00:00:00
Speaker 1: Let's move to this conversation now. So, of course, on Wednesday, we all head to the polls. It is the local government elections. And, of course, during this time, you see, you know, certain marks or something that points to misinformation or disinformation, falsehoods that are being moved around and shared on social media. We live in an age where anyone with a smartphone, really, and an internet connection can become a publisher or a commentator and a source of information for thousands and sometimes millions of people. Well, this has opened up incredible opportunities for freedom of expression, and it's also made it easier for misinformation and disinformation to spread. And that's why we thought to have this conversation just before the local government elections. My guest for this conversation is Hangi Mbedzi, the acting senior manager for PAPIA at the compliance or in compliance and monitoring. I hope I have that title correct. She's from the information regulator. Hangi, good morning. Thank you so much for your time.
00:01:00
Speaker 2: Good morning, Kumutwa. Thank you so much for having us. Yes, you have it correct.
00:01:04
Speaker 1: All right. It's usually around this time of the year or the season, election season, where we see misinformation and disinformation spiking quite a bit. We see deepfakes making the rounds as well as what seems to be a concerted effort to really, you know, soil this area of information to make sure that the information that gets around to people is sometimes not the truth or correct information. Maybe let's start with distinguishing between misinformation and disinformation. We use them interchangeably so much.
00:01:38
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having us once again. It is true, it's almost silly season if we want to look at it in that way. But it's very important for us to be able to distinguish between the two concepts. And generally, misinformation refers to false or inaccurate information that is usually shared without necessarily intending to deceive the receiver or deceive another person. Whereas with disinformation, it looks at false or misleading information that is deliberately created or shared with the intention to deceive. So with disinformation, we look at the intent, and usually the intent is to deceive. So when we talk about what you just mentioned earlier, deepfakes, and I think we've seen quite a number of videos that have been doing the rounds on social media, with images and voices of prominent people or politicians sending specific messages, that is usually created with the intention to deceive. So that is looked at as disinformation, whereas with misinformation, you don't necessarily have the intention to deceive the receiver. It's something that you also received maybe from somebody else and you believed it to be correct and you're sharing this thinking that indeed it is correct. So you didn't necessarily have the intention to deceive another person. Yeah.
00:02:58
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we speak about the dangers of misinformation and disinformation quite a bit, especially during this time, you know, or this season, as you've said. Recently, we've had an incident where cars had been torched around the Soweto area. The protests, which were violent in nature, then spread to other parts of the country. And this was based on the understanding or an interpretation of of a constitutional court judgment and Home Affairs' implementation of that. Now, there was a lot of disinformation around that story. How far reaching can the implications of disinformation in our society be?
00:03:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think if we had to look at the season that we are in right now, being the election season, we need to look at the implications of what misinformation can have And it can be something as simple as giving inaccurate information regarding a voting station or, you know, opening times and closures for voting stations. And that fundamentally impacts on a person's right in terms of the Constitution, the right to be able to cast your vote. You know, and we're living in an age where everything is at your fingertips. You open social media, you open Google and all sorts of other applications and there's just information overload. And I think what we need to be cautious about is that not everything that we receive is worth sharing. Maybe that's number one. But number two, everything that we receive, we need to look at it with a certain eye of caution. because it does impact a lot on the next person or the receiver. Because as we said, that misinformation doesn't necessarily mean that you want to deceive another person. However, it may have those unintended consequences. If we're looking at political parties and campaigning, when you send the wrong message about a political party or what they stand for, that can severely impact a person's judgment. So the consequences are far and wide and it impacts on basic constitutional rights. So we need to be very careful about what we are sharing. We need to stop and think and ask ourselves, is it worth sharing? Some things can be easily verifiable. I think the IEC has got a platform where you can verify some of this information. So we need to be very cautious when we look at this kind of information and how we are spreading it because it does have far-reaching consequences.
00:05:42
Speaker 1: Yeah. I want to speak about this in the context of freedom of speech because this is what a lot of people will tell you. They'll say, I'm sharing what I believe is true. In the recent, in the last elections, the national elections, there were a number of narratives around the counting of votes and, uh, a number of allegations were made, baseless allegations mostly, were made around the work of the IAC and the counting of votes. Now, several people then came out and said, no, this is what I believe because it's something that I saw, and so I'm going to post it on social media. Where do we draw the line then between someone's constitutional right to freedom of expression and the deliberate and reckless, really, dissemination of information?
00:06:22
Speaker 2: And this is a legitimate concern, yes, Regarding also the measures that have been put in place to try and combat misinformation and disinformation and that some of these measures could be used to maybe suppress political criticism, dissent or uncomfortable opinions. We must be careful not to confuse misinformation with an opinion that we disagree with. people have the right to criticize government, to challenge political leaders and to express dissatisfaction and indeed to bring facts that they are seeing on the ground, the facts that they've experienced, their own lived experiences here. The issue is where we deliberately manufacture or distribute false information with the intention to deceive or manipulate or you know, cause some sort of harm. And I think our response and the response, I think, of all that are involved, all stakeholders, IEC governments, various political parties and, you know, various media platforms, I think our response must protect both information integrity and constitutional freedoms. Citizens have the right to express dissatisfaction with service delivery, with anything that they're seeing. As you mentioned in the previous elections, there was some dissatisfaction with the way in which IEC handled some of the issues that were happening, closure times of voting stations, etc. And we have the right to be able to criticize and to voice dissatisfaction. our opinions. But we need to remember that freedom of expression is constitutionally protected. However, there is an obligation on all of these stakeholders to try and combat disinformation and misinformation. So I think what is important here is that whatever response we have as all of these various stakeholders is that it must be able to protect the integrity and constitutional freedoms, but we must also be very careful about this issue of misinformation and disinformation because, like I said earlier, it does have far-reaching consequences. Yeah.
00:08:48
Speaker 1: And what should we be on the lookout for when it comes to this information that may be put out there to misinform the public? what should you be on the lookout for? We spoke about deepfakes a little earlier on. There's the popular video that's been making the rounds over the last couple of days of former President Nelson Mandela telling people who not to vote for. What are some of the things that we should be on the lookout for?
00:09:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, the information that we shared today really can influence the environment in which other people are going to exercise their rights, their democratic rights on Wednesdays. And you've mentioned some of what we've also picked up. WhatsApp is a very big platform that we all use. It's an easy platform. You know, I think we should all look out for messages that purport to be from organizations such as the IEC, you know, messages around changing of voting stations. like you said, videos that show political leaders making certain statements or certain controversial statements, people that are circulating lists of people that are allegedly maybe affiliated with certain political parties, messaging that can also purport to indicate that Voting has been postponed. We've seen quite a number of those over. the past couple of elections. So I think the message here is to be very cautious. And I think we shouldn't treat every message as suspicious, but we need to have a certain level of caution, especially when the messaging moves from the norm or what we've always known. And I think maybe also the message is to try and use reputable sources, you know, our traditional mainstream media Those kinds, because on social media, anyone can create anything. So I think the message is for our listeners to have a certain level of caution when they receive certain messages, when they, you know, scroll through social media, but also maybe to verify some of this information first. use our mainstream media, use the official websites of organizations such as the IEC and any other tools that they may have developed to try and assist in the countering of misinformation and disinformation.
00:11:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure. We're speaking misinformation and disinformation today with Hangi Mbezi, who is Acting Senior Manager for Popia and Compliance and Monitoring at the Information Institute.
00:11:41
Speaker 2: Regulator.
00:11:42
Speaker 1: So where do people go, Hangi, if they feel that they've come across a piece that has been produced for the purposes of disinformation or that material is being shared online to misinform people? What do we do? Can we report somewhere?
00:11:57
Speaker 2: Yeah. So maybe there's two aspects that we need to distinguish here. When we're talking about elections, we look more towards the IEC, and they've had this code of good practice that all political parties have pledged to, and I think they have a platform. I think it's called the Real411 elections. It's a platform that they have developed where you can report issues around misinformation and disinformation around the election. As A regulator, the information regulator, we are more concerned with the processing of personal information. So where there's misinformation or disinformation involves personal information, be it your identity number, your name. in some instances, your image. So where this involves personal information, that is where we would then come in from a perspective of protecting your privacy and protection of personal information. But more generally and more broadly, if we're looking at the season of elections, I think the most suitable would be the IEC and this real 411 elections platform that they have developed.
00:13:16
Speaker 1: All right. Thank you so much for this. This was Hankin Bedzi, Acting Senior Manager for Papier Compliance and Monitoring at the Information Regulator.
Speaker 1: Let's move to this conversation now. So, of course, on Wednesday, we all head to the polls. It is the local government elections. And, of course, during this time, you see, you know, certain marks or something that points to misinformation or disinformation, falsehoods that are being moved around and shared on social media. We live in an age where anyone with a smartphone, really, and an internet connection can become a publisher or a commentator and a source of information for thousands and sometimes millions of people. Well, this has opened up incredible opportunities for freedom of expression, and it's also made it easier for misinformation and disinformation to spread. And that's why we thought to have this conversation just before the local government elections. My guest for this conversation is Hangi Mbedzi, the acting senior manager for PAPIA at the compliance or in compliance and monitoring. I hope I have that title correct. She's from the information regulator. Hangi, good morning. Thank you so much for your time.
00:01:00
Speaker 2: Good morning, Kumutwa. Thank you so much for having us. Yes, you have it correct.
00:01:04
Speaker 1: All right. It's usually around this time of the year or the season, election season, where we see misinformation and disinformation spiking quite a bit. We see deepfakes making the rounds as well as what seems to be a concerted effort to really, you know, soil this area of information to make sure that the information that gets around to people is sometimes not the truth or correct information. Maybe let's start with distinguishing between misinformation and disinformation. We use them interchangeably so much.
00:01:38
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having us once again. It is true, it's almost silly season if we want to look at it in that way. But it's very important for us to be able to distinguish between the two concepts. And generally, misinformation refers to false or inaccurate information that is usually shared without necessarily intending to deceive the receiver or deceive another person. Whereas with disinformation, it looks at false or misleading information that is deliberately created or shared with the intention to deceive. So with disinformation, we look at the intent, and usually the intent is to deceive. So when we talk about what you just mentioned earlier, deepfakes, and I think we've seen quite a number of videos that have been doing the rounds on social media, with images and voices of prominent people or politicians sending specific messages, that is usually created with the intention to deceive. So that is looked at as disinformation, whereas with misinformation, you don't necessarily have the intention to deceive the receiver. It's something that you also received maybe from somebody else and you believed it to be correct and you're sharing this thinking that indeed it is correct. So you didn't necessarily have the intention to deceive another person. Yeah.
00:02:58
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we speak about the dangers of misinformation and disinformation quite a bit, especially during this time, you know, or this season, as you've said. Recently, we've had an incident where cars had been torched around the Soweto area. The protests, which were violent in nature, then spread to other parts of the country. And this was based on the understanding or an interpretation of of a constitutional court judgment and Home Affairs' implementation of that. Now, there was a lot of disinformation around that story. How far reaching can the implications of disinformation in our society be?
00:03:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think if we had to look at the season that we are in right now, being the election season, we need to look at the implications of what misinformation can have And it can be something as simple as giving inaccurate information regarding a voting station or, you know, opening times and closures for voting stations. And that fundamentally impacts on a person's right in terms of the Constitution, the right to be able to cast your vote. You know, and we're living in an age where everything is at your fingertips. You open social media, you open Google and all sorts of other applications and there's just information overload. And I think what we need to be cautious about is that not everything that we receive is worth sharing. Maybe that's number one. But number two, everything that we receive, we need to look at it with a certain eye of caution. because it does impact a lot on the next person or the receiver. Because as we said, that misinformation doesn't necessarily mean that you want to deceive another person. However, it may have those unintended consequences. If we're looking at political parties and campaigning, when you send the wrong message about a political party or what they stand for, that can severely impact a person's judgment. So the consequences are far and wide and it impacts on basic constitutional rights. So we need to be very careful about what we are sharing. We need to stop and think and ask ourselves, is it worth sharing? Some things can be easily verifiable. I think the IEC has got a platform where you can verify some of this information. So we need to be very cautious when we look at this kind of information and how we are spreading it because it does have far-reaching consequences.
00:05:42
Speaker 1: Yeah. I want to speak about this in the context of freedom of speech because this is what a lot of people will tell you. They'll say, I'm sharing what I believe is true. In the recent, in the last elections, the national elections, there were a number of narratives around the counting of votes and, uh, a number of allegations were made, baseless allegations mostly, were made around the work of the IAC and the counting of votes. Now, several people then came out and said, no, this is what I believe because it's something that I saw, and so I'm going to post it on social media. Where do we draw the line then between someone's constitutional right to freedom of expression and the deliberate and reckless, really, dissemination of information?
00:06:22
Speaker 2: And this is a legitimate concern, yes, Regarding also the measures that have been put in place to try and combat misinformation and disinformation and that some of these measures could be used to maybe suppress political criticism, dissent or uncomfortable opinions. We must be careful not to confuse misinformation with an opinion that we disagree with. people have the right to criticize government, to challenge political leaders and to express dissatisfaction and indeed to bring facts that they are seeing on the ground, the facts that they've experienced, their own lived experiences here. The issue is where we deliberately manufacture or distribute false information with the intention to deceive or manipulate or you know, cause some sort of harm. And I think our response and the response, I think, of all that are involved, all stakeholders, IEC governments, various political parties and, you know, various media platforms, I think our response must protect both information integrity and constitutional freedoms. Citizens have the right to express dissatisfaction with service delivery, with anything that they're seeing. As you mentioned in the previous elections, there was some dissatisfaction with the way in which IEC handled some of the issues that were happening, closure times of voting stations, etc. And we have the right to be able to criticize and to voice dissatisfaction. our opinions. But we need to remember that freedom of expression is constitutionally protected. However, there is an obligation on all of these stakeholders to try and combat disinformation and misinformation. So I think what is important here is that whatever response we have as all of these various stakeholders is that it must be able to protect the integrity and constitutional freedoms, but we must also be very careful about this issue of misinformation and disinformation because, like I said earlier, it does have far-reaching consequences. Yeah.
00:08:48
Speaker 1: And what should we be on the lookout for when it comes to this information that may be put out there to misinform the public? what should you be on the lookout for? We spoke about deepfakes a little earlier on. There's the popular video that's been making the rounds over the last couple of days of former President Nelson Mandela telling people who not to vote for. What are some of the things that we should be on the lookout for?
00:09:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, the information that we shared today really can influence the environment in which other people are going to exercise their rights, their democratic rights on Wednesdays. And you've mentioned some of what we've also picked up. WhatsApp is a very big platform that we all use. It's an easy platform. You know, I think we should all look out for messages that purport to be from organizations such as the IEC, you know, messages around changing of voting stations. like you said, videos that show political leaders making certain statements or certain controversial statements, people that are circulating lists of people that are allegedly maybe affiliated with certain political parties, messaging that can also purport to indicate that Voting has been postponed. We've seen quite a number of those over. the past couple of elections. So I think the message here is to be very cautious. And I think we shouldn't treat every message as suspicious, but we need to have a certain level of caution, especially when the messaging moves from the norm or what we've always known. And I think maybe also the message is to try and use reputable sources, you know, our traditional mainstream media Those kinds, because on social media, anyone can create anything. So I think the message is for our listeners to have a certain level of caution when they receive certain messages, when they, you know, scroll through social media, but also maybe to verify some of this information first. use our mainstream media, use the official websites of organizations such as the IEC and any other tools that they may have developed to try and assist in the countering of misinformation and disinformation.
00:11:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure. We're speaking misinformation and disinformation today with Hangi Mbezi, who is Acting Senior Manager for Popia and Compliance and Monitoring at the Information Institute.
00:11:41
Speaker 2: Regulator.
00:11:42
Speaker 1: So where do people go, Hangi, if they feel that they've come across a piece that has been produced for the purposes of disinformation or that material is being shared online to misinform people? What do we do? Can we report somewhere?
00:11:57
Speaker 2: Yeah. So maybe there's two aspects that we need to distinguish here. When we're talking about elections, we look more towards the IEC, and they've had this code of good practice that all political parties have pledged to, and I think they have a platform. I think it's called the Real411 elections. It's a platform that they have developed where you can report issues around misinformation and disinformation around the election. As A regulator, the information regulator, we are more concerned with the processing of personal information. So where there's misinformation or disinformation involves personal information, be it your identity number, your name. in some instances, your image. So where this involves personal information, that is where we would then come in from a perspective of protecting your privacy and protection of personal information. But more generally and more broadly, if we're looking at the season of elections, I think the most suitable would be the IEC and this real 411 elections platform that they have developed.
00:13:16
Speaker 1: All right. Thank you so much for this. This was Hankin Bedzi, Acting Senior Manager for Papier Compliance and Monitoring at the Information Regulator.
