Redefining Normal: Healing PTSD with John and Melissa King

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The Psychedelic Reports. Psychedelic drugs have played their part in
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America's long strange trip toward an understanding of mind.
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All during drugs The Psychedelic News, leading physicians, scientists, and
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experts share their wisdom about psychedelic medicines and healing. Fifty
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years ago, psychedelic drugs were at the center of America's counterculture.
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The brightest minds in psychedelic medicine the Psychedelic Report.
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We use the kedemy assisted psychotherapy model that happens to
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have psychedelic effects that were not predicted when the drug
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was first developed.
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From researchers to investors.
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I think the biggest mistake we pat as the culture
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is the war of drugs.
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So physicians to shamans and non private pioneers psychedelic drugs.
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Recent research suggests some of them could have legitimate uses.
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The Psychedelic Needs bring you diverse perspectives from the front
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lines of this exciting movement, The Psychedelic Report.
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The Psychedelic Report was brought to you by Apoll Neuroscience
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and produced by Future Medicine Media. Welcome to the Psychedelic Report,
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your single source of truth for the Psychedelic News. I'm
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your host, doctor Dave Raven I'm a neuroscientist and psychiatrist
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trained in ketemine assisted psychotherapy as well as MBMA assisted therapy.
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Today we're diving into one of the most pressing and
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complex issues at the frontier of mental health. Can psychedelics
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like soul cybon truly help veterans heal from PTSD and trauma?
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And if so, why are so many still unable to
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access his care. This episode takes inspiration from a recent
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CPR News article highlighting the growing disconnect between scientific promise
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and institutional policy. Early research, as well as powerful personal accounts,
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suggest that psl cybin assisted therapy can offer meaningful relief
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to veterans suffering from PTSD, especially those who haven't found
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success with conventional treatments. Veterans describe their experiences with psilocybon
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as life changing, allowing them to confront trauma, reconnect with
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loved ones, and rediscover a sense of purpose. These are
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not isolated cases. Small clinical trials are beginning to validate
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these outcomes, showing significant reductions in PTSD symptoms after just
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a few guided sessions, similar in some ways to the
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effects of MDMA assisted therapy, and yet the Department of
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Veterans' Affairs, bound by federal regulations and cautious bureaucracy, continues
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to prohibit psilosibon's use. This leaves many veterans to seek
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out costly treatments through private clinics or to travel abroad,
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placing a life saving therapy out of reach for the
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very people it could help most, and increasing their risk
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when they work with untrained and uncertified providers. Ultimately, this
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conversation is about action. The science is advancing. The voices
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of veterans and those suffering from trauma are clear. The
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question is will we listen and will we respond? And
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veterans are not the only group struggling. There's also been
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a substantial increase in news about human trafficking lately. This
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recently surprised me and it led me to investigate this
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situation and how we can do more for victims of
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human trafficking, something we talk quite a bit about preventing,
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but rarely about its aftermath. To elaborate on the subject,
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I'm joined by John King. John King is an Australian
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aboriginal trauma recovery expert, speaker and author internationally recognized as
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a top thought leader in the fight against human trafficking,
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a survivor of prolonged childhood sexual abuse who was involved
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in the Epstein and Niguard trafficking investigations, King has transformed
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personal tragedy into a global mission. Drawing from his lived
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experience and grounded in neuroscience and real world resilience, he
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founded the Phoenix Collective, a trauma recovery platform that offers
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practical evidence and formed tools for survivors, especially men, navigating
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PTSD and complex trauma. As a brief disclaimer to our listeners,
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this episode delves in depth into John's experiences with trauma
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that through his work he is comfortable discussing with us.
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Please be advised that this episode may not be suitable
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for children. Today we are joined by John and his
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wife Melissa. Thank you both so much for joining us.
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Thank you for having us.
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Mike, it's my pleasure. You know, you have accomplished so
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much in your lives around educating people around PTSD, recovery
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from PTSD, and really destigmatizing trauma for the community, which
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is something that is so important right now with so
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many people struggling with traumatic events and highly stressful, overwhelming
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events and not really knowing how to how to deal
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with it. Could you tell us a little bit about
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what your journey, what led you up to writing writing
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your book Deal with It, living Well with PTSD, and
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starting all of these online educational resources around PTSD and recovery, Sure.
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You Love To and chipping we you Want. So I was,
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I was sexually abused. Some would call it traffic. We
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defined it as traffic now by my mother and a friends.
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And I had full recall of that when I was
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forty five, which a lot of that happens a lot.
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In men who have been sexually abused. They lock it
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down and shut it away.
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And it was a Wednesday afternoon at two o'clock, and
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I remember it vividly, and it's like all these little
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frames came together, these little incidences that I'd filed away
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as a normal childhood because it was the only childhood
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I knew, and they came together and I realized, you know,
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this isn't normal, this is having raised three kids, this
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is not how this thing goes normal.
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So so that was, you know a little bit of
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a that's my John Apocalypse, you know, it was John Ageddon.
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It tried to turned up and there it.
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Was, you know, the onset of complex post traumatic stress
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and went from flying around the world one hundred and
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fifty thousand miles a year doing corporate training and talking
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public speaking to being a complete blocking and an.
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Enclosion of a life. And that was really the event
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that kicked it off.
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And so from there this this this time since then,
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which was when two thousand and eight to now, so
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it's been twelve years, has been this fourteenth thank you.
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I was going to say this steady climb up, but
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it really was. It was more like a nose dive
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into the depths of some abyss and then decided to
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stop digging, throw the shovel out, and this tenacious clawn
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out the other side of it, which is really how
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recovery gos right.
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It's like a bowl of strength. It's not a steady
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cove out in any way. Check with form.
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That is true.
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So really that's how it started for us.
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And John approached PTSD and all of his symptoms that
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he was having the way he approachased any problem and
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has always. He started to a mass information and put
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it all together and see take the twenty percent of
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symptoms that he was having, which you know he had depression,
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he had anxiety, could go out in public, and he
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tried to find the overlap between those things and approach
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it so he could take the twenty percent of symptoms
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where he could get the eighty percent of the results.
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So he could start to sort of redefine what a
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normal life would look like for him, and he broke
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it down piece by piece, line up online. That's typically
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how he had approached problems in the past, and so
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he applied his sort of executive coaching background to himself,
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became kind of.
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His own colas quiet. I think the biggest I stayed
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is the redefining of normal, understanding that normal is subjective,
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it's not objective, it's it's it's a very personal thing.
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And then realizing that John one point oh and John
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two point oh were two totally different men, and John
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one point oh had a set of desires, skills, and
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abilities that John two point oho had had no desire.
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One point oh was very gold driven, very focused, very
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anally were attending in a lot of ways. John two
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point zero wanted to sit under a tree, smoke cigars
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and write poetry. And sometimes these people had a challenge coexisting.
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It's like, dude, assure me, you just want to sit
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around the true all right, quadrede, dude, what's that? It's okay.
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It's like for years a battle and John two point
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oh would look back at John one point oh and
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see what an achiever he was and feel really small
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because he just didn't want to do those things anymore.
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And then cognitively, John two point zero literally couldn't do.
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Some things that John one point oh could.
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So coming to a stage of loving and accepting John
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two point zero and being very comfortable, and probably the
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biggest tipping point in all of that was coming to
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peace with my past was either going to define me
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or refine me. I was either going to be bitter
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because of the things that were done to me, or
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I was going to be able to turn those around.
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And I had to come to peace with my past.
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Not necessarily the activities, but the acceptance of these things.
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Have made me who I am, and I like who
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I am.
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And I think that was That's been one of the
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biggest turns in my journey, and I think it's also
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some of the biggest we've seen some of our clients,
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the people we try to help, is where they can
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come to terms with this physical manifestation of a neurological
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state and understanding that they just are a different person.
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That's a great way to describe it. And you know,
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I think it was Carl Rogers, who was one of
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the mean psychotherapists who discovered motivational or developed motivational interviewing,
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who said something to the effect of it is only
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after we accept ourselves for who we are that we
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can actually be capable of making all the change that
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we want to make in our lives into the world.
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It's one of the things I came up with in
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the process was a very information revelation application transformation. Is
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that I would read a lot of things and I
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would amass this information about how to get out of
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my hole. But it wasn't until I understood that I
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saw myself in those things and then took those things
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and apply it that I would start to see.
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My life change.
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And the amassing of information, but taking personal responsibility of
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this is my information, not just general information, is.
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A very quick part. That's the quickest part in the
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whole journey.
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Because now I could say that I did that for
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say two years out of the last fourteen, and then
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the application has taken ten years out of the last
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fourteen and twelve fifth twelve years on. Now I'm finally
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starting to feel like I'm transformed.
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That recovery has stuck, if that makes sense.
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Yeah, absolutely. I mean you didn't get here over night,
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So so you're you're it's going to take. It takes time,
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right to get to where you want to go and
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to undergo that transformation and to put in that effort
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and to see the results until you retrain. You know,
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you're reautomating right the things that are meaningful to you
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now based on that new information.
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You said something interesting there is you said you talked
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about re automating it into who you want to be
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and an understanding of where you wanted to go.
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And I think that's very hard because you don't know
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what that looks like. You knew what one point O
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looked like. And like when you start off as a kid,
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you're growing up in all.
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These constructs which are firm where you're supposed to go
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and who you're supposed to be, even the school, educational path, marriage, borgage, whatever.
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But now here you are in the middle of your
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life and you're a toddler. It's like oh, am, I
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supposed to like this, Am I.
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Supposed to do this.
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I've never really had a desire to do this, but
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now this is all I want to do.
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And this thing that I couldn't do, I can't do anymore.
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And is that okay? And getting that sense of peace
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around those things, as you said, I think that's that's major, and.
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Finding that new identity of how you see yourself, because
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you know, before John had seen himself as a businessman.
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He was an executive coach, he was a consultant, and
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suddenly now he didn't want to do when he does
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things anymore, and he was writing poetry and very successfully
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writing poetry and now a series of novels. And he
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was probably six or seven years into writing before he
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ever introduced himself to anyone as an author. And I
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was like, oh, yeah, you're an author a poet. That
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was totally how I saw him. But it took some
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time for him to see himself that way.
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And that's that's interesting because Melan never knew me before
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mail Zannie even known two point zero. She never knew
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one point And it was interesting. I remember that conversation.
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It was like, what are your money like?
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I made him a business card and I put you know, author,
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poet speaker on it. He was like, who is this God?
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It's a really interesting point that you bring up, right,
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because it's almost like, and I think you know, we
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see this all the time in the clients that we
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work with. Is it's almost like there's an identity crisis
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or a crisis of identity where you have We've been
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taught to see ourselves in a certain way for our
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entire lives, and we spend a lot of time practicing
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seeing ourselves in that way, and then all of a
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sudden a series of events or realizations happened or realized
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that per perhaps we are not that person, that those
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things are a description of parts of ourselves that we prioritized.
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At the same time, there are all these other parts
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of ourselves that maybe are more important to us now
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that we have not prioritized. You're listening to the Psychedelic Report,
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But I'm really curious when you talk about these two
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different parts or versions of yourself that you identify it
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at that time, how did you bring these together into
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your oneself? How did these two one point zero and
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two point zero kind of reconcile with each other?
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They didn't.
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They didn't reconcile, and that was the interesting thing. Trying
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to fuls them to reconcile was the problem. Tell me
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to accepting that they would now was where growth started
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to happen.
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And it actually started with a knap. I didn't sleep.
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I trying myself not to sleep because I would get
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not maze.
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In the ratfull and once I nightmanes and recall and
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roll into daymares and I'd end up in days of
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reliving my past.
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So I set my watch or an alarm clock and
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I would wake every ninety minutes soon night to keep
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me out, and I would get up at three am
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in the morning and go to the gym and try
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and just survive on a very shallow slip. So I
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wasn't getting anything, you know, and your gadget to your
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point has.
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Been incredible and finally reversing some of that stuff on
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the Apollo tapet. So I was having a nap in
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my office afternoon, and I would get up every morning
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and I would work out because working out was part
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of my process. I kept tired, I kept my brain
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in the endorphins that was good for me.
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I was doing bodybuilding at the time, because my therapist
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said that, she said that you don't want to be
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in your head, your hand's an angly places you need
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to get So I took out bodybuilding because every meal,
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every mouthful, every time, it's the most intense thing I've
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ever done. So I was totally preoccupied with that, totally
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preoccupied with leading well and totally getting up in the.
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Morning and doing all that, and I'd get exhausted and
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I'd sneak in and have a nap in my office,
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and I'd feel bad and guilty about it because.
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I was lazy, and my script round like this. I
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work out at three in the morning because I have
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to get up because I've been sexually abused, because I
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have nightmares. I work up. I go to the gym
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at five in the morning because I've got to get
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my body fill of endorphins because I've got PTSD and
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I'm mentally ill. I have a Latin nap in the
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afternoon because I had to get up early because I'm
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mentally ill, and I've got to be doing this and
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this and this and this, and one day I stopped
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and I thought, hang on, hang on, this is my
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new normal. I get up and exercise because I enjoyed it.
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I eat right because I like the impact of good
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food on my body.
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I sleep in the afternoon at three far half an
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hour because I get up at three am and I.
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Start my day. Then this is my normal.
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And I had to accept that because John one point
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I didn't.
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I gess. I was prepared to let John one point
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oh go. I was never going to inhabit with joy
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John two point zero.
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And it really started with this map. It's like, it's
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okay to have a nap because I've been up at
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three am, and no one else in my office has
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been up at three And I do that because I
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want to, not because I'm ill, but because I'm different now.
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And now it's because you're lazy. No more self indulgent.
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No, Like the reason I'd get up is because I
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loved my family. The reason I got up is because
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it was good for me. And I didn't change the
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inner script. The script was running very positively. It was
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accepting that was that was a positive script and a
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positive voice over the negative voice. And I was like, hey,
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there was two those two sets of scripts were running
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and I was like, no, no, that's that's not true.
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This is true of this is my new truth.
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I love the way that you use the word script
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in this context because you know, it goes back and
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reminds me of a book, a very famous book by
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Claude Steiner called Scripts People Live, which is about this
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exact thing, and that we create these narratives around around
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the way we understand ourselves, in the way that we
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know ourselves to be, in the way that we make
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meaning about things in the world, and why we do
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certain things and why we don't do other things. And
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you very clearly got to a point where you were
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able to through prioritizing recovery, through allowing yourself to nap
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in that moment, it's almost like you're giving yourself the
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opportunity to revise that script, or to even recognize that
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you can revise that script.
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You know, and it all happened automatically. I evenoid in more.
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Lat I will say, I will say in the context
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of this discussion that bodybuilding, the sort of discipline that
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comes with that sport, was so good for John because,
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like you said, the application of the principles that he
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was using requires tremendous discipline, and so he was sort
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of flexing that discipline muscle in his entire life right then.
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It was jim, it was food, it was having the nap,
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it was reading the books, finding all the principles to
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apply to go through the recovery. And he had this
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sort of militant self awareness when it came to those
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internal scripts. He would say, hang on, why am I
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thinking this right now? And he literally examined every thought.
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You know, for a long time, you lift heavy and
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focused and be negative about it.
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You have to in a very positive mind to be
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pushing your body to the extremes of what it's done,
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so you have to. It really sharpens that edge.
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And it flowed over, as Mel said, it flowed over
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into everything else.
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So it wasn't that I started to huh, here is
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how I'm going to recover. It was like all I
359
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:21.720
know is I'm going to get out of here because
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this is a dangerous space. So I'm going to fill
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this every fifteen minutes with.
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Something, which is really odd because John two point zeric
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bro he just seriously wanted to smoke.
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Stars and white poltry and to work out a fifteen
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minute schedule was like I did, come on, man.
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There was a lot of discipline in application.
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Yeah, and everything was decisional and self awareness.
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And I think for anyone facing trauma, Okay, so I
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defined it for myself. There's there's an incident and there's
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an episode. An incident is where I'm having a challenge
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with a situation and it only affects me owners when
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I'm having a challenge of a situation and it floods
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over and hurts those people that I love, and I
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have to become very self aware about when I.
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Was having an incident so it wouldn't manifest into an episode,
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and becoming self aware about being disciplined on time and
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where I'm going and what I have to do and
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what I have to lift, and I'm going to do
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this on Monday. Tuesday went and.
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Then I brought that over into the other side of things,
381
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and I have to be very self aware about what
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I was thinking. I've come to believe that in overcoming trauma,
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self awareness is a fundamental key self awareness and resilience.
384
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The fact that you every day have to be aware
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of why you're feeling, what you're feeling when you're feeling it,
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and you have to be prepared to be encouraged and
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disappointed simultaneously.
388
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The part that you mentioned that was really interesting is
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this simultaneous experience of self awareness and recognizing that in
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that self awareness there is disappointment and there is accomplishment.
391
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And to use this maybe a slightly different word than
392
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you use, but there is a dichotomy of experiences. It's
393
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not just disappointment and judgment, and it's not just accomplishment
394
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and joy and victory or gratitude. It's really all of it. Right,
395
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Everything that comes with that self awareness is there, and
396
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then it's up to you to choose what are the
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next steps you're going to take to navigate what you
398
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now are aware of.
399
00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:33.480
Yeah, Melissa taught me that. It was one of the
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00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.759
many things you taught me very early on. So with
401
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:38.519
and you know, you know this.
402
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:45.240
Dog, when you've got PDMC, like normal people, they have
403
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:47.720
this series of buckets. They've got to work bucket, a
404
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.079
home bucket, a relationship bucket, a dog bucket, of lawn bucket.
405
00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:53.799
So you can go to work and have a good day,
406
00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:56.759
come home and the dog poop in your shoes, your
407
00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.839
lawn's not mowing, and your kids still love you. And
408
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:02.359
they're all different buckets and you do it.
409
00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:05.759
But when you've got PSD one bucket starts to slash,
410
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.559
and it slashes into everything else, and there's no more
411
00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:11.880
compartmentalization or emotional compartmentalization.
412
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So I would have a.
413
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Moment in one twenty four hour period that would last
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00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:20.920
fifteen minutes, and it would ruin that day.
415
00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:25.039
Then I would go into introspection the next day, depression
416
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:29.000
the third day, accusation the fourth day, and try to
417
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:31.559
get out of it on day five and six. And
418
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:37.559
what what Melissa taught me? What's that I'd only had
419
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fifteen minutes, a bad fifteen.
420
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:43.519
Minutes in a twenty four hour period, and that very
421
00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:51.160
simple lesser freed me, and just freed me to go okay,
422
00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:55.279
to stream good days together. In some days, I would
423
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have a good fifteen minutes out of a twenty four
424
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hour period, and then I I would just focus on
425
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:04.599
stringing my fifteen minutes together, and if I could get
426
00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:07.160
two or three fifteen minutes, dude, that was an hour.
427
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:12.079
I'm talking, you know, like we're cracking out the champagne
428
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:13.480
and running lats, you know what I mean.
429
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:16.480
And then all of a sudden, those twenty four hours
430
00:25:16.519 --> 00:25:19.799
stung together, and then the week's gone together, and now
431
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:21.759
we're in a phase where it's the months that are
432
00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:25.160
strung together. It's now three and four months before there's
433
00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:27.279
an incident or an episode.
434
00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:33.400
Yeah, do you think that your judgment of yourself played
435
00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:38.640
a role in extending those fifteen minute incidents into these
436
00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:40.160
five day long episodes?
437
00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:46.720
Absolutely? There is no harsher critic of John than John himself.
438
00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:50.599
And I think we spent a lot of time, you know,
439
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:52.759
sort of talking him through. You know, would you speak
440
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:55.960
to your son that way, or would you speak to
441
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:58.400
a friend of yours that way? Then why are you
442
00:25:58.480 --> 00:25:59.720
letting that voice.
443
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:00.319
Go on in your head?
444
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:03.279
You know? We got to stop that, We got to
445
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:08.640
like retool this and rewire a little bit. And I
446
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:12.839
would need to remind him that, remember we had a
447
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:17.079
difficult fifteen minutes that we apologized. You know, he would
448
00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:19.319
say I'm sorry, and I would say I forgive you,
449
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:23.799
and then I could reminded, remember, you already apologize for that,
450
00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:28.440
and we already everything's fine now, And so the next
451
00:26:28.519 --> 00:26:30.440
day when he would need to bring it up again,
452
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:33.200
I'd be like, no, remember we apologize for that. So
453
00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:37.480
there was a lot of that early on, trying to
454
00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:41.279
sort of silence that inner critic that really sort of
455
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:42.960
judge e voice.
456
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:45.359
Because I think that's part of the self awareness stuff.
457
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.519
Dave is, I am very harsh like that. My first
458
00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:53.200
marriage felt a bit because my first wife just couldn't cope.
459
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:56.039
With the impact of you know, the racle of events,
460
00:26:56.559 --> 00:26:59.799
and that impacted and I was very sick trying to
461
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:02.480
three children, and I was.
462
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:06.119
Very unstable in a lot of ways, and I could
463
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:07.880
I couldn't be around allowed noises.
464
00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:10.440
I found it very difficult to be around people. So
465
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:11.359
when I look back.
466
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:14.799
And I catalog who I was compared to who I'd
467
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:18.519
want to be for those people, and then realizing that
468
00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:21.440
who I was being to those people is based upon
469
00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:24.400
what people did to me, not choose to be, and
470
00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:27.480
that gets into a bitterness. And really it can't put
471
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:30.839
your hands around that. And I don't like the term victim.
472
00:27:31.480 --> 00:27:34.559
I've used it once in my life. But these things
473
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:37.680
that were done to me manifested and that impacted this
474
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:38.440
group of people.
475
00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:42.640
Now, if you just look at that, there is all
476
00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:47.279
the validation in the world to judge yourself harshly and
477
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:50.079
to say that's not and it's not acceptable. It is
478
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:54.279
not acceptable. But over here is this other voice that
479
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:58.240
says you did the best you could with the information
480
00:27:58.359 --> 00:27:59.640
you had at the time.
481
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:03.680
And even though it doesn't reconcile this series of behavior,
482
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:06.039
it brings a sense of peace.
483
00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:11.079
It's like I'm taking full responsibility.
484
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:13.720
For everything, yet I can't take responsibility for what I
485
00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:14.920
couldn't control.
486
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:19.920
And you cannot control a manifestation of trauma to an extent.
487
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:22.480
There comes a point where you can and you have
488
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:27.839
to take responsibility, but in the initial stages, I'm just
489
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:30.720
looking at my case when I wasn't aware of what
490
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:34.680
was going on. It's very difficult to be living in
491
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:38.720
an environment which is not compassionate or geared up to
492
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:42.920
be able to cope to the onset of a manifestation
493
00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:46.839
of an awareness of a traumatic event, and the supportive
494
00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:54.000
relationship and an affirmative environment is absolutely vital in people
495
00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:56.680
recovering from prolonged trauma.
496
00:28:57.559 --> 00:29:01.440
I couldn't agree more. And it's very well said that
497
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:03.839
you know, all you can do is your best with
498
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.279
what you knew at the time. Right most of us
499
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:08.720
aren't taught that from a young age. We don't necessarily
500
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:12.519
recognize it or realize it, and therefore we judge ourselves
501
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:15.079
because we constantly think we should have been or could
502
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:18.480
have been doing better when you know, hindsight is always
503
00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:21.079
twenty twenty, right, as the saying goes, we can only
504
00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:23.480
do our best in the moment. And I think you know,
505
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:27.640
a big part of recovering and healing from traumatic events
506
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:31.480
is recognizing that that fact, which is the way we
507
00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:36.000
respond as a result of these situations, is not our fault,
508
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:39.960
because there's obviously some responsibility that we must take. We
509
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:43.200
have to be accountable to ourselves, and especially once we
510
00:29:43.240 --> 00:29:46.519
start to develop and cultivate self awareness at the same time,
511
00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:50.920
it's that self awareness without judgment that allows us to
512
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:53.799
remind ourselves that it's not our fault because we were
513
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:55.920
only doing the best we could at the time with
514
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:58.319
what we knew. And I think one of the things
515
00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:01.279
that has always stood out to me about this process
516
00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:04.920
of healing and recovery that you so eloquently described, and
517
00:30:05.720 --> 00:30:10.640
this sort of recognition of this doing your best at
518
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:13.960
the time and in a lot of ways, forgiving yourself
519
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:18.200
for what you might have felt you did not do
520
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:21.200
as well as you would have liked in retrospect, I
521
00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:23.680
think comes down to this idea of something you mentioned
522
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:27.000
just a minute ago, which is support and how critical
523
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:30.200
it is to have support around you, even now and
524
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.160
even later in life during the healing and recovery process.
525
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:33.839
You know.
526
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:35.720
I think this goes back to what we think about, like,
527
00:30:35.799 --> 00:30:41.279
what is trauma? Right? Is trauma just one or multiple negative, intense,
528
00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:46.359
meaningful events over time? It could be, But many people
529
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:52.000
who are well prepared for negative or uncomfortable events and
530
00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:59.240
supported afterwards can actually experience incredibly difficult, negative or destructive
531
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.720
experiences and make it through on the other side recognizing
532
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:04.839
that they were doing the best they can and it's
533
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:07.519
not their fault because they had the adequate support afterwards
534
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:12.519
to help them understand that. And I'm wondering from your experience,
535
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:15.000
how much do you think the support in the immediate
536
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:20.319
phase afterwards is critical to the experiences you had becoming
537
00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:24.039
something that you grow from kind of right away and
538
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:28.200
you start out that healing process right away versus what
539
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:31.119
happens to I think most people, where they have a
540
00:31:31.160 --> 00:31:35.680
negative or challenging experience, or many challenging experiences, they don't
541
00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:38.599
have the support afterwards, which leads sort of people into
542
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:42.359
the victim complex, which is where none of us would
543
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:45.960
ever like to be. But when you don't have the support.
544
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:48.640
There's a natural part of our minds that kicks in
545
00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:51.200
that says, what did I do to deserve this right?
546
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:53.400
Was there something that happened that is wrong with me
547
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:57.839
that led me to have these things happen to me,
548
00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:01.519
which then of course can be perpetuated over time and
549
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:03.880
result in more things we don't want to happen happening
550
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:05.920
to us. You know, you said you don't like the
551
00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:09.160
word victim, which I think is really important because a
552
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:11.440
big part of healing is getting especially from PTSD, is
553
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:16.119
getting out of the victim mindset. You're listening to the
554
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:21.079
Psychedelic Report, how critical and how much do you think
555
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:25.039
PTSD from your experience is related to that lack of
556
00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:28.599
support and navigating that that victim mindset.
557
00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:30.839
I think that just a couple of thoughts. We'll just
558
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:34.039
have a ramble, dude. So someone I might so a
559
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:37.079
very high military guys, you know, Team one guys, and
560
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:39.799
there's a range of people around that some of them
561
00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:42.920
don't excipt effect that they signed up to join the military,
562
00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:44.559
and as part of that there was going to be
563
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:48.599
the series of possible traumatic commands and it's like, well,
564
00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:51.000
this was what the government did to me, Well, hang
565
00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:53.200
on you. You signed up for this scene.
566
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:55.599
So there has to be a sense of you were
567
00:32:55.640 --> 00:33:00.599
getting into a possibly hostile situation and that's okay, but
568
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:02.559
it didn't go quite the way how I thought it was.
569
00:33:02.920 --> 00:33:05.640
No one does. It's a natural war, So there has
570
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:07.960
to be that sense of, Okay, I'll put myself in
571
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:11.319
this position, and there's going to be consequences accordingly for that.
572
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:14.480
How I when I talk to these guys, I often
573
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:15.680
contrast my own thing.
574
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:20.119
I never signed up for this, a fool, So these
575
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:24.680
series of events. I wasn't complicit in making these happen.
576
00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:28.119
So there's two there's two parallel, separate tracks that are
577
00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:32.000
running here, but the outcome is exactly the same regardless
578
00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:34.839
of what was either done to you. And why I
579
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.519
use that contrast is because they'll often say, well, this
580
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:39.160
was done to me and I didn't see it. So
581
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:41.559
I say, okay, well let's map it out. You signed
582
00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:43.799
up for this. I did not sign up for this.
583
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:47.039
But they get us to the same end. I'm traveling
584
00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:49.279
down this track by what was done for me from
585
00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:52.960
an external force. You're traveling down this track because you
586
00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:55.759
signed up to go into this particular creed, and here
587
00:33:55.799 --> 00:34:00.440
we are having a traumatic event. Only by accepting that
588
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:04.519
this is a peace and the space in time, accepting
589
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:09.039
that and then putting parameters about that, can we then
590
00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:12.960
move on from that and not allowing ourselves to be
591
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:14.280
defined by that.
592
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:16.960
And I think that's part of the challenge in the
593
00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:21.199
narrative in both some military situations.
594
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.800
But also in the sexual abuse there is a narrative
595
00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:28.519
where people define themselves by their pasts instead of refine
596
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:33.039
themselves by their past. I am a victim of sexual abuse.
597
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:37.679
I am a war fighter. I experienced battle trauma, and.
598
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:41.000
That becomes the whole identity that's associated with that. You
599
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:44.440
see it in the Facebook groups, the comments, the posts,
600
00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:48.760
the t shirts. That wears the attitudes, the attitudes instead
601
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:50.679
of it. And then I meet my other guys, And
602
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:54.239
I've got some tremendous friends who've spent thirty odd years
603
00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:57.159
in blood and sand, seeing all that as all, and
604
00:34:57.199 --> 00:34:58.519
it's a part of who they are now.
605
00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:01.800
Are the things they struggle with, Yes, but they'll also sit.
606
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:04.599
Around and tell the funny stories because it was part
607
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:05.960
of a life experience.
608
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.440
Is it traumatic trauma that sits around those things?
609
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:09.719
Yet?
610
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:15.360
But those trauma events were just that events, and so
611
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:17.679
when I look at my life, I see it the
612
00:35:17.719 --> 00:35:21.199
same way. This was an event, it is not who
613
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:24.000
I am, and I have to draw a box around
614
00:35:24.039 --> 00:35:27.880
that and remove myself from it. And if I don't
615
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:30.320
do that, then I'm always going to be a victim
616
00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:33.880
of that event, as opposed to someone who passed through that.
617
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:36.320
You know, walk through the value of the shadow of death.
618
00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:39.639
You know, don't buy bloody timeshed keep walking through the
619
00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:41.360
value of the shadow of death because.
620
00:35:41.079 --> 00:35:44.039
On the other side there's hope and possibility. But if
621
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.400
you camp in the value of the shadow of death, dude,
622
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:48.760
life sucks and it's always going to be suck until
623
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:52.920
you die. And that's that's the commonality I've seen on
624
00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:55.280
both of these parallel sort of tracks.
625
00:35:56.039 --> 00:35:58.800
Yeah, that's very well said, and I love that analogy.
626
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:03.000
And you know, thinking about the victim mindset that you
627
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:06.440
describe and why it's so important to step away from it,
628
00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:11.760
it's it really sounds like what you're describing is that
629
00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:17.719
by accepting the victim definition mindset, and therefore that you
630
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:21.679
know the definition of victim to yourself, we know that
631
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:24.800
certain things have happened to you that are unpleasant or undesirable.
632
00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:27.480
These things have happened, doesn't take them away. But by
633
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:32.360
defining yourself as a victim, you actually are disempowering yourself
634
00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:34.679
to heal. Is that fair?
635
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:36.079
Yeah, it is.
636
00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:41.119
And if I define myself via victim, then every event
637
00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:44.719
going forward, my identity is tied up in a victim
638
00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:48.039
mentality and attitude. So it doesn't matter if a new
639
00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:51.159
thing happens, I'm going to instantly come back and say, well,
640
00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:51.480
this is.
641
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:54.199
Just traumatize me. It well, this is what happens to victims,
642
00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:57.280
and this always happens to me. Instead of being a
643
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.840
building book that I can learn on from moved forward.
644
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:04.039
It was a part of my life, a phase in
645
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:06.440
my life. It's not my entire life.
646
00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:11.719
And it's almost like separating you and who you are
647
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:17.000
from which is constantly changing as you grow and live
648
00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:20.719
your life, from what happened to you, and what happened
649
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:24.000
to you or what happened in your life is an experience,
650
00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:28.360
as one of millions of experiences that you remember throughout
651
00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:33.519
your entire life, and yet it is not who you are.
652
00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:38.639
It is only an experience that you've learned from and
653
00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:41.960
it has shaped in some ways the way that we
654
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:44.440
see ourselves. That shapes our perception, but it is not
655
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.119
our identity. It's actually separate from that.
656
00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:51.480
Yeah, And just a reflection on what you said separating
657
00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:55.480
myself from that experience, I've actually done it the other way.
658
00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:59.400
I've actually fully embraced that I was trafficked as a
659
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:03.400
young boy, fully embrace how that they maybe do man movies,
660
00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:06.920
fully embraced how I was raped. I didn't because I
661
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:10.320
found when I tried to separate myself from it, it
662
00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:15.599
was impossible. I couldn't pull myself apart from it because
663
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:18.280
this event was touching every.
664
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:23.599
Aspect of my life, my view of myself, my self esteem,
665
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:28.199
my sexuality, every part of me. It was like the
666
00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:32.280
tanny cause of of a tumor. If I saw it
667
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:36.599
as that, But if I embraced it and accepted it
668
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:40.239
and said this made me who I am today, then
669
00:38:40.280 --> 00:38:43.840
the focus became am I comfortable with who I am today?
670
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:47.519
And if I'm not, then all I got is who
671
00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:49.760
I am today? So what do I have to change
672
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:52.119
in my mindset to get comfortable with me?
673
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:55.400
And if I can do that, then this is part
674
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:58.400
of who I am. It's part of everything, which then
675
00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:02.920
what I found is that actually and becomes a thing
676
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:06.039
I can use to enrich the life of another person.
677
00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:09.760
An experience that you have, like you said, they like
678
00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:12.920
a part of the sum total of the experiences that
679
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:15.719
we have in our life is who we are, and
680
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:20.760
it's only one small part of them. So then I think,
681
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:25.280
with the affirmative environment, I think so important just coming
682
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:28.320
back to that for a second, is to have people
683
00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:31.840
around you who can see the best in you and
684
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:35.400
speak to the best part of you, and who won't
685
00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:39.559
let you slip into that victim definition of myself. I'm
686
00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:43.199
going to define myself as a victim, and therefore the
687
00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:45.559
rest of my life, all the experiences are just going
688
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:47.960
to add up to victim because I'm just going to
689
00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:50.559
attract those things to myself and I'm going to see
690
00:39:50.559 --> 00:39:55.039
everything through that lens. Whereas if I have that person
691
00:39:55.119 --> 00:40:00.360
who will lovingly say, no, no, that's not who you are.
692
00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:03.079
The good parts of you, I see them, This is
693
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:05.360
who you are, and this is what we're building on,
694
00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:06.559
sort of going for.
695
00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:08.400
I mentioned it and deal with it.
696
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:13.440
Turning scars of shame into medals of honor because we
697
00:40:13.480 --> 00:40:16.599
always played our scars, whereas we wear our medals of
698
00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:19.440
honor and the reason you hide your scars is because
699
00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:20.480
you're embarrassed from them.
700
00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:21.440
It's a deformity.
701
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:25.280
I feel less of myself and that's a very deliberate thing.
702
00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:30.159
And dealing with healthcare professionals is a challenge if you've
703
00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:31.400
got post traumatic stress.
704
00:40:32.119 --> 00:40:32.679
I'm sorry.
705
00:40:32.840 --> 00:40:35.519
So I was eleven at the time and I was
706
00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:38.639
taken to a dentist and he was a statist.
707
00:40:38.679 --> 00:40:41.760
I didn't know this, so he removed my wisdom teeth.
708
00:40:41.559 --> 00:40:45.000
With the parapliers without any otherthetic and when I woke up,
709
00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:47.679
I had seen it all over my face, and which is,
710
00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:50.119
you know, not what you go to the dentist for.
711
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:53.519
And consequently I had a little bit of a hesitation
712
00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:56.840
about going to the dentist. And when I'm going through
713
00:40:56.880 --> 00:40:59.360
this process, and I would bury that hesitation.
714
00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:02.039
I would just suck it up and go to the dentist.
715
00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:04.840
And especially in early stages of recovery, when I had
716
00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:06.480
a recall of this stuff that had happened.
717
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:11.239
And then there became one time and I thought, no, no,
718
00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:15.079
I own what happened to me. But what I need
719
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:17.440
now is a little bit of help with how that
720
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:19.639
manifests and how that looks to everybody. Else.
721
00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:22.639
So I'm going to share this and if they don't
722
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:24.079
accept it, then I'll find a new.
723
00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:28.880
Bloody dentist because it's not my problem. My problem is.
724
00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:31.320
Recognizing the fact that I have a challenge going to
725
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:33.559
the dentist because I think that they're going to put
726
00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:36.159
me on my back, dope me out, and then masturbate
727
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:37.039
all over my face.
728
00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:41.159
That's my problem. So going into this dead and you know,
729
00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:43.559
a hi, doctor, how you going good?
730
00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:44.000
Mister king?
731
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:46.159
This is my wife who listen, nice to meet you.
732
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:47.960
I need her to be in the room with me.
733
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:50.840
Well that's not practice. Well, doc, let me explain something.
734
00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:53.079
When I was eleven, a guy pulled the teeth out
735
00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:54.320
and masturbated all my face.
736
00:41:54.519 --> 00:41:56.400
My immediate fear as I stand here before me is
737
00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:58.000
that you'll do that to me. And if you even
738
00:41:58.039 --> 00:41:59.440
try to do that to me, I will probably kill
739
00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:00.039
you when come out.
740
00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:01.679
Of my chair. So it'd be really nice if I
741
00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:03.880
had my wife here. Are we comfortable with this now?
742
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:08.559
And I was telling you this guy looks like everyone's
743
00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:09.440
grand and he.
744
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:11.920
Was I don't think he ever heard the word messing up,
745
00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:17.400
but it was okay, I'm going to turn this around.
746
00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:20.280
Okay, here is the need I have to operate in
747
00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:21.119
the world normally.
748
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:25.079
If i'm if I give you honestry, vulnerability and transparency
749
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:27.639
and I don't get that back, then these are not
750
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:30.840
the people that I need to work with. And I
751
00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:33.199
was in I had a critical situation two years ago
752
00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:36.440
when I was taken to a hospital and I did
753
00:42:36.440 --> 00:42:37.000
the same thing.
754
00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:40.000
They wheeled me into the and I said, I need
755
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:42.800
to tell you I had a challenge being touched. I
756
00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:46.039
had a challenge being naked around people. I need you
757
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:47.400
to understand these are my things.
758
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:47.639
Now.
759
00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:50.440
I'm not trying to be difficult, but I need to
760
00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:54.079
tell you this, and in a system that is.
761
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:59.400
Not geared to take those pieces of information and accept
762
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:02.800
them in system and have that changed the way your
763
00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:06.599
patient is treated. I stuck right by his side. I
764
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:10.440
had to advocate for him, to repeat what John was
765
00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:13.280
needing to every person who came in the room. And
766
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:17.320
so I think there's a when you have the support
767
00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:20.400
that you need, I think there's more of a willingness
768
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:23.199
on your part on John's part to know he can
769
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:26.119
be vulnerable and he can tell his story and he
770
00:43:26.199 --> 00:43:29.800
can ask for the things that he needs because I'm
771
00:43:29.800 --> 00:43:33.159
there just sort of advocate for him and help him.
772
00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:36.920
And there's a difference between being a victim and being vulnerable,
773
00:43:37.719 --> 00:43:39.239
and it is attitudeinal.
774
00:43:39.639 --> 00:43:42.480
It's the essence of who you are. The victim is, well,
775
00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:44.239
you don't understand these.
776
00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:47.239
Happened too, And as a vulnerable it's like, I'm going
777
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:51.480
to help you understand the challenge I'm having with this.
778
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.960
And I think that attitude is really the core of
779
00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.519
the thing. And I feel like people pick up on
780
00:43:57.599 --> 00:43:59.920
that because every time that we've done that.
781
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:03.199
We were at one case I'd sliced my finger off
782
00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:06.159
and we told them, don't give this guy more feine,
783
00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:08.599
but he'll lead it for paint and said, she said, don't.
784
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:10.719
Give him more feet because if he gets any opioids,
785
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:13.079
he gets instant recall of what happens to his kid
786
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:15.760
and he wakes up trashing and violent.
787
00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:17.440
And they gave me more feend.
788
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:20.639
So Mel's sitting waiting in the fire of the hospital
789
00:44:20.679 --> 00:44:23.119
and this nurse rushed up, woofed.
790
00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:25.440
Up her all her bags, so purse a computer and
791
00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:28.880
ran off down the come with me, and they've given
792
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:30.159
me more feine. And I was sad.
793
00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:31.920
Now he's wreaking up, and.
794
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.440
I was waking up swimming because in my head I
795
00:44:34.599 --> 00:44:35.480
was naked.
796
00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:38.039
In a bed surrounded by people as a kid who
797
00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:42.039
were going to rape me and hurt me. But when
798
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:44.760
she explained, did you yes, we did, I asked you
799
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:47.639
not to. There they go, oh, Mia Cooper, we get
800
00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:50.239
it now. We understand that this isn't a difficult patient.
801
00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:54.679
This is a patient having a difficult time. And for
802
00:44:55.199 --> 00:45:02.159
me that vulnerability of scars and and being proud is
803
00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:05.400
the wrong word, being comfortable that I've come so fast
804
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:13.440
that I'm okay talking about an incredibly distressing and dysfunctional childhood,
805
00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:16.320
not only to myself but to many people to hear
806
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:20.480
and understanding that they're going to have to be comfortable
807
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:25.360
with their uncomfortability, if that's the praise, Gettable with being uncomfortable,
808
00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:28.239
because I'm going to get comfortable with.
809
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:31.360
Sharing about it because I need to meet on a
810
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:35.079
level of humanity and I need to engage only with
811
00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:38.119
people who can walk with us together like this.
812
00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:39.960
Wow.
813
00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:45.760
First off, thank you for sharing that with us. You know,
814
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:50.920
it is clear how much work you've done personally and
815
00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:56.880
together when you can talk about vulnerability in this way, right,
816
00:45:56.920 --> 00:46:02.880
which is just such a powerful communication of humanity as
817
00:46:02.920 --> 00:46:06.199
you said, and I think that as it is tragic
818
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:08.920
in the healthcare system today where you know, we are
819
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:14.039
at a point where we oftentimes as healthcare providers are
820
00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:16.920
put at odds with our with our patients because of
821
00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:20.000
the preconceived notions that people have coming in to see
822
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:23.320
their doctors and the preconceived notions that doctors and clinicians
823
00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:27.360
and nurses have of their patients that have resulted in
824
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:29.719
in us and forgetting that the whole point of what
825
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:34.280
we're doing is to help you help the client, the
826
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:38.000
patient feel safe enough to be vulnerable, because it is
827
00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:41.400
that vulnerability that is the source of healing. Right. It
828
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:44.320
creates that you either the client or the patient feeling
829
00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:49.519
safe enough to be vulnerable, hopefully facilitated by us and
830
00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:53.480
or by the healthcare provider, is what allows It creates
831
00:46:53.559 --> 00:46:56.480
like almost that fertile soil for the healing to take root.
832
00:46:57.039 --> 00:46:59.239
And without that, it's like, you know, it's like trying
833
00:46:59.320 --> 00:47:01.920
to like plant or seeds for your food in an
834
00:47:01.960 --> 00:47:04.880
empty bed, right, there's nothing for it to take root in.
835
00:47:05.079 --> 00:47:09.440
There's no nourishment and hearing your journey and your path
836
00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:14.239
that you've taken around you know, specifically, I think this emphasizes,
837
00:47:14.440 --> 00:47:16.559
I think, for a lot of people, a learning opportunity
838
00:47:16.599 --> 00:47:20.559
towards self acceptance and the power, the sheer power of
839
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:25.440
self acceptance and the recognition that you have cultivated through
840
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:29.519
discipline of just accepting your self for who you are
841
00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:32.559
and what you are and knowing that. I think a
842
00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:37.199
lot of it stems from gratitude for just being who
843
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:40.400
you are, and that nobody's excited about these things that
844
00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:42.360
have happened to us, but they've happened to us nonetheless,
845
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:44.840
and it's resulted in who we are. And so you
846
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:49.239
being able to accept yourself and accept your life as
847
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:53.119
it is kind of brings you up to the present moment,
848
00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:57.039
which allows you to step out of that victim mindset
849
00:47:57.119 --> 00:48:00.440
and communicate your needs clearly to the people who you're
850
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:03.679
interacting with, which is so important and I think it's
851
00:48:03.679 --> 00:48:04.719
a lesson that all of us.
852
00:48:04.599 --> 00:48:07.119
Could learn from it. Well, thanks, mate.
853
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:10.800
You're listening to the Psychedelic Report.
854
00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:13.760
I didn't like who what it was, and I didn't
855
00:48:13.880 --> 00:48:16.880
like my background. There was on several occasions I was
856
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:19.360
told very clearly that I should end my life, that
857
00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:21.119
I was never going to get better, that I'd never
858
00:48:21.159 --> 00:48:23.639
be any good to matildren All and.
859
00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:27.480
Melissa on two occasions. I was sitting in the backroud
860
00:48:27.559 --> 00:48:32.840
contemplating suicide. And I've come to believe that people who
861
00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:36.880
commit suicide aren't as emotional as made out. I think
862
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:41.760
they're actually very logical. I ronly swear analysis strength wes
863
00:48:41.800 --> 00:48:45.079
the opportunities to threat on why committing suicide was going
864
00:48:45.159 --> 00:48:47.639
to be beneficial for everybody that I loved because I
865
00:48:48.039 --> 00:48:52.119
didn't have a problem with my internal decision making process
866
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:54.039
to be able to follow through with this app It
867
00:48:54.079 --> 00:48:55.840
was going to be the better for everyone else because
868
00:48:55.880 --> 00:48:58.239
I was told I would never get better and I
869
00:48:58.280 --> 00:48:59.239
was hurting everybody.
870
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:02.280
Therefore, do us all the fire and remove yourself, right.
871
00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:05.440
And it wasn't until and I talk about it in
872
00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:08.519
the book. Melissa ran on two occasions just randomly to
873
00:49:08.599 --> 00:49:09.039
talk to me.
874
00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:13.159
We worked together. I didn't know this until actually I
875
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:15.760
was proofing the first copy of the book. I was like,
876
00:49:16.119 --> 00:49:17.400
was that me that called you?
877
00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:20.599
And she made these phone calls and I was like, Oh,
878
00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:23.079
I'm valuable and important to something.
879
00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:26.280
That's an interesting thought. I've never had that thought before.
880
00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:28.280
All Right, well I went through that.
881
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:31.519
I'll think about something else and I'll do something else.
882
00:49:32.119 --> 00:49:34.840
But I think that's that's a very important part of it.
883
00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:38.880
I think this idea of rebuilding your identity after you've
884
00:49:38.920 --> 00:49:41.599
had like this big traumatic In John's case, it was
885
00:49:41.679 --> 00:49:45.280
recalled of all of the traumatic events, like his identity
886
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:47.760
was destroyed and he was a barm dropped in the
887
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:51.800
middle of it. And so now there's little pieces that
888
00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:56.199
help you rebuild that identity along the way. And there
889
00:49:56.280 --> 00:50:00.599
was a therapist who gave him the word resilient. She said,
890
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:02.639
you're the most resilient person I ever met. And he
891
00:50:03.079 --> 00:50:05.360
connected with that, and he's like, oh, I am, well,
892
00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:10.320
I'm something yeah, And then I remember and I think
893
00:50:10.360 --> 00:50:15.239
it's twenty seventeen or so. He read Brene Brown's book
894
00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:19.199
and he came away from that saying vulnerability is courage
895
00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:21.119
and he really connected with that. He's like, I'm a
896
00:50:21.159 --> 00:50:25.199
courageous person, So I can be vulnerable. I can tell
897
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:28.000
my story. I can maybe help other people by telling
898
00:50:28.039 --> 00:50:31.320
my story. So there's little things along the way I
899
00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:32.760
think that you connected with.
900
00:50:33.280 --> 00:50:35.199
And that's what I find a challenging a lot of
901
00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:38.599
my mates that are fatterans or ex coppers, is they're
902
00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:41.800
still defining themselves based upon what they were able to
903
00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:43.679
do in their thirties, you.
904
00:50:43.639 --> 00:50:45.039
Know, And they used to be able to sneak up
905
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:47.079
on bad guys. Now they can't walk down the stairs
906
00:50:47.079 --> 00:50:50.039
without the knees popping, you know. I warn everybody in
907
00:50:50.079 --> 00:50:52.679
the house and waking the dog, and it's like, dude,
908
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:54.559
I can't do that thing anymore. Now you can't do
909
00:50:54.679 --> 00:50:58.639
the thing, but that thing is my entire existence. Well, no,
910
00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:00.840
let's talk about who you are, the qualities you have,
911
00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:04.280
and they just can't shift past that. They just can't
912
00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:08.880
click into that and go forward, which I think is
913
00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:11.480
why we have And you think of it. If you
914
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:14.320
have to totally define yourself by what you've done, you've
915
00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:15.599
been very successful at it.
916
00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:18.119
You come back now and there's nothing like that, and
917
00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:18.679
you can no.
918
00:51:18.679 --> 00:51:21.719
Longer do that, and there's no way forward for you
919
00:51:22.119 --> 00:51:25.679
because there's no environment to accept who you are and
920
00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:30.639
really understand what those skills mean and the value they
921
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:33.480
bring to society. Then you sit in the backyard and
922
00:51:33.519 --> 00:51:36.760
you go, you know, I fucked, I've got no way forward.
923
00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:39.599
I might as well just get out eating here because
924
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:41.360
I'm in the way of everybody else.
925
00:51:42.199 --> 00:51:44.119
And I think that's why we have a lot of
926
00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:47.000
those the tragedies that we're having today.
927
00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:50.599
Yeah, I couldn't read more in anything that with This
928
00:51:50.800 --> 00:51:53.280
reminds me of something that we talk about all the
929
00:51:53.320 --> 00:51:58.360
time with our clients, which is the experiences you just described,
930
00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:01.559
the thought process you just discribe to you know, even
931
00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:04.079
defining yourself by what you do and by what's happened
932
00:52:04.119 --> 00:52:07.079
to you, and the victim mindset is really like a
933
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:12.199
fracturing of trust in ourselves, right, And the interactions that
934
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:15.639
you had that you described with Mel, with your therapist,
935
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:18.679
with the different positive role models that you've had over
936
00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:22.800
the last decade plus years or more, have really I mean,
937
00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:25.360
would you say that it sounds like what you're saying
938
00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:29.400
is that they've really helped to model trust for you
939
00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:31.920
so that you can learn to trust yourself again and
940
00:52:32.039 --> 00:52:34.440
sort of repair that trust. Is that fair?
941
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:38.440
I think so. I don't think it is. I don't
942
00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:40.119
know what you talked to I think so.
943
00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:44.679
I think even going back to the nap story and
944
00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:50.440
it's it really is learning to trust yourself that you
945
00:52:50.599 --> 00:52:55.239
know what's best for you in that moment. And Okay,
946
00:52:55.280 --> 00:52:57.480
so all the information I have right now tells me
947
00:52:57.559 --> 00:53:00.360
that I probably just need to give myself. For mission
948
00:53:00.400 --> 00:53:03.239
to take a night doesn't mean I'm lazy or you know.
949
00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:06.639
And so along the way, you wanted to trust and
950
00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:12.079
for John to walk into a restaurant saying and for
951
00:53:12.199 --> 00:53:14.960
him to say, I don't feel comfortable here is too
952
00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:18.360
crowded for him to be able to say that to me,
953
00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:22.559
and to trust that he knows what's best for him.
954
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:25.880
But also the fact that she's not going to judge
955
00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:29.559
me and say, well, that's stupid, I really want to
956
00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:30.000
eat here.
957
00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:33.719
It's like, well, you know, I walked into a candle
958
00:53:33.800 --> 00:53:38.480
saw and I totally freaked out because there was a particular.
959
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:40.400
Sense that I remember smelling when I was being abused,
960
00:53:41.079 --> 00:53:43.519
and I mean I totally froze.
961
00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:45.760
And she wanted to go to this store and see
962
00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:46.119
this thing.
963
00:53:46.440 --> 00:53:49.000
She didn't yell and scream at my incompetence, which I've
964
00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:51.599
had happened to me before because I wasn't able to
965
00:53:51.639 --> 00:53:51.880
do her.
966
00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:55.480
She just said, Okay, well we'll go and get an
967
00:53:55.480 --> 00:54:01.719
ice cream. So this level of acceptance has been had
968
00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:03.079
had a profound impact.
969
00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:08.280
I think you talked about the importance of having those
970
00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:11.400
things external to you. I remember when I talked to
971
00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:13.440
my therapist and I was in the board and she
972
00:54:13.519 --> 00:54:15.559
was a wonderful person, but I thought she was Satan
973
00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:21.800
incarnate herself, missus Lucifer. And she heard my story, and
974
00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:23.559
you know, I went up from a forty five minute
975
00:54:23.559 --> 00:54:25.320
introduction now into an hour and a half.
976
00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:28.360
And two hours long. And she burst into tears and said,
977
00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:31.639
that's the worst story I've ever heard. I've been doing
978
00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:34.559
this for thirty five years. I can't help you.
979
00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:37.800
You're just going to have to go somewhere else. And
980
00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:39.719
I remember looking at her and saying, you know what.
981
00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:43.039
I thank you for that feedback, but I need you
982
00:54:43.079 --> 00:54:45.960
to understand. I don't need you to heal me. I
983
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:48.360
need you to give me tools for my toolbox. I'll
984
00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:49.280
take care of the rest.
985
00:54:49.679 --> 00:54:51.880
I said. Number one. Number two is I will never
986
00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:53.840
tell this story again. Now.
987
00:54:54.079 --> 00:54:55.840
I took a chance on you, and I was vulnerable,
988
00:54:55.880 --> 00:54:58.400
and I'm not being manipulative. I'm just telling you that
989
00:54:58.519 --> 00:54:59.960
I flew out of state.
990
00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:02.679
I went from Texas to South Dakota, so I wasn't
991
00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:04.920
in a place where I felt people would know me.
992
00:55:05.199 --> 00:55:07.559
And I told a perfect stranger who had been recommended
993
00:55:07.599 --> 00:55:11.280
to me all my crap that I never wanted.
994
00:55:11.079 --> 00:55:13.679
To repeat or even thinking about and I said, I
995
00:55:13.719 --> 00:55:16.119
took a chance on you, and I don't need you
996
00:55:16.199 --> 00:55:17.159
to take a chance on me.
997
00:55:17.559 --> 00:55:20.320
I'm taking a chance on me. What I need you
998
00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:23.039
to do is guide me to pick up the tools
999
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:24.320
that I go and I'm going to go to live.
1000
00:55:24.480 --> 00:55:26.320
My toolbox can how to handles the one hundred and
1001
00:55:26.360 --> 00:55:28.960
twenty tools. I might get three or four from you.
1002
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:33.719
That's all I'm wanting from you. You're my smallness board.
1003
00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:36.440
You're not my other card. I just need a couple
1004
00:55:36.440 --> 00:55:39.280
of pieces. And that changed that relationship.
1005
00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:42.000
And what was interesting is it put me back in
1006
00:55:42.159 --> 00:55:46.800
charge because I felt confident in my ability to be
1007
00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:49.480
able to handle this thing. And I think a lot
1008
00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:51.760
of people when they get recall, and I'm thinking of
1009
00:55:51.800 --> 00:55:52.920
a lot of my mates.
1010
00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:57.039
Is they don't feel in charge of their recovery. Which
1011
00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:00.360
surprises me because these men have been learned, women have
1012
00:56:00.760 --> 00:56:04.840
wort to be in charge in the most adverse situations
1013
00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:08.880
every existence in modern history and take charge and fix
1014
00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:11.880
it and make it happen. Yet they can't take that
1015
00:56:12.119 --> 00:56:14.840
skill and go, I'm going to fix this and I'm
1016
00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:18.239
going to make this happen. And that disconnect to me is,
1017
00:56:19.360 --> 00:56:21.239
you know, I'm an old rugby player. Mate. We're smart,
1018
00:56:21.239 --> 00:56:23.840
but we're not clever. So you know, like, well, if
1019
00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:27.039
I can work this shit out, surely these people who
1020
00:56:27.559 --> 00:56:30.159
have got the skills and training, you know they can
1021
00:56:30.199 --> 00:56:30.599
as well.
1022
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:33.320
I think one of the most important things we do
1023
00:56:33.440 --> 00:56:37.320
for people is we do give them permission to take
1024
00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:43.280
charge of their recovery. And we are huge on personal
1025
00:56:43.320 --> 00:56:47.199
responsibility around here. So folks who come to us for
1026
00:56:47.320 --> 00:56:50.480
coaching and they're they're still sort of swimming the victim loop.
1027
00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:52.639
We cancel the contract after this.
1028
00:56:52.760 --> 00:56:55.760
They don't last very long, you know, they don't we
1029
00:56:55.800 --> 00:56:58.119
give them a shits. We're like, look, here's what we
1030
00:56:58.159 --> 00:57:03.880
need you to do. We talk about responsibility, identity, getting
1031
00:57:03.880 --> 00:57:07.320
out of the victim narrative, and if they don't want,
1032
00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:10.920
if they're not ready, then they usually move on down
1033
00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:11.320
the road.
1034
00:57:11.360 --> 00:57:14.760
And I think that's why I look, I know my
1035
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:17.360
story is horrible. You know, I wouldn't wish my story
1036
00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:20.639
on me, let alone anybody else. I know it's terrible.
1037
00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:23.159
It's one of those you think you've got no shoes,
1038
00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:25.920
let me swap stories with you. I'm legless over here,
1039
00:57:26.320 --> 00:57:27.920
so I'm aware of that, and I use that and
1040
00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:30.480
I use that in the sense of I want to
1041
00:57:30.519 --> 00:57:31.440
give people.
1042
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:35.079
Permission to have hope that if I can make it,
1043
00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:38.119
they can make it. And every time I share my story,
1044
00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:41.280
it's a great personal cost, and as I explained earlier.
1045
00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:43.239
It's going to it will cost even after talking today,
1046
00:57:43.880 --> 00:57:45.400
But I think it's worth it.
1047
00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:50.199
If what I've been through and what we've learned in
1048
00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:54.119
overcoming is give someone else hope that I'm.
1049
00:57:53.920 --> 00:57:58.480
Winning over here, because all those people who thought they
1050
00:57:58.480 --> 00:58:03.079
were going to break, they lose. They lose because they did,
1051
00:58:03.519 --> 00:58:05.639
and I've actually managed to pass it on to someone
1052
00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:09.800
else and now they're not losy. So we win, you know,
1053
00:58:10.239 --> 00:58:12.880
and we just go down this path and hopefully they
1054
00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:16.639
get to someone else and we all just win. And
1055
00:58:17.079 --> 00:58:20.719
I just that's probably one of the things that motivate.
1056
00:58:20.360 --> 00:58:24.639
Me the most is is given a birdy to those
1057
00:58:24.679 --> 00:58:28.480
that wanted to destroy me and say, my life.
1058
00:58:28.239 --> 00:58:32.920
Is really good, my marriage is really good, my future
1059
00:58:33.039 --> 00:58:38.519
is bright, and it's all going to work out. You know.
1060
00:58:39.480 --> 00:58:44.280
That's really beautiful and very commendable because I think you
1061
00:58:44.840 --> 00:58:48.000
I don't think I know that from hearing you talk
1062
00:58:48.079 --> 00:58:51.920
about this and hearing you describe what you just described,
1063
00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:55.239
that you know you you have done just that, right.
1064
00:58:55.400 --> 00:59:02.159
You have helped so many people simply by showing yourself
1065
00:59:02.320 --> 00:59:07.559
that you can do it and that you have hope
1066
00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:11.880
and given yourself permission to have hope, and giving yourself
1067
00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:15.199
permission to heal, and giving yourself permission to accept yourself
1068
00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:17.719
or who you are, and giving yourself permission to take
1069
00:59:17.719 --> 00:59:19.960
control of your life, to really like step into the
1070
00:59:20.039 --> 00:59:24.159
driver's seat of your life effectively. And that's something that
1071
00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:27.840
so many people in the world today, whether they've experienced
1072
00:59:28.280 --> 00:59:30.400
what some people call big T trauma or little T
1073
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:32.559
trauma or whatever it is, you know, but we've all
1074
00:59:32.559 --> 00:59:36.239
had adverse experiences in different ways, and and you know,
1075
00:59:36.280 --> 00:59:38.719
whatever we want to call it, it's really about just
1076
00:59:39.320 --> 00:59:41.920
giving ourself permission to step into that driver's seat and
1077
00:59:42.599 --> 00:59:43.280
take the wheel.
1078
00:59:43.760 --> 00:59:46.599
Because trauma's trauma, as you said, and like you mentioned
1079
00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:51.079
that much in your little gadget for me, absolutely life
1080
00:59:51.199 --> 00:59:55.440
changing because it gave me another tool now and I'm
1081
00:59:55.559 --> 00:59:57.480
very grateful you invented it and you did all that
1082
00:59:57.480 --> 00:59:58.199
sort of stuff you want.
1083
00:59:58.239 --> 01:00:00.920
The missis that brought simply you did was give me
1084
01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:04.840
another tool for my toolbox. And that's what's so enabling
1085
01:00:04.880 --> 01:00:07.960
about it is that it's not a programmer or a subscription,
1086
01:00:08.119 --> 01:00:09.039
it's not something else.
1087
01:00:09.079 --> 01:00:12.480
It's something I can take and I can use to
1088
01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:15.679
day in this situation. And I think people who have
1089
01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:20.159
experienced that suffer and face FEEDSD that's what they need,
1090
01:00:20.239 --> 01:00:23.559
is like what I need something, Now I've got it
1091
01:00:23.599 --> 01:00:26.440
if I can put my hands on it. And that's
1092
01:00:26.480 --> 01:00:29.480
why I'm so very excited about It's another tool for
1093
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:30.119
the toolbox.
1094
01:00:30.119 --> 01:00:33.440
And you don't nothing you've said or in your literature
1095
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:36.960
comes across like this is the golden egg and this
1096
01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:39.079
is the be all and end all to it, and
1097
01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:42.440
everything in your conversations with you and in your writings
1098
01:00:42.440 --> 01:00:45.599
and your website, it's like we fully accept and understand
1099
01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:49.719
that this is one tool in everybody's toolbox. And I
1100
01:00:49.840 --> 01:00:53.440
think people are looking for a fairy godmother and she'll
1101
01:00:53.480 --> 01:00:55.800
never turn up with a magic Wand you know, you've
1102
01:00:55.800 --> 01:00:58.719
got to get up every day and go and find
1103
01:00:58.719 --> 01:00:59.960
a tool for your toolbox.
1104
01:01:00.519 --> 01:01:04.400
And I haven't slept twelve for fourteen years until the
1105
01:01:04.519 --> 01:01:08.679
last three months, so I've gone from interrupted sleep that
1106
01:01:08.840 --> 01:01:11.960
lasts three or four hours now getting five and six
1107
01:01:12.039 --> 01:01:12.599
hours a night.
1108
01:01:12.639 --> 01:01:14.639
Now to some people, that's not luck to me, it's
1109
01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:18.320
not enough yet. But that's double my sleep because I've
1110
01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:22.400
got a tool for my toolbox, and my fairy godmother
1111
01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:25.239
didn't give that to me. You know, a maid of
1112
01:01:25.239 --> 01:01:27.400
mine who meant a mayor of years, we met this
1113
01:01:27.440 --> 01:01:30.000
guy who handed this guy this thing, and all of
1114
01:01:30.039 --> 01:01:32.840
a sudden, I'm sleeping so broke. Cutos to you for
1115
01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:36.159
not being a fairy godmin'.
1116
01:01:36.519 --> 01:01:38.599
I'm so glad to hear that that Apollo has been
1117
01:01:38.599 --> 01:01:41.639
helping you, and you know, I think that and been
1118
01:01:41.679 --> 01:01:44.079
another tool for you. I think this has always been
1119
01:01:44.119 --> 01:01:47.559
the biggest challenge as being a psychiatrist or a psychologist.
1120
01:01:47.639 --> 01:01:52.360
Working with people with PTSD is almost as frustrating as
1121
01:01:52.360 --> 01:01:55.079
being somebody who has it, because we are not taught
1122
01:01:55.119 --> 01:01:58.000
to we're not trained to deal with futility. We're we're
1123
01:01:58.039 --> 01:02:01.639
trained to administer treatments and and to heal people when
1124
01:02:01.639 --> 01:02:04.639
they're suffering and to help them feel better, and yet
1125
01:02:04.760 --> 01:02:08.119
we are then caught in this same I think what
1126
01:02:08.159 --> 01:02:09.840
a lot of people don't realize when they look at
1127
01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:11.360
the mental health system is that a lot of us
1128
01:02:11.400 --> 01:02:13.760
are as the clinicians, are caught in the same loop
1129
01:02:13.760 --> 01:02:17.679
as the patients or the clients whereby you know, we
1130
01:02:17.719 --> 01:02:21.079
are taught to provide care, and then that care that
1131
01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:23.599
we're taught to provide doesn't work and doesn't solve the problem.
1132
01:02:23.719 --> 01:02:27.039
And the tools that we're giving people, unfortunately, many of
1133
01:02:27.079 --> 01:02:30.679
them are great breath work is, great meditations, great yoga, exercise,
1134
01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:35.280
behavior change, CBT, exposure. All of these tools are very
1135
01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:40.159
very powerful tools, but they require a lot of effort, attention, assistance,
1136
01:02:40.559 --> 01:02:44.320
you know, sometimes invasiveness in the case of implantable tools
1137
01:02:44.440 --> 01:02:48.719
or intense medicine based tools, and these things are not
1138
01:02:48.760 --> 01:02:51.199
without effort, and I think, you know, for us, it
1139
01:02:51.320 --> 01:02:53.800
was always about, you know, how do we help our
1140
01:02:53.840 --> 01:02:56.760
clients and the people who are suffering be able to
1141
01:02:57.039 --> 01:03:01.519
achieve a certain calm or balance so that allows them
1142
01:03:01.599 --> 01:03:04.280
the ability to feel like they're more at the center
1143
01:03:04.320 --> 01:03:07.639
of their healing experience and that they have more tools
1144
01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:10.199
that they can use. And then we have more tools
1145
01:03:10.199 --> 01:03:12.519
that we can use. And when we can align on
1146
01:03:12.679 --> 01:03:15.199
the tools that we have available, then you know, we
1147
01:03:15.199 --> 01:03:17.760
can start to recognize the opportunity to bring in more
1148
01:03:17.800 --> 01:03:20.840
tools right and to and because there's so many tools
1149
01:03:20.840 --> 01:03:23.239
out there, it's just I use this analogy and my
1150
01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:26.280
favorite analogies. You know, you think about our bodies being
1151
01:03:26.320 --> 01:03:29.320
the highest performing vehicle ever own in this life. And
1152
01:03:29.719 --> 01:03:32.440
you know, if you go to a mechanic who is
1153
01:03:32.480 --> 01:03:36.360
the best mechanic who has the worst tools, then usually
1154
01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:38.599
they'll be smart enough to tell you that they are
1155
01:03:38.639 --> 01:03:40.119
not going to be able to fix your car with
1156
01:03:40.199 --> 01:03:44.239
the tools they have, generally speaking, although in the case
1157
01:03:44.280 --> 01:03:47.480
of mental health, where with our hands tied, we're often
1158
01:03:47.559 --> 01:03:51.719
still prescribing the tools that aren't necessarily working, which then
1159
01:03:52.079 --> 01:03:55.599
has the downstream effect of causing other problems that we
1160
01:03:55.639 --> 01:03:58.920
then have to prescribe more tools to solve, which is
1161
01:03:58.960 --> 01:04:01.639
why people with PTS often wind up on anywhere between
1162
01:04:01.639 --> 01:04:04.960
five and fifteen different medications that aren't actually getting to
1163
01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:09.480
the root. But then you have a poor mechanic who
1164
01:04:09.639 --> 01:04:11.880
has the best tools, and they will definitely break your
1165
01:04:11.920 --> 01:04:13.639
car because they don't even know how to use the tools.
1166
01:04:13.639 --> 01:04:18.440
About right. I think the other thing, too, Dave, is like,
1167
01:04:18.599 --> 01:04:21.679
you're not messianic in your poor approach, like no one's
1168
01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:24.880
got the answer. And as soon as someone tells me, listen,
1169
01:04:25.119 --> 01:04:27.079
if you take this, this is going to solve your problem.
1170
01:04:27.119 --> 01:04:29.000
It's like, dude, you're full of it. I don't want
1171
01:04:29.039 --> 01:04:31.679
to touch that stuff, you know, because it can't be
1172
01:04:31.719 --> 01:04:34.079
good for me, because if you believe it's going to
1173
01:04:34.119 --> 01:04:36.880
fit and you don't even know, so you don't even
1174
01:04:36.960 --> 01:04:40.440
know the depths of this problem. But if you come
1175
01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:42.199
to me and say, I've got something you need to
1176
01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:44.760
But I think it's been a systemic and a cultural
1177
01:04:44.760 --> 01:04:47.440
thing in healthcare is there've been either lord or a
1178
01:04:47.519 --> 01:04:51.559
place so that put a pedestal that they are the surgeons.
1179
01:04:51.079 --> 01:04:53.519
That hold the beating heart in the hand, or they
1180
01:04:53.599 --> 01:04:55.480
hold the mind in the hand, and they've got all
1181
01:04:55.519 --> 01:04:57.039
that answers as opposed to.
1182
01:04:56.960 --> 01:04:58.320
A partnership to wholeness.
1183
01:04:59.199 --> 01:05:02.519
Because once you get the partnership the wholeness, then all
1184
01:05:02.519 --> 01:05:04.280
of a sudden you're not a single person with a
1185
01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:04.960
single bench.
1186
01:05:05.280 --> 01:05:09.079
You're now a team of people and all those patients
1187
01:05:09.079 --> 01:05:13.119
with answers and helps and inquiries are all moving together.
1188
01:05:13.400 --> 01:05:16.480
It's a collaborative event. And that's what I like about
1189
01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:19.199
very much about what I've learned about how you do
1190
01:05:19.320 --> 01:05:24.199
think to the mono.
1191
01:05:22.639 --> 01:05:25.960
And I think too. We talked about, you know, giving
1192
01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:28.440
the patient, you know, the rains, trying to give them
1193
01:05:28.440 --> 01:05:33.320
the responsibility for their recovery efforts and I think that
1194
01:05:34.079 --> 01:05:38.320
in itself sort of empowers a more holistic approach because
1195
01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:43.519
managing PTSD is it's everything about your life. There's food
1196
01:05:43.559 --> 01:05:47.880
com you know, food and chemicals and processes that happen
1197
01:05:47.960 --> 01:05:51.800
in the brain, and devices, wearables and you know, and
1198
01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:54.280
so they so it goes on like you you have
1199
01:05:54.840 --> 01:05:58.679
all of these tools at your disposal and if you're
1200
01:05:58.920 --> 01:06:03.360
if you the patient in the diver's and I think.
1201
01:06:03.800 --> 01:06:08.599
She's my biggest tool, glad tool looks.
1202
01:06:08.280 --> 01:06:13.039
From I can tell, and it's that it's that support
1203
01:06:13.320 --> 01:06:16.920
you know that you have, that you cultivated that I
1204
01:06:16.960 --> 01:06:21.000
think really shows that you are at the center of
1205
01:06:21.039 --> 01:06:23.239
your own journey right that you're at the center of
1206
01:06:23.239 --> 01:06:26.400
your healing experience. And you know, even this is a
1207
01:06:26.400 --> 01:06:29.519
great place to wrap up, I think, because you know,
1208
01:06:29.559 --> 01:06:31.920
this really goes back to the ancient origins of medicine
1209
01:06:31.920 --> 01:06:34.719
and healing, which are not just even going back to
1210
01:06:34.840 --> 01:06:36.880
we can go up back to Hippocrates and my Monodies,
1211
01:06:36.920 --> 01:06:39.360
who who are some of the originators of what we
1212
01:06:39.480 --> 01:06:42.719
now consider Western medicine, which is the idea that even
1213
01:06:42.840 --> 01:06:45.639
back then, thousands of years ago, in the origins of
1214
01:06:45.679 --> 01:06:49.320
Western medicine, these these people were saying the individual who
1215
01:06:49.320 --> 01:06:51.480
is struggling. The patient is at the center of their
1216
01:06:51.519 --> 01:06:55.280
healing experience. We are the guides, right we as the clinicians,
1217
01:06:55.280 --> 01:06:57.880
we are the guides. We have the educators, We give
1218
01:06:57.960 --> 01:07:01.519
the tools. As you described earlier, it's up to you
1219
01:07:01.599 --> 01:07:06.199
as the individual to actually take the steps as guided
1220
01:07:06.239 --> 01:07:09.960
by people like us who can help role model trusts,
1221
01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:14.159
who can help role model safety and experience, and teach
1222
01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:15.400
you how to use the tools so that you can
1223
01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:17.159
then bring them into your own life and make the
1224
01:07:17.239 --> 01:07:20.800
change in sustainable way. And that also reflects in ancient
1225
01:07:20.880 --> 01:07:23.519
tribal medicine and Eastern medicine and the way that we
1226
01:07:23.559 --> 01:07:26.840
address all of these different struggles that people face. And
1227
01:07:27.519 --> 01:07:31.119
I think the good news about this is in hearing
1228
01:07:31.199 --> 01:07:34.280
your story, in looking at the way medicine is moving
1229
01:07:34.360 --> 01:07:36.960
into the twenty first century, is that we are starting
1230
01:07:36.960 --> 01:07:41.679
to finally come back full circle to recognizing that as
1231
01:07:42.320 --> 01:07:45.480
powerful tools that medicines can be, they are still and
1232
01:07:45.559 --> 01:07:49.119
will always be outside of us, and therefore we must
1233
01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:52.199
use them respectfully, and we must use them thoughtfully and
1234
01:07:52.239 --> 01:07:56.960
intentionally and always remember that the source of healing comes
1235
01:07:56.960 --> 01:07:59.280
from us, each of us for ourselves.
1236
01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:03.679
Strike I love it Mike, Look, anything we can past
1237
01:08:03.719 --> 01:08:06.000
that time with anything we we can do to help
1238
01:08:06.039 --> 01:08:09.000
you guys. And we believe in what you're doing the project,
1239
01:08:09.480 --> 01:08:13.559
you know, from experiential and theoretical. Uh, you know, I
1240
01:08:13.679 --> 01:08:15.639
really believe in what you do. Well.
1241
01:08:15.679 --> 01:08:18.479
I really appreciate that. I can't tell you enough. It's
1242
01:08:18.680 --> 01:08:20.800
there's nothing that makes me happier when we spent so
1243
01:08:20.880 --> 01:08:24.720
much time working on something like this, a tool specifically
1244
01:08:24.760 --> 01:08:28.920
originally for PTSD and helping people cope with trauma, to
1245
01:08:28.960 --> 01:08:33.479
hear that it is actually doing that job and helping
1246
01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:36.119
people feel better and giving people those tools.
1247
01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:38.640
So para booth was a face of crack you guys.
1248
01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:42.359
So Will done two nights ago. He forgot to wear
1249
01:08:42.439 --> 01:08:46.439
it and I was like, why were you so restless
1250
01:08:46.439 --> 01:08:48.600
all night? And he was like, I forgot.
1251
01:08:48.640 --> 01:08:51.760
I forgot my thing. I got at a bit at
1252
01:08:51.760 --> 01:08:53.640
fran and put the bloody thing on and like the
1253
01:08:55.119 --> 01:08:56.399
watch Sleep Watch.
1254
01:08:56.880 --> 01:08:59.159
I just want to say thank you again for your
1255
01:08:59.199 --> 01:09:03.239
time today. It's been a pleasure you. Thank you again
1256
01:09:03.560 --> 01:09:06.319
for all of your work. I really appreciate it.
1257
01:09:06.399 --> 01:09:08.039
Yours do my ends for sleep?
1258
01:09:08.560 --> 01:09:09.479
Yes, yay.
1259
01:09:11.039 --> 01:09:16.079
Thanks for listening to the Psychedelic Report. Visit us at
1260
01:09:16.119 --> 01:09:21.680
the Psychedelic Report dot com. The Psychedelic Report was brought
1261
01:09:21.680 --> 01:09:24.920
to you by a poly neuroscience and produced by Future
1262
01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:29.439
Medicine Media. While I am a doctor, I'm not your doctor,
1263
01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:32.560
So please don't take anything you hear on The Psychedelic
1264
01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:35.359
Report as personal medical advice because we don't know you.
1265
01:09:35.800 --> 01:09:38.640
If you have questions about anything you hear on this show,
1266
01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:40.319
please consult with your doctor,