Teaching nuclear physics using data rather than models, recovering helium from party balloons

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Hello and welcome to the physics world weekly
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podcast.
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I'm Hamish Johnston,
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Coming up in this episode, I'm in conversation
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with Dale Keeping, who is helium recovery manager
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at the Uk's Isis,
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Neutron and
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Source.
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He explains how Helium is used at the
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facility,
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where the gas comes from.
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And how he and his colleagues manage this
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non renewable resource.
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Dale also chats about an outreach initiative. That
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involves collecting used party balloons so that the
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helium they contain can be reused at Isis.
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Blood first, physics world's mat team
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Is in
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conversation with David Jenkins.
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Who has written a series of textbooks
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that take a different approach to teaching nuclear
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physics.
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Focusing first on how the data lead to
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physical models,
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rather than beginning with models and theories.
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Hello, and I'm delighted to be joined by
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David Jenkins, a nuclear physicist at University of
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York. Welcome to the podcast, David. Thank you.
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I'm happy to be you. Now remember, we
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let years ago at an Institute of Physics
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awards dinner, and I remember you wrote a
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feature for us about nuclear physics and its
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role on life on Earth.
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But since then you've written a couple of
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ebooks for Io about nuclear physics, and it's
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given you some insights into how we should
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teach. The subject
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to students.
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But before we come to that, I thought
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we'd just start with some the basics.
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So what what are the are the big
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questions in nuclear physics right now for people
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who haven't been keeping an eye on things?
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Well, III think there's many. I mean, there's
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lots of very technical.
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Issues. But I think the issues are are
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most interesting,
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to to the wider public. Or about the
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origin of the chemical elements
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And
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nuclear physics is is really
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underpins
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what elements are produced and the import abundant
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is in our in our universe, and that's
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got very exciting
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in the last few years because,
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from the discovery of gravitational waves, and then
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this light being emitted when when these objects
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are colliding id, it's rein,
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the whole field of nuclear physics is a
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huge number of questions now about.
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The origin of the elements.
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And that that kinda of tall with your
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own particular research interests that I think. Is
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that right in saying that? Yeah. So I've
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I've I've worked a lot on, they say
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everything that's called nuclear astro physics that relates
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to the origin of the elements, particularly at
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the moment. I've been working on
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fusion
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in massive stars, what what what what's going
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on in in stars that are 8 to
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20 times more massive than our son.
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But I'm also equally interested in just the
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pure aspects of nuclear structure
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and the properties of the atomic nucleus.
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So I mean, looking back to my undergraduate
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days, I actually did a degree in chemical
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physics. I don't think there was much nuclear
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physics on the syllabus, but what typically do
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you physics students that undergraduate level learn about
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nuclear physics. How much
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is there on the curriculum?
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There can be quite quite a lot. I
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mean, it
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in our university
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here at York.
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There's quite there's quite a bit on on
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the curriculum in there even for the... For
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the core program, and the part of the
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physics. I you can take options and study,
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even in into your third or 4 year
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of your degree. But at least in the,
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second year of the degree, there's a there's
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a lot of,
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sang to deal with nuclear physics
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probably as much as we discuss particle called
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Physics exceptionally. Yeah but that might be because
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we've got a lot of near nuclear physicists
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year.
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And and lots not so many particles ones.
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So, I thought we've turned to the new
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books that you've been writing. You wanna say
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a little bit about them. Yes. So this
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is working with Io publishing
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for their physics books series.
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We proposed a a series of books on
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nuclear structure
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and nuclear spectroscopy,
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and And
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that's been a very, very interesting
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evolution actually because of also because of events
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because we we signed up to
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I'm gonna deliver some of these books just
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before the Covid
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struck. And then when the Covid arrived,
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it we we suddenly had huge amounts of
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time to play with to and actually, in
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a way it was very therapeutic
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because we're able to spend all this time
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thinking about writing,
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and thinking about how to approach writing the
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books.
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And, of course,
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the Covid also drew it into another perspective
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because libraries were closed, You know, you couldn't
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go and get a physical book.
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You you weren't sure perhaps of that time.
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You you'd go to a library ever again.
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And so he really opened up the possibilities
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of what. Could be done with electronic,
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major and electronic rocks for. Because of course
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these are, ebooks published fines to your physics,
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publishing
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so, I mean, who who who would they
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be aimed at? Are they mostly aimed at
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undergraduate or post grad students?
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Yeah. I think they would probably be aimed
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at. To the the final year undergraduate students,
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but mostly,
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postgraduate students doing ph d or or masters
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in in in nuclear physics.
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So that's the sort of target audience
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that we have
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And and you... You told me you've kind
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of taken a different approach to other nuclear
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physics textbook. I mean, what's?
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What approach have you taken and how how
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does it differ? Would you say? Yeah. I
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think this is quite interesting because as I
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said, we we spent quite a bit of
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time thinking about how to approach. This. So
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I I work with my my main collaborator
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on these books. Is called John Wood, and
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he's a retired professor at Georgia
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tech in in the Us and he has,
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you know, an enormous number of years of
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experience of teaching, and I I've talked for
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a lot of years now,
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And, of course, you you start getting interested
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in
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in Pe.
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How how to teach
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how how to convey
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ideas to students,
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how how to challenge them how to make
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them involved and interested
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in in learning and
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And as I say, that that that led
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us into thinking about how to use books
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and so on. So I mean, historically, if
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you go back and look at nuclear physics
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text books.
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They tend to start with models,
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and they often tend to start in a
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rather kind of
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should 1 say biblical kind of way like
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a biblical authority, you know, here was the
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the model of of the shell model
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which is historical model going back to the
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the, sort of early 19 fifties.
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And
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there's nothing wrong with these models, but
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it it it's kind of
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so us of very old fashioned way of
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of of teaching the subject,
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and that it can be dry
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and boring.
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And and sometimes these models
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have become less useful as people have got
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more data and looked at these models. They
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found that there's... Problems with these models, and
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that the the the data doesn't really fit
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the models.
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And then sometimes people have come along and
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added a few more parameters of models and
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know because you know from your your involvement
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science, you can keep adding parameters to models
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and fit anything, but then it cease to
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be,
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physics.
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So we're trying to turn the whole thing
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around and start with data
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in our approach rather than,
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with models
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So when you say data, what you mean
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data that people have got from physics experiments?
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And what do you present real data or
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you sort of look at the kind of
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typical data that 1 would get?
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Yes. So so there's there's an enormous,
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comp,
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and databases of data.
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Out there nuclear data. So that's all sorts
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of properties of nuclei light. Let's take, for
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example, their gross properties. So let the the
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massive nuclei.
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Their radius.
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These are gross properties that people have measured.
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We also have excited states of nuclei.
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The nucleus is a quantum system, so it
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has quantized the excited states of specific,
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energy. There are also
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transitions between
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nuclear excited states.
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And because of the energy regime that it's
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in, those transitions media by gamma rays, which
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are very high energy,
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form of
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electromagnetic
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radiation light.
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So we have all of those databases there
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and because, of course,
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the nucleus is exploited in various ways like,
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for nuclear energy
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and for medicine and things like that, it's
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very important that people have compiled all this
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data over the years So there's a huge
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amount of data there,
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that that can be touched and then used
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more more around
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learning from.
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So do you think that makes the subject
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more accessible it becomes more real and and
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less dry as you say because people can
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see
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real date and kind of
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kind of intrigued by it and what that
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might tell us. Yes. I think that's what
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we tried to do. We tried to say,
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let's look at the data.
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And let's see if simple patterns emerge from
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the data and let's not start with traditional
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models like this shell model, which has the
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a concept that there are certain magic numbers
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of protons and neutrons
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for which the system
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has closed shells. It's called a bit like
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closed shells in a in an atom. So
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in an atom, you have the,
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you're you have chemical
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chemistry background. So we have these things noble
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gases that have no chemistry
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because they have closed shells of electrons, and
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we have certain nuclei that have closed shells
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approach tolls and neutrons and they're quite hard
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to excite. That's the the the classic
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picture of them.
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But rather site we're model, 1 can start
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looking at all this abundance of data and
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actually see naturally how
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these features emerge from looking the data.
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And then we looked at various aspects of
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nuclei. So and nucleus has typically,
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a hundred or maybe 200 protons and neutrons
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making it up. And the nucleus is fascinating
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because many aspects of it are dictated by
278
00:10:48,403 --> 00:10:50,651
the behavior of just 1 of those protons
279
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and neutrons.
280
00:10:52,405 --> 00:10:54,638
And many of the other aspects are dictated
281
00:10:54,638 --> 00:10:57,589
by those hundreds of particles all acting together,
282
00:10:57,908 --> 00:10:58,945
so called collected,
283
00:10:59,756 --> 00:11:02,720
behavior in nuclei, what 1
284
00:11:03,810 --> 00:11:06,615
way that scene is, the the nucleus can
285
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rotate and you can see patterns of rotational
286
00:11:09,322 --> 00:11:12,539
states in nuclei. As you see patterns of
287
00:11:12,598 --> 00:11:15,415
rotational states in molecules in in in chemistry,
288
00:11:15,969 --> 00:11:18,366
That's that's the analogy. And 1 can look
289
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at all this data and see these simple
290
00:11:21,002 --> 00:11:22,041
patterns emerging.
291
00:11:23,013 --> 00:11:24,997
And then we we kind of have chapters
292
00:11:24,997 --> 00:11:26,822
which ask questions, you know, how does the
293
00:11:26,822 --> 00:11:27,139
model...
294
00:11:27,854 --> 00:11:30,552
How does the data support models like rotation?
295
00:11:31,599 --> 00:11:34,087
So rather than starting with a a biblical
296
00:11:34,303 --> 00:11:36,315
authority of a model, we'll let the
297
00:11:36,769 --> 00:11:39,330
the the the data speak. If you like.
298
00:11:40,365 --> 00:11:41,263
And did you
299
00:11:41,719 --> 00:11:43,231
test this with people? Or have you had
300
00:11:43,231 --> 00:11:45,859
any feedback whether that approach is successful and
301
00:11:45,859 --> 00:11:48,105
is what people feel is the right way
302
00:11:48,105 --> 00:11:50,998
to learn. We've had some very nice feedback
303
00:11:51,216 --> 00:11:53,848
from from students and from people around the
304
00:11:53,848 --> 00:11:56,183
world. I mean, it's been interesting. I've had
305
00:11:56,894 --> 00:12:00,029
messages from many different countries, South Africa,
306
00:12:00,886 --> 00:12:01,386
Columbia,
307
00:12:02,163 --> 00:12:04,159
it's clear that people are are using these
308
00:12:04,159 --> 00:12:06,096
books all over the world, which is very
309
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pleasing.
310
00:12:09,044 --> 00:12:09,544
And
311
00:12:10,161 --> 00:12:12,237
I think it's also clear that they've engaged
312
00:12:12,237 --> 00:12:13,456
well with the material
313
00:12:14,233 --> 00:12:15,430
and understood it,
314
00:12:16,163 --> 00:12:18,548
Of course, they've often spotted mistakes, but that's
315
00:12:18,548 --> 00:12:20,535
slide that they then say, why does they
316
00:12:20,535 --> 00:12:22,681
say 82 when it should be 28?
317
00:12:23,238 --> 00:12:25,797
Somebody's type something the wrong way around. But
318
00:12:25,797 --> 00:12:26,297
they've
319
00:12:27,227 --> 00:12:29,452
they've engaged with it, and and they they've
320
00:12:29,452 --> 00:12:31,677
they've found that approach to be useful. I
321
00:12:31,677 --> 00:12:34,061
think that's the feedback, which we're getting.
322
00:12:34,875 --> 00:12:36,714
And I think be the other aspect of
323
00:12:36,714 --> 00:12:38,394
it is that the way that we present
324
00:12:38,394 --> 00:12:39,134
the thing
325
00:12:40,315 --> 00:12:42,929
is very close to research because
326
00:12:43,605 --> 00:12:45,831
we we have exercises in the book. And
327
00:12:45,831 --> 00:12:47,976
we say, well, we looked at this example
328
00:12:47,976 --> 00:12:50,361
in this particular region of the nuclear chart.
329
00:12:50,853 --> 00:12:51,752
This particular
330
00:12:52,128 --> 00:12:54,758
combination of protons and neutrons. Why not have
331
00:12:54,758 --> 00:12:56,591
a look at this region of the nuclear
332
00:12:56,591 --> 00:12:59,636
chart and see what there, go and retrieve
333
00:12:59,636 --> 00:13:01,632
the data and whatever. So we... We're setting
334
00:13:01,632 --> 00:13:03,888
these open ended exercises is that
335
00:13:04,666 --> 00:13:07,300
in a sense, actually generate research questions.
336
00:13:07,952 --> 00:13:10,341
You know, it could turn into AAA 30
337
00:13:10,341 --> 00:13:12,274
year research program to
338
00:13:12,809 --> 00:13:15,038
get the data to to answer that. But
339
00:13:15,197 --> 00:13:15,730
I think
340
00:13:16,490 --> 00:13:18,570
Again, for my experience of teaching, I think
341
00:13:18,570 --> 00:13:21,070
it's it's very useful to show students
342
00:13:22,649 --> 00:13:25,862
where the textbook ends where where research starts,
343
00:13:26,021 --> 00:13:28,168
and I think it's often very difficult for
344
00:13:28,168 --> 00:13:30,020
early career researchers to
345
00:13:30,395 --> 00:13:32,860
make that transition or make that jump ask
346
00:13:32,860 --> 00:13:33,655
those questions.
347
00:13:34,132 --> 00:13:35,428
So we're trying just
348
00:13:36,137 --> 00:13:38,153
to find a way to sort of facilitate
349
00:13:38,291 --> 00:13:39,327
that the half ounce.
350
00:13:40,524 --> 00:13:41,799
So if I was a student, you know,
351
00:13:41,959 --> 00:13:44,032
starting off my Phd into nuclear physics, we
352
00:13:44,032 --> 00:13:46,197
know what would be the The big questions
353
00:13:46,197 --> 00:13:48,107
that, you know, you'd encourage me to go
354
00:13:48,107 --> 00:13:49,618
into what would you go into if you
355
00:13:49,618 --> 00:13:51,209
were spying out again, David.
356
00:13:52,179 --> 00:13:54,251
If I was starting out again, I I
357
00:13:54,251 --> 00:13:56,005
wonder if I would do n nucleus physics
358
00:13:56,005 --> 00:13:58,477
6, I do... I might do something different,
359
00:13:58,556 --> 00:13:59,535
but I think
360
00:14:00,882 --> 00:14:02,630
just because I've done it for so many
361
00:14:02,630 --> 00:14:04,536
years, like, you gotta start thinking well, You
362
00:14:04,536 --> 00:14:06,125
know, if I was start they go, I'd
363
00:14:06,125 --> 00:14:08,428
love to know about some other things not
364
00:14:08,428 --> 00:14:10,096
that I find what I'm doing boring.
365
00:14:10,748 --> 00:14:12,980
Because there were so many open questions in
366
00:14:12,980 --> 00:14:14,596
the field and there are so many
367
00:14:15,371 --> 00:14:15,871
important
368
00:14:16,248 --> 00:14:18,973
applications to other fields like fundamental physics and
369
00:14:18,973 --> 00:14:21,306
astro physics and the course all the societal
370
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,029
applications to energy and Medicine to to to
371
00:14:25,029 --> 00:14:26,039
name but a few
372
00:14:26,798 --> 00:14:29,053
But I think I would encourage young people
373
00:14:29,830 --> 00:14:31,905
starting it off in that in the field,
374
00:14:32,783 --> 00:14:35,112
and I'm biased here, but because the the
375
00:14:35,112 --> 00:14:37,026
clue what we've been discussing. But, you know,
376
00:14:37,345 --> 00:14:38,323
I I would
377
00:14:39,577 --> 00:14:42,709
I would encourage them to to challenge authority
378
00:14:42,847 --> 00:14:45,334
around these sorts of things. You know, that
379
00:14:45,334 --> 00:14:47,568
not sort of entered for thinking, you know,
380
00:14:49,083 --> 00:14:52,034
everything's like lay down, all of the foundations
381
00:14:52,034 --> 00:14:54,280
are there the walls of this this structure
382
00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:55,871
this of this topic.
383
00:14:56,587 --> 00:14:59,314
I think I would encourage people to be
384
00:15:00,737 --> 00:15:03,593
more more questioning to to start with the
385
00:15:03,593 --> 00:15:06,370
data. And I think there were other fantastic
386
00:15:06,370 --> 00:15:08,592
things that people could do, and, you know,
387
00:15:09,244 --> 00:15:10,144
I'm a dinosaur
388
00:15:10,842 --> 00:15:12,601
in this sort of thing. But I think
389
00:15:12,601 --> 00:15:14,220
there's a lot that could be done
390
00:15:14,918 --> 00:15:18,115
with techniques like machine learning and so on.
391
00:15:18,689 --> 00:15:21,422
To to look at the data that's available
392
00:15:21,959 --> 00:15:24,193
and let people find patterns in it for
393
00:15:24,193 --> 00:15:24,512
themselves.
394
00:15:25,309 --> 00:15:27,144
Because, you know, I think it's always a
395
00:15:27,144 --> 00:15:29,870
very interesting question in science and physics, you
396
00:15:29,870 --> 00:15:31,884
know, we come to some
397
00:15:32,341 --> 00:15:33,718
understanding the or some model
398
00:15:34,174 --> 00:15:36,326
based on our starting point and the data,
399
00:15:37,059 --> 00:15:39,059
But we're biased. Everything thing we do is
400
00:15:39,059 --> 00:15:41,059
biased and, you know, we have ours and
401
00:15:41,059 --> 00:15:43,299
how we how we decide to do measurements,
402
00:15:43,459 --> 00:15:44,659
how we decide to do things.
403
00:15:45,553 --> 00:15:48,206
May throwing, you know, these more modern
404
00:15:48,903 --> 00:15:52,013
computer techniques that this enormously rich datasets sets
405
00:15:52,013 --> 00:15:55,536
with thousands of data points, you might draw
406
00:15:55,536 --> 00:15:56,673
out a whole different
407
00:15:57,446 --> 00:16:00,072
pattern and things and and it might show
408
00:16:00,072 --> 00:16:01,982
AAA deeper understanding.
409
00:16:03,753 --> 00:16:05,670
Then, you know, what models are there. So
410
00:16:05,830 --> 00:16:07,828
I I just encourage young people always to
411
00:16:07,828 --> 00:16:08,227
question,
412
00:16:09,266 --> 00:16:11,518
but for tip. Maybe that's the long thing
413
00:16:11,518 --> 00:16:13,595
to say, but, you know, that's my feeling
414
00:16:13,595 --> 00:16:15,752
with. I mean, do you ever suffer David
415
00:16:15,752 --> 00:16:18,401
in in physics of kind of people going
416
00:16:18,401 --> 00:16:20,315
into particle physics? That's the sort of sexy
417
00:16:20,315 --> 00:16:20,634
area,
418
00:16:21,193 --> 00:16:23,585
dare I say that and people maybe, you
419
00:16:23,585 --> 00:16:25,739
know, sw you a bit and go and
420
00:16:25,739 --> 00:16:27,095
do they always think of you going into
421
00:16:27,095 --> 00:16:28,866
that feel first of all, you have a
422
00:16:28,866 --> 00:16:30,622
competition with the particle physicists?
423
00:16:31,261 --> 00:16:32,937
They they can be, of course, that sort
424
00:16:32,937 --> 00:16:35,811
of healthy competition between those fields. But I
425
00:16:35,811 --> 00:16:35,890
mean,
426
00:16:37,103 --> 00:16:39,736
they could be quite they are quite different
427
00:16:39,736 --> 00:16:42,928
fields I would say. I mean, particle physics
428
00:16:42,928 --> 00:16:44,500
is... It can be quite
429
00:16:45,097 --> 00:16:47,169
reduction is. You can reduce it down to
430
00:16:47,169 --> 00:16:49,559
sort of finding particles and things like that.
431
00:16:50,436 --> 00:16:53,003
And I think historically a lot people move
432
00:16:53,003 --> 00:16:56,217
from physics 2 particle physics as that field
433
00:16:56,595 --> 00:16:58,591
took off in the fifties and sixties and
434
00:16:58,591 --> 00:16:58,990
so on.
435
00:16:59,709 --> 00:17:01,305
And I think in many ways,
436
00:17:04,350 --> 00:17:06,741
what happened was that nuclear physics turned out
437
00:17:06,741 --> 00:17:07,936
to be too hard.
438
00:17:08,813 --> 00:17:10,899
I know about Don't mean that in a
439
00:17:10,899 --> 00:17:13,687
sort of p way that particle physics is
440
00:17:13,687 --> 00:17:16,156
easy, But I mean that it's hard in
441
00:17:16,156 --> 00:17:18,387
the sense that the the object you're looking
442
00:17:18,387 --> 00:17:18,887
at
443
00:17:19,277 --> 00:17:22,395
is very complicated. It involves hundreds of particles
444
00:17:22,529 --> 00:17:23,029
acting
445
00:17:23,958 --> 00:17:26,655
together. We don't have an overall model as
446
00:17:26,655 --> 00:17:28,653
the nuclear where we would love to help
447
00:17:28,653 --> 00:17:30,239
on various different models,
448
00:17:30,794 --> 00:17:33,673
treating this different aspects of its behavior. But
449
00:17:33,966 --> 00:17:35,021
it's extremely
450
00:17:35,730 --> 00:17:37,350
challenging both to theory
451
00:17:38,529 --> 00:17:40,869
and to experiment. And so that's why
452
00:17:41,809 --> 00:17:44,105
countries are still investing so much in in
453
00:17:44,303 --> 00:17:46,128
facilities to to study that. And, you know,
454
00:17:46,366 --> 00:17:48,112
I think when I when I talk to
455
00:17:48,271 --> 00:17:50,175
Students, I I do make that point, you
456
00:17:50,175 --> 00:17:52,263
know, I think it's important to justify
457
00:17:53,048 --> 00:17:55,376
at the outset. Why is still studying
458
00:17:55,750 --> 00:17:57,896
a field which has bingo over for 100
459
00:17:57,896 --> 00:17:58,214
years.
460
00:17:58,770 --> 00:18:00,122
Not that is it that that is a
461
00:18:00,122 --> 00:18:01,893
good... You know, it goes back to River
462
00:18:03,239 --> 00:18:05,468
initial theory that there was a nucleus of
463
00:18:05,468 --> 00:18:07,617
an anatomy It's about 19 11 I.
464
00:18:08,732 --> 00:18:10,220
And you after then ask you know, after
465
00:18:10,419 --> 00:18:12,416
hundred years don't, you know everything you you
466
00:18:12,416 --> 00:18:14,493
want to know. And, of course, we do
467
00:18:14,493 --> 00:18:16,091
know lots of things. But I think there's
468
00:18:16,091 --> 00:18:18,744
a lot more so, we still don't know.
469
00:18:19,464 --> 00:18:22,265
What's your favorite nucleus dare I ask? Do
470
00:18:22,265 --> 00:18:23,085
you want favorite?
471
00:18:24,265 --> 00:18:26,424
Do you don't want this a favor 1?
472
00:18:27,713 --> 00:18:27,872
Well,
473
00:18:29,383 --> 00:18:30,679
there's a there's a funny
474
00:18:31,054 --> 00:18:33,542
funny story with with nuclei because
475
00:18:34,253 --> 00:18:34,971
you always say,
476
00:18:36,887 --> 00:18:39,441
study nuclei that have an even number of
477
00:18:39,441 --> 00:18:42,075
protons and an even number of neutrons because
478
00:18:42,075 --> 00:18:44,809
there's structure and their properties is is simple.
479
00:18:45,529 --> 00:18:47,130
And if you study ones that have an
480
00:18:47,130 --> 00:18:48,970
odd number of protons and a odd number
481
00:18:48,970 --> 00:18:51,954
of neutrons, Their structure is extremely complicated.
482
00:18:52,566 --> 00:18:54,791
So that's the kind of general rule, but
483
00:18:54,791 --> 00:18:57,255
that there are some special ones that are
484
00:18:57,255 --> 00:18:58,819
so called n equals zed
485
00:18:59,178 --> 00:19:01,724
nuclei have the same number of protons and
486
00:19:01,724 --> 00:19:02,043
neutrons.
487
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,988
And in those systems, even the odd adult
488
00:19:04,988 --> 00:19:06,283
nuclei have a beautiful
489
00:19:07,151 --> 00:19:10,094
simple symmetry that you can look at and
490
00:19:10,094 --> 00:19:10,594
grasp
491
00:19:10,969 --> 00:19:12,719
and get something nice out of it. So
492
00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:14,089
III
493
00:19:14,089 --> 00:19:16,409
studied some years ago, 1 of these odd,
494
00:19:17,049 --> 00:19:19,690
n equals that nuclear was bromine 70. So
495
00:19:19,849 --> 00:19:21,804
I think that would be my favorite. 1
496
00:19:22,583 --> 00:19:24,341
you thought people were said to you your
497
00:19:24,341 --> 00:19:25,779
math to study this, it would be very
498
00:19:25,779 --> 00:19:26,898
complicated breaks it's talk.
499
00:19:27,857 --> 00:19:29,935
For various reasons of cemetery so.
500
00:19:30,746 --> 00:19:32,734
Absolutely nice. Yeah. I'll all that 1. Go
501
00:19:32,734 --> 00:19:34,722
through that 1 there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
502
00:19:34,722 --> 00:19:36,869
thanks, David. Before we go... I'm. Haven't actually
503
00:19:36,869 --> 00:19:37,903
asked you what the name the book were.
504
00:19:38,221 --> 00:19:40,623
Book were you've written. You want to name
505
00:19:40,623 --> 00:19:43,965
check them? Yes. So the... There is actually
506
00:19:43,965 --> 00:19:46,591
gonna be free books in the end. The
507
00:19:46,591 --> 00:19:48,279
only 2 of them are published so far.
508
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,200
And the other 1 is in sort of
509
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:50,700
final
510
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,220
stages of the preparation. So the first book
511
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,700
is called nuclear data, a primer
512
00:19:57,253 --> 00:19:59,646
and that 1 focuses on things like these
513
00:19:59,646 --> 00:20:02,677
gross properties, mass and radius, of the nucleus
514
00:20:02,677 --> 00:20:03,735
and some simple
515
00:20:04,112 --> 00:20:06,106
aspects of the structure of the nucleus.
516
00:20:06,839 --> 00:20:09,393
Then the second book is called nuclear data,
517
00:20:09,553 --> 00:20:12,745
a collective motion view. So that focuses is
518
00:20:12,745 --> 00:20:15,060
on collected properties of nuclei,
519
00:20:15,712 --> 00:20:16,212
particularly
520
00:20:16,827 --> 00:20:19,694
rotation of nuclei and vibration of nuclei.
521
00:20:20,252 --> 00:20:22,322
And the final 1 that John and I
522
00:20:22,322 --> 00:20:23,857
just completely at the moment
523
00:20:24,168 --> 00:20:27,977
is called nuclear data, an independent particle called
524
00:20:27,977 --> 00:20:30,460
motion view. So that's looking at the other
525
00:20:30,516 --> 00:20:31,016
extreme
526
00:20:31,564 --> 00:20:34,118
where all the properties of this nucleus are
527
00:20:34,118 --> 00:20:36,513
dictated by just 1 of the protons or
528
00:20:36,513 --> 00:20:38,668
neutrons that makes it up. So we've got
529
00:20:38,668 --> 00:20:40,046
a sort of general book
530
00:20:40,837 --> 00:20:44,289
1 our collective behavior at 1 about, an
531
00:20:44,427 --> 00:20:45,862
independent particle behavior.
532
00:20:46,341 --> 00:20:48,335
And I think we're we kinda love to
533
00:20:48,335 --> 00:20:50,111
write more, but we probably.
534
00:20:51,613 --> 00:20:54,154
Enough for now. Said 2 the intelligence books.
535
00:20:54,868 --> 00:20:56,615
Lovely, David. Before we go, 1 last question
536
00:20:56,694 --> 00:20:58,679
I was thinking, nuclear physics in in sort
537
00:20:58,679 --> 00:21:01,000
of the public mind, they associate that with
538
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,704
nuclear weapons. And the Oppenheimer film, did you
539
00:21:03,704 --> 00:21:04,977
watch it? Did what did you make of
540
00:21:04,977 --> 00:21:05,136
it?
541
00:21:05,932 --> 00:21:07,940
Alright. I thought that film is very good.
542
00:21:08,180 --> 00:21:10,116
Yeah. I... Because I I'd I
543
00:21:10,573 --> 00:21:12,727
I, you know, I I often get worried,
544
00:21:12,887 --> 00:21:14,578
but when I see the films a very
545
00:21:14,578 --> 00:21:14,897
long.
546
00:21:15,695 --> 00:21:17,931
3 hours. It was 3 hours wasn't it.
547
00:21:18,090 --> 00:21:18,889
And I found...
548
00:21:19,767 --> 00:21:21,284
I think I watched that film when I
549
00:21:21,284 --> 00:21:22,901
watched the June 2 film,
550
00:21:23,772 --> 00:21:26,157
and both those films were very long, but
551
00:21:26,157 --> 00:21:27,350
then they came to the end that I
552
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:28,940
didn't notice that they were long. Now, it's
553
00:21:28,940 --> 00:21:30,530
kinda like, 3 hours went by. I said,
554
00:21:30,689 --> 00:21:32,200
in my mind, that's a good film. My
555
00:21:32,279 --> 00:21:34,384
I bought it. I thought he was very
556
00:21:34,838 --> 00:21:36,826
well done. It was very well active Wasn't
557
00:21:36,826 --> 00:21:39,131
it. And Killing and Murphy was... I fought
558
00:21:39,131 --> 00:21:39,631
very
559
00:21:40,085 --> 00:21:41,754
very, very good as open oppenheimer, but and
560
00:21:41,834 --> 00:21:43,382
I think it at the
561
00:21:44,075 --> 00:21:46,062
the sense of the time and how those
562
00:21:46,062 --> 00:21:48,073
people work. And it felt kind of
563
00:21:48,526 --> 00:21:50,037
it could felt kind of real to me.
564
00:21:50,196 --> 00:21:52,527
I I could see those scientists like,
565
00:21:53,246 --> 00:21:55,084
who are acted as there's sort of real
566
00:21:55,084 --> 00:21:56,362
peak, and I don't know what you felt.
567
00:21:56,522 --> 00:21:57,960
But IIII
568
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,449
like to. Yeah. III only looked to my
569
00:22:00,449 --> 00:22:02,204
watch once during the film, which I think
570
00:22:02,204 --> 00:22:03,640
is a really good sign and, you know,
571
00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:05,236
often I get quite bored with films.
572
00:22:05,887 --> 00:22:08,029
And that 1, I didn't. There was only
573
00:22:08,029 --> 00:22:09,377
once I looked at my watch. And, yeah,
574
00:22:09,457 --> 00:22:11,440
it was 3 hours. It was quite remarkable.
575
00:22:11,836 --> 00:22:11,995
Yeah.
576
00:22:12,884 --> 00:22:14,403
Did it lead to a ups surge of
577
00:22:14,403 --> 00:22:16,880
interest in physics or not had any impact
578
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,558
you think? Would do people not make the
579
00:22:18,558 --> 00:22:20,476
link between bombs and the kind of research
580
00:22:20,476 --> 00:22:20,876
you're doing?
581
00:22:22,882 --> 00:22:24,256
Well, I hope they don't make
582
00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:27,887
They do negative to what. IIII
583
00:22:27,887 --> 00:22:30,111
don't know really. I only got people talking.
584
00:22:30,349 --> 00:22:32,352
I mean, it's always got the. Got got
585
00:22:32,352 --> 00:22:34,662
the, you know, and it has got people
586
00:22:34,662 --> 00:22:36,733
talking and people who asked me about it
587
00:22:36,733 --> 00:22:39,043
and things like that. But but I... I'm
588
00:22:39,043 --> 00:22:40,817
not sure it's directly affected
589
00:22:41,845 --> 00:22:44,153
students interested in, like, joining the field or
590
00:22:44,153 --> 00:22:46,621
something like that. And not not to my
591
00:22:46,621 --> 00:22:48,474
knowledge, but It'd I'd be interesting to
592
00:22:49,105 --> 00:22:51,105
to know. I mean, obviously, that that that
593
00:22:51,105 --> 00:22:52,565
film's got a lot of,
594
00:22:53,424 --> 00:22:55,605
you know, very very sad historical
595
00:22:57,439 --> 00:22:59,037
features to it. And, you know, it means,
596
00:22:59,277 --> 00:23:01,674
it's a true story It's history. I I'd
597
00:23:01,674 --> 00:23:02,973
be interesting to know,
598
00:23:03,832 --> 00:23:06,444
how it's changed people's views of that about
599
00:23:06,564 --> 00:23:08,240
the area of science.
600
00:23:09,198 --> 00:23:11,113
Alright. Well, I hope your books get more
601
00:23:11,113 --> 00:23:12,549
students into the field. So thanks so much,
602
00:23:12,709 --> 00:23:14,359
David would been brilliant to talk to you
603
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:15,220
and
604
00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:16,640
thanks for your time on the podcast.
605
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:17,920
Thank you very much.
606
00:23:25,762 --> 00:23:28,404
Helium is an inner gas that is relatively
607
00:23:28,619 --> 00:23:30,365
rare and earth's atmosphere.
608
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:31,476
However,
609
00:23:31,809 --> 00:23:35,008
it plays crucial roles in science and technology.
610
00:23:35,857 --> 00:23:39,112
Had, it's also used to float party balloons.
611
00:23:40,161 --> 00:23:43,526
It's an expensive commodity at a non renewable
612
00:23:43,742 --> 00:23:46,527
resource, which is why many users try to
613
00:23:46,527 --> 00:23:49,584
recover and reuse as much of the element
614
00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:50,673
as possible.
615
00:23:51,467 --> 00:23:52,817
At the Uk's Isis,
616
00:23:53,532 --> 00:23:54,350
neutron and
617
00:23:54,723 --> 00:23:54,961
source,
618
00:23:55,770 --> 00:23:58,942
That process is the responsibility of dale keeping,
619
00:23:59,656 --> 00:24:00,869
who is the facility's
620
00:24:01,242 --> 00:24:02,907
helium recovery manager.
621
00:24:03,796 --> 00:24:06,046
He joins me down the line from Har
622
00:24:06,341 --> 00:24:07,080
in Oxford.
623
00:24:07,852 --> 00:24:10,023
Hi, Dale. Welcome to the podcast.
624
00:24:10,557 --> 00:24:10,875
Hiya.
625
00:24:12,083 --> 00:24:15,103
So so, Dale, how is helium used in
626
00:24:15,103 --> 00:24:16,772
science and technology at Isis?
627
00:24:17,567 --> 00:24:19,180
We mainly helium
628
00:24:19,569 --> 00:24:21,977
to call samples down in a Cryo.
629
00:24:22,909 --> 00:24:23,647
The helium
630
00:24:24,260 --> 00:24:25,635
supplies heat exchanger,
631
00:24:26,089 --> 00:24:28,975
which is connected to the sample space
632
00:24:30,083 --> 00:24:32,656
The helium is supplied to the heat exchanger
633
00:24:32,794 --> 00:24:35,187
and then is pumped across it to cool
634
00:24:35,187 --> 00:24:36,724
the sample down via
635
00:24:37,181 --> 00:24:39,390
evaporation to 1.6 k
636
00:24:40,309 --> 00:24:43,286
Right. And so is that is that liquid
637
00:24:43,346 --> 00:24:46,382
helium that you're using then? Yeah. So we
638
00:24:46,382 --> 00:24:49,352
use liquid helium within the main bar? Of
639
00:24:49,352 --> 00:24:52,368
the price that. Yeah. You're cooling samples. Is
640
00:24:52,368 --> 00:24:54,352
that what you're cooling to to get them
641
00:24:54,352 --> 00:24:56,653
down to to a very low temperature so
642
00:24:56,653 --> 00:24:57,740
that people can make
643
00:24:58,337 --> 00:25:01,205
make measurements at low temperatures? Is that is
644
00:25:01,205 --> 00:25:04,153
that mostly what you're doing? Or are are
645
00:25:04,153 --> 00:25:07,181
you cooling magnets and and and and other
646
00:25:07,181 --> 00:25:09,830
things? Yeah. We we we do have super
647
00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:10,628
conducting magnets.
648
00:25:11,107 --> 00:25:11,586
And,
649
00:25:12,944 --> 00:25:13,423
mainly,
650
00:25:13,902 --> 00:25:15,738
what we find the samples eye, it could
651
00:25:15,738 --> 00:25:18,169
be mainly a crystal or or powder
652
00:25:18,705 --> 00:25:20,618
or something like that. Yeah. We we do
653
00:25:20,618 --> 00:25:22,291
our other patients as well,
654
00:25:23,168 --> 00:25:24,864
where we use maybe Cc.
655
00:25:25,813 --> 00:25:28,680
Or which is close like refrigerators or flow
656
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,750
price stats and and things like that that
657
00:25:30,750 --> 00:25:32,741
we we can use as well. And where
658
00:25:32,741 --> 00:25:33,958
does our helium
659
00:25:34,589 --> 00:25:37,066
supply come from at the moment. I mean,
660
00:25:37,306 --> 00:25:39,543
I'm I'm guessing that you would get a
661
00:25:39,543 --> 00:25:41,994
delivery from a from a specialist
662
00:25:42,674 --> 00:25:43,893
supplier. But
663
00:25:44,352 --> 00:25:46,430
where do they get the helium from?
664
00:25:47,309 --> 00:25:47,809
Helium
665
00:25:48,268 --> 00:25:51,465
is trapped in yes crust by imp role?
666
00:25:52,039 --> 00:25:55,874
And is extracted as a product of the
667
00:25:55,874 --> 00:25:57,472
liquid natural gas industry.
668
00:25:58,591 --> 00:26:01,402
Therefore, it's only really found in a few
669
00:26:01,402 --> 00:26:04,519
places around the world. For example, the Us,
670
00:26:05,158 --> 00:26:05,558
Algeria,
671
00:26:06,037 --> 00:26:09,246
Our he supply actually comes from Qatar. I
672
00:26:09,246 --> 00:26:11,553
see. And it's... I'm I mean, I think
673
00:26:11,712 --> 00:26:14,280
I'm right in saying that it's it's created
674
00:26:14,336 --> 00:26:15,950
by the... Is it the radioactive
675
00:26:16,564 --> 00:26:16,802
decay?
676
00:26:17,611 --> 00:26:21,259
Of uranium, I think underground. Yeah. Produces the
677
00:26:21,259 --> 00:26:24,273
helium, and then it somehow gets trapped in
678
00:26:24,273 --> 00:26:24,773
with
679
00:26:25,398 --> 00:26:27,941
with the natural gas and and and sort
680
00:26:27,941 --> 00:26:28,838
of extracted
681
00:26:29,212 --> 00:26:31,857
that way. Yeah. I think it's extracted from
682
00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:33,446
fractional dis.
683
00:26:34,154 --> 00:26:35,588
I mean, I'm guessing that... You know, there's
684
00:26:35,588 --> 00:26:36,486
lots of radioactive
685
00:26:36,942 --> 00:26:39,890
decay going on in the earth, but that's
686
00:26:39,890 --> 00:26:43,497
a that's a fairly slow process. So
687
00:26:43,888 --> 00:26:46,271
it it it is in limited supply, isn't
688
00:26:46,271 --> 00:26:48,257
it? I mean, new new
689
00:26:48,733 --> 00:26:51,355
supply, areas open up. I mean, you mentioned
690
00:26:51,593 --> 00:26:53,474
Qatar, which I think is a fairly new
691
00:26:54,473 --> 00:26:57,750
producer of helium. But how secure is is
692
00:26:57,750 --> 00:27:00,627
the supply? If we don't use it responsibly?
693
00:27:00,867 --> 00:27:02,305
Will it run out eventually?
694
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,480
Yeah. So people have predicted that Helium will
695
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:07,539
run out in,
696
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,359
a few hundred years time,
697
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,000
depending on the usage levels.
698
00:27:13,527 --> 00:27:15,594
Things that, I, you know, I think do
699
00:27:15,594 --> 00:27:18,775
affect the supply are maintenance of the gas
700
00:27:18,775 --> 00:27:19,832
company's plant
701
00:27:20,286 --> 00:27:21,581
weather conflict
702
00:27:23,403 --> 00:27:25,312
you know, this is why we having a
703
00:27:25,312 --> 00:27:27,937
system in place to capture as much helium
704
00:27:27,937 --> 00:27:28,993
as we possibly.
705
00:27:29,622 --> 00:27:32,986
Cam is is crucial to ensure a continuous
706
00:27:33,042 --> 00:27:34,099
source for
707
00:27:34,633 --> 00:27:35,133
scientific
708
00:27:35,588 --> 00:27:35,986
experiments.
709
00:27:36,956 --> 00:27:38,310
And and so how do you do that?
710
00:27:38,549 --> 00:27:40,721
How do you how do you capture Helium
711
00:27:41,415 --> 00:27:44,282
at the moment? Helium itself. It's it's a
712
00:27:44,282 --> 00:27:44,782
tiny
713
00:27:45,253 --> 00:27:47,163
Adam isn't it that can sort of sneak
714
00:27:47,163 --> 00:27:48,379
out of your pipes
715
00:27:48,913 --> 00:27:51,460
very easily. How how how do you how
716
00:27:51,460 --> 00:27:53,609
do you recycle it and and capture it?
717
00:27:54,166 --> 00:27:56,747
Is 1 of 1 of our biggest challenges
718
00:27:56,804 --> 00:27:58,631
is is trying to keep all of the
719
00:27:58,631 --> 00:27:59,585
helium leak tight.
720
00:28:00,856 --> 00:28:03,579
You know, we have maybe 2 kilometers of
721
00:28:03,579 --> 00:28:06,231
pipe work and hundreds of o to,
722
00:28:06,688 --> 00:28:08,283
you know, try and keep on top of
723
00:28:08,283 --> 00:28:10,537
which can be quite a challenge
724
00:28:11,009 --> 00:28:11,650
for the team.
725
00:28:12,849 --> 00:28:14,710
But... Yeah. We we try and recycle
726
00:28:15,490 --> 00:28:17,570
all of the helium that's used out in
727
00:28:17,570 --> 00:28:18,390
the experiments
728
00:28:18,703 --> 00:28:21,826
So when the helium leaves the experiments at
729
00:28:21,883 --> 00:28:24,903
atmospheric pressure is collected via a pipeline,
730
00:28:25,459 --> 00:28:28,098
which then makes its way back to the
731
00:28:28,098 --> 00:28:31,786
helium recovery building. The helium expands into
732
00:28:32,402 --> 00:28:33,460
a very large
733
00:28:33,916 --> 00:28:37,595
collection balloon, which is 22 meters cubes in
734
00:28:37,595 --> 00:28:37,993
volume.
735
00:28:39,108 --> 00:28:42,374
The helium is then compressed up to a
736
00:28:42,374 --> 00:28:44,467
maximum of a hundred and 95 bar
737
00:28:46,460 --> 00:28:49,019
gas then makes its way through series of
738
00:28:49,019 --> 00:28:49,500
filters.
739
00:28:52,073 --> 00:28:54,401
And then it will go into a man
740
00:28:55,093 --> 00:28:56,944
depending on its purity
741
00:28:57,477 --> 00:29:00,100
would depend upon what Mc bank it will
742
00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:01,647
be put in. So
743
00:29:02,099 --> 00:29:04,163
if it's less than 98 percent,
744
00:29:04,797 --> 00:29:07,019
it go into what we call as our
745
00:29:07,019 --> 00:29:07,971
sort of dirty bank.
746
00:29:09,733 --> 00:29:12,751
If it's better than 98 percent efficient, it
747
00:29:12,751 --> 00:29:14,602
will go into our clean
748
00:29:15,293 --> 00:29:15,928
sort storage.
749
00:29:16,579 --> 00:29:18,747
And then from there, when we want to
750
00:29:18,883 --> 00:29:19,383
produce
751
00:29:21,108 --> 00:29:23,674
liquid helium, we can then run
752
00:29:24,064 --> 00:29:24,883
it's gas
753
00:29:26,140 --> 00:29:26,640
through
754
00:29:27,018 --> 00:29:29,652
a line dryer, which is essentially another filter,
755
00:29:30,211 --> 00:29:32,366
and then it will make its way into,
756
00:29:33,339 --> 00:29:35,099
delete viral or cold box.
757
00:29:36,059 --> 00:29:36,559
And
758
00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:39,599
first of all, it will enter a purifier
759
00:29:40,059 --> 00:29:42,549
where it will remove all of its impurities,
760
00:29:43,027 --> 00:29:45,359
and then it will go into the l
761
00:29:45,416 --> 00:29:47,726
side of things to be cooled down,
762
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:49,797
use liquid.
763
00:29:50,689 --> 00:29:53,242
And then from there, it will go into
764
00:29:53,242 --> 00:29:53,960
a very large,
765
00:29:55,955 --> 00:29:56,673
mother vessel,
766
00:29:58,123 --> 00:30:00,191
which what we have... We have a 2000
767
00:30:00,191 --> 00:30:00,691
liter
768
00:30:01,146 --> 00:30:01,646
mother.
769
00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:04,248
And then from there, we can d cam
770
00:30:04,248 --> 00:30:06,157
into smaller mobile vessels.
771
00:30:07,048 --> 00:30:08,506
And that's where we can
772
00:30:09,283 --> 00:30:11,518
take these jira out into the into the
773
00:30:11,518 --> 00:30:12,737
halls within Isis
774
00:30:13,194 --> 00:30:15,682
to be used again for experiments. So It's
775
00:30:15,682 --> 00:30:16,818
just a continuous
776
00:30:17,589 --> 00:30:18,065
cycle.
777
00:30:18,780 --> 00:30:20,527
So could can you give us an idea
778
00:30:20,527 --> 00:30:23,148
of of how much liquid helium you would
779
00:30:23,148 --> 00:30:23,648
be
780
00:30:24,278 --> 00:30:24,778
producing
781
00:30:25,156 --> 00:30:25,975
or using
782
00:30:26,512 --> 00:30:28,666
at Isis in a... I don't know in
783
00:30:28,666 --> 00:30:30,182
a week or a month? Is it a?
784
00:30:30,581 --> 00:30:32,909
Is it is it a huge amount or
785
00:30:32,989 --> 00:30:36,359
I suppose that's re relatively speaking? Yeah. So
786
00:30:36,418 --> 00:30:38,092
so when we we we tend to use
787
00:30:38,092 --> 00:30:40,006
a lot more helium when when we're in
788
00:30:40,006 --> 00:30:40,405
cycle.
789
00:30:41,459 --> 00:30:43,556
So our l fire produces
790
00:30:44,255 --> 00:30:45,613
20 liquid is an hour.
791
00:30:46,412 --> 00:30:46,912
And
792
00:30:48,824 --> 00:30:49,780
when we're in cycle,
793
00:30:50,179 --> 00:30:52,252
we we can almost guarantee that the l
794
00:30:52,252 --> 00:30:54,564
fire will be running throughout throughout the cycle.
795
00:30:54,803 --> 00:30:56,956
So it's it's it's quite a lot we
796
00:30:56,956 --> 00:30:57,410
get
797
00:30:58,088 --> 00:31:00,003
So in in cycle, does that mean when
798
00:31:00,003 --> 00:31:03,036
the when when you're producing neutrons and ons
799
00:31:03,036 --> 00:31:05,430
when people are doing experiments. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
800
00:31:06,321 --> 00:31:08,149
Okay. So so it sounds to me that,
801
00:31:08,228 --> 00:31:09,897
you know, you you you have to put
802
00:31:09,897 --> 00:31:12,599
quite a bit of effort into into keeping
803
00:31:12,599 --> 00:31:14,799
your helium in the pipes, and then
804
00:31:15,318 --> 00:31:18,667
recycling it. Are are there alternatives to to
805
00:31:18,667 --> 00:31:21,400
using helium for some cryo
806
00:31:22,017 --> 00:31:22,814
applications at Isis?
807
00:31:23,452 --> 00:31:25,719
Yeah. So So we can use
808
00:31:26,491 --> 00:31:27,945
close like refrigerators
809
00:31:28,478 --> 00:31:29,932
to to call our samples,
810
00:31:30,942 --> 00:31:33,748
such as pulse shoots. However, you know, they
811
00:31:33,748 --> 00:31:36,245
are slower to reach low temperatures,
812
00:31:37,024 --> 00:31:39,581
and they won't go below 4.5 k.
813
00:31:41,035 --> 00:31:43,434
That there is also the argument that this
814
00:31:43,434 --> 00:31:45,134
uses a lot of electricity
815
00:31:45,434 --> 00:31:48,234
as opposed to use helium that has already
816
00:31:48,234 --> 00:31:49,009
been recycled
817
00:31:49,768 --> 00:31:52,162
Oh, I see. Oh, that's interesting because I
818
00:31:52,162 --> 00:31:53,757
mean, I would have thought that, you know,
819
00:31:53,917 --> 00:31:54,816
sort of re
820
00:31:55,912 --> 00:31:58,560
helium would that that that would have a
821
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,194
certain energy cost to it. But but you're
822
00:32:01,194 --> 00:32:03,769
saying that that that is more efficient than
823
00:32:03,907 --> 00:32:04,865
than using these...
824
00:32:07,033 --> 00:32:07,990
Mechanical coolers.
825
00:32:08,628 --> 00:32:11,122
Yeah. Yeah. Because because we're we're l
826
00:32:12,537 --> 00:32:14,313
virtually all the time. Is
827
00:32:15,023 --> 00:32:17,406
it sort of offset the electrical side of
828
00:32:17,406 --> 00:32:19,789
using a Cc. And As was as I
829
00:32:19,789 --> 00:32:22,649
mentioned in the intro, Helium is also used
830
00:32:22,649 --> 00:32:25,443
in in party balloons And I think a,
831
00:32:25,522 --> 00:32:26,578
you know, a lot of
832
00:32:27,029 --> 00:32:27,529
physicists,
833
00:32:28,140 --> 00:32:30,623
particularly those who work in cryo.
834
00:32:31,964 --> 00:32:33,798
Are, you know, a a gassed guest by
835
00:32:33,798 --> 00:32:36,351
this that, you know, they they see party
836
00:32:36,351 --> 00:32:38,605
balloons as a as a as wasting
837
00:32:39,461 --> 00:32:41,557
a a finite and very valuable
838
00:32:42,345 --> 00:32:42,663
resource.
839
00:32:43,695 --> 00:32:46,315
But you're you're involved in a program to
840
00:32:46,315 --> 00:32:48,958
to try to recover some of that helium
841
00:32:49,014 --> 00:32:51,333
that's used for balloons. Can you Can you
842
00:32:51,333 --> 00:32:52,450
tell us a bit about that?
843
00:32:53,407 --> 00:32:55,422
Yeah. So so I presented
844
00:32:56,597 --> 00:32:59,389
a local school to talk about the importance
845
00:32:59,389 --> 00:33:00,527
of recycling
846
00:33:01,638 --> 00:33:04,515
tied this into how we can recycle helium
847
00:33:04,515 --> 00:33:05,154
at Isis.
848
00:33:06,432 --> 00:33:07,971
So the school children
849
00:33:08,364 --> 00:33:11,229
and now recycle their helium balloons that would
850
00:33:11,229 --> 00:33:12,980
have otherwise being discarded.
851
00:33:14,174 --> 00:33:15,868
The this this helium
852
00:33:16,895 --> 00:33:18,805
that they're recycling. And it it will be
853
00:33:18,805 --> 00:33:20,499
used in experiments.
854
00:33:20,874 --> 00:33:21,374
And,
855
00:33:21,909 --> 00:33:23,443
you know, it's nice the children
856
00:33:23,833 --> 00:33:25,602
can have a direct impact
857
00:33:25,975 --> 00:33:28,275
on the science that is taking place Isis.
858
00:33:29,465 --> 00:33:31,706
I I think they should feel very proud
859
00:33:31,706 --> 00:33:32,664
that's what they're doing.
860
00:33:33,780 --> 00:33:35,455
And and how does that work? Do you...
861
00:33:36,333 --> 00:33:38,189
Do do you have, like, a big balloon
862
00:33:38,406 --> 00:33:40,661
that you you sort of d can't
863
00:33:40,973 --> 00:33:43,358
the helium from the small balloons into and
864
00:33:43,358 --> 00:33:45,902
then take that big balloon back to Isis.
865
00:33:46,061 --> 00:33:48,288
Is that how it works. We're we're able
866
00:33:48,288 --> 00:33:50,116
to receive the balloons from the school.
867
00:33:52,122 --> 00:33:54,374
Get get delivered to isis. So
868
00:33:54,750 --> 00:33:57,139
we simply just take the balloons and and
869
00:33:57,139 --> 00:33:58,971
run it through a small vacuum pump.
870
00:33:59,864 --> 00:34:01,862
At low pressure, which would just go back
871
00:34:01,862 --> 00:34:04,999
to our back to our large helium balloon
872
00:34:05,298 --> 00:34:06,357
bag. So
873
00:34:06,736 --> 00:34:09,545
yeah. It's very very quick. Very easy. Do
874
00:34:09,545 --> 00:34:11,778
do you think that's that's something that could
875
00:34:11,778 --> 00:34:13,851
be done on a larger scale.
876
00:34:14,968 --> 00:34:17,121
I mean, III have no idea, you know,
877
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,471
but how how much Helium is used
878
00:34:20,248 --> 00:34:21,765
in the Uk, for example,
879
00:34:22,403 --> 00:34:25,357
you know, to to to inflate balloons. But
880
00:34:25,516 --> 00:34:27,368
I mean, could could this be something that
881
00:34:27,368 --> 00:34:29,046
could be done on a on a wider
882
00:34:29,046 --> 00:34:31,282
scale, do you think? For mine for my
883
00:34:31,282 --> 00:34:33,061
understanding. And this is sort of the first
884
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,842
this this been really done around this. So,
885
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,149
you know, it'd be great if if people
886
00:34:38,149 --> 00:34:38,786
could do that.
887
00:34:41,028 --> 00:34:42,778
Some from my understanding, there's only...
888
00:34:43,335 --> 00:34:44,869
I think there's only around 20
889
00:34:45,641 --> 00:34:46,755
helium recovery plants,
890
00:34:48,124 --> 00:34:50,441
in the in in in England. So
891
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,699
I think it would be quite a challenge
892
00:34:52,758 --> 00:34:53,258
to
893
00:34:54,436 --> 00:34:55,335
implement something
894
00:34:56,444 --> 00:34:58,512
on a big scale. So... Lily,
895
00:34:59,547 --> 00:35:01,694
Good stuff. And and finally Dale,
896
00:35:02,331 --> 00:35:06,266
you your background, your training is in auto
897
00:35:06,402 --> 00:35:06,902
mechanics
898
00:35:07,436 --> 00:35:07,936
and
899
00:35:08,471 --> 00:35:09,186
and plumbing.
900
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:10,579
Can you
901
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,480
maybe tell our listeners how you became interested
902
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:15,140
in working
903
00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:17,219
at Isis? And
904
00:35:17,774 --> 00:35:19,048
you know, you know, how how you got
905
00:35:19,048 --> 00:35:20,903
this job as Helium
906
00:35:21,359 --> 00:35:21,859
recovery
907
00:35:22,634 --> 00:35:24,760
manager. Yeah. I started off as
908
00:35:25,358 --> 00:35:26,018
a vehicle
909
00:35:26,874 --> 00:35:27,773
technician where
910
00:35:29,189 --> 00:35:30,247
where I was a teenager,
911
00:35:32,301 --> 00:35:34,145
you know. Play him with things in the
912
00:35:34,145 --> 00:35:34,463
garage.
913
00:35:35,972 --> 00:35:37,322
Yeah. And then it went from there. I
914
00:35:37,322 --> 00:35:39,545
got got got qualified as a vehicle technician
915
00:35:39,545 --> 00:35:41,710
and wanting to carry on learn in, so
916
00:35:41,869 --> 00:35:43,309
I don't I done some plumbing in and
917
00:35:43,309 --> 00:35:45,949
then moved on to some gas work. Yeah.
918
00:35:46,109 --> 00:35:47,550
So we're a job that was advertised at
919
00:35:47,710 --> 00:35:48,929
Isis, and
920
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,588
we're gonna the cryo gen team. So so,
921
00:35:52,667 --> 00:35:53,462
yeah. I applied.
922
00:35:54,098 --> 00:35:55,450
And, yeah. I was fortunate to get it.
923
00:35:55,530 --> 00:35:58,154
So, yeah, I just always wanted to continue
924
00:35:58,154 --> 00:35:59,719
my learning and and
925
00:36:00,399 --> 00:36:00,798
you know,
926
00:36:01,518 --> 00:36:02,317
he can prove him.
927
00:36:03,915 --> 00:36:05,135
And with Cryo,
928
00:36:06,712 --> 00:36:08,550
you know, for for me every day is
929
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:09,190
a school day,
930
00:36:09,924 --> 00:36:12,102
I'll always be learning with cryo.
931
00:36:12,481 --> 00:36:12,981
So
932
00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:16,635
yeah. Really really really fascinating to me really.
933
00:36:17,449 --> 00:36:19,210
And and what sort of advice would you
934
00:36:19,210 --> 00:36:20,829
give to somebody who has,
935
00:36:21,289 --> 00:36:22,809
you know, the technical skills,
936
00:36:23,609 --> 00:36:26,010
and wants to, you know, work in a
937
00:36:26,010 --> 00:36:26,829
in a scientific
938
00:36:27,302 --> 00:36:29,290
facility like Isis. What...
939
00:36:30,244 --> 00:36:32,630
Did you have any career advice for them?
940
00:36:33,186 --> 00:36:34,776
How how should they pursue that?
941
00:36:35,509 --> 00:36:36,628
Yeah. I'd I'd just say,
942
00:36:37,827 --> 00:36:40,463
you know, just just just keep keep learning.
943
00:36:41,582 --> 00:36:43,340
I didn't know what I wanted to do.
944
00:36:43,912 --> 00:36:46,319
Until I was in in my twenties. So,
945
00:36:46,455 --> 00:36:48,442
you know, there's there's there's plenty of time
946
00:36:48,442 --> 00:36:51,780
to, you know, find find the right route
947
00:36:51,780 --> 00:36:55,062
for you. I was very hesitant about applying
948
00:36:55,062 --> 00:36:57,773
for the job because I didn't have a
949
00:36:57,773 --> 00:36:58,273
certain
950
00:36:58,810 --> 00:36:59,310
qualifications
951
00:37:00,326 --> 00:37:00,826
around,
952
00:37:01,522 --> 00:37:02,022
Cryo
953
00:37:03,293 --> 00:37:05,930
but, yeah, gave a go, and yeah, I
954
00:37:05,930 --> 00:37:08,486
was lucky enough to, be accepted. So, yeah,
955
00:37:08,646 --> 00:37:10,658
I'd just say, you know, get get give
956
00:37:10,658 --> 00:37:12,414
it a go, You know? This is something
957
00:37:12,414 --> 00:37:14,410
you're interested in, You know, but go for
958
00:37:14,410 --> 00:37:17,124
it. Well, that's great. Thanks. Thanks for talking
959
00:37:17,124 --> 00:37:20,974
about Helium Recovery dell. That's that's 1 of
960
00:37:20,974 --> 00:37:23,375
my favorite subjects, so smell problems.
961
00:37:31,541 --> 00:37:33,217
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
962
00:37:33,217 --> 00:37:36,351
for this week's podcast. Thanks to dale keeping
963
00:37:36,743 --> 00:37:38,414
David Jenkins and Mat team
964
00:37:39,210 --> 00:37:42,075
For joining me today and a special thanks
965
00:37:42,075 --> 00:37:43,826
to our producer Fred Isles.
966
00:37:44,479 --> 00:37:46,735
I hope you've been enjoying the new music
967
00:37:46,954 --> 00:37:47,853
in the podcast.
968
00:37:48,311 --> 00:37:50,487
It's called 137
969
00:37:50,546 --> 00:37:53,441
and was composed and performed by the physicist
970
00:37:53,914 --> 00:37:54,813
Philip Lori.
971
00:37:55,588 --> 00:37:58,240
He talks about the significance of that number
972
00:37:58,298 --> 00:38:01,327
and the creative process involved in making the
973
00:38:01,327 --> 00:38:01,827
music
974
00:38:02,218 --> 00:38:04,940
over on the Physics World stories podcast.
975
00:38:05,552 --> 00:38:07,377
And you can listen to that on the
976
00:38:07,536 --> 00:38:11,304
Physics World website or at your favorite podcast
977
00:38:11,518 --> 00:38:11,914
provider.
978
00:38:12,549 --> 00:38:13,739
Just look for the headline,
979
00:38:14,294 --> 00:38:17,570
swift earthquakes and new podcast music
980
00:38:18,278 --> 00:38:20,670
inspired by the fine structure constant.
981
00:38:21,706 --> 00:38:24,656
And you heard right, the podcast also looks
982
00:38:24,656 --> 00:38:26,511
at the seismic activity
983
00:38:26,984 --> 00:38:29,405
associated with Taylor Swift concerts
984
00:38:29,864 --> 00:38:30,764
with the si
985
00:38:31,704 --> 00:38:32,204
Jacqueline
986
00:38:32,824 --> 00:38:33,964
Kaplan Hour,