Nerd Sesh - Mailbag: Jokic over Steph & Kobe? What’s Ant’s ceiling?

00:00:01
Speaker 1: The volume. No, oh my god, how could he do that? By watch what Charles Darwin? The nerves is where it's at.

00:00:23
Speaker 2: Welcome everybody back into Nerd Sash as always, I'm Garson Grabber. Alongside me is Logan Camden, and today we are gonna be talking about what you guys have asked us to. We're doing a mailbag episode today and I'm pretty pumped. You guys threw a lot of good questions our way. However, the one surprise of the day Logan not a single March Madness question? How about that?

00:00:46
Speaker 1: Honestly kind of surprising.

00:00:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, Unfortunately it has led me to lose my home considering that I had. There will be a March Madness question at minus two fifty and I put all my life savings on it. So we'll see how that affects the show going forwards. Guys, I will be out on the street. But you know who won't Logan is Nikola Jokic because he's doing pretty well for himself. And Richard Morgan asks if Jokicic performs at a similar level to what he did last year and the Nuggets come out on top, how much higher do you view him all time? You've often talked about how he's having the highest offensive peak ever, but as he eclipse the likes of say Steph or Kobe.

00:01:23
Speaker 1: That's a great question, and I think it it comes down to how you view longevity in your view of an all time player. In my opinion, I think it would because I value peak more than anything else, and I don't know, I view Yolkic in a very rare tier of athletes. Where we were on Jason's show, which ironically will air after this airs, but we were talking about the inevitability of the Nuggets, and I don't know about you, Carson. I mean, Jokic to me has this feel of such control and dominance over the game. It's a Patrick Mahomes level feel where I would be surprised if the Nuggets don't end up winning the title this season, and I would be surprised if Jokic doesn't ascend the mountain one more time. The Nuggets are such a great team conglomerate, and then Jokic is so dominant on his own I'd be surprised if it didn't happen this year. And if he does get it done, then I'd be okay with that. You just look at the overall impact that Jokic can have on team offense and the team aspect of it in general. Right, Steph has a special weapon in his own right, the fact that he's has so much gravity off ball gravity, and he's the greatest shooter of all time. And Kobe is one of the most skilled basketball players in NBA history and one of the greatest pure bucket getters. But Jokic's effectiveness and efficiency is just on a different planet than those guys. The way that he can get to these unstoppable looks, the way that he is in a completely different tier than those guys as a playmaker and elevating his teammates, and the fact that he's more impactful defensively and on the glass. Like, I just think Jokic's impact surpasses both of those guys. And you can make that argument pretty concretely. If he does it again again, I think longevity is kind of the determining factor on you know, does Yokic need to do it more? Does he need to sustain this level? But if he climbs the mountain again, I'm I think I would put him over the likes of Steph or Kobe. I would put him in those top ten kind of conversations all time.

00:03:20
Speaker 2: Interesting. So I have the top twenty five all time that we did from this past offseason, and when we did that list coming off of last year's finals run, I had Jokic at number sixteen. If he replicates last year's success, without a question, he is surpassing number fifteen, who was Kevin Garnett, Number fourteen, who was Jerry West, number thirteen, who was Kevin Durant. Frankly, he's going to inevitably pass those guys like he has just achieved a peak in my opinion, that so far exceeds any of theirs. All due respect, I think that k Katie, Jerry West, all those guys had very high peaks. But the sort of inevitable dominance we are seeing from Jokics right now as this all time singular offensive force, it does lead to a consistent dominance individually and from the team that is very rare historically. And I already feel that this peak that we're seeing from him right now is better than the peak that we saw from Steph and is better than the peak that we saw from Kobe Bryant. We had this conversation with Hoop Venue. It was a whole lot of fun a few weeks back. And I think that Steph and Jokic are both Tier one offensive players specifically of all time. Both of them are lacking in terms of defensive impact compared to most of the other all time great players. But I prefer Jokicic's offensive peak because of the physical imposition, his dominance there, how he gets wherever he wants on the floor, and then he is both the best touch shot maker and passer that we've seen, So he's just going to create good shots no matter what in any situation, no matter how physical, no matter how much time is on the clock. And I think that Steph's ceiling that he unlocks for an offense with his gravity. His off ball value is so so high, but at the end of the day, he is is subject to a little bit of variance and isn't able to get whatever he wants at will in the same way Yokic's directly, and the floor that Jokic has the consistency because of that game to game, series to series matchup to matchup, he's just inevitable. So I do slightly prefer that. And then versus Kobe, I think that Jokic pretty clearly has a higher offensive peak. There's a massive efficiency gap, and there's a very big playmaking gap too. Even though I think Kobe did a bunch to stress defenses just with his variety as a shot maker, he demanded tons of defensive attention. Jokic has solved offense though in a way that Kobe just hadn't, so I think his peak is already higher offensively. In overall, I don't think Kobe's two way impact is enough to offset Jokic. We've talked about it before. I think he's overrated by accolades there. I think that his defensive impact waxed and waned and he wasn't the most impactful team defender. But when it comes to these all time rankings, I would probably still lean both Steph and Kobe above Jokic. Actually, I think I have Yokic in that thirteen spot, and we do sort of get to a weird place where it's like I value peak over longevity, and so if I just feel flat out Jokic has done something in this two year stretch that is more impressive than anything that Stephan Kobe did, I think he has reached a higher level as a basketball player, it does start to get weird where I'm like, I don't have Yokic higher all time, but I still think there is a breadth of basketball accomplishment and these incredibly high peaks, paired with the longevity replicating those results that Kobe and Steph have, that absolutely matters when we're ranking people all time. For Jokic, this would be his second deep, deep playoff run when we're talking about Finals title, and although I think for the last couple of years before that, it was mostly due to circumstances out of his control that he didn't get there. Like I think he certainly made a strong case for best player in the World both of his MVP seasons, but he didn't have healthy Jamal Murray, he didn't have MPJ, all of those things out of his control. But nevertheless, Steph Curry, you're talking about six straight years where you were looking at Finals runs and he's propelling you there. Kobe, obviously you have a decade apart these stretches of multiple consecutive Finals appearances. So I would probably have Jokic at thirteen. But last year I thought he had one of the ten greatest individual playoff runs we've ever seen. And if he's got two of those top ten spots, that is very, very compelling. But at the end of the day, he is still just twenty eight, and it's really tough to be a top ten player of all time when you just don't have the same length of career, you don't have comparable longevity. Longevity isn't the most important thing to me. Like I talk about preferring MJ over Lebron because of the absolute peak, but MJ sustained that over six deep playoff runs. MJ sustain that over eleven seasons in Chicago at this superhuman level, that's just more than what Jokic has done at this time, And so longevity's more of a difference maker for him right now.

00:08:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I mean, I think it's inevitable that he's going to surpass and going to get there.

00:08:06
Speaker 2: Unless he retires to go race horses. Then I don't know what you do.

00:08:10
Speaker 1: I wouldn't put it past him. Man, you know, how high do you think he can climb?

00:08:17
Speaker 2: Well, we had this conversation recently. I think if he sustains this level for another half decade, and if he decides I actually do want to play basketball into my mid thirties. First of all, I do think his game will age very well because it is so overwhelmingly skill based and strength based, and strength doesn't deteriorate, explosiveness does, so I think he can climb into the top five all time. I think he has the potential to be the best offensive player ever. I already think that his peak, he probably is, But I'm talking about in terms of the overall career, Like, if he just keeps doing this, man, he's gonna propel all time offenses and all time teams. And he's in a very good situation in terms of maintaining this team dominance because I think the supporting cast is so complimentary, so he can do that. I don't think that he can rival MJ and Lebron because of the gap on two way value, but pretty much everybody else I think is on the table if he decides that he wants to chase that. Okay, we got another interesting question here from Ben, which I really like. Which past NBA players before two thousand do you think would excel in today's game? One from each position.

00:09:25
Speaker 1: The first guy that came to mind when I think of any point guard, and I know this is pre two thousand, but it's two guys. The first is Rod Strickland. I think, with how crafty he was and how nasty he was as a ball handler, I think if you give him today's pace in space, the open environment. Same goes for Allen Iverson. Like Allen Iverson's obviously on a different tier, but I think if you give him a spreadout offense in today's NBA that those two guys would thrive with a lot more space to operate. The two guard I know you're quite fond of him. I think Reggie Miller would be a monster in today's game with how prevalent a three pointer is. Everything he could do off ball, relocating stuff like that. I'm trying to think about underrated guys too, because the first guy that I think about it like small forward is like Larry Bird. But it's like, I mean, Larry would thrive in any yeah, any role ever.

00:10:15
Speaker 2: I have a full team. If you want me to buy you a little bit of.

00:10:17
Speaker 1: Time, yeah, I think about this a lot.

00:10:20
Speaker 2: So I've done my ahead of their time all two thousands team, and there's a lot of good candidates from that range. Andre Kierlanko is an obvious one with his positional versatility is playmaking as a forward. Rashid Wallace spacing the floor, good defensive big pages, Do Yakovich, big shooting wing, Gilbert Arenas with his volume of three point attempts and free throw attempts, Kevin Martin. There's lots of good guys from the two thousands, but if we're going before then, I mostly focused on the nineties. At point guard, I have Tim Hardaway. I think, first of all, his ball handling was very much just unbelievable in his time. I mean a lot of people consider him like the father of the over certainly with that sort of speed and dynamism, really good playmaker. But it is the pace with which he played, especially in those run TMC Warriors years. And then the volume three point shooting I think would translate very well to today's NBA. And I think that we see smaller guards thriving more today than ever before, so I think that he would benefit from that. At the two I have Reggie. It's just a no brainer. The volume shooting, the appreciation that the NBA community has now for the off ball value of a player like Reggie, I think he would rack up more accolades in this era for that reason alone, his efficiency also would be more appreciated, just super ahead of his time. Offensively, you mentioned Larry of course, the playmaking, the shooting at that size. Even though there are some aspects of his game that are throwback in their nature, there also are aspects that feel ahead of their time, and some things just translate right. Physicality translates, feel, basketball IQ translates, and Larry had all of that. I'll go with the sort of a layery light debt left Shremp. I think that debt left Shremp just when you're thinking again about six ' ten playmaking forward who could shoot that is a more common archetype in today's NBA. It's something that I think we just have a better understanding of how to tap into with modern spacing and the overall skill development of some of those bigger guys power forward. One of my favorite players of the nineteen nineties I have Aunt Mason. I think very much forecasted what we would come to expect from some undersized bigs of the last decade. And he wasn't like Draymond undersized. He's six 's eight, but very stout strong. Twoin fifty elite positional rebounder, so you weren't losing value on the glass even if he was your four or five in some situations. Very good ball handler for that size, fluid ball handler, fluid mover overall, really good playmaker. Very solid mid range shooter in the mid forties from ten to sixteen feet in his career from we have the tracking data and on a small sample size, over fifty percent from sixteen feet to the three point line. And he could defend multiple positions. So I just think if you're looking at modern small ball lineups, he would be an ideal guy to have in those situations. And then at center, I went with Jack Sikma. I thought about going with a Sabonus or a devots here playmaking bigs who were starting to stretch the floor, we're taking a couple threes a game, but I ended up going with Sigma just because he was doing it before those guys. And there have been great passing bigs back to the sixties and the seventies. You have Russell and Wilt and Sam Lacey and Alvin Adams and Bill Walton, of course, all these guys, but you combine it with actually taking a couple threes a game and making them. Sigma was kind of the first guy to do that in the late eighties. I also thought about like some just conventional stretch bigs like Sam Perkins, but I think Sigma was ahead of his time in multiple ways in terms of how modern bigs are utilized as like playmaking hubs, and then also with the shooting, whereas Sam Perkins is kind of just like, Hey, this guy's big and he can shoot, isn't that crazy.

00:14:10
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take a couple of Sacramento Kings, I think, and I know they said pre two thousand three.

00:14:14
Speaker 2: Two thousand money, you're not taking Seaweb.

00:14:16
Speaker 1: I can't take Seaweb.

00:14:17
Speaker 2: I can't take He's not me two thousand. I mean he starts pre two thousand, but his most iconic years are early two thousands with the kid.

00:14:22
Speaker 1: I can't take Brad Miller. Man, that's messed up.

00:14:26
Speaker 2: You were gonna take Brad Miller.

00:14:27
Speaker 1: Dude, Brad Miller had the splick on him. Man, that's what they don't get.

00:14:30
Speaker 2: Memeto Core better, Mimeto Core. There's a guy we should shout out as ahead of his team.

00:14:35
Speaker 1: Actually, Andre Kirolinko is not a bad pick. Either he's probably the post boy. I mean, he'd be a monster. Oh my god, today's legu Dude. That one stat that we did with Wemby still blows my mind. It's one of my favorite ever, the fact that there's only three guys to average four point eight stocks per game steals plus blocks per game since two thousand and it's Wemby, Ben Wallace and Andre Kirilenko of all people.

00:14:56
Speaker 2: Dude, sir, it's not even surprising. I mean, he's one of the great d defensive playmakers ever. Just an absolute menace. Bro I tweeted out a stat recently, the Jazz record during his three year peak when he played versus when he didn't. They were an over five hundred team when he played, and I want to say they were like fourteen and forty eight with something when he didn't. Like his value is on off numbers from those years. He was just doing everything at such a high level. I love AK forty seven, but not pre two thousands.

00:15:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was thinking about everyone else. Want to shout out, I think Chris Mullen would great game in today's I mean, just just shoot from everywhere on the floor well rounded. It's interesting though, man, because two, I'm trying to think about other big men that we could go with. And that's the real crazy thing about big men are just so much more skilled now, man, Like it's legitimately ridiculous. Like I'm trying to think about any guy that's not just a straight up rim protector or play finisher and at archets just super rare, you know. I mean, if you want to shout out Bill Walton, if you want to shout out Alvin Adams, any of those guys who were you know, skilled passing big men two could shoot a little bit. That archetype super rare. That's why I mentioned Seaweb because I mean, how you think about just well rounded guys, There's not a lot of archetypes like that. Man.

00:16:20
Speaker 2: No, I love Seaweb. I'm a big Seaweb guy. I think the fact that they kept him out of the Hall for as long as they did, with how lenient the NBA normally is or the Basketball Hall of Fame stupid. Man. I love Seawb. I love passing bigs in general, and he is one of the best. Okay. Daniel Olsen asks what is Anthony Edwards ceiling as a player and realistically Are the Wolves better off if they just stay in the three seed position in the West when you look at playoff matchups.

00:16:49
Speaker 1: No, I don't if the Timberwolves can somehow, I think they need to climb to two. I just don't want to take on Dallas in the first round. I think that's a tough matchup for anybody. I want to say this too, I thought Minnesota's boat was sunk the second that Karl Anthony Towns got hurt. I don't know Man, Anthony Edwards, the fight that this team has in them. The it just got a lot of dog man. The Timberwls play super hard, and so I think a first round matchup against anybody playing Minnesota is going to be a tough out, like Minnesota is going to grind them out. Man and Anthony Edwards could go superhuman. So I think Minnesota has a real fighting chance against anybody that they run into out West. But I wouldn't want to run into Dallas. I would much rather match up against Phoenix. I think Minnesota it's gonna be a real interesting battle. I mean, it is pure offense versus pure defense, and I think that's gonna be a fun battle to watch. I would much rather Minnesota climb to the two seed. I wouldn't want to take on Dallas in the first round, but Ann Stealing is a player. I think Ant could be the best player in the world one day. Now that being said, if Victor win bin ye, I'm a sinds as fast as I think that Wenby is going to ascend. Anthony Edwards may never hold that throne, but I think he could be the best American player in all of basketball for sure, and face of the league wise, personality wise, Ant checks all the boxes. The one thing that's just so remarkable. I was talking about about this with friend of the Show Michael Donahue a few days ago. Resident Timberwolves fan. Ant might have the craziest balance of any NBA player I've ever watched. We were talking about his dunks in his block in the Pacers game. Every one of those highlights, Carson Anthony Edwards is still going up every one of those highlights, like he hasn't even reached his peak. Like the only thing that stopped him on that Pacers block was him slamming his head into the stanchion. You know, on John Collins he is still elevating, is he is dunking that ball. Like, I think Anthony Edwards could be one of the handful of best basketball players on the planet. The rim pressuring ability. I think the mid range pull up game is going to reach a level where warrants him taking and you know, taking a high volume of those shots. I think that's going to translate to three. He's just a total package. I think when he finally becomes the you know, top notch rim pressure I mean, he's already great, but once he becomes you know, apex Anthony Edwards level, I think it's gonna maximize his playmaking. The ceiling is unlimited. It feels like for Anthony Edwards, I think best American player is expected. I think best player in the world is definitely still a potential, though.

00:19:30
Speaker 2: I expect him to be the best American basketball player. I expect him to win an MVP. I think he very well could win a scoring title. Luka, DONC is just gonna make that really hard to do for the foreseeable future, as will an SGA. But I think there's probably one year where ant is comfortably over thirty and I think he's gonna hit thirty a couple times with just the monstrous production we're seeing across the league right now, and if it weren't for Wemby, I would say that I can see him being the best player in the world someday. But when we're talking about his ceiling, he should be a top three player at some point. There is just such a rare combination of downhill force and finishing ability. I've mentioned this before, but NBA University would tweet out these graphics that basically talks about like shot quality and then finishing ability, and would consistently be an F in rim shot quality and an A plus and rim finishing like it just doesn't matter who's in front of him. He is so strong, he's so bouncy, he's so agile, He's going to find a way to finish around the rim. And then he has improved as a pull up shooter. He's just not nearly good enough there yet to be the consistent superstar that some people want to make him out to be because of I think what they see in his future, because of I think the Timberwolves team success, which is awesome, but a lot of that is about a great team defense. And at the end of the day, right now, there are thirty nine guys taking six more pull up jumpers per game. Ant is in the bottom five an effective field goal percentage. It's not so much about the threes. He shoots fine on pull up threes. It's more about when he does go to that mid range game. He just is still lacking there and really struggles with efficiency. So maybe that develops more down the line. That's been a consistent issue for Ant since he was a prospect, the midrange game and the floater touch, that overall intermediate game. But what he can do as a rim pressure and a flamethrower with these pull up threes alone is so deadly, and it sets him up for these monstrous stretches like what we've seen both times he's been in the playoffs. You mentioned these last four games without Karl Anthony talons. He's over thirty two, eight and six on really good efficiency with some super impressive defensive moments. And that's the other thing. If Ant fully dials in defensively, if he decides at some point in his career, I want to make all defense. I think that he's capable of it. I think he has such a strong base. He's such a good lateral mover. He can really disrupt people with his bounce as a shop blocking guard. He just has all the tools. He has all the tools to be a dominant force in this league except for maybe that high end playmaking and intermediate shot making. But he's improved as a playmaker, and I think he's a guy who will average probably close to seven assists a game in his prime, just because of what you mentioned, the rim pressure element, and once he can consistently make the right reads there, it doesn't have to be super high level stuff, just the basic stuff. He'll be a very impactful playmaker. So I love and I think that people want to elevate him to being the face of the league right now and to being a clear top ten player, and I just don't think he's there yet. But he's twenty two years old, he is ahead of schedule, and he is one of the most special players in the league today.

00:22:44
Speaker 1: And he's just got stupid supreme confidence. Man, it's awesome.

00:22:47
Speaker 2: Oh, he sure does. Thinks he's the best athlete in the world at every sport.

00:22:50
Speaker 1: In the In the one interview, somebody asks him, they were like, do you think prime Michael Jordan could guard you? And then the camera pans over to him. Hell no, Anthony Edwards is is awesome. Man.

00:23:03
Speaker 2: Did you see his reaction after Oh you see him with the TV guy that.

00:23:08
Speaker 1: Brought yeah little boy, little as a boy. Yeah.

00:23:12
Speaker 2: The TV brodcasts are just sitting there smiling, like putting the mic up to it. That was funny.

00:23:18
Speaker 1: I loved it. Well that's my thing. Man, Do you want ant and not be himself? And is the most himself guy in the league. It's just there's no act, there's no He's just him. And that's what I love Aunt for. Man, there's no filter.

00:23:31
Speaker 2: I love it. I love everything about it.

00:23:35
Speaker 1: I love his birthday. I love his birthday. Man.

00:23:37
Speaker 2: Logan and Ant are the exact same age. We don't know down to the minute, but down to the day and the year. So they will forever be tied because of that. Okay, As Burgess asks, out of the current NBA Western Conference playing teams, who do you see making the furthest playoff run? Yeah?

00:23:56
Speaker 1: So the current playing teams or the Phoenix Suns, the Sacramento the LA Lakers, and the Golden State Warriors. I'd love to come on here and tell you that my Sacramento Kings are gonna go do some damage this year in the playoffs. I don't anticipate it. If I had to pick a team, I would pick the Los Angeles Lakers. I picked the LA Lakers to win the title preseason. I anticipated a lot of moves at the deadline that didn't really happen. But some things have gone well. The Angela Russell's been playing his tail off and shooting the hell out of the pill been playing a lot better. Austin Reeves has been doing his thing, And ultimately, the Lakers have two stars that I can bank on. And the biggest thing about them is, you know, it's their biggest advantage and sometimes it's their biggest disadvantage. The fact that Anthony Davis are that Anthony Davis can disappear for a game with his shooting, or the fact that Lebron can take a night off. That's their greatest weapon though, the fact that they have two of those guys that can just walk into twenty five certain nights. But I also think the Lakers are really well equipped with stand off nights from both of those guys. When you have two shot makers the quality of Reeves and di'angelo Russell, those both are subject to a lot of criticism. You know, you're in the limelight, you're under a microscope then in LA. But they're both really solid and they are both imperative to this team making a deep run. And along with that, along with having guys that can help float the ship when ad or Lebron or not wanting to take over or stuff like that, there's really big They got great size. And I've mentioned this in the past, but last year, Carson, when the Lakers didn't want to compete in the game, they just say, all right, man, we'll just go out and win tomorrow. And when the Lakers are locked in and engaged, and I hate always putting that caveat with the Lakers. When the Lakers are locked in and engaged, they are a good basketball team. It is just about getting there. Unfortunately, that's what I'm banking on. But that's why I think the Lakers are most well equipped to do it. The Suns, to me, make too many mistakes offensively, turnovers wise, and they are not a good defense. I know the ceiling that they have with three stars like Bill Booker and Durant, they commit too many turnovers. Their defense is too poorous, So for them, I don't anticipate a deep run. Golden State has one supreme offensive creator, Stephen Curry. I don't trust the guys around him to make things happen. And then Sacramento two really dynamic scoring guards and Dearon Fox and Malik Monk, and they've got shooting on the wings, and they've got a dynamic offense. But I think the limiting factor is once again, demonte Sabonis and what he does to not stretch the floor to get kind of beaten by other teams. Offensively, He's not a good defender on the interior. He's not a good defender point blank. So I think all of those teams just have really major flaws, and LA just has the least out of the bunch, and they got two stars. So unfortunately, I think it's the Lakers. If there's a team that is gonna go on a crazy upset run out of the play in, it's gonna be LA in my opinion.

00:26:52
Speaker 2: Well, how are you saying unfortunately you don't want to pick?

00:26:56
Speaker 1: Yeah? Man? I want to come on here and go yeah, man, Golden State's gonna make a playoff. They're gonna go on some crazy.

00:27:01
Speaker 2: Run up on the Lakers. You went from their biggest fan. Yes, sad to see. I think it's LA two. When I look at some of the other teams, nobody can match LA's two way ceiling, and nobody can match their superstar quotient in the way that they compliment each other and in the way that they physically dominate in a playoff environment. Like Katie and Book are on the same level in terms of talent, but it's more redundant. And I know that when I get dialed in Lebron, he is going to get where he wants on the floor and bully the opposing team. And when I get dialed in Ad, he can be the best defensive player on the planet and swallow up boards and dominate on the interior and kill you with his touch shot making. And there's just such a complimentary dynamic there that has made the Lakers a scary team for years, even when the supporting cast sucks. It's the reason that they were able to go to the Western Conference Finals last year. Obviously certain guys stepped up in supporting cast, but it is ultimately that Lebron ad duo in what they unlock. When I look at the Suns, I just have too many issues defensively, they are far too inconsistent. They're twenty first in defensive rating over their last fifteen games. And when I think about how any of these teams is going to pull off an upset, if you're looking at Phoenix, let's say they match up with the Thunder or the Clippers. Well, it's probably not gonna be the Clippers now since they've been sliding. But if it's the Thunder, that is going to be a skilled team versus skilled team battle. But ultimately, I think okay See has more quality players, and I think they have a much higher defensive ceiling that they can reach, So Phoenix doesn't have a clear advantage there. And we know that although they're very skilled offensively, we can't call them a better offense because of their shot diet, their reliance on the tough pull up jumper, specifically for mid range, and the fact that there is a ceiling on that. And also there's gonna be some inconsistency because you don't have those automatic routes to easy offense. Whereas if I look at how LA matches up against a team like ok See, okay See maybe a better basketball team, LA is a terrifying matchup because they are way bigger and stronger in the front court. They could easily have two of the three best players in that series by a comfortable margin. I love Chad and Jada, but I mean, if Adi and Lebron play up to their potential, there is a massive, massive gap there, and so the rebounding advantage, the physical advantage, that superstar quotion. I can really see LA upsetting a team like Okay see in a way that is much harder for me to see. With Phoenix and then the Warriors, I really like what they've been doing. I think the offensively, they're too reliant on Steph as their lone high end creator, and ultimately they don't have the same size and physicality advantages that like in LA does and Sacramento. They have their moments, but I don't think the two way ceiling is comparable to what an LA can do. And again, I think the superstar factor is very much in LA's favor there. Okay, e cole I asks, do you think anyone will eclipse forty points per game in a season over the next decade or so? If so, name who you think is most likely.

00:30:13
Speaker 1: Luca.

00:30:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, but do you think it's gonna happen.

00:30:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see Luca doing you. Honestly, if Kyrie, I think it would take maybe an injury to Kyrie or it would take. The thing is just the volume of shots you would have to take. Yeah, and because of Luca's ability to go nuclear from behind the arc or maybe Sga. And the only thing that's really limiting Sga in my opinion is the fact that he takes so many mid range jumpers. You need a guy who can get hot from behind the arc, who can just go flamethrower mode from deep and Luca is lucas unaffected by ball pressure. He's really unaffected by hands in his face when he's shooting. It doesn't really make any sense. I think Jokic could do it if he wanted, but I don't think he's ever ever gonna take enough shots to do it. So I mean my two guys would be would be Luca and it would be Sga.

00:31:07
Speaker 2: No mention of Embiid, who has come the closest. I mean, come on, that's disrespect.

00:31:16
Speaker 1: Is Embiid gonna play enough games to qualify for the league leader board?

00:31:19
Speaker 2: I mean he has recently years until this season.

00:31:22
Speaker 1: I guess Embiid has a shot, but I wouldn't. I would definitely take guys who are more perimeter oriented, more ball dominant, guys who just get a ton more touches on the perimeter. I would go Luca Sga and then probably Embiid. Yeah. I don't know if there's anybody else even on my radar.

00:31:40
Speaker 2: So I don't think this is gonna happen, first of all, because I think we're reaching a point with the league where there are going to be changes made in terms of rules to favor the defense. I just think there has to be this upward trajectory and just continual leap year after a year in offensive efficiency can't continue forever. That's not how the league works. Like things may generally trend upwards, but they ebb and flow. You go from the high flying eighties more freedom of movement to the very physical, defensively oriented slow nineties in early two thousands. Then things open up again and eventually there's gonna be a bit of a correction because what we're seeing dude offensive rating league wide average in twenty fifteen, when the Warriors have their first title season right, which you can sort of pinpoint is the beginning of the offensive evolution was one oh five point six. Then you fast forward to twenty nineteen, it's all the way up to one ten point four. You fast forward all the way to twenty twenty four, it's one fifteen point five. So we've seen like a ten percent increase in offensive efficiency league wide over these last nine years, which is massive. Like, just to keep things in perspective, we've never seen the league offensive rating average hit one ten, But I talk about the EBB and flow. It was one oh eight in nineteen eighty four, and then it was one oh six, as I mentioned in twenty fifteen. So this sort of upward trajectory, it's never happened before, really, and I think at some point it is going to be dialed back by the rules. So if it were to continue, somebody could average forty a game. I don't think that's gonna happen. And I also think Luca is going to eventually adjust to a play style where he doesn't has where he doesn't have such an overwhelming responsibility. I just don't think it's sustainable for him to be trying to not just score thirty five a night, but also have this sort of crazy playmaking load. James Harden did it for a couple years, but you don't do it forever. SGA up to this point just doesn't explode as a score like he is so consistent, but he's never scored fifty in his career. I think because of the fact that he doesn't have those sort of explosions from beyond the arc. So it's a very high floor, but not necessarily the highest ceiling scoring. So I couldn't see him get to forty. Embiid again came the closest. He was dropping thirty five a night, but I still think forty is just too much. I mean, that's absolutely absurd. We haven't seen it since Wilt Chamberlain. Nobody else has ever done it in the history of the sports, and I think it's going to stay that way, at least for a while.

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00:35:22
Speaker 2: Okay, Carson Williams asks can you give an in depth explanation of defense versus defensive playmaking? Is part one of his questions, logan you want to quickly take.

00:35:32
Speaker 1: That, Yeah, the distinction I would make is. I mean, there's so much that goes into defense, specifically outside of playmaking. It's positioning, its instincts, it's anticipation of where the ball is going to be. Like, you can be a good defender but not be a great defensive playmaker. Defensive playmaking is steals if it's on ball, if that's off ball, if it's blocking a shot, And you can be a great defensive playmaker and be a bad defender, Like, I think it's way more important to be positionally sound, to know how to guard and switch out of a pick and roll, how to help, how to rotate where you need to be who's hot. There's a lot that goes into defense, man, and one lapse equals an open shot, you know what I mean. So it's a lot harder to do that. The great ones make it go hand in hand, right, Like, you can't call Wemby just a great defensive playmaker. He's just a great defender, period, Like he's also positionally sound and instinctual and anticipatory along with being a great playmaker. I'd say chet Holmgren two, Like you can mend it, but there is a there's definitely a big difference. Man, you can have one without the other.

00:36:42
Speaker 2: Well, I think most of the time great defensive playmakers.

00:36:46
Speaker 1: It does normally go hand in hand.

00:36:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a strong, strong correlation, right. That probably means you have great physical tools. That probably means you have really good instincts. That probably means you have good timing. But there's not a one to one correlation. And just specifically, log I think you laid out the difference in terms of terminology. Defense involves everything that doesn't show up on a stat sheet. It's your screen navigation, it's your positional instincts. There are so many different things. It's your box outs. Defensive playmaking is specifically those big spell splashy plays, steals and blocks.

00:37:18
Speaker 1: I would also just say effort. I mean I would say, yeah, yeah, of course, eighty to ninety percent of defense is just how hard can you go?

00:37:25
Speaker 2: You know? Yeah, that's what she said. Anyways. Another question from Carson Williams, what current NBA players that aren't currently top twenty five all time have the potential to end up top twenty five all time.

00:37:38
Speaker 1: I can't remember if he was in my top twenty five. The first guy that comes to mind is Janis. I think Janis was in my team definitely was. Yeah, I think Janis was. It will be y Honess depending on where you have him.

00:37:52
Speaker 2: I think I think everybody has Yianni's top twenty five.

00:37:54
Speaker 1: I think shake Gilges Alexander has an opportunity to do it. I think Anthony Edwards has an opportunity to do it. I think Victor Winbanyama has an opportunity to do it. Other big stars in the league. I probably wouldn't take a guy like Jason Tatum. I think Tatum's just too flawed as a basketball player. I think Luca has an opportunity to do it. That's and you know what, I'm not going to count him out. Joel Embiid definitely has an opportunity to do it, dude, with his regular season success and if he does climb the mountain. For me, I've seen it too many times. I'm scarred. I have too many red flags with Embiid. Just the fact that I've seen him get injured so many times, the fact that I've seen him collapse in the playoffs. I probably wouldn't predict it, and I don't know if I'd ever predict Embiid ever winning the title or climbing the hump again. I've just seen it too many times, but he definitely has an opportunity. So I'd say Sga, Luca and Wemby and potentially Embiid.

00:38:58
Speaker 2: I think that's a good list. Two guys who I expect to end up on this list who are not already there. Out of active guys who are already there. For my list, we have Jannis. I guess I might as well reout exactly where I had them. I have my top twenty five in front of me at twenty. Jokic, as we already discussed at sixteen. Oh CP three I should have mentioned, is still an active player. I have him at twenty two, and then we have a staph at number ten I believe, and Lebron at number two. So those are the guys who are already there. Luke and Wemby I think are such all time standout talents. Wenby we've talked about. I think has the clear potential to be the best defensive player ever and a dominant offensive force. Luca is on the trajectory to be one of the absolute greatest offensive players that we've ever seen. And I think both of them are so overwhelmingly great that if they don't win titles, I will be shocked. I will be very surprised. They just feel like the level of guys where at some point they won't be denied, like we're tal talking about with Jokic right now, like there's just a special tier that you can reach outside of that. I think Embiid is the one who has already put together the sort of regular season resume with the MVP and with multiple top three MVP finishes. I probably wouldn't pick it right now because I think there are other players who see him in terms of their current peak, with Jokic and Giannis and Luca, and I think there are teams that are in better situations for the foreseeable future when you're talking about Denver, when you're talking about Boston being tiers above Philly not just because of Jokic over Embiid, but because of the supporting cast as well. And then I do worry about Embiid's health, I really do when you're talking about climbing to this stature. But he clearly has the basketball ability if he sustains regular season embid over a playoff run, and Philly has a really good supporting cast around him in a couple of years if they make proper use of the assets they got back from the Harden deal. He has the potential. SGA, I love, I love, Top twenty five all time is really really tough. At number twenty five. I have Dwayne Wade, who they have some similarities just in terms of being these great downhill guards, really good playmakers too, plus defenders, and I think SGA does have that sort of individual ceiling. But d Wade had like one of the great playoff runs we've ever seen in two thousand and six, so SGA would probably have to have a moment a run like that. Tatum, I don't know, man, He's not on that level as an individual force in my opinion right now. And then all the other young guys, as much as I may love him, book no, he's never gonna have that sort of two way dominance. I just can't see him like imposing himself over the course of a playoff run, like you have to to enter these sort of conversations. And then there's a couple guys who like aren't too far out but are further in their careers, so they would have to have another like really defining moment like a Kawhi.

00:42:06
Speaker 1: Could I give you a hype? Wow? I forgot Kawhi wasn't in your top twenty five? Was he?

00:42:12
Speaker 2: Kauhi' is not in my top twenty five. He's one of the first handful of guys off. I just think, unfortunately we have seen too many years cut short. We haven't seen enough of peak Kawhi when it matters most. I think his peak is clearly top twenty five, probably top fifteen.

00:42:28
Speaker 1: Let me give you a hypothetical. If Damian Lillard goes in a run this year with Jannis averages twenty eight points per game, seven assists, as you know, a really good run goes crazy twenty five plus seven plus assists per game efficiently, does that get him close?

00:42:46
Speaker 2: Doesn't get him into the top twenty five, Maybe gets him in the top forty something. I would have to think about the particulars, but he'd still be comfortably outside. He hasn't done enough as a number one, He hasn't reached a high peak individually, and he would still be the second best player on this team no matter how well he plays.

00:43:05
Speaker 1: Do you think Zion has more room to grow?

00:43:08
Speaker 2: Boy? I would need to see a lot from Zion to talk about him being in top twenty five sort of ceilings starting with his health and availability consistently. But I love Zion. You got to prove to me you're a top ten player in the league before I can start talking about you as top twenty five all time, or at least be like Wemby where it's like very clear path imminently are going to be there. Top twenty five all time is crazy, bro, Yeah, I have Dwayne Wade. Dwayne Wade, that is an insane basketball yeah, man, So it's a very high bar. I think there's probably only a couple dudes in the league right now who will make that list, and I would say Luke and Wenby, but there's a couple other who have outside shots but legitimate shots. Okay, Panthers suck again. As sort of a two parter here part one. Why does Logan have more swag?

00:43:56
Speaker 1: I don't know, man.

00:43:57
Speaker 2: Do I got the white on white on today? That's pretty tough? Uh No, go ahead, man, answer why do you have more swag?

00:44:05
Speaker 1: He the born witted or you're not. Man, it's pretty simple.

00:44:08
Speaker 2: That tells you all there is right there, bro. That's tough as hell. At the end of the day, though, he's all in six in the trivia gauntlet.

00:44:14
Speaker 1: I'm going seven.

00:44:16
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't want to spoil.

00:44:19
Speaker 1: Oh I forgot my bad guys. No, it's really competitive. It comes down to the wire. I might, I might eke this one out.

00:44:25
Speaker 2: He doesn't even know if he wins or loses. He's just focused on how swaggy he is. Okay, Part two of Panthers Suck Again's question, though, is related to another question we got, so we're gonna sort of blend them together. They asked how good was Piston's Blake Griffin, but Dunks and Hoops asked Amari Stodomaier or Blake griffin peaking career. Apparently the people want to know about prime Blake Griffin, So uh we will answer logan, what are your takes, dude?

00:44:52
Speaker 1: Piston's Blake Griffin was so much fun, dude. He was ball handling, claymaking, being the lead guy like it. You know, it wasn't never going to lead to playoff success, but who cares, dude.

00:45:02
Speaker 2: It was awesome.

00:45:03
Speaker 1: It was electric. The city needed a savior and Blake Griffin was there. Man. Yeah, I mean it really all came together that year. Man. The jump shooting. It was fun. It was a ton of fun. I wish that had lasted a little longer. Many Peak versus Career with the MARII is interesting because Blake was up there. Man, People forget I mean, I believe Blake was. Was he the top five MVP one year or something? I mean Blake was up there. Four. Yeah, it's tough because I feel like it's a straight up rim runner and pressuring threat. I'd probably lean a Maury, although it's really close, because Blake was a freak at his APEX two. Both of them had the benefit of playing alongside all time great point guards and Chris Paul and Steve Nash, so you got guys who could feed him and put them where it needed to be. I'd probably say Amari because of the defensive impact. But I also think Blake has play making impact two that is underrated, where he could play make out of the short role and he's an athletic free two. I would probably just go a Mari because I think his defensive impact went a little deeper than Blake's. Because Amari anchored the five spot. That's really close, though, Man, I'd say career. I'd probably take Blake's for the longevity, but Pee, I'd probably take a Mari.

00:46:22
Speaker 2: I don't think there's enough needle moving longevity between the two. It's funny in terms of just like bottom line accolades, they look so similar. Both Rookie of the Year, both six time All Star, both five time LBA. Mm hmm. It is worth noting. I don't like using all NBA as like a precise measure of evaluating the caliber of a player, because I think sometimes voters just get it wrong. But Amare is one time first team, four time second team, whereas Blake is I think three times second, two time third teams. So Omare's all nbas are of a little bit of a higher caliber. And it is so impressive that he did that in one of the most stacked front court eras ever, specifically in terms of bigs, I mean every single year in the front court, you are going up against Dirk kg, Tim Duncan. If you're listened at the five, you're going up against Shack Dwight Howard once he comes into his own two thousands, lots of great power to dude paw Gasol. I would take Amare. I think that he was just a better offensive player first of all at his peak. You're right, they both had the luxury of playing with these great point guards and specifically pick and roll maestros, two of the great game managers that we've ever seen. And I don't mean that in the football sense where it's sort of a dig I just mean these are guys who both really threatened defenses with their quickness and with their scoring ability, but also had phenomenal court mapping sense of where everybody was all time great pure passers, and so I think both players were elevated by that. And the one against Amre is you look at like two thousand and six, he misses the whole year, but you still have Steve Nash running the show. They win fifty four games, They were top two offense in basketball. That clearly tells you who was the most valuable player in that equation, and it was Steve Nash. But I do think Amari was more skilled. If you look at his production as an isolation scorer and post up scorer, I just think he had more game there than Blake. He was a much better mid range shooter. Blake ends up developing this three point game, but if you're talking about interior and mid range touch. Amari was just much more effective there. And he was so so nimble at his peak. I mean a great pure athlete, absolutely, and he had some power and he had vertical pop, but his body control. You look at his hop steps out of the post like he was just in control. And I would say a more dynamic, skilled interior scorer than Blake and more proven in those one on one settings on top of what both these guys could and picking rolling out in transition and whatnot. And Mi was much more efficient throughout his prime lead. There's a year where he leads the league in true shooting percentage. He's consistently more than a handful of points above league average. Blake wasn't quite that efficient. And then I do think he's a better pure rim protector. Neither of these guys are bringing you a bunch of value defensively. It was sort of an undoing for both of them. But Amara was the better rimp protector, was capable at least of holding down the five in a way that Blake never was. Blake's advantages the playmaking, I agree with you one hundred percent. He had that knack from when he came into the league, and he harnessed it and harnessed it and got to the point in Detroit where he's not the same explosive athlete, but he's basically like a big wing like he is ball handling. He's taken seven threes a game and making thirty six percent of them and playmaking at high volume. That wasn't the best blake because when he was in LA he just had different athletic advantages. But it was really impressive that for that twenty nineteen season he was able to still have value when he was so clearly over the hill in terms of his athletic peak. It didn't last long, but it was really impressive while it did. But ultimately, both these guys are defined by the years where they were super imposing interior finishes, really good athletes, And I just think Amari was more efficient, more skilled, and a better defensive player, so I would take him. Okay, rob asks true or false. Scotty Barnes and Wemby will parallel Lebron and KDE, but this time the KD variant Wemby will be triumphant not false. Yeah.

00:50:39
Speaker 1: I love Scotty Barnes. I'm a big Scotty Barnes guy. I think Scotty even has more room to grow. We've seen his touch improve, his pull up shooting improve, his three point shooting improve, and that was the big question mark. Scotty looked like he had plateaued in his second season. It kind of hit his head a little bit on what he could be as an offensive player. And we've seen this season that's not the case. And I do think the Raptors if they put more shooting and more scoring and more skilled guys around Scotty, you spread that offense out even more. I think it will allow Scotty to impose his you know, physical advantages on guys a little more. He checks a lot of boxes. But I'm definitely not anticipating Scotty Barnes becoming lebron and that time soon.

00:51:18
Speaker 2: What a few reasons, Okay, name one.

00:51:23
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, dude, Like there's just the coordination, the burst, the everything. Man. Scotty's cool. Scotty's gonna be a very good player. I question if he's a one or a two on a great team, but Scotty's a great player. Wemby, on the other hand, I do expect I expect Wenby to get like multiple rings, multiple rings, multiple championships multiple from Scotty.

00:51:49
Speaker 2: Are you not expecting the same.

00:51:52
Speaker 1: Finals appearance? Maybe if he's lucky.

00:51:56
Speaker 2: I don't know what you're watching. Man. The only problem with this question is why they think the Kadie variant parenthesis Wemby will be triumphant Scottie Barnes supremacy all the way to the moon and back. Baby. No, I don't know if this is a classic prank, but this is an absolutely insane question. Scotty Barnes in no way parallels Lebron James. There's really not much more that needs to be said about that.

00:52:23
Speaker 1: Have you seen that one clip of Scotty missing that clutch free throw and just screaming, Yeah, I love that clip.

00:52:29
Speaker 2: He's got some big personality, that guy. Also, I think that calling Wemby a Kadie variant a bit misrepresentative. I've talked about this before, comparing any big guy who's skilled and can shoot to Kevin Durant. Wemby is probably gonna be the greatest defensive player that we've ever seen. And he is also seven foot four, which means, yes, he has these great moments of perimeter skill, but he is most valuable when you just throw him the ball up anywhere around the rim because he is bigger and longer and more athletic than everybody else. That's not like Kevin Durant. And the gap between Wemby and Scottie Barnes is about the gap between here and the sun. I mean there's a big, big, big gap there. Okay, noodles with maybe my favorite question of all time, just how good is Malik Monk right now? And what will his money look like this free agency?

00:53:22
Speaker 1: Malik Monk is excellent. He's an elite pick and roll scorer. He's got great burst off the dribble, great change in pace is Carson Brebber tells it as the prophecy foretold in his draft class. He's a natural born killer man. He is a natural bucket and you really cannot teach bucket getting like Malik is just one of those guys that I mean, you saw in the playoffs last year, You've seen it all year this year. When Malik gets hot, like it's just he gets in that zone and there's not a whole lot you can do to stop him. I'd probably give Malik twenty plus million, twenty five million maybe per year as a six man or as a two guard starting somewhere. I hope the Kings can retain him. He is. I cannot stress how imperative Malik Monk is to this team winning games alongside Fox off the bench in non Fox minutes, you know, and floating the ship. The Kings need to keep Malik like. He is imperative to this team winning games, and he's an awesome bucket getter. I would. I think Malik's gonna get a bag this offseason, and it is going to be very, very well deserved. But I really hope that he stays in Sacramento. Man. I think there's a good spot for him. I think he's a really meaningful contributor on this team and he's probably six Man of the Year. Malik's awesome. Man, Malik is. Malik is awesome, and I really hope they can hold on to him. I mean, he's improved as a playmaker two dude. That's what's such a good place. Malik's just Maleak's the total package now and if he was a little more consistent, he'd be a star. But he's not. But Malak's awesome. I hope that the Kings can retain him.

00:54:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he probably is going to demand somewhere in the nameighborhood of twenty million a year, and that's what I would be comfortable giving him. I'm the world's biggest Malik Monk stan and Malik Monk Truther bro ever since we started this show way back when there would be a stretch every year where I would be spreading the Milik Month gospel, and it's paying off big time now. Man, he's just a hooper. He's absolutely six Man of the Year in my opinion, and he does have a special combination of traits right. He has good pace out of pick and roll. He's a really good playmaker. I mean, he's creative, live dribble stuff, got really good feel with his bigs. He's really good at those pocket passes. He's got these creative wrap rounds on the baselines. His driving kick playmaking is good. He's a really good passer and he's taken a leap over the last couple of years, especially this year. But then he's also a good pull up shooter. He's a really good catch and shooter, and he is so quick that he just creates very consistent dribble penetration. And that's what we saw against the Warriors last year. Dude, Like, I know, his efficiency wasn't great, but he was the king second best player. Like he was giving problems to the Warriors because they couldn't stay in front of him. And when he blends that with this dynamic perimeter shooting, he's just an offensive weapon. Now. I don't want to sit here and say that he is some sort of all around star, because I do think there are inconsistencies in terms of what he's gonna bring you defensively. The overall efficiency isn't great, it's pretty average, but when you put him in that spark plug role, he is dynamic and he presents some very problematic matchups for teams who don't have guards quick enough to deal with him and Foxy in tandem. I mean, it's just the fastest backcourt in the league. So I love Malik. I think somebody will probably give him in the neighborhood of twenty million a year this offseason, and I think that is deserved. You just don't want to go above that because ultimately he's either a great sixth man or he's a really good second guard who maybe has to buy in a bit more consistently to the defensive end of the floor if he's like complimenting your lead guard offensively. We have another question for Noodles. Who's the swaggiest NBA white boy of all time?

00:57:09
Speaker 1: Logan, I think the white boy with the most juice is probably Larry Bird and not in like conventional swag, but in like ball swag. Just Hooper, it's probably Bird. If not Bird, I'd probably take Tyler Herro, I'd probably take Birdman, or I'd take a hero is not a bad pick either. I'd also man Bird.

00:57:31
Speaker 2: You don't want to be positively associating with Birdman. Logan, I don't know Man Birdman, No, he did some unsavory things.

00:57:41
Speaker 1: White Chocolate Jason Williams. White chocolate's a good pick too. I mean he's literally nicknamed white chocolate. Chocolate was swaggy Jason Williams for sure. Uh My pick's probably Larry Legend, though Man, there's very like I know, he doesn't have like the conventional like swag, but he's got that unconventional white boy swag.

00:57:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got a gry white swag to him, that's for sure. He's got a hick from French lakes swag. I mean the aura, the lore is incredible with Larry. Honestly, I would probably say Jason Williams. Dude, Jason Williams just had that like park, flashiness and overall aesthetic as a basketball player that simply put, no other white dudes have really had. And I think that's why he's a legend and he's overrated as a basketball player. That's what happens to most dudes who have sick highlight tapes but weren't actually that great play to play at every aspect of the game. That's the Jason Williams story. But still in terms of swag. Also, just white Chocolate is such a great nickname, so he's a good choice. Okay, unhelpful. NBA love this question. Which athlete do y'all think one way more than they deserved but are still praised for their success or maybe vice versa, lost more than they deserved but still gets hate for it. I think the second one we probably talk about more. Who's your answer to the first one?

00:59:00
Speaker 1: One way more than they deserved? Is a very very interesting question, and I don't know. I mean, the only guy that I think about is the most consummate winner in NBA history, and that's Bill Russell. But I'm not going to say that he didn't deserve to win that much of the best defender of an era.

00:59:20
Speaker 2: By the way, NFL is on the table here too, at least in my reading of the.

00:59:23
Speaker 1: Life I had, I hadn't thought about that.

00:59:25
Speaker 2: I've got one.

00:59:27
Speaker 1: If you want my take, it would be Tom Brady.

00:59:29
Speaker 2: WHOA let's hear it, Let's hear it.

00:59:31
Speaker 1: I mean the only reason I say that is we talk.

00:59:34
Speaker 2: Rule cheating to flake Gate, spygate, field goal, merchant, mount running, gay, merchant line, merchant, Bill Belichick, merchant lay it all out there.

00:59:42
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we can talk about Tom Brady and all the things that had to break his way into becoming the Goat. And I don't want to take anything away from him because the games were played and the results are they what they are, That's all that really matters. We can talk about how lucky Brady got till the cows come home. Rob Parker of Fire Sports for the longest time is not called Brady the Goat, but the loat the luckiest of all time. The Patriots cheated, That is not controversial. That is true with Spygate, and what a lot of people forget about spygate two is it wasn't just them recording practices and getting game tape of what they were gonna run game scripts. It was the physical game script. Repeatedly, during apparently every regular season playoff game, Bill Belichick would send some assistant into the opposing team's locker room to find a playsheet of what they were gonna run on the first couple of drives. So cheating, I don't have to. You have deflate gate, you have spygate, you have all of that. And then the luck part, the fact that vine Teri boots home two game winning field goals in the Super Bowl, the fact that Malcolm Butler makes an interception on the goal line, the fact that the Falcons conveniently forgot how to run the freaking football. So a lot of Again, I don't want to take from anybody that won a lot like that, because the games happened, they were played, that's what happened. But when you look at all the external variables and things that happened, a lot had to go his way, and he did have the benefit of playing with a lot of great defenses with one of the greatest coaches of all time. Yeah, it's a head ass answer, but I would probably say either Tom Brady or if you want to do to Tom Brady thing a guy who went by the alias to Tom Brady, Terry Bradshaw won for Super Bowls, and I think Terry played great on the game's biggest age and he didn't cheat. That's something that he's got a leg up over on Tom Brady. But Terry was never Brady level. He was never paid in level, he was never even Montana level. Like you look at how efficient he was, how much he turned the ball over, how much the offense leaned on Frank o'harris. Terry probably gets praised a little too much for winning four Super Bowls on the backs of one of the greatest defenses of all time. But if we're asking this question on who gets probably more credit than they deserve, it's probably Tom Brady.

01:02:03
Speaker 2: Wow Logan Camden Ladies and gentlemen with a scorching hot take, which I don't totally disagree with in the sense that Tom Brady had a lot of things go his way over the course of his career. He first of all, walked into an exceptional organization just considering the fact that Bill Belichick was the coach. Not in terms of the history, but in terms of who was the mastermind for they of his career.

01:02:30
Speaker 1: And they had already gone to a Super Bowl, Woudrew Bledsoe.

01:02:32
Speaker 2: That's true, a handful of years earlier they had, And just the fact that Belichick was the architect of so many great defenses, so consistently, so brilliant on special teams, like the phases of the game that were out of his control were very favorably set up. I also do think sometimes we can overlook what Brady did without always having like the most overwhelmingly talented offensive supporting casts in some of the twenty tens years. Julian Edelman being your number one receiver for a number of years and still leading out some really great offenses is impressive. I'm just not gonna really give an anti Brady take logan. I know that you've been hurt. He's not my favorite, but although he has been fortunate, and that's why, even though it's like, oh my god, this unassailable winning resume seven super Bowls, I don't think we're locked into say Brady is the goat forever, because I think Patrick Mahomes is better than him right now than Brady ever was clearly but I still think Brady over the course of his career is the goat, and I think that he's gonna be top two when Mahomes passes him in terms of the greatness of the career. I was gonna go with Troy Aikman for this question. I thought he was kind of the obvious answer, because it's much easier to find football players here and specifically quarterbacks, than it is basketball players because we have the fundamental attribution Eira with quarterbacks in football, where we always put too much of the blame and too much of the credit on them in a way that we don't due to that extent in basketball, just because oftentimes the quarterback is not the best player on a football team, and yet they are still always going to be given that sort of front billing. That's not the case in basketball. The best player is the best player, like there's very rarely any ambiguity about that. And also, I'm not saying this about Aikman because they won three Super Bowls. But you think about Joe Namath, A lot of people talk about the legend of Joe Namath, how it doesn't necessarily perfectly match up with who he was as a football player. Over the course of his career. You can have a fluke Super Bowl run. You can. You just gotta win three or four games, depending on where you're starting in that playoff field. You can never have a fluke NBA title run. It's just not possible. You have to win sixteen games. That means you're surviving four different series, four different matchups. Because of that fact, I just have a great deal of respect behind basically every NBA title run. Ever, of course some are easier than others, but you can't fluke into them, and whoever your best player is probably had to play pretty darn well. So there are some guys who I think are a little bit overrated, maybe as number ones, but I wouldn't say they didn't deserve it outright. Troy Aikman, I just think clearly was a game manager who had one of the most talented offenses and defenses ever simultaneously, one of the best lines we've ever seen, one of the best receivers in the league, one of the best running backs of all time, and again this dominant collective defense. And so he won three Super Bowls. There's a reason that he makes some Pro Bowls, but he's never even second team all Pro. I mean, you can always play the fun game of like just comparing super average quarterbacks of the twenty first centuries stats to Troy Aikman. And of course passing stats are inflated now compared to what they were, but everybody is surpassing Troy Aikman. I just think he was a guy who was in a really great situation in terms of the opposite side here lost more than they deserved. Think think about a lot of the NBA greats who didn't get a ring, Charles Barkley, Chris Paul, Steve Nash. I'm not gonna say it about Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor, Like, there are a lot of guys who were knocking on the door and aren't necessarily responsible for the fact that their team ultimately didn't get there. They individually played at a very high level and still they didn't have the right circumstances around them enough times. They're guys who you think, Okay, if they were put in these really good situations for a decade, then they could have got it done. But it's like Charles Barkley only has a couple year window with those Suns teams. Nash has the window with the Suns teams offensively but never defensively. Chris Paul, You just think about the various playoff misfortunes, health things going wrong around him. He's playing up to his normal superstar level. It's easy for me to find examples of that.

01:06:53
Speaker 1: On the opposite side, Yeah, those guys are good picks. I'd say James Harden too, And Harden's a lesser extent just because some playoffs he did disappear, but also other times things just didn't break his way. I'd say Kevin Garnett. Sometimes he can get unfairly criticized for not winning before he went to Boston. On the NFL side, I think the guy that is probably the poster boy for the NFL, and this is Dan Marino. And why I say Marino is the fact that I mean every year it's like the Dolphins had. The Dolphins had fifteen seasons to put together a competent defense for Marino, and it's sad in his prime in the stretch after they make the first Super Bowl, the next decade they never did it. And finally towards the end of his career in the late nineties into the early two thousands, when the Dolphins finally put together like a top ten kind of defense. Unfortunately, Dan Marino isn't the same quarterback that he once was and just can't will his team to victory. He suffers a major he was one of the first quarterbacks to come back. I think it was an achilles injury or a major knee injury, and Marino came back from that in nineteen ninety three or ninety four, and you know, just slowly tailed off from there finally when they got the defense right. So I think Marino's a good pick. I'm trying to think of if there's any other. That's the thing with both quarterbacks is unless you're in a really great quarterback era, which is something that is going to happen in this era with Patrick Mahomes, there's gonna be a lot of guys that get walled off. Man. If it's Joe Burrow, if it's Josh Allen, if it's Lamar Jackson, I'm sorry, man. If it's c J. Stroud, if it's Caleb Williams, you know, I don't know. Patrick Mahomes is going to be the Michael Jordan of this NFL generation, where he is stopping some of the great QBS all time. You know, for guys in the twenty tens and two thousands, you thank god Drew Brees got his one because you're dealing with Peyton and Brady and Ben and all these great quarterbacks. Man Philip Rivers, you know, I shit on Philip Rivers a lot. Philip Rivers and Matt Ryan are two of the greats that never got it done, that had great teams, and I think it was you know, I fairly criticize Rivers, but he is a great that didn't get it done. There's a lot of guys to point to, but I think Marino is probably the guy that gets criticized most too, because they all go, oh, he was so good, then why didn't he get a ring? And the NFL is a team sport.

01:09:25
Speaker 2: Man one hundred percent. So is basketball, but it's obviously much more so in the NFL, especially if you are any position other than quarterback. Then it almost becomes silly to like even mention championships because it's like, what the hell man left tackle can heat the guy up in front of him every single time, Like he can't catch passes, he can't throw passes, he can't get stopped on the other side of the ball. It's just very different, and that's why viewing things through the ring prism is always going to be a flawed approach, especially with the NFL. Okay, Charlie asks thoughts on the Jets offs and what players they should target at pick ten. We're into NFL territory now for the offseason.

01:10:07
Speaker 1: I've liked what the Jets have done. I think they're just you're just crossing your fingers, your fingers to stay healthy. Tyron Smith has not played a full season in a while. You know, I like Tyron Smith. I'm glad they have I think it's Morgan Moses on the other side. Okay, cool, Damn bro said, Okay, cool, they're pretty old. You know, you're bringing in Mike Williams. Mike Williams to struggle to stay healthy. Aaron Rodgers is coming off an achilles tear. And to my knowledge, the NFL is not doing anything about these turf stadiums and these turfs. Don't be mad when MetLife claims fourteen acls next year, because it's inevitable it's going to happen. That's what happens at MetLife. It's why the Jets and Giants can't stay freaking healthy. News flash, guys, maybe we should put aside some money so the guys that we put money into and generate money for our team, Maybe we should put some money into the field that they play on so they're safe and they can be healthy and our product can be better. Just an idea, Just an idea, guys. Let's go grow some grass, man, Let's go grow some grass.

01:11:11
Speaker 2: Go golfing.

01:11:13
Speaker 1: Just an idea. I like what the Jets have done, and I think they are gonna be better next season. I think people who say that New York is not a playoff team are overlooking them. I don't care how old Aaron Rodgers is, if he is healthy, this is a team that has consistently won. You know, they won seven games this year. They won seven games last year. This is with some of the worst quarterback play in the league. People hate on Robert Sala. I believe in sala I believe in this defense, and if Aaron Rodgers can just stay healthy, I think this team is a wildcard team and a threat to win that division. I think the Dolphins are gonna be worse next year. I am out on the Patriots as a real contender. I think it is Buffalo in New York. They're gonna be fighting for the division. I'm gonna take Buffalo because I think they're gonna be even next year. But I think the Jets are definitely gonna be a team that is fighting for a wildcard spot, and I'm not ready to count them out yet. So I like what the Jets have done. I just pray that they can stay healthy.

01:12:11
Speaker 2: I really like it too. I think that maybe it was not a blessing in disguise that Aaron Rodgers missed the season with injury, because obviously that sucks and you can't be like, oh, they protected him because he had a season ending injury. But I do think having another year bought them a little bit of time to refine this roster and turn into a more complete contender. I know that I was high on what they were gonna do. Logan, you thought they were gonna win the whole freaking super Bowl, so obviously you really liked their roster. But that line was gonna be a concern no matter what. I think the run game, they were gonna have some issues no matter what, largely because of the line. So I do like what they've done. I also worry about health with Tyron Smith and Mike Williams and whatnot, and they have invested in some older guys overall. But if Aaron Rodgers is the Aaron Rodgers, we know they should absolutely be a playoff team. You mentioned the floor that they have established with these miserable offenses two years ago, winning seven games scoring seventeen points per game, this year winning seven games under sixteen points per game, bottom five offenses, and still because of how dominant that defense is, they're able to compete. Now. You put Aaron with a very legit number one in Garrett Wilson, but a legit number two now as well, and Mike Williams, and I'm optimistic. I think they can be really good. How about the draft? Do you have any thoughts anybody who you particularly like for them? At ten? At ten, A lot of people are saying Brock Bowers.

01:13:42
Speaker 1: Hmm, that's early for a tight end. I like Bowers a lot. I think Bowers is gonna be Laporta esque immediately.

01:13:49
Speaker 2: You wouldn't have taken Sam Laporta at ten if you thought he was.

01:13:51
Speaker 1: Gonna be back go. I mean, if Laporta is gonna yeah, no, I would take if Bowers produced, and they do need a tight end, so it's interesting. It's an interesting proposition. I wonder if they should invest more in the offensive line, any interior guys, or maybe just getting a tackle for the future or another dynamic wide receiver. I don't know if that sounds crazy, but the wide receiver has a lot of talent in this year's draft. And think about it too, like the depth of the position this year in my opinion, because you're gonna have Marvin Harrison Junior is consensus first guy off the board. You have elite neighbors, you have Brian Thomas, you have Mitchell O. Doon say like, there's gonna be somebody if the Jets want a triple dip and you move Mike to your third guy, if you want to have Mike and Garrett is your outside guys, and move the guy you draft is the slot guy. You know. I don't know if there's you know, I don't know if it's ever an issue getting an extra really talented wide receiver. So I I think I think I'd go wide out if I'm New York Man. I'm kind of talking myself into that.

01:14:58
Speaker 2: I can see it. My present unction, though, is that if they're gonna go the pass catcher mould just considering what they did last offseason, bringing over Rogers guys that they already have Wilson and now bringing in Mike Williams. It's obviously in a stacked receiving core they could improve it, but I think they might be able to add more value at tight end, and a lot of people think that they're gonna go with Bowers. I wouldn't be surprised if they did. I also, by the way, like the Jets bringing in Tyrod just to have like an actual professional stabilizer quarterback, because if they had Tyrod this past year, dude, maybe they win nine games. Like, it's tough to overstate how horrible their quarterback play was. Zach Wilson started most of the season, and they turned to Tim Boyle in Trevor Simeon just because Zach Wilson was so bad. But then both those guys were clearly worse than Zach Wilson. That's a rare kind of hell in twenty twenty. Yeah, all right, pop a Planet asks what tear is Jordan love?

01:16:01
Speaker 1: I think Jordan loves a tier two quarterback right now right outside, Like the bonafide franchise studs. He's probably hanging in there with Trevor Lawrence. That's the tier I put him in. Tier one for me is bona fide number one superstar QBS. That's Mahomes, that's Josh Allen, that's Joe Burrow, that's Lamar Jackson, that's Justin Herbert and c. J. Stroud. I'm trying to think, because I normally always forget one quarterback in this year, I'm.

01:16:28
Speaker 2: Trying to I think you said them all.

01:16:30
Speaker 1: I think I got everybody. If I didn't say Lamar, throw Lamar in there, and then I think Jordan Love is in that next tier. I think it's Love. I think it's Trevor Lawrence. Do I put Dak Prescott in this tier? Probably Dak, probably Jared Goff. I'd also I'd have Stafford as a tier one guy. Still, I think Stafford's a bona fide still number one QB. He's in that cheer too, and Jordan Love with another half a year, with another year year of I think Jalen Hurts is in this tier two. Kyler Murray is in this tier for me if he has another year of doing what he did last season. And I fully anticipated happening because I believe in Jordan Love. I think he could climb into Tier one, but it's gonna take him winning his division. I think. I think Green Bay has to win their division, and I think Jordan Love has to play well for me to put him in Tier one. But I think he's a franchise guy.

01:17:26
Speaker 2: Oh, He's definitely a franchise guy. He was unbelievable down the stretch of last regular season. Obviously really impressive combination of physical traits in a much more mature understanding of the game. As the year went along, I mean, just processing, he got so much better, really really talented kid. I think he's definitely in Tier two. There has to be a delineation between the top five and everybody else. I mean, you could argue there's a delineation between Mahomes and everybody else, But I don't know if you want to have one guy in a tier and then Josh Lamar her Burrow of course, and Stroud I don't think is on that level right now, but I do think in terms of long term value, he's in that tier, and then the next group of guys are tier two. So I agree Prescott Stafford. Yeah, in terms of current ability, I would say is closer to tier one. I mean, he's a top six quarterback in the NFL right now, and then you have the te laws and everybody. So I agree with you. Love is in that tier two. Okay, Ben asks, what are some of the NFL teams with the best futures?

01:18:34
Speaker 1: Well, I want to premise this was saying, it's always really hard to predict NFL team's futures. Like NBA, you get guys under contract, there are really young prospects that you like. Where you go, man, I like this guy's traits. He's going to develop into this. NFL is difficult for a few reasons. One injuries, to turnover period in the offseason. There's so much turnover and so many moving parts and variables. If it's coordinators, if it's player migration, if it's guys you know improving or you know falling. The NFL has so many moving parts it's always really hard to gauge. But if you pushed me to give you specific teams, I would say I still believe in Jacksonville and Trevor Lawrence. I think once they figure it out, Jacksonville is going to be a contender. I really like Indianapolis and Shane Steiken. I think they're talented. I think they've got a great offensive line. I think they've got a great coordinator and head coach. And I think they've got a bona fide star quarterback in Anthony Richardson that I can buy into. And even if Anthony Richardson doesn't work out, I think the Colts coaching staff and requisite talent is good enough where they're gonna be competitive and can find a new guy. I would say the Chargers. I really like LA. They clear it off a lot of cap and a lot of Chargers fans and a lot of fans across the league are scratching their head and they're not happy that they've lost Keenan Allen, that they've lost Mike Williams. That you got to do it. You cannot have the those kind of salary caps eating at you, especially at the wide receiver position. You got Herbert, you got the head coach. I don't care. They've got the two most important things figured out. Coaching, QB. I think the Chargers got a lot of new money figured out. They got a high draft pick. The Chargers are gonna figure it out. I'm very confident in them, and I don't know if it's gonna be next year, but I think they're gona figure it out down the line. I know a lot of people don't like this team. I think Vegas is gonna be sneaky good next year if they figure out their quarterback. If they're going in with Aidan O'Connell. I'm selling all my Raiders stock before the season starts. But if they get any QB in the draft or no, they got Minshew right, but yeah, if they get another QB that I really like, I could see Vegas turning something around. And then in the NFC, there's not a lot of candidates. I like the NFC. I would probably say one team and that team, or two teams both in the North. I'd say Minnesota is going to figure it out. They're on a decent trajectory. I like their head coach Kevin O'Connell. I like their defensive coordinator Brian Flores. I think they're talented, more talented on defense. I like their old line, I like their weapons. I just don't like their quarterback. Once Minnesota, and I'm not buying into the I know the popular thing is that Donald's gonna have his Baker Mayfield resurgence in Minnesota. I don't buy that at all. I also don't buy into the fact that Minnesota is rocking with Donald is their day one starter. I don't buy into that at all. I think Minnesota is going to draft a quarterback and Donald is going to start the first half of the season, and then they're gonna put a guy in if they get the quarterback figured out. I like Minnesota, and then Chicago you got Caleb. If Chicago can't figure out Caleb, sorry, Chicago is just a cursed franchise that is ultimately never gonna figure it out. And you guys peaked in nineteen eighty five. Sorry, But I do like both of their futures. So those are the teams that I'd say Jacksonville, Indianapolis, LA, Green Bay, Chicago or not Minnesota Chicago.

01:21:58
Speaker 2: We got to get a leash on this guy, Logan Cammedy. He's taking shots at shy Town, Shyrack, He's taking shots at Tom Brady. Somebody get this guy a water. Yeah, like a lot of the choices that you laid out there, but I do like Green Bay. You mentioned a couple other teams in the North. I think, when you're looking at the key ingredients to have in place, can you.

01:22:17
Speaker 1: Really say green Bay is?

01:22:19
Speaker 2: Yes, I can. If you're a scrappy, young playoff team, I think that I can still say you are.

01:22:26
Speaker 1: I was trying to stay on the margins.

01:22:28
Speaker 2: I don't.

01:22:28
Speaker 1: I feel like Green Bay's kind of stamped as that team, right.

01:22:31
Speaker 2: Oh, so impressive logan that you think outside the box like that. Well, I'm gonna say green Bay because they have a lot of the most important ingredients. Franchise, quarterback, brilliant young coach. Maybe they don't have like that one standout weapon, but overall, they have a very young receiving corps that is good in ahead of schedule, a lot of good defensive pieces in place. They were already productive there this last year. They bring in Xavier McKinney in this offseason. I just love a lot of what they're doing. And it's a great franchise and organization.

01:23:00
Speaker 1: Like you said too, I mean, they were the youngest team in football last.

01:23:02
Speaker 2: Season's youngest so football and they're already good.

01:23:05
Speaker 1: I mean that bodes well, like sure does bode well.

01:23:08
Speaker 2: And I guess the other boring answer would be Houston, where they have a lot of the similar ingredients. Scrappy, young playoff team this year, but absolute franchise quarterback, awesome coach, and I think they're in an even better position because I seem more like franchise talents on the team top to bottom. Nico Collins, I think is a franchise receiver. Tank Dell is also really good obviously, but super young talented players. I think defensively, Stingley and Will Anderson are both like franchise defensive building blocks. So Houston is the team that I look at and I'm like, they have a lot of young studs, And You're right, there is always turnover in football, But when you have several core difference makers like that who are all trending upwards, I tend to be pretty optimistic. Also, Logan, I guess you can't really say the best future, but at the same time you can because the best maybe yet to come. For the Buffalo Bills, as long as they have Josh Allen, that's the reality. As long as the Ravens have Lamar Jackson and the Bengals have Joe Burrow, all these teams are gonna at least be in the mix and I really like what the Ravens have done in terms of roster building these last two offseasons. I think they're loaded. And I like the Bills getting younger and hopefully getting healthier with that as well.

01:24:24
Speaker 1: I think the Bills had a sneaky good offseason.

01:24:26
Speaker 2: Man, I like what the Bills that. I think there was some addition by subtraction. All love to the Bills legends who had to be let go, but I think it represents a good pivot to being younger and more athletic and healthier.

01:24:38
Speaker 1: Do you guys still have von under contract?

01:24:41
Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about it.

01:24:42
Speaker 1: You guys gotta get off that.

01:24:43
Speaker 2: There's no really great way to get off of it. Unfortunately, if there were, I think it would have already been done. But anyways, anyways, I mean he did do a little restructuring. He cuts like his his official salary in half, I think. But yeah, I would love to move on from that guy. All right, Logan, we have just a couple of non NBA NFL questions. This time we like to end with them normally. This one is all for you. Buddy JD asks, what is the best WrestleMania may event of all time?

01:25:20
Speaker 1: All right, if you guys aren't wrestling fans, just tune out, skip ahead.

01:25:23
Speaker 2: I'm gonna know or take the opportunity to learn.

01:25:27
Speaker 1: The tenant to me about a great wrestling match is the storytelling. Any wrestling storyline or any match has to do with great storytelling or a well crafted match. So the best matches are always going to be a great story that's being told combined with great in ring action. This one isn't a main event. The first match that I think of is is WrestleMania thirteen. Steve Austin enters the match against Brett Hart. Steve Austin is a heel. Brett Hart is a face, and they have an absolute war that ends with Stone Cold Steve Austin one of the most unique endings in wrestling history. He passes out in a sharpshooter due to the blood he's opening his head. He doesn't tap out, though Stone Cold never gives up. He is sitting there gritting through his teeth, He's bleeding from his forehead. It is brutal and he passes out and that's how Brett Hart beats him, and in that moment they switch. Brett Hart became a heel. Stone Cold became a face of the company and they did a switch. That's one of my favorite that wasn't a WrestleMania main event. My favorite WrestleMania match ever is twenty six Shawn Michaels versus Undertaker, and wrestling fans will tell you that WrestleMania twenty five was better. I prefer twenty six because the stakes were higher and also how we got there. The stakes in the match was it was a street versus career match, so if Shawn Michael's lost, he had to retire, So the stakes already really high. But it was a swerve and how we got there. On the road to that WrestleMania, everybody thought Shawn Michaels was gonna win the Royal Rumble. He doesn't. He gets eliminated by Batista on the way to the Royal Rumble and so Michaels enters in the elimination Chamber screws Over. During this time, he is begging Undertaker, please fight me, Please fight me. I just want to have this match. An Undertaker tells him, no, you gotta earn it. You gotta earn it. So what does Seawan do? He screws the Undertaker over. He ends ups the elimination Chamber. Oh whoa whoa whoa super kicks Undertaker hands over the World Heavyweight title to his rival Chris Jericho. Jericho goes into the WrestleMania with the World Heavyweight title, setting up Michaels versus Undertaker Part two. And the reason this is my favorite is the in ring action is immaculate. The storytelling is great, but the match storytelling and how the match ends. WrestleMania twenty five ended with Shawn Michaels doing a backflip off the top rope into a tombstone that ends the match, and WrestleMania twenty six ends in a different way. Undertaker tombstone Seawn Michaels and he kicks out at the last moment. Undertaker can't believe it and it's like, oh my gosh, is Sean gonna win it? Instead of Sean getting back up and fighting. And I think Sean Michaels is the greatest in ring performer of all time. Everybody talks about what a douchebag he was behind the scenes. I don't think there's ever been a better n ring competitor. He is the goat of ring action to me. He gets up and he just accepts his fate. Sean has been fighting and clawing and it's been his only aspiration for the fast five years. Instead of fighting and clawing and trying to win this match, he accepts his fate. He taunts Undertaker, he does the Undertaker taunt to him, and then he slaps Undertaker across the face like just super disrespectful. Undertaker picks him up tombstones and one more time pins him and that's the match and it ends, and it was just a great piece of storytelling. I'll give one more here because I geek out about this stuff. WrestleMania twenty four Edge versus Undertaker World Heavyweight Title versus. The streak of this match was awesome. Edge brutalizes Undertaker. They go for like twenty twenty five minutes, and you're sitting there going Edge. You're sitting there thinking, uh, is Edge gonna do it? Is he gonna break the streak? And he's gearing up to spear Undertaker and you're like, oh shit, he's gonna hit Undertaker. He's gonna spear him. It's gonna be over. And as Edge goes to spear Undertaker, Undertaker catches him in a submission his Hell's Gate, right is he spears Edge and.

01:29:31
Speaker 2: Whoa, this is all on WWE, This is all on WrestleMania.

01:29:34
Speaker 1: Can yeah yeah wow. He traps, he traps edges arm in Hell's Gate. Uh, it's a commer, it's a Kamura lock. But he makes he makes Edge tap out and that's the match. So he finished Edge, He finished Edging, He finished Edging. Man, what uh those are? There's a lot I could honestly, Man, I could go on and on about wrestling all day, but those are probably my top two. Twenty six Undertake Kershawn Michaels in twenty four Edge and Undertaker. I love those matches.

01:30:04
Speaker 2: As a kid, one time I tried to tombstone my brother in the pool and I was gloating for some time putting on a show. We would do these imaginary WWE matches, and I didn't consider that this meant that my young brother's head was underwater for quite some time, and so I was drowning him. My father came out in quite a rage. So that's my tombstone.

01:30:26
Speaker 1: So I remember my cousins came over to my house. Yeah, and I didn't have any brothers. When I was little, I had two sisters, and so my two male cousins coming over was super exciting because all I could think was, like all the wrestling moves. Yeah, I took my mattress off my bed and I put it in the floor, and the entire time we were jumping off of my mattress box spring onto each other, doing like elbow drops and like Superman splashes and stuff. And my aunt and uncle have never been as mad at me as they were when they came in.

01:31:01
Speaker 2: And why.

01:31:03
Speaker 1: You know, that's what we thought it was. They were not huge fans of the rough housing, so unfortunately that came to an abrupt end.

01:31:11
Speaker 2: I mean, if they think that's bad, they should see what these guys are doing. And the real thing, smilent thing wrestling is my god an RKO, Are you kidding me? None for me? Thanks? All right. Last question of the day comes from this guy. Dude, I don't know. This disgruntled fan in our discord continues to harass us, and I'm thinking about taking legal action. I almost hesitate to give him a platform and say his name, but I will if any of you guys want to contact the authorities. Matthew spawnauur asks what's wrong with you boys? Why are you so weird and freaky?

01:31:49
Speaker 1: Oh? I think he's frustrated with the influx of messages that he's received in our discord, considering we shout him out of every episode. Also, if you guys didn't know, you can join our discord and talk to the Matthew SPAWNA link is in our bio everywhere on our social media platform. So I'm sure he's just flooded with messages of adoring fans what is wrong with us cars? And I was just gonna, you know, attribute it to the fact that you went to Piedmont. I grew up in rural Virginia, so you know there's a few screws loose for me.

01:32:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have something known as Grot's disease, and that's why I am the.

01:32:22
Speaker 1: Way I am. Please elaborate.

01:32:23
Speaker 2: Well, it was named after the Pittsburgh Steelers second baseman back in the day, Lou Groat. He was very nervous. He was very nervous and not very sure handed at second base, and so they named sort of an anxiety syndrome after him. And that's gross disease, And that's what you say. His name was lou Groat.

01:32:40
Speaker 1: Are you thinking of lou gerrig.

01:32:42
Speaker 2: No, I'm not thinking of Luke g lou Garey's disease logan is something else, and it's much more serious, also known as als.

01:32:50
Speaker 1: Do you just get like nervous man?

01:32:52
Speaker 2: Yes, I have Groat's disease logan. That's what's wrong with me. That's why I'm so weird and freaking No. You know what, Matthew, by the way, you're a guy who likes to be known as Matthew. You don't like to be known as Matt as much as you like to be known as Matthew. But I still call you Matt sometimes anyways, just to get under your skin. That's the kind of mind games that I'm playing with you. I own you, corn boy, that's right. You think I don't notice that you're always reviewing corn. It's a weird thing to do. Freak dude.

01:33:23
Speaker 1: I heard he eats corn the long way man.

01:33:27
Speaker 2: Like he gnaws it and end.

01:33:30
Speaker 1: Yeah.

01:33:31
Speaker 2: I was gonna also straight that, but then I realized that wasn't such a good idea.

01:33:34
Speaker 1: He's also a sadistic sob for liking Charlotte Hornet's basketball. I wouldn't subject anyone to that.

01:33:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, not to mention he still lives in the glory days of Cam Newton's MVP season, which was closer to the Bush presidency than it is today, significantly closer. Might I add, do you ever think about that, Matthew? Do you ever think about the fact that Cincinnati hasn't produced a relevant basketball player since Kenyan Martin? Do you ever think about that Ohio State more like Ohio win a championship? Come on, man, That's all I have to say about that. All right, guys, appreciate you sending in your questions. All of you except for Matthew spawn Hour, we do not appreciate your question, and we hope that Little Caesars reconsiders their association with you. We also hope Blaydan Kirk does the same THEO. Frankly, you guys are a nice fit together, a couple of freaks, so keep on doing your thing, I guess. As always, if you guys enjoyed the show, there is more Nerd Sash content to be found everywhere. Really YouTube, you can find all of our full shows and the video essays video breakdowns that we do there. We also have another trivia Gauntlet coming out this weekend that we mentioned earlier, Logan and I going head to head. That's always fun. You can find all of our trivia content across social media as well TikTok and Instagram, at nerd sessh, Twitter at nerd Underscore Sesh, and you can listen to the podcast across audio platforms. You can check out our merch Logan's got the hat on and we got the Flags at the Volume dot com, and you can join our discord for a chance to speak to the one and only Matthew spawn Hour. That link is also at the link tree in our bio. So with that as always appreciate you guys. I've been Carson Braber

01:35:13
Speaker 1: I've been Logan Camden, and this was Merrit Sash