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Hi there, everyone.
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Welcome back to the Multiply Network Podcast. My name is Paul Fraser.
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So glad that you're here joining us for our series on the Eight Most Common Objections to Church Multiplication, as part of our Every Church a Multiplying Church initiative. And today we're going to be talking of objection number five.
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We just aren't ready yet. I'm not ready as the leader for church multiplication, and neither is my church.
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So we're going to talk about that today with two of my friends.
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Welcome to the podcast, Jim Molloy and Michael Bronson.
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Michael, welcome.
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How are you doing today?
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Yeah, thanks.
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Thanks for having me on again.
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This is a lot of fun.
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I'm excited that we have the legendary Jim Molloy with us as well. Wow, what a--. This is a special one.
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He's back.
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And he's on cold medicine today.
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So that should be a fun podcast.
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Jim, how are you feeling?
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I'm doing great.
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It's 35 degrees here.
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I'm in a cool basement, hopped up on cold medication.
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It's going to be a great podcast.
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(Laughter) We have editors for this right?
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Yeah, this is why we have editors.
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Yeah. So great.
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Thanks, guys for doing this.
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I know Summer's always busy.
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And Michael, you're the co-host, so you're always--, well, you don't need to be welcomed, or like, thank us for welcoming.
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You're part of this. So you're just officially like--. You don't have to like-- (Laughter) Thanks for having me on. Well, who else are we having on? You're the co-host.
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Sorry, I'm just a little nervous that Jim Molloy is here.
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You know, I'm just --. When you're, when you're with PAOC royalty, I don't know.
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I don't know.
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The gravitational pull this guy has, it's unbelievable.
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So we're going to jump in to, We just aren't ready yet.
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And of course, this is a legitimate objection in some ways.
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Because, when it comes to church multiplication and planting churches, there is some preparation and readiness.
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Michael, how important is readiness in this area? You've done it.
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You planted two churches now.
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You would agree with this, wouldn't you?
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Yeah, this is--, it's funny. We started off by saying, you know, this is a very common objection, but that's why we're talking about it, because it's common. But this comes up a lot, right? Why would we start another church?
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Why would we start another disciple making community?
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We're not ready for it.
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So you obviously wait until you're ready.
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This is --, it seems like common sense, right? And like, yes, we totally agree with that.
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And you know, what we hear a lot is, kind of this parent analogy.
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If you don't want to be a single parent having a child when you're not ready.
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And that makes a lot of sense.
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You know, if you're having a kid, make sure that you have a house for them, that you've got food for them, that you got finances for this child.
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And none of us want to be irresponsible.
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That's very true.
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That's a very good point.
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But, like pretty much every other objection we've been talking about and, you know, the next couple that we're going to talk about, you don't have to look at it from a certain angle. You can you can look at it from that angle if you want or you can look at it from a totally different angle. So I'm excited to kind of tackle this and challenge this objection.
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And because it has some merit from that angle. But you don't have to look at it from that angle.
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If you get stuck in one perspective, you're always going to see things the same way.
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Yeah, that's right.
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And there's legitimacy and all these objections or they wouldn't be common. That's just how--.
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Like, otherwise they would be like, Why did you pick this random objection that no one has ever thought of?
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So obviously this is something--.
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Like, Jim, I don't think you're --.
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Have you ever run a marathon without training?
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No, I usually do on my marathons, just cold.
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I just start and then I just go.
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And then about 25 feet in I tap out.
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(Laughter) You're already asking for a water break.
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Nobody cares about actually running the marathon. It's just being able to say, I'm doing a marathon on Saturday and then--.
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That's all you have to say.
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I'm doing the marathon.
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But obviously prep is important.
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Like, how well we've prepped for this podcast.
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Like, we're just--.
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We were just talking about that.
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We're just not ready yet.
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This whole podcast is an illustration of that.
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Yet here we are.
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But obviously readiness is important, Jim. What do you think?
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Yeah, for sure. I think there's--, you know, any kind of hesitation is good and bad, right?
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So Scripture will say, you know, if you're going to build a house, you know, size it up, do the math, figure it out.
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But then Scripture also says, you know, don't be saying we're going to harvest later.
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The fields are white, so we can't always be in that readiness-- getting ready stage.
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And I don't know if we ever are fully ready.
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I think readiness is less about preparation and more about obedience. And going when God says go, or staying when God says stay. Or waiting when God says wait.
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And probably if we are feeling ready, we might have waited too long.
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Because we've tried to knock the faith out of it by eliminating risk and consequence.
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We've probably stepped a little into disobedience, if we don't move, were it's a little bit iffy.
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Right.
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And I think we're trying to discern that-- you know, God's timing on things as it relates to readiness.
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Because, right, if you wait too long, waiting for every i to be dotted and every t to be crossed, no one would plant any churches.
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Because there's so much, so many dynamics that happen just even from your pre-launch season to launch season.
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Changing venues and having leaders come in and out and, you know, people showing up saying we're going to, you know, give this much money, then, you know, you don't get calls back and then you rely on that and others, somebody else comes in.
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There's so many dynamics and so you're not totally ever ready.
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And I think--.
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One of the things that I would say probably even - Let's go back to like 2010, 2008, 2010, somewhere in there.
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When we were planting churches--.
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Okay, I'll just say before 2010.
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When we were planting churches, before 2010, we didn't have a lot of process.
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We didn't have a lot of things to get people ready.
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And we saw our closures increase.
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So there was a direct correlation between them.
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But from 2010 on, when there started to be more mainstream church planting resources, when there was more talk about church planting, we had better examples of successful ones.
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I think--. I can't remember, but it was something like between 2010 and 2020, 85 or 88% of the churches we started in that time, by December 31st, 2020 were still active.
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So this idea of a church only lasting a year or two years, that doesn't--, that's rare.
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It used to be the opposite.
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But it's rare now.
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And I think we've gotten better at prep. I think we've gotten better at readiness.
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So we're for readiness.
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But again, I think there's this tension that we have to have between readiness and faith. So we're going to get into that. But, Michael, you talked about perspectives. About, you know, how can we have a different perspective towards this objection?
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Because I think there's some legitimacy here.
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What is a perspective that we can have, perhaps, that helps us work through maybe, rather than knocking it down, but kind of working our way through this objection of we're not ready yet.
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Yeah, that's right.
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Because there is that classic kind of idea.
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Well, if you're not ready, then you don't do it.
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And that's the end of the story.
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But I want to kind of introduce this other perspective.
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Let's call it the Full House perspective. Okay.
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So, who remembers the 90s sitcom Full House?
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What do you have though?
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You have, you have a group of people, you know, all the uncles and neighbours and all the friends or whatever, and they're all raising this family together.
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And yeah, it's true.
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You couldn't take one of those adults in the house and raise the kids in a healthy way or this sort of thing, at least with with that group of people.
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But if you have multiple people all pitching in, all carrying the weight, then beautiful things happen. So I don't know, picture--.
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Like you can picture in this dream world, in this kingdom world, this kingdom of God, where everyone pitches in and says, You know what, Hey, we've identified a group of people or we've identified a community close to us.
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Why don't we get 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 churches together?
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Let's all pitch in finances.
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Let's all pitch in people.
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It's all pitch in equipment.
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What would it look like if we did it together?
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And all of a sudden, you go from, I'm not ready to do this, to Whoa if I partner with different people--. Woah, I'm more than ready and it's--.
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I love what you guys were both just saying there. It's in the lifeblood of who we are as leaders of the kingdom of God, that we need to take risk.
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If we're not taking risk, are we actually leading the way God wants us to be doing?
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And I think it comes down to, you know, I think you guys were just mentioning this, too. It comes down to being prophetic leaders, right?
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And listening to God's voice.
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God, where are you leading us to do this?
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Okay, regardless of what finances or resources we have, if you're calling us to this, then we do it and end of story.
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Think how different Canada would look if we had that that kind of perspective.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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I think one of the things that--.
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I think about with that analogy of, like, even you mentioned, like, doing it together, the Full House.
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It does take a village to raise a child. Why shouldn't it take a village to raise a church, to help a church grow?
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Help a church start.
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Help it get to maturity, those types of things.
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So I think, I do think it is important to have that perspective of, while you may not be ready, like 100% ready - which we'll talk about because I don't think we ever are - but you might not feel like you're ready, but you might be ready with the group that is surrounding.
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Right? Jim, you talked about that tension of like, if you wait too long, you lose the faith side of it.
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Talk about that faith or that tension between faith and readiness, or faith and go on that.
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Yeah. You know, it just--.
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I guess this is not really, the readiness piece really isn't a church planting thing. It's all the ministries that we're called to do.
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When I was called to Bible school or into ministry, the challenge I had was I just felt so under inventoried and under skilled and under ready for a ministry life.
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And somewhere along the way, I had to say, Well, this really has to be God's problem.
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I am what I am.
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I got what I got.
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And I have to-- I have to move, because He said move.
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And fortunately, as time has gone on, more things have been added to the inventory and and still more things to come.
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So I think the difference is, whether we're chasing reasons or excuses.
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Because there's reasons not to do something.
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Like, so there is reasons that I shouldn't go into ministry.
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But those could have tripped over easily into excuses.
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And there's -- Excuse is just way to lie to ourself about, well, we don't really, really want to get after it. So, what we're using as-- what we are using as excuses or as reasons are actually just excuses to not do the thing that God has called us to do.
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If it's planting or it's ministry or talking to somebody, it's all the -- it's all the same sort of thing, right? It's the perspective of I'm not looking for an excuse to not do something, but I want to be aware of the reasons why-- the things I need to conquer before I can get to it.
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Yeah. When I first started in the district role, my very first, like, State of the Union address to our youth pastors - because I was the district youth director. It was my first event that we were running - and I talked about, Safe is dangerous.
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Like, in every sphere of your life, safe is the preferred course of action.
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But when it comes to faith, safe is dangerous.
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Because as soon as you start waiting for thing--. Like, soon as you take the faith out of it and start playing by safe, you're not doing it. And we're not talking about not being good stewards.
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Like, Michael, you have some thoughts around that of like, stewardship.
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This doesn't mean being irresponsible. But, our friends Dave Slater and Jason Small, taught you something around faith, as even it relates to finances when you're ready to go.
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Yeah. Well, that's the thing, right?
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When we hear, Oh, I need to be a good steward, what we always think of right away is finances.
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Yeah, we need to be financial good stewards and this sort of thing.
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But I think it goes much beyond finances.
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I think, you know -- and I'm glad the conversation is really headed towards risk here -- because I think if we're being leaders and we aren't taking risks for the kingdom, I actually would argue that we aren't being good stewards of what God has given us and what God has actually trusted us with, and the resources that He's trusted us with.
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And, yeah, I remember talking to my friend Jason, my friend Dave, and we were talking about some budget stuff. And I remember, Yeah, it was Dave at this point, he said, Oh, where's your faith line in the budget?
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And I said, What are you talking about? He said, Oh, you need a line that just says Faith.
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And you put a number there. And I said, Well, how much do you say?
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And he said, Oh well, just what do you have faith for?
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And I was like, I didn't realize this should be a budget line in my church budget.
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And I guess he was saying that -- And I don't know if I'm supposed to share this story, but I'll share it.
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But I guess Jason once, went to the church he was at.
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He was at the bank and they were looking through the church budget and they said, We're a little curious, what is this Faith line?
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And they're kind of just awkwardly like, Oh, that's just--, that's just what we have faith that is going to come in miraculously.
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And the banker's staring at them, just like, what is wrong with you people? You know?
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(Laughter) But I think that's important. If we want to be good stewards, that's a part of what it means to lead in God's kingdom.
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Anything, anything that you're going to do significantly for the Kingdom of God is-- requires faith.
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Because if you can do it on your own and without God's strength, leading, and direction, it's probably not the kingdom of God.
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It's not something that your--. If it's you that are--.
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Like, it's your vision and your idea and your execution, it's probably not going to have the same impact as if this coming alongside what the Kingdom of God is already doing and taking that risk.
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I remember my son was telling me one time -- when he was very little, he was, he would just watch all sorts of like National Geographic things.
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And one of the things that penguins do, once they get to the edge of a cliff, they jostle back and forth until one falls off.
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And they go in. And if they see the water is good, like they didn't get eaten by a killer whale or shark or whatever, then they all dive in right after.
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And I think leadership is that person that's sitting in the front, being willing to be jostled off and to jump into the new water.
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And when we think we're just not ready yet, leaders have to lead there.
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Because the general group won't go. Like, the people behind you are waiting to see if it's good and if it's safe.
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And you're not going to be perfect and you're not going to be right all the time.
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But you need to be--.
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Leaders, you have to lead this.
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You have to lead through this objection or you will not see those -- And forget about church multiplication, this is anything that you want to lead forward in.
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Jim, any thoughts?
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The thought that comes to mind is, even as you're talking and just before, with Michael talking, that when I heard we're not ready yet, I was thinking in terms of skills, inventory, resources.
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But I guess there's a readiness of heart and spirit and a readiness of resources.
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And I think, they may not follow the same timeline.
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So, you know, a hesitation with--. When your heart and your spirit is ready, maybe that's the first move, and you move before your resources are completely ready.
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So I think when we talk about readiness, what do we mean? Do we mean, like we're not--. When somebody says, I'm not ready to plant or I'm not ready to go into ministry or we're not ready to launch this project.
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I think we have to do a little bit of a deeper work and say, what do we mean by ready? Are we just emotionally ready?
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Energy, strength, time, effort, heart, spirit, or do we mean resources?
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And I think there's different roles that those play.
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We're doing this -- this house I'm in now -- we're doing some renovations. It's endless.
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And I have a real hard time getting motivated to do stuff, right?
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To just--.
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Oh, I'm not ready to re--, I'm not ready to renovate the kitchen.
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You know, I'm not ready to do that.
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But I trick myself by taking the next natural step.
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So I'm just going to go up and I'm just going to lay 12 pieces of flooring and call it a night.
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Well, that next natural step, you know, always turns into 50 pieces of flooring. And then then I'm done. So the overwhelm can be knocked out by doing a little bit of, Okay, I can't get myself motivated, but if I do the next natural thing I could do to move me toward the thing that would get me ready to do the thing, I can trick myself into getting more momentum than maybe I had just sitting on the couch.
00:18:26.420 --> 00:18:28.438
So I think there's a principle there too, for us in multiplication.
00:18:28.439 --> 00:18:38.837
It's one thing to say, I'm not ready, but are you doing anything to move you closer to readiness, even if it's small.
00:18:38.838 --> 00:18:38.840
Exactly, exactly.
00:18:38.842 --> 00:18:41.269
Rather than sitting around, saying, I'm not ready, I'm just not ready.
00:18:41.269 --> 00:18:42.229
We're not ready.
00:18:42.230 --> 00:18:47.509
But that next natural, small step will eventually create a momentum.
00:18:47.509 --> 00:18:48.888
And you've-- you're ready.
00:18:48.890 --> 00:18:49.999
You've launched, You've gone.
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:57.538
You've moved, before you even know that you had even started, because you've taken-- you took a series of small natural steps.
00:18:57.539 --> 00:19:05.807
And that's the danger, I think, of being, of saying I'm not ready is -- That's fine, as long as you're doing something active to get ready.
00:19:05.808 --> 00:19:06.808
Life or ministry.
00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:12.557
Jim, you're very wise on cold medication. You should be on it more.
00:19:12.558 --> 00:19:17.989
That was really good. (Laughter) I think you've I think you brought up something.
00:19:17.990 --> 00:19:26.328
I love your perspective and it's why we like having different perspectives. Because, to me, I'm just thinking emotionally, mentally, spiritually.
00:19:27.890 --> 00:19:31.338
And then, but then there's also like, Well, we also don't have a leader to go.
00:19:31.339 --> 00:19:32.509
We don't have a planter.
00:19:32.509 --> 00:19:34.788
We don't have funds saved.
00:19:34.789 --> 00:19:42.909
There's some practical. I think I know the answer to this, Michael, but, is there an order for readiness?
00:19:42.910 --> 00:19:46.598
You know, those two things that Jim brought up, you've done it.
00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:57.470
Is there an-- I think I know the answer, but like, I feel like you can't put the cart--. One's the cart, one's the horse. But why don't you talk about that? What do you need to get--?
00:19:58.990 --> 00:20:01.298
What do you need to do to get through this objection?
00:20:01.299 --> 00:20:02.108
Which one is first?
00:20:02.109 --> 00:20:03.818
What's the cart? What's the horse?
00:20:03.819 --> 00:20:09.368
Yeah. Well, and I think it comes down to -- it was mentioned right at the beginning.
00:20:09.369 --> 00:20:10.749
It's obedience.
00:20:10.750 --> 00:20:16.719
Right? And if God is calling us to do something, it doesn't matter what we have yet.
00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:20.288
We know that God is going to provide that as you, as you go.
00:20:20.289 --> 00:20:23.268
So I think it very much is, it starts with the heart.
00:20:23.269 --> 00:20:26.618
And it starts with what is God calling you to?
00:20:26.619 --> 00:20:37.659
And, you know, a couple of months ago, we had -- or recently-- we had the Multiply Network conference before district conference -- or before national conference, I should say.
00:20:37.660 --> 00:20:46.669
And I love what Bill Markham, Pastor Bill Markham, one of the speakers said. He said, Pray until you know that you know that you know.
00:20:46.670 --> 00:20:48.229
And then you just do it.
00:20:48.230 --> 00:20:51.588
You know, regardless of what leaders you have, regardless of what finances you have.
00:20:51.589 --> 00:20:56.659
If God is calling you to do something, you go and you do it. And here's the thing.
00:20:56.660 --> 00:21:08.028
We're not suggesting here on this podcast right now, okay, go do something extremely irresponsible and, you know, just say, I have faith that God's going to do it, so I'm going to do it. Woah, woah, pause for a second.
00:21:08.029 --> 00:21:09.828
Is God calling you to that?
00:21:09.829 --> 00:21:14.509
Not just do you want to see that happen? Is God calling you specifically?
00:21:14.509 --> 00:21:15.348
Okay, perfect.
00:21:15.349 --> 00:21:23.628
Go, go and do it. Because He's going to provide the resources and the finances as you go. And honestly, He'll provide the leaders as you go as well.
00:21:23.630 --> 00:21:35.689
I remember when we were planting in our second spot - or replanting our second spot - I remember the person that we had as our location pastor, she looked at me and she said, okay, we've got a couple of months.
00:21:35.690 --> 00:21:39.002
We still don't have our youth pastor yet. We still don't have our kids pastor yet.
00:21:39.003 --> 00:21:43.999
And she started going through some leaders that we don't have yet and she said, What do we do?
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:47.353
And I looked back and I said, Well, what we do is we pray.
00:21:47.354 --> 00:21:59.148
And I looked back -- and I meant it, though. Genuinely, I was not worried. I said -- Her name is Eliza -- I said, Eliza, the right people will come in time.
00:21:59.150 --> 00:22:00.499
And what do you know?
00:22:00.500 --> 00:22:07.159
Three months later, we launched off that service with exactly who we, who we needed.
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:14.598
And it's funny, we joke about that conversation looking back and it's like, yeah, we kind of went through the pools that we knew people that could do it.
00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:20.358
And we strategically reached out to different people and, you know, put the posting out there, and this sort of thing.
00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:33.618
But it came down to, nope, God's calling us to this, and He's going to provide. And honestly, if it comes to launch day and there aren't certain people in place, you know what? As long as we're walking in obedience then, then we didn't need those people.
00:22:33.619 --> 00:22:38.118
We didn't need those leaders. Because if God's called us to it, He's going to provide for it.
00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:43.068
So I think it really comes down to discerning God, where are you calling us to do this?
00:22:43.069 --> 00:22:51.288
And -- this is just my conviction -- I believe all of us are, to some degree, called to be involved in planting and involved in church multiplication.
00:22:51.289 --> 00:22:56.449
So it's more, it's not God, am I called to this? It's God, I know I'm called to this.
00:22:56.450 --> 00:22:58.489
But how is it that I'm involved?
00:22:58.490 --> 00:23:01.338
Is it through our church just doing it on our own?
00:23:01.339 --> 00:23:03.259
Is it through partnering with other churches?
00:23:03.259 --> 00:23:06.858
Is it finding an existing church plant that's already started that we can go support?
00:23:06.859 --> 00:23:09.558
It's more figuring out where you fit in that.
00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:10.608
And I --.
00:23:10.609 --> 00:23:11.778
Yeah, that's what I think.
00:23:11.779 --> 00:23:13.848
That's what I would say. That's the order of it.
00:23:13.849 --> 00:23:18.048
Yeah. And I--, I figured you would go there, because that's where it was in my--.
00:23:18.049 --> 00:23:21.739
You got to get it clear, between you and the Lord, that this is something you're called to.
00:23:21.740 --> 00:23:26.441
And at the end of the day, we have to remind ourselves that Jesus is the senior pastor of His church.
00:23:26.442 --> 00:23:35.118
And He's the one that sends and He's the one that says go, and calls, and is leading.
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:40.945
And you're right, we believe every church can be a multiplying church, because if you have Jesus at the center, you have kingdom DNA.
00:23:40.946 --> 00:23:44.058
And kingdom DNA always has seed.
00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:46.278
So you can choose to eat the seed, or you can plant it.
00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:49.162
And I think Jesus always wanted us to plant the seed.
00:23:49.163 --> 00:23:52.818
Talks lots about that throughout the scriptures.
00:23:52.819 --> 00:24:09.138
And so I think, we believe that inside every single Bible believing, Jesus loving, Spirit led church is kingdom multiplication, and it's available for everyone.
00:24:09.140 --> 00:24:12.679
Jim, you talked about natural next steps.
00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:20.059
Do you have any other thoughts around those natural next steps for people who are like, I've never thought of planting.
00:24:20.060 --> 00:24:33.808
But, if you believe--. Like if we have kingdom DNA inside of us, and multiplication is inside of us by virtue of the kingdom of God, maybe we need to start thinking about this.
00:24:33.809 --> 00:24:42.298
What's a natural next step for someone to go, Okay, maybe our church, or our leadership, or our ministry can be multiplying.
00:24:42.299 --> 00:24:43.500
Any thoughts around that, Jim?
00:24:45.210 --> 00:24:46.380
Just two come to mind.
00:24:47.460 --> 00:25:00.088
At the appropriate time -- First one-- At the appropriate time, it's good to have a conversation with somebody about the dream or the thing that the Lord might be telling you.
00:25:00.089 --> 00:25:06.209
There's something happens when we vocalize and verbalize that thing that we think God might be saying to us.
00:25:06.210 --> 00:25:09.659
It's good to let it sit in our hearts and our spirits for a season.
00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:14.249
But something happens when we say it to somebody that we trust and they can explore it with us.
00:25:14.250 --> 00:25:25.588
So moving it from a thought or an impression or something internal to something external does something to us in ministry, or multiplication, a number of things.
00:25:25.589 --> 00:25:31.858
The other thing that comes to mind is to get really honest about what is actually missing.
00:25:31.859 --> 00:25:34.588
So this happens all the time in the coaching world.
00:25:34.589 --> 00:25:37.979
A person will say, Well, I'm not ready to do that thing that they know they should do.
00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:41.548
I'm not, I'm not ready and I need to get some things in place.
00:25:41.549 --> 00:25:46.199
And so they will say to them, what's missing?
00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:58.618
And when they start to take account of what's actually missing, they find that they're more ready than they thought, and the things that were missing could actually be found quicker with a little bit of creative thinking.
00:25:58.619 --> 00:26:10.888
Or maybe the answers are already kind of there, as as they explore what is actually--. So get really honest about, What is it that we're not ready--, what area are we not ready in?
00:26:10.890 --> 00:26:13.299
And maybe we're more ready than we think we are.
00:26:15.329 --> 00:26:16.409
We've got some--.
00:26:16.410 --> 00:26:39.781
We have a tool that we want to, at the end of the podcast, make available for you for free, around a short survey to determine whether your church is ready, and the seven areas, perhaps, that you could grow in even now to start doing that. I think another natural next step is, hey, we're not ready to plant, but maybe you can partner.
00:26:39.782 --> 00:26:45.328
Maybe somewhere you can, you know, find a church planter.
00:26:45.329 --> 00:26:54.580
Say, hey, we want to pray for your church. We want to come help you with your children's program some week or, you know, hey, do you need stuff done on your building or whatever.
00:26:54.582 --> 00:26:56.380
That we're in this together.
00:26:56.381 --> 00:27:06.538
And just being around achurch plant and the people who are planting it's like -- there's something that rubs off on you that's just really, really good.
00:27:06.539 --> 00:27:14.459
And so I think that's another next step, is just be around people who are doing it and talking about it and thinking about it.
00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:20.249
So obviously, so the statement is, We just aren't ready yet.
00:27:21.390 --> 00:27:29.519
And the leader is saying, I'm not ready as a leader for church multiplication and neither is my church. The counter statement we're saying now is this.
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:39.460
No one is ever 100% fully ready, which is a gift, because it teaches us to rely on God.
00:27:41.099 --> 00:27:45.479
There's got to be something in the Bible about this, isn't there, Michael?
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:46.346
You're the resident Bible--.
00:27:46.347 --> 00:27:52.409
We need, like, some special music for Devotional Time with Michael.
00:27:52.410 --> 00:27:53.898
Okay, over you, Michael.
00:27:53.900 --> 00:28:00.280
(Big band music starts playing) Devotional Time with Michael.
00:28:00.281 --> 00:28:05.128
Yeah, that's right. Well, I love that counter statement of, Yeah, it's okay you're not ready.
00:28:05.130 --> 00:28:06.239
Let's acknowledge that.
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:18.778
But it's okay, because God's with you, you know. And just, even before I read a quick scripture here, it's -- Think of, think of--, there's lots of things in life that you're never going to be ready for.
00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:23.219
Right. And I think I heard Jim say this once, Were you ready before you had a child?
00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:24.929
Absolutely not, right?
00:28:24.930 --> 00:28:27.130
Were you ready before you got married? Fully? 100%?
00:28:28.170 --> 00:28:29.608
Absolutely not.
00:28:29.609 --> 00:28:33.868
A lot of the time you're building the thing in the air. You're figuring out as you go.
00:28:33.869 --> 00:28:38.308
And I think that really applies to church multiplication.
00:28:38.309 --> 00:28:47.638
But no, the scripture I would want to encourage everyone listening to, is just this classic Bible Sunday School story.
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:48.640
8.
00:28:50.069 --> 00:28:54.598
"When Simon Peter saw this..." So he just saw Jesus perform the miracle.
00:28:54.599 --> 00:28:57.778
"...he fell at Jesus's knees and said, Go away from me, Lord.
00:28:57.779 --> 00:29:03.209
I'm a sinful man." And then what happened next is Jesus said, Oh yeah, true, you're not ready for my kingdom.
00:29:03.210 --> 00:29:07.288
Bye bye. No, that's not what He did! It says, "Don't be afraid.
00:29:07.289 --> 00:29:17.788
From now on, you're fishing for people. And then they left everything and followed Him." So listen, Peter, who is the leader of the twelve disciples, he's the one who preached on Pentecost.
00:29:17.789 --> 00:29:21.298
This, you know, this is a legendary historical figure.
00:29:21.299 --> 00:29:22.618
He wasn't ready either.
00:29:22.619 --> 00:29:23.578
And what does Jesus do?
00:29:23.579 --> 00:29:24.568
He looks in the eyes.
00:29:24.569 --> 00:29:26.999
It says, No, no, no, it's okay.
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:27.778
Follow me.
00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:29.848
Following me is the key.
00:29:29.849 --> 00:29:39.449
And I would just encourage every single person, every leader listening, saying, you know, that desire is in my heart, that would be so beautiful to do one day, to be involved in church planting.
00:29:39.450 --> 00:29:40.888
But I'm just not ready yet.
00:29:40.890 --> 00:29:49.588
Listen, I would -- I would just challenge that and say, I believe Jesus is looking in your eyes, saying, just come follow me. Just stick with me.
00:29:49.589 --> 00:29:52.528
I'm going to lead you the way that you need to be led.
00:29:52.529 --> 00:29:54.598
Don't think little of yourself.
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:57.898
The Spirit of God lives inside of you. Stop thinking little.
00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:00.279
And God's going to do beautiful things.
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:02.548
I totally agree.
00:30:02.549 --> 00:30:08.249
Jim, you talked about that passage of scripture, No one builds a building without counting the cost.
00:30:08.250 --> 00:30:15.419
I think that there's something to that. Anything to add to that thought you said initially?
00:30:15.420 --> 00:30:22.199
No. Other than when you asked Michael for a scripture, it struck me that it's every Bible story, every Bible story.
00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:31.041
When God asks a leader and every time He called somebody in to do something for Him, like the three of us even, there just wasn't --we just weren't ready.
00:30:32.190 --> 00:30:35.009
And Jesus makes up the difference.
00:30:35.009 --> 00:30:45.669
It's I--. I was on a flight somewhere a while back. Sat next to a guy, and, you know, the inevitable happens when he says, what do you do for a living?
00:30:45.670 --> 00:30:52.798
And then I try to get -- before I get to say that I'm a pastor, I try to least have some sort of warmth in the conversation.
00:30:52.799 --> 00:31:04.999
But he went right after it, What you do for a living? And I said, I'm a pastor. And he said -- I've heard this so many times -- He said, I used to go to church.
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:07.729
And someday I'm going to go back.
00:31:07.730 --> 00:31:12.528
And then something like, When I get myself together, or, When I get my act together.
00:31:12.529 --> 00:31:17.659
When I get my ducks in a row or, When I get myself ready, then I'm going to come back.
00:31:17.660 --> 00:31:22.878
And it's such a sad conversation because Ready is --, Ready is just a myth.
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:25.788
It's the principle of the gospel that He does the work.
00:31:25.789 --> 00:31:30.169
He makes up the gap between who we are and what we can be in Him.
00:31:30.170 --> 00:31:31.308
It's a sad conversation.
00:31:31.309 --> 00:31:32.094
I think the principle applies.
00:31:32.095 --> 00:31:39.949
We're drawn to think of all this self, you know, self preparation and in our own strength.
00:31:39.950 --> 00:31:41.388
And there is some of that.
00:31:41.390 --> 00:31:58.530
But every Bible story, every character not ready, not prepared, but yet called and then anointed and the margin made up -- and even after called, after doing things wrought with failure, and still made ready by the Spirit.
00:31:58.531 --> 00:32:02.449
That's what came to mind when you asked the scripture.
00:32:02.450 --> 00:32:03.588
Yeah. That's great.
00:32:03.589 --> 00:32:04.940
That's a great catch.
00:32:06.049 --> 00:32:14.388
A friend of -- a mutual friend of all of ours, I think, would often say, God doesn't call the qualified.
00:32:14.390 --> 00:32:16.909
He qualifies the called.
00:32:16.910 --> 00:32:21.949
And it's just, that's it. We're never ready.
00:32:21.950 --> 00:32:22.950
Totally.
00:32:23.930 --> 00:32:31.459
But thank God that He does walk with us. And if we stay close to Him, we somehow find our way through it.
00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:33.019
So Jim shared a couple of things.
00:32:33.019 --> 00:32:46.039
Michael, any next steps, since we believe this counter statement that no one is ever 100% fully ready, which is a gift because it teaches us to rely on God, do you have any next steps for our podcast listeners?
00:32:47.150 --> 00:32:53.898
Yeah, I would just I would challenge every single person listening to take an honest evaluation.
00:32:53.900 --> 00:32:56.358
Are we in a comfortable spot?
00:32:56.359 --> 00:33:04.548
Or is there any area of our ministry life where we're taking a risk and it's, Oh boy, God better come through here.
00:33:04.549 --> 00:33:22.219
And if we can't say that, if we're not able to say that we're in a dependent spot, it's actually a really unhealthy place to be in our ministry. So I would challenge, you know, take a moment even, you know, press pause or once this podcast is done, take an honest self-reflection.
00:33:22.220 --> 00:33:25.999
Am I in a dangerously comfortable position?
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:27.378
Because we got to get out of that.
00:33:27.380 --> 00:33:28.219
We got to get to that.
00:33:28.220 --> 00:33:30.108
And I like what we said earlier.
00:33:30.109 --> 00:33:36.979
If we are not doing it as the leaders, good luck getting getting the people in our churches to do that.
00:33:36.980 --> 00:33:38.898
So I'd start with that.
00:33:38.900 --> 00:33:39.528
Yeah.
00:33:39.529 --> 00:33:40.729
Great.
00:33:40.730 --> 00:33:43.710
Jim, any final thoughts before we let you go?
00:33:44.960 --> 00:34:02.788
Yeah, just the one call to action button, I think, would be is if someone has an inkling, or a suspicion, or a hunch that they might be moving toward multiplication as a church, the button to push is to connect with the Multiple Network. To email you, Paul, and just say, hey, I'm thinking about this.
00:34:02.788 --> 00:34:06.588
Because the resources are there and they can be deployed as needed.
00:34:06.589 --> 00:34:14.599
So just when you have that first inkling, to take it, and that will start at least some exploration and maybe some momentum, that would be my call to action button.
00:34:14.599 --> 00:34:17.670
If we could put one in an audio file to contact the MN Network.
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:34.157
Yeah, great. Well, thanks guys, for being on the podcast is as always.You guys always come with great insights. And thanks, Michael, for being my co-host, Jim for being a guest again with us, talking about some of these objections.
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:35.688
So thanks guys for jumping on today.
00:34:36.710 --> 00:34:37.730
Hey, thanks. Good to see you.
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:39.199
Thanks, Paul.
00:34:39.201 --> 00:34:49.818
Well, thanks, everybody, also to you for listening and sticking out to the end. I did mention we do have a resource as part of our Every Church a Multiplying Church initiative.
00:34:49.820 --> 00:34:57.679
If you go to EveryChurch.ca, there is a readiness assessment that is free to download.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:34:59.898
So you can have that.
00:34:59.900 --> 00:35:10.969
If you want to have a follow up call with someone in the Multiply Network. We have, not just myself, we have others that are participating in the leadership. We'd be happy to connect you.
00:35:10.969 --> 00:35:17.088
But what I like about this readiness assessment, it's just it'll take you like, I don't know, maybe ten minutes.
00:35:17.090 --> 00:35:23.730
And it talks about seven key areas that we think are important for a church as we think about being ready.
00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:27.469
These are some areas -- and again, this is not exhaustive.
00:35:27.469 --> 00:35:46.639
It's 35 questions -- but it talks about, it surveys topics around compassion for the unchurched, engaging environments, great commission focus, leadership development pathways, confidence in God's ability -- So that's that faith piece we just talked about -- kingdom mindset and generosity.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:51.067
We think that those are some of the areas that, hey, you can start readying yourself in.
00:35:51.068 --> 00:35:58.489
So even though you maybe are scoring lower in an area, why don't you reach out to us?
00:35:58.489 --> 00:36:10.159
We'd love to have a conversation about, Hey, how can you get a little bit higher? Because we see churches that reach these thresholds often are ready to multiply-- again, not fully ready.
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:12.829
This is just a little survey to help you.
00:36:12.829 --> 00:36:15.708
We've got lots of resources on there.
00:36:15.710 --> 00:36:21.858
We have some cohorts happening this fall around being a multiplying church. We'd love for you to be a part of that.
00:36:21.860 --> 00:36:32.208
The deadline is coming up pretty early here, at the beginning of the fall. At the time of this recording, it's mid-August, but this fall, we're going to be launching some Multiplying Church Cohorts.
00:36:32.210 --> 00:36:33.559
Other things are there.
00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:37.489
We'd love for you to take advantage of all of those free resources.
00:36:37.489 --> 00:36:45.349
Again, thanks so much for jumping on today and we'll be hitting our next objection next podcast.
00:36:45.349 --> 00:36:46.429
So thanks so much.
00:36:46.429 --> 00:36:49.199
Appreciate you all and hope you have an excellent day.
00:36:50.989 --> 00:36:51.889
Well, thanks for listening.
00:36:51.889 --> 00:36:54.768
Today we trust this conversation was encouraging.
00:36:54.769 --> 00:37:01.188
If you want more information on church multiplication resources or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey,
00:37:02.146 --> 00:37:03.146
MultiplyNetwork@PAOC.org.
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Until next time.
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Hi there, everyone.
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Welcome back to the Multiply Network Podcast. My name is Paul Fraser.
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So glad that you're here joining us for our series on the Eight Most Common Objections to Church Multiplication, as part of our Every Church a Multiplying Church initiative. And today we're going to be talking of objection number five.
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We just aren't ready yet. I'm not ready as the leader for church multiplication, and neither is my church.
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So we're going to talk about that today with two of my friends.
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Welcome to the podcast, Jim Molloy and Michael Bronson.
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Michael, welcome.
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How are you doing today?
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Yeah, thanks.
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Thanks for having me on again.
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This is a lot of fun.
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I'm excited that we have the legendary Jim Molloy with us as well. Wow, what a--. This is a special one.
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He's back.
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And he's on cold medicine today.
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So that should be a fun podcast.
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Jim, how are you feeling?
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I'm doing great.
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It's 35 degrees here.
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I'm in a cool basement, hopped up on cold medication.
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It's going to be a great podcast.
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(Laughter) We have editors for this right?
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Yeah, this is why we have editors.
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Yeah. So great.
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Thanks, guys for doing this.
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I know Summer's always busy.
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And Michael, you're the co-host, so you're always--, well, you don't need to be welcomed, or like, thank us for welcoming.
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You're part of this. So you're just officially like--. You don't have to like-- (Laughter) Thanks for having me on. Well, who else are we having on? You're the co-host.
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Sorry, I'm just a little nervous that Jim Molloy is here.
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You know, I'm just --. When you're, when you're with PAOC royalty, I don't know.
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I don't know.
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The gravitational pull this guy has, it's unbelievable.
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So we're going to jump in to, We just aren't ready yet.
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And of course, this is a legitimate objection in some ways.
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Because, when it comes to church multiplication and planting churches, there is some preparation and readiness.
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Michael, how important is readiness in this area? You've done it.
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You planted two churches now.
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You would agree with this, wouldn't you?
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Yeah, this is--, it's funny. We started off by saying, you know, this is a very common objection, but that's why we're talking about it, because it's common. But this comes up a lot, right? Why would we start another church?
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Why would we start another disciple making community?
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We're not ready for it.
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So you obviously wait until you're ready.
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This is --, it seems like common sense, right? And like, yes, we totally agree with that.
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And you know, what we hear a lot is, kind of this parent analogy.
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If you don't want to be a single parent having a child when you're not ready.
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And that makes a lot of sense.
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You know, if you're having a kid, make sure that you have a house for them, that you've got food for them, that you got finances for this child.
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And none of us want to be irresponsible.
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That's very true.
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That's a very good point.
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But, like pretty much every other objection we've been talking about and, you know, the next couple that we're going to talk about, you don't have to look at it from a certain angle. You can you can look at it from that angle if you want or you can look at it from a totally different angle. So I'm excited to kind of tackle this and challenge this objection.
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And because it has some merit from that angle. But you don't have to look at it from that angle.
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If you get stuck in one perspective, you're always going to see things the same way.
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Yeah, that's right.
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And there's legitimacy and all these objections or they wouldn't be common. That's just how--.
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Like, otherwise they would be like, Why did you pick this random objection that no one has ever thought of?
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So obviously this is something--.
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Like, Jim, I don't think you're --.
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Have you ever run a marathon without training?
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No, I usually do on my marathons, just cold.
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I just start and then I just go.
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And then about 25 feet in I tap out.
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(Laughter) You're already asking for a water break.
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Nobody cares about actually running the marathon. It's just being able to say, I'm doing a marathon on Saturday and then--.
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That's all you have to say.
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I'm doing the marathon.
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But obviously prep is important.
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Like, how well we've prepped for this podcast.
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Like, we're just--.
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We were just talking about that.
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We're just not ready yet.
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This whole podcast is an illustration of that.
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Yet here we are.
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But obviously readiness is important, Jim. What do you think?
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Yeah, for sure. I think there's--, you know, any kind of hesitation is good and bad, right?
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So Scripture will say, you know, if you're going to build a house, you know, size it up, do the math, figure it out.
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But then Scripture also says, you know, don't be saying we're going to harvest later.
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The fields are white, so we can't always be in that readiness-- getting ready stage.
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And I don't know if we ever are fully ready.
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I think readiness is less about preparation and more about obedience. And going when God says go, or staying when God says stay. Or waiting when God says wait.
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And probably if we are feeling ready, we might have waited too long.
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Because we've tried to knock the faith out of it by eliminating risk and consequence.
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We've probably stepped a little into disobedience, if we don't move, were it's a little bit iffy.
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Right.
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And I think we're trying to discern that-- you know, God's timing on things as it relates to readiness.
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Because, right, if you wait too long, waiting for every i to be dotted and every t to be crossed, no one would plant any churches.
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Because there's so much, so many dynamics that happen just even from your pre-launch season to launch season.
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Changing venues and having leaders come in and out and, you know, people showing up saying we're going to, you know, give this much money, then, you know, you don't get calls back and then you rely on that and others, somebody else comes in.
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There's so many dynamics and so you're not totally ever ready.
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And I think--.
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One of the things that I would say probably even - Let's go back to like 2010, 2008, 2010, somewhere in there.
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When we were planting churches--.
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Okay, I'll just say before 2010.
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When we were planting churches, before 2010, we didn't have a lot of process.
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We didn't have a lot of things to get people ready.
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And we saw our closures increase.
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So there was a direct correlation between them.
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But from 2010 on, when there started to be more mainstream church planting resources, when there was more talk about church planting, we had better examples of successful ones.
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I think--. I can't remember, but it was something like between 2010 and 2020, 85 or 88% of the churches we started in that time, by December 31st, 2020 were still active.
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So this idea of a church only lasting a year or two years, that doesn't--, that's rare.
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It used to be the opposite.
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But it's rare now.
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And I think we've gotten better at prep. I think we've gotten better at readiness.
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So we're for readiness.
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But again, I think there's this tension that we have to have between readiness and faith. So we're going to get into that. But, Michael, you talked about perspectives. About, you know, how can we have a different perspective towards this objection?
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Because I think there's some legitimacy here.
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What is a perspective that we can have, perhaps, that helps us work through maybe, rather than knocking it down, but kind of working our way through this objection of we're not ready yet.
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Yeah, that's right.
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Because there is that classic kind of idea.
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Well, if you're not ready, then you don't do it.
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And that's the end of the story.
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But I want to kind of introduce this other perspective.
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Let's call it the Full House perspective. Okay.
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So, who remembers the 90s sitcom Full House?
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What do you have though?
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You have, you have a group of people, you know, all the uncles and neighbours and all the friends or whatever, and they're all raising this family together.
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And yeah, it's true.
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You couldn't take one of those adults in the house and raise the kids in a healthy way or this sort of thing, at least with with that group of people.
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But if you have multiple people all pitching in, all carrying the weight, then beautiful things happen. So I don't know, picture--.
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Like you can picture in this dream world, in this kingdom world, this kingdom of God, where everyone pitches in and says, You know what, Hey, we've identified a group of people or we've identified a community close to us.
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Why don't we get 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 churches together?
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Let's all pitch in finances.
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Let's all pitch in people.
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It's all pitch in equipment.
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What would it look like if we did it together?
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And all of a sudden, you go from, I'm not ready to do this, to Whoa if I partner with different people--. Woah, I'm more than ready and it's--.
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I love what you guys were both just saying there. It's in the lifeblood of who we are as leaders of the kingdom of God, that we need to take risk.
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If we're not taking risk, are we actually leading the way God wants us to be doing?
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And I think it comes down to, you know, I think you guys were just mentioning this, too. It comes down to being prophetic leaders, right?
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And listening to God's voice.
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God, where are you leading us to do this?
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Okay, regardless of what finances or resources we have, if you're calling us to this, then we do it and end of story.
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Think how different Canada would look if we had that that kind of perspective.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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I think one of the things that--.
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I think about with that analogy of, like, even you mentioned, like, doing it together, the Full House.
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It does take a village to raise a child. Why shouldn't it take a village to raise a church, to help a church grow?
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Help a church start.
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Help it get to maturity, those types of things.
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So I think, I do think it is important to have that perspective of, while you may not be ready, like 100% ready - which we'll talk about because I don't think we ever are - but you might not feel like you're ready, but you might be ready with the group that is surrounding.
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Right? Jim, you talked about that tension of like, if you wait too long, you lose the faith side of it.
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Talk about that faith or that tension between faith and readiness, or faith and go on that.
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Yeah. You know, it just--.
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I guess this is not really, the readiness piece really isn't a church planting thing. It's all the ministries that we're called to do.
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When I was called to Bible school or into ministry, the challenge I had was I just felt so under inventoried and under skilled and under ready for a ministry life.
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And somewhere along the way, I had to say, Well, this really has to be God's problem.
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I am what I am.
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I got what I got.
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And I have to-- I have to move, because He said move.
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And fortunately, as time has gone on, more things have been added to the inventory and and still more things to come.
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So I think the difference is, whether we're chasing reasons or excuses.
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Because there's reasons not to do something.
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Like, so there is reasons that I shouldn't go into ministry.
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But those could have tripped over easily into excuses.
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And there's -- Excuse is just way to lie to ourself about, well, we don't really, really want to get after it. So, what we're using as-- what we are using as excuses or as reasons are actually just excuses to not do the thing that God has called us to do.
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If it's planting or it's ministry or talking to somebody, it's all the -- it's all the same sort of thing, right? It's the perspective of I'm not looking for an excuse to not do something, but I want to be aware of the reasons why-- the things I need to conquer before I can get to it.
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Yeah. When I first started in the district role, my very first, like, State of the Union address to our youth pastors - because I was the district youth director. It was my first event that we were running - and I talked about, Safe is dangerous.
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Like, in every sphere of your life, safe is the preferred course of action.
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But when it comes to faith, safe is dangerous.
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Because as soon as you start waiting for thing--. Like, soon as you take the faith out of it and start playing by safe, you're not doing it. And we're not talking about not being good stewards.
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Like, Michael, you have some thoughts around that of like, stewardship.
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This doesn't mean being irresponsible. But, our friends Dave Slater and Jason Small, taught you something around faith, as even it relates to finances when you're ready to go.
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Yeah. Well, that's the thing, right?
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When we hear, Oh, I need to be a good steward, what we always think of right away is finances.
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Yeah, we need to be financial good stewards and this sort of thing.
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But I think it goes much beyond finances.
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I think, you know -- and I'm glad the conversation is really headed towards risk here -- because I think if we're being leaders and we aren't taking risks for the kingdom, I actually would argue that we aren't being good stewards of what God has given us and what God has actually trusted us with, and the resources that He's trusted us with.
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And, yeah, I remember talking to my friend Jason, my friend Dave, and we were talking about some budget stuff. And I remember, Yeah, it was Dave at this point, he said, Oh, where's your faith line in the budget?
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And I said, What are you talking about? He said, Oh, you need a line that just says Faith.
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And you put a number there. And I said, Well, how much do you say?
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And he said, Oh well, just what do you have faith for?
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And I was like, I didn't realize this should be a budget line in my church budget.
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And I guess he was saying that -- And I don't know if I'm supposed to share this story, but I'll share it.
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But I guess Jason once, went to the church he was at.
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He was at the bank and they were looking through the church budget and they said, We're a little curious, what is this Faith line?
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And they're kind of just awkwardly like, Oh, that's just--, that's just what we have faith that is going to come in miraculously.
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And the banker's staring at them, just like, what is wrong with you people? You know?
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(Laughter) But I think that's important. If we want to be good stewards, that's a part of what it means to lead in God's kingdom.
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Anything, anything that you're going to do significantly for the Kingdom of God is-- requires faith.
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Because if you can do it on your own and without God's strength, leading, and direction, it's probably not the kingdom of God.
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It's not something that your--. If it's you that are--.
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Like, it's your vision and your idea and your execution, it's probably not going to have the same impact as if this coming alongside what the Kingdom of God is already doing and taking that risk.
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I remember my son was telling me one time -- when he was very little, he was, he would just watch all sorts of like National Geographic things.
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And one of the things that penguins do, once they get to the edge of a cliff, they jostle back and forth until one falls off.
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And they go in. And if they see the water is good, like they didn't get eaten by a killer whale or shark or whatever, then they all dive in right after.
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And I think leadership is that person that's sitting in the front, being willing to be jostled off and to jump into the new water.
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And when we think we're just not ready yet, leaders have to lead there.
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Because the general group won't go. Like, the people behind you are waiting to see if it's good and if it's safe.
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And you're not going to be perfect and you're not going to be right all the time.
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But you need to be--.
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Leaders, you have to lead this.
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You have to lead through this objection or you will not see those -- And forget about church multiplication, this is anything that you want to lead forward in.
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Jim, any thoughts?
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The thought that comes to mind is, even as you're talking and just before, with Michael talking, that when I heard we're not ready yet, I was thinking in terms of skills, inventory, resources.
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But I guess there's a readiness of heart and spirit and a readiness of resources.
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And I think, they may not follow the same timeline.
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So, you know, a hesitation with--. When your heart and your spirit is ready, maybe that's the first move, and you move before your resources are completely ready.
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So I think when we talk about readiness, what do we mean? Do we mean, like we're not--. When somebody says, I'm not ready to plant or I'm not ready to go into ministry or we're not ready to launch this project.
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I think we have to do a little bit of a deeper work and say, what do we mean by ready? Are we just emotionally ready?
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Energy, strength, time, effort, heart, spirit, or do we mean resources?
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And I think there's different roles that those play.
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We're doing this -- this house I'm in now -- we're doing some renovations. It's endless.
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And I have a real hard time getting motivated to do stuff, right?
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To just--.
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Oh, I'm not ready to re--, I'm not ready to renovate the kitchen.
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You know, I'm not ready to do that.
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But I trick myself by taking the next natural step.
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So I'm just going to go up and I'm just going to lay 12 pieces of flooring and call it a night.
00:18:01.730 --> 00:18:26.419
Well, that next natural step, you know, always turns into 50 pieces of flooring. And then then I'm done. So the overwhelm can be knocked out by doing a little bit of, Okay, I can't get myself motivated, but if I do the next natural thing I could do to move me toward the thing that would get me ready to do the thing, I can trick myself into getting more momentum than maybe I had just sitting on the couch.
00:18:26.420 --> 00:18:28.438
So I think there's a principle there too, for us in multiplication.
00:18:28.439 --> 00:18:38.837
It's one thing to say, I'm not ready, but are you doing anything to move you closer to readiness, even if it's small.
00:18:38.838 --> 00:18:38.840
Exactly, exactly.
00:18:38.842 --> 00:18:41.269
Rather than sitting around, saying, I'm not ready, I'm just not ready.
00:18:41.269 --> 00:18:42.229
We're not ready.
00:18:42.230 --> 00:18:47.509
But that next natural, small step will eventually create a momentum.
00:18:47.509 --> 00:18:48.888
And you've-- you're ready.
00:18:48.890 --> 00:18:49.999
You've launched, You've gone.
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:57.538
You've moved, before you even know that you had even started, because you've taken-- you took a series of small natural steps.
00:18:57.539 --> 00:19:05.807
And that's the danger, I think, of being, of saying I'm not ready is -- That's fine, as long as you're doing something active to get ready.
00:19:05.808 --> 00:19:06.808
Life or ministry.
00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:12.557
Jim, you're very wise on cold medication. You should be on it more.
00:19:12.558 --> 00:19:17.989
That was really good. (Laughter) I think you've I think you brought up something.
00:19:17.990 --> 00:19:26.328
I love your perspective and it's why we like having different perspectives. Because, to me, I'm just thinking emotionally, mentally, spiritually.
00:19:27.890 --> 00:19:31.338
And then, but then there's also like, Well, we also don't have a leader to go.
00:19:31.339 --> 00:19:32.509
We don't have a planter.
00:19:32.509 --> 00:19:34.788
We don't have funds saved.
00:19:34.789 --> 00:19:42.909
There's some practical. I think I know the answer to this, Michael, but, is there an order for readiness?
00:19:42.910 --> 00:19:46.598
You know, those two things that Jim brought up, you've done it.
00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:57.470
Is there an-- I think I know the answer, but like, I feel like you can't put the cart--. One's the cart, one's the horse. But why don't you talk about that? What do you need to get--?
00:19:58.990 --> 00:20:01.298
What do you need to do to get through this objection?
00:20:01.299 --> 00:20:02.108
Which one is first?
00:20:02.109 --> 00:20:03.818
What's the cart? What's the horse?
00:20:03.819 --> 00:20:09.368
Yeah. Well, and I think it comes down to -- it was mentioned right at the beginning.
00:20:09.369 --> 00:20:10.749
It's obedience.
00:20:10.750 --> 00:20:16.719
Right? And if God is calling us to do something, it doesn't matter what we have yet.
00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:20.288
We know that God is going to provide that as you, as you go.
00:20:20.289 --> 00:20:23.268
So I think it very much is, it starts with the heart.
00:20:23.269 --> 00:20:26.618
And it starts with what is God calling you to?
00:20:26.619 --> 00:20:37.659
And, you know, a couple of months ago, we had -- or recently-- we had the Multiply Network conference before district conference -- or before national conference, I should say.
00:20:37.660 --> 00:20:46.669
And I love what Bill Markham, Pastor Bill Markham, one of the speakers said. He said, Pray until you know that you know that you know.
00:20:46.670 --> 00:20:48.229
And then you just do it.
00:20:48.230 --> 00:20:51.588
You know, regardless of what leaders you have, regardless of what finances you have.
00:20:51.589 --> 00:20:56.659
If God is calling you to do something, you go and you do it. And here's the thing.
00:20:56.660 --> 00:21:08.028
We're not suggesting here on this podcast right now, okay, go do something extremely irresponsible and, you know, just say, I have faith that God's going to do it, so I'm going to do it. Woah, woah, pause for a second.
00:21:08.029 --> 00:21:09.828
Is God calling you to that?
00:21:09.829 --> 00:21:14.509
Not just do you want to see that happen? Is God calling you specifically?
00:21:14.509 --> 00:21:15.348
Okay, perfect.
00:21:15.349 --> 00:21:23.628
Go, go and do it. Because He's going to provide the resources and the finances as you go. And honestly, He'll provide the leaders as you go as well.
00:21:23.630 --> 00:21:35.689
I remember when we were planting in our second spot - or replanting our second spot - I remember the person that we had as our location pastor, she looked at me and she said, okay, we've got a couple of months.
00:21:35.690 --> 00:21:39.002
We still don't have our youth pastor yet. We still don't have our kids pastor yet.
00:21:39.003 --> 00:21:43.999
And she started going through some leaders that we don't have yet and she said, What do we do?
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:47.353
And I looked back and I said, Well, what we do is we pray.
00:21:47.354 --> 00:21:59.148
And I looked back -- and I meant it, though. Genuinely, I was not worried. I said -- Her name is Eliza -- I said, Eliza, the right people will come in time.
00:21:59.150 --> 00:22:00.499
And what do you know?
00:22:00.500 --> 00:22:07.159
Three months later, we launched off that service with exactly who we, who we needed.
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:14.598
And it's funny, we joke about that conversation looking back and it's like, yeah, we kind of went through the pools that we knew people that could do it.
00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:20.358
And we strategically reached out to different people and, you know, put the posting out there, and this sort of thing.
00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:33.618
But it came down to, nope, God's calling us to this, and He's going to provide. And honestly, if it comes to launch day and there aren't certain people in place, you know what? As long as we're walking in obedience then, then we didn't need those people.
00:22:33.619 --> 00:22:38.118
We didn't need those leaders. Because if God's called us to it, He's going to provide for it.
00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:43.068
So I think it really comes down to discerning God, where are you calling us to do this?
00:22:43.069 --> 00:22:51.288
And -- this is just my conviction -- I believe all of us are, to some degree, called to be involved in planting and involved in church multiplication.
00:22:51.289 --> 00:22:56.449
So it's more, it's not God, am I called to this? It's God, I know I'm called to this.
00:22:56.450 --> 00:22:58.489
But how is it that I'm involved?
00:22:58.490 --> 00:23:01.338
Is it through our church just doing it on our own?
00:23:01.339 --> 00:23:03.259
Is it through partnering with other churches?
00:23:03.259 --> 00:23:06.858
Is it finding an existing church plant that's already started that we can go support?
00:23:06.859 --> 00:23:09.558
It's more figuring out where you fit in that.
00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:10.608
And I --.
00:23:10.609 --> 00:23:11.778
Yeah, that's what I think.
00:23:11.779 --> 00:23:13.848
That's what I would say. That's the order of it.
00:23:13.849 --> 00:23:18.048
Yeah. And I--, I figured you would go there, because that's where it was in my--.
00:23:18.049 --> 00:23:21.739
You got to get it clear, between you and the Lord, that this is something you're called to.
00:23:21.740 --> 00:23:26.441
And at the end of the day, we have to remind ourselves that Jesus is the senior pastor of His church.
00:23:26.442 --> 00:23:35.118
And He's the one that sends and He's the one that says go, and calls, and is leading.
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:40.945
And you're right, we believe every church can be a multiplying church, because if you have Jesus at the center, you have kingdom DNA.
00:23:40.946 --> 00:23:44.058
And kingdom DNA always has seed.
00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:46.278
So you can choose to eat the seed, or you can plant it.
00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:49.162
And I think Jesus always wanted us to plant the seed.
00:23:49.163 --> 00:23:52.818
Talks lots about that throughout the scriptures.
00:23:52.819 --> 00:24:09.138
And so I think, we believe that inside every single Bible believing, Jesus loving, Spirit led church is kingdom multiplication, and it's available for everyone.
00:24:09.140 --> 00:24:12.679
Jim, you talked about natural next steps.
00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:20.059
Do you have any other thoughts around those natural next steps for people who are like, I've never thought of planting.
00:24:20.060 --> 00:24:33.808
But, if you believe--. Like if we have kingdom DNA inside of us, and multiplication is inside of us by virtue of the kingdom of God, maybe we need to start thinking about this.
00:24:33.809 --> 00:24:42.298
What's a natural next step for someone to go, Okay, maybe our church, or our leadership, or our ministry can be multiplying.
00:24:42.299 --> 00:24:43.500
Any thoughts around that, Jim?
00:24:45.210 --> 00:24:46.380
Just two come to mind.
00:24:47.460 --> 00:25:00.088
At the appropriate time -- First one-- At the appropriate time, it's good to have a conversation with somebody about the dream or the thing that the Lord might be telling you.
00:25:00.089 --> 00:25:06.209
There's something happens when we vocalize and verbalize that thing that we think God might be saying to us.
00:25:06.210 --> 00:25:09.659
It's good to let it sit in our hearts and our spirits for a season.
00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:14.249
But something happens when we say it to somebody that we trust and they can explore it with us.
00:25:14.250 --> 00:25:25.588
So moving it from a thought or an impression or something internal to something external does something to us in ministry, or multiplication, a number of things.
00:25:25.589 --> 00:25:31.858
The other thing that comes to mind is to get really honest about what is actually missing.
00:25:31.859 --> 00:25:34.588
So this happens all the time in the coaching world.
00:25:34.589 --> 00:25:37.979
A person will say, Well, I'm not ready to do that thing that they know they should do.
00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:41.548
I'm not, I'm not ready and I need to get some things in place.
00:25:41.549 --> 00:25:46.199
And so they will say to them, what's missing?
00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:58.618
And when they start to take account of what's actually missing, they find that they're more ready than they thought, and the things that were missing could actually be found quicker with a little bit of creative thinking.
00:25:58.619 --> 00:26:10.888
Or maybe the answers are already kind of there, as as they explore what is actually--. So get really honest about, What is it that we're not ready--, what area are we not ready in?
00:26:10.890 --> 00:26:13.299
And maybe we're more ready than we think we are.
00:26:15.329 --> 00:26:16.409
We've got some--.
00:26:16.410 --> 00:26:39.781
We have a tool that we want to, at the end of the podcast, make available for you for free, around a short survey to determine whether your church is ready, and the seven areas, perhaps, that you could grow in even now to start doing that. I think another natural next step is, hey, we're not ready to plant, but maybe you can partner.
00:26:39.782 --> 00:26:45.328
Maybe somewhere you can, you know, find a church planter.
00:26:45.329 --> 00:26:54.580
Say, hey, we want to pray for your church. We want to come help you with your children's program some week or, you know, hey, do you need stuff done on your building or whatever.
00:26:54.582 --> 00:26:56.380
That we're in this together.
00:26:56.381 --> 00:27:06.538
And just being around achurch plant and the people who are planting it's like -- there's something that rubs off on you that's just really, really good.
00:27:06.539 --> 00:27:14.459
And so I think that's another next step, is just be around people who are doing it and talking about it and thinking about it.
00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:20.249
So obviously, so the statement is, We just aren't ready yet.
00:27:21.390 --> 00:27:29.519
And the leader is saying, I'm not ready as a leader for church multiplication and neither is my church. The counter statement we're saying now is this.
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:39.460
No one is ever 100% fully ready, which is a gift, because it teaches us to rely on God.
00:27:41.099 --> 00:27:45.479
There's got to be something in the Bible about this, isn't there, Michael?
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:46.346
You're the resident Bible--.
00:27:46.347 --> 00:27:52.409
We need, like, some special music for Devotional Time with Michael.
00:27:52.410 --> 00:27:53.898
Okay, over you, Michael.
00:27:53.900 --> 00:28:00.280
(Big band music starts playing) Devotional Time with Michael.
00:28:00.281 --> 00:28:05.128
Yeah, that's right. Well, I love that counter statement of, Yeah, it's okay you're not ready.
00:28:05.130 --> 00:28:06.239
Let's acknowledge that.
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:18.778
But it's okay, because God's with you, you know. And just, even before I read a quick scripture here, it's -- Think of, think of--, there's lots of things in life that you're never going to be ready for.
00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:23.219
Right. And I think I heard Jim say this once, Were you ready before you had a child?
00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:24.929
Absolutely not, right?
00:28:24.930 --> 00:28:27.130
Were you ready before you got married? Fully? 100%?
00:28:28.170 --> 00:28:29.608
Absolutely not.
00:28:29.609 --> 00:28:33.868
A lot of the time you're building the thing in the air. You're figuring out as you go.
00:28:33.869 --> 00:28:38.308
And I think that really applies to church multiplication.
00:28:38.309 --> 00:28:47.638
But no, the scripture I would want to encourage everyone listening to, is just this classic Bible Sunday School story.
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:48.640
8.
00:28:50.069 --> 00:28:54.598
"When Simon Peter saw this..." So he just saw Jesus perform the miracle.
00:28:54.599 --> 00:28:57.778
"...he fell at Jesus's knees and said, Go away from me, Lord.
00:28:57.779 --> 00:29:03.209
I'm a sinful man." And then what happened next is Jesus said, Oh yeah, true, you're not ready for my kingdom.
00:29:03.210 --> 00:29:07.288
Bye bye. No, that's not what He did! It says, "Don't be afraid.
00:29:07.289 --> 00:29:17.788
From now on, you're fishing for people. And then they left everything and followed Him." So listen, Peter, who is the leader of the twelve disciples, he's the one who preached on Pentecost.
00:29:17.789 --> 00:29:21.298
This, you know, this is a legendary historical figure.
00:29:21.299 --> 00:29:22.618
He wasn't ready either.
00:29:22.619 --> 00:29:23.578
And what does Jesus do?
00:29:23.579 --> 00:29:24.568
He looks in the eyes.
00:29:24.569 --> 00:29:26.999
It says, No, no, no, it's okay.
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:27.778
Follow me.
00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:29.848
Following me is the key.
00:29:29.849 --> 00:29:39.449
And I would just encourage every single person, every leader listening, saying, you know, that desire is in my heart, that would be so beautiful to do one day, to be involved in church planting.
00:29:39.450 --> 00:29:40.888
But I'm just not ready yet.
00:29:40.890 --> 00:29:49.588
Listen, I would -- I would just challenge that and say, I believe Jesus is looking in your eyes, saying, just come follow me. Just stick with me.
00:29:49.589 --> 00:29:52.528
I'm going to lead you the way that you need to be led.
00:29:52.529 --> 00:29:54.598
Don't think little of yourself.
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:57.898
The Spirit of God lives inside of you. Stop thinking little.
00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:00.279
And God's going to do beautiful things.
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:02.548
I totally agree.
00:30:02.549 --> 00:30:08.249
Jim, you talked about that passage of scripture, No one builds a building without counting the cost.
00:30:08.250 --> 00:30:15.419
I think that there's something to that. Anything to add to that thought you said initially?
00:30:15.420 --> 00:30:22.199
No. Other than when you asked Michael for a scripture, it struck me that it's every Bible story, every Bible story.
00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:31.041
When God asks a leader and every time He called somebody in to do something for Him, like the three of us even, there just wasn't --we just weren't ready.
00:30:32.190 --> 00:30:35.009
And Jesus makes up the difference.
00:30:35.009 --> 00:30:45.669
It's I--. I was on a flight somewhere a while back. Sat next to a guy, and, you know, the inevitable happens when he says, what do you do for a living?
00:30:45.670 --> 00:30:52.798
And then I try to get -- before I get to say that I'm a pastor, I try to least have some sort of warmth in the conversation.
00:30:52.799 --> 00:31:04.999
But he went right after it, What you do for a living? And I said, I'm a pastor. And he said -- I've heard this so many times -- He said, I used to go to church.
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:07.729
And someday I'm going to go back.
00:31:07.730 --> 00:31:12.528
And then something like, When I get myself together, or, When I get my act together.
00:31:12.529 --> 00:31:17.659
When I get my ducks in a row or, When I get myself ready, then I'm going to come back.
00:31:17.660 --> 00:31:22.878
And it's such a sad conversation because Ready is --, Ready is just a myth.
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:25.788
It's the principle of the gospel that He does the work.
00:31:25.789 --> 00:31:30.169
He makes up the gap between who we are and what we can be in Him.
00:31:30.170 --> 00:31:31.308
It's a sad conversation.
00:31:31.309 --> 00:31:32.094
I think the principle applies.
00:31:32.095 --> 00:31:39.949
We're drawn to think of all this self, you know, self preparation and in our own strength.
00:31:39.950 --> 00:31:41.388
And there is some of that.
00:31:41.390 --> 00:31:58.530
But every Bible story, every character not ready, not prepared, but yet called and then anointed and the margin made up -- and even after called, after doing things wrought with failure, and still made ready by the Spirit.
00:31:58.531 --> 00:32:02.449
That's what came to mind when you asked the scripture.
00:32:02.450 --> 00:32:03.588
Yeah. That's great.
00:32:03.589 --> 00:32:04.940
That's a great catch.
00:32:06.049 --> 00:32:14.388
A friend of -- a mutual friend of all of ours, I think, would often say, God doesn't call the qualified.
00:32:14.390 --> 00:32:16.909
He qualifies the called.
00:32:16.910 --> 00:32:21.949
And it's just, that's it. We're never ready.
00:32:21.950 --> 00:32:22.950
Totally.
00:32:23.930 --> 00:32:31.459
But thank God that He does walk with us. And if we stay close to Him, we somehow find our way through it.
00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:33.019
So Jim shared a couple of things.
00:32:33.019 --> 00:32:46.039
Michael, any next steps, since we believe this counter statement that no one is ever 100% fully ready, which is a gift because it teaches us to rely on God, do you have any next steps for our podcast listeners?
00:32:47.150 --> 00:32:53.898
Yeah, I would just I would challenge every single person listening to take an honest evaluation.
00:32:53.900 --> 00:32:56.358
Are we in a comfortable spot?
00:32:56.359 --> 00:33:04.548
Or is there any area of our ministry life where we're taking a risk and it's, Oh boy, God better come through here.
00:33:04.549 --> 00:33:22.219
And if we can't say that, if we're not able to say that we're in a dependent spot, it's actually a really unhealthy place to be in our ministry. So I would challenge, you know, take a moment even, you know, press pause or once this podcast is done, take an honest self-reflection.
00:33:22.220 --> 00:33:25.999
Am I in a dangerously comfortable position?
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:27.378
Because we got to get out of that.
00:33:27.380 --> 00:33:28.219
We got to get to that.
00:33:28.220 --> 00:33:30.108
And I like what we said earlier.
00:33:30.109 --> 00:33:36.979
If we are not doing it as the leaders, good luck getting getting the people in our churches to do that.
00:33:36.980 --> 00:33:38.898
So I'd start with that.
00:33:38.900 --> 00:33:39.528
Yeah.
00:33:39.529 --> 00:33:40.729
Great.
00:33:40.730 --> 00:33:43.710
Jim, any final thoughts before we let you go?
00:33:44.960 --> 00:34:02.788
Yeah, just the one call to action button, I think, would be is if someone has an inkling, or a suspicion, or a hunch that they might be moving toward multiplication as a church, the button to push is to connect with the Multiple Network. To email you, Paul, and just say, hey, I'm thinking about this.
00:34:02.788 --> 00:34:06.588
Because the resources are there and they can be deployed as needed.
00:34:06.589 --> 00:34:14.599
So just when you have that first inkling, to take it, and that will start at least some exploration and maybe some momentum, that would be my call to action button.
00:34:14.599 --> 00:34:17.670
If we could put one in an audio file to contact the MN Network.
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:34.157
Yeah, great. Well, thanks guys, for being on the podcast is as always.You guys always come with great insights. And thanks, Michael, for being my co-host, Jim for being a guest again with us, talking about some of these objections.
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:35.688
So thanks guys for jumping on today.
00:34:36.710 --> 00:34:37.730
Hey, thanks. Good to see you.
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:39.199
Thanks, Paul.
00:34:39.201 --> 00:34:49.818
Well, thanks, everybody, also to you for listening and sticking out to the end. I did mention we do have a resource as part of our Every Church a Multiplying Church initiative.
00:34:49.820 --> 00:34:57.679
If you go to EveryChurch.ca, there is a readiness assessment that is free to download.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:34:59.898
So you can have that.
00:34:59.900 --> 00:35:10.969
If you want to have a follow up call with someone in the Multiply Network. We have, not just myself, we have others that are participating in the leadership. We'd be happy to connect you.
00:35:10.969 --> 00:35:17.088
But what I like about this readiness assessment, it's just it'll take you like, I don't know, maybe ten minutes.
00:35:17.090 --> 00:35:23.730
And it talks about seven key areas that we think are important for a church as we think about being ready.
00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:27.469
These are some areas -- and again, this is not exhaustive.
00:35:27.469 --> 00:35:46.639
It's 35 questions -- but it talks about, it surveys topics around compassion for the unchurched, engaging environments, great commission focus, leadership development pathways, confidence in God's ability -- So that's that faith piece we just talked about -- kingdom mindset and generosity.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:51.067
We think that those are some of the areas that, hey, you can start readying yourself in.
00:35:51.068 --> 00:35:58.489
So even though you maybe are scoring lower in an area, why don't you reach out to us?
00:35:58.489 --> 00:36:10.159
We'd love to have a conversation about, Hey, how can you get a little bit higher? Because we see churches that reach these thresholds often are ready to multiply-- again, not fully ready.
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:12.829
This is just a little survey to help you.
00:36:12.829 --> 00:36:15.708
We've got lots of resources on there.
00:36:15.710 --> 00:36:21.858
We have some cohorts happening this fall around being a multiplying church. We'd love for you to be a part of that.
00:36:21.860 --> 00:36:32.208
The deadline is coming up pretty early here, at the beginning of the fall. At the time of this recording, it's mid-August, but this fall, we're going to be launching some Multiplying Church Cohorts.
00:36:32.210 --> 00:36:33.559
Other things are there.
00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:37.489
We'd love for you to take advantage of all of those free resources.
00:36:37.489 --> 00:36:45.349
Again, thanks so much for jumping on today and we'll be hitting our next objection next podcast.
00:36:45.349 --> 00:36:46.429
So thanks so much.
00:36:46.429 --> 00:36:49.199
Appreciate you all and hope you have an excellent day.
00:36:50.989 --> 00:36:51.889
Well, thanks for listening.
00:36:51.889 --> 00:36:54.768
Today we trust this conversation was encouraging.
00:36:54.769 --> 00:37:01.188
If you want more information on church multiplication resources or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey,
00:37:02.146 --> 00:37:03.146
MultiplyNetwork@PAOC.org.
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:07.079
Until next time.
