006 - Advanced Work Packaging: The Billion-Dollar Productivity Lever with Geoff Ryan

1
00:00:00,810 --> 00:00:04,140
Welcome to the Major Project podcast, your inside.
2
00:00:04,140 --> 00:00:07,320
Look at the high stakes world of billion dollar projects.
3
00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:18,330
Jeff, uh, I believe you are maybe one of the world's leading experts, if not the leading expert on advanced work packages.
4
00:00:19,230 --> 00:00:24,900
Welcome to the podcast and um, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your history and a little bit about, uh, your art.
5
00:00:25,830 --> 00:00:26,100
Okay.
6
00:00:26,220 --> 00:00:27,000
Well, thank you very much.
7
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,230
Um, first of all, uh, I really appreciate, uh, being invited to be here today.
8
00:00:31,860 --> 00:00:40,350
Um, you know, one of the, uh, issues we have with advanced work packaging is getting the message out, so this is helping and I appreciate that.
9
00:00:40,650 --> 00:00:41,880
Um, so thank you very much.
10
00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,330
Re um, so, uh, little bit of history on me.
11
00:00:45,330 --> 00:00:46,680
Um, so I was in construction.
12
00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:51,720
I was actually a pipe fitter for many years, um, and, uh, worked through the, uh, the ranks of.
13
00:00:52,290 --> 00:00:54,120
Construction to become a project manager.
14
00:00:54,300 --> 00:01:07,080
Um, studied to be a project manager and got involved with some collaboration organizations in Alberta when we were working on mega projects and we were trying to figure out why they go sideways.
15
00:01:07,470 --> 00:01:12,900
Um, uh, we had a series of mega projects, uh, in the early two thousands that, uh, had really bad results.
16
00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:27,630
Um, so anyway, um, so I was, uh, I joined a committee of other, um, uh, uh, owner representatives and we did research for about, uh, for about two years, I guess, where we, we looked at projects that were being successful and ones that weren't being successful.
17
00:01:27,630 --> 00:01:37,800
And we tried to figure out what, what are the, the differences? Um, and something that all of your viewers will understand is the difference was planning, um, but not just planning.
18
00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,590
It was good quality plans with a tangible deliverable.
19
00:01:40,950 --> 00:01:46,320
So our tangible deliverable from that was that the foreman gives a package, the foreman gives a package.
20
00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,340
So ideally it's a like a week long and before we give it to the foreman.
21
00:01:51,570 --> 00:01:58,950
It has been proven and we found that the contractors that were doing that were getting lots of work done, which is not news to anybody either.
22
00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:07,920
Um, but anyway, that became the model for work face planning, uh, work face being, you know, the work face in a coal mine when that's where the pick hits the coal.
23
00:02:08,310 --> 00:02:14,790
So we, we, uh, we coined that phrase, uh, based on the idea that, you know, it's all about the workers.
24
00:02:15,150 --> 00:02:16,590
It's all about the workers and the foreman.
25
00:02:16,950 --> 00:02:20,340
If we can give them everything they need, then they get a lot of stuff done.
26
00:02:20,820 --> 00:02:22,830
Now, if you don't give it to them, they don't get much done.
27
00:02:23,070 --> 00:02:23,310
No.
28
00:02:23,790 --> 00:02:25,410
So anyway, so that was the, the model.
29
00:02:25,410 --> 00:02:25,950
So go ahead.
30
00:02:26,670 --> 00:02:26,820
Yeah.
31
00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:35,700
Well, so I'm super, so you were on a committee then kind of early on looking at these things and it, and the committee sort of came to the conclusion.
32
00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:41,850
It's like, it's, it's, it's the moment of that when someone has something to do and they don't know what to do, that's the.
33
00:02:42,510 --> 00:02:50,760
Because I mean, I, I think our view viewers all know, I think the stats are like 98% of all projects fail to meet their scope and schedule budget.
34
00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:56,820
And when you're in the sort of, uh, you know, large scale project, those are hundreds of millions of dollars we're talking about.
35
00:02:57,150 --> 00:03:14,640
Um, but anyway, so the committee, so, so you saw this and then what, what happened from there? How did they come up with sort of the answer? How do you make those, give those people information they need? So essentially, um, um, we were so very strict on ourselves.
36
00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:16,860
We weren't trying to create an answer.
37
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,230
We wanted to capture best practices.
38
00:03:19,620 --> 00:03:23,940
Uh, so we had to have examples of where people were doing this and they were being successful.
39
00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:32,765
Uh, so we captured that and we basically rolled that out to the industry and said, Hey, these guys are building packages, giving it to the foreman and getting lots done.
40
00:03:33,735 --> 00:03:40,335
They're very predictable, um, which is a bit wishy-washy, but, uh, and it's a bit more detailed than that.
41
00:03:41,085 --> 00:03:46,215
So we rolled that out at a series of conferences over, uh, up to, uh, 2005.
42
00:03:47,055 --> 00:03:52,035
Um, one of the problems that we had was that people could only get that literature and go away and try it.
43
00:03:52,035 --> 00:03:54,405
They didn't really have any other support for that.
44
00:03:54,705 --> 00:04:00,855
So, um, so anyway, at the time I decided to quit my job and hang my shingle up and say, Hey, I'll, I'll help.
45
00:04:01,305 --> 00:04:02,745
Okay, I understand this well enough.
46
00:04:02,745 --> 00:04:04,185
So that was the start of our company.
47
00:04:04,785 --> 00:04:10,905
Um, so then, uh, we were doing that for a number of years on a number of mega projects in Alberta being successful.
48
00:04:11,415 --> 00:04:21,495
Uh, and then CII, the Construction Industry Institute out of the University of Texas came to one of our conferences, saw what we were talking about, and said, Hey, this looks like it has merit.
49
00:04:21,525 --> 00:04:23,895
We would like to take it home and do a bit more research on it.
50
00:04:24,435 --> 00:04:27,075
Uh, so they formed a committee, uh, to do that.
51
00:04:27,870 --> 00:04:28,650
Research team.
52
00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:34,530
Uh, they come back after a couple of years and said, well, uh, it's not actually just a construction problem.
53
00:04:34,530 --> 00:04:37,350
It's an engineering procurement construction problem.
54
00:04:37,950 --> 00:04:38,790
Mm.
55
00:04:38,910 --> 00:04:39,180
Yeah.
56
00:04:39,570 --> 00:04:44,220
It's okay to say we want packages, but if you don't have the drawings, you don't have the materials, you're not building packages.
57
00:04:46,860 --> 00:04:48,210
Essentially, they did the same thing.
58
00:04:48,210 --> 00:04:58,470
They went out into the industry and said, who's doing this? And they found some organizations that had alignment across what they engineered, what they procured, and then what they tried to build.
59
00:04:59,250 --> 00:05:08,585
And so the work face planning model that we, uh, developed in Alberta expanded into advanced work packaging, which was the, uh, the, the bigger version of that.
60
00:05:09,915 --> 00:05:11,385
So then maybe just break it down.
61
00:05:11,415 --> 00:05:20,535
Let's say that I, because I am a complete idiot, and we have a few folks on the call that are probably very junior in their understanding of project control.
62
00:05:20,535 --> 00:05:30,225
So if we say work package, are we talking about a physical, you know, uh, work package that you hand to somebody, um, you know, kind of just take us through it.
63
00:05:30,225 --> 00:05:34,485
Like, I'm a foreman and I just started and I'm getting an advanced work package.
64
00:05:34,485 --> 00:05:42,315
What does that look like for you? So, yes, it's a, a physical package, um, but it could, it can also just be a digital package.
65
00:05:42,435 --> 00:05:49,035
So our, the package that we give to the foreman is actually called an installation work package to separate it from the other packages.
66
00:05:49,875 --> 00:05:55,215
Ideally, it's a document that says, this is what we're trying to get done, right? So here's the scope.
67
00:05:56,625 --> 00:05:57,555
Here's your material.
68
00:05:57,615 --> 00:06:00,525
So we've, we've organized for the material to be delivered to the site.
69
00:06:00,975 --> 00:06:04,545
Uh, we say, okay, we think it's five days work for 10 people.
70
00:06:04,785 --> 00:06:11,085
So you can, to earn 500 hours when you get this done, you're gonna need these tools, you're gonna need a crane, you're gonna need this permits.
71
00:06:11,865 --> 00:06:21,735
Basically sort of setting the foreman up to understand, uh, an expectation of what we expect to get done, but also that we've done everything we can to try to make that happen.
72
00:06:22,185 --> 00:06:24,675
And, uh, now it's their role to execute.
73
00:06:25,065 --> 00:06:34,935
Do you include, just in that package, do you include a list of risks? Is it almost like a mini project plan or does it, um, is that part kind of abstracted out? Yes.
74
00:06:34,965 --> 00:06:36,765
Um, and that's a actually a really good point.
75
00:06:36,765 --> 00:06:41,655
So in any plan, of course you need, uh, quality and safety addressed.
76
00:06:41,925 --> 00:06:48,105
Uh, so certainly, uh, safety risks are identified in the plan, uh, but also quality checkpoints if you like.
77
00:06:48,195 --> 00:06:53,685
So, hey, when we do this, we need to have this quality documentation, or you need to call in this quality inspection.
78
00:06:54,165 --> 00:07:01,125
Um, and also of course, you know, yes, there are risks, there are inherent risks in trying to do any work.
79
00:07:01,185 --> 00:07:17,685
Like, um, is the prerequisite work done? Do we have the right materials? Do they fit all sorts of, uh, risks that, um, could go wrong? So yeah, we have a bit of a, uh, a risk register in, in the back of a, a package that says, this is the, this is what could go wrong.
80
00:07:17,685 --> 00:07:19,095
This is what to do if it does go wrong.
81
00:07:19,605 --> 00:07:20,055
Yeah.
82
00:07:20,715 --> 00:07:27,885
Well, and, and you said that you, um, it seems like this is a natural evolution of the project management space.
83
00:07:27,885 --> 00:07:30,195
I know we've talked before offline about how.
84
00:07:30,705 --> 00:08:09,255
When you originally started, and I felt this way about some of the data stuff as well, it's like, you're like, why isn't everybody just going for this? This is so, such a self-evident, sort of natural progression for our industry, and I know you've been at it for a while and those that work with you or having amazing success, and what do you think is the challenge? Is there, like, I guess if I'm a PM listening to this on a major project or maybe an executive, like how do you actually implement it and what are the challenges to implementing it? Because it's like, where have you seen it, I guess, fail to be implemented properly or, um, you know how like if I am Yeah.
85
00:08:09,255 --> 00:08:14,475
If I'm a PM and I wanna start this in my practice, how do you do it? Okay.
86
00:08:14,475 --> 00:08:20,895
So first of all, and, and thank you for hitting on that, um, project management is a unique discipline.
87
00:08:22,020 --> 00:08:25,200
So we talk about a project having engineering, procurement and construction.
88
00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:30,540
Well, there is a, um, a conductor of that orchestra, which is called project management.
89
00:08:30,930 --> 00:08:36,270
So project management needs to be recognized as, um, uh, a holistic view of the project.
90
00:08:36,810 --> 00:08:46,650
Um, I raised a couple of teenagers, so I often think of this as, you know, I'm the parent in the room as the project manager and I'm trying to get these teenagers to play nice with each other.
91
00:08:48,270 --> 00:08:48,600
Yeah.
92
00:08:48,810 --> 00:08:49,230
Essentially.
93
00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:50,970
Yeah, essentially that's it.
94
00:08:51,270 --> 00:08:56,400
You know, we're trying to get engineering to give procurement what they want and give construction what they want.
95
00:08:57,030 --> 00:09:10,590
While, you know, that, um, for the longest time we had this theory in, in mega projects, especially that if you siloed engineering, procurement and construction and then you just, um, optimized each one of those that we would end up with a good result.
96
00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:19,020
Uh, well, the reality is that if you optimize engineering and procurement to their own budgets and schedules, then construction pay the price.
97
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,750
Because they are, they are not producing the drawings and the materials that construction need.
98
00:09:25,110 --> 00:09:29,880
And of course construction represents, um, truly represents half of the cost of any project.
99
00:09:30,180 --> 00:09:37,920
So we are sub, we are optimizing the, the smaller costs and, and, and um, uh, the construction are paying the big price.
100
00:09:38,220 --> 00:09:43,200
So where it fails, of course, is where we try, we don't manage to break that model.
101
00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:52,350
Uh, so we don't get alignment across what we engineer or the sequence of engineering, the sequence of procurement, uh, to match the sequence of construction.
102
00:09:53,130 --> 00:10:05,790
So, and I've heard people talk about basically sort of flipping the table here and we are making construction the boss, and we say to construction, you know, one of the things we would do at the start of a project is to say to them, uh, we'd have a path of construction workshop.
103
00:10:05,790 --> 00:10:08,580
And we say, imagine to the construction team.
104
00:10:08,970 --> 00:10:10,590
Imagine construction in heaven.
105
00:10:11,610 --> 00:10:13,410
You know, what does that look like? Yeah, right.
106
00:10:14,685 --> 00:10:18,975
Because the construction guys are, okay, well I'd do this first and then I do this, and then I do this and this.
107
00:10:19,425 --> 00:10:22,125
We've got, we've got engineering and procurement in the room.
108
00:10:22,485 --> 00:10:35,895
We're like, Hey, is it possible that you guys could deliver that in that sequence? Um, basically helping them understand the holistic approach to trying to get the project finished.
109
00:10:35,985 --> 00:10:44,265
So, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a different way of, of thinking of, um, uh, relationships, if you like, between EP and C.
110
00:10:45,015 --> 00:10:57,105
So when you work with orgs that come to you, and I know we gotta talk about data centers, but I'm just like, really wanna really wanna get into this a little bit more, but like, say somebody, um, I'm a pm I'm running a multi-billion dollar project.
111
00:10:57,105 --> 00:11:00,135
Let's say I'm in execute, so I'm in a messy phase.
112
00:11:00,405 --> 00:11:09,015
Can I still come to you and have you help me with advanced work packages? Or are we too far along, would you say? Like, and.
113
00:11:10,265 --> 00:11:14,370
Yeah, so, so this, this question comes up in, in varying different ways.
114
00:11:14,670 --> 00:11:32,250
Now, what if my project's really small? Uh, what if I've got different priorities on the projects? You know, what if I'm, I'm too late? What if I can't control materials? Well, and that's why, um, it's such a good, um, foundational, um, deliverable is the installation work package.
115
00:11:32,730 --> 00:11:34,380
You know, it's all about that package.
116
00:11:34,770 --> 00:11:43,560
If that's all you do, if you just make sure that you don't, every time you give a foreman an instruction to work that they can do the work.
117
00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:45,840
So don't put out work you can't do.
118
00:11:46,560 --> 00:12:01,275
Just put out work you can do, which is, I know like, you know, I love, I love talking to, uh, new graduates that come into our industry and I say that to them and they're like, well, what were you doing before that? Like you wouldn't believe.
119
00:12:04,155 --> 00:12:11,235
So yes, if you just focus on building packages that are executable, you will get results.
120
00:12:11,355 --> 00:12:13,125
And you can do that at any stage of the project.
121
00:12:13,785 --> 00:12:18,915
Of course, the earlier you get started down that path, the more packages you can build that are executable.
122
00:12:20,235 --> 00:12:21,315
And, okay.
123
00:12:21,315 --> 00:12:37,215
One last question I guess I'm, I'm super curious about, you know, they talk about form over function, right? So, at least in my world with developers, you can hand a developer a great project plan, almost like an advanced work package in say some app out there.
124
00:12:37,515 --> 00:12:40,635
And if they don't use the app, it's completely lost.
125
00:12:40,875 --> 00:12:51,615
Or if you deliver an email that says, I need you to do all these things, but the email is like mis structured and it says what it needs to say, but it's like the form of it, the, the design isn't good.
126
00:12:51,855 --> 00:12:53,925
Um, it's like the message gets lost.
127
00:12:53,925 --> 00:12:55,605
And I'm curious if in the work package.
128
00:12:56,010 --> 00:13:03,210
Like if foreman, you know, it's like how you present the work package also matters.
129
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:08,460
And if you've done any like, thinkings along those lines as well.
130
00:13:08,820 --> 00:13:12,750
Like, do you have a tool or Yeah, tell me, tell me about the, the form.
131
00:13:12,930 --> 00:13:15,810
So, so let's talk about two elements of that question.
132
00:13:15,875 --> 00:13:26,010
So we've got the, uh, the foreman and how they execute, but also upstream of that and, you know, all of those functions that we need in place in order to be able to build a package.
133
00:13:26,550 --> 00:13:28,530
Um, so, uh, let's talk about the foreman first.
134
00:13:28,530 --> 00:13:31,380
So first of all, uh, you're absolutely right.
135
00:13:31,380 --> 00:13:33,600
We have to train them to do this 'cause they don't trust us.
136
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:41,580
You know, we've been treating them like, um, you know, sort of second class for ages where we push a foreman into the field, we give 'em 10 people.
137
00:13:41,580 --> 00:13:43,530
We say, keep those guys busy and get it done.
138
00:13:43,935 --> 00:13:44,225
Yeah.
139
00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:50,595
And then we starve them for information and materials and they can't get the crane and they don't have access and it takes ages to get a permit.
140
00:13:51,015 --> 00:13:53,655
Um, so, you know, they're scrambling trying to get stuff done.
141
00:13:53,835 --> 00:13:59,565
So they're going from that environment to where we say, give 'em a package and we say, Hey, trust us, you'll be good now.
142
00:13:59,985 --> 00:14:01,005
And they're like, yeah, right.
143
00:14:01,935 --> 00:14:14,865
So, so they, they, they still don't, it, it takes time to go from, uh, basically, uh, survival mode into, okay, this is what I'm gonna do over the course of the next five days, I'm gonna do this, then this, then this and this.
144
00:14:15,285 --> 00:14:20,385
And so yes, we, uh, we, we thought once we gave a package to a foreman, we, we were home.
145
00:14:20,685 --> 00:14:28,395
But the reality is you have to teach them how to plan and execute a week's work based on yes, you're probably gonna be able to do it.
146
00:14:28,605 --> 00:14:28,825
So that's.
147
00:14:29,745 --> 00:14:30,795
First part is yes.
148
00:14:30,825 --> 00:14:33,435
Um, we need to look after that because that is a change.
149
00:14:34,155 --> 00:14:41,355
Um, upstream of that, when we talk about the, um, understanding if we can actually get stuff done, we act.
150
00:14:41,565 --> 00:14:50,535
Uh, CII put out a, a list of, um, 60 conditions that said, okay, when these conditions were in place, a WP works really well.
151
00:14:50,745 --> 00:15:02,085
And there's a whole bunch of things like, what does the schedule look like? Are you tracking progress? Um, uh, you know, uh, uh, when we, uh, develop a purchase order, do we have CWP in it? There's, there's a bunch of conditions.
152
00:15:02,805 --> 00:15:03,075
Mm-hmm.
153
00:15:03,076 --> 00:15:08,925
So, um, so ideally, of course, this is sort of like the health check before you get to that form and package.
154
00:15:09,255 --> 00:15:26,025
So ideally we are, uh, running an audit, if you like, on the process as it develops to see how aligned are we with best practices, because, uh, that tells you a lot more about the, our ability to build these packages than the actual package.
155
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:34,860
So, so there's, uh, there's a way to check that and a, a way to, if you like, um, drive that behavior within the organization.
156
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:46,320
And there's a way to, um, help the foreman, uh, adapt to this new, um, uh, environment of, uh, of um, uh, uh, plenty.
157
00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:59,040
And then just as a, um, I guess like as a wrap before we move on to the data center part, like to zoom up and say, okay, you talk to me as a project manager, I'm like, great, my foreman have what they need.
158
00:15:59,040 --> 00:15:59,850
I love that.
159
00:16:00,210 --> 00:16:05,670
And again, I don't wanna sound like a commercial for a WP, but I already, I went to one of your presentations, so I love it so much.
160
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:20,700
But, um, if I'm the project director, um, and I am trying to tell my stakeholders, uh, what's the ROI on this 'cause great foremans have what they need, whatever, they won't be second class citizens, that's fine.
161
00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:23,520
But like, let's break it down to the dollars here.
162
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,190
Like, I'm running a billion dollar project.
163
00:16:26,970 --> 00:16:42,510
What does this actually, how does this benefit to either the schedule, the, the, the cost and or the risk reduction? Like where do you, how do you get that ROI and make the case? So we, we struggle with a question for a long time.
164
00:16:43,140 --> 00:16:52,351
Um, uh, um, now we, um, uh, we have, um, about 10 years ago we started to apply that scorecard that I talked about with, uh, CII.
165
00:16:52,410 --> 00:16:54,810
Um, and at the same time we did tool time studies.
166
00:16:55,050 --> 00:17:07,350
So, uh, the, uh, benefit of that is, you see, okay, this is how aligned a project is with, uh, best practices, uh, based on the scorecard and, and the CII, uh, best practice list of best practices.
167
00:17:07,710 --> 00:17:13,050
And we go out in the tool in the field and we say, and this is how busy the workers are, right? Because we did a tool time study.
168
00:17:13,530 --> 00:17:20,770
Now, as you can imagine, there's a correlation between how organized the project is and how busy the workers are.
169
00:17:21,930 --> 00:17:48,030
Because I, and I think that's your question, um, is, Hey, what's the, what's the return on this? So the, the great thing about that is after you get a whole pile of those projects, and we have, uh, 70 of them, so we have 70 mega projects over the last 10 years, uh, from around the world, you get that pile of data, you can average, um, uh, the data to say, okay, so on average when a, a project is this much compliant with, uh, best practices, then their workers are gonna be this busy.
170
00:17:48,510 --> 00:17:54,930
And if they are this much compliant, if they're only 45% compliant, their bus, their workers are gonna be this busy.
171
00:17:55,650 --> 00:18:02,640
Once you have those points established, you can say, okay, this is how much it actually changes.
172
00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:05,910
So the answer is 22%.
173
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:14,730
So, so the workers, uh, so the difference between 45% compliant with best practices and 75% compliant.
174
00:18:14,730 --> 00:18:16,845
So it's not, you know, there's not perfect, but mm-hmm.
175
00:18:16,925 --> 00:18:17,790
That's the average.
176
00:18:18,630 --> 00:18:20,035
The difference is 22%.
177
00:18:21,285 --> 00:18:22,305
Busier workers.
178
00:18:23,025 --> 00:18:23,355
Wow.
179
00:18:23,775 --> 00:18:28,275
So, you know, in a rough translation, let's say that you get 20% more done every day.
180
00:18:29,805 --> 00:18:31,065
You know, just think about that.
181
00:18:31,065 --> 00:18:32,595
Across 5,000 workers.
182
00:18:33,165 --> 00:18:33,885
Yeah, yeah.
183
00:18:34,005 --> 00:18:34,965
Um, yeah.
184
00:18:34,965 --> 00:18:39,255
So it works out to about 10% of the total cost of the pro.
185
00:18:39,315 --> 00:18:43,305
Uh, the project is what's on the table, which is a, a crazy statement.
186
00:18:43,815 --> 00:18:47,475
You should not be able to move a billion dollar project, 10%.
187
00:18:48,495 --> 00:18:48,615
Right.
188
00:18:48,645 --> 00:18:50,325
But that's essentially what's on the table.
189
00:18:50,955 --> 00:18:55,905
And, you know, I think that won't be on the table forever, but it's on the table today.
190
00:18:55,965 --> 00:19:00,075
'cause what I've noticed is the stats are horrifying about project execution.
191
00:19:00,075 --> 00:19:08,565
One of the reasons that I was hoping to do this podcast was that I think our industry doesn't have great track records.
192
00:19:08,655 --> 00:19:18,195
Um, and I, I would love to see the world be able to create projects that aren't over budget and over, uh, schedule.
193
00:19:18,585 --> 00:19:19,275
All the time.
194
00:19:19,305 --> 00:19:24,165
It feels like people just assume like if I do a billion dollar project, it's gonna be late, it's gonna be a wreck.
195
00:19:24,195 --> 00:19:25,640
And um, we accept it.
196
00:19:25,995 --> 00:19:26,235
Yeah.
197
00:19:26,235 --> 00:19:27,315
We accept it as fact.
198
00:19:27,315 --> 00:19:34,035
And there are these things that I think we're progressing in our art form and eventually we're gonna crack the code.
199
00:19:34,035 --> 00:19:36,825
And this is like, I, I, this is a huge piece of it.
200
00:19:36,825 --> 00:19:47,745
So, um, well, you know, that, um, if nothing else, I would like to, um, uh, share with people the fact that today the reality is it's a choice.
201
00:19:47,925 --> 00:19:51,015
You have the choice to finish on time and on budget.
202
00:19:51,105 --> 00:19:54,075
Yeah, that's, that's a great way to say it.
203
00:19:54,075 --> 00:19:54,885
That's interesting.
204
00:19:55,245 --> 00:19:55,605
Okay.
205
00:19:55,605 --> 00:19:55,995
Alright.
206
00:19:55,995 --> 00:19:58,575
So I think we've talked about work packages.
207
00:19:58,635 --> 00:20:00,645
Uh, we've talked about advanced work packages.
208
00:20:00,825 --> 00:20:03,495
We didn't talk much about the Pepsi model versus the EPC model.
209
00:20:03,495 --> 00:20:08,385
We kind of dived into that of sort of the old versus the new, um, more of a holistic look.
210
00:20:08,715 --> 00:20:15,615
Can we switch a little bit right now, Jeff, and talk about data centers? So I know you're working in the space.
211
00:20:15,915 --> 00:20:17,035
Um, I think there's a.
212
00:20:17,835 --> 00:20:32,655
How many data centers do you remember are coming up over the next five years? This is in the U, this just the us uh, basically 2,700 mega projects before 2030.
213
00:20:33,045 --> 00:20:39,855
So you know, if each one of those is in the range of a hundred to 500 million, do the math on that and understand that.
214
00:20:40,005 --> 00:20:40,365
Yeah.
215
00:20:41,115 --> 00:20:42,315
It's basically a gold rush.
216
00:20:43,335 --> 00:20:43,695
Yeah.
217
00:20:44,580 --> 00:20:47,340
For the owners that are building those data centers.
218
00:20:47,340 --> 00:21:08,160
It's also a landmine where, well, I think a couple things, like you and I are in this space of mega project Buildouts, and I, I liken it to like ship captains where uh, once I was on a cruise ship and the Mediterranean, I'm originally from Alaska and I got to meet the captain and he was like, oh yeah, I worked in Alaska, I did the, you know, blah, blah.
219
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,520
And I realized that the ship captain world is actually really small.
220
00:21:11,790 --> 00:21:13,350
Like they all know each other.
221
00:21:13,350 --> 00:21:17,310
It's a space, even though it's a worldwide thing, it's actually a very small art.
222
00:21:18,270 --> 00:21:21,660
And, um, I think that our space is like that as well.
223
00:21:21,870 --> 00:21:32,580
So when you say all of a sudden, hey, we're gonna build 3000 data centers, it's like, well, what per, who's gonna be the, you know, project director of those 3000 project directors? We don't have that many people.
224
00:21:33,420 --> 00:21:37,290
Obviously we're gonna have to bring 'em up through the universities, but in five years and so.
225
00:21:37,380 --> 00:21:54,690
I guess the other part of that that, that I think is interesting is we need repeatable successful things like a WP and products that make sense or productize service offerings that make sense to like execute on that work at scale, like in a thoughtful way.
226
00:21:54,930 --> 00:22:02,610
Um, so anyway, uh, that's, um, yeah, I think that's one of the big challenges of putting together 3000 data centers right now.
227
00:22:02,970 --> 00:22:03,150
Yep.
228
00:22:03,660 --> 00:22:06,210
And that's, that's a great foundation for this conversation.
229
00:22:06,930 --> 00:22:17,670
Um, I should start by saying, you know, we, we'll have to do this again in 2030 and, and we'll have a laugh at what we're talking about right now 'cause I'm sure it'll be wildly different answer.
230
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:18,570
Yeah.
231
00:22:18,570 --> 00:22:23,310
We went from Pepsi model to EPC to ai, just does everything model in 2030.
232
00:22:24,450 --> 00:22:24,720
Yeah.
233
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:25,170
Right.
234
00:22:26,190 --> 00:22:37,170
Um, so importantly, um, you know, the foundations of a WP are still present, you know, if we want to get it done, we need to get back to, you know, every time we send a foreman into the field, they have to have a package.
235
00:22:38,190 --> 00:22:40,530
Um, and so that doesn't change.
236
00:22:40,830 --> 00:22:43,920
Now, if we wanna get done, we want to do things productively.
237
00:22:44,190 --> 00:22:46,740
That's our, that's our stake in the ground.
238
00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:53,820
So the, the big thing about the Pepsi model, um, so maybe we should just talk that through, I guess for listeners.
239
00:22:54,480 --> 00:23:02,880
You know, that we, uh, in a typical environment, we engineer it and then we say, okay, if we're gonna, if we needle, if we're gonna build it this way, we're gonna needle this equipment.
240
00:23:02,940 --> 00:23:05,640
And then we go ahead and, and construct it.
241
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:06,930
So we put all the parts together.
242
00:23:08,310 --> 00:23:18,270
What's happening in the data center world, um, is that there is the, uh, a major, um, gold rush for equipment.
243
00:23:18,930 --> 00:23:39,750
So rather than being able to say, okay, this is what I want, and then going out into the market to find it, you need to go out into the market and figure out what can I buy or what's available, and use a combination of that answer to come up with what your capacity or the capacity you're trying to achieve, and then you design around what you could procure.
244
00:23:40,260 --> 00:23:47,910
So that's the procurement, engineering, planning, construction, uh, initiate model, which is the Pepsi model.
245
00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:52,320
So that, um, makes things different for us.
246
00:23:52,440 --> 00:24:01,860
Um, so, uh, of course, um, and, uh, it's a strange space for engineering to not be able to just say, this is what I want, therefore go buy it.
247
00:24:02,460 --> 00:24:11,010
Um, uh, uh, it's uh, basically, um, uh, if you like an agile engineering space where you say, okay, you can't have one of these.
248
00:24:11,010 --> 00:24:16,020
You can have to have two of these and one of those and maybe use this one to, uh, patch that one together.
249
00:24:16,620 --> 00:24:27,030
Um, and, uh, and then you have to design around that complicated by, uh, technology, which is changing every six months.
250
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:35,850
So, um, you know that as much as we want to build something and have it operate for the next 50 years, our data centers will not do that.
251
00:24:36,705 --> 00:24:41,475
They, the technology is gonna change every, you know, every year, if not six months.
252
00:24:41,865 --> 00:24:42,255
Yeah.
253
00:24:42,255 --> 00:24:47,955
So basically everything we build has to be modularized so it can be pulled out and the new stuff put in.
254
00:24:48,585 --> 00:25:02,595
Um, so, you know, the, the complication of designing something that is both, uh, renewable if you like, and, um, and, uh, made up of, uh, of a combination of parts is the challenge that we've got right now.
255
00:25:03,585 --> 00:25:08,415
Um, so anyway, um, they, they're the, the foundational challenge challenges for our data centers.
256
00:25:09,045 --> 00:25:12,615
However, you know, people aren't doing that and they're being successful.
257
00:25:13,065 --> 00:25:28,500
Um, so, um, so it's just a, a different way of looking at how do we, how do we make this happen? Of course, uh, you know, some of the, the big players are actually going further upstream to buy the manufacturing, uh, uh, capacity of, of, uh, of the industry.
258
00:25:29,010 --> 00:25:34,470
Um, you know, we hear about, uh, car manufacturers buying lithium mines the same.
259
00:25:34,470 --> 00:25:34,620
Yeah.
260
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,140
They're trying to control their own, uh, supply chain.
261
00:25:38,370 --> 00:25:39,750
Yeah, absolutely.
262
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,590
Um, yeah, the lithium race is gonna, is really interesting actually.
263
00:25:43,650 --> 00:25:45,450
Uh, the lithium mining battle.
264
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,020
Uh, I think we're gonna have somebody on who did a bit of a deep dive on that.
265
00:25:49,020 --> 00:25:57,150
Who is, who is a major project, uh, James Wiseman, who worked on, who's gone deep on the lithium rabbit hole, which we really interesting chat.
266
00:25:57,630 --> 00:26:01,230
Um, so, okay, here's a question I have for you on this.
267
00:26:01,260 --> 00:26:06,870
'cause like you're saying, data centers are very different and procurement's very different now in the space.
268
00:26:07,740 --> 00:26:15,720
You've been working on several of these data, these large data center buildouts, and I'm curious about the owners because.
269
00:26:16,365 --> 00:26:32,145
They're techies, which is kind of a first in our industry in many ways, where, um, a lot of major projects in the past maybe were like government politicians or oil and gas executives, um, maybe a, a mining company executive, something like that.
270
00:26:32,145 --> 00:26:36,135
And I think their minds work very different than say Mark Zuckerberg.
271
00:26:36,135 --> 00:26:39,465
He's like, Hey, I'm gonna build 50 data centers.
272
00:26:39,705 --> 00:26:42,615
And when you report to him and you say, Hey, this is how we do it.
273
00:26:42,975 --> 00:26:57,525
He's been building Facebook investing billions, building a software package using agile methodology, completely flipping the PM space on its head and is been working for him and other, like, large, uh, tech companies.
274
00:26:57,525 --> 00:27:06,855
So I'm curious if you've seen that sort of play out in the way that these projects, the expectations of these projects, like how you, uh, work with those owners.
275
00:27:06,855 --> 00:27:14,715
I guess maybe you could just talk a little bit about, um, sort of how those people are, how to interact with these new types of.
276
00:27:15,945 --> 00:27:18,585
In the major project space? Yeah.
277
00:27:18,585 --> 00:27:22,395
So, um, we've had a couple of, uh, tough conversations around that.
278
00:27:22,395 --> 00:27:30,345
So, um, one of the, um, uh, before data centers we were involved in, uh, uh, helping with construction of some automated warehouses.
279
00:27:30,585 --> 00:27:34,785
So, um, you use AM Amazon as an example, but there's lots of others out there.
280
00:27:34,875 --> 00:27:45,885
Um, so, you know, they, they basically tried to build a total automation, um, uh, warehouse so that, uh, people aren't picking parts, uh, that it's totally automated.
281
00:27:46,215 --> 00:27:50,745
So that is a, a high tech, uh, data centric, um, uh, environment.
282
00:27:51,375 --> 00:27:54,885
Um, the problem is those guys have no idea how to build that.
283
00:27:55,365 --> 00:28:00,285
So when we went to them and said, I know you guys are in the business of data, but you suck at building.
284
00:28:01,110 --> 00:28:06,960
Because you, you can't figure out how to manage your data to tell you what you can build and, and actually get it built.
285
00:28:07,380 --> 00:28:07,740
Yeah.
286
00:28:08,370 --> 00:28:11,100
They have a very low tolerance for being told that they suck at data.
287
00:28:11,670 --> 00:28:11,880
Right.
288
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:29,580
So, but essentially, you know, that, um, they need to understand the construction model to understand that it, it, it needs data and it needs, but it, of course, the, the true, and we're learning this with ai, the true understanding or the true value of data is understanding what to do with it or how to use it.
289
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,330
You can't just have this huge swamp of data and say, okay, we've got it.
290
00:28:33,810 --> 00:28:41,790
Uh, you have to understand what, um, you know, how do we draw from that to understand, you know, what we can do, what we can't do, what we should do, what we should be focused on.
291
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:50,250
Um, so, uh, so, um, for the data center guys right now, you can imagine going to Google and telling them that they suck at data, right? Yeah.
292
00:28:50,610 --> 00:28:52,410
But they do, 'cause they dunno what to do with it.
293
00:28:52,740 --> 00:28:58,110
They, they need to understand that Pepsi model, but also the execution of construction model.
294
00:28:58,590 --> 00:29:03,180
And that is coming all the way back to project management as a profession.
295
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,150
This is where project management is so important.
296
00:29:06,150 --> 00:29:30,240
'cause project management is a, a unique profession and you, we need people that understand how to execute projects, um, in order to, uh, completely be on top of this whole model of, you know, where do I get data, how do I use it? Um, how do we stay on top of that? So yes, it's a, a unique conversation, but of course the smart guys, smart people know what they don't know.
297
00:29:31,380 --> 00:29:37,830
And of course, you know, that, uh, you know, Google and Matter and Microsoft and, you know, those guys are really good at what they do.
298
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,980
Uh, building their infrastructure is not part of that.
299
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:53,610
Yeah, I think, um, uh, so I, I have a lot of experience where I bring in people with sort of compsci degrees, teach them data analytics, and then we apply them to the project space.
300
00:29:53,790 --> 00:30:03,990
Whereas a lot of people that are doing reporting and stuff, they come from the project space, then they learn some of the techniques of data science through the job, like on the job training.
301
00:30:03,990 --> 00:30:09,810
And I've noticed that, um, you know, the way I do it, I like it 'cause I get, um, more, more of the technical talent.
302
00:30:10,170 --> 00:30:36,630
Um, there's pros and cons to both, but one thing that's interesting is when you take someone that's really, really super smart, has gone through a COMPSCI program, gets data modeling, uh, it takes several years, it takes a lot of training to get them to get their heads around project controls, you know, uh, how the data works, the, you know, the, because there's these, these complicated concepts.
303
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:41,730
And really, I think for me at least one of the clicking moments is like, you're, you're really taking.
304
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:51,450
You're comparing sets of data from one to the next oftentimes and looking for deviations between, which is a very different way of processing data.
305
00:30:51,455 --> 00:30:55,890
And, and it's an area that they don't really teach in Compsci school very much.
306
00:30:55,890 --> 00:31:08,700
Like they'll teach you about data structures, but there's not like a class on like differential reporting for, you know, advanced data structures or something, which is really where our, I think our art is, um, struggling.
307
00:31:08,730 --> 00:31:09,030
Yes.
308
00:31:09,035 --> 00:31:10,200
Uh, uh, a hundred percent.
309
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:19,350
Um, you know, we, we have, uh, great success when we have, um, our data scientists paired with our grizzly old construction guy.
310
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:46,560
He says, you know, the, the question is, and we pose this to project managers all the time, what do you need to know? And of course, you know, if they just start with, okay, I want to know how many of these I've got, or I wanna know, you know, what we need next month, or I know I want to know how many people we should have, or I wanna know how many work fronts are open, or any anything, you know, then the data scientists can go to go ahead and say, okay, I've probably got that data.
311
00:31:46,590 --> 00:31:47,880
Let me, let me try that.
312
00:31:48,090 --> 00:31:48,270
Right.
313
00:31:48,750 --> 00:31:49,380
Uh, but yeah.
314
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,420
Um, they are two unique skill sets.
315
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:59,430
Um, and, uh, yeah, ideally you bring them together in order to build, uh, consumable data, we call it, you know? Yeah.
316
00:31:59,550 --> 00:32:01,590
Which is actually how every app on your phone works.
317
00:32:01,590 --> 00:32:01,680
Right.
318
00:32:01,890 --> 00:32:07,590
You know, every app on your phone is, is, is, you know, made to, uh, be consumable.
319
00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:09,090
But yes, it's a challenge.
320
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:10,500
Okay.
321
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:13,890
So drawing us back to data centers, I think we walked a little bit away from that.
322
00:32:13,890 --> 00:32:16,530
And, um, just wanna get you back on there.
323
00:32:16,860 --> 00:32:19,530
Uh, let's say I am gonna build a data center.
324
00:32:19,620 --> 00:32:25,800
I've got, I'm a, um, we're in sort of pre FID we're doing some evaluation work.
325
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:33,030
Like, what would you say, uh, like if you're listening to this podcast, you're like, I'm gonna be one of those people that builds 5,000 data centers.
326
00:32:33,030 --> 00:32:33,690
I've got one.
327
00:32:34,020 --> 00:32:39,300
Uh, what advice would you give this person? Maybe they just accepted the role of project director.
328
00:32:39,660 --> 00:32:48,150
Um, what is, what, what would Jeff say they should do? What's their to-do list, perhaps? Um, I guess it's, first of all to understand the problem.
329
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,350
So to understand the Pepsi model or why you would even, uh, consider that.
330
00:32:52,860 --> 00:32:56,670
Um, uh, and then of course to find, you know, uh, the other.
331
00:32:57,830 --> 00:33:07,845
A couple of big problems that we've got in the industry is that, you know, we haven't done this before or we've, we've got a very shallow pool of people that have done it before and they haven't done it very well.
332
00:33:08,145 --> 00:33:12,525
So, you know that basically let's just start with a blank page and say, nobody knows how to do this.
333
00:33:13,035 --> 00:33:13,275
Right.
334
00:33:13,275 --> 00:33:20,865
So, you know, that's probably a good place for a director to start and say, okay, so what we need is we don't need people to come up and say, Hey, I've done this before.
335
00:33:20,865 --> 00:33:21,705
You're in good hands.
336
00:33:22,065 --> 00:33:25,905
We need people who are flexible to say, you know what, I, you know, I'm with you.
337
00:33:25,905 --> 00:33:26,865
I'm gonna figure it out.
338
00:33:27,075 --> 00:33:29,025
Alright, let's, let's see if we can get this together.
339
00:33:29,055 --> 00:33:33,075
So, and you need an engineering company that will do that, um, but also procurement.
340
00:33:33,890 --> 00:33:41,930
That procurement, this is totally different for procurement, right? And that, you know, you don't go to a procurement guy and say, um, go out there and see what you can find.
341
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:49,970
Right? You, you give them a specific list of what you want and they, they put that out to a whole bunch of different vendors and they get answers and they pass on the answers.
342
00:33:50,270 --> 00:33:54,980
Well, now we're asking them to be inventive and, and and resourceful.
343
00:33:55,460 --> 00:34:01,940
Um, and of course, doing that globally, one of the other problems that we, uh, we have is this whole imperial metric thing.
344
00:34:02,690 --> 00:34:09,830
So, you know that when you're sourcing things from around the globe, well, you gotta gotta know that, uh, you know, that we, we use in imperial.
345
00:34:11,205 --> 00:34:12,405
Uh, system here.
346
00:34:12,705 --> 00:34:17,385
So, you know, that, uh, understanding or getting procurement people that understand that.
347
00:34:17,805 --> 00:34:23,085
And then of course you've got the complication of shipping and, and manufacturing and, and things that are on top of that.
348
00:34:23,415 --> 00:34:26,325
But, so we need procurement folks that are flexible.
349
00:34:26,625 --> 00:34:35,895
Uh, we need engineering that is okay with the idea that they're gonna work hand in hand with procurement till they can find a combination of, of equipment that they can use.
350
00:34:36,495 --> 00:34:44,565
And, uh, of course, you know, then they're going to, um, they're probably gonna have a pile of problems going forward to solve as well that are unique and different.
351
00:34:45,585 --> 00:34:53,685
But ultimately it's a flexible engineering, uh, uh, procurement that are flexible and that are, um, uh, innovative.
352
00:34:54,765 --> 00:35:10,875
And then of course, you, um, your construction, you need your construction team in early because they're going to, you know, if you, um, roll this out to a construction team and you say, okay, we want to put in, you know, put in a unit, we're gonna have all this infrastructure around it, we're going to run cable to it, and we're gonna run air conditioning and cooling and things.
353
00:35:11,445 --> 00:35:13,215
Um, how do you want to do that? Mm-hmm.
354
00:35:13,425 --> 00:35:34,425
And of course, um, ideally, uh, procurement and engineering are listening to that and, uh, they're, they're, we're building a schedule based on, on, uh, the combination of what can you get your hands on, how long is it gonna take to design it? And of course, what sequence would we like to build it in? So, uh, they are, that's a different way of approaching a project for a project director.
355
00:35:34,605 --> 00:35:36,765
So hopefully, I I answered your question there.
356
00:35:37,155 --> 00:35:43,575
You know, that, um, I, I think, um, yeah, for a project director first, understand that nobody's done this before.
357
00:35:45,255 --> 00:35:50,685
But, um, uh, we know that to be productive, we have to have installation work packages.
358
00:35:50,805 --> 00:35:56,025
And the way to get there is to understand, you know, what we should get and what we, uh, how we should sequence that.
359
00:35:57,015 --> 00:36:05,655
Um, also one of the other, uh, big influences, which is true today as well in, in normal projects is that the procurement is gonna drive the schedule.
360
00:36:05,925 --> 00:36:18,195
Now that's the foundation is when can I have this stuff? Okay? We're gonna build the schedule around when that, when that gets here, uh, and then of course have a a, um, if you like, a fanatical focus on holding those dates.
361
00:36:19,095 --> 00:36:20,115
Flying over there.
362
00:36:20,205 --> 00:36:30,525
Have a look at the production facility, see your piece of equipment being built, you know, be confident that it's, you know, it's, it's, um, it's, uh, there on the shop floor.
363
00:36:30,525 --> 00:36:31,740
Yeah, on the shop floor.
364
00:36:31,740 --> 00:36:31,980
Yeah.
365
00:36:32,490 --> 00:36:32,780
Yeah.
366
00:36:33,015 --> 00:36:38,325
You know, we, we, we've seen instances where it gets, uh, built and then it goes out to the highest bidder.
367
00:36:39,045 --> 00:36:39,255
Right.
368
00:36:39,255 --> 00:36:40,125
So, yeah.
369
00:36:40,125 --> 00:36:43,455
So you'll put it at the back of the line again because you, uh, you weren't in that race.
370
00:36:43,545 --> 00:36:57,195
So, you know, you, you, you need, um, uh, contracts that, that, um, of course, uh, support that, you know, the, the, the idea of, uh, lump sum, it's probably, um, not gonna be present for a while.
371
00:36:57,645 --> 00:36:58,815
Nobody knows how to do this.
372
00:36:58,815 --> 00:37:01,275
Nobody knows how much it's gonna cost or how long it's gonna take.
373
00:37:01,785 --> 00:37:03,915
Um, so, uh.
374
00:37:04,695 --> 00:37:09,525
Trying to absolve risk by having a lump sum contract in that space is not gonna work.
375
00:37:10,005 --> 00:37:15,855
Uh, this is gonna be about flexibility and maybe the emergence of true project management.
376
00:37:16,005 --> 00:37:18,855
What do you see as true project management? Tell me, tell me that.
377
00:37:20,715 --> 00:37:23,175
Well, uh, understanding that it's a unique discipline.
378
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:24,015
Mm mm-hmm.
379
00:37:24,315 --> 00:37:26,115
This is not a function of engineering.
380
00:37:26,385 --> 00:37:28,365
Uh, this is a unique discipline.
381
00:37:28,755 --> 00:37:37,425
I actually think that, uh, in the future we will have, you know, potentially, uh, uh, a separate company, be the project managers, and we, we've got examples of this.
382
00:37:37,425 --> 00:37:37,515
Yeah.
383
00:37:38,565 --> 00:37:42,015
Um, um, so they don't really have a vested interest in EP or C.
384
00:37:42,975 --> 00:37:46,095
Their job is to conduct the, conduct, the orchestra.
385
00:37:47,385 --> 00:37:50,265
There's a book I read a long time ago, I don't remember the author.
386
00:37:50,265 --> 00:37:52,815
It was called Bare Knuckle Project Management.
387
00:37:53,685 --> 00:37:56,235
And the, the theory behind it.
388
00:37:56,730 --> 00:38:02,820
Was, um, that, that you and I, I tell this to my PMs, but it's like you, you're the project advocate.
389
00:38:03,150 --> 00:38:14,940
So I always say like there's, you know, there's the, there's different stakeholders, but there has to be one person whose only interest is the project itself, and you are the project advocate.
390
00:38:15,030 --> 00:38:26,610
And so if that means like you're, you know, you're, you're just sort of this independent third party that's dispassionately giving people the news and advocating for the project, whatever that might mean.
391
00:38:26,610 --> 00:38:31,980
Whether it's, Hey, you're, you're the wrong owner for this project, you need to get off it, whatever.
392
00:38:31,980 --> 00:38:39,090
Just being able to say some of the things that you would never be able to say if your, um, yeah, if your incentives aren't aligned properly.
393
00:38:39,090 --> 00:38:39,750
So I agree with you.
394
00:38:39,750 --> 00:38:40,320
I think that.
395
00:38:40,830 --> 00:38:57,300
The, the, the further you can get into that independence space, even if you aren't technically independent, if you can find a way to get your reputation up as a person that's sort of trustable, that can give that kind of news that, um, that can make a huge difference in, in your project.
396
00:38:57,750 --> 00:38:57,960
Yep.
397
00:38:58,590 --> 00:38:58,890
Yeah.
398
00:38:58,890 --> 00:39:01,860
So we do see a lot of owners, uh, step into that space.
399
00:39:02,250 --> 00:39:18,810
Um, but you know, that, uh, the, the smart ones or the mature, uh, owners understand that, um, that's not something that we can put your existing team on, that you need to go out and hire project management skills and, and, uh, build a project management department.
400
00:39:19,110 --> 00:39:25,170
But, uh, I know you and I talked quickly about my house build before we got started here, so that's a great example.
401
00:39:25,170 --> 00:39:26,310
You know, it's my money.
402
00:39:26,745 --> 00:39:28,740
I'm gonna live in that house, you know? Yeah.
403
00:39:28,905 --> 00:39:30,615
I want it to be built the right way.
404
00:39:30,615 --> 00:39:33,255
I don't want, you know, I want it to get in there as soon as I can.
405
00:39:33,465 --> 00:39:37,425
I don't wanna spend too much money doing it, but, you know, and I'm fanatical about quality.
406
00:39:37,785 --> 00:39:44,325
Well, you know, that, um, I don't have a dog in any of those hunts, except that I want the whole thing to, to work for me.
407
00:39:44,565 --> 00:39:51,765
So, yes, it's, um, a good example of, uh, uh, overall or if you like, third party, um, project management.
408
00:39:52,425 --> 00:39:52,815
Yeah.
409
00:39:53,445 --> 00:39:57,765
Well, okay, so that's sort of like the advice for a new project manager.
410
00:39:57,945 --> 00:40:18,135
Do you have any stories from some of your data center work so far that might be some challenges that you might've overcome or anything that, you know, could help us prepare for the journey? Um, so one of the things that I talked, um, briefly about was the, um, uh, the, the shallow pool of knowledge, but there's also the shallow pool of experience and skills.
411
00:40:18,705 --> 00:40:22,875
Um, and, uh, a simple example of that is electricians, you know, that.
412
00:40:23,955 --> 00:40:27,285
Most often when we think we have an electrician, we think we've got an electrician.
413
00:40:27,525 --> 00:40:29,865
Well, in the data center world, that's not true.
414
00:40:29,865 --> 00:40:29,955
Mm-hmm.
415
00:40:30,315 --> 00:40:35,535
Because there's high voltage and there's connecting, um, uh, light bulbs.
416
00:40:35,955 --> 00:40:47,805
Um, so they are two separate professions and the electricians will tell you that, um, in the world of data centers, we need a whole pile of high voltage people, um, because that's where all of the work is.
417
00:40:48,165 --> 00:40:56,925
And, um, when you put low voltage people working on high voltage, um, um, uh, processes, you have a lot of problems.
418
00:40:57,405 --> 00:41:03,885
Um, simple things that are, um, uh, really, really dangerous if you don't get them right.
419
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,710
Um, so, uh, so anyway, that's a, that's a huge problem for us.
420
00:41:07,710 --> 00:41:16,230
I think we need to, uh, recognize that, that, um, we need a lot more training on, on safety, um, when it comes to hooking up high voltage.
421
00:41:16,710 --> 00:41:22,650
Um, and, um, we need to have a, um, um, you know, just a, a general, um, awareness of that.
422
00:41:23,010 --> 00:41:26,700
So, uh, of course, uh, that comes from, uh, quality control.
423
00:41:26,970 --> 00:41:35,640
So one of the problems of course we have is time to market is the driver, you know, we are fanatical about getting to market.
424
00:41:36,030 --> 00:41:36,120
Mm-hmm.
425
00:41:37,050 --> 00:41:41,970
We must make sure that that does not impinge upon quality and safety.
426
00:41:42,450 --> 00:41:49,350
Um, you know, one of the foundations I was taught as a tradesperson was the quickest way to build anything is to build it once.
427
00:41:51,060 --> 00:41:53,430
So that's a really great saying.
428
00:41:54,090 --> 00:41:55,140
It's very simple.
429
00:41:56,100 --> 00:41:59,070
So even if you take your time and you get it right, that's a quick way.
430
00:41:59,580 --> 00:42:03,270
Right? And we need to, we need to understand that and, and apply it.
431
00:42:03,810 --> 00:42:05,040
Um, yeah.
432
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,650
Quality testing is, is ultra important.
433
00:42:07,890 --> 00:42:19,890
So the other thing, of course, in data centers is that they have a very low tolerance for problems, um, when they're operational, um, because they, they need a, a 99.99%
434
00:42:19,890 --> 00:42:24,420
up uptime, right? So, uh, quality is all important.
435
00:42:24,420 --> 00:42:29,910
Redundancy, of course, as you're, uh, uh, designing it to make sure that you have a bit of, um, a cushion there.
436
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,780
So there are a couple of the pro little problems is, is skillsets.
437
00:42:34,260 --> 00:42:51,360
Uh, but of course as we, we talked about, you know, the whole idea of being flexible, um, and sort of, uh, agile is a good word, you know, agile and being, being, um, uh, uh, adapting to, to today's problems, uh, will have to be a skill set for engineering and procurement.
438
00:42:52,605 --> 00:43:08,085
Where do you think it intersects with, like, say you're building a data center for Google? Um, there's also, like there you said there's the electricians, but then there's also sort of the actual engineers that are building out the machines and they have specialty hardware as well.
439
00:43:08,085 --> 00:43:20,445
And does that fit into your work packages at this point? Or you just like, we're just gonna build the server racks and then you throw in whatever you want? We're gonna make the facility and then we don't care what happens inside of it.
440
00:43:20,475 --> 00:43:21,885
We'll give you this much power.
441
00:43:22,065 --> 00:43:23,925
We'll have the data wires and that's it.
442
00:43:23,925 --> 00:43:29,355
And then the, the owners come in and do their own thing because those change out so much.
443
00:43:29,355 --> 00:43:32,535
Like how does that work? So a lot of that is true.
444
00:43:32,805 --> 00:43:38,205
Um, uh, the owner loves, loves, like to have that, uh, that finishing touch, if you like, on a data center.
445
00:43:38,205 --> 00:43:40,725
And, and we certainly see that for good reason.
446
00:43:41,205 --> 00:43:47,385
Um, but the, uh, even the infrastructure is tr changing, you know, that we look at, um, uh, uh, cooling.
447
00:43:47,685 --> 00:43:49,455
Cooling is a great big issue of course.
448
00:43:49,725 --> 00:43:55,095
So, you know, we used to call with air, then we used to call with water, uh, now we call with submersion.
449
00:43:55,335 --> 00:44:01,935
Um, and uh, of course they are three different buildings, right? So you can't just switch one out for the other there.
450
00:44:01,935 --> 00:44:03,435
That is a different design.
451
00:44:03,915 --> 00:44:04,065
Yeah.
452
00:44:04,335 --> 00:44:17,715
So I'm not sure where the next one's going, but, um, you know, the, um, you know, even when we look at the, um, the design of the infrastructure, we need to be flexible to know that, um, we've already gone through that transition.
453
00:44:18,105 --> 00:44:23,745
Um, and, uh, we'll probably have other, um, uh, transitions that we go through there.
454
00:44:23,985 --> 00:44:26,180
So it needs to be flexible, it needs to be modularized.
455
00:44:28,005 --> 00:44:28,455
But yes.
456
00:44:28,455 --> 00:44:38,205
Um, having the owner, uh, do the final, um, uh, connection and, and configuration is, um, a really good idea because that's where they do have expertise.
457
00:44:39,615 --> 00:44:49,665
Well, so let's, okay, so I've been talking a lot about the owner and the folks actually building data centers, and I think what we're saying here is, you know, there's, there's real constraints right now.
458
00:44:49,665 --> 00:44:55,305
Over the next five years, 3000 data centers ish are gonna be built and procurement's a major issue.
459
00:44:55,305 --> 00:44:56,865
You've got people issues.
460
00:44:57,195 --> 00:44:59,835
Um, you know, it's, it's gonna be a really fun space.
461
00:44:59,835 --> 00:45:05,025
I think a lot of people that like challenges go into the project controls project management world.
462
00:45:05,295 --> 00:45:08,565
Um, so obviously we need a lot of people.
463
00:45:09,345 --> 00:45:12,735
Now let's flip this around and talk about like, I'm a university student.
464
00:45:12,735 --> 00:45:14,055
I'm listening to this podcast.
465
00:45:14,115 --> 00:45:19,755
Uh, I am excited about data centers, or I'm excited about, um, advanced work packages.
466
00:45:19,785 --> 00:45:24,975
How do I like, those two things are almost separate tracks, but how would you advise someone.
467
00:45:25,575 --> 00:45:28,935
Um, that's a student that wants to go into this as a career.
468
00:45:28,995 --> 00:45:36,165
Like where would they start? So, uh, interestingly, there are piles of data center conferences going on right now.
469
00:45:36,795 --> 00:45:48,675
Uh, so my advice would be to take your resume and go to one, uh, or go to me, go to several, uh, because the industry is hungry for people, uh, that, that are just interested in going here.
470
00:45:49,155 --> 00:45:51,255
You don't have to show up and say, I have done this before.
471
00:45:51,255 --> 00:45:52,605
You're just like, Hey, I'm flexible.
472
00:45:53,055 --> 00:45:53,145
Mm-hmm.
473
00:45:53,385 --> 00:45:53,835
I wanna learn.
474
00:45:53,955 --> 00:45:56,175
And, uh, I think this is a great place to be.
475
00:45:56,745 --> 00:45:59,745
Um, and, uh, so that, that would be the start.
476
00:45:59,745 --> 00:46:05,385
And, and we've seen that at conferences before and we, we actually have some people working with us now that we found that way.
477
00:46:05,775 --> 00:46:07,755
Right? They, they came to us, which is awesome.
478
00:46:08,175 --> 00:46:10,575
Um, so that would be an easy way to, to get in there.
479
00:46:10,875 --> 00:46:20,625
But also, um, you know, the, uh, a lot of the stuff that we know and a lot of the skills that we already have, uh, near and dear to the solution, um, that we're going to find here.
480
00:46:20,625 --> 00:46:22,215
And that is data management.
481
00:46:22,890 --> 00:46:34,500
You know that ultimately, um, and especially when you talk about project controls, you know that, um, there's a great, um, project management expression that says, um, if you measure it, you manage it.
482
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,890
So, which is project controls 1 0 1.
483
00:46:38,220 --> 00:46:44,700
Um, so, um, you know, understanding how to measure it is, is one of our other challenges.
484
00:46:45,150 --> 00:46:52,290
You know, um, how, um, you know, what percentage complete are we when we finish procurement? You know, that might be the hardest part.
485
00:46:52,290 --> 00:47:09,030
So we, we could maybe count that as half done, you know, so, but understanding what that equation is and how to gauge, uh, the level of effort required and the level of, uh, time, uh, uh, required is, is going to be an evolving skillset.
486
00:47:09,695 --> 00:47:13,025
Um, um, but ultimately we do have to learn how to measure it.
487
00:47:13,205 --> 00:47:29,405
Um, so, um, in the product controls world, um, understanding how to measure, you know, procurement against engineering, and of course, you know, construction is actually physical construction, so that's much easier to understand, uh, how much we've got done, how much there is left.
488
00:47:29,885 --> 00:47:32,105
Um, but uh, we have to start measuring.
489
00:47:32,165 --> 00:47:41,465
And of course I would encourage, um, the industry to share that, you know, we always, we, we've always done this and kept those cards really close to our chest.
490
00:47:41,615 --> 00:47:43,745
'cause we think that it's competitive advantage.
491
00:47:44,165 --> 00:47:51,995
Well, advanced work packaging is an example of collaboration in the industry, and I promise you we all have the same problems.
492
00:47:52,535 --> 00:47:52,625
Mm-hmm.
493
00:47:52,865 --> 00:47:56,525
And collectively we know the answers, but individually we don't.
494
00:47:57,185 --> 00:47:59,825
Um, and, you know, one of the things that we have as.
495
00:48:00,810 --> 00:48:07,860
Mankind is his ability to share and discuss and, and, and, and explore answers.
496
00:48:08,340 --> 00:48:18,630
So, uh, make use of that and, um, and, and go to these conferences, present your findings, talk to other people, um, and, and we'll get better and better at this.
497
00:48:19,170 --> 00:48:25,770
Um, and of course, you know, it's not about having data that somebody else doesn't have, that's not gonna give you an advantage.
498
00:48:26,220 --> 00:48:33,180
Um, what's going to give you an advantage is that you're really good at it, at understanding what needs to get done and when it needs to get done.
499
00:48:33,180 --> 00:48:40,620
And, uh, that you can create a predictable outcome, uh, based on that agility, which doesn't sound right.
500
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:51,960
Yeah, I mean, I like to liken it to, you know, how there's like, uh, if you're installing a program and the little bar goes like, right, it's like installing, so like.
501
00:48:52,605 --> 00:49:03,105
The goal is if you are a user and you look at that and it goes, and then it goes backwards, you're like, what is going on? Right? It would be super frustrating.
502
00:49:03,105 --> 00:49:10,065
And then also, and so that's like, that's where you get screwed up, where you're measuring progress, and then progress goes in reverse.
503
00:49:10,365 --> 00:49:14,265
The people looking at that status bar at a high level, it's really upsetting.
504
00:49:14,355 --> 00:49:22,725
So like, I think one, one goal when you're measuring is to say, okay, are you measuring reality or not? Because they're looking at a progress bar for their install.
505
00:49:22,785 --> 00:49:27,975
And then the other thing that I think happens is, and you see this with programs, it goes, do, do, do, do, do.
506
00:49:28,605 --> 00:49:30,195
And it gets to 99%.
507
00:49:30,735 --> 00:49:36,075
And then you're just sitting there and you're like, uh, I thought, I thought this program was installed.
508
00:49:36,555 --> 00:49:38,655
And it's just like, no, we're 99% friends.
509
00:49:38,715 --> 00:49:39,345
It's good.
510
00:49:39,555 --> 00:49:40,725
And, but it's not good.
511
00:49:40,725 --> 00:49:50,805
And in fact, that 99% how long it sits there, oftentimes, you know, there's like a, there's a threshold where you're like, I can take a little bit, but if it's gonna go for too long.
512
00:49:51,165 --> 00:49:51,945
We have a problem.
513
00:49:51,945 --> 00:49:59,385
And I think that can also happen with projects where it's like you want a smooth progression where you start at zero and you end at a hundred.
514
00:49:59,385 --> 00:50:08,775
And the rate of, of that progress or bar is, is, is, is true to the reality of the actual project itself.
515
00:50:09,015 --> 00:50:12,615
So if you say it's 99%, it should be 99% not 82.
516
00:50:13,845 --> 00:50:16,035
And so that, I think that's part of the art.
517
00:50:16,035 --> 00:50:29,025
I'm, I'm sort of simplifying it I think in many, many ways, but to me that's the art of like the data and the, the sort of measurement that you're talking about is getting that accurate progress bar going.
518
00:50:29,355 --> 00:50:29,715
Yeah.
519
00:50:29,955 --> 00:50:33,705
Uh, it's a, a status that we call done but done.
520
00:50:33,705 --> 00:50:38,415
But I need to get you on to just give us all the phrases.
521
00:50:39,645 --> 00:50:45,405
I'm gonna make a little clip so you know, of all these different really awesome ways to think about engineering.
522
00:50:46,335 --> 00:50:46,725
Um.
523
00:50:47,115 --> 00:50:59,295
Well, so I guess like talking about careers and getting people involved, would you say there are certain degrees then that really matter? I mean, w do you think the da you, you're sort of talking about the data.
524
00:50:59,295 --> 00:51:09,255
I think in school a lot of times people can go the sort of data science track, MIS track or they can go the sort of, um, engineering track.
525
00:51:09,255 --> 00:51:15,285
Do you, do you have strong preferences for that? Do you think? Either one is good? So yeah, either one is good.
526
00:51:16,155 --> 00:51:25,215
However, I'm going to, uh, defer to a, a, a presentation that I saw at a conference and I got up and I think he's stat was like 25%.
527
00:51:25,545 --> 00:51:32,595
So he said like 25% of the jobs that we work now did not exist when we were at college.
528
00:51:32,625 --> 00:51:34,155
So you could not study for them.
529
00:51:35,175 --> 00:51:35,505
Yeah.
530
00:51:36,525 --> 00:51:41,505
So you, your college, uh, or what you're studying at college is going to be a foundation.
531
00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:49,920
You know, the skillset we're gonna need to, uh, to design and procure and, and, and, uh, execute these data centers that doesn't exist yet.
532
00:51:51,075 --> 00:52:02,340
So, so give yourself an engineering or a data science foundation, but understand that, um, that gets you to the starting line right After four years, you're at the start line.
533
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:07,500
And, uh, now we're gonna start to balloon, okay? So I know we're running outta time.
534
00:52:07,980 --> 00:52:12,780
Let's, uh, let's take this back to, you said we were gonna get together in 2030 again and do an uptake.
535
00:52:12,780 --> 00:52:16,200
Can I get your forecast? 'cause you said a lot of things aren't gonna exist.
536
00:52:16,500 --> 00:52:17,730
A lot of things are gonna change.
537
00:52:18,750 --> 00:52:20,280
AI has arrived.
538
00:52:20,340 --> 00:52:22,860
That's obviously gonna impact us in a major way.
539
00:52:22,860 --> 00:52:39,480
Do you have any predictions or thoughts about where the industry is heading? Hopefully advanced work packages continues, its meteoric rise, but could you give us some predictions perhaps or some, some thoughts? So, um, I think that, um.
540
00:52:40,350 --> 00:52:50,580
You know, there's a couple of things that change industries and that change, uh, there's, there's, uh, on quite often like a rupture done.
541
00:52:50,820 --> 00:52:52,260
Uh, Uber was a rupture.
542
00:52:52,260 --> 00:52:53,280
Mm-hmm.
543
00:52:53,715 --> 00:52:54,005
Yeah.
544
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,010
You know, we were, we were stuck in the taxi world.
545
00:52:56,010 --> 00:52:56,940
We were happy with it.
546
00:52:56,940 --> 00:52:59,250
And then Uber just boom, uh, here's a rupture.
547
00:52:59,580 --> 00:53:01,590
And the world changed from that point forward.
548
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:12,180
So, uh, we will have ruptures in our project management world, and I'm hoping that, uh, that, um, you know, a WP will be part of that.
549
00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:14,010
It'll be exactly what I said.
550
00:53:14,580 --> 00:53:19,830
We have to understand that, that predictable execution is a choice.
551
00:53:21,150 --> 00:53:27,990
And if you, uh, come in late or you overspend the budget, you had the choice to go there and you chose not to.
552
00:53:28,650 --> 00:53:28,860
Right.
553
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,310
So we, we need to, we need to get to that, that, that state of maturity.
554
00:53:32,790 --> 00:53:35,550
Um, so, so I think that, um, uh, that's important.
555
00:53:36,255 --> 00:53:37,845
Is that we, we understand that.
556
00:53:38,235 --> 00:53:52,875
Um, but also, um, um, you know, who knows where AI is gonna take us? I, I, I know it's, it's hard to imagine except that, um, we have, uh, know, I think of, well, it's actually not ai, it's machine learning.
557
00:53:52,875 --> 00:53:54,975
But I mean, it's, it's collective wisdom.
558
00:53:55,425 --> 00:54:15,585
And when we learn to harness that collective wisdom, and you can ask a, an AI program, okay, what's the best way to build a data center? And it spits out, you know, procurement, procurement, procurement, right? I can build, right? Or maybe we get a program that says, okay, I want this, this level of capacity.
559
00:54:15,825 --> 00:54:25,965
And you put that into a program, it searches the world for what is available and spits back your procurement, um, plan and says, okay, you can get this stuff and it'll all fit together.
560
00:54:25,965 --> 00:54:27,855
And, uh, and that's available.
561
00:54:27,855 --> 00:54:29,635
Do you wanna order it? Um, you know.
562
00:54:31,110 --> 00:54:33,090
Maybe that's where AI is gonna take us.
563
00:54:33,090 --> 00:54:50,460
And I think that, yeah, they, they're both real, um, uh, scenarios where we should be able to get the whole world, the manufacturing capacity of the whole world in a, in an app, uh, that tells us, you know, uh, what we can get and where it's busy and you know how much it is and what the level of quality is.
564
00:54:50,460 --> 00:54:53,400
And, you know, we, we should be able to do that fairly soon.
565
00:54:53,850 --> 00:54:56,550
'cause you can sort of, sort of do that with AI now.
566
00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:57,630
Anyway.
567
00:54:57,630 --> 00:55:01,050
So I think that's, that's where our, um, business is going.
568
00:55:01,470 --> 00:55:09,000
Um, um, uh, but uh, you know, one of the other things that I think is going to be an accelerant to that is, uh, regulation.
569
00:55:09,570 --> 00:55:26,460
Um, so, you know, one of the things that I'm doing, um, sort of on the side here is working, working with, um, uh, governments, um, uh, around the world, um, asking them to, uh, lead the way here, you know, because essentially what we're doing is we're saying we need some, some, um.
570
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:31,750
Um, rules in place that allow us to be professional.
571
00:55:32,110 --> 00:55:39,970
Um, so, uh, and, uh, just simply, I think of the UK government and, and Singapore, uh, have both mandated, uh, BIM models.
572
00:55:39,970 --> 00:55:47,920
So if you work for them on any of their government projects, you have to have a building information model, which is basically just a 3D model that's intelligent.
573
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:50,530
And so they've taken the first step there.
574
00:55:50,830 --> 00:55:59,440
I hear that actually the Russians are considering, uh, uh, a WP as a, a mandatory, um, best practice in their, in their execution of projects.
575
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:07,930
You know, that we need something like that as a trigger for the rest of the industry to say, okay, we're gonna have to step up our game here.
576
00:56:08,625 --> 00:56:12,105
You know, that change comes from desperation.
577
00:56:12,165 --> 00:56:17,805
You know, you've heard of the burning platform, uh, uh, standard, you know, we need a burning platform.
578
00:56:18,255 --> 00:56:27,315
Um, because if we don't have one, we'll just keep doing what we're doing and it'll be acceptable, you know, be acceptable to run late and over, over budget, and we'll be fine with that.
579
00:56:27,315 --> 00:56:36,225
We work for the last 20 years or 50 years, so we need, um, uh, we need, uh, um, some regulation that says, no, that's no longer acceptable.
580
00:56:36,525 --> 00:56:44,835
Um, and that's really the job of government is to help us, um, uh, um, encourage us to go places that we don't really want to go.
581
00:56:45,345 --> 00:56:50,745
Um, so that's, the industry has to go there, and I know a whole bunch of the owners have already gone there.
582
00:56:50,745 --> 00:57:00,765
You look at the, uh, big, uh, oil and gas, um, and actually even, you know, some of their data center guys, uh, Microsoft and Google I know are talking about mandating a WP.
583
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:09,960
They don't know what exactly what they just said, but that's, they know that it's a level of professionalism that they're gonna need to, uh, to make this work.
584
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:10,020
Yeah.
585
00:57:10,350 --> 00:57:12,690
So anyway, yes, we, we need regulation as well.
586
00:57:14,010 --> 00:57:16,080
Um, that's awesome.
587
00:57:16,230 --> 00:57:19,260
We, we have so much to talk about around those lines.
588
00:57:19,260 --> 00:57:22,170
'cause I'm sort of coming from the data side of it.
589
00:57:22,170 --> 00:57:42,960
So I've been working on, I think one of the issues that I see in our industry, um, is that we don't actually have a data, common data model, so that in the BIM space we do actually, we have a data standard, but in the project controls sort of project data space, and I would guess in the a WP space, we, we have the systems.
590
00:57:42,990 --> 00:57:51,520
So like ISO 21, 5 0 8 is awesome and it takes you through all of like, this is what you do for cost, schedule, integration, blah, blah, blah.
591
00:57:51,750 --> 00:57:57,510
But when you actually say, okay, where's the data model? It's like, oh, well that's in this program.
592
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,250
That's a P six.
593
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:00,240
Oracle built that.
594
00:58:01,305 --> 00:58:08,235
But Oracle built schedule and then they kind of half built maybe the cost piece and then you got SAP has their data model.
595
00:58:08,235 --> 00:58:21,495
And so something I'm working on for really for 2026 is to try to create a gold standard open source data model where you can say, Hey, this is how we model this information and I don't care what systems you have.
596
00:58:21,495 --> 00:58:24,525
Like this is the one that's aligned to the ISO 21, 5 0 8.
597
00:58:24,885 --> 00:58:30,735
So, um, if you wanna do reporting, because it gets really complicated, really fast on the reporting and people get tripped up.
598
00:58:30,735 --> 00:58:36,255
And so kind of going along with what you're saying, it starts by having that ISO 21, 5 0 8, you have to have that.
599
00:58:36,465 --> 00:58:46,065
And then I think next level, so, so you are, as an industry leader, the industry leader in advanced work packages, you're sort of setting those standards with governments.
600
00:58:46,095 --> 00:58:54,705
And then I think where I can come in a little bit or somebody like me has to say, alright, you've defined the core system.
601
00:58:54,945 --> 00:58:57,720
Here is a standard common data model, and they did this with bim.
602
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,590
Um, and they've done this, like in healthcare, they have HL seven.
603
00:59:01,890 --> 00:59:08,460
Uh, the MLS was really successful by defining a common data standard for house listings.
604
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:24,360
Um, so there's all these industries that come out with these data standards, and then that creates that explosion in the industry of like, wow, we can talk to each other, we can, uh, the reports can be shared because it's not all, you know, the sa same, uh, data or it's not all different like data structures.
605
00:59:24,420 --> 00:59:27,930
Um, anyway, so we'll have to chat about that sometime.
606
00:59:27,930 --> 00:59:33,060
I'd love to love to connect into your a WP standards and practices.
607
00:59:33,750 --> 00:59:33,930
Okay.
608
00:59:33,930 --> 00:59:39,480
So the, the other thing that that leads us to of course, is, um, once you have standards, you have to have measurement.
609
00:59:40,530 --> 00:59:44,160
So you have to be, it has to be, uh, it has to be measured.
610
00:59:44,505 --> 01:00:00,585
So you need to go and, you know, much like ISO does, you know, there's a, there's an auditing process on uh, whether you're compliant with the standard or we need something like that, um, uh, on, uh, with our data standards, um, something we haven't touched on, which is a huge slippery slope.
611
01:00:00,945 --> 01:00:04,425
Um, and I dunno if we've got the next, uh, three or four hours we can talk about this.
612
01:00:04,755 --> 01:00:07,875
Uh, but these, these data centers are gonna require power.
613
01:00:08,535 --> 01:00:09,015
Yeah.
614
01:00:09,555 --> 01:00:09,945
Yes.
615
01:00:10,005 --> 01:00:31,755
Which is a whole other subject I think, is that, you know, how do we get that and how do we, you know, how do we not, uh, make the price of residential power crazy because of that? Well, and didn't they used to, there's a saying, I'm gonna get this wrong, you probably know it, but it's, uh, we're moving from like watts per person to watts for bots.
616
01:00:32,175 --> 01:00:37,575
So when you look at like total demand for energy, it's moving away from in the, in the past.
617
01:00:37,785 --> 01:00:51,165
And what I think is fascinating about that actually is that, um, you're, uh, I was just talking to city manager in Boise and they're building this massive data center and the, the power requirements for that are insane.
618
01:00:51,225 --> 01:00:53,595
And you have like, it's very different.
619
01:00:53,595 --> 01:00:58,275
I think if you're a power provider and you have like 50,000 people you're gonna be servicing.
620
01:00:58,695 --> 01:01:03,915
That's like you're, you have all these little individual people and collectively they have a voice, but not individually.
621
01:01:03,915 --> 01:01:04,335
They don't.
622
01:01:04,755 --> 01:01:18,285
Whereas these data centers, it's like you have a $5 billion data center and you have like a very strong voice coming to the city or coming to a government and it's sort of a single person or small group that are saying we need this much power.
623
01:01:18,285 --> 01:01:29,265
So it's a very different dynamic that this, that these cities and states are operating against where you have, um, before it was more of a collectivist power sort of dynamic.
624
01:01:29,265 --> 01:01:31,005
And now it's turning into, I think.
625
01:01:31,500 --> 01:01:45,540
Maybe collect collectivist dynamic versus like large organizations that are asking for massive power draws from the grid and, and otherwise, um, I don't know how that's gonna shake out, do you? No, that's a, that's a conversation for a different day.
626
01:01:46,590 --> 01:01:47,070
Very good.
627
01:01:47,070 --> 01:01:55,650
Well, let's switch over then and just get a little bit, um, I'd love to touch a little bit on your business, 'cause I know that, uh, and, and hear about your book.
628
01:01:55,650 --> 01:02:14,730
So maybe you could just tell us a little bit about, about, uh, how people could get access to your book and also like, tell us about your business that you started that I think sort of was informed by that initial, um, that initial like a WP uh, spark that you got.
629
01:02:14,850 --> 01:02:16,200
Yeah, it was, it was a gap.
630
01:02:16,770 --> 01:02:18,600
Uh, it was a gap that, that had to be filled.
631
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:24,900
You know, that if we wanted people to actually build packages and give them to foreman, then we had to provide support to, to do that.
632
01:02:25,530 --> 01:02:26,790
So that was the initial spark.
633
01:02:26,790 --> 01:02:28,020
And that's, that's still today's.
634
01:02:29,895 --> 01:02:37,455
Uh, what I did do is I, uh, essentially after we, uh, had done that in, um, Canada for a while, I wrote a book and said, okay, this is how we, this is what we do.
635
01:02:37,455 --> 01:02:38,145
This is how we do it.
636
01:02:38,535 --> 01:02:44,595
Um, with the, um, intent that, um, people didn't have to hire us to figure this out.
637
01:02:44,625 --> 01:02:45,585
They could just read the book.
638
01:02:45,945 --> 01:02:47,535
And, and a lot of people did that.
639
01:02:47,715 --> 01:02:48,645
They just said, all right, yeah.
640
01:02:48,645 --> 01:02:49,995
Hey, we're gonna do work packages.
641
01:02:51,105 --> 01:02:52,335
The, you know, it's pretty simple.
642
01:02:52,335 --> 01:02:53,205
Here's the rules.
643
01:02:53,475 --> 01:02:53,955
There we go.
644
01:02:54,375 --> 01:02:59,265
Um, now, um, that worked while we were doing, uh, workplace planning.
645
01:02:59,295 --> 01:03:08,475
Then several years later when it expanded into advanced work packaging, I had to rewrite that, uh, or publisher the next version, which was the one that is out there now.
646
01:03:08,475 --> 01:03:11,745
So anyway, so the first book was called Schedule for Sale.
647
01:03:12,810 --> 01:03:19,500
And I, I, I wrote that because I wanted people to, uh, think about the title.
648
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:19,920
I didn't.
649
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:27,870
I, you know, I'm, uh, and you'll see this in my writing, I, I quite often mix up the, the, the way that I write so that it wakes up the reader.
650
01:03:27,930 --> 01:03:29,910
And that's what I really wanted to do with that title.
651
01:03:30,330 --> 01:03:32,730
What do you mean schedule for sale? How can you buy a schedule? Yeah.
652
01:03:33,270 --> 01:03:36,360
Well, you can buy a schedule, right? But you can't buy it with money.
653
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:39,480
You've gotta buy it with effort and time and, and process.
654
01:03:39,810 --> 01:03:39,990
Right.
655
01:03:39,990 --> 01:03:41,790
You can get schedule, right.
656
01:03:41,820 --> 01:03:53,340
So, so anyway, so the second book is called Even More Schedule for Sale, uh, which is basically the process of synchronizing, engineering, procurement, and construction.
657
01:03:54,090 --> 01:03:56,310
Um, and I must have done something right.
658
01:03:56,340 --> 01:03:59,400
Um, I know people read the book and it resonates with them.
659
01:03:59,730 --> 01:04:06,450
And, um, most people that have been in the project industry, any length of time, they read the book and they're like, yeah, I didn't learn anything.
660
01:04:06,750 --> 01:04:10,770
But I have a holistic understanding of how things fit with each other.
661
01:04:11,355 --> 01:04:12,975
Which is really what we're trying to achieve.
662
01:04:13,485 --> 01:04:27,045
Um, uh, the other challenge I might throw out there to see if this, uh, is, uh, real or not, is people said that after they've met me on, perhaps after they've, they've heard me talk, uh, that they can hear me when they're reading the book.
663
01:04:27,690 --> 01:04:32,100
So maybe you need an audio book edition.
664
01:04:32,100 --> 01:04:32,400
Then.
665
01:04:32,790 --> 01:04:34,230
Uh, we have an audio book.
666
01:04:34,500 --> 01:04:36,690
Uh, it's also available in four other languages.
667
01:04:36,870 --> 01:04:41,370
Um, so, and that was, uh, basically because each of those other markets came to us.
668
01:04:41,370 --> 01:04:48,660
So the Russians came to us and said, Hey, um, you know, we have workers who don't speak English and we need to communicate with them.
669
01:04:48,750 --> 01:04:54,420
Um, it was actually a, um, a professor at the, uh, uh, Polytechnic in, uh, St.
670
01:04:54,420 --> 01:05:01,890
Petersburg that came to me and said, Hey, I, I want to, uh, give this book to my class and, and, uh, get them to translate it.
671
01:05:01,890 --> 01:05:02,610
And I said like, sure.
672
01:05:02,610 --> 01:05:04,260
So that's what he did for like a semester.
673
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:07,500
They basically just focused on the book and wow.
674
01:05:07,500 --> 01:05:12,570
They translated it a little bit at a time, argued about the translation, make sure that everybody's on page.
675
01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:18,480
And of course, at the end of it, everybody knew exactly what the, the book was talking about, and we ended up with a translation.
676
01:05:19,140 --> 01:05:19,980
Uh, and that's important.
677
01:05:19,980 --> 01:05:23,250
You don't just Google translate, um, this type of concept.
678
01:05:23,250 --> 01:05:24,120
You have to understand it.
679
01:05:24,510 --> 01:05:26,430
So we did the same thing in, uh, Mandarin.
680
01:05:27,210 --> 01:05:38,640
Um, uh, Spanish and Portuguese, uh, Portuguese and Spanish, of course for the South American market, um, uh, which is booming with, um, uh, with, uh, application of a WB.
681
01:05:39,090 --> 01:05:42,720
Those guys are really keen to make this work.
682
01:05:43,980 --> 01:05:44,820
That's really cool.
683
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:51,690
Yeah, I mean, I think your book is sort of the gold standard for a WP in the industry, I believe.
684
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:54,060
Yeah, we're, we're certainly trying to make it that way.
685
01:05:54,060 --> 01:06:00,480
It's supposed to be an instructional book, uh, that sort of, uh, helps you, uh, conceptualize, um, um, what the process.
686
01:06:00,870 --> 01:06:09,450
One of the other interesting tools we're working on right now, um, uh, that maybe we can talk about in the future is, um, uh, something we're calling a WP chat.
687
01:06:10,470 --> 01:06:16,620
And so it's basically just a chat bot, uh, based on published a WP data.
688
01:06:16,860 --> 01:06:26,280
So we've taken very cool all of the world's, published a WP data, put it into a chat bot and said, okay, now we're gonna ask questions, and it's gonna draw from just that published data.
689
01:06:27,315 --> 01:06:38,175
Uh, so of course that allows, you know, organizations like COA or um, or CAI to say, well, you know, somebody calls them and says, well, explain this a WP thing to me.
690
01:06:38,295 --> 01:06:43,935
They'll be able to say, no, just go to chat a WP and a WP chat and, and ask that the questions.
691
01:06:44,355 --> 01:06:51,675
Um, but of course, we're trying to facilitate an understanding or a level of understanding with what a WP is and what to do.
692
01:06:51,675 --> 01:07:01,335
And so we're hoping that it will, uh, became, uh, become a resource, uh, for people where they can just go there and ask questions and, and get good quality answers.
693
01:07:01,980 --> 01:07:05,250
Is that available now or will it become available? Okay.
694
01:07:05,265 --> 01:07:15,690
How, how, how can I sign up to be, uh, on a mailing list for that? Um, well, um, it, it's a concept at the moment where we're trying it out and it seems to work really good.
695
01:07:16,140 --> 01:07:23,370
Um, um, watch this space, you know, that's, uh, I would say, um, so we haven't even figured out if we can do it yet.
696
01:07:23,370 --> 01:07:32,400
So first thing we have to do is talk to the, the data owners to say, Hey, is it okay if we make your data available to everybody? Um, so that's the, the first step.
697
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,300
And then maybe just talk a little bit about your company as we wrap up.
698
01:07:36,300 --> 01:07:45,030
I'm, I'm sure people are super interested about, um, about you, how they might be able to connect with you, and also just the story of, of what you do.
699
01:07:45,150 --> 01:07:52,290
Um, maybe if it's someone in government or, um, somebody looking to build a data center that wants to do it.
700
01:07:52,290 --> 01:08:03,510
Like how do they work with you or do you even work with people anymore? Are you mostly just on the speaker tour these days? No, we, uh, our company is, uh, alive and thriving and, uh, and, and, uh, growing.
701
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:13,290
Um, we sort of average about 30, uh, project managers at any one time that work for us that, uh, uh, set essentially embedded in projects around the world.
702
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:24,210
Um, and they go there to, um, to coach the project on how to apply a WP um, three specific areas that we, um, uh, we target.
703
01:08:24,270 --> 01:08:26,610
Um, so first of all, engineering and procurement.
704
01:08:26,610 --> 01:08:31,650
Somebody needs to, uh, basically coach that whole, those whole teams on, okay, this is how you do this.
705
01:08:32,625 --> 01:08:35,505
Uh, we have, uh, information management, which is digital data.
706
01:08:36,045 --> 01:08:37,965
Okay? This is how we produce digital data.
707
01:08:37,965 --> 01:08:41,925
This is how we standardize it, this is how we, uh, host it.
708
01:08:41,955 --> 01:08:43,065
This is what we do with it.
709
01:08:43,605 --> 01:08:45,165
Uh, and then of course, work packaging.
710
01:08:45,165 --> 01:08:55,275
So somebody to work with the construction group to say, okay, let, let's build some I wps, right? Let's figure out what constraint management actually looks like, and then somebody to manage that, that whole environment.
711
01:08:55,575 --> 01:08:57,855
So basically we're like the coaching team.
712
01:08:58,155 --> 01:09:01,545
Um, uh, we are, uh, embedded with projects.
713
01:09:01,545 --> 01:09:02,505
So we're not consultants.
714
01:09:02,505 --> 01:09:03,885
We're, we're project managers.
715
01:09:04,395 --> 01:09:13,995
Um, and essentially we just, you know, we are, we're working with a whole range of companies, uh, in that space that want to get good at doing a WP themselves.
716
01:09:14,415 --> 01:09:16,905
And, uh, they hire us for a project or two.
717
01:09:17,385 --> 01:09:23,595
Uh, their people learn how to do this, and then, uh, they use us to come back and just do some, some audits on their process.
718
01:09:24,135 --> 01:09:25,395
Uh, so that's a business model.
719
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:37,080
Are you typically for the life of the project? Um, or do you come in just for a little bit? Like what's your ideal? So typically for the life of the project, uh, okay, that makes sense.
720
01:09:37,200 --> 01:09:37,440
Yeah.
721
01:09:37,440 --> 01:09:45,150
The, the, the, the structure of the whole process needs to be, um, if you like, uh, tweaked from, from start to finish.
722
01:09:45,630 --> 01:09:58,050
Um, and, and, and then, uh, as I said later on, after our organization, um, uh, matures down the a WP space, then we might come in for just, um, uh, portions of the project.
723
01:09:59,040 --> 01:09:59,490
Okay.
724
01:09:59,610 --> 01:10:00,150
Got it.
725
01:10:00,570 --> 01:10:10,050
And then just tying it back to that 10%, you know, sounds like really if you're, whatever you have a $150 million budget for construction.
726
01:10:10,590 --> 01:10:24,540
You know, you bring in a couple folks on your side and that really de-risks the project possibly boosts productivity quite a bit, um, depending on when you bring them in and how, um, could have a pretty, pretty positive impact to the project.
727
01:10:24,540 --> 01:10:25,200
That's pretty cool.
728
01:10:25,605 --> 01:10:30,675
So the, the biggest expense when you apply a WP is the work face planners.
729
01:10:30,675 --> 01:10:34,125
We need planners to build a WP, so that's the biggest portion of the cost.
730
01:10:34,425 --> 01:10:39,585
You know, the, uh, the, the, uh, our cost is, is, uh, insignificant compared to that.
731
01:10:40,005 --> 01:10:47,745
But either the way, um, um, in our, our model to try to help answer that, we said, all right, let's take a billion dollar project and do the math.
732
01:10:47,925 --> 01:10:53,445
So, uh, it costs you about $10 million to apply a WP on a billion dollar project.
733
01:10:54,795 --> 01:11:00,195
Now, if you realize that full 10%, you can reduce the cost of that project by a hundred million.
734
01:11:01,125 --> 01:11:01,545
Wow.
735
01:11:01,785 --> 01:11:03,495
So that's a thousand percent return.
736
01:11:04,035 --> 01:11:04,425
Yeah.
737
01:11:04,635 --> 01:11:04,845
Right.
738
01:11:04,995 --> 01:11:14,145
So even if you don't do a very good job of it, and you only get a 500% return, and the project finishes on time, you know, there's, there's enormous benefit.
739
01:11:14,145 --> 01:11:20,475
So it's not even close, uh, that it's a, it's a terrific investment, um, to just go down this path.
740
01:11:20,475 --> 01:11:25,035
Even if you don't get it right, if you, if you stumble through the first project and you get it on the second project.
741
01:11:26,310 --> 01:11:37,950
And of course the, the other, um, consideration is, you know, if we are in a continuous improvement model, if you're not doing a WP, what are you doing? Yeah, yeah.
742
01:11:38,070 --> 01:11:38,670
It's true.
743
01:11:39,540 --> 01:11:40,530
Gonna be doing something.
744
01:11:40,740 --> 01:11:41,130
Yeah.
745
01:11:41,130 --> 01:11:41,490
Yes.
746
01:11:42,090 --> 01:11:43,470
What is the next step? Yeah.
747
01:11:44,100 --> 01:11:44,460
Yeah.
748
01:11:45,240 --> 01:11:47,280
Well, thanks for coming on sharing all this.
749
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:58,500
So, if somebody wants to connect with you, are you on LinkedIn? Um, you know, how would you advise they, they reach out? Uh, so we have a website, of course, insight, a WP.
750
01:11:59,100 --> 01:12:04,200
Um, we actually have, uh, a bunch of, uh, YouTube videos up that, uh, we've posted.
751
01:12:04,230 --> 01:12:17,190
Um, so if you search search, advance work packaging, um, if you wanted to see those numbers that I talked about, uh, we put a video up there called a WP by the numbers, uh, which, which walks through all of those, uh, the project results.
752
01:12:17,820 --> 01:12:21,540
Uh, we've got a great, uh, video up there that you might wanna look at as a future state.
753
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:29,100
Something that we're doing on, on some projects now, but not too many, is called, uh, augmented Reality in Construction.
754
01:12:29,730 --> 01:12:39,000
And the end game of this is that once you have all that data and you have all these plans, yeah, you can then use that to use augmented reality.
755
01:12:39,030 --> 01:12:49,530
And we, you know, we we're actually doing that on, on projects where the foreman has an iPad instead of a hard copy package and he can see what he's supposed to build, which is awesome state.
756
01:12:50,250 --> 01:12:51,060
That's huge.
757
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:51,870
That's awesome.
758
01:12:52,110 --> 01:12:57,270
What was the name of the YouTube for that? It's just augmented Reality in Construction.
759
01:12:57,390 --> 01:12:58,350
In Construction.
760
01:12:58,355 --> 01:12:58,565
Okay.
761
01:12:58,860 --> 01:13:02,880
And we'll put all that in the description below so people can link into those things.
762
01:13:03,495 --> 01:13:04,905
Thanks so much, Jeff, for coming on.
763
01:13:04,905 --> 01:13:13,965
This was, this was a fantastic conversation and uh, we're always trying to look for ways to, you know, we're talking, the major project podcast is projects that are billion dollars and up.
764
01:13:14,025 --> 01:13:21,585
And I think one of the, one of our goals is, is sort of inform the community, advance our art, but also we're looking for those like billion dollar lessons.
765
01:13:21,915 --> 01:13:25,515
Uh, and I feel like a WP and that 10% is what really sticks with me.
766
01:13:25,515 --> 01:13:28,755
It's like, here's how you can save a hundred million dollars.
767
01:13:28,755 --> 01:13:40,965
And I hope, I hope the listeners are, are, are latching onto that because I think it's pretty, it's pretty exciting when you, when you find an area that you can potentially level up in our, our, so thanks for doing that.
768
01:13:41,295 --> 01:13:41,985
You're most welcome.
769
01:13:42,045 --> 01:13:47,685
Um, so, um, I will tell your listeners that the videos are our gift to them.
770
01:13:48,285 --> 01:14:02,685
Uh, because if they decide that they wanna go down this path, they're gonna have to explain themselves to somebody else, right? So the videos are that tool, uh, so the a WP by the numbers is good to have a look at, but ultimately it should be a tool in your back pocket.
771
01:14:03,195 --> 01:14:06,855
Because basically you need to convince somebody else to try this.
772
01:14:07,485 --> 01:14:08,385
Here's the evidence.
773
01:14:08,565 --> 01:14:09,075
Awesome.
774
01:14:09,375 --> 01:14:18,405
Alright Jeff, well thanks so much for joining and I look forward to following up at at at a minimum in 2030, but hopefully more 'cause we have so many things to talk about.
775
01:14:19,335 --> 01:14:20,745
The story might change next year.
776
01:14:20,745 --> 01:14:21,135
I'll have to.
777
01:14:22,815 --> 01:14:23,445
So true.
778
01:14:24,285 --> 01:14:25,425
All right, well thanks for coming on.
779
01:14:25,695 --> 01:14:26,175
Take care.
780
01:14:26,595 --> 01:14:26,775
Bye.
781
01:14:27,405 --> 01:14:30,315
Thanks for listening to the Major Project podcast.
782
01:14:30,435 --> 01:14:37,095
Be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts and learn more at the major project podcast.com.
783
01:14:37,305 --> 01:14:39,915
Until next time, keep building big.