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This is one of several interviews on innovation, business and sustainability. For the students studying the MSc in MSc in sustainable resources at UCL. My name is David bent, and I'm an honorary lecturer at the UCL Institute for Sustainable resources, and CO lead for the module on eco innovation and sustainable entrepreneurship.
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Most of the course gives people the latest economic theory and insight, these 30 minute interviews are with practitioners to give some of the grit under the fingernails of innovating for sustainability today. And I'm delighted to say we're joined by Allison Ward, who is the CEO of cotton Connect. Hello, Allison.
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Hi, David, great to be joining you today.
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Great to be joining you. Well, thanks very much. So what is your role and organisation?
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Yes, so I'm really lucky to lead a social enterprise called cotton connect, and we work right at the beginning of the cotton supply chain with the farmers.
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And then what's really important is, as our name suggests, we connect that cotton into global supply chains. And for me, it's it's such an opportunity to change how business operates.
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And not just look at philanthropic efforts, and, you know, improving lives and livelihoods of farmers, but really changing how business sees that cotton supply chain.
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And there's probably worth explaining a bit about for people about how complex that consequent chain is, and therefore what the need is for something like cotton Connect.
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Yes, absolutely. So cotton can be traded up to 10 times once it leaves the farmer.
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So along that journey, there's a number of different actors. So you've got the farmer, it goes to something called the Jin and there's a cotton seed within the cotton ball and the seed is taken out of the cotton ball and you let sort of end up with a sort of almost like a cotton wall. And then that goes into spinning. And then that goes to weaving. And then it goes further up into dyeing in manufacturing the manufacturing process. But that sounds really simple. But in within that there are middlemen, and they normally are men who trade in that cotton, and, you know, costs and sales between countries. You know, there's a lot of manufacturing in Bangladesh, for example. But Bangladesh is importing cotton mainly from lots of different countries. So you can see that it ends up being quite a complex supply chain. And I found as well, which is one of the reasons we're here is that people don't really want to share with you their source of materials, because they want to protect their business. So we've really tried to get behind the cost and supply chain to see what's going on who's selling to whom, where's it going? How much are they selling it for? Has that person been fairly rewarded?
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What's going on in those transactions. So that's, that's really our role in the supply chain.
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And there's this very complicated web from smallholder farmers in India, Pakistan, China, in particular, Sub Saharan Africa, and then through all of these different processes with these different middlemen into the manufacturing. And then the big brands, often who will be controlling the supply chain, but rarely owning any parts of it. And then eventually, it ends up in a shop or websites where it's bought by you, me. So it's an extremely complicated thing.
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And if you're brand new Levi's, and Nike, and you want to do something about being able to make claims about that supply chain, it's really difficult for you to see what's going on upstream beyond your first or second tier of suppliers.
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Yeah, so when I started 10 years ago, in the cotton sector, having worked in cocoa, which was chocolates and an amazing product to work with, there really wasn't that transparency in the supply chain. And that's something I really set out to do. And I was fortunate enough to meet the ethical trade controller at Primark, Catherine Stewart and we decided we would try and do what everyone said was impossible, which was to put that traceability in from farmer to garment. Until then, if you were a manufacturer, close clothes, you would fill in an order sheets and give it to your tier one supplier, you would be specifying the t shirt, the colour, you know, the weight of it, but you'd have no idea where that costume was coming from.
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You probably didn't at that point even know which country the cotton was coming from. So at this point, it was, you know, how could you possibly do that?
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Everyone said it was too difficult. It's an opaque supply chain. It's impossible. But I think Catherine and I are both both quite determined people we don't really like the web to begin with. And also one of our philosophies around innovation, and it's not my phrase. So it is something you'll have heard before is think big start small act now. And we started back in 2013, with a really small pilot.
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So 1251 female farmers, which is another story as well about working with women in cotton. So relatively a small group of farmers, that programme with Primark now reaches 300,000, farmers across Bangladesh, India and Pakistan. So 10 years on, we have a traceable supply chain from farmer to Garmin. And if you go in any Primark store, across Europe, and you look at their jeans, their T shirts, socks, all of the cotton in those products, it's all labelled, comes from, comes from our project. And we know the names of farmers. So we've gone from not knowing anything about the supply chain, to actually saying, I've met a farmer, I know where that farmer's cotton is going. So for me, that's really, really powerful. And I think, you know, as, as your students, you look at your career and what you're going to do. One of the other lessons, I think, is it takes time. I mean, this has been a 10 year journey to get here. So, you know, you set your ambitions, but they it does take a bit of time to actually.
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Well, I think we're saluting the role of Primark in that a company, which gets a lot of pushback for its fast fashion. But it's great that it's been part of creating this sort of social infrastructure that can show where the cotton is coming from, I want to move on to your role.
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So your chief executive, what does that mean? What do you get up to?
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So ultimately, I'm accountable for what goes on in the business. So that gives me great opportunities. So if we talk about innovation, there's the opportunity across and connect that our mission is to, to reimagine the future for supply chain. So if you think about reimagine that means innovation, doing things differently. But there's also the flip side of that, that I'm accountable to the 100 people that work for the organisation, or the smooth running of the organisation for financial success, to our partners who we employ to deliver our programmes and and of course, the farmers in our programme, as well. So it's a really wide ranging role.
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And it's not something I take lightly at all, because you have that accountability. But it's really for me, that's a sweet spot between a commercial role, but actually, I'm really changing lives and really delivering impact as a form level. And if you like, creating value from values, in its essence, so I'm really fortunate to have such a great role.
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Wonderful.
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And then how is sustainability framed within costume Connect?
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I think every everything we do is about sustainable cotton, and I and when we do an employee survey, I think 97% of people in the organisation work with us because of our sustainability framework. That said, I think it's about how you balance being a successful business. So in order for us to continue, we have to make sure that our books balance, we have to think about the future. So what what we did yesterday will be not what we do tomorrow. The more we work, the more we're successful than other people will brightly copy what we do. So this race of top. So I think for the team, sometimes it's quite hard that we have in our farm team, we have people who really, really worked out because of that passion about, you know, working with people social impact we're having. But we've got to balance that with the commercial needs of our customers as well. So it's always that balancing act between delivering our cyber programmes, but also making sure that we are commercially relevant and commercially viable.
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Yeah. And just to unpack a little bit on the impacts you're hoping to have in the supply chain. Do you have a higher priority to either environmental or social or how do you look at the issues which sit underneath sustainability?
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Yeah, really good question. What we've been really looking at recently is the ESG.
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goals come is and we've done a review, I think it was around 20 brands, looking at their ESG goals to ensure relevance. So the number one goal is around But fashion brands is around the cotton is sustainable. Number two is around traceability and transparency, we then go into human rights, which is obviously really coming up the agenda. So we, we can see that there are some really key priorities coming out of brands. I think for us at the moment, as a sector, there's a huge focus on the environment on greenhouse gas emissions. And there is a probably seen the illustration that's out there about this carbon tunnel vision that we're just looking at this carbon carbon lens. For me, I think the focus on the s in the ESG is so important. And particularly, we have a focus on women in the cotton supply chain. So quite often, it's the women that that do all the work. So they weed, they plant the seed, they weed again, they tend to crop, they water it, they harvest it, the men tend to then sell it so they get the cash. But if I asked quite often, if I'm talking say it's one of my colleagues in Pakistan, those women aren't even called farmers because they don't own the land. And I remember having quite a debate, but they are
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doing the farming but
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but yeah, so for me that the role of women in in agricultural supply chains, we know women are not recognised where the work, we know quite often they're not even trained and training programmes may be the trainer's may or may be the time of day is wrong for them to attend. And we certainly don't see them being rewarded. Because it's, you know, normally the men that go to market or sell to the trader that comes to the bench.
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And the very little bit I've been exposed to this sector, there's huge amounts of asymmetric power. So between the brands and supply chains, and then along the supply chains with those middlemen, the farmers, the smallholder farmers at the end of that supply chain, often have the least amount of information about what's going on. And therefore they're in the worst position to bargain for good prices in the worst position to know how to increase their skills and invest in making in producing their cotton in the most environmentally friendly kind of way. They're just in a way standard, or historically a sort of very little chance. And that's why it's so important that cotton connect can bring that insight and bring skills to bear for those smallholder farmers that they can increase their power and increase their sort of competence in the sustainable end of farming.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Part of our role is that knowledge sharing. So cotton is, is measured in a staple length.
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So that's literally how long the thread of cotton is, I think, from that. So the longer the staple, the more money you get for it. So we actually teach farmers to learn how to test the the staple length, their cost, it's really simple. So one of the things they can do, before they sell it is work out what they think their staple length is. And then when the trade the trader comes to buy it, they they're in a better bargaining position. And obviously access to the price of cotton, access to better quality. So the more often you get seeds and junk in the cotton, the more that it's picked better, the better you can get a price for it as well.
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So a lot about that knowledge transmits Some of it's quite simple. It's not a complex message. It's just about getting it to the right people in that village.
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And just one last question about the organisation before eyes for a story, which is just what how do you make your money to who pays you for what? For cutting Connect?
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Yeah, so we're funded by brands. So our model is almost like a consultancy model. So they pay us for services. And our services are around delivering agronomic training around traceability around other investments in the supply chain, maybe supply chain engagement. And we I've deliberately kept the model quite simple. So it's low entry point as well. So brands can come in and work with 50 farmers if they want. You know, if you want to start something, I've made it easy. We don't have lots of layers of complexity I've worked with, with other schemes where there's licence fees, there's layerings of costs.
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We've tried to keep it as simple as possible. So that it we're about impact. So we're about making impact farmers and we're about making impact in that supply chain working more effectively. And waddle.
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Wonderful.
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Thank you. So let's move On to innovation story. Can you tell us a story of a good example of some innovation that you've been involved with? Or you did within your organisation?
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Yes, so I cotton connect, we have a tool called trace that out. So it's a traceability platform. And earlier, David, you reference sort of claims and the claims agenda that's happening now. So we've got EU claims directive, we've put the competitive market authority in the UK giving guidance, there's the gym supply chain act coming out, it's come out, all of them are about but the lid validating the claim you're making. And for me, just your claim has to be based on traceability.
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And the you in this would be the shop or the brand that is selling.
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Sorry, yes, absolutely. So brands now if they want to make a claim on a garment to say it's sustainable, they have to have some evidence to show that they can make that claim. And for us in cotton, that has to be around tracing that cotton back from the garment right to the beginning of the supply chain. And over the last 10 years, we've been developing a traceability tool.
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So this is a tool that tracks the cotton from the village, right and right through up to the garment. And again, it's the 10 year journey when we started, how do you put how do you go into rural India and start to collect data at a farm level, when there's poor internet, there's our peak, can the people that are collecting the data train to collect data because, you know, rubbish in rubbish out if people aren't collecting it properly, then the data isn't really valid. So it's, I would say it took us three or four years to really have a robust platform. And I remember being in the gym. So this is where the second the first stage of process potom comes in. And it's separated out. And I was with tafel. And my colleague at the time, so when got his laptop out, and he showed live that the Tres Belle platform for them.
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And for me, it was a great moment, we'd got a working a working model that where we could take track that cotton for calm or right through. And I think the lessons for me is you have to find partners that are prepared to go on the journey.
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Partners, like can't fall like Primark that it's not going to be perfect. You know, especially if we're tackling something that's really hard to do, which is a traceability system, rather a commodity. And really, it's been a year. And they're prepared to say okay, well, we know it's not perfect, but we'll go on this journey. And we'll we'll help you develop it. I think that's really important.
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The other thing I think I really found was about mindset change.
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So, you know, we've got all these people trading cotton, we've got lots of interested parties, we really had to work closely with Genesis spinners for them to share their information to accept that they were going to put data into the platform. And that's about mindset change. And I mean, we know about the change curve, don't wait in life. But this is a real change curve, you know, a lot of denial going on. I remember one of my first meetings with the the t shirt manufacturers in Bangladesh, for Primark and I went in to talk about what we were doing. I was just, it was just folded arms in front of me. I were not doing it. It was not doing it. And now people are calling us up, say they want to be part of the programme. So this journey of taking people with you.
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Why were they? So? Was it just they're resistant to any change? Or did they fear that we're going to lose something specific? And what did they gain? Now? That means they were willing to overcome that that resistance?
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I think, I think everyone's worried about losing financially. So if I tell you where I'm buying my cotton from, are you going to just cut me out? Or if you know the price, I bought it out? Are you going to negotiate harder on prices? I don't have the flexibility. If I'm you know, I'm buying a bale of cotton as a spinner. If you're telling me to buy it from a certain a certain place, then I don't have that flexibility anymore as a as a as a spin. So lots of commercial reasons not to do it. I think the advantage has been that now one of the pieces of what we do is we get all of the actors in the supply chain together. So we will quite often have recorded supply chain meetings. So the brand is there gingers the spinners, manufacturers, maybe a former representative and they She talks about the challenges and issues in that supply chain. So that access to go the middle of the supply chain to really meet the brand and really understand what the brand is doing. And for the brand to hear from those, that that middle of that supply chain has been really powerful.
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And, you know, I remember doing it with caring, actually. And it was the first time everybody had just sat around a table together. It wasn't the easiest conversation either. I mean, these are not, you know, these are commercial conversations.
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But the fact that, you know, for the first time ever, in that supply chain they had met is just that moment of a dialogue that happens within within a complex supply chain.
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Absolutely.
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And I think there's a couple of things here in that one is a shift from a mindset of efficiency and flexibility. And arm's length transactions where you're trying to screw the other guy into the ground, frankly, is the sort of was the default previously. But if you can get in the room and trust each other, then you can have a supply chain, which is more based on effectiveness, and resilience and helping the whole supply chain to be better, rather than trying to maximise the efficiency of each individual part, which ironically, leads to the whole being less efficient and less effective. Because there's no spare capacity. There's no sort of redundancy and other kinds of things like this, I'm hearing like that, the that traceability and the role of costs and connecting creating trust, and relationships across that supply chain can then lead to a mindset shift, and a move away from commercial considerations drowning out everything else, to a wider set of considerations actually helping with commercial considerations. Is that fair way of describing it?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I think it's interesting if you're spinner in India, to have a conversation, which isn't just about price and quality, because there's lots of quality discussions about cotton, as you can imagine, and talk about sustainability, sustainable cotton, or, you know, and then thinking about their own processes and their factories as well. Is is a different shift again, isn't it? So you're bringing this sort of sustainability in its broadest sense, really, right into the supply chain, I think quite often in supply chains. At the moment, we're seeing agronomic interventions, and we might be seeing brand interventions, but that middle supply chain quite often is forgotten. And there's a lot of processing, there's a lot of energy use water use blah, blah, blah. So yeah, so really powerful. A really powerful dialogue.
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I just want to check with Carrefour is supermarket in France
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in plant based advanced global footprint. And
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hearing is again, I think French are headquartered company, but it's a house of brands, lots of different. Lots of different clothing and brands people have heard of, but I can't remember any of them off top my head, what it's worth they are that's one of those things. And I think the other thing, then moving on into the next question, so you've got the platform and the relationships, and there's lots of things you're doing. Do you have any particular methods or practices that you use for innovation for sustainability?
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Is there like a framework or a toolbox that you tend to say, oh, we need to innovate this?
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Let's let us use this method now.
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You Yeah, so we, I mean, we have a dedicated team.
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It's quite small team. And we call it commercial development.
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So we have a team that looks after that. And it's, you know, we have some dedicated investment that goes into that as well. And they've developed a methodology of it is a gate process. So an assessment of the programme, how it's relevant, the criteria for success. And then most recently, we've just we've, over the past year, we've done some different pilots, and the team have put together a scorecard. So we're scoring how that pilot has worked. And it's an against number of criteria in terms of effectiveness of the pilots relevance to is it? Is it marketable? Is it something brands more on? How is it relating to environmental and social goals? So then that innovation is scored? So I've just been called the scorings.
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yesterday with the team actually on our pilots so we can decide, which do we take forward and continue to invest in and which do we think perhaps, okay, we tried it, it didn't work. We're going to move forward, move on from that. And I think part of that the philosophy that we talked about is that some things won't work. Yeah. And if you are innovating, well, there's a moment that you kind of have to accept that the wheels fell off.
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So we were just looking at a warehousing model in cotton for organic to see whether that would unlock the organic market.
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So we would, the cotton would be produced by the farmers, we would then warehouse the organic cotton, before it then goes further into the supply chain.
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It it, we didn't, the team has spent a lot of time on it. And in the end, it wasn't going to not. That's it, it wasn't going to be a solution. But for me, the fact that we explored it and have discounted it is really important. Because organic has lots of challenges organic cotton at the moment. So the fact we can discuss one of the options as a solution is quite important for us. Yeah. So yeah.
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So there's odd, this idea generation from the team, which is really important. So I don't sit in London and come up with innovation. It's it's comes out of the teams, across the geographies where we work. And I think that's really important.
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And then we obviously do quite we use some of the more traditional methods to look at what's going on. So we just did a pestle review across all markets to look at future trends. Sure. Your students use that. So you will use some of the, you know, other tools as well, in terms of that you be expecting to see in terms of and we just refining our process.
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Yes. And I, I'm not sure everyone will know. But pestle is let's see if I can remember it political so that you're looking for trends.
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And the trends fall into these different categories and pestle as a way of remembering them. So political, economic, social, technological, legal, and environmental spending out there. And it's great to hear all of that. And it's worth remembering out of just to you.
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So you've got 100 People in cotton connect, been roughly speaking, where are they located? Just to give us a sense of where those ideas are
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coming from? Yeah, so 70% of our team is in India.
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Yeah. So, which is our biggest market, we still have a small team in team in China, we've got a team of about 10. In Bangladesh, this isn't going to add up soon. After Bangladesh, we made a Bangladesh is another story actually about how we really stimulated cotton growing in Bangladesh, as another cash crop there. And then small teams in Pakistan, as very, very small team in Egypt. And we're in our second year in Turkey. So really, that's one facet of how our team is spread. But only four of us in the UK. So which is really deliberate and quite unusual. If you look at INGOs.
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So international NGOs tend to have quite head offices here in the UK.
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Yes. And I mean, what you're doing this speaks to trying to a process through. It was right, we're putting it part of what's going on here is it's disproportionately Western consumers buying these fashion products, these garments. And so there's the power is on the money isn't one area, richer economies and the work and the potential for injustice. And the potential for environmental impact is in the global south is in the majority well, so these, as you say things important that costs and connecting anyone who's working to make a difference, tries to reflect those people who's trying to make a difference for rather than imposing from from these richer countries. And the other thing I just wanted to pick up from your when you're talking about the innovation management was how you thought of this as an investment, and the stage gates and having the discipline to say no to things even when you you really want it to succeed. And even though you've got a lot of sunk cost that has gone into it, you can still go, actually, this isn't working.
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It's great that you've done this to find this out. And we've got lessons which apply elsewhere.
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But we should think of it as a success to find out that it's not going to work rather than to think of it as a failure. This is a very important little insight for us all.
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Yeah, definitely.
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And also, it's about the mindset with the team. So guy down in our team in India, who did all the work on the warehousing. I said to him, you know, it had it, we should celebrate the fact that you've done all the work and we decided not to progress it. That is success for me. And I think quite often in business, we kind of we don't really we don't really understand you don't we only celebrate things at work, don't we rather than saying okay, we've learned something here and I do think it's switching around that mindset a little bit.
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Yes, absolutely. Last few questions.
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What are the biggest challenges you face and how do you overcome them?
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I think it is about people. And wherever you turn, it's about taking people on that journey with you. And I talked right at the beginning that we worked with female farmers in India, I know our programme.
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That was such a big shift, because even in my farm team knows this, why are we training the women? You know? So I think for me, it's about how you take people on that journey. And people are individuals. So, you know, it's it's each Jenner, it's each spinner. It's the individuals in the brands that have the vision for the future, and how do you give them the tools and the messages to invest further and take that further into their organisation? So I think it's about inspiring people to change. Yeah,
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so I'm hearing a lot of challenges of resistance, and the ways of overcoming partly your own determination, but also the attention to individuals and relationships. There's as a theme I hear, if there was one thing policymakers could do, which would make your work significant, easily easier. What would that be?
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Yeah, good question. I'm not very fond of policy and regulation, mostly as a tool. But I think there are two things for me. One is at the moment, we talked about all the various claims legislation going on. It's really fragmented, right? So each, each member state in the EU seems to have its own framework, you will have its own framework, the UK has got its own framework, the US has got its own framework. It's really, I think it's really tricky, because there's just so much similar legislation, but not the same. So you know, that harmonisation would be amazing, but probably impossible. And I think maybe the other thing is that, you know, we look at climate change, and we talk about climate change. But I think that as policymakers, we need to see it through the lens of smallholder farmers, as they are really at the, the, they're really being affected by climate change. So we're seeing already the effects in in cotton production, climate change. So increased pest attacks, women having to work harder and longer, longer hours, water, go further water, cows not being as productive, etc, etc. So I think for policymakers, it's that kind of understanding of, you know, not just the big impacts of climate change, and, you know, all the great platforms, but also thinking through from the fragility of some, some of the people in the supply chain.
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Absolutely.
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And I think as we speak, there is a 40 degree heat wave going on through rural India. So if we can expect to become more and more common, and we'll make growing and all kinds of things or more difficult. And last question about the future. So what are your What are complex priorities on innovation going forward? And why?
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Yes, I think you've heard a thread through my personal journey across and connects about women, I think, we are looking at how we measure and reduce greenhouse gas emissions, how I worked as that.
00:33:19.318 --> 00:34:05.459
But we also were just putting, putting the work in the next three years strategy. And women will be part of that. And they be looking at Jen, looking at this through a gender lens, because, you know, we, we saw actually that issues around gender had dropped out of the priorities or brands. So we do an annual customer survey, and social issues and gender had been further up and now they had dropped back. I think it's coming back. So for me, there is a piece about how do we keep empowering women? What's their roles in this changing scenario as weather patterns change? How?
00:34:05.788 --> 00:34:17.699
How do we build their confidence build their entrepreneurial skills? So I think that it's part of my personal passion. I think that obviously, climate climate climate at the moment, I think, for the sector,
00:34:18.090 --> 00:34:20.340
yes.
00:34:18.090 --> 00:35:01.380
Wonderful. Well, and I think that joins together another part of the threads that I hear here, and from my own tiny experience of fashion supply chains, which is in supply chains more generally. Those who are in have the least amount of power are given the highest amount of risk, the risk sort of accumulates to them. And that's in this instance, as it's often are the women who are working in that supply chain. And the biggest risk is often to do with climate change in not just mitigation, but adaptation, how are we going to cope with what is now baked in? So I think it's really there's also shows the way in which what traditionally have been thought of as separate issues, environmental and social actually deeply intertwined together,
00:35:02.849 --> 00:35:05.820
we've got some, it's only really just started.
00:35:05.849 --> 00:35:37.289
And we've got some climate change ambassadors and say it's a village level. So the idea is that the women rather than being seen as victims of climate change, which obviously they're really all facing, the impacts are actually part of the solution. And we're giving them the tools and the knowledge to influence locally. And I hope that they will also become a group that feedback to us. So I've asked to have our first focus group with them, so we can hear from them about what what they want to tell us about what's happening in our communities.
00:35:37.469 --> 00:36:00.389
That's wonderful, wonderful, positive to note note, making people into agents of change in the face of such difficult situations, and which is a great note for us to close on. So thank you very much, Alison. You've been listening to the Chief Executive of compact as award as we've been talking about innovation, business and sustainability.
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:04.409
Thank you very much for listening, and we'll be along soon with the next episode.
00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:25.109
This is one of several interviews on innovation, business and sustainability. For the students studying the MSc in MSc in sustainable resources at UCL. My name is David bent, and I'm an honorary lecturer at the UCL Institute for Sustainable resources, and CO lead for the module on eco innovation and sustainable entrepreneurship.
00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:42.450
Most of the course gives people the latest economic theory and insight, these 30 minute interviews are with practitioners to give some of the grit under the fingernails of innovating for sustainability today. And I'm delighted to say we're joined by Allison Ward, who is the CEO of cotton Connect. Hello, Allison.
00:00:43.590 --> 00:00:45.929
Hi, David, great to be joining you today.
00:00:45.988 --> 00:00:50.579
Great to be joining you. Well, thanks very much. So what is your role and organisation?
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Yes, so I'm really lucky to lead a social enterprise called cotton connect, and we work right at the beginning of the cotton supply chain with the farmers.
00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:16.650
And then what's really important is, as our name suggests, we connect that cotton into global supply chains. And for me, it's it's such an opportunity to change how business operates.
00:01:16.950 --> 00:01:27.000
And not just look at philanthropic efforts, and, you know, improving lives and livelihoods of farmers, but really changing how business sees that cotton supply chain.
00:01:28.739 --> 00:01:39.569
And there's probably worth explaining a bit about for people about how complex that consequent chain is, and therefore what the need is for something like cotton Connect.
00:01:40.950 --> 00:01:50.370
Yes, absolutely. So cotton can be traded up to 10 times once it leaves the farmer.
00:01:44.370 --> 00:03:06.120
So along that journey, there's a number of different actors. So you've got the farmer, it goes to something called the Jin and there's a cotton seed within the cotton ball and the seed is taken out of the cotton ball and you let sort of end up with a sort of almost like a cotton wall. And then that goes into spinning. And then that goes to weaving. And then it goes further up into dyeing in manufacturing the manufacturing process. But that sounds really simple. But in within that there are middlemen, and they normally are men who trade in that cotton, and, you know, costs and sales between countries. You know, there's a lot of manufacturing in Bangladesh, for example. But Bangladesh is importing cotton mainly from lots of different countries. So you can see that it ends up being quite a complex supply chain. And I found as well, which is one of the reasons we're here is that people don't really want to share with you their source of materials, because they want to protect their business. So we've really tried to get behind the cost and supply chain to see what's going on who's selling to whom, where's it going? How much are they selling it for? Has that person been fairly rewarded?
00:03:03.150 --> 00:03:09.659
What's going on in those transactions. So that's, that's really our role in the supply chain.
00:03:10.169 --> 00:03:40.800
And there's this very complicated web from smallholder farmers in India, Pakistan, China, in particular, Sub Saharan Africa, and then through all of these different processes with these different middlemen into the manufacturing. And then the big brands, often who will be controlling the supply chain, but rarely owning any parts of it. And then eventually, it ends up in a shop or websites where it's bought by you, me. So it's an extremely complicated thing.
00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:53.699
And if you're brand new Levi's, and Nike, and you want to do something about being able to make claims about that supply chain, it's really difficult for you to see what's going on upstream beyond your first or second tier of suppliers.
00:03:55.199 --> 00:04:47.550
Yeah, so when I started 10 years ago, in the cotton sector, having worked in cocoa, which was chocolates and an amazing product to work with, there really wasn't that transparency in the supply chain. And that's something I really set out to do. And I was fortunate enough to meet the ethical trade controller at Primark, Catherine Stewart and we decided we would try and do what everyone said was impossible, which was to put that traceability in from farmer to garment. Until then, if you were a manufacturer, close clothes, you would fill in an order sheets and give it to your tier one supplier, you would be specifying the t shirt, the colour, you know, the weight of it, but you'd have no idea where that costume was coming from.
00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:54.870
You probably didn't at that point even know which country the cotton was coming from. So at this point, it was, you know, how could you possibly do that?
00:04:54.870 --> 00:05:28.079
Everyone said it was too difficult. It's an opaque supply chain. It's impossible. But I think Catherine and I are both both quite determined people we don't really like the web to begin with. And also one of our philosophies around innovation, and it's not my phrase. So it is something you'll have heard before is think big start small act now. And we started back in 2013, with a really small pilot.
00:05:21.420 --> 00:06:31.620
So 1251 female farmers, which is another story as well about working with women in cotton. So relatively a small group of farmers, that programme with Primark now reaches 300,000, farmers across Bangladesh, India and Pakistan. So 10 years on, we have a traceable supply chain from farmer to Garmin. And if you go in any Primark store, across Europe, and you look at their jeans, their T shirts, socks, all of the cotton in those products, it's all labelled, comes from, comes from our project. And we know the names of farmers. So we've gone from not knowing anything about the supply chain, to actually saying, I've met a farmer, I know where that farmer's cotton is going. So for me, that's really, really powerful. And I think, you know, as, as your students, you look at your career and what you're going to do. One of the other lessons, I think, is it takes time. I mean, this has been a 10 year journey to get here. So, you know, you set your ambitions, but they it does take a bit of time to actually.
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Well, I think we're saluting the role of Primark in that a company, which gets a lot of pushback for its fast fashion. But it's great that it's been part of creating this sort of social infrastructure that can show where the cotton is coming from, I want to move on to your role.
00:06:49.559 --> 00:06:52.588
So your chief executive, what does that mean? What do you get up to?
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So ultimately, I'm accountable for what goes on in the business. So that gives me great opportunities. So if we talk about innovation, there's the opportunity across and connect that our mission is to, to reimagine the future for supply chain. So if you think about reimagine that means innovation, doing things differently. But there's also the flip side of that, that I'm accountable to the 100 people that work for the organisation, or the smooth running of the organisation for financial success, to our partners who we employ to deliver our programmes and and of course, the farmers in our programme, as well. So it's a really wide ranging role.
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And it's not something I take lightly at all, because you have that accountability. But it's really for me, that's a sweet spot between a commercial role, but actually, I'm really changing lives and really delivering impact as a form level. And if you like, creating value from values, in its essence, so I'm really fortunate to have such a great role.
00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:10.499
Wonderful.
00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:12.928
And then how is sustainability framed within costume Connect?
00:08:15.360 --> 00:09:26.909
I think every everything we do is about sustainable cotton, and I and when we do an employee survey, I think 97% of people in the organisation work with us because of our sustainability framework. That said, I think it's about how you balance being a successful business. So in order for us to continue, we have to make sure that our books balance, we have to think about the future. So what what we did yesterday will be not what we do tomorrow. The more we work, the more we're successful than other people will brightly copy what we do. So this race of top. So I think for the team, sometimes it's quite hard that we have in our farm team, we have people who really, really worked out because of that passion about, you know, working with people social impact we're having. But we've got to balance that with the commercial needs of our customers as well. So it's always that balancing act between delivering our cyber programmes, but also making sure that we are commercially relevant and commercially viable.
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Yeah. And just to unpack a little bit on the impacts you're hoping to have in the supply chain. Do you have a higher priority to either environmental or social or how do you look at the issues which sit underneath sustainability?
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Yeah, really good question. What we've been really looking at recently is the ESG.
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goals come is and we've done a review, I think it was around 20 brands, looking at their ESG goals to ensure relevance. So the number one goal is around But fashion brands is around the cotton is sustainable. Number two is around traceability and transparency, we then go into human rights, which is obviously really coming up the agenda. So we, we can see that there are some really key priorities coming out of brands. I think for us at the moment, as a sector, there's a huge focus on the environment on greenhouse gas emissions. And there is a probably seen the illustration that's out there about this carbon tunnel vision that we're just looking at this carbon carbon lens. For me, I think the focus on the s in the ESG is so important. And particularly, we have a focus on women in the cotton supply chain. So quite often, it's the women that that do all the work. So they weed, they plant the seed, they weed again, they tend to crop, they water it, they harvest it, the men tend to then sell it so they get the cash. But if I asked quite often, if I'm talking say it's one of my colleagues in Pakistan, those women aren't even called farmers because they don't own the land. And I remember having quite a debate, but they are
00:11:17.038 --> 00:11:18.239
doing the farming but
00:11:19.110 --> 00:11:48.509
but yeah, so for me that the role of women in in agricultural supply chains, we know women are not recognised where the work, we know quite often they're not even trained and training programmes may be the trainer's may or may be the time of day is wrong for them to attend. And we certainly don't see them being rewarded. Because it's, you know, normally the men that go to market or sell to the trader that comes to the bench.
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And the very little bit I've been exposed to this sector, there's huge amounts of asymmetric power. So between the brands and supply chains, and then along the supply chains with those middlemen, the farmers, the smallholder farmers at the end of that supply chain, often have the least amount of information about what's going on. And therefore they're in the worst position to bargain for good prices in the worst position to know how to increase their skills and invest in making in producing their cotton in the most environmentally friendly kind of way. They're just in a way standard, or historically a sort of very little chance. And that's why it's so important that cotton connect can bring that insight and bring skills to bear for those smallholder farmers that they can increase their power and increase their sort of competence in the sustainable end of farming.
00:12:43.500 --> 00:12:46.110
Yeah, absolutely.
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Part of our role is that knowledge sharing. So cotton is, is measured in a staple length.
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So that's literally how long the thread of cotton is, I think, from that. So the longer the staple, the more money you get for it. So we actually teach farmers to learn how to test the the staple length, their cost, it's really simple. So one of the things they can do, before they sell it is work out what they think their staple length is. And then when the trade the trader comes to buy it, they they're in a better bargaining position. And obviously access to the price of cotton, access to better quality. So the more often you get seeds and junk in the cotton, the more that it's picked better, the better you can get a price for it as well.
00:13:40.350 --> 00:13:50.730
So a lot about that knowledge transmits Some of it's quite simple. It's not a complex message. It's just about getting it to the right people in that village.
00:13:50.789 --> 00:14:00.240
And just one last question about the organisation before eyes for a story, which is just what how do you make your money to who pays you for what? For cutting Connect?
00:14:01.110 --> 00:14:46.470
Yeah, so we're funded by brands. So our model is almost like a consultancy model. So they pay us for services. And our services are around delivering agronomic training around traceability around other investments in the supply chain, maybe supply chain engagement. And we I've deliberately kept the model quite simple. So it's low entry point as well. So brands can come in and work with 50 farmers if they want. You know, if you want to start something, I've made it easy. We don't have lots of layers of complexity I've worked with, with other schemes where there's licence fees, there's layerings of costs.
00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:57.870
We've tried to keep it as simple as possible. So that it we're about impact. So we're about making impact farmers and we're about making impact in that supply chain working more effectively. And waddle.
00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:00.750
Wonderful.
00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:09.750
Thank you. So let's move On to innovation story. Can you tell us a story of a good example of some innovation that you've been involved with? Or you did within your organisation?
00:15:11.370 --> 00:15:44.159
Yes, so I cotton connect, we have a tool called trace that out. So it's a traceability platform. And earlier, David, you reference sort of claims and the claims agenda that's happening now. So we've got EU claims directive, we've put the competitive market authority in the UK giving guidance, there's the gym supply chain act coming out, it's come out, all of them are about but the lid validating the claim you're making. And for me, just your claim has to be based on traceability.
00:15:44.308 --> 00:15:48.298
And the you in this would be the shop or the brand that is selling.
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Sorry, yes, absolutely. So brands now if they want to make a claim on a garment to say it's sustainable, they have to have some evidence to show that they can make that claim. And for us in cotton, that has to be around tracing that cotton back from the garment right to the beginning of the supply chain. And over the last 10 years, we've been developing a traceability tool.
00:16:12.690 --> 00:17:11.670
So this is a tool that tracks the cotton from the village, right and right through up to the garment. And again, it's the 10 year journey when we started, how do you put how do you go into rural India and start to collect data at a farm level, when there's poor internet, there's our peak, can the people that are collecting the data train to collect data because, you know, rubbish in rubbish out if people aren't collecting it properly, then the data isn't really valid. So it's, I would say it took us three or four years to really have a robust platform. And I remember being in the gym. So this is where the second the first stage of process potom comes in. And it's separated out. And I was with tafel. And my colleague at the time, so when got his laptop out, and he showed live that the Tres Belle platform for them.
00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:29.910
And for me, it was a great moment, we'd got a working a working model that where we could take track that cotton for calm or right through. And I think the lessons for me is you have to find partners that are prepared to go on the journey.
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Partners, like can't fall like Primark that it's not going to be perfect. You know, especially if we're tackling something that's really hard to do, which is a traceability system, rather a commodity. And really, it's been a year. And they're prepared to say okay, well, we know it's not perfect, but we'll go on this journey. And we'll we'll help you develop it. I think that's really important.
00:17:50.940 --> 00:17:58.109
The other thing I think I really found was about mindset change.
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So, you know, we've got all these people trading cotton, we've got lots of interested parties, we really had to work closely with Genesis spinners for them to share their information to accept that they were going to put data into the platform. And that's about mindset change. And I mean, we know about the change curve, don't wait in life. But this is a real change curve, you know, a lot of denial going on. I remember one of my first meetings with the the t shirt manufacturers in Bangladesh, for Primark and I went in to talk about what we were doing. I was just, it was just folded arms in front of me. I were not doing it. It was not doing it. And now people are calling us up, say they want to be part of the programme. So this journey of taking people with you.
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Why were they? So? Was it just they're resistant to any change? Or did they fear that we're going to lose something specific? And what did they gain? Now? That means they were willing to overcome that that resistance?
00:19:04.618 --> 00:20:19.528
I think, I think everyone's worried about losing financially. So if I tell you where I'm buying my cotton from, are you going to just cut me out? Or if you know the price, I bought it out? Are you going to negotiate harder on prices? I don't have the flexibility. If I'm you know, I'm buying a bale of cotton as a spinner. If you're telling me to buy it from a certain a certain place, then I don't have that flexibility anymore as a as a as a spin. So lots of commercial reasons not to do it. I think the advantage has been that now one of the pieces of what we do is we get all of the actors in the supply chain together. So we will quite often have recorded supply chain meetings. So the brand is there gingers the spinners, manufacturers, maybe a former representative and they She talks about the challenges and issues in that supply chain. So that access to go the middle of the supply chain to really meet the brand and really understand what the brand is doing. And for the brand to hear from those, that that middle of that supply chain has been really powerful.
00:20:16.169 --> 00:20:33.929
And, you know, I remember doing it with caring, actually. And it was the first time everybody had just sat around a table together. It wasn't the easiest conversation either. I mean, these are not, you know, these are commercial conversations.
00:20:29.128 --> 00:20:43.919
But the fact that, you know, for the first time ever, in that supply chain they had met is just that moment of a dialogue that happens within within a complex supply chain.
00:20:44.309 --> 00:20:45.960
Absolutely.
00:20:44.309 --> 00:21:58.200
And I think there's a couple of things here in that one is a shift from a mindset of efficiency and flexibility. And arm's length transactions where you're trying to screw the other guy into the ground, frankly, is the sort of was the default previously. But if you can get in the room and trust each other, then you can have a supply chain, which is more based on effectiveness, and resilience and helping the whole supply chain to be better, rather than trying to maximise the efficiency of each individual part, which ironically, leads to the whole being less efficient and less effective. Because there's no spare capacity. There's no sort of redundancy and other kinds of things like this, I'm hearing like that, the that traceability and the role of costs and connecting creating trust, and relationships across that supply chain can then lead to a mindset shift, and a move away from commercial considerations drowning out everything else, to a wider set of considerations actually helping with commercial considerations. Is that fair way of describing it?
00:21:59.159 --> 00:22:02.038
Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:59.159 --> 00:22:49.019
And I think it's interesting if you're spinner in India, to have a conversation, which isn't just about price and quality, because there's lots of quality discussions about cotton, as you can imagine, and talk about sustainability, sustainable cotton, or, you know, and then thinking about their own processes and their factories as well. Is is a different shift again, isn't it? So you're bringing this sort of sustainability in its broadest sense, really, right into the supply chain, I think quite often in supply chains. At the moment, we're seeing agronomic interventions, and we might be seeing brand interventions, but that middle supply chain quite often is forgotten. And there's a lot of processing, there's a lot of energy use water use blah, blah, blah. So yeah, so really powerful. A really powerful dialogue.
00:22:49.230 --> 00:22:53.519
I just want to check with Carrefour is supermarket in France
00:22:53.549 --> 00:22:57.420
in plant based advanced global footprint. And
00:22:57.450 --> 00:23:26.130
hearing is again, I think French are headquartered company, but it's a house of brands, lots of different. Lots of different clothing and brands people have heard of, but I can't remember any of them off top my head, what it's worth they are that's one of those things. And I think the other thing, then moving on into the next question, so you've got the platform and the relationships, and there's lots of things you're doing. Do you have any particular methods or practices that you use for innovation for sustainability?
00:23:26.130 --> 00:23:35.519
Is there like a framework or a toolbox that you tend to say, oh, we need to innovate this?
00:23:33.089 --> 00:23:35.819
Let's let us use this method now.
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:41.069
You Yeah, so we, I mean, we have a dedicated team.
00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:44.369
It's quite small team. And we call it commercial development.
00:23:44.369 --> 00:24:36.720
So we have a team that looks after that. And it's, you know, we have some dedicated investment that goes into that as well. And they've developed a methodology of it is a gate process. So an assessment of the programme, how it's relevant, the criteria for success. And then most recently, we've just we've, over the past year, we've done some different pilots, and the team have put together a scorecard. So we're scoring how that pilot has worked. And it's an against number of criteria in terms of effectiveness of the pilots relevance to is it? Is it marketable? Is it something brands more on? How is it relating to environmental and social goals? So then that innovation is scored? So I've just been called the scorings.
00:24:37.200 --> 00:25:05.640
yesterday with the team actually on our pilots so we can decide, which do we take forward and continue to invest in and which do we think perhaps, okay, we tried it, it didn't work. We're going to move forward, move on from that. And I think part of that the philosophy that we talked about is that some things won't work. Yeah. And if you are innovating, well, there's a moment that you kind of have to accept that the wheels fell off.
00:25:06.029 --> 00:25:13.859
So we were just looking at a warehousing model in cotton for organic to see whether that would unlock the organic market.
00:25:13.859 --> 00:25:25.529
So we would, the cotton would be produced by the farmers, we would then warehouse the organic cotton, before it then goes further into the supply chain.
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:49.619
It it, we didn't, the team has spent a lot of time on it. And in the end, it wasn't going to not. That's it, it wasn't going to be a solution. But for me, the fact that we explored it and have discounted it is really important. Because organic has lots of challenges organic cotton at the moment. So the fact we can discuss one of the options as a solution is quite important for us. Yeah. So yeah.
00:25:49.619 --> 00:26:05.160
So there's odd, this idea generation from the team, which is really important. So I don't sit in London and come up with innovation. It's it's comes out of the teams, across the geographies where we work. And I think that's really important.
00:26:06.869 --> 00:26:32.579
And then we obviously do quite we use some of the more traditional methods to look at what's going on. So we just did a pestle review across all markets to look at future trends. Sure. Your students use that. So you will use some of the, you know, other tools as well, in terms of that you be expecting to see in terms of and we just refining our process.
00:26:32.700 --> 00:26:40.950
Yes. And I, I'm not sure everyone will know. But pestle is let's see if I can remember it political so that you're looking for trends.
00:26:38.549 --> 00:26:57.000
And the trends fall into these different categories and pestle as a way of remembering them. So political, economic, social, technological, legal, and environmental spending out there. And it's great to hear all of that. And it's worth remembering out of just to you.
00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:02.519
So you've got 100 People in cotton connect, been roughly speaking, where are they located? Just to give us a sense of where those ideas are
00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:06.180
coming from? Yeah, so 70% of our team is in India.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:54.779
Yeah. So, which is our biggest market, we still have a small team in team in China, we've got a team of about 10. In Bangladesh, this isn't going to add up soon. After Bangladesh, we made a Bangladesh is another story actually about how we really stimulated cotton growing in Bangladesh, as another cash crop there. And then small teams in Pakistan, as very, very small team in Egypt. And we're in our second year in Turkey. So really, that's one facet of how our team is spread. But only four of us in the UK. So which is really deliberate and quite unusual. If you look at INGOs.
00:27:49.710 --> 00:27:57.599
So international NGOs tend to have quite head offices here in the UK.
00:27:58.108 --> 00:29:04.259
Yes. And I mean, what you're doing this speaks to trying to a process through. It was right, we're putting it part of what's going on here is it's disproportionately Western consumers buying these fashion products, these garments. And so there's the power is on the money isn't one area, richer economies and the work and the potential for injustice. And the potential for environmental impact is in the global south is in the majority well, so these, as you say things important that costs and connecting anyone who's working to make a difference, tries to reflect those people who's trying to make a difference for rather than imposing from from these richer countries. And the other thing I just wanted to pick up from your when you're talking about the innovation management was how you thought of this as an investment, and the stage gates and having the discipline to say no to things even when you you really want it to succeed. And even though you've got a lot of sunk cost that has gone into it, you can still go, actually, this isn't working.
00:29:04.798 --> 00:29:11.128
It's great that you've done this to find this out. And we've got lessons which apply elsewhere.
00:29:07.078 --> 00:29:17.759
But we should think of it as a success to find out that it's not going to work rather than to think of it as a failure. This is a very important little insight for us all.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:21.299
Yeah, definitely.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:52.740
And also, it's about the mindset with the team. So guy down in our team in India, who did all the work on the warehousing. I said to him, you know, it had it, we should celebrate the fact that you've done all the work and we decided not to progress it. That is success for me. And I think quite often in business, we kind of we don't really we don't really understand you don't we only celebrate things at work, don't we rather than saying okay, we've learned something here and I do think it's switching around that mindset a little bit.
00:29:53.069 --> 00:29:55.230
Yes, absolutely. Last few questions.
00:29:55.230 --> 00:29:58.319
What are the biggest challenges you face and how do you overcome them?
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I think it is about people. And wherever you turn, it's about taking people on that journey with you. And I talked right at the beginning that we worked with female farmers in India, I know our programme.
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That was such a big shift, because even in my farm team knows this, why are we training the women? You know? So I think for me, it's about how you take people on that journey. And people are individuals. So, you know, it's it's each Jenner, it's each spinner. It's the individuals in the brands that have the vision for the future, and how do you give them the tools and the messages to invest further and take that further into their organisation? So I think it's about inspiring people to change. Yeah,
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so I'm hearing a lot of challenges of resistance, and the ways of overcoming partly your own determination, but also the attention to individuals and relationships. There's as a theme I hear, if there was one thing policymakers could do, which would make your work significant, easily easier. What would that be?
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Yeah, good question. I'm not very fond of policy and regulation, mostly as a tool. But I think there are two things for me. One is at the moment, we talked about all the various claims legislation going on. It's really fragmented, right? So each, each member state in the EU seems to have its own framework, you will have its own framework, the UK has got its own framework, the US has got its own framework. It's really, I think it's really tricky, because there's just so much similar legislation, but not the same. So you know, that harmonisation would be amazing, but probably impossible. And I think maybe the other thing is that, you know, we look at climate change, and we talk about climate change. But I think that as policymakers, we need to see it through the lens of smallholder farmers, as they are really at the, the, they're really being affected by climate change. So we're seeing already the effects in in cotton production, climate change. So increased pest attacks, women having to work harder and longer, longer hours, water, go further water, cows not being as productive, etc, etc. So I think for policymakers, it's that kind of understanding of, you know, not just the big impacts of climate change, and, you know, all the great platforms, but also thinking through from the fragility of some, some of the people in the supply chain.
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Absolutely.
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And I think as we speak, there is a 40 degree heat wave going on through rural India. So if we can expect to become more and more common, and we'll make growing and all kinds of things or more difficult. And last question about the future. So what are your What are complex priorities on innovation going forward? And why?
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Yes, I think you've heard a thread through my personal journey across and connects about women, I think, we are looking at how we measure and reduce greenhouse gas emissions, how I worked as that.
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But we also were just putting, putting the work in the next three years strategy. And women will be part of that. And they be looking at Jen, looking at this through a gender lens, because, you know, we, we saw actually that issues around gender had dropped out of the priorities or brands. So we do an annual customer survey, and social issues and gender had been further up and now they had dropped back. I think it's coming back. So for me, there is a piece about how do we keep empowering women? What's their roles in this changing scenario as weather patterns change? How?
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How do we build their confidence build their entrepreneurial skills? So I think that it's part of my personal passion. I think that obviously, climate climate climate at the moment, I think, for the sector,
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yes.
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Wonderful. Well, and I think that joins together another part of the threads that I hear here, and from my own tiny experience of fashion supply chains, which is in supply chains more generally. Those who are in have the least amount of power are given the highest amount of risk, the risk sort of accumulates to them. And that's in this instance, as it's often are the women who are working in that supply chain. And the biggest risk is often to do with climate change in not just mitigation, but adaptation, how are we going to cope with what is now baked in? So I think it's really there's also shows the way in which what traditionally have been thought of as separate issues, environmental and social actually deeply intertwined together,
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we've got some, it's only really just started.
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And we've got some climate change ambassadors and say it's a village level. So the idea is that the women rather than being seen as victims of climate change, which obviously they're really all facing, the impacts are actually part of the solution. And we're giving them the tools and the knowledge to influence locally. And I hope that they will also become a group that feedback to us. So I've asked to have our first focus group with them, so we can hear from them about what what they want to tell us about what's happening in our communities.
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That's wonderful, wonderful, positive to note note, making people into agents of change in the face of such difficult situations, and which is a great note for us to close on. So thank you very much, Alison. You've been listening to the Chief Executive of compact as award as we've been talking about innovation, business and sustainability.
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Thank you very much for listening, and we'll be along soon with the next episode.
