Hello and welcome to the podcast. This is Get in the Driver's Seat. We're telling stories about leadership moments in professional practice. I'm your host, Sandra Bekhor, Practice Management Coach at Bekhor Management. So today we're talking about difficult conversations. Don't turn that off. So we're going to face them head on, rather than avoiding or delaying, because the underlying issue probably isn't going away anytime soon. So to tackle this sensitive topic with me, I'm excited to introduce Hannah Lau, an entrepreneur, strategist and marketer. She has built a truly international career, including 15 years spent overseas with the most recent 10 years running her own consulting business as Astera Asia. Hannah is also an international marketing mentor at Accelerator Center and Entrepreneur-in-Residence for the ELLA accelerator at YSpace at York University, which is where we met. Welcome, Hannah.
Thanks for having me.
Um, such a difficult topic, and I'm just so glad to have a partner like you to help me to unpack it for you know, viewers that may be facing something that that maybe they've been facing for a long time, actually, and avoiding it doesn't help, as we know. Okay, so let's start sort of at the beginning. Let's start with identifying some typical types of difficult conversations, because they really don't all land in the same box, even if we're still talking about within the workplace. So what have you Hannah, you know we on this podcast, we like to talk about stories examples. So what have you experienced or coached clients on?
Yeah. Thanks, Sandra. First of all, I just want to say thank you for this topic. I know it's difficult. It's a difficult topic about difficult conversations, but, I, like you, I think this is definitely one of those things we should be talking about more often, because everybody's struggling with them, and nobody really knows what to do, and they erupt into much bigger problems that cost us, you know, in so many other ways, worse than money, in the end, and so, so thank you for this topic. I just want to start off by saying that so my background before I became an entrepreneur, I was in corporate advertising for many years, and I was in the client management space. And so I would say that my first exposure to difficult conversations was in the client and account manager, type of relationship dynamic. And then, of course, you have the you know, manager, the person who's reporting to you, like a junior /senior, type of thing within the organization. And then, of course, vendors uh, conversations with vendors or suppliers or people like that, who are working with your organization where you're the client. So both, you know, serving the client through client management, and also being on the client side with vendors. I think there's a lot of different dynamics happening, and then in the management space as well. So each, each has its own nuances, but, you know, definitely not short of difficult conversations to have, right?
So that's an interesting way of framing it, depending on the relationship that you're managing, could be your colleague, could be your team member. And you know, another way that I guess I look at this is your personality type, management style, and so some of us, we're just built this way. And you know, there's no right or wrong way to be. It's just the self awareness of how you function is important so that you can approach these things in a in a functional way. So for example, if you struggle with people pleasing, just as an example, these difficult conversations may show up where you're worried that somebody won't like what you have to say. And you know, in those cases, okay, I struggle with the people pleaser, transparency here. And you know, what you learn, as you sort of build this muscle and get better and better at the difficult conversation, is that actually having them helps the other person to trust you more.
Yeah, absolutely. And I like what you said about you know, their not being right and wrong and personality. Same with management like that. You know, there's leadership that looks different in different contexts, right? But the key is how do we be aware enough to adapt into different situations? You know, we started this off just now naming a bunch of different types of relationships that can lead to difficult conversations. But, you know, at the highest level, I think that there's really just two kinds of difficult conversations. There's the avoidable and there's the unavoidable. And I think if we were to spend more time getting rid of the avoidable ones by, you know, be more self aware or implementing some other things that I'm happy to talk about in a few minutes. You know, then that saves us time and loss and risk and conflict and, you know, all these things so that we can spend the gained time on the unavoidable, difficult conversations. You know, let's not, you know, see them all as one category. I think there is a range of difficult conversations, and if we can sort of get rid of the ones that are not supposed to be taking up so much space, we can focus on the ones that do.
Nice. That's a really nice way of framing this, and also relates to management style and personality, because some of us are more able to avoid and some of us tip over into very avoidant, right? Yeah, what would you qualify as avoidable? Conversations like, could you just explain? Like, elaborate. What does that mean?
So what I mean by avoidable is not that you should avoid, right? Is that if we're implementing or if we have certain habits in our daily practices as managers, leaders, you know, founders, whatever happens to be, if we are more aware of these things that we can put into place, it might remove the bumps down the road kind of thing, right? So if we're healthy on an ongoing basis, there's less chance that we're going to, you know, run into a problem. And so the first thing you've already said is awareness. A lot of times we run into these difficult conversations because we weren't aware of something that was already happening. Maybe something's already happening for a month or two or three, or whatever it is, but we just weren't aware of our surroundings, and we weren't paying attention to what was happening, especially if you're managing a team more than one person you know, maybe these habits have already been brewing within your team, or these nuances within your team culture, and so if, if we're not aware that those things happening by the time a fire erupts, then it's like whoa. Now we got to have this difficult conversation, but just being noticing and alert of what's going on. I think the other way that we can help mitigate some of these difficult conversations is by recognizing that they are an option upfront, sometimes because of awkwardness, or, like you said, people pleasing, or whatever it happens to be, we think, Okay, let's try every other option before we get to actually having to talk about it. And the downside to that is it probably snowballs. So if you'd started talking, you know, if I had a thing with you, and you know, we talked about it today, it might be, you know, this big of a difficult conversation. But because I'm like, ooh, let me try to send her a subtle message. Let me try to, you know, imply this should happen without saying it out loud, or let's just kick this can down the road. By the time a month passes, it's now, it's humongous, right? And so I think recognizing upfront as a leader, that this is an option we should be exploring and not a last resort, even just a mental awareness of that, I think, I think, is really important. Also as a leader, it's being ready to have them. Some difficult conversations are planned, which is great, you know. Maybe you're doing a performance review and you know you have to give some bad news, or maybe you have to, you know, resolve a conflict in in your team, those are usually more planned. But I think as a leader, we need to have a posture of being ready at any time to have those conversations. Because as you're being alert, timeliness is often key, right that you when you catch something, you can just nip it in the bud right away and by delaying it, that, like I said, causes more problems. And so just that posture as a leader, of thinking, Okay, I know it's awkward. I know nobody wants to do it, but it's part of the gig. It's part of leading a team or working with a client, or whatever happens to be. Just knowing that that is something that may happen just makes you more ready. You know then it's less shocking for yourself. Those are some ways that, I guess, would help prevent this from becoming a big boulder down the road.
Yeah, you know what you're reminding me of. One of the things I like to do is create a conflict, practicing system, or, you know, a way, of practicing conflict as a regular thing, you know, for clients. And so what that means is just instead of treating conflict as a bad thing, let's avoid it. Let's invite conflict into our everyday, you know, activities. So if you have like, a regular team meeting to say at the end of the meeting, Hey, how did that go for everyone? Let's pick one thing that went well, one thing that didn't, that we could have done better. So you get used to doing it. And then when you have something really difficult to say, you know, you find the words,
Yes, yeah, yeah. You just get used to it, right? I mean, it's sometimes a little bit like, you know, like, oh, I don't like going to dinner parties, for example, because, you know, I don't know how to talk to people, but, like you were saying earlier, it's a muscle. And so if you do it often enough times, you might not love it, still. I don't think anybody loves conflict. But it becomes less of a hurdle to get over and to talk about it.
Yeah. And you have more confidence. Absolutely. Okay, so good segue into getting a little bit more proactive. Okay, so let's, let's look at slicing and dicing these difficult conversations a bit differently. So sometimes they're planned, so we know we're going into this meeting. Maybe it's a performance management maybe we're really upset about something. Sometimes we're the ones that are sort of railroaded, and we were not expecting. We didn't even think we did anything wrong, and somebody's really upset, and they corner us. So we can be the initiator. We can be the receiver. So it's a mixed bag. So how do we get more proactive, generally, for these difficult conversations.
I don't think there's a silver bullet. I think that's why this is important, that we're having this conversation, because there are so many nuances, especially when you're on the receiving end of it. But let's start with, you know, sort of the ones that we're delivering right? I think one of the things that I've learned over time is the importance of having a stance. Oftentimes difficult conversations get more difficult than they should be because they get emotional or personal. And so if I'm telling you that I didn't like what you did in your recent project or whatever. Let's say, you know, I'm your manager, and if it all sounds very like, oh, Hannah's having a bad day, or Hannah doesn't like this, and, you know, if it just sounds very personal, then you're going to receive it, you know, in that way. But having a stance would mean that this is not a matter of my opinion. It's okay, you know, let's say the client expected this and you delivered this instead. So the objectivity of it needs to come through, and people can, most people can reasonably accept, you know, constructive criticism or feedback on something being less than. What's hard to accept is when it feels like an attack on, you know, Sandra, you're just not a good worker, like, what? That's right? And so having a stance means that it's not Hannah's opinion. Is that we want to do what's best for the client, or we want to deliver a good project, you know, tonality, you know, just the way it's even being communicated. So much of this is a communications exercise, all those of us that are in marketing, right? And so just the power of communication. You know, so much of what we communicate is not in what's said. It's our body language, it's our tone, it's all these other things. And so even when we deliver that, it's important to just be very conscious of yes, you might be unhappy about this thing, but how is this person going to receive it? One thing I'm always reminded of is, am I saying what this person needs to hear or what I want to say? That's a significant difference. I might want to just, you know, keep going. But is that what you need in that moment? Like, let's exhibit a bit of empathy but also, you know, wisdom in how we communicate and say, Okay, in this moment, what Sandra needs is to know what areas of the project wants so she can go and fix it, which is totally fine, you know. Now if I'm disappointed in her in other ways, you know, I need to go take a take a deep breath, you know, get a coffee or something and calm down before I do that, and just say what she needs to hear. And not just because I want to go off on a tangent and a rampage.
Hannah, this is really fun. Not so if you're going into a hard conversation. But to talk about, it's fun. So can we take that and actually do a role play right now? So let's say you have something to say to me, and you've been holding it back, and now you have to, like, calm down all those frustrated feelings and find the right way to say it. Let's role play for our listeners a little.
Sure. I mean, the first place I would start is I would just ask. I say, hey, Sandra, you know this project you've been working on, tell me how you've been going about it. I always start with the person, just giving them a chance to kind of say their piece. And it's a bit of self restraint, especially if I'm in a mood, you know, from like, reading the report that you wrote, and I'm like, god, this is completely off, you know, but giving you a chance first so you don't feel like I'm just coming in and, you know, punching you in the face.
Love the questions.
So Sandra, just take me through what your process was when you were doing this project. You know, has there been hiccups? And also giving you a chance to share with me, maybe things I didn't know, right? Maybe something happened, or somebody else tossed in on this project. And you know, that influenced your work, and I didn't know about it. I'm not sitting there all day watching you do it. And so it also gives you a chance to share with me before I offload on you. And then you're not going to be defensive about it, right? This is not you responding. I'm giving you a chance to speak first. So, Sandra, okay, so you're working on Project A, How have things been going? Tell me what your process was, just so I can understand where you're coming from. Did you do ABC, you know, DEF, whatever, whatever, as you were going about it. And then you would respond, and hopefully in a very non-defensive way, just kind of give me the lay of the land. That's, how it would start.
Or you might, get an answer from me that shows you that I knew there was an issue. Like, it could be that I'm like, oh, you know, Hannah, I know why you're asking me that question, because it really wasn't my best work. And, you know, honestly, I had a time crunch. I had to leave early, you know, whatever, I had a problem with, you know, my family, it was a personal emergency. And maybe you didn't know that, but I have the awareness that it wasn't good work.
So then now we've diffused potentially an explosion. Whereas if I came in at, you know, at a 10 and just started cutting this project apart, then you will be like, What? What about this? And, now we’re four hours in later. You know, we're screaming at each other, right? But if your response was what it was, it may be that we just saved ourselves two hours of talking, right, which is great, and then we focus on resolving it, right? Like if I said, Oh, I actually didn't know that. But Okay, then let's objectively talk about the parts of the project that need to be improved upon, because we both agree this is not okay, right? We both agree this needs to be better. We can't send it to the client yet, and then we're working together on a solution, and it's not me versus you versus this pointing back and forth type of thing.
Yeah. And, you know, I work with professional service firms, and I would say that across the board, all sectors, different levels of management. I think the one thing I'm seeing that people struggle with managers, struggle with more than anything, is giving feedback. That's really what you're talking about here. So giving feedback in a way that is direct and that gives the other person a chance to grow, to understand where the gaps are. Managers hold back and including different personality types. It's not like one personality type holds back. It's really a very common thing.
Yeah, yeah. So to your point, like, just now, you said, if you sensed that I was already, you know, dissatisfied with the quality of project, you knew it wasn't your best work, you just confessed it on the spot. So that that's one way it could have played out. But the other way it could have played out is if you were just like, well, I did this, and you're just unaware. So if that's the case, then going back to my point about having a stance, I need to then point out the areas of the project objectively, that were not good enough, and not in a because I'm having a bad day way, but that this doesn't meet the mark according to a certain standard. This is not how we deliver things to clients. This is not how we, you know, whatever, whatever. And in that way, then you can actually fix something. You don't have to weed through a lot of emotion, a lot of anger, a lot of personal attack just to fix. Now that's not to say that I have to be a robot and I have to put aside my feelings entirely. I think there is a time and place to know how that impacts me, but in a mature and controlled way that, after talking about the project and say, Look, Sandra, I really value as a team member, but I just want you to know that, you know, if we can improve on this in the future, because this does impact the team, it impacts the work that we do. It impacts our reputation with a client. And you know, so that you understand that your work does matter, both good and bad, right? Like, when things go well, we all win. But if, you're not going to be aware of these things, this does hurt us. And so it's not to guilt you, but it's to paint you the whole picture on the tactical like, let's fix the stuff. But also, you know, emotionally, I don't want managers to listen to this and feel like, well, then I have to be a robot, and I always have to put my feelings aside, I think, in a mature way of sharing those feelings that is helpful for you to know that your manager feels this way, right? But in no way is this like screaming at you.
Yeah, right. And I think that what you're saying is a way to get through the difficult conversation is to find alignment. So with the person that you have to, you know, have this conversation with, to find the thing that you're going to partner on, whether it's the common purpose or your values. You both believe, you know, we don't want to put bad work out there, or, you know, we're in agreement about what this work is going to achieve for us. It's actually important, and, you know, and that's from a higher place like it's uplifting, as opposed to conflict, as we're disagreeing, and I'm going to say something you're not going to like.
You're right. Because if we keep it at the personal level, then suddenly it's a race to the bottom. Is what it is. If I can, I'd like to flip this to sort of a client management situation, because I guess in professional services that’s where a lot of difficult conversations come up as well. You know, I'm not saying this is something everyone will want to do. I know I certainly don't want to do it, but it has worked out well. And I think there is some psychological backing to this as well. When a client is upset, how do you take it, right? When you sit on the receiving end of things? So in my many years of client management, probably the most common is disagreeing over timelines, right? Suddenly a timeline will change, and you now have to deliver something a week earlier than originally it would have been, or budgets cut, or something like that. Usually those are the two things right, time and budget, right? And so most of the time, your client coming to you is going to be upset. Again I would then, you know, just flip what I was saying earlier on that, you know, hoping that I can then embody myself as receiving it, instead of giving it. Letting that person just share their emotions, but not taking it personally. You know, I have been shouted at many times in a client situation, and early on in my career as a very young account manager, I could tell you, you know, it wound up in tears because I felt very personally attacked, and that's not okay, right? I'm not saying it's okay for your client to yell at you, but there's also sort of rising above it and knowing how to navigate those situations, right? Because I can't control that person's behavior, but I can't quit my career every time someone gets upset at me, you know. So I think there's one just expecting that people have emotions and they may not be great at sharing them, right? And then, okay, if they're going to explode, Fine, let that get out first, because you can't work on solving something for your client until they feel like they've offloaded in that way, right? And again, not saying it's okay, but if it needs to happen, letting that out. And then after that, it's just remembering it's not an all or nothing game. The thing with difficult solutions is, what can we give and what can we take? You know, it's about that kind of compromise. I don't mean compromise in a bad way. I mean just in a helpful way. So when a client says, Okay, we're cutting budget, then it's not like, well, then we're not doing this job unless it really is that, you know, it's okay. What can we reduce? What can like, how can we make this better for you? If time is short, okay, what can we deliver that's a draft, let's say, Right? Or so you still have something like, it's like you said, it's elevating the conversation, so you're solving to something greater. It's not about I need to win and you need to lose, or whatever it's let's just get through this. Like we all just need to go get a glass of wine, you know? So how do we get to the end of this so we can go do that, right? And so I think a lot of times with these client conversations, they come unexpected, because someone's just going to call you and say, Hey, our budget's cut in half. Okay, what does that mean? Let's, calmly think about this. Can we reduce scope? Can we phase it out? Can we do it over time? What is it right? Like, there's so many combinations and permutations we can explore. This is what I have found to be really helpful in client management, because these things are going to happen, right? And, you know, losing a client over this could be quite detrimental to the business as well. And so we don't want that.
And, I love that you're starting with allow it. Because if somebody feels that they have permission to speak, you know, even if they're not even being really hot headed about it. It still can be hard to hear it right, because, you know, for some of us really proud of our work or perfectionist or, like, scared of consequences, and we still may want to shut it down, even if the client's being polite. And so this advice to allow it. Just listen. Don't defend yourself. Just listen. Even if you're right, just listen. And that alone solves problems. It may not be solving the whole thing, but letting them speak is the beginning of solving the problems.
Oh, it's very disarming, actually. Believe it or not, if a client’s screaming at you, and even if they think they're right, which they usually do. And that's fine. And even if you can prove that you are right, if you don't do it in that moment, you wait till they've just said their piece, then you take a step back. A running start will save a multitude of problems. Take a running start and say, let's just review the project from the beginning. Okay? And then through that review, you can then say, well, here's where we've checked in, here's what we've done, here's what, you know, that kind of thing. And then, well, you know, we didn't hear back from you for a month, actually, and that's why this thing's been delayed. Okay, now you're bringing in facts in a calm and collective manner, and not as a because you said this, and I'm saying this, you know. I mean, unfortunately in client management, we have to be the bigger person, like we just have to. And so it's about getting to the point of conversation where it's not fighting fire with fire. It's okay. People need to feel things and say things. Okay. Now let's solve the problem.
Yeah, and you know that calm energy you're actually exuding it now, even as you're explaining this, and that calm energy is catchy, right? And we're talking about difficult conversations, people can bring their emotions to it, and it can get very heated. But if somebody starts and they take you by surprise and the client is upset about something, even if they're being polite, that can still be emotional, and it can be very upsetting. And if you react to that, if you bring your own emotions and response, it just escalates and escalates and escalates, right? But if in response to their hot emotion, you listen, you tell them, This is what I've heard, you know, and you have a calm response. Let me bring you up to speed on our end of it, and we'll work on a solution. We have your back. We understand what you're looking for. They're going to calm down. They're going to catch your calm feelings.
Yep, Yep, absolutely. To give a more specific example, or examples, rather, this has happened so many times where a client will call us up, and we're on retainer in many cases, right? And so they can call us up kind of whenever they want, and give us a brief over text message and do all these things. And okay, and it might not be that we've done anything wrong, but they just come in with a request that's very last minute, not unheard of, right? You know? And so while we want to help, there's often unrealistic expectation as to how much we can do in the next let's say three hours, right? Or whatever it is, or if we don't sleep, or whatever happens to be. And I think in that moment to remind them, and I actually do say this, let's say they need a presentation done, because the last minute they have to present to the CEO at nine in the morning or eight in the morning or something like that, right? And it's now already the day before, and so I will actually say what is the bare minimum you need us to do to make you look good, right? As an agency, or whatever it is you're doing, if you can make your client look good, you win. That's it. So, yes, you asked for a 50 page presentation, which unfortunately, I'm guessing I cannot do before, you know, it's like the next morning. Okay, so what? What do you need to get through this, you know? And then it becomes a solving of what is and not a well, they ask for this, and I'm saying no, and you know. And then it becomes this crazy, you know, and they're inflexible, and you're on retainer, and it, whoa, okay, that escalated really quickly, right? Whereas, okay, I understand you want 50 slides. Do you? Can you present all 50 slides in 15 minutes to the CEO? Let's talk about what are the bare minimum like, what is the 10 slides you need that are going to make you look really great? How can I help you reshape the story so you can tell 50 slides in 10 and knock it out of the park? Let's do that.
What's so great about what you just said, Hannah, is, instead of getting, all you know, caught up in the story of, oh, I can't do this. I can't do this, and why are they asking me? And do they feel like they own me? Instead of getting caught up in that storyline, instead what you're doing is you're telling the client, I understand what's most important to you. What's most important to you is that you go into this meeting tomorrow and you feel confident, and you feel like you have what you need for your client. Okay, let's talk about that.
Yes. And then it becomes solving things together, and you're standing on the same side, you know. I think, difficult conversations, whether it's with your, you know, team member, or whether it's with your client or vendor, or whatever it is, and it's any relationships, conflict resolution, really, it's that we're on the same side. Then it's not me versus you, and you did this and counting, you know, tit for tat and all that kind of stuff.
Okay, so, we know that these are nice strategies, but there will be obstacles, and let's talk about some of the typical ones. You know, what have you seen happen? Even if you have a good strategy to overcoming these, you have some awareness of what's going on, you're still going to run into obstacles. And how do you navigate those so that at the end of the day you feel like, okay, I met my goals for this, you know, difficult conversation.
Yeah, so let's take the example of, you know, you're prepared, you've come at it objectively even, and the person just doesn't receive it well. Whether it's a client or whether it's your, you know, staff member, what happens to be and they just don't take it well. And I think before you even go into a sort of imagining, like, worst case scenario. How do we then handle this? Like, let's just play out the worst case, right? So if I'm preparing for a conversation with you, and instead of saying, Well, I had to leave early, I knew this wasn't my best work. If you exploded, you know, and you are just like what? Or some people just don't take warnings from HR for their behavior very well, and, you know, end up causing a huge you know… There's all these scenarios, right? If you know that, that's one of the possibilities that helps you emotionally prepare for it, at least, then you're not sitting back in shock, but then also knowing that you have achieved your goal in this right? So look, the client might still be upset, but I have now made a point about where our boundaries are. We're not going to work at 2am to do your 50 page slide deck. I offered this. I offered that. And this is also part of the alertness and awareness of logging, and I don't mean logging so that you can use it as, like, evidence in court and like, you know, kind of like, tell your client, like, Oh, you did this and you did that. But it's actually really important in professional services to be able to paper trail or track all the things that have happened, because if things do get messy, then you can go back to that, right? And to protect yourself as professional service companies, right? We do need to think about that as well. So even if it goes badly, which it sometimes does, at least, you know, the steps you've taken to be proactive, but also to be prudent in noting the facts, giving time, having the right responses, like all that kind of stuff. I've had situations where I have had to, you know, actually pull all of that out, because my client's boss was like, Hey, this is, you know, I've been hearing a lot of bad things, but I don't think you guys are doing a bad job. Can you tell me what's really going on? And instead of Hannah telling a super long story, I was able to just say, look, on this day we sent this, we didn't hear for three weeks. And then on this day, we sent reminders. We sent, you know. And so this thing is delayed now, not because I was snoozing, but because we have not heard from anybody for months now, and now we're being blamed for the deadline being missed, you know. And so I'm not being a historian so that I can go pick at other people's stuff, but it's really to protect the team. And I think as team leaders and professional services, we owe it to our team to have all that stuff in place, because our team members are going to need us, especially those who report to you, to, you know, stand as united front, to protect the company on that side.
It's the fact story line.
Yeah.
And I think you're raising a good point that one of the biggest obstacles is you don't know how the other person is going to react. Sure, yeah. So you know, being honest with yourself about your intention. How do you want to carry yourself in this meeting? You started this conversation Hannah with the word stance, and I think we're going back to that. It's like, okay, so be honest with yourself, what is your intention towards this other person for your own goals and without needing to control the way they react? Yeah, if it doesn't go your way, will you be happy with having actually shown up with your true intention?
Yeah. I mean, I can give an example. You know, I was coaching somebody, head of an organization, and they had somebody on their team who was overly kind hearted, let's put it that way. And so whenever the client asked for one thing, they were so out of the goodness of their heart, they were just like, oh, I'll just do more. Oh, I'll help you with this. I'll help you, you know. And so the leader that I was coaching, she was telling me all that. She's like, how do I, you know? Like, this is it's getting out of control, because now we're giving away services for free, really. But this person is not malicious in doing it. They're just, so, you know, giving and, you know, kind. And so they're just always offering to help, and they see it as I'm helping. And they were, they were a junior member of the team, and so they hadn't been doing this long enough where they realized, like, we go by the hour, you know, it's like you're doing that right? And so the way I coached this person, and I said, you know, you got to have a conversation with, you know? And first of all, it starts with acknowledging that the goodness of the heart is not a bad thing. We're not here to squash that. We're not here to say, well, you should be a shark, and, you know, you shouldn't be nice to people and whatever, but to acknowledge, first of all, you know who they are and what we appreciate about them, because it makes them a great team member, actually, right? They're, always very helpful with their teammates, but understanding in the context of this business, right? We need to be more prudent in how we, you know, behave towards clients, versus internal teams, versus, you know, that kind of thing and we're going to lose our shirts on this if your time is, you know, constantly given away for free. And she was concerned, because she thought, what if they don't take it well, you know, like, what if they just feel like I'm attacking them for being nice and, you know, judging them and all these things which could possibly happen? And I said, Well, they're in a professional service company, and so if, like I said, you're going to start with not judging their character and slamming them down, you're going to affirm who they are, which is a beautiful thing, but just giving an adjustment to it. And if they take that the wrong way, if they take it as like, Oh, she's, you know, you know, all these things, then maybe they're not the right fit for the team. So in in the conversation she and I had before she talked to that person, we pretty much already went all the way down the rabbit hole and just said, Okay, if this person ends up leaving, it's sad, because they're a great member of the team, but then they're not really fit to be in a professional service company if they can't, you know, have that awareness that their time is being billed for. And so in that way, we already played it out. And so, she wasn't so nervous. She wasn't, you know, so like, ah, what if, you know? And it turns out the person took it really well, actually. So that was great, you know, but it doesn't always happen that way. But the person was like, oh, yeah, I know you're right. And you know, it did sting a little bit, because it was about, you know, their personality, but it wasn't a judgment. It wasn't condemning of that person and who they were. But it doesn't always work out, and I think it's important to objectively have that stance on if it doesn't work out, it doesn't mean that you're a bad person, especially in HR conversations, it's that person is not fit to be in professional services if they just want to, you know, be kind and help, and their time is unlimited in that way, right? And so just kind of playing out both possible outcomes, I think sometimes just helps make it less tense.
Yeah, I agree with you. That's such a great story. By the way, Hannah. In describing the worst case scenario that could possibly play out as one of your obstacles, this person could react this way, and to be okay with that, before you have the conversation. There's a letting go, like, I don't need to control the exact outcomes of this particular conversation. When you learn that you don't need to control them, what you really need to control is how you handle your end of the conversation, your intention, and following through with your intention. And if that person doesn't you know partner with you. That's their right. If you're okay with letting go of that, you walk into that conversation with more ease.
Yeah, absolutely. And they can feel that too. I mean, they may not be able to articulate it, but the other person will feel when you walk in with just less of a you have to respond in this way.
That controlling you're going to do what I say.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And, you know, I just want to sort of take a different angle on the same thing. So this idea of the typical obstacles what I like to do is sort of anticipate what can possibly come up, or maybe what has come up in the past, and come up with systems to, like you said earlier, avoid. And so can you come up with policies, or, you know, conversations where you onboard either staff or you onboard your clients, where you're very clear and you don't apologize for, these are hours of operations, or this is who's going to handle this part of your our work, as opposed to, you're always going to work with me, so that you manage their expectations right up front. And then when the client comes back and has an issue, very calmly, you can remind them. Do you remember when we had that conversation about… You don't just send them an email with, oh, yeah, here's our you know, here's our policy. They're not going to read that. You need to take them through it, yeah, calmly, kindly and help them understand. And then remind them again, calmly and help them understand.
Yeah, absolutely, you know. So going back to, you know, avoidable and unavoidable, you know, difficult conversations, right? Some of these avoidable conversations is using communications and other forms to help build those parameters. So it's sort of like, you know, if you don't have a fence around your backyard, then you're constantly out there just fending off every dog who wants to do his business in your backyard. You build a fence that helps keep out the majority of the dogs who want to do their business in the backyard, and now you only have to fend off the ones who are crazy enough to jump the fence, right? And then you can save your energy for that. And that's a weird analogy. I kind of came up with it on the spot. There you go. But that's what really those policies and parameters are, and they're there to protect your team as well. And I'm just really conscious of the role of the leader to have these things in place, these really strong communication parameters to protect your team. Because oftentimes, if there are more junior people on your team, they don't have the same clout and experience as you do to navigate things with clients. And so especially, I know in the early days of my career, I was watching my boss, like, just say one thing, and the client would totally just like, back off. I'm like, How do you do that? Oh, my goodness, you know. And here I am just like, scrambling around, right? And I really appreciated when there were things that I could lean on, like policies, guidelines, terms, conditions, parameters, things like that, where I don't have to be the bad guy and keep telling my client, like, oh, I don't want to do this for you, which, of course, is not right, but it's that, you know, actually, like you said, like, well, you know, we don't do things overnight or, you know, there's an express fee, or there is, you know, there's a minimum turnaround time, or there's a whatever it is, right? And then that way we, you know, your teammates, can lean on those things. That's a huge help, and it, you know, reduces conflict. So, yeah, I would say, definitely putting those things in place turns, you know, difficult conversations into avoidable ones, right? Because you're it doesn't even happen anymore, because you can lean on that policy for sure.
And I think this is a good segue into where possibly the difficult conversation happens because your personal values, you know have been injured, or you know they're at risk. And can you think of any examples of those kinds of scenarios, Hannah?
Well, actually, just that one that was talking about this person being super kind. It was, I actually knew who that other person was as well. And so I, you know, the staff member that was, you know, that was being too kind and therefore not billing his hours. And it was based on values. Like that person really believed that, you know, they wanted to be helpful in that moment. And, you know, but it wasn't even just clients. They were also, you know, helping vendors. They were just overly helpful. And it just, it was a boundaries issue, right? And so that person's values, I just think, weren't suitable to be in this professional service industry, because that made them feel like they couldn't, you know, it was a job fit thing, and once they were aware of it, they improved. But I think over time, it also is a test of, you know, sort of team culture, corporate culture, like, what is the right fit for someone to be in, the types of roles that we need them to be in. We want people to be doing what they're made to do, right? And so if there's, if there's that kind of conflict between a person's values and, you know, business agenda and all these things. Sometimes they're adaptable, I would say, but other times, maybe it's just a fit thing, and that's okay, you know. But the sooner we raise that, the sooner this person can move on to a vocation or job that's, you know, much more suited for them, you know. And so I think there's also value in the timeliness of these conversations, because we want people to be doing their best in a context that brings out their best, right?
Yeah, you know, I've done a few of these podcasts on company culture, and that, it always comes back to values, shared values, shared values with clients, share values with complimentary professionals, where you help each other to grow and share values with your team, and that is sort of the easiest way to succeed, and to do it in a way that feels like a fun, joyful ride, you know, just as opposed to drudgery?
Yeah, no, and I'm glad you brought that up, because values at the company level can unite people, right? Can bring people together under, you know, a common agenda, right? Which is great, but oftentimes, when it becomes, let's say, the founders’ values versus the team members’ own personal values, then it becomes a personal thing, and it's not under any kind of common ground. You know, I've seen certain founders that I've tried to coach in this area, and you know, they would say, Well, I've been telling my team members to not do this, because it actually cost us a lot when they do that wrong. So, like, they should be following a certain process when they're doing something right, but these team members do not follow the process. And so she's like, been telling them over and over again, there's a procedure and all these things and and she kind of brought this up more than once, and I so I dug into it a little bit, and I said, So pretend I'm that person, like, how have you been communicating? I want to know how you've been saying that. I know that you've been saying it, but I want to know how you've been saying it, right? And she said, you know, this, this, when you don't do it like this, you know, it actually cost the company a whole bunch of money. And, you know, cost us debt. And you know, we're already in debt, and we have overwhelming debt, you know, all these things. And so she just kind of gave me the demonstration of what she would normally say. And I said to her, I'm not sure your employees care that you're in debt, actually. So I'm not saying that they should therefore continue wasting company resources. My point is that you're sensitive about debt because you're the founder of this organization and that's valid, right? But that's not a motivating, you know, factor for your staff to right now. If it's for the good of the business and it's so that everybody can grow and now we've got something more than just your agenda, it can't come across as well, because I think this is, you know, even though you're the founder of the organization, like you know, and so going back to what I was saying about saying what the other person needs to hear and not what you want to say. So in this case, she just wanted to be upset about the fact that you wasting money causes us more debt, which is totally true, but I don't think they care, you know.
So twist that around a little. Hannah, so how would you say it, in a way that they would care?
Well, overall, that it's their job to ensure this process is done. Well, that's their job, and that's what they're measured. The performance is measured against that. So if this process, whatever it is, you know, you're building widgets, if the widgets cost more than they should, or the widgets break down, or the widget, whatever it is that you're doing, is not done to the quality that they should so that we can sell them to customers, everyone gets impacted. Your performance is under review, right? You have criteria for pay raise, or for a promotion, or for whatever it is, you know, like, and the company also needs to keep making money so that we can pay you like, it's the, it's the higher agenda up here, and not because I'm the founder and I'm swimming in debt that now I need to make it your problem, because I don't think you care, and so it's not that they, I don't think they would want more debt, but it's just not a motivating point, and so it needs to be angled towards an agenda that matters to them.
Yeah, and I totally agree with you. I think that the way to make a difficult conversation an easy conversation is to reframe it completely and say, Okay, I'm going to go in there and talk about the thing the other person cares about. And just as an example, you were talking before about giving somebody feedback, you know, let's say your team member. So if, instead of telling them that you're not happy with the work that they did, if instead you go in with something like, listen, I know that you're looking to rise rapidly in this business. I know you're ambitious. I got your back. I want to help you. It's my job to help you go as fast as you can. Yes, and one of the steps you're going to have to overcome is getting good at proofreading or getting good at doing these reports faster, you're not there yet. That's normal at this stage. So let's talk about the steps for you to get better at this in a way that aligns with your career goals.
Yeah, absolutely. And even what you just said like that, there's the tonality thing. So going back to the tone of how you communicate it, along with what you said, right? So when you're talking to your staff about them wasting money, not doing the process, it can sound defensive like, well, you're wasting money, and you don't care about this, and it becomes this very scoldy, defensive type of thing. But if we take it to this level of the company's overall health that therefore, you know, impacts your overall job health and your growth and your whatever, okay, now it's not naggy, you know. Nobody needs nagging in the workplace like that, that's just not a thing, you know, and so objectivity, but also framing it in a way that is about the team and about that agenda and not about because you're upset about this one thing.
Yeah, I totally agree with you, and I love this conversation. Okay, so is there anything you want to say, just as a sort of parting words for anyone who's listening to this and wants to build that muscle? What do you suggest to them to just, you know, day by day, get a little bit better at difficult conversations?
Yeah, I would. I always think it's a mental shift before it's a physical shift. So going back to what I said earlier, about reminding yourself that this is an option, it's not the last resort, and so if you realize it's an option up front, then you're going to lower the bar of the barrier of entry, on when you should be using a difficult conversation, you're not going to wait till a month later. You know, if you see something that's like, oh, you know, Sandra is kind of doing that, not quite right? I can foresee that if she keeps doing it like that, bad things are going to happen. Well, let's just see if bad things happen, potentially, right? Like, that's kind of how we kick the can down the road. But if I'm, like, maybe I should just go remind her, you know, in a friendly way, you know, like, hey, you know, like, How's it going with that? Like, is it going okay? You're, you know, you're checking all these things or whatever. And it may be that even in this two second conversation, I've now reminded you to go check that thing that now won't explode later on. And then, okay, so now we've just totally diffused something that could have exploded later on, right? And so the fact that, in my mind, I'm thinking, Okay, this is an option upfront, just being ready. I think that readiness and alertness, because there's so much context around difficult conversations. You can't just helicopter in. And I can tell you, one of the worst things a manager can do is to see a conflict, not know the before and after and the you know, all the details, and just come in and start trying to, you know, you know, solve it, but not really solve it, because, you know, it's just sort of trying to throw a blanket on the fire right that actually it hurts the team, right? Because then people don't feel heard, people don't feel seen, and you know that you're just going to come in without knowing all the facts, kind of thing. So being aware and alert and understanding the context of things will put you ahead of the game to even be ready to have those and that's the first step, I would say, of exercising that muscle. And it'll get easier as you go.
So I heard a lot of wisdom in what you just said, and a couple of, a couple of things that I heard just now from you is, instead of getting better at the difficult conversation, get better at the mini difficult conversation regularly, mini difficult conversations, and show up as somebody who wants to be helpful.
Yeah, yep. Absolutely love it.
Thank you, Hannah, thank you so much for this conversation.
This was not difficult at all.
That's awesome.
And to our listeners. If you are interested in learning more about Hannah Lau, please go to Astera.Asia. You've been listening to Get in the Driver's Seat, stories about leadership moments in professional practice. I'm your host. Sandra Bekhor, Practice Management Coach at Bekhor Management. Take care everybody.
Thanks for having me.
Um, such a difficult topic, and I'm just so glad to have a partner like you to help me to unpack it for you know, viewers that may be facing something that that maybe they've been facing for a long time, actually, and avoiding it doesn't help, as we know. Okay, so let's start sort of at the beginning. Let's start with identifying some typical types of difficult conversations, because they really don't all land in the same box, even if we're still talking about within the workplace. So what have you Hannah, you know we on this podcast, we like to talk about stories examples. So what have you experienced or coached clients on?
Yeah. Thanks, Sandra. First of all, I just want to say thank you for this topic. I know it's difficult. It's a difficult topic about difficult conversations, but, I, like you, I think this is definitely one of those things we should be talking about more often, because everybody's struggling with them, and nobody really knows what to do, and they erupt into much bigger problems that cost us, you know, in so many other ways, worse than money, in the end, and so, so thank you for this topic. I just want to start off by saying that so my background before I became an entrepreneur, I was in corporate advertising for many years, and I was in the client management space. And so I would say that my first exposure to difficult conversations was in the client and account manager, type of relationship dynamic. And then, of course, you have the you know, manager, the person who's reporting to you, like a junior /senior, type of thing within the organization. And then, of course, vendors uh, conversations with vendors or suppliers or people like that, who are working with your organization where you're the client. So both, you know, serving the client through client management, and also being on the client side with vendors. I think there's a lot of different dynamics happening, and then in the management space as well. So each, each has its own nuances, but, you know, definitely not short of difficult conversations to have, right?
So that's an interesting way of framing it, depending on the relationship that you're managing, could be your colleague, could be your team member. And you know, another way that I guess I look at this is your personality type, management style, and so some of us, we're just built this way. And you know, there's no right or wrong way to be. It's just the self awareness of how you function is important so that you can approach these things in a in a functional way. So for example, if you struggle with people pleasing, just as an example, these difficult conversations may show up where you're worried that somebody won't like what you have to say. And you know, in those cases, okay, I struggle with the people pleaser, transparency here. And you know, what you learn, as you sort of build this muscle and get better and better at the difficult conversation, is that actually having them helps the other person to trust you more.
Yeah, absolutely. And I like what you said about you know, their not being right and wrong and personality. Same with management like that. You know, there's leadership that looks different in different contexts, right? But the key is how do we be aware enough to adapt into different situations? You know, we started this off just now naming a bunch of different types of relationships that can lead to difficult conversations. But, you know, at the highest level, I think that there's really just two kinds of difficult conversations. There's the avoidable and there's the unavoidable. And I think if we were to spend more time getting rid of the avoidable ones by, you know, be more self aware or implementing some other things that I'm happy to talk about in a few minutes. You know, then that saves us time and loss and risk and conflict and, you know, all these things so that we can spend the gained time on the unavoidable, difficult conversations. You know, let's not, you know, see them all as one category. I think there is a range of difficult conversations, and if we can sort of get rid of the ones that are not supposed to be taking up so much space, we can focus on the ones that do.
Nice. That's a really nice way of framing this, and also relates to management style and personality, because some of us are more able to avoid and some of us tip over into very avoidant, right? Yeah, what would you qualify as avoidable? Conversations like, could you just explain? Like, elaborate. What does that mean?
So what I mean by avoidable is not that you should avoid, right? Is that if we're implementing or if we have certain habits in our daily practices as managers, leaders, you know, founders, whatever happens to be, if we are more aware of these things that we can put into place, it might remove the bumps down the road kind of thing, right? So if we're healthy on an ongoing basis, there's less chance that we're going to, you know, run into a problem. And so the first thing you've already said is awareness. A lot of times we run into these difficult conversations because we weren't aware of something that was already happening. Maybe something's already happening for a month or two or three, or whatever it is, but we just weren't aware of our surroundings, and we weren't paying attention to what was happening, especially if you're managing a team more than one person you know, maybe these habits have already been brewing within your team, or these nuances within your team culture, and so if, if we're not aware that those things happening by the time a fire erupts, then it's like whoa. Now we got to have this difficult conversation, but just being noticing and alert of what's going on. I think the other way that we can help mitigate some of these difficult conversations is by recognizing that they are an option upfront, sometimes because of awkwardness, or, like you said, people pleasing, or whatever it happens to be, we think, Okay, let's try every other option before we get to actually having to talk about it. And the downside to that is it probably snowballs. So if you'd started talking, you know, if I had a thing with you, and you know, we talked about it today, it might be, you know, this big of a difficult conversation. But because I'm like, ooh, let me try to send her a subtle message. Let me try to, you know, imply this should happen without saying it out loud, or let's just kick this can down the road. By the time a month passes, it's now, it's humongous, right? And so I think recognizing upfront as a leader, that this is an option we should be exploring and not a last resort, even just a mental awareness of that, I think, I think, is really important. Also as a leader, it's being ready to have them. Some difficult conversations are planned, which is great, you know. Maybe you're doing a performance review and you know you have to give some bad news, or maybe you have to, you know, resolve a conflict in in your team, those are usually more planned. But I think as a leader, we need to have a posture of being ready at any time to have those conversations. Because as you're being alert, timeliness is often key, right that you when you catch something, you can just nip it in the bud right away and by delaying it, that, like I said, causes more problems. And so just that posture as a leader, of thinking, Okay, I know it's awkward. I know nobody wants to do it, but it's part of the gig. It's part of leading a team or working with a client, or whatever happens to be. Just knowing that that is something that may happen just makes you more ready. You know then it's less shocking for yourself. Those are some ways that, I guess, would help prevent this from becoming a big boulder down the road.
Yeah, you know what you're reminding me of. One of the things I like to do is create a conflict, practicing system, or, you know, a way, of practicing conflict as a regular thing, you know, for clients. And so what that means is just instead of treating conflict as a bad thing, let's avoid it. Let's invite conflict into our everyday, you know, activities. So if you have like, a regular team meeting to say at the end of the meeting, Hey, how did that go for everyone? Let's pick one thing that went well, one thing that didn't, that we could have done better. So you get used to doing it. And then when you have something really difficult to say, you know, you find the words,
Yes, yeah, yeah. You just get used to it, right? I mean, it's sometimes a little bit like, you know, like, oh, I don't like going to dinner parties, for example, because, you know, I don't know how to talk to people, but, like you were saying earlier, it's a muscle. And so if you do it often enough times, you might not love it, still. I don't think anybody loves conflict. But it becomes less of a hurdle to get over and to talk about it.
Yeah. And you have more confidence. Absolutely. Okay, so good segue into getting a little bit more proactive. Okay, so let's, let's look at slicing and dicing these difficult conversations a bit differently. So sometimes they're planned, so we know we're going into this meeting. Maybe it's a performance management maybe we're really upset about something. Sometimes we're the ones that are sort of railroaded, and we were not expecting. We didn't even think we did anything wrong, and somebody's really upset, and they corner us. So we can be the initiator. We can be the receiver. So it's a mixed bag. So how do we get more proactive, generally, for these difficult conversations.
I don't think there's a silver bullet. I think that's why this is important, that we're having this conversation, because there are so many nuances, especially when you're on the receiving end of it. But let's start with, you know, sort of the ones that we're delivering right? I think one of the things that I've learned over time is the importance of having a stance. Oftentimes difficult conversations get more difficult than they should be because they get emotional or personal. And so if I'm telling you that I didn't like what you did in your recent project or whatever. Let's say, you know, I'm your manager, and if it all sounds very like, oh, Hannah's having a bad day, or Hannah doesn't like this, and, you know, if it just sounds very personal, then you're going to receive it, you know, in that way. But having a stance would mean that this is not a matter of my opinion. It's okay, you know, let's say the client expected this and you delivered this instead. So the objectivity of it needs to come through, and people can, most people can reasonably accept, you know, constructive criticism or feedback on something being less than. What's hard to accept is when it feels like an attack on, you know, Sandra, you're just not a good worker, like, what? That's right? And so having a stance means that it's not Hannah's opinion. Is that we want to do what's best for the client, or we want to deliver a good project, you know, tonality, you know, just the way it's even being communicated. So much of this is a communications exercise, all those of us that are in marketing, right? And so just the power of communication. You know, so much of what we communicate is not in what's said. It's our body language, it's our tone, it's all these other things. And so even when we deliver that, it's important to just be very conscious of yes, you might be unhappy about this thing, but how is this person going to receive it? One thing I'm always reminded of is, am I saying what this person needs to hear or what I want to say? That's a significant difference. I might want to just, you know, keep going. But is that what you need in that moment? Like, let's exhibit a bit of empathy but also, you know, wisdom in how we communicate and say, Okay, in this moment, what Sandra needs is to know what areas of the project wants so she can go and fix it, which is totally fine, you know. Now if I'm disappointed in her in other ways, you know, I need to go take a take a deep breath, you know, get a coffee or something and calm down before I do that, and just say what she needs to hear. And not just because I want to go off on a tangent and a rampage.
Hannah, this is really fun. Not so if you're going into a hard conversation. But to talk about, it's fun. So can we take that and actually do a role play right now? So let's say you have something to say to me, and you've been holding it back, and now you have to, like, calm down all those frustrated feelings and find the right way to say it. Let's role play for our listeners a little.
Sure. I mean, the first place I would start is I would just ask. I say, hey, Sandra, you know this project you've been working on, tell me how you've been going about it. I always start with the person, just giving them a chance to kind of say their piece. And it's a bit of self restraint, especially if I'm in a mood, you know, from like, reading the report that you wrote, and I'm like, god, this is completely off, you know, but giving you a chance first so you don't feel like I'm just coming in and, you know, punching you in the face.
Love the questions.
So Sandra, just take me through what your process was when you were doing this project. You know, has there been hiccups? And also giving you a chance to share with me, maybe things I didn't know, right? Maybe something happened, or somebody else tossed in on this project. And you know, that influenced your work, and I didn't know about it. I'm not sitting there all day watching you do it. And so it also gives you a chance to share with me before I offload on you. And then you're not going to be defensive about it, right? This is not you responding. I'm giving you a chance to speak first. So, Sandra, okay, so you're working on Project A, How have things been going? Tell me what your process was, just so I can understand where you're coming from. Did you do ABC, you know, DEF, whatever, whatever, as you were going about it. And then you would respond, and hopefully in a very non-defensive way, just kind of give me the lay of the land. That's, how it would start.
Or you might, get an answer from me that shows you that I knew there was an issue. Like, it could be that I'm like, oh, you know, Hannah, I know why you're asking me that question, because it really wasn't my best work. And, you know, honestly, I had a time crunch. I had to leave early, you know, whatever, I had a problem with, you know, my family, it was a personal emergency. And maybe you didn't know that, but I have the awareness that it wasn't good work.
So then now we've diffused potentially an explosion. Whereas if I came in at, you know, at a 10 and just started cutting this project apart, then you will be like, What? What about this? And, now we’re four hours in later. You know, we're screaming at each other, right? But if your response was what it was, it may be that we just saved ourselves two hours of talking, right, which is great, and then we focus on resolving it, right? Like if I said, Oh, I actually didn't know that. But Okay, then let's objectively talk about the parts of the project that need to be improved upon, because we both agree this is not okay, right? We both agree this needs to be better. We can't send it to the client yet, and then we're working together on a solution, and it's not me versus you versus this pointing back and forth type of thing.
Yeah. And, you know, I work with professional service firms, and I would say that across the board, all sectors, different levels of management. I think the one thing I'm seeing that people struggle with managers, struggle with more than anything, is giving feedback. That's really what you're talking about here. So giving feedback in a way that is direct and that gives the other person a chance to grow, to understand where the gaps are. Managers hold back and including different personality types. It's not like one personality type holds back. It's really a very common thing.
Yeah, yeah. So to your point, like, just now, you said, if you sensed that I was already, you know, dissatisfied with the quality of project, you knew it wasn't your best work, you just confessed it on the spot. So that that's one way it could have played out. But the other way it could have played out is if you were just like, well, I did this, and you're just unaware. So if that's the case, then going back to my point about having a stance, I need to then point out the areas of the project objectively, that were not good enough, and not in a because I'm having a bad day way, but that this doesn't meet the mark according to a certain standard. This is not how we deliver things to clients. This is not how we, you know, whatever, whatever. And in that way, then you can actually fix something. You don't have to weed through a lot of emotion, a lot of anger, a lot of personal attack just to fix. Now that's not to say that I have to be a robot and I have to put aside my feelings entirely. I think there is a time and place to know how that impacts me, but in a mature and controlled way that, after talking about the project and say, Look, Sandra, I really value as a team member, but I just want you to know that, you know, if we can improve on this in the future, because this does impact the team, it impacts the work that we do. It impacts our reputation with a client. And you know, so that you understand that your work does matter, both good and bad, right? Like, when things go well, we all win. But if, you're not going to be aware of these things, this does hurt us. And so it's not to guilt you, but it's to paint you the whole picture on the tactical like, let's fix the stuff. But also, you know, emotionally, I don't want managers to listen to this and feel like, well, then I have to be a robot, and I always have to put my feelings aside, I think, in a mature way of sharing those feelings that is helpful for you to know that your manager feels this way, right? But in no way is this like screaming at you.
Yeah, right. And I think that what you're saying is a way to get through the difficult conversation is to find alignment. So with the person that you have to, you know, have this conversation with, to find the thing that you're going to partner on, whether it's the common purpose or your values. You both believe, you know, we don't want to put bad work out there, or, you know, we're in agreement about what this work is going to achieve for us. It's actually important, and, you know, and that's from a higher place like it's uplifting, as opposed to conflict, as we're disagreeing, and I'm going to say something you're not going to like.
You're right. Because if we keep it at the personal level, then suddenly it's a race to the bottom. Is what it is. If I can, I'd like to flip this to sort of a client management situation, because I guess in professional services that’s where a lot of difficult conversations come up as well. You know, I'm not saying this is something everyone will want to do. I know I certainly don't want to do it, but it has worked out well. And I think there is some psychological backing to this as well. When a client is upset, how do you take it, right? When you sit on the receiving end of things? So in my many years of client management, probably the most common is disagreeing over timelines, right? Suddenly a timeline will change, and you now have to deliver something a week earlier than originally it would have been, or budgets cut, or something like that. Usually those are the two things right, time and budget, right? And so most of the time, your client coming to you is going to be upset. Again I would then, you know, just flip what I was saying earlier on that, you know, hoping that I can then embody myself as receiving it, instead of giving it. Letting that person just share their emotions, but not taking it personally. You know, I have been shouted at many times in a client situation, and early on in my career as a very young account manager, I could tell you, you know, it wound up in tears because I felt very personally attacked, and that's not okay, right? I'm not saying it's okay for your client to yell at you, but there's also sort of rising above it and knowing how to navigate those situations, right? Because I can't control that person's behavior, but I can't quit my career every time someone gets upset at me, you know. So I think there's one just expecting that people have emotions and they may not be great at sharing them, right? And then, okay, if they're going to explode, Fine, let that get out first, because you can't work on solving something for your client until they feel like they've offloaded in that way, right? And again, not saying it's okay, but if it needs to happen, letting that out. And then after that, it's just remembering it's not an all or nothing game. The thing with difficult solutions is, what can we give and what can we take? You know, it's about that kind of compromise. I don't mean compromise in a bad way. I mean just in a helpful way. So when a client says, Okay, we're cutting budget, then it's not like, well, then we're not doing this job unless it really is that, you know, it's okay. What can we reduce? What can like, how can we make this better for you? If time is short, okay, what can we deliver that's a draft, let's say, Right? Or so you still have something like, it's like you said, it's elevating the conversation, so you're solving to something greater. It's not about I need to win and you need to lose, or whatever it's let's just get through this. Like we all just need to go get a glass of wine, you know? So how do we get to the end of this so we can go do that, right? And so I think a lot of times with these client conversations, they come unexpected, because someone's just going to call you and say, Hey, our budget's cut in half. Okay, what does that mean? Let's, calmly think about this. Can we reduce scope? Can we phase it out? Can we do it over time? What is it right? Like, there's so many combinations and permutations we can explore. This is what I have found to be really helpful in client management, because these things are going to happen, right? And, you know, losing a client over this could be quite detrimental to the business as well. And so we don't want that.
And, I love that you're starting with allow it. Because if somebody feels that they have permission to speak, you know, even if they're not even being really hot headed about it. It still can be hard to hear it right, because, you know, for some of us really proud of our work or perfectionist or, like, scared of consequences, and we still may want to shut it down, even if the client's being polite. And so this advice to allow it. Just listen. Don't defend yourself. Just listen. Even if you're right, just listen. And that alone solves problems. It may not be solving the whole thing, but letting them speak is the beginning of solving the problems.
Oh, it's very disarming, actually. Believe it or not, if a client’s screaming at you, and even if they think they're right, which they usually do. And that's fine. And even if you can prove that you are right, if you don't do it in that moment, you wait till they've just said their piece, then you take a step back. A running start will save a multitude of problems. Take a running start and say, let's just review the project from the beginning. Okay? And then through that review, you can then say, well, here's where we've checked in, here's what we've done, here's what, you know, that kind of thing. And then, well, you know, we didn't hear back from you for a month, actually, and that's why this thing's been delayed. Okay, now you're bringing in facts in a calm and collective manner, and not as a because you said this, and I'm saying this, you know. I mean, unfortunately in client management, we have to be the bigger person, like we just have to. And so it's about getting to the point of conversation where it's not fighting fire with fire. It's okay. People need to feel things and say things. Okay. Now let's solve the problem.
Yeah, and you know that calm energy you're actually exuding it now, even as you're explaining this, and that calm energy is catchy, right? And we're talking about difficult conversations, people can bring their emotions to it, and it can get very heated. But if somebody starts and they take you by surprise and the client is upset about something, even if they're being polite, that can still be emotional, and it can be very upsetting. And if you react to that, if you bring your own emotions and response, it just escalates and escalates and escalates, right? But if in response to their hot emotion, you listen, you tell them, This is what I've heard, you know, and you have a calm response. Let me bring you up to speed on our end of it, and we'll work on a solution. We have your back. We understand what you're looking for. They're going to calm down. They're going to catch your calm feelings.
Yep, Yep, absolutely. To give a more specific example, or examples, rather, this has happened so many times where a client will call us up, and we're on retainer in many cases, right? And so they can call us up kind of whenever they want, and give us a brief over text message and do all these things. And okay, and it might not be that we've done anything wrong, but they just come in with a request that's very last minute, not unheard of, right? You know? And so while we want to help, there's often unrealistic expectation as to how much we can do in the next let's say three hours, right? Or whatever it is, or if we don't sleep, or whatever happens to be. And I think in that moment to remind them, and I actually do say this, let's say they need a presentation done, because the last minute they have to present to the CEO at nine in the morning or eight in the morning or something like that, right? And it's now already the day before, and so I will actually say what is the bare minimum you need us to do to make you look good, right? As an agency, or whatever it is you're doing, if you can make your client look good, you win. That's it. So, yes, you asked for a 50 page presentation, which unfortunately, I'm guessing I cannot do before, you know, it's like the next morning. Okay, so what? What do you need to get through this, you know? And then it becomes a solving of what is and not a well, they ask for this, and I'm saying no, and you know. And then it becomes this crazy, you know, and they're inflexible, and you're on retainer, and it, whoa, okay, that escalated really quickly, right? Whereas, okay, I understand you want 50 slides. Do you? Can you present all 50 slides in 15 minutes to the CEO? Let's talk about what are the bare minimum like, what is the 10 slides you need that are going to make you look really great? How can I help you reshape the story so you can tell 50 slides in 10 and knock it out of the park? Let's do that.
What's so great about what you just said, Hannah, is, instead of getting, all you know, caught up in the story of, oh, I can't do this. I can't do this, and why are they asking me? And do they feel like they own me? Instead of getting caught up in that storyline, instead what you're doing is you're telling the client, I understand what's most important to you. What's most important to you is that you go into this meeting tomorrow and you feel confident, and you feel like you have what you need for your client. Okay, let's talk about that.
Yes. And then it becomes solving things together, and you're standing on the same side, you know. I think, difficult conversations, whether it's with your, you know, team member, or whether it's with your client or vendor, or whatever it is, and it's any relationships, conflict resolution, really, it's that we're on the same side. Then it's not me versus you, and you did this and counting, you know, tit for tat and all that kind of stuff.
Okay, so, we know that these are nice strategies, but there will be obstacles, and let's talk about some of the typical ones. You know, what have you seen happen? Even if you have a good strategy to overcoming these, you have some awareness of what's going on, you're still going to run into obstacles. And how do you navigate those so that at the end of the day you feel like, okay, I met my goals for this, you know, difficult conversation.
Yeah, so let's take the example of, you know, you're prepared, you've come at it objectively even, and the person just doesn't receive it well. Whether it's a client or whether it's your, you know, staff member, what happens to be and they just don't take it well. And I think before you even go into a sort of imagining, like, worst case scenario. How do we then handle this? Like, let's just play out the worst case, right? So if I'm preparing for a conversation with you, and instead of saying, Well, I had to leave early, I knew this wasn't my best work. If you exploded, you know, and you are just like what? Or some people just don't take warnings from HR for their behavior very well, and, you know, end up causing a huge you know… There's all these scenarios, right? If you know that, that's one of the possibilities that helps you emotionally prepare for it, at least, then you're not sitting back in shock, but then also knowing that you have achieved your goal in this right? So look, the client might still be upset, but I have now made a point about where our boundaries are. We're not going to work at 2am to do your 50 page slide deck. I offered this. I offered that. And this is also part of the alertness and awareness of logging, and I don't mean logging so that you can use it as, like, evidence in court and like, you know, kind of like, tell your client, like, Oh, you did this and you did that. But it's actually really important in professional services to be able to paper trail or track all the things that have happened, because if things do get messy, then you can go back to that, right? And to protect yourself as professional service companies, right? We do need to think about that as well. So even if it goes badly, which it sometimes does, at least, you know, the steps you've taken to be proactive, but also to be prudent in noting the facts, giving time, having the right responses, like all that kind of stuff. I've had situations where I have had to, you know, actually pull all of that out, because my client's boss was like, Hey, this is, you know, I've been hearing a lot of bad things, but I don't think you guys are doing a bad job. Can you tell me what's really going on? And instead of Hannah telling a super long story, I was able to just say, look, on this day we sent this, we didn't hear for three weeks. And then on this day, we sent reminders. We sent, you know. And so this thing is delayed now, not because I was snoozing, but because we have not heard from anybody for months now, and now we're being blamed for the deadline being missed, you know. And so I'm not being a historian so that I can go pick at other people's stuff, but it's really to protect the team. And I think as team leaders and professional services, we owe it to our team to have all that stuff in place, because our team members are going to need us, especially those who report to you, to, you know, stand as united front, to protect the company on that side.
It's the fact story line.
Yeah.
And I think you're raising a good point that one of the biggest obstacles is you don't know how the other person is going to react. Sure, yeah. So you know, being honest with yourself about your intention. How do you want to carry yourself in this meeting? You started this conversation Hannah with the word stance, and I think we're going back to that. It's like, okay, so be honest with yourself, what is your intention towards this other person for your own goals and without needing to control the way they react? Yeah, if it doesn't go your way, will you be happy with having actually shown up with your true intention?
Yeah. I mean, I can give an example. You know, I was coaching somebody, head of an organization, and they had somebody on their team who was overly kind hearted, let's put it that way. And so whenever the client asked for one thing, they were so out of the goodness of their heart, they were just like, oh, I'll just do more. Oh, I'll help you with this. I'll help you, you know. And so the leader that I was coaching, she was telling me all that. She's like, how do I, you know? Like, this is it's getting out of control, because now we're giving away services for free, really. But this person is not malicious in doing it. They're just, so, you know, giving and, you know, kind. And so they're just always offering to help, and they see it as I'm helping. And they were, they were a junior member of the team, and so they hadn't been doing this long enough where they realized, like, we go by the hour, you know, it's like you're doing that right? And so the way I coached this person, and I said, you know, you got to have a conversation with, you know? And first of all, it starts with acknowledging that the goodness of the heart is not a bad thing. We're not here to squash that. We're not here to say, well, you should be a shark, and, you know, you shouldn't be nice to people and whatever, but to acknowledge, first of all, you know who they are and what we appreciate about them, because it makes them a great team member, actually, right? They're, always very helpful with their teammates, but understanding in the context of this business, right? We need to be more prudent in how we, you know, behave towards clients, versus internal teams, versus, you know, that kind of thing and we're going to lose our shirts on this if your time is, you know, constantly given away for free. And she was concerned, because she thought, what if they don't take it well, you know, like, what if they just feel like I'm attacking them for being nice and, you know, judging them and all these things which could possibly happen? And I said, Well, they're in a professional service company, and so if, like I said, you're going to start with not judging their character and slamming them down, you're going to affirm who they are, which is a beautiful thing, but just giving an adjustment to it. And if they take that the wrong way, if they take it as like, Oh, she's, you know, you know, all these things, then maybe they're not the right fit for the team. So in in the conversation she and I had before she talked to that person, we pretty much already went all the way down the rabbit hole and just said, Okay, if this person ends up leaving, it's sad, because they're a great member of the team, but then they're not really fit to be in a professional service company if they can't, you know, have that awareness that their time is being billed for. And so in that way, we already played it out. And so, she wasn't so nervous. She wasn't, you know, so like, ah, what if, you know? And it turns out the person took it really well, actually. So that was great, you know, but it doesn't always happen that way. But the person was like, oh, yeah, I know you're right. And you know, it did sting a little bit, because it was about, you know, their personality, but it wasn't a judgment. It wasn't condemning of that person and who they were. But it doesn't always work out, and I think it's important to objectively have that stance on if it doesn't work out, it doesn't mean that you're a bad person, especially in HR conversations, it's that person is not fit to be in professional services if they just want to, you know, be kind and help, and their time is unlimited in that way, right? And so just kind of playing out both possible outcomes, I think sometimes just helps make it less tense.
Yeah, I agree with you. That's such a great story. By the way, Hannah. In describing the worst case scenario that could possibly play out as one of your obstacles, this person could react this way, and to be okay with that, before you have the conversation. There's a letting go, like, I don't need to control the exact outcomes of this particular conversation. When you learn that you don't need to control them, what you really need to control is how you handle your end of the conversation, your intention, and following through with your intention. And if that person doesn't you know partner with you. That's their right. If you're okay with letting go of that, you walk into that conversation with more ease.
Yeah, absolutely. And they can feel that too. I mean, they may not be able to articulate it, but the other person will feel when you walk in with just less of a you have to respond in this way.
That controlling you're going to do what I say.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And, you know, I just want to sort of take a different angle on the same thing. So this idea of the typical obstacles what I like to do is sort of anticipate what can possibly come up, or maybe what has come up in the past, and come up with systems to, like you said earlier, avoid. And so can you come up with policies, or, you know, conversations where you onboard either staff or you onboard your clients, where you're very clear and you don't apologize for, these are hours of operations, or this is who's going to handle this part of your our work, as opposed to, you're always going to work with me, so that you manage their expectations right up front. And then when the client comes back and has an issue, very calmly, you can remind them. Do you remember when we had that conversation about… You don't just send them an email with, oh, yeah, here's our you know, here's our policy. They're not going to read that. You need to take them through it, yeah, calmly, kindly and help them understand. And then remind them again, calmly and help them understand.
Yeah, absolutely, you know. So going back to, you know, avoidable and unavoidable, you know, difficult conversations, right? Some of these avoidable conversations is using communications and other forms to help build those parameters. So it's sort of like, you know, if you don't have a fence around your backyard, then you're constantly out there just fending off every dog who wants to do his business in your backyard. You build a fence that helps keep out the majority of the dogs who want to do their business in the backyard, and now you only have to fend off the ones who are crazy enough to jump the fence, right? And then you can save your energy for that. And that's a weird analogy. I kind of came up with it on the spot. There you go. But that's what really those policies and parameters are, and they're there to protect your team as well. And I'm just really conscious of the role of the leader to have these things in place, these really strong communication parameters to protect your team. Because oftentimes, if there are more junior people on your team, they don't have the same clout and experience as you do to navigate things with clients. And so especially, I know in the early days of my career, I was watching my boss, like, just say one thing, and the client would totally just like, back off. I'm like, How do you do that? Oh, my goodness, you know. And here I am just like, scrambling around, right? And I really appreciated when there were things that I could lean on, like policies, guidelines, terms, conditions, parameters, things like that, where I don't have to be the bad guy and keep telling my client, like, oh, I don't want to do this for you, which, of course, is not right, but it's that, you know, actually, like you said, like, well, you know, we don't do things overnight or, you know, there's an express fee, or there is, you know, there's a minimum turnaround time, or there's a whatever it is, right? And then that way we, you know, your teammates, can lean on those things. That's a huge help, and it, you know, reduces conflict. So, yeah, I would say, definitely putting those things in place turns, you know, difficult conversations into avoidable ones, right? Because you're it doesn't even happen anymore, because you can lean on that policy for sure.
And I think this is a good segue into where possibly the difficult conversation happens because your personal values, you know have been injured, or you know they're at risk. And can you think of any examples of those kinds of scenarios, Hannah?
Well, actually, just that one that was talking about this person being super kind. It was, I actually knew who that other person was as well. And so I, you know, the staff member that was, you know, that was being too kind and therefore not billing his hours. And it was based on values. Like that person really believed that, you know, they wanted to be helpful in that moment. And, you know, but it wasn't even just clients. They were also, you know, helping vendors. They were just overly helpful. And it just, it was a boundaries issue, right? And so that person's values, I just think, weren't suitable to be in this professional service industry, because that made them feel like they couldn't, you know, it was a job fit thing, and once they were aware of it, they improved. But I think over time, it also is a test of, you know, sort of team culture, corporate culture, like, what is the right fit for someone to be in, the types of roles that we need them to be in. We want people to be doing what they're made to do, right? And so if there's, if there's that kind of conflict between a person's values and, you know, business agenda and all these things. Sometimes they're adaptable, I would say, but other times, maybe it's just a fit thing, and that's okay, you know. But the sooner we raise that, the sooner this person can move on to a vocation or job that's, you know, much more suited for them, you know. And so I think there's also value in the timeliness of these conversations, because we want people to be doing their best in a context that brings out their best, right?
Yeah, you know, I've done a few of these podcasts on company culture, and that, it always comes back to values, shared values, shared values with clients, share values with complimentary professionals, where you help each other to grow and share values with your team, and that is sort of the easiest way to succeed, and to do it in a way that feels like a fun, joyful ride, you know, just as opposed to drudgery?
Yeah, no, and I'm glad you brought that up, because values at the company level can unite people, right? Can bring people together under, you know, a common agenda, right? Which is great, but oftentimes, when it becomes, let's say, the founders’ values versus the team members’ own personal values, then it becomes a personal thing, and it's not under any kind of common ground. You know, I've seen certain founders that I've tried to coach in this area, and you know, they would say, Well, I've been telling my team members to not do this, because it actually cost us a lot when they do that wrong. So, like, they should be following a certain process when they're doing something right, but these team members do not follow the process. And so she's like, been telling them over and over again, there's a procedure and all these things and and she kind of brought this up more than once, and I so I dug into it a little bit, and I said, So pretend I'm that person, like, how have you been communicating? I want to know how you've been saying that. I know that you've been saying it, but I want to know how you've been saying it, right? And she said, you know, this, this, when you don't do it like this, you know, it actually cost the company a whole bunch of money. And, you know, cost us debt. And you know, we're already in debt, and we have overwhelming debt, you know, all these things. And so she just kind of gave me the demonstration of what she would normally say. And I said to her, I'm not sure your employees care that you're in debt, actually. So I'm not saying that they should therefore continue wasting company resources. My point is that you're sensitive about debt because you're the founder of this organization and that's valid, right? But that's not a motivating, you know, factor for your staff to right now. If it's for the good of the business and it's so that everybody can grow and now we've got something more than just your agenda, it can't come across as well, because I think this is, you know, even though you're the founder of the organization, like you know, and so going back to what I was saying about saying what the other person needs to hear and not what you want to say. So in this case, she just wanted to be upset about the fact that you wasting money causes us more debt, which is totally true, but I don't think they care, you know.
So twist that around a little. Hannah, so how would you say it, in a way that they would care?
Well, overall, that it's their job to ensure this process is done. Well, that's their job, and that's what they're measured. The performance is measured against that. So if this process, whatever it is, you know, you're building widgets, if the widgets cost more than they should, or the widgets break down, or the widget, whatever it is that you're doing, is not done to the quality that they should so that we can sell them to customers, everyone gets impacted. Your performance is under review, right? You have criteria for pay raise, or for a promotion, or for whatever it is, you know, like, and the company also needs to keep making money so that we can pay you like, it's the, it's the higher agenda up here, and not because I'm the founder and I'm swimming in debt that now I need to make it your problem, because I don't think you care, and so it's not that they, I don't think they would want more debt, but it's just not a motivating point, and so it needs to be angled towards an agenda that matters to them.
Yeah, and I totally agree with you. I think that the way to make a difficult conversation an easy conversation is to reframe it completely and say, Okay, I'm going to go in there and talk about the thing the other person cares about. And just as an example, you were talking before about giving somebody feedback, you know, let's say your team member. So if, instead of telling them that you're not happy with the work that they did, if instead you go in with something like, listen, I know that you're looking to rise rapidly in this business. I know you're ambitious. I got your back. I want to help you. It's my job to help you go as fast as you can. Yes, and one of the steps you're going to have to overcome is getting good at proofreading or getting good at doing these reports faster, you're not there yet. That's normal at this stage. So let's talk about the steps for you to get better at this in a way that aligns with your career goals.
Yeah, absolutely. And even what you just said like that, there's the tonality thing. So going back to the tone of how you communicate it, along with what you said, right? So when you're talking to your staff about them wasting money, not doing the process, it can sound defensive like, well, you're wasting money, and you don't care about this, and it becomes this very scoldy, defensive type of thing. But if we take it to this level of the company's overall health that therefore, you know, impacts your overall job health and your growth and your whatever, okay, now it's not naggy, you know. Nobody needs nagging in the workplace like that, that's just not a thing, you know, and so objectivity, but also framing it in a way that is about the team and about that agenda and not about because you're upset about this one thing.
Yeah, I totally agree with you, and I love this conversation. Okay, so is there anything you want to say, just as a sort of parting words for anyone who's listening to this and wants to build that muscle? What do you suggest to them to just, you know, day by day, get a little bit better at difficult conversations?
Yeah, I would. I always think it's a mental shift before it's a physical shift. So going back to what I said earlier, about reminding yourself that this is an option, it's not the last resort, and so if you realize it's an option up front, then you're going to lower the bar of the barrier of entry, on when you should be using a difficult conversation, you're not going to wait till a month later. You know, if you see something that's like, oh, you know, Sandra is kind of doing that, not quite right? I can foresee that if she keeps doing it like that, bad things are going to happen. Well, let's just see if bad things happen, potentially, right? Like, that's kind of how we kick the can down the road. But if I'm, like, maybe I should just go remind her, you know, in a friendly way, you know, like, hey, you know, like, How's it going with that? Like, is it going okay? You're, you know, you're checking all these things or whatever. And it may be that even in this two second conversation, I've now reminded you to go check that thing that now won't explode later on. And then, okay, so now we've just totally diffused something that could have exploded later on, right? And so the fact that, in my mind, I'm thinking, Okay, this is an option upfront, just being ready. I think that readiness and alertness, because there's so much context around difficult conversations. You can't just helicopter in. And I can tell you, one of the worst things a manager can do is to see a conflict, not know the before and after and the you know, all the details, and just come in and start trying to, you know, you know, solve it, but not really solve it, because, you know, it's just sort of trying to throw a blanket on the fire right that actually it hurts the team, right? Because then people don't feel heard, people don't feel seen, and you know that you're just going to come in without knowing all the facts, kind of thing. So being aware and alert and understanding the context of things will put you ahead of the game to even be ready to have those and that's the first step, I would say, of exercising that muscle. And it'll get easier as you go.
So I heard a lot of wisdom in what you just said, and a couple of, a couple of things that I heard just now from you is, instead of getting better at the difficult conversation, get better at the mini difficult conversation regularly, mini difficult conversations, and show up as somebody who wants to be helpful.
Yeah, yep. Absolutely love it.
Thank you, Hannah, thank you so much for this conversation.
This was not difficult at all.
That's awesome.
And to our listeners. If you are interested in learning more about Hannah Lau, please go to Astera.Asia. You've been listening to Get in the Driver's Seat, stories about leadership moments in professional practice. I'm your host. Sandra Bekhor, Practice Management Coach at Bekhor Management. Take care everybody.
