10 Things I Hate About You — Why You Are Already Enough

Miguel A. Velazquez: The film is really about buried secrets and the damage it can do to you psychologically holding on to those secrets. This path, before it gives us anything sometimes, it costs us a lot. What if the most important part of any performance happens in the silence before anyone's watching? What does it actually cost to step into a character? What do you sacrifice? It's not your job to feel it. You just portray it and the audience will feel it for you the way you are right now. You are enough. Before the camera rolls, before the director calls action, and before a single frame of the performance you're watching ever exists, something happens to an actor. Most people never think about it. They watch a performance and they feel something, hopefully, something real, undeniable, something human, and they assume it just happened. That the actor showed up, said the words, and the feeling was there. What if the most important part of any performance happens in the silence before anyone's watching? What does it actually cost to step into a character? What do you sacrifice? What do you carry? And what is the thing that makes someone choose this life before the world has given them a single reason to believe it'll work? That's where we're going today. And I have the perfect person to take us there. Welcome to the Silver Frame, where stories expose the human mind. I'm your host, Miguel Velasquez. And each episode we explore the psychology behind the films and stories we love. Not to analyze them, but to understand ourselves through them. My guest today is Ben Wilson. He's an actor based in Brisbane, Australia, and his latest project, The Stranger at the Door, is a psychological horror film set in 1950s Outback, Australia, currently making its ways through the festival circuit. Ben and I also share something I want to name right at the start. We both found our way into the same acting class with the same director from opposite sides of the world. And that shared experience is part of the reason why I wanted him in this episode and in this conversation today. Ben, welcome to the silver frame. Hi Miguel, thanks for having me. It is my pleasure, man. Thanks for making this happen. And w I want to start right at the beginning of everything. Not at your first audition, not your first job, not the moment before any of that. ⁓ what was the moment you knew this was the thing for you? Like not that you wanted to try it, but that you actually couldn't not do it. Yeah. ⁓ the first memory of films I ever started watching were films like Jurassic Park, Jaws, Terminator Two. I was probably a bit young for all those sort of films, like I was probably six years old or something, but I was absolutely hooked on how they made films, how they made Dinosaurs come onto the screen and sharks explode out of the water. That just melted my mind as a five year old. And I knew at some point that being in film in some capacity what that end of story that was going to happen. I first started wanting to be the guy that made the animals or make the props and the costumes. That was the coolest thing to me. Then it really shifted to exploring more about acting when I saw Lord of the Rings, I was ten. And I don't know, that just hit really different on a psychological level of what else filmmaking can be about and all the other components that go into the film. The score, the acting, the locations, not just practical effects. That's where it just fostered everything for me to be into films. I can second the Jurassic Park reference for sure. My house was a huge Jurassic Park fan base. ⁓ we grew up ⁓ watching all the Jurassic Parks. I mean Spielberg in general was highly influential for me as a kid, you know, E. T., Jaws of course, ⁓ Jurassic Park. ⁓ I remember vividly just how it made me feel, ⁓ those movies. So I can totally ⁓ relating, and that's super interesting to me because I think there's a real difference between people who like want to act and people who need to act. ⁓ which one do you think you were? And or if you still are either or? I think when I was a kid, it was I wanted to act. And then as I sort of moved into my teenage years, it became a need to act because that was my way of expressing myself. You know, I wasn't in a big friendship. ⁓ group at school or anything like that. My parents worked away. I was an only child. I didn't really have many social interactions. So that was my calling card to express who I was and just interact with the world. And that was the window that I saw that opportunity through. Absolutely. I can ⁓ relate to that as well. I think as actors have a lot of ⁓ childhood ⁓ commonalities, things that we could can all connect the dots with, but ⁓ I was a very shy kid and when I gave a shot at acting, ⁓ people were shocked because I barely talked. And when I, you know, did try that, ⁓ it just changed my world. It just turned everything up and everything was just so much more vivid. And there's actually research out of the University of Southern California. Suggesting that people drawn to performance often score higher on what psychologists call affective empathy, not just understanding what another person feels, what we all know as empathy, but actually feeling it yourself. It's not that actors are more emotional than other people. It's that they absorb emotion from the world around them at a different rate, which explains the craft ⁓ tending to feel less like a career decision and more like something you can't avoid, right? More like a calling. And it sounds like you may have felt that growing up. ⁓ did you feel growing up that this was like, Okay, that's what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life? Yeah, definitely. I remember saying to my friends and family, I I wanna be an actor and hearing the whole spiel from everyone's like, ⁓ you're too shy, or I don't think you'd really be good at that, but backing myself up when people said that was like, Well, obviously this isn't what I wanna do. Like if you wanna if you're gonna back yourself up when Everyone else is saying you can't do it. You know, like what more evidence do you need to go and pursue something? For sure. I think there's a sort of misconception about what a performer or an actor has to be good at it. You don't always have to be the most bold, the loudest, or the most obvious performer to be good at it. On the contrary, I think a lot of great actors and artists in general tend to be the folks that are underestimated time and time again. So we showed them. That's right. Yeah. And here's what I actually want to get into a little bit more. ⁓ because ⁓ feeling it is one thing, right? But what you actually do with it before the camera ever rolls, that's another thing entirely, right? We know that as actors. So let's talk about what actually happens before the camera rolls. Because I think most people have a version of this in their heads of what it looks like to prepare as an actor, you know, reading a script a few times, maybe running some lines, which is definitely part of it. But walk me through your process. What does your preparation actually look like? Is there, you know, anything in particular, sort of a common thing that you do or that's turned into your regular go-to process? Yeah, so I have a few like non-negotiables that I have with myself. The first time I read the script, I read it from the audience perspective. Research has shown once you've read something once. You can't go and unread that again. Once you've read it, that's the way you're gonna see it the first time, the second time, the third time. So I try and read it from the audience's perspective. And that really starts that creative process for me with finding things that I can personalize within the script and I just try and enjoy that first time I read it, instead of diving in as an actor and getting all analytical on the script and being a detective, just enjoy the thing the first time, something might pop up. So once I've read it the first time, hopefully enjoyed it, I try and find the humanity in the character I'm trying to play. We've all got different things going on in life and one thing that I really have started steering towards is one single focus of what is my character's expectations within the scene or multiple scenes. I don't I've sort of steered away from the the whole objectives side of ⁓ script analysis. There's a book I'm reading and I've got it here, if we can see that on the screen. The Dangerous by Les Chantery. I think we spoke about this last time. There's an amazing book that links psychological and psychology-backed research for why humans do what they do. So I try and look at the expectations. You know, I go about my day expecting to get all my jobs and chores done and get home from work on time. That's not really an objective of mine. So I try and look at a script that way as well. And that helps me just really find the the human side of my character. And that's basically the extent of what I do until I start working with the other actors in rehearsals or things like that. Obviously I know my lines, I know what's happening, who the other people are in the script, all those fundamental things. But I on a deeper level, I just try and find my character's expectations of the other people in the scene. And that's it at the moment. And that seems to be working for me. I love that. I love what you said about ⁓ reading something for the first time and really ⁓ being conscious of that before you before you dig in because I think as actors we really have an innate feeling of wanting to mine the script, as I say, really quickly and get to work and dive in as soon as possible. But like you said, ⁓ there's this spontaneity that you can't duplicate when you first get that piece of material. So I'll definitely be mindful of that and stealing that from you. And that book is ⁓ fascinating. ⁓ I haven't read it but I I read the ⁓ reviews and after you had mentioned that to me and ⁓ you know being that this show is about filmmaking, storytelling and psychology, it's definitely something I'll be ⁓ adding to the show and reading upon that. ⁓ so thanks for the rec. ⁓ that's a really good one. Is there a moment in the process where something shifts for you where it starts to feel like, ⁓ you know what? I feel like I got it. I feel like I know this person. I feel like I I know the care where it stops being less of a character and more of a person, basically. Yes, definitely. The latest project that I auditioned for and booked, I read the script like I normally do the first time. And after that I went, I know exactly who this guy is. And it was almost identical to a character a friend of mine played in a film that was released. And in the shortened version This guy's a complete jerk, not a nice person, is an authority figure. And I was like, this guy's just an a complete a-hole. So I'm just gonna be an a-hole and say the lines. And we did one take and ended up booking it. So sometimes I look at the script and I just go, I know what this person is. They're this or they're that. Sometimes I read it and I'm like. I don't know who this is. I need to go and get a second opinion and I call a friend or send them the script and maybe they're gonna help me see something that I haven't seen or quite understood or putting the pieces together. Sometimes it's like upending a a jigsaw puzzle and all the pieces are turned upside down and you're like, ⁓ where do I start? Sometimes you turn it up and you're like, ⁓ yeah, I can sort of see what we're working with here and it just goes together. So much easier. But yeah, some scripts And some characters you look at, you're like, Yeah, I know what this guy's about. He's this or that. Yeah. I love that when every now and then our job feels like I wouldn't say easy, but it feels like, ⁓ I get this, like, yes, I got it. You know, that's such a gratifying feeling, especially after doing all the work. So I love to hear ⁓ other people's experiences with that because some like you said, some scripts you gotta really look at it from every angle and then sometimes you're really stuck and say, you know what? Let me see what other people think because my brain sort of t is not grasping it in the way I thought it would, or you're just not it's not as clear as it is with other with other characters. ⁓ but psychologists actually have something that they call this. It's called character embodiment, the point at which an actor's cognitive and emotional system begins responding to the character's circumstances as if they were their own. Researcher Talia Goldstein at George Mason University found that trained actors show measurably different neurological patterns when inhabitating a character versus simply reading dialogue. Something genuinely shifts in the brain. It's not performance in the way we usually mean it. It's closer to a temporary reorganization of how the mind processes identity. Does that resonate with you, Ben, that something? real is actually happening not metaphorically but neurologically when you know the character. ⁓ when you're like, ⁓ wow, I really know this guy. ⁓ do you feel like you can so almost embody the character when that when that happens? Yeah. When sometimes when I'm reading a script and like it's an audition or some of your friends passed on, you're reading it and you're like sometimes you feel like you can just look over there And you can just see that person standing there being who they are, doing what they're doing, and you're like, Yeah, I know that person. Or if they're similar to somebody you know, that person that you know just appears there and you're like, Yeah, you're my friend Andrew, or or Peter, or whatever, you know, like you just go, Yep. Yep, I know this person. Or sometimes you read it and you're like, I think that's me. ⁓ absolutely. ⁓ that's yeah. I mean, th that those are the moments when I geek out and I'm like, I want to just like scream at the top of my lungs and say, I know this person. ⁓ wow, it's crazy. Like I know their neurosis. I know their, you know, their i i idiosyncrasies or isms, all the things that make a person who they are, right? And then you like, wow, I know exactly where to pull from. ⁓ but you know With your current project, a world as specific as the the stranger at the door, it's in 1950s out back Australia, and it's a psychological horror. How do you prepare for something that may be so removed from your own experience? ⁓ you know, obviously there's similarities there, but you're not in 1950s out back Australia, ⁓ and you're not living in a horror, hopefully. ⁓ so how is that process preparing for that? Mm. It was difficult. I haven't done any horror prior to that experience. So I talked to a friend of mine who'd had done quite a few horror films and he gave me quite a lot of guidance on that. Especially the presence on screen as well. Stillness is a huge, huge part of horror films. Especially if your horror film is not the B or C grade ⁓ kind of acting with certain actors getting around at the moment. ⁓ so I leant into that quite a lot. And the film is really about buried secrets and the damage it can do to you psychologically holding on to those secrets. So it's a lot of it was a lot of work for a short film, but The pr the end product is amazing. When we saw it in the cinema, we were all just sitting there like jaws on the floor, like, ⁓ my God, that was amazing. It's shot in black and white. It's fully authentic. It was just amazing. Incredible. that's a great example of the power of cinema. So congratulations to you and the and the crew and cast. That's amazing. ⁓ I want to ask you something I think about a lot myself personally. this path before it gives us anything sometimes, right? ⁓ it costs us a lot, our time, our money, the patience of people around us, support for of our family, sometimes our own certainty, right? What has it cost you, would you say? What have you had to give up or push through to keep going in this craft? ⁓ a lot. It's one day you wonder, Am I gonna have a day job tomorrow when I go back? 'Cause it's been the the twentieth time you've called in sick and they don't know you're on set. ⁓ and you've got no sick leaders. ⁓ the s the time commitments of being on set where people who aren't in the industry don't understand those time commitments. It's a a ten hour filming day plus two, three hour travel time plus delays in filming, plus everything else, the strain it can have on your relationships, friends, family, partners can be a lot. So you can definitely put a lot of pain on yourself and a lot of strain. But I think the biggest one for me is previously time off work, trying to move things around, trying to get everyone to be as flexible as possible, just for me to turn up to a budget indie three minute short that never released or something is like, hmm, was that worth it? Yeah. That's right. The amount of projects I've done that have never seen the light of day, I it it is embarrassing how many times I have done that. But I what I like to tell myself is, you know what? I gotta I had the chance to do what I love and and I got to practice. So totally ⁓ you know, not as glamorous as a lot of people think. There's actually a concept which I found fascinating that kind of relates to this. ⁓ in psychology called identity-based motivation. It's the idea that when something becomes part of how we see ourselves, not just something that we do, we'll endorse significantly more difficulty to pursue it. And researcher Daphna Oiserman at the University of Southern California found that identity based goals are more resistant to setbacks than outcome based ones. For actors especially, right? The identity tends to solidify before any external validation arrives, which means the persistence doesn't come from proof that it's working. A lot of times we don't see it until very further down the road. It comes from the inside. You know, does that land for you, Ben? Sometimes you feel it before any external validation. I know it could be sometimes reading the script and before you share with the world, ⁓ you kind of validate yourself and the performance and Sometimes like we just mentioned, no one will see it. What's your take on that? That's very interesting. It's it's also resonates with me from a why you're in this business to begin with. So by the time I said I want to be an actor to my first day on set was twelve years. So sticking to it for that long and that first job was a featured extra or an extra on something, that's not much of an achievement. But on paper that isn't, but twelve years time that is. And when you make a project and it's released, you know, like a year later or something, you've got to have a you've got to hang on to that validation that, ⁓ my work was good enough. The project's coming out. It just takes quite a long time for all the pieces to fall into place. And just backing yourself is the key to to the whole thing. If you're not gonna back yourself, why is anyone else? That's right. A hundred percent. there are ⁓ times when people doesn't make sense to the outside world, right? ⁓ it took me ten years to book my first network television ⁓ spot and it wasn't a very big part. ⁓ but ⁓ what a lot of people don't see is right all the sacrifices and preparation and ⁓ what it takes to get that little bit of thing done, right? And ⁓ for the even the opportunity to even land in your in in your space is ⁓ is almost a miracle. So totally. You have to validate your work and your goals first. But I'd love to talk about the Stranger at the door a little bit more. So as we mentioned earlier, it's a psychological horror film and it's set in nineteen fifties out back Australia. And as described in ⁓ on the website, a widower, a stranger, a secret that won't stay buried. And it's currently on the Australian festival circuit. ⁓ so if you could tell us a little bit about that, I'd love to hear more. ⁓ what's this story and what pulled you towards it? Yeah, the story's about a a widower who ends up murdering a a police officer because in nineteen fifties, same sex marriages or relationships were not a hot topic. For a better word. so the widower's partner got murdered by a police officer. So he ended up murdering the police officer and never told anyone. Buried them both together out in the middle of nowhere in out back Australia. And many years later, a stranger rocks up on his door asking for sh for shelter from a big storm. And that stranger turns out to be a psychological entity that attaches itself to people's pain. regret and remorse and tries to gain access to that and latch onto them and essentially destroy them from the inside out. ⁓ this particular entity in the film can shape shift and shape shifts into the widower's partner, which is the role that I play. And we c we came up with a really good idea in the script when we were reading it one day and I said, what if the The stranger, this entity, attacked the widower in the form of his ⁓ dead husband. And everyone was like, ⁓ my god, like how cool would that come across on screen? Like the stakes have just been elevated tenfold for the entity to gain access to this guy by attacking him in his former lover's presence, really. ⁓ and it was a huge hit. Everyone loved it, but it's in the end, the widower ends up defeating the entity and moves on with his life and accepts who he is and what he's done and basically the storm disappears that he's the ⁓ elephant in the room or so to speak the the symbol of regret and remorse. So the long story short is if you hang on to pain. It just keeps pushing you down, keeps pushing you down. But if you accept who you are, accept what you've done, people can move on with their lives and for the better. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. ⁓ I love how much of a sort of a community and team effort it became to ⁓ sort of add and develop to to the story. That's amazing. Yeah, it was cool. It was ⁓ A lot of work from everyone. Yeah, absolutely. It takes a village for sure. you know, we talked about this earlier and we mentioned ⁓ regarding psychological horrors, they live in sort of what's not shown. We talked about ⁓ stillness, right? ⁓ the audience feels what a character's hiding more than what they actually say in this type of genre. ⁓ how do you hold something heavy beneath the surface on camera and trust that the audience is gonna feel it? ⁓ And I asked that question because we mentioned ⁓ you know, being still. ⁓ how do you trust that having something that you're holding will translate for the audience and sort of still be able to, you know, do your work as an actor? 'Cause I always feel like I hope that this resonates on camera and that it I can you see it 'cause it's a tricky balance of like being too big but then you're also don't want to give it all away. ⁓ I love that that concept of stillness. ⁓ so what is what what is it like to embody that in a character and be able to trust that yeah good question ⁓ it takes a lot of practice to know internally when you're going too far or you're not far enough you've got to sit in that sort of sweet zone of what you're doing. You've got to understand where your extremities are like you're arms and legs and everything what those micro movements that you do with your face, understand what's happening. A lot of people move their face and they don't understand that or recognize that, you know, their mouth's doing something weird or their eyebrows are freaking out or whatever. But I think if you understand on a baseline level that it's not your job to feel it, you just portray it and the audience will feel it for you. Sometimes just literally standing there. as if you're a statue and people are like, ⁓ my god, that's amazing. There's not yeah a whole lot going on behind that. The trickiest part is learning how to control those little micro movements and ticks. You know, if you if I go back ten years and look at some of my auditions, I sit there and I sway and I've got no idea I'm doing it. You know, that's not gonna work on a film. They can't just edit you out like doing that. ⁓ And approving that's the key is understanding your micro ticks, understanding what's going on with yourself, and it's not your job to feel it. The audience will do that for you. That power in stillness and also silence. A lot of times, you know, when you're holding silence in front of a camera, you you sort of feel, especially when you're preparing for the role, that you have to sort of fill the space with with words or or action ⁓ when sometimes certain parts of the character or the scene ⁓ doesn't call for that. ⁓ so trusting that silence and that stillness is is huge. Yeah, 100%. I want to shift gears on that ⁓ for a second. There are no wrong answers. I just want to know what are you watching right now? ⁓ film, TV, anything. What's what's got your attention? ⁓ I've actually finished watching last night episode five of Band of Brothers. Just started rewatching that again. It's old school. Great. It's so good. ⁓ Yeah. So good. I haven't seen it in a while, but ⁓ it's one of my favorites. And I only just learnt that Tom Hanks was involved in that after they did Saving Private Ryan. I was like Yes. This is like a prequel to Saving Private Ryan, which is an amazing movie. Right. Yeah, great. One of the one of Tom's best. I actually one of my f very first scenes and one of my first acting classes was a scene from ⁓ ⁓ Band of Brothers and ⁓ I can't remember which one it was, but I remember how challenged I was by that scene and how much I learned from it. And ⁓ I think it's a testament to how great that show is and you know, obviously the team behind it, Tom and everybody else involved in the acting was amazing. ⁓ here's another here's the the hypothetical. If you could ⁓ If you could step into any role in any existing film or series, something already made, what would you want to live in and who would you want to play? I think Jeremy Renner's character on The Mayor of Kingstown. I think that show is amazing. Yeah. The dynamics of all the different characters in that has you hooked from the first episode all the way to the last in the same capacity. Like you just don't drop off from that show. You are in it. Yeah, it's one of those that sucks you in and you could spend all weekend watching it. It's ⁓ it's amazing. ⁓ is there sp something specific about that world that pulls you or you know, obviously there's some great actors and performances there. Yeah, I think the navigating that Jeremy Renner's character has to do between the work side of things, the family side of things, the friendship side of things, keeping the peace, like that's there are many pieces to that. to that world going on and his ability to manage all of that or his character's ability to manage all of that. That just yeah, it's a really good performance from his part on. But also the work that he would have had to have done on his character for that to come across so well for the audience, that just blows my mind. So intriguing. Sure. seeing him juggle all the moving plates, right, at the same time is Pretty fascinating. ⁓ is there anybody you're watching right now where you think, ⁓ that's the kind of actor I want to be? not not necessarily, you know, anybody famous, but just someone whose work is doing something that has ⁓ has stopped you in your tracks. Yeah, I regularly watch Michael Fussbender's work across all of his films and TV shows. The guy doesn't do anything over the top theatrically and He just has this like presence on screen where you're like, What's going on with this guy? What's he about to do? Half the time it's another thing and you're like, ⁓ that's amazing. But just the way he carries himself through all of his films, he's that quiet authority figure that he just commands pres he just commands your attention every time he's on screen, whether he's doing a little or a lot. I agreed. There's something about An actor when they're very calm in front of the camera d to me that is so intriguing. I was watching something in a theater recently and ⁓ I think it was Meryl Streep, ⁓ or that big actor. I think it was her. And just seeing her calmness in on the screen, there was something about it I'm like, wow, that's how you know you're great when you're just in the moment where you're just, you know, there. You're not creating some big moments. You know, obviously there's certain movies and scenes that r require that, but when they're very still and and and almost calm and and mouse like you're like, wow, that's kind of crazy. That's how you know you've been doing this for a while. ⁓ but I would love to ⁓ touch on ⁓ something that I mentioned at the top of the show. We were in the same acting class with ⁓ incredible Mr. Gil Younger. For anyone who doesn't know Gil, he directed Ten Things I Hate About You, which among other things, gave a young Australian actor Named Heath Ledger, his first real shot. How did you find Gil's class and what brought you there? ⁓ a friend of mine actually DM'd me on Instagram with a famous clip getting around of Heath's audition for Ten Things I Hate About You. ⁓ I was like, ⁓ that's kind of cool. So I watched it and then ended up on Gil's Instagram page, the breakthrough company. And then a couple of weeks later I think they had a a giveaway for a free spot. And I was like, ⁓ I might as well enter. I never win anything. Yeah. So why not? And then randomly got a an announcement on Facebook line the winner is Ben Wilson. I thought, ⁓ okay. Holy shit. So much for not winning anything. Yeah. Yeah. So I thought, ⁓ better turn up, give it a go and Yeah. One of the best classes I've been in. Period. I I don't think I'd find a better one, honestly. A hundred percent. and I heard he was ending his workshops 'cause he's moving on to other projects, which was sad for me 'cause like you said, like you just said, I don't think I'll find a better class. He was great. ⁓ I guess what was the what was the biggest thing he gave you and what did working with him change about how you approach the craft? Yeah. ⁓ Gil just makes it so easy to feel comfortable in the space and so quickly. Like the first session I was like totally comfortable. Everyone's on Zoom. Everyone's giving feedback and accepting the feedback that he's given, even if was a bit harsh. And then the notes he gave when we all tried again the same scene or a new scene, it was like night and day. But the biggest thing I took away from it was just be yourself. Just literally read the script, how you would be that person, not trying to be anyone else. And I was like, ⁓ yeah. So I know, right? It's it's it's yeah. It's seems simplistic, but it really is the hardest thing sometimes for us to do. ⁓ there's something about his approach, the way he strips it back to something essential, less technique, more truth. you know, that sort of reminds you, ⁓ yeah, like if I just do that, that's usually enough. And like you said, it makes you feel really comfortable and He always reminds you to bring yourself to whatever you're playing. That you don't have to play a character. You just have to, you know, embody the the text and ⁓ the other other stuff follows. Did it change how you watch other actors as well? I know for me like I feel like I when I watch other performers, now I'm looking at I guess an essence, something that shows me like, ⁓ they're operating from like just truth and themselves in this moment right now. Yeah, for sure. For example, when I watch a few of Michael Fassbender's shows or films and then watch interviews with him where he's doing press talks or something like that, he's the same as what he is in the show. It's just a different job that he's doing. Like he's playing a detective in a show, but on the interview he's just himself. But the demeanour, his mannerisms, his essence, like it's all the same. And I was like Yeah. Like surely it can't just be that easy. Like obviously he's famous or whatever, so he's booking roles. But then I realized if you don't have a twin, like biologically, you don't have a twin, then there's no one else like you in the world. There might be people similar, but there's no one who's gonna bring the exact DNA profile that you bring to a script ever. And I was like, Maybe maybe that is my boldest move in my auditions. A lot of people say, do a bold move and you see people swinging off the chandelier into the scene and you're like, Okay, fair enough. But that's a bold move, but that might not fit with the script. So then I'm like, Well, what if I just be me in every single thing I do? Just a different job, saying different words. Seems to be working. I there is something about that being you and not just in our work but in life that It seems such a simple concept, but it is probably one of the most ongoing efforts in our lives that we have to continue to attempt to do and we don't always succeed at. But the pursuit of that is such a big part of life. And the same goes with with acting. ⁓ there's actually some research that has actually documented this. A study from the University of Melbourne found that trained actors show significantly higher accuracy in reading micro expressions, the tiny involuntary facial movements that reveal genuine emotion. The training doesn't just teach you to perform, it teaches you to see. And once you can see, you can't unsee it. It's like ⁓ we were just mentioning the way we watch performances ⁓ differently now. When we see, like you just said, it can't be that easy. But that's sort of what that study touches on. ⁓ it's really fascinating to be able to sort of see someone do the things that I guess you would do in private or when you feel you're most confident and do that in front of the camera. And I want to end with two things, Ben. First, where are you headed from here? What's the next ⁓ thing you're moving towards? Next thing l on the calendar is T V pilot filming in Sydney in July. So I'm pretty excited for that. Amazing. Can't give off too many. Congrats on that. Thank you. ⁓ lots of cool people on it. Yeah. It's gonna be a sweet time. You've heard of her seal people. You heard it first. Yeah. So big congrats on ⁓ on a pilot. That's huge. That's major, man. C big congrats. ⁓ I look forward to hearing more about that and I'm sure it'll be an amazing experience regardless. So last question here. If someone watching this at the very beginning of this same journey. They haven't had the break big break yet. They haven't had proof that it's gonna work and you know, they're just doing this because they love it. What do you say to that person? Have fun every time you do it. That's I think the biggest thing is if you're not having fun, you know, maybe try and find something else that is fun for you. But we don't always have fun times during working days or the quiet times. But also knowing that The way you are right now. You are enough. You don't have to be this extravagant Brad Pitt, Mel Streep, anyone else. You are enough in your physical form right now to be a supporting, a leading on whatever. You just have to find out what works for you to translate it from putting on a tape to getting it across to a casting director. I think that's the biggest key. You've got to have fun. Understand you are enough. You don't need to be someone else. Sure. ⁓ you know, an acting coach that I work with often tells me that all the time. You're enough, Miguel. You're enough. When she sees that I'm trying to push, you go, you're enough. So yeah. Well said, mate. Ben, thank you for being here and for, you know, making this work and for your honesty about all of this and sharing all of your ⁓ amazing projects coming up. This is exactly the kind of conversations that we like to have here in the silver frame. ⁓ so I appreciate it. No worries. Thanks for inviting me back. It's great to cut you of course. And share this project and this podcast to the world and yeah. Stay tuned everybody. And everyone watching, thank you. The Stranger Door is on the festival circuit right now. Links to Ben's work and daylight pictures are in the description below. Go follow his journey and thank you so much for watching the Silver Frame. If this episode made you think differently about what you see on screen or about the work that happens long before you ever see it, leave a comment and tell me all about it. I read every single one. Until next time, keep watching, keep feeling, and remember, stories expose the human mind.