Do No Harm

WEBVTT
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Behind every prison sentence is a human story.
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I'm Dr.
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Karen Gidney.
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For thirty years I practiced medicine inside the Nevada prison system.
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In prison unlocked, I sit down with former inmates, correctional officers, prison leaders, volunteers, and others whose lives have been shaped by incarceration.
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Together, we're opening the door to a world most people never see.
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This is prison unlocked.
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Raw conversations from both sides of the wall.
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Today I have the great pleasure of introducing Forrest Fessick.
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Fasic.
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All right.
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I have known Forrest for quite a number of years, and he was one of the prison nurses inside the prison, and I knew he had a unique background coming into the prison.
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I knew he was involved with law enforcement and airplanes, and that he had worked in different situations before deciding to come into the prison world.
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So, Forrest, if you could summarize, what is your background before the prison and why did you actually decide I'm going to now become a prison nurse?
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I went to nursing school when I was 18, graduated when I was 20, and used my nursing degree as a means of paying for my undergrad.
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My goal eventually was going to be going to medical school.
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I needed a way to apply to pay for my undergrad and then get money saved up for medical school.
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Since I was a teenager, had been an airplane owner and a pilot, which sucks up a huge amount of money.
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I would think so.
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Yeah, it does.
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Yeah, money pits, and I needed a way to pay for my airplane habit and pay for undergrad.
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So I got a degree in oceanography with minors in organic chemistry and also anatomy, physiology, and then took my MCATs and started applying for medical school.
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Once I started getting accepted to medical schools, I had to sit and decide if I was actually going to do it, which it took a long, serious look in the mirror, and I decided that I did not have the drive.
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I didn't have the discipline, and I was really lacking the desire.
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I backed out of that path and continued as an RN for a number of years in Sonoma County.
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And then in Bay Area, I worked at San Francisco General Hospital, Oakland Highland Trauma Center as an emergency room nurse, and eventually came to Reno as one of the original flight nurses with the care flight helicopter program and did that for a couple years until I had really had my fill of nursing as a career, because that was not my original plan in life, and I was getting bored.
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I was looking for something else to do, and the sheriff's office that I'd worked for as a flight nurse in Santa Rosa had contacted me and wanted me to come over to Sonoma County and as a deputy, so I could work on the helicopter as both the deputy and the flight nurse.
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And so I applied and went to the police academy, and that's what I did for another next 16 years.
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After 16 years of that, I'd really had enough of that.
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So I built up a flying career on the side.
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Apart from working as a deputy, I always had flying jobs, corporate jobs and flying checks and other ferry and airplanes.
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So I took a corporate flying job then in Las Vegas, and then from there I went up to Alaska and flew up in Alaska full-time in the Arctic as a commercial pilot up there.
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Did that for a number of years and then had a medical issue where I lost my medical, couldn't fly.
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So on the spur of the moment, I decided I'll renew my RN license.
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And I checked with nursing boards, and I'd been licensed in California, Utah, Oregon, and Nevada with CareFlight and the other EMS programs I was working with.
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And Nevada was the easiest one to get my license renewed, so I did that and then took a job down in Hawthorne, Nevada, at little Mount Grant Hospital.
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Little 10-bed hospital with a two-bed emergency room, and went down there and started working in that emergency room for the next seven years.
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And met my soon-to-be wife, and we moved to Dayton, and I needed a job that, and Hawthorne had been in the Nevada retirement system, the Purr retirement system, so I needed a job that was still in the Purr system.
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And the state prison was in Purrise, and it was a 15-20-minute drive from home.
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I thought this would be just perfect.
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So I applied and got a job and started working at the old Nevada State Prison.
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Worked there until they closed, I think it was April of 2012.
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2012, 2012.
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And then I got transferred over to the clinic at NNCC Northern Nevada Correction Center, which is where I got to meet you.
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And that's Yeah, that would have been 2012.
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So I left in about 2016 or 17.
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So we knew each other for two years.
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Two years, and then you left.
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I left.
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I did two years at in NCC and then transferred up to NAMS, Northern Nevada Adult Mental Health Services and Sparks.
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I did one full year there, which gave me 10, a little over 10 years with PERS, and I hit 60.
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So I retired out of PERS, and then I went up and worked at the Indian Reservation in Oahe and did two years up at the reservation at the little medical clinic up there.
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I made a deal with them where I took my little motor home up there.
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The reservation owns a little campground on one of the reservoirs right by the medical clinic.
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So I'd park my RV and commute to work, and I'd do three weeks on, two weeks off, and I did that for two years.
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So Forrest, I would say there are a fair amount of people who, when they enter the prison as staff, the majority of them are many times doing what you're doing.
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They want a job that covers them with insurance, covers them with public employment, a retirement system.
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And I think there are people who never really envisioned, hey, I want to work in prisons, right?
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I think that's would be a rare type of individual.
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I don't think most people understand what it's like working in a prison compared to outside civilian life.
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It's as an RN coming from county emergency rooms, which are like the bar scene from Star Wars, is chaos, it's controlled chaos.
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It's you have to be very quick on your feet.
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You got to be three steps ahead of everybody, you have to make sense out of chaos.
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The prison system is so regimented and controlled in many ways is way safer than civilian medical jobs.
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They don't understand that.
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No, there there are always potential incidents, but there are far more when it's the wild west in emergency rooms where there isn't protection.
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Trevor Burrus, Jr.
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The number of mostly nurses nationwide that are assaulted by patients numbers in the tens of thousands per year nationwide, where nurses are being killed.
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But it's way more dangerous in the civilian world working in emergency medicine than it is in a prison system.
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I think also there's a fair amount of people who feel that, at least when I started, people did not want to work in a prison environment.
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And this is, of course, in the 1980s, but that had to do with the fact that they paid very low in those days, and then they realized as more lawsuits occurred for not giving medical care, salaries went up.
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And also then individuals in the medical world, predominantly nurses, who wanted more stability in their job instead of being yanked all over for different shifts all the time.
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And they wanted also the PERS system.
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When you entered the prison, did you go through any in-service training?
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I, if I recall, and this has been what almost 15 years ago now.
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We had one or two, but it wasn't strictly for medical staff.
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This was for new corrections hires at Stewart School that went over prison safety, rules and regulations, how not to get compromised by inmates.
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But it was a generic class for all new employees coming into the prison system.
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But I as I recall there was nothing specific for the nursing staff.
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Yeah, I found that didn't occur either.
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I was on the front line with no one to tell me anything.
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And and that was I always felt inappropriate if you're thrown into a place and given no suggestion of what you're really supposed to do or not do.
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Especially as a professional.
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And I still remember where they jumped on me and said you have to write the drugs for the executions.
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And I refused.
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I'm interested in your thoughts about the prison and executions, because nurses are many times tasked with putting that IV in.
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And that's your responsibility.
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What would you think if someone said that to you?
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Like they pulled you and said, Hey, you got to put the IV in for an execution, what would you do?
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You can't.
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You can't.
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We take the same oath within a few minor differences, the same oath that you do, on do no harm.
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And you can't do that.
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And I've refused orders before for other medical procedures that I said we can't for law enforcement that we're trying to get like I was ordered one time to catheterize somebody to get a sample of mail.
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And he I said, I'm not doing that.
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Well, you have to.
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I said, go ahead and fire me, I'm not going to do it.
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But as an execution, you cannot force someone to violate that oath.
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And plus, as morally, it's something I would never do.
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Yeah, I still remember I talked with some wardens because they were in a position where this is their responsibility to coordinate an execution because they're mandated you're the warden or the prison director.
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That's your responsibility.
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And I remember one of the wardens, and I asked him because I said no, and no nurse wanted to do it.
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I said, Who's going to put in an IV anyway?
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And he said, I'm going to put it in.
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I was a med tech in Vietnam.
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Like, and that and that's not the main moral issue there, but as far as logistics, that lack of IV access is what makes lethal injection just go all wrong.
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I mean it's just it's a disaster if you don't have a patent IV.
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Aaron Powell That subject is always dicey for people.
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I think in the prison system, there's about half the states in the country that still have the death penalty.
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And I was contacted when they were talking about the drug companies don't want to use the drugs and they want to sue the state.
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And I've been asked, isn't it much better if we just go back to firing squads?
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Not thinking, this is what are we, the wild west.
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This is beyond what I get my mind wrapped around.
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But that's the thing.
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Well, that's like we had an earlier discussion.
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It's when I was a deputy, my last few years of that profession, I worked in courts.
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I was a bailiff and then a supervisor up in the courthouse for security.
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So being involved in pretty much every single case that involved inmates and death penalty cases and serious prison time cases, you really learn quickly that truth and justice and what's right really don't have much influence in how court proceedings go.
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And a lot of guilty people walk away free, and there's a lot of innocent or because of situations beyond their control, people they get punished for things that really should be taken into consideration that aren't.
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And a lot of unfortunate poor people end up on death row, and a lot of affluent people do not.
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And a lot of that innocence project and DNA testing has really shown over the years now just how many innocent, truly innocent people have been put to death, which is just an aberration.
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And the thing is, too, you want a punishment for somebody.
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Life in prison is probably a way worse punishment than being put to death.
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And if they make a mistake, maybe someone can help you find out.
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Innocent.
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In fact, it's a little story here.
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When I started at NSP, this old state prison, I'd been there for two weeks.
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And I don't know if I can use prisoner names or not.
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Just do their initials, I think.
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I was the morning diabetics were coming in and I was checking their blood sugars and giving them their insulin.
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And this great big giant guy comes walking into the clinic at Nevada State Prison.
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And he looks at me, looks down at me, because I'm six feet tall and he towered over me.
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And he looks at me in this big deep voice and he goes, Are you from Sonoma County?
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And I go, Yeah.
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And he looks at me and he goes, You arrested me.
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And I go, What?
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He goes, Yeah, you arrested me down in Petaluma.
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I said, Really?
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I said, What happened?
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He says, I'm I don't really remember.
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He said, The only thing I do, I woke up in the jail cell and I had bruises all over.
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I go, Oh boy, and he's huge.
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And I go, Do we have a problem with that?
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And he goes, Well, no.
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I says, I was a real asshole when I was back then when I was drinking, and he says, I deserved it, I'm sure.
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I said, So are we good?
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He goes, Oh yeah.
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He says, I can't tell you how good it is to see somebody from home.
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But he was a former death row inmate.
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Oh, wow.
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He was a chef, worked at Circus Circus, was staying in a room at Circus Circus with the roommate.
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He came home from the shift and found out that his drunk roommate had taken his high-dollar chef knives and had been carving on something.
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They got in a fight and he ended up stabbing his roommate.
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And I'm sure you know who it is.
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And he ended up on death row for that case.
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I guess it was just a horrible I guess it was a horrific scene.
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I mean, but he was he wasn't some evil sociopathic guy.
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He was just some big, dumb knee-jerk drunk that overreacted, did something spur of the moment, not planned, not real good as far as control of emotions.
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And he came off a death pro when they overturned, was it the ninth?
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Yeah, I think it would I think it was around 76 or so when they started overturning it.
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Yeah, Rose in the Ninth Circuit over in San Francisco overturned all those death penalties.
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He was one of those.
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But he he was just a big lug.
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Yeah, the U.S.
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Supreme Court overturned it, but then shortly the states went back to it.
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Yeah.
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One of those type things.
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That whole death row thing is fascinating because I was asked to do it one of those executions, and the person who they wanted to execute and did was Buddy Thompson.
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But he he had written almost quite a few pages the day or two before he was executed.
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And the chaplain gave me those pages later.
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And I didn't read them for years because I don't know, that just uh was hard for me because I was going through my own issues with trying to survive in prison.
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And then later, when I read it, it wasn't that he said I'm innocent.
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He basically was a call out to children to follow your parents, listen to the police, do well with your teachers, and don't go down the path I did.
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That's really what his memoir was.
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And a lot of them, too.
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You look at when the crimes are committed and how old they are.
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Another one is actually one of my favorite inmates that I ended up spending a lot of time talking with in the clinic was one of our workers who had been involved in a he shot a Reno cop.
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Oh, wow.
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Correct cancer here a few years ago.
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Yeah.
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He grew up.
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He was not the same, he went from this wild, violent, out of control jerk as as a younger man.
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All of a sudden a switch got thrown, got stopped for a traffic violation, and took off, went to his house, barricaded, and then got in the shoot.
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He was shooting back, and he shot a Reno cop in the chest that killed the officer.
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And I somehow he avoided the death penalty, but he was a lifer.
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But that man that I used to talk to was not the same guy that 20 years earlier had been involved in that shooting.
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He just he matured, and Wilson was a middle-aged man that was full of regret.
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We talked about it at death, and it was just I would do anything, I would trade my life.
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Who knows?
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But he seemed sincere in his remorse.
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And but he was not some wild 20-year-old anymore.
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Yeah, I've got a question for you.
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There were four teenagers who went to a drug deal.
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They did not know that this individual was an undercover cop.
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They started fighting with this guy, they had knives on them, and he died.
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I know in court systems, if a cop dies, that person's not getting out of prison or death penalty.
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Yeah.
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Now, if you have an 18-year-old who's tagging along and he doesn't know that, and he sees his other buddies fighting this guy, and he's trying to help his friends, and who knows which knife actually did put the guy in.
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He's been in prison 46 years.
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A model inmate.
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Do you think he deserves a second chance?
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Everybody deserves a second chance, but it's hard to say if you're gonna get hoodwinked or but that's the risk you take.
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Yes.
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You have no guarantee that you're getting played or hoodwinked or not, or if it's legitimate, but everybody deserves a second chance.
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And you need to look at the big picture.
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And and also you need to really look at the prosecutors.
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The prosecution the motivation of the prosecutors, is it stats, or is it is this we're making or seeing the justice is done.
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And there's no black and white.
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I learned that as a up in the court system working as a bailiff, there's no such thing as black and white.
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There's shades of gray to everything.
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And you really have to be careful and look at think like an attorney, probably, and look at all sides and be able to put yourself in other people's points.
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There's his version, their version.
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You figure the truth is somewhere in the middle.
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That's the problem too.
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Speaking as a former law enforcement officer, not all cops are good guys wearing white hats.
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Yeah.
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That I don't mean that's a pretty broad brush, but I also at the same time it's I don't want to disparage the entire profession, but there's guys that do things right and guys and gals that don't do things right.
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Of course.
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:08.319
You really have to be careful on the Trevor Burrus, yeah.
00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:19.279
But I figured since you were in that police world, I always think is there, I don't know, there's an emotionality over the death of a police officer.
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:33.519
You got a sentinel event where there's someone's been hurt very bad or hurt killed, that you always got to have someone besides your own people do the investigation on what happened because you have to be able to step back and avoid that.
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:34.000
Yeah.
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:37.920
And if you can't do that, your investigation is going to be tainted.
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:45.680
Working in the infirmary, did you ever feel at risk dealing with any of the inmates?
00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:46.480
No, never.
00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:47.599
Right.
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.119
I was, believe me, I don't have rose-colored glasses.
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:58.400
There were plenty of people in there that were just dangerous jerks that I wouldn't turn my back on because I don't trust them.
00:21:58.559 --> 00:21:59.599
Or they wouldn't think twice.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.119
To hurt you.
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:09.839
But as as a rule, most of the inmates there are kinda they put themselves there, but they also weren't still a world they have to live in.
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:19.680
So they were kind of I think for vast majority of my life gave them the short end of the stick and they just are kind of along for the ride.
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:26.240
But as far as feeling endangered, I had enough years as a cop to do inmates or inmates.
00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:29.759
But actually you got security, they're sober.
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.039
I mean, it's a lot safer than a civilian emergency room.
00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:35.200
Yeah, that that's for sure.
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:41.119
And with the nursing staff, there's always a director of nursing.
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:44.960
Did you ever consider being a director of nursing?
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:45.599
No.
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:53.440
I went and interviewed for a supervisor spot out in Ely, which I was strictly for boosted up.
00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:56.000
It would have been a three-year position out there.
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:59.200
And that was strictly for bumping up the retirement a bit.
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:03.119
But I was just planning I would both airplanes an hour and a half flight from my house.
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.680
We got an airport where we live.
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.240
But ended up not taking it.
00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:16.079
But no, I was coasting.
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.920
I lived through a number of different directors of nursing.
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:31.920
What do you think they could have done that would have improved the nursing world or the outcomes of the patients?
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:34.000
What do you think they could have improved on?
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:54.960
I think the main thing would have been the supervisors in the actual clinic and then the infirmary themselves writing realistic evaluations on the employees on who were competent, who were not competent, who was working, who was not working, and work on improving the the professional level of the staff.
00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:55.759
Okay.
00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:58.079
A lot of people worked.
00:23:58.160 --> 00:23:59.920
Some people worked a lot harder than others.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:01.279
Yes, I would say that.
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.359
Yeah, and it was there's a bunch of us I think that worked very hard.
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:11.440
I would be embarrassed if someone said, Oh, you don't give good care, you don't take care of your patients, you don't know what you're doing.
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.440
I would want to crawl in a hole and die.
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:13.839
Yeah.
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:17.599
But there was a few co-workers that didn't care.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.519
That that always bothered me.
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:22.079
That that bothered me as well.
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:38.559
But since I wasn't their director, if I would say something that didn't seem to pull over well, and then I learned we had nurses that my other nurses would say say, ah, that one never breaks suction.
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:38.880
No.
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:43.599
I.e., doesn't ever really get off the chair to actually do something.
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:47.039
Then this gets to your earlier question about working in a prison.
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.359
It's actually a really cushy job as a for a medical staff.
00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:54.960
You don't see a large number of patients like you do in the civilian world.
00:24:55.279 --> 00:25:00.240
And it's well controlled, but the pay is good, the benefits are good, the hours are good.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:05.119
You for the most part you've got staff in the real world now.
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:25.440
It's the nursing staff are so understaffed and overwhelmed with paperwork and electronic charting and doing other professions work because it's cheaper to have a nurse do it than it is a phlebotomist or a respiratory tech or an x-ray tech or an EKG tech.
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:26.880
Oh let the nurse do it.
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:39.440
On top of your other so if you're an emergency room nurse nowadays, you'll have four, five, six patients plus some ICU patients that there's no room in the ICU, so you've got them in a hallway that you're responsible for with no help.
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:41.119
It's just you're overwhelmed.
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:44.559
Oh, that was a disaster.
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:44.799
Yeah.
00:25:45.119 --> 00:26:00.240
But prison nursing is actually well, like the best nursing jobs out there is kind of a hidden uh but it's it's it's a piece of cake compared to the civilian world, and it's nobody knows about it.
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:07.680
Yeah, and for me, I was thrown into the prison to do a four-year commitment for the federal government.
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:08.720
For your student loans.
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:11.920
Yeah, for the student loans, National Health Corps loans.
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:26.000
And what I found is that I was so glad that I got thrown into the prison because I had that ability to do medicine without having to worry about making money off patients.
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:27.039
Exactly.
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:39.279
And that is a big one because I had the ability to examine and talk with a patient if I needed two minutes or two hours.
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:46.880
I didn't have to worry about coding and figuring out how to get money or fight with insurance companies.
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:58.240
And since I had the infirmary in the back, the medical beds, if I felt someone needed to be admitted, I just admitted it.
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:05.359
And then when they were well, they could go, or if they weren't well, I didn't have to fight with insurance companies or anything like that.
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:09.599
So that that is definitely worthwhile.
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:22.799
I think for me, one of the difficulties was sometimes I would come up against custody, where their issues didn't always fit with mine.
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:25.359
Oh, and that's that's a battle.
00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:31.839
Yeah, that's a constant battle because I might say, this guy needs to go to the ER.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.480
And they would say, We don't have enough staff.
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:36.000
Can't he just wait till the morning?
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:39.119
I'm like, he might not be alive in the morning.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:44.240
And they said, and they wanted me to say, okay, we can wait.
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.400
And it's like, no, if you're gonna do that, that's on you.
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:51.279
But I think this guy needs to go.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:54.319
That's a multi-pronged problem, too.
00:27:54.400 --> 00:28:07.599
You've got medical versus security, and you've also got attitude, medical attitude versus the corrections attitude, which corrections officers and medical staff probably look at the completely differently.
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:07.920
Yes.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:08.480
Yeah.
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:11.119
Every inmate is a serial killer and gonna kill.
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:20.559
He's gotta go.
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:21.279
He's gotta go.
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:23.599
Because we don't have the facility to take care of that.
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:25.359
So it's it's a battle.
00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:33.920
Yes, for everybody that has different viewpoints in different training and different agendas.
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:53.279
One of the things I found which was unfortunate, is some of the medical staff, they had issues with inmates who had particular crimes versus in the outside world, if people come into an ER, you don't know.
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:55.200
You don't know what they did or what they did.
00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:55.839
Well, you might.
00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:57.759
You might, but mostly not.
00:28:58.720 --> 00:28:59.200
Mostly not.
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:00.160
Mostly not.
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:14.640
And I know that I had some nurses who, if the guy was a pedophile, I don't know, they had their own issues over that, and they just didn't want to give the care to the person.
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:19.920
But that gets back to like with the death penalty, that gets back to your oath.
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:20.400
Yeah.
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:22.000
What is your profession?
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:27.839
And I don't think anywhere in that oath that says do no harm except for this group of people.
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:29.839
Yeah, this that I didn't read that in there when I did it.
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:34.160
No, and that's why I always liked your voice, because you didn't have that.
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:34.799
No.
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:37.759
But we did have some nurses that did have that.
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:38.400
No.
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:40.400
That doesn't mean that I'm thinking it.
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:41.440
I'm not thinking it.
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:46.319
I as a cop, like Richard Allen Davis, he kidnapped little Polly class.
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:48.160
I dealt with him, Sonoma County.
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:48.480
Yeah.
00:29:48.640 --> 00:30:12.160
And there were days when I was a deputy and I was I'd bring him in and on a court, that was my job, and park him at the defense table, that I would sit there and fantasize and think to myself, Forrest, if you had a terminal illness and only a few months to live, I would just unsnap my holster, a pistol, and put it up against his head and shoot him because it would do the world a favor.
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:20.960
Because this man is a monster, child killing monster, and there is no redeeming anything about this man and a couple of others.
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:24.240
But does it mean that I did that?
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:36.880
Or that was just something that went through my head because this guy was just he was just this loathsome, defective, miswired brain that served no purpose on this planet.
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:42.559
But I was that that was a thought, but that was nothing else.
00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:47.680
But it didn't mean that I mistreated him or it was everything I dealt with him was strictly professional.
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:56.720
Yeah, I think some people have more of the judgment gene and and I have more of the curiosity gene.
00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:01.119
Like, why do they do what they do?
00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:07.920
Because I I feel that if you don't know that, then how do you ever try to improve situations?
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:10.240
To me, I look like a computer.
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:19.599
People like Richard Allen Davis, who's I had the privilege taken to San Quentin with my coworkers and we dropped him off.
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:21.279
His hardware is bad.
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:25.519
There's no amount of software you can put into that computer system to correct it.
00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:27.440
His hardware is broken.
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:35.279
And other people have their hardware is fine, but their software is because the way they grow up in poverty or mistreated or something.
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:38.319
Yeah, those are correctable issues.
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:46.000
You have some, the the sociopaths, the serial kill, I dealt with a lot of serial kills of kind of you don't fix those people.
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:53.039
And all you can do to keep people safe is just get them locked up in where they can't hurt anybody.
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:53.599
Yeah.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:56.079
Yeah, you're not gonna fix that.
00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:05.920
But a lot of other problems, show them what they're doing wrong, get them some education, and get them where they can do some self-reflecting and go, oh boy, that's if I did really.
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:10.480
Yeah, that's a great analogy, hardware versus software.
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:10.799
Yeah.
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:14.240
Unless you could truly figure out how to take out the hardware.
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:14.640
Yeah.
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:18.880
And right now we Actually I wouldn't say sometimes you do know.
00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:29.119
I think the most classic case was this guy in Texas many years ago who went up the tower and shot a bunch of people, and he had a tumor on the amygdala.
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:29.440
Yeah.
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:38.559
And so if that tumor wasn't there, they could come off, and then they don't have that the fear and the threat and the kill and everything else.
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:51.119
There have been appellate cases where people have been con crimes like that, found a tumor, taken it out, all of a sudden that that tumor's gone and their behavior is completely different.
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:56.319
Now you've got a person in prison for life that's not the same person that committed the crime.
00:32:56.720 --> 00:33:01.279
Yeah, all those things are that gets back to there's no black and white.
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:03.119
What do you do with that person?
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:09.759
But to me, that's where I think the hardware if you could fix the hardware, if you actually knew how to fix it.
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:12.000
It's like treating schizophrenic.
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:27.119
And that's why I think because I came from more of that medical side, I just thought of things medically versus you're bad, you're good.
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:27.920
You have to.
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:28.799
And that sort of thing.
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:47.599
Do you remember anything for yourself which you thought was ungodly funny or just bizarre?
00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:56.960
Well, I there were some moments, humorous and sad, and others.
00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:59.039
It's was Do you remember?
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:10.719
We had one of the guys at the ranch, one of the horse guys, working a horse first thing in the morning, got bucked or didn't get bucked off, he got run up against the and squished his arm.
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:12.400
Squished his thigh.
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:13.119
Oh, the thigh.
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:13.920
Oh, I remember that.
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:16.719
He spent the whole day working horses.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:25.119
At the end of the day, came up, walked into the clinic, yeah, said, Yeah, I banged my leg, my thigh hurts, and he had a big hematoma on his thigh.
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:26.000
Yeah.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.519
And I sat him down and waited till you had a spot available.
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:39.360
And as he started, we're ready to see him, and I was walking him across the room, and there was a loud snap sound, and he collapsed his femur fractured.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:42.639
And then it's going, and that was how tough those guys are.
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:42.960
Yeah.
00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:48.000
And he was in for his DUI, most of those guys were all DUI kind of guys.
00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:51.519
But stoic, tough, hard working.
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:59.920
Yeah, I when they started with the Mustang program, and I heard, well, they're going to be gentling the horses.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:03.360
My first thought was like, oh no, we'll get more injuries.
00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:11.519
But what I found out is these guys who were in that program, they would hide injuries from me.
00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:12.159
Oh, yeah.
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:12.400
Yeah.
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:23.280
And then other guys who were doing jobs they didn't like, they were constantly complaining and whining about small things.
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:23.840
Right.
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:35.360
So it it really shows that if you can figure out what job or service that an inmate can do that they actually enjoy, but they won't complain so much.
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:36.320
But think about it.
00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:48.000
A lot of these guys have come from these horrific horror story families growing up with abuse, but they have real problems making connections, emotional connections.
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:58.960
And you get them where they have to work with those horses, where all of a sudden it's, oh, here's something I can connect with and treat gentle and put time into.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:02.079
And look at look how my effort is being paid off.
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:11.280
Went to a horse auction down to prison here a while ago with a friend of ours that ended up buying one of the one of the horses, and she does all the horse rescue.
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:18.159
And it was amazing the effort and the connection these guys have with those Mustangs.
00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:20.000
What a great program that is.
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:21.039
It's great.
00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:31.039
And when I retired, and I was asked to help out on the Mustang movie that was filmed at Nevada State Prison.
00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:38.719
And I remember that four of the inmates I knew were actually in that film.
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:53.599
And they were all not only really happy to be in the film, but they had become either a horse trainer or horse furrier with the hooves and and were in that world.
00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:57.519
And they really enjoyed doing what they did.
00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:06.559
One of them I still remember was he was half Yaki and half Apache, so he really fit in the movie.
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:08.960
And he was an excellent horseman.
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:11.679
Yeah, that was such a wonderful program.
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:17.280
And with the dog program, since you were at NSP, you were involved, the dog program.
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:32.480
And I know for myself, in the days before the dog program during summers, I would always have a good jaw fracture or two on the Nevada State prison yard.
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:37.519
After the dogs came in, I didn't have one jaw fracture.
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.000
They stopped, they didn't fight as much.
00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:43.280
Everybody wanted to be around the dogs.
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:45.039
And they wanted to keep it.
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:54.320
And they picked the guys who had been there many years, so they had sort of their own reputation and gravitas or whatever it was.
00:37:54.480 --> 00:38:02.000
And they basically made sure we're not doing nonsense and fighting each other.
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:06.079
At least not let custody know about this because we want to keep the dogs.
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:08.400
Yeah, but it's gets back to it.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:21.519
There's something you can have a connection with, and you're in prison, but you still get to take care of a dog and have a companionship and let your cellmates play with the dog, pet the dog, and connect with it too.
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:23.599
And that's that's that's a victory.
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:42.400
Yeah, when they had when they lost one of the Nevada's NSP doctors, when they didn't have anybody, then myself and my other doctor at Northern Nevada Correctional Center, we would once a week come over to sign charts and see somebody that would really had to be seen.
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:54.559
And I definitely told the custody officer, look, if I come over here at lunchtime, I want one of the inmates to bring in a dog so I could play with the dog.
00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:55.119
Yeah.
00:38:55.760 --> 00:39:04.079
And it was so funny because the custody officer would have these little teeny little dog biscuits that were only an inch long that I could give the doggy.
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:06.639
And then the inmate would be like, Dr.
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:09.039
Kidd, don't you want to adopt him?
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:10.239
He needs to be adopted.
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:12.159
Oh my God, it was adorable.
00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:14.320
That was really adorable.
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:23.840
And one of the things I had with some of the nurses is they were compromised by inmates.
00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:29.440
Did you have any of that interactions or knew nurses who were compromised?
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:39.599
I knew one of them that came and went that she either got compromised at NNCC or she also worked up at Washoe County jail.
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:50.480
And I don't know if it was here with us or up at the jail that she ended up in a situation, sexual situation with an inmate, which is just ungodly stupid.
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:54.960
But she's the only I heard the stories from people in the past.
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:58.159
I think there was one nurse there that smuggled in a cell phone.
00:39:58.559 --> 00:39:59.679
She was a dental tech.
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:10.719
She gave the phone to one of the dental technicians who was an inmate helping with the dentures, and he coordinated an escape.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:12.960
Yeah, but somebody died in that, if I remember.
00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:14.559
Not that one.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:19.119
He got out and he went to Las Vegas and did bad things.
00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:24.639
But that's that also happens with the correction staff.
00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:29.440
When I was a deputy, I was also our sheriff's department pilot.
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:31.599
I was one of the pilots for the department.
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:43.119
And I remember flying detectives around different state prisons around California to interview female inmates who had been involved with corrections officers back up in Belmont County.
00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:55.199
And our detectives would interview, because they were charging the corrections officers with assault under color of authority and in private and department violations along with criminal violations for having sex with the female inmates.
00:40:55.519 --> 00:41:02.639
If you decided to write a book about your time as a prison nurse, what would the title be?
00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:12.960
Something about Northern Nevada Convalescent Center.
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:18.320
Something about these old inmates that were happy to be there.
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:20.320
Autumn was their retirement plan.
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:23.920
Probably be something humorous about just how these guys like being there.
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:43.760
I think the greatest thing is that if you've got old guys in prison who have been there 30 or 40 years, and they don't have any family on the outside or anybody who really wants them in the outside world, the worst thing possible in their brain is like I don't want to be dumped out on the street with nothing.
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:45.519
Oh and that's terrifying.
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:51.840
I had conversations where the plan was, as soon as I get out, they didn't like state prison.
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:53.280
They like federal prison.
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:54.000
Okay, yeah.
00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:58.639
And I was talking to one old guy one day, and he goes, Yeah, so they're kicking me out of here.
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:00.400
He says, This place really sucks.
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:01.760
You guys just aren't real nice.
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:07.840
He says, I'm gonna I'm gonna commit a crime and cross state lines real quick so I can go to a federal prison.
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:09.840
He said, They're like family there.
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:10.320
Yeah.
00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:12.800
The food's good and they really treat you well.
00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:15.119
Yeah, I don't like the food here.
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:22.639
And others, it was if you don't mind the food and lack of sex, this is a really great place to retire.
00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:29.280
You got don't have to work hard, you got TV, you got a nice yard to walk around, and they said, This is really a nice place.
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:34.000
And you just go on, I know your sights a little higher, buddy.
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:38.719
But at that point, when they're 67 years old, you know what do you they're stuck there.
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:45.760
I remember when one of the psychologists, Mary Harrison, started the True Grit program.
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:49.119
It was really a miracle for the medical department.
00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:50.320
They took care of each other.
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:54.880
Also, because we had that ability to staff a nurse there, yeah.
00:42:55.119 --> 00:43:02.800
These guys didn't have to walk long distances in winter storms waiting for a long time to get a pill.
00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:13.199
They couldn't get their wheelchairs fast enough through the snow to get to the culinary and then wolf down food when they don't have any teeth.
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:15.039
It was always a problem.
00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:20.719
So that was a godsend, really, to have a geriatric unit.
00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:34.000
And when I started the prison, we had very few old guys, but Northern Nevada Correctional Center, as you said, a lot of these old guys with medical problems were just shipped to us.
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:38.079
So we had men who had been in prison for so many years.
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:44.880
They were 60s, 70s, 80s, and just really and then get demented and not know where they were.
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:48.880
Yes, they're never couldn't find where where they were going, so they needed to stay in a place.
00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:50.320
Yeah, they're never gonna leave.
00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:53.360
You're you got no place to send them to.
00:43:53.599 --> 00:43:53.920
No.
00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:55.920
No, they're there for the duration.
00:43:56.239 --> 00:44:02.159
And that's why sometimes you have to think about how long does one really stay in a prison?
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:06.960
Because you stay too long, you're not gonna be able to function in society.
00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:16.159
Think about it, and I do as is what our economy and things get rougher and rougher for people.
00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:24.320
If you got dumped out on the street with, say, 50 bucks cash right now with the clothes you're wearing on your back, how would you survive?
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:25.280
You wouldn't.
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:26.400
What would you do?
00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:35.840
Especially if you had no education, no coping skills, broken hardware, yeah, or software in your little computer, how would you survive?
00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:36.639
You wouldn't.
00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:39.519
Other than crime is the easiest solution.
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:39.920
Yeah.
00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:45.360
And then get back into the system where you know it and you function in it, and they take care of you.
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:46.400
I agree.
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:47.039
Yes.
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:48.719
Thank you very much, Forrest.
00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:49.519
You're welcome.
00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:50.559
Thank you for having me.
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:53.199
Thank you for listening to Prison Unlocked.
00:44:53.360 --> 00:45:03.920
Our goal is simple to help the outside world better understand the people, challenges, realities, and human stories that exist behind prison walls.
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:08.960
Join us every week for more rural conversations from both sides of the wall.
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:24.239
To listen to additional episodes, learn more about the podcast, explore resources, or purchase my book, Thirty Years Behind Bars, Trials of a Prison Doctor, and visit PrisonUcked.com.
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:44.239
You'll also find links to organizations making a difference beyond the podcast, including Reconnect 180, which supports a successful reentry after incarceration, and the Nevada State Prison Historical Society, dedicated to preserving an important part of Nevada's history.
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:45.199
I'm Dr.
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:46.239
Karen Giddon.
00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:49.360
Until next time, thank you for listening.