Transcript: Lou Cope talks to Jonzi D
Date: 16 May 2022
Lou Intro: Jonzi D is the founder and Artistic Director of Jonzi D Projects and Breakin’ Convention the international Hip Hop festival he founded in 2004 with Sadlers Wells. A dancer, spoken word artist and director, he is the foremost advocate for hiphop theatre who has changed the profile and influenced the development of the UK British hip-hop dance and theatre scene over the last two decades.
As well as making his own work, with shows such as The Letter in 2013, which he made about his decision to turn down an MBE, and TAG … Just writing in my name 2006, and the more recent film We Want Our Bodies Back he is passionate, as we will hear, about supporting the work of other artists, and the development of Hip Hop theatre as a whole.
In fact his most recent role is as Artistic Director of The brand new Hip Hop Theatre Academy – which opens at the new Sadlers Wells East venue in 2023.
I spoke to Jonzi in May 2022, and we talked about the changes he has seen across the years of Breakin Convention; his hopes for the new academy and the philosophy of Each one Teach one – that informs his own life, and the Hip Hop sector more widely.
Lou: Jonzi, you describe yourself in your biography as an MC, a dancer, a spoken word artist and a director, but you're also, of course, tell me if I'm wrong, a choreographer, an activist, a mentor, a teacher, a curator, a facilitator, a judge, a presenter, a DJ, a graffiti artist, a B boy, I think you're a dramaturg, a pioneer, founder and Artistic Director of ‘Breakin Convention’. You've won multiple awards and now you are running ‘The Hip Hop Theatre Academy’ in the brand-new Sadler’s Wells East opening in 2023. You cover quite a lot of ground hey?
Jonzi D: There's a lot of ground has been covered there. I will hasten to say that I'm not a DJ. That's the one for now I can't commit to. But I would say that all of the others I've done, whether it's to a large extent or to a small extent, and I would also say that being an artist, you should do all of these things, particularly if you're involved in theatre. And I think it's one of the most beautiful parts of the performance industry and it smokes music.
Yeah. I'm just saying that right now, theatre incorporates music. You know what I mean? But there's so many other details that come about it. And if anything, you gave me a list of performer’s potential career.
Lou: So you mean that you cover all of that ground because you have to, in terms of the passion, it just spreads across all that?
Jonzi D: I think so. I think maybe some younger artists might not spread across that, but some of the older artists that I'm aware of in the field, you know, people like Kate Prince, as you said, the people like Kenrick Sandy, who were still part of this fledgling form, you know, hip hop theatre. Yeah, they, I think would ascribe to having all of those, that list of things, you know. Kenrick Sandy, he's an artist, graphic artist. He also does poetry himself as well as being a mentor choreographer, company director, educator. You know what I mean? So I'd like to say that anybody that is involved in hip hop, there's a couple of things that relate to that, which is ‘each one, teach one’. This is one of the pillars of hip hop culture in which it's your responsibility to share what you know.
So I think that most hip hoppers will agree to that. So that's where the mentoring and educating will come into as well. And also there's the ‘always a student’ thing. Yeah. Where there's always new stuff to learn. And with hip hop it’s so exciting, it's so fast moving, the developments in the technical aspects of the form and also where the form happens now.
There's so many changes that I think that we're constantly keeping up with what it consists of to be a hip hop artist, particularly in the theatre world.
Lou: Right. Yeah. It keeps growing. It keeps reinventing itself. So what's at the heart of it all, what's the thing that drives you most across all of that? Obviously, a love of hip hop in its broadest sense, but what else?
Jonzi D: I'd say that invention that I think is at the root of hip hop. There's so many competitions that are part of hip hop culture, that is a constant sense of iron sharpening iron. So it's always getting better and people have to be more inventive to be able to win battles, you know, whatever level things were at last year, we have to increase it. So, having that attitude within theatre, I think is an exciting thing. And it doesn't surprise me why it is so much hip hop theatrical stuff being generated at the moment.
Lou: So as artistic director at ‘Breakin Convention’, the values of ‘Breakin Convention’ are described as including, profiling the world’s elite hip hop performers, nurturing UK-based talent, exploring the possibilities of hip hop, dance theatre, educating on the foundations of hip hop dance and engaging the children and young people. And so, yeah, you've literally just finished ‘Breakin Convention 2022’. We'll talk about that. But you actually set it up 18 years ago in 2004. What was in response to then? Why did it need doing?
Jonzi D: Let's go back a little bit further than that. So I started creating what I call hip hop theatre in 1995 with a show called ‘Lyrical Theatre’. I've just been out of The Place London contemporary dance school. I left there in 1992. And as soon as I left, I ended up joining a rap tour featuring a group called Gangstar and an artist called Jeru The Damager
And it felt like a complete shift after studying at a very high level in contemporary dance, classical ballet, release work, choreography. I felt disillusioned, at that point, because I didn't feel as though what was happening in school at the time was speaking to me. Cos I was fully into this hip hop culture and a lot of the ideas, a lot of the politics, a lot of the diversity that existed within hip hop didn't exist in contemporary dance in that way.
I felt quite lonely in contemporary dance. So I think that the whole move towards hip hop is identifying all of the ideas that I discovered when studying at London Contemporary Dance School, searching and for new movement and searching for new ways of doing things. And I'm, I've got a hip-hop fully here, which is obviously a brand-new way of looking at how we can move our bodies. Yet there was a disconnect and I think it's based upon class and class alone. Yeah. The fact that this culture comes from the working class, I felt that it just didn't compute within this institutionalized context anyway. I created ‘Lyrical Theatre’, in response to that, because I wanted to bring the hip hop audience into the theatre. So I needed to make work that was going to appeal to them. I wasn't as interested in trying to make work that appealed to the contemporary dance audience, because a lot of the messages that I had, I was maybe insecure about sharing some of that with them. You know what I mean? Cause I'm coming from a performance poetry, you know, very politically motivated world, you know, and I'm bringing that into The Place in 1996.
So there was a, there's a sense of being alone that I had when I first started making my work in this country. Then when I started touring, I noticed that particularly in France, they had been doing hip hop dance in the theatre for years. Yeah. I did some work in New York at the time and they had a whole hip hop theatre festival and it was much more focused on spoken word, but they had a little bit of dance in that as well. And then I realized that it's not just me. I'm not alone in this. There are other people that can do this. So basically, after performing The Queen Elizabeth Hall, I performed ‘Aeroplane’ around in 2000 or actually1999, and Alastair Spalding, he was head of dance there, and after doing that show and it worked down really well, with Alastair and his nice jovial self said “Jonzi you know, what, what is it what's going on with this?” I said it's not just me. Yeah. It's a whole other community of people that are exploring these dance styles and techniques as a theatrical vehicle, we should do a hip hop festival. So then he ended up leaving and he got the job as chief exec. Was it chief exec?, Something like that, I can’t remember the original role. But when he got that, the first thing that he did was call me and said, Jonzi, should we try this festival? So, yeah, that was when it started. So we were talking about it in 2003, the first one was 2004 and we just kept on going since then.
Lou: So you kept going and growing and reaching new audiences, you had festivals all over the world, had labs. Yeah. You know, battles and teaching and shows and, and everything haven't you, all over the world giving space for, for new artists. So let's talk about what's changed across those 18 years. First of all, in terms of landscape, how would you find the people's response to it. The audiences you get and the acknowledgement hip hop gets now as an art form has changed. Presumably it's changed quite a lot?
Jonzi D: It has I think the, the, the significant change I think was when we first did it at Sadler's Wells. And I remember there was somebody that worked in the building that had a little whisper in the air of Alistair and said, “you know, we need to be careful because there's a really close association to violence and hip hop”. And according to the media, the mainstream media, yes, of course there is, because that's all they ever talk about, you know, rappers who end up shooting each other and just the general nihilistic approach to hip hop that we see through the music videos. There's a lot of sex and violence that has been promoted through that.
These values are much more likened to Hollywood rather than, now, to hip hop culture. You know, I think the values of hip hop culture, are clearly stated. Anybody who knows them understands is about peace, love, unity, and having fun. Hip hop culture grew out of the ills that living in a poor socioeconomic context will bring and rather than people fighting against each other, literally people started to challenge each other with their artistry.
So at least it kept people alive rather than killing off people. So actually, hip hop came out of conflict resolution, that's fundamentally what it's about. So even though the media has painted this image of ultra-violence, the reality of the culture is it is what we present at Sadler’s Wells, you know, after the first one that we did You know, people that were 70 and we had seven year olds all in the same space together, we had an incredible diversity of people and Sadler's Wells had never seen so many young, black, Asian kids all in the space playing together. You know what I mean? We had graffiti sprayed on the walls in the building, and I think again, we start to see it, not as crime now. And we start to see it for what it is, which is art and very highly technically skilled artists that are making this work. I also think it felt like a safe space for maybe people outside of the culture to, to feel the culture and to get a sense of the culture because Sadler's Wells was housing it, as opposed to this grimy little club in the corner of whatever, you know what I mean? And I think that the profile that Sadler's Wells has, we were able to push hip hop through that in a way in which it's a family event, because more often than not, we think of hip hop as some type of X-rated dynamic, but actually hip hop is for the children.
Lou: I just, last night, saw ‘Avant Garde Dance’ and ‘Just Us Dance Theatre’ on Brighton beach, and there they were, the families, kids. It was brilliant. Both of shows were brilliant and people loved, you know, everybody loved them. It was really great. And I suspect that's exactly what you're talking about. You know, the skill level is insane, you know, the music's great. It's just and also actually, interestingly, not shying away from really serious content, even though we were at a beach and it's outdoors and it's quite a difficult place to play, I expect that's what you're talking about, well, all manner of audiences loved it. Yes. So there it is, all happening.
Okay. In terms of form then, now bearing in mind, this is a bit niche, you're talking with a Dramaturge, but I'm always super interested in how an artist goes from, yeah, especially perhaps in the hip hop world, going from small ideas about movement, to then making like a 10, 15, 20-minute show into then making a full-length work. And I'm always interested in how that happens and how the dramaturgy of the show can hold all these different languages and the narrative and the characters and, and maybe, you know, some abstraction as well. How do you find that journey? You know, and it's also about hip hop, becoming hip hop theatre, isn't it?
How do you find that journey from going from something small to something long and about something? And how do you support artists when they're making that transition?
Jonzi D: Fantastic question for me. That's a fantastic question. Of course, we see hip hop culture and it kind of happens in short bursts.
Within a battle context, a dance battle someone doing a set versus another dancer. It will be a short as 30 seconds it’s very rare that it's longer than two and a half minutes. Maybe with certain forms, like House Dance, it’s a little bit longer, but definitely with Breaking, it's a very short explosive, impactful moment. So there's a sense that it naturally is suited to that length of time, but that's only because of the context. That's cos we've normalized seeing hip hop within this battle context, which is really quick, but to train to do that, you need to be doing hours in the studio. So as well as it having this short, impactful end result within a battle context, the idea of working for many, many hours create your work isn’t unusual. So we already know what it feels like to rehearse for a long time. You know, writers, especially the MCs will write a battle verse that can be, you know, 24, even longer bars long, do three verses of that, and have to learn it all before their battle. Yeah. So the idea of learning text and writing texts within a hip hop context is like, ‘go, go, go, go’.
So I think that in relation to making material. The dynamic of hip-hop demands that you make lots of material, even when it comes to dance and battling, if someone saw you do a move in the last battle, and then you do the same thing again, immediate, you'll get this gesture, which means ‘Biting’ or this gesture.
Yeah, actually, no, sorry. That's not by any means repeating. But this gesture, sorry, let me be clear. This gesture means ‘Biting’, which is, if someone sees you do a move that somebody else did or somebody else, then you lose points for ‘Biting’
Lou: So basically borrowing, stealing. Yes?
Jonzi D: Yes, yes, yes. Stealing. It must be clear. So I guess what I'm saying is hip hop, the dynamic of hip hop, produces lots of material anyway. Yeah. So that's not one of the problems when it comes to make a long length, we can do that. If anything, it's what your job is! It's the dramaturgy of making something long. The whole purpose of length, I think is because you need to articulate something that you can't articulate in 15 minutes, you know? Let's keep it real though, there's a lot of Theatre out there that could be 15 minutes that they want to make an hour long.
Lou: Or two and a half. I might say.
Jonzi D: Two and half, do you know what I mean, you already know what the story is, you know what I mean? So I think this is something that we, as in the hip hop community, I think we can offer theatre, which is something a bit more rhythmical, impactful. And when I say impact, I mean, rhythmically impactful, you know what I mean? Rather than waft do you know what I mean? Cause we can do waft as well, but I think what's great about hip hop techniques is that there is impact and there is a, a high level of cardio type work going into it as well.
But. I think part of the difficulty that I've had when it comes to creating a long piece, is that impact in hip hop and actually the, having a reason to just sit back feels weird for a lot of hip hoppers. Cause we feel like now we've got to fill the space with as much as possible when you've got these 45 second sets.
They're so filled with so much different movement that you can take that 1 45 minutes set, dismantle that choreography and you could probably make a whole 10-minute piece just based upon that movement of what’s crammed into that 45 seconds using techniques like repetition, changing your face, pausing.
Yeah. So I think there's a lot to dig into with the work. I think it's more about the mentality of the hip hop artists resisting the need to feel as though you have to bang out everything within the first 15 minutes of your work.
Lou: Yeah, and all the way through as well. I find that with lots of shows that I'm working on in all sorts of different types of dance, that sometimes I find myself saying to a choreographer you need to, that the show was too full and that there isn't enough time for breath or thinking, or for others, non-dancers to absorb and enjoy and understand. But of course, they feel like they have to fill it with movement because that's what they do. But I can understand. Yeah, in the hip hop world, it's so impactful. That it's the question of, where does the shade come from and where does the space come from? Especially if you're holding onto a narrative that, per se, can't be ‘Dof Dof Dof’ all the way through can it? So how do you, do you have ideas about how people find that shade or that quiet, or that space, and also to survive the show because that way, they’re not going to survive the show, they’re going to be knackered.
How do you work with that then with, when you're working with people?
Jonzi D: Well, I think it's giving them the confidence to be still, you know, just giving the artists a reason, actually, to be still, you know what I mean, and to be confident about that dramatic choice. I think it's also important to just talk about the arc of whatever piece you're making, because depending on how the arc works, you can just pause in this moment of the arc simply because it just looks so beautiful and then just develop more material in that space. So I think the beautiful thing about dance is that it's, it's a language that can be understood if you don't understand. The language.
I mean, it's not like, you know, Danish, do you know what I mean? If you don’t know the language, you ain’t gonna know what they’re saying. But with dance, you can speak, you know? And I think it's about encouraging people to trust that we are listening to you from beginning to end. You don't need to cram anything.
Also, I think particularly with the way in which people are making work now dance is a part of the vision, you know, lights is its own character, you know what I mean? And when dancers understand that stillness is alright, then we can allow the dark and the lights to play around them and dance around them, so they don't have to do that much. Music also does that. Yeah. This encouraging of hip hoppers to not use music. This is something in contemporary dance we just did it all the time, and we'd have the music as almost like a ‘Musak’ and just have it as a backdrop to whatever abstract movement that we're doing. It used to really annoy me to be honest with you. I've always been a fan of dancing to the music!
Nonetheless hip hoppers do that all the time. So it's about deconstructing these type of ideas as well. I think that the idea that we have to do an hour, or an hour and a half piece of work, we need to change that, you know? I think that it's been a problem for a lot of hip hop artists who feel as though they have to do an evening’s amount of work.
Whereas for me as a programmer, I don't have that demand whatsoever. I will create a context in which it's a strong 20 minute piece of work can stay as a strong 20 minute work and don't try to make it into an hour and then it becomes baggy. So what I'd like to encourage is the freedom to do however length piece of work you want to do.
Lou: That's great. That doesn't happen everywhere. Does it? I think artists are under pressure to turn their 10 minute piece into an hour long piece. And I totally have seen that. That is not always a positive thing and it's certainly not an easy thing. So it's nice to hear that in your world, you're not demanding that. And so would you put those as a double bill, a triple bill, something like that then?
Jonzi D: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's nice to see more than one piece. And I think this idea, that this insistence, I mean, I can understand it from a financial point of view. Even though that's more when you're getting into the commercial world, but we're still in this independent dance sector. I don't think we should have to do full evenings of work. And I would encourage artists to make work as long as it's meant to be. Yeah.
Lou: Yeah. I like to say that too, but, but yeah, sometimes it's not true. I just want to say that you obviously are a dramaturg you talk exactly like a dramaturg and the way that you're thinking, you know, I love it. It clearly is, and so presumably your love of hip hop became a level of hip hop theatre because of this expansion and because of the storytelling and also because of the impact you wanted to have. And you know, the content you wanted to address. And I'm wondering about how that is now, in terms of you know, as I understand it, hip hop is about a sort of consciousness and action and acknowledging the struggle, and pushing against the edges or breaking down the edges of whatever. How, do you see that these days? What would make, what are people making work about? What are they making work for and how, and is it the case that hip hop has to be about that struggle? Or can it be just entertainment? I'm aware there's this sort of discourse around this and I'm wondering what your thoughts are.
Jonzi D: I think that generally arts tends to come from a place where people need to express something, it's a need. I don't think, particularly within hip hop culture and the socioeconomic context in which it comes from. I don't know if people did have nothing to say, you know what I mean? You have to say something when you're in that situation, and when you're already disempowered, economically and stuff, the arts is usually our only outlet.
You know what I mean? So I think what we're talking about maybe is to do with reasons why art exists for different communities. Yeah. We've been really used to this theatre community as being a place where we see art as fantasy, you know, Romeo and Juliet and you know, his famous ballets and these, you know, and they're not really, you know, a core of them, you know, what is the message? You know, and sometimes people don't want to hear a message cause they're quite comfortable with where they are in society, maybe, I don't know. If we look at what has dominated, particularly these high art venues. It's not working-class people, you know what I mean? So I think that because hip hop is coming from that perspective, it naturally does that.
Let's not get it twisted, a lot of the music that's being pumped out isn't saying anything anyway. And a lot of it is just talking about partying and drinking this, that, and the other. So there's a huge part of hip hop for the last 20 plus years that has said nothing as far as I'm concerned. So I think it's important to realize that it is a choice.
We are responding to the world today, the world today, isn't the nicest place in the world when it comes to truth, justice, inequality, you know, these things are clear. It's also clear that we're living in pretty much a one government, one system, basically. All of the newspapers. They're all pretty much saying the same thing.
I remember there was a time when. You know, there were left-wing papers and there were right-wing papers, I think that's all dead now. You know what I mean? And I really think that the cultural war is becoming something where we're having a go at each other. Meanwhile, we're all struggling, you know, we're all getting poorer. The, the, the energy price cap is ridiculous. You know what I mean? And simultaneously there's billionaires that are just being created right in front of us. Yeah. And I think that society can't sustain that for too long and the artists are going to be the first ones that are going to come out and say something about it. So I don't think it's a question of whether things have to or not. Yeah. It's the fact that things are.
Lou: Yeah. And for me, when working on a piece, it's always about trying to find out always, nearly, always about trying to find out where change might come. What's the point of making this work unless we rub up against the change of something, or at least we turn our gaze towards something that needs to be thought about. And yes, in the world that you are describing, it's more important than ever not, not less important. Okay, so now then, you've set up The Hip Hop Theatre Academy with Sadler’s Wells East. You’re obviously Associate Artist at Sadler’s Wells, and you've set up a two year course for students aged 16 to 19 to offer intensive practical training in hip hop performing arts with a focus on live performance and theatre production at an international standard. So that's quite exciting and I suspect it feels a bit a long overdue for you.
How does that feel? And yeah. How does it feel that it's all actually happening right now?
Jonzi D: It feels very exciting. Definitely. Trepidation. Can’t make out that that's not there. What has been, what originally felt a little bit like a threat, but actually is beautiful, is the fact that there are lots of educational establishments that are beginning to take hip hop seriously now.
And there's a lot of fledgling courses as part of dance courses where there's a hip hop element or there's a street dance element, or whatever terminology is used, ‘World Dance’. And that term ‘World Dance’ It really says a lot about what needs to change in the world today, because classical ballet has been sold across the world. Why is that not ‘World Dance’? You know what I mean? Anyway. I think what's really important is that all everything's acknowledged and everything's given the power that it deserves. So this hip hop theatre academy is focusing on Breaking, Popping and hip hop dance technique, which is more of the social dance aspects of hip hop dance.
I really want to look at the harder techniques of the culture, because these are the fundamental pillars of the culture. I also expect all of the dancers to rap and all of the rappers to dance, because I'm looking at the musical theatre context of educating in hip hop also. The first generation of hip hoppers, generally we all did all of the elements of the culture.
Let's say there's four main pillars, which is the dance DJing, rapping and graffiti. Yeah. And when we first receive the culture through the TV and through music, it was presented in a way in which these four things are important. So we did them all in that first generation, as the cultures developed, each of the aspects have kind of gone off in their own direction to develop even more so, because obviously if you're a breaker and you're trying to rap and do DJ and graffitiing, you're doing less time breaking.
So what's happening now is that people are just focused in, on their specific areas. And I think that’s really good when you want to up the technical level of things. But I also think that there's an element of holistic culture that maybe we're missing out on a little bit. So that was one of the things that was important about doing ‘Breakin Conventions’, all of the cultural elements of hip hop presented, and for the school, I'd like to create individuals that are skilled in different elements of hip hop culture, the verbal, as well as the physical, as well as the mental. Yeah, because I think there is a mentality that's grown out of hip hop, you know what I mean? And it is a lot to do with connecting with people. And if we look at hip hop culture and what it's done over the last 20 years, that's one thing you cannot deny, the ability to connect cultures, connect nationalities connect ages is unsurpassable by anything else.
Lou: And so will they also be, cause it's The Hip hop Theatre Academy, will they also be learning theatre skills?
Jonzi D: Absolutely, I forgot about that bit, okay so. Part of the ‘Breakin Convention’ experience over the years, since the beginning has been this desire to help develop people's theatrical practice. So actually before Breaking Convention, I was doing an event that I called the ‘Surgery’, which is bringing hip hop artists who have had none or very little experience in theatre to see what we can do with their skill in a theatrical context. So we, when I joined ‘Breakin Convention’, sorry, when ‘Breakin Convention’ and ‘Jonzi D Productions’ joined forces in the late, probably around 2009, I then rebranded it as ‘Open Art Surgery’ and it started to become a feeder into the ‘Breakin Convention Festival’.
We then developed another project called ‘Back To The Lab’, which was a two- week professional development project. So ‘Open Art Surgery’ was a one-week one, which resulted in a performance and some Q and A. Then we did ‘Back To The Lab’, which was a two-week project focusing on more experienced choreography which ended in a performance, I guess, a work in progress performance.
And now we've developed that, and we're doing something called ‘Emerge And See’. I don't know if you've noticed that there is a theme going on with all of the titles and it is about, it's like a hospital. It is like, okay, so you've got an idea that we need to help fix and develop, you know, and you put back together, you know, and the emergency project starts with the week-long process.
Then we have another two weeks in which people can finish their 15 to 20-minute pieces and then we present that. This next one's gonna be at Patrick studios in the Birmingham Hippodrome, the one previous to that was at Dance City in Newcastle. It's also very much about bringing it out of London and making, and addressing and identifying all of the hip hop that happens all over the country, not just in London.
So, these projects are going to be, I guess, a much more concentrated version of the school. So we've developed loads of different techniques as to how to present theatrical ideas, dramaturgy, exploration of ideas, of how to use repetition and stuff like that. And we're going to just do that. Those are, I'd say, a typical day will be technique class, be it breaking or whatever dance in the morning. We'll probably have two dance classes. Then I imagine we'll do a rap session. We'll probably do the rap sessions about three times in the week, and then in the afternoon is going to be focused on different theatrical techniques. Basically, I'd like to bring different practitioners from across the world of theatre to be able to help. We're also going to be doing lots of theory, which is understanding hip hop and then seeing how we can understand that in a theatrical context as well.
And there's also music, sorry. There's also beat making classes. So basically, on your computer, and I'm assuming everybody's got a computer now, we'll have classes. And I'd like to be able to give people software so that they can create their own music to make their own dance, yeah? And I think one of the things I want from the school is that everybody learns everything, yeah, for the first year. And then the second year you can then focus in on whatever you want to specialise in up till the end of the project. It's so exciting because there's so many elements to it, but I do want to really focus in and, and keep it streamlined when it comes to, what's the, what's the intent?
And what I want is for people to come out of their skilled, as leaders and as followers. I want them to learn both things because we need both things. You know what I mean? Everybody needs to be their own leader and their own follower, and that everybody needs to learn how to be a team player, which involves leadership and following as well. So, oh my goodness. There's just so much.
Lou: So much, and it's so exciting. You know, lucky, whoever comes to this place I'm interested in, if in amongst that, there's a place for politics really, or philosophy or poetry in terms of people finding their voice and finding what it is they want to use their skills for. Is there a formal place for that or is that, you know, you find out as you're developing their work?
Jonzi D: Well, I think part of learning about hip hop, you will naturally learn about the struggle in this socioeconomic context, yeah? And that is political in essence. And I'd like people to be able to use that in their choices that they make.
I mean, even in relation to things like climate change, you know what I mean? I'd like to have that infused in the practice of the artists. You know what I mean? Anti-racism you know, this is central to hip hop culture, and it's been proven through hip hop culture that anti-racism is, it can be real, and I mean, we don't have to live in a institutionally racist society if we, as a community, instil that in our practice every day. So I think that there will be political, It's not going to be like, we're going to do a politics class because our politics underpins everything.
Lou: Okay. And how does it feel then to, be coming, you know, it comes from the streets, comes from marginalised voices, and now you've got a really posh, shiny building with Sadler’s Wells written all over it.
What impact is that going to have and what happens to the edges then, and are the new edges appearing? You know, not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's interesting when it is so inherent to give it a mainstream position isn't it? What were your thoughts about that?
Jonzi D: It is. I think the mainstream position has been mainstream for a good 20 years you know? I think hip hop culture has been visible for a long time now, probably more visible than whatever contemporary dance culture is. But the visibility of hip hop is uncontestable, do you know what I mean? whole films are being made. The greatest actors in the world used to be rappers. You know, so many actors are ex rappers, you know? As we've seen as hip hop dance theatre is becoming very popular and very essential to contemporary dance practice now, contemporary life actually. And so I think that the, the idea of going into a shiny, you know, institutionalised building says more about the breakdown of cultural apartheid that we've taken for granted for years, we've just taken it for granted that these buildings belong to rich white people. That's where they do their culture yeah? And right now, we're saying, no, that's not fair.
Lou: Yeah, of course. And that's really exciting and quite right too, but I've heard, you know, several versions of this in the past where dance companies or dance students have come from slightly knackered warehousy brick buildings where they belong, because it's, I think it’s certainly where I'm happiest, into beautiful glass buildings with perfect floors, not messy spaces, and it's affected the work in a negative way. So it's also, of course it's about taking space and, and earning and owning that space, but there's also potentially something a bit intimidating that in that, and also a bit what can I say deadening in that?
But I'm sure that I know I'm sure that won't happen, but I have heard people say that has happened to their students and they've had to work against that, have to work even harder to allow the, the authenticity and the, the joy of it all to come out. Does that make sense?
Jonzi D: Yes, I do. And I think that that joy exists in the heart of the practitioner that doesn't exist in the bricks and mortar, Yeah? Some would argue that and say, no, actually the foundation of these buildings are built upon racism, you know classism, yeah? But the bricks and mortar of this building in east bank is not going to be built on those premises already. We're talking about, we're not parachuting in culture. We're looking for culture that exists in East London. There's loads of it. I'm one of them. I'm from Bow originally right? I mean, so I feel very strongly about the fact that we do not ghetto-ise culture, yeah? We elevate culture and it means going to shiny new buildings that understand the culture that we're bringing to the building.
Lou: Okay. Really exciting, really obviously extremely positive and yet long overdue, but like many sectors in the arts, I think there's still work to be done, particularly in terms of the representation of women and also LGBTQ plus communities. What, what needs to be done there and what’s the plan do you think?
Jonzi D: think, or I think that if you look at ‘Breakin Convention Sadler’s’ programming, you'll see that we do program quite diversely, particularly in relation to gender. And it's not always been like that. It has been a challenge in the past, but we've really made that an important part of our programming over the last few years. I also think the same for the LGBTQI community as well. We've had, I remember there was a really lovely piece that we had two B girls and two male voguers, and the whole point of the piece to, mix up gender expectation with dance. I think ultimately, it's about living it and not talking it, practicing it, you know what I mean? And not just saying we're going to practice it. And I think that we've been quite good at that.
Lou: Great. Okay. So obviously you're quite busy. We've got that. Where does your own work fit into this in your spare time, on a Sunday afternoon? Are you making any work of your own at the moment?
Jonzi D: I am. It's not necessarily my work, but I'm very, very excited about this project that I'm doing with the amazing Jade Hackett as the choreography and Director of a piece in which we are working with the RnB artist called Omar. And we're creating a musical featuring all of his, or should I say, The whole of the music has been created by Omar, lots of old tracks that we know from back in the day. And he said, he's, he might even do some new ones for us, but that's what I'm working on in the moment. We've got an amazing cast. It really is a musical that we're going for. We want to go for West End, you know? We want a live band on stage. We want you know, loads of dancers. And we want to do a piece that is not reliant on black trauma as entertainment, yeah? This has been something that we've seen quite a bit lately where the inclusion of black voices within theatre, within TV, whatever, is usually looking at our trauma as being the material, yeah? Omar's music is all about love, things about love in different ways. And he kind of echoes some of the music of the sixties and seventies, which had love at it’s core, you know? And we thought, we need that message today, yeah? We know how hard it is out there, but do we know how much love there is also?
Lou: Gorgeous! And when is that? When can we see that?
Jonzi D: That's not gonna happen until let's say early 25.
Lou: Okay. Alright. You’ll keep us waiting a little while, but you've got stuff to be getting on with haven't you in the meantime. Okay. Just to finish off, then I have a habit of pulling questions out of an envelope, so we’ll just do a couple, really quickly.
Is there anything you want to do in dance that you haven't yet done?
Jonzi D: Okay. There's an obvious answer to that, which is of course there's always something new. My inquisitive mind is always excited about what's round the corner. But I will also say that I'm in a community where I know lots of amazing artists. I have to say, I find a lot of joy in bringing other people's vision to light, you know?
Yes, I've got some ideas, but I'm not as excited about my ideas as I am about the next generations ideas. And I'd rather be that guy that holds the door open. “Ooh, just come on, Ooh, that's a great idea, come in you, Oh, we love your idea” You know what I mean? And I mean, saying that, you know, every time I, every now and again, I'll sit back and I'll, or maybe I'll watch a piece of work, and I'll be inspired and think, Ooh, I think I want to do something, you know, so I'm not going to promise anything.
Lou: Okay. Except to keep going and be full of joy. And actually, maybe you just answered this next question, which is when are you at your professional happiest?
Jonzi D: Ah, okay. Let's revise that.
Okay. At my professional happiest, yes. I am happy helping to develop amazing work. I have to say I watched Ivan Blackstock's ‘Trap Lords’ recently. I had a little sprinkling of work of myself in the creation of that piece. And it makes me so happy that I was part of that amazing work, that amazing vision that Ivan had. So that makes me really happy.
But your question has arisen something within me, that is questioning the lack of work that I am actually making. And it is uneasy. It is uneasy cause I know that if I really put my head on it, I think I can create something beautiful and relevant.
I'll tell you what though, I've been getting into filmmaking quite a bit. And about two and a half years now, two years ago, I created a film called ‘Our Bodies Back’, which came as a result of the conversation I had with Alistair around about the time of the murder of George Floyd. And yeah, I was just ranting basically. I guess I felt like I wanted to say something.
And he said, “Hey, Jonz, here's a commission. Say something”. So I made a short film featuring three women and the poetry of Jessica Care Moore and it went down really well. So much so that I ended up bringing them over to London. I didn't get all of the girls, but I had one girl Axelle Munezero, Jessica, Care Moore doing poetry, and Soweto Kinch on saxophone and it was absolutely beautiful live. And just before that I did the, I guess the male version of, their kind of sister, brother films. The next one is the poetry of Saul Williams and I have three dancers, one in New York called [Drew Dollars]. Another guy in Uganda …. I think he danced his from, and the final guy in, outside the houses of parliament actually, he's a Crump dancer called Theo. And the guy in Uganda's called Abdul. So I'm really excited about that. And I think to answer your question again, is thatI am going to focus on making short choreo poetry, dance films. That is where I'm getting a buzz.
Lou: Well, I can't wait to see those. I saw the ones you've just described and they were beautiful, so please find some time in your busy schedule to do that. But for now, Jonzi D, it's total pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for your time.
Jonzi D: Absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for the interview. And I'm so glad I did it!
Lou: Yay, so am I!
