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Welcome to ReFirement Life, the podcast for anyone navigating life transitions or planning
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to make life transitions to ensure your next years are your best years.
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Listen in for insightful, generous, and sometimes humorous conversation.
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It's time to get fired up with Christine Zamuda and Muge Wood, your hosts for this
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latest episode of ReFirement Life.
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Hello everyone, Muge Wood with my amazing co-host Christine Zamuda.
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Today we are very excited to bring you our episode number 39 that will focus on what
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we can learn from jazz to embrace an improvisational mindset for greater innovation.
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That is a lot, but we'll break it down for you.
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And it is about how we can drive even more rewarding innovation and leadership by unlearning
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all the time as inspired by jazz.
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This idea actually was brought to us by one of my amazing co-workers who is a jazz fan.
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And I saw this article in Harvard Business Review published by Dr. Frank Barrett.
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And Christine and I were very impressed and inspired by the parallels between jazz and
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improvisational leadership.
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So we are going to dig into this today, and I hope you enjoy the ride.
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Before we do so, let's talk about reflections from the past couple weeks.
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Christine, what have you been up to?
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I guess what's fresh off my mind is just having a non-traditional Easter weekend.
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So that's not good.
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I guess the good news was I didn't eat a ton of candy.
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And although my husband, who is 56 years old, still got an Easter basket from my sister
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law, it's a tradition.
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He's the baby of the family.
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And apparently it's going to go on forever.
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Okay.
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I have a lot of questions about that.
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What is in the basket?
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What's his name engraved on it?
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His name was engraved.
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Lots of candy, all kinds of sweets, all of his favorite stuff.
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Nothing that's adult though, like nothing.
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That is awesome.
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I absolutely love it.
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A 57-year-old would need.
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A 56.
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Yeah.
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So that was that.
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We were separated for the weekend.
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I traveled to Chicago.
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My niece was in a volleyball tournament, and I met her and my sister there in Chicago.
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My daughter came over, drove in from Michigan.
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So the four of us had a really great time watching her compete.
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They did a phenomenal job.
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It was the first time they were in this higher level tournament, and they actually won a bid
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to the junior Olympic tournament, which will be forthcoming.
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And for me, I had never seen volleyball at that level.
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We played volleyball in the backyard and didn't really know many of the rules, how to keep
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score.
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I guess score is pretty basic.
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But anyway, just got to see the camaraderie of this team and how fantastic they were.
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After every point, whether they won or lose, they huddled together on the court, a quick
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exchange of, hey, that's great.
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Keep focused.
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And it was just really inspiring just to see these young women support each other and also
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do so well at a young age.
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That's amazing.
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First of all, that sounds like an amazing new experience and the experience of being
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part of such high energy in person, I think is unmatched the absolute difference between
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doing something in person versus watching on TV.
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So I think you just made me think maybe I need to go experience that at some point because
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that's one of the few sports I think I haven't been a spectator to at that level.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Next up for me, they're going to do beach volleyball, which my niece is also very good
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at and I can't wait to see.
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It's a totally different game because there's only two people on the court.
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Of course, they're running across the sand and that's I think even more intense from
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a competition perspective.
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Yeah, I bet with the sand adding additional friction.
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So I wonder where the beach is at because as soon as you said beach, I'm like, yeah,
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that sounds good.
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I'll keep you posted.
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Yes, please do keep me posted.
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So speaking of being a spectator to a sport, Brad, my husband and I experienced our first
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official golf tournament about a week ago in Houston.
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We have never been to a golf tournament as a spectator before.
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This was a Father's Day present from last June.
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So we went to Houston Open, which is held in Houston, apparently almost every year.
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And it was who knew in our backyard.
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I'm like, that's easy.
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I think we could drive here.
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And it was an amazing experience.
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We just didn't know what to expect.
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How does this work?
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So we got this thing called the venue hopper, which apparently meant you have access to
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three different stands by three different holes and you have access to food, amenities,
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shade, you can hang out there or you can follow the player of your choice.
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We have done a little bit of both and it was just a great purposeful way of being outside,
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walking, cheering.
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And I learned a lot.
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I did not even know who is in this tournament.
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So I asked a couple young men sitting next to me.
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I said, do you know anyone famous as playing here?
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I don't recognize any of the players.
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They said, well, this is kind of a big tournament.
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The world's number one Scottish Airflare is here.
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I'm like, I knew that.
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That name is familiar.
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So I learned a lot.
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It was a fantastic day and it was also nice to see the community come together.
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So it was sponsored by Texas Children's Hospital, contributed to by M.D. Anderson.
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So you got like skin sunscreen everywhere and they are handing out lip balms and fans.
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I'm like, I'm loving this place.
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So it was a fantastic experience.
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That's awesome.
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That's awesome.
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Yeah, I mean, just to be outdoors, taking the fresh air, see people at the top of their
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game and golf is so wild to watch and the margins of error are just so small.
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Some of these long putts and crazy chips.
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Wild.
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Yes, that's exactly right.
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A lot of shots look absolutely improbable and then it happens and you're like, wow, this
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is defying physics, such skills, such precision.
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And even at times something looks easy and it doesn't work.
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You're like, oh, that is heartbreaking because the ball was almost there.
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So it is just amazing.
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And I guess also tying a little bit into our topic today, learning, recovering, unlearning,
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moving forward.
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I mean, all these players have to recover immediately and move on to the next hole.
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So not easy to do when a bunch of crowds are watching and cameras are recording.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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So with that, let's dive into our topic, which I think we both are very excited about.
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So a little bit about Frank Barrett, who is the author of this article that inspired us.
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He's a distinguished management professor and he's known for his innovative work for
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leadership and jazz improvisation.
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And I think his experience is what he's bringing forward is a reflection of his background,
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because not only is he an accomplished management professor, but he's also an accomplished jazz
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pianist.
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So putting that together, he has looked at the intersection of how the deep improvisational
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nature of jazz can translate into leadership.
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And he has authored several influential books, which I love the title of this one because
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it kind of mirrors what I tend to experience most of the time, which is yes to the mass
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and surprising leadership lessons from jazz and the power of improvisation, exploring
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the lessons of jazz in work and life.
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So as you were reading that article, Christine, what stood out to you right off the bat?
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What was the standout for you?
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Yeah, a couple of things.
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I think as he explained jazz, and I had heard this once before, there's a great book from
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a author and a speaker called Natalie Nixon, and she writes this book called The Creativity
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Leap and she also was very into the example of jazz.
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What I didn't know before I read that book, before I listened to this podcast, I was reminded
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of the fact that jazz musicians come together and while they'll have a song in mind, that
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song's never played the same way because it's an act of responding and reacting to someone
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who might play a chord a little bit differently.
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So they're listening to all of the layers of the music.
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They're listening to their opportunity and being what we call followers, good followers.
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And I think that's a perfect example of what leaders and great employees should be thinking
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about as well.
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I know from my own experience, sometimes I would be quick to just jump in and say, well,
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hey, have you thought about this?
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We did this idea before and maybe sometimes too soon.
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If you're taking the best of everyone at the table, it's good to maybe sit back, listen,
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react, respond, not be the first one to try and solve something.
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Right?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So what strikes me about this is we achieve success and get results behaving and practicing
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things in a certain way.
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And then that becomes our playbook.
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And then we keep wanting to repeat it because it worked for us in the past and music, sports,
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all of that is a, or any practice where you experience a lot of routines and rituals and
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you perfect it and refine it and you say, that's me.
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So, but then you keep repeating that without regard for what could be different than, you
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know, we are potentially missing out on the opportunity to change and adapt, especially
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in this particular era that we are in where changes around us constantly, being able to
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unlearn and also being able to shift between being a leader and a follower is really game
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changing and it is really hard to do because I think it pushes you out of your comfort
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zone and it may even create doubt, stress and insecurity because you are not doing what
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you're accustomed to doing.
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But what is the benefit of that?
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The benefit of being able to come up with new approaches, constantly learning, practicing
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and thriving in a different way.
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So when we look at that, Christina, have you experienced this personally in your life where
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you had to unlearn, maybe sort of let go of the past practices in a particular discipline
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and come up with a new way, either inspired by yourself or those around you?
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Yeah, I think a lot about the time when I was doing a lot of merger and acquisition work
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for Microsoft and we had tight deadlines and trying to figure out how do you bring this
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technology, how do you bring the people over quickly and start being productive on behalf
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of the company.
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And so we did have a playbook that we use quite often, but I think there was a moment
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of unlearning when we did the LinkedIn acquisition, which was very different than some of the other
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acquisitions we did.
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And in that situation, I think we listened and learned a lot more from what had been
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working successfully in that business, tried to make sure we didn't lose that secret sauce
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of what was making the users on that platform so happy and engaged.
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So I think that was definitely a time that I reflect on that was more about a new playbook
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and taking more from something that had already existed rather than what had worked for us
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in the past.
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What a great example.
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What a great example.
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I am experiencing this as well very much.
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I moved to a new job recently within Microsoft to lead our sustainability team in Americas.
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Our job is to help our customers with their data and analytical needs in the way that
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they report their environmental footprint.
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It's an emerging capability category for Microsoft.
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So we are in the second version of the product.
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And as we take it to our customers, the areas that we felt we are really strong in sometimes,
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maybe not as much.
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And some things that we didn't think was as strong actually ends up being a strong point.
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And we are constantly learning and hearing feedback.
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And at times it's tough because some are resulting in loss, some are resulting in wins, but we
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have to continually remind ourselves to learn, move on, adapt and evolve essentially.
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So it is a similarity I think to somewhat an emerging product category or a startup mindset
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because the same playbook is absolutely not going to work.
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So you have to keep rewriting the playbook.
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I think it's important to have a playbook and have a structure, a framework and approach
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where you're executing with intent, but then be so open to learn not only from wins, but
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also mistakes.
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Absolutely.
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And taking the time to stop and reflect on those learnings and sharing beyond your team
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is super important too.
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Yes, absolutely.
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So I think that brings me to another point.
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How can we cultivate that learning mindset?
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Because a lot of times I think we're excited about the wins, the results, the achievement
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is we should because those are to be celebrated.
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So when we talk about performance and progress, that typically in our minds result to achievement,
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whatever we were going for.
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But then how can we cultivate a mindset where we are creating the forum to reflect, to learn
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from mistakes and to make sure that those insights are also just as valuable in a non-judgmental
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way because it is hard to do.
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It is hard to do.
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Yeah, I think one thing, whether you're a leader or an individual contributor or just
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moving about your daily life, if someone brings you a challenge or a problem, being first
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open and receptive to hearing it, but then asking them, do you want me to solution this
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with you?
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Do you want me to just listen so you can vent or do you want me to solve your problem?
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And then figuring out, okay, where do we go from there?
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Because if you give people space to kind of germinate the conversation and have the opportunity
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to really share what's top of mind, I believe the outcomes are going to be generally better
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in terms of next steps.
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Yeah, very true.
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And I think you brought up a great point about the power of teamwork and collaboration.
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It may sometimes be difficult for us to do this all by ourselves, but when we are doing
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with those we work with, whether it's our family, friends, community, work colleagues,
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so actually Dr. Barrett in his article has a section on this, right?
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Work and collaboration and he tells the story of Miles Davis, obviously very famous jazz
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musician where he created the top selling album that still sells million records a year called
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Kind of Blue.
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But how they recorded that is, the story goes that it was very different from traditional
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jazz and I'm not a music person, I'm probably not appreciating this completely.
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But it was a slower chord progression, so he came into the recording studio and said he
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wants to try this different approach.
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And almost fairly quickly he told his engineer to start recording this new way of making
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music which was a little startling to people around them, which ended up being one of the
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best records and a unique album at first take.
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And these musicians had to use all they knew in real time to improvise and catch up with
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this.
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And I think the particular statement Miles Davis made that Dr. Barrett is calling out,
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which I love is if you are not making a mistake, that is a mistake.
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So I think just taking the pause, thoughtful pause, stepping back, learning from it without
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fear or maybe without as much fear as may come to us, I thought that was pretty profound.
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Totally, totally.
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And just think about these musicians.
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First, they're playing with Miles Davis, right?
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So it's like, you know, the best of the best.
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And then he shows them something new, never practiced, and says, okay, it's go time.
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We're going to record, which means everyone will hear their rawness and being very vulnerable,
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of course, being talented, wanting to do your best.
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I bet that was a pretty intense feeling.
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Yet here, years later, this album is still selling like a million copies a year still.
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And what an awesome thing for him to really push these musicians to do something new,
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to make something that's still a gift to so many.
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I think, yes, it's amazing.
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And I cannot even probably fully appreciate the kind of fulfillment that comes with that,
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but also the growth spurt in a way that it instigates.
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It seems like you're growing in leaps and bounds when you take an approach like this.
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And it is uncomfortable probably at the same time, maybe having a mindset of, okay, what
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is the worst that can happen?
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There's a path to recovery if it fails, just, you know, repeat, move on, learn and move
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on.
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And in this instance, it's just remarkable that creating this album in the first take.
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Yeah.
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It's totally wild, totally wild.
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So I hope you lead your next team meeting with, it's a mistake not to make mistakes.
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Yes, that's right.
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And I think I need to start playing some jazz in the background to inspire.
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Actually, we have a team offsite coming up in Chicago.
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And maybe this does need to be brought up as inspiration because it really holds true,
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especially in every field, but even more so in technology where everything is evolving
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as we speak.
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So let's touch upon also what I think Dr. Baird is calling out as collaborative dynamics.
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You mentioned that earlier, Christine, the role of individuals on the team, the role
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of the leader, I think we may look at leaders to say, hey, you know, you set the tone, you
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create the forum, you lead, we follow.
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At the same time, though, I think everyone can be a leader in their own right and contribute
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to the outcome, the forum, I think the importance of active participation, collaboration and
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contribution, kind of effective followership.
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It's sometimes easy to just sit back, watch for it to unfold, and then maybe even go in
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with criticism or even a negative perspective.
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But if you haven't actively participated, contributed to shape it to what you want to
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be, it is hard to be, it's hard to be critical.
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So that all goes back to, I think, something that I am particularly passionate about, which
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is feedback.
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I am absolutely the person, you know, you go stay at a hotel, a restaurant, you get a
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survey, fill those 100% of the time because you got to give feedback if you are going
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to affect change.
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So what are your thoughts on that?
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Yeah, I mean, this word followership, I had never really heard that word use.
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Maybe I'm not running in the same circles, but we have so many books on leadership.
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Have you ever seen a book, How to be an Effective Follower?
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No, not really.
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I mean, also, I don't think you say I am a very effective follower and people are like,
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well, that's fantastic.
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We need more of people like you.
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I know, instantly you think sheep.
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Right, right.
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No, next.
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Yes, you normally don't see that on anyone's resume.
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So about leader, influencer, yes, that's right.
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Right, right.
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But if we're honest with ourselves, and I was thinking about really reflecting on this
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notion of followership, I think I became a better follower once I was a manager, and
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then I went back to an individual contributor role because you understand a little bit more
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about what it takes to lead a team and why is that challenging and why things are never
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the same and all of that.
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So I think there's something definitely to be said for being a good follower.
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And for maybe those who've never been a manager, you're still leading in different ways.
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You're leading in your family.
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You might be leading on a sports team.
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There's ways to draw parallels.
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And again, just being collaborative and being someone who is adding to the process, not
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detracting from the momentum, the opportunity to solve a problem is important.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I think I like the bit of expanded and updated notion of effective followership as
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it is called in this article because it's not just about following instructions and executing
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on a given playbook, but it's also about with the empowerment to improvise the freedom that
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you experience with that, that actually brings out potentially your creativity, the best
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of who you are and what you can do is also part of that followership experience with
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the right leadership in place.
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So I think the call out on how empowerment and autonomy that can be part of that improvisational
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approach is something we probably all want to be able to thrive.
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Yeah, I agree.
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I think this is an important point because to what we were talking about earlier, followership
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is different than just following directions.
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And specifically what Dr. Barrett says is effective followership involves individuals
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taking initiative, exercising autonomy, and contributing to their unique talents and perspectives
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to achieve shared objectives.
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And that's very different than just, oh, here's the directions, I'm going to follow
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it, right?
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Right.
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That's right.
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I think there's a lot that goes into it.
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And in order to create the circumstances where improvisation, learning from mistakes and
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learning in general also requires the foundation of mutual respect and trust.
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Without those things, it is probably hard to achieve any of this.
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So I think when in the story of how Miles Davis said, hey, we are going to hit record,
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I think there was a level of trust, confidence, and respect for the other musicians in the
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room, he didn't doubt their skills and say, this is the first take of many, let's just
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give it a go.
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He just went.
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And the result was amazing.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So when you think about this, how do you think leaders can set their teams up for success
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here?
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Because a lot of this is cued from the manager, right?
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They have to create an area of psychological safety, they have to lead from example, but
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I'm also thinking in my mind, not lead so much that it's overpowering and it's only
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that individual's ideas.
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Yeah.
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I think it's definitely a tough balance because you can go in either direction.
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You can have absolute freedom, but no structure, no shared principles and values where you
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feel almost not supported.
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Or it can go totally on the other hand, where it is channeled through the leader and everything
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has to be run by this person.
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So I think the answer in my mind, the kind of environment we want to be part of is somewhere
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in between in the sense that I think we do need some operating principles, minimal structure
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that outlines our values on how we operate, what we say yes to and how we learn and how
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we support one another.
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But after that is agreed upon, understood, then it's a go time.
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I think people need to exercise the freedom autonomy within the agreed upon structure
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to do what they are asked to do.
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And that structure also needs to be subject to change based on the learning.
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So I think it's a delicate balance.
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And that's, I think, not only approaching the team as a whole, but also how to exercise
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and approach the individuals on the team, because some individuals may appreciate a little
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more structure whereas others don't.
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So that's where I think the improvisation comes into play.
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But I think, you know, I am a big fan and beneficiary of, in my past experiences, just common operating
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principles, how we work, how we learn and then be free to exercise, take action.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think striking that balance is the big, if you nail that, you really open up the door
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for creativity, having a balance between like wonder and the rigor of the job.
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It is hard.
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We don't really know balance is hard in any dimension of life because we tend to go to
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extremes, whether it's exercise, diet, you know, watching shows.
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So it is balance is hard.
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But I think the fine tuning of that and having that adaptive mindset, it can help towards
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that.
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And I think at the end of all of that, which I appreciate particularly today's podcast,
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just thoughtful pause to see what are we doing?
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Why are we doing it?
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How are we doing it?
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And approach it as a community, as a team to the extent possible.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Staying curious, right?
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Because I think curiosity is the engine that drives creativity.
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Yes.
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And learning.
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And learning, right?
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Right.
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That's right.
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So, a lot to reflect on here is we approach the end of our podcast today.
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Christine, what do you think some of our key takeaways are for our listeners?
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Yeah.
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I think, well, for sure, we're going to post the link to the original 20-minute discussion
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with Frank Barrett.
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So our listeners can go deeper on that and form their own impressions.
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And I think after listening and after hopefully we provoke some thoughts here is being more
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aware and thinking, am I being a great accompanist to some of these ideas as a leader?
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Am I creating space for new ideas to be brought forward, to test, to grow, to ensure that
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people feel safe trying things in a growth mindset way?
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And I think the other resource that I mentioned is the book by Natalie Nixon, Creativity
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Leap, and I found it to be really helpful.
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I read it four years ago, but I think it still is a great resource for anyone who wants to
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go deeper on this topic.
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That's awesome.
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And I think a little homework and reflection for all of us is, where can we improvise more
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in our lives and create that space with a little pool to say, okay, how are things going?
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How can we adapt?
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How can we do better?
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We probably can do that.
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And letting go of some of the fears of failure.
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So we can really go be the best that we can be in any dimension that we care.
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So it's continuous practice.
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It really is, I think.
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Right, right.
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And we mentioned Kind of Blue, the Miles Davis album.
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I think it would be good for our listeners just to take a listen to that amazing piece
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of music and art and soak it in and get some inspiration from that as well.
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Yeah, that's a great call out.
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That's a great call out.
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We talked a little about jazz.
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I think we need to give that a listen.
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And maybe not only listen at home, but we may even seek out a live performance at some
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point somewhere.
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Which would be also nice.
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Awesome.
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Thank you, Christine, for being my awesome co-host today on this topic.
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And thank you for listening.
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Till the next time.
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Till the next time.
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00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:40,240
Thank you for listening.
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00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,320
Our hope is to spark a little joy, inspire, and educate our listeners in ways to live
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an even more meaningful life.
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If you have reactions to share from what you've heard, please visit our website, refinement.org.
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00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:53,440
Or visit our website, refinement.org.
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00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,600
To leave a voice message, you may even be featured in a future episode.
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00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,640
To keep in touch, subscribe to our podcast, Refirement Life, using the podcast player
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of your choice.
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00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:09,800
Always remember, you are never too old to set a new goal or to dream a new dream.
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Thanks again for joining us on this episode.
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Till next time.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,800
Welcome to ReFirement Life, the podcast for anyone navigating life transitions or planning
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00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:11,520
to make life transitions to ensure your next years are your best years.
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Listen in for insightful, generous, and sometimes humorous conversation.
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It's time to get fired up with Christine Zamuda and Muge Wood, your hosts for this
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00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:29,200
latest episode of ReFirement Life.
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Hello everyone, Muge Wood with my amazing co-host Christine Zamuda.
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Today we are very excited to bring you our episode number 39 that will focus on what
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we can learn from jazz to embrace an improvisational mindset for greater innovation.
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That is a lot, but we'll break it down for you.
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And it is about how we can drive even more rewarding innovation and leadership by unlearning
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all the time as inspired by jazz.
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This idea actually was brought to us by one of my amazing co-workers who is a jazz fan.
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And I saw this article in Harvard Business Review published by Dr. Frank Barrett.
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And Christine and I were very impressed and inspired by the parallels between jazz and
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improvisational leadership.
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So we are going to dig into this today, and I hope you enjoy the ride.
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Before we do so, let's talk about reflections from the past couple weeks.
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Christine, what have you been up to?
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I guess what's fresh off my mind is just having a non-traditional Easter weekend.
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So that's not good.
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I guess the good news was I didn't eat a ton of candy.
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And although my husband, who is 56 years old, still got an Easter basket from my sister
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law, it's a tradition.
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He's the baby of the family.
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And apparently it's going to go on forever.
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Okay.
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I have a lot of questions about that.
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What is in the basket?
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What's his name engraved on it?
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His name was engraved.
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Lots of candy, all kinds of sweets, all of his favorite stuff.
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Nothing that's adult though, like nothing.
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That is awesome.
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I absolutely love it.
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A 57-year-old would need.
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A 56.
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Yeah.
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So that was that.
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We were separated for the weekend.
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I traveled to Chicago.
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My niece was in a volleyball tournament, and I met her and my sister there in Chicago.
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My daughter came over, drove in from Michigan.
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So the four of us had a really great time watching her compete.
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They did a phenomenal job.
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It was the first time they were in this higher level tournament, and they actually won a bid
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to the junior Olympic tournament, which will be forthcoming.
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And for me, I had never seen volleyball at that level.
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We played volleyball in the backyard and didn't really know many of the rules, how to keep
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score.
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I guess score is pretty basic.
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But anyway, just got to see the camaraderie of this team and how fantastic they were.
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After every point, whether they won or lose, they huddled together on the court, a quick
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exchange of, hey, that's great.
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Keep focused.
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And it was just really inspiring just to see these young women support each other and also
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do so well at a young age.
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That's amazing.
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First of all, that sounds like an amazing new experience and the experience of being
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part of such high energy in person, I think is unmatched the absolute difference between
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doing something in person versus watching on TV.
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So I think you just made me think maybe I need to go experience that at some point because
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that's one of the few sports I think I haven't been a spectator to at that level.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Next up for me, they're going to do beach volleyball, which my niece is also very good
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at and I can't wait to see.
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It's a totally different game because there's only two people on the court.
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Of course, they're running across the sand and that's I think even more intense from
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a competition perspective.
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Yeah, I bet with the sand adding additional friction.
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So I wonder where the beach is at because as soon as you said beach, I'm like, yeah,
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that sounds good.
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I'll keep you posted.
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Yes, please do keep me posted.
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So speaking of being a spectator to a sport, Brad, my husband and I experienced our first
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official golf tournament about a week ago in Houston.
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We have never been to a golf tournament as a spectator before.
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This was a Father's Day present from last June.
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So we went to Houston Open, which is held in Houston, apparently almost every year.
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And it was who knew in our backyard.
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I'm like, that's easy.
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I think we could drive here.
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And it was an amazing experience.
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We just didn't know what to expect.
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How does this work?
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So we got this thing called the venue hopper, which apparently meant you have access to
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three different stands by three different holes and you have access to food, amenities,
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shade, you can hang out there or you can follow the player of your choice.
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We have done a little bit of both and it was just a great purposeful way of being outside,
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walking, cheering.
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And I learned a lot.
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I did not even know who is in this tournament.
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So I asked a couple young men sitting next to me.
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I said, do you know anyone famous as playing here?
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I don't recognize any of the players.
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They said, well, this is kind of a big tournament.
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The world's number one Scottish Airflare is here.
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I'm like, I knew that.
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That name is familiar.
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So I learned a lot.
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It was a fantastic day and it was also nice to see the community come together.
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So it was sponsored by Texas Children's Hospital, contributed to by M.D. Anderson.
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So you got like skin sunscreen everywhere and they are handing out lip balms and fans.
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I'm like, I'm loving this place.
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So it was a fantastic experience.
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That's awesome.
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That's awesome.
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Yeah, I mean, just to be outdoors, taking the fresh air, see people at the top of their
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game and golf is so wild to watch and the margins of error are just so small.
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Some of these long putts and crazy chips.
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Wild.
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Yes, that's exactly right.
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A lot of shots look absolutely improbable and then it happens and you're like, wow, this
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is defying physics, such skills, such precision.
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And even at times something looks easy and it doesn't work.
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You're like, oh, that is heartbreaking because the ball was almost there.
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So it is just amazing.
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And I guess also tying a little bit into our topic today, learning, recovering, unlearning,
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moving forward.
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I mean, all these players have to recover immediately and move on to the next hole.
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So not easy to do when a bunch of crowds are watching and cameras are recording.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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So with that, let's dive into our topic, which I think we both are very excited about.
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So a little bit about Frank Barrett, who is the author of this article that inspired us.
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He's a distinguished management professor and he's known for his innovative work for
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leadership and jazz improvisation.
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And I think his experience is what he's bringing forward is a reflection of his background,
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because not only is he an accomplished management professor, but he's also an accomplished jazz
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pianist.
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So putting that together, he has looked at the intersection of how the deep improvisational
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nature of jazz can translate into leadership.
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And he has authored several influential books, which I love the title of this one because
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it kind of mirrors what I tend to experience most of the time, which is yes to the mass
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and surprising leadership lessons from jazz and the power of improvisation, exploring
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the lessons of jazz in work and life.
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So as you were reading that article, Christine, what stood out to you right off the bat?
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What was the standout for you?
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Yeah, a couple of things.
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I think as he explained jazz, and I had heard this once before, there's a great book from
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a author and a speaker called Natalie Nixon, and she writes this book called The Creativity
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Leap and she also was very into the example of jazz.
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What I didn't know before I read that book, before I listened to this podcast, I was reminded
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of the fact that jazz musicians come together and while they'll have a song in mind, that
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song's never played the same way because it's an act of responding and reacting to someone
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who might play a chord a little bit differently.
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So they're listening to all of the layers of the music.
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They're listening to their opportunity and being what we call followers, good followers.
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And I think that's a perfect example of what leaders and great employees should be thinking
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about as well.
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I know from my own experience, sometimes I would be quick to just jump in and say, well,
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hey, have you thought about this?
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We did this idea before and maybe sometimes too soon.
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If you're taking the best of everyone at the table, it's good to maybe sit back, listen,
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react, respond, not be the first one to try and solve something.
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Right?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So what strikes me about this is we achieve success and get results behaving and practicing
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things in a certain way.
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And then that becomes our playbook.
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And then we keep wanting to repeat it because it worked for us in the past and music, sports,
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all of that is a, or any practice where you experience a lot of routines and rituals and
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you perfect it and refine it and you say, that's me.
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So, but then you keep repeating that without regard for what could be different than, you
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know, we are potentially missing out on the opportunity to change and adapt, especially
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in this particular era that we are in where changes around us constantly, being able to
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unlearn and also being able to shift between being a leader and a follower is really game
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changing and it is really hard to do because I think it pushes you out of your comfort
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zone and it may even create doubt, stress and insecurity because you are not doing what
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you're accustomed to doing.
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But what is the benefit of that?
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The benefit of being able to come up with new approaches, constantly learning, practicing
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and thriving in a different way.
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So when we look at that, Christina, have you experienced this personally in your life where
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you had to unlearn, maybe sort of let go of the past practices in a particular discipline
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and come up with a new way, either inspired by yourself or those around you?
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Yeah, I think a lot about the time when I was doing a lot of merger and acquisition work
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for Microsoft and we had tight deadlines and trying to figure out how do you bring this
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technology, how do you bring the people over quickly and start being productive on behalf
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of the company.
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And so we did have a playbook that we use quite often, but I think there was a moment
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of unlearning when we did the LinkedIn acquisition, which was very different than some of the other
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acquisitions we did.
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And in that situation, I think we listened and learned a lot more from what had been
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working successfully in that business, tried to make sure we didn't lose that secret sauce
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of what was making the users on that platform so happy and engaged.
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So I think that was definitely a time that I reflect on that was more about a new playbook
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and taking more from something that had already existed rather than what had worked for us
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in the past.
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What a great example.
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What a great example.
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I am experiencing this as well very much.
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I moved to a new job recently within Microsoft to lead our sustainability team in Americas.
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Our job is to help our customers with their data and analytical needs in the way that
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they report their environmental footprint.
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It's an emerging capability category for Microsoft.
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So we are in the second version of the product.
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And as we take it to our customers, the areas that we felt we are really strong in sometimes,
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maybe not as much.
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And some things that we didn't think was as strong actually ends up being a strong point.
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And we are constantly learning and hearing feedback.
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And at times it's tough because some are resulting in loss, some are resulting in wins, but we
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have to continually remind ourselves to learn, move on, adapt and evolve essentially.
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So it is a similarity I think to somewhat an emerging product category or a startup mindset
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because the same playbook is absolutely not going to work.
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So you have to keep rewriting the playbook.
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I think it's important to have a playbook and have a structure, a framework and approach
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where you're executing with intent, but then be so open to learn not only from wins, but
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also mistakes.
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Absolutely.
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And taking the time to stop and reflect on those learnings and sharing beyond your team
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is super important too.
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Yes, absolutely.
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So I think that brings me to another point.
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How can we cultivate that learning mindset?
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Because a lot of times I think we're excited about the wins, the results, the achievement
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is we should because those are to be celebrated.
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So when we talk about performance and progress, that typically in our minds result to achievement,
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whatever we were going for.
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But then how can we cultivate a mindset where we are creating the forum to reflect, to learn
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from mistakes and to make sure that those insights are also just as valuable in a non-judgmental
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way because it is hard to do.
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It is hard to do.
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Yeah, I think one thing, whether you're a leader or an individual contributor or just
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moving about your daily life, if someone brings you a challenge or a problem, being first
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open and receptive to hearing it, but then asking them, do you want me to solution this
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with you?
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Do you want me to just listen so you can vent or do you want me to solve your problem?
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And then figuring out, okay, where do we go from there?
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Because if you give people space to kind of germinate the conversation and have the opportunity
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to really share what's top of mind, I believe the outcomes are going to be generally better
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in terms of next steps.
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Yeah, very true.
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And I think you brought up a great point about the power of teamwork and collaboration.
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It may sometimes be difficult for us to do this all by ourselves, but when we are doing
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with those we work with, whether it's our family, friends, community, work colleagues,
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so actually Dr. Barrett in his article has a section on this, right?
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Work and collaboration and he tells the story of Miles Davis, obviously very famous jazz
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musician where he created the top selling album that still sells million records a year called
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Kind of Blue.
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But how they recorded that is, the story goes that it was very different from traditional
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jazz and I'm not a music person, I'm probably not appreciating this completely.
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But it was a slower chord progression, so he came into the recording studio and said he
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wants to try this different approach.
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And almost fairly quickly he told his engineer to start recording this new way of making
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music which was a little startling to people around them, which ended up being one of the
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best records and a unique album at first take.
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And these musicians had to use all they knew in real time to improvise and catch up with
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this.
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And I think the particular statement Miles Davis made that Dr. Barrett is calling out,
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which I love is if you are not making a mistake, that is a mistake.
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So I think just taking the pause, thoughtful pause, stepping back, learning from it without
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fear or maybe without as much fear as may come to us, I thought that was pretty profound.
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Totally, totally.
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And just think about these musicians.
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First, they're playing with Miles Davis, right?
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So it's like, you know, the best of the best.
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And then he shows them something new, never practiced, and says, okay, it's go time.
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We're going to record, which means everyone will hear their rawness and being very vulnerable,
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of course, being talented, wanting to do your best.
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I bet that was a pretty intense feeling.
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Yet here, years later, this album is still selling like a million copies a year still.
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And what an awesome thing for him to really push these musicians to do something new,
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to make something that's still a gift to so many.
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I think, yes, it's amazing.
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And I cannot even probably fully appreciate the kind of fulfillment that comes with that,
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but also the growth spurt in a way that it instigates.
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It seems like you're growing in leaps and bounds when you take an approach like this.
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And it is uncomfortable probably at the same time, maybe having a mindset of, okay, what
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is the worst that can happen?
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There's a path to recovery if it fails, just, you know, repeat, move on, learn and move
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on.
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And in this instance, it's just remarkable that creating this album in the first take.
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Yeah.
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It's totally wild, totally wild.
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So I hope you lead your next team meeting with, it's a mistake not to make mistakes.
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Yes, that's right.
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And I think I need to start playing some jazz in the background to inspire.
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Actually, we have a team offsite coming up in Chicago.
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And maybe this does need to be brought up as inspiration because it really holds true,
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especially in every field, but even more so in technology where everything is evolving
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as we speak.
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So let's touch upon also what I think Dr. Baird is calling out as collaborative dynamics.
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You mentioned that earlier, Christine, the role of individuals on the team, the role
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of the leader, I think we may look at leaders to say, hey, you know, you set the tone, you
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create the forum, you lead, we follow.
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At the same time, though, I think everyone can be a leader in their own right and contribute
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to the outcome, the forum, I think the importance of active participation, collaboration and
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contribution, kind of effective followership.
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It's sometimes easy to just sit back, watch for it to unfold, and then maybe even go in
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with criticism or even a negative perspective.
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But if you haven't actively participated, contributed to shape it to what you want to
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be, it is hard to be, it's hard to be critical.
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So that all goes back to, I think, something that I am particularly passionate about, which
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is feedback.
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I am absolutely the person, you know, you go stay at a hotel, a restaurant, you get a
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survey, fill those 100% of the time because you got to give feedback if you are going
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to affect change.
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So what are your thoughts on that?
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Yeah, I mean, this word followership, I had never really heard that word use.
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Maybe I'm not running in the same circles, but we have so many books on leadership.
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Have you ever seen a book, How to be an Effective Follower?
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No, not really.
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I mean, also, I don't think you say I am a very effective follower and people are like,
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well, that's fantastic.
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We need more of people like you.
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I know, instantly you think sheep.
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Right, right.
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No, next.
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Yes, you normally don't see that on anyone's resume.
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So about leader, influencer, yes, that's right.
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Right, right.
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But if we're honest with ourselves, and I was thinking about really reflecting on this
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notion of followership, I think I became a better follower once I was a manager, and
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then I went back to an individual contributor role because you understand a little bit more
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about what it takes to lead a team and why is that challenging and why things are never
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the same and all of that.
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So I think there's something definitely to be said for being a good follower.
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And for maybe those who've never been a manager, you're still leading in different ways.
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You're leading in your family.
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You might be leading on a sports team.
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There's ways to draw parallels.
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And again, just being collaborative and being someone who is adding to the process, not
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detracting from the momentum, the opportunity to solve a problem is important.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I think I like the bit of expanded and updated notion of effective followership as
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it is called in this article because it's not just about following instructions and executing
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on a given playbook, but it's also about with the empowerment to improvise the freedom that
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you experience with that, that actually brings out potentially your creativity, the best
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of who you are and what you can do is also part of that followership experience with
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the right leadership in place.
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So I think the call out on how empowerment and autonomy that can be part of that improvisational
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approach is something we probably all want to be able to thrive.
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Yeah, I agree.
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I think this is an important point because to what we were talking about earlier, followership
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is different than just following directions.
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And specifically what Dr. Barrett says is effective followership involves individuals
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taking initiative, exercising autonomy, and contributing to their unique talents and perspectives
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to achieve shared objectives.
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And that's very different than just, oh, here's the directions, I'm going to follow
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it, right?
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Right.
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That's right.
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I think there's a lot that goes into it.
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And in order to create the circumstances where improvisation, learning from mistakes and
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learning in general also requires the foundation of mutual respect and trust.
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Without those things, it is probably hard to achieve any of this.
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So I think when in the story of how Miles Davis said, hey, we are going to hit record,
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I think there was a level of trust, confidence, and respect for the other musicians in the
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room, he didn't doubt their skills and say, this is the first take of many, let's just
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give it a go.
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He just went.
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And the result was amazing.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So when you think about this, how do you think leaders can set their teams up for success
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here?
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Because a lot of this is cued from the manager, right?
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They have to create an area of psychological safety, they have to lead from example, but
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I'm also thinking in my mind, not lead so much that it's overpowering and it's only
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that individual's ideas.
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Yeah.
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I think it's definitely a tough balance because you can go in either direction.
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You can have absolute freedom, but no structure, no shared principles and values where you
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feel almost not supported.
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Or it can go totally on the other hand, where it is channeled through the leader and everything
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has to be run by this person.
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So I think the answer in my mind, the kind of environment we want to be part of is somewhere
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in between in the sense that I think we do need some operating principles, minimal structure
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that outlines our values on how we operate, what we say yes to and how we learn and how
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we support one another.
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But after that is agreed upon, understood, then it's a go time.
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I think people need to exercise the freedom autonomy within the agreed upon structure
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to do what they are asked to do.
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And that structure also needs to be subject to change based on the learning.
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So I think it's a delicate balance.
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And that's, I think, not only approaching the team as a whole, but also how to exercise
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and approach the individuals on the team, because some individuals may appreciate a little
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more structure whereas others don't.
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So that's where I think the improvisation comes into play.
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But I think, you know, I am a big fan and beneficiary of, in my past experiences, just common operating
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principles, how we work, how we learn and then be free to exercise, take action.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think striking that balance is the big, if you nail that, you really open up the door
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for creativity, having a balance between like wonder and the rigor of the job.
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It is hard.
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We don't really know balance is hard in any dimension of life because we tend to go to
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extremes, whether it's exercise, diet, you know, watching shows.
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So it is balance is hard.
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But I think the fine tuning of that and having that adaptive mindset, it can help towards
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that.
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And I think at the end of all of that, which I appreciate particularly today's podcast,
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just thoughtful pause to see what are we doing?
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Why are we doing it?
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How are we doing it?
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And approach it as a community, as a team to the extent possible.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Staying curious, right?
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Because I think curiosity is the engine that drives creativity.
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Yes.
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And learning.
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And learning, right?
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Right.
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That's right.
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So, a lot to reflect on here is we approach the end of our podcast today.
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Christine, what do you think some of our key takeaways are for our listeners?
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Yeah.
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I think, well, for sure, we're going to post the link to the original 20-minute discussion
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with Frank Barrett.
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So our listeners can go deeper on that and form their own impressions.
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And I think after listening and after hopefully we provoke some thoughts here is being more
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aware and thinking, am I being a great accompanist to some of these ideas as a leader?
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Am I creating space for new ideas to be brought forward, to test, to grow, to ensure that
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people feel safe trying things in a growth mindset way?
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And I think the other resource that I mentioned is the book by Natalie Nixon, Creativity
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Leap, and I found it to be really helpful.
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I read it four years ago, but I think it still is a great resource for anyone who wants to
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go deeper on this topic.
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That's awesome.
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And I think a little homework and reflection for all of us is, where can we improvise more
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in our lives and create that space with a little pool to say, okay, how are things going?
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How can we adapt?
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How can we do better?
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We probably can do that.
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And letting go of some of the fears of failure.
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So we can really go be the best that we can be in any dimension that we care.
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So it's continuous practice.
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It really is, I think.
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Right, right.
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And we mentioned Kind of Blue, the Miles Davis album.
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I think it would be good for our listeners just to take a listen to that amazing piece
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of music and art and soak it in and get some inspiration from that as well.
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00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,760
Yeah, that's a great call out.
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00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:11,760
That's a great call out.
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We talked a little about jazz.
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I think we need to give that a listen.
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And maybe not only listen at home, but we may even seek out a live performance at some
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point somewhere.
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Which would be also nice.
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Awesome.
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Thank you, Christine, for being my awesome co-host today on this topic.
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And thank you for listening.
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Till the next time.
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Till the next time.
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00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:40,240
Thank you for listening.
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00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,320
Our hope is to spark a little joy, inspire, and educate our listeners in ways to live
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an even more meaningful life.
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If you have reactions to share from what you've heard, please visit our website, refinement.org.
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00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:53,440
Or visit our website, refinement.org.
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00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,600
To leave a voice message, you may even be featured in a future episode.
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00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,640
To keep in touch, subscribe to our podcast, Refirement Life, using the podcast player
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of your choice.
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00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:09,800
Always remember, you are never too old to set a new goal or to dream a new dream.
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Thanks again for joining us on this episode.
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Till next time.
