Ground Ladder Operations: Training, Maintenance, and Firefighter Safety

Nat Kapustin: From MSA helmets and streamlight flashlights to seek thermal imaging cameras and so much more, the firestore.com has everything you need to serve your community safely and effectively. Hey, welcome back to our fire engineering podcast at Command Post. I'm Chief Rick Lasky, along with my best buddy, Chief John Salka. And we're glad you can join us again. And number one, welcome you back. hope your October is going good. It's John, it's fire prevention month. you know, it it let me throw this out there for first of all. And again, well, welcome to our to our to our viewers. I still find it amazing, buddy. you know, we're the fire service, we're we're steep in tradition, you know. everything we do, ceremonies and anniversaries and things like that. I I'm amazed when I teach classes how many firefighters still when I ask, I say, so why is October Fife for Venture Month? Why is the week of October 8th? And you we always you and I kind of joke about Miss Oliver's Cow, which is a fake story. But I'm amazed how many, how many people, and and it's not them. It's not the young firefighters, it's not their fault. You know, you can say, well, pick up a book and read it. I I'm laying it on the other guys and gals that are passing along that saying, hey, Kimmer, let me explain why October is important to us. That's our month. The reason we you know, that that's our month to be out there educating kids. We should be doing all year long, don't get me wrong, but that's our month to really highlight what it is we do. Every month should be fire prevention month, every month should be a public education month. Every chance we have to educate the public, to educate children, seniors, whatever make a difference to, you know. sa home safety checks, d doing our fi you know, our fire drills and fire inspection. And there's so many issues. There's so many issues. It's not really just even though the the term fire prevention to me is is not an attractive term. It's it's sort of it's sort of boring. Most guys are involved in the fire service. Most guys, most people, most firefighters w they didn't come here to be in the fire prevention bureau. You know what I'm saying? But having said that, the fact that we have a month desic dedicated and it's and it's naturally dedicated. You watch You watch Fox News in the morning when it starts, a lot a lot of the big channels cover fire prevention month. The great thing is, it just it just opens the door for us to talk about anything we want to talk about, which could be like you said, smoke detectors or or closing your door at night or you know, safety around the house. It's not just the actual term of fire prevention, but all the related stuff. Even for you drivers, you know, be careful when you approach a a stale, you know, green light. There might be an emergency vehicle coming the other way. There's so many things we can talk about with so many different people. under the under the title of Fire Prevention Month. Once you have the fire prevention, you know, even my Voltaire Fire Department, South Paloma Grove, they they they do two or three different ones. They go one of the grade schools and then they do something else, then they go to one of the senior places to talk about whatever issues affect those different groups of people. And it's very it's very helpful. It gives you a little bully pulpit for for for the month. Well let me go back to one of your original bosses. Obviously you didn't have a chance to work for but One of my idols in the fire service, Chief Croaker from the FDNY from the 1800s. You know, everybody wants everybody puts out there, you know, he's got a couple, he's got a couple poems, if you will, a couple of saying statements he made that I use. One is, one is, firemen are going to die, is the title of it. You know, their their first act of bravery was not when they went to their first fire. Their first act of bravery is when they signed up to be a firefighter. And it's a great another statement that doesn't get in a play as. I only have one ambition in life, and that is to be a fireman. You know, that and everybody puts it out there. But I'm like, he's the father of fire prevention, if you will. He's the one that fought for international building codes. He's the one, the big mustache, the the the big high top helmet, all this stuff. But when he was doing it back in the eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds, that was unheard of. and and to s to see what he saw and the hurt in his heart, he said, and to watch children die and people and stuff. And you know, and I think people miss that. They look in, they see the big mustache, the gear, the one picture of him standing with ice all over him with the big helmet. And I'm like, Yeah, he was into fighting fires. Don't get me wrong. He was he was an incredible leader, but but he was pushing fire prevention back then. And I always thought were supposed to prevent stuff from happening and educate people on how not to happen in the first place. But I'm just amazed how many people missed the whole reason for Hyperetra Month. And it goes back to, like I said, You know, October eighth is is the the fire prevention day, if you will, the week the week of fire prevention month, you know, is because of you know, October eighth, eighteen seventy-one, the great Chicago fire, October eighth, eighteen seventy-one. you know, 300 fatalities, 17,500 buildings destroyed. Yet, and you heard me say it's a class before, what's even more tragic about that day is we don't talk about another fire, the actual forgotten fire, if you Google it, in Peshtigo, Wisconsin, two roughly two hundred and ninety-five whatever miles from Chicago. Not get my atlas out right now, but over 2,000 people died, and we never talk about it. And then they talk about Miss Oleary's cow, which is a fairy tale, it's a lie, it's fake news, it never happened about Kato Leary milk and the cow and the calculator lantern. It was conjured up by a Chicago Tribune reporter halfway through it. The Chicago Fire Department for forever has been trying to educate people on the actual cause of that fire. And there, that another incredible fire department that brings awareness to. And they're aggressive firefighters, they love going to jobs and making a difference. But in fire prevention, and then you know, John, you and I've talked about when it comes down to codes, the the only reason we exist to our viewers, and you've been in our classes before, you heard John and I talk about it. The only reason we exist is because bad stuff has and continues to happen to people. You know, the the that's the reason. And and I'll ask people about the tipping point. Why, out of all the school disasters, there was lots of them. Collinsville, Ohio, it's like 170 fatalities, but there was one that was the tipping point. It was our lady Angels cat to school fire, December 1st, 1958. 95 fatalities, you know, three nuns and 92 children died. So the next time you're at a fire drill to school that you think, I'm here with these little brats, we got to grab a kid, all this stuff, and see if the teachers caught it. You're doing that because 92 little kids died in a school fire, you know, December 1st, 1958. The reason we have codes and theaters is because the Iroquois Theater Fire Chicago were 600 fatalities. The Brooklyn Theater by you, John, with like 350, I think if that number's right, fatalities. The the Rhodes Opera House at Boyertown, Pennsylvania, hundreds and hundreds of dead people, usually because that means of egress is insufficient, designed improperly or n or or covered up or blocked. And then the you know, place of public assembly. You know, why do we have codes regarding that? Well, coconut grove. You know, co you know, we talk about we talk about coconut grove over 400 fatalities, you know, that kind of stuff. So, you know, between You know, the theaters between a place of public assembly, there's more than that. I'm kind of jumping around here. You know you know, why do we have codes regarding barred and chained and locked doors in businesses, blocked exits, triangle shirtwaist factory fire? Absolutely. You know, the reason we have codes in hospitals, the Cleveland Clinic Fire, the X-ray film created cyanide poisoning, two of cyanide explosions and killed patients. The reason we have codes in prisons is the Ohio State Penitentiary fire with 320 fatalities. We're using our codes of nursing homes, the Katie JM Memorial Nurse Home in Missouri. Well, those nurse home patients were burned to death alive. and that week the the governor of Missouri changed the laws around nurse homes the rest the country follows suit. And it goes on and on and on. Hotels, the Winecauf Hotel for downtown Atlanta. And and then, you know, that last question John I asked all the time is what do we put in in natural propane gas as the odor in because it's natural state, it's odorless, and everybody knows we're capped in. I go, why? And They really can't put their finger on it. What disaster. Well, it was March 18, 1937, New London Middle School, New London, Texas, East Texas, brand new middle school had a leak, like at 323 in the afternoon, I believe. And a shop, it was called Green Gas, had no odor to it. a worker started a belt sander up and blew the school. Look at the folks, Google Texas school explosion and see the before and after period killed three like roughly 325 kids and their teachers. And two weeks later, Texas legislator put a law. In effect, regard yeah, you know we had to put Mercat and natural propane gas, the rest of the industry follows suit. Right now, all over the world when they smell gas is because of New London, Texas. We don't even educate our own guys and gals on why we exist, let alone why fire prevention month is there. So, folks, embrace it, get out there, make a difference. Remember, every month we fire prevention month. John and I both love going to fires. We love going. We love a good job. We love the challenge of fighting a fire and saving someone's life or their belongings, you know. It's not about the fascination with the fire as much as making a difference to people's lives we go to. But but on the other flip side of that, we need to be preventing harm and and making a difference in people's lives ahead of time. Every little kid, you know what, you want a wake-up call for that? Go to go to a burn center, talk to the little kids that are sitting there and go, you know, how could I have prevented this or what could I have said that may have changed this, you know, and it kind of wakes you up a little bit. So there's my pitch. It's October, it's fire prevention month. Hey, what do you want to talk about today? And you mentioned something, Golly, well, actually before we went live, but something a while back about portable ladders. Yeah, we haven't done one on portable ladders, ground ladders in a while. About everything from the training to the uses to the knee to you know, I I saw one on a pumper. I was teaching that to while going the you know, all the rigs were outside. And I think there's a telltale sign, John, is how many times guys take the extension ladder off a pumper when you see the halyard. Drooping like way down here, you know, it's not even taught, not even taught, you I'm saying it's like if you haven't, you know, I I there's some indicators that you could tell it hasn't been off the rig in a while. So your thoughts, first of all, on on where we should be with with portable ladders and their uses. And that, you know, I mean, there's so much we can cover. We don't even have time in one show, but let's start it off with your thoughts on portable ladders. Well, I mean, the first thing is, again, my experience is pretty diverse. I've been a volunteer office, I've a small. more paid departments. I'm obviously FDMI for thirty three years. So different departments use portable ladders differently, most of the time because of the structure of the department or the staffing. Obviously you have a small department with just a few people on each rig. It's difficult to get a crew of guy start to start throwing ladders up when stretches gotta be done and hose lines got to be stretched and stuff like that. Some departments have just enough people to get one line going and a team of two inside to start a search. And and that leaves like nobody outside except maybe the chief. But but in in in larger apartments or in places where you get you know, maybe it's a work and fire or indications of a work and fire early and and the dispatcher or the or the instance commander requests more units. When you when you have enough people, obviously they should start throwing portable ladders. You don't have to throw portable ladders at at a midnight fire at a hardware store that's closed and it it's two stories, even though it's the store is on the first floor and there's windows on the second floor, you know, but it but it's businesses. But it's midnight and there's no businesses open. Portable ladders sometimes we throw up just for our own ingress and egress, right? Just to get in and out. And sometimes we throw in preparation for people coming out. Or or or sometimes we throw in case one of our guys gets in trouble. There's already ladders up at a at a window on, you know, on each side of the building. So the other thing is everybody treats portable ladders like they're nothing. Just go grab one dragon over here and throw it up. And really there's a lot more to it than that, you know. I mean ladders gotta be properly marked, they gotta be stored somewhere where you can get out easily. Some places now, you know, what was it, twenty years ago now they started putting the ladders up on the bracket, up up out of the way. Up out of the way because because they're in the way, you know. And and now portable ladders are a whole they're a whole operation away from just getting your hand on You gotta start pressing buttons and turning stuff on just to get your hand on a portable ladder now on some rigs, right? Not all of mostly engines, but still. But but really there's a lot more to portable ladders. There's a lot more technical expertise, which you'd never really relate those two words to portable ladders. Technical expertise, but you really gotta know what you're doing with portable ladders. Selecting them, carrying them, butting them, raising them, extending them. You know, there's there's a lot to it. So we actually have a lot to talk about. Well, and you said something I don't wanna I don't wanna pass up because you and I have talked about this before we do it in our classes. So throw ladders, as you said, you mentioned and I'll throw the word proactively for us. You mentioned that before, and I don't want that to escape us too quick because we you you and I have been teaching Rit since we created it a long time ago, the whole May Day, saving your own, get out alive. Throw a ladder to the front. I I used to tell even the Rit team when they're softening the building, here's a chance for your writ or your fast truck. You know what? Throw a ladder to the front. Just set it. Just throw, you're not just smash windows out, just throw set a ladder to the front, set one to the rear. Because when little Johnny Salka, as you say, comes out to that window with fire out over his head. All I have to do is make if if if hell, if I'm lucky, the ladder's right there. If not, I just roll it down or roll it back. Instead of, like you said, you go to the rig, and if it's one of the riggs on the back, you goof, you gotta grab it, you gotta carry right over here while the guy's screaming or hanging out the window. You know, instead of, you know, and and this goes back to the drivers. I know we're gonna talk a little bit about it. I've been a big one on training all the people that drive the rig, especially the pumpers. You know, every driver engineer, every firefighter, every chauffeur should know how to do. The single firefighter carrying raise of an extension ladder. Because if your ass is at that window, you get cut off from your crew, you lose water, whatever it is, and and you know what? And it happens. I don't care how great you think you are to all the sharpshooters on social media that think you have the answers for everything, it's a dangerous job. And eventually, people you make a left, something behind you lights up, it it comes up for this first five, whatever. There's all kinds there's thousand reasons. You come to that window. Having a driver that's hasn't thrown a ladder by him or herself in seven years is not going to help you. You know, you say it before the whole hookup and lookup. You charge it, you got your hydrant, you're good to go. Now you're just watching pressures, right? You're just watching everything. You know, that now there's a lot more. We talked about the oversight, the the downplay of the importance, the the dramatic importance of the driver operator, what they do he or she at an incident, getting you to and from and then pumping. But setting that ladder for it, that's one more thing the drivers should be thinking about is hey, I've got a minute here, I'm all set. I'm just gonna set with right in front of me. Right in front, I'm gonna wal I'm gonna put this at this building right in front of me. Especially the small crews. Staffing is a big you know, small staffing, light staffing pretty much negatively affects everything. And this is another example. When you got a small crew, you've got an engine crew or even a truck crew with a driver, an officer, and one firefly. And and you you and I ask all the time when we do our company officer academy training around the country. We ask all the time, raise your hand if you've got three people on your rig. And and half the audience raises their hand for three people on the rig, right? Then the chauffeur becomes even more important. Now you just like the officer suddenly has to do some firefighter work, right? You're in a small crew, you're gonna stretch a line, and you've got one firefighter and an officer and a chauffeur. You're talking about a firefighter and an officer stretching a hose line. Obviously, obviously the officer becomes the backup firefighter, right? well, the same thing with the chauffeur. If those two guys go in, Now there's nobody left outside. The chauffeur shouldn't be standing there just watching gauges when he could probably at that point press and maybe bring that ladder bracket down and then do whatever else you gotta do and then go back to it, maybe maybe pull it off and and do the one man carry to the edge of the building. Even if he lays it down on the grass right next to the building and runs back to the rig to do something else, he can still moment by moment or incrementally throw a couple of ladders up. And I know some guys that do it all the time. Chauffers that do it all the time. The minute they get the line charged and stabilized and they're operating. They they run away and start doing something else, whether it's suppress a supply line back to a hydrant or pull a ladder up. And those are the good ones you and I have talked about that. So I I watched a video the other day. it was Dash Cam from my car. we had a bunch of thunderstorms come through like we did. We had a good lightning strike. I told you about this. When we get up get our fires here at Lucas, and I'm first in, it's a big another you know, he's million dollar homes, big, big, big attic. We got a good fire to the attic. The guys get after it, and Anthony, the driver for that day, the engineer. I'm watching on the video, John. You know, not only not only is he one of our guys running five inch back to to make his hydrant, he turns around, grabs it as this guy's running on a juice trying to get it. He comes over, grabs half it, and then he runs with it. He's going, Go, go, go. He gets there. Then he comes back and he's doing other things. Then he's ruling this, and then the next thing you know, he's grabbing, he's got a second line. He's stretching a second line dry and charging. It's all these eggs instead of standing there going, Wow, you know, I can't believe the chief hasn't thought about getting a second line stretch. Yeah, you know. And it's the same thing with throwing a ladder. You know, like you said, and I love that. You know what? You drop it down if it's on top. And then you're standing, you go, okay, I another breather, I another second. Now I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna take it. I'm gonna just set it against the building. You know, I don't like where I set it. I'm gonna roll it down that window because that's in the middle of the house. And I'm actually gonna extend it to so that so the tip is right at the bottom of the windowsill. And I'm good, you know, these little incremental things, you know. But it all comes back to what you and I talk about and we live and breathe our lives by about training. If you're not training people how to do that, and if you don't, if you're not planting the mindset, Chief John Salk's not going, hey, Timmy, Timmy, Susanna, come here for a second. This is what I expect. When you're driving, you know, like you said, the hookup and lookup, which is not a compliment, you know, for the drivers is no, you're not hooking up and looking up. You know, there's more to this job than what it is. That the driver operator can make or break your incident at times from where they park the rig to what they do. And And I've told these guys, here, John, it's like an extrication. You're the one running the tool. You're the you're the you're the runner. You're running the tools back and forth. You're doing this, especially with short-handed crews. You know, shorthanded, I three, three people. Yeah, shorthanded compared to the four or five and six member companies. But three people is probably the most popular staffing model out there in the country when you look at what we're running. But that being said, that driver pushing, doing things, but throwing ladders, you know. We watch all these videos. These guys come out and there's a the there's a tip of a ladder right there for them to bail out. You know, thank God we're not seeing too many fires of firefighters having to sadly what happened on and that that was something on you know full first of all, the the the height of what happened on Black Sunday was gonna probably prohibit some of that too, and where they were at. But we're not seeing too many, you know, two story single family doors, guys having to bail and jump out windows. without a ladder there. You know, somebody's thinking, somebody's going, let's throw a ladder here and there. And the good writ officers, the good fast officer going, Hey, Rick, John, do me a favor, grab a ladder, throw it to window. When you're done there, go grab another one, throw it to there. Softening the building isn't just taking burglar bars off and popping the door and doing things. It's throwing a ladder too, right? Absolutely. So expectations, let's talk about heights. We we did this before, because I think that gets guys a lot as they pull up and you know some of these charts that people have made I'm telling you, it's like I I need a rule, you know. I'm saying I need something that tells me on average a 24 hits this, 28 hits this, a 32, you 36, 35, whatever. Chicago has 38 because of a lot of the buildings, they have that little lower level. So they do they have 38 foot, you know, so they had that little bit extra to get where they have to get, you know, because of how their buildings are designed. You know, there's still banger ladder to tormentor poles, which I always said. was one the easiest ones to raise with the right amount of people. If you know how to do and you have the people there, it goes bing, bing, bing, bing, and it's up with no problem. I had a roofing business for a long time. I threw ladders all the time. So do my guys. There's good ways and there's bad ways to throw ladders. You know, knowing fly in, fly out, that, other let me ask you that. I want to ask you that opinion, because I just saw somebody write that. Your thoughts I and I I know I'm jumping off off off the side here, fly in or fly out on extension ladder. I want to hear, because you that's a big It's almost like smoother versus fog, fly in or fly out. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, I've always I've always just assumed and used and understood that you know, when the ladder's in the final position, that the fly should be out, right? That the the the the moving piece of the ladder should be the top piece. But this is another one of those issues, fog or smooth bar. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Now there might be some differences in it, right? But in the end it doesn't matter. It's not like one is right and one is wrong, and one is safe and one is dangerous. That's not true. And the other thing is sometimes in the haste of putting a ladder up, especially if somebody's hanging out of the window already, a lot of times ladders just get thrown up however they get thrown up. You know, the the the one or two firefighters are thrown up, transport it, look at the guy, maybe it's a brother firefighter, maybe it's a woman with a kid. Okay, put the ladder, get around behind all of a sudden they throw it up, it's against the building before they realize that the fly is in. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. obviously You can still adjust that, you can still stand it up and and extend it a little bit and drop it back in. So I I I hate to waste time on stuff that although it's interesting to discuss, sometimes it just doesn't really matter. I I like fly out, that's the way I I was taught most of the places I work. And the important thing is all the other things we're gonna talk about. Selecting the right ladder, make sure it can reach, putting putting the tip in the right position if it's at a window or or at a roof, there's different different positioning rules. Yeah, and guys will talk about well If you put it with the fly in, you've got a little bit more room to work with with the beams instead of it this. But I I you know, I I've always preferred and you know, I guess it's agree to disagree with people, I've always preferred, like you said, to have the fly out. I think, John, before we move on, one of the keys or one of the things that everybody should be concerned with, because I see when I do some of the injury investigations is making sure your locks locked. And I wanna I don't want to pass that up because you know, you're talking about a little thing that goes click, clickety, clickety, click for the rungs. And if you're not if you're not maintaining your ladders, if you're letting grime, if you're in a area where there's a lot of salt and stuff on the roads in winter and stuff like that, if you're not making sure those are lubricated, there are times where that spring doesn't push it back. And that and I've seen those fail before where guys don't make sure that they're both locked. Right. And let me tell you another thing that I've noticed. I want to say recently, but it's really not recently anymore. For years now I've noticed you you you pull all the ladders off a rear mount, an aerial, New York City or anywhere else, and you and you see where the where the ladder racks are, whether they're on edge or whether they're flat, you can look right through it and you can see the roadway. All the way up. All the way up. So it it's it's designed for dirt and shit and and grime and and road salt and rocks to be thrown up and constantly every trip that they drive around. You you might you might go on a hundred runs before you pull a ladder off your ladder truck, right? So for a hundred runs it's collecting dust and dirt. Obviously good trucks Well, I I I talk to my buddy Pete Castellano about twenty seven truck all the time. It wasn't in my battalion, but I worked at twenty seven truck all the time when I was in the one eight. And they pull their ladders off on a regular basis once a week and clean and wash all wash all of Especially, you know, when companies get new guys, new members or new probies or new people out of graduating classes. It's a great opportunity to every Sunday morning. Pull the ladders out, wash down, clean hose down, brush with s with soap and water, let dry a little bit and throw back in there. Now at least you're staying ahead of Those, you know, and and the rollers and the and the and the and the the slides that the ladders are on. Everything is easier when the ladders are maintained right and lubricated right. Well and and some of them that like the ladder trucks they have the pockets that help keep the grime off. I've been in places we've pulled those off and the top third or half of the ladder is black filthy because they haven't pulled even it even gets dirty inside there. You may not get that kind of grime, but you get everything else that comes up because it it's not seal-proof. So Maintaining your ladders is huge. Making sure the locks are good. Making sure your howers are good. But let's talk heights. Let's talk estimating, John. you know, a and I I I I guess Well before we get into that, this is related to height, related to height. You gotta mark your ladders. Your ladders gotta be properly marked. Some places mark them very haphazardly. Magic marker, magic marker marking on the end of the ladder. It's nonsense. Go get the proper kind of, you know, either stick on letters or whatever they are. I always like the fluorescent ones. You get these little fluorescent ones, reflective ones. You're reflective. You go back there in the in the middle of the night to the rig, there's n there there might not be lights shining on the back of the rig. Now you're trying to figure out where's your flashlight? Which what light do we you know, what ladder do we have here? The the ladder should be number one properly marked at the butt end, because the butt end is is the part that's sticking out of the back, right? And they should be and they should be positioned. So people mark and then they put the beam down and the beam down is where it's marked and and they're underneath. It doesn't help. I was just gonna say, yeah, where do you see with the letters? They're on the side of the beam instead of what I'm I'm not standing up looking down at him sometimes. You show me it was Brian, your son, who's in Goose Creek now. Is either Goose Creek or maybe Witch Toe is on there? The whole back, the whole back of the the the rig with all the ladders, the ladder was like all you were looking at was numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers. You knew exactly what length ladder you were grabbing when you put your hand, you didn't even have your hand on it yet, you could see it. So if you're trying to figure out, okay, second floor window, third floor window, extension, which size? Well, that's nice that you're thinking that. But now when you get back to the to the rig to grab the right ladder, there's no markings on them. Or they're or they're hidden, or they're not, or they're or they're falling, they're peeling off and not, you know, not not staying on there. So that's important. Well, so I guess the the the the the message to the troops out there, you know, there's all different sized ladders, everybody's got different makeups on your rigs. Make sure you know what your working length is versus the actual length of the ladder, you know, because is your 28 at 28, or is it 28 that does 24? Is your 35 at 35 or Is it a third is your is your 28 longer than you know? I'm just saying, actually take it out, set it up, and and here's this goes back to what you say all the time. You know where I'm going with this. The first time, and I'm gonna I'm gonna add something. You always say the first time you're in a burning building, should or you know the first time in it, it shouldn't be you should you should already pre-plant it. That should be the first time you're in the building, it's on fire, is what you say. I'll say this I'll add to that, John, how you say that. The first time, you know. should you should already pre-plan that building. Well, the first time you're outside set ladders shouldn't be the first time you're doing that either. It you should already have an idea which ladders work where, you know, know your district, know your buildings, go, hey, John, we've got those, we got those build remember they got the little, the little, they they they got the little half basements that add like this in Chicago. Those autos cities have that extra half a floor. Wait a minute, I'm not so I'm normally I have a two story, two and a half story, but no, I actually have like a two and a half plus another half story. I'm not gonna make that. The Brownstar in Brooklyn, right? They got that little that little set down courtyard, you know, and then the steps going up to what looks like the second floor, but it's really not a full second floor. But of course you got that that that basement level that's sort of a half a flight, you know. Yeah, knowing where your overhead wires are, knowing where your fences are, knowing how you're gonna get, you know. The i i like you said, the first time you should be facing those obstacles, the first time you should I should facing them is should be untrue. Yeah, you sure went, Okay, guys, if we ever come to this block, look at all these freaking cars, look at those wires, look what we're doing, make sure you look it up, right? We always talk about with the towers and the cameras, look up and live, right? Look up and live before you stick a ladder up into something. You know, I've I've had guys I remember I remember being commercial building. And being on the tip of the ladder and going, W w w what what what's what's going on? And I didn't realize that it a wire electrical wire was charging the gutters around the side of the building. I see it fell into it. And I wasn't getting like zap zap, but I'm like, you know, I'll never forget that. It was in Bridgeville. We had like a little mini warehouse going. Especially commercial buildings. Right off the bat, you should be even more careful of that in commercial buildings. Not not that a residential electrical supply couldn't kill you. But commercial buildings often have higher voltage, more wires, you know and if you hit them, even less of a chance of survival. Yeah. So so guys know about your ladders. First of all, I I loved I I'll be honest with you, I fell in love with the little giant ladder. I used to be an attic ladder guy getting inside and getting these little nooks and crannies. I'm like, a lot of those, those little giant ladders, they they fold up click, click, click, and y I mean, you open them up and you get you can carry them inside without bumping into walls and doing stuff, get up there and then open them up, put them up there. They're little bit wider, even the bottom's a little bit. So, you know, you're not doing this up in there. So if you're not taking the ladders off your rigs, if you're not training with them, you know, does my heart good C shift here as a newer firefighter, Jacob. He's he's he's almost done with everything. Jacob Raybury's a great young firefighter, John. You meet him, you'll love him. good kid, not a whole lot of talking, just listens. And Captain Sean Peterson, I turned a corner, all his guys are out there throwing ladders with him on a side of the building, you know. Actually, like some guys, no, we have to you know, you're gonna take the ladder off the rig, and they're throwing ladders, and I'm like, I it just you know, any training makes my heart feel good. But when I saw that, especially, you know, when you see some guys carrying ladders, like it looks like the you we talk about guys drag hose off the pumper like the first time they touched it. You watch them carry a ladder, I'm like, When's the last time they actually carried that thing or what they did? So estimating your heights, knowing your buildings, maintaining your ladders, cleaning your ladders. Being proactive with how you set them, engineers knowing this every firefighter basically, knowing how to do the single firefighter throw and what to do. You know what? You you talked about before, and I don't want to pass up. We always talk about Wichita, Kansas, our buddy Sandy Hittle and the great group there at Wichita. I tell that story all the time, and I was kind of surprised because you and I always talk about how we learn stuff every day. You and I were like, we learned you, we've been doing this a long time, and we learned stuff. And you you called me from Wichita, Kansas, go, I just saw something I've never seen before. And and you sent me pictures. Now, all my roof ladders when I was a roofer a long time ago had what you were looking at. I already I already had that because I did it because and I I want you to explain real quick before I get too far ahead. I already had my roofing ladders like that because it was easier for me when I was roofing to not do what you're gonna talk about. So talk about what you saw on the back of their ladders with their with their roof ladders, the butt ends of the hooks. Yeah. Very interesting. And the guy was very proud of it showing me. so so they got these roof ladders, you know, different dimension size roof ladders obviously, but they got the hooks on the folding hooks, right? And so you get the folding hooks at the top of the ladder, and then you got the butt at the bottom of the ladder, and and they had at both ends. He pulled all he pulled the whole ladder out and said, Check this out, Chief. Both ends of the ladder were butts. There was not a round there there was not a rounded edge at the top. Both ends had had the butt, the feet, and both ends had the folding hooks as well. So now you can pull that ladder out. You can throw any you can throw either side down and put the other side up and and you're ready to go. It's not more importantly, when you when you open up the hooks, which of course if you're gonna use a hook ladder as a roof ladder, up up over the peak, you you open up the hooks before you go up. But you you you open up the hooks, then you put the ladder up and you and you you don't try and open up the hooks up on top of the roof when you stand on a on a peak roof, right? So you get up there, you hook the ladder. Now you climb up there and you're doing something, and for some reason you decide, you know what? We better jump over the other side of the peak and and cut over here. But now your ladder's on this side. Well instead of dragging a whole ladder up and turning it around to put the hooks, now you can f close those hooks, slide the ladder up, just slide it right up until more of the ladder comes over the peak than than isn't over the peak yet. It's gonna drop down, and as you'd slide it down, the other end of the ladder is gonna now be in your hand, and now you open up the hooks at the other end and you hook the ladder right there. No spinning the ladder around on the roof, knocking guys off the roof or losing your balance while doing that. What a great idea. And he yeah, you can get this done from the factory and he said, We've been doing it for years and it was a great idea. Another thing they did with their ladders there in Wichita was they have tools attached to the ladders. You know? So you have an extension ladder with a with a tool attached at the top of it, like a a six foot metal hook with good good secure brackets at the top, but it's attached. So now you put that ladder up, you climb to the top of the ladder, sort of like sort of like we do with area ladders with that have an axe or a hook tip, you know, secured at the at the the the tip of the fly section. So an another great idea on portable ladder that you can make, especially again for the light staffing, or if you want to view it as a safety issue, you don't have to climb the ladder carrying a hook. You know, you can just get up there, unhook, unhook the look the hook from the brackets, and then get up onto the roof and do what you gotta do. And then when you said that I'm like and I was like first of all, I'm always impressed with the fact that, and I'm I'm I'll pick on you, you're so willing to admit You don't know everything. We talk about time. Neither one of us are perfect people. We're not knowing all. So we learn shit every day about this job. You were so excited to call me about that. I'll never forget that. And I'm go, and I'm thinking, go, yeah, I've been doing it for a while. But there are a lot of departments that do that. But lot of them, a lot of them say, Yeah, we've been doing that for years, but a lot of them have it. And I'm like, here you go, you're spec in your rigs. If you're gonna order a ladder, there you go. Think about that. And and like you said, I love that idea. So so for our for readers, they're not they're not. They're not voiding warranties or drilling into the fly section of their extension eye. They take a they take a little like a hose clamp and they clamp an eye bolt. They don't drill through nothing, just on the on the fly section rug. And then like you said, John, they slide the roof hook or the FTY roof hook or halgen hook through there. At the top, they have a leather strap that's affixed to it with a little pocket that the the hook lays in. And like you said, you go up the ladder with your axe or whatever you're doing, you go up, boop, just like you did on your ladder truck. You grab it and off you go. No manufacturer voided, nothing, whatever. If you guys want to see the the pictures are out there, if not, contact Witchitaw Keynes. I know a lot of fire departments do that, but but we're we're just you know they're one of our favorites. Or Google it or go to Chat GPT or whatever, you'll probably get pictures of it. Exact exactly. And it and it, you know, it works out marvelous. But those are guys, again, if you're into the job, I'll tell you this, John. You you said this if if if before we talk about this, if you're into the job, those ideas come to you like that. People who are into the job figure out how to do this shit. People who are into the job, not shortcuts. We don't like shortcuts. I like the phrase, like you said. I don't like the, I don't like saying easier, but I like instead of shortcuts or easier, more efficiently. There are guys that are into the job that find more efficient and quicker ways. All right. Well, I remember when I got my Nexus pass up in the up in Detroit, I had to go meet with the Canadian Boards of Customs people and the agent, she goes, So why do you want to get Nexus pass? You know, to get in out of can. I said, well, I want to make it easier. She goes to go to the board. She goes, Well, please don't say easier. How about how about quicker? I go, okay, quicker. So I got corrected by by a border agent, but quicker, more efficient. The guys and gals who are into the job seem to come up with these ideas. They're the ones that go, let me go chief G Soccer, let me show you what I did. And they're proud to show you a little thing they've done to make it that much better. You know, to make it that much quicker, much more efficient with what you're doing stuff. And and again, some places you go, you look at the pumper. It goes back to that guy that asked me to do the show him how to do one host stretch. They pull the cross lay off and a Coca-Cola a tree branch came off the Coca-Cola can, a Lumuma can. I'm like, and they all laughing. sorry, Chief. We you know, that must have been up for the football team. We gave them a ride on the engine during homecoming. This was March. Homecoming's like in September, October. I you you haven't you haven't taken that cross lay off since October, September. Or even been up on top of the pumper, there's a co can up there, these kids are drinking pot. I'm just saying, the one those guys and gals that are in the job seem to come up with these ideas the best. You know what I'm saying? For sure. What else about anything else before we close things out about portable ladders? God, a million a million more things, obviously. But you know, and and there's a obviously the the best and the safest and probably the most efficient way to throw a portable ladder is with two people. But a lot of like we talked about, the chauffeurs have been able to do it not just the chauffeurs. The outside vent firefighter, a truck firefighter that's going around to the rear to do some ventilation or maybe do a rescue or a search. He should be able to he should be able to bop around the back with a single with a ladder by himself and get that ladder up. Whether you butt it against a bush, whether you butt it against a fence, or butt it right against the corner of the building and slap it up there and then and then pull and then pull the butt back out and and position it properly, easily positioned. People start coming up with math problems for positioning the ladder for the climbing angle. All you do is stand at the bottom of the ladder with your toes against the the butt. Or you can stand on the bottom rung, jump on that if you want, and just put your hands out and your hands should just grab the nearest rung, you know, right in front of you. That that that's about right. Again, you know, s somebody with a degree in astrophysicist will probably tell you there's an exact best climbing angle and there might be, but as long as it's familiar and comfortable to you, that that works well. Well, there's a thousand videos out there, like you said, of guys you know, w working at a rapid pace, if you will, with the ladder. Coming around the back of the building by themselves, at the academies, at the fire, and you know, their burn buildings and stuff. You know, concrete's concrete, like you said, find a corner of the building, find a curb, find something. If you're looking at, if you're in a lawn, as you're walking, I used to do it when I was a rougher. You take it and you just, as you're coming up, you drive it into the ground. You just kind of stick it, spin it, you know. And then again, anytime you're setting it in dirt or ground when you get up there, one of the first things you do is get on that first rung and give a little, give a little, you don't want to be. climbing it and the right hand side is in a little bit softer ground your ladder's doing this or whatever back and forth. Make sure when you set it, you get on there, spread your feet, and just give it you you set it, boom, you jump up in the first round, you give it a little pop and make sure you're set and that it's not going to tilt one way or the other. That way you're good there. Another thing you mentioned before about moving a ladder, you throw a portable ladder up on the side of a house that's got three windows and and you're between the first and the second window or you put it at the middle window. Wherever it is you put it. And suddenly you need it somewhere else. You see some guy trying to slide the ladder over and all you gotta do is roll it, roll it, roll it. Just roll it over and then roll it again and roll it again, you lose nothing. You lose no height, you lose no angle, you lose nothing. If the the ladder stays perfect, you're just moving it horizontally to the left or the right. Sometimes you have to adjust a little bit when you get to the next window to make it right in the middle. But again, a very easy thing to do that if if you weren't taught that or shown that or seen that yourself, you might not do it. You might you might be trying to struggle the hard way. Exactly. And and as we finish things up here, John, I want to bring up what you said is there there's there's we and I said it to even start your show. If we could talk for eight hours about ladders and probably not cover everything about portable ladders, you know, what we're basically talking about here, folks, is it comes down to training and awareness. Be aware of your ladders, your ladder height, your ladder, you the lengths, how they work, how to maintain them, you know, and then you have to take them off your rig and you have to throw them. You have to work them. You know, make sure your locks are locking, everything's good, your halyards are good, everything's working in that ladder. You know, we John and I say all the time, it's not a big deal till it's a big deal. And you don't want to be like testing ladders, if you will. And I you know I mean by testing when you're at a fire. Well, I you know, I didn't know this didn't work right, or the one lock locked, but the other one did lock. That's the thing that happens. You see one lock and the other one doesn't. You know, making sure that your your ladders are maintained, that they're clean. Take the time, you know. Make sure you know, you know, we said your engineer a single firefighter raises, whether it's the driver, the chauffeur that knows how to do it. Like John said, when you have time, set a ladder. And you could do it incrementally. Bring it down and the next thing you know, you set it. You go back over there, you raise it. And keeping those ladders clean and efficient and well, well lubricated. I'm not saying they should be shiny, but they should be noticeably clean. You should that that should be a product thing. You you wouldn't drive a rig around that looks like a piece of crap that's got dirt and dents in it and scratches and mud. mud behind the wheels. Well, the same thing for portable ladders. This is the fire department. You're you're not some roofing company that that putting some more black tar on their roof and you got these shiting up old ladders that got old tar on them. They don't care. They there's no pride factor there. They're they're working guys trying to do roof work. But where the fire department they they sh w people should notice when the fire department ladder is up. Wow, look how clean those ladders are. Look how look how nice they look. And the fact that a ladder looks clean means there's been It's been cleaned, it's been looked at, it's been inspected, it's been maintained, which means it's gonna work better. There's gonna be no delay. No delay pulling out halyot or pulling out extension that fly section up when somebody needs to be helped because it's full of gr grit and grime and stuff like that. So paint off efficiently. Exactly. Make sure you paint or you something affix to the bottom numbers wise so you can see how long the ladder is before you pull it off. Not necessarily you can have mounted you can have it labeled on the beam as well. That's great too. They come that way from the manufacturer remote, you know. But somewhere where you look at that buttend, you can tell what you're grabbing. The other thing too is making sure you have a little reflective piece of tape where you're putting your locks, your locks on the side. When you go to set the ladder, you're not going, move it down one. it's down here. Is this one set here? Well, the roof ladder is out to, you know, I see guys all the time, you know, if you put your tape on the side of the ladder that faces out, you'll never put it in backwards. Like, you know, you put it in with the fly section in first on like the engine. So you you have the bed that's bigger. Now you can put your roof ladder on there. If you're looking for for look, if you're a newer firefighter, if you're looking for those pieces of tape, you already know you're setting up there right and you're putting it where the locks are without doing this and moving it down and moving it around. Some people also on the beams, on the top edge of the beams on an extension ladder, they got a big wide painted stripe marked on both on both sections. So when you're raising the fly, when it gets all the way up, when it gets to the max fly height. Those two lines lined up. Those two paint sections line up. So when the thing is bedded, the base section has a stripe all the way at the top and the fly section has a stripe all the way at the bottom. But as you raise the fly, those two things when they're next to each other, that's where you lock it in right there. Sometimes people go further and they realize, it can't go further. Now I gotta lower it back down again. And what does it do? It wastes time. So if you if you have that marked, you click, click, click, click, click. When they're next to each other, that's it. That's the last click. Now you can let it go and then And the and the extension ladder is now at its maximum extension. And if you work with them a lot, you train with them a lot, just like your air pack, you should know before your buzzer is gonna buzz, your viber alert, before you even see the heads up display, before you see that, because you know, all right, I got about five more minutes, I know what's happening, because I know how much air I breathe. You do the same thing. In the middle of the night, it's dark, you're smoky, you're clicking, you know, I got one more, two more. you know what? I got one more. Blick, and there it is. It comes down to knowing your equipment. Sit around the kitchen table, guys, have those conversations. If you're a company officer, grab a couple of cars, say out guys, hey, I want to talk real quick. Over there, we're just on XYZ Street on the EMS call. Anybody look at the buildings? All right. What talk to me how you set a ladder there? Which ladder would you grab and would and give me to the second window. Give me the second floor window. Where would you set it? What would you do? Let's talk about you got fire out the first floor or you had the potential for fire out of first floor window. Where would you want to set your ladder for trying to get to the roof? All these things. We can talk about we you and I talk about our tactics classes that have to be done. There's a there's thousands of videos out there, guys. There's thousands of videos that go out there. You know, there's tons of articles and in and fire engineering that'll help you know your ladders. It's not a big deal to it's a big deal. Like I said, John and I could spend eight hours on all the steps on how to raise the lower ladders. We're basically doing a rah-rah speech. Get to know your stuff, know what you're doing, have the have the under maintain them. Train on you know, maintain, train on and know how to, you know, how to do where you're gonna do it and then make it all come to work later on. Instead of the first time it's like I touch this ladder. So any any closing thoughts, buddy? That's it. That's it. Keep get your hands on the portable ladders as as often as you can. We train a lot on a lot of other stuff and sometimes portable ladders get ignored. So make a conscious effort to do that. Perfect, perfect. email if they want to get a hold of you. Chief John Salta at gmail.com. And I'm Chief Lasky at gmail.com. And I always say this if you're ever down in the Dallas Fourth Metroplex, come on over to Lucas, Texas. Great fire department, great people. The door's always open. Coffee pot's always on. Come on by for a visit. you can catch these shows. our show, you know, these podcasts, fire engineering does so many great podcasts. Our hump day hangouts at John, Chief Thompson, Chief Burt, we have on the third Wednesday every month. A lot of different things, some great topics. I'm telling you, you can wear yourself out with all the wonderful things on the website you're on right now, fireengine.com with all different things from gems, firefighter nation, the fire apparatus and equipment. Keep in mind the magazine fire apparatus emergency equipment is not just about fire trucks. It's everything you put in them and where you park them, everything in the firehouse. It's everything inside the firehouse, including that fire engine, all kinds of stuff in that magazine. So We'll see you next time. We never end any of our shows without one important message. That is, all right, please keep the men and women in our in our armed forces your thoughts and prayers. And remember this always. Never forgetting means just that. Never forgetting. Be safe. God bless you. We'll see you next time.