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Speaker 1: You're with Clement Manatella.
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Speaker 2: 702. But right now, we start our conversation with the Deputy Minister of Trade, Industry and Competition, John Steenhazen, who's joining us in studio this morning. And there's just a lot to talk about, right? And I will, of course, start with the issues around trade, given the decision that the US took yesterday. But we'll be talking Really, a variety of conversations of different topics that we'll engage in in this hour. And that's why I want to invite you as well to join the chat. You can give me a call or send me a WhatsApp voice note if you want to join the chat. Maybe you've got a question for John or you want to weigh in on something. 011-883-0702 is the number to dial. If you want to send a WhatsApp text or voice note, 072702. 1-702-Johnston-Hazen. Welcome to studio.
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Speaker 3: Good morning. Good morning, Clement. Great to be with you. And of course, great to be with your listeners. Great to chat to you.
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Speaker 2: And one listener tweeted me earlier, I wasn't sure if you're going to come. He's like, Clement, are you sure he's going to come? And I said, yes, I am. This is a promise you made when we met last year that you'll come on the show. So thank you so much for fulfilling it.
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Speaker 3: Imagine that, a politician who keeps his promises.
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Speaker 2: That will be new. Okay, let's start with what's happening with our trade. We saw the announcement yesterday that as South Africa, we're going to be excluded from AGOA from January next year after 26 years of enjoying benefits from this preferential deal. And we'll get into the details in a moment. But I'm interested as someone who sort of was at some level involved even in negotiations with the U.S. administration, the Trump administration. How were the negotiations? Because the Minister of Trade and Industry indicated that he remains hopeful of a favorable outcome following the different engagements with U.S. officials over the past year.
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Speaker 3: Were you expecting this outcome? Well, look, I don't think it's unexpected. And I think that certainly with the new administration in the U.S., you learn to expect the unexpected. And I think it's not only South Africa who's having to navigate very choppy waters. We've seen in this latest round it's Rwanda as well. But we've also seen similar with some of the European partners. We've seen it with Canada. And these are the new waters we have to navigate when it comes to the United States of America. And we will have to learn to navigate these uncertainties going forward. But certainly, I think there's been signaling from the U.S. for the last year and a half, two years. There's been backwards and forward negotiations between DTRC, South Africa's mission in the U.S., Around this, there's been asks, there's been counter proposals. But I think it's come to a head now and there's certainty on it. And it's not an ideal outcome. And we need to be honest about that. I know there's some people who are saying, oh, well, you know, there it is. Trade is about addition, not subtraction. And we shouldn't celebrate any setbacks on trade, particularly in a country like South Africa that is really trying to get its economy moving, trying to create employment. But I do think there are a number of things we're going to have to do in the weeks and months ahead now that can mitigate against it. But I suppose we have the certainty now, and that certainty allows us to plan to take these steps that we would need to over the coming months.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll talk about how we mitigate because I imagine– and I saw the statement from the department yesterday talking about the potential support for affected industries– But when we look at the details now, what does this mean in practical terms? So we had, you know, certain industries that were sort of receiving this preferential treatment, and now what happens?
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Speaker 3: Are we going to see.
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Speaker 2: Sort of the added, what, 3.5 or thereabout percent in tariffs because we are no longer part of the preferential agreement? How does it work practically? How does it then affect the industries on the ground?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I mean, I've been quite surprised by some of the commentary. There's some people who think that the U.S. has shut its market completely to South Africa. That's not the case. We've been moved from a preferential tariff to most favored nation tariff status, which brings us in line with countries like Chile, Peru, and others who are exporting into the U.S.
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Speaker 2: Market.
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Speaker 3: It equates to roughly around 3.5% bump up on any existing tariffs, bearing in mind that the Liberation Day tariffs had already slapped a 12.5% tariff increase on a large majority of the goods. I think it's going to have sectoral impacts in particularly agriculture and not in agriculture in its entirety. I think certain parts of the citrus industry that are very heavily reliant on the U.S. market, I think it's going to have an impact on auto. We had very favorable auto tariffs in there. And the extent to which we're going to be able to redirect those or make them more competitive is going to be important. So I certainly don't want to say that there's nothing to worry about. There's lots to worry about. And as I said, trade is about addition, not subtractions, but finding more markets, not less markets. But it also underscores why the diversification is going to be so fundamentally important going forward. And certainly as my time as agriculture minister, and don't worry, I won't be around at 11 o'clock to hear how to get your old job back. But it's something we were very involved with when I was Ag Minister, finding new markets for South African products. And it's about deepening and widening existing trade relations, but also looking for new opportunities. And I think this ago, uncertainty of the last two years has forced South Africa out of a sense of complacency and forced us to go and look for new markets. And I think that there's There's things to mine out there in the world that are important, and I think that's a large part of where our focus is going to have to be over the coming months. That's not to say we don't work on our relationship with the United States. I think it's very important to have a relationship with the United States. They're a very big market. We remain having access to that market, and I think that maybe the time has come for us to start looking at trying to negotiate a bilateral agreement with the U.S. That will bring the big C that is so important that's been missing recently. the last three or four years with all this to and fro, and that's certainty. It'll allow industries to plan better, it'll remove the uncertainty, and I think give us a bit more runway going forward.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I interviewed the Citrus organization, their association earlier on, just during the open line, and one of the things they argue is, of course, yes, this is not doom and gloom.
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Speaker 3: The U.S.
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Speaker 2: Has not shut us out. We still have access to their market, but they're saying that when you look at the most favored nations and the tariffs What they've enjoyed being part of AGOA is that they were not on the same, you know, level playing field, so to speak, with, you know, the other citrus producers. So this preferential treatment sort of gave them that, you know, added advantage and the edge.
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Speaker 3: And that's what they're really crying about. Yes, of course. And they're absolutely right. And as I said, there's some particularly industry focuses. The Western Cape, particularly the citrus industry in the Western Cape, are very heavily exposed. Total exposure from, I think, citrus is around 3% to 5% of our whole market. But there's obviously big concentrations. But here's some things we can do, Clement. I mean, we now have to compete on an even footing. Let's start with the things we can fix. Let's fix the Cape Town port, for instance. Our stone fruit export has lost a billion rand last year because of port inefficiencies. There's something we can do immediately to make the margins better for our producers and try and compensate for some of that competitive loss there by making sure our ports are more efficient and effective to get our goods to market quicker and to start doing the things that are in our control. The US is a sovereign country. I mean we will never have control over their ultimate decisions but what we do have control over is some of the things we can as our own sovereign country fix and I think the Cape Town port particularly for agri-exports is a huge stumbling block to expansion and growth and And there's an area where we do have influence that we can intervene in and look at fixing it and making sure that we bring greater efficiencies, particularly if we're going to be competing now on an even footage with places like Chile, Peru, Brazil and others.
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Speaker 2: Do you see any potential support now in the interim while we fix the other longstanding issues? like assistance to some of the affected areas. What does that look like? Well, look, I mean, it's very complicated.
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Speaker 3: You're going to, I mean, the moment you start doing that, you're going to run into trouble with the poultry producers. You're going to run into trouble with meat producers and the like. And pretty soon your budget then gets consumed with those sorts of things rather than where they should be being spent, which is on finding new markets, which is on trade promotion. Are we, you know, is that money going to be better spent putting in-store displays in ASEAN countries where we're really promoting South African fruits and the like to promote more exports there. So I think that any assistance is going to have to be looked at on a balance of where is that money going to be best spent in order to ensure the longer-term sustainability and viability and profitability of that particular sector.
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Speaker 2: So when it comes to the diversification of the markets– I mean, yes, we need to look for new markets, but what are we looking at? I argued earlier with the listeners that I don't think we have fully explored the African continental free trade area. I mean, that agreement was there, it was signed, but are we truly exploring the market that is the African continent? So when we talk about new markets, where are we looking? Because one expert once told me when you discuss these markets, you have to consider the costs of the access and the consumer buying power of those alternative markets.
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Speaker 3: Africa, according to our butterfly strategy, is fundamentally important. It is our major focus. But there's a lot of work still to be done on the African Continental Free Trade Agreement to be able to move goods and services around the continent And that is why tariff harmonization, being able to have common phytosanitary regulations, which all represent non-tariff barriers to effective trade in Africa. And then, of course, the cost of transport, which is why we've been so strong on corridor development. How do you create the linkages to be able to move it around? And then also, Clement, another thing we need to look at is regional. SADC now is the same size the European Union was at its foundation. Are we really exploiting SADC to its best opportunity to be able to move products around, market products and the like? So Africa remains a very important part of the strategy. There are constraints. There remain far too many non-tariff barriers. And I don't think we've learned yet the importance of the seamless and easy move of goods and services. Then I think the ASEAN and Middle East are huge opportunities for South Africa that we haven't even really begun to scratch the surface of. And that certainly was... a focus I had when I was at Agri, but I've also carried through now with Department of Trade Industry and Competition to look at how we can open up those markets. And we've made some significant progress there in places like Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, Philippines, and the like. And we've got to keep plowing away at that so that we can create those markets because that's where you get the value add for our producers and our farmers. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Do you– Do you think that South Africa should even bother to appeal this decision by the U.S.? I think we have, what, about 60 days or so to appeal.
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Speaker 3: Is it worth it? Is it worth the fight? Look, I mean, you know, I'm one of those people who, you know, fights to the last dog does. But I think we've got to realize we've got a geopolitical problem here. It's not only South Africa. I think the U.S. have made their position abundantly clear. But that's not to say we mustn't keep trying. And, you know, we've got to keep talking to the U.S. They're an important market. And we've got to keep trying. But the reality is that I do think that we have reached the stage where perhaps we now need to start looking at trying to negotiate a bilateral agreement like other countries have done, like the UK have done with the US, so that you can bring that stability. You don't want to be in a situation where every year you're wondering, are you in, are you out? It makes it very difficult for farmers, for producers, for pack houses, for manufacturers to plan ahead. to be able to manage and tailor their production towards the market. And I think that having something more certain and more mature, I think, would stand South African goods dead. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: How generous were our offers, though, to the U.S.
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Speaker 3: During the negotiations? Did we make generous enough offers?
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Speaker 2: And what have been, like, sort of the red lines for us here as South Africa? I know Minister Paks Tawu has said, the department drew the line around two main political issues, land reform and racial transformation, and that those were non-negotiable.
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Speaker 3: Look, I mean, I think there were a number of backwards and forwards. We now see these new demands that have been put on the table from the press statement yesterday around things like corruption, around things like who we trade and do business with in the rest of the world. So it's been pretty much a moving target. I think we went back to the USTR and accompanied Minister Taal in our first meeting with Ambassador Greer at the USTR when we visited Washington and the White House. I think we've been very generous. Certainly I was Agriculture Minister at the time. Much to anger and annoyance of our local producers, we gave the US self-lift, self-ban on avian influenza, which was something that they were very worried about. We've created preferential access to the market, a number of things. We've extended the favorable import tariffs to them. But I think that what's happened in the U.S. and our other countries around the world are experiencing that as well, most notably Canada, that the trade and politics have now collided and are so deeply enmeshed that it's going to be very difficult to separate them, certainly under the current administration.
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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
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Speaker 3: In the past, we've always separated trade out from political issues. The two are now collided, and it's caused a great deal of turbulence in the trade environment around the world. But as I said, you can't be a sailor that curses a sea. This is the new normal. We have to navigate it, and we've got to navigate in a way that puts our own interests as a country first. And I think if we're doing so in a way that doesn't tread on the sovereignty of other countries– but at the same time respecting that we also have sovereignty as South Africa that needs to be respected in these negotiations.
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Speaker 2: Absolutely. How are the different industries doing, though, since the Liberation Day tariffs? Are they holding up?
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Speaker 3: They're holding up. You've seen agri-exports have been fined. There's a few industries that took a bit of a knock when we had the 30%. But when it got dialed back down to the 12.5%, there's still ability for us to squeeze out margin and market with that. Obviously, as I said, where people are heavily exposed, like in some of the places in the Western Cape, we're going to have to look at ways in which you create the marketing assistance, the displacement assistance to get those products to new markets. But generally, we've been faring. My big worry is auto. That was a big benefit.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: BMW was able to land X3s in the US market cheaper than they could produce them in Spartanburg in the US. And I think that's going to cause some ripples there. But I also think that what we need to do is to realize sometimes that we have to put South Africa first as well. And that speaks both to domestically but also internationally. And I don't think it's helped. having South Africans abroad decampaigning South Africa in the way that's been done. I think it's fed into a large part of the narratives that have been created there. And I think it's been unfortunate. I've always adopted the position, even when I was the leader of the opposition, that when you go abroad, you go abroad and you bat for your country and you put South Africa first. Because this thing's going to have real world impact on people. It's going to have impact on the factory floor. It's going to have impacts in the orchards. I'm very comfortable to account for what I've done over the last year and a half to put South Africa first. And I wonder if other people are going to be able to look, unemployed factory workers, farmers who now have a financial difficulty, and farm workers in the eye with the same level of confidence about what they've done over the last year and a half.
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Speaker 2: I mean, the irony is that the very same people who We're decampaining this country abroad. The very same people now complaining because, you know, some of the people who paid to be part of their membership are now complaining that this is going to affect us.
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Speaker 1: Correct.
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Speaker 3: And I don't think the decampaining has helped. We were in a difficult situation with the U.S. And then to have members wearing your own jersey, going around the back of the goals and assisting, you know, and actively agitating against your own country. your own workers, your own farmers, and your own farm workers, I think has been distinctly unhelpful. And I hope there's going to be some lessons learned from this. That, I mean, when we go out and we become world-facing, that we do it. And that's not to say, Clement, that there are not big problems in South Africa. We know there are problems with BBBEE. We know there are problems with violent farm attacks. And I think that's been brought into question again and into clear focus this week with this brutal attack on the farm. We know we've got problems with gangsterism and crime. And we have to deal with these things. But I don't think it helps when your own team are busy going behind and making things difficult.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got some thoughts and comments coming from our listeners. I want to get to them in a moment. But I want to ask before we get there, though, because I was there in the White House when you were there with the president yesterday. And I do remember after the statement you made, there were, you know, some people were like, how dare he deny that there is a genocide? Because some people felt you were denying that. I mean, some people, of course, were praising you for being firm in front even of Trump as a white man saying, we've got our problems, but a genocide is not one of them. Do you think that landed you in trouble in some way?
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Speaker 3: Oh, certainly. Certainly amongst the AfriMega right-wing crowd. And it's still something that's marked me on my back as, The singer Adam Tuss, I think, has been going on about. I never said South Africa doesn't have a problem with farm murders. I said very clearly we've got a problem with rural crime. But I think that if you misdiagnose a problem, you're never going to have the right medicine to fix it. And I think a white genocide is a misdiagnosis of the problem we have in South Africa. We have a crime problem. The greatest burden borne by crime in the country, young black and colored men, 18 to 35. But that doesn't negate the fact that we have a violent rural crime problem and that farm attacks are brutal, as we've seen with this farmer having his ears cut. off in the most brutal way and we should all condemn those things we should all speak out against them but I think saying now there's a white genocide when there's no empirical evidence to point to that I think is a misdiagnosis of the problem and we will never get to solving the real problems if we continue to misdiagnose it.
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Speaker 2: All right, let's go to some WhatsApps now.
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Speaker 3: 072-702-1702.
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Speaker 4: Good morning, Klemza Mpohia. Klemza, can you just get the minister to comment on this? I'm not trying to diminish your goal in any sense or form, but it only contributed 0.06% of the country's GDP. And yes, it is important, but like Bongani said, that like talks of, Akua exit started back in 2014.
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Speaker 3: So we should have prepared better for this. We should have known that it was going to end.
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Speaker 4: And I think, yes, as much as like the minister said that we do need it, trade is about expansion, but we should have been prepared and explored other markets like Africa, Asia, India, and so forth, so that we are better prepared and just diversifying our income streams and not solely reliant on the United States, because I think this is why we find ourselves in this problem.
00:21:05
Speaker 1: Being reliant on one country.
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Speaker 5: Hi, Clement. I'm loving this conversation with Johnstian Hazen. By the way, Johnstian Hazen, welcome back to the Clement Manatella Show. We're loving this conversation. You've missed so much by not participating in the Clement Manatella Show. Welcome back. And don't ever, ever, ever decide to not speak to Clement again. He has a great platform and having you on the show is important. Because you're a part of the leadership in South Africa.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, my listeners don't forget. Yeah, I know. Absolutely. Well, that's why he's here. They're keeping the receipts. They are. They've got the receipts. All right.
00:21:47
Speaker 2: There's a question that was asked about readiness. And of course, guys, I mean, obviously, building up new markets doesn't take two months, not even a year. There's a lot that goes into it. But we should have known and prepared for this moment, were we?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. I think we've been actively diversifying. I've spent basically the last two years doing exactly that. This new landmark deal on stone fruit with China for the first time ever. First person to ever do it in the history of China's trade. Five different types of fruits in one trade agreement on stone fruit. Game changer. Apples into Thailand, grapes into the Philippines, table grapes into the Philippines. increasing our citrus quotas in places like Japan and the Middle East. We've been doing it. But as I said, I have no joy in as small or as insignificant as some people may think it is. We're in a tight spot economically here in South Africa. Our GDP is nothing to write home about. Our economic growth is way too slow, and we have far too many people unemployed. And so even losing that little bit of edge, it will all say in Afrikaans, biki, biki, mark buyer. And the more you lose on these small things. So we've got to focus on trade as an addition rather than a subtraction. Deepening and widening existing trade agreements, actively going on the hunt for deals in other countries. It's also why I spent two weeks in Europe in the last trying to find diversified markets for South Africa and new opportunities as well because we have to start looking ahead about the industries of the future and future opportunities for South Africa beyond a go. And I believe there's some incredible niches out there that will allow South Africa to compete in industry, in agro-processing, into places like Africa, Europe. the Middle East, and the ASEAN area.
00:23:46
Speaker 2: Okay, so we were not folding our arms. The work had already been done. No, the work had been done.
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Speaker 3: And you're right, it doesn't happen overnight, but we've moved very quickly in some of these instances. Great. It's 10.31.
00:23:55
Speaker 6: 7.02.
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Speaker 2: The Clement Mania Taylor Show.
00:24:00
Speaker 3: Let's walk the talk.
00:24:02
Speaker 2: 23 minutes before 11 o'clock, we are in conversation this hour with John Steehan-Hazen, the Deputy Minister of Trade, Industry, and Competition. And I see some of your WhatsApps that are coming through on 0727021702. I'll get to them in a moment. I want to quickly, just on the automotive aftermarket, just address this quickly before we move on. We import about 107 or so billion rand worth of replacement automotive parts. What do you think is preventing us as a country from manufacturing these components locally?
00:24:39
Speaker 3: There's been a number of things, Clement. I think that Even the most naive person couldn't deny the fact that South Africa has deindustrialized over the last 15 to 20 years to the point where we've lost a lot of that industrial capacity. And I think that there's an inability to do so. I think we've also, through the structuring of our education system, abandoned artisans, boilermakers, fitters, turners, all of who are essential for the production of those types of things. And these are obviously areas which we're busy as government now trying to address. But I do believe that there is a lot of scope for us to do a lot more local manufacturing. And certainly we've seen, whether it's in Chuanai, whether it is in Itekwene, where you have a vibrant motor sector, motor manufacturing sector, around them have sprung up aftermarket OEM providers, equipment providers, around this market. And I think we could be doing a lot more. And that certainly was the thrust of my comments at Auto Mechanica in the last week where I was lucky enough to be able to speak to CEOs of major manufacturers as well as the entire aftermarket sector. And all of them see this as a growth sector. They see it as a sunrise sector in South Africa. But we've got to reindustrialize, and that means we have to have honest conversations about things like the price of electricity, the cost of doing business in South Africa, and again, the efficiency and effectiveness of transport and export and import infrastructure. And I think if we can get the balance of those things right again, I think that we can start manufacturing in South Africa at a much bigger scale. And this is important because there's very few ways you absorb the type and shape of labor and employment we have in South Africa. It's through agriculture, it's through tourism, and it's through manufacturing. And that's why we can't just simply throw up our hands and say, well, we can't manufacture in South Africa. We have to. We've got to create the employment that manufacturing absorbs in the economy.
00:26:49
Speaker 2: All right. Here are some WhatsApps that have come in.
00:26:51
Speaker 3: 0727021702. Good evening.
00:26:54
Speaker 7: Yo, listening to Sten Hazen.
00:26:59
Speaker 8: Yeah.
00:27:00
Speaker 7: I suppose people evolve and change. I must say I'm taken aback by his level of maturity and and his level of foresight, and he's putting country first.
00:27:17
Speaker 9: Yeah, Mr.
00:27:19
Speaker 7: Stenheisen is maturing, and he's growing in leadership. I must say, this is a different Stenheisen. Actually, it's a different DA that I'm hearing.
00:27:32
Speaker 3: Thank you. Interesting. Do you... Do you think you've matured? Well, I'm 50 years old. I'm hardly a starry-eyed revolutionary anymore. But I would say, look, I mean, yeah, I think people do mature in politics. And I would say this. I certainly think that since the advent of the GNU, it's forced many of us to take a look at the way in which we do our politics. In an environment where coalitions are going to be fundamentally important, I think finding constructive ways to work together and to solve some of the problems we're facing as a country are going to be important. You can't go in wanting to punch everybody in the face. You've got to go in in a way in which you try and bring as many people as possible together around a common set of objectives that you want to achieve for the country and move forward. So I would say probably my last two years in the GNU, scars and slings and arrows aside, has led to a bit of a maturing and seeing that. You know, if South Africa fails, it doesn't matter whether you're AFRI, MAGA. It doesn't matter whether you're ANC, PAC, DA, IFP, EFF. We're all going to sink together. And so I do think that our politics particularly does require a greater level of maturity, particularly as we enter this fragmented coalition era. And it is going to demand more maturity from our political leaders and as we realize we're not going to get our own way on everything all the time, but that we have to start trying to unite and work around values, principles, and key objectives that we want to achieve together. And I certainly think that it's something I've learned in studying coalitions abroad. It's certainly something I've learned the hard way here in South Africa about how you manage coalitions. Yeah.
00:29:22
Speaker 2: Even Shaleen Radna on the WhatsApp line says, oh, Clement, what a great conversation. So informative. and educational. I think Mr. Stinhazen has found his niche. That's a message there from Shaleen. And then let me just play this one last voice note on trade, and then we'll move on to other things.
00:29:46
Speaker 3: Hi, Clement and the team.
00:29:48
Speaker 10: Minister, I've heard some of you suggesting that we need to find alternative markets. China, India, Africa. The question is, do you think Africa has a market or a buying power? Because having a demand doesn't necessarily mean you have buying power. Secondly, I haven't heard you trying to prioritize local markets. as an alternative, especially in the citrus industry. Don't you think that if producers try to revise their own pricing, can benefit through local market?
00:30:37
Speaker 3: David in Marowich. Thank you, David. I think David makes a good point about local markets. These are very important, but our local market is saturated, which is why you have to look across borders and across oceans. It's also where the premium is. And if you look at one of the most catalytic things in terms of our agriculture sector over the last two decades, it's been the ability to be able to take excellent quality products to other markets. And that's where farmers get the premium. And that's why there is such a strong focus. Of course, the local market is important, but you reach a saturation point there and The reality is our fruits and our manufactured products realize better prices abroad and across borders. So I don't think it's an either-or. I think it is an and that you've got to provide into the local market. The local market is very important. But how do we expand that? And that's why I'm very passionate about how we use SADC far smarter in a way that allows us to ensure that the hole in SADC is bigger than the sum of the parts because when you're creating those opportunities– for people who are manufacturing in Namibia to feed into production and putting together in South African manufacturing, you create a much stronger system. And that's how the European Union has been able to develop into one of the strongest blocks. It's how the ASEAN region has been able to develop into one of the stronger blocks. And I think that regionalization and continentalization and internationalization are all going to be key strategies. But of course, I mean, you have to have a local market. But the reality is our market was never built for 68 million people, our manufacturing sector. It's built for a much larger thing because what that brings then with the regionalization and continentalization is scale. And when you get the scale right, then you can start to compete. And that's one of the reasons why it's impossible for us to compete with China on washing machines and these things because they've got the scale. We don't have the scale if we only look within the borders of our own country. If we want to achieve scale in textiles, in manufacturing, in defense manufacturing, you've got to open up these regions and the continent.
00:32:52
Speaker 2: I've got someone who's asking about your view on the deputy ministers. Has that also matured? Please can you ask him that, given that he has in the past said deputy ministers are a waste of money?
00:33:04
Speaker 3: I've never said deputy ministers are a waste of money. I think that's actually a trope. I think that you don't necessarily have to have a deputy minister in every department. And that has been our approach in the past. But certainly in trade industry and competition, there's a reason there's two ministers. It's a massive portfolio. And I've been absolutely astounded since my arrival at the parliament just how wide and varied this department is from trade to manufacturing to competition to legislation to regulation. I mean, I've got entities reporting to me that people that determine whether a centimeter is a centimeter. I never even knew these things existed beforehand. So there is a really large department, and I think that that's where deputy ministers can play a role is providing support. I have some very key delegations given to me by Minister Tao. Those are my responsibilities, and I'm out there doing them every single day.
00:34:00
Speaker 2: Often politicians don't want to make this about their feelings right when you get demoted or someone moves you from a particular position but i do wonder like how you deal with something like that i mean you were removed as agriculture minister i mean you seem to really enjoy what you do just hearing you speak about it like you've embraced it with both with both hands how was that process for.
00:34:22
Speaker 3: You it was tough i'm not gonna lie to you i was deeply hurt at both the A personal level. I felt a deep sense of betrayal. I felt that people that I'd been there for in their tough times in their careers and been there for when trouble was on the horizon sort of walked away and washed their hands. And I think I've been on the record about that. But look, I mean, I love serving my country. I love serving South Africa. I've done it since I was 22 years old. I'm not going to sit in the corner and cry like a baby for days on end. You take your licks and you move on. And I've moved on. I'm enjoying the work at DTIC. There's a lot of synergy with what I was doing before at agriculture, finding new markets. I've really found some really exciting niches. Defense manufacturing is something I really believe is something we can really harness in South Africa. Agro-processing, medical manufacturing. Do you know we make the world's best dental implants right here in Gauteng, the world's best. They're going to the best hospitals in the world, manufactured right here in South Africa. So there's so many great stories out there that we haven't even begun to touch. And if we get the policy right, if we get the levers right, we reduce the cost of doing business, we have efficient, effective transport in ports and harbors, I tell you, we are really going to revolutionize the way South Africa goes forward.
00:35:53
Speaker 2: So the betrayal you speak of, has it changed anything in how you relate within the Democratic Alliance? Because I must say, one of the things that surprised me is when you spoke of the betrayal, I think the words you've used is that your head was fed to a bay mob of hyenas. And normally when you would ask around in the Democratic Alliance, oh, do you think Jordan Hill Lewis will contest John? Or they'll tell you, no, those people are friends. They get along very well. That's something we had a lot whenever we would call a lot of people trying to figure out what's happening. So where do you think things went wrong there?
00:36:30
Speaker 3: Look, as I said to you, I mean, ever since I was in the White House and I spoke truth and I mean, people were expecting me to get up and contradict the president in front of the president of another country I spoke my truth. And how I've called the situation is I saw it. And I think I've had a big target on my back from the right wing as a result of that, the AfriMega crew, who've spent the last three to four years prior to that carefully crafting and cultivating their message. And I think the pressure that they put on the leadership of the DA was immense. But it hasn't gone away. I see they were now the other day calling for Ryan Coetzee to be fired. They were then calling for somebody else in the party to be fired, whoever they don't like. And the reality is that, I mean, I think that they created a pressure point in the party and decisions were made. But look, I mean, that's yesterday's milk. I've moved on. The party's moved on. And for all of our sake, we've got to move on. There's work to be done. And we can't tarry for a moment along the way. We've got to get people into work. We've got to create industries in the country. And that's what my focus is.
00:37:41
Speaker 2: Did you face similar pressures as the leader of an organization that is in the GNU with the ANC? Like pressures from organizations, you know, like you say, the Afrimaga. And how did you withstand and not.
00:37:55
Speaker 3: Handle some of the pressures? Yes, of course. And, you know, look, I mean, I think we have to accept, Clement, and what many people forget, there were 30% of the country voted no to end apartheid. There is a latent... set of people out there who don't believe in democracy, who don't believe in a multi-racial, multi-party government that didn't want apartheid to end. And they didn't go away. They didn't magically disappear in 1994. They're around. They're out there in communities. I think they've been emboldened a lot by the Trump administrations and we're starting to see them speaking up and speaking out. But, you know, the reality is that I've never been part of that of that mindset. Um, that's never been my crew and, and I will continue to stand up and speak what I believe. And yes, I mean, they, they might like it. They feel we, the GNU was a sellout to the ANC. And I asked them, well, what, what would you have done in our position? Would you have just simply handed the country over to what I called at the time, the doomsday coalition? I was honest at our party Congress in May about the moonshot and the doomsday. I executed that strategy. When the time came for the adults in the room to sit around a table and have a mature discussion about how South Africa is going to go forward, I put a lot on the line personally and professionally to get the GNU over the line. And I have no regrets. I think it was the right decision at the time. I still think it's the right decision. I think South Africa is a better place today because of the GNU. than it was the night before the 2024 election.
00:39:32
Speaker 2: Do you think some of those people who voted not to end apartheid have somehow found a home in the DA as well?
00:39:39
Speaker 3: Look, I think every party is a broad church. I have no doubt there are people who perhaps share some of those views in all parties across the spectrum. I think that, you know, that is the reality of politics. And, you know, no party, I think, in this country is absolutely homogenous. And you've got different strains. That's why, you know, you have Tea Party Republicans and you have Social Democrat Democrats. And I think those are starting to play out in their politics. You have One Nation Tories. You have Brexiteers. I think in every party you have those conflicts. And it's about You know, understanding how to unite and lead the whole. And I would like to think that during my time as leader of the DA, I brought the middle ground together to be able to steer us in the right direction. And forming the GNU, I think, was absolutely the right decision to make. Yeah.
00:40:31
Speaker 2: And I'm going to go to some calls and WhatsApps now.
00:40:33
Speaker 3: Peter, I'm coming to you in a moment. Quick one, though. Have you now buried the hatchet with Jordan and Lewis? Have you guys spoken? Jordan is the leader of my party, yes. Of course, we spoke.
00:40:40
Speaker 2: We have to work together.
00:40:41
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:40:43
Speaker 3: Obviously, you know, the bonds of friendship perhaps have been strained. But, you know, we've got a job to do together. And that's it. I mean, the DA is not a, you know, not a friendship circle or a country club. It's a political party. We've got work to do. And for me, I've always focused on the work. If you make friends along the way, that's a bonus. But the work is what is. And the people of South Africa are the things that matter. And the relationship with Tony Leon, where would you put it now? Oh, I have no relationship with Tony Leon.
00:41:11
Speaker 1: No.
00:41:13
Speaker 3: I think there were some bridges crossed there that went beyond the pale, and I have no relationship with it. Got it. Peter, you're in Sentin. Good morning. Yes, John.
00:41:27
Speaker 8: Now that, as they say, you are matured and you see things from a different perspective, I must say, really, I like this version of Charleston Hazen. The way now you talk about the GNU, the way you talk about how you view South African politics, what would you say, I mean, what's your view now in the way DA got rid of Mosi Maimani?
00:41:56
Speaker 3: Oh, you want to check if his views have changed on that, Peter? All right. Thank you. Thank you for your call in Senton. Yeah, well, look, I mean, let me just say, I mean, I was Moosey's chief whip in the DA. I spent a lot of political capital helping Moosey get elected and then supporting him while he was the leader. I didn't want him to go. My advice to him was not to leave the DA. But then there was a report. But the report was, you know, done by Tony Leon and a few other people. Yeah. And he chose the people who did the report. And as a leader, I suppose you've got to live by that. My advice to him was if you're going to stand down as leader, stay on in the DA. You can rebuild. I mean I'm a prime example of that. I mean everybody thought when I stood down as KZN leader, my political career was over. I came back to parliament, rebuilt, and went on to lead the party. And I think Moosey had talent. I think he still does have talent. I enjoyed my time working with him. We developed a friendship and a professional relationship. I think we were a good combination in parliament. But, you know, the real politic catches you and leaders who take parties backwards have to account.
00:43:06
Speaker 2: Do you think it was unfair in how he was?
00:43:08
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of unfairness in politics, but the reality is that's the nature of the game. Yeah.
00:43:12
Speaker 8: Yeah.
00:43:12
Speaker 2: You guys are tough for being in this situation. Should we call it industry?
00:43:17
Speaker 8: King.
00:43:17
Speaker 3: Well, they say it's the second oldest profession, and it has a lot in common with the first. Yeah. King, you are in Lone Hill. Good morning. Hello, King.
00:43:28
Speaker 9: Hi, hi, hi.
00:43:30
Speaker 3: Clement? Sure, go ahead.
00:43:31
Speaker 9: You know, I've been listening over to your conversation with John, and to be honest, I'm very impressed by the guy.
00:43:40
Speaker 2: Jeez, so many people are impressed this morning.
00:43:42
Speaker 3: Should have come on your show earlier.
00:43:43
Speaker 7: Yeah.
00:43:45
Speaker 3: Go ahead, King.
00:43:48
Speaker 9: Can you hear me?
00:43:48
Speaker 3: Yes, we can. Go ahead.
00:43:49
Speaker 9: I was just saying, I'm so impressed. The guy sounds so sincere and genuine. You know, he sounds mature as well. I'm not a DA member. I'm actually very far from it. But I like what the guy is saying. I like the way he talks. I like the fact that he seems to own up to his past that.
00:44:14
Speaker 3: The facts, basically.
00:44:15
Speaker 9: I like that. Please keep it up. I won't be voting the ANY, but I like what the guy is saying.
00:44:22
Speaker 3: All right. King in Lone Hill. Thank you so much for your call. Let's wrap up with a voice note.
00:44:28
Speaker 1: Hi, Clement. I would like to be Mr. Anonymous.
00:44:33
Speaker 6: Thank you very much for bringing the gentleman to come here and present us an excellent view.
00:44:41
Speaker 1: I just want to ask one question. Does he have any form.
00:44:47
Speaker 6: Of influence in the GNU so that we can at least be able to bring back that skills empowerment? To all the people in South Africa who are interested in the technical issues, like in the manufacturing, like you actually spoke about the issue of having, say, a motor car manufacturing with the after parts.
00:45:19
Speaker 1: Like we need those people.
00:45:21
Speaker 6: Does he have any influence on the GNU or it is just his voice is just in the wind and nobody's listening?
00:45:28
Speaker 1: Please.
00:45:29
Speaker 2: Well, he's in the trade and industry department.
00:45:32
Speaker 3: Well, I saved you 2% on VAT last year. I think that's pretty good influence. I would just say this, that, I mean, look, absolutely. And through cabinet committees and through departments, we've got lots of influence. And this is something I'm passionate about. We've lost a lot of skills in the country. We're only going to get those skills back if we build a skills pipeline in the country. And that means we've got to focus on what happens at the beginning of the pipe with education, vocational training, Not everyone has to wear a white collar and tie and sit in a corner office. And having been now in Germany and Austria and others, and countries just sent a study tour over there to look at their dual medium of education. They were both technical vocations and academic vocations are respected exactly the same way we need to do that. And then we need to work with industry to help pull through that pipeline. And I think that's where there's a greater role for government to play. I think we need to really look at the CETA system. I don't think it's producing the skills and the type of skills that industry is looking for. And I think that in a partnership with the industries that are wanting to grow, I think we can build a pipeline that will then create that opportunity to have boilermakers, fitters and turners, mechanics, plumbers, electricians, Coming through that thing, and goodness knows our municipalities need them. There's no shortage of jobs. I was told as well that there's 6,000 jobs waiting there in just one manufacturing sector alone, and that's qualified mechanics. There's 6,000 jobs, they told us at Auto Mechanica, that they can't fill because they don't have qualified people to do it. And there's 6,000 people who could find work tomorrow after just a three-year course. in mechanics.
00:47:12
Speaker 2: Let me wrap up with Toghazile on the water blindness assessment. Give this man his salary plus bonus. He is not acting, but he is a patriotic South African, a beacon of hope, not a politician, but a leader. Thank you so much for bringing him. Well, thank you, Toghazile, for the message. And thanks, John, for coming through to join us on the show and for fulfilling the promise you made.
00:47:32
Speaker 3: I look forward to the next time. Same here. I wish I'd been here 10 years ago. Whose fault is that? Thank you, Judd Stenhouse. And it's a minute after 11.
Speaker 1: You're with Clement Manatella.
00:00:03
Speaker 2: 702. But right now, we start our conversation with the Deputy Minister of Trade, Industry and Competition, John Steenhazen, who's joining us in studio this morning. And there's just a lot to talk about, right? And I will, of course, start with the issues around trade, given the decision that the US took yesterday. But we'll be talking Really, a variety of conversations of different topics that we'll engage in in this hour. And that's why I want to invite you as well to join the chat. You can give me a call or send me a WhatsApp voice note if you want to join the chat. Maybe you've got a question for John or you want to weigh in on something. 011-883-0702 is the number to dial. If you want to send a WhatsApp text or voice note, 072702. 1-702-Johnston-Hazen. Welcome to studio.
00:00:54
Speaker 3: Good morning. Good morning, Clement. Great to be with you. And of course, great to be with your listeners. Great to chat to you.
00:01:00
Speaker 2: And one listener tweeted me earlier, I wasn't sure if you're going to come. He's like, Clement, are you sure he's going to come? And I said, yes, I am. This is a promise you made when we met last year that you'll come on the show. So thank you so much for fulfilling it.
00:01:12
Speaker 3: Imagine that, a politician who keeps his promises.
00:01:15
Speaker 2: That will be new. Okay, let's start with what's happening with our trade. We saw the announcement yesterday that as South Africa, we're going to be excluded from AGOA from January next year after 26 years of enjoying benefits from this preferential deal. And we'll get into the details in a moment. But I'm interested as someone who sort of was at some level involved even in negotiations with the U.S. administration, the Trump administration. How were the negotiations? Because the Minister of Trade and Industry indicated that he remains hopeful of a favorable outcome following the different engagements with U.S. officials over the past year.
00:01:58
Speaker 3: Were you expecting this outcome? Well, look, I don't think it's unexpected. And I think that certainly with the new administration in the U.S., you learn to expect the unexpected. And I think it's not only South Africa who's having to navigate very choppy waters. We've seen in this latest round it's Rwanda as well. But we've also seen similar with some of the European partners. We've seen it with Canada. And these are the new waters we have to navigate when it comes to the United States of America. And we will have to learn to navigate these uncertainties going forward. But certainly, I think there's been signaling from the U.S. for the last year and a half, two years. There's been backwards and forward negotiations between DTRC, South Africa's mission in the U.S., Around this, there's been asks, there's been counter proposals. But I think it's come to a head now and there's certainty on it. And it's not an ideal outcome. And we need to be honest about that. I know there's some people who are saying, oh, well, you know, there it is. Trade is about addition, not subtraction. And we shouldn't celebrate any setbacks on trade, particularly in a country like South Africa that is really trying to get its economy moving, trying to create employment. But I do think there are a number of things we're going to have to do in the weeks and months ahead now that can mitigate against it. But I suppose we have the certainty now, and that certainty allows us to plan to take these steps that we would need to over the coming months.
00:03:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll talk about how we mitigate because I imagine– and I saw the statement from the department yesterday talking about the potential support for affected industries– But when we look at the details now, what does this mean in practical terms? So we had, you know, certain industries that were sort of receiving this preferential treatment, and now what happens?
00:03:50
Speaker 3: Are we going to see.
00:03:51
Speaker 2: Sort of the added, what, 3.5 or thereabout percent in tariffs because we are no longer part of the preferential agreement? How does it work practically? How does it then affect the industries on the ground?
00:04:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I mean, I've been quite surprised by some of the commentary. There's some people who think that the U.S. has shut its market completely to South Africa. That's not the case. We've been moved from a preferential tariff to most favored nation tariff status, which brings us in line with countries like Chile, Peru, and others who are exporting into the U.S.
00:04:22
Speaker 2: Market.
00:04:22
Speaker 3: It equates to roughly around 3.5% bump up on any existing tariffs, bearing in mind that the Liberation Day tariffs had already slapped a 12.5% tariff increase on a large majority of the goods. I think it's going to have sectoral impacts in particularly agriculture and not in agriculture in its entirety. I think certain parts of the citrus industry that are very heavily reliant on the U.S. market, I think it's going to have an impact on auto. We had very favorable auto tariffs in there. And the extent to which we're going to be able to redirect those or make them more competitive is going to be important. So I certainly don't want to say that there's nothing to worry about. There's lots to worry about. And as I said, trade is about addition, not subtractions, but finding more markets, not less markets. But it also underscores why the diversification is going to be so fundamentally important going forward. And certainly as my time as agriculture minister, and don't worry, I won't be around at 11 o'clock to hear how to get your old job back. But it's something we were very involved with when I was Ag Minister, finding new markets for South African products. And it's about deepening and widening existing trade relations, but also looking for new opportunities. And I think this ago, uncertainty of the last two years has forced South Africa out of a sense of complacency and forced us to go and look for new markets. And I think that there's There's things to mine out there in the world that are important, and I think that's a large part of where our focus is going to have to be over the coming months. That's not to say we don't work on our relationship with the United States. I think it's very important to have a relationship with the United States. They're a very big market. We remain having access to that market, and I think that maybe the time has come for us to start looking at trying to negotiate a bilateral agreement with the U.S. That will bring the big C that is so important that's been missing recently. the last three or four years with all this to and fro, and that's certainty. It'll allow industries to plan better, it'll remove the uncertainty, and I think give us a bit more runway going forward.
00:06:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I interviewed the Citrus organization, their association earlier on, just during the open line, and one of the things they argue is, of course, yes, this is not doom and gloom.
00:06:41
Speaker 3: The U.S.
00:06:41
Speaker 2: Has not shut us out. We still have access to their market, but they're saying that when you look at the most favored nations and the tariffs What they've enjoyed being part of AGOA is that they were not on the same, you know, level playing field, so to speak, with, you know, the other citrus producers. So this preferential treatment sort of gave them that, you know, added advantage and the edge.
00:07:05
Speaker 3: And that's what they're really crying about. Yes, of course. And they're absolutely right. And as I said, there's some particularly industry focuses. The Western Cape, particularly the citrus industry in the Western Cape, are very heavily exposed. Total exposure from, I think, citrus is around 3% to 5% of our whole market. But there's obviously big concentrations. But here's some things we can do, Clement. I mean, we now have to compete on an even footing. Let's start with the things we can fix. Let's fix the Cape Town port, for instance. Our stone fruit export has lost a billion rand last year because of port inefficiencies. There's something we can do immediately to make the margins better for our producers and try and compensate for some of that competitive loss there by making sure our ports are more efficient and effective to get our goods to market quicker and to start doing the things that are in our control. The US is a sovereign country. I mean we will never have control over their ultimate decisions but what we do have control over is some of the things we can as our own sovereign country fix and I think the Cape Town port particularly for agri-exports is a huge stumbling block to expansion and growth and And there's an area where we do have influence that we can intervene in and look at fixing it and making sure that we bring greater efficiencies, particularly if we're going to be competing now on an even footage with places like Chile, Peru, Brazil and others.
00:08:29
Speaker 2: Do you see any potential support now in the interim while we fix the other longstanding issues? like assistance to some of the affected areas. What does that look like? Well, look, I mean, it's very complicated.
00:08:42
Speaker 3: You're going to, I mean, the moment you start doing that, you're going to run into trouble with the poultry producers. You're going to run into trouble with meat producers and the like. And pretty soon your budget then gets consumed with those sorts of things rather than where they should be being spent, which is on finding new markets, which is on trade promotion. Are we, you know, is that money going to be better spent putting in-store displays in ASEAN countries where we're really promoting South African fruits and the like to promote more exports there. So I think that any assistance is going to have to be looked at on a balance of where is that money going to be best spent in order to ensure the longer-term sustainability and viability and profitability of that particular sector.
00:09:30
Speaker 2: So when it comes to the diversification of the markets– I mean, yes, we need to look for new markets, but what are we looking at? I argued earlier with the listeners that I don't think we have fully explored the African continental free trade area. I mean, that agreement was there, it was signed, but are we truly exploring the market that is the African continent? So when we talk about new markets, where are we looking? Because one expert once told me when you discuss these markets, you have to consider the costs of the access and the consumer buying power of those alternative markets.
00:10:07
Speaker 3: Africa, according to our butterfly strategy, is fundamentally important. It is our major focus. But there's a lot of work still to be done on the African Continental Free Trade Agreement to be able to move goods and services around the continent And that is why tariff harmonization, being able to have common phytosanitary regulations, which all represent non-tariff barriers to effective trade in Africa. And then, of course, the cost of transport, which is why we've been so strong on corridor development. How do you create the linkages to be able to move it around? And then also, Clement, another thing we need to look at is regional. SADC now is the same size the European Union was at its foundation. Are we really exploiting SADC to its best opportunity to be able to move products around, market products and the like? So Africa remains a very important part of the strategy. There are constraints. There remain far too many non-tariff barriers. And I don't think we've learned yet the importance of the seamless and easy move of goods and services. Then I think the ASEAN and Middle East are huge opportunities for South Africa that we haven't even really begun to scratch the surface of. And that certainly was... a focus I had when I was at Agri, but I've also carried through now with Department of Trade Industry and Competition to look at how we can open up those markets. And we've made some significant progress there in places like Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, Philippines, and the like. And we've got to keep plowing away at that so that we can create those markets because that's where you get the value add for our producers and our farmers. Yeah.
00:11:45
Speaker 2: Do you– Do you think that South Africa should even bother to appeal this decision by the U.S.? I think we have, what, about 60 days or so to appeal.
00:11:52
Speaker 3: Is it worth it? Is it worth the fight? Look, I mean, you know, I'm one of those people who, you know, fights to the last dog does. But I think we've got to realize we've got a geopolitical problem here. It's not only South Africa. I think the U.S. have made their position abundantly clear. But that's not to say we mustn't keep trying. And, you know, we've got to keep talking to the U.S. They're an important market. And we've got to keep trying. But the reality is that I do think that we have reached the stage where perhaps we now need to start looking at trying to negotiate a bilateral agreement like other countries have done, like the UK have done with the US, so that you can bring that stability. You don't want to be in a situation where every year you're wondering, are you in, are you out? It makes it very difficult for farmers, for producers, for pack houses, for manufacturers to plan ahead. to be able to manage and tailor their production towards the market. And I think that having something more certain and more mature, I think, would stand South African goods dead. Yeah.
00:12:55
Speaker 2: How generous were our offers, though, to the U.S.
00:12:57
Speaker 3: During the negotiations? Did we make generous enough offers?
00:13:01
Speaker 2: And what have been, like, sort of the red lines for us here as South Africa? I know Minister Paks Tawu has said, the department drew the line around two main political issues, land reform and racial transformation, and that those were non-negotiable.
00:13:19
Speaker 3: Look, I mean, I think there were a number of backwards and forwards. We now see these new demands that have been put on the table from the press statement yesterday around things like corruption, around things like who we trade and do business with in the rest of the world. So it's been pretty much a moving target. I think we went back to the USTR and accompanied Minister Taal in our first meeting with Ambassador Greer at the USTR when we visited Washington and the White House. I think we've been very generous. Certainly I was Agriculture Minister at the time. Much to anger and annoyance of our local producers, we gave the US self-lift, self-ban on avian influenza, which was something that they were very worried about. We've created preferential access to the market, a number of things. We've extended the favorable import tariffs to them. But I think that what's happened in the U.S. and our other countries around the world are experiencing that as well, most notably Canada, that the trade and politics have now collided and are so deeply enmeshed that it's going to be very difficult to separate them, certainly under the current administration.
00:14:29
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
00:14:30
Speaker 3: In the past, we've always separated trade out from political issues. The two are now collided, and it's caused a great deal of turbulence in the trade environment around the world. But as I said, you can't be a sailor that curses a sea. This is the new normal. We have to navigate it, and we've got to navigate in a way that puts our own interests as a country first. And I think if we're doing so in a way that doesn't tread on the sovereignty of other countries– but at the same time respecting that we also have sovereignty as South Africa that needs to be respected in these negotiations.
00:15:03
Speaker 2: Absolutely. How are the different industries doing, though, since the Liberation Day tariffs? Are they holding up?
00:15:11
Speaker 3: They're holding up. You've seen agri-exports have been fined. There's a few industries that took a bit of a knock when we had the 30%. But when it got dialed back down to the 12.5%, there's still ability for us to squeeze out margin and market with that. Obviously, as I said, where people are heavily exposed, like in some of the places in the Western Cape, we're going to have to look at ways in which you create the marketing assistance, the displacement assistance to get those products to new markets. But generally, we've been faring. My big worry is auto. That was a big benefit.
00:15:51
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:15:51
Speaker 3: BMW was able to land X3s in the US market cheaper than they could produce them in Spartanburg in the US. And I think that's going to cause some ripples there. But I also think that what we need to do is to realize sometimes that we have to put South Africa first as well. And that speaks both to domestically but also internationally. And I don't think it's helped. having South Africans abroad decampaigning South Africa in the way that's been done. I think it's fed into a large part of the narratives that have been created there. And I think it's been unfortunate. I've always adopted the position, even when I was the leader of the opposition, that when you go abroad, you go abroad and you bat for your country and you put South Africa first. Because this thing's going to have real world impact on people. It's going to have impact on the factory floor. It's going to have impacts in the orchards. I'm very comfortable to account for what I've done over the last year and a half to put South Africa first. And I wonder if other people are going to be able to look, unemployed factory workers, farmers who now have a financial difficulty, and farm workers in the eye with the same level of confidence about what they've done over the last year and a half.
00:17:11
Speaker 2: I mean, the irony is that the very same people who We're decampaining this country abroad. The very same people now complaining because, you know, some of the people who paid to be part of their membership are now complaining that this is going to affect us.
00:17:28
Speaker 1: Correct.
00:17:28
Speaker 3: And I don't think the decampaining has helped. We were in a difficult situation with the U.S. And then to have members wearing your own jersey, going around the back of the goals and assisting, you know, and actively agitating against your own country. your own workers, your own farmers, and your own farm workers, I think has been distinctly unhelpful. And I hope there's going to be some lessons learned from this. That, I mean, when we go out and we become world-facing, that we do it. And that's not to say, Clement, that there are not big problems in South Africa. We know there are problems with BBBEE. We know there are problems with violent farm attacks. And I think that's been brought into question again and into clear focus this week with this brutal attack on the farm. We know we've got problems with gangsterism and crime. And we have to deal with these things. But I don't think it helps when your own team are busy going behind and making things difficult.
00:18:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got some thoughts and comments coming from our listeners. I want to get to them in a moment. But I want to ask before we get there, though, because I was there in the White House when you were there with the president yesterday. And I do remember after the statement you made, there were, you know, some people were like, how dare he deny that there is a genocide? Because some people felt you were denying that. I mean, some people, of course, were praising you for being firm in front even of Trump as a white man saying, we've got our problems, but a genocide is not one of them. Do you think that landed you in trouble in some way?
00:19:05
Speaker 3: Oh, certainly. Certainly amongst the AfriMega right-wing crowd. And it's still something that's marked me on my back as, The singer Adam Tuss, I think, has been going on about. I never said South Africa doesn't have a problem with farm murders. I said very clearly we've got a problem with rural crime. But I think that if you misdiagnose a problem, you're never going to have the right medicine to fix it. And I think a white genocide is a misdiagnosis of the problem we have in South Africa. We have a crime problem. The greatest burden borne by crime in the country, young black and colored men, 18 to 35. But that doesn't negate the fact that we have a violent rural crime problem and that farm attacks are brutal, as we've seen with this farmer having his ears cut. off in the most brutal way and we should all condemn those things we should all speak out against them but I think saying now there's a white genocide when there's no empirical evidence to point to that I think is a misdiagnosis of the problem and we will never get to solving the real problems if we continue to misdiagnose it.
00:20:10
Speaker 2: All right, let's go to some WhatsApps now.
00:20:14
Speaker 3: 072-702-1702.
00:20:15
Speaker 4: Good morning, Klemza Mpohia. Klemza, can you just get the minister to comment on this? I'm not trying to diminish your goal in any sense or form, but it only contributed 0.06% of the country's GDP. And yes, it is important, but like Bongani said, that like talks of, Akua exit started back in 2014.
00:20:39
Speaker 3: So we should have prepared better for this. We should have known that it was going to end.
00:20:43
Speaker 4: And I think, yes, as much as like the minister said that we do need it, trade is about expansion, but we should have been prepared and explored other markets like Africa, Asia, India, and so forth, so that we are better prepared and just diversifying our income streams and not solely reliant on the United States, because I think this is why we find ourselves in this problem.
00:21:05
Speaker 1: Being reliant on one country.
00:21:07
Speaker 5: Hi, Clement. I'm loving this conversation with Johnstian Hazen. By the way, Johnstian Hazen, welcome back to the Clement Manatella Show. We're loving this conversation. You've missed so much by not participating in the Clement Manatella Show. Welcome back. And don't ever, ever, ever decide to not speak to Clement again. He has a great platform and having you on the show is important. Because you're a part of the leadership in South Africa.
00:21:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, my listeners don't forget. Yeah, I know. Absolutely. Well, that's why he's here. They're keeping the receipts. They are. They've got the receipts. All right.
00:21:47
Speaker 2: There's a question that was asked about readiness. And of course, guys, I mean, obviously, building up new markets doesn't take two months, not even a year. There's a lot that goes into it. But we should have known and prepared for this moment, were we?
00:22:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. I think we've been actively diversifying. I've spent basically the last two years doing exactly that. This new landmark deal on stone fruit with China for the first time ever. First person to ever do it in the history of China's trade. Five different types of fruits in one trade agreement on stone fruit. Game changer. Apples into Thailand, grapes into the Philippines, table grapes into the Philippines. increasing our citrus quotas in places like Japan and the Middle East. We've been doing it. But as I said, I have no joy in as small or as insignificant as some people may think it is. We're in a tight spot economically here in South Africa. Our GDP is nothing to write home about. Our economic growth is way too slow, and we have far too many people unemployed. And so even losing that little bit of edge, it will all say in Afrikaans, biki, biki, mark buyer. And the more you lose on these small things. So we've got to focus on trade as an addition rather than a subtraction. Deepening and widening existing trade agreements, actively going on the hunt for deals in other countries. It's also why I spent two weeks in Europe in the last trying to find diversified markets for South Africa and new opportunities as well because we have to start looking ahead about the industries of the future and future opportunities for South Africa beyond a go. And I believe there's some incredible niches out there that will allow South Africa to compete in industry, in agro-processing, into places like Africa, Europe. the Middle East, and the ASEAN area.
00:23:46
Speaker 2: Okay, so we were not folding our arms. The work had already been done. No, the work had been done.
00:23:50
Speaker 3: And you're right, it doesn't happen overnight, but we've moved very quickly in some of these instances. Great. It's 10.31.
00:23:55
Speaker 6: 7.02.
00:23:55
Speaker 2: The Clement Mania Taylor Show.
00:24:00
Speaker 3: Let's walk the talk.
00:24:02
Speaker 2: 23 minutes before 11 o'clock, we are in conversation this hour with John Steehan-Hazen, the Deputy Minister of Trade, Industry, and Competition. And I see some of your WhatsApps that are coming through on 0727021702. I'll get to them in a moment. I want to quickly, just on the automotive aftermarket, just address this quickly before we move on. We import about 107 or so billion rand worth of replacement automotive parts. What do you think is preventing us as a country from manufacturing these components locally?
00:24:39
Speaker 3: There's been a number of things, Clement. I think that Even the most naive person couldn't deny the fact that South Africa has deindustrialized over the last 15 to 20 years to the point where we've lost a lot of that industrial capacity. And I think that there's an inability to do so. I think we've also, through the structuring of our education system, abandoned artisans, boilermakers, fitters, turners, all of who are essential for the production of those types of things. And these are obviously areas which we're busy as government now trying to address. But I do believe that there is a lot of scope for us to do a lot more local manufacturing. And certainly we've seen, whether it's in Chuanai, whether it is in Itekwene, where you have a vibrant motor sector, motor manufacturing sector, around them have sprung up aftermarket OEM providers, equipment providers, around this market. And I think we could be doing a lot more. And that certainly was the thrust of my comments at Auto Mechanica in the last week where I was lucky enough to be able to speak to CEOs of major manufacturers as well as the entire aftermarket sector. And all of them see this as a growth sector. They see it as a sunrise sector in South Africa. But we've got to reindustrialize, and that means we have to have honest conversations about things like the price of electricity, the cost of doing business in South Africa, and again, the efficiency and effectiveness of transport and export and import infrastructure. And I think if we can get the balance of those things right again, I think that we can start manufacturing in South Africa at a much bigger scale. And this is important because there's very few ways you absorb the type and shape of labor and employment we have in South Africa. It's through agriculture, it's through tourism, and it's through manufacturing. And that's why we can't just simply throw up our hands and say, well, we can't manufacture in South Africa. We have to. We've got to create the employment that manufacturing absorbs in the economy.
00:26:49
Speaker 2: All right. Here are some WhatsApps that have come in.
00:26:51
Speaker 3: 0727021702. Good evening.
00:26:54
Speaker 7: Yo, listening to Sten Hazen.
00:26:59
Speaker 8: Yeah.
00:27:00
Speaker 7: I suppose people evolve and change. I must say I'm taken aback by his level of maturity and and his level of foresight, and he's putting country first.
00:27:17
Speaker 9: Yeah, Mr.
00:27:19
Speaker 7: Stenheisen is maturing, and he's growing in leadership. I must say, this is a different Stenheisen. Actually, it's a different DA that I'm hearing.
00:27:32
Speaker 3: Thank you. Interesting. Do you... Do you think you've matured? Well, I'm 50 years old. I'm hardly a starry-eyed revolutionary anymore. But I would say, look, I mean, yeah, I think people do mature in politics. And I would say this. I certainly think that since the advent of the GNU, it's forced many of us to take a look at the way in which we do our politics. In an environment where coalitions are going to be fundamentally important, I think finding constructive ways to work together and to solve some of the problems we're facing as a country are going to be important. You can't go in wanting to punch everybody in the face. You've got to go in in a way in which you try and bring as many people as possible together around a common set of objectives that you want to achieve for the country and move forward. So I would say probably my last two years in the GNU, scars and slings and arrows aside, has led to a bit of a maturing and seeing that. You know, if South Africa fails, it doesn't matter whether you're AFRI, MAGA. It doesn't matter whether you're ANC, PAC, DA, IFP, EFF. We're all going to sink together. And so I do think that our politics particularly does require a greater level of maturity, particularly as we enter this fragmented coalition era. And it is going to demand more maturity from our political leaders and as we realize we're not going to get our own way on everything all the time, but that we have to start trying to unite and work around values, principles, and key objectives that we want to achieve together. And I certainly think that it's something I've learned in studying coalitions abroad. It's certainly something I've learned the hard way here in South Africa about how you manage coalitions. Yeah.
00:29:22
Speaker 2: Even Shaleen Radna on the WhatsApp line says, oh, Clement, what a great conversation. So informative. and educational. I think Mr. Stinhazen has found his niche. That's a message there from Shaleen. And then let me just play this one last voice note on trade, and then we'll move on to other things.
00:29:46
Speaker 3: Hi, Clement and the team.
00:29:48
Speaker 10: Minister, I've heard some of you suggesting that we need to find alternative markets. China, India, Africa. The question is, do you think Africa has a market or a buying power? Because having a demand doesn't necessarily mean you have buying power. Secondly, I haven't heard you trying to prioritize local markets. as an alternative, especially in the citrus industry. Don't you think that if producers try to revise their own pricing, can benefit through local market?
00:30:37
Speaker 3: David in Marowich. Thank you, David. I think David makes a good point about local markets. These are very important, but our local market is saturated, which is why you have to look across borders and across oceans. It's also where the premium is. And if you look at one of the most catalytic things in terms of our agriculture sector over the last two decades, it's been the ability to be able to take excellent quality products to other markets. And that's where farmers get the premium. And that's why there is such a strong focus. Of course, the local market is important, but you reach a saturation point there and The reality is our fruits and our manufactured products realize better prices abroad and across borders. So I don't think it's an either-or. I think it is an and that you've got to provide into the local market. The local market is very important. But how do we expand that? And that's why I'm very passionate about how we use SADC far smarter in a way that allows us to ensure that the hole in SADC is bigger than the sum of the parts because when you're creating those opportunities– for people who are manufacturing in Namibia to feed into production and putting together in South African manufacturing, you create a much stronger system. And that's how the European Union has been able to develop into one of the strongest blocks. It's how the ASEAN region has been able to develop into one of the stronger blocks. And I think that regionalization and continentalization and internationalization are all going to be key strategies. But of course, I mean, you have to have a local market. But the reality is our market was never built for 68 million people, our manufacturing sector. It's built for a much larger thing because what that brings then with the regionalization and continentalization is scale. And when you get the scale right, then you can start to compete. And that's one of the reasons why it's impossible for us to compete with China on washing machines and these things because they've got the scale. We don't have the scale if we only look within the borders of our own country. If we want to achieve scale in textiles, in manufacturing, in defense manufacturing, you've got to open up these regions and the continent.
00:32:52
Speaker 2: I've got someone who's asking about your view on the deputy ministers. Has that also matured? Please can you ask him that, given that he has in the past said deputy ministers are a waste of money?
00:33:04
Speaker 3: I've never said deputy ministers are a waste of money. I think that's actually a trope. I think that you don't necessarily have to have a deputy minister in every department. And that has been our approach in the past. But certainly in trade industry and competition, there's a reason there's two ministers. It's a massive portfolio. And I've been absolutely astounded since my arrival at the parliament just how wide and varied this department is from trade to manufacturing to competition to legislation to regulation. I mean, I've got entities reporting to me that people that determine whether a centimeter is a centimeter. I never even knew these things existed beforehand. So there is a really large department, and I think that that's where deputy ministers can play a role is providing support. I have some very key delegations given to me by Minister Tao. Those are my responsibilities, and I'm out there doing them every single day.
00:34:00
Speaker 2: Often politicians don't want to make this about their feelings right when you get demoted or someone moves you from a particular position but i do wonder like how you deal with something like that i mean you were removed as agriculture minister i mean you seem to really enjoy what you do just hearing you speak about it like you've embraced it with both with both hands how was that process for.
00:34:22
Speaker 3: You it was tough i'm not gonna lie to you i was deeply hurt at both the A personal level. I felt a deep sense of betrayal. I felt that people that I'd been there for in their tough times in their careers and been there for when trouble was on the horizon sort of walked away and washed their hands. And I think I've been on the record about that. But look, I mean, I love serving my country. I love serving South Africa. I've done it since I was 22 years old. I'm not going to sit in the corner and cry like a baby for days on end. You take your licks and you move on. And I've moved on. I'm enjoying the work at DTIC. There's a lot of synergy with what I was doing before at agriculture, finding new markets. I've really found some really exciting niches. Defense manufacturing is something I really believe is something we can really harness in South Africa. Agro-processing, medical manufacturing. Do you know we make the world's best dental implants right here in Gauteng, the world's best. They're going to the best hospitals in the world, manufactured right here in South Africa. So there's so many great stories out there that we haven't even begun to touch. And if we get the policy right, if we get the levers right, we reduce the cost of doing business, we have efficient, effective transport in ports and harbors, I tell you, we are really going to revolutionize the way South Africa goes forward.
00:35:53
Speaker 2: So the betrayal you speak of, has it changed anything in how you relate within the Democratic Alliance? Because I must say, one of the things that surprised me is when you spoke of the betrayal, I think the words you've used is that your head was fed to a bay mob of hyenas. And normally when you would ask around in the Democratic Alliance, oh, do you think Jordan Hill Lewis will contest John? Or they'll tell you, no, those people are friends. They get along very well. That's something we had a lot whenever we would call a lot of people trying to figure out what's happening. So where do you think things went wrong there?
00:36:30
Speaker 3: Look, as I said to you, I mean, ever since I was in the White House and I spoke truth and I mean, people were expecting me to get up and contradict the president in front of the president of another country I spoke my truth. And how I've called the situation is I saw it. And I think I've had a big target on my back from the right wing as a result of that, the AfriMega crew, who've spent the last three to four years prior to that carefully crafting and cultivating their message. And I think the pressure that they put on the leadership of the DA was immense. But it hasn't gone away. I see they were now the other day calling for Ryan Coetzee to be fired. They were then calling for somebody else in the party to be fired, whoever they don't like. And the reality is that, I mean, I think that they created a pressure point in the party and decisions were made. But look, I mean, that's yesterday's milk. I've moved on. The party's moved on. And for all of our sake, we've got to move on. There's work to be done. And we can't tarry for a moment along the way. We've got to get people into work. We've got to create industries in the country. And that's what my focus is.
00:37:41
Speaker 2: Did you face similar pressures as the leader of an organization that is in the GNU with the ANC? Like pressures from organizations, you know, like you say, the Afrimaga. And how did you withstand and not.
00:37:55
Speaker 3: Handle some of the pressures? Yes, of course. And, you know, look, I mean, I think we have to accept, Clement, and what many people forget, there were 30% of the country voted no to end apartheid. There is a latent... set of people out there who don't believe in democracy, who don't believe in a multi-racial, multi-party government that didn't want apartheid to end. And they didn't go away. They didn't magically disappear in 1994. They're around. They're out there in communities. I think they've been emboldened a lot by the Trump administrations and we're starting to see them speaking up and speaking out. But, you know, the reality is that I've never been part of that of that mindset. Um, that's never been my crew and, and I will continue to stand up and speak what I believe. And yes, I mean, they, they might like it. They feel we, the GNU was a sellout to the ANC. And I asked them, well, what, what would you have done in our position? Would you have just simply handed the country over to what I called at the time, the doomsday coalition? I was honest at our party Congress in May about the moonshot and the doomsday. I executed that strategy. When the time came for the adults in the room to sit around a table and have a mature discussion about how South Africa is going to go forward, I put a lot on the line personally and professionally to get the GNU over the line. And I have no regrets. I think it was the right decision at the time. I still think it's the right decision. I think South Africa is a better place today because of the GNU. than it was the night before the 2024 election.
00:39:32
Speaker 2: Do you think some of those people who voted not to end apartheid have somehow found a home in the DA as well?
00:39:39
Speaker 3: Look, I think every party is a broad church. I have no doubt there are people who perhaps share some of those views in all parties across the spectrum. I think that, you know, that is the reality of politics. And, you know, no party, I think, in this country is absolutely homogenous. And you've got different strains. That's why, you know, you have Tea Party Republicans and you have Social Democrat Democrats. And I think those are starting to play out in their politics. You have One Nation Tories. You have Brexiteers. I think in every party you have those conflicts. And it's about You know, understanding how to unite and lead the whole. And I would like to think that during my time as leader of the DA, I brought the middle ground together to be able to steer us in the right direction. And forming the GNU, I think, was absolutely the right decision to make. Yeah.
00:40:31
Speaker 2: And I'm going to go to some calls and WhatsApps now.
00:40:33
Speaker 3: Peter, I'm coming to you in a moment. Quick one, though. Have you now buried the hatchet with Jordan and Lewis? Have you guys spoken? Jordan is the leader of my party, yes. Of course, we spoke.
00:40:40
Speaker 2: We have to work together.
00:40:41
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:40:43
Speaker 3: Obviously, you know, the bonds of friendship perhaps have been strained. But, you know, we've got a job to do together. And that's it. I mean, the DA is not a, you know, not a friendship circle or a country club. It's a political party. We've got work to do. And for me, I've always focused on the work. If you make friends along the way, that's a bonus. But the work is what is. And the people of South Africa are the things that matter. And the relationship with Tony Leon, where would you put it now? Oh, I have no relationship with Tony Leon.
00:41:11
Speaker 1: No.
00:41:13
Speaker 3: I think there were some bridges crossed there that went beyond the pale, and I have no relationship with it. Got it. Peter, you're in Sentin. Good morning. Yes, John.
00:41:27
Speaker 8: Now that, as they say, you are matured and you see things from a different perspective, I must say, really, I like this version of Charleston Hazen. The way now you talk about the GNU, the way you talk about how you view South African politics, what would you say, I mean, what's your view now in the way DA got rid of Mosi Maimani?
00:41:56
Speaker 3: Oh, you want to check if his views have changed on that, Peter? All right. Thank you. Thank you for your call in Senton. Yeah, well, look, I mean, let me just say, I mean, I was Moosey's chief whip in the DA. I spent a lot of political capital helping Moosey get elected and then supporting him while he was the leader. I didn't want him to go. My advice to him was not to leave the DA. But then there was a report. But the report was, you know, done by Tony Leon and a few other people. Yeah. And he chose the people who did the report. And as a leader, I suppose you've got to live by that. My advice to him was if you're going to stand down as leader, stay on in the DA. You can rebuild. I mean I'm a prime example of that. I mean everybody thought when I stood down as KZN leader, my political career was over. I came back to parliament, rebuilt, and went on to lead the party. And I think Moosey had talent. I think he still does have talent. I enjoyed my time working with him. We developed a friendship and a professional relationship. I think we were a good combination in parliament. But, you know, the real politic catches you and leaders who take parties backwards have to account.
00:43:06
Speaker 2: Do you think it was unfair in how he was?
00:43:08
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of unfairness in politics, but the reality is that's the nature of the game. Yeah.
00:43:12
Speaker 8: Yeah.
00:43:12
Speaker 2: You guys are tough for being in this situation. Should we call it industry?
00:43:17
Speaker 8: King.
00:43:17
Speaker 3: Well, they say it's the second oldest profession, and it has a lot in common with the first. Yeah. King, you are in Lone Hill. Good morning. Hello, King.
00:43:28
Speaker 9: Hi, hi, hi.
00:43:30
Speaker 3: Clement? Sure, go ahead.
00:43:31
Speaker 9: You know, I've been listening over to your conversation with John, and to be honest, I'm very impressed by the guy.
00:43:40
Speaker 2: Jeez, so many people are impressed this morning.
00:43:42
Speaker 3: Should have come on your show earlier.
00:43:43
Speaker 7: Yeah.
00:43:45
Speaker 3: Go ahead, King.
00:43:48
Speaker 9: Can you hear me?
00:43:48
Speaker 3: Yes, we can. Go ahead.
00:43:49
Speaker 9: I was just saying, I'm so impressed. The guy sounds so sincere and genuine. You know, he sounds mature as well. I'm not a DA member. I'm actually very far from it. But I like what the guy is saying. I like the way he talks. I like the fact that he seems to own up to his past that.
00:44:14
Speaker 3: The facts, basically.
00:44:15
Speaker 9: I like that. Please keep it up. I won't be voting the ANY, but I like what the guy is saying.
00:44:22
Speaker 3: All right. King in Lone Hill. Thank you so much for your call. Let's wrap up with a voice note.
00:44:28
Speaker 1: Hi, Clement. I would like to be Mr. Anonymous.
00:44:33
Speaker 6: Thank you very much for bringing the gentleman to come here and present us an excellent view.
00:44:41
Speaker 1: I just want to ask one question. Does he have any form.
00:44:47
Speaker 6: Of influence in the GNU so that we can at least be able to bring back that skills empowerment? To all the people in South Africa who are interested in the technical issues, like in the manufacturing, like you actually spoke about the issue of having, say, a motor car manufacturing with the after parts.
00:45:19
Speaker 1: Like we need those people.
00:45:21
Speaker 6: Does he have any influence on the GNU or it is just his voice is just in the wind and nobody's listening?
00:45:28
Speaker 1: Please.
00:45:29
Speaker 2: Well, he's in the trade and industry department.
00:45:32
Speaker 3: Well, I saved you 2% on VAT last year. I think that's pretty good influence. I would just say this, that, I mean, look, absolutely. And through cabinet committees and through departments, we've got lots of influence. And this is something I'm passionate about. We've lost a lot of skills in the country. We're only going to get those skills back if we build a skills pipeline in the country. And that means we've got to focus on what happens at the beginning of the pipe with education, vocational training, Not everyone has to wear a white collar and tie and sit in a corner office. And having been now in Germany and Austria and others, and countries just sent a study tour over there to look at their dual medium of education. They were both technical vocations and academic vocations are respected exactly the same way we need to do that. And then we need to work with industry to help pull through that pipeline. And I think that's where there's a greater role for government to play. I think we need to really look at the CETA system. I don't think it's producing the skills and the type of skills that industry is looking for. And I think that in a partnership with the industries that are wanting to grow, I think we can build a pipeline that will then create that opportunity to have boilermakers, fitters and turners, mechanics, plumbers, electricians, Coming through that thing, and goodness knows our municipalities need them. There's no shortage of jobs. I was told as well that there's 6,000 jobs waiting there in just one manufacturing sector alone, and that's qualified mechanics. There's 6,000 jobs, they told us at Auto Mechanica, that they can't fill because they don't have qualified people to do it. And there's 6,000 people who could find work tomorrow after just a three-year course. in mechanics.
00:47:12
Speaker 2: Let me wrap up with Toghazile on the water blindness assessment. Give this man his salary plus bonus. He is not acting, but he is a patriotic South African, a beacon of hope, not a politician, but a leader. Thank you so much for bringing him. Well, thank you, Toghazile, for the message. And thanks, John, for coming through to join us on the show and for fulfilling the promise you made.
00:47:32
Speaker 3: I look forward to the next time. Same here. I wish I'd been here 10 years ago. Whose fault is that? Thank you, Judd Stenhouse. And it's a minute after 11.
