Marina Psaros: That's Dr. Erica Woolsey. She's a National Geographic Explorer, a marine scientist, and the founder of The Hydrus, a nonprofit that creates virtual reality experiences to connect people to the ocean. I wanted to have Erica on because she's a leader in this community of people that are experimenting with how we can use emerging tech like augmented reality and virtual reality solve problems in actual reality, so in the real world. Okay, as we emerge from our deep dive with Erica, do you see what I did there? I'll just mention that the reef sounds you heard today are from the British Natural History Museum, and this episode was produced by me, Marina Psaros. Thanks for listening. Till next time. After my conversation with Erica, I went down a rabbit hole of reef bioacoustic science and Dr. Rohan Booker's Reef Song Project is completely awesome and I'm gonna put a link to it into the show notes so that you too can learn what baby fish like to listen to and how a healthy reef literally calls those babies home. Okay, back to Erica. You lived for years in Australia working as a dive master at Sydney Harbor and then getting a PhD at James Cook University. Were you already working in immersive tech like augmented reality or virtual reality you were in your PhD program? Welcome to Earthworks, where artists and makers share how they're protecting the spaces and the species they love. So let's do it. Here's my conversation with Erica, starting with her answer to my question, when did she realize that she wasn't just a scientist or just an artist?
Erika Woolsey: everyone starts out as a scientist and as an artist. I see it in my toddler, Delta. She explores the world around her. She asks questions and she always wants to make things because both science and artistic expression are grounded in curiosity and creativity. feel like... I was always supported in these interests. ⁓ had a huge collection of art supplies as a kid and my parents constantly took me outdoors. And I think the natural world is such a perfect combination of art and science. Like the redwood trees and kelp forest here in Northern California remain this incredible source of inspiration and beauty and like an informal laboratory for me.
Marina Psaros: Yes.
Erika Woolsey: I I've always been a scientist and an artist in my own way. I wasn't, but another PhD student and I were really interested in ⁓ science into public understanding that we actually started ⁓ called the Science and Culture Club. ⁓ so we were always interested in using artistic expressions as a way to communicate our research. ⁓ and we even had to organize these events on science communication. So I was always interested in trying new tools for talking about science. And I had a lot of like-minded young scientists with me on that journey. And it wasn't until 2016 that I started playing with Google Cardboards, which were such a fabulous tool. I wish they were still supported.
Marina Psaros: I remember those, yes. Yeah.
Erika Woolsey: that was just game changing for me because I had been talking about ocean science for many years at that point and teaching it and it was incredible the effect just handing over this device for someone to put on their face and it's just my phone in it and they can look around and see an underwater scene that I and my team had collected and The level of curiosity and excitement and just engagement was like no other tool I'd used save for actually diving with people. So when people come out of a headset, a VR headset, it reminds me a lot of when people would come out of take off their dive mask after surfacing from a dive and you'd float on the surface with your buddy and just talk about what you saw.
Marina Psaros: I'm ready.
Erika Woolsey: And that's what it felt like. It's felt like, cause in a lot of the virtual dives I've created, I'm your dive buddy. So when people come out of the headset, we can just talk like we're friends already, even though I may never have spoken to them before and talk about this shared experience.
Marina Psaros: Yeah. ⁓ learned to dive in the Monterey Bay and ⁓ I remember the very time I down, that feeling of being such a different world. ⁓ And I'd never actually realized being in a VR headset is similar to that feeling. But now that you've mentioned it, I've absolutely that experience. ⁓
Erika Woolsey: Ugh. Hmm. I learned to dive in Monterey Bay too. And I'm impressed that you felt so comfortable so fast, it sounds like. I remember ⁓ being a bit a flailer on my first dives. ⁓
Marina Psaros: Really? Ha! Well, we had like fairly low swell and I also had a giant crush on the dive instructor. So,
Erika Woolsey: Mmm. ⁓ yeah, that'll get you up to speed real fast.
Marina Psaros: take me on of these virtual dives. What happens from ⁓ the minute you in that headset?
Erika Woolsey: Mmm. So ⁓ example I want to give for a virtual dive ⁓ from a project ⁓ conducted with the organization of Eastern Caribbean states. ⁓ the government of the Eastern Caribbean. And together we created this virtual dive where ⁓ move down a beach in like St. Lucia in Eastern Caribbean ⁓ ⁓ As you move along the beach, you see a baby sea turtle walking with you and moving into the water and you follow them. And then you submerge beneath the surface and you follow this baby turtle through seagrass and then through a healthy thriving coral reef, colors of blues and pinks around you, schools of fish. And then you across a degraded reef. less colorful, ⁓ less noisy, fewer fish, and you see a ⁓ anchor dragging along a coral reef and you look up and you see a boat. There's ⁓ trash, plastic pollution for instance, on the reef. There's sediment smothering the corals. And then you go over a drop-off. meaning the sea floor and the reef just sort of falls beneath you along a wall and you just go out into the blue and you start to see some charismatic megafauna like rays and dolphins and then a humpback whale swims by you to the point where you can look into its eye and then you emerge and you bring your head above water and you look back and see the island
Marina Psaros: Mm-hmm
Erika Woolsey: that you will be ⁓ emerging onto. so throughout all of this, there's music, there's sound, there's even narration ⁓ And the messaging is all about the blue economy and protecting ⁓ sea life within the jurisdictions ⁓ ⁓ preventing pollution so that we can maintain healthy ocean ecosystems for everybody's enjoyment and for our own well-being. So it was designed as a way to recreate the feeling of going on a real dive and feeling an emotional connection to a place most people can't go, even if they live right by the water in an island nation. What's really fun when we design these experiences at the Hydrus, which is the nonprofit I run, is we always follow a similar model where it's like a dive profile. you ⁓ start on land, ⁓ you immerse yourself, ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ learn about ⁓ maybe some of the ocean challenges that are being faced, you explore and maybe ⁓ the ⁓ interactions. ⁓ And then you ascend with a really positive experience and message of hope or a call to action. And quite often there's a safety stop. So for those who may not be divers that are listening, in the safety you ⁓ are, stopping for three minutes at about 15 feet depth to prevent ⁓ the bends ⁓ or with inert nitrogen in your body. ⁓ And these experiences that sort of used as a reflection point to think about what you just saw. And so much learning happens in reflection ⁓ and so ⁓ you emerge and you bring lessons and knowledge back to land. that's been the framework that we've used at the Hydras for many years. ⁓ And whether it's our hands-on learning kits that we developed with National Geographic or any of our virtual dive experiences, or even the talks I give at National Geographic, it always follows what it be like to actually dive.
Marina Psaros: the hydras is a ⁓ tool that people can in the classroom or on their own, but the NatGeo ⁓ talks, you take ⁓ a room full of people on a virtual dive with you, ⁓
Erika Woolsey: so 2019, ⁓ I the incredible privilege ⁓ being one the explorers to ⁓ lead over ⁓ people on virtual because they had basically VR headsets to synchronize with each other. ⁓ And so what everyone saw in the headset was same. So it was this mass group experience. And I live narrated from stage in Grosvenor Auditorium in Washington, DC. And had four short dives. ⁓ And between the dives, took off the headsets, like you would take off a dive mask. And we had what ⁓ I would call a interval, ⁓ which is another thing do in real diving. ⁓ And that's a chance talk and reflect and ask questions and maybe explain something you saw and then do a dive briefing for the next dive. ⁓ It was just such a fun experience. I had never seen anything like it. And I think prior to that, I'd heard a lot of conversation about virtual reality or a digital immersive experiences can be really isolating, but I saw it as an incredible social shared experience. And what was really cool is there were researchers on site and we did multiple shows and we also did a little bit of AB testing where We had an audience of students that had the VR experience just like all the others, but then an audience of students who didn't have the VR experience. So they still got the same narration from me. They also had a two-dimensional version of the virtual dives on the big screen behind me, but they didn't have the VR And what was so obvious is that the questions were so different. ⁓ The students that just had the two dimensional version of the dive experience on the screen, their questions were all about me. So something very typical is people ask, what's your favorite fish? Have you ever dived with sharks? How much money does the marine biologist make? That kind of stuff. Yeah, so questions to the scientist on stage. But what was really cool for the VR students
Marina Psaros: Key question. Yeah. Yeah.
Erika Woolsey: is that their questions were all about what they saw. They became the scientists. So I'll never forget this young girl asked, I could see inside the manta rays mouth and I couldn't, I didn't see any organs where it's organs. It looked empty. And I just remember being blown away and other students I've, you know, I've taken the show on the road to libraries and museums and universities with the synchronized dive system and
Marina Psaros: Yeah.
Erika Woolsey: ⁓ And that perspective shift from being sort of passive listener into an active participant is huge ⁓ for experiential learning and curiosity. And I think one of the best ways ⁓ you can measure impact the types ⁓ of questions that you ⁓ That's one of the Nat Geo talks that I've been giving. But in addition, I'm actually on tour right now with National Geographic Live, where I go to symphony halls across the country and speak to thousands of people at a time for 90 minutes about the Great Barrier Reef. And so it's this really cool multimedia experience that uses my own footage, footage from the hydrus, but is also.
Marina Psaros: Wow.
Erika Woolsey: very rich with national geographic content. So it's a huge privilege to tell the story of my science and ocean science in general ⁓ with these incredible tools. ⁓ And I've been on that tour for, gosh, two or three years now, ⁓ stopping to have a baby along the way. And there isn't any VR involved. ⁓ They're ⁓ referred to as ⁓ live documentaries. So while very media rich very immersive in other ways, ⁓ for instance, ⁓ at one point we turn lights down the theater and play whale song, right? ⁓ So there are multiple ways to be immersive using immersive virtual reality.
Marina Psaros: I love hear a response or a reaction from someone that's surprised you or that's really stuck with you.
Erika Woolsey: Hmm. I've ⁓ some trends ⁓ like I'd say that most of the people who come up to me afterwards or I talk to as soon as they take off the headset, they just have this look of wonder on their face. Like I said, it reminds me so much of an actual dive mask being taken off. And for those people that are divers or swimmers and snorkelers, ⁓ they might say something like, wow, that felt just like the real thing. ⁓
Marina Psaros: Ha!
Erika Woolsey: Or if they aren't divers, they might say something like, ⁓ wow, that makes me really want to go swimming or go diving. ⁓ Or I used to be afraid of sharks, but I was just swimming with reef sharks and I didn't feel scared. So maybe it's something I can do. Or I have a lot of especially older people or people with newer disabilities who say that they used to dive and wish they could again. or people who never will and never got the chance, but they say that Even if wasn't real, it felt ⁓ real in a lot of ways because this technology can feelings of presence, like you're actually in a different place and you're actually underwater.
Marina Psaros: Yeah. ⁓ I know that you this, for the benefit of those who may not be up on all their marine science, ⁓ it's ⁓ come out recently that healthy reefs very loud places. So like snapping shrimp and ⁓ grunting fish and just this whole cacophony. And degraded reefs are quiet, ⁓ I'm going to play some sounds that I think you will And I would love to hear your reactions ⁓ the sounds themselves what you might know about this since you probably know the researchers who are doing the research. it's be like a game show. We can see if you know what sound is. ⁓ All right, let me play it.
Erika Woolsey: I love it. It sounds like static, doesn't it?
Marina Psaros: I'm gonna stop it there. I would... It does. And there's also like, a farting sound in there. So tell me what it is we're listening to
Erika Woolsey: ⁓ I know the location. also don't have any data on what was actually IDed in the location, ⁓ but can tell you that a lot of the snap, crackle, pop sounds that you hear ⁓ on healthy wreath ⁓ come bioerotors. So ⁓ things sea urchins scraping algae off of hard surfaces or fish like parrotfish chomping on coral. ⁓ I think also in that footage, there were a lot of shrimps just sort of snapping my colleague, Dr. Rohan Booker from the Australian Institute of Marine Science, ⁓ this really cool project called Reef Song. And he's really interested in how these audio recordings, ⁓ can explain the important interactions between corals and fish. ⁓ healthy corals mean healthy fish and ⁓ fish mean healthy corals There are lot of coral reef fish that will actually eat algae off of corals, so keep them clean and healthy so that they can continue to grow and don't get smothered. ⁓ And so these interactions between different trophic levels, between different life forms is becoming ⁓ disentangled the more research we conduct.
Marina Psaros: Okay, I'm curious. ⁓ oftentimes people will have an expertise problem where you know that you to simplify because you're overwhelming people but your urge is to make sure that it's perfectly accurate. What do you do? How do you decide?
Erika Woolsey: Yeah, I know. ⁓ in the first VR film I created called Immersed, ⁓ and I had an team at the Hydros to do this. ⁓ Like it was so to make Marina. So we just wanted to put everything in this nine minute virtual dive. So ⁓ we had infographics, we animation, we had ⁓ narration ⁓ and music and...
Marina Psaros: Hmm.
Erika Woolsey: I think it worked really well. On one hand, it was very balanced, but also some of the feedback we received is like, there was a lot going on. I need to go back in and see, kind of focus on different things each time, which on one way, it actually is kind of cool where it invites repeat viewing because you might have missed something or it was overwhelming. And ⁓ that be ⁓ compared to real diving. Cause I know anytime I've dived on a new site, I like to just do kind of a run through and explore.
Marina Psaros: Mm-hmm.
Erika Woolsey: before coming back and looking at specific things. But I also think that the motivation for putting so many things in there was driven by how valuable that real estate was in terms of time. And yeah, think I would ⁓ slow things down. I also wouldn't try to list facts because VR is especially powerful for
Marina Psaros: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Erika Woolsey: affect and emotional connection and presence ⁓ and so much for like ⁓ knowledge consolidation so, yeah, I think building an on-ramp or an off-ramp or as I've been calling it, like a dive briefing and debrief ⁓ outside of the actual experience ⁓ makes a much more effective ⁓ holistic approach.
Marina Psaros: Mm. So you've been in academia. You've been in the nonprofit world, both, as a Nat Geo explorer and also the Hydrus itself is a non-profit. And then you've had at least one foot in the tech world through the Hydrus these really different cultures. ⁓ And ⁓ of them have been particularly welcoming to women ⁓ historically.
Erika Woolsey: Mm-hmm. Hmm.
Marina Psaros: what's it like being ⁓ often the only woman in the room?
Erika Woolsey: Well, mean, let's be honest. What place is woman friendly? mean, all of the data I see, which is the number of women leading companies, the number of women in office, number of women with tenure, we're nowhere near equity. And that's for a lot of reasons. And sometimes it's overt harassment or violence. ⁓ Sometimes it's unconscious bias. ⁓
Marina Psaros: Ouch, yeah.
Erika Woolsey: But yeah, it's still a problem and it really persists over generations. It changes, obviously. A lot of those numbers I reference in terms of women representation is increasing. In fact, it was really cool during my PhD, my program actually was about 50 % women. ⁓ But then of course, as you looked ahead in your department, you see like,
Marina Psaros: Wow.
Erika Woolsey: fewer women in postdoc positions, fewer women in assistant professor positions. And then I think I can think of one or two female tenured professors. ⁓ you know, there are a lot of reasons that leave these roles. And sometimes it's, you know, ⁓ by choice. ⁓ Other times it's ⁓ kind of just burnout or being forced out and like
Marina Psaros: Yeah.
Erika Woolsey: lack of childcare or unpaid domestic labor. It's just so many factors. it's not necessarily about what women need to do differently. that's possibly part of it in terms of like individual actions, ⁓ you know, the sort of lean in mentality, but it's about how do we improve systems? How do we engage ⁓ men ⁓ in building systems that help everybody?
Marina Psaros: Mm-hmm.
Erika Woolsey: I, you can tell, I have ⁓ a lot of, lot of frustrations and I see, ⁓ some very, ⁓ putting things every day in, ⁓ in how women general are treated or how I'm specifically treated. ⁓ but I've also incredible male mentors and role models who are just wonderful people. ⁓ And I've learned so much from, and also have, ⁓ a lot of female colleagues that are going strong that ⁓ I just admire so much. And so I focus on what's working as much as I can. support women on a personal level. But I also think a lot of things need to change. ⁓ And know, I'm a new mom. And ⁓ I'm very lucky to have an incredibly supportive husband and he's just ⁓ the best. I, yeah, ⁓ I have so much be thankful for, but really, really, really hard. And I think that ⁓ it'd be very easy ⁓ for me to leave any of the things I'm doing right now ⁓ ⁓ of all these extra responsibilities. This isn't the case for me, but in most heterosexual relationships, women are expected to take the majority of the childcare or household tasks, even if they work as much as their partners. I think it starts with individual action and fathers taking on more responsibilities in the home so that ⁓ their partners and the mothers can ⁓ be part of the world.
Marina Psaros: Hmm. I some parallels recently you drew between and coral reef resilience. ⁓ I would just love to hear you talk a bit about that.
Erika Woolsey: Hehehehehe Yeah, so this reflection started when I was pregnant with my first child, ⁓ And ⁓ had amazing opportunity ⁓ to ⁓ this Geographic live show and go on tour, ⁓ the tour doing right now. ⁓ And I so worried because I had seen what had happened to my colleagues who ⁓ were pregnant taking care of ⁓ small children they couldn't go on field work, either physically could not, or ⁓ they just weren't invited. And it was ⁓ something I was really struggling with. But when I told the producers what was going on, ⁓ they were amazing. They changed the schedule so that I could ⁓ do the filming after my daughter was born.
Marina Psaros: Mm.
Erika Woolsey: ⁓ And it felt like everyone rallied around me. My colleagues in Australia, including Andrew Baird and Tom Bridge and Maddie McAllister and the managers at the Orpheus Island Research Station just made it work. ⁓ My daughter was the youngest ever person to be at that research station. And, you know, she had permission to be there because my husband was going to just kind of stay on land the whole time while I was out underwater. and ⁓ he had paternity leave, which is the best thing ever. And I just felt like there was so much support for me being there and me doing that. And so ⁓ that show became about the science and wonder of the Great Barrier Reef, which is my tour with National Geographic Live. But it also felt like I had permission to weave in my personal story. And something that ⁓ seemed to really resonate with audiences and the meet and greets afterwards were the fact that I talked about my daughter being there. there was also times where I was visibly pregnant with my second child on stage. I was on stage eight months pregnant. And it's really fun to talk about choral reproduction and choral spawning when you have a big belly.
Marina Psaros: Hmm. You
Erika Woolsey: What I had been doing for my PhD research was essentially coral IVF to collect the spawn and watch ⁓ in the early life of corals, the embryos and the larvae I get to frame ⁓ a lot my science from the point of view of What I had been doing for years for my PhD research was essentially coral IVF to ⁓ collect the spawn and sort of watch early development in the early life stages of corals, the embryos and the larvae over time at different temperature treatments. And so I get to frame a lot of my science from the point of view of like, just reproduction in general in the ocean, in humans. I did IVF myself for both pregnancies. And I just, yeah, it's been really cool just talking about motherhood in the ocean. And I realized that both the ocean, both marine ecosystems and motherhood are often very invisible. And so I now feel very empowered thanks to these National Geographic producers to talk about. reproduction in general in the ocean, in humans. ⁓ did IVF myself for both pregnancies. And realized both marine ecosystems and ⁓ motherhood are often very invisible.
Marina Psaros: you
Erika Woolsey: that part of me when I used to think that I had to have my me being a mother and being a scientist is very separate. So it's been a really wonderful exercise and experience.
Marina Psaros: one that I just ⁓ so admire about you is self-advocacy. I've seen you ⁓ graciously but ⁓ firmly advocate for yourself
Erika Woolsey: ⁓
Marina Psaros: And I'm wondering, where did you learn this, ⁓ it's like a of yours that is both understanding what you need and then being able to ⁓ collaboratively ⁓ get it ⁓
Erika Woolsey: I I've learned the hard way. You know, there have been times where I've over promised and under delivered and that feels awful. Nobody wins there. Right. And ⁓ often ⁓ it's a decision like how can we protect time and protect quality of work. And so ⁓ now even when I'm new collaborations with new people. ⁓
Marina Psaros: This
Erika Woolsey: Or if I'm working with longtime collaborators, anytime we embark on anything new, it's wonderful to have clear scopes and clear roles because like so much of success of anything, any relationship, any project is setting expectations and making sure they're aligned so no one gets disappointed. so my ability that, by the way, it's a muscle. I've had to really, really flex it and grow it because I'm a
Marina Psaros: Mmm.
Erika Woolsey: people pleaser in recovery. And I've learned how to kindly and professionally decline things. There's so much kindness and directness, I think. I learned that later, but protecting my own time and being clear about what I can and cannot do, and also just knowing what I cannot do. I know my limits. the way I'm framing it now is my time has never been more valuable, whether it's like actual monetary value, ⁓ or just ⁓ being healthy. ⁓ I'm open about I've, I've with postpartum depression. It's, it's been really tough for me having my two children, ⁓ especially, working and, ⁓ just living in And so ⁓ I, ⁓ really need to protect ⁓ time. I really need to protect my health. And the only way I can do that is to have clear boundaries and limitations.
Marina Psaros: mean, yeah, thank God you were working on that muscle before then, because you just would have been completely steamrolled by parenthood
Erika Woolsey: Yeah, right? ⁓ I would be talking to you right now.
Marina Psaros: Um, you sit in the world of science and the world of storytelling, among other worlds. ⁓ What is one thing that you wish scientists would ⁓ know more or do more with storytelling? And vice versa, what could storytellers... ⁓
Erika Woolsey: Hmm.
Marina Psaros: do and learn from science.
Erika Woolsey: That's such a great question. ⁓ What I would tell scientists is like, your data and your facts are so important. They're so important. They're the basis for collective decision making, right? But they're not as effective as we think they are. I still remember in like my early days of attempting science communication with non-scientists. I was just like so reliant on my data and my graphs and you know, most of my talks don't have graphs anymore. And just people are resistant to those sorts of things. And it's not about proving people wrong or convincing people to agree with you, know, connect with them. Don't convince connect. Right. And so that's why storytelling is so important. Make it personal, make it interesting, make it beautiful, know, whatever.
Marina Psaros: You
Erika Woolsey: whatever your hook is, just invite people in. And two-way conversations are just so important. rather than listening as a way to wait for your turn to speak versus listening to understand is such an important skill. And I'm still learning it because you can have an important, meaningful connection with someone on a specific issue.
Marina Psaros: Yeah
Erika Woolsey: I'm not necessarily talking just about ocean science now. ⁓ And you really need to have the same starting place. I feel like we're all up on our own individual ladders all the time, wondering why people don't see things from our perspective. We all need to come down our ladders and meet people on the ground, right? And see where someone else is before telling them where you are and saying you should be here, you know?
Marina Psaros: Mm.
Erika Woolsey: just connecting with people on a human level is, I think, one of most powerful things you can do ⁓ as a scientist.
Marina Psaros: let's fast forward 10 years ⁓ assume that the hydrus has ⁓ met all the impact measurements of your dreams. take me to one ⁓ specific place, ⁓ a ⁓ reef or a classroom anywhere you about. What is different there as a result of your work?
Erika Woolsey: Well, I would love to bring my kids to the Great Barrier Reef. ⁓ I'm sure my daughter doesn't remember it from when she was three months old. She also didn't go underwater, believe it or not, that time. But when they're older and old enough, I would love to take them snorkeling or diving on a healthy, thriving coral reef. I want them to see ⁓ just the abundance and beauty and reciprocity and joy that the ocean can provide. And that will come from well-designed and enforced marine protected areas, action on climate change and emissions, and thoughtful decision-making and ⁓ a different relationship to the ocean than humanity has now. And I think that all starts with learning, like everything does.
Marina Psaros: what would be the one flora fauna that you want to point to them and explain to what it is ⁓ you have to choose just one ⁓ alright you can choose more than
Erika Woolsey: ⁓ man, I know. I mean, I do love butterfly fish. They're so colorful and ⁓ diverse ⁓ and I love the way they just dart around a reef some them eat coral and ⁓ they're just really cool and fun and they have personalities. ⁓ uh I'd also really love ⁓ my kids to see branching coral acroporids that are plentiful and abundant and healthy, because those being hit the hardest right now, ⁓ mega fauna I would love for them to see whale sharks. ⁓ I've had the opportunity ⁓ to ⁓
Marina Psaros: ⁓
Erika Woolsey: swim with whale sharks. ⁓ During an expedition to the Far North Great Barrier Reef, we were just between our normal sampling surveys and ⁓ we got to hop in the water and swim with them as they went by and it was just one of most magical experiences of my life and really hope that ⁓ they can have a similar experience one day.
Erika Woolsey: everyone starts out as a scientist and as an artist. I see it in my toddler, Delta. She explores the world around her. She asks questions and she always wants to make things because both science and artistic expression are grounded in curiosity and creativity. feel like... I was always supported in these interests. ⁓ had a huge collection of art supplies as a kid and my parents constantly took me outdoors. And I think the natural world is such a perfect combination of art and science. Like the redwood trees and kelp forest here in Northern California remain this incredible source of inspiration and beauty and like an informal laboratory for me.
Marina Psaros: Yes.
Erika Woolsey: I I've always been a scientist and an artist in my own way. I wasn't, but another PhD student and I were really interested in ⁓ science into public understanding that we actually started ⁓ called the Science and Culture Club. ⁓ so we were always interested in using artistic expressions as a way to communicate our research. ⁓ and we even had to organize these events on science communication. So I was always interested in trying new tools for talking about science. And I had a lot of like-minded young scientists with me on that journey. And it wasn't until 2016 that I started playing with Google Cardboards, which were such a fabulous tool. I wish they were still supported.
Marina Psaros: I remember those, yes. Yeah.
Erika Woolsey: that was just game changing for me because I had been talking about ocean science for many years at that point and teaching it and it was incredible the effect just handing over this device for someone to put on their face and it's just my phone in it and they can look around and see an underwater scene that I and my team had collected and The level of curiosity and excitement and just engagement was like no other tool I'd used save for actually diving with people. So when people come out of a headset, a VR headset, it reminds me a lot of when people would come out of take off their dive mask after surfacing from a dive and you'd float on the surface with your buddy and just talk about what you saw.
Marina Psaros: I'm ready.
Erika Woolsey: And that's what it felt like. It's felt like, cause in a lot of the virtual dives I've created, I'm your dive buddy. So when people come out of the headset, we can just talk like we're friends already, even though I may never have spoken to them before and talk about this shared experience.
Marina Psaros: Yeah. ⁓ learned to dive in the Monterey Bay and ⁓ I remember the very time I down, that feeling of being such a different world. ⁓ And I'd never actually realized being in a VR headset is similar to that feeling. But now that you've mentioned it, I've absolutely that experience. ⁓
Erika Woolsey: Ugh. Hmm. I learned to dive in Monterey Bay too. And I'm impressed that you felt so comfortable so fast, it sounds like. I remember ⁓ being a bit a flailer on my first dives. ⁓
Marina Psaros: Really? Ha! Well, we had like fairly low swell and I also had a giant crush on the dive instructor. So,
Erika Woolsey: Mmm. ⁓ yeah, that'll get you up to speed real fast.
Marina Psaros: take me on of these virtual dives. What happens from ⁓ the minute you in that headset?
Erika Woolsey: Mmm. So ⁓ example I want to give for a virtual dive ⁓ from a project ⁓ conducted with the organization of Eastern Caribbean states. ⁓ the government of the Eastern Caribbean. And together we created this virtual dive where ⁓ move down a beach in like St. Lucia in Eastern Caribbean ⁓ ⁓ As you move along the beach, you see a baby sea turtle walking with you and moving into the water and you follow them. And then you submerge beneath the surface and you follow this baby turtle through seagrass and then through a healthy thriving coral reef, colors of blues and pinks around you, schools of fish. And then you across a degraded reef. less colorful, ⁓ less noisy, fewer fish, and you see a ⁓ anchor dragging along a coral reef and you look up and you see a boat. There's ⁓ trash, plastic pollution for instance, on the reef. There's sediment smothering the corals. And then you go over a drop-off. meaning the sea floor and the reef just sort of falls beneath you along a wall and you just go out into the blue and you start to see some charismatic megafauna like rays and dolphins and then a humpback whale swims by you to the point where you can look into its eye and then you emerge and you bring your head above water and you look back and see the island
Marina Psaros: Mm-hmm
Erika Woolsey: that you will be ⁓ emerging onto. so throughout all of this, there's music, there's sound, there's even narration ⁓ And the messaging is all about the blue economy and protecting ⁓ sea life within the jurisdictions ⁓ ⁓ preventing pollution so that we can maintain healthy ocean ecosystems for everybody's enjoyment and for our own well-being. So it was designed as a way to recreate the feeling of going on a real dive and feeling an emotional connection to a place most people can't go, even if they live right by the water in an island nation. What's really fun when we design these experiences at the Hydrus, which is the nonprofit I run, is we always follow a similar model where it's like a dive profile. you ⁓ start on land, ⁓ you immerse yourself, ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ learn about ⁓ maybe some of the ocean challenges that are being faced, you explore and maybe ⁓ the ⁓ interactions. ⁓ And then you ascend with a really positive experience and message of hope or a call to action. And quite often there's a safety stop. So for those who may not be divers that are listening, in the safety you ⁓ are, stopping for three minutes at about 15 feet depth to prevent ⁓ the bends ⁓ or with inert nitrogen in your body. ⁓ And these experiences that sort of used as a reflection point to think about what you just saw. And so much learning happens in reflection ⁓ and so ⁓ you emerge and you bring lessons and knowledge back to land. that's been the framework that we've used at the Hydras for many years. ⁓ And whether it's our hands-on learning kits that we developed with National Geographic or any of our virtual dive experiences, or even the talks I give at National Geographic, it always follows what it be like to actually dive.
Marina Psaros: the hydras is a ⁓ tool that people can in the classroom or on their own, but the NatGeo ⁓ talks, you take ⁓ a room full of people on a virtual dive with you, ⁓
Erika Woolsey: so 2019, ⁓ I the incredible privilege ⁓ being one the explorers to ⁓ lead over ⁓ people on virtual because they had basically VR headsets to synchronize with each other. ⁓ And so what everyone saw in the headset was same. So it was this mass group experience. And I live narrated from stage in Grosvenor Auditorium in Washington, DC. And had four short dives. ⁓ And between the dives, took off the headsets, like you would take off a dive mask. And we had what ⁓ I would call a interval, ⁓ which is another thing do in real diving. ⁓ And that's a chance talk and reflect and ask questions and maybe explain something you saw and then do a dive briefing for the next dive. ⁓ It was just such a fun experience. I had never seen anything like it. And I think prior to that, I'd heard a lot of conversation about virtual reality or a digital immersive experiences can be really isolating, but I saw it as an incredible social shared experience. And what was really cool is there were researchers on site and we did multiple shows and we also did a little bit of AB testing where We had an audience of students that had the VR experience just like all the others, but then an audience of students who didn't have the VR experience. So they still got the same narration from me. They also had a two-dimensional version of the virtual dives on the big screen behind me, but they didn't have the VR And what was so obvious is that the questions were so different. ⁓ The students that just had the two dimensional version of the dive experience on the screen, their questions were all about me. So something very typical is people ask, what's your favorite fish? Have you ever dived with sharks? How much money does the marine biologist make? That kind of stuff. Yeah, so questions to the scientist on stage. But what was really cool for the VR students
Marina Psaros: Key question. Yeah. Yeah.
Erika Woolsey: is that their questions were all about what they saw. They became the scientists. So I'll never forget this young girl asked, I could see inside the manta rays mouth and I couldn't, I didn't see any organs where it's organs. It looked empty. And I just remember being blown away and other students I've, you know, I've taken the show on the road to libraries and museums and universities with the synchronized dive system and
Marina Psaros: Yeah.
Erika Woolsey: ⁓ And that perspective shift from being sort of passive listener into an active participant is huge ⁓ for experiential learning and curiosity. And I think one of the best ways ⁓ you can measure impact the types ⁓ of questions that you ⁓ That's one of the Nat Geo talks that I've been giving. But in addition, I'm actually on tour right now with National Geographic Live, where I go to symphony halls across the country and speak to thousands of people at a time for 90 minutes about the Great Barrier Reef. And so it's this really cool multimedia experience that uses my own footage, footage from the hydrus, but is also.
Marina Psaros: Wow.
Erika Woolsey: very rich with national geographic content. So it's a huge privilege to tell the story of my science and ocean science in general ⁓ with these incredible tools. ⁓ And I've been on that tour for, gosh, two or three years now, ⁓ stopping to have a baby along the way. And there isn't any VR involved. ⁓ They're ⁓ referred to as ⁓ live documentaries. So while very media rich very immersive in other ways, ⁓ for instance, ⁓ at one point we turn lights down the theater and play whale song, right? ⁓ So there are multiple ways to be immersive using immersive virtual reality.
Marina Psaros: I love hear a response or a reaction from someone that's surprised you or that's really stuck with you.
Erika Woolsey: Hmm. I've ⁓ some trends ⁓ like I'd say that most of the people who come up to me afterwards or I talk to as soon as they take off the headset, they just have this look of wonder on their face. Like I said, it reminds me so much of an actual dive mask being taken off. And for those people that are divers or swimmers and snorkelers, ⁓ they might say something like, wow, that felt just like the real thing. ⁓
Marina Psaros: Ha!
Erika Woolsey: Or if they aren't divers, they might say something like, ⁓ wow, that makes me really want to go swimming or go diving. ⁓ Or I used to be afraid of sharks, but I was just swimming with reef sharks and I didn't feel scared. So maybe it's something I can do. Or I have a lot of especially older people or people with newer disabilities who say that they used to dive and wish they could again. or people who never will and never got the chance, but they say that Even if wasn't real, it felt ⁓ real in a lot of ways because this technology can feelings of presence, like you're actually in a different place and you're actually underwater.
Marina Psaros: Yeah. ⁓ I know that you this, for the benefit of those who may not be up on all their marine science, ⁓ it's ⁓ come out recently that healthy reefs very loud places. So like snapping shrimp and ⁓ grunting fish and just this whole cacophony. And degraded reefs are quiet, ⁓ I'm going to play some sounds that I think you will And I would love to hear your reactions ⁓ the sounds themselves what you might know about this since you probably know the researchers who are doing the research. it's be like a game show. We can see if you know what sound is. ⁓ All right, let me play it.
Erika Woolsey: I love it. It sounds like static, doesn't it?
Marina Psaros: I'm gonna stop it there. I would... It does. And there's also like, a farting sound in there. So tell me what it is we're listening to
Erika Woolsey: ⁓ I know the location. also don't have any data on what was actually IDed in the location, ⁓ but can tell you that a lot of the snap, crackle, pop sounds that you hear ⁓ on healthy wreath ⁓ come bioerotors. So ⁓ things sea urchins scraping algae off of hard surfaces or fish like parrotfish chomping on coral. ⁓ I think also in that footage, there were a lot of shrimps just sort of snapping my colleague, Dr. Rohan Booker from the Australian Institute of Marine Science, ⁓ this really cool project called Reef Song. And he's really interested in how these audio recordings, ⁓ can explain the important interactions between corals and fish. ⁓ healthy corals mean healthy fish and ⁓ fish mean healthy corals There are lot of coral reef fish that will actually eat algae off of corals, so keep them clean and healthy so that they can continue to grow and don't get smothered. ⁓ And so these interactions between different trophic levels, between different life forms is becoming ⁓ disentangled the more research we conduct.
Marina Psaros: Okay, I'm curious. ⁓ oftentimes people will have an expertise problem where you know that you to simplify because you're overwhelming people but your urge is to make sure that it's perfectly accurate. What do you do? How do you decide?
Erika Woolsey: Yeah, I know. ⁓ in the first VR film I created called Immersed, ⁓ and I had an team at the Hydros to do this. ⁓ Like it was so to make Marina. So we just wanted to put everything in this nine minute virtual dive. So ⁓ we had infographics, we animation, we had ⁓ narration ⁓ and music and...
Marina Psaros: Hmm.
Erika Woolsey: I think it worked really well. On one hand, it was very balanced, but also some of the feedback we received is like, there was a lot going on. I need to go back in and see, kind of focus on different things each time, which on one way, it actually is kind of cool where it invites repeat viewing because you might have missed something or it was overwhelming. And ⁓ that be ⁓ compared to real diving. Cause I know anytime I've dived on a new site, I like to just do kind of a run through and explore.
Marina Psaros: Mm-hmm.
Erika Woolsey: before coming back and looking at specific things. But I also think that the motivation for putting so many things in there was driven by how valuable that real estate was in terms of time. And yeah, think I would ⁓ slow things down. I also wouldn't try to list facts because VR is especially powerful for
Marina Psaros: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Erika Woolsey: affect and emotional connection and presence ⁓ and so much for like ⁓ knowledge consolidation so, yeah, I think building an on-ramp or an off-ramp or as I've been calling it, like a dive briefing and debrief ⁓ outside of the actual experience ⁓ makes a much more effective ⁓ holistic approach.
Marina Psaros: Mm. So you've been in academia. You've been in the nonprofit world, both, as a Nat Geo explorer and also the Hydrus itself is a non-profit. And then you've had at least one foot in the tech world through the Hydrus these really different cultures. ⁓ And ⁓ of them have been particularly welcoming to women ⁓ historically.
Erika Woolsey: Mm-hmm. Hmm.
Marina Psaros: what's it like being ⁓ often the only woman in the room?
Erika Woolsey: Well, mean, let's be honest. What place is woman friendly? mean, all of the data I see, which is the number of women leading companies, the number of women in office, number of women with tenure, we're nowhere near equity. And that's for a lot of reasons. And sometimes it's overt harassment or violence. ⁓ Sometimes it's unconscious bias. ⁓
Marina Psaros: Ouch, yeah.
Erika Woolsey: But yeah, it's still a problem and it really persists over generations. It changes, obviously. A lot of those numbers I reference in terms of women representation is increasing. In fact, it was really cool during my PhD, my program actually was about 50 % women. ⁓ But then of course, as you looked ahead in your department, you see like,
Marina Psaros: Wow.
Erika Woolsey: fewer women in postdoc positions, fewer women in assistant professor positions. And then I think I can think of one or two female tenured professors. ⁓ you know, there are a lot of reasons that leave these roles. And sometimes it's, you know, ⁓ by choice. ⁓ Other times it's ⁓ kind of just burnout or being forced out and like
Marina Psaros: Yeah.
Erika Woolsey: lack of childcare or unpaid domestic labor. It's just so many factors. it's not necessarily about what women need to do differently. that's possibly part of it in terms of like individual actions, ⁓ you know, the sort of lean in mentality, but it's about how do we improve systems? How do we engage ⁓ men ⁓ in building systems that help everybody?
Marina Psaros: Mm-hmm.
Erika Woolsey: I, you can tell, I have ⁓ a lot of, lot of frustrations and I see, ⁓ some very, ⁓ putting things every day in, ⁓ in how women general are treated or how I'm specifically treated. ⁓ but I've also incredible male mentors and role models who are just wonderful people. ⁓ And I've learned so much from, and also have, ⁓ a lot of female colleagues that are going strong that ⁓ I just admire so much. And so I focus on what's working as much as I can. support women on a personal level. But I also think a lot of things need to change. ⁓ And know, I'm a new mom. And ⁓ I'm very lucky to have an incredibly supportive husband and he's just ⁓ the best. I, yeah, ⁓ I have so much be thankful for, but really, really, really hard. And I think that ⁓ it'd be very easy ⁓ for me to leave any of the things I'm doing right now ⁓ ⁓ of all these extra responsibilities. This isn't the case for me, but in most heterosexual relationships, women are expected to take the majority of the childcare or household tasks, even if they work as much as their partners. I think it starts with individual action and fathers taking on more responsibilities in the home so that ⁓ their partners and the mothers can ⁓ be part of the world.
Marina Psaros: Hmm. I some parallels recently you drew between and coral reef resilience. ⁓ I would just love to hear you talk a bit about that.
Erika Woolsey: Hehehehehe Yeah, so this reflection started when I was pregnant with my first child, ⁓ And ⁓ had amazing opportunity ⁓ to ⁓ this Geographic live show and go on tour, ⁓ the tour doing right now. ⁓ And I so worried because I had seen what had happened to my colleagues who ⁓ were pregnant taking care of ⁓ small children they couldn't go on field work, either physically could not, or ⁓ they just weren't invited. And it was ⁓ something I was really struggling with. But when I told the producers what was going on, ⁓ they were amazing. They changed the schedule so that I could ⁓ do the filming after my daughter was born.
Marina Psaros: Mm.
Erika Woolsey: ⁓ And it felt like everyone rallied around me. My colleagues in Australia, including Andrew Baird and Tom Bridge and Maddie McAllister and the managers at the Orpheus Island Research Station just made it work. ⁓ My daughter was the youngest ever person to be at that research station. And, you know, she had permission to be there because my husband was going to just kind of stay on land the whole time while I was out underwater. and ⁓ he had paternity leave, which is the best thing ever. And I just felt like there was so much support for me being there and me doing that. And so ⁓ that show became about the science and wonder of the Great Barrier Reef, which is my tour with National Geographic Live. But it also felt like I had permission to weave in my personal story. And something that ⁓ seemed to really resonate with audiences and the meet and greets afterwards were the fact that I talked about my daughter being there. there was also times where I was visibly pregnant with my second child on stage. I was on stage eight months pregnant. And it's really fun to talk about choral reproduction and choral spawning when you have a big belly.
Marina Psaros: Hmm. You
Erika Woolsey: What I had been doing for my PhD research was essentially coral IVF to collect the spawn and watch ⁓ in the early life of corals, the embryos and the larvae I get to frame ⁓ a lot my science from the point of view of What I had been doing for years for my PhD research was essentially coral IVF to ⁓ collect the spawn and sort of watch early development in the early life stages of corals, the embryos and the larvae over time at different temperature treatments. And so I get to frame a lot of my science from the point of view of like, just reproduction in general in the ocean, in humans. I did IVF myself for both pregnancies. And I just, yeah, it's been really cool just talking about motherhood in the ocean. And I realized that both the ocean, both marine ecosystems and motherhood are often very invisible. And so I now feel very empowered thanks to these National Geographic producers to talk about. reproduction in general in the ocean, in humans. ⁓ did IVF myself for both pregnancies. And realized both marine ecosystems and ⁓ motherhood are often very invisible.
Marina Psaros: you
Erika Woolsey: that part of me when I used to think that I had to have my me being a mother and being a scientist is very separate. So it's been a really wonderful exercise and experience.
Marina Psaros: one that I just ⁓ so admire about you is self-advocacy. I've seen you ⁓ graciously but ⁓ firmly advocate for yourself
Erika Woolsey: ⁓
Marina Psaros: And I'm wondering, where did you learn this, ⁓ it's like a of yours that is both understanding what you need and then being able to ⁓ collaboratively ⁓ get it ⁓
Erika Woolsey: I I've learned the hard way. You know, there have been times where I've over promised and under delivered and that feels awful. Nobody wins there. Right. And ⁓ often ⁓ it's a decision like how can we protect time and protect quality of work. And so ⁓ now even when I'm new collaborations with new people. ⁓
Marina Psaros: This
Erika Woolsey: Or if I'm working with longtime collaborators, anytime we embark on anything new, it's wonderful to have clear scopes and clear roles because like so much of success of anything, any relationship, any project is setting expectations and making sure they're aligned so no one gets disappointed. so my ability that, by the way, it's a muscle. I've had to really, really flex it and grow it because I'm a
Marina Psaros: Mmm.
Erika Woolsey: people pleaser in recovery. And I've learned how to kindly and professionally decline things. There's so much kindness and directness, I think. I learned that later, but protecting my own time and being clear about what I can and cannot do, and also just knowing what I cannot do. I know my limits. the way I'm framing it now is my time has never been more valuable, whether it's like actual monetary value, ⁓ or just ⁓ being healthy. ⁓ I'm open about I've, I've with postpartum depression. It's, it's been really tough for me having my two children, ⁓ especially, working and, ⁓ just living in And so ⁓ I, ⁓ really need to protect ⁓ time. I really need to protect my health. And the only way I can do that is to have clear boundaries and limitations.
Marina Psaros: mean, yeah, thank God you were working on that muscle before then, because you just would have been completely steamrolled by parenthood
Erika Woolsey: Yeah, right? ⁓ I would be talking to you right now.
Marina Psaros: Um, you sit in the world of science and the world of storytelling, among other worlds. ⁓ What is one thing that you wish scientists would ⁓ know more or do more with storytelling? And vice versa, what could storytellers... ⁓
Erika Woolsey: Hmm.
Marina Psaros: do and learn from science.
Erika Woolsey: That's such a great question. ⁓ What I would tell scientists is like, your data and your facts are so important. They're so important. They're the basis for collective decision making, right? But they're not as effective as we think they are. I still remember in like my early days of attempting science communication with non-scientists. I was just like so reliant on my data and my graphs and you know, most of my talks don't have graphs anymore. And just people are resistant to those sorts of things. And it's not about proving people wrong or convincing people to agree with you, know, connect with them. Don't convince connect. Right. And so that's why storytelling is so important. Make it personal, make it interesting, make it beautiful, know, whatever.
Marina Psaros: You
Erika Woolsey: whatever your hook is, just invite people in. And two-way conversations are just so important. rather than listening as a way to wait for your turn to speak versus listening to understand is such an important skill. And I'm still learning it because you can have an important, meaningful connection with someone on a specific issue.
Marina Psaros: Yeah
Erika Woolsey: I'm not necessarily talking just about ocean science now. ⁓ And you really need to have the same starting place. I feel like we're all up on our own individual ladders all the time, wondering why people don't see things from our perspective. We all need to come down our ladders and meet people on the ground, right? And see where someone else is before telling them where you are and saying you should be here, you know?
Marina Psaros: Mm.
Erika Woolsey: just connecting with people on a human level is, I think, one of most powerful things you can do ⁓ as a scientist.
Marina Psaros: let's fast forward 10 years ⁓ assume that the hydrus has ⁓ met all the impact measurements of your dreams. take me to one ⁓ specific place, ⁓ a ⁓ reef or a classroom anywhere you about. What is different there as a result of your work?
Erika Woolsey: Well, I would love to bring my kids to the Great Barrier Reef. ⁓ I'm sure my daughter doesn't remember it from when she was three months old. She also didn't go underwater, believe it or not, that time. But when they're older and old enough, I would love to take them snorkeling or diving on a healthy, thriving coral reef. I want them to see ⁓ just the abundance and beauty and reciprocity and joy that the ocean can provide. And that will come from well-designed and enforced marine protected areas, action on climate change and emissions, and thoughtful decision-making and ⁓ a different relationship to the ocean than humanity has now. And I think that all starts with learning, like everything does.
Marina Psaros: what would be the one flora fauna that you want to point to them and explain to what it is ⁓ you have to choose just one ⁓ alright you can choose more than
Erika Woolsey: ⁓ man, I know. I mean, I do love butterfly fish. They're so colorful and ⁓ diverse ⁓ and I love the way they just dart around a reef some them eat coral and ⁓ they're just really cool and fun and they have personalities. ⁓ uh I'd also really love ⁓ my kids to see branching coral acroporids that are plentiful and abundant and healthy, because those being hit the hardest right now, ⁓ mega fauna I would love for them to see whale sharks. ⁓ I've had the opportunity ⁓ to ⁓
Marina Psaros: ⁓
Erika Woolsey: swim with whale sharks. ⁓ During an expedition to the Far North Great Barrier Reef, we were just between our normal sampling surveys and ⁓ we got to hop in the water and swim with them as they went by and it was just one of most magical experiences of my life and really hope that ⁓ they can have a similar experience one day.
