Ep. 17: Your Memory Is Real: Belonging, Identity, and the Stories We Carry

Benjamin Thomas: Welcome to the Double Vision Podcast. We are identical twin sisters who grew up with a rare retinal condition, which basically means we've had to do a lot of adapting. My name is Janelle and I'm the oldest by four whole minutes, so naturally I get to go first. And I'm Joy. A lot of our life has been problem solving, a lot of feelings, and realizing that we're probably not the only ones navigating this. I work as a therapist and I tend to slow things down and look for what's steady underneath it all. And I'm a writer and creative. I have a background in education and I navigate the emotional journey in real time. She does, and we balance each other out. Janelle keeps one foot on the ground, and Joy keeps things honest and alive. On Double Vision Podcast, we talk about the social and emotional experience of being in a body. The stuff we all deal with. Identity, belonging, and self-trust. We talk about anxiety and overthinking and what it looks like to advocate for yourself and keep going, even when it's hard. We make space for the parts that don't show up on paper but shape our whole lives. If you've ever felt like you're trying to figure out how to be yourself out loud, you're in the right place. Welcome back, Double Vision Listeners. This is Joy, and we are here for part two of our conversation with Krishna Washburn. Krishna is the artistic director and founder of the Dark Room Ballet in New York City. And for her full bio, you can see the show notes or their previous episode where we really dive into all the incredible things she's doing. I mean, this woman, she is not only going to have the very first chapter on blind dance instruction in the Oxford Encyclopedia of Dance, but she has trained over 1500 dancers from pre-professionals to amateurs in methods that have actually been passed down from blind teacher to blind teacher, only through oral tradition. I was so moved by the course that I took with her that I needed to sit down for a conversation. And I know Janelle was deeply touched by this conversation as well as I know you will be. I think for anyone sighted or blind who has struggled in this world to feel seen, to feel known, there is something about her methodology and her philosophy of not only dance, but also of life that will leave you with some answers and also with some questions. I think that She really challenged my view on where we even are with accessibility in today's day and age and where we are with higher education. There's so many topics this touches on that speak truth to many areas of our life and society and shared humanity. I'm really looking forward to sharing this conversation today. This is Joy again and the the same bravado and care that you put into audio description and that our listeners can obviously hear is something that you put into each and every class. It's very, very apparent. You I know spend hours and hours and hours preparing for each class that you teach. You memorize every word. There are no ums. There are no it is a well oiled script, ⁓ in a way. I think one of the most moving parts for me was just to give our listeners a little you know snippet is that you use tape to kind of orient yourself. I didn't make that up by the way, that isn't old traditional tool of blind dancers. Okay. That is good to know. ⁓ and and so we each at home, you know, we're on we're on Zoom of course and so we each have our tape and we can make it, you know, whatever texture, whatever we want. And then we have our socks on so that we can ⁓ you know, feel and thin enough socks and, you know, all of the things. But the the most moving part for of me f of that first class is I don't know if you had a name, was it the blind walk across the floor tape? Is that the name of it? I don't know. It's it technically if I go into like my little voice notes, the classes that I teach hardly exist anywhere, right? They mostly live exclusively in my memory. And ⁓ I call it officially like walking with turned out legs, learning how to do that transfer of weight while maintaining turnout and using the tape for orientation in space. I learned that from my own blind teacher. A lot of people don't realize. They think like we all have to reinvent the wheel. That's not true. There have been blind dancers probably as long as there have been dancers. I think that whenever people hear, like, ⁓ my God, like there's this blind lady who teaches ballet class, I'm like, you think I'm the first? You never heard of Alicia Alonso? So ⁓ Alicia Alonso is a famous blind dancer in Cuba, was like the director of all Cuban ballet for like seventy years. I don't get into her, but like, you know, people act like this is something new. I mean, there is even I don't know, maybe academics would disagree with me, but I believe there's actually evidence that there was ⁓ at least one professional blind dancer living in Spain in like fifteen hundreds. So like This is nothing new. This is part of who we are. Oral tradition, right? Like passed down. Yes, it's an oral tradition. Yeah, that you won't find a textbook or anything. You're not gonna find anything to read. Like this is just oral tradition, yes. Like learning how to walk with turned out legs, like that came from a memory of my own experience with my own blind teacher. I remember her feeling quite anxious and nervous about going for that. First, like independent walk. And I was like, you know, I don't want to be by myself. Could you please come close to me? And she's like, ⁓ I'll just walk over here. I'll just walk over here. And you be on your tape, you're fine. I'm like, am I really? She's like, no, you're fine. To learn that I could trust my own perception and to present myself and to understand that what I was. Was something real, and that I wasn't just an inferior version of a sighted dancer, that I was my own thing, that a blind dancer is their own thing. And that we do have our own history, our own aesthetic, our own beauty, our own skills, our own talent. To be able to impart that on the first day. That I get to work with a new group of dancers so that they understand, like, no, no, no, I'm not presenting this as like, ⁓ this is adaptive ballet. Uh-uh. That's not what this is. This is what we do. This is how you can show up in the world with us. You can learn to trust your own perceptions. You don't need anyone else to tell you how you feel. We actually have some snippets of audio clips from the class recordings, and I'd love for us to sit back and listen to parts of that walk across the tape so that our listeners can also hear it. This is where we present ourselves. This is where we are meant to be. This is our initiation. Turn yourself around, get the right ball of the foot on the tape, join it in first position with the left foot on the floor. With each step, we will move our arms. Bring that right foot forward on the tape and roll. Weight on the ball foot, weight on the heel. As the heel takes the torso weight, the arms float to first position out in front of the heart. Left leg glides from back to front and we step on that left foot. Weight in the heel. Stretch that left knee, arms float up to high fifth, and the right leg glides through from back to front on the tape. Hold the turnout, step on the right foot, heel reaches deep. Those arms open to the sides like wings. Keep walking, keep walking forward and present yourself. Take a step forward and the arms float to first. Take a step forward and the arms float to high fifth with your long neck. Take a step forward, arms open to second position. Take a step forward and the arms float down to low fifth position. Present yourself. This is where you're meant to be. Take a step forward and the arms float to first. Take a step forward and the arms float to high fifth. Take a step forward and the arms open to second. And take a step forward and the arms come down to low fifth. And the two legs join together in first position and pause for a moment. This is where you're supposed to be at this moment now. I love that. And you can feel it in your voice when you you even say, you know, you have this one song that you play and you're like, present yourself. You are presenting yourself and you get the feeling that you're not just talking to us as dance students and it's not just about dance. It's like, how are you gonna present yourself in life? At least that's what I from it. ⁓ and that's what I felt from it. And I felt that sense of empowerment. It was, it was very moving. And I almost like my husband was in the other room and all of a sudden I felt this like feeling of like, okay, vacate the everybody leave the house. Like this is a moment that I need like to be on my own and experience this because this is, you know, was very was very moving and touching as, you know, somebody who actually is not a trained dancer at all. Like I said, my daughter is a trained dancer. It's not a world that I've ever felt like I, you know, even had No, I I kinda took a couple of dance classes when I was younger. I had a little bit better vision, but it doesn't I don't know. It just it never felt like a world that I could really be a part of. And so I think this opened up a lot more for me taking your course than just, you know, a class and ⁓ just how you speak and say everything. And I think I've shared that one of the f my favorite parts of classes is near the end, ⁓ after the technique portion is over where you have this ⁓ kind of visualization in a sense that you have us do and it's there's a different theme every week. But the main part of it that I always remember is you saying like you have us think back whether it's about courage or whether it's about the roles that we play in in our lives. And you always say, you know, your memory is real. Trust your memory. This experience is real. And I'm wondering I I know that this is part of, you know, ballet and maybe pedagogy in a way is is about memory and that's part of your philosophy. Is that this gets into the real weeds about like who I am as an artist and who I am as a teacher. Like I'm a real teacher. I have a master's of education. And I've been I was tried by fire and ice in a New York City public school. Like nothing can scare me. Like as an educator, like I am tough as nails. Because I went through Royal Academy of Dance, like the British style of. Ballet training in my youth. At the end of class, there is ⁓ what is known as reverence. Reverence is when the dancers thank the teacher for class and the teacher thanks the students for coming. It is generally kind of like a little curtsy or bow, and also if there is the accompanist, which in my class is my husband Jonathan. ⁓ you know on the volume knob balancing every song as we move through it so it never overrides my voice. I wanted to do something different with my reverence. In addition to s having studied ballet, I've studied a lot of other styles of dance. And I think second to ballet The form that I have studied the most is probably ⁓ butto. ⁓ but is not even really a dance style, it's more of an artistic philosophy that emerged in Japan after World War II. It puts a primacy on human memory and the value of human memory. I am of the opinion that the memories of blind and visually impaired people. Are not given the same sort of weight as other people. Just because we don't see, that does not mean that our memories are any less complete. They are ours. They are complete as we experience them and they are real. I cannot count how many times in my own life that I have had people come to me. Say, like, is that what really happened? Are you sure? Are you sure that that's what really happened? Are you sure you experienced an ableist thing? And it's like, yeah, yeah, I actually am sure. I know what I experienced. I know what my life has been. And I wanted to remind all of you who are my students are the most important people in my life. To remember and know your memories are real. They are complete. They are yours. Never let anyone take that away from you because it is from your memory that that is where art comes from. It is from immersion in our memory. Like I said, there's hardly any evidence that I have taught, I don't know, somewhere around 300 open level classes I have taught. 14 cycles of intro at this point. Like there's no archaeologist will find any evidence that I did this, but it lives in me because I remember and it's real. So that process of, you know, finding that bodily position as we do, like two hands press into the heart, that is the opposite position that our upper back is in for the majority of ballet classes. ⁓ Total posture release. So shoulder blades spread apart, tailbone curls under. So we get the lower back curve. Head drops. Exhale. So we're giving a release from all of the formal study of memory. And now we're going into the emotional study of memory. And it is the only word that I will say in class, those words in the reverence for each class are the only ones that I do not rehearse and I do not memorize and I do not write in advance. They are the only ones that are improvised and they come to me in the moment. Whatever memories we are investigating, and I never want them to be purely ⁓ anodyne or purely positive, because that's not human experience. And we are allowed to touch those difficult memories. We are allowed to do that. They belong to us. They are ours. We do not have to be forced to hide them away. We are allowed to have them, to remind everyone. Your memory is real. And to allow every person to collect those memories. Let it burst out through ether, through The internet through our cameras, through our microphones, to one another, this transfer of knowledge and wisdom and memory that we have, and to then be able to collect it, collect it, all of it, and make it our own, as it has been shared with us. That I feel was what I wanted to make my reverence process. It's not necessarily the same kind of formal show of gratitude, but it is still. Gratitude. It integrates not only, ⁓ my teacher thanks me, I thank my teacher, but also we're all each one of us thanking ourselves for existing, for being there, for remembering. This is Janelle. And as I've listening to you share, Krishna, I surprisingly have tears ⁓ just running down my face right now, streaming down my face. I was not expecting this. And think what's really striking me at at my core is just how healing it feels to have someone verbalize. your memories are real because so much of my work as a trauma therapist is really allowing people to trust themselves and trust their memories versus the way the world so dismisses and tries to erase sometimes what what we're really experiencing and just how harmful that is. And so I just want to acknowledge how healing it is just to hear That you're providing this really what I consider healing support to so many people. I mean, blind or not blind, I think all of us as humans need to be validated in our experiences of knowing, knowing that like deep knowing within ourselves. We know what we experienced, and that's incredibly powerful. So I just wanted to express some gratitude for. The ways that you're verbalizing that and integrating that into your classes. I just want to say thank you to you, Janelle, for being a trauma therapist because I all would not be here talking with you if I had not had one myself. Truly, when we think about what it takes to be an artist, you need to be able to be present with yourself. be connected to the world in some way. That is the power of the art that you create. I think sometimes we live in a reactionary period right now. I think we all know this to be true, right? Yes. There is maybe a diminishment of the importance of art in the life of a human being right now. I would argue that, in my opinion at least, Art is the single most important thing in the sustenance of a human being's emotional life. Like, if it's not there, like how do you know? How do you know yourself? How do you know that there are other people who feel the same way that you do, that you're not alone without it? Every emotion that each one of us feels. No one has had a unique emotion. None of us have come up with one that's new. We have all experienced these feelings. All of us. Even the people who say that they haven't. I don't think that's true. Just not aware of it. We've all gone through all of the emotions and it goes back like I think even before we were people. I think it goes back deep evolutionary time. That's my opinion anyway. But it's so easy to feel like I'm the one who's different. I'm the one who is not supposed to be here. I'm the one who doesn't belong. And when you're a blind person trying to live in dance world, boy, ⁓ boy, do you feel like that. I'm the one who's different. I'm the one who's not welcome. I'm the one who's not supposed to be here. That's not true. All of us have had the same emotional experiences throughout our lives. And art is the way that we communicate that with one another in a way that is authentic and that can actually create those connections. And when we deny disabled people, when we deny blind and visually impaired people access to art, we leave them out of that important global com like conversation of like what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to have human feelings? And then we're left over here thinking like, ⁓ no. I'm the only one who feels this way. And that's why I don't think like audio description is just like, ⁓ it's an access thing. It's like ⁓ it's a legal requirement. No, no, no, no, no. It is a moral imperative. It is. And I this is Joy again. I I think the common humanity that is felt through art for me as a blind woman in the past, I've really I love writing and I feel like it's it's my art of choice. And yet I've in some ways felt like, ⁓ this is the art that I can do because, you know, obviously writing and reading, like that's, you know, whether it be through some people who read braille or through ⁓ digital access, that's something that can easily be accessed. Music, it feels like it's been open to, you know, visually impaired populations. And yet it yeah, that's why again, this world of dance, and again, something that my daughter has done for years. So I felt that connection in some ways because of her, where I would go to tons and tons of performances that I would just sit and I couldn't tell what was going on. And my husband would try to lean over and whisper what was happening. And so for me it was, you know, kind of circling back to the beginning, it was this incredible milestone when I had heard about this audio describer in Las Vegas who I can't remember, it was like a friend of a friend of a friend who ⁓ I ended up c getting connected with who I hired to do some of these. And she would say everything with such the emotion of what the dance the facial expressions, her costume. She would describe everything really ⁓ to you know to the point but it but it was not live, you know what I mean? And I think that was the piece. So if there was some a little nuance or I hadn't pressed play at the exact same time, then I wouldn't be with the audience. I wouldn't be, you know, exactly where they are, which kind of felt disconnecting. And so again, I I haven't experienced this. Yeah. But Janelle and I are definitely planning to buy tickets to the Pacific Northwest Ballet and experience that. And ⁓ And I I know some of the online ones that you've been a part of producing, I I do want to experience as well. And I think that is why I really wanted to have you come on this podcast because it's like you meet somebody sometimes who you're like, first of all, you're doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing in this world. You just get that sense of like, ⁓ my gosh, I have goosebumps when I talk to this person. And they are exactly filling the world with goodness and with something that is needed. And that's how I felt the very first conversation with you, Krishna. And that's why I know our listeners are going to experience this conversation as well, or what I hope they will. Yeah, I am just so grateful that you were willing to to come on and and talk with us. And and I am curious, I know you talked about blind answers existing for centuries. And yet there is still ableism that exists. There is, and I know this is like a topic that could be a whole episode in and of itself. ⁓ yeah. And yet I am wondering where you think we are at this point as far as inclusion in dance spaces. ⁓ where where do we have to go and where are we at and where have we come from? All in one minute. We're not even at the starting line yet, in my opinion. And I'm someone who Had a professional dance career for like 10 years in New York City. And I'm saying we're not even at the starting line. We're not even at the beginning, truly, in terms of equity for blind and visually impaired dancers. Here's how I know: I personally am friends. I send them Christmas cards. Okay. I am friends with. all of the professional blind dancers in the United States. I shouldn't be. There should be too many for me to be friends with all of them. Secondly, and this is something that I actually have like a deep sense of sadness and regret in regards to. Almost none of the performances that I was in As a professional dancer in New York City with different dance companies and different choreographers, almost none of them were audio described. Almost none. I can think of only two projects that I was a part of that had audio description. And I performed almost constantly for a decade. I would be there at dress rehearsal, I remember, and I'd just be like, Why do I feel so upset? Why do I hate this so much? And you know, you have to go through that process and realize, like, ⁓ because I couldn't go to my own show. That's why. That's why I feel upset. And I had to actually like quit jobs at a certain point. Like the pandemic was in a way a big gift to me because I had to like say to different companies I worked with, I'm like, listen, I got quit. I can't continue to do work that's not Audio described. I can't do that anymore. That's the next phase of my career. Like I can't. I can't. Now I'm an educator only. Like I don't perform. And actually, I prefer being a teacher. ⁓ I love being a teacher. This was always the goal. This is what I wanted to be when I was three. But I I mentor a lot of young, ⁓ blind and visually impaired performers and choreographers. And I have one mentee, his name is ⁓ Davian Robinson, DJ Robinson, and He I think he is like the most important choreographer of his generation. He does really beautiful ⁓ described performances in North Carolina and he's doing research and teaching choreography currently through Dark of Badley. Come take class with DJ. His next workshop is August seventh. What he has had to go through, it boggles the mind for me. Like I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say his business, but like what he has to endure in order to like just exist, he can't just show up and say, like, ⁓ hello, I'm the choreographer. He has to explain, like, no, I understand that I'm a blind person, but I'm like none of that. That's why he works for me. Like one of the nice things about being able to hire blind faculty at Darker Ballet is like they can have a job where they don't have to like justify like, no, no, no, I know that I'm blind, but I I really am. what I say I am, I promise. Like I could just be like, no, I know that this is your job and you just come and you do what what you do as I trust you. I could never get a job as a ballet teacher in a studio in New York. Are you kidding me? Never. That's why I had to do this. And now I'm I'm locked in. I'm stuck being the artistic director of Darker Ballet like forever now. I can't go like into anonymity and be like, ⁓ no, I just I teach ⁓ such and such class at this time slot at parry dance or whatever. I can't that that's never gonna be me. Like the only way in order for me to actually do what I know how to do is literally to have like created this whole system with grants and a fiscal sponsor. It's no one believed that I am what I am. And I'm like, I'm not gonna do that to other people. That's ridiculous. It's a terrible thing to do. Like right now, there is an amazing course going on. It's closed. People can't register for it anymore. ⁓ but I have Bill Porter, who is a professor at Leslie University in Boston. ⁓ he is visual artist and he's teaching a studio arts course on Thursday nights. Like, it's an amazing class. Like, I've sat in Bill's class. He's an incredible educator. But like when I first met him, I'm like, hey, Bill. You want to come work for me? He was like, okay, but listen. And I'm like, not here. You don't have to give me the but listen. I already know. Like you're a professor of visual arts for like years and years. You have gallery shows all the time. You don't need to explain who you are. I already know. Why in 2026 do we still not have our own institution of higher learning? Blind people. Why? Yeah, because the deaf community does. Why don't we have it? And people say, ⁓ it's because there's no such thing as blind culture. I disagree. Same. We do so have culture. And culture is what we build together. I mean, that's literally what we're doing right now in this conversation and the work that each of us are doing in our respective areas. I'm guessing curious, I mean, this is kind of a big question for the end of an interview or the close, but like as people are listening We have listeners who are are part of the blind community and then those who are maybe more allies. And I wonder what can we be doing to support the arts and to grow this so that we can even get to the starting line that you described earlier that we're not even at yet. Like what if you had an ask or some guidance for all of us, what might that sound like? I can't give all the answers, but I give you like three little action items. That people can do. Number one, take darkroom ballet class. Just take them. Even if you're like, I think this is gonna be hard. I think I'm not gonna understand. No, no, no. You'll be fine. Just register and come. How do you register? You just send an email to info at darkroomballet.com and say, Hi, can I take this class? And then we say yes. And then you have Be a certain age, Krishna. You have to be an adult. You have to be 18. And you need to be blind, right? If you're taking the actual dance classes. If you are taking intro to ballet, yes, you have to be blind or visually impaired. Other courses, though, you could be anybody. We don't say no to anyone, but it is understood like this is blind culture. And if you're a cited person, coming over here, understand you're in the minority. Like this, you're not gonna be served. This is not for you. My open level class on Monday night, I get sighted people regularly. And I always tell them, I'm like, listen, I don't reverse movement. I'm not dancing for the camera. It is more important that the words I say as I am dancing are accurate than for me to reverse movement for the likes of you. Because everybody else in here needs to just hear me be precise with my language. as I narrate our dance together. So and also like I'm not facing the camera straight on. I'm on the tape line. I don't use the same body posture that a sighted dancer does. I use blind people's posture, which is using the back body to balance instead of the front body because we can't stare at things. Like I'm always like, listen, this isn't for you, but you could come. And honestly a lot of them tell me like, you know what, I actually like your class the best. You're my favorite teacher. I'm like, great. Keep coming to class then. Because the only reason why we exist is the only reason why we receive the funding that we do is because people come. The only metric that matters is how many people came. That's it. That's the only thing that keeps us existing is people coming. So that's thing number one. Support blind educators, blind teaching artists. Support yourself as a blind artist. That's thing number one, and that costs nothing. Thing number two, if you know of a performing arts organization that maybe does, maybe doesn't have an audio description program, tell them to contact us at Darkroom Ballet and let us ruin their day. A lot of people say, you know, like, ⁓ you know, you should advocate yourself. For audio description with performing arts organizations in your community. Unlike most people are not experts in this field in the way that the darkroom ballet community is. Like we this is what we do over here. Just let us do it. We'll be more effective. And we can give them literally free training ⁓ Have them Get be in touch with us here at Darkroom Ballet so that way they can start doing right by the blind and visually impaired people in their communities. That's thing number two. Thing number three: if you know of a performance with a real audio describer, like if you're in Pittsburgh and you're going to Pittsburgh Ballet Theater and Mary Ann Graziano is there, you go to that show. Pick that one. Do not pick the show that says audio description available upon request. Mm-mm mm-mm. That performing arts venue has not thought about you and does not care about you. Don't go to that show. Go to the show with a real audio describer if it is available to you. You go to Miami, go to the Arshd Center, go to Miami City Ballet, listen to Judith and Alina and all of the beautiful people there. That are the best audio describers in the world. Miami City Ballet is exceptional, amazing. You go up to Seattle, you go and enjoy a show with Allison. That's what's it. If you can choose a performance with a real audio describer, go and make sure that you tell that performing arts venue. Hey. I love your audio describer. Your audio describer is incredible. That teaches them something. If you go to a show and there's audio description and you get that icky feeling, like I did at Alvin Ailey's Revelations, like I know this isn't it. I know I'm not getting the show for real. Tell them your AD was misleading and Ineffective. Please contact Dark Room Valet. This is Joy again. And your impact on my life and so many others, it's so felt. I mean, at the end of our eight-week session, the number of people that shared the impact that you had, and all types of beat from beginners to professional dancers, people who you as you had described, just have the heart. of a dancer. And so whether there are even people with other multiple disabilities that you were accepting them in this class and everybody was kind of on an even ⁓ playing field, so to speak, ⁓ it was it was really moving to hear all of the different experiences and the deep gratitude people were expressing to you, Krishna. You are so loved in this community. And again, I'm just I'm grateful that you came to talk with us today. Thank you so much, Joy and Janelle for having me. This was lovely little afternoon. Have a beautiful rest of your weekend until next time. Thanks for listening to Double Vision Podcast. The stories and perspectives shared here reflect our own lived experiences with blindness and disability and do not represent all blind or disabled people. This podcast is for conversation and reflection only and is not intended as therapy or a replacement for professional mental health care. If you're enjoying the show, please rate and review wherever you listen. You can also leave us a voice message at 949-414-24. 8336 or email MAIL at Doublevisionblog.com with any suggestions for future episodes or comments. Special thanks to our production team, TLS Productions and Benjamin J. Thomas.