back and look at all the footage.
975
00:47:48.460 --> 00:47:49.039
They're not there.
976
00:47:49.639 --> 00:47:52.159
Comes out to find out that the husband killed the
977
00:47:52.179 --> 00:47:53.519
kid and then buried the kid.
978
00:47:54.070 --> 00:47:54.929
Right. Yeah.
979
00:47:55.429 --> 00:47:55.949
It was crazy.
980
00:47:56.449 --> 00:47:59.949
It's Casey Anthony, right? She got off.
981
00:48:01.150 --> 00:48:01.750
Well, you know.
982
00:48:02.690 --> 00:48:06.889
But it's just... What are you going to do? It
983
00:48:06.949 --> 00:48:09.380
is what it is, right? That probably happened. That's probably
984
00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:13.139
what happened. I can't prove it, but I pretty much
985
00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:13.480
know it.
986
00:48:13.559 --> 00:48:17.849
With me, it's more... I don't know what happened, but
987
00:48:17.929 --> 00:48:20.010
what they just said didn't happen.
988
00:48:20.110 --> 00:48:21.349
And that's part of it, right?
989
00:48:21.469 --> 00:48:24.739
At some point you go, okay, I'm not sure what
990
00:48:24.760 --> 00:48:26.300
the truth is, but I know that ain't it.
991
00:48:26.880 --> 00:48:30.090
My batting average on that part is really high.
992
00:48:30.179 --> 00:48:33.780
Right, right, yeah. I used to tell them, hey, buddy,
993
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:39.519
it's your lie. You can tell it any way you want. Yeah.
994
00:48:39.820 --> 00:48:42.960
By the way, real quick, Park Dietz is a technical
995
00:48:42.980 --> 00:48:45.739
advisor on your favorite show or shows. Law & Order,
996
00:48:45.989 --> 00:48:48.559
Law & Order Criminal Intent, and Law & Order Los Angeles.
997
00:48:49.500 --> 00:48:53.820
Yeah, I want to say he's been involved in those
998
00:48:53.900 --> 00:48:55.340
shows from the very beginning.
999
00:48:55.699 --> 00:48:55.920
Oh, yeah.
1000
00:48:56.119 --> 00:48:56.860
There's a lot on here.
1001
00:48:56.900 --> 00:48:59.019
He's probably made more money doing that than anything else.
1002
00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:03.119
Right, because you hire him because then you get all
1003
00:49:03.159 --> 00:49:07.949
his stories, right? You get his panache, his cachet, his reputation, yeah.
1004
00:49:08.139 --> 00:49:10.170
And the only other thing I remember about Park Dietz
1005
00:49:10.250 --> 00:49:13.960
is his hobby is he collects watches. He's a watch guy.
1006
00:49:13.960 --> 00:49:17.630
So he apparently has this vast watch guy collection of
1007
00:49:17.889 --> 00:49:19.190
really nice watches.
1008
00:49:19.530 --> 00:49:22.179
Well so i wanted to get uh since we're going
1009
00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:24.519
we've talked about the atf we got a few minutes
1010
00:49:24.539 --> 00:49:26.420
left so i thought i would ask you about um
1011
00:49:26.519 --> 00:49:29.960
a couple of things what i want to talk about
1012
00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:33.920
um some of the because we interviewed a former um
1013
00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:39.739
former assistant or deputy director of the ATF. This was
1014
00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:43.420
a couple, a little while back and a very nice,
1015
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:46.610
very cool guy. We, we got along great with him. Um,
1016
00:49:47.260 --> 00:49:54.710
and he said, I left the ATF over some basically
1017
00:49:55.449 --> 00:50:00.989
administrative enforcement decisions that were, I think politically motivated. And
1018
00:50:01.630 --> 00:50:05.929
I saw, you know, the, the, the, the, the, kind
1019
00:50:05.969 --> 00:50:07.619
of writing on the wall as far as, well, this
1020
00:50:07.659 --> 00:50:09.030
is how we want you to enforce this. This is
1021
00:50:09.050 --> 00:50:10.449
how we want you to interpret the law.
1022
00:50:10.489 --> 00:50:13.190
This is it. And he basically said, I was not
1023
00:50:13.230 --> 00:50:16.110
into agenda-based enforcement. Like, nope, I'm out.
1024
00:50:16.349 --> 00:50:18.789
I'm not, that's not what I'm doing. Like, like you're saying,
1025
00:50:18.809 --> 00:50:20.269
I don't know what the truth is, but that ain't it.
1026
00:50:20.309 --> 00:50:22.030
He's saying, I don't know what the right call is,
1027
00:50:22.070 --> 00:50:22.869
but I'm not doing that.
1028
00:50:23.090 --> 00:50:26.289
Right. And, and, and, you know, some of the things,
1029
00:50:26.510 --> 00:50:29.489
you know, the ATF, you know, let's see, we've got
1030
00:50:29.550 --> 00:50:33.469
pistol braces, right? Arm braces, right? Is it a pistol?
1031
00:50:33.510 --> 00:50:33.969
Is it a rifle?
1032
00:50:34.409 --> 00:50:37.639
Is it like, is it, uh, can you, well, bump stocks,
1033
00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:40.880
bump stocks are banned, but, but yet you can bump
1034
00:50:40.940 --> 00:50:43.739
fire a rifle without a stock, right? Does that mean
1035
00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:45.960
you're going to bet you're going to make it illegal
1036
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:47.880
to operate the rifle in that manner?
1037
00:50:47.900 --> 00:50:48.119
Right.
1038
00:50:48.519 --> 00:50:50.320
But there's an interesting one, which is, uh, and I
1039
00:50:50.340 --> 00:50:53.050
mentioned it earlier, it's, it used to be Garland V Vanderstock.
1040
00:50:53.110 --> 00:50:56.250
I think it's Bondi V Vanderstock now. Um, well, no,
1041
00:50:56.289 --> 00:51:00.630
not now because she's not the AG. Um, but it,
1042
00:51:00.849 --> 00:51:04.719
it's basically, uh, they're calling it, I hate the term
1043
00:51:04.739 --> 00:51:07.559
ghost gun. So I'll just say 80% lower, right?
1044
00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:13.420
An 80% kit. And it was a ruling or a rule.
1045
00:51:13.500 --> 00:51:16.460
The ATF just, ATF is apparently a legislative body now.
1046
00:51:16.500 --> 00:51:17.460
They just issue rules.
1047
00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:22.320
And they said, if this kit can be readily converted
1048
00:51:22.619 --> 00:51:30.780
into a working firearm, it's a firearm. And they essentially said,
1049
00:51:31.380 --> 00:51:34.679
that's it. you can't do it. And the manufacturers sued them.
1050
00:51:35.420 --> 00:51:35.619
Right.
1051
00:51:36.340 --> 00:51:40.940
And so now you have these issues of, is the
1052
00:51:41.000 --> 00:51:45.239
potential of something to be something, make it the thing.
1053
00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:49.739
Right. I think a different way to say it is,
1054
00:51:50.179 --> 00:51:52.610
and you know, the Malinowski case is an example. I mean,
1055
00:51:52.619 --> 00:51:57.550
he was accused of being in the business, being engaged
1056
00:51:57.570 --> 00:51:59.829
in the business of selling firearms and nobody really knows
1057
00:51:59.869 --> 00:52:04.280
what that means. And, In my view, at this stage,
1058
00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:10.840
late stage in life, I've gotten pretty wise, maybe. I
1059
00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:13.829
just think we ought to reserve criminal prosecution for things
1060
00:52:13.869 --> 00:52:16.809
that we all can agree are a crime. The act itself.
1061
00:52:17.769 --> 00:52:20.130
You know, I go hit Chuck over the head with
1062
00:52:20.170 --> 00:52:22.579
a lead pipe. pretty sure that you know you get
1063
00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:25.340
a unanimous verdict that that's a crime if you did
1064
00:52:25.389 --> 00:52:27.429
that it's just a question of whether you did it
1065
00:52:27.510 --> 00:52:31.190
because whoever did it committed a crime rape murder you
1066
00:52:31.210 --> 00:52:33.090
know sticking a gun in a teller's face at a
1067
00:52:33.130 --> 00:52:37.010
bank but you get into what the federal prosecution and
1068
00:52:37.050 --> 00:52:39.289
you know i love being a federal prosecutor but you
1069
00:52:39.309 --> 00:52:43.360
know some of what we did was kind of subjective. And,
1070
00:52:43.599 --> 00:52:45.239
and a lot of, and when you get into these
1071
00:52:45.340 --> 00:52:49.119
agencies like EPA and ATF, and they're making, they're changing
1072
00:52:49.139 --> 00:52:52.400
all these regulations, just however they want to interpret the law.
1073
00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:55.280
And people don't, you know, you couldn't even get a
1074
00:52:55.320 --> 00:52:57.800
group of 50 people to agree that what's, what they
1075
00:52:57.860 --> 00:53:01.150
say is a violation should be a violation. That, that
1076
00:53:01.170 --> 00:53:03.989
shouldn't be criminal. That just, you shouldn't send people out
1077
00:53:04.010 --> 00:53:07.230
with guns to enforce that. You should, you know, maybe
1078
00:53:07.250 --> 00:53:10.409
go let them litigate it. And I don't like the
1079
00:53:10.449 --> 00:53:14.019
idea that an agency can go break somebody litigating them civilly.
1080
00:53:14.059 --> 00:53:15.179
But it's a hell of a lot better than kicking
1081
00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:18.159
their door in, serving a search warrant, or threatening to
1082
00:53:18.179 --> 00:53:20.739
take their liberty away over something that we can't even
1083
00:53:20.780 --> 00:53:25.119
all agree. That's why, I mean, I'm pro-life. But abortion
1084
00:53:25.179 --> 00:53:28.369
isn't a perfect thing to criminalize because I can't even
1085
00:53:28.409 --> 00:53:31.670
get a majority of the people on my block to
1086
00:53:31.710 --> 00:53:34.789
agree that abortion should be a crime. So should that
1087
00:53:34.829 --> 00:53:38.349
be something we criminalize? You know, maybe not. Maybe not.
1088
00:53:39.030 --> 00:53:43.030
And to your point, like, I think that that case,
1089
00:53:43.309 --> 00:53:47.800
when you look at it, has broader applications because you're
1090
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:50.159
talking about applying old laws to new technology.
1091
00:53:50.219 --> 00:53:50.440
Right.
1092
00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:54.539
And so how does that affect drones? How does that
1093
00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:57.460
affect auto driving cars? Right.
1094
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:01.210
How does that affect social media? All of these new technologies.
1095
00:54:01.719 --> 00:54:04.760
I'll give you a perfect example. The gun control argument
1096
00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:08.340
has often been made that the Second Amendment only applies
1097
00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:14.960
to muskets because that's what they were carrying when that
1098
00:54:15.199 --> 00:54:18.480
amendment was written. Okay, well, then let's extrapolate that and
1099
00:54:18.519 --> 00:54:21.739
say the First Amendment only applies to pamphlets and town criers.
1100
00:54:22.219 --> 00:54:24.679
If you don't have a printing press in your home
1101
00:54:25.059 --> 00:54:27.599
and you manually typeset it and print it with a
1102
00:54:27.619 --> 00:54:31.000
printing press and hand it out on the town hall steps...
1103
00:54:31.210 --> 00:54:33.550
or stand in the town hall with a bell screaming
1104
00:54:33.590 --> 00:54:36.329
it out loud, that's the only thing the First Amendment
1105
00:54:37.389 --> 00:54:41.469
covers because the internet and social media and TV and
1106
00:54:41.530 --> 00:54:44.329
radio weren't invented then, so the First Amendment doesn't cover those.
1107
00:54:44.829 --> 00:54:48.809
It is the same slippery slope when you look at, oh,
1108
00:54:48.849 --> 00:54:49.610
it's just about guns.
1109
00:54:49.670 --> 00:54:54.130
No, it's not. It's about legal kind of framework.
1110
00:54:54.769 --> 00:55:01.150
Can an agency, can an administrative agency make laws that
1111
00:55:01.389 --> 00:55:09.590
becomes de facto law without Congress or the legislative branch
1112
00:55:09.869 --> 00:55:10.510
legislating it.
1113
00:55:11.190 --> 00:55:13.989
Second, I got a dog issue.
1114
00:55:14.190 --> 00:55:16.090
We love dogs.
1115
00:55:17.369 --> 00:55:19.949
Here. We sent our other dog off to training, so
1116
00:55:19.969 --> 00:55:20.829
he's really bored.
1117
00:55:21.489 --> 00:55:23.349
Well, I just thought since we were talking about ATF,
1118
00:55:23.369 --> 00:55:25.380
we'd do that one. And then last, before we close out,
1119
00:55:25.389 --> 00:55:26.730
because I know we got our dedication to get to,
1120
00:55:27.309 --> 00:55:29.989
I came up with our Bud Cummins lightning round.
1121
00:55:30.650 --> 00:55:33.110
Chuck, you want to play? Sure. Okay.
1122
00:55:33.610 --> 00:55:37.510
So you guys get about 30 seconds. I'm going to
1123
00:55:37.780 --> 00:55:40.110
ask you 10 questions. And you guys get to talk
1124
00:55:40.159 --> 00:55:42.579
about whether it's like a basically a yes or no
1125
00:55:44.139 --> 00:55:46.860
answer kind of a thing. You can elaborate, but you
1126
00:55:46.900 --> 00:55:51.559
guys can tell me. So number one, I got a preview,
1127
00:55:51.579 --> 00:55:53.420
so I know what Bud's going to say. Should police
1128
00:55:53.460 --> 00:55:57.099
be allowed to purchase commercially available cell phone location data
1129
00:55:57.179 --> 00:55:57.659
without a warrant?
1130
00:55:58.719 --> 00:56:00.639
Well, I might change my answer on that. I think
1131
00:56:00.679 --> 00:56:04.820
I said no, but if it's commercially available, I would
1132
00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:09.409
say I would maybe be OK with that, although I
1133
00:56:09.449 --> 00:56:13.070
have some larger concerns about the use of technology. So 23andMe,
1134
00:56:13.090 --> 00:56:14.260
some of those like some of those like.
1135
00:56:17.079 --> 00:56:19.539
Family familial dna that gets into some of those areas
1136
00:56:19.579 --> 00:56:21.619
but this is just saleful data chuck yeah.
1137
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:24.659
Well i'm under i thought commercially available meant anybody could
1138
00:56:24.699 --> 00:56:25.920
come by the data.
1139
00:56:25.619 --> 00:56:28.179
Yes yes somebody could anybody can come by.
1140
00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:30.960
Can anybody come by the 23andme data set i don't
1141
00:56:30.980 --> 00:56:33.679
know i'm just saying that i'm going to get rid
1142
00:56:33.699 --> 00:56:36.800
of my 23andme profile right.
1143
00:56:35.800 --> 00:56:37.599
Well it's already in the system i don't do it
1144
00:56:37.619 --> 00:56:39.679
i don't do 23andme you ain't get.
1145
00:56:39.860 --> 00:56:41.699
My um i would say i would say if it's
1146
00:56:41.719 --> 00:56:44.719
commercially available and anyone can own it then if it's
1147
00:56:44.739 --> 00:56:47.300
going to help my investigation further, my investigation, because it's
1148
00:56:47.619 --> 00:56:50.800
readily available to anyone and it's public knowledge, then yes.
1149
00:56:51.559 --> 00:56:51.719
Right.
1150
00:56:51.760 --> 00:56:53.559
So if you, I don't think it's right, but yes.
1151
00:56:53.780 --> 00:56:54.820
Well, this is the same thing as.
1152
00:56:54.760 --> 00:56:57.699
Like, I, if you subscribe, if a cop subscribes to
1153
00:56:57.820 --> 00:57:02.280
reverse directory, look up and anybody can subscribe to reverse directory,
1154
00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:06.039
look up and they use that to, to do criminal investigation. I,
1155
00:57:06.610 --> 00:57:07.489
what do you, okay.
1156
00:57:07.989 --> 00:57:08.159
Right.
1157
00:57:09.300 --> 00:57:10.670
Am I disposal? Why am I not going to use
1158
00:57:10.710 --> 00:57:14.360
it to should. Should facial recognition ever be used in
1159
00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:20.300
public schools? Ooh.
1160
00:57:20.480 --> 00:57:22.659
I don't like facial recognition, period.
1161
00:57:22.699 --> 00:57:23.739
So I'm going to say no.
1162
00:57:24.199 --> 00:57:27.340
What about facial exclusion? I'll throw it in there.
1163
00:57:27.579 --> 00:57:29.760
I would need to know more about facial exclusion.
1164
00:57:30.219 --> 00:57:34.530
So facial recognition takes your face and runs it through
1165
00:57:34.550 --> 00:57:38.010
a database to see what comes up. Facial exclusion is
1166
00:57:38.050 --> 00:57:41.090
where you give it a face and it ignores every
1167
00:57:41.130 --> 00:57:41.849
face but that one.
1168
00:57:43.130 --> 00:57:44.989
I mean, that's a great tool, especially when you're coming
1169
00:57:45.010 --> 00:57:48.840
to predators and things like that. However, it's not going
1170
00:57:48.860 --> 00:57:52.059
to help prevent in like a school shooting scenario unless
1171
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:53.320
you know that a.
1172
00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:56.579
Kid is out suspended on a threat assessment.
1173
00:57:56.880 --> 00:57:57.079
Right.
1174
00:57:57.280 --> 00:57:57.820
That's different.
1175
00:57:58.280 --> 00:57:59.840
And now that's a tool.
1176
00:58:01.280 --> 00:58:05.369
Well, and if it memorizes every everybody's face that's supposed
1177
00:58:05.409 --> 00:58:07.329
to be in the school and then it can identify
1178
00:58:07.369 --> 00:58:11.449
a face that it doesn't know and it works. you know,
1179
00:58:11.489 --> 00:58:14.389
the resource officer or the front desk that there's a
1180
00:58:14.449 --> 00:58:19.349
stranger in the building, you know, that, that, and that's
1181
00:58:19.409 --> 00:58:22.670
akin to, you know, the technology that I was talking
1182
00:58:22.690 --> 00:58:25.820
to y'all about earlier about that they use in jails.
1183
00:58:25.860 --> 00:58:28.260
I mean, to, to know where everybody is, I mean,
1184
00:58:28.280 --> 00:58:30.179
they have technology that can not only know where you
1185
00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:33.019
are all the time, it can say, if you're going somewhere,
1186
00:58:33.059 --> 00:58:35.260
you're not authorized to be, and that might be useful
1187
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:39.110
in the school. It can identify furtive behavior. It can
1188
00:58:39.170 --> 00:58:43.429
identify aggressive behavior. Two people are squaring off. And so
1189
00:58:44.050 --> 00:58:47.969
that can be useful in a school. But again, we're
1190
00:58:47.989 --> 00:58:51.849
going to have the same end on the same sentence,
1191
00:58:51.969 --> 00:58:53.670
but how far do we want to go with this stuff?
1192
00:58:53.769 --> 00:58:54.630
Exactly.
1193
00:58:54.690 --> 00:58:57.369
Number three, if police use a drone over private property
1194
00:58:57.409 --> 00:59:00.190
without a warrant, where should the constitutional line be?
1195
00:59:00.210 --> 00:59:06.869
I mean, I look at it as a helicopter, like
1196
00:59:06.869 --> 00:59:09.969
if you're using it as for searching an area for
1197
00:59:10.010 --> 00:59:13.800
a suspect, like a helicopter would be an airship look
1198
00:59:13.860 --> 00:59:15.059
searching for the same suspect.
1199
00:59:15.380 --> 00:59:17.300
It's just a lot cheaper to deploy a drone in
1200
00:59:17.340 --> 00:59:17.639
the air.
1201
00:59:18.219 --> 00:59:21.139
I would say we're already using that type of technology
1202
00:59:22.579 --> 00:59:25.039
as long as it's manually operated and you have an
1203
00:59:25.179 --> 00:59:29.400
operator operating the drone and another operator operating the camera.
1204
00:59:29.969 --> 00:59:33.400
looking for a suspect in a perimeter, like a perimeter search,
1205
00:59:33.460 --> 00:59:35.980
but just flying over the neighborhoods and just scanning your
1206
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:37.940
fucking backyards, I think is a big no, no.
1207
00:59:38.239 --> 00:59:40.639
I think there's going to have to be some rules
1208
00:59:40.840 --> 00:59:41.190
to it.
1209
00:59:41.199 --> 00:59:46.849
Okay. A thousand foot AGL. I don't want to come
1210
00:59:46.869 --> 00:59:48.449
in down and look at it in my windows, but
1211
00:59:48.869 --> 00:59:51.829
you know, like Chuck said, you keep it at, you
1212
00:59:51.849 --> 00:59:55.030
keep it at some altitude where it's, you know, for
1213
00:59:55.090 --> 00:59:58.000
just a limited function, then, then, it's really not that
1214
00:59:58.039 --> 00:59:58.599
much of an expense.
1215
00:59:58.659 --> 01:00:00.940
I would be, I would be okay with adding in
1216
01:00:00.980 --> 01:00:03.219
a caveat for reasonable suspicion. You have to have reasonable
1217
01:00:03.239 --> 01:00:05.119
suspicion that a crime is being committed or that a
1218
01:00:05.159 --> 01:00:07.360
suspect who has committed a crime is, is at the
1219
01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:08.179
area where you're looking.
1220
01:00:08.800 --> 01:00:08.949
Right.
1221
01:00:08.969 --> 01:00:09.949
You know how bad-ass that would be.
1222
01:00:09.969 --> 01:00:12.650
You roll up to a burglary in progress and you're
1223
01:00:12.670 --> 01:00:15.090
getting calls at suspects there now. And you're the first
1224
01:00:15.170 --> 01:00:17.369
unit on scene. You start calling in a perimeter. You're like, Hey,
1225
01:00:17.389 --> 01:00:19.289
I need people here. And you deploy a drone real quick.
1226
01:00:19.409 --> 01:00:19.650
Huh?
1227
01:00:19.670 --> 01:00:23.789
Huh? our local PD does it. They have, they have,
1228
01:00:23.809 --> 01:00:24.349
that's just.
1229
01:00:24.230 --> 01:00:26.739
So bad-ass and that, that saves so much time because
1230
01:00:26.780 --> 01:00:27.880
you can pinpoint the suspect.
1231
01:00:28.260 --> 01:00:29.760
Okay. Oh, go ahead.
1232
01:00:30.139 --> 01:00:32.820
I don't know if you, Arkansas state police, for some reason,
1233
01:00:32.860 --> 01:00:35.179
have a, you know, a kind of a viral following
1234
01:00:35.239 --> 01:00:39.070
on their high speed chases. And, and, uh, you know,
1235
01:00:39.449 --> 01:00:41.849
they get pretty dicey sometimes and some people have gotten
1236
01:00:41.889 --> 01:00:45.550
killed and whatever, uh, troopers have been hurt, but you know,
1237
01:00:46.449 --> 01:00:48.510
Why can't we get a drone that launches off the
1238
01:00:48.550 --> 01:00:51.030
top of the car and just goes and follows that
1239
01:00:51.090 --> 01:00:52.789
car so you don't have to follow them at 120
1240
01:00:52.789 --> 01:00:53.070
miles an hour?
1241
01:00:53.090 --> 01:00:53.710
Like tracking mode.
1242
01:00:53.730 --> 01:00:54.570
Yeah, yeah.
1243
01:00:54.590 --> 01:00:55.090
Great idea.
1244
01:00:55.840 --> 01:00:58.019
And take the pressure off the chase and just see
1245
01:00:58.059 --> 01:01:00.699
where they end up and then go there. That seems
1246
01:01:00.719 --> 01:01:02.599
like that technology is out there right now.
1247
01:01:02.599 --> 01:01:03.639
100%.
1248
01:01:03.639 --> 01:01:07.000
We got two more. Number four, and this one's right
1249
01:01:07.019 --> 01:01:07.599
up Bud's alley.
1250
01:01:08.780 --> 01:01:14.530
If your ring camera voluntarily provides evidence to police, does
1251
01:01:14.570 --> 01:01:16.050
that raise a constitutional concern?
1252
01:01:17.380 --> 01:01:19.679
I don't understand the question. How would it voluntarily do that?
1253
01:01:20.079 --> 01:01:23.260
Well, let's say Ring Camera, the Ring company, you know,
1254
01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:24.019
you subscribe.
1255
01:01:24.300 --> 01:01:31.070
Oh, if they voluntarily give your... That's probably a contractual
1256
01:01:31.090 --> 01:01:33.349
thing that we should be reading those terms and conditions
1257
01:01:33.389 --> 01:01:35.969
before we sign the Ring Camera agreement and we just
1258
01:01:36.030 --> 01:01:36.710
check yes.
1259
01:01:37.110 --> 01:01:38.769
Interesting. Okay.
1260
01:01:38.889 --> 01:01:41.530
I would like to think that I wouldn't knowingly agree
1261
01:01:41.590 --> 01:01:43.400
to let them just hand out my information.
1262
01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:46.300
But if they did, is there a constitutional concern?
1263
01:01:49.949 --> 01:01:52.750
I think they can do whatever they want really, unless
1264
01:01:52.789 --> 01:01:56.050
they contractually promised to not you've given them. If they,
1265
01:01:56.289 --> 01:01:58.010
if they think they have evidence of a crime or
1266
01:01:58.030 --> 01:02:00.500
the cops do and they give it over, I mean,
1267
01:02:00.519 --> 01:02:04.340
it's just like any other evidence. Somebody thinks they have
1268
01:02:04.420 --> 01:02:06.300
evidence that you've committed a crime and they give it
1269
01:02:06.320 --> 01:02:10.079
to a police. That's, Yeah. Kind of citizenship and a
1270
01:02:10.119 --> 01:02:12.300
lot of, you know, but it's troubling when you, I.
1271
01:02:12.260 --> 01:02:14.380
Think if people find out rings doing it, their stock's
1272
01:02:14.420 --> 01:02:15.719
going to drop.
1273
01:02:16.460 --> 01:02:18.780
I'm with bud on this, but also ring camera has
1274
01:02:18.820 --> 01:02:23.380
come up with a, this new technology, not new technology,
1275
01:02:23.400 --> 01:02:25.639
but this new feature on their devices. And I think
1276
01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:29.079
Google does it as well. If you lose your pet
1277
01:02:29.940 --> 01:02:32.699
and you put your pet information into that database and
1278
01:02:32.719 --> 01:02:35.219
the ring database, it's able to pick up other ring
1279
01:02:35.260 --> 01:02:38.119
cameras and, and track your dog's location. If people have
1280
01:02:38.199 --> 01:02:40.840
ring doorbells in your neighborhood.
1281
01:02:41.519 --> 01:02:41.699
Yeah.
1282
01:02:42.019 --> 01:02:43.340
So then it's like the eye in the sky and
1283
01:02:43.360 --> 01:02:45.440
out tracking people movement. You know what I mean?
1284
01:02:45.460 --> 01:02:46.679
Real quick. Last one.
1285
01:02:46.760 --> 01:02:49.119
Cause I know we, we got to get a dedication.
1286
01:02:49.159 --> 01:02:51.710
I want to be respectful, but it's time, uh, 20
1287
01:02:51.710 --> 01:02:55.389
years from now, which constitutional amendment on the bill of
1288
01:02:55.449 --> 01:02:59.170
rights will court spend the most time interpreting have will
1289
01:02:59.210 --> 01:03:01.010
have spent the most time interpreting because.
1290
01:03:00.849 --> 01:03:03.469
Of technology search and seizure.
1291
01:03:04.710 --> 01:03:04.909
Yeah.
1292
01:03:05.260 --> 01:03:08.800
I think fourth. i think it's four yeah yeah.
1293
01:03:08.179 --> 01:03:10.940
Okay well we all have an agreeance all right hey
1294
01:03:10.960 --> 01:03:13.400
good job thanks bud for coming on i want to
1295
01:03:13.420 --> 01:03:15.659
be respectful of your time chuck i know i know
1296
01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:17.980
bud does not have dedication with this episode but you do.
1297
01:03:18.619 --> 01:03:20.800
Uh i do yes and to answer that question for
1298
01:03:20.820 --> 01:03:24.730
the the fourth amendment uh flock it um anyways going
1299
01:03:24.789 --> 01:03:27.690
into the united states uh this dedication is for a
1300
01:03:27.730 --> 01:03:31.650
united states marshal um His end of watch was Monday, July.
1301
01:03:31.449 --> 01:03:31.949
13th, 2026.
1302
01:03:31.949 --> 01:03:36.210
Deputy United States Marshal Drew Hansen was shot and killed
1303
01:03:36.250 --> 01:03:39.409
while serving an arrest warrant for a fugitive on Rutland
1304
01:03:39.449 --> 01:03:43.730
Road in Alexandria, Louisiana. Around 3 p.m., members of the U.S.
1305
01:03:43.789 --> 01:03:48.309
Marshals Violent Offender Task Force and deputies with the Rapids
1306
01:03:48.349 --> 01:03:51.929
Parish Sheriff's Office were attempting to arrest a man wanted
1307
01:03:51.949 --> 01:03:54.710
for sexual battery. When deputies entered the home, they found
1308
01:03:54.730 --> 01:03:57.800
the suspect barricaded in a bedroom. He fired at officers
1309
01:03:57.889 --> 01:04:01.550
striking Deputy Marshal Hansen. The suspect, who failed to appear
1310
01:04:01.590 --> 01:04:04.989
in court, was apprehended. After a three-hour standoff, he has
1311
01:04:05.010 --> 01:04:08.110
been charged with murder. Deputy Marshal Hansen has served with
1312
01:04:08.130 --> 01:04:10.610
the United States Department of Justice, United States Marshal Service
1313
01:04:10.639 --> 01:04:12.980
for six years. He previously served with the U.S.
1314
01:04:13.019 --> 01:04:13.860
Border Patrol, U.S.
1315
01:04:13.880 --> 01:04:18.699
Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the Ocean Springs Mississippi Police Department,
1316
01:04:18.780 --> 01:04:22.619
and the Mississippi Department of Transportation, and the Gulfport Police Department.
1317
01:04:23.400 --> 01:04:26.099
Survivors include his wife, two children, and parents.
1318
01:04:28.010 --> 01:04:30.900
Rest easy, brother. We got it from here. Uh, and, uh,
1319
01:04:30.920 --> 01:04:32.449
but we want to thank you for coming back on.
1320
01:04:32.489 --> 01:04:34.820
This is time number three. So we're, we're on our way. Uh,
1321
01:04:35.829 --> 01:04:36.650
and if you guys.
1322
01:04:36.489 --> 01:04:38.710
Want to go faster, you guys, that's right.
1323
01:04:38.750 --> 01:04:39.090
Right.
1324
01:04:39.449 --> 01:04:40.570
It's fun when you're having flies.
1325
01:04:41.329 --> 01:04:44.809
Uh, if you want to send us an email for
1326
01:04:44.869 --> 01:04:47.989
single moms or big joke energy or what's up, Chuck, uh,
1327
01:04:48.010 --> 01:04:50.150
you can send it to check this out at warlock
1328
01:04:50.250 --> 01:04:52.750
or show.com right now, our banner, I have to change
1329
01:04:52.789 --> 01:04:54.690
it actually, uh, at the bottom says that we're going
1330
01:04:54.710 --> 01:04:57.889
to go live at seven 30, uh, on Thursday nights
1331
01:04:58.150 --> 01:05:01.369
and release new episodes on Fridays.
1332
01:05:01.769 --> 01:05:03.610
However, we're going to go live at seven and we're
1333
01:05:03.630 --> 01:05:05.409
going to go till eight 30. Cause we always go over,
1334
01:05:05.469 --> 01:05:06.210
we always go long.
1335
01:05:07.070 --> 01:05:09.960
And so rather than keep some of our East coasters
1336
01:05:10.300 --> 01:05:13.780
up late, we're going to start our West coasters earlier.
1337
01:05:14.380 --> 01:05:17.579
So you guys can send us your what's up, Chuck,
1338
01:05:17.599 --> 01:05:19.559
send us your single moms and it's big joke energy.
1339
01:05:19.579 --> 01:05:20.800
I get ahold of us.
1340
01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:26.739
At www.thewarlockershow.com or our YouTube channel is at warlockershow.com. please
1341
01:05:26.760 --> 01:05:29.360
hit the link to like and subscribe and do all that.
1342
01:05:29.760 --> 01:05:32.280
It really helps us out. Tell us if you have.
1343
01:05:32.179 --> 01:05:33.739
Somebody that you want to have come on the show,
1344
01:05:34.239 --> 01:05:38.269
dispatchers or, or police officers or correction officers, or, you know,
1345
01:05:38.369 --> 01:05:40.550
if you have a paid informant that, that wants to
1346
01:05:40.590 --> 01:05:44.469
talk about what that's basically at this point, we want
1347
01:05:44.489 --> 01:05:46.949
to hear from anybody that has played full contact reality
1348
01:05:48.070 --> 01:05:50.829
because reality is a contact sport. If you do it right.
1349
01:05:51.110 --> 01:05:53.969
And some of our professions like buds and, and, and
1350
01:05:54.030 --> 01:05:57.690
Chuck's and mine and our veterans out there and our firefighters,
1351
01:05:58.110 --> 01:06:00.269
you know, they're out there putting their boots on the
1352
01:06:00.289 --> 01:06:03.949
ground and, and what they do matters. And they, they
1353
01:06:04.050 --> 01:06:08.179
play the game in real time, not theoretically, right. Bud's,
1354
01:06:08.219 --> 01:06:12.000
Bud's decisions and Bud's Bud's actions and Bud's work ethic
1355
01:06:12.039 --> 01:06:14.940
and the things Bud did in the courtroom had real
1356
01:06:14.980 --> 01:06:18.739
world consequences. And, and so did the ATF agents decisions,
1357
01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:23.420
you know, as Mrs. Molinowski knows had real world consequences. So,
1358
01:06:23.880 --> 01:06:25.820
So we want to talk about that. We want to
1359
01:06:25.880 --> 01:06:29.760
we want to unpack it because, you know, reality has
1360
01:06:29.840 --> 01:06:32.769
has rules. And the rules are if you fuck around,
1361
01:06:32.789 --> 01:06:33.369
you will find out.
1362
01:06:34.510 --> 01:06:34.750
So.
1363
01:06:36.190 --> 01:06:40.510
Absolutely. Chuck, well, thanks, bud. Chuck, did you have anything
1364
01:06:40.550 --> 01:06:41.150
you want to close with?
1365
01:06:41.409 --> 01:06:42.610
Well, but thank you so much.
1366
01:06:42.949 --> 01:06:45.269
And if you have been on the wrong side of
1367
01:06:45.289 --> 01:06:47.409
the law, you've done time in prison, maybe you've been
1368
01:06:47.429 --> 01:06:48.630
on the FBI's most wanted list.
1369
01:06:48.949 --> 01:06:50.829
We want to hear from you. We've had a few of.
1370
01:06:50.829 --> 01:06:53.429
Them on, and we really want to hear people who
1371
01:06:53.469 --> 01:06:54.860
have been on the other side of the law. We
1372
01:06:54.909 --> 01:06:58.539
constantly have on the other side where it's everyone putting
1373
01:06:58.559 --> 01:06:59.360
those people away.
1374
01:07:00.320 --> 01:07:01.420
We want to hear about the other side.
1375
01:07:01.780 --> 01:07:05.059
I have an amazing number of friends who have walked
1376
01:07:05.099 --> 01:07:06.849
that walk, so I can hook you up.
1377
01:07:07.139 --> 01:07:07.619
Let's do it.
1378
01:07:07.619 --> 01:07:07.900
Absolutely.
1379
01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:08.340
All right.
1380
01:07:08.380 --> 01:07:09.059
Well, thank you, bud.
1381
01:07:09.460 --> 01:07:11.440
Thanks. And until our next episode, come home with your
1382
01:07:11.460 --> 01:07:12.039
shield or on it.