Why Talking About Trauma Isn't Enough

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So there is a term called psychodrama.
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And I'm guessing that a lot of our listeners have not heard that before.
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But today we are going to talk about that.
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Welcome to Hey Tabby, the podcast where we talk about the hard things out loud with our actual lips.
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We'll cover all kinds of topics across the mental health spectrum, including how it intersects with the Christian faith.
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Nothing is off-limits here, and we are not take two verses and call me in the morning.
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I'm Tabitha Westbrook, and I'm a licensed trauma therapist, and I'm not your trauma therapist.
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I'm an expert in domestic abuse and coercive control and how complex trauma impacts our health and well-being.
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Our focus here is knowledge and healing.
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Trauma doesn't have to eat your lunch forever.
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There is hope.
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Now, let's get going.
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Welcome to this week's episode of Hey Tabby.
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I'm actually here with someone I'm quite fond of.
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He is the executive clinical director of Begin Again Institute.
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Begin Again is up in Boulder, Colorado, and they do 14-day intensives for men who are struggling with compulsive sexual behavior.
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They also do women's betrayal trauma intensives.
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Are those also 14 days?
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Those are six, six days.
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Six days.
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So the six day, which I think you guys are the only group I know of that does the betrayal trauma intensives, which is super cool.
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They they have them at Daring too.
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Do they?
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Mm-hmm.
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Well, I'd send everybody to you.
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No, but no no shade to Daring.
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Um, but I'm friends with Matt.
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But I'm really excited to have Matt here today.
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Thank you for being on Hey Tabby with me.
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Thanks for having me.
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I know we've been talking about it for a long time, so we have.
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I'm excited.
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You know, we have Matt and I think we've seen each other at every conference.
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Now, if you're watching this on YouTube, you're gonna go, this is a really different vibe than the normal Hey Tabby.
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And that's because at the conference that we're at, which is the Hope for Healing conference by Lit Path, we are given the gift of having a podcasting space.
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And so we absolutely took advantage of that.
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Like, dude, let's record in person.
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So we decided to do that.
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And I'm super grateful that we got to.
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So much more fun.
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Way more fun.
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Way cooler.
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What is psychodrama?
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That's a great question.
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Um, psychodrama is an externalization of an internal process or a dynamic between someone and an individual, another individual, or someone and a part of themselves, or uh a set of feelings or thoughts.
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So it's an externalization of an internal process.
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So how I relate to my family of origin, how I relate to thoughts or feelings, or addiction, or anything like that.
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We we bring it from out of the body or out of the mind into a three-dimensional uh space where the person can interact with it.
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And you know, the process, the person, the feeling.
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And it is able to access a part of relational healing on part of our brain that is built for connection.
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Uh, and so the the healing happens in that space in a way that's different than um other modalities, and it can be really exciting.
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I think that's really cool.
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And it feels very embodied.
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Yeah.
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Like it feels like it wouldn't be one of those therapy modes that you could easily stay up in your head.
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Oh, yeah, there's no way to do it in your head because you're involving literally like you're involving your whole body, right?
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And most people have all these kind of defenses against that sort of thing where they can um uh you know think things away or have certain, you know, set responses to things.
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But when you're like physically engaged with it in a relational context where I have to deal with this in some way, it takes people off guard.
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And so their kind of reflexive responses won't work.
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You know, and uh and and you can find I I call it a side door when I talk about especially men's work.
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You can't go in the front door, the front door's locked to whatever emotional space you're trying to get into.
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Um, you know, it's got a padlock, it's got a chain lock, it's got the whole deal, right?
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And so I can try to kick down that door as a therapist, but I mean, there's gonna be a ton of resistance there, and we might not like how that goes.
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But if we can find a side door, a way into their emotional system, a way into their thoughts and feelings that are more vulnerable, um, it'll it it has to surprise them too.
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Now, I I think clients that are less resistant than addicts typically are, um, can do psychodrama and they're prepared for it and they can still get a lot out of it.
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But we like to kind of um uh use it as a uh almost a surprise.
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Because I can't I can't build up my defenses to it.
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One of the easiest defenses, obviously, for psychodrama is humor.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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Like this is ridiculous.
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This person isn't my grandma, and like, hey grandma, you know, like it's right.
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They they try to disarm that.
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But but we have rules, right?
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Of like, hey, we're not gonna make fun of this process, we're not gonna make fun of each other.
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There's no room for jokes here.
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This is a way in which we run from our work.
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We're not gonna run, we're gonna head right for it.
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So it's really useful in men's work and it's relational, like you said, so you can't um can't dodge it.
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It's it's it it it engages the whole body, the whole system.
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Right.
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Would you say, and I know my experience, because I've done some of this in the work that I do with folks, would you say that it makes it almost because you you mentioned the element of surprise with it?
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It's a little bit unusual.
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Yeah.
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But it's also very disarming in some ways, right?
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Because you can't use intellectualism, you can't use humor in a way, you know, that you might normally to deflect and push away and all of those things.
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But you can, you know, like I I think you're mentioning like, oh yeah, hi, grandma, whatever, right?
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Yeah.
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But there is a thing when you lean into it, even just a tiny little bit, your body goes, Oh, we're going here.
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And you almost can't stop what happens next.
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Yeah, it is odd like that.
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And so when I first learned about it in grad school, we watched a video about psychodrama.
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And I thought it was the dumbest, stupid, most performative thing I'd ever seen.
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Like obviously I didn't know what I was talking about because I'm in grad school and I'm still learning, right?
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But I thought it was ridiculous.
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But when I actually got into the work of relational healing and depth trauma work, engaging with the imagination of the client is often this really just fertile area that, like you said, they're not even prepared to go in.
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They they they I don't talk to my mom like this.
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I don't talk, I don't have my dad and I would never have a conversation.
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Well, let's have a conversation today.
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Yeah what would a conversation today look like?
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Oh, it'd be it'd be weird to talk to my dad about this sort of thing.
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Well, is weird just another word for scary?
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Dad.
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And we're like, oh fucking, and so all of a sudden we're having this brought emotionally weighted conversation with someone who, you know, feels kind of like pick somebody in the group that feels kind of like your dad.
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And there's all sorts of therapy work to be done there, right?
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Like, how do I identify that and why that person and not this one?
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And you know, it's it's I love that.
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I I find in just for me in intensive work, and this isn't true for everybody, but talk therapy is is so boring to me because you can do that runaround.
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Yeah, right.
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And stay distant.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And give it to engage with it.
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The thing that moved the needle for me too was um Do you remember the movie Inception?
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Yes, yeah.
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Okay, we don't uh uh incept our clients, right?
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Don't put ideas in their head, but um they had this scene from the film where if you like if you put a safe in the dream in the architecture of the dream, then the then the person you're trying to steal from will automatically put their gardened secrets in that safe subconsciously, right?
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Um I think that we started doing that with uh our psychodrama, where we'd have them pick a prop.
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We have all these like kind of uh garage sale, you know, uh thrift store kind of things that seem emblematic in some way.
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We'd have them pick an object and like pick an object that reminds you of dad.
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Well, what they're doing when they do that is they're they're imbuing that object with meaning for them.
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Right.
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And then tell me why you picked that.
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And all of a sudden now they're talking about that and they're talking about how they feel about that, and they're telling me about why this object reminds them of dad, and it's hurt or sadness or anger.
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And now I'm gonna hand that to this person who's playing my dad in this drama.
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So now not only am I there relationally, but I've all I've imbued this process with meaning, right?
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Yeah.
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And it's filled the safe, so to speak.
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And now all of a sudden, all of that rawness, all of that relationship is now like being held in that space.
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And you didn't do that as a therapist.
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They brought the meaning to it.
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And that is the that's the juicy stuff of change.
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When you can when they're when you're not you're not like pulling to that one.
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Yeah, they're they're they're with you.
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Yeah.
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And we're gonna see where this goes, right?
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And yeah, good therapy tends to go to good places and eventually, you know, but yeah.
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I think that's amazing.
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It's such an it's a unique way to work.
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I don't know a ton of people that use it.
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You know, I I know a lot of people that do EMDR and brain spotting and all kinds of other things.
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I know in our practice we tend to do things very similar, you know, to this.
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And probably why you and I get along really well, actually.
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I think we therapize pretty similarly.
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Yeah.
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Um, but like using like the whole self and these things that represent like these places that are really hard to intellectually touch.
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Yeah.
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They're really hard for people to lean into because it hasn't been safe, right?
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Like I can think of a lot of clients who need to say something to their abusive ex, you know, but they can't just call up their abusive ex and say all that they should not.
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It would be a bad idea, you know.
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But there are things they need to say about this is the way that you hurt me and this is what happened to me and the way myself was stolen in this place.
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And yeah, you know, to be able to walk that out with another human who isn't that person that can represent that person and objects that are meaningful, yeah, you know, that you can ascribe meaning to, that's huge, you know?
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Like that's that's the fernal ground of healing for people.
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Yeah, and and the funny thing is that a lot of people don't want to do it at first because of what you're describing.
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I don't want to call this person, I shouldn't call this person, this person isn't in my life anymore.
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And they'll say stuff like, what good is it to do?
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They're dead, or they're out of my life, or you know, what's the point?
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You're gonna try to reconcile this relationship with this person, and uh and it what's the point of that?
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Right, for whatever reason.
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And that's be I love that because what they're saying to you is by committing to this modality, this experience that we're gonna have, I somewhere inside of me believe that change in this relationship is going to happen or possible, right?
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Which is actually a deeper belief in the process than I have, you know, right because they're not physically here.
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But the reality is that we're not changing the dynamic with that person.
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Right.
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We're changing the way that we feel about the dynamic.
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It's internal, right?
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I don't need the person to actually be in the room.
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It's how I feel and how I interact within this relationship, whether it be to a person or a thing or a behavior or a part of myself, however, whatever it is that you're dramatizing, right?
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That it it's it's an inside job.
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And they think it has to do with changing this other person, which is fundamental to addiction and control, is that how do I get this other person to change their behavior when in reality I'm the one that that is needs to change?
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So we get to do that without giving them a lecture about it.
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Yeah.
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You know, and yeah, and and it's a deeper way because it's experiential, right?
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Yeah.
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Like change happens when we experience ourselves differently than you know, the way that we have been.
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And I know in working with the folks who struggle with addiction, like they at first especially do not think there's an other side and they don't know what it's sitting on top of nine times out of ten.
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Yeah.
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You know, and if they do have a clue that there might be some traumatic experiences there, they're like, I have been avoiding this my whole life.
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I'd like to continue.
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I recognize it as trashing everything that I have, but this seems way scarier.
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Shouldn't we run from this?
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Right.
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But in some ways, like leaning in with the psychodrama, which is again like sort of an outside the box way of doing it, a very embodied way of doing it.
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It's disarming, it's deeper work, and it makes it scary and less scary at the same time, right?
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Like it's that both and of it.
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Yeah.
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Because it's like I'm doing something, especially for people who are very rigid.
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Yes.
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You know, and for me, a lot of survivors come to my practice who like they've never been allowed to be fully themselves.
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They've never been allowed to fully use their voice.
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You know, they're learning how, hopefully.
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But to do a psychodrama and to say, like, let's lean into this place together.
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What would it be like if you did?
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What if, you know, what represents this for you?
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Yeah.
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And I I've I I believe in this kind of theory of of healing.
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It's kind of EFT, you know, emotion-focused therapy, where uh where we're gonna create an exception.
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Like I don't normally do this in these relationships, but we're gonna do it differently this time.
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And we'll see how that feels.
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See the this wound that hasn't quite closed, like what what happens to that place when we do it differently this time.
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And then and you get all that resistance up front.
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But when we've actually gone through that process wherever it takes us, um, there is a real change.
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And I am not quite related to that thing the same way anymore because there's this exception that has been um encountered, and I can't deny that.
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It lives in my memory now.
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So there's something different that I can do.
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And I've, you know, guys will tell me, you know, I I I feel like I'm I I'm have a new memory of that experience.
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Like this is, you know, um, we call it like a corrective emotional experience, right?
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We're replaying this thing that went poorly, but this time we're gonna have a better outcome.
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And you know, that completes the the healing cycle there.
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That's what so much of therapy is that, right?
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Like a half done healing, right?
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Like I survived this event, but it's the pain is not finished working itself through.
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It's half finished, right?
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So we had to go back to the pain, which nobody wants to do, but resolve it all the way back.
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And I'm invincible.
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I I made it through that moment.
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I what didn't destroy me.
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I'm still here.
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Little wounded self, we made it, you know?
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Yeah.
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And then yeah, that's it's a it's a beautiful thing to be a part of.
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Yeah, and and just so for people listening and watching, you know, it doesn't mean that the bad things didn't suck.
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Right?
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Like I think there's always it used to irritate me no to no end.
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Um, I probably shouldn't say this out loud, but I'm gonna uh when they'd be like, you need to get to a zero on the subjective units of distress.
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And it's like, man, some things aren't a zero, right?
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Like sexual being sexually abused as a child is never gonna be a zero.
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You cannot ever have that be a neutral feeling.
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Like it's gonna be like, yes, that sucked, and I'd rather it didn't happen.
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Yeah.
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But at the same time, it doesn't own you.
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Yeah.
00:19:34.379 --> 00:19:34.619
Right.
00:19:34.700 --> 00:19:43.420
So even if it's a one or a two on so for those listening and watching, it's a zero to ten scale where zero is nothing or neutral and ten is oh my god, that's the worst thing ever.
00:19:43.659 --> 00:19:58.220
Um, and you know, everybody was taught like get it to a zero, and it's like that's also bypassing someone's reality in some ways, but you can have a different relationship to it where it's like, yes, this is part of my story, but it is not my story.
00:19:58.379 --> 00:20:00.299
Yeah, it's not the totality of my story.
00:20:00.539 --> 00:20:07.420
Well, yeah, I think that's what trauma is in some ways, is that it has the power to tell me who I am and it has the power to tell me what the world is like.
00:20:07.579 --> 00:20:08.139
Yeah.
00:20:08.460 --> 00:20:16.379
And completing the healing of a traumatic experience, it does take away that kind of power.
00:20:16.539 --> 00:20:22.700
Like this is always going to be a sad, painful thing that happened to me, but now I get to have my identity back.
00:20:23.180 --> 00:20:27.500
I get to experience the world in a new way.
00:20:28.299 --> 00:20:48.220
When we encounter trauma as young people, and we have this idea that the world is dangerous and it's not safe to be explored and experienced, then there's a part of me that is gonna remain on guard in so many of my spaces that's gonna keep me from living a full, happy, and healthy life.
00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:55.180
I'm I'm always this isn't safe, and I might be enjoying myself, but uh, I'm kind of over here.
00:20:55.819 --> 00:20:58.379
And uh, you know, that's the goal, right?
00:20:58.619 --> 00:20:59.259
Yeah.
00:20:59.819 --> 00:21:03.899
There's a message that that trauma told me about myself.
00:21:04.139 --> 00:21:13.259
I'm weak, I'm not perfect, I'm not good enough, I'm you know, I'm bad or whatever, inadequate, or whatever the word is.
00:21:13.420 --> 00:21:26.299
And then there's also this belief that we have about the world that it's unsafe or dangerous, or I reach out and people hurt me, and I reach out and people project me, and and we get to undo that work.
00:21:27.339 --> 00:21:35.259
And it's that's never gonna happen by encountering up here the intellectual parts.
00:21:35.500 --> 00:21:42.139
It's gonna be in the experience, it's gonna be in the deep places, you know, that kind of work.
00:21:42.460 --> 00:21:42.700
Yeah.
00:21:43.099 --> 00:21:46.940
I know I've heard you say before that the water will run where the ditch is dug.
00:21:47.099 --> 00:21:49.259
And that's from the neural pathway perspective.
00:21:49.339 --> 00:21:53.339
And one of the things I often say in my own practice is we are going to dig a new channel.
00:21:53.500 --> 00:22:00.940
Sometimes it's like a teaspoon in the Grand Canyon wall and it goes real slow, but we are going to dig a new channel, but you also have to backfill that old one.
00:22:01.099 --> 00:22:01.259
Yeah.
00:22:01.420 --> 00:22:05.899
And that is through the experience of, you know, experiencing yourself differently.
00:22:06.059 --> 00:22:17.420
And I would imagine that this is really powerful in a group where people are instead of being turned away from, which might be their the person's overall experience, like everybody's turned away from me.
00:22:17.500 --> 00:22:25.339
Everyone is like not wanted to be part of my story, but then they're relating within the group and people aren't turning their faces away.
00:22:26.059 --> 00:22:33.899
That is why I think group therapy is the best intervention for addiction recovery.
00:22:34.139 --> 00:22:46.139
Because in every wounded place, young people that develop addictions later in life, or as young people, they were they had to figure it out on their own.
00:22:46.299 --> 00:22:46.779
Right.
00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:50.619
I have all of this hurt and pain, and I have to deal with it on my own.
00:22:50.859 --> 00:22:57.579
What we do to in the corrective uh experience of that is I have all this hurt and pain, and people move closer to me.
00:22:57.740 --> 00:22:58.139
Yes.
00:22:58.379 --> 00:22:58.779
Right.
00:22:59.099 --> 00:23:10.619
Whether that's other people in the group or it's their response to a younger wounded self, like we're we're gonna close the distance, we're gonna move closer.
00:23:10.859 --> 00:23:24.940
Um there's also this element too of when you're in group therapy and you get to be a part of someone else's healing process, like you gain something from that if you're paying attention.
00:23:25.259 --> 00:23:37.819
If you're playing their abusive father or you're playing the their them the wounded self, is you know, a lot of times we'll have guys play another guy's wounded little boy, right?
00:23:37.899 --> 00:23:46.859
And they're watching themselves experience these these memories or these relationships and trying to better understand their relationship to their own pain.
00:23:47.740 --> 00:24:02.379
Well, you talk to that guy after the drama is over, and he's just like, oh my gosh, I like I was actually sitting in this pain, and I realized that maybe for the first time that that I'm not alone in my pain.
00:24:02.539 --> 00:24:15.819
Like if mine is that and his is that, then you know, it just opens up this new door of empathy for them, or you know, having to play your Abusive father was really, really hard, and I hated it.
00:24:15.980 --> 00:24:19.420
And it also gave me a lot of compassion for what he went through.
00:24:19.579 --> 00:24:24.539
And you know, my dad was like that sometimes, and I didn't like that didn't click for me.
00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:30.539
Or I'm worried that I might have be I might be becoming that.
00:24:31.180 --> 00:24:33.420
And I hated the way that that felt.
00:24:33.659 --> 00:24:43.420
And I'm I'm I'm not always aware of what I do when I get angry, but in that moment I was play acting and I could see the effect it was having.
00:24:43.579 --> 00:24:48.700
And because they're not actually getting angry, they're playing someone who's angry, right?
00:24:48.859 --> 00:25:52.519
And so they have this observational stance to themselves.
00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:55.559
Like the breakthroughs are like dominoes.
00:25:56.200 --> 00:26:04.200
This guy's having a huge emotional moment, and then we take a break, and this guy over here is crying because of what he said, and now we're over here with this guy.
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:09.640
And it's it's it's a you know, what do they call that?
00:26:09.880 --> 00:26:14.759
The dominoes, you know, that click into all the machines and the marble falls down.
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:15.559
A root gold.
00:26:16.120 --> 00:26:23.559
Yeah, it's a root gold machine of therapy, like around the room and watching people experience these things and being a part of it.
00:26:23.720 --> 00:26:31.960
And um yeah, and it's something that you real that you can only really do well in a group, right?
00:26:32.120 --> 00:26:32.279
Yeah.
00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:36.200
Because you gotta usually have a couple of people that you're relating to.
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:48.120
You can do it in one-on-one therapy, maybe with props or like an empty chair kind of thing, but uh yeah, there's nothing like doing it in group therapy.
00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:55.160
Groups are such a very valuable way of getting support and healing.
00:26:55.400 --> 00:27:00.920
I think that people underestimate them and think like, why am I going to have to put on pants and go see other people?
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:02.920
I swear that's like the millennial vibe.
00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:04.680
Like, why do I have to put on pants?
00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:05.480
I don't want to put on pants.
00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:06.759
Why do you want me to do that at like 5 p.m.?
00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:07.400
Yeah.
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:08.360
You know?
00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:16.279
But like when you're in those spaces that are with other people, even if it's an online group, there are still a lot of things you can do.
00:27:16.360 --> 00:27:25.799
But if you can do in person where you can do some of these tactile hands-on things, it is very healing because like you're having this moment all together.
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:26.279
Yeah.
00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:33.480
You know, and and everybody's experiencing it a little bit differently through our own lenses, but you know, it it's profound.
00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:42.200
You know, and I know I have felt like the weight of things break open in those spaces where you're like, man, we just did some big stuff.
00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:46.200
And and then even to process that, like, what was that like for everybody?
00:27:46.360 --> 00:27:49.799
Even the people not actively participating are still actively participating.
00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:50.279
Right.
00:27:50.440 --> 00:28:02.920
You know, like man, when like so-and-so was acting like the abuser, like I wanted to punch him in the face, and I had like realized what's going on in me for that, or like I was really angry or I felt scared and I wanted a fawn or whatever.
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:05.000
Every time, yeah.
00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:15.799
In when I we do a lot of group work at beginning again, and I always tell folks if you can find an in-person therapy group once you leave, like that's gold.
00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:17.640
You should definitely be a part of it.
00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:38.839
Because the the the the other thing about group that that people don't understand is that when I'm in a one-on-one therapy session, I can hold secrets, I can mess with the dynamic between me and the therapist, I can control that or try to, or just give them certain information.
00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:49.079
You know, like there's so many ways in which people that are in um, you know, addiction or denial or whatever can can mess with that process.
00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:53.640
But when you bring somebody into a group, there's a different system that comes online.
00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:57.480
It's not just my relationship, it's my social system that's coming online.
00:28:57.799 --> 00:28:57.960
Right.
00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:44.839
And now I how I relate to the group is it's a lot of ways a reflection or a microcosm of how I relate to everyone in my life, and everyone can feel it, and you can feel it, and it's almost like you're dealing with uh-oh, a more vulnerable part of who they are because no one feels perfectly comfortable in groups all of the time, and so that sense of vulnerability, and then when someone um allows the process to bear fruit and they say the thing out loud to a group and get feedback about it, either as BS or as you know, very powerful or whatever, like you're gonna get that feedback.
00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:49.240
And you're if you're doing good group work, it's hey, what did you guys feel about that?
00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:50.360
You heard him just say that.
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:57.240
What came up for you is they said and you don't always have to be the bad guy when somebody is spouting whatever.
00:29:57.480 --> 00:29:59.079
You can be like, How did you guys feel that?
00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:03.079
And they'd be like, I felt like that was really inauthentic and dumb.
00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:08.039
And you could just sit there and they have to reckon with all of that.
00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:08.759
That's it.
00:30:09.160 --> 00:30:10.360
They have to reckon with reality.
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:17.160
And in one on one, they're just really trying hard to manipulate the reality of just this one other person, right?
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:20.839
But in group, it is reality, so it has this different power.
00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:22.920
So when I say things, they have more meaning.
00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:28.519
When other people say things to me and it's more than one person, then it has an impact on my reality.
00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:30.120
I can write off a therapist.
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:31.079
That's just your opinion.
00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:31.480
Yes.
00:30:31.720 --> 00:30:38.680
But if I have the whole group reflecting that back at me, then you know, that's a different thing.
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:50.680
And what's happening in like from a social science and a neurobiology perspective is when I'm being vulnerable and getting that kind of feedback from other people, my brain is rewiring in real time.
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:55.400
It's creating new connections as I'm building these vulnerable connections with others.
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:57.079
Like I think crazy.
00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:00.440
That's stuff like that would be epigenetics, yes, I believe.
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:05.559
Um, or quantum, there's qu it's quantum physics also at play um with all of that.
00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:13.400
Like, so even like right now, you and I sitting here, we're actually impacting each other's DNA because of relational proximity.
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:14.279
Oh, okay, yeah.
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:16.599
And so, like when we do that, right?
00:31:16.759 --> 00:31:26.680
So if I'm rewriting neural pathways and you're part of that, then I'm rewriting things in you, you're rewriting things in me as we work together through these more tender spaces.
00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:32.920
You know, and we, as Kurt Thompson says, Yeah, we are all coming into this world looking for someone, looking for us.
00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:39.079
And when we're in a group of addicts or trauma survivors, well, addicts are trauma survivors for the most part, right?
00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:45.400
Like if we're in these spaces where there's this deep harm, it's happened at the hands of someone in relationship.
00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:54.279
You know, and oftentimes for the people that we work with, it's the people who should have cared for them, their parents, caregivers, people like that.
00:31:54.519 --> 00:31:58.360
And so they're like, is my life even worth anything?
00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:00.759
Like, you know, will you be with me in these places?
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:11.799
And when they experience those touch points, it is profoundly healing to be like, oh my gosh, like A, I have words for the things that happened, B, I have a different experience with the things that happened.
00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:12.120
Yeah.
00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:15.240
And C, like nobody ran out of the room screaming.
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:15.880
You know?
00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:16.920
Yeah, which is the same thing.
00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:20.200
Now granted you're sort of an inpatient facility, so it's a little harder for them to get out.
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:21.000
But yeah, yeah.
00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:22.039
We have their keys.
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:24.519
But they still don't try to run out.
00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:25.079
Right.
00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:25.640
Yeah.
00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:43.160
I I love how you mentioned Kurt Thompson because I in his book, The Soul of Shame, uh, he mentions this in that like the vulnerability and authenticity in like a group therapy situation is rewiring the your brain for connection.
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:54.039
And um, I remember I was on the phone with a partner who was sending their their addict to treatment and just like, please tell me that like you can do something.
00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:55.559
And I said, you know what?
00:32:55.640 --> 00:33:04.200
I just put down this book, and you know what this book says, that we are rewiring our brains in real time and social relationships and renewal and healing.
00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:26.759
And and um the reality of that brought her so much hope that I mean there is a space, there's still like someplace for her husband to go and get better and uh that's deeper than just a new set of ideas or a new set of strategies or a new book that they've read or whatever.
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:37.240
Like, no, if it's it's it has to be embodied and it's gonna be reflected right in our neurobiology, even though we can't, you know, see that with a microscope.
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:43.000
And I would also say, like, you know, because I'm I'm a big fan of being mindful about hopium.
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:48.360
And hopium is the stuff that a lot of our trade partners get into because they're like, we're gonna send them here.
00:33:48.519 --> 00:33:49.559
This is gonna fix it all.
00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:51.160
Yeah, they have to want it.
00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:51.880
Yeah, right.
00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:59.960
They have to lean into what I'm doing really isn't getting me what I need for real, right?
00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:03.640
Might be getting me what I want in some ways, but is it really what I want?
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:05.240
Like, I have questions about that anyway.
00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:05.640
Yeah.
00:34:05.799 --> 00:34:10.839
But like they have to be willing to come to the party and they're they're gonna get data regardless.
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:23.079
So whether it is a hey, they leaned in, they're starting to change, or they have absolutely run away from the process of change.
00:34:23.239 --> 00:34:25.159
Like that's data for a betrayed partner.
00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:25.639
Exactly.
00:34:25.799 --> 00:34:26.039
Right?
00:34:26.119 --> 00:34:31.319
Like that's data to say, hey, you know, good luck and Godspeed, man.
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:32.759
Sometimes he needs to go do what he needs to do.
00:34:32.839 --> 00:34:34.279
It might not be with you, right?
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:38.360
You might need to get yourself out of this situation because it's it's not gonna be safe.
00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:41.480
He's not willing to come to the table and feel.
00:34:42.039 --> 00:35:01.079
I mean, thank goodness, like those kind of conversations have been really rare, you know, for me in my professional career, but I'm not gonna say that that's never happened because when you go to those places with a group and somebody just says, Nope, not gonna do that, you know.
00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:22.840
Um I remember I had this guy in group that was um he had this embodied kind of anger and power to him, where he would sit really high in this chair and he would get like this big, you know, and he felt enormous.
00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:27.320
Like that his emotional kind of presence felt daunting.
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:28.440
It felt huge.
00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:35.480
And when he would stand up to go to the bathroom, I'd be reminded that he was he was like five five or something.
00:35:35.640 --> 00:35:37.320
He was just he was a small man.
00:35:37.720 --> 00:35:51.480
He was I guess he was wide, like he had wide shoulders, but he was a small guy, and it was just blew my mind every time because the way in which he projected power into the space was so so embodied, so big.
00:35:52.120 --> 00:35:55.079
And and he was the emotional center of that group.
00:35:55.240 --> 00:35:58.760
And if he didn't participate, then other people wouldn't participate.
00:35:59.160 --> 00:36:02.680
You know, he was kind of granting permission, he had that kind of sway, right?
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:06.200
And so he basically said, you know, we're not gonna go there.
00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:10.519
And that had a huge impact on other people's healing.
00:36:10.599 --> 00:36:18.519
You you know, we talk about agreements in therapy a lot, you know, like we're making an agreement that we're not gonna go super vulnerable here.
00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:21.240
And so we had to go after that.
00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:37.800
We had to go after because, you know, hey man, I'm gonna do the very best I can for you and your family and what we do here, and I'm not gonna settle, you know, and just let you sit there and and not get anything out of this.
00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:56.280
But you're right, people against their own good will sit in their stuff and and and fight for their version of reality, for their understanding of themselves.
00:36:56.519 --> 00:36:57.079
Yes.
00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:00.039
However diluted it might might be.
00:37:00.680 --> 00:37:01.079
Yeah.
00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:11.640
Well, and I think, you know, like some of the groups that we run, so we run men of peace groups, which are for destructive men, you know, who are not relationing well at all with their spouses.
00:37:11.960 --> 00:37:20.120
And I think about that dynamic where you have someone who will not come to the table well, you know, and it does impact the whole rest of the group.
00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:30.440
I'm thinking of one of the groups that we ran where there was one particul person in particular and he was esteemed because he had what we would consider worldly status in some ways.
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:30.760
Yeah.
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:35.159
And when he was present in the group, everybody sandbagged.
00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:39.719
When he wasn't present in the group, like the nights that he missed, totally different vibe.
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:41.400
We could have vulnerability.
00:37:41.480 --> 00:37:49.240
And one guy in that group who was definitely moving toward change actually took a chance on real vulnerability.
00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:51.719
It made this guy really uncomfortable.
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:54.519
Like I was watching and I was like, oh, this is amazing.
00:37:55.320 --> 00:37:57.079
As a therapist, I was like, this is great.
00:37:57.240 --> 00:38:04.039
Yeah, you know, but this one guy like was so vulnerable about the destruction that he had caused his family and everything.
00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:10.280
And all the other guys were like, we don't know what to do because dude A over here is clearly uncomfortable.
00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:13.079
And dude B is like, I am in the weeds.
00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:13.719
Here we go.
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:18.440
And I was like, I want to see how this plays out in the group and see how everyone interacts.
00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:28.199
And it ended up being very tense and uncomfortable, but really good, you know, because it kind of pushed everybody to look at what was happening for them.
00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:44.119
And as the facilitators, we were like pulling all the threads, right, you know, and seeing where it would go because like it was like, yeah, somebody dared to stand up to the person exuding the unspoken rules of groups, yeah, you know, by being genuinely vulnerable.
00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:49.559
And that person didn't know what to do, which I think was ultimately really good for them as well.
00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:56.360
Even though they felt standoffish, even though they didn't participate, there was that experience of like something is uncomfortable here.
00:38:56.679 --> 00:38:57.719
Yeah, I love that.
00:38:57.960 --> 00:39:10.760
Because whenever you can create a dynamic like that in a group, you're really you're you're getting into the process of how they're feeling and how they're encountering the world, not the content of what they say or do.
00:39:11.719 --> 00:39:17.559
You know, I can see that you're uncomfortable with this person's vulnerability.
00:39:17.719 --> 00:39:20.199
What where do you think that's coming from inside of you?
00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:21.639
Oh no, I'm not uncomfortable.
00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:23.960
I'm not uncomfortable.
00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:25.000
Everything about you looks uncomfortable.
00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:26.360
It's really interesting.
00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:27.800
What does comfortable look like?
00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:34.679
They're all like this, you know, and like hold like I remember one guy was talking to me about that.
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:39.320
He was literally holding himself kind of like a like a like a little child.
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:47.320
I that's why I hate zoom therapy, is because you can't see that it's harder, it's harder.
00:39:47.559 --> 00:39:49.000
Because you're only getting this, right?
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:53.639
But yeah, hey guys, like let's call him John or whatever.
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:57.079
Hey John, um, I don't want don't move a muscle.
00:39:57.320 --> 00:40:01.079
Just stay exactly how you're sitting right there.
00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:07.639
And then, guys, what are you seeing in this posture, this body language, right?
00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:20.440
And if it's closed or if it's a little like this or judging or whatever it may be, there's so much information there that sometimes we don't even have access to as a therapist.
00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:20.760
Right.
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:23.480
Because I don't have another voice that will agree.
00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:23.960
Right.
00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:27.240
Be like, hey, you look really closed off in your body language, they'd be like, No.
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:28.920
Hey, totally fine.
00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:29.320
Right.
00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:32.920
But if you like leverage the group and you say, What do you guys see?
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:40.360
And this guy and this guy and this guy is like, yeah, you seem really closed off, you seem really uncomfortable, and then it's like they well argue with reality.
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:41.480
I mean, right.
00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:45.719
I'm just the therapist here, but you know, there's so much leverage in that.
00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:51.159
And man, in terms of psychodrama, there's so many different ways to use that too.
00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:58.199
Like if somebody doesn't want to participate, then they're a great person to play someone's you know, disconnected dad.
00:40:58.599 --> 00:40:59.320
Yeah, right.
00:40:59.880 --> 00:41:01.719
So we'd like you to be the dismissive person.
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:03.320
You're already there.
00:41:04.119 --> 00:41:06.760
You're you're typecast here, but you know what I mean.
00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:09.719
So this happened like just like literally like a week ago.
00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:15.480
We're doing this deep emotional work with this guy, and he's just bawling his eyes out.
00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:29.240
And one of the group members who had initially come over to like put a supportive hand on him had gotten bored and was just kind of sitting, zoning out and just kind of furrowing his brow, and who knows what he was thinking about, but he tended to do that a lot.
00:41:29.480 --> 00:41:35.719
And he was because he was having trouble engaging with vulnerability for any length of time, right?
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:37.559
So he would pull out, yeah.
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:44.199
And I was looking at his face and man, he seems disinterested, slightly irritated, perfect.
00:41:45.240 --> 00:41:47.000
Can you come in and play dad?
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:52.599
And I want you to sit perpendicular, where you're only like looking at him halfway.
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:56.760
And that is where he was at.
00:41:56.920 --> 00:42:04.199
So he wasn't really, you know, he didn't, you know, he earned his Oscar or whatever, but he didn't really have to play anything up.
00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:05.639
He would, that's just how he was.
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:12.119
And his um irritation with being voluntold only added to it.
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:12.519
Right.
00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:13.639
Perfect, right?
00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:24.440
And so this guy is like interacting with his apathetic, disinterested, bored, you know, dad that he grew up with who had his attention everywhere else.
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:24.840
Right.
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:29.159
And here's a perfect encapsulation of that.
00:42:29.639 --> 00:42:38.280
But the side effect of that too is now this person who is half in, half out is fully in, whether he likes it or not.
00:42:38.440 --> 00:42:38.599
Right.
00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:40.440
And he's gonna start to feel things.
00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:43.880
So and then he has to reckon with those things.
00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:52.119
Yeah, and two days later he's the guy saying, you know, I want to find myself.
00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:55.000
I've I've I've never really known myself.
00:42:55.159 --> 00:42:58.599
I've always just been living in reaction to the events around me.
00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:04.280
And and in two days ago, he was well, he wanted to be anywhere else.
00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:04.679
Right.
00:43:04.840 --> 00:43:05.960
He was trying to check out.
00:43:06.199 --> 00:43:06.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:09.240
That's the power of you know, back to psychodrama.
00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:09.960
Here we are, right?
00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:12.840
But um, that's the power of that kind of stuff.
00:43:13.159 --> 00:43:14.920
Everything is raw material.
00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:15.400
Yeah.
00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:18.280
You know, for if you're creative, you know.
00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:29.880
Yeah, which I think then again, it's such a great modality for groups, you know, because you can get to those deeper places in a way that is not manufactured.
00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:31.400
It's set up, yeah, right.
00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:39.240
You set the stage for it, quite literally, but you know, you don't have to manufacture circumstance, right?
00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:50.920
We're really bringing in the experiences of life and the experiences of each other to have this moment of like, oh, yeah, this is so much deeper than I ever could have thought.
00:43:51.320 --> 00:44:09.639
Oh yeah, because well, I get a little nervous talking about this part because I know there are folks that like the phrase retraumatization is like big for them, and I'm really wary of that.
00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:21.320
When we train our staff and when we practice these things and develop skill with these things in our in our team, where we want to um evoke emotion.
00:44:21.639 --> 00:44:27.159
We're gonna do our best to not provoke this person, but we may.
00:44:27.719 --> 00:44:39.079
Um, but as long as we stay with it, and as long as we stay with them and support them, and the event um has a resolution to it.
00:44:39.159 --> 00:44:45.800
It's not perfect, it's not totally like 100% cathartic, you know, gone, you know.
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:52.679
But as long as it has a different ending and a more supportive ending, like there's no way to re-traumatize them.
00:44:53.240 --> 00:44:56.440
Then we would have to have that circumstance and then just leave them there.
00:44:56.599 --> 00:44:58.199
Right, which is exactly what you're not doing.
00:44:58.599 --> 00:44:58.840
Exactly.
00:44:59.000 --> 00:44:59.320
Right, right.
00:44:59.639 --> 00:44:59.880
Yes.
00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:07.000
We're gonna respond to it this time, we're gonna be present to it this time, we're gonna do what needs to be done this time.
00:45:07.240 --> 00:45:07.480
Right.
00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:17.719
And in and I I have very few like qualities that I have to have in my clinicians when I'm interviewing folks.
00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:25.320
Um, because I want them to be teachable, I want them to be, you know, uh flexible and smart, those are all really good qualities.
00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:32.760
But the one that I don't um I I won't hire folks that I don't think are creative.
00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:48.920
Because if I can't see my way to another outcome here, or if I can't see my way to uh what was the unmet need, what's the unresolved thing, then then yeah, there is a risk that we could leave them in that place.
00:45:49.240 --> 00:45:52.360
But but I mean it's a small one.
00:45:53.079 --> 00:45:58.840
Re-traumatization is also a risk when you are in like a timed therapy session.
00:45:59.159 --> 00:46:14.280
If I've got 50 minutes or an hour and a half, and I've got to get this thing going and then wrap it all up and close it up nice and neat, and you know, put it away, and we should be doing that with our clients, especially in week-to-week therapy.
00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:22.199
And if I don't do that process of putting it away and making sure that we can leave it and come back and get it if we need it.
00:46:22.360 --> 00:46:33.079
If we don't do that process, then we can create these raw nerves that then and go and are gonna relapse because we haven't we've left that wound open.
00:46:33.320 --> 00:46:33.559
Right.
00:46:33.880 --> 00:46:39.079
You know, so um I think that is the value of intensive work.
00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:46.679
I know we do intensives at our practice, not 14 days because we're not an inpatient facility, but we do like three to five days sometimes.
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:50.440
But like, you know, of the like having that longer.
00:46:50.599 --> 00:46:52.679
So A, you can engage with it more deeply.
00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:57.400
Yes, you can go more into it and have a completely different experience.
00:46:57.559 --> 00:46:57.800
Yes.
00:46:57.960 --> 00:46:58.119
Right.
00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:08.119
I think is it Gabor Mate that says something along the lines of um trauma isn't what happened to you, it's what happened in you because of the absence of an empathic witness.
00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:08.840
Yeah, right.
00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:13.079
So we're definitely not gonna re traumatize people.
00:47:13.559 --> 00:47:18.840
I think this is especially for younger therapists or for people who've had crappy therapy and which is so frustrating.
00:47:19.079 --> 00:47:22.199
I I I wish there were not crappy therapists in the world for them.
00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:23.159
They really do.
00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:26.760
But like where it's like, hey, I'm not gonna leave you in this.
00:47:26.920 --> 00:47:27.159
Yeah.
00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:28.679
Like we're I'm I'm with you.
00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:31.719
I'm gonna build the, you know, attunement and relationship with you.
00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:33.400
And we're gonna go out the other side.
00:47:33.559 --> 00:47:37.400
I always tell my clients, we may walk through the valley of the shadow of death, but we are not making camp.
00:47:37.480 --> 00:47:42.519
You know, we are going out the other side of it, you know, and but I'm gonna walk with you in it.
00:47:42.679 --> 00:47:46.920
Like we're not gonna engage the darkness without remembering there's light.
00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:49.159
We're gonna keep one foot in the light all the time.
00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:51.559
We're gonna have these new experiences together.
00:47:51.800 --> 00:48:02.760
And in an intensive format, like you have the time so that you can help people feel all the way through something and have that new experience and do some things that maybe they wouldn't do.
00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:07.719
I know in our office, one of the favorite things that we have are these little um chicken slingshots.
00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:08.199
Okay.
00:48:08.440 --> 00:48:09.880
They're like shaped like little rubber chickens.
00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:12.679
You stick your finger and you pull their feet back and you fling them.
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:23.960
And we had chicken Olympics in the common area of our office to see how far you can fling a chicken because it's playful, it's reparative to not being able to have delight or whimsy.
00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:31.320
There's bilateral movement involves, like it's a very intentional type of intervention that you can only do when you have enough time.
00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:31.639
Yeah.
00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:34.840
In a 15-minute session, it's a lot harder to do chicken Olympics, truly.
00:48:35.079 --> 00:48:35.240
Yeah.
00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:50.199
Well, you're trying to open something and close it within these little 15-minute sections because if I'm looking at the clock and I've got 10 minutes left, then I can't do the thing that I think needs to happen because there's no way I can close it back up in time.
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:57.800
Like a lot of guys that are coming into treatment, they have a pretty high ACE score, you know, that kind of thing.
00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:00.199
And that's adverse childhood experiences.
00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:00.920
Yes.
00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:03.400
Um a lot of trauma.
00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:16.679
And so one of the ways they've protected themselves from that trauma is by not engaging with any of those emotions or sensations or relationships that have to do with it.
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:20.199
So they haven't, like I said earlier, like this locked front door.
00:49:20.440 --> 00:49:29.400
So even if we get into the psychodrama, they're um uh they're they're like they're only half in at first.
00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:29.639
Right.
00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:34.119
Like, hey mom, uh, okay, what do I need to say to mom?
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:38.679
Um uh mom, you were not there for me.
00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:41.800
And then they kind of look at you like, am I doing this right?
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:51.800
But let's say mom, you know, I've heard this one too many times, like she would would break or break spoons, right?
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:55.880
Over the kids and some tough stories, right?
00:49:56.199 --> 00:50:05.960
Well, if sh if he's talking to mom and he's only half in, and I have one of the other group members stand behind him and hold a wooden spoon.
00:50:06.280 --> 00:50:10.360
Oh gosh, I found that in my body as you were saying it.
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:11.639
Oh my goodness.
00:50:12.440 --> 00:50:15.320
We also know what kind of evangelical upbringing I was brought up in now.
00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:17.400
Oh man, right?
00:50:18.280 --> 00:50:22.599
And then all of this, you see their whole body change.
00:50:22.760 --> 00:50:23.559
Yeah, right.
00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:31.719
And I was working with this guy a couple weeks ago, and he was like, I'm like, ooh, I'm feeling that like ring in my head.
00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:40.519
And now this dynamic with mom, who was the violent one, uh, is now meaningful.
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:51.480
And it has the emotions that were unresolved anger, resentment, right, you know, um, grief that you were not the mother that I needed.
00:50:51.639 --> 00:50:54.199
You were not story time and chicken soup.
00:50:54.440 --> 00:50:55.719
You hurt us.
00:50:55.880 --> 00:50:56.280
Yeah.
00:50:56.599 --> 00:51:02.679
And man, I think the what is that re-traumatization?
00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:06.119
No, we're actually engaging the pain.
00:51:06.280 --> 00:51:06.679
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:08.599
So that we can feel through it.
00:51:08.679 --> 00:51:16.280
And what they were about to do was half-ass a really deep experience that needed to be built through.
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:18.920
And they're like, I wish you would stop doing that.
00:51:19.079 --> 00:51:22.199
And in my head, I'm saying, brother, because I love you, I won't.
00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:22.599
Right.
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:26.440
Because what you're doing here is you're gonna finish.
00:51:26.679 --> 00:51:27.079
Right.
00:51:27.240 --> 00:51:27.639
Right.
00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:30.199
And you know, it's there's all sorts of things.
00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:31.960
That's why I keep all these props around.
00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:40.440
Like if it's belts, you know, you got that oh god, I'm over here having all these like feelings now because I'm like, dang, that sounds like my childhood.
00:51:41.320 --> 00:51:47.639
Well, something you know, the snapping noises they make, or or the the even the jingling of the buckle.
00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:48.519
Yeah, right.
00:51:48.679 --> 00:51:50.519
And people are right there.
00:51:51.079 --> 00:51:53.639
Right there, because the body remembers, right?
00:51:53.800 --> 00:52:06.519
Like I think those are the things that get written into the narrative of the traumatic experiences that when we finally can engage with them and in a safe place, which really a group setting when it's done well is a safe place.
00:52:06.679 --> 00:52:06.920
Yeah.
00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:17.559
That you can let your body feel like, oh, I remember the snapping of the belt, I remember the tapping of the wingspoon, remember being told to go outside and get a switch or whatever it was, right?
00:52:17.800 --> 00:52:17.960
Yeah.
00:52:18.119 --> 00:52:22.920
Or being put in the corner or whatever it was for the person that they can go, yeah.
00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:27.559
And that younger part of them is like, oh, we're fully here now.
00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:28.519
Like, we're in.
00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:32.840
And you get to walk all the way through it instead of having to compartmentalize it.
00:52:32.920 --> 00:52:37.159
And I think that's part of what happens and why we end up with addictions, right?
00:52:37.480 --> 00:52:43.240
Take these horrible things, we compartmentalize them, we try to shove them in what I refer to as the Ghostbusters containment unit.
00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:45.960
You shove it down, shove it down, shove it down, right?
00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:52.119
And then you anestheti it with sex addiction, alcohol, substance use, whatever it is.
00:52:52.360 --> 00:53:00.679
And every now and again that containment unit breaks, everybody gets slimed, you know, or like the substances are weighing you down, the process is weighing you down.
00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:06.920
It's not letting you be fully present and there, and you've learned to anestheti everything, including good things.
00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:07.400
Yeah.
00:53:07.639 --> 00:53:18.039
And so being able to go back to those places and go, I'm gonna feel all the way through this this time, and I'm gonna do it with when witnesses who are with me in it, who aren't just gonna leave me alone in it.
00:53:18.119 --> 00:53:20.760
I think that's also the fear is I'm gonna be left alone, in my opinion.
00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:21.159
Yeah.
00:53:21.559 --> 00:53:24.280
And I I don't have to do this alone anymore.
00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:31.079
And then that, especially for men, like, and I don't know, I'm clearly I'm not a man, so I will lean to you for this.
00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:40.440
But like for men in particular, what I observe is they don't know how to really engage emotionally with other men in healthy ways.
00:53:40.599 --> 00:53:44.360
You know, there's a lot of like coarse talk and things like that that I see.
00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:44.679
Yeah.
00:53:44.920 --> 00:53:52.599
But when you can get in a room full of other guys and have that vulnerability and have it be done safely, like that's bonding.
00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:53.159
Yeah.
00:53:53.320 --> 00:54:00.679
And we've like we forget that our culture has been formed by crisis, disease, and war.
00:54:01.480 --> 00:54:06.840
I mean, there's no generation of Americans that have not known another generation that knew war.
00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:07.480
Yeah.
00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:15.480
And, you know, from the Civil War to World War One was a somebody could have been a touch both of those wars.
00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:17.559
We feel like they're a million miles apart.
00:54:17.719 --> 00:54:25.559
And then it's, you know, the Great Depression, and there's World War II, and then there's Korea, and then there's Vietnam, and then there's, you know, Afghanistan, the Gulf War.
00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:27.400
We have known nothing but wars.
00:54:27.559 --> 00:54:37.960
So all of these men who feel like they are masculine and normative because they watch beer commercials and Marlboro ads and all that, like we really don't know.
00:54:38.119 --> 00:54:45.880
We've been traumatized by survival uh settings, and so we don't know how to be vulnerable.
00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:46.199
Right.
00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:48.840
And uh no one taught us these tools.
00:54:49.000 --> 00:55:05.559
So when a guy gets there experientially, I'm so proud of them each time because they don't know whether or not the other men are gonna respond to them or make fun of them, or would they come, would they dare to comfort?
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:19.159
And when a guy gets there experientially and they begin to cry in that sadness or or vibrate with that hurt and anger to have other men come and support them, just a hand on the shoulder.
00:55:19.320 --> 00:55:21.960
Yeah, it's so startling.
00:55:22.119 --> 00:55:24.679
They had no idea that that was a thing that could happen.
00:55:24.840 --> 00:55:29.639
And um that's the healing, right?
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:38.280
And they're in it and they've made it through this moment with this person that hurt them or whatever, but they are being comforted and they're strengthened through that process.
00:55:38.360 --> 00:55:43.400
And then we say, What are you believing about yourself right now that is true?
00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:45.639
We're so used to believing the lies, right?
00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:48.119
But what's the true thing that I'm believing right now?
00:55:48.280 --> 00:55:53.800
Yes, and that's usually the that's that's the the way out, right?
00:55:53.880 --> 00:56:04.679
That's the uh the the end of the process when I can feel through it and then leave like like like you know, uh the the hero's journey, right?
00:56:04.840 --> 00:56:14.760
I have I'm returning home with a new belief or a new understanding of myself or something else in the world, and it their belief could like I am strong, right?
00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:21.159
Or I am lovable, or I am worthy of rescue.
00:56:21.400 --> 00:56:27.000
I should have been rescued, I deserved that, and I wasn't, you know.
00:56:27.559 --> 00:56:32.039
And that's the the good stuff, that's the juicy stuff, right?
00:56:32.280 --> 00:56:42.679
And that, you know, you know, I I do so much work in evangelical spaces, and you hear all of like the king's table and the foxholes and all this other stuff.
00:56:43.719 --> 00:56:44.679
I'm like, cool.
00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:46.119
Um It's a different episode.
00:56:47.480 --> 00:56:56.920
And I think about it, and I I had the occasion to speak at a church pretty recently, and one of the guys and I were chatting afterwards, and we were talking about the man card, right?
00:56:57.000 --> 00:56:59.800
And he's like, I don't want to be emotional and get my man card revoked.
00:56:59.880 --> 00:57:02.840
And I was like, actually, who's the manliest man you can think of?
00:57:02.920 --> 00:57:05.159
And he's like, Well, Jesus, because that's the right answer in Jesus.
00:57:05.240 --> 00:57:06.199
Right in church, yeah.
00:57:06.519 --> 00:57:18.280
And I was like, Well, Jesus wept and he had all these emotions, and you know, so what if what you're actually doing is enhancing your man card instead of having it revoked?
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:21.079
What if we've had a lie about what the man card is altogether?
00:57:21.159 --> 00:57:24.119
And he was just like, you know, I love that.
00:57:24.280 --> 00:57:28.840
And I think like that's the beauty then of having that vulnerability is your man card isn't revoked.
00:57:28.920 --> 00:57:46.599
You are actually more fully who you are, more fully man when you have the entire range of yourself and you have the entire range of emotions, and that's gonna enhance your relationships, you're gonna have real intimacy because there's not gonna be this barrier of I can't let you close.
00:57:46.760 --> 00:57:46.920
Yeah.
00:57:47.159 --> 00:57:48.280
Because what if you knew?
00:57:48.440 --> 00:57:48.679
Right.
00:57:48.840 --> 00:57:49.000
Right.
00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:54.760
I mean, if they're going to begin again, there's some things that have come up, obviously, that are less than ideal for relationships.
00:57:55.559 --> 00:57:57.079
Well, you said it earlier.
00:57:57.240 --> 00:58:04.599
Like if I pick and choose what I will feel, then I'm acting I'm gonna lose more than what I bargained for.
00:58:04.920 --> 00:58:05.240
Right.
00:58:05.320 --> 00:58:09.480
I can't numb out this particular emotion without taking the rest of them.
00:58:09.639 --> 00:58:10.119
Right.
00:58:10.440 --> 00:58:22.440
And when I try to numb out sadness or hurt or uh whatever, well, all of the tender stuff and sadness, and yeah, I lose joy too.
00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:23.400
It all goes.
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:27.240
And I'm left with usually just one, and that's usually anger.
00:58:27.400 --> 00:58:30.679
That's the only one men feel really safe accessing sometimes.
00:58:31.159 --> 00:58:32.440
Sometimes not even that.
00:58:32.760 --> 00:58:39.800
But yeah, you you lose all of that, and and you're less than human when we do that.
00:58:40.039 --> 00:58:43.880
God created us with emotions, he's not punishing us for feeling them.
00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:48.840
Like he wants all of us, he wants healing for all of us, and so right, yeah.
00:58:48.920 --> 00:58:50.840
I say that all the time, you know.
00:58:51.880 --> 00:58:57.639
Is it is it more manly to feel your feelings or run from them?
00:58:57.960 --> 00:58:58.599
Right.
00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:02.599
Which requires courage.
00:59:02.840 --> 00:59:05.240
Right, right, feel your way through it.
00:59:05.559 --> 00:59:08.280
Well, um, um, you know, uh, you know, right.
00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:13.480
I I can I can work that up, but you know, I just don't feel that courage within me.
00:59:13.639 --> 00:59:18.119
It's like, man, you feel fear, and so courage is a choice on top of fear.
00:59:18.280 --> 00:59:20.679
It's not when you don't feel fear, right?
00:59:20.840 --> 00:59:22.440
It's what you do when you are afraid.
00:59:22.599 --> 00:59:23.800
That's courage, you know.
00:59:23.880 --> 00:59:30.360
Like, am I if you're not afraid and you're courageous in battle, then you're just an idiot.
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:31.639
You just don't, yeah.
00:59:31.880 --> 00:59:32.679
You know what I mean?
00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:35.000
Right, like there's gotta be a little wisdom there, right?
00:59:35.079 --> 00:59:42.280
That's not the ideal soldier, is to just be not afraid of anything, it's what I choose to do in my fear.
00:59:42.440 --> 00:59:46.360
And when I put it that way for guys, they it's just the G it's the Jesus thing.
00:59:46.440 --> 00:59:48.760
Like they never can disagree with that.
00:59:48.920 --> 00:59:49.240
Right.
00:59:49.400 --> 00:59:53.800
I've been spending my whole life running from my feelings and calling it strength.
00:59:54.039 --> 00:59:54.679
Right.
00:59:55.559 --> 01:00:00.280
Oh you know, yeah, wow, and what what what are you gonna do with that?
01:00:00.360 --> 01:00:09.800
You know, you can keep that up, or we can we can you know create some exceptions, you know, in your in your sphere of experience, you know.
01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:10.679
That's awesome.
01:00:10.760 --> 01:00:13.000
I could talk to you like all day about these things.
01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:16.840
Like we could just sit here and nerd out the whole time and be amazing, but then nobody would watch.
01:00:17.079 --> 01:00:19.639
Um But actually, maybe they would.
01:00:19.719 --> 01:00:21.400
Maybe they would just listen to us for six hours.
01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:21.880
I don't know.
01:00:22.119 --> 01:00:22.599
Who knows?
01:00:22.760 --> 01:00:23.639
We're pretty great.
01:00:24.280 --> 01:00:25.880
We are in fact, pretty great.
01:00:26.039 --> 01:00:29.480
Um I'm really grateful that you have been here with me, hanging out with me.
01:00:29.559 --> 01:00:30.760
I'm glad we got to do this in person.
01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:33.639
It would have been fun either way, but it's way funner this way.
01:00:33.880 --> 01:00:39.400
And you know, I have like so many more things I want to ask you, so we will just have to come back and we'll have to do it again.
01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:40.039
Anytime.
01:00:40.519 --> 01:00:41.240
I'm really grateful.
01:00:41.320 --> 01:00:48.599
And we will have all the contact info for begin again um in the show notes so people can access that, reach out to you guys.
01:00:48.679 --> 01:00:54.440
I definitely recommend your program for you know, men who are struggling with compulsive sexual behavior.
01:00:54.679 --> 01:00:55.719
I think it's a great program.
01:00:55.800 --> 01:01:06.199
It's worthy that you have a Christian men's intensive and a, you know, not necessarily religious um men's intensive as well, in addition to um the betrayed partner uh week that you guys do.
01:01:06.360 --> 01:01:08.199
So just good stuff, really good stuff.
01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:09.240
Y'all are good eggs.
01:01:09.400 --> 01:01:11.719
Good eggs over there at beginning in.
01:01:11.800 --> 01:01:16.360
Um, and I want to thank everybody for listening or watching this week's episode of Hey Tabby.
01:01:16.519 --> 01:01:17.639
Be sure to subscribe.
01:01:17.800 --> 01:01:24.360
Please go and like it and comment and like say all the good things on all the podcasts app and all of those good things.
01:01:24.440 --> 01:01:26.920
And we will see you here again next time.
01:01:29.240 --> 01:01:33.000
Thanks for joining me for today's episode of Hey Tabby.
01:01:33.320 --> 01:01:42.119
If you're looking for a resource that I mentioned in the show and you want to check out the show notes, head on over to tabithawestbrook.com forward slash hey tabby.
01:01:42.280 --> 01:01:46.039
That's H-E-Y-C-A-C-I, and you can grab it there.
01:01:46.360 --> 01:01:48.039
Look forward to seeing you next time.