Dave Irvine — Why Founders Must Scale Themselves Before They Scale Their Companies | FV Podcast Ep. 68

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There are some people who enter your life with for a relatively short period and fundamentally changed the way you think.
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David Irvine is one of those people for me.
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In 2018, I attended his other reverence retreat at the band center.
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And to date, it remains one of the most influential leadership experiences of my life.
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David has spent decades helping leaders understand that authentic leadership isn't primarily about techniques, titles, or authority.
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It's about who we are when we lead.
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Today I want to explore what that means specifically for founders.
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It's our company skills.
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How must we scale ourselves?
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David, welcome to Scaling with Clarity.
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Well, thank you.
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It's an honor to be here, sir.
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It's uh it's an absolute pleasure.
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Um, I genuinely meant every word that they said in uh in introduction.
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Um, my executive coach introduced me to um Larry Malastrevich, uh, introduced me to your new work.
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Um he recommended they attend your training.
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And uh boy, do I ever um like uh am I ever grateful for for that recommendation and decision because it was by far one of the most influential um training.
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Well, thank you.
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It was it was great to have you there, and I'm very impressed that you remembered it and that it that it had this kind of impact.
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This is almost 10 years later, huh?
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I agree.
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Uh yeah, absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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So um for context, I mean, before we jumped on um on the call, I I helped to frame the the conversation.
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Future ventures is uh boutique capital advisory firm.
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We work with uh with with founders.
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Uh our ideal founder is somebody that's like um running a company with five to about 50 plus million dollars in revenues.
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This is who we typically work with.
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Um one of the concepts that they that they took away from the other average training that uh I did with you is that there's the external average that we're all climbing in terms of the achievements, the external persona, but then there's the outer Everest that that we need to focus on.
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So for for the for the people that are not familiar with your work, can you just describe the the concept and why the out the uh outer Everest is more important than the outer Everest?
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Yes, absolutely.
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It's a great question.
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So I think we all understand that that Everest is the tallest point on the planet at more than 8,000 meters above sea level.
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And the Everest journey represents to me what most of us are on in the first half of our life.
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We're making a mark, we're achieving a summit, we're growing our business, we're making a name for ourselves, we're developing our ego, we're separating from our parents, we're we're making a mark in the world.
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And that's an important journey to take.
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But somewhere along the line, we're gonna fall off that mountain, and we're gonna take the other journey, which is the journey down.
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And what's less known is the Mariana Trench is a is essentially a virtual Everest more than 8,000 meters below the sea level.
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And this is what I'm always been fascinated in is where does the ability to impact others come from?
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And it doesn't come necessarily.
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If you think in your own life, who have been the people who have impacted your life?
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And your listeners go into that question: who have been the people who have influenced your life?
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It isn't because of their title, they may have had a title, but it's their presence.
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And where does that presence come from?
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And how do we develop that stronger presence?
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And that comes from what I call this inner journey.
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You know, Jim Collins talked about good to great.
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What separates a good leader from a great leader, from a master, in part comes from taking an inner journey and facing it, might be facing an addiction, a failure, a divorce, a hardship, adversity, a loss.
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And it deepens you if you allow yourself to go into it rather than just distract yourself.
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And this is what I'm really passionate about guiding people into this inner journey and realizing the impact that this had.
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And we had this experience when you and I were together, we we went through and experienced that inner journey.
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And I love your notion of you got to scale yourself before you scale your business.
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And I I I can I can talk more about that, but I'll let you respond first.
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No, uh please do uh for me.
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Um the the training that you and I took together um has been foundational in how I approach life and how I approach business.
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If I remember your personal mission statement for you, was you wanted to be you wanted to drive change impact for for change makers or something like that.
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For me, it it became um, I want to drive clarity for the people around me.
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Um, because I personally view that in order for a leader, in order for a business to scale, it all starts with clarity.
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And so hence this is the reason why I named my podcast Scaling with Clarity.
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Um, I mean, ultimately I see the impact, the outcome as a byproduct of that clarity.
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Um so that's how at least that's the personal mission statement I've adopted is like I want to help people drive the clarity.
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Yeah, I love this notion of scaling yourself before you scale your business.
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I went through a process probably 20 years ago of trying to scale this thing.
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And and I had a team of consultants working with me, and you know what?
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It didn't work because I wasn't first of all, I probably wasn't skillful at at scaling it at that time, but I needed to get really clear first within myself what is what is the quality of life that I want to create?
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Why am I scaling?
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Do I want to just build this thing for the sake of building it?
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Do I want to just make it big because and I bought into a notion, I have to be really honest with you, I bought into a notion that bigger was greater.
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And and I stressed myself in the process, and I and I had to align with my own values to say, you know what?
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I really am not a person who wants to scale this.
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I I love uh Bo Burlingham's notion of a small giant where greatness is more important than size, and impact.
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I want to impact the few rather than impress the many.
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Now, could I scale this?
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Yeah, I I could, but I look at Covey's work, for example, and I talked, and he had an ability of scaling this so that his his processes internally influence many, many, many people.
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My impact though, if you if you talk to people, you can say, well, it was covey training, but it wasn't covey.
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And my brand is my signature.
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And I want it, I want to be there.
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I I haven't found a way to brand to to uh elevate myself beyond myself, but I've just I've discovered that for me, I am who I am the impact in my business.
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Now, if I ran a tech company or made widgets, I'd obviously want to brand, I'd want to scale that thing.
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But this is a different kind of business.
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So I had to get really clear what was what was important to me before I could begin to think about scaling.
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And I think sometimes we just jump on the, for want of a better word, a scaling uh bandwagon because it's it's an important thing to do, and without really looking within ourselves first.
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I couldn't agree more with you, Andy's uh if even even from the context of just finances and capital.
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Um a lot of the uh the the funders that we work with originally the the idea around scaling is like um uh I want to I want to establish a company, I want this company to go and raise money from venture capital, I want to scale it to like start the spirit heights.
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And if you look at this over the last two years, what has emerged as the preferred approach for founders to become less around venture capital, and some of it is driven by the fact that a lot of the capital has been flowed, um flowed into AI and um um quantum companies and away from more traditional industries.
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But at the moment, probably the most popular capital model is it's called seed strapping, where the founder would bootstrap to a point that may raise the external capital, seed capital to to grow the company.
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And then it's that uh like they leverage debt in order to grow the company.
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And so it becomes less about I want to be from five to fifty to a hundred and fifty million dollar company.
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It's more about I want a sustainable business that's highly profitable.
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And size, if size comes, that's great.
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But profitability matters more than than revenue because revenue, it's a bit of a vein matrix.
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Same thing with like, well, how much money have you raised?
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Well, I've raised a hundred million dollars.
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Well, have you made a dollar in profit?
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Yeah, so it's kind of interesting that you're saying this.
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So I would I would argue that that's conscious growth, that that's you're growing for the fact that it's aligned with your own, what I call your authentic self.
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Yeah, and you're not just getting onto a bandwagon because it's a popular thing to do.
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Is that fair language to use?
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A hundred percent.
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But you have to be comfortable with yourself to be able to see this because the popular refrain is like, well, you have to be doing this, you have to be raising money, you have to be doing if you're not doing this, then something's wrong with you, or maybe you don't have a successful company.
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But when you are when you know your authentic self, it becomes less about the external metrics and perception and more about what you're trying to do.
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You've just described probably the biggest outcome of my work is people get comfortable with themselves, and as you can see, everything stems from that.
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You have to be at peace with yourself.
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I've I've coached people over the years that are still driven by a father who died 20 years ago, but they still have to feel like they have to prove themselves to their parents, is an example.
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Uh, rather than taking that inner journey and really examining what are my values, what do I stand for, what's right for me.
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And I I think you're alluding to that fact that you're getting a lot more business owners who are much more authentic than in my generation growing up.
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100%, 100%.
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Um, uh I want you to respond to a concept.
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I couldn't agree more with you.
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You have to know who you are, you have to know where you're going in order to get there.
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Um are you familiar with the work of Angela Dockworth from UPAN?
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I am.
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Okay.
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So if I look from an investor list, because we invest in companies, uh future ventures, uh what we're looking for is people with a lot of grid and resilience, people that have overcome adversity, because that forces them to push and break through walls, walk through fires, uh, swim through oceans.
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So that's important.
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So that chip on the shoulder is actually a flag, a green flag for us to invest in somebody.
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But we don't necessarily want this green flag to come with a bit of a baggage, like it's good to have a chip on the shoulder because you have to prove something.
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You just want to make sure make sure that you're motivated by the right reasons, proving to somebody that you can accomplish something, and for this to be dafter in terms of where you want to go, because proving for the sake of proving is a bit pointless.
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Exactly.
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Was there a question about that that you wanted me to address?
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Like what is your reaction?
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Do you agree?
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Do you disagree?
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How would you reframe it?
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I I absolutely agree.
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I absolutely agree.
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Uh that uh that we that we have to well go ahead and and uh re reframe that again so that I get a clear picture of what that what that challenge is.
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Somebody that that has a chip on the shoulder, and that chip on the shoulder is is is is is for example somebody saying, You can't accomplish this, you're not good enough, or whatever, versus the example that you give.
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Somebody's driven in their business by what their fathers or whatever expectations somebody else has imposed on them.
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Internal drive versus maybe external impositions.
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So that chip on your shoulder can absolutely, as I agree, be a motivator.
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You want to make sure that that's I'm gonna call it an authentic chip because you can be you can be so angry that anger can drive your business, but it can also be a motivator.
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And this is something that is not a blanket statement that somebody external to a person could you can't define what's authentic by looking at a chip in the shoulder on your shoulder.
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You have to really examine that within yourself.
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Hey, what's the nature of this chip?
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Hey, listen, I was I was pushed down and I'm gonna prove that I can that I can climb this bloody mountain.
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Well, that can be a very positive drive.
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But if you feel as though you have to you have to push to reach that top in order to have worth, then it can then it can exceed its function and be can become actually dysfunctional and problematic for you.
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So it's a very individual decision, but it's a great question to ask.
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What is this, what is this meaning of this chip on your shoulder?
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Is it a motivator or is it a definer of your worth?
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Agreed, completely agree.
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So in this context, uh I would think a common question a founder would have is like who do I need to become next?
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Um like how do I grow the company?
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How do I scale the company?
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I am who I am.
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Do I have um the skills, the capabilities to grow the to lead the company in the future?
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A company that has five employees versus 50 employees versus 500 employees, they're they're quite different.
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How how does the founder answer the question?
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Who do I need to become next?
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That's a great question, and that is an authentic question.
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And that's a much better question than where am I going to take my business?
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Let's remember, Maxim, that the purpose of a business is it's a tool to create what matters in your life.
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First of all, have to know what really matters to me.
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Now, maybe what matters to you, you need a tool with you need a five uh a $50 million company or a $500 million company to achieve what truly matters to you.
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But you have to decide that for yourself.
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What and you that's an inside job.
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It's like when you say I'm busy.
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Well, the question becomes, is it a good busy?
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You only can answer that question for yourself.
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And this is this is the journey that I take leaders on, is to is to stop and slow down.
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The main thing is don't compare your company to another company.
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I mean, you can don't don't measure your worth based on how it compares to other something external.
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You're still on the you're still on the uh journey to Everest, you're not on the other journey.
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When you start to say, what really matters to me, what matters to my family, what's the quality of life in my life, what are my values, and then how big does the business have to be to support that quality of life?
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That's the question.
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What am I called to do and to be?
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Rather than just what am I driven based on uh comparison to other companies?
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I agree.
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This prompts uh a second question for me.
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What if you find yourself um at a point of divergence?
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Um kind of even to your example, like you we had a team of consultants, you were looking to grow this company and you had a realization, but that's not really who I am.
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So if if if it's a founder and say that they've grown the company to 100 million dollars and now they have I don't know, 200 employees working for them, and I'm like, but that's lost, it's fun.
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Like I really enjoyed it 20 more.
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50.
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How do we square off this?
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Like, does this mean it like should go about thinking about bringing uh another founder, AT in the business, selling a business, uh retrenching?
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Kind of like if if somebody's at that crossroad, what what would be your advice?
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How would you guide them through the journey?
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I meet people on that crossroad in my coaching all the time, Maxim.
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This is such a common situation, and it really depends.
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I'm gonna say it depends on the situation.
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You might very well uh find a founder that can help, that can take over somebody whose passion and drive and is still on that journey to take it to the 200 million.
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And then what do I need to do to cut back?
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But the main thing is to get very clear on what is really important to you.
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And then I always say, don't worry about the how, worry about the what and the why.
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And once you get the what and the why, my experience is the how work takes care of itself.
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I'm working right now with a guy who's built a very large business, but he's no longer passionate about the business anymore.
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And he's and he's it's like he's he's gone past his shelf life.
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What's he gonna do about that?
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Um, and so he's in a real quandary.
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He's built, he's got all these employees.
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He doesn't want to just sell the company or just walk away from the company, but he wants to find so we're in the middle of answering that very same thing.
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But what's really important is that he wants to simplify his life and he doesn't want the pressure of employees anymore.
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He's had that for 30 years, and he wants to create something else in his life.
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He basically wants to spend time uh working in non in the nonprofit sector, yeah.
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But that's that's where he finds importance, and he we're just working together on finding someone that he can that he can sell the business to that's aligned with his values so that his culture can be sustained.
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I hear you.
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And I'll I'll try to play the the devil's advocate for for the phones that they're listening, because some of them may say, well, he's made it.
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Like, you know, he's got the financial security, he's not pursuing um growth or scale or whatever it might be because well, he's made it, and so now he can really pursue his real passion.
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How would you respond to that?
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Yeah, that that's a valid point, actually.
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But what's important, and you know, I think sometimes we just have to, I always say the difference between the morning in your life and the evening in your life, and maybe if you're in the morning, if you're still climbing that mountain and you want to still keep driving yourself, there's nothing wrong with that.
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But keep in mind uh what really matters in your life, and and I'm reluctant to say wait until you build this thing and then you sell it to have really what you want.
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If you don't create what you want along the way, I don't, it's like it's like waiting for retirement.
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It's not going to happen somewhere else.
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But I this is at least the question to keep asking on the climb up the mountain is what really matters to me.
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Rather than just putting on blinders and driving this thing for the sake of driving it, I'm just slowing leaders down and asking them, making sure that they live their life in alignment with their values.
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Maybe it means how many days off are you going to take a year?
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:31.200
And what are you gonna do with your days off?
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:41.119
And what are you gonna do to have free days and spend time with the important people in your life, whether it's traveling or developing another passion or contributing to the community?
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:42.640
Just keep asking those questions.
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.039
I hope that uh answers your question enough.
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:46.319
It's a great question.
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:48.079
It does, it does.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:22:08.559
Um, David, you often write about the masks, the different that the founders have to wear, and and if you're in a leadership position, you find yourself In in a situation, even when time is a tough, you have to project this confidence what to employees, to investors, to customers, to different stakeholders.
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:14.559
At what point is the this necessary projection of confidence becomes a mask?
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:15.839
Okay.
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:19.279
This is a very you you ask great questions, Maxim.
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:20.400
I love the questions.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:21.440
I love the questions.
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:27.519
So for me, yes, you have to wear masks, so you have to know that it's a mask.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:32.720
If you get lost in the mask, that's when it becomes problematic.
00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:41.359
So for me, what's important is every leader, and this is what I this is what I want your listeners to understand.
00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:49.119
Every leader needs some kind of a community in their life where they can take their ass off, where they can be who they are.
00:22:49.119 --> 00:23:15.759
I'll I'll tell you, uh, I was just coaching recently uh a woman who who who got into a very senior role in an organization, and she stood in front of the group in her first meeting in the in the in the uh uh new organization that she was appointed to, and she said, I'm really scared of this position, and I don't know, I'm so insecure, I don't know if I can make it.
00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:21.920
This is before she had hired uh me to work with her, and she lost all credibility.
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:28.480
She lost all credibility because she she turned her organization into her therapist.
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:38.160
She used her organization, she took that mask off unconsciously, and she thought she was being authentic, but she just ruined her her authenticity.
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:41.519
So, what I helped her see, she had to leave the organization.
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:46.160
What I helped her see is bring all that to your coach, to your community.
00:23:46.160 --> 00:24:01.680
We all need some kind of a peer mentoring program, which we offer, but nonetheless, we all need a confidant, somebody that we can take all of that to, and then it won't be a mask when we go and bring our strongest self.
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:03.599
It's no different than a marriage.
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:16.880
We all need a some kind of a guide or a therapist or a coach in our in our personal relationship, so that we can bring our mess to our community and we bring our gift to our marriage.
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:25.119
We have to bring our strength to our community to our uh organization and to our company and to our personal relationship.
00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:28.720
Don't think, don't use your organization for that purpose.
00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:33.680
So it's so we all carry masks, but we have to have some place in our life when we're not.
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:35.039
Does that make sense?
00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:35.839
It does.
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:36.400
It does.
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:42.640
I have a follow-up question to this, um, that because this is a uh a really good example.
00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:58.160
Because this this um there are people like Brene Brown that talks about vulnerability, and I'm sure that this leader that you're specifically referring to um thought that she was being vulnerable uh and she had good intentions behind sharing.
00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:07.680
And and and uh a lot of people have this uh uh impulse to syndrome when they're into a role that that's different from what they've done in the past.
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:34.079
But like what should the and and and I I couldn't agree more with you that you have to have your kitchen cabinet or your confidant that that you that that you um you know uh become uh very vulnerable or very exposed, but like what should the leader reveal publicly that that drives the authenticity, the vulnerability, and what should the leader carry privately or share with their confidant?
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:37.200
That's a question to bring to your confidant.
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:48.799
Okay, for example, in this case, uh when I coached her, the next the next leadership work that she got into, what she what she did is she shared her values.
00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:57.519
She what I call appropriate vulnerability, not therapy vulnerability, and there's a level of vulnerability.
00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:29.039
For example, she showed pictures, she showed slides of growing up on a farm, and she showed her values of her dad and what she got from her dad, and she she talked about her own values and what she brings as values, and then she talked about hey, I need your help with this, and she could extend uh that's appropriate vulnerability, sharing your values, sharing your needs, um, uh sharing your passion, sharing your vision.
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:38.400
These are all methods of vulnerability, these are all vulnerability, but they're vulnerability that's cushioned in strength, not in weakness.
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:44.240
And we we need to get really vulnerability, is there's such a spectrum of vulnerability.
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:58.720
Um with my coach, I'll bring, I'll bring everything, I'll bring every insecurity that I have, but that's not appropriate to bring that to my work because then I turn my clients into my therapists.
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:12.400
David, um, I mean, I I do remember um I I do remember you you sharing that you have a coach back in 2018 and and you brought it up again.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:14.799
Why does a coach need a coach?
00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:23.519
Oh, because listen, we for the same reason every leader needs a coach, some kind and a guide.
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:37.200
Uh somebody who can look at your life through a new set of lenses, somebody that can help uh put it all to put put your life together when it's falling apart, somebody that you can go and lean to.
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:45.599
Uh, if you're not doing your own work, you can't you can only take people as far as you are have have gone personally in your life.
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:52.160
If you haven't taken that inner journey, you can't take people to their authentic self and their authentic success.
00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:56.559
So I have always had a coach, a therapist, a guide.
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:02.079
Uh I've had a guide for my parenting, for my relate personal relationships.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:03.119
I'm in a community.
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:06.400
It's a peer support, uh, peer mentoring.
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:09.519
Uh, I just find it's just critical for my own work.
00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:11.519
I couldn't do this work without it.
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:13.359
Interesting.
00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:20.480
Um I don't know how how much of your work is working with with founders, kind of like in our space.
00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:36.000
Um, like if even even the big founders talk about founders mode when it's like go, go, go, results, like, you know, burning in the midnight all, like you're constantly working in, and it's all with intention of driving results, uh, driving accountability to your team.
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:39.119
You talk about accountability without fear.
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:50.319
How do you accomplish this where like I I for a period of two or three years, I I had a mentor, um, amazing guy, uh, absolutely amazing guy.
00:28:50.319 --> 00:29:05.279
And what he was telling me is that uh the way you know that you're succeeding is when the team is high-fiving each other and and you know there, and there's like other people that they follow, like Scott Galloway that talks about great decision in the agency of others.
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:17.440
But like, how do you drive accountability in teams in your organization without the fear, without you know putting a lens on somebody's work and and making them feeling like you're you're watching them?
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:19.759
Well, this is a really good question.
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:25.759
Again, I think what has to happen is I I integrate accountability with authenticity.
00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:29.680
So accountability by itself is drudgery.
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:32.079
That's just results, results, results.
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:35.119
But that there has to be a compelling reason.
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:37.359
Why are we producing these results?
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:38.400
What's in it for you?
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:39.680
What's in it for me?
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:45.039
And and where is my passion and my my unique abilities coming into this work?
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:54.240
And then build your accountability around your passion and your unique abilities so that you integrate accountability with authenticity.
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:56.880
This is what makes accountability uh real.
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:02.079
And therefore, there's these are heart-to-heart conversations to have in the workplace.
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:03.920
Listen, this is what we expect.
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:09.519
These results are these results that we expect from you aligned with what your values are.
00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:12.000
Let's make sure we make we align that.
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:18.559
We have to align the values of the of the team members to the organization and the organization to the team members.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:20.720
And this is what links us together.
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:30.400
And maybe we have to say, you know what, for the 10 next 10 years, we're gonna build this sucker so that we can create something out of it, so that it's a means to a higher end.
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:31.599
And this is what the end is.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:32.240
But you know what?
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:40.240
Let's all I need people to roll up their sleeves for the next three years and and just and just burn the midnight oil.
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:51.519
But let's make sure we have a conversation about making that uh an authentic success rather than just uh pushing it and driving other people to do that.
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:55.359
I know it's a complex question, but I hope that makes sense.
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:57.119
Well, it it does.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:00.799
Um You can be a devil's advocate, by the way.
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:01.759
I love that.
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:05.599
Uh well for me it's it's it's it's driving to clarity.
00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:11.440
So um I don't disagree with any of the statements that you made.
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:13.759
My my question becomes great.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:16.559
I I agree fundamentally agree with this.
00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:22.000
If you have an organization, there's job to be done and there is passions and interest.
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:26.240
And sometimes you're in a role, and so how do you mode and shape the roles?
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:30.960
And obviously, the bigger the organization, the more you define your role is so how do you shape this?
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:39.599
Because uh, I mean it's a bit of a push and pull, like you you can have uh a pull from your leader, you can be pushing for a different change from a role.
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:41.279
But how do you strike these balance?
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:42.720
How do you mold it?
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:45.039
Like, how do you shape it?
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:47.440
Well, you shape it through conversation.
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:52.559
Two things you shape it through your own personal clarity, and then you shape it through a conversation.
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:55.440
You got to talk to people, say, you know what, we got to build this thing.
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:57.359
This is the vision of where we're going.
00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:01.680
And we need to under, I need to really make it clear why are we doing this?
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:04.720
And is this aligned with what's important to you?
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:08.720
Because this we're gonna have to hammer this thing for the next six months.
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:12.400
Um, I hate to say three years, that's a long time to hammer it.
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:23.920
But uh, and by the way, um, having having run uh at an Olympic level, uh, rest and recovery has to be integrated into the process.
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:33.839
And how are we gonna and we also have to have a conversation around how are we gonna make sure that we stay renewed and that we don't just burn people out?
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:49.440
And and how it so this has to go through conversations rather than just big conversations, we also have to have meaningful, what I call authentic conversations along the way to make sure that we keep people aligned with their values.
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:56.640
So uh I love this idea around the person.
00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:18.559
How do you drive this within your organization, this authenticity, or uh knowing your why, knowing your purpose as a as an organization, knowing what you through North Star is and how you go in there, uh, being clear in our business, the one of the most common advice that we give founders is like need just, make reaches.
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:22.319
So be clear on who you want to be.
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:25.200
One of the red flag works that we have is platform.
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:26.720
I'm building a platform, okay.
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:32.559
If you're building a platform, we're not a part of you because that means that you're not clear on what you're trying to accomplish.
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:42.319
Um it and maybe like if if you were um at $100 million, $200 million, if you had a dozen employees, maybe platform is a possibility.
00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:45.599
But how do you drive all the festival within your organization?
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:47.759
How do you how do you build the culture?
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:50.319
How do you drive the clarity around the North Star?
00:33:51.279 --> 00:34:00.240
Well, you drive it the same way you drive it within yourself, is that you take the time to reflect on is this company aligned with my values?
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.279
Is where I'm taking this company aligned with my values?
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:08.880
And then go to your senior leadership team and say, we need to have this conversation at a very personal level.
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:12.000
Is this company driving your own personal values?
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:13.760
Tell me a story about that.
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:15.920
Why does this company matter to you?
00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:18.480
Why is building this company matter to you?
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:27.840
Where do we want to all take this company so that we all get aligned, not just in terms of strategy and goals, but in terms of values?
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:42.000
And this is, you know, we we put these bloody uh value statements on the wall, uh, but let's make them real and and and let's make sure that are my values personally aligned with those values, and how are we going to build accountability?
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:47.440
Now, one of the things we haven't talked about today, Maximum, is accountability, because I'm big on accountability.
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:52.559
Uh but it's just making sure how will we what will we agree with each other?
00:34:52.559 --> 00:35:04.079
Because accountability is all based on agreements with each other, clear agreements, and making sure that those part of that accountability agreement is aligned with our personal values and passion.
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:08.239
But that's how you build trust is through those agreements.
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:10.480
Completely agree with you.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:28.079
Um one thing when I started to work in the technology space that uh uh that became uh apparent to me, um, a lot of the Silicon Valley companies, I think John Dower came up with a concept uh for goal setting and accountability called objectives and key results.
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:41.920
And I even in CAGRI, I'm slowly starting to see this permeate through some of the big organizations because goal setting previously was done very uh I don't know, uh for the sake of being done rather than to drive outcomes.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:47.519
And now I'm seeing this happen more and more um to drive this accountability.
00:35:47.519 --> 00:36:05.519
Do you are you familiar with OKR, the the framework, and then how do you um how do you create this uh authenticity in the person in terms of what their role should be, what their contributions should be?
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:17.840
Should companies be following like the Google model where they have 20% of their time, so the 80% on the the company assigned tasks, 20% on personal passion projects.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:24.559
How do you go about infusing as much authenticity and passion in the work?
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:26.800
Yeah, it's a great question again.
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:44.079
Uh I think what happens is uh you we read okay, Google gives 10% of their uh 10% of their, I think it's or 20%, I don't know, I don't I kept up on the research, but you know, you you go and and uh take 20 10 20 of your free time on your own passion project.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:54.480
Well it be careful that that if somebody else is doing this, we think we have to do it to be successful, make it authentic.
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:57.760
So, say what would motivate you here?
00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:00.480
Um, what what sustains you?
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:06.559
We the only way to have to to find this is through conversations and honoring this.
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:10.639
So, some people, hey, my whole work is my passion project.
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:14.400
I don't need to take 10% away for a passion project.
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.440
Uh younger generation, it's gonna change.
00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:22.719
So you're gonna get a different answer, perhaps, from a 20-year-old than you get from a 40-year-old.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:26.400
And then you have to be honest with them to say, listen, you know what?
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.679
Uh, you're not gonna be a partner here in this business in three years.
00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:31.119
You got to pay your dues.
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:37.360
And this, so we we are hiring somebody that just wants to pay their dues right now and really contribute.
00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:40.000
But what can we help you in your personal life?
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:42.400
How can we help sustain your own personal life?
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:47.519
If you if you give us your your heart and soul here, how can we create value for you?
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:56.079
I so I can't stress enough, it just has to happen through honoring conversations and just and not just blindly building this thing.
00:37:56.079 --> 00:38:01.519
We all come into it from a different perspective, and so we're gonna answer those questions differently.
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:03.199
Agreed.
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:09.119
Um, part and parcel of this conversation, trust and how you be able to trust it, scale.
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:20.000
Um, and and what we do is we help companies scale, but we help companies scale through uh strategy, growth, and capital.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:22.800
Um, but trust becomes really, really important.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:24.480
Accountability is really, really important.
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:28.400
It varies at different kind of this natural inflection point.
00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:30.639
How do you build trust at scale?
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:38.320
Because trust looks very differently, different when you have six employees, 60 employees, or 600 employees.
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:41.440
Yeah, it's it builds one person at a time.
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:48.159
So my definition of trust is it's a belief in and a reliance upon someone or something.
00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:50.480
So there's two elements to trust.
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:52.320
One is the accountability.
00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:53.840
Can I count on you?
00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:59.280
And to really being being able to um, you can call me offline.
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.599
We can talk about this much more offline, Max.
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:06.320
And I'm happy to be in your I'm in your corner here, so we we can talk more about much more about this.
00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:08.960
But first of all, let's have a clear agreement.
00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:16.239
What do what do we expect from each other, both in terms of an attitude and in terms of our our operational outcomes?
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:18.079
So can we count on each other?
00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:19.519
That's fundamental to trust.
00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:24.400
But we also have to have a real there's a relational component to it.
00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:26.639
Is this person trustworthy?
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:28.960
Uh, do they have strong characters?
00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:31.840
Um, are they a person that I want to connect to?
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:32.800
Do they care?
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:36.239
There has to be there's an emotional component to trust.
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:42.880
You know, you can I could show up today, but if I can't connect with you, then there's going to be a disc.
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:46.960
If that disconnect is there, the trust can't be developed.
00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:50.880
So uh it have you have to be very intentional.
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:55.119
Trust is a value that it's fundamental to our work together.
00:39:55.119 --> 00:40:00.719
And it has to be how do we make sure that that trust is there in all of our relationships?
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:05.440
And it happens first of all at the executive level, then at the next level down.
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:11.280
And how do we this is one of the things that I do is foster this kind of trust process.
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:15.599
You have to have a good process for trust throughout your whole company.
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:17.599
Agreed.
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:28.559
Um I want to bring AI and what is the impact of AI on trust, on authenticity.
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:37.199
What are your about be it the empirical observation or or research that you have seen, kind of like what is the impact of AI on this?
00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:42.159
Yeah, you can't you can't talk about leadership today without talking about AI.
00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:47.679
First of all, um, yeah, this would be a conversation probably all on its own.
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:51.280
But let me give you a the my quick response.
00:40:51.280 --> 00:40:53.360
It's a great business partner.
00:40:53.360 --> 00:41:02.079
Uh it's a partner that you cannot dismiss at this at this time in our it is a great tool.
00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:08.719
Uh AI, from my experience, it can't just make you be more efficient.
00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:13.280
If it's only helping you be more efficient, it's not sustainable.
00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:15.840
It has to help you make more money.
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:18.079
Uh, it has to be profitable.
00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:28.960
So there's a whole, you know, there's a whole system in place where you can create an AI agent um and and and to that they can do their job.
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:30.719
But here's the whole thing with AI.
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:36.320
You always have to have, and this is an obvious statement, you always have to have human oversight.
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:40.079
You uh AI will never replace the human beings.
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:41.920
Remember, it's a tool.
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:47.199
Just like this cell phone that's sitting here, it's a tool, this computer that we have.
00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:48.480
That's a tool.
00:41:48.480 --> 00:42:03.679
And remember, uh, I learned this probably 45 years ago by a book by Nesbitt uh who talked about every tech high touch, high tech has to be accompanied equally by high touch.
00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:15.599
And if you forget the high touch, we can't technology will never run our you don't expect AI to run our companies, but it's a great partnership and it's a great tool.
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:17.760
That's the short answer to AI.
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:20.960
Now we can go into that in more specific if you want.
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:22.719
Okay, it's agreed.
00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:37.119
Um some of the observations that we're seeing, uh, this is purely empirically what we're seeing is there's more money flowing towards companies that are providing analog experiences.
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:40.400
So this is just purely from an investment dollars and where they're flowering.
00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:51.679
But the other thing that we're seeing is um uh when COVID came along, everyone was really, really happy to, you know, for the flexibility that they afforded.
00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:57.280
Um and then we've seen this the loneliness epidemic starting to set in.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:01.039
And the younger you are, the more you want to be in the physical environment.
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:16.960
But also what like what we've seen is like people are just so fed up with like digital experiences, so fed up with AI and the AI plot that gets generated that they're just they just having this human connection.
00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:23.039
And so um my my this is my personal belief.
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:40.719
Um, and and this is a great advice that they receive from one of my mentors, is that your relations your network defines your network, and it's the the the one thing that AI cannot uh uh create is the the relationship that you establish.
00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:49.679
But relationship and trust can only be built in a physical physical analog environment rather than a digital environment.
00:43:54.239 --> 00:44:14.800
I agree, and you see, uh I have an opportunity to have purchased through AI, a a scheduling system where people can call my office and they'll just automatically get a robot that will help that will help them schedule their coaching clients.
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:16.559
And it's going to be so simple.
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:18.239
It would be so simple for me.
00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:38.159
I could save uh probably $100,000 a year having an AI agent doing this for me for $80 $80 a month I could I can pay this robot to do all my scheduling for me and I can and I can replace an administrative assistant.
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:47.199
Then I ask myself what's the customer experience and I want a customer when they and and I'm not saying I'm right.
00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:49.519
I just think we have to be very clear.
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:59.679
I don't I would rather spend invest in that money to have a good customer service when a client calls my office that they get it a real person.
00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:03.519
Yeah and that we schedule and is it a little more clunky?
00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:07.920
Yep but it gives the customer a much better experience.
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:10.400
And that but that's what I stand for.
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:21.599
So make sure that we always keep in mind what is what is the team members' experience what's the customer experience does it improve that experience that's well that's what's paramount.
00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:26.000
Agreed I mean you're saying the same thing I think we're on the same page here.
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:46.960
For sure and and today I had a frustrating moment with one of our partners big big company global company and they were they're focusing on automation and processes rather than thinking about what is the customer experience.
00:45:46.960 --> 00:46:12.480
And so I got so frustrated that I emailed the VP in in Montreal that the France Canada and said look I look they're the incumbent they're a really large corporation and said I am moving my business to another provider because the incumbent behavior has frustrated me to no end like you're not listening to any of the feedback that you provided I've taken time to provide you with the feedback.
00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:19.599
You don't care about the customer experience all you care about is try to do it through the system.
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:57.440
Try to do it with the system and like it just doesn't work that way at some point what you taught is a positive net benefit becomes a negative 100% and efficiency isn't always the goal is not always the goal you you're a human touch Kai and uh you we have to honor that that's authentic that's the kind of company I want to build and I want to be very intentional and I will compromise some efficiency because I believe that customer experience trumps efficiency.
00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:07.760
Now we have to always balance that we can't be completely inefficient because then it's going to eventually rob it's going to diminish the customer experience.
00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:16.000
But that's something that this high touch high tech has to continually be examined from my perspective.
00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:16.480
Okay.
00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:27.119
David we work with a lot of successful people and and and so do you but I'm curious to to draw the parallel between success versus significance.
00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:37.840
You know you've seen the studies when somebody's on their debt but they're not wishing that they made another million or they made this they look for they're longing for this human connection.
00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:54.079
So kind of like how do you describe the the the difference between success versus significance and and and and how should founders think about significance over this outer average over this external perceived success.
00:47:54.400 --> 00:48:26.880
You've you have lived that in the next in the last hour that we've been talking you have exuded that because it's who you are but let me get let me tell you a story when I was 18 um my dad took me for a walk up in our on our farm and he took me up and he put his arm around me he says this was but this was in the cold it was in the middle of the winter so he said my dad says we got about four months before you leave home my dad was a pretty smart guy and he said the conventional thing is to wish you success.
00:48:26.880 --> 00:48:30.239
Yeah he said I'm not going to wish you success.
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:39.920
Yeah I'm going to wish for you that something that's going to be much harder and that is meaning I want you to have a meaningful life similar to what you're talking about significance.
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:46.639
And uh now that's good advice to give a 17 year old 18 year old but I had no clue what my dad was talking about.
00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:53.840
But I've been on this quest what my experience this outer Everest is this is the financial success.
00:48:53.840 --> 00:49:15.840
So success is external it's building a reputation it's building a company and there's nothing wrong with success because success can lead to success for other people if you you know if you have a thousand employees you're giving a thousand employees and their families an income there's nothing wrong with that success.
00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:55.280
But don't ever forget along the way that there's this other component to life which is meaning and how do we create meaning and it's it's not what we achieve it's what we give it's what we contribute it's it's what we bring to the world this is where the real meaning is going to come at the end of our life and you know having walked through my brother through his uh cancer journey and until his dying you you hit his dying awakened my living about it just be close to somebody who's dying and lean into that and find out what really matters in life.
00:49:55.280 --> 00:50:00.480
And there's success is a tool but success is not the goal.
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:01.440
Yeah.
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:14.800
Are you familiar with the Japanese word misogi I am I am you want to give me your take on that I love this idea so I try to have a misogi every year.
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:24.239
And so for me this year um the key has been uh I'm working on launching the Future Ventures Academy.
00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:32.320
And so essentially we we get asked by founders consistently almost the same questions all the time.
00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:34.480
Maybe the circumstances are slightly different.
00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:45.599
So what we decided we wanted to do is we're going to put this into a 22 module curriculum that anybody can take online we'll have videos and then we're going to have conversations in person.
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:52.000
What we're trying to do is to have an in-person group based on particular interest um and just form this.
00:50:52.000 --> 00:51:03.760
And so um I'm not looking at building this as a money making machine for me it was like I want to drive clarity for other founders or for drive clarity for the people around me.
00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:10.000
And so for me this was the the big for this year is I'm working on launching the Future Vengies Academy.
00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:13.519
That's the and so I tried to come up with something similar to this.
00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:26.239
So last year um at the end of the year my my wife and I um kind of came up with a list of 10 things the 10 big goals that we were looking to accomplish in in 2026.
00:51:26.239 --> 00:51:44.800
And every night leading up to New Year's we we were parting one they were folded into little piece of paper so we didn't know what's gonna um what's going to be left standing I guess um and not turning into ash and so launching the podcast was that last piece that was left for me.
00:51:45.119 --> 00:52:53.519
I was very concerned like I had an imposter syndrome like why am I doing this people going to uh uh say like well I was worried about what other people would think of me and then once I uh once I reflected on why am I doing it I was I was at peace with myself I was comfortable I'm doing this because every conversation for me is a learning opportunity it feeds my curiosity I help other people drive clarity and so that's what I was doing but like um I'm just looking do you do you believe in misogyis do you have a misogy like what is your misogy for for yeah my my description of it is an immortality project we have to be building something that's gonna live beyond us that will make a difference on the planet you know there's an old Zen saying that the person who plants the trees rarely gets to see the beauty of the shade and and so I want to be continually working on something that that will that will build that that immortality project.
00:52:53.519 --> 00:56:43.280
And I I have to say that um oh I lost my train of thought there what what what um it so success and those immortality projects are not mutually exclusive you're you're you're successful and you're building that mountain but you're also contributing and giving back right now my my uh masogi is that I'm working on on men shit which is a nonprofit organization I'm spending a a good part of my time right now um building uh men coming together and and building for the community and but they're they're uh creating community and creating a place where they belong uh and uh these are men who typically kind of are alone and don't come together and so this is what's really uh passionate for it's a passion project for me right now amazing David I know we're we're almost at time my typical closing question is is it's kind of a two-part question that that you can choose from and the question typically goes what is the kindest thing anyone has ever done for you or and or what is the best advice that you have ever received but I I want to change it slightly you said that one of the most important things is like who the I'm curious who is the person that has had the biggest impact for you on your life and why I would say my father because he wow he didn't care what people thought of him he was a connector and he wouldn't have been called a successful businessman but he loved and he sacrificed and uh I have a picture of him he when he signed up to go to war to to enlist in the Second World War he uh he was turned down because of his eyesight but he stayed home and worked with the boys in his community whose fathers were serving and he's an unsung hero and when I had polio when I was four and I came home he didn't feel sorry for me he built he was a he was a Canadian gymnastics champion and he took he he we put some parallel bars in the basement and a and a tumbling mat and he worked with me and he said uh don't pray for the world for you to get don't pray for the world to make it easier pray for you to get stronger he believed in me and he was there for me he didn't feel sorry for me but he pushed me to be who I am today so I would say without question it was my dad wow and and and and I can see this impact uh I mean your eyes tear it up but I I've seen you physically when we were doing the yoga session uh you were the strongest person there you can do headstand and keep that headstand straight up like as if it's like you're the world champion um so obviously that has had a lifelong yeah yeah and he was preparing me because he suffered from depression in his later years and I do too I inherited his depression and and the gift it was to me because I couldn't do this work if I hadn't gone through some mental health challenges.
00:56:43.280 --> 00:56:56.320
But he was really preparing me at a young age at how to deal with it and how to be strong through it and how to ask for help and how to be vulnerable through it and how to have a community to build that.
00:56:56.320 --> 00:57:01.039
So I I've just thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with you.
00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:08.559
I love your presence I love your impact and I I would spend time with you anytime Maxim I'm really appreciative of us reconnecting here.
00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:13.840
Absolutely I would love to have you back um I would love to connect in person.
00:57:13.840 --> 00:57:20.159
Your advice and insights truly have been foundational for me.
00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:36.159
Like I have taken so much from them it it has been in many ways a guiding light even though you haven't been physically present in my life you have had a mental presence in my life that has had an impact like that significant.
00:57:37.599 --> 00:58:09.679
Wow that's uh very inspiring and that's why I do what I do um this is what matters to me is to hear this kind of a message that I was able to to leave an impact on someone's heart and I can't recommend enough if anyone is looking for guidance I can't recommend you enough um you have been and you and you are amazing at what you do thank you my friend we'll talk again it's been a it's been a real honor and a pleasure thanks David