Setting Expectations With Your MSP Clients & Team

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This is the How to MSP podcast.
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I'm your host, Andrew Moore.
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I heard this years ago and it really resonated with me.
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Because everything I do, it's how simple can we make it?
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I'm obsessed with like simplicity in everything I do in my entire life.
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Because as soon as it's really simple and repeatable, it gets done way more accurately.
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That was Connor Fagan.
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Connor is the founder and owner of RENADA, a UK-based consultancy specializing in Halo PSA implementations and technical optimization for managed services providers.
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Working with over 300 MSPs and growing, RENATA is a premier consultancy regarding MSP optimization.
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Today we discuss setting expectations in your MSP, building accountability into your processes, and why AI may not be a magic bullet for your business.
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All right, welcome to the How to MSP podcast.
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My name is Andrew Moore.
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I'm your host, and today we are meeting with Connor of Renata out of the UK.
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Connor is the good day.
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Cheers.
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All the things.
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Yeah.
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All the uh so Connor is the owner and founder uh of Renata, and they are one of the world's leading specialists in the Halo PSA uh deployment and uh integration into managed service processes.
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Uh, but that's not the only thing they do there.
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And it's not the only thing that Connor does.
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So uh Connor, I'm uh interested to hear a little bit more about how you guys function, what you do personally.
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Um why don't you tell the team about who you are and what you do and uh where you physically are today, where does the podcast find you?
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We're still hung up on world's leading specialist or whatever you just said.
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Um everybody here in the US knows you, which means that if you're in and people in the US know you you're worldwide, we're worldwide.
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Yeah, we we have partners all around the world, right?
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But I, you know, you find me in what I've called the dungeon, right?
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This is an office I renovated last year attached to my house.
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Every wall is black with a bit of decor behind me.
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Um it's not finished, it's a standard kind of thing.
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But I'm in the UK, in the north of England.
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Um, you know, our team is fully remote, so yeah, stuff like worldwide or people knowing us, it's just uh I I I try and not really think about it because I'm just sat in this little four-walled box, right?
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And I see my team a handful of times a year, and we're all just living our own lives.
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But yeah, today you find me in the dungeon, which is uh the new place to hang out, really.
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I love the wallpaper back there, it's very cool.
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Yeah, I need to put some pictures online actually.
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I've done like different themed all around the room to give it a bit of colour.
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The wife was like, it's gonna be like really dark in there if you do everything black, like the AP's black, the AC's black, like everything's black, and I'm like, yeah, it's the one room in the house that is like mine.
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Um everything else is, I don't know, the wife's and the kids, that's it.
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But not the dungeon.
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Um, so a little bit of your journey.
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How did how did you get to where you are?
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What are you guys up to over there?
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Just briefly kind of filled the team in on um on you know what it is that Renata does, what it is that Connor does, and what differentiates you guys in the in the space.
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Seems to be a bit of a common story now.
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When I said it four years ago, I was quite unique, but everyone seems to be saying it now.
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Halo asked us to help them four years ago, is the long and short of it.
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Um to the backstory is I've been in IT over 10 years now, 15 years now, I don't know, too long.
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Used to work for Curries in the UK, which is my first IT role, which was fixing laptops and tablets.
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Then I started my first company, which was like a mobile laptop tablet repair company.
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That didn't work out, as first businesses typically don't.
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Um, I then moved up north with the wife or girlfriend at the time, um, started working in education, so did that for seven years, found my niche, which was infrastructure.
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So started, I was an infrastructure manager of like nine schools in the UK, and managed the entire IT estate, really, um, but mainly focused on infrastructure.
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Um, then verged into MSP world, um, went private MSP, um, then went into education MSP as CTO.
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And when I was there, we went through an acquisition.
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Um, and I got a piece of paper on my desk, which was, Connor, what stack are we using?
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And I replied, I don't like either company's stack.
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Maybe now is a good time to, you know, look at what's out there.
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Fast forward 12 months, we'd migrated to Halo, was about 60, 70 staff at the time.
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Um, did that for a couple of years and then left to start RENADA, which was supposed to be digital transformation, but for the SMB sector.
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And my wife's worked in care all of her life.
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She used to moan all the time about their systems.
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And whenever I saw her laptop, she died a bit inside, honestly.
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Um, and I really wanted to go in and be an advisor, but not an MSP.
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So, you know, one of the things I've always struggled with as an MSP is trying to convince a client they need this thing, right?
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Because they just think, oh, we're just trying to sell to us again.
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I was trying to bridge that market by being a consultant, but not actually doing any of the work.
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Just going in, being a friend to, you know, Andrew, who owns the business, doing an audit, and then going, listen, I can be a bridge between you and the MSP.
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I can be an advisor of any big decisions you need to make, but here's where I think you need to be.
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Here's the report.
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Check me in whenever you need me.
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And then I was trying to build like long-term engagements where I check in once a year, do an update, see where they're at.
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Um, long story short, Halo said, Can I help?
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And here we are three and a half years later.
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Doing that.
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So do you do you do any of the configuration on any technical assets at this point?
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Or are you just strictly consulting and or you know, helping with the maybe do you do configuration within the Halo system itself, or do you just advise people to get stuff done?
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No, so we're we actually all we really do is configure technical solutions now for our partners, be that automations, be that mainly in Halo these days.
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So we know we do, I say most of our work is in Halo, but we are Ninja One partners, so we help MSPs, you know, manage and monitor Ninja, set it up, audit it.
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Same with Hudu.
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Uh we're doing loads with SIP at the minute as well.
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Um, got a great partnership with them with ProSerf partners for SIP.
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So leveraging Halo is the I don't know, the glue, if you will, and then yeah, leveraging tools around it.
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Um we're really, really intentional with who we partner with uh because we partner with companies, not products.
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And therefore, in the three years, we've not changed our vendor stack at all.
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Um, we're not just moving because there's a better margin or a new deal.
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It's what is the best tool we believe on the market today for you as an MSP?
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And what are we best at?
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You know, I often joke with people saying, you know, I'm not tied to Halo.
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Halo just is right now with the best PSA on the market.
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And if something better comes along, then we will explore that.
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Reality is with a team of six now with four years into Halo, it's not just going to be an overnight shift, but I like that mindset because it keeps both sides accountable.
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Halo needs to still keep putting out good work and being a great company, because if not, consultants will stop, and consultants need to be doing the best with Halo because then we're adding as much value as we can.
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And it's, I don't know, kind of a two-way conversation with it.
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Yeah, no, and I I told I tell all of my clients, and we do, we do work in, you know, whether it's data or it's connect wise or whatever.
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But if I if I started an MSP from scratch today, I'd start it with Halo and Ninja.
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Like there's just a lot of really great configurable synergies between those two products together and scalability, which I think I'm starting to see kind of a shift in the market as this first tranche of MSP type companies are starting to age out, right?
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And you're getting, I I feel like almost like this new wave of next generation software and solutions for the MSP space, where you've got younger people stepping in that are starting to take over or start MSPs.
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And it's just I think that we're gonna see a real renaissance uh over the next like 10 years.
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And it's not even particularly around AI.
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It's just the tools are changing, the direction of owners are changing, the buyers are changing, right?
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Like the people who are buying MSP services are they grew up with technology, they understand technology, they they um have configured things themselves in the past, right?
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And so I think you know, what we wanted to talk about today was really focused around how to set the proper expectations within your business for your clients, um, which I think is a fantastic way to approach where we're going as an industry.
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And so I'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, as I've set the table here a little bit, how do you feel like the industry is changing and how you pull that thread through when it comes to making sure you're setting the right expectations within your company for your clients?
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Like, where do you see things going with that?
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I think something to add before I go down that rabbit hole is something you said a minute ago, which was you would start an MSP with Halo.
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Yes.
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Because I wouldn't really what would you start an MSP with?
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The cheapest lightweight system that I could start with.
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And I get asked this all the time because people are like, oh Connie, if you start an MSP, you'd obviously start with Halo.
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And like, no.
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The amount of engineering we've put into Halo for our partners and for us over the years would detract from me starting an MSP.
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And to be fundamentally clear when I say this, I don't think I could start an MSP in this market, discuss it for another day.
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I don't think I have the skills to do that.
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Um, but if I was to start an MSP, the the tooling would be at the bottom of the barrel.
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Um, but the reality is, is Halo as a platform really hones to MSPs that want to refine their process, right?
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And when we're talking in a minute about expectations, they can really refine expectations, workflows, process within a platform.
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If I'm starting a net new MSP, I don't think I'd want to spend hours and hours each week refining my tooling.
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I want to be out there finding clients, you know, seeing what they need before I start building my company around what I want.
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Um, you know, we can we can say you would go and attack a vertical, but if I was starting an MSP, I don't even know if I know where I'd end up within a vertical.
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You know, I might target, I don't know, lawyers, for instance, end up, I don't know, getting an in with a big agricultural company, and before you know it, I'm down that rabbit hole.
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And yeah, so I think for me, Halo is fantastic once you're kind of matured a little bit, once you've had three to four to five years of growing pains to understand what works, what doesn't work.
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I think, and this is why we've kind of got our ICP now, which kind of is if there's less than five of you in an MSP, and again, it's variable, but depending on how long you've been in the platform or had an MSP, depending on where your journey's at, I don't think Halo's right for everyone.
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Because of the time required to build it and the pain you may not had yet to know what you need.
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That's an interesting point because I feel like in my consulting, there are certain companies that haven't reached a level of operational maturity where they're ready for bifurcation of roles and responsibilities as an instance, right?
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The owner is not ready to potentially offload part of what they do on a daily basis to another person because they just don't have the time or the service delivery platform built out yet to start moving account management roles and sales roles.
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So they have to get to a certain point where they're even ready to make that change.
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So that's an interest.
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So I'm I'm guessing based on what you said, that from an operational maturity standpoint, that a company has to get to a certain level in order to be able to take advantage of tools like Halo, because otherwise it it the the scar tissue isn't there to be able to understand what they actually need to do in order to deploy something like that.
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Is that kind of along the lines of what you were thinking?
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Yeah, I think one of the things I've really observed over the past few years is what ConnectWise was really good at, for instance, is their community, right?
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Where ConnectWise with IT Nation over the years of years had great documentation, great literature.
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They told MSPs how they should work.
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So the platform or the product of ConnectWise set the expectations for that MSP.
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This is how you should work, this is the best way we think you should work to achieve the best output.
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They did loads around reporting and how what good looks like.
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And they defined MSPs what expectations or what outcome they should expect if they followed this process, right?
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And they did that for decades.
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Problem is, and as we spoke about earlier, the landscape is changing now because a lot of MSPs are going, well, I don't want to work that way.
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I want to be a little bit different.
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What if we want to take on this?
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Or what if I want to, you know, tweak this?
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And the difference between something like Connect Rides, which is fantastic if you want to be led with something like Halo, is you can go, well, I want to build it my own way.
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And I want to set my own rules and my own workflows and my own whatever.
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And that's where the real nuances, I think, are starting to show between MSPs that work in a certain way and want to be really handheld in their operations, which is fine, by the way.
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I get it, versus MSPs that really want to carve and be unique and differentiate in the space.
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Um, that's where these new toolings are coming along, which are more, more platforms.
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And I use that word quite openly, but they are more platforms.
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I think a lot of engineering, a lot of building, a lot of ownership of the product, um, as opposed to something like ConnectWise and Autotask, which is, you know, you work in this way to achieve this outcome.
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Yeah, I noticed that when I work with my clients that are on ConnectWise, there are certain things that we have to do in the way that we build our processes that have to work around the way that ConnectWise is created, right?
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Like, and then that's gonna happen with most tools, but the level of flexibility I don't think is nearly as there when it comes to ConnectWise as I've seen it with other platforms that may be more software-focused, API-driven, where there's a more flexible, as you put it, like platform, almost Salesforce-esque, where it's like we're a platform.
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We've got a lot of ability to create customization and overlay and integration.
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How do you want to use us versus here's how you should use us, if if that makes sense to you.
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Yeah, and that tracks back to where we talked about, you know, um, I think it takes a certain buyer to get the most out of certain modern tooling, right?
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A lot of modern tooling is a little bit more open than it ever once was.
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APIs now are whenever we look at products, we're the first question is do they have have an API?
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You know, we've just gone through a HR platform review, and every question or um I was kind of given to doing it, it's like, does it have an API?
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I don't even know why yet.
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I just know if it doesn't, it's going to bottleneck me at some point.
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And it's such an interesting way.
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Like, if we look at all the partners we work with, what we're really trying to advocate for is you need someone internally who's a little bit developer-y, right?
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Who wants to learn APIs and maybe a bit of JavaScript and a bit of AI and automation.
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And these were skills that I didn't know when I launched RENADA.
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I didn't know what APIs were hardly.
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I knew what they were.
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And a few vendors at the time were saying you can connect to it, but it was never a thing.
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Whereas fast forward four years, if you're not using an API, you're kind of getting left behind.
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Um, you know, building middleware as an MSP these days is becoming a standard process.
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The problem is no one knows where to begin because none of us are developers, right?
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Or typically none of us are developers.
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Um, and it's really expensive, and again, coming back to expectations, to hire a developer because we don't know how to manage them.
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You know, we I own an app now.
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I don't know how this happened, but we we own an app now, and we speak all the time about hiring our first developer.
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I I don't even know, I have no idea how I would manage a developer, how I would interview a developer.
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Like they could just, I would have no idea.
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When how long does it take to fix this thing?
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They could tell me an hour or tell me three months.
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I have no way of benching, right?
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And this is kind of where we're at in a landscape now where things are really shifting.
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And what was once fixing a server following a guide is becoming, you know, how do we API into it to run an automated script ahead of time?
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You know, how do we become proactive rather than reactive?
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Um, it was always something we used to say years ago, but now it is becoming more and more prevalent when you see it in MSPs, right?
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Those that are proactive are automating, using AI.
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Um, and it's a really exciting time for someone like me.
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I think that's why Renata does so well, because we get to play with the latest technology all day, every day and go, well, how could we fix that problem?
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Um, and that's kind of where we get excited, really.
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Well, and you had you had mentioned that you don't take on that many projects.
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As a matter of fact, I tried to reach out to you guys recently to to take on a project for a would-be client of mine.
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And you were quite clear.
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You're like, I don't have the bandwidth to do that, even though I was asking a favor, and it wasn't, I wasn't offended by it.
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I just actually really appreciated the honesty uh about what you guys could do from a quality standpoint.
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So, you know, I I'd like for you to dig into that a little bit because I think from an expectation management standpoint, a lot of MSPs fall into the trap of saying that they can get stuff done in order to try to drive new revenues, generate business, move their company forward in some way.
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And I feel like you do in a lot of ways that if you're not setting expectations properly, you're not creating that very beginning kernel of trust, which needs to run through the rest of the relationship.
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So, how have you guys really adopted that strategy into your core values as a business, what you guys do to manage your accounts, to bring on new clients?
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Like, how do you manage expectations with new opportunities?
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What does that look like?
00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:28.880
Curious thing.
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:36.720
It's taken me years, and I'm still not great at it with terms of new business and saying no, because I just want to help people.
00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:38.559
I started this to help, right?
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:42.240
Um, it's not revenue generating, and people keep seeing our prices going up.
00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:48.880
And I'm like, I have to do that because you know, we're trying to produce amazing outputs, but there's only so many hours of a day.
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:59.279
Um, running a consultation company is the hardest thing I have ever done because I had no idea and still really don't, how to run a consultancy company.
00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:03.759
And what I'm actually really saying is I don't really know yet how to sell time for money.
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:06.960
Right, because that's in essence what it is, it's a one-to-one relationship.
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:15.920
So setting expectations for us is is super critical in everything that we do because I go in with the mindset of, well, I just don't know what I don't know.
00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:27.359
So when I launched this years ago, month-to-month contracts were what we did and we still do, because I was very open, like, I don't know where this is gonna go in 12 months.
00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:30.400
I don't know if this is manageable, I don't know if the price is right.
00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:32.400
And we're very open about that, right?
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:43.680
When we're taking on a project for a client, we budget it and we will die by our own sword because I'm gonna say to you, Andrew, what is this piece of work worth for you?
00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:44.079
Right?
00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:45.279
What do you want to spend on it?
00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:56.720
You might go a thousand bucks and I go, okay, and we'll sit down as a team and go, if this shoots over budget by double, triple, quadruple, is that worth it to us?
00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:58.880
Are we learning something from it?
00:19:58.960 --> 00:19:59.279
Right?
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:00.880
Can we reuse it for the client?
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.039
And you know, we don't just steal the work we do for you, Andrew.
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:05.599
It's not what we do, but you know, we'd have a conversation.
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:08.480
And a lot of the time MSPs go, yeah, sure.
00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:09.039
Right.
00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:13.680
Um, you know, we've got some work on at the minute, and the client goes, Can you automate this thing?
00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:17.200
And we're like, I don't have a clue how long this could take.
00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:19.759
It could take five hours, it could take a hundred hours.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:20.880
Like, I I don't know.
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:22.240
Like, what's your budget with it?
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:26.480
And they're like, Oh, you know, just go so far and then circle back in.
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.759
But at the very beginning, we've been transparent about that.
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:34.160
What we don't do is just start down this road of going, yeah, we can do it.
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:37.119
Get$3,000 in, and you go, where are we at?
00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:39.119
And I go, Ah, we're close.
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:43.920
And then get to$5,000, and then people go, Ah, we're nearly there now.
00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:46.799
Because you feel like you've been suckered, right?
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:50.880
Um, and that's all our engagement with our partners kind of go on that.
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:54.559
You know, I said to you at the start of this call, trust is a core for value at Merida.
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:56.240
Um, and trust is earned, right?
00:20:56.319 --> 00:20:57.279
You have to earn trust.
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:01.200
Um, our partners invest in us every month by paying us, right?
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:05.599
Um, to deliver um products or outcomes.
00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:09.039
Um, and we have to build the trust that we can do that to their budget.
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:20.240
Um, if if we start going over budget on tasks that we've scoped for and it costs them, well, they won't trust us to do any more in the future, therefore the foundations of what we're trying to build have been broken down.
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:22.079
You may not know this.
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:29.680
Um our internal target, our ceiling of full is there's four of us consulting or doing consultation work.
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:37.039
Um divide that by three, so hours in a week, our target, our ceiling is 33%.
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:43.599
If we have uh a client, you will commit to four hours a month with us.
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:47.759
We therefore commit to four hours a month for you in terms of work we can do.
00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:49.680
Um, and we cap our ceiling at 33%.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:54.960
Um that for us is full because we may go over on certain tasks.
00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:56.079
We're still learning.
00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:59.359
We need time to learn how to do the thing you want.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.599
And we shouldn't you shouldn't have to pay us every time we need to learn.
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:09.839
So you had talked to me about the ambiguity trap, right?
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:19.519
And how you set expectations with your clients and what you recommend to MSPs about setting expectations.
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:21.440
What is the ambiguity trap?
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:25.039
What does that look like for you when you see it?
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:26.640
And how do you steer clear of it?
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:39.359
And how do you advise your MSPs to steer clear of it when it comes to how they're managing their internal processes or they're handling their clients' relationships in regards to how you're getting your system set up to support that?
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:40.880
Like what does that look like?
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:46.799
So to kind of spin it, I see the ambiguity trap on the output.
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:47.920
Right.
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.680
Like we're engaged by MSPs to help solve problems technically.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:52.400
Right.
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:59.200
An example could be, I don't know, um Connor, we we keep having client servers go offline, right?
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:04.960
How do we build alert in throughout of hours engineers so we know when they've gone offline, right?
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:10.480
I spin it on its head and go, why are they going offline in the first place?
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:13.759
Oh well, we didn't patch them, why not?
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:16.160
Because Andrew forgot to patch it, right?
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:20.640
I then, you know, I taught myself out of a lot of work, honestly.
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:23.440
It's kind of a problem I have, but you know, I I want to help.
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:28.000
But for me, it's it's about I I call it looking inwards, right?
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:31.920
So whenever there's been a problem in in IT that I've dealt with as a manager, right?
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:37.680
Because I've managed all my career basically, I go, what didn't I give my team to solve that before it was a problem?
00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:38.160
Right?
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:39.359
Was it training?
00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:41.039
Was it clear expectations?
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:42.400
Was it process?
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:44.799
Um, was it permission, right?
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:45.920
Was it ownership?
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:49.279
A lot of the time, if you don't give ownership, people think, well, it's not my problem.
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:55.200
Um and very much for me, it's it's looking inwards and trying to remove any ambiguity.
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:57.039
I'm quite black and white as a person.
00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:00.559
Did you tell this person to check that server on Wednesday?
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:01.599
No.
00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:05.680
Then how would you expect them to know to check that server on Wednesday?
00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:06.480
Right?
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:09.279
Is a is a s is a super, super simple thing.
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:15.279
Um, so for me, the ambiguity is is it surfaces on the output for me because that's where we get dragged in.
00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:18.880
There's been a problem, there's been a crisis, there's things not working, how do we fix it?
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:22.160
And a lot of the time I have to ask people to look inwards, right?
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:23.519
As bad as that may sound.
00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:25.599
And I'm like, well, how have we got here?
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:32.319
So in answer to your question, I think um, in terms of identifying it, it's always a little bit too late.
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:35.680
Because something's happened to get there.
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:39.759
Yeah, I I I I totally understand where you're coming from.
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:52.799
And I think part of the root cause of some of that ambiguity when it comes to managing teams within a small business, I won't particularly say just MSPs, but within any company, right?
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:57.440
You have people who are special.
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:00.400
And those people are entrepreneurs.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:03.359
For whatever reason, they are built differently.
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:10.559
They are very good at what they do, they are passionate about whether it's helping people, building technology, doing something.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:13.359
Uh it could be a bit tailor, it could be whatever.
00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:21.200
And when they start to grow their business, they bring people in to help them to continue to make this business special.
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:28.559
And as an example, they'll bring a service manager in and they'll say, Well, why didn't why didn't you look at those servers?
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:30.480
And they were like, I didn't know I was supposed to.
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:32.079
And they're like, I can't believe this.
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:38.799
I don't know why you're like, like, and what I've had to continually remind my clients of is your employees aren't you.
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:54.240
If you're a manager, if you're an owner, that you have to realize that you're wired differently than some of these folks, and that if you're anything other than completely clear with them, it's gonna be really hard for them to know what you want.
00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:59.920
It's rare that you find somebody that thinks like an owner that will work in your business.
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:02.480
If you do, you've got a special person.
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:10.319
But otherwise, you have to really, you don't have to spell it out completely, but pretty much is the way I talk about it.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:20.480
It's like you won't, you don't want to remove their ability to be thoughtful and strategic, but you certainly don't want to leave any room for misinterpretation of what your expected outcomes are.
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:40.240
Um and I and I think that that balance and being able to tell an owner how to do that, and then having them create processes and whatnot so that they don't eliminate their team's ability to work as a team, to understand things kind of at a higher level when it comes to building out outcomes.
00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:45.519
I think that's the real skill in management is understanding how far you take that.
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:57.839
But I really liked a post that you had had put together, um, I think it was yesterday, about too much process leads to like unfortunate.
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.079
I I think it creates some ambiguity.
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:08.559
It creates a lack of really being able to think because you've eliminated everybody's ability to make decisions because you created too much process.
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:14.400
So how how have you been seeing that play out in your clients and within Reneda's business?
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:16.319
Like, what are you seeing there with that?
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:22.000
I think a key point that you kind of touched on then was from an owner perspective, right?
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:26.319
If I was to hire someone, and we have this now with our internal IT Renator, I'll be honest, it's a bit of a mess.
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.119
Um, we don't have clear ownership, right?
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:34.319
What a lot of us do in technical is, you know, I hire someone in to manage the servers.
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:38.880
And we don't always tell them what we expect, but we tell them how we expect it, right?
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:41.279
In the form of a guide or a SOP, right?
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.599
So rather than me saying, right, you're responsible, Andrew, for servers.
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:54.720
I expect them to be up 24-7, I expect them to be patched, I expect a handful of things, it's now yours, you own it.
00:27:54.880 --> 00:28:05.119
What we do instead is go, okay, Andrew, every Wednesday at four o'clock, you log on to the server, you make sure, and we we end up building all these guides and all these processes in place that people have to follow.
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:15.039
The problem you have with that, and the post last night about bureaucracy was if you follow that guide and it still isn't patched, who's to blame?
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:25.599
Because the owner will think it's you because I've given you ownership of the servers, Andrew, but you'll think it's the owner because you didn't say in your guide that if the server's not on, I have to turn it on, right?
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:27.039
To be facetious here.
00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:40.720
I think when you're in we see this across certain clients we've got, um, and we're trying to steer it, but when you have so much process, everything that you do is wrapped in process, that becomes a blame game.
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:43.039
You didn't put it in the process.
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:46.000
You didn't tell me I had to do that if this tangent came about.
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:52.160
You remove the ownership layer and the accountability layer because people are just doing what they're told to do.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:29:00.400
Whereas if you step back a little bit, I think a good leader does this, step back a little bit and set expectations clearly, what good looks like, right?
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:05.200
I think this is a fundamental failing that every business does, really, right?
00:29:05.359 --> 00:29:07.119
What do we expect good to look like?
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:13.519
If you give somebody that and say it's yours, you typically, with the right person within the company, and that's a whole debate for another day.
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:20.480
But if you've got the right bums on the right seats, um, you get way better outcomes because of that whole accountability piece.
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:32.480
And because you've set clear expectations on what the outcome needs to look like, that person can do their own plans or guides or whatever they need to make sure their inputs are correct to deliver on those outputs.
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:39.440
Um and I know I use them words probably a little bit too often, but for me at Reneda, we're doing tasks all day, every day.
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:49.119
And the one bit of the business that has spent ages to refine and get perfect is scoping of tasks, setting those expectations right at the beginning.
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:50.400
What are we gonna do?
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:52.079
What problem are we solving?
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:53.680
How long is it gonna take?
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:57.839
How much time are we spending building versus documenting versus handing back?
00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:01.519
Because once you know all of that, you can make an informed decision.
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:04.559
I could just say it costs you a thousand dollars.
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:16.640
But then when something starts to go awry, that's when I think worlds come tumbling down because there's just a complete lack of a trust, but B, no one knows where to stand really.
00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:32.319
What you say tracks, because I I was fortunate enough to go to a leadership conference once where they had some, I think they were Navy SEALs, um, you know, the American badass, you know, super soldiers.
00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:48.319
And one of the training things that they talked about was that they really focused on what the objective of the mission was versus following orders specifically to the letter.
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:56.000
And the example they used was there was this group of people that were supposed to go to the top of this building and they were going to secure the building, right?
00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:01.039
So that they could then be able to get line of sight on a specific road.
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:02.000
That was their objective.
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:04.319
So the outcome was get line of sight on that road.
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:06.240
And they were told to go to the top of this building.
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:10.640
And when they got to the top of the building, uh, they realized that there wasn't enough cover for them.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:12.559
So they knew what the outcome was.
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:21.599
So without having to go back and ask for permission, they just went down to another floor, secured that floor where they had cover and they were able to uh uh fulfill the objective.
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:28.960
So that was something that we injected into our process systems a lot, which was let's talk about what we're trying to get accomplished here.
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:31.920
We're gonna come up with a framework for how we're gonna accomplish it.
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:35.359
And if you have to deviate from that slightly, that's fine, right?
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:40.960
Unless there's something that, you know, you've got these out-of-bounds areas, don't do this specifically in order to achieve your goal.
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:47.680
But you do want to make sure that you've got an understanding of what the outcome needs to be and setting that outcome.
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:55.119
So to your example, your goal is to make sure that these servers have an uptime of four nines, right?
00:31:55.680 --> 00:32:03.599
Therefore, if the server's not on, maybe you should turn it on, even if it's not explicitly written in the SOP, right?
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:18.400
I I feel like that's a really misunderstood part of process development and training for individuals because if you're focused so much on the process and not on the outcome, people put blinders on and they don't think about what they should be doing.
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:20.000
They think about what they have to do.
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:31.680
And I think that removes critical thinking skills, which are, I think, frankly, more important in our industry than any other, other than maybe being a doctor uh in our industry.
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:37.119
And it kills not just critical thinking, but you know, creativity as well.
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:45.440
Um, I ran some training um years ago um with a technical team I had where um you're familiar with like escape rooms, right?
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:47.759
You go into a room, solve puzzles to get out.
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:52.079
Um I did an exercise where I paired all my engineers together based on level.
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:57.359
So apprentices, level one, two, three, senior engineers, and basically put them on separate tables.
00:32:57.519 --> 00:32:59.839
And it was escape room themed, basically.
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:05.359
The idea was to log into the computer and tell me what the uh home page was on the browser, right?
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:13.279
So it was stupid things like no fuse and a plug and the password was a very basic encryption underneath, and just stupid stuff like that.
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:21.440
Before I started the exercise, the aim was, or I thought the outcome would be the apprentices would finish first and my seniors would finish last.
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:26.480
And I thought that because my seniors have been with me for years, and I thought they would overthink it, right?
00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:30.480
Did the entire exercise and it almost played out perfectly.
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:32.960
The apprentices came second, the level ones actually came first.
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:36.799
Seniors didn't even think because one of the seniors was a good friend of mine at the time.
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:38.960
He knew I was into cryptography at the time.
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:44.000
He thought this cipher I did was some crazy crypto thing that I'd, and it wasn't.
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:50.720
It was just I think an up arrow was an uppercase and down was lowercase, left was like back a letter, and right was forward a letter, right?
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:52.960
So a B was an A or a C, whatever.
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:54.000
It was super simple.
00:33:54.160 --> 00:34:09.679
Um, the point of the ramble, though, there is when we look at teams and look at solving problems, the higher up the ranks you go in an IT company, the more you learn about the problem and the more guides you've followed and the more processes you've done.
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:13.360
So a simple problem, you always go to the nth degree of, right?
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:16.719
I can't log into my computer, it's DNS, right?
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:18.639
I've learned by doing this link.
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:19.599
It's always DNS.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:21.360
It's always DNS, right?
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:26.880
And you learn this kind of by, I don't know, almost like you're kind of indoctrinated in a way, right?
00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:33.039
Because it you've been stung so many times down the line that you the process could be to check DNS.
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.840
Whereas someone that comes in fresh can't log in.
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:40.480
Well, that's the question are you typing the right password or is caps lock on?
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:41.679
Right?
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:53.119
And I think when you're doing tasks and telling people they have to do it in such a certain way, almost the more senior you get or the more times you've done it, you stop looking outside, you follow your blinkers, right?
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:54.880
You follow what's directly in front of you.
00:34:55.119 --> 00:35:01.920
Whereas someone that's new or fresh or hasn't done this will typically ask why a lot more, right?
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:04.719
Which is great for certainly creative thinking.
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:13.840
Um, and I I generally feel that if you are complete blinkers on, that is great for people who you don't want to think about the outcome.
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:24.880
If you need to put a door on, right, you need to put hinges in a certain place, that is perfect if the hold is square, right?
00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:28.000
If it's not square, you need to start thinking about it differently.
00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:31.599
Following a guide to fit that door is never gonna work.
00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:35.440
Well, what you wanna be able to do is create some sort of framework, right?
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:45.519
So like there's a there's there's a difference between my my my former service director used to tell me that he would tell his team that there's a difference between a process and a framework.
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:53.679
And that a process was something that you had to follow specifically, whereas a framework was a general guideline to getting something done.
00:35:54.000 --> 00:36:05.679
I think that level of nuance can sometimes be lost on an immature organization because we're so driven by knowledge base and SOPs, right?
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:21.840
Like we've been we've been basically spoon-fed for the last 20 years that you have to write specific processes and and and and outlines for things that, you know, these knowledge base articles for things that need to be done.
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.280
Whereas a knowledge base is like, here is what we know.
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:26.480
It's knowledge.
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:30.239
Here's what we know, here's what we think you should be focused on.
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:36.880
Versus the, I would say the knowledge bases are even more framework-y and open-ended than SOPs, right?
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:38.719
So I I see the difference.
00:36:38.880 --> 00:37:12.880
I don't know that there's a good way of solving for those differences because I feel like the one thing that managed service providers try to do that that I agree with, but I also feel can be a detriment to them in the long term, is we as managed service providers want to create a consistent quality of service over and over and over again so that the end users have a very um repeatable experience every time that they work with the service delivery team.
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:26.000
And by creating rote processes for everything, then they think that that's the way to get it done, where I think that there is some variance in the way that people solve problems because you're dealing with humans, right?
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:44.559
And so I very much see that there's a difference between going to McDonald's and going to a higher-end restaurant where you have a waiter who helps to account for variations of the delivery of the outcome in order to drive a better experience.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:51.199
So I think that there's a balance there where you have to figure out how to train people to know what processes have to happen.
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:57.119
And then they help smooth and fill in those gaps in order to create a better experience.
00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:07.280
And I think that's where people are losing their way in the MSP space because they're so focused on these KPIs, these outcomes, like get the door hung, get 50 doors hung, right?
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:11.760
But then you've got clients that are coming to you with all different sizes of doors, right?
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:15.440
And want one to open one way and one to open another way, and one's got a window and one doesn't.
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:17.360
They have all these things that they need to do.
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:21.599
And they're still using these KPIs to measure whether or not you got these doors hung.
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:33.760
And I think they're using them, you know, as you had mentioned before, they're using them kind of as a whip rather than a, you know, as a as a punishment to kind of hold people accountable w rather than trying to measure what these outcomes are.
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:35.440
I think it's really hard, right?
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:38.079
Because, you know, we get asked all the time about like dashboards.
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:39.679
Can you build me a good dashboard gunner?
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:41.360
I'm like, I can build your dashboard, sure.
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:42.960
But what are we solving with it?
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:48.320
Because if I just give you 50 numbers that you've got to make green, what is that talking to?
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:48.880
Right?
00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:50.400
A bit like SLAs, right?
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:52.000
What does an SLA tell us?
00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:55.920
Well, it's a window of time, right, that we're gonna do something in.
00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:58.079
It doesn't tell us about quality.
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:00.960
Doesn't tell us about happiness of the client.
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:03.440
It just says that we ticked a box, right?
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:05.840
I'm gonna respond within two hours.
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:09.280
What's the quality of the response though?
00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:09.920
Right?
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:12.639
I'm gonna solve it within four hours.
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:16.559
Okay, but I could solve them all in four hours and they all get reopened again.
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:29.440
But if we're looking at this metric, which is resolution versus, you know, CSAT or quality or reopen count, which is more important, we're not addressing the problems that exist in front of us, is a long and short of it.
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:32.559
Um, a bit like that crappy, really a door analogy.
00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:42.719
Once we give people these processes to follow that are really linear, as soon as we have to divert from them, depending on who you are as a person and depending on what the recourse is, right?
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:50.639
If you normally get chastised for not following the process literally, then you don't want to go off piece a little bit because I'm not allowed.
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:52.559
Or last time I did that, I got shorted at.
00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:58.239
So then you end up pushing it back or escalating it, and you end up with the post last night, the whole bureaucracy post, right?
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:20.159
Where if you put in too much process in and people are blaming each other because of the process, you can get a real hostile work environment, a really poor culture, because we are not setting expectations correctly on the outcome, but setting expectations on the input in this side, saying you must only do what I tell you to do out you're doing it wrong, which I don't think helps anything, really.
00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:25.599
So my question my question to you is how do you make that balance?
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:38.639
What is the balance that you strike when it comes to setting expectations and generating outcomes and balancing what those outcomes are against the processes for the inputs?
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:40.719
Because I know that that's gonna come up.
00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:44.159
People are gonna say, well, listen, I love what you have to say, Connor.
00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:46.159
Very academic.
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:47.679
How do I apply that?
00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:49.599
What does that look like in my business?
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:52.000
What does that look like if I'm configuring my PSA?
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:57.519
What does that look like when I'm developing processes inside of Hudu or whatever it is I use?
00:40:57.679 --> 00:40:59.440
How do you explain that to your clients?
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:00.159
What do you tell them?
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:01.519
What's the advice?
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:04.559
So multiple things, really.
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:08.880
So I love processes when something is repeatable.
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:13.679
And I don't just mean kind of repeatable, I mean repeatable.
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:18.079
Onboarding a user is a very repeatable process.
00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:21.840
We have to go through the same hoops, do the same things every single time.
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:28.079
There might be some variance in job title or, you know, mold, but it's exactly the same thing.
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:29.519
There's a process for that.
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:33.519
And the good thing is about that process, once you nail it, you can automate it.
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:34.159
All right.
00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:36.239
That's kind of where we're going in industry now.
00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:42.079
So when you're looking at SOPs, really, it's really, really highly repeatable things.
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:48.400
Alternatively, the other times I think like guides or SOPs are really useful, is very bespoke things, right?
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:51.760
Let's say I look after I don't know what it was.
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:56.719
It was kind of a like an energy plant, but they used cow shit.
00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:58.239
I don't, I can't really remember what it was.
00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:00.239
Like they just took manure and made energy from it.
00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:01.519
It was a long and short of it.
00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:04.719
Um, their software was crazy.
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:08.480
It was written by some Spanish development firm 20 years ago.
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:13.679
You had to do things in a very certain order, else it would just not work.
00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:23.119
Um, and if it didn't work, you're speaking to someone in Spain on their time zone for thousands of dollars an hour to try and fix it and everything was just crossing your fingers.
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:25.199
A guide needs to be in place for that.
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:25.519
Right?
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:27.039
You cannot deviate.
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:31.679
Problem solving, though, incidents, if you will, stuff coming into the desk.
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:33.679
Well, what does good look like?
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:36.159
Is the client happy at the end of the call?
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:44.800
Do we need every problem to go and try and find a guide that may or may not exist for a problem that may not even be the same?
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:46.639
It might present the same.
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:52.559
The client can't send an email, but how many guys do you want me to check before I give up?
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:53.280
Right?
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:56.000
Before I I call it, you know, no good.
00:42:56.320 --> 00:43:08.800
Um so I think when you're trying to really ascertain how far you should go with a process or how far, or maybe you should start a process, I think you should be asking about the repeatability of it.
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:15.199
How much can we, or how often do we repeat this thoroughly from end to end?
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:25.519
And then people are gonna start asking, well, that sounds like a really good way of approaching it, because then I can use AI to do it for me.
00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:45.840
And I know you've got an opinion about that because I don't know that you know I think you and I agree in some regards is that AI isn't gonna solve every problem on the planet because it's not built to do some of the things I think people have been told to believe it should do, if that makes sense.
00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:47.760
I get really hung up on it.
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:52.800
So, like we're seeing loads of AI in the space for inbound of tickets, right?
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:59.599
Let's say incidents again, where AI is presenting the resolution or the perceived resolution based on the tiny window.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.599
With data it has, right?
00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:09.519
The problem you have with this again, you know, going 360 back to expectations is what are our teams supposed to do with that information?
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:12.639
Are they supposed to blindly follow it?
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:18.559
If they don't follow it, but it was the answer they chastised because they could have done it quicker.
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:22.719
What what are we asking of our staff here?
00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:24.239
Why did you follow that guy?
00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:25.760
Why didn't you research it yourself?
00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:27.840
Well, I thought I was supposed to follow the bot.
00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:30.159
I followed the bot, I've taken the server down.
00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:31.360
Why did you follow the bot?
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:39.679
Like, I feel like you're adding such ambiguity to like what they're supposed to do because it's presented with a perceived solution, right?
00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:40.960
This is my concern with it.
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:47.039
We don't really put this in place for anyone because I don't quite understand how to deliver it without causing damage.
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:48.960
What is it?
00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:50.400
Is it a helping hand, is it?
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:51.280
Like, I don't know.
00:44:51.519 --> 00:45:01.119
Like, you could argue, well, they could go to Google and make the same mistakes, but when you go to Google, you're asking the questions to try and find the answers to something you need to know.
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:05.679
Whereas AI is giving you what it thinks you the answers are to questions that might not even be in front of you.
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:17.119
Well, and I I think I listened to a a really interesting podcast recently where a gentleman was talking about the future of AI and education of the workforce.
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:26.000
And his position on it was AI can be really good at eliminating these rote tasks.
00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:32.960
Update the status of the ticket, make sure that you've got a contract attached to the ticket or agreement, however you use it in your PSA.
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:39.360
Like all these things that we expect our technicians to do, the PSA should be able to do a lot of that work.
00:45:39.679 --> 00:45:41.440
So what does that mean?
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:50.480
Well, you've eliminated basic task level work, the stuff that a process is good for, like check this box, do this, do this.
00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:55.679
His position is AI is not going to eliminate education.
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:59.760
AI is going to exacerbate the need for education.
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:17.519
Because if you're not teaching your staff how your business works, what your outcomes are, how to critically think, when AI eliminates all the task level work, you're going to be left with a bunch of people who only know how to do tasks and they're not capable of making those decisions.
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:33.840
So I think that what you're saying around how do you set expectations, how do you drive strategy and thought process into what you're asking your team to do actually lines up really well with what that gentleman was saying.
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:41.039
And what I'm really kind of starting to lean towards, in my own opinion, of what AI is going to do for the workforce.
00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:43.760
It's not going to eliminate jobs.
00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:58.400
It's going to change the function of jobs to eliminate repeatable process rote task level work and require people to actually think for the first time in some of their careers.
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:07.119
We did a series on AI the first time and ever since this came out, just before Christmas, around how you could use AI in your MSP, basically.
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:11.119
And there's not a lot that I think you should be using AI in your MSP for.
00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:13.440
We have AI auto triage, right?
00:47:13.519 --> 00:47:19.199
It can rename the summary of a ticket, it can set the right categories and give it a priority.
00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:30.800
People ask me how valuable that is to an MSP, and I'm like, like, it's great at catching P1s a bit quicker if you've got loads of tickets sat that I haven't been looked at for an hour.
00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:34.559
Like categories are great, I guess.
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:36.960
Like, do you report on categories now?
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:37.440
No.
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:40.320
Then what pollen is it fixing, right?
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:46.159
Um, I was quite I'm quite data driven, so I use categories loads in a former setting, right?
00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:48.719
It was the the way I made decisions, basically.
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:55.199
But we had a mature team that was taught around it and we leveraged it and we set expectations and all of that, and it was a part of our language, right?
00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:58.400
A lot of MSPs don't care about that, which is fine, you haven't got to.
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:04.880
Um, but you know, on an inbound of a ticket, for instance, AI is uh fine, right?
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:06.079
It's average.
00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:12.400
Um, I think AI for me is just really good at gathering loads of data together, is a long and sort of it.
00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:15.920
Like taking, we use it for recording transcripts, right?
00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:18.159
You can take loads of data and summarize it great.
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:23.360
We use it for account management, you can look at loads of different ticket data and put it in a nice paragraph.
00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:30.639
A lot of the things you're seeing with AI at the minute that they're really party tricks, really, are algorithmic by nature.
00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:37.519
Uh, what I mean by that is is we used AI to auto-schedule all of our tasks into our diary, right?
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:46.159
We gave it all of our appointments, we gave it the time and the start date of the task, and we threw it at AI and it would pick the best slot and it would do it, right?
00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:50.320
Problem is, it would every day mess up.
00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:52.000
It would put it over another task.
00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:56.320
It didn't consider you had a lunch break there, and it was failing over and over again.
00:48:56.559 --> 00:49:01.679
We rewrote it fully with JavaScript, and it has been flawless ever since.
00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:03.360
Because it's very simple.
00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:06.239
When can we do it is a fixed parameter.
00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:08.719
How long does it take is a fixed parameter.
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:10.480
They're all fixed inputs.
00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:14.960
Therefore, we don't need AI to tell us when to do it because we already actually know this.
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:17.519
AI is great for POCing, right?
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:21.599
Without trying that with AI, we probably never would have got here because we don't know JavaScript.
00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:25.360
And AI helped us to write, I'm gonna say some of it, all of it.
00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:26.880
Let's be realistic here, right?
00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:28.079
Who are we kidding?
00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:37.840
Um, like AI is great for that, but I think, and I say this all the time on various podcasts and chats with people is what isn't what makes a good MSP, right?
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:40.880
The service we provide to our clients.
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:46.159
I've never had a client in any sector go, be really good, Kunef.
00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:52.480
When I ring you up, I've got an AI voice assistant and I could spend 15 minutes arguing with that before I could speak to you.
00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:54.400
No one's ever requested that, right?
00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:55.440
No one wants that.
00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:59.920
It's great to fix certain problems, like booking a flight.
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:04.239
If you want to change a flight, I don't need to wait and hold for half an hour to speak to Dave.
00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:07.360
If I could do it via a phone assistant, fantastic.
00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:13.039
If I could securely reset a password via it, a whole other debate for another day, fantastic.
00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:17.599
Certain things it is quite good for if you can trust it, right?
00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:19.920
Which is a whole, again, another debate.
00:50:20.079 --> 00:50:24.960
Um, but I think, yeah, what are we, what are we trying to solve, right?
00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:27.119
I always come back to this, like what problem are we trying to fix?
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:44.239
And this is why I think this topic today around expectations is so hot for me at the minute, because I'm all the time getting dragged into conversations where if we just looked at what the problem was and actually set better expectations at the beginning, we'd have way better outputs nearly all the time.
00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:55.519
That's without using AI or any other fancy tooling, just simple human conversations and simple clarity can solve a lot of problems we have in not in our industry, just in life, honestly.
00:50:55.760 --> 00:51:00.719
If in in so many walks of life, if they just set better expectations, you'd be so happier, right?
00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:03.599
You'd you order a takeaway and they say it's going to be half an hour.
00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:09.280
If they told you it was going to be an hour and it came a little bit earlier, you're way happier with that because they set better expectations.
00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:11.360
Um, it's not unique to our sector.
00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:18.639
It's just a recurrent problem that if we spend a little bit more time at the beginning could massively help us all down the line.
00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:20.639
Or at least I that's what I feel.
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:36.880
No, I I agree with you 100% because I believe that trust is the key to success for any service business, whether that's restaurant hospitality or whether that's managed IT services.
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:46.960
If you set expectations through your marketing and then you fulfill those through your sales process, setting additional expectations that are fulfilled by the operations team.
00:51:47.199 --> 00:51:51.199
The operations team is managing expectations through their account management.
00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:59.440
And you just create this perpetual opportunity to generate goodwill with a group of people to help them achieve their goals.
00:51:59.920 --> 00:52:01.679
That's the most important part of what we do.
00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:11.360
We are, you know, MSPs, TSPs, whatever you want to call us, services the middle name, you know, the middle word in every one of those names.
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:13.039
So I agree with you 100%.
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:28.400
I think the challenge that a lot of people have when it comes to providing service to kind of take it all the way back to expectations and why they're important and why it's a challenge is I feel like there's just a lack of wanting to say no.
00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:37.760
People are just really wanting to make the client or the other person, you know, their teammate, whatever, they just want to make them happy because that's why they got into this.
00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:39.119
They got into it to help.
00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:50.719
And I think that's the challenge of knowing to say, when I set expectations, it actually benefits both of us and it makes us both feel better rather than just us saying yes.
00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:55.280
And I think that's where MSPs really struggle is where do they start?
00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:59.519
Where do they begin the process of trying to set expectations?
00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:08.639
Where do you see MSPs really needing to set those expectations when you're in Halo or you're working with them on some sort of a process development project?
00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:15.360
Where do you see the need to really dig in and say, man, I wish I just started setting expectations here?
00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:18.480
Where does that typically happen when you're working with companies?
00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:21.440
I think it's with their own internal team.
00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:23.920
I think it's with the staff you've got.
00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:25.920
Staff you already got employed, right?
00:53:26.079 --> 00:53:27.119
The people around you.
00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:29.440
Does everyone know what good looks like?
00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:31.760
I had this debate a lot with MSPs.
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:41.519
This person in your sales team, or this person on the project team, or this person on second line, do they know what good looks like?
00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:46.159
And I don't just mean we've hit all these dashboard numbers that are green, because it doesn't mean a lot to us.
00:53:46.239 --> 00:53:48.400
It's not a visceral reaction when there's a widget that's green.
00:53:48.480 --> 00:53:50.239
It's not like, yes, I'm nailing it, right?
00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:51.920
It's I'm not gonna get shouted at.
00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:53.119
It's the reverse, right?
00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:58.320
And I think it's it's yeah, what are we what are we trying to achieve?
00:53:58.400 --> 00:53:59.599
What does good look like?
00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:02.639
And just my head's racing a little bit just because it's funny.
00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:04.079
I've never really connected the dots before.
00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:06.960
Something he said a minute ago really resonated with me about AI.
00:54:07.599 --> 00:54:11.840
I think my frustration with AI is you can't clearly set expectations with it.
00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:14.960
Like you tell it what you want and it may or may not do it.
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:19.519
No matter how what guardrails you put in place, um, it will just not do it.
00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:19.840
Right?
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:22.320
Like that's so I talked to a developer friend of mine.
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:23.280
I'm glad you brought that up.
00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:25.840
He says that's a feature, not a bug.
00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:33.360
AI is developed specifically to create this illusion of creativity and interaction.
00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:57.119
And so, therefore, variance is something that's built into it by default, which is why you found so much more success with creating a script to execute something versus allowing AI to do it, because without guardrails of application management in the way that AI processes information, it's built specifically to do exactly what frustrates you about it.
00:54:57.280 --> 00:54:58.159
Like that's that's your problem.
00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:00.719
No matter what controls, like there's something called temperature.
00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:02.079
I compared AI a lot.
00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:08.159
You can temperature like zero is don't be creative, a hundred or whatever the parameter is, is be free, right?
00:55:08.320 --> 00:55:11.440
You can temperature zero and lock that in and say, never do this thing.
00:55:11.519 --> 00:55:14.159
And one day it'll just go, ah, screw it.
00:55:14.239 --> 00:55:14.480
Right?
00:55:14.559 --> 00:55:16.079
Like, I'm gonna do that thing anyway.
00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:18.800
And that's I've done that with prompts.
00:55:18.880 --> 00:55:21.199
Like I've told the prompt I was like, do not do this.
00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:27.199
And then it did it, and I went back and at some point I start yelling at my AI, and I'm like, why did you do this?
00:55:27.360 --> 00:55:28.639
And it's like, oh, I'm so sorry.
00:55:28.719 --> 00:55:30.400
Yeah, yeah, no, I totally did that.
00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:32.239
I had it today.
00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:37.280
I was I was doing some book tracking on on the app we have, uh you trying to use the MCP server again.
00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:42.559
Just look at the bugs and telling what's going on, and it was like uh billing issue and people using it without subscription.
00:55:42.639 --> 00:55:45.199
And I'm like, what in the like I was like to AMI?
00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:47.440
I was like, how have you because it's looking at all the logs, right?
00:55:47.599 --> 00:55:49.679
I was like, how have you discerned how have you figured that out?
00:55:49.840 --> 00:55:56.800
Like, what you're telling me I'm looking at on this screen going, they don't my children, oh, the hypothetical corner is what there could have been there.
00:55:56.880 --> 00:55:59.760
And I'm like, Jesus, what are you doing to me?
00:55:59.840 --> 00:56:03.440
Like I'm sitting here thinking I've got non-paying subscribers and errors coming out.
00:56:03.519 --> 00:56:07.119
It's like, no, looking at your code, this is what could have been the errors.
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:11.599
And I'm like, geez, like I just I nearly had a heart attack this morning, about half nine.
00:56:11.679 --> 00:56:15.440
I've come in, cup of tea, I just you know, have a look at a few errors from last night.
00:56:15.679 --> 00:56:18.159
The minor for what it's worth, absolutely load of crap.
00:56:18.320 --> 00:56:20.639
But um, yeah, it's like, oh yeah, unsubscription.
00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:24.719
And I'm just like, and it's like, oh, I just assumed, right?
00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:28.320
Um, and I think the anecdote, right?
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:55.679
Um, or whatever it's called, of you know, assumption makes an ass out of me and you, or you and me, or however the hell it is, um, is I think that's where, you know, going back to your question about what problems do we see a lot, it's that assumption layer, it's that assuming, it's that, and we call it expectations, call it whatever you want, but as soon as you start assuming someone's going to do something that you want to do or the way you would do it, you're in for a really rough day, especially as an owner, right?
00:56:55.760 --> 00:57:01.519
Like, I care way more about my company than anyone I employ ever will.
00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:04.239
And you have to be realistic with that.
00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:12.079
Um, I was at an event a few years ago and someone said to me that the best thing you'll do, Connor, is stop expecting people to do it the same way you do it.
00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:22.639
As soon as you let go of that, you'll grow more as a person or grow as a company, or you know, whatever you're trying to do will will be freed up.
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:24.559
Saying no is exactly the same thing.
00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:28.320
There's so many great analogies for saying no helps you grow or whatever.
00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:29.360
I'm gonna butcher them.
00:57:29.599 --> 00:57:31.280
Google them in your own time if you're out there.
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:40.480
But there's there's so many things that, or so many people, so many analogies, which is saying no helps you grow, that you have to start believing it.
00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:43.840
And only by doing it do you actually understand what that means.
00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:50.000
And I think what it means a lot of the time is um, you know, I follow a lot of tradespeople because that's a hobby of mine for some reason.
00:57:50.159 --> 00:57:54.719
Um, and the joke is they always like price up something too expensive not to get the job, right?
00:57:54.800 --> 00:57:56.159
Rather than just saying no.
00:57:56.320 --> 00:57:58.000
Um, can you fit a bathroom?
00:57:58.079 --> 00:57:59.199
Oh, it's gonna be a nightmare.
00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:00.559
No, I'll do it for$10,000.
00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:03.760
Suddenly you get the job and then you're in this world of hell.
00:58:03.920 --> 00:58:06.320
You're four months overdue because you don't know what you're doing.
00:58:06.480 --> 00:58:07.920
You never wanted to do it in the first place.
00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:13.119
Like your team are screaming at you because you they didn't know what you were supposed to do, and you could have just said no.
00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:17.199
And it's not about saying no and suddenly your bank account gets massive, right?
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:26.000
That's not it's not it doesn't, it's not a direct correlation, but it's happiness within the team because you know they're doing things that you agreed you were gonna do, right?
00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:31.679
Um, I think one of the biggest things we see in large MSPs is a big disconnect between the sales team and the engineering team, right?
00:58:31.920 --> 00:58:34.719
Things are sold that we can't do, right?
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:36.960
Because that there's that disconnect all the time.
00:58:37.119 --> 00:58:49.519
And just by being really clear and having real clarity on what you do do and what you are good at, when you start saying no to things you're not good at and focusing on the things you are good at, everyone within the business is happier.
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:54.800
Your sales team can sell it better, your support team can support it better, your finance team can reconcile it better.
00:58:55.039 --> 00:59:10.079
As soon as you start doing something completely abstract because the opportunity was there, the entire business crumbles because you've all got to now figure out how to sell, buy, manage, support, whatever it is you've sold that week, basically.
00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:12.320
I think comes back to your question.
00:59:12.719 --> 00:59:20.400
And I think to that point, there's two points that I that I want to drill in on just real quick that I that I really liked that you said.
00:59:20.559 --> 00:59:23.760
One was letting go, saying no.
00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:41.280
I see that one of the things that I also learned in that leadership course from the Navy SEALs was uh it's better to get 60% out of somebody autonomous of the work that you could do at 100% than for you to have to continue to do that work.
00:59:41.519 --> 00:59:44.719
Because at some point you can get them to get to 80% or 90%.
00:59:45.119 --> 00:59:50.800
Your first time around, they may only get 60% of it right or accomplished the way that you would do it.
00:59:51.039 --> 00:59:52.960
But they'll start owning the process.
00:59:53.119 --> 00:59:59.840
And that's how you start building a team around you and you start creating opportunities for people to learn and grow.
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:08.079
So you have to be able to say, that person's never going to be as good as me at doing that one thing in that one way.
01:00:08.480 --> 01:00:16.719
But they'll get there if that's what they're focused on, and not me trying to do it and do 16 different things at the same time as well.
01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:23.440
So that that's a really important aspect of of what I think you you just said of being able to let go.
01:00:23.679 --> 01:00:31.360
I think that's well the irony is the way you think you do it, that probably isn't the best way either.
01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:35.039
That's a that's a true point.
01:00:35.119 --> 01:00:51.280
And I think that I don't I don't know if that was in the article that you posted, but I think s no, I think it was something else that I read recently said um when a company has an owner or a leader and they are the best at what they do within that business.
01:00:52.239 --> 01:00:55.440
That's that scales up to about a hundred people.
01:00:55.599 --> 01:00:57.760
This was their their hypothesis.
01:00:58.239 --> 01:01:06.079
If that person is still the best person at everything in that business at a hundred people, they'll never get over a hundred people.
01:01:06.400 --> 01:01:14.559
They have to have people that are underneath them that are better than them at sales or better than them at operations management.
01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:31.920
Because once you start getting to a certain size, that that thing that you were just talking about, which was my second point, with these creating processes and expertise of skill between departments, that's where I see the most trouble with an MSP.
01:01:33.519 --> 01:01:56.400
What we start to see is you can be really good as a smaller MSP, but when you have departments and then you have to span work between departments now that you've created a sales group and an operations group, where there that issue that you get between the two teams is because there's not a clear understanding of a process that has to happen in order for sales to do something that operations can fulfill.
01:01:56.719 --> 01:02:05.360
So you get this thing that I call pig tossing, which is you take this big gross thing and you throw it over the fence and hope the other person can catch it.
01:02:05.519 --> 01:02:09.280
Um, I think that that's, in my opinion, where processes become really important.
01:02:09.440 --> 01:02:22.079
I think that that interdepartmental communication, interdepartmental work, I think is the key to where you should maybe start looking at putting processes versus creating frameworks within departments so people can think autonomously.
01:02:22.239 --> 01:02:27.280
But if you have to move that work between different groups, I think that's where maybe a process might be better served.
01:02:28.400 --> 01:02:33.119
Really interesting then, some actual icon of advice, I think, here.
01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:47.519
When you're doing that exercise and you start asking those questions, you need to make sure you're asking what MVP is, or what the smallest barrier is, or the smallest thing you can do to achieve that.
01:02:47.679 --> 01:02:48.000
Right?
01:02:48.239 --> 01:02:58.960
An example being if a client needs a new laptop and the sales team needs to buy a laptop, what is the minimum amount of information the sales team need to deliver on that?
01:02:59.920 --> 01:03:02.239
Is it just rough budget and timescale?
01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:04.960
Is it rough budget vendor and timescale?
01:03:05.119 --> 01:03:20.320
A lot of the time we see because we're in an industry of built around guides and FAQs and SOPs and all of this, we go, okay, well, the technician then must provide the RAM, the CPU, the operating system, the due date, the budget, the 54 things, then you bottleneck the business.
01:03:20.480 --> 01:03:29.119
Because the inputs on the technician, which have never really been employed to do sales, now have to think about every single tangential variable to be able to get the sale to the sales team.
01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:32.880
So what happens is they either don't do it or it sits at them for a week.
01:03:33.039 --> 01:03:40.239
So when you're trying to build any process between even departments or any tasks you're doing or anything really, what's the minimum we need?
01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:46.800
And if you flip it on his head a little bit, to get the outcome, the laptop to the client, what does the client need to answer?
01:03:46.880 --> 01:03:47.840
What do they need to know?
01:03:48.000 --> 01:03:52.960
So I think when you're starting any process, and I'm a big believer of, you know, um, it's an American app in a match.
01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:54.400
They keep it stupid simple, is it?
01:03:54.480 --> 01:03:55.280
Or keep it simple, stupid.
01:03:55.599 --> 01:03:57.039
Keep it simple, yeah, keep it simple, stupid.
01:03:57.280 --> 01:03:58.079
Keep it simple, stupid.
01:03:58.159 --> 01:04:02.400
I learned this, I learned, claimed that very well, but I heard this years ago and it really resonated with me.
01:04:02.480 --> 01:04:05.119
Because everything I do, it's how simple can we make it?
01:04:05.199 --> 01:04:09.599
I'm obsessed with like simplicity in everything I do in my entire life.
01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:14.960
Because as soon as it's really simple and repeatable, it gets done way more accurately.
01:04:15.119 --> 01:04:25.440
As soon as something's really abstract and really complex and really complicated, there's bound to be loads of errors, it's bound to cause friction, it's bound to cause frustrations.
01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:32.400
And the end goal could just be a laptop for$500 and you know, people lost their minds for two days over it.
01:04:32.559 --> 01:04:42.880
Um, and I think the companies that, again, going back to the very beginning of this call, transition into Halo, they're going, how how clean, how easy, how simple can we make our business?
01:04:42.960 --> 01:04:44.159
What are we doing?
01:04:44.400 --> 01:04:47.599
Monitoring security, monitoring patching, helping clients.
01:04:47.679 --> 01:04:50.079
Let's focus on that and do it really well and really easy.
01:04:50.239 --> 01:04:56.400
So we can divert more energy into, I don't know, AI or automation or whatever the other fun stuff we want to learn is.
01:04:56.800 --> 01:05:01.039
Well, and I I like what you said about, you know, that specific example for a laptop.
01:05:01.199 --> 01:05:16.480
I see it in a in a when I look at processes, I've really become accustomed to looking at things from theory of constraint, which is work in, work out, where are the bottlenecks, bottlenecks being a requirement for a system, there will always be them, right?
01:05:16.639 --> 01:05:17.840
They will always exist.
01:05:18.159 --> 01:05:20.079
So where do we want to put the bottleneck?
01:05:20.239 --> 01:05:40.000
And so when you look at a process like that, when you talk about simplifying it, you have this issue where a technician has to figure out what does this client need in order to achieve this outcome of purchasing this laptop and have all these, I have 15 different decisions that I have to make versus taking that decision point, which is your bottleneck, and moving it to another part of the process.
01:05:40.159 --> 01:05:45.679
So, what we would recommend to our clients was you sit down and you go to the client and you said, We've got two laptops.
01:05:45.920 --> 01:05:48.239
There's an admin laptop and there's an accounting laptop.
01:05:48.400 --> 01:05:53.440
And here are all the specifications that you're gonna go ahead and make the decision that we're gonna do 80% of the time.
01:05:53.519 --> 01:05:55.760
So we don't have to bottleneck it with the tech.
01:05:56.000 --> 01:05:59.760
So now we've eliminated that friction of being able to wait for that.
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:06.639
To happen and the sales team can just show up and say, pick one of these two options that everybody's already agreed to, back to setting expectations.
01:06:06.800 --> 01:06:10.559
And you already know from a client perspective, this is how this should work.
01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:12.639
This is about how much these are going to cost.
01:06:12.800 --> 01:06:24.159
And any deviation from one of these two assets is going to require a custom build, which will then move to a two-week turnaround time because they're going to actually have to have an engineer involved to look at it to figure out what I need.
01:06:24.400 --> 01:06:37.920
So I love that analogy because I think that sets the table for the idea of how do you use process to set expectation and how do you take work that could be better used in a different or could be better served in a different part of the process.
01:06:38.079 --> 01:06:46.079
How do you move that work so that you eliminate friction and create higher capacity in certain areas of your organization or higher throughput, I guess?
01:06:47.280 --> 01:06:47.519
Yeah.
01:06:47.679 --> 01:06:53.280
And my my post on LinkedIn last night basically said, you know, we we built a process six months ago.
01:06:53.519 --> 01:06:54.800
We had a BCO in.
01:06:54.880 --> 01:06:59.280
We sat down, we went through every single nth degree, every single thing, every tangential variable.
01:06:59.360 --> 01:07:03.679
And we built a process in, and it was this monster of a workflow in Halo.
01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:06.079
And it was marvelous to look at, right?
01:07:06.320 --> 01:07:08.400
Took months, hundreds of hours to build it.
01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:10.639
Ruined us as a company for three months.
01:07:10.800 --> 01:07:11.840
Absolutely ruined us.
01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:13.840
Because everything was wrapped in process.
01:07:14.079 --> 01:07:16.239
Nobody knew what good looked like at the end.
01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:17.840
That wasn't the question anymore.
01:07:18.079 --> 01:07:21.440
It was, what have I got to do to get to the next step all the time?
01:07:21.599 --> 01:07:25.039
I've got to escalate to you, you've got to review it, I've got to go back, Connor's got to do this.
01:07:25.119 --> 01:07:30.639
And it was just like we just become robots clicking buttons to move the milestone one step further.
01:07:30.800 --> 01:07:31.679
And it was horrific.
01:07:31.840 --> 01:07:41.920
Like it literally ruined us because the question was, and you know, going full circle is no one knew what the expectation was of them other than to click the next box because there were so many boxes to click to get to the end.
01:07:42.079 --> 01:07:44.880
Because I thought the problem was actually output.
01:07:45.039 --> 01:07:46.159
When it wasn't, it was input.
01:07:46.239 --> 01:07:49.199
It's typically, from my understanding, typically always input.
01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:56.960
Um, I was too focused on why didn't we test this thing properly to have now five test procedures and four plans and how do we know what to test?
01:07:57.039 --> 01:08:00.800
Well define it at the beginning, as opposed to just saying, can we test it?
01:08:01.039 --> 01:08:01.280
Right?
01:08:01.519 --> 01:08:05.920
Like a very simple thing, clarity at the beginning, make sure it's tested.
01:08:06.079 --> 01:08:09.679
And if you don't know what that looks like, ask for help from a colleague.
01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:18.640
But I tried to, and again, failing on me, we learn, predict all these outcomes and all these tangents by dictating what I wanted the outcome to be.
01:08:18.800 --> 01:08:27.600
That everyone who was doing the task or doing the thing failed to ask what good look like, failed to remember that we're trying to help a client with a problem.
01:08:27.760 --> 01:08:34.319
And instead, it was this big arduous process of really passing the book, if I'm being honest, you know, blaming each other.
01:08:34.479 --> 01:08:38.720
Well, Connor never typed in this box that you wanted the test strategy to be this.
01:08:38.880 --> 01:08:41.199
Well, but I didn't write that up last night and it's changed.
01:08:41.279 --> 01:08:50.159
And you end up just cycling through documentation and notes and SOPs and guides and all the time to almost not be called out for it failing, right?
01:08:50.399 --> 01:08:52.960
And I often call it the enterprise way.
01:08:53.359 --> 01:08:58.880
An analogy I can make with this is loads of small businesses don't have many like HR policies, right?
01:08:59.039 --> 01:09:01.680
You can go on holiday whenever you like, Andrew, right?
01:09:01.920 --> 01:09:07.760
And then one day you take the piss and you ring in a day before, and then there's a policy you have to book in a week in advance.
01:09:07.920 --> 01:09:17.680
And as companies grow over years and years and years, they get all of these policies in place because one person might have done something a little bit off piece that ruined it for everybody else, right?
01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:30.880
I'm now always trying to be really mindful of that in every interaction we're doing with clients, with our own internal stuff, by saying, is it an anomaly or is it we just never set expectations correctly at the start?
01:09:31.199 --> 01:09:34.319
This is why this has happened as a byproduct of it.
01:09:34.479 --> 01:09:36.000
Is it unique to us as a business?
01:09:36.079 --> 01:09:36.880
Is it individual?
01:09:37.039 --> 01:09:43.039
Is it a training problem that actually I just need to sit down with Andrew for half an hour with before I put in this new way of working for the company?
01:09:43.920 --> 01:09:48.079
I I think that's an amazing place to wrap things up today.
01:09:48.319 --> 01:09:52.319
Um, I I'm really excited about the conversation that we've had.
01:09:52.479 --> 01:09:54.880
Um, so thank you for for your time.
01:09:55.119 --> 01:10:04.399
Um Connor is an expert at process management and integration of technology systems into managed services groups and beyond.
01:10:04.479 --> 01:10:06.319
And so I'm I'm glad that he was here.
01:10:06.479 --> 01:10:14.159
Um we have one last thing to do, which is I'm gonna ask you a few questions, uh, if you would be so kind as to answer them as honestly as possible.
01:10:14.399 --> 01:10:20.159
Um what is the best book that you ever read that helped you in business?
01:10:21.920 --> 01:10:25.359
So uh I can't read books.
01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:26.239
Okay.
01:10:26.720 --> 01:10:34.720
I have never read a book um in my entire life, which um I didn't tell you ahead of time because I thought it would be quite fun.
01:10:34.880 --> 01:10:44.640
Um spoke about earlier, I recently got diagnosed of ADHD, which answers the question as to why I can't read books, because I will read a paragraph and it will disappear from my head.
01:10:44.880 --> 01:10:55.279
Um I've never done, I can't do, I've never been never done any tra I don't have any any any no certifications, no degrees, can't struggle to sit through training, never read a book.
01:10:55.359 --> 01:11:05.199
And I think just to summarize the the hour of chat we've had, a lot of it for me has been learned through feeling and getting feedback from teams and clients as to what has or hasn't worked.
01:11:05.359 --> 01:11:13.760
So in terms of the best book, I I physically it's it's been a frustration for mine for 33 years until recently as to why can't I sit down and read a book?
01:11:13.920 --> 01:11:16.239
My brain doesn't allow me to do such things.
01:11:16.640 --> 01:11:18.399
So let me follow up on that.
01:11:18.560 --> 01:11:22.560
How do you how do you stay on top of things?
01:11:22.720 --> 01:11:24.479
Like what do you, what, what do you do?
01:11:24.640 --> 01:11:29.520
Because there's I'm sure that there are other people out there that are like, awesome, like I'm struggling with the same thing.
01:11:29.600 --> 01:11:31.359
Like, so how do you stay on top of stuff?
01:11:31.439 --> 01:11:35.119
How do you know what's going on with the industry AI?
01:11:35.279 --> 01:11:42.159
Like, how do you even know how some of the you know stuff should work when it when it comes to interacting with with putting processes and systems together?
01:11:42.239 --> 01:11:44.159
Where do where do you where do you educate yourself?
01:11:44.239 --> 01:11:46.079
How do you how do you learn things?
01:11:47.279 --> 01:11:56.399
So I am, I would say 99% of my learning has been YouTube for my entire life because it's been around me growing up.
01:11:56.479 --> 01:12:02.000
I learned to do uh networking by Eli the Tech guy, if anyone knows him from years and years ago.
01:12:02.159 --> 01:12:11.680
Um, I watched every video of his endless times on domains and forests and you know, VLANs, and I'm I learn visually and then by doing.
01:12:11.840 --> 01:12:19.199
Um so for me, I I keep up to date by every night watching YouTube for hours in bed and just being hungry and curious.
01:12:19.600 --> 01:12:20.239
That's awesome.
01:12:20.399 --> 01:12:22.399
And I've heard very similar things from people.
01:12:22.479 --> 01:12:30.399
I'm uh I did not grow up with YouTube, so to me it's it's been super helpful in a lot of ways because I can watch somebody do it, so I'm like excited about it.
01:12:30.479 --> 01:12:34.000
But my first I'm old school, my first is like, where can I go read about this?
01:12:34.159 --> 01:12:36.079
So I have to try to find a book somewhere.
01:12:36.159 --> 01:12:44.000
But YouTube's been invaluable for I'm sure everybody that has ever been a network engineer in the last like 20 years.
01:12:44.079 --> 01:12:45.279
Like it's been a big help.
01:12:45.359 --> 01:12:46.079
So that's cool.
01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:47.920
Super cool.
01:12:49.279 --> 01:12:49.840
All right.
01:12:50.000 --> 01:12:51.680
What's your favorite curse word?
01:12:53.439 --> 01:12:58.880
Yeah, so I like curse words that can be used interchangeably for things that are good or bad.
01:12:59.119 --> 01:12:59.439
Okay.
01:13:00.000 --> 01:13:02.880
So my I don't even want to say my okay.
01:13:03.039 --> 01:13:04.960
And it's the C word, and I'm not gonna mention it.
01:13:05.039 --> 01:13:06.479
I'm not gonna drop the C word.
01:13:06.800 --> 01:13:08.319
It's a heavy word, right?
01:13:08.640 --> 01:13:14.000
For me, if you say it with intention, it's a really powerful word.
01:13:14.399 --> 01:13:16.079
Um, no ambiguity with it.
01:13:16.159 --> 01:13:17.359
There you go, set expectations.
01:13:17.439 --> 01:13:20.800
When you use the C word, you know exactly where you stand with it.
01:13:20.880 --> 01:13:22.560
Um and that's that's why I like it.
01:13:22.640 --> 01:13:27.520
It's that it's it always gets a visceral reaction no matter who you use it on, no matter what time of day it is.
01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:35.279
Um is there, I'm gonna ask, I'm going off script, but I want to ask you because I don't often get a chance to interview someone from another country.
01:13:35.439 --> 01:13:42.239
So is there a which wouldn't be super because I know that some might be that wouldn't be like super offensive.
01:13:42.399 --> 01:13:47.920
Is there a word that you use in the UK, like bollocks or something?
01:13:48.079 --> 01:13:56.159
Is there something that you guys use that you're just like, this is my favorite like local colloquialism, like kind of catch-all for a curse word?
01:13:56.239 --> 01:13:58.720
Is there one that you you like there that you'll kind of use?
01:13:59.199 --> 01:14:00.239
Yeah, I got one for you.
01:14:00.399 --> 01:14:00.640
Yeah.
01:14:00.880 --> 01:14:02.640
I don't know if you guys would use it or not.
01:14:02.720 --> 01:14:06.239
Uh so we use like bell end as a very common term.
01:14:06.800 --> 01:14:08.560
No, I don't know what that is.
01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:13.039
So you are a bell end, can refer to as like dickhead, right?
01:14:13.119 --> 01:14:15.520
Uh but yeah, bell end, there you go.
01:14:15.840 --> 01:14:20.000
That would you would hear that a lot in the UK if you're getting swore at.
01:14:20.560 --> 01:14:22.560
I wouldn't use it in a in a fun way.
01:14:22.720 --> 01:14:25.199
Um but yeah.
01:14:26.399 --> 01:14:26.800
All right.
01:14:27.039 --> 01:14:28.159
Learn something today.
01:14:28.399 --> 01:14:30.479
Um I hear using it now.
01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:30.720
Yeah.
01:14:31.039 --> 01:14:33.520
It's gonna it's gonna be built into my vocabulary.
01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:38.319
Um who's your favorite band or musical artist and why?
01:14:38.479 --> 01:14:40.239
What what are you who do you like?
01:14:40.960 --> 01:14:43.359
My favorite band's a band called Antishikari.
01:14:43.520 --> 01:14:49.199
I've grown up with them as like the 2000s rock punk emo type phase.
01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:52.560
I've listened to them for yeah, 15 years plus now.
01:14:52.720 --> 01:14:58.640
Um I was almost gonna name my son after them, but I turned out not to have a son and had a daughter instead, so we had to pivot.
01:14:58.800 --> 01:15:02.800
Um, we were convinced my second child was gonna be a boy, but a girl popped out.
01:15:02.880 --> 01:15:06.079
We didn't find out it was a surprise, we just mentally got it was gonna be a boy.
01:15:06.239 --> 01:15:09.199
Um, I was gonna name him after the lead singer, but we didn't.
01:15:09.439 --> 01:15:11.359
We had a girl, so she's called Renee.
01:15:11.520 --> 01:15:13.359
So yeah, Bangkok Enter Shikari.
01:15:13.840 --> 01:15:16.000
I like the band just because they're diverse.
01:15:16.560 --> 01:15:21.680
They've changed genre throughout the years, a bit like what we're to do in our sector, right?
01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:24.880
We have to be nimble, we've got to be quick on our feet, we've got to be on our toes.
01:15:25.119 --> 01:15:30.960
As you mature, you change the way you run your business or what you care about or what your values are, right?
01:15:31.039 --> 01:15:32.319
They shift with age.
01:15:32.399 --> 01:15:39.439
And that band, I think, for me, has just grown up with me and has have shifted and changed not to fit the mainstream.
01:15:39.520 --> 01:15:42.960
They're not a mainstream pop band, but they're just, I don't know, they're just fantastic.
01:15:43.279 --> 01:15:46.720
So you said they're like kind of rock, punk, parent, like are they like paramour?
01:15:46.800 --> 01:15:49.840
Like where like where do they fit in to like where where would they fit in?
01:15:49.920 --> 01:15:57.760
Like on the like what would be more of an equivalent kind of big name artists that people might realize like know that that would be equivalent to them.
01:15:58.000 --> 01:16:00.640
I don't know where they would position these days, if I'm being honest.
01:16:00.800 --> 01:16:06.640
Um yeah, similar to that paramour era, they were definitely about that paramour era, there's kind of like rock heavy streams.
01:16:07.039 --> 01:16:11.199
You're like rock emo, and I was like Paramount like kind of more like I saw them live.
01:16:11.439 --> 01:16:11.920
They were really good.
01:16:12.000 --> 01:16:14.000
They put on a great show if you're into that.
01:16:14.319 --> 01:16:16.479
Yeah, they were at the same festivals as them, basically.
01:16:16.560 --> 01:16:18.399
Uh a little bit more edgie, I guess.
01:16:18.479 --> 01:16:22.720
Um I mean I love punk music, so I'll have to check them out.
01:16:22.960 --> 01:16:23.600
Check them out.
01:16:23.680 --> 01:16:24.640
I'll link you afterwards.
01:16:24.880 --> 01:16:25.359
Love it, yeah.
01:16:25.439 --> 01:16:28.880
I need it because I'm gonna put it in the show notes, so definitely send me a link.
01:16:29.520 --> 01:16:30.960
What's the worst sales call?
01:16:31.039 --> 01:16:32.159
And you don't have to name names.
01:16:32.319 --> 01:16:33.359
What's the worst sales call?
01:16:33.600 --> 01:16:35.119
Client meeting, personnel meeting.
01:16:35.199 --> 01:16:39.920
What's the worst experience you had dealing with somebody at work?
01:16:40.319 --> 01:16:40.960
Like, what is it?
01:16:42.159 --> 01:16:43.119
I've only had one.
01:16:43.279 --> 01:16:43.520
Okay.
01:16:43.760 --> 01:16:45.279
Which might sound crazy, right?
01:16:45.439 --> 01:16:50.800
Um, again, on topic today, my pricing's on my website, you know what you're paying for.
01:16:50.960 --> 01:16:53.840
My funnel is YouTube first, you know what you're getting.
01:16:54.000 --> 01:16:59.119
If you get through price and liking me, you know what the call's going to be about, right?
01:16:59.199 --> 01:17:01.680
It's again, I I hate ambiguity.
01:17:01.760 --> 01:17:03.359
You've kind of probably got this from this call.
01:17:03.439 --> 01:17:04.399
I hate the unknown.
01:17:04.479 --> 01:17:06.159
Um, kind of goes in my anxiety.
01:17:06.319 --> 01:17:10.479
So I had a sales call once and it was passed across to me, and I didn't know the person.
01:17:10.560 --> 01:17:12.319
And I said, no, I'm not interested, right?
01:17:12.399 --> 01:17:15.439
Because this is why I hate referrals as well, because they don't know me at this point.
01:17:15.520 --> 01:17:21.760
So I have to sell who I am as opposed to with my funnel, I'm just telling, well, finding out what pollen I can fix for you.
01:17:21.920 --> 01:17:24.319
So I got a sale passed across to me.
01:17:25.119 --> 01:17:27.840
Started the call with standard Connor, right?
01:17:28.079 --> 01:17:38.239
Forgetting he doesn't know who I am by any stretch, which might seem really arrogant, but that's just, you know, most people have spent 20, 30 hours watching me on YouTube or listening to my shit on LinkedIn, right?
01:17:38.319 --> 01:17:40.399
So like you kind of, you know what you're getting.
01:17:40.560 --> 01:17:43.279
Um, and was just saying to him, you know, this is what we do.
01:17:43.439 --> 01:17:44.960
And he was like, I want to do it on my own.
01:17:45.039 --> 01:17:49.279
And I'm like, well, I want to consult in this company, so I I won't do that.
01:17:49.439 --> 01:17:55.439
And basically the guy just shot the call down and basically said I'd completely put him off the product.
01:17:55.600 --> 01:17:57.359
He was never going to buy it again now.
01:17:57.520 --> 01:18:02.079
It was the worst call he's ever had, um, and just went in on me basically for 10 minutes.
01:18:02.319 --> 01:18:06.560
I ended the call with him, um, cancelled my entire day because he just completely threw me.
01:18:06.720 --> 01:18:18.319
Um, rang actually uh head of EMEA Ninja Sales and a guy called David at the time, um good friend of mine, and rang him and was like, because he you know did works in sales, I was like, how the how the fuck do you deal with this?
01:18:18.479 --> 01:18:19.760
Like, I can't do this, right?
01:18:19.840 --> 01:18:22.239
I'm too, I don't know, I just want to help people, right?
01:18:22.319 --> 01:18:26.720
And I was just trying to be honest and like, you know, buying this product is really hard.
01:18:26.800 --> 01:18:28.960
It's gonna take a lot of hours, but that's where we come in to help.
01:18:29.039 --> 01:18:30.159
So you don't have to waste all your time.
01:18:30.239 --> 01:18:34.479
It's like, you've insulted me, I know how to do IT, and you just didn't get me, right?
01:18:34.720 --> 01:18:42.960
Um, and basically what what David said was um, you don't know what has happened in their day leading up to that conversation with you.
01:18:43.199 --> 01:18:49.840
Their dog could have died, something bad could have happened, their partner could have left them, and you was just an easy avenue to vent.
01:18:50.800 --> 01:18:52.239
And you can't let it get you.
01:18:52.479 --> 01:19:02.479
Um touched wood, it's never happened since, it won't happen again because I'm a bit more aware of understanding people don't know me, which again sounds really arrogant, it's not how it sounds.
01:19:03.359 --> 01:19:05.760
Yeah, that was just the biggest shock to me.
01:19:05.840 --> 01:19:09.760
Like the guy hated me and it was a shame because I just wanted to help, right?
01:19:10.000 --> 01:19:12.880
Like, I don't, you know, we turn business away.
01:19:12.960 --> 01:19:16.560
I'm not trying to like power sell or aggressively lock people in.
01:19:16.640 --> 01:19:19.359
I'm just trying to just help with the problem if you've got it.
01:19:19.439 --> 01:19:21.600
Um so yeah, that that sucked at that.
01:19:21.680 --> 01:19:23.600
Um ruined my entire day.
01:19:23.760 --> 01:19:25.199
But we learned from it.
01:19:25.680 --> 01:19:33.920
As long as you've learned from it, like I think a lot of people will just be like, people are assholes, and so you know, that guy was just an asshole.
01:19:34.079 --> 01:19:46.319
But I think it's it's one of those things where that's some of the best advice I think I've ever heard a partner give another partner, which is, hey man, sometimes people are just having a bad day and you you got the shit end of the stick and I'm sorry.
01:19:46.479 --> 01:19:58.479
But because some of the that's true, I've I've actually had I've had situations where things didn't go well and there was a some back and forth, and then someone called me a couple days later and they're like, hey man, like I'm sorry.
01:19:58.560 --> 01:20:00.479
Like I should I this was what was going on with me.
01:20:00.560 --> 01:20:16.399
And I was like, oh, yeah, that or I was dealing with somebody at a client and they came in on me and I escalated to the owner of that business, and I was like, I don't, I'm not gonna be okay with this person talking to me or my team like this.
01:20:16.479 --> 01:20:22.399
And they were like, listen, this person's wife just got diagnosed with cancer, or you know, their kid was in a terrible accident.
01:20:22.640 --> 01:20:23.920
Like, and you're just like, oh.
01:20:24.079 --> 01:20:32.079
I mean, it doesn't necessarily make it right, but it also helps you to understand that like it's not always personal and people aren't always just you don't lose faith in humanity as much.
01:20:32.239 --> 01:20:34.880
You just kind of realize like everybody's got their own stuff going on.
01:20:35.279 --> 01:20:37.359
Well, it's a great summary to this call, right?
01:20:37.520 --> 01:20:39.760
And it all comes back to expectations.
01:20:40.319 --> 01:20:46.800
If you're really clear up front with your expectations, then I think you'll have a much happier life, right?
01:20:46.960 --> 01:20:53.039
In that situation where I've I've seen MSPs where their engineers are getting abused by end users, basically.
01:20:53.199 --> 01:20:54.479
And I'm like, I wouldn't.
01:20:54.640 --> 01:20:57.119
There is no way I would ever allow that at Renada.
01:20:57.600 --> 01:21:01.279
Um, I would be in there on a call within minutes, and my team know that.
01:21:01.359 --> 01:21:02.560
So my team are trusted in that.
01:21:02.640 --> 01:21:04.239
They expect me to handle that.
01:21:04.479 --> 01:21:09.520
Um, so yeah, I think it's people can be shit, right?
01:21:09.680 --> 01:21:10.399
I can be shit.
01:21:10.479 --> 01:21:13.600
You know, I wake up grumpy some days and I'm not the best me, right?
01:21:13.760 --> 01:21:18.800
Um that happens, and I think, yeah, being aware of that is helpful.
01:21:18.880 --> 01:21:21.840
I see a lot of LinkedIn posts about people emailing and swearing at people.
01:21:22.000 --> 01:21:24.159
I'm just like, yeah, I could get it though.
01:21:24.239 --> 01:21:28.159
Like something like 94 sales emails, it's really frustrating, right?
01:21:28.239 --> 01:21:32.399
It's it's how you take it is you know, offense is taken, not given, right?
01:21:32.479 --> 01:21:34.640
A lot of the time, but you can certainly imply it.
01:21:34.720 --> 01:21:36.479
And I think that sales core with me.
01:21:36.640 --> 01:21:39.279
I think you wanted to make me cry, certainly is what it felt like anyway.
01:21:39.359 --> 01:21:40.640
So yeah, it's a tough one.
01:21:40.800 --> 01:21:40.960
Yeah.
01:21:41.840 --> 01:21:42.800
Well, thanks for sharing that.
01:21:42.880 --> 01:21:46.239
That's great for everybody to hear how how you got perspective on it.
01:21:46.479 --> 01:21:55.039
Um well, just to kind of like wrap up here, I always like to know if there's someone out on the channel that I should talk to that I haven't talked to yet or that you might recommend.
01:21:55.119 --> 01:22:05.439
So is there a person out there that you think would be great to share their story or something that somebody's been coming to you with that you're like, man, you should talk to this person because they've got a real unique perspective on stuff.
01:22:05.600 --> 01:22:08.159
Like, who do you who do you recommend people check out?
01:22:08.239 --> 01:22:10.800
And maybe I can entice to come talk to me for a few minutes.
01:22:11.680 --> 01:22:14.159
So um I'll I'll shout out Chris.
01:22:14.239 --> 01:22:18.640
So Chris is our factional coup, VCOO, whatever you want to do it.
01:22:18.800 --> 01:22:21.199
I reached out to Chris a couple of years ago from Ethicai.
01:22:21.680 --> 01:22:23.840
Um, he he loves reading.
01:22:24.000 --> 01:22:26.159
Um, I actually use Chris as my source of books.
01:22:26.239 --> 01:22:27.039
It's a running joke.
01:22:27.119 --> 01:22:28.399
Like, just give me the highlights, right?
01:22:28.479 --> 01:22:29.600
Of like this thing you've learned.
01:22:30.000 --> 01:22:31.760
Um, he's he's geek.
01:22:31.840 --> 01:22:34.399
Where I'm obsessed with technology, he's obsessed with business, right?
01:22:34.560 --> 01:22:34.720
Okay.
01:22:34.880 --> 01:22:39.600
And just for everyone today, I'm not telling you I know the answers how to solve all these problems, right?
01:22:39.680 --> 01:22:43.199
It's I'm just trying to make you aware of these problems probably exist.
01:22:43.359 --> 01:22:47.119
And these could be some ways you might try and approach them, but I'm no business expert.
01:22:47.199 --> 01:22:52.880
Whereas Chris has, yeah, um done the research, walked in those shoes, I guess.
01:22:52.960 --> 01:22:54.159
It's very ops-heavy.
01:22:54.319 --> 01:22:58.399
Um, read every single book about how to grow business and what doesn't work and what does.
01:22:58.479 --> 01:22:59.680
For me, I'm more reaction-based.
01:22:59.760 --> 01:23:01.760
I've felt it, I've learned by failure really.
01:23:02.000 --> 01:23:04.960
So I we work with Chris, have done for a few years.
01:23:05.039 --> 01:23:15.279
He's kind of keeps me sane and level-headed um and helps me on the operation side where I'm most inexperienced because I'm leading technical teams.
01:23:15.359 --> 01:23:17.199
I never ran a company before.
01:23:17.279 --> 01:23:20.720
So yeah, I I'm shouting out Chris today from Ethicai.
01:23:21.439 --> 01:23:22.000
I love that.
01:23:22.079 --> 01:23:24.479
And I'm and what was Chris's last name again?
01:23:24.800 --> 01:23:25.520
Chris Cook.
01:23:25.760 --> 01:23:26.479
Chris Cook.
01:23:26.640 --> 01:23:36.479
Um, I think it's I think it's refreshing to hear a leader in the in the channel that says, I don't know everything and I rely on other people to help me be smart.
01:23:36.560 --> 01:23:46.800
I think that that's a really great lesson for a lot of people to to to take from this conversation today, which is you may not know everything, so you should probably find people that do.
01:23:46.960 --> 01:24:08.479
And I'm hoping that uh that that message resonates with folks because you know, coming back to full circle, setting expectations where you're like, I may not know everything, but I can certainly find somebody who can help us, I think is the crux of what a great service delivery team does, which is just to say exactly we may not have been great at it.
01:24:08.560 --> 01:24:11.199
We're experts at it, but we'll figure it out, right?
01:24:11.680 --> 01:24:15.039
The best saying is you just don't know what you don't know.
01:24:15.199 --> 01:24:18.800
Um I use it all the time, I overuse it really, but it's true.
01:24:18.960 --> 01:24:23.920
And everything I do, I'm almost quizzing myself of what don't I know about this?
01:24:24.079 --> 01:24:34.000
Like, where am I gonna get stuck and what's gonna trick me up, and then that's where I go and seek help, or that's my team, or you know, um I say we all grow or fall together at Reneda.
01:24:34.399 --> 01:24:36.479
Um, a lot of decisions we make are as a collective.
01:24:36.720 --> 01:24:43.840
So yeah, if we're doing something we've not done before, we agree with it as a team, as a collective, and we jump in.
01:24:43.920 --> 01:24:45.279
Um it doesn't work out.
01:24:45.439 --> 01:24:50.880
Well, we all had our input, we all tried, and we'll fall together, luckily.
01:24:50.960 --> 01:24:56.079
Um touch wood today, that hasn't happened, but you know, it's it's we do it as a as a company, so yeah.
01:24:56.399 --> 01:24:56.880
I love that.
01:24:57.039 --> 01:24:57.520
I love that.
01:24:57.600 --> 01:25:09.039
Well, Connor Fagan, thank you so much for your time today, and I look forward to continuing to watch great things out of Renata and continuing to work with you with our clients to drive outcomes.
01:25:09.119 --> 01:25:10.720
So thanks again for being here.
01:25:11.119 --> 01:25:11.920
Cheers, Andrew.
01:25:12.000 --> 01:25:12.560
Thank you very much.
01:25:12.800 --> 01:25:13.439
Cheers.