Burnham Cuts Early Prison Releases Short

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Welcome. It's nimbur Alive coming up tonight.
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Andy Burnham has tightened the rules on early prison releases,
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preventing serious sex offenders from.
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Being freed under the scheme.
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A Cambridge plagiarism scandal has entered the political mainstream, and
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former Cabinet minister Harriet Harmon says men should be barred
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from the.
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Next labor leadership race.
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I'm our Amastani and tonight I'm very happy to say
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I'm joined by Michael Walker.
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Michael, how are you very well?
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We got some meaty subjects this afternoon, some controversial ones,
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which is what we always love on this show.
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A bit of controversy. Are you going to be right
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wing Michael Walker or woke Michael Walker? Who's going to
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turn up the audience in the side.
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I'm going to be a bit woker than usual in
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the first half, and then I'm not sure in the
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second half.
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Okay, there's a nice comment there saying just put everyone
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in prison, no more crime.
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Sometimes I wonder if that's Michael Walker's position.
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Before we get started on tonight's show, tickets have just
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gone on sale for our next downstream IRL events. I'll
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see Ash Sarka sit down cultural theorist Catherine You to
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discuss her latest book, Traumatize, the New Politics of Public Suffering.
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Fantastic writer with a lot to say In it, You
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argues that as class politics has declined in the public consciousness,
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the language of psychology has stepped in to explain problems
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that are fundamentally rooted in capitalism. And to kick things off,
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I'll be speaking to Darren McGarvey, author of The Trauma
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Industrial Complex at that event will be on the twenty
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first of September at the Earth Theatre in Hackney.
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Tickets are available from the link in the description below.
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It's going to be so much fun and dare I
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say the weather should still be rather nice towards the
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end of September, so I hope to see you there
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at Prisons in Britain are a breaking point.
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That's hardly news.
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You've heard that exact line for years, so why are
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we talking about it tonight? Because prisoners are being released early.
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Of course, that's not new. Because when Labor came into
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office following the general election in twenty twenty four, Shabarnama
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Mood is Home Secretary and kiss Stama's PM, adopted and
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unpopular but most would say necessary policy. They started letting
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offenders leave prison early, something which started under the previous
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Tory government but which was now amped up.
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They significantly expanded it.
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Why did they do that well because of historic overcrowding
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in the prison estate across England and Wales, with at
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some points just one hundred places available nationally, and of
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course that meant that courts were avoiding custodial sentences where possible,
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even if it was felt they were deserved. Meanwhile, the
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Crown Prosecution Service, some argue, stopped prosecuting certain cases and
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the police wouldn't bother to make certain arrests.
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Of course that speculation.
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In short, the criminal justice system stopped working because of
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prison overcrowding. It had short circuited the entire system, and
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a short term fix was to release those prisoners who
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had served the considerable portion of their sentence and were
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now deemed to be low risk. Shavana ma Moon moved
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the automatic relief point form most standard sentences from fifty
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to forty percent of the sentence served, meaning if you'd
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been sentenced to two years in prison, you can now
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leave after nine months rather than twelve. It's important to
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say that offenders serving four years or more for violent offenses,
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as well as sex offenders and domestic abuse connected crimes
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were excluded. As a result, between September twenty twenty four
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and June twenty twenty five, nearly forty thousand prisons were
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released under this legislation. They served less time than they
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otherwise would have. That was a figure, rising to fifty
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thousand by the middle of this year. Now releases on license,
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supervised by probations, subject to curfews and tagging and recallable
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for breach.
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They aren't just led out to the world and so long.
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But of course this didn't solve the problem, so further
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changes were made at the start of this year, with
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the release date dropped again to roughly one third of
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the sentence under a new earned progression model, So basically
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you'd serve one third of a sentence, providing you met
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certain conditions. We've gone from fifty percent to forty percent
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to thirty percent regarding longer sentences for violent or sexual offenses.
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Previously recent the two thirds point the earliest release point,
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now moved to fifty percent, so most crimes stand a
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thirty percent of the sentence. But these serious crimes now
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at fifty percent, and it was that which proved hugely
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controversial and as a result, was paused for review after
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the Victims Commissioner and the Domestic Abuse Commissioner wrote to
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government ministers in July. That also came after a number
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of high profile cases, including when it became clear that
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two of the three men convicted in connection with the
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killing of PC Andrew Harper were found to be eligible.
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But the government's defense was clear without the Act, courts
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risked grinding to a halt because there was no space
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to hold people awaiting trial. Essentially, the argument was around
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earlier release and the licensed supervision or systemic collapse. Hardly
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the best choice, is it. Here's just a sectuary Alex
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Norris on the Today Program.
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Now, the impact of that, and do you recognize this
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is that some potentially very dangerous people will be released,
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including domestic abuses.
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Well, you know that people are in prison for a reason,
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you know, and that's because their behavior has been judged
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so dangerous that they have to lose their liberty. That
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is why the next stage of this process is so important.
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You know, those individuals are going to live under very
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significant control over their freedoms. Yes, they won't be in
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the prison setting, but some of them can be in
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approved premises, very very you know, very significant controls on life.
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But all of them, you know, there's a presumption on
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tagging for the first time. Beyond that there will be
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drugs and alcohol controls. There will be restrictions on what public.
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Forgive me for the second time saying they'll be serious restrictions.
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But a National Audit Office report revealed that nearly nine
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thousand offenders in England. Well, so you should have been
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wearing electronic monitoring takes. We're unmonitored. So are you actually
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convinced that these will be tough monitoring because it hasn't
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been in the past.
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It, well, I am, Nick, You know, I'm very aware
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of the kind of history in the space. Tagging is
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an important It's not the only thing, but I think
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a very important kind of fundamental of controls on behavior.
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So you know, I appreciate, again having had some of
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the conversations that I've had in recent days, the burden
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of proof will be honors to demonstrate that that works
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for me. It starts and you know, in the circumstances
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of baby Meyer and family members talking there. They want
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to have that conversation with someone who can tell them
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exactly what will happen next and what will happen with
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regards to controls on those individuals.
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I mean, people are saying that it's going to take
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time to build new prisons, it costs money. It should
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be added, five thousand new prison places are being built
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as we speak. But so much is apparently happening to
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these people that are being released with the tagging in
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various stipulations that you wonder that's costing even more.
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Michael.
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Tagging also has a very potted histrians country, not at
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least because it's outsourced. It's often the purview of CIRCO,
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and I think many people quite rightly would say, well, look,
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you're letting people out of prison, and you're saying it's
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justified because it's going to help us.
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You know, basically keep the system taking over. Okay, I
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buy that argument.
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However, I don't believe that circle administering tags is a
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worthy substitute.
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Where do you sit on this whole debate.
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I suppose there's two issues, isn't it. There's one that's
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about state capacity, and I think the argument that you're
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letting people out of prison because you failed to plan
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to have enough prison places is not a strong one, right,
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because if people already have lost faith in politics and
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they say, okay, so you're doing a policy which you
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think is a bad idea, but you're only doing it
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because you didn't plan, that doesn't fill people with confidence.
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I think your point about parole and how poor that
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is at the moment is also true. This is not
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the kind of environment you want to send people out
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of prison into. At the same time, it's also the
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nightmare inside prison, So there's lots of bad options here.
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I do think that one thing sort of I've been
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looking up more since the last time we discussed this
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is that Britain is actually quite out of the ordinary
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compared to the rest of Western European the amount of
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people that we do lock up. And that is in
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part because since the early nineties we have been giving
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people ever longer minimum terms for particular crimes, mainly because
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of public outcries. So there is an extent to which
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public opinion has been leading our judicial policy. And that
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probably does mean that there are people who are spending
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more time in prison than they need to. So if
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you compare us to sort of the Western European average,
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we put one hundred and forty to one hundred and
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forty six percent.
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For we don't put that many people in prison, or
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one hundred.
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And forty to one hundred and forty six per hundred
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thousand people are in prison in the UK.
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In England, Wales, I presume even whales.
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Good correction in the Western European average is eighty three
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out of one hundred thousand. In Germany it's sixty seven
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out of one hundred thousand, in the Netherlands it's sixty
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five out of one hundred thousand. So I suppose one
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thing I find frustrating that I'm often not particularly convinced
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by is sort of people who've who's initial reaction to
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everything is policing is not the answer, Prison's not the answer,
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and it's sort of I don't really understand why that's
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a progressive position, because it is really important to get
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dangerous people off the streets, right. It is really important
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to have a functional society which everyone can contribute to,
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and people of all classes compels feel safe, and especially
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working class people.
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If you've got high levels of crime, they're the people
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who suffer.
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The most so the position of being relaxed about crime
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being associated with the left, I think is bad. But
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I do think there is something about England and Wales
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compared to you know, very moderate social democracies in Europe,
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where in.
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Germany arguably isn't even a social democracy.
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Yeah, whereby we seem to be imprisoning peoples. From reading
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about this, it's not so much that we put more
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people into prison than other countries, it's we make them
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stay there longer. And that's in particular because of these
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minimum terms, and how a minimum term works is it's
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in legislation, so the judge doesn't have much sort of
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ability to use their own judgment.
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Because so give me an.
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Example of a minimum term where somebody is staying in
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prison for a significant period of time in a manner
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that isn't really reflected in places like Germany the Netherlands.
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I mean, I can't give you that off the top
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of my head. What crimes are I'm talking about? So
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I think we are talking about sort of violent crime.
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I think there is a minimum term if you've been
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caught three times of supplying drugs and it's seven years.
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There are a number of them. I think where if
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you've been tried a set number.
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Of times, then you do a minimum term, which sounds
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very reasonable on the face of it, but you do
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have to look at what works, and it does seem
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like we are putting more people into prison than we
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need to compared to many other very similar countries. So
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i'm and also, you know, David gork did this review.
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Now he's not lefty, right, He's a conservative politician, and
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his whole review, the whole point of it was we
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should do more of this outside of prison. We should
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have more people who were tagged in the community who
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are seeing their parole officer more often. So, and I
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think the way that we're having this debate at the
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moment in the media is sort of the same immediate
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drive to emotion that has led us into like not
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the best place. So it's a very emotionally charged conversation
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about how dare this person get out?
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How dare that person get out?
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And what that ends up with is this constant ratcheting
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effect where political parties are competing over who would be
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tougher on people in prison, right, And we've seen this
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immediately because the Conservatives, the Labour of adopted essentially a
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conservative policy, and now the conservative seat is politically expedient
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to attack it as too liberal. We'll talk about that
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more in a moment. We'll talk about that more in
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a moment. I mean, you've kind of stolen my thunder
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their Mica clocks. We're about to go to it. It doesn't matter.
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I think where the writer really desperately wrong on this
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is the fact that we clearly have the highest rates
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per one thousand people of people in prison, and Western Europe,
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like you say, we also have some of the highest
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rates of recidivism. It's the idea that it's stopping people
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from reoffending. It's just plain not correct.
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Well, it stops the one thing prison one hundred percent
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does which no one can disagree with, and which is important,
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is it you can't reoffend while you're in prison, so like, and.
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That is that matters? Right?
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That can't be the only thing the matters. I've already
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just lock everyone up and froway the key. But it
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is important that people are taken off the streets if
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they are dangerous. Well, given we're talking about people being
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let out.
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Early, and that's probably why people are so upset.
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Speaking of conservatives earlier today, it's a really that Kenny
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bad Knock had this to say.
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Labor have been too slow to do this. Andy Burnham
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has been too slow. I put an amendment down on
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legislation to stop the release of rapists and pedophiles. Labor
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and P's voted against it. They're only doing this now
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because of the pressure which I in other's Conservatives and
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others have been putting on them, and we will continue
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to do so. We do not want to see the
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early release of killers. I'm glad that the government wants
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to stop the release of rapists, but they need to
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get on with it, not just talk about it.
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The balls on these people, the balls, the brass balls.
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The reason why we're having this happen is because over
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thirteen years the Conservative Party basically didn't build any new
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prison capacity. Some was in the proces of being built
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when they got booted out of government in twenty twenty four,
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so someone was being built, you have to be fair,
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but nothing had been completed, and so they kept on
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putting more people in prison but not building more prison places.
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Guess what happens.
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The prisoner's state gets fault and the prison state gets full.
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Like we said at the top, of the story.
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You have less than one hundred spare beds at any
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one time, the system is literally going to collapse. And
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what that means is that the cps don't prosecute because
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they say, well, look there's no prison places, there's no point,
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there's no point prosecuting a relatively minor crime. The judges say, well,
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you know, you probably should have two years on side,
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but I mean to give you two months because we
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need to keep space free in prisons. So the entire
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system was screwed by this short circuit. Now, I don't
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think long term a solution to crime in this country
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is just build infinity prisons. But where we are right
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now and where we were in twenty twenty four, I
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think you need to build more capacity. By the way,
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lots of these prisons are relics from the nineteenth century.
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They need to be rebuilt anyway. Okay, So the Tories
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are to blame for so much of this. They piloted
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something which labor have now expanded. They started the actual
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policy itself, so they created the problem. They created the
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proto policy, which has since been adopted by Keir Starmer
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and now Andy Burnham and Kemy Badnock who's the Tory
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Party leader and was a minister in the Conservative governments
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responsible for all of this, is saying, actually, this is bad,
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we have to stop it.
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It's punch and judy.
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It's ridiculous And look, I can't, for the life of
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me understand why somebody would vote for the Conservatives people
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that watch and listen to this show regularly. No, I'm
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not some cheers leader for labor. I certainly don't want
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reform to be the next government. Nigel Farage measuring the
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curtains at number ten, but voting for reformers at least
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somewhat coherent.
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They've never been in before.
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If somebody says, well let's try something new, Okay, they're new,
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I don't agree with it. I don't think that's a
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reason to choose the government then new. So it's count binface.
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You want him to be the PM, but it's internally coherent.
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But you have people who genuinely seem to think they're
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tough on in order and they want a return of
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the party that didn't build new prison capacity for thirteen
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years and effectively put us on the step of collapsing
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the entire criminal justice system in this country, and on tags.
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You know, David gork Is saying that we need to
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have more tagging and more current in the community.
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They privatized all of it.
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They privatized the probation service after twenty ten, they privatized
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the outsource tagging with CIRCO repeatedly fails.
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They wanted to privatize vast sways of the police. They did.
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They actually did with some.
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Back back office offs. They privatized army recruitment. These people,
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they're crazy and then they say, oh, why does the
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system not work?
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Huh, we need more rocket community and there is no community.
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You destroyed it.
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He wants us to become a shareholder led economic zone,
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not a community, not a country. So by all means,
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bash labor. They've been in for two years. By the way,
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they could have done better than this one out. I
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think maybe Michael disagrees. We'll talk about that more in
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a moment.
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But the brass balls on Kenny.
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The mother of Andrew Harper, who was of course killed,
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Debbie Adlam, told the BBC what it meant to her
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that her son's killers were now eligible for early.
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Release pretty much that they have to be released because
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of the prison system failing et cetera, which quite frankly,
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we shouldn't be in this situation that the rapists and
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pedophiles and groom and gangs are not going to be
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eligible for early release, which is completely right, and I
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am happy about that because I think, you know, these
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are extremely dangerous people, but they shouldn't have been considered.
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Quite honestly, they should have been considered in the first
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place for early release. I mean, what sort of society
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are we're going to be living in if that's the
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standards we're keeping. So nothing's going to happen before October
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that there's no releases at all until October, so you know,
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we've got a few weeks to just try and get
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our heads around what we need to know. We need
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to put some thought into its. It's still very early
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for us to actually find this out. You know, we
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don't know where this is going to lead us emotionally yet,
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so we've got to really see what happens.
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Annie Burnham, the new Prime Minister, has given his justification
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for keeping the scheme mostly intact. He posted this on
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X The truth is I want to go even further.
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I know there will be concerns, but who will still
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be released? Early for other offenses. I've pushed the very
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limits of what it is possible to do. I know
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I can look people in the iron and save them.
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There is enough more I could have asked for without
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risking the prison system reaching capacity and collapsing within months.
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I mean that from.
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Everything I've read and listened to and watched, I mean
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that seems to be nail on head.
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Michael.
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I suppose one thing you could say is that it's
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been more than two years, slightly over two years since
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they won the general election. There could have been more
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immediate action to expand prison and capacity. That might have
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been upgrading Category C to Category B or D two C,
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or just building Nightingale prisons if people have referred to
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them as that's a lot harder than it sounds. You know,
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prisons need to be much more secure than hospitals. What's
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your take in terms of what labor could have done
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in the last two years.
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Well, I think what that interview shows you again is
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what I'm what I said before, which is saying we're
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going to let this person out who did this harm
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to your family because the prisons have run out of
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space is a terrible argument to make. That's obviously going
393
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to upset people, right, because the very framing of it
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is saying that justice isn't being done even on the
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terms that the state has has set down. So that's
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I can see why that offends people. At the same time,
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I do think it is a danger to completely ignore
398
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the idea that seems convincing that we do incarceraate too
399
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many people and even I mean, I haven't really heard
400
00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:14.920
this mention before, but when the killing of P. C.
401
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:17.880
Harper was horrible, was horrific, but the people who might
402
00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:20.319
get early release were passengers in the car.
403
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It was joined enterprise.
404
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:25.319
Yeah, right, so I'm not saying they're innocent, but getting
405
00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:28.000
so they'll have got seven years in prison. So they've
406
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:30.559
been in prison for seven years for being in the
407
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passenger seat of a car that killed someone in a brutal.
408
00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:35.920
Well, yeah, but he was dragged for a long period
409
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of time and they did nothing to stop it, right, Yes, No,
410
00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:40.599
So it's one of those instances where because often joined
411
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enterprise can be actually a little bit harsh, and this
412
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doesn't seem too one of those incidents.
413
00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:45.839
Well, I mean it's the same as most joint enterprise
414
00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:47.680
I think, but joint enterprise, you.
415
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Might you might be in the same sort of you
416
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:52.400
know space when someone does something very bad and you're
417
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charged together. It can often be racialized or it can
418
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be you know, anti working class kind of application of
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the law. Whereas they were in side a car that
420
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was moving and dragging somebody behind it for a very
421
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long period of time. But also but presumably their motives
422
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:10.720
were to desperately get away, right, So it was a callousness,
423
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not a desire to kill people. So do we know,
424
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you know, should all three of them be in prison
425
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for more than thirteen years?
426
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I don't really know.
427
00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:21.480
And would we have avoided this controversy if the judge
428
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in the first place had been able to give them
429
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seven years instead of thirteen, right, And the fact that
430
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these guys, you know, they're going to get out, they're
431
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not just going to be free to continue their life
432
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as usual, as you say, Yeah, it's a shame our
433
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parole system is outsourced.
434
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It shouldn't be.
435
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But they will be tagged, there should be sort of
436
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frequent contact between them and parole officers.
437
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So it to me, it.
438
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Doesn't seem like an ideal justice system should not have
439
00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:49.039
the possibility of those guys getting out after seven years,
440
00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:52.480
not the driver but the passengers, right. And also I
441
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just think that he is not up for earlier. And
442
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the reason why we have this ratchet effect, I think
443
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is because obviously, if you are a family member of
444
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someone who has been killed in horrific circumstances, your emotions
445
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are telling you you kind of do want them, you know,
446
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locked up with the key throne away. And we have
447
00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:15.039
this constant dialogue between politicians and people who have suffered
448
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very rare tragedies and forming the law on the basis of,
449
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you know, very sympathetic. I have, you know, complete sympathy
450
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for P. C. Harper's mother, right, he seemed a completely
451
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tragic death. He was bravely doing his job. Right, if
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you are have any relationship to him whatsoever, you were
453
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going to be distraught and also furious and especially furious
454
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that the people who you know, you thought justice had
455
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been done to are now being let out, like because
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prisons full have been filled up, like it obviously seems
457
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lucky that they've got lucky, right, because they've got out
458
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earlier than they otherwise would have done. But if the
459
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judge had said, you know, I think this probably warrant
460
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seven years. It's not clear they're going to be a
461
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danger to society for their whole life. They've been callous
462
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and irresponsible. There's not really any evidence they wanted to
463
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kill someone. I would like that, no evidence that anybody
464
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wants to kill something.
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That's why it was manslaughter not murder.
466
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Yeah, which which makes it seem like, I mean, it's
467
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seven years kind of not enough. I mean, it just
468
00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:14.039
seems like that's a question that hasn't really been asked
469
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in all of the coverage of this because it's because
470
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obviously a police officer, right, well, because he's a police officer,
471
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but also because the debate is should we let prisoners
472
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out because prisons are full. The debate isn't how long
473
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should we actually send people to prison for? How long
474
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is it useful to send people to prison for for
475
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particular crimes? And potentially there are some crimes where people
476
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:34.720
don't get sent for long enough, and there are I
477
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think probably many crimes where people get sent to prison
478
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for longer than they need to be sent And that's
479
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not the conversation we having, because we're having the conversation
480
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that constantly happens in the political mainstream, whether labor or
481
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Tories are in power, which is sort of you need
482
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to punish this person, this is an outrage victim or
483
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family of victim. And then you have a ratcheting up
484
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effect because it's sort of politically really difficult to the
485
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time that people go to prison, which again is probably
486
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why so lots of these sort of European countries where
487
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you have fewer people in prison their proportional representation, right,
488
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so you can have or at least historically you've been
489
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able to have policy making which is a bit less
490
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:17.200
zero sum, right, So instead of it being here, when
491
00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:19.200
the labor in opposition, they attack the tourists for being
492
00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:21.160
two week, When toys are in opposition, they attack labor
493
00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:23.880
for being two week. Right, it's constantly this ratcheting effect.
494
00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:27.079
If you have a grand coalition where the Cycial Democrats
495
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:29.559
and the Christian Democrats in Germany are both in power,
496
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:31.960
they can say, okay, well, the prisons are filling up.
497
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.799
It's not actually particularly beneficial to anyone to send these
498
00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:37.200
people to prison for ten to fifteen years, long after
499
00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:39.880
they're a danger to anyone, So shall we just agree
500
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:42.559
to depoliticize this issue and let them out after seven
501
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:45.119
And that to me seems like probably a more rational
502
00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:50.160
way of doing policy. So I'm concerned about the way
503
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:53.119
this narrative is being driven. I think Andy Burnham, as
504
00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:55.079
a politician, is dealing with it exactly right. You have
505
00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:57.559
to choose your battles when you're a prime minister, especially
506
00:23:57.559 --> 00:23:59.480
when you're a labor prime minister. If I was him,
507
00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:02.000
this isn't about I choose right now. But I think
508
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:05.039
in a more rational society our debate might look quite different.
509
00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:06.319
Another win for PR.
510
00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:07.680
By the way, I totally agree with you, we'd have
511
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:11.200
a much more sensible criminal justice system in this country.
512
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:13.319
I think, much more effective outcomes if we had PR
513
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:14.440
or not first past the post.
514
00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:17.319
Another reason they have PR, which I think generally.
515
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:19.799
Speaking, everybody here and of our immediate agrees on. Has
516
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:22.119
Michael ever done anything illegal in his life? I'll let
517
00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:25.559
you answer that, but yes, yes. And then similarly, has
518
00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:28.200
Michael ever been to a protest? The two questions are related.
519
00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:30.759
Have you done anything illegal in your life?
520
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:35.200
I've blocked a plane from taking off in protest at
521
00:24:35.240 --> 00:24:39.920
the expansion of Stansted Airport with plane stupid. I mean
522
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:41.599
that would be terrorism when I was eighteen, that would
523
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:44.240
be terrorism now at the time. It was aggravated trespass.
524
00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:48.720
So that's the only crime I've been charged and convicted for.
525
00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:50.240
I won't admit to any others.
526
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:52.920
Michael walks the walk, folks, and look, I've also I've
527
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:55.279
been I've been found guilty of anersorda on a protest.
528
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:57.240
So we both have some. We have some.
529
00:24:57.599 --> 00:24:59.839
So the comments are still making out that I'm making
530
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.519
I'm right wing argument. I'm saying, send less people to prison.
531
00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:05.480
Michael's the work right on your side right now, what's
532
00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:05.880
going on?
533
00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:07.200
He's your guy.
534
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:09.000
I have.
535
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:12.920
I have personally experienced the outsourcing of the probation service,
536
00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:17.599
having served two hundred hours plus of probation after twenty eleven,
537
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:19.799
and I saw what a complete waste of time and
538
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:21.880
resource it was for everybody.
539
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:24.759
It was fifty hours of community service. I thought it
540
00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:26.720
was quite interesting, you know what the business.
541
00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:29.640
I got involved just after it was outsourced, and I
542
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.200
remember talking to the two guys who were the probation
543
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:35.839
officers to Jamaican guys. I mean they were born in Jamaica,
544
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:37.319
the head Jamaican accents, but they've been here for a
545
00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:40.000
very long time. One of them was actually much older,
546
00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:41.720
and I talked to them about the stuff at length
547
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:43.640
and they were just like, the whole thing is screwed.
548
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:47.880
Very very interesting experience, two hundred hours, a little bit long.
549
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:51.279
In February twenty twenty three, Cambridge University made an academic
550
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:53.599
appointment that generated glowing headlines.
551
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:54.480
A Jason R.
552
00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:57.200
Day, a thirty seven year old academic, was appointed Professor
553
00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:00.920
of Sociology of Education, making him the youngest ever Black
554
00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:04.160
scholars all day professorial post at the university. In a
555
00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:07.000
BBC interview shortly after his appointment, Arde was asked about
556
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:09.640
how the new job tied into his work in education.
557
00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:13.319
In many respects, it's a continuation of my overall mission,
558
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:18.079
which is to democratize and find a way to redistribute
559
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:23.359
the resources sector y to the most disadvantaged, and that
560
00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:26.720
becomes hugely integral too. Has always been integral to my mission.
561
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:32.960
And whilst getting this post is significant, I guess from
562
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:37.759
the history aspect in a really important way, and I
563
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:40.440
think it's very important to caveat this. There isn't a
564
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:43.240
sense of enjoyment one can take from knowing that when
565
00:26:43.319 --> 00:26:46.039
you stand upon this vista and you look towards your
566
00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:48.839
left and your right, your peers are absent, and so
567
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.640
in that regard, there is no joy to be taken
568
00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:54.000
from that. The solace that one would take from that
569
00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:56.880
kind of situation is that, actually, I'm going to focus
570
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:00.519
even more so now and use the platform privilege that
571
00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:03.359
I've been given to really find a way to redistribute
572
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:06.480
those resources and really continue the work that I've been
573
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:08.400
fortunate enough to do for the last ten years.
574
00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:12.039
Some very noble, laudable aims there, but Arde now finds
575
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:14.839
himself at the center of a scandal, with questions swirling
576
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.480
around the quality of his academic scholarship, as well as
577
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:21.519
the veracity of certain biographical claims the young professor has made.
578
00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:21.960
In the past.
579
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:25.319
Now, we have to be clear the original accusations against
580
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:28.519
our day were made by individuals who may have their
581
00:27:28.519 --> 00:27:31.920
own agendas. And Nathan Kofnas is a philosopher who has
582
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:34.240
been explicit that he's on a mission to end the
583
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:38.880
tyranny of what he calls wokism by popularizing the view
584
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:42.400
that intelligence, as well as other traits, are largely hereditary
585
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:46.400
and that talents are not equally distributed across ethnic groups.
586
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:48.799
It's a view he calls race realism.
587
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:51.720
In twenty twenty four, his research position at a manual
588
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:55.519
college Cambridge was terminated after he wrote, amongst other things,
589
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:59.599
that based on a pure meritocracy quote, blacks would disappear
590
00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.599
from all almost all high profile positions outside of sports
591
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:05.319
and entertainment disgusting thing to say.
592
00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:07.559
At The University of Cambridge ruled.
593
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.799
Later on that his speech was lawful, but last month
594
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:14.599
Kaufnass publicly accused Ardev plagiarizing large parts of his PhD
595
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:18.240
thesis earned at Liverpool John Moorees University in twenty fifteen
596
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:21.599
after he ran it through a piece of plagiarism protection software,
597
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:24.359
and analysis by The Times appears to back koff Nass
598
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:26.440
up with more than one hundred passages found in his
599
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:30.200
PhD that was similar to the work of another researcher at.
600
00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:30.880
The Times writes.
601
00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:33.640
This analysis by the Times of Ardea's thesis from twenty
602
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:36.640
fifteen on the subject of peer mentoring among student teachers
603
00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:40.039
found multiple examples of identical or near identical passages the
604
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:44.480
doctoral thesis of Paula zavadjack Myers, a Brunelli University student,
605
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:47.640
published six years earlier. As jack Myers has mentioned seventeen
606
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:50.559
times in Ardea's thesis as are dozens of other academics
607
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:54.119
in forty five pages of references. The raw evolves around
608
00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:56.920
whether Ardae should have cited her every time he paraphrased
609
00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:00.680
or recycled her work. Nathan Kaffnats, who popped this week's
610
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.440
blog post, claimed that Our Day had relied heavily on
611
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:08.319
Swadjack Myers for key ideas and arguments. In Interview of
612
00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:11.799
The Times on Friday, Our Day addressed questions around his scholarship,
613
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:14.640
saying this, it's so destroying because I've done everything i
614
00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:16.799
can to try and do the best I can. And
615
00:29:16.839 --> 00:29:18.680
I'm not saying that I'm perfect, and I never tried
616
00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:21.440
to present this fairytale narrative that I am. I don't
617
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:23.279
think people realize that there's a human being at the
618
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:25.319
end of this, and they don't realize that the human
619
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:29.160
being is someone's father or a son. I'm accountable for
620
00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:31.880
the mistakes I've made. I hold myself accountable, and other
621
00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:35.240
people should hold me accountable. We're talking about academia here.
622
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:37.599
I didn't murder somebody. I think the cruelty that I've
623
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:39.519
experienced and the positioning of me is this kind of
624
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:44.759
liar and fantasist is totally unacceptable. The question of plagiarism
625
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:47.599
was also subject to a review by an academic misconduct
626
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:51.880
panel at Liverpool John Moowes, after complaints about possible plagiarism
627
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:55.920
were received last year. That panel cleared Our Day, and
628
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:58.960
on Times Radio, Nell's Abbey, who assigned a letter in
629
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.480
defense of Our Day, stood up for the academic Why.
630
00:30:02.359 --> 00:30:06.000
Is it that every single movement, or every single step
631
00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:12.480
towards black liberation or equality or reconstruction is rapidly destroyed,
632
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:15.920
or is rapidly lampooned, or is rapidly torn down. I
633
00:30:16.039 --> 00:30:18.000
just I pose that question to you because I come
634
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:21.160
here this morning seeking answers as much as I seek
635
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:21.799
to answer.
636
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:26.559
Okay, well, I will give you a response that I
637
00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:29.079
think you are right to suggest, and I think other
638
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:31.559
people are right to suggest that people have got it
639
00:30:31.640 --> 00:30:35.400
in for Jason, are they? I also think he has
640
00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:39.039
questions to answer about the near duplication of other people's
641
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:42.359
work that has appeared in his work, and that both
642
00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:44.119
those things can be true at once.
643
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:48.960
Well, I don't think that answers my question, because I
644
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:52.200
think there's a more broader situation happening here today. It's
645
00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:54.880
Jason Ardy. Last month who was miss Ann harry Man
646
00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:57.359
months ago. As somebody is always a pipe and I've
647
00:30:57.359 --> 00:30:58.680
seen this time and time and time again.
648
00:30:58.759 --> 00:31:00.599
So are you saying that black people held to a
649
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:02.519
higher standard than their wife?
650
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:05.880
I say black people are black people, not just all
651
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:09.599
black and black people who harbor a desire to actually
652
00:31:09.640 --> 00:31:13.400
improve the outcomes of life and life and life outcomes
653
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:16.440
and quality of life for black black women genuinely love
654
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:20.160
black people. They often find themselves at the at the
655
00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:23.079
being torn down very, very significantly, the way that say,
656
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:25.960
I don't know people who harbor what I would describe
657
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:29.119
as clear cut white supremacist tendencies are not torn down
658
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:29.519
at all?
659
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:30.200
Are they?
660
00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:33.759
Whose autobiography is published later this month, has been celebrated
661
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:36.480
for his academic achievements. He's the author of over a
662
00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:38.920
dozen peer reviewed articles, the sole author of three books,
663
00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:42.319
and has written several chapters in edited volumes. No doubt
664
00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:47.119
they'll also be subject to significant scrutiny as well. All
665
00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:49.319
of that is despite coming from a very difficult background.
666
00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:52.640
This is from Cambridge University's website. Arda has faced many
667
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:55.400
personal challenges, notably being diagnosed the age of three, the
668
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:58.279
form of autism spectrum disorder, which meant he was unable
669
00:31:58.319 --> 00:31:59.839
to speak until he was eleven, or to read or
670
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:02.759
write he was eighteen. Therapists and career advisers predicted he
671
00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:05.079
would spend his adult life in assisted living and required
672
00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:08.880
lifelong support. Instead, through personal determination and the support of
673
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:10.799
family and close friends, he went to college Strender as
674
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:14.559
a teacher and then launched his academic career. Urda's interests
675
00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:18.160
haven't only been academic. He's also been a keen charity fundraiser,
676
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:21.039
but in a piece published over the weekend, The Guardian
677
00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:23.920
raised questions about some claims he's made on that front.
678
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:26.599
Two This is from that article. He has claimed in
679
00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:29.359
media interviews to have raised five million pounds for charities
680
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:31.960
over a twenty year period. Sometimes this figure has risen
681
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.559
to five five million. He's done this, he says, by
682
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:37.200
running thirty marathons in thirty five days, a feat he
683
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.079
has spoken about amedia interviews and in his book. He
684
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:42.279
also claimed that public events to have run six hundred
685
00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:44.759
miles and six days. When asked if the five million
686
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:47.880
pound figure was accurate, Arde clarified to the Guardian that
687
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:49.440
the money was raised with the help of quite many
688
00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:50.400
fundraising collectives.
689
00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:51.920
Over a two decade period.
690
00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:54.319
When asked to identify other people who took part in
691
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:57.079
these efforts, Arde said he had signed NDAs preventing him
692
00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:01.200
from disclosing that information. The thirty athans over thirty days
693
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:03.680
was also put to Our day. The Guardian also asked
694
00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:05.960
Arde but has claimed to run six hundred miles in
695
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.400
six days, an achievement that would make him on of
696
00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:10.920
the world's most gifted insurance runners. The first woman to
697
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:13.799
achieve the feat, Megan Ecker, only managed it last year.
698
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.440
The men's record is six hundred and fifty miles. He
699
00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:19.519
said that's because of the quote cumuitive wear and terror
700
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:22.720
of training from his previous running challenges. He quote had
701
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:24.920
to put rest days in between the running days just
702
00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:27.599
to finish the six hundred mile challenge, which was actually
703
00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:30.720
completed over a twelve day period. Asked by The Times
704
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:33.559
why he didn't create the record, Arde said this, could
705
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:35.759
I have ever guessed that somebody would literally comb through
706
00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:38.400
every single word I've ever said on that. There's no way,
707
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:42.160
because I never ever guessed I'd ever be in this position.
708
00:33:42.440 --> 00:33:44.880
Ardae has been subject to racist emails and abuse from
709
00:33:44.920 --> 00:33:47.519
the moment he began his job at Cambridge, but The
710
00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:50.799
Guardian has also investigated allegations he made a very severe
711
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:53.960
racial harassment at reporting this in an open letters to
712
00:33:53.960 --> 00:33:56.359
the Government as the Jackie Smith in July twenty twenty five,
713
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:59.640
which outlined Arday's experiences, he claimed to have been quote
714
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:02.440
threatened with a knife, physically assaulted and spat on, had
715
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:04.599
rape and death threats being made to him and his family,
716
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:07.720
bananas and bullets being posted to and via the university campus,
717
00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:11.360
and corrosive substances and mutilated animals sent to his family home.
718
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:14.199
The report goes on, so this Arde confirmed an interview
719
00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:16.239
of The Guardian that quote the mutilated animal sends his
720
00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:18.800
family home. Mentioned in the open letter was a severed
721
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:21.639
pig's head delivered in a large cardboard box was parents
722
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:24.519
home addressed in South London. He claimed to have intercepted
723
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:27.039
the package and immediately thrown it away, only telling the
724
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:29.760
police several months later. In a subsequent interview, he claimed
725
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:32.480
the police investigated checking with butchers in South London if
726
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:35.679
they'd sold a pig, eventually finding one that had sold
727
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.400
quote a whole hog on the morning the head was
728
00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:41.440
left outside the family home. When The Guardian checked those
729
00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:43.559
details with the local butcher's are they named.
730
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:45.840
They said no police officer had come into Arson about
731
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:46.119
a pig.
732
00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:48.519
When asked if they were sure, the butcher said, quote,
733
00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:51.119
that's the kind of thing we'd remember. When the details
734
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:53.440
Arde gave but the pig's head investigation were checked by
735
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:57.199
London's Metropolitan Police, the Guardian was told they were categorically
736
00:34:57.239 --> 00:35:01.519
incorrect and no investigation had take place. When The Guardian
737
00:35:01.559 --> 00:35:04.119
asked Arday about the claims, it reportedly stood by them,
738
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:08.199
saying that dishonesty would have jeopardized his career, adding this,
739
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:10.800
to be honest with you, I thought you just believed me.
740
00:35:11.159 --> 00:35:11.960
Why would I lie?
741
00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:14.679
Now there's a lot to talk about here, but there's
742
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:18.239
one article in the Telegraph that really misses the point.
743
00:35:18.760 --> 00:35:22.360
According to Celia Walden, in her days at Cambridge adjacent,
744
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:25.280
Ardae's claims wouldn't lasted five minutes because of their zero
745
00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:29.639
tolerance approach to plagiarism. Well Walden was born in nineteen
746
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:31.719
seventy five, meaning that when she was at Cambridge in
747
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:35.280
the early nineties, plagiarism went largely undetected because there wasn't
748
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:38.599
the technology to catch it. As a result, academics with
749
00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:41.000
an agenda found it much harder to weaponize what has
750
00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:44.079
always been a fairly common crime. And unlike in the
751
00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:46.920
case of the allegations against our day, the antidote, when
752
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:49.480
it's found in published work, is generally a quiet correction,
753
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:53.559
not a public hounding. Michael, I'm going to go to
754
00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:55.480
a comment before I come to you, because it's very,
755
00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:57.840
very useful. I'm going to read it out and it's
756
00:35:58.079 --> 00:35:59.880
something I actually agree with. That's why we're going to
757
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:02.840
straight off the bat. This is from at Chloe Guzman
758
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:05.400
ninety three. I can tell you that six percent of
759
00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:09.719
his PhD was classed as plagiarized Liverpool John Moore's university
760
00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:12.800
had reassessed it. The biographical claims, yes, but the PhD
761
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:18.320
he earned my dad literally was his tutor. From what
762
00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:20.639
I've read, I've not read the PhD. From what I've read,
763
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:24.000
it seems like it was probably just bad referencing in the.
764
00:36:26.679 --> 00:36:27.079
Vibor.
765
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:30.519
You get some corrections, you should probably be told to
766
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:34.440
go away and do the formatting correctly. But I don't
767
00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:38.239
think it's plagiarism with intense plagiarize. The person whose PhD
768
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:41.559
is at State Care is referenced elsewhere repeatedly in the PhD,
769
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:43.239
So I think it's.
770
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:47.199
Probably just bad formatting, bad referencing. I buy that. I
771
00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:48.079
think they bought it.
772
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:54.199
However, on the biographical claims, that stuff does seem rather atlandish,
773
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:59.599
doesn't it. Yes, I mean lots of it doesn't sound true.
774
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.559
So if you've been sort of threatened with a knife
775
00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:05.280
at your place of work, but you don't tell anyone
776
00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:08.840
and you just continue with your day and then sort of,
777
00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:10.800
you know, it's obviously not something you take casually, because
778
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:13.119
then it becomes a story that you sort of use
779
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:14.639
in interviews.
780
00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:14.880
Or books or whatever.
781
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:18.119
The pig one, I mean, there's no pictures of the pig,
782
00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:20.800
so he's sort of apparently just put it in a bin,
783
00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:24.800
and then the story involving the butchers has fallen apart,
784
00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:28.599
And obviously I see why. Obviously, when this started happening,
785
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:31.920
there was a big open letter defending this guy, sort
786
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:35.400
of saying this is all a smear campaign, prestigious people
787
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:38.079
signing it. And I can see why that happens, because
788
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:42.239
there is a campaign against this guy, in part because
789
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:47.599
of his race, and much of it's very unpleasant. At
790
00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:51.159
the same time, he does seem like he has a
791
00:37:51.159 --> 00:37:52.159
lot of questions to answer you.
792
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:54.079
If I'm honest.
793
00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:57.840
I have no real independent way of saying how much
794
00:37:57.880 --> 00:38:01.360
plagiarism is normal in an academic work, Like I'm not
795
00:38:01.400 --> 00:38:02.039
an academic.
796
00:38:02.440 --> 00:38:02.920
It would be.
797
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:05.719
Interesting to see if you chose, you know, if you
798
00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:09.119
just sort of looked through the Cambridge faculty at random
799
00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:11.159
and chose them and put all of their work through
800
00:38:11.639 --> 00:38:14.920
this technology which shows what is stolen from others people's work,
801
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:17.559
if it would be similar to this guy's, right, you
802
00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:20.079
need something to compare it to, And at the moment
803
00:38:20.119 --> 00:38:25.000
I don't have that. I think what's more convincing to
804
00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:28.360
me than the plagiarism stuff is that. So he's a
805
00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:31.239
qualitative researcher, so it's all based on sort of interviews,
806
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:33.760
some of its autoethnography, so it's based on his own experiences.
807
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:35.440
And it does seem like.
808
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:40.519
In the interviews people who he is supposed to have
809
00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:44.880
spoken to, and their quotes sort of appear across different
810
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:50.199
papers under slightly different identities, So it doesn't seem like
811
00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:52.679
this you should anomize that data generally speaking, as an
812
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:55.079
ethical point, you should generally should anonymize.
813
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:55.920
But it's not about names.
814
00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:59.639
It's about giving them different characteristics because are they an
815
00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:00.800
academ or are they are student?
816
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:02.199
So on one paper there are a students.
817
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:05.440
It's not that their names have changed, it's that their
818
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:09.559
characteristics have changed in a sense that undermines whether these
819
00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:13.639
were real interviews. Right, And as I say, I'm not
820
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:15.519
an expert on this, I'm not an expert on academic
821
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:18.440
standards whatsoever. But there's one issue, which is plagiarism, which
822
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:20.679
is have you not attributed properly? And then there's the other issue,
823
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:23.679
which is, you know, closer to academic fraud, which is
824
00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:27.840
are the interviews you are citing real interviews or are
825
00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:33.480
you sort of using or reciting or regurgitating different comments
826
00:39:33.480 --> 00:39:36.079
from different people in different places, whether or not they
827
00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:36.880
actually happened.
828
00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:38.519
There is also some sloppiness.
829
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:40.519
There's a rogue apostrophe in the title of his PhD,
830
00:39:40.760 --> 00:39:41.440
which is a bit but.
831
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:43.679
Even that's something for correct for people who aren't familiar
832
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:45.559
with this. You do your PhD, you submit the PhD,
833
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:47.599
then a few months later, a vibe you have somebody
834
00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:50.119
from inside your institution, you have an external examiner, and
835
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:52.440
they would do corrections, right, So, and if there's no corrections,
836
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:55.199
you get no corrections. Fabulous, you've done amazing, great, but
837
00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:57.400
is it not very usual? Or you get corrections and
838
00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:00.000
they might be Actually, this chapter doesn't make much sense,
839
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:03.719
your hypothesis isn't very good or whatever. You know, change
840
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:05.719
these things and then we'll pass you later on. And
841
00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:06.840
that can include grammatical problem.
842
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:09.360
The question isn't whether this guy should have got a PhD.
843
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:11.480
And that's down that's down to the exactly, but it's
844
00:40:11.480 --> 00:40:13.119
not him. But the question isn't should this guy have
845
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:15.039
got PhD? The question is should he have been given
846
00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:18.880
this very prestigious professorship, right, And if you are a professor,
847
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:22.159
if you've been promoted to professor, one would expect that
848
00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:26.880
your academic standards are reasonably high without you know, having
849
00:40:26.920 --> 00:40:30.800
to be constantly supervised so that you do it right. Right,
850
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:32.639
And he sort of said, oh, I couldn't afford a proofreader,
851
00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:33.360
et cetera, et cetera.
852
00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:35.039
But that's not that's not his problem, right.
853
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:37.880
So let's say he's gone to submit a PhD and
854
00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:41.039
the and the examiners for whatever reason, haven't told him
855
00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:43.280
to make the corrections that you just identified, right, which
856
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:44.599
obviously I mean that sounds a lands right.
857
00:40:44.679 --> 00:40:46.360
The title didn't have the opposture in the right place.
858
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:47.480
But that's not his fault.
859
00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:51.400
I'm sure that that happens quite a lot, right, Well,
860
00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:54.599
it's not pot phdtients. They might be given to they
861
00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:56.639
might be too light, but they might know the external
862
00:40:56.719 --> 00:40:58.760
examiner and they you know, they let them off the
863
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:00.679
hook all the kind of thing. So that happens all
864
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:02.320
the time, I'm sure, And it works the other way
865
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:06.000
as well. People are mistreated for ill in the viva,
866
00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:09.960
but that's not his fault. And then he gets offered
867
00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:14.119
a job because he's seen as a you know, for
868
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:16.880
the institution. He's probably seen as a really credible, you know,
869
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:20.599
voice in the field. He's young, they're trying to say
870
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:23.400
something about their institution within a certain sort of political moment.
871
00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:27.639
He's a good puck speaker, so you might say it
872
00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:28.719
was a political pointment or not.
873
00:41:28.840 --> 00:41:29.440
Or they're trying to.
874
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:31.960
Overcome very real deficits in their institution, like a lack
875
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:33.840
of representation among minority communities.
876
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:35.840
These are all very real things. But again that's not
877
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:36.360
his fault.
878
00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:38.639
So you might say that he's just a mediaoocre academic
879
00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:42.760
who wasn't corrected properly. And then he's over promoted. But
880
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:44.639
I don't see what that's We can talk about the
881
00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:45.639
biography stuff in a MINUTX.
882
00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:46.559
I think that is really weird.
883
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:48.840
Well, that's not on him. That says more about the
884
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:50.320
institutions in academic, doesn't it.
885
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:52.480
Yeah. Yeah, I mean I'm not interested in like laying
886
00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:55.440
blame here, Like I don't. I'm not morally outraged that
887
00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:58.760
someone's academic work might have been a bit shoddy on
888
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:01.719
first drafting to do with me. But the point that's
889
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:05.400
being made, and which someone like Nathan Coffiness will be
890
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:07.519
very pleased sort of many people are reading from this
891
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:10.840
is that it does look like someone got promoted to
892
00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:14.320
a very prestigious position when their work was a.
893
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:17.840
Bit sloppy, and when people tried to write about this before.
894
00:42:18.039 --> 00:42:21.280
So there was an article in the Times Higher Education
895
00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:25.039
Review I can't remembers, or is it just called Times
896
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:25.639
Higher Education?
897
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:26.159
I think, isn't it?
898
00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:28.840
So they were going to publish an article about his
899
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:32.639
work and sort of the sloppiness involved, and I think
900
00:42:32.679 --> 00:42:36.039
with the interviews it's maybe more than sloppiness. And then
901
00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:39.000
he enlisted Carter Ruck to threaten them for defamation, which
902
00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:41.360
is a very sort of like aggressive law firm and
903
00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:42.280
it was spike.
904
00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:43.519
Not cheap, not cheap.
905
00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:48.480
So I'm not sure this is a guy that people
906
00:42:48.519 --> 00:42:53.239
should be closing ranks around, essentially, But I'm you know,
907
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:58.079
I also feel like, you know, he's being attacked left,
908
00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:01.239
right and center in public, and I'm not, you know,
909
00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:05.280
particularly keen to join in the because it's unpleasant.
910
00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:07.199
Right, he built up this career.
911
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:10.760
Now people have noticed that it doesn't all quite add up,
912
00:43:11.480 --> 00:43:13.639
and the whole edifice is crumbling, and for him, I
913
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:15.599
just feel sorry for him, right, you know, maybe he
914
00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:17.320
made up some stuff. I think, to be honest, if
915
00:43:17.320 --> 00:43:19.639
you make up stuff about hate crimes that's actually not
916
00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:22.000
I think that's quite a despicable thing to do in
917
00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:25.760
a way, because one you're instilling fearing people really important
918
00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:29.280
issue that you're making light of. If if as my
919
00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:32.519
interpretation of some of these articles are, they didn't seem
920
00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:35.519
like they actually happened, that that is what did happen,
921
00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:38.679
and then yeah, that's very morally wrong to me. But
922
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:42.039
you're right, the issue about the sloppy work and getting
923
00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:44.960
the position and then Cambridge closing ranks, that's more about
924
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.119
Cambridge than it is about in our day. But I
925
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:49.519
think the point that many of the right wing critics
926
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:51.320
are trying to make is about Cambridge. They're saying that
927
00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:55.559
standards have fallen in academia in part because after the
928
00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:58.000
BLM movement they realized, oh my god, we don't have
929
00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:01.800
enough faculty from a particular background. Let's do a really
930
00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:04.519
rush job of trying to promote some people. And actually
931
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:09.119
this is having a negative effect on everyone because there
932
00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:11.239
is an argument made by people like Nathan Coffners that
933
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:15.800
you can only promote people to professorships from black backgrounds
934
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:18.039
if you lower standards. And obviously I don't think that's true,
935
00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:20.760
but if you want an example of where it looks
936
00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:22.599
like maybe the standards were lower, this would be it.
937
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:24.840
So they should have looked much harder and got a
938
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:29.079
black professor whose job was less, whose work was less sloppy,
939
00:44:29.639 --> 00:44:33.320
because you know, the consequence of this aren't really going
940
00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:34.079
to be good for anyone.
941
00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:37.360
They went for a vibe, right, young dynamic.
942
00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:41.239
I think so media engagement, media savvy, great story, great,
943
00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:44.480
great story, remarketable. And that's why the biography matters as well,
944
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:46.920
because one of the reasons that he got this star
945
00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:49.119
professorship was because he had such a story and now
946
00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:53.320
parts of the story you know, on second reading, don't
947
00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:55.239
seem entirely credible.
948
00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:56.840
But don't you think there's two points here? And we'll
949
00:44:56.840 --> 00:44:57.480
go to our next story.
950
00:44:57.679 --> 00:44:59.079
And you might think while were talking about this, I
951
00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:00.920
think it's so important and to talk about the story
952
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:02.480
not because of who this guy's but what it says
953
00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:05.599
a about our education. But be also, I think it's
954
00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:09.199
a bit of a myth around meritocracy. So this idea
955
00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:11.960
that you know, university is always meritocratic, and now they're not,
956
00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:14.800
and now a certain you know, set of people benefit
957
00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:17.159
from the lack of meritocracy, whereas you know, I was
958
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:19.360
talking about this with our great colleague goer On Stephen,
959
00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:22.760
there wasn't meritocracy in the past, and we've basically swapped
960
00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:25.039
one form of opposition to meritocracy for another.
961
00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:26.840
You know, these people basically say that there are a
962
00:45:26.920 --> 00:45:29.119
bunch of people who shouldn't be in these institutions, they're
963
00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:31.119
not good enough to be there because of xyz.
964
00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:33.599
You would have made the same argument four years ago.
965
00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:36.000
A bunch of people who've gone to public schools who
966
00:45:36.039 --> 00:45:38.760
fundamentally shouldn't be at Oxford Cambridge, Right, Prince Charles or
967
00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:40.800
King Charles is now called I think he went to
968
00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:44.880
Cambridge on god knows what a levels, But you know,
969
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:48.440
that's that's how it worked. King King soon to be
970
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:51.199
King William went to Saint Andrew's. From everything I've been
971
00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:55.639
told by people who've met him, you know, the smartest chap.
972
00:45:55.800 --> 00:46:00.679
But anyway, this idea that meritocracy determines what the institutions
973
00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:04.000
look like isn't true. But we only talk about it
974
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:05.440
in the media, or we only hear about it in
975
00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:07.039
the media when it's about a black guy.
976
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:10.119
I mean that seems to me quite fair. Yeah, I mean,
977
00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:12.039
there's definitely a large amount of truth to it. I
978
00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:13.559
mean there are right wing people that got handed out
979
00:46:13.559 --> 00:46:16.880
of universities as well. I mean, I think in general universities,
980
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:20.039
especially in many humanities departments, and especially in sort of
981
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:23.679
something like education studies, they are very very left wing spaces,
982
00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:27.800
and I think actually they probably would benefit from a
983
00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:31.440
bit more intellectual diversity. Jonathan Hate makes a great point
984
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:33.480
about this in his book The Coddling of the American Mind,
985
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:36.719
where he's sort of looking at the polling of what
986
00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:41.000
way academics vote in various departments in various universities and
987
00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:42.840
some of it's like ninety seven percent Democrat or whatever.
988
00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:45.280
And it's not just sort of like equal opportunities or
989
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:46.599
Republicans should have rights too.
990
00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:48.480
It's that if.
991
00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:51.280
Everyone in a discipline kind of agrees with each other,
992
00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:54.559
then they're not going to hold their feet to the
993
00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:56.559
fire in the same way that you would like to do.
994
00:46:56.679 --> 00:46:58.559
That's why I like going on like right wing shows
995
00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:01.519
or debating like prison Abolition, because sort of like having
996
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:05.000
debates makes you sharpen your arguments a little bit. And
997
00:47:05.079 --> 00:47:08.559
I think there are a lot of departments in sociology
998
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:11.880
or education studies like this guy was in, where everyone
999
00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:16.599
feels very safe in their kind of blue sky, very
1000
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:20.000
hyper left wing, you know. And I do think the
1001
00:47:20.039 --> 00:47:23.000
standards sometimes aren't incredibly high, and so I think there
1002
00:47:23.079 --> 00:47:26.079
is some merit to the argument that is made about
1003
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:28.679
some of these I suppose softer disciplines.
1004
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:30.599
Can I just say something very quickly, because I mean,
1005
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:33.440
I've have some experience in these spaces. I actually think
1006
00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:36.880
the worst most closed minded people in academia aren't left wing.
1007
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:40.920
They are hyper centrist liberals who were codd as.
1008
00:47:40.920 --> 00:47:41.840
Left wing by the right.
1009
00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:44.480
These are people who were very much stop Brexit as
1010
00:47:44.519 --> 00:47:46.079
I mean, I'm saying, you know, Brexit was a great thing,
1011
00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:49.159
but they were very much stop Brexit, anti Jeremy Corbyn,
1012
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:54.519
you know, anti Boris Johnson, vote Lib Dem. And honestly,
1013
00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:56.599
I can say this is somebody who did undergraduate master
1014
00:47:56.679 --> 00:47:59.559
greephd the most closed minded people in academia.
1015
00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:02.199
So I agree with you. And by the way, they
1016
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:03.199
in certain disciplines that.
1017
00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:08.559
Political science, sociology, less so economics, public policy. Those people
1018
00:48:08.599 --> 00:48:11.000
are everywhere. There's a profusion of them. They vote left,
1019
00:48:11.559 --> 00:48:15.280
they vote labor center left. Let's say, I mean often
1020
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:18.360
they'll scab on strikes. They won't necessarily think that cleaners
1021
00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:20.599
should be in house. They have no problem to being outsourced.
1022
00:48:20.599 --> 00:48:23.639
So I have questions what their left wing. But those
1023
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:26.760
people are the backbone of academia one hundred percent. And
1024
00:48:26.840 --> 00:48:28.960
I would say that right wing people aren't in academia,
1025
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:32.800
not because academia excludes them, but because right wing people
1026
00:48:33.400 --> 00:48:37.239
are generally motivated by money. Well, hold on, are left
1027
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:39.639
wing people or progressive? These people an't left wing. Their
1028
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:43.400
liberals are generally motivated more by status right, And this
1029
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:45.800
is something that a right winger would say. So if
1030
00:48:45.800 --> 00:48:47.239
you're right winging, you believe in a bunch of things,
1031
00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:49.360
and you're really smart. You don't think I'm going to
1032
00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:51.519
go do a PhD. You think I'm going to make
1033
00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:53.039
a ton of money in the city. Because you have
1034
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.440
different incentives, different world views, different things that matter to you,
1035
00:48:55.519 --> 00:48:57.800
and that's fine, by the way, different ideas of the
1036
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:00.480
good life. So this is only that right wing is talented.
1037
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:02.960
Hyper talented right wingers have been kept at the academy.
1038
00:49:03.239 --> 00:49:06.000
I just think it's true because by virtue of their
1039
00:49:06.039 --> 00:49:08.519
political beliefs, in their worldview, those people aren't attracted to.
1040
00:49:10.119 --> 00:49:10.719
Higher education.
1041
00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:13.079
I mean, I think it's both. I think it's both.
1042
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:15.239
I think left wing people are more likely to go
1043
00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:17.840
into the academy. But if you get a department which
1044
00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:21.239
is already that number people who you know, if it's
1045
00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:23.920
ninety percent of people who will agree with each other politically.
1046
00:49:23.639 --> 00:49:25.280
Then that is going to affect their hiring processes.
1047
00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:27.239
And we have seen it in various universities where there
1048
00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:32.599
has been a lecturer or whoever who's had a position
1049
00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:34.519
which is which I might not agree with right but
1050
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.119
which is offensive to some people on campus, and then
1051
00:49:37.320 --> 00:49:39.719
they're subject to protests and they leave. So it's like
1052
00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:41.960
Kathleen Stock or At Kaufman or whatever. Now people might
1053
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.559
disagree with them, but they didn't really leave those universities
1054
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:47.280
because someone found an academic problem with their work. It's
1055
00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:49.360
because people found what they were saying distasteful, even though
1056
00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:52.679
what they were saying was in line with what lots
1057
00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:55.599
of people in the country believe, and that should all
1058
00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:57.119
be represented in the university.
1059
00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:00.400
Is a great We've got a great comment, Michael, and
1060
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:01.800
we'll move on from the story in a minute. We've
1061
00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:03.719
done two stories in fifty five minutes. Was I abducted
1062
00:50:03.760 --> 00:50:06.880
by Alien's? Where did the time go? At spin m
1063
00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:09.039
twenty four. I was doing a master at Cambridge when
1064
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:11.360
Jordan Peterson got a job there. He didn't get remotely
1065
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:14.280
close to this scrutiny. It's racism, It's true, Michael, didn't
1066
00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:16.559
he get he got his position, hold on, we're drawn.
1067
00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:17.880
Didn't get this. He didn't get the scriptin from the
1068
00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:19.400
Telegraph of the Times, but he got his position.
1069
00:50:19.639 --> 00:50:22.119
But he got his position withdrawn like literally, there was
1070
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:23.840
so much scrutiny he didn't take up the job.
1071
00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:26.880
I think both in the institution determined it probably wasn't
1072
00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:29.400
worth her while. But because it's loads of people. Michael.
1073
00:50:29.440 --> 00:50:32.119
The point is this, The rights say that qualitative research
1074
00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:36.239
methods aren't real. Sociology is not a real subject, Okay,
1075
00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:40.079
all to ethnography isn't a real research approach.
1076
00:50:40.119 --> 00:50:41.960
I think it is. It can be done very badly,
1077
00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:43.800
but it can also be done very well.
1078
00:50:45.440 --> 00:50:47.800
And then the same people championing Jordan Peterson as this
1079
00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:51.920
kind of emblem of Western civilization and research methods. It's crazy,
1080
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:54.480
but you're talking about you're describing the guy, but you're
1081
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:57.000
so you're just disagree. So you disagree with the people
1082
00:50:57.000 --> 00:51:00.079
who write at the Telegraph. Great, that's that's fine, and
1083
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:02.480
you disagree with Jordan Peterson. But Jordan Peterson is literally
1084
00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:05.000
the worst example to pick here, because he was invited
1085
00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:07.119
to a position at Cambridge University and then because of
1086
00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:10.199
all the outrage, mainly because of people finding what he
1087
00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:14.239
said offensive, his position was withdrawn. It wasn't really because
1088
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:16.480
anyone said he plagiarized anything or done academic fraud. It's
1089
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:18.719
because they said they disagree with his positions. Now I
1090
00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:21.280
also disagree with his positions, but if anything, that's an
1091
00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:26.159
example of right wing people struggling to get prestigious jobs
1092
00:51:26.199 --> 00:51:30.519
at universities like I think university should be a space
1093
00:51:30.679 --> 00:51:32.159
of great pluralism.
1094
00:51:33.039 --> 00:51:33.800
I totally agree with that.
1095
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:37.199
And I think Jordan Peterson should have got the job
1096
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:38.840
at Cambridge University if they wanted him to have it.
1097
00:51:41.159 --> 00:51:42.039
I totally agree with that.
1098
00:51:42.159 --> 00:51:44.719
You know, you often get blue collar parents saying that, actually,
1099
00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:46.639
I don't want my kids to go by the way,
1100
00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:48.079
you kid should go to university. If they want to
1101
00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:49.679
go to university, there's a lot to do, lots to learn,
1102
00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:51.400
lots of great people. To me, it's a big, wide world.
1103
00:51:51.639 --> 00:51:53.119
They say I don't want them to go there because
1104
00:51:53.119 --> 00:51:55.119
everybody thinks the same. There's some truth to it. By
1105
00:51:55.119 --> 00:51:57.320
thee there's some truth either. And I say that as
1106
00:51:57.320 --> 00:51:59.639
somebody who came from small town borneouth came sons go
1107
00:51:59.719 --> 00:52:03.840
to open my horizons. But often within a certain department
1108
00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:06.079
or a certain discipline, they can be foreclosed as well.
1109
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:09.400
Very bad thing and odds at odds with the very
1110
00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:14.360
ambitions which drive a humanities education. It's about self cultivation,
1111
00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:17.519
learning more about both yourself and the world. Harriet Harmon
1112
00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:20.039
was one of the leading figures in labor during the
1113
00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:22.679
two thousands. She was also an MP for more than
1114
00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:25.360
forty years. She sat down from her South London seat
1115
00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:28.400
at the last general election, the first ever Minister for
1116
00:52:28.440 --> 00:52:29.760
Women under Tony Blair.
1117
00:52:29.559 --> 00:52:31.119
And responsible for welfare reform.
1118
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:35.079
After nineteen ninety seven, Harmon was even briefly the leader
1119
00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:38.320
of the opposition that came after Ed Milliband lost the
1120
00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:41.639
twenty fifteen general election, and she was of course replaced
1121
00:52:41.679 --> 00:52:44.039
by Jeremy Corbyn and he was elected to the job
1122
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:47.920
that autumn. Today, Harriet Harmon is a Labour peer and
1123
00:52:48.119 --> 00:52:52.280
party grandee, so naturally she has a podcast, it's called
1124
00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:56.719
Electoral Dysfunction, which she co hosts alongside Ruth Davidson and
1125
00:52:56.880 --> 00:53:00.440
the political editor at Sky News, Beth Rudby. Last week,
1126
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:02.679
Harmon had this to say on the podcast about the
1127
00:53:02.719 --> 00:53:04.880
future of the Labor Party leadership.
1128
00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:08.360
The only way we'll have a woman leader of the
1129
00:53:08.440 --> 00:53:13.559
Labor Party next time is if we start a conversation
1130
00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:20.159
now where we say that actually that it's that men
1131
00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:23.519
cannot stand for the leadership next time, because if men
1132
00:53:23.639 --> 00:53:26.239
stand for the leadership next time, we'll have another.
1133
00:53:26.079 --> 00:53:27.960
Are you going to have an all women's list, Well,
1134
00:53:28.039 --> 00:53:29.360
the next Labor leader, you can't do it.
1135
00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:33.360
I think what we need to do is for women's
1136
00:53:33.400 --> 00:53:38.159
ambition to be encouraged and male ambition to be the
1137
00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:42.840
next leader of the Labor Party to be discouraged.
1138
00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:46.559
Do you think the next leader after Andy Burnham, whoever
1139
00:53:46.599 --> 00:53:47.920
that maybe has to be a woman?
1140
00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:48.159
Then?
1141
00:53:49.480 --> 00:53:51.960
Oh, I absolutely think so. And I think I'm going
1142
00:53:52.039 --> 00:54:00.440
to be asking any really excellent young man MP, you know,
1143
00:54:00.760 --> 00:54:03.760
rising star in the Labor Party. I'll be wanting to
1144
00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:06.719
encourage and support them, but I'll be saying to them,
1145
00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:10.719
are you going to support a woman next time? Or
1146
00:54:10.719 --> 00:54:13.199
are you going to put yourself in front and put
1147
00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:14.320
a woman behind you?
1148
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:16.880
I've had enough of this stuff, Michael, Now, to be clear,
1149
00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:19.599
In twenty ten, Diane Abbott.
1150
00:54:19.400 --> 00:54:20.800
Stood for the leadership of the Labor Party.
1151
00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:24.320
She's a woman. Harriet Harmon didn't backer. In twenty twenty,
1152
00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:27.199
Rebecca long Bailey stood for the leadership of the Labor Party.
1153
00:54:27.400 --> 00:54:31.000
Guess what, Harriet Harmon did backer. So I think there's
1154
00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:33.079
a little bit more going on than just the gender
1155
00:54:33.559 --> 00:54:36.880
of the candidates. Now, whatever your views on that proposal,
1156
00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:39.719
what you might not know is that it's illegal. That's
1157
00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:42.320
because of the Equality Act passed and the final days
1158
00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:45.320
of the Gordon Brown government in twenty ten, it's the
1159
00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:49.039
UK's main anti discrimination law, effectively consolidating a patchwork of
1160
00:54:49.159 --> 00:54:53.480
earlier legislation like the Sex Discrimination Act and Race Relations
1161
00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:55.400
Act into a single statute.
1162
00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:57.840
In short, the law is designed to.
1163
00:54:57.880 --> 00:55:02.239
Protect people from discrimination, harassment and victimization based on nine
1164
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:09.639
protected characteristics, including age, disability, gender assignment, marriage or civil partnership, pregnancy, maternity, race,
1165
00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:15.440
religion or belief, sex, and sexual orientation. It applies across employment, education, housing,
1166
00:55:15.559 --> 00:55:18.039
and the provision of goods and services, and covers several
1167
00:55:18.119 --> 00:55:23.159
forms of discrimination. All of that sounds welcome, right, But
1168
00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:25.599
here's where it gets really interesting, at least in the
1169
00:55:25.639 --> 00:55:29.199
context of Harriet Harmon's comments, Because while the relevant CARVAO
1170
00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:32.360
in the Act Section one oh four allows registered political
1171
00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:37.360
parties to make arrangements including single sex shortlists for selecting candidates,
1172
00:55:37.719 --> 00:55:40.840
the scope for that is explicit. It only applies to
1173
00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:44.159
selection of candidates for elections to parliament, local government, the
1174
00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:45.440
Scottish Parliament.
1175
00:55:45.079 --> 00:55:46.159
And the Welshish Assembly.
1176
00:55:46.840 --> 00:55:49.840
The legislation that text confirms this is tied specifically to
1177
00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:53.639
a relevant election where the purpose is reducing inequality between
1178
00:55:53.719 --> 00:55:57.159
the number of parti's elected candidates who share a protected characteristic.
1179
00:55:57.239 --> 00:55:58.239
And those who don't.
1180
00:55:58.320 --> 00:56:02.639
So all women shorts for the Labor Party seems reasonable,
1181
00:56:03.519 --> 00:56:07.400
but a leadership election doesn't fit that definition. That's because
1182
00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:10.440
it's an internal party process for choosing who leads an
1183
00:56:10.519 --> 00:56:14.000
organization or a mechanism for selecting who stands for public office.
1184
00:56:14.760 --> 00:56:18.079
Leader and deputy leader elections aren't listed amongst the relevant
1185
00:56:18.159 --> 00:56:22.280
elections that the exemption covers, So the specific legal shield
1186
00:56:22.840 --> 00:56:26.679
that makes all women shortlist lawful doesn't automatically extend to
1187
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.880
who can run the Labor Party, and without Section one
1188
00:56:29.960 --> 00:56:33.360
zo four covering it, a leadership election barring men would
1189
00:56:33.519 --> 00:56:36.639
likely be judged to be discriminatory under the law.
1190
00:56:36.760 --> 00:56:37.639
It would be illegal.
1191
00:56:38.519 --> 00:56:42.159
After all, political parties are treated as membership associations under
1192
00:56:42.440 --> 00:56:45.400
the Act, and excluding members from a benefit or opportunity
1193
00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:50.920
on the basis of their sex would be discriminatory, certainly interesting.
1194
00:56:51.760 --> 00:56:53.760
More interesting still, is that the person who introduced the
1195
00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:59.639
twenty ten Equality Act was you guessed it, Harriet Harmon's
1196
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:06.840
proposing something which is illegal under the legislation she introduced. Michael,
1197
00:57:08.239 --> 00:57:10.840
Is it possible that Harriet Harmon doesn't actually know the
1198
00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:14.400
law that not only she introduced, but she often says
1199
00:57:14.519 --> 00:57:18.159
is the greatest achievement in her political career. I mean,
1200
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:20.880
she is she proposing it has to be all ment
1201
00:57:20.920 --> 00:57:22.639
or she Isn't she just saying she's going to discourage
1202
00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:26.159
men from standing, which is presumably a different you know,
1203
00:57:26.599 --> 00:57:29.199
if she's saying, she's saying, I'm going to try and
1204
00:57:29.239 --> 00:57:31.360
make it a bit taboo to stand as a man
1205
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:32.960
to be the next leader of the Labor Party because
1206
00:57:33.239 --> 00:57:36.440
I want the women to step forward. I don't think
1207
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:38.039
that would be illegal. It'd be illegal to sort of
1208
00:57:38.119 --> 00:57:40.639
have in the rule book, only it might be. I mean,
1209
00:57:40.639 --> 00:57:44.159
I don't know the law quite frankly, a good.
1210
00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:45.199
Couple of minutes telling you the law.
1211
00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:48.000
Women always short list for the Labor Party or the
1212
00:57:48.039 --> 00:57:48.840
Tory Party or whatever.
1213
00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:51.719
Legal for what I mean, it's for the leadership.
1214
00:57:51.800 --> 00:57:57.400
Illegal. But at the same time, don't they So isn't
1215
00:57:57.400 --> 00:57:59.280
it always the case that you can't discriminate unless it's
1216
00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:04.159
for a reasonable cause. So you can't discriminate unless there's
1217
00:58:04.280 --> 00:58:07.119
a good reason for doing it, which is the way
1218
00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:09.280
you can have like women only associations whatever. Right, So
1219
00:58:10.920 --> 00:58:12.880
there is a women's a quality party, I think you
1220
00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:14.840
have to be a woman to join it. So clearly
1221
00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:17.639
you can be a political party that excludes men and
1222
00:58:17.719 --> 00:58:19.320
their leader can presumably only be a woman.
1223
00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:19.599
I don't know.
1224
00:58:19.960 --> 00:58:23.000
I suspect that isn't actually lawful. Michael, No, I suspect
1225
00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:23.960
they strong discourage it.
1226
00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:27.679
Yeah, but I mean she's talking about strongly discouraging it anyways,
1227
00:58:27.679 --> 00:58:30.119
And she she's saying, I will talk to male members
1228
00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:31.840
of the Labor Party and say maybe this time, don't
1229
00:58:31.840 --> 00:58:33.360
put yourself forward. I mean, I don't think that's a
1230
00:58:33.400 --> 00:58:36.920
particularly I don't I don't think that's particularly strong politics.
1231
00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:42.199
I think it's a bit naff. But I'm not sure
1232
00:58:42.239 --> 00:58:42.719
it's illegal.
1233
00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:45.320
What do you think of the politics of it, Because.
1234
00:58:46.599 --> 00:58:49.159
To be clear, it is illegal to have an all
1235
00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:53.079
male or all feel more shortlist, exclusively shortlist.
1236
00:58:53.480 --> 00:58:56.639
Or any kind of protected characteristic under the law. It
1237
00:58:56.760 --> 00:58:57.159
is illegal.
1238
00:58:57.239 --> 00:59:00.599
And you're saying that, she's not saying that. I've had
1239
00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:02.159
many times by the way people say these things in
1240
00:59:02.199 --> 00:59:04.719
the Labor Party. The extent of the Equality Act is
1241
00:59:04.760 --> 00:59:07.559
quite extraordinary. If we are hiring somebody here at our
1242
00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:11.960
media and are on slack, I say we should just
1243
00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:14.760
hire a woman that breaches the Equality.
1244
00:59:14.360 --> 00:59:15.760
Act during the hiring process.
1245
00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:18.440
It's a very serious thing, and I find it really
1246
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:21.519
interesting Michael that employers around the country have to know
1247
00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:23.440
this stuff inside out, otherwise they're going to get a
1248
00:59:23.480 --> 00:59:24.800
rinst by the way as they should as they should
1249
00:59:24.800 --> 00:59:26.400
do you shouldn't be able to discriminate against people on
1250
00:59:26.440 --> 00:59:29.719
the base was a special characteristic. I agree with that,
1251
00:59:31.480 --> 00:59:34.199
But I sincerely think that people at Harriet Harmon don't
1252
00:59:34.239 --> 00:59:36.480
think that those rules should they apply to them or
1253
00:59:36.480 --> 00:59:37.960
be they don't necessarily know them inside out.
1254
00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:40.119
And see, I don't think they understand.
1255
00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:44.719
The extent to which they could tail the decisions made
1256
00:59:44.760 --> 00:59:46.880
by organizations every single day across the country.
1257
00:59:46.880 --> 00:59:48.559
I don't think they. I really don't think they understand it.
1258
00:59:48.599 --> 00:59:50.519
I think, you know, at one point she wanted more
1259
00:59:51.039 --> 00:59:54.119
women in Parliament and so good like I say, I
1260
00:59:54.239 --> 00:59:55.679
support a woman shortless.
1261
00:59:57.159 --> 00:59:58.480
And so we had this legislation.
1262
00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:01.199
And now because she wants a female leader of the
1263
01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:04.199
Labor Party, she's kind of saying the opposite thing. She's
1264
01:00:04.239 --> 01:00:06.800
at least going against the spirit of the laws she's advocated.
1265
01:00:06.800 --> 01:00:08.559
If not, you know the letter, I think it's probably both.
1266
01:00:08.599 --> 01:00:12.360
Actually I found it really strange and I think it
1267
01:00:12.400 --> 01:00:14.679
says again so much about sort of deiliberalism.
1268
01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:17.599
I know you're not not much as animating Michael today.
1269
01:00:17.639 --> 01:00:20.760
Maybe he's on, maybe he's on sort of beta blockers
1270
01:00:20.840 --> 01:00:23.880
like that looks Max, I think, Harry, he looks Max
1271
01:00:23.920 --> 01:00:24.400
sing Michael.
1272
01:00:25.079 --> 01:00:28.039
No, I'm quite like sweaty and need to get back
1273
01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:29.119
into the gym myself.
1274
01:00:29.360 --> 01:00:32.760
But so I'm trying to I'm thinking about this. Yeah,
1275
01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:35.159
I mean the politics is a bit now, but it
1276
01:00:35.199 --> 01:00:36.960
is also kind of crazy that labor parties do hasn't
1277
01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:37.679
had a female.
1278
01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:40.400
Leader because people I kept voting against it. Yeah, there's
1279
01:00:40.400 --> 01:00:42.079
something to you that. I was a Labor member in
1280
01:00:42.159 --> 01:00:43.960
twenty twenty. I voted for a Becca Long Bailey. Who
1281
01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:45.719
did you vote for? I voted for a Becca Long Bailey.
1282
01:00:45.880 --> 01:00:46.159
There you go.
1283
01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:47.559
So I have voted for a female leader of the
1284
01:00:47.639 --> 01:00:48.239
Labor There you go.
1285
01:00:48.559 --> 01:00:51.119
And somebody like Harriet harmond or said why, by the way,
1286
01:00:51.119 --> 01:00:53.000
it's legit to say, why are two men talking about this?
1287
01:00:53.119 --> 01:00:55.239
But I voted for a female leader of the Labor Party.
1288
01:00:55.320 --> 01:00:58.280
You didn't. I'm tired of this.
1289
01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:01.199
Basically, what she's saying is I want somebody I like
1290
01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:02.639
to be leader of the Labor Party.
1291
01:01:03.400 --> 01:01:05.639
I want a woman. Okay, can they be Rebecca Long Bailey? No,
1292
01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:08.960
can they be Zara Sultan? Absolutely not.
1293
01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:14.119
So what you have is this masquerade where people are
1294
01:01:14.159 --> 01:01:17.440
talking about quality and you know, liberation and politics, but.
1295
01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:18.880
It's actually about no. I want to get my way.
1296
01:01:19.199 --> 01:01:23.400
Look at the talent ball of women on the labor right. Okay,
1297
01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:26.159
they should have gone with Emily Thorn.
1298
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:29.079
Who would you say is as a viable leader of
1299
01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:31.119
the Labor Party from the labor right, who would you say?
1300
01:01:31.239 --> 01:01:33.519
Tell me again, maybe I'm being a misogynist. Who tell
1301
01:01:33.559 --> 01:01:34.840
me I can name a title of women in the
1302
01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:36.880
Labor Party who should be the leader or could be
1303
01:01:36.960 --> 01:01:37.280
the leader?
1304
01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:39.280
Emily Thorn bring. I mean I wouldn't put on the
1305
01:01:39.320 --> 01:01:40.039
Labor right to start with.
1306
01:01:40.280 --> 01:01:41.480
No, But I mean they should have gone with her
1307
01:01:41.519 --> 01:01:43.800
in twenty twenty saying politics as kids Tama about actually
1308
01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:47.679
with some charisma, but she didn't go anywhere, which was
1309
01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:49.679
a shame. Well, I mean I didn't back at the time.
1310
01:01:50.320 --> 01:01:51.960
In retrospect was a shame. It would have been better
1311
01:01:51.960 --> 01:01:53.360
if she got the job than kids. I can see
1312
01:01:53.360 --> 01:01:56.320
the tiktoks now G and T's with Emilia exactly, the
1313
01:01:56.440 --> 01:01:59.440
evening TikTok at six pm. But look, it's even strange
1314
01:01:59.480 --> 01:02:02.360
that they're saying this about Andy Burnham when the person
1315
01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:05.760
who's basically driving his whole agenda is Louise Haig, right,
1316
01:02:06.320 --> 01:02:09.079
and Analyst Midgley, and Analy's Minteley is his chief whip.
1317
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:12.199
So given the Chancellor is actually that powerful, John Heally
1318
01:02:12.280 --> 01:02:17.239
is basically doing what he's told, right, who's John?
1319
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:18.920
He is a factor to them.
1320
01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:21.440
He's doing what he's told by I don't know that yet,
1321
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:24.599
but it's a strong hypo. Heally is not a political
1322
01:02:24.639 --> 01:02:26.639
heavyweight to be chanced to each checker. He's being told
1323
01:02:26.679 --> 01:02:29.079
what to think of you by Jim O'Neill, and by
1324
01:02:29.119 --> 01:02:30.679
Andy Haldane and by Andy Burnham.
1325
01:02:30.719 --> 01:02:32.320
Okay, that's why I got the job.
1326
01:02:33.159 --> 01:02:35.280
So one could argue that two most powerful people in
1327
01:02:35.320 --> 01:02:40.199
government after Andy Burnham, Louise Haig and Analyst Midley, they're
1328
01:02:40.239 --> 01:02:43.719
the all power brokers. But that counts for nothing, right,
1329
01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:47.800
that counts for nothing. And Andy Burnham is a brochialist
1330
01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:52.159
because you know, Harriet Harmon didn't get her way and
1331
01:02:52.239 --> 01:02:54.599
we saw the exact same thing. There's this really peculiar
1332
01:02:54.920 --> 01:02:57.360
part of Labour Right politics that's attached to this stuff.
1333
01:02:58.159 --> 01:03:00.920
Andy Burnam mckame the PM and Labor Women's Network, and
1334
01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:05.239
Jess Phillips immediately starts saying, fifty percent of the cabin.
1335
01:03:05.079 --> 01:03:05.519
I have to women.
1336
01:03:05.840 --> 01:03:08.559
That's quite sensible. Actually, fine, fifty percent of the cabin
1337
01:03:08.559 --> 01:03:11.039
I have to women. I think fifty percent of the
1338
01:03:11.079 --> 01:03:12.599
great officers of state have to women. So it has
1339
01:03:12.639 --> 01:03:15.159
to be two women two. They think, well, what if
1340
01:03:15.159 --> 01:03:17.960
I want three women? Is that discriminating against men? Which
1341
01:03:17.960 --> 01:03:18.800
is quite plausible.
1342
01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:21.800
Of course, what are your thoughts on this, guys, Let's
1343
01:03:21.840 --> 01:03:23.880
get something in the comments, because often, you know, I
1344
01:03:23.960 --> 01:03:26.119
talk about this with female comrades all the time, women
1345
01:03:26.199 --> 01:03:26.760
comrades all.
1346
01:03:26.639 --> 01:03:29.519
The time, and they say harsher things than I do.
1347
01:03:30.480 --> 01:03:31.960
But maybe maybe I'm out of touch.
1348
01:03:32.239 --> 01:03:35.400
So in the Equality Act, right section one five eight
1349
01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:39.039
permits positive action generally where a group faces disadvantage or
1350
01:03:39.119 --> 01:03:42.719
disproportionately low participation, provided it's proportionate.
1351
01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:45.320
So if we're just Michael, we just went literally went
1352
01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:45.719
through all.
1353
01:03:45.639 --> 01:03:47.159
Of this, but if you could argue that it was
1354
01:03:47.440 --> 01:03:51.280
proportionate because there had been a political party of private association,
1355
01:03:51.599 --> 01:03:52.360
we've gone to all of this.
1356
01:03:52.440 --> 01:03:54.719
I literally just spoke for about three minutes explaining all
1357
01:03:54.760 --> 01:03:54.920
of this.
1358
01:03:57.079 --> 01:04:00.840
Well, we'll get fine, I'll take your I think the
1359
01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:02.440
Equality Act. I think it's a lot of it's crazy,
1360
01:04:02.480 --> 01:04:03.079
a lot of it's good.
1361
01:04:03.320 --> 01:04:05.360
And what's really ironic is that right wingers keep using
1362
01:04:05.360 --> 01:04:07.920
the Equality Act to get their way. So, for instance,
1363
01:04:07.960 --> 01:04:11.639
a teacher might be sacked for saying something which is
1364
01:04:11.679 --> 01:04:13.480
in keeping with his Christian faith. He might be a
1365
01:04:13.559 --> 01:04:16.239
real hardcore you know, zellop and I mean that in
1366
01:04:16.280 --> 01:04:19.360
the religious sense, and he'll get sacked and the exact
1367
01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:21.440
same people who I hate the farrages of the world,
1368
01:04:21.480 --> 01:04:23.199
I hate the Equality Act that defend this job, and
1369
01:04:23.599 --> 01:04:25.440
he'll get a big payout because of the Quality Act.
1370
01:04:25.559 --> 01:04:27.440
There's a little bit wrong with saying you're against something
1371
01:04:27.480 --> 01:04:28.119
but then using it.
1372
01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:29.000
No.
1373
01:04:29.079 --> 01:04:30.679
I think my point is I don't think it's peicularly
1374
01:04:30.679 --> 01:04:33.880
well formulated legislation, but I think it's I think it's better.
1375
01:04:33.760 --> 01:04:34.239
Than not having it.
1376
01:04:34.280 --> 01:04:36.239
Put it that way, I think some of the rulings
1377
01:04:36.239 --> 01:04:38.800
about equal work for equal payer a bit weird.
1378
01:04:39.599 --> 01:04:39.960
Agreed.
1379
01:04:40.519 --> 01:04:42.960
I think ultimately pay should be should be done pay
1380
01:04:43.159 --> 01:04:46.599
pay deals, and pay dispute should be done through sexual
1381
01:04:46.679 --> 01:04:48.239
bargaining and trade unions.
1382
01:04:48.280 --> 01:04:50.599
I think having judges decide this stuff is quite dangerous.
1383
01:04:50.599 --> 01:04:53.320
Having judges, so the weird one was next, wasn't it.
1384
01:04:53.400 --> 01:04:57.559
So they had that next, we're paying their warehouse staff
1385
01:04:57.760 --> 01:05:01.199
more than their front of house staff. And the warehouse
1386
01:05:01.239 --> 01:05:04.440
staff was slightly more male than the front of house staff,
1387
01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:07.119
which was slightly more female, and a judge decided that
1388
01:05:07.199 --> 01:05:11.000
these were equal jobs, and so therefore Next was doing
1389
01:05:11.079 --> 01:05:15.079
wage discrimination between the sexes. But Next literally said, we've
1390
01:05:15.119 --> 01:05:17.199
offered everyone front of house a job in the warehouse
1391
01:05:17.239 --> 01:05:19.719
and they don't want to take it because it's somewhat unpleasant.
1392
01:05:20.320 --> 01:05:22.119
And we have to pay more to the warehouse people
1393
01:05:22.119 --> 01:05:25.480
because the market rates for warehouse people warehouse workers is
1394
01:05:25.559 --> 01:05:28.639
more than the market race for shop people who work
1395
01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:31.119
in shops. And they still sort of sued them loads
1396
01:05:31.119 --> 01:05:32.480
of money. And it's one of the reasons why Birmingham
1397
01:05:32.519 --> 01:05:34.119
went bankrupt, one of the reasons.
1398
01:05:34.119 --> 01:05:36.239
We didn't actually go bankrupt. But that's a that's a
1399
01:05:36.320 --> 01:05:39.360
story for another day. We have one more comments to
1400
01:05:39.360 --> 01:05:40.719
read out. When I was a labor member and we
1401
01:05:40.800 --> 01:05:42.320
were voting for a new leader, I stood up. This
1402
01:05:42.360 --> 01:05:45.039
is Christopher Fox seven thirty five. I stood up and
1403
01:05:45.079 --> 01:05:47.440
said we needed a woman as a leader. A woman
1404
01:05:47.480 --> 01:05:48.599
of the CLP said to me.
1405
01:05:48.920 --> 01:05:51.039
Now is not the time for a woman. They voted
1406
01:05:51.079 --> 01:05:51.599
for Starmer.
1407
01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:55.679
I do remember one Guardian article with Starmer saying Kirs
1408
01:05:55.719 --> 01:05:57.159
Starmer is the feminist choice.
1409
01:05:57.159 --> 01:05:57.639
Who is you know?
1410
01:05:58.039 --> 01:05:59.880
If you want a woman to be the next prom
1411
01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:02.119
to vote for gear style or something crazy, only the
1412
01:06:02.199 --> 01:06:04.519
Guardian can say can say this stuff?
1413
01:06:05.639 --> 01:06:09.559
Michael, It's been a pleasure, Yeah, pleasure. We've been on
1414
01:06:09.679 --> 01:06:12.480
for seventeen minutes only the three stories. I'm pretty sure
1415
01:06:12.519 --> 01:06:14.639
the aliens came and took me away. I'll have to
1416
01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:17.480
rewatch this just to make sure. And thanks, of course
1417
01:06:17.519 --> 01:06:18.880
to all of you for tuning in.
1418
01:06:19.519 --> 01:06:21.639
Come back tomorrow for another live stream from six pm
1419
01:06:21.679 --> 01:06:23.280
for NAW you've been watching naviarl Media.
1420
01:06:23.639 --> 01:06:24.039
Good night