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00:00:03.120Goodgeist.
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00:00:08.320A podcast series on sustainability.
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00:00:12.000Hosted by Damla Eusler and Steve Connor.
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00:00:15.919Brought to you by the DNS Network.
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00:00:23.920Hello, hello everyone.
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00:00:34.240You are listening to Good Guys, the message on sustainability, which is brought to you by the DNS Network, the global network of agencies dedicated to making the world a better place.
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00:00:40.479This is Damla from Reagancy Istanbul and This is Steve from Creative Concern in Manchester.
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00:00:47.920This podcast series explores global sustainability issues, how they're communicating, what creativity can do to make positive change happen.
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00:01:00.000So in this episode, we're going to talk to Noomi DeSantis, who is the co-founder of a super clever company called Junker and the driving force behind DNA Ambient.
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00:01:06.319She's one of the most renowned experts in Italy on waste management and legislation.
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00:01:17.840And according to our Italian colleagues at Silverback, she is the go-to contact for a large network of professionals working on digital management in the waste sector.
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00:01:21.680I have to say, yeah, the guys at Silverback, they were sort of super glowing.
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00:01:24.480And so we'll find out more about Juncker in a moment, won't we?
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00:01:26.159And uh is it Juncker or Juncker?
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00:01:27.359We'll get to that in a minute.
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00:01:36.079And about the company, the app, technological help at the center of a rich ecosystem, data case studies, international clients is amazing.
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00:01:39.439And as if all of that wasn't ambitious enough, Naomi.
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00:01:46.000There's also DNA Ambiente, which is a digital ecosystem looking at environmental management challenges.
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00:01:47.519So it all sounds bloody amazing.
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00:01:51.680Naomi, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to Down and myself.
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00:01:53.040It's me.
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00:01:55.840Well, thank you for having me for this invite.
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00:01:58.000I I appreciate it very much.
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00:02:01.680And I must say, Nicola was too, too generous.
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00:02:05.599No, I don't think so.
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00:02:08.479So one thank you from me too, Naomi.
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00:02:14.639We really want to know our guests better when we talked with them on the good guides.
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00:02:22.159So could you just tell us your path that led you into this amazing company called Junker?
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00:02:23.840Yeah, thank you very much.
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00:02:25.439I have a big pleasure.
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00:02:32.800I have uh a past of um of communication and a PR for companies and agencies.
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00:02:41.599Then I discovered the internet was my wonderful world, and I wanted to be there and to make a project there.
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00:02:44.319So I started founding startups.
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00:02:48.800I am what you could say a serial startup.
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00:03:06.960In fact, now I am an old startupper, and Junker is just my the latest one I founded with my colleagues and friends and family because I founded uh Junker, this project of the clean tech sector with my sister and a couple of colleagues.
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00:03:11.039Uh, so it was very, very familiar project.
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00:03:17.120In fact, I can tell you that it was born on the table kitchen of my sister's house.
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00:03:28.240We gathered there at evening during weekends uh working at this project in the spare time of our previous job, you know.
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00:03:56.080So it was born like that on the table in the kitchen making plans because we noticed that there was a specific niche in the clean tech sector which was not well equipped of tools for ordinary citizens who had to in Italy you are it's compulsive, you have to sort waste in a very, very attentive and granular way.
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00:04:04.719So we thought that in 2015 we lacked a proper tool, information tool, of course, to do that.
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00:04:07.759I think so many.
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00:04:14.000I love the idea of the the table, sat around the table in the kitchen, sort of coming up with clean tech.
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00:04:19.199The kitchen, the family, it is a Mediterranean thing.
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00:04:21.600I completely understand it, Steve.
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00:04:22.000Yeah.
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00:04:24.800Let's fill finish the picture, Nami.
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00:04:28.319Was there some pasta, some bread, some cheese, some moisine?
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00:04:29.759Of course.
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00:04:31.120Of course.
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00:04:46.480We stopped, we took away the computers and we made pasta, we had dinner, we we of course we discussed uh the project while eating, and of course, we had the waste bean very, very near under the sink in the kitchen.
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00:04:48.480So everything was there, you know.
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00:04:49.920Everything was ready.
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00:04:53.040Oh, it's a kitchen workshop, it's amazing.
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00:04:57.040And I think no, no, kitchen workshop.
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00:04:57.759I love it.
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00:05:02.800So, and and I love the idea that you were frustrated, the frustrated, because you were.
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00:05:17.680I know you said that you there was so many missing strategies around the circular economy, and your innovation challenge that you're trying to rise to was to bridge these gaps, create what you called before we came on to this call.
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00:05:25.600You talked about a shared space you created for these different actors who need to sort this problem out, municipalities, waste companies, consentizes.
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00:05:28.399And so tell us about how you created that shared space.
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00:05:40.720Yeah, frustration was a very good thing because we uh created the app that was missing, because we created it for us, thinking as citizens.
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00:05:49.439We were all people from the IT tech world, but we created it from the point of view and the needs of citizens.
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00:06:01.439And we discovered that if you want a good tool, this tool had better chances if it was a shared tool, it was a collaborative platform.
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00:06:04.720It was the very beginning of the platform economy.
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00:06:10.800They were talking about initiative where people could meet and talk and exchange experience.
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00:06:13.040And we did the same.
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00:06:32.399We created an app open to the contribution of other people, and we offered it to the municipalities because in Italy uh municipalities have the duty by law to take care of the waste sorting and to produce good second life materials.
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00:06:38.160It's on top of the municipalities, then they hire the operators, the companies.
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00:06:42.079They do the dirty job, we can say.
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00:06:46.319But the the duty, the it's a must of the municipalities.
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00:06:55.920So we would we created this object and this app and went to the municipalities saying, This is the missing link between you and your citizen and the operator.
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00:06:59.519We can collaborate, giving and exchanging information.
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00:07:21.519Citizens can suggest the problems with, for example, uh collection of uh waste, and you can give the right information, plus, we can give you a tool that recognizes every kind of waste and gives the geolocated rules because Italy is brilliant on many things.
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00:07:26.800One of these things in is making different rules in different municipalities.
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00:07:33.759We have 35 different ways to collect waste in Italy.
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00:07:41.120So, you know, you change municipality, you have to re relearn how to sort waste.
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00:07:43.279So that was the situation.
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00:08:04.079So we went to the municipalities, two of them said, okay, let's try, and they were the first to subscribe to an app, technically, which was very, very unheard of in those times, and it went well because they saw we saw that the system worked.
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00:08:18.240You give a very precise tool a very shared and open to contribution of everything, everybody tool, and you see, people used it.
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00:08:41.840So we understood that in the very strict and full of law and full of different rules of the circular economy and waste management in Italy, the missing, the missing thing, it was not the behavior or the compliance by the citizens, it was a good tool to inform the citizens.
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00:08:59.519When you give them to the citizens, and and if I must say, in a word, Junker uh scans the barcode or takes a photo of a waste of a packaging and tells you how to dispose it, geolocating on the place you are.
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00:09:01.840So people started to use it.
00:09:02.080 -->
00:09:05.039And what was the results in the medium term?
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00:09:18.720That waste collection was better, people did not miss collection in calendar days, and most more most of all, second row materials were cleaner.
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00:09:25.120So that was the missing factor, the good information tool, because people were ready.
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00:09:27.200And I tell you something more.
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00:09:36.080Since we could not recognize by barcode everything at the beginning, we had to classify them.
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00:09:38.879We opened to the contribution of people.
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00:09:58.000We said if you scan a barcode with Junker and Junker does not have in its database this specific packaging, but you of course you have the need to dispose correctly, and you want to dispose correctly, it send us a photo and we will classify it for you.
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00:10:00.080So they sent us photos.
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00:10:17.440You know, now we in our database we have more than two million products packaging, consumer products classified, and half a million of them came from photos people sent us all over Italy.
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00:10:19.120Amazing.
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00:10:23.120That's what I mean when I say collaboration platform, you know.
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00:10:38.080Steve, isn't it interesting that when you take digitalization and working together in the platform with people, but not aim to gather private information and sell it.
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00:10:47.120Instead of that, aim to do something sustainable and good for all the community, you get amazing results.
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00:10:48.000Yeah.
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00:10:49.440I know that's awesome.
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00:10:56.559That was once again the capitalism part of my Danla.
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00:11:03.759We're only a few minutes in save it until later in the podcast before you dismantle extractivist capitalism.
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00:11:06.159So no, I mean that that's amazing.
00:11:06.240 -->
00:11:08.639The results and how you achieved it.
00:11:08.879 -->
00:11:21.759And you generally say when you talk about the circular economy models and how they work, you say there are three pillars of it, and the base is fully engaged citizens.
00:11:22.000 -->
00:11:27.360And the three pillars are digitalization, inclusivity, and nudge.
00:11:27.519 -->
00:11:31.600Can you talk to us a little bit more about the nudge part?
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00:11:32.960Yeah, I love it.
00:11:33.120 -->
00:11:44.879I love to talk about it because you know, we were surprised of this collaboration from all the people and seeing how much they use the app to sort correctly.
00:11:44.960 -->
00:11:49.919So we said, gosh, people were just waiting uh to be compliant.
00:11:50.559 -->
00:11:55.120They want to be part of the circular, they want to make it work.
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00:12:15.360And surprised as we were, there were also the municipalities they could not believe that people were spontaneously uh complying to know just give uh more information, help them, make them easy, and that was this digitalization, of course.
00:12:15.519 -->
00:12:21.039And they and we had many, many, many evidence, evidences on project.
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00:12:24.799One for all, which represents the concept of Nudge.
00:12:24.960 -->
00:12:29.360Nudge is making the right choice, also the easiest one.
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00:12:31.039That's Nudge for us.
00:12:31.279 -->
00:12:35.440And uh, one perfect example was the city of Latina.
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00:12:44.639Latina is a big city in the south of Lazio, maybe 100 kilometers south of Rome, just to geolocate it.
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00:12:50.879Latina was on a very low percentage of waste collection, separate collection.
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00:12:53.600They were about 35%.
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00:13:06.240So the municipalities had a huge pressure to make people sort more and better because the the goal is to get the 65%.
00:13:07.039 -->
00:13:15.120So they have 20 points to go, you know, before hitting the goal, the national goal and the European goal.
00:13:15.360 -->
00:13:20.639So we started with uh we started with a local university uh project.
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00:13:31.279According to the project, they stopped to say if you are wrong, if you do not sort correctly, you have a fine.
00:13:31.519 -->
00:13:47.919But on the opposite, they started putting stickers with smiling or crying faces on the little beans every day that people were putting outside their home the bin for the waste collection.
00:13:48.080 -->
00:14:26.240You know, every morning in Italy you put the right bean outside your door, and the people who collected the operators looked inside the bean before throwing in the in the in the in the truck, and if more or less, judging by the eye, of course, in a in a in the flash of a moment, but if they saw that the collection was good, that the raw materials were, for example, all plastic without impurities or not visible impurities, they put of course a nice smiling green sticker on the little bean.
00:14:26.480 -->
00:14:39.200And imagine a long route, a long street in which all the little beans are outside the the doors, and you can see, you can walk and you see, ah, smiling, huh?
00:14:39.360 -->
00:14:42.000Not smiling, huh, crying, yeah.
00:14:42.320 -->
00:14:47.120And people started uh getting in a competition.
00:14:47.279 -->
00:14:56.320Neighbors, neighbors were looking at their neighbors and saying, Ah, he got the smiling one, I got the yellow one, oh my god.
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00:15:15.600That started a competition, an extreme competition, and you can see how they were engaged by uh engaged to do the right thing, the good sorting, not by a menace, not by uh a fine, but competition with your neighbors.
00:15:15.759 -->
00:15:24.480So, cutting a very long story short, in two years they went from 35% to 7 54%.
00:15:25.440 -->
00:15:28.080So in two years, it was amazing.
00:15:28.399 -->
00:15:30.720So I think we can Noomi, that's amazing.
00:15:30.799 -->
00:15:36.639Oh, well, I do know, because I've been through quite a journey when it comes to nudge and behavior change.
00:15:36.720 -->
00:15:43.200Because we we had uh here in the UK, we had a special government team for nudge.
00:15:43.679 -->
00:15:49.279And at the time I remember I just hated the idea of this government unit doing nudge.
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00:15:52.639And I I at the time, Dan has probably heard me talk about it.
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00:15:58.559I thought everything was about values and what you believe in and what makes you drive you to doing shouldn't be nudge.
00:15:58.720 -->
00:16:00.000I think I'm coming around.
00:16:00.080 -->
00:16:01.360I I I'm back on.
00:16:01.519 -->
00:16:03.519I'm back on with nudge.
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00:16:05.039Thank you very much for that.
00:16:05.120 -->
00:16:05.679It was amazing.
00:16:05.919 -->
00:16:16.000So tell us, maybe, tell us about the numbers then, because you've been launched you launched 12 years ago, came up with the kitchen table, lots of pastor and wine.
00:16:16.399 -->
00:16:17.440What's the impact?
00:16:17.679 -->
00:16:19.360The impact's been pretty incredible, hasn't it?
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00:16:20.720So tell us about the numbers.
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00:16:25.279Yeah, the numbers are very, very we are proud of them.
00:16:25.360 -->
00:16:30.080We are proud of our uh users because the numbers are very interesting.
00:16:30.320 -->
00:16:35.519And I can I already told you that uh in Italy we have 8,000 municipalities.
00:16:35.679 -->
00:16:42.799Can you imagine that 3,500 are subscribers to our app?
00:16:43.519 -->
00:16:55.600So it means that Junker is uh more or less uh at uh in the cities and municipalities of half of the Italian population.
00:16:55.759 -->
00:16:59.36030 million people have Junker as official app.
00:16:59.919 -->
00:17:05.440Of course, our community of frequent users is much lower, of course.
00:17:06.079 -->
00:17:11.200But we have four million users all over Italy.
00:17:11.279 -->
00:17:32.480We are proud to say that from the north to the south we have uh huge communities in big, medium, and small cities, and that's uh important because from the statistics of the uh of the use of the app, we can see what they look more frequently, and we can see from the north to the south which are their doubts.
00:17:32.720 -->
00:17:54.960What are the the waste and packaging uh that pose problem still today, and we can have a feedback on that and offer to the municipal to tell the municipalities to make campaigns specifically on the difficult, on the doubts that people told us by the data of the use of the app.
00:17:55.119 -->
00:18:05.920And about the data, I can tell you that now we are in uh I think next year we will get to 100 million searches in the app.
00:18:06.240 -->
00:18:20.799It means that the 100 millionth time we had we gave the right information to someone who's learning how to choose the right bin for the right waste, which is amazing.
00:18:20.960 -->
00:18:25.440For me, it's amazing for us too.
00:18:26.240 -->
00:18:30.559More than I ever could have imagined.
00:18:31.039 -->
00:18:42.480So now, with both Junker and BNA MBN, you really are at the heart of the international effort to deliver against the huge promise of a circular economy.
00:18:42.640 -->
00:18:48.720So, from your experience, which countries, companies, or sectors are doing well on this?
00:18:48.880 -->
00:18:53.920And just as critically, who has still got a lot of work to do?
00:18:54.480 -->
00:18:55.119Yes, yes.
00:18:56.240 -->
00:18:58.720It's a diff very difficult question.
00:18:58.960 -->
00:19:06.799I can tell you that clearly, it's clear to my eyes that who's doing very, very well is citizens.
00:19:07.039 -->
00:19:17.440I will never stop saying that the the effort to be good, to do the right thing, to be part of the solution is on top of the citizens.
00:19:17.599 -->
00:19:19.359They are my winners always.
00:19:20.480 -->
00:19:21.680Then municipalities.
00:19:21.839 -->
00:19:30.640I say bravo to municipalities, cities, because they in the last 10 years they made huge efforts.
00:19:30.880 -->
00:19:54.079First of all, they started thinking that uh the the citizen doing with sorting was the culprit, and started looking at them like allies, people to to interest, to attract, no to so to conquer, because circular economy works only if people collaborate, cooperate.
00:19:54.319 -->
00:20:24.240And then Europe is doing a great job with regulamentation, direction directions, and a great job, most of all recently for eco design, because people can be very, very, very compliant, but some packaging, some ways are very, very difficult to understand, to separate, to so eco-design that saves on materials that use less materials for a single packaging will do much.
00:20:24.640 -->
00:20:34.000And now is finally it's compulsive to take care of eco design before putting packages on the market.
00:20:34.160 -->
00:20:43.279Now you have to comply to strict rules of eco design and that will produce better second life materials.
00:20:43.599 -->
00:20:44.400Absolutely.
00:20:44.799 -->
00:21:02.400So Europe is okay, operate great operators and companies are working on it, are doing something because they have have numbers, economic numbers, you know.
00:21:02.720 -->
00:21:07.839So they are under a pressure to have good balance of costs and benefits.
00:21:08.000 -->
00:21:18.400So something sometimes they are they are commit I don't know how to say in English, but they are slower, let's say.
00:21:19.279 -->
00:21:20.400Oh, that's hilarious.
00:21:20.559 -->
00:21:26.960No, but we have a phrase in English that many people use, which is called damning with faint praise.
00:21:27.519 -->
00:21:28.640And that's what you just say.
00:21:35.359 -->
00:21:38.000And the operators are doing something.
00:21:39.039 -->
00:21:40.000But it's something.
00:21:40.960 -->
00:21:42.000No, it's not nothing.
00:21:42.160 -->
00:21:42.880It's not nothing.
00:21:43.119 -->
00:21:44.480It's not nothing.
00:21:45.680 -->
00:21:46.480That's extraordinary.
00:21:46.720 -->
00:21:54.559I've got a question, I mean, a slightly additional question, which is I'm really fascinated by the data that you've built.
00:21:55.039 -->
00:22:06.240And I'm sure when you get back around the kitchen table with your sister and you've And another bottle of wine, and you say, look at this amazing data that we have amassed together.
00:22:06.480 -->
00:22:09.920Much of it has been contributed by citizens as well.
00:22:10.000 -->
00:22:14.880So it's this co-designed what can it be used more widely?
00:22:14.960 -->
00:22:17.839Do you think about other use cases for this data?
00:22:17.920 -->
00:22:21.839And what it's really interesting that you built so much in this rich data source.
00:22:22.160 -->
00:22:28.799Or does it lean into the space of eco-design where it can actually inform design choices and products in the future?
00:22:29.200 -->
00:22:36.319We are actually cooperating with uh entities to provide information.
00:22:36.400 -->
00:22:42.799Uh, for example, we know absolutely which are the most difficult packaging for citizens.
00:22:42.880 -->
00:22:45.200As I said, I see the number of uh searches.
00:22:45.519 -->
00:22:48.880For example, textiles are number one.
00:22:51.039 -->
00:23:06.079There are electronic devices, they are very difficult to uh to sort because, for example, you take a lamp, you never know if a lamp goes to mixed waste or goes to electronic device.
00:23:06.400 -->
00:23:12.559No, there are doubts, and there are also new materials like the the so-called TetraPack.
00:23:12.640 -->
00:23:23.119You remember it's a multi-layer, that's the I think the most difficult packaging uh to separate, also for plants, not only for citizens.
00:23:23.359 -->
00:23:50.000And providing this, our data, saying, listen, uh no, in our top 10 classes of most difficult waste, there are ta-ta-ta-ta, it's a huge information, it's a huge advantage for eco-designers because they know what to avoid where they do not have to go because they it's a barrier for people to do it well, to do to separate well.
00:23:50.160 -->
00:23:52.319So that data is very important for us.
00:23:52.480 -->
00:23:56.319And as I said, data makes action possible.
00:23:56.559 -->
00:24:08.720We read the data, and the action is better information, good information, on-topic information, you know, and action is good because action becomes impact.
00:24:09.759 -->
00:24:14.240And impact is loved by municipalities and also by companies.
00:24:14.319 -->
00:24:18.240I'm not saying that the operators are doing huge investments.
00:24:19.119 -->
00:24:25.519That's why also they are going slower, because they have to invest in new plants, in new way of collecting.
00:24:25.839 -->
00:24:27.519Of course, they are slower, no?
00:24:27.759 -->
00:24:28.880I understand that.
00:24:29.200 -->
00:24:36.720But data are important for them to go to less models.
00:24:36.880 -->
00:24:42.319Remember, I told you 34, 25 diff different ways of collecting.
00:24:43.200 -->
00:24:49.680Hopefully, we shall shall reduce them in favor of more efficient models.
00:24:49.839 -->
00:24:54.400That's why data and the data we are gathering are important for them.
00:24:55.599 -->
00:25:00.960Well, I want to go forever with knowing me, but thank you.
00:25:01.599 -->
00:25:02.240I do.
00:25:02.799 -->
00:25:04.079But anyway, sorry, Tammy.
00:25:04.160 -->
00:25:05.039Yeah, I know, I know.
00:25:05.440 -->
00:25:10.240But we are kind of running out of time, so I want to just come to the last question.
00:25:10.480 -->
00:25:21.119Our final question, our network is ironically called do not smile, because we need to make sustainability a subject that brings happiness into the world.
00:25:21.279 -->
00:25:26.400So, what object, place or person always makes you smile?
00:25:28.400 -->
00:25:29.359How wonderful.
00:25:29.680 -->
00:25:54.000The person makes what makes me always, always, always smile and hope is when I go to events and I speak to people when I go to fair and people stop at my stand and they talk to us and discover what we do and discover the app, and they're happy to find something that helps because they want to do something, they want to be part of the solution.
00:25:54.319 -->
00:26:06.000These things for me is the most beautiful hope message, no message of uh goodwill, hope, and uh and that's the best.
00:26:09.519 -->
00:26:16.319I don't I mean, well, do you know I've been on a bit of an emotional journey during this conversation.
00:26:16.799 -->
00:26:20.400I was to say, I'm now open to nudge again.
00:26:20.640 -->
00:26:30.720Um I'm also I'm do you know, and I I know I don't want to bring this down, but I I've reminded of a quote from the book by Brett Easton Ellis.
00:26:30.880 -->
00:26:33.440It's a horrible book, it's called American Psycho.
00:26:34.079 -->
00:26:40.720And in American Psycho, the the the the protagonist who does very bad things, he says, evil.
00:26:40.960 -->
00:26:45.599I know he says, evil isn't who you are, evil is what you do.
00:26:46.000 -->
00:26:57.039And it's about this idea that we human beings aren't innately bad necessarily, we're just not given the opportunity to make the right choices, and that's what you're doing.
00:26:57.200 -->
00:26:59.680You're helping people to make the good choices.
00:27:00.160 -->
00:27:01.039So that's it.
00:27:01.119 -->
00:27:02.400I'm now Team Nudge.
00:27:02.559 -->
00:27:06.799I've gone full circle and I've changed my mind.
00:27:07.119 -->
00:27:11.039I'm where if I I'm I'm gonna move to Italy so I can use the app.
00:27:11.440 -->
00:27:12.880I mean, it's simple as that.
00:27:13.039 -->
00:27:15.519I can't uh I can't live without it.
00:27:15.759 -->
00:27:30.480You can use it in also in in the UK, because uh, even if and the good things, the good news, and I'm closing uh, is that uh it's not important if the municipality uh subscribe.
00:27:30.880 -->
00:27:40.640Of course, if the municipality subscribes as more services in Junker, but Junker is open as a Wikipedia of the waste for everybody everywhere.
00:27:40.799 -->
00:27:44.000We are in 14 languages, so use it.
00:27:44.640 -->
00:27:45.279Oh my goodness.
00:27:46.799 -->
00:27:49.680Take photos, paste them and see what Vinny answers.
00:27:49.920 -->
00:27:56.079I'm gonna s I'm gonna send you your 100 millionth and one query is coming and it's on its way.
00:27:56.319 -->
00:27:57.519Oh, I'm downloading now.
00:27:57.599 -->
00:27:59.359Download people, download.
00:27:59.519 -->
00:28:03.200Oh no me, listen, it's been absolutely amazing to talking to you.
00:28:03.279 -->
00:28:05.119And uh what a great, what a great thing.
00:28:05.200 -->
00:28:05.759What a great person.
00:28:06.000 -->
00:28:06.400Same for me.
00:28:06.559 -->
00:28:06.960Same for me.
00:28:07.200 -->
00:28:07.759Thank you very much.
00:28:08.480 -->
00:28:09.680You better wrap us up.
00:28:10.000 -->
00:28:16.799So thanks to everyone who has listened to our good guys podcast brought to you by the Do Not Smile Network of Agencies.
00:28:17.039 -->
00:28:18.960And make sure you listen to future episodes.
00:28:19.039 -->
00:28:24.079We'll talk to uh more amazing people about how we can all work together to create a more sustainable future.
00:28:24.160 -->
00:28:26.480So, Nomi, Damler, see you soon.
00:28:26.720 -->
00:28:27.519Bye bye.
00:28:29.920 -->
00:28:30.640Goodgeist.
00:28:33.119 -->
00:28:39.599A podcast series on sustainability hosted by Damler Osler and Steve Connor.
00:28:40.400 -->
00:28:43.279Brought to you by the DNS Network.
