Breaking Down Barriers & Unlocking Doors with Higher Education | Craig Smith

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Asking people to consider if the barriers they've originally put up in their head around a higher education don't exist.
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[rock music] Welcome to The Circuit magazine, the number one source of information on protection matters, the industry leading magazine for all security professionals who want to stay ahead of the game.
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Exploring how higher education can open the door. Today, uh, Elijah Shaw and myself are delighted to be hearing from Craig Smith from Minerva Elite.
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It's been a long time coming, but anyway, Elijah, lovely to have you on in particular for this pre-call. How are you doing? Happy New Year. Well, Happy New Year to you as well. It's great to be back.
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I, I feel like I've been MIA from the podcast, which is, uh, is a terrible thing, but I, I think the cool thing about it is that kicking off twenty twenty-four, I'm back in the saddle, and, uh, and this is a great episode, so, uh, happy to be here.
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Fantastic to have you back on, and I know you're no stranger to training. You're running, uh, training all, all the time.
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But today's session, it's not about training per se, it's not about a qualification like a medical qualification per se, it's about higher education.
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What, what do you think it is about these tertiary qualifications like masters or, or even a doctorate, a PhD? What is it that, that, that sort of is alluring to the protector? Sure.
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Well, I mean, I think, you know, in, in any marketplace, so ours included, uh, you wanna do something that creates separation, and, uh, and you're able to kind of carve out your niche or your area of s- of specialty.
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And I think if you start looking at, uh, for some people, that path is training, and as a byproduct of that, uh, higher education.
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And so you start branching out, and for those that have an academic mindset or has that, or have those aspirations and time, you know, they can really, um, build their credentials and build their bona fides.
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Uh, and then I think there's different avenues that you could take that.
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Uh, you know, there's, you know, scholarly pursuits in, in, in research areas, but let's, let's be frank about it, you know, some people just like that, you know?
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Some employers just want to see that, and if, uh, if there's five, you know, CVs on my desk, and one says he's got a master's, you know, that, that might ma- make me look a little harder at that particular individual.
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Yeah, it, it opens the door. It doesn't get you through the door. It opens the door. So- It's a... If nothing else, it's a conversation starter, or it shows a peek into your, you know, maybe your drive or your insight.
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So, um, it, it, uh, I... It can only help if you're an individual who is willing to, uh, put that investment in- into, uh, uh, uh, of time into that, but, uh, but that's my opinion.
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I, I'd really like to hear, uh, today's guest and, and his thoughts on the matter. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, uh, Minerva Elite been a longtime supporter of the magazine and the associations. Yes.
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Um, let's, let's get into it, uh, with Craig Smith, and let's explore this. Let's see how higher education could possibly, not saying it will, but could possibly open the door.
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[rock music] And now let's meet one of the contributors to The Circuit magazine.
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Exploring how higher education can open the door. Today we're very, very pleased to welcome Craig Smith, head of training and development for Minerva Elite Performance. How are you doing, Craig?
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I'm very well, thank you, Pelum. How are you? You keeping well? Yes. Enjoying the weather, getting ready for events, and really loving the new year.
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But higher education, something in a lot of people's mind for a variety of different reasons. Yeah. Why are we talking about it? What's the problem we're trying to solve? It's a great question.
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First of all, you need to recognize is there a problem 'cause there might not be a problem, um, and this is something you have to think about your why.
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As i- why is this a topic that's relevant to you, 'cause it might not be for everybody. From my own experience, and, and as I start this podcast, I have a little bit of a story if that's okay, Pelum. So,
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uh, my father when he left the military in, uh, two thousand and one, uh, here in Hereford, did his, um, his master's degree in security management before he stepped into the private security world from the special forces.
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Um, when he went up to Loughborough University, he had a conversation with his tutor, and my, my father left school with no GCSEs, no college A levels, no nothing, um, and he had a conversation with his tutor and said, "I'm a little bit nervous about stepping into this academia world," and his tutor said something incredibly poignant that stayed with me for the rest of my life,
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and the tutor said to my father, "You can adapt into these people's world. Could they adapt into yours? Academia is just a process. Don't fear it. You can do this.
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With the, with the experiences you- you've got, academia shouldn't be something that should scare you."
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And that, that, that theme's kind of stuck with me, to be honest with you, Pelum, as I've moved on in my career as, you know, education management, in that the unknowing and the confidence that people have around higher education often becomes a barrier.
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You know that concept of building something up as a barrier in your head, but in reality it's not there?
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Um, and that really is the why we're talking about this because so many security professionals and professionals in general, you know, this is a wide topic, it's not just related to CPOs and security professionals, it's, it's a wider context than that, put these barriers in place for themselves around their own academic ability, but they've not really explored it, um, and that's something that I hope to get out of this podcast is to kind of-The wrong word for it, but possibly debunk some of the concerns and myths around higher education, the value that it can add to someone's career, and off- and off- offer some advice and guidance that I would give if I was having a conversation with a security professional that was looking to explore this, uh, as an opportunity for them.
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Well, certainly worthwhile given how much money and time people put into this, and, you know, before, before they go in a, a very specific direction, absolutely great to explore. Yeah. But what about you?
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Where, where does your passion for this, uh, come from? Obviously, we're delighted to have you on, but what, what about your background? Yes, my background's quite varied, to be honest with you, Pelham.
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So I, um, [laughs] ironically, I went to college and studied the public services course to be a police officer, soldier, et cetera.
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Um, I left college and then went into law enforcement for six years in West Mercia Police, ended my career as a youth engagement officer, and then went and did my close protection qualification, was gonna go into the world of security.
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I'm very open about this.
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I didn't get much operational experience because within about four months of being in that role, I got asked to go and run the course at the college that I attended, um, and I ran that for 10 years.
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So I saw thousands of young people that were moving from that course into security, into the police, into the army, and the emergency services.
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Once I completed that 10 years, I then went into adult education, where I specialize in, uh, teacher training, um, CMI, leadership management, human resources, and, and developing adult learners.
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And I'll tell you what, Pelham, a very poignant thing happened during that process. I realized that adult learners come with more insecurities and worries than teenagers. Really?
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And that topic fascinated me because I myself am dyslexic. I struggle academically. I wouldn't consider myself an academic, um, in any shape, way or form.
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What I realized pretty quickly with adult learners is they have to establish their why they're doing it, and then there's two things, and this is the advice I would give to anybody that's thinking about higher education that matter, and it's, it's called AA, no copyright to the AA, by the way, completely different thing.
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Academia and application. Out of those two topics, I can tell you that academia is not as important as application.
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If you can apply yourself to study a higher education qualification, you will get through it by hook or by crook. There is a way through that.
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You know, I've worked with lots of professionals that have a high level of academic ability, but they're a little bit lazy, Pelham, to be honest with you, and they lack that application.
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Now, they're never gonna go anywhere with it.
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What I found was, uh, especially working with a lot of, uh, veterans and military personnel, et cetera, that have been on some of our higher education qualifications at Maneuver Elite Performance, the key thing I try and get through to them is, if you can give yourself this title of this is a mission, this is a task, this is something I need to apply myself to, I need to break it down and not be overwhelmed by it, it's achievable.
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If you put that barrier in your head that I'm not an academic and this is higher education, I can't do this, you're never gonna win the race because you didn't sign up.
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So it's about taking the time to actually look at it through a different lens and be humble enough to go, "Right, I know I'm a little bit out of my depth with this academia style, but do you know what? I can do this.
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Let's just take five minutes. Let's think about it, and let's break this up into manageable chunks."
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And, you know, I'm very proud to say that here at Maneuver Elite Performance, we've got about four hundred people through our master's degree MBA pathway now, and, you know, they're four hundred people who possibly otherwise wouldn't have had the confidence to do it if they didn't choose the right center and the right people to support them.
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Yeah, that's a, that's a fantastic number. But imagine if I'm an operator and I haven't even begun to think about this process. I'm uninitiated. Mm-hmm.
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I'm just about getting to grips with FREC level whatever- Yeah, yeah [laughs]... which, which is hard enough, right? Um, what, what should I- Mm... better, better understand?
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Um, uh, you know, should, should, should I look at my age? Should I look at my seniority? What, w- what beginning should I, should I sort of formulate?
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Well, I think the beginning comes from your intent and what, your why. W- why are you trying to do this? I, I, I don't think we can put academics or attainment to an age or an experience.
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I think it comes down to, you know, the point you are in your life and in within your career and what you wanna get out of it. Um, you know, let's look at FREC. Let's look at, you know, CP top-up.
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Let's look at surveillance qualifications. All those things are absolutely fantastic and create, uh, you know, a more employable security professional.
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You create a diverse CV, and in no way, shape, or form would I ever advise people not to do those things because they have operational value and may be the difference between somebody winning, winning a contract and going on a team, um, perhaps to not getting in that position.
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What I would say though, and this is possibly a controversial statement, but if I've got a thousand people and they've all got the same CVs in terms of their qualifications, what we would call the baseline requirement to be a security professional,
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then I'm looking at backgrounds, CVs, what's your experience?
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Now, that plays a massive part in this, so I don't wanna kind of give any false illusions that if you get a master's degree, you're gonna be far more employable than every other person you ever come across, [laughs] because that is definitely not the case.
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However, if I've got those thousand people and the CVs all pretty much look the same in terms of baseline requirement, but someone has a master's degree or a PhD and has invested that time to look at a topic that makes them more employable in a strategic management position, that individual might just go to the top of that pile.
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Now, it's not guaranteed, is it, by any means?
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Uh, but what it may give us is a little bit of a shortlisting process as an employer to look at and go, "Right, this person's taken the time to think about the role of a security professional from a strategic position, from a management position, looking at the different topics that actually help a contract's life s- life cycle to fruition."
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So it might just give those people that little bit of an edge, Pelham, in all honesty.
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I get, I get that because, you know, it would, it would shine out, uh, on, on, on the top of a CV much, much as, you know, who did your course, um, can- Mm... can also, can also be good.
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But thinking, uh, you know, devil's advocate, you know, we've had, and I, I know this, this i- this is a podcast for people that could just jump in right now. I do appreciate that. Yeah. But on the podcast, we had Dr.
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Treston Wheat, who is formulating the IPSB Journal for Protectors. Yeah. Um, we've had Dr. Samantha Newbery, my, uh, actual friend, uh, talking about intelligence studies.
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One of the-Things that they've kind of said was an issue or a challenge was doing academic, uh, research and then applying that in, in, in reality, I suppose. Yeah.
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And, and one of the things they came across was a lot of academia is looking at history.
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So if I do the history of intelligence studies and I say, "Oh, in Northern Ireland in this date, this thing happened and this something happened," cool, very important. But application. Mm.
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So I, I wonder how can we, how can we describe that bridge, the AA, as you put it? Yeah, no, that's a fantastic question.
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Real world application of academic study is something that is often up for debate, and controversial is the wrong question, but a healthy conversation in terms of how can we actually utilize the learning in a real world application, what value can it truly add?
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I'm gonna answer that question as a true politician, if you will. Depends on the qualification you're doing and the center you're studying with.
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Um, so when we're looking at higher education, you know, that's such a wide range of a, of a, of a statement to make. There's so many different qualifications out there that can all add value in their own different way.
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You know, if we're looking at something like, you use the terminology something that's more historical, well, those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it, so there's that statement.
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So understanding where we've been might indicate where we're going, so there may be some real world in- application there. If I look at something that is very security related,
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so if we look at something like a strategic management and leadiet- leadership qualification, like an MBA or something like that with Cardiff Met or one of our other partner in universities here at MEP,
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the assignments are written about real world application, about operational conduct, strategic vision.
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It's about utilizing the everyday operational value that we can bring to that particular role and applying that to your study. So it works both ways. I like to think of it as a continuat- uh, continuatum.
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So it's like we're looking at, we're looking at the education impacting operational value, but alternatively, it's the operational value feeding back to the education.
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A lot of our learners will utilize some of the, you know, sanitize obviously for confidentiality, et cetera, but we utilize some of the examples and some of the experience that they've had within their written assignments to help them understand the, the academic side of that process.
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Um, and that's something we actually encourage because from my experience, it's about finding the tangible links that make it worthwhile.
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If you're teaching someone a particular subject, but it has no real world application, it's very hard for them to see the relevance as to why they're doing it and what value it truly adds.
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But an outstanding education provider will be able to create those links and that synergy between the two that when people are writing their assignments, they're actually seeing how that could be applied in real world application, and vice versa when they're in the real world experiencing things and they go, "Do you know what?
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That is change management. What we're going through here, that is change management." Now, if they weren't doing that academic study, they, they may not understand what it is they're experiencing.
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Have you ever experienced the, um, or has anyone ever explained the conscious competence, conscious incompetence kind of model? No, not really. So there, there's different levels of this.
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So some people are unconscious incompetence, which means they don't know that they don't know. Then you've got this middle ground where people come conscious incompetent, which means they know how little they know.
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And then we move up the scale where we have conscious competence, which is the highest level of achievement, if you will. It's where you know what you know.
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And what higher e- education should be able to do is create conscious competent people, so when they're experiencing real life application, they can actually link it to a theory and go, "Right, this is that particular topic happening in real world application."
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So it just gives them that wider spectrum of understanding of value.
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I like that, and I hadn't really thought of it in, in those terms, um, 'cause, 'cause sometimes you, you know, you just go through the process and you don't realize why or what you, what you took out of it. Mm.
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Well, it's difficult because sometimes when you, when you work...
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And we've all been with colleagues, and e- everyone who's listening to this podcast now is probably gonna smirk when they're in the gym or drinking their coffee.
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Co- you know, some unconscious incompetence, people that haven't got a clue, and they don't even know they haven't got a clue. They think they're actually winning the race when they're, they're being lapped.
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And then you move to that sort of higher end where, you know, the best scenario is people are conscious of their incompetence, which means that at least they've got enough knowledge to acknowledge that they don't know what they're talking about.
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And then the ideal scenario is people are all over it. They, they know, they know what they know, and that sometimes is, uh, attributed through higher education.
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Not always, and it's important for me to explain that although I'm an education specialist, I also recognize that education moves beyond academic qualifications. Education is life. Education is experience.
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You know, I've learnt as much from experiential learning and just being in the real world than I've ever done through textbooks and, and PowerPoint presentations and lessons.
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Um, but what joined those two things up has given me that level of conscious competence where when I'm having conversations with future learners, I can apply that real world application but also then link it back to the theory, and I think that's something that's quite empowering for someone.
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Yeah. Yeah, 'cause then you can frame it in a, in a better way. A lot of people say, "Oh, you need to do communication study, uh, communication skills," right? Yeah.
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Um, and people joke that's because HR don't know what to say, so they just pluck it out of the bag and say, "Mm, communication." [laughs] But actually, this is a, a real world application.
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And, and, and for the known knowns, unknown unknowns and competencies you just described reminds me of some email signatures I used to see. It's very popular. I don't know. Um, please don't do this at home.
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Please don't do it. [laughs] Yeah. Um, uh, attitude, not aptitude, determines your altitude, which for me says I might be not very, you know, capable, but I've got a great attitude.
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Now, okay, there's something to be said for having a great attitude, but I- Yeah... I, I do appreciate where, where you're coming from on that.Yeah, I mean,
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I think we always have to look at what we tend to try and do with anything of this nature is we try and, um, put it in a small box and oversimplify it, but it's a big spectrum. You know, there are certain industries...
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I'll give you an example. When I was in education teaching 16 to 19-year-olds, I would 100% stand by that statement, attitude over aptitude.
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Because give me a classroom of 30 willing minds, even if they're not that academic, that's a much easier situation to try and manage.
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Now, if I've got a room full of really academic lazy sods, that's a much harder situation to deal with. So although that statement is necessarily a bit, a bit too blanketed, given the circumstance, it's relevant. Yeah.
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No, I like that because then, then, then we see the spectrum. But talking about the spectrum, when we say higher education, maybe...
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Actually, it struck me that I've just immediately jumped into, oh, yes, tertiary education, like masters and PhDs and so on. But- Yeah... what are we talking about? What's the spectrum we're talking about? Yeah.
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So the spectrum of higher education really lends itself from anything from level four up to PhD, essentially. So that, that is really what we would class as higher education.
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So anything up to level three is classed as like further education, um, what we'd call vocational learning.
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Um, the minute it steps into level four or five, it goes into, like, higher national diploma, higher national certificates, foundation degree, um, bachelor's degree, and so on.
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Um, so anything from four to sort of, like, level seven master's degree up to PhD is what we would call higher education ultimately. Okay. No, that makes, that, that makes a lot of sense. And the,
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but the thing is, and we've, we've, we've, we've seen it within our community, you know, uh, in the States, in the UK, and around the world, there, there are some operators who, uh...
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Well, we do applaud anyone getting an- another qualification, another string to your bow, but we've seen CVs- Mm-hmm... that are, like, six pages of mass online MOOC courses and- Yeah... other, other things.
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And, you know, you, you, you add it up in your head and you're like, you, you spent, like, a lot of money, a lot of money.
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I- is there a danger that some people are far too hungry for the gold star, the certificate, um, a- and, and, in, im- in place of real world application? I- is that a danger? Yeah, without question.
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I mean, I- I've been in management positions where I've taken on staff in large educational teams and, you know, I like a diverse CV.
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By all means, I like to see someone committing to their continuing professional development and investing their time and money into their CPD.
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There is a danger of being a little bit of a, a course hopper, just getting on every single course going because it's niche.
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And I think, you know, I say this, uh, I hope I don't offend anyone in the security industry, although I work for a company that has a s- a brother, sister company that is a security company.
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Um, you know, there is a bit of a danger in the security industry is whatever's niche, whatever's cool, whatever's sexy, there's this new qualification out, let's jump on it.
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I would always go back to that question, and it's such a simple question, is what's the why? You know, w- why do this? What value is it going to actually add? Let's think further ahead down the field.
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Now, you know, first of all, you say about a CV that's six pages long. My advice as an employer is never make it more than two sides, please, ladies and gentlemen. Make it nice and easy to read.
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Um, no one's gonna read a six-page CV, so there's that.
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Um, but going to your point, you know, if you've got four of those pages is about education qualifications and online courses and things you've jumped onto, ask yourself the question, w- what value does it really add?
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You know, what, what's the purpose? What's the why?
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Um, you know, if it's to illustrate that you invest in yourself, then that's great, that's fantastic, but if it's not gonna help you win that contract or make you more employable, then why? Yeah.
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Getting, getting to know your why. And with, with, with another hat that I also have, we sort of advocate for more immersive learning and training and, and, uh, gamified learning and play and all that. Yeah.
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One, one of, one of the questions that comes up in that environment is the cart before horse. Mm-hmm. In, in, in that we, we use the example... I mean, it happened to me.
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Suddenly one day they said, "Congratulations everybody, we're all gonna do Excel macro training." Mm. Microsoft Excel. And we all said, "What, all of us?"
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And they said, "Yes, the entire department's gonna do macro training." Yeah. Like, why? In the event that in the future at some stage macros become the thing you need to do.
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None of us retained it, none of us remembered it, and by the time we actually did face a macro, it was, you know, cart- Yeah... before the horse. Isn't there a danger, uh, that we n-
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might neglect the, the skill of, oh dear, I don't know how to do something, I need to find out how, versus I've got a PhD in XYZ? Hmm. Yeah.
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That's a real [laughs] that's a very topical question and something that I've thought about a lot.
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You know, I've got colleagues, friends, people that I've worked with in the past that have very high academic, uh, qualifications
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that I would say are less employable in some instances than someone who's actually just lived through the problem and figured out the answers on an operational level.
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You know, and this is something that when we look at higher education, we think that it's not the be all and end all that's gonna make you have all the answers to all the questions.
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And to answer you, the cart before the horse scenario, you know, there is an element of we have to take our time to think about what is the best higher education opportunity for us based on where we are in our career and what's gonna add value and what's gonna take us to that next level.
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Um, you know, going back to the, the colleagues and friends that I've had in the past, you know, some of the most outstanding teachers that have ever worked for me have come to me unqualified teachers, but had a whole wealth of experience in their sector and we've got them to the point where they become dual professionals as educators.
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The same thing really applies to close protection operatives and, and, and security operatives, I guess, in the fact of-You know, you have to have the experience and the skillsets, but what that higher education may do, if it's applied at the right time in your career, is give you that insight into the next level, to that strategic level of thinking.
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Um, so I, I do think there is a danger of over-qualifying yourself and not living through the problem, essentially. But, you know, why not do both?
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Why not live through the problem, but also invest in yourself at, at the same time?
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But taking the time to really think about what's gonna add value is as important as, you know, the timing is as important as what it's going to be.
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Because, you know, I, I've got other scenarios where I've had people go and upskill themselves and qualify themselves in a, in a scenario or in a topic that they've not immersed themselves in yet.
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So it's quite hard to try and establish what value that qualification is going to add.
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And in that, I would agree with you that sometimes you need to kind of live through the problem slightly, and then figure out what's the best direction of travel for you after that.
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Yeah, that, that's a more succinct way of putting it than I, I was formulating.
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I was, I was kind of thinking of it on the fly, but yes, living through the problem, I suppose that is the, the, the, you know, encapsulated, uh, way.
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Well, u- u- using that living through the problem, I mean, I, I, I come into contact with, although I don't personally employ or manage, lots of close protection operatives and security professionals.
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Um, you know, I see them through the business, the other side of the business that we run.
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You know, and when I've had conversations with some of these operatives when they've come through the office or when we're on task, et cetera, and I'm having conversations with them, a lot of them have got very, you know, a, a wealth of experience.
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They've got very interesting CVs, lots of what I'd call Gucci jobs that they've done. Um, but they often say the same thing, "I wanna move into that more management role.
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I wanna move into that more strategic thinking role. I wanna start my own business." At that point, that's where you've gotta ask yourself, "Well, how do I get to that next level? What could I do to invest into myself?"
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And this is specifically where higher education comes in, 'cause that's where you're having that conversation of right, well, now you need to start thinking more strategically and understand that conscious incompetence that you become consciously competent.
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Start studying these topics so you can think a bit more strategically, and then start adding yourself to be a bit more value to o- organizations or start your own company.
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And that, and that's a hard conversation to have with someone who's possibly Special Forces background, um, lots of experience, done lots of really interesting jobs.
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But the reality of it is you are still in a pool of people who are very similar to yourselves. Um, and at that point, that's where you've gotta kind of explore, well, what could make me different? Hmm.
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So what, what could make them different? Maybe that's a good segue, you know. [laughs] Should they all go do an MBA, an accounting degree, a law degree? Well- What, what, what's gonna s- make them stand out?
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Yeah, and here's the irony to that statement, Callum. I'm very aware, well, if everyone does it, then you're not different, are you? [laughs] So once again, there's that.
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So, you know, I'm not naive to that, but the reality of it is not everyone will do it, you know. Because it takes application, commitment and, you know, the confidence to give it a go.
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Um, but in that it shows me, you know, as an employer, that you've taken a risk, you've invested in yourself.
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Um, and the direction of travel then really goes back to that, and this is a bit of a cop-out, I've said it about five times, say again, is the why. You know, why that qualification? What value does it add?
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So one of the qualifications that we run here, we run a few higher education qualifications, but I don't, I don't want this to be a sales pitch podcast.
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I wanna, I wanna keep this, um, uh, service user-centric about what value it can add rather than, you know, maneuverally performance selling courses, if you will.
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But one of the qualifications we built was that strategic leadership and management qualification with an MBA top-up at one of our partnering universities, because we, we recognize that,
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you know, you have to look at what, what topic or what subject can add value to a wide field. Now, if you think about something like law,
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law is an interesting topic, doing a master's degree in law, but it won't apply to every single sector.
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There'll be sectors that the fact that you've got an MBA or, or, or a master's in law, that's lovely, but it doesn't really apply to this field, but it's still great.
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And it might be the difference of you still getting the, the role or getting an interview. But management and leadership is a skills gap everywhere.
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There isn't an industry that won't say, "Yes, we need more stronger and strategic thinking leaders." Every industry is looking for that as a, an ideal employee, if you will.
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So we've chosen that as a, as a subject specialism because we know it can add real value to people that engage with that product, regardless of where you are, whether you're still in the military or the emergency services and you wanna go for a promotion, or you're transitioning out.
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So I'll give you an example. There are certain large multinational corporate organizations that if you wanna move into a management role, you must have an academic qualification at a certain level.
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Now, it doesn't matter what experience you've got, you won't even get an interview if you don't have that.
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So the reason we've chosen strategic management leadership is 'cause we think that gives our learners the best opportunity to get through the door. Now, I wanna make this very clear.
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I am not suggesting that if you have a master's degree, you've got the job. That is, that would be a very bold and inappropriate thing to say to your listeners.
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What I am saying is, if a HR department have said, for this particular role, anyone who's shortlisted must have a master's degree, well, if you don't have one, you're not even getting through the door.
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So it's just, how I like to oversimplify it is the master's degree may be the key that you need to get through the door. Once you're through the door, you've gotta sell yourself, but at least you have the opportunity.
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Yeah, that, that, that absolutely makes sense, and the key analogy I think works in so many, so many- Yeah... uh, things. I myself remember getting through the door and getting no further because of my- [laughs]...
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my own, uh, approach to interviews. Um- We've all been there, Callum. We've all been there. Yeah. But, but I guess then, what do we, how do we know if a skill set or a field of study is best suited to academia?
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So some people, uh, previously made the comparison, let's say insurance. Mm-hmm. Insurance is 100% CII, ACIA, FCII. It's all, mm, practical, uh, industry-based qualifications.
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If I did a degree in insurance, doesn't matter, nobody cares. Yeah. Least of all insurance.How do I know that a skill belongs in the world of academia?
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I mean, w-would there be a degree in verbal judo that the police are so famed for? If, w- Yeah. W-w-how do I know? Well, that's a very interesting point. You can do a degree in David Beckham now, can't you?
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So there, there are all sorts of degrees out there, and, you know, it's a bit like supply and demand. Education, this is something that people don't often understand, is a business.
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If there is a need, supply and demand, someone will create a qualification in it.
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Um, so, you know, the credibility and the ethos of the education supplier and the center and the advice they give will give you a strong indication whether or not the advice you're getting is, is valid.
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Um, you know, when, going back to your original point, you know, how do we know what sectors require higher education and which ones don't, essentially? Well, you know, research will tell you that.
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You know, if you, if you're speaking to colleagues and friends and, you know, people that you're aware of that work in those industries, they will give you some indication.
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There's a lot of information in the public domain around what sectors require higher education. What I will always say
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is the subject you study is important, and I, and I, and I, and I do mean this, and I do think it can add value.
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That, that's why we've chosen leadership and management, because we think that's quite a generic topic, therefore every sector's gonna like it. So let's use your analogy of insurance. Yes, it's very practical.
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Yes, the, a degree in insurance might not make a m-measurable difference. But an MBA in strategic management and leadership, if you work in insurance, might make you more- Mm...
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suitable for that promotion with inside it. Um, so this really comes down to doing your research and when you speak to centers and specialists like myself, the advice you get given will tell you whether they're not...
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I mean, the amount of learners, Pedham, that I've turned away because they've told me they want something. Now, I could upsell them to something that I think would suit us as a business, but that's not what we're about.
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You know, I think there's a duty and responsibility, and I always say this to, you know, I used to teach teachers for a living for a short period of time, and keep your moral compass pointed at the direction the students need to travel, 'cause that should really indicate what advice you give them.
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Um, so, you know, if I've got someone coming to me saying they wanna go in insurance, the first thing I'd be saying is, "Right, you need to speak to people who work in insurance, find out what qualifications they did that made measurable difference."
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However, having an MBA in history isn't gonna hurt, it's just whether or not it adds true value.
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Um, and this goes back to something we were talking about offline earlier, about, you know, does the masters or higher education have to be linked to the sector to be impactful?
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Well, it depends on what metric you're measuring that on. If it's about career progression and opening doors, then yeah, possibly.
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However, you know, if I've got someone who's got an MBA in history but they wanna be a security operative, it still tells me something about them, doesn't it? Still tells me they can study at that level.
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It still tells me they've invested in themselves. Yes, I can see that that doesn't necessarily link to that particular industry, but it still tells me something about that individual.
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So it just depends on what, going back to it again, what's the why? Yeah, and, and your why doesn't have to be career-based. I mean- No, not in the slightest...
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you might do art history 'cause actually you're really interested. Yeah. And I've got qualifications, Pedham, that, you know, I've done because they just interest me. It hasn't really opened any doors for me.
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But does academia, does study always have to be about bank balance or, you know, career opportunity and progression?
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Sometimes it can be about just adding a bit of value to our own self and, and, and, and I applaud people that do that.
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I mean, you know, I've got lots of friends of mine that have gone and studied something just because they find it really interesting and fascinating and, in that, brilliant.
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But for this target audience that are listening, you know, th- if we're looking at this in terms of the security professional and, and we're looking at progressing career opportunities, and this is where establishing that why, finding the right center and the right advice can make, you know, immeasurable difference in terms of the outcomes.
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Yeah. And, you know, to have a qualification, a piece of paper, it doesn't say that you know everything, but at least it gives people the confidence that you have a baseline.
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And so, you know, uh, uh, you know, it shou- it should be that plus experience.
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And, and to talk about, you know, study for, for your own personal gain, uh, before the Pisa Process, but the Pisa Process was a standardization of, um, degrees across Europe before then, right?
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You'd still, and still you probably have it, our European colleagues who are listening, you would have, uh, especially German students in their 32nd semester, they'd literally just keep going and be like, "Yeah, th- this semester I'm gonna do this.
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This semester, maybe that." Yeah. And only when they were ready, they would cash in their chips and say, "Yeah, now I get my degree." Mm-hmm.
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The Pisa Process streamlined that all, but it actually gave us all more signposts for, um, doing a diploma, doing a master's, doing a, a bachelor's, uh, which, which I think can only be a good thing. Yeah.
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And I, I, I think that breadth of opportunity that education can sometimes highlight to you is something that we don't always kind of, like, see a lot of value in that, you know, sometimes education can change the trajectory of where you were going, what you thought it was originally going to lead to, and it takes you on a different path altogether.
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Um, you know, the exposure of higher education through consultation I've had with some of our learners, that they've started it for purpose A and it's opened purpose D.
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And, you know, and that in itself is still something that they otherwise wouldn't have discovered had they had not taken the chance on themselves to explore it. So, you know, it, it, it really can open a real diverse
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kind of like range of opportunity if you have the confidence to explore it. Yeah. Um, one, one of the things that suddenly occurred to me that's of interest to me, um- Yeah... I mentioned verbal judo and the police.
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I, I don't, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not picking on you 'cause you said you had law enforcement background, but how, how do they train verbal judo?
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Is it like day, day five, right now we're learning about ver- ver- verbal judo? Or, or is, is it not as wide, uh, widely used as people think?I think it's cultural.
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I think when, when you look at, like, the training that goes into anything, I think, you know, s- you know, I, I, I must stress this to the listeners, um, you know, it's been a long time since I was in the police, right?
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Um, and I-- and the last two years I wasn't really on the front line. I was doing education-y type stuff.
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Um, so I'm not really a subject expert in that by any means, so any law enforcement that listen to this, I don't claim to be an expert in this field.
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Um, but, you know, verbal judo and the terminology and sort of like all those sorts of different things that we get ourselves involved with, I think it's largely around culture and how you sort of like establish that through learned behavior.
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Um, so, you know, there's lots of different things. I remember when I finished my police training,
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um, day one, week one in a stab vest, turn up at the police station and my mentor police officer said, "Right now your training starts." And, you know, that concept of...
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And th-this goes back to what you were saying earlier about you can be in the classroom as long as you want, but the real learning takes place on the streets when you're out there.
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And this is something tailing back to the purpose of this, this podcast really, that
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you will never find a more pragmatic education practitioner than myself that will almost go against my own industry at times and kind of allude to the fact of, yeah, I believe that there's more learning to be done boots on the street and just kind of like living through the problems and learning that way.
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Um, what I will always say though is higher education is in the terminology. It's in, it's in the name.
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It gives you a higher awareness of maybe the, the, the unconscious things that are happening around the problem that you otherwise weren't even aware existed because you've never really looked at it through that lens.
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Um, so yeah, [laughs] verbal judo, I don't, I don't pose to be an expert on that in any, in any... I'm, I'm gonna reserve my right to comment too much on that, Adam. That's, that's verbal judo.
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That's verbal judo in essence. [laughs] No, but if, if, if you- Yes, yeah... if you are in the police and you are listening and you do have an answer, maybe there's some, I don't know, may-maybe it's not a real course.
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Maybe, maybe it's fictitious. I don't know. [laughs] Uh, ans-answers on a postcard. Yeah. Um, so I guess if, if I am looking to, you know, go into higher education, um, is there, is there any secondary literature that...
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It seems to me that with the exception of like science and, and maybe some, some history, um, no, no, no, even, even with history, wha-what secondary literature is out there?
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I-i-is, is it all like Tony Robbins and, uh, self-help books when it comes to business leadership? [laughs] Or, you know, are there, are there papers?
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You know, what, what, what could I read to get a flavor, especially leadership, uh, that, that, that we've been talking about? Yeah. I mean, there's lots of subject specialists in that field.
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I mean, you, you know, you wouldn't have to go far down the rabbit hole to kind of find lots of things out there. For example, Tony Robinson, you know, strategic leaders in their field.
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Um, you know, there's lots of leaders within their industry that have become almost subject specialists in very niche areas of leadership. Um, you know, there's lots of TED Talks that are out there.
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In terms of secondary literature, there's plenty of literature and books that exist around the concept of leadership and strategic leadership, and the direction that organizations and the individual can travel.
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Um, what I would say though,
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and this is a bit of a controversial comment really as an educator, is you can get lost in literature quite quickly and the, the, the narrative is often guided by the agenda of the author- Mm...
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and their idea of, you know, and we're assuming they understand it correctly [laughs] and that it, it applies to your industry.
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You know, 'cause you may go down the rabbit hole of leadership and management literature and not see the application to the security operative. You can't really see the, the tangible links.
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So what I would say is wider reading of literature is advisable, but have a conversation with someone who works in an organization that manages leadership and management higher education qualifications.
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And if that's not us, there's plenty of other, you know, organizations out there that can kind of bring some of this learning to life and apply it to you. What I will say is an outstanding education and training provider
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will guide you to see the tangible links to your own industry in these topics.
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Um, so there is secondary literature out there that you can explore, but the best source of information are the subject specialists that work in that field.
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And let, you know, let's say we looked at a, a, a course th-that you run or other people run. Would, would you provide people with a reading list or would all the material come from the course?
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I'm just thinking, you know, people get a flavor of a course, um, maybe, maybe prepare for a course. Is, is that important? Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get you signed up by the end of this, Adam, I think.
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I think you're gonna do your master's. Yeah, see, you can hear them. I'm interested now. Yeah. This has turned into an interview for the listeners.
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Um, yeah, I mean, we provide reading lists, we provide lots of resources. Once again, though, you know, I, I've got a team of five associate lecturers who get our learners through this program.
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Um, they come from a real varied background, from military to security, and some of those are actually my bosses in education, so they've come back to work for me in this, in this context.
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Um, you know, they themselves are subject specialists and they know how to tailor education to the individual. And this is something that's a topic which a wider understanding on a baseline level is incredibly important,
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but you've got to figure out how it translates to you and your own experiences.
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And this links back to something you said earlier around, you know, working through the problem, seeing the relevance and real world application.
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You know, an outstanding education provider like ourselves will have staff on hand that help guide the learner to see those, those links to their own real world application and the experience they've had before.
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And, you know, when we've worked with especially the military and the armed forces, when they're transitioning out and they do our master's degree, they'll say to us, "I've never been involved in a situation that's required change management.
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What do you mean?" And you're like, "How many tours of Afghanistan have you done? How many tours of Iraq did you do? What jobs have you done?" And you're like,
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y- that, that's, there's change management thraw-throughout that, you just don't know.
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It goes back to that unconscious incompetence thing, and this is where an outstanding education provider will help guide learners to understand those tangible links.
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Um-So yeah, I think, I think that, you know, that, that there's, there are reading lists and things that can be provided, and yes, there are direction that we can give individuals to explore further learning.
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But a lot of leadership and management, especially on the operational level, you'd be amazed how much you already know. You just don't know you know it. Mm. Which would make it more accessible- Mm...
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and perhaps less, less intimidating. Correct. So where, where do we go from here? You know, can, can, can we, can we tell them what we told them? So, you know, tell them what we're gonna tell them, t-tell them- Yeah...
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tell them what we told them. What, what have we told everybody? Um, uh, you know, what, what, what could a synopsis of this be and some next steps?
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Yeah, I mean, I wrote down earlier what problems it's trying to solve, this conversation, because ultimately, you know, otherwise it's been a, hopefully an interesting podcast to listen to, but what value does it really add?
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And I've written down a few things here, Pelum. One is that what I hope this will achieve is empower people to not, to not turn their minds away from the concept of higher education or the exploration of it.
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And hopefully what it's done is it's allowed them to understand that, you know, figure out what your why is, figure out what's the topic you wanna look at, what value can it add. And if you've figured that out, be brave.
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You know, academia is not as important as application.
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If you can apply yourself to it, if you figure out what value it's gonna add, explore it, be brave enough to explore it, because, you know, there are organizations out there that are a lot more supportive than others.
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That's one thing to mention. You know, some higher education establishments can be very cutthroat, very, um, what's the right word to use?
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Old hat's the wrong word, 'cause I, I think that we, we need to maintain values in education. But for example, you miss that deadline, you're off the course, you've wasted your money, for example.
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There are other organizations like ourselves that we look at education on the individual level rather than on a cohort level, so it's like, right, you know, Pelum comes on our course, well, let's agree deadlines.
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When are these assignments coming in? You know, what topics are we gonna do them on? If you can't meet a deadline, let's communicate, let's look at how we can manage this going forwards.
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Now, we're not the only organization out there that do that, full transparency. You know, there are a lot of subject experts and great organizations out there, but we are one of them.
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So it's about asking people to consider if the barriers they've originally put up in their head around a higher education don't exist, what does it look like for them? Yeah, 'cause it could be around
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writing academically or writing competently and, and there's help people can get for that, if that's truly something they, they're challenged with.
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I mean, that's part of our induction process, so, you know, w-we don't have any entry requirements for our level seven qualification, and there's a reason for that.
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It's because we acknowledge that a lot of security professionals and military possibly went straight into the military or the emergency services straight out of school.
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So, you know, they don't possibly have academic writing skills, which in, in itself is a skill set. So whose responsibility is that? Well, it's a shared responsibility, isn't it?
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If we're gonna put someone on a qualification and we, we're gonna take a chance on them and we're gonna support them, then we have to make sure we support them, and that includes academic writing.
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So, but once again, there are other organizations that, well, that's the service user's problem. They shouldn't have signed up for it. Well, I think, I don't know if I... I do agree with that,
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if it's the context and if it's the type of topic and it's the type of organization. But we're the type of organization that our whole ethos is learning is for everybody.
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So if you're someone who's come out of education and you haven't got that higher education experience, well, that's a shared responsibility to support them to the point where they're able to study at that level.
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And if we take you on our program, we are taking on that responsibility and saying that we will share responsibility of getting you to the finish line. That makes sense, and that's actually quite reassuring.
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[laughs] If, if, if I'm a listener who thinks, "Oh dear, I've never written anything, ever," um, that, that, well, obviously not, not nothing, you know, but, but, but that is, that is reassuring, um, rather than- There's a lot of ac- there's a lot of academics who can write beautifully but have nothing to say.
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And then there's people that have got lots to say but just don't know how to put it down on paper. Now, that's an easier problem to fix. Yeah. You know what?
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I might take that as a snippet for the beginning of the interview. I like that. Um, but, but yeah, this is, this is good. So what's, what's next for you, Craig? Uh, where, where can we next find you? What's coming up?
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Any dates, uh, for the diary? Yeah, I mean, w-we're quite a, uh, we're quite a nimble and agile organization, Minerva Elite Performance.
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So as I said before, our, our, our sister company, Minerva Elite, which is ultra-high net worth close protection security organization.
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We're the, we're the, I don't like to use this terminology 'cause it's too military, but we're the training wing, if you will. Um, but you know, we're not training.
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We're education and consultancy and, and looking at sort of like developing B2B relationships and the individual through higher education.
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So in terms of what's next for us is reach as many service users who otherwise wouldn't have the confidence to explore these opportunities. You know, yes, we're a business, and yes, we need profit margins.
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Yes, we need to make profit, et cetera. But, you know, we're a veteran-owned company. Every single person who works in this organization is either a veteran, a spouse of a veteran, or emergency services.
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So for us, our why is to give back to the security and the armed forces community and open doors for them that they otherwise thought would never open. Um, and just, you know, exploring opportunities to,
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to give people confidence, to ex- to, to, to delve into this world because, you know, from my experience, it's achievable. People just don't think it is.
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So in terms of what's next for me, I suppose it's a little bit cringe, but continue the good fight. Very good.
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Well, Craig, thank you very much, and, uh, thank you to Minerva Elite for supporting the BBA and the magazine.
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Uh, we have beenVery pleased to have you on, and this has indeed been great to debunk and explore higher education, especially for the protector. A, a much, uh, looked at topic, and
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we need to give people a, a helping hand on occasion. So thank you very much, Craig. This has been another fantastic edition of the Circuit Magazine Podcast.
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[rock music] Well, thank you very much, Craig, and, uh, lovely to have, uh, Maneuver Elite on to talk about higher education. Uh, Elijah, do you think higher education can open the door?
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What, what, what are your sort of impressions? Well, the one thing that I come away with is realizing that this was a reality-based discussion.
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So, you know, it, it, it wasn't a, it wasn't a sales pitch for someone getting a doctorate or, [laughs] you know, uh, uh, getting a PhD. This was more like the reality of it is. If this is...
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If higher education speaks to you, and you can pursue that and use that to, to kinda, again, separate yourself from the pack, great.
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However, there's some things where it just won't be relevant to this part of our industry at this particular time because, uh, it's not the thing that necessarily our, our industry, um, uh, uses as the building blocks for, for advancement and growth.
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Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, beyond some of the professions, quote unquote, you know, l- lawyers and doctors, university education classically was kind of self-exploration, wasn't it? You know, it was- Mm.
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You know, pe- pe- people would, uh, study the classics, and they'd study- Sure... philosophy and, and so on. Sure. What, what do you think then could we, you know, learn from this?
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Are, are there any practical masters that would be like, ah, yes, absolutely? I mean, Craig mentioned business and management. Um, what, what, what are your thoughts on those areas?
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Well, if you'd asked me even before Craig said it, but, uh, again, he, he provided some great insight on it, I, I would've said the same thing.
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The, the, the business, um, side of our profession is the one I think is, is, is kind of the least valued maybe because it's the least sexy, uh, for those that kinda gravitate towards s- uh, protection work.
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Uh, but at the same time, it's, it's vital to longevity. And so anything that's gonna give you a deeper understanding of that, um, or some advanced levels in, in those areas there I think benefits you.
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So, um, I go back to saying again, if you have the investment or the time and, and the resources, and you were going to pursue higher education, if it's something that's practical, something that you can take and apply, uh, we talked about, you know, that that window maybe shrinks in, in our industry, but something like business is, I think, applicable and could, uh, you could use that and, and, and separate yourself, your company, your agency, or bring more value to another's company or agency, uh, uh, having those additional, you know, gems and jewels in your pocket.
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Love that. Yeah, 'cause a master's in war studies, yeah, it allows you to reflect on your time in the military, time in the services, but it's more for you. Mm-hmm. It's more for you.
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Um, I, I don't know if a master's in war studies from King's will m- give you that extra job.
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It might say, okay, you got analytical skills, but I th- I like what, what Craig's got- Wh- what, what about in the culinary arts, huh? What about that? Ah. [laughs] Yeah. Why not? Why not? Why not? I don't know.
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Um, so Elijah, I know I've got the London event next week on the 25th of, uh, January, but- Wait, wait. I gotta ask the question. Yeah.
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Do you currently hold the, the Guinness World Records for most events in a calendar year? I think you do. Maybe over COVID, because the number of events was bananas. [laughs] I think we did 72, uh, over, uh- Sh-...
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two, two years. And I'm not talking just, like, yo, yo, rock up to my webinar type event. Uh, it, it- Right. No, yours are official. Yeah. [laughs] So yeah.
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But, but, but, but, you know, the, the community, you the community, you the listener really have made it, uh, possible. Um, because if, if, if you weren't contributing, it wouldn't, wouldn't, uh, w- work.
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But yeah, thank, thank you for that, uh, shout-out, Elijah. Um- No, no, that's impressive. Well, what about, what about for you? Have you got any more courses coming up?
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I saw you, uh, uh, towards the end of last year very busy. Yeah, we had, we had an amazing course at the end of, um, November and December that rounded us off really well there.
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Um, you know, I guess keep, keeping with our topic today, I love education. I love teaching.
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Uh, however, this 2024 is gonna be nuts for me, so I won't get another course on the books probably until about the summer if I'm lucky, but maybe the fall. However, uh, looking forward to it.
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It's always a great, uh, change of pace from my operational tempo and schedule.
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Uh, but, uh, but in the meantime, I'm just excited about, one, trying to get some more podcasts under my belt and, uh, and two, we've got a new issue of The Circuit that'll be dropping soon, maybe by the time this, this airs, but we'll see.
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Absolutely. And, and yeah, we're always looking for that new story, that new angle, and we're gonna make sure that John, Sean, and Elijah feature on- [laughs]... uh, a podcast soon.
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It'll be, it'll be good to, uh, to get the gang back together. Let's make that happen. Fantastic. Well, thank you very much, uh, Craig and Maneuver Elite for helping us with the topic of higher education.
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Uh, yet still massive questions of how and why you're doing what you're doing, but as long as you know, I think you can't go too wrong. Is it for yourself? Is it for employment? Is it for something else?
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As long as you know. Right. So thank you very much. From Elijah and myself, this has been a fantastic edition of The Circuit Magazine Podcast.
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