00:00:00Doubles Tennis Strategy With Louis Kaye
00:13:43Empowering Coaching and Doubles Strategy
00:24:31Elevating Doubles Tennis Promotion
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Louis Cayer is one of the smartest doubles minds on the planet. He is a Senior Performance Advisor for the LTA, and the strategic brain behind every successful British ATP doubles player of the last few decades. He's worked with players doubles grand slam champions like Jamie Murray, Joe Salisbury, Neal Skupski, Henry Patten, and more.
I spoke with Louis at the 2025 Australian Open, several days before one of his teams (Henry Patten & Harri Heliovaara) won the title. Whether you're a coach or player, this is an episode you'll want to listen to more than once.
We explore the world of doubles coaching on the ATP Tour, the difference between the player and the performer, and how to effectively communicate. The discussion highlights Louis' coaching philosophy, evolving strategies, and passion for doubles within professional tennis.
- Why clear communication is key to good coaching, plus the exact phrases Louis uses with his players
- The significance of a supportive team environment in doubles
- Balancing team strengths vs opponents' weaknesses
- The evolving role of a coach: from directive to empowering
- Mistakes he's learned from in coaching
- ATP doubles changes & growth of the sport
This is one of my favorite conversations I've had on the podcast and Louis is someone I look up to greatly. I hope to speak with him again at some point to dive deeper into the puzzle that is doubles strategy.
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So I've been doing this podcast for almost five years now and my favorite conversations are with those coaches or players who are able to articulate an idea or get information across in as few words as possible.
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Way to think about this is they're basically the opposite of politicians.
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You can imagine a politician, at least especially here in the States, where they will get up there, they'll make a speech, they'll talk to the camera and they'll say absolutely nothing over the course of 30 minutes or an hour.
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Nothing gets across, no information gets across, they avoid questions and so on.
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Now my favorite interviews are the exact opposite of that.
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I will listen to five or 10 minutes.
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I will talk to someone for five or 10 minutes and I'll want to re-listen to that over and over again and I'll learn something new in that conversation every time, and that's what you're about to hear.
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Louis Kaye is possibly the best doubles coach in the world, is possibly the best doubles coach in the world.
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He is the senior performance analyst for the LTA.
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He works with all of the top British ATP doubles players and I chatted with him for about 25 minutes in Melbourne and we talk about the tournament.
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Overall.
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He's there managing five teams.
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I asked him how he's able to do that.
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He talks about how some of the results had been disappointing to that point.
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However, less than a week later, he did have a team win the Australian Open in Henry Patton and Harry Heliavara, whose direct coach I interviewed on the podcast several days before, which you've already heard.
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His name is Calvin Betten.
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So Louis talks about how he's able to manage five teams, his role with the LTA and how he's developed this kind of British tennis system and you're going to learn so much whether you're into ATP doubles or just trying to improve your own game strategically.
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I ask him how much weight he puts on his team's strengths versus the opponent's weaknesses.
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He talks about the difference between the performer and the player.
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He uses one of his teams as an example that recently had a bad performance in the Australian Open and he doesn't even analyze the match because they didn't show up mentally.
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So he talks a lot about that and it's got me thinking since that conversation a lot about how to make sure that I am getting the most out of players mentally before I even go to the strategic side.
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He also talks about what he's changed in terms of his coaching style over the last 20 years.
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We talk about mistakes that he's made.
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He talks a lot about language that he uses with his players, and this is something that I'm trying to improve on myself and I really, really want to emphasize it for you.
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This language might not only apply to coaches, but it also applies to you as a doubles partner.
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If you're somebody who listens to this podcast, you're very into strategy.
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You may not play with players who are as tactically minded as you all the time, so how do you get them bought in?
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It's a question I get a lot from a lot of you.
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I want to do I formation, but my partner just wants to do regular and he doesn't want to think about all that stuff.
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Well, Louie has some specific tips in terms of language that you can use to try to get them bought in to these types of tactics.
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He also talks about how the game has evolved, and then we talk about rule changes on the ATP tour and what we can do to make doubles more popular.
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So, whether you're into the pro tour, whether you're into your own game, you can hear how excited I am about this episode.
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I'm definitely going to re-listen to it here very soon and then probably multiple times throughout the year because I learned so much.
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But if you're involved in doubles at all, this is really a must-listen interview with Louis Kaye.
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So, without further delay, enjoy this super insightful and helpful conversation with Louis Kaye.
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Hey, everyone, welcome to the show.
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I am back in Melbourne and this time we have one of the best doubles coaches in the world on.
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We have Louis Caillet Louis, welcome.
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Nice Thanks for doing this with me, Will.
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Yeah, of course.
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So how has Melbourne been so far?
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You've got two teams into the quarterfinals tomorrow.
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How have the two weeks been for you?
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It's been quite good.
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I think we don't have any issue with practicing really here, of course, practicing on site, but they have NTC, albrecht, reser, stretchy.
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There's a lot of place.
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So training which is important because my job is to train the players is not an issue.
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I was here with four teams.
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We have a WhatsApp group and we time to practice that nobody practices at the same time.
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So the players have learned to work together, being very cooperative.
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They learn to support.
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They all wish that each of the other teams succeed in the tournament.
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There is no envy.
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So I'm quite pleased to have created what we call the British double system, the system where players support each other.
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So that was good.
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As a result, our concern two teams out of the four and a quarter.
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I was expecting a third team, which was Joe Salisbury and Neil Skubski.
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Let's say their opponent played very well, but they had a they will, they will agree a counter performance.
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Yeah, that was not the day for them, and so I was expecting which happened quite often to have three British teams in their quarters.
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So that's it.
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And there's a player, luke Johnson, who, who played with Sander Ahrens and they started to really progress well at the last 7-6, 7-6, but it was a very high-level match, so I'm quite pleased.
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Besides one match, I'm quite pleased with the way it went so far.
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Awesome.
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So we've got two British teams into the quarters.
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It sounds like you were expecting three, but you started.
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I emailed you before the tournament to try to set this up and you said you're managing five teams here, which seems like a ton.
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And then this morning I messaged you on WhatsApp knowing that neither of your two teams in the quarters played today, thinking you'd have more free time, and you sent me a message saying that you were on court from 8 am to 4 pm, so you seem unbelievably busy.
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How do you manage five teams?
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How does this all work for you?
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It seems very.
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It is very difficult.
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A few years ago the Lta said we have to become decentralized, so therefore each team needed a traveling coach.
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So even if I'm often the kind of a bracket leading coach because sometimes the traveling coach I know them already, like neil skupski, it's Ken which I coach for eight years, jules Salisbury, anyway, pretty much everybody I've either mentored them, coached them, so I guess I'm quite often the leading coach, giving the objective and all this, but I'm not traveling full time with them.
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And so my point is the traveling coach, take care of practice, court, practice ball, whatever all the organizational is done.
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So me, my main thing is to look at the match.
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We have someone scouting the opponents, like you do sometimes for the American.
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So, I receive, like today, the scouting.
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All the match are tagged so I can see, for example, for the next opponent, just their second serve on that court, just the return of just the I formation when they do it.
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I can see pretty much whatever I need.
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And then I'm part of the group to share what I think we need to do to beat them, and after their match, like today, right down to practice the thing that we need to do to beat them, and after their match, like today, right down to practice the thing that we need to refine for the next round.
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So it's quite easy because I have each team have their own traveling coach to do everything.
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So that's it.
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It's like we work really as a team, so each team has a coach and then I'm kind of I'll call that consultant, leading coach.
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It's kind of a funny role because I'm supplied by the LTA, but the players and their traveling coach.
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I agree that I'm leading the direction that the team should go, but it will not be possible without a traveling coach and it will not be possible without the sc coach and it will not be possible without the scouting done in London by the LTA scouting team.
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Of course yeah, and it's obviously a system that's had a ton of success over the years.
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I want to ask a strategy question real quick that I always like to ask people how much weight do you put on your team's strengths versus the opponent's weakness?
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I think every coach will say on big points you have to match your strengths against the weakness.
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So I think it's a mix of values, but we're going to.
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Ok, I look at the weakness and if it can be matched with this is the way we play, this is our strength and we can attack that weakness without changing our game style then we're going to do it.
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For sure, there is no problem with that.
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If their weakness means that we have to change our game style, then we're going to hesitate a tiny bit.
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So at that level the weaknesses are not so big.
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What I look at on the scouting is more at what they never do.
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So if we you'll see, when you scout because you're doing that more and more you will see that sometimes they never poach on regular, or they will never poach on second, or they will never serve T from regular on that side or they will never serve wide on, I, and if you look at the stats and what never happened is a really solid base in several match then the receiver can cheat.
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So for me some weakness is lack of uncertainty or lack of ability to see everything, and that's much our strength, because then it means we're going to modify our positioning and be able to return more offensively, and that's it.
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Or some players will never love opponents who are really closing.
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So, I think, for me a definition of anticipation.
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Everybody talks about anticipation, anticipation.
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For me it's either read technically or predict tactically what the player will do or will never do.
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And I think, as me, when I scout, it's not try to see what they always do, because it's rare, they always have a variation, it's more looking at what they don't do, and that's very, very instrumental to win matches, in my opinion, of course.
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Yeah, yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
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It's so nuanced and that question doesn't have a clear answer, which is why you have the long answer there.
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I'm curious what's something?
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You've been coaching doubles for a long time.
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What is something that you've changed, either change your opinion on or changed about your coaching style in the last, say, 20 years or so?
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Coaching style has to change because society changed.
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You cannot talk the same way, you cannot be as directive, you cannot be as forceful as many years ago, when it was even the trend in coaching to be like a tough guy and all that stuff, I guess.
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So not that I was very tough, but things change, communication change.
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You have to learn to be more.
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When you mature, when you're a bit younger coach, you want to feel that you make a difference, feel almost needed, and when you get older you really want to empower your player so you're not needed.
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And to be like this you have to have matured a lot, because it's always kind of a feel good for a coach to feel needed.
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But, how can you empower someone and be needed all the time?
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So I changed a lot in my vocabulary.
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So instead of saying, well, you have to, you must, you need to, I want you to, I will say, well, look at the possibility, it may be preferable, consider the option and I will give you a lot of empowering words where you're going to make your own decision with the court.
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So that's my vocabulary.
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I've changed a lot.
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I've worked a lot on responsibility.
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If a player say the opponent make me lose my concentration, or my opponent, I know me, then they have to rephrase I get annoyed when the opponent do that.
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I lose my concentration when the referee do that.
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Okay.
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So now that you have acknowledged that you're not a victim and you're responsible for the way you feel, now we can deal, you can deal with it.
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So I've learned a lot to empower people, give them autonomy, give them responsibility instead of victimizing, and I think that's a lot.
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On the tactical point, about eight years ago the theme of the training camp of Alderbreeds was how to beat these deep, deep, deep singles players, because suddenly they were bowed back, serving, staying back, ripping their ground strokes, and all our tactics was to poach a lot in first volley, closing on first volley it was all base Because, I don't know, 10 years ago there was very few people staying back.
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I remember Cal Edmund telling me yeah, I play doubles, but I don't play proper doubles, I serve and stay back.
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Now he will say do you play doubles?
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Yes, I serve, stay back and rip my forehand.
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So last time I checked it was maybe a year and a half ago 55% of the top 100 players were staying back in the serve.
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So that has changed so much compared to 10 years ago.
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So I have to change a lot of that.
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How to play against both back.
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A lot of tactics have changed because of the singles players serving same back and a lot of ball back so and a lot of hard hitting, which is, uh, intimidating.
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So if you watch the brit now, they're not allowed to defend on the volleys.
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They they were, I think, hard, they were defending and they were always losing the point.
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They always counter-attacked on the volley Ball comes hard, you will see it.
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It will go back to over the net all the time.
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I prefer they miss a few on the wide tape and play defensive and then feeling completely dominated by the power of the ground source and that has worked quite well.
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We start to be very, very top singles players which maybe a few years ago we would have lost to so that's what I changed?
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Mostly tactically.
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Yeah, yes, the kind of language advice seems like good advice just for life in general, taking ownership and kind of empowering if you're a CEO or if you're a manager of people, empowering your employees.
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And then that tactical advice at the end.
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Yeah.
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And the reason I give these two answers is because in our British system we have what we call the performer and the player.
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And the player knows that if they didn't perform, come with their head, heart and legs on the match.
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We don't do match analysis.
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We don't do match analysis.
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We don't do video report, we don't do that.
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Like the match that I said was disappointing, we did no debrief, no match analysis, no stats because the performer was not there.
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So why to say you know your serve was, why to blame the technique and the tactics when in fact you didn't show up for the match?
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So for me, being a high-performance coach is the word says develop performers.
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So it's to be able to work at the level of identity, belief, attitude, mindset, values.
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And if I cannot, as a coach, transform people, not just inform them, form them, my job is to transform any limitation at the performer level.
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If I can do that, then I can develop number one.
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If I cannot do that, if I just work at the level of the player hitting the ball and tactic will develop good things.
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But no, no champion, no slam champions stuff, I guess.
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So for me, performer and players are two aspects that the coach have to always approach at the same time makes sense.
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So two more questions for you.
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Uh, what is a mistake that you've made and learned from over the last, say, 10 years or so?
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Oh, I've made many.
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Most frequent, I think, was probably and I'm getting better was to maybe be a bit too directive, kind of you know like, and my language was probably creating a bit of anxiety or stress.
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You know, okay, you have to, uh, you need to poach a lot, you have to return line, you have to do this and, and just think about it, if you say you have to see me tomorrow versus you want to see me tomorrow, the energy is very different.
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So that was a mistake.
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I think I was putting some stress on the players and now I will say for sure, 100%, you could consider a return line against that team.
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It may be preferable you had a bit more lines against that team.
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You may choose to have a bit more lines against that thing.
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All words that I'm not putting pressure on them, but of course I know I influence them a lot, that they will probably do it, but it will be their decision, their choice, their liking, their wanting, and not mine.
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So what do you do if you say that and they don't return the line?
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And you know in your mind.
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I mentioned that.
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I thought it was probably preferable that you had more line against that.
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So what makes you decide to do that?
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But I thought they were not poaching a lot.
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Okay, I understand.
00:20:20.666 --> 00:20:26.266
Okay, that makes sense, but was the guy squeezing the middle a lot and did he take most of your crossword?
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Yeah, yeah, so sometimes they poach, but sometimes they squeeze a lot.
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So this is a team that squeezes a lot in the middle.
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You have to keep them quiet, move it down like that and say okay, okay.
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And the next time they play they will do it.
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But I will not blame them.
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I will always say and I don't say the word, why, why?
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It puts you on defensive right away.
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Why did you do that?
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So what makes you decide to return more and more things that invite a relation, but you're not in trouble?
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Why didn't you?
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Return the thing, like I suggested.
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So what makes you decide to go more across?
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And if you engage in a non-threatening communication?
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then, they can talk freely, then you really see, how they think, and then you can realign them and make them learn that's good.
00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:19.224
This is deep psychological stuff here.
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I like it but it's uh.
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That's what coaching is all about yeah, it's good, um.
00:21:24.942 --> 00:21:39.192
so last topic I want to talk about um, I want to get your thoughts on some of the rule changes that the ATP has experimented with over the last year, and then also what you would like to see going forward for ATP doubles.
00:21:40.181 --> 00:21:43.951
I'll start right away with what I would like to see respect for the doubles.
00:21:43.951 --> 00:21:45.507
They do a website.
00:21:45.507 --> 00:21:46.944
They do everything promotion.
00:21:46.944 --> 00:21:48.110
They don't include the doubles.
00:21:48.110 --> 00:21:47.982
They do a website.
00:21:47.982 --> 00:21:49.536
They do everything promotion, they don't include the doubles.
00:21:49.536 --> 00:22:02.970
So if the ATP itself as an organization don't promote the doubles they don't put it in their social media, they don't put it there how do you think the media who goes on it will feed on that and go in the media and so on.
00:22:02.970 --> 00:22:04.003
It's a vicious circle.
00:22:04.003 --> 00:22:08.480
I think ADP blame their anyway.
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:22.489
They should take more accountability to promote the doubles and there's some vibe in the film that some pressure would determine the director or whatever to really get rid of the doubles or to just have singles players.
00:22:22.489 --> 00:22:39.087
I don't have good vibes for that, I'm not very happy about that and I think they should just acknowledge that doubles is a part in itself and to say that they want to promote more doubles by testing them, by playing top 50 players, you know.
00:22:39.087 --> 00:22:42.369
Like that they will say in which way to promote the doubles.
00:22:42.369 --> 00:22:52.625
That if dig or whatever, do not take my players, top 10 players losing 50 singles which they they can, because it's not easy to win a doubles match.
00:22:52.625 --> 00:22:57.406
It's not promoting doubles at all, so it's kind of the opposite.
00:22:57.406 --> 00:23:01.800
Anyway, I think there's some things that's okay.
00:23:01.800 --> 00:23:08.369
I think it's okay it's shorter as long as it's being used for TV, which it doesn't.
00:23:08.914 --> 00:23:14.962
We were supposed to have more center court exposure, which was mentioned.
00:23:14.962 --> 00:23:18.548
Never happens, so they do some problems that doesn't happen.
00:23:18.548 --> 00:23:23.531
So that contributes to quite a bit of frustration in the doubles world.
00:23:23.531 --> 00:23:26.368
Then the thing about coaching.
00:23:26.368 --> 00:23:33.288
We were doing it that way before because it has to be short, so you cannot get and make a deep conversation.
00:23:33.288 --> 00:23:38.149
And there's so much you coach because you do the game plan before.
00:23:38.149 --> 00:23:44.465
So most of the time it's just a realignment or a short change so you don't have to sit and talk 10 minutes.
00:23:44.465 --> 00:23:59.589
So nothing that I do more that I was not doing before, except I don't have to kind of hide or fake eye cough like hi hi for more eye formation.
00:24:00.379 --> 00:24:04.546
So now I could just say I demand more eye formation, but besides that that's okay.
00:24:04.546 --> 00:24:11.369
And then there was a time nobody liked it and the ATP stopped it to rush it between points.
00:24:11.369 --> 00:24:12.805
It was way too short.
00:24:12.805 --> 00:24:16.087
Everybody ate that and I think the ATP acknowledged it.
00:24:16.087 --> 00:24:29.629
So I think they have learned that some prior rule change didn't work and some others they tried to involve more singles, which is fine, but just please promote the doubles.
00:24:31.899 --> 00:24:32.100
That's all.
00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:32.902
I want to say, yeah, promote the doubles.
00:24:32.902 --> 00:24:33.584
They deserve it.
00:24:33.584 --> 00:24:37.472
It's a good product, it's a nice you cover doubles.
00:24:37.472 --> 00:24:42.901
You know how exciting it is yeah so let's, let's promote it, and you're a good way of promoting it well.
00:24:42.901 --> 00:24:44.903
So I'm trying my best, doing that.
00:24:44.943 --> 00:24:45.644
I appreciate it.
00:24:45.644 --> 00:24:58.600
Yeah, it seems like I was encouraged last year that they were starting to experiment and try new things, but to me, a lot of the changes were to the product and not the promotion Exactly.
00:24:58.600 --> 00:25:06.047
And they need more changes on the promotion side, because I am with you I talked with Calvin the other day.
00:25:06.047 --> 00:25:07.570
I think the product's great.
00:25:07.570 --> 00:25:11.470
When I go sit in the stands, you're in the coaching box and you're focused, so maybe you don't hear it as much, but I go sit in the stands, you're in the coaching box and you're focused, so you.
00:25:11.470 --> 00:25:20.019
Maybe you don't hear it as much, but I'm sitting in the stands with all the fans and they're all oohing and aahing about the points and the skills and they're all excited.
00:25:20.019 --> 00:25:24.030
I never hear people say this is boring, I'm leaving like that doesn't happen.
00:25:24.030 --> 00:25:29.808
So I think the promotion side I'm with you needs a lot more help Exactly.
00:25:30.430 --> 00:25:35.845
You said in two key words exactly what I was thinking 100% Awesome, louis.
00:25:35.925 --> 00:25:36.729
This was a ton of fun.
00:25:36.729 --> 00:25:42.348
Hopefully we'll be able to do it again sometime and good luck, the rest of the tournament and the rest of the season.
00:25:42.348 --> 00:25:42.750
Thank you.
00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:44.084
And keep your great work.
00:25:44.084 --> 00:25:48.931
I'm a member of it, I watch your product, what you're doing, and it's very, very well done.
00:25:48.931 --> 00:26:03.905
And I'm looking, especially when you write about the club members, because I don't coach a lot of club members and I'm always very curious to see what you say to promo doubles at the club membership and, uh, it's very interesting.
00:26:03.925 --> 00:26:06.715
I enjoy it thank you so much, thanks so much.
00:01:15.900 --> 00:01:35.512
So I've been doing this podcast for almost five years now and my favorite conversations are with those coaches or players who are able to articulate an idea or get information across in as few words as possible.
00:01:35.512 --> 00:01:39.154
Way to think about this is they're basically the opposite of politicians.
00:01:39.154 --> 00:01:51.322
You can imagine a politician, at least especially here in the States, where they will get up there, they'll make a speech, they'll talk to the camera and they'll say absolutely nothing over the course of 30 minutes or an hour.
00:01:51.322 --> 00:01:56.033
Nothing gets across, no information gets across, they avoid questions and so on.
00:01:56.033 --> 00:02:00.109
Now my favorite interviews are the exact opposite of that.
00:02:00.109 --> 00:02:03.207
I will listen to five or 10 minutes.
00:02:03.207 --> 00:02:14.002
I will talk to someone for five or 10 minutes and I'll want to re-listen to that over and over again and I'll learn something new in that conversation every time, and that's what you're about to hear.
00:02:14.021 --> 00:02:19.149
Louis Kaye is possibly the best doubles coach in the world, is possibly the best doubles coach in the world.
00:02:19.149 --> 00:02:24.156
He is the senior performance analyst for the LTA.
00:02:24.156 --> 00:02:36.150
He works with all of the top British ATP doubles players and I chatted with him for about 25 minutes in Melbourne and we talk about the tournament.
00:02:36.150 --> 00:02:36.310
Overall.
00:02:36.310 --> 00:02:38.321
He's there managing five teams.
00:02:38.321 --> 00:02:40.307
I asked him how he's able to do that.
00:02:40.307 --> 00:02:44.444
He talks about how some of the results had been disappointing to that point.
00:02:44.444 --> 00:03:01.069
However, less than a week later, he did have a team win the Australian Open in Henry Patton and Harry Heliavara, whose direct coach I interviewed on the podcast several days before, which you've already heard.
00:03:01.069 --> 00:03:02.822
His name is Calvin Betten.
00:03:02.822 --> 00:03:21.093
So Louis talks about how he's able to manage five teams, his role with the LTA and how he's developed this kind of British tennis system and you're going to learn so much whether you're into ATP doubles or just trying to improve your own game strategically.
00:03:21.093 --> 00:03:28.134
I ask him how much weight he puts on his team's strengths versus the opponent's weaknesses.
00:03:28.134 --> 00:03:32.331
He talks about the difference between the performer and the player.
00:03:32.331 --> 00:03:43.028
He uses one of his teams as an example that recently had a bad performance in the Australian Open and he doesn't even analyze the match because they didn't show up mentally.
00:03:43.028 --> 00:03:57.050
So he talks a lot about that and it's got me thinking since that conversation a lot about how to make sure that I am getting the most out of players mentally before I even go to the strategic side.
00:03:57.050 --> 00:04:02.542
He also talks about what he's changed in terms of his coaching style over the last 20 years.
00:04:02.542 --> 00:04:05.670
We talk about mistakes that he's made.
00:04:05.670 --> 00:04:16.663
He talks a lot about language that he uses with his players, and this is something that I'm trying to improve on myself and I really, really want to emphasize it for you.
00:04:16.663 --> 00:04:23.024
This language might not only apply to coaches, but it also applies to you as a doubles partner.
00:04:23.425 --> 00:04:26.632
If you're somebody who listens to this podcast, you're very into strategy.
00:04:26.632 --> 00:04:34.382
You may not play with players who are as tactically minded as you all the time, so how do you get them bought in?
00:04:34.382 --> 00:04:36.949
It's a question I get a lot from a lot of you.
00:04:36.949 --> 00:04:43.764
I want to do I formation, but my partner just wants to do regular and he doesn't want to think about all that stuff.
00:04:43.764 --> 00:04:53.317
Well, Louie has some specific tips in terms of language that you can use to try to get them bought in to these types of tactics.
00:04:54.158 --> 00:05:04.024
He also talks about how the game has evolved, and then we talk about rule changes on the ATP tour and what we can do to make doubles more popular.
00:05:04.024 --> 00:05:10.247
So, whether you're into the pro tour, whether you're into your own game, you can hear how excited I am about this episode.
00:05:10.247 --> 00:05:17.773
I'm definitely going to re-listen to it here very soon and then probably multiple times throughout the year because I learned so much.
00:05:17.773 --> 00:05:26.090
But if you're involved in doubles at all, this is really a must-listen interview with Louis Kaye.
00:05:26.090 --> 00:05:33.633
So, without further delay, enjoy this super insightful and helpful conversation with Louis Kaye.
00:05:33.633 --> 00:05:36.585
Hey, everyone, welcome to the show.
00:05:36.585 --> 00:05:42.406
I am back in Melbourne and this time we have one of the best doubles coaches in the world on.
00:05:42.406 --> 00:05:44.151
We have Louis Caillet Louis, welcome.
00:05:45.073 --> 00:05:47.828
Nice Thanks for doing this with me, Will.
00:05:48.189 --> 00:05:48.771
Yeah, of course.
00:05:48.771 --> 00:05:52.329
So how has Melbourne been so far?
00:05:52.329 --> 00:05:56.372
You've got two teams into the quarterfinals tomorrow.
00:05:56.372 --> 00:05:57.885
How have the two weeks been for you?
00:05:58.860 --> 00:06:00.003
It's been quite good.
00:06:00.003 --> 00:06:09.321
I think we don't have any issue with practicing really here, of course, practicing on site, but they have NTC, albrecht, reser, stretchy.
00:06:09.321 --> 00:06:10.244
There's a lot of place.
00:06:10.244 --> 00:06:15.725
So training which is important because my job is to train the players is not an issue.
00:06:15.725 --> 00:06:17.891
I was here with four teams.
00:06:17.891 --> 00:06:23.867
We have a WhatsApp group and we time to practice that nobody practices at the same time.
00:06:23.867 --> 00:06:28.126
So the players have learned to work together, being very cooperative.
00:06:28.126 --> 00:06:29.927
They learn to support.
00:06:29.927 --> 00:06:34.127
They all wish that each of the other teams succeed in the tournament.
00:06:34.127 --> 00:06:35.506
There is no envy.
00:06:35.506 --> 00:06:45.307
So I'm quite pleased to have created what we call the British double system, the system where players support each other.
00:06:45.307 --> 00:06:46.550
So that was good.
00:06:47.301 --> 00:06:51.227
As a result, our concern two teams out of the four and a quarter.
00:06:51.227 --> 00:06:56.068
I was expecting a third team, which was Joe Salisbury and Neil Skubski.
00:06:56.068 --> 00:07:03.157
Let's say their opponent played very well, but they had a they will, they will agree a counter performance.
00:07:03.157 --> 00:07:13.573
Yeah, that was not the day for them, and so I was expecting which happened quite often to have three British teams in their quarters.
00:07:13.573 --> 00:07:15.665
So that's it.
00:07:15.665 --> 00:07:29.902
And there's a player, luke Johnson, who, who played with Sander Ahrens and they started to really progress well at the last 7-6, 7-6, but it was a very high-level match, so I'm quite pleased.
00:07:29.902 --> 00:07:33.912
Besides one match, I'm quite pleased with the way it went so far.
00:07:35.401 --> 00:07:35.722
Awesome.
00:07:35.722 --> 00:07:39.152
So we've got two British teams into the quarters.
00:07:39.152 --> 00:07:43.651
It sounds like you were expecting three, but you started.
00:07:43.651 --> 00:07:52.213
I emailed you before the tournament to try to set this up and you said you're managing five teams here, which seems like a ton.
00:07:52.213 --> 00:08:09.927
And then this morning I messaged you on WhatsApp knowing that neither of your two teams in the quarters played today, thinking you'd have more free time, and you sent me a message saying that you were on court from 8 am to 4 pm, so you seem unbelievably busy.
00:08:09.927 --> 00:08:12.072
How do you manage five teams?
00:08:12.072 --> 00:08:14.064
How does this all work for you?
00:08:14.064 --> 00:08:14.908
It seems very.
00:08:15.405 --> 00:08:16.260
It is very difficult.
00:08:16.260 --> 00:08:27.525
A few years ago the Lta said we have to become decentralized, so therefore each team needed a traveling coach.
00:08:27.525 --> 00:08:54.664
So even if I'm often the kind of a bracket leading coach because sometimes the traveling coach I know them already, like neil skupski, it's Ken which I coach for eight years, jules Salisbury, anyway, pretty much everybody I've either mentored them, coached them, so I guess I'm quite often the leading coach, giving the objective and all this, but I'm not traveling full time with them.
00:08:54.664 --> 00:09:04.951
And so my point is the traveling coach, take care of practice, court, practice ball, whatever all the organizational is done.
00:09:04.951 --> 00:09:09.672
So me, my main thing is to look at the match.
00:09:09.672 --> 00:09:14.369
We have someone scouting the opponents, like you do sometimes for the American.
00:09:14.980 --> 00:09:18.227
So, I receive, like today, the scouting.
00:09:18.227 --> 00:09:28.965
All the match are tagged so I can see, for example, for the next opponent, just their second serve on that court, just the return of just the I formation when they do it.
00:09:28.965 --> 00:09:31.567
I can see pretty much whatever I need.
00:09:31.567 --> 00:09:45.027
And then I'm part of the group to share what I think we need to do to beat them, and after their match, like today, right down to practice the thing that we need to do to beat them, and after their match, like today, right down to practice the thing that we need to refine for the next round.
00:09:45.027 --> 00:09:52.546
So it's quite easy because I have each team have their own traveling coach to do everything.
00:09:52.546 --> 00:09:55.525
So that's it.
00:09:55.525 --> 00:10:04.827
It's like we work really as a team, so each team has a coach and then I'm kind of I'll call that consultant, leading coach.
00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:10.808
It's kind of a funny role because I'm supplied by the LTA, but the players and their traveling coach.
00:10:10.808 --> 00:10:26.990
I agree that I'm leading the direction that the team should go, but it will not be possible without a traveling coach and it will not be possible without the sc coach and it will not be possible without the scouting done in London by the LTA scouting team.
00:10:27.370 --> 00:10:32.889
Of course yeah, and it's obviously a system that's had a ton of success over the years.
00:10:32.889 --> 00:10:45.617
I want to ask a strategy question real quick that I always like to ask people how much weight do you put on your team's strengths versus the opponent's weakness?
00:10:47.445 --> 00:10:51.796
I think every coach will say on big points you have to match your strengths against the weakness.
00:10:51.796 --> 00:10:56.775
So I think it's a mix of values, but we're going to.
00:10:56.775 --> 00:11:09.348
Ok, I look at the weakness and if it can be matched with this is the way we play, this is our strength and we can attack that weakness without changing our game style then we're going to do it.
00:11:09.348 --> 00:11:11.550
For sure, there is no problem with that.
00:11:11.550 --> 00:11:20.656
If their weakness means that we have to change our game style, then we're going to hesitate a tiny bit.
00:11:20.656 --> 00:11:25.680
So at that level the weaknesses are not so big.
00:11:25.680 --> 00:11:35.767
What I look at on the scouting is more at what they never do.
00:11:35.767 --> 00:11:59.190
So if we you'll see, when you scout because you're doing that more and more you will see that sometimes they never poach on regular, or they will never poach on second, or they will never serve T from regular on that side or they will never serve wide on, I, and if you look at the stats and what never happened is a really solid base in several match then the receiver can cheat.
00:12:00.305 --> 00:12:16.756
So for me some weakness is lack of uncertainty or lack of ability to see everything, and that's much our strength, because then it means we're going to modify our positioning and be able to return more offensively, and that's it.
00:12:16.756 --> 00:12:21.736
Or some players will never love opponents who are really closing.
00:12:22.404 --> 00:12:25.735
So, I think, for me a definition of anticipation.
00:12:25.735 --> 00:12:29.673
Everybody talks about anticipation, anticipation.
00:12:29.673 --> 00:12:36.817
For me it's either read technically or predict tactically what the player will do or will never do.
00:12:36.817 --> 00:12:54.817
And I think, as me, when I scout, it's not try to see what they always do, because it's rare, they always have a variation, it's more looking at what they don't do, and that's very, very instrumental to win matches, in my opinion, of course.
00:12:55.097 --> 00:12:57.010
Yeah, yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
00:12:57.010 --> 00:13:03.629
It's so nuanced and that question doesn't have a clear answer, which is why you have the long answer there.
00:13:03.629 --> 00:13:06.074
I'm curious what's something?
00:13:06.074 --> 00:13:08.058
You've been coaching doubles for a long time.
00:13:16.945 --> 00:13:24.639
What is something that you've changed, either change your opinion on or changed about your coaching style in the last, say, 20 years or so?
00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:26.000
Coaching style has to change because society changed.
00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:35.509
You cannot talk the same way, you cannot be as directive, you cannot be as forceful as many years ago, when it was even the trend in coaching to be like a tough guy and all that stuff, I guess.
00:13:35.509 --> 00:13:39.390
So not that I was very tough, but things change, communication change.
00:13:40.786 --> 00:13:43.110
You have to learn to be more.
00:13:43.110 --> 00:14:01.376
When you mature, when you're a bit younger coach, you want to feel that you make a difference, feel almost needed, and when you get older you really want to empower your player so you're not needed.
00:14:01.376 --> 00:14:10.392
And to be like this you have to have matured a lot, because it's always kind of a feel good for a coach to feel needed.
00:14:11.025 --> 00:14:15.113
But, how can you empower someone and be needed all the time?
00:14:15.113 --> 00:14:17.312
So I changed a lot in my vocabulary.
00:14:17.312 --> 00:14:36.543
So instead of saying, well, you have to, you must, you need to, I want you to, I will say, well, look at the possibility, it may be preferable, consider the option and I will give you a lot of empowering words where you're going to make your own decision with the court.
00:14:36.543 --> 00:14:38.828
So that's my vocabulary.
00:14:38.828 --> 00:14:39.711
I've changed a lot.
00:14:39.711 --> 00:14:42.298
I've worked a lot on responsibility.
00:14:42.298 --> 00:14:51.892
If a player say the opponent make me lose my concentration, or my opponent, I know me, then they have to rephrase I get annoyed when the opponent do that.
00:14:51.892 --> 00:14:55.154
I lose my concentration when the referee do that.
00:14:55.154 --> 00:14:55.456
Okay.
00:14:55.456 --> 00:15:03.075
So now that you have acknowledged that you're not a victim and you're responsible for the way you feel, now we can deal, you can deal with it.
00:15:03.075 --> 00:15:14.572
So I've learned a lot to empower people, give them autonomy, give them responsibility instead of victimizing, and I think that's a lot.
00:15:15.004 --> 00:15:39.634
On the tactical point, about eight years ago the theme of the training camp of Alderbreeds was how to beat these deep, deep, deep singles players, because suddenly they were bowed back, serving, staying back, ripping their ground strokes, and all our tactics was to poach a lot in first volley, closing on first volley it was all base Because, I don't know, 10 years ago there was very few people staying back.
00:15:39.634 --> 00:15:46.033
I remember Cal Edmund telling me yeah, I play doubles, but I don't play proper doubles, I serve and stay back.
00:15:46.033 --> 00:15:49.052
Now he will say do you play doubles?
00:15:49.052 --> 00:15:51.384
Yes, I serve, stay back and rip my forehand.
00:15:51.384 --> 00:16:00.664
So last time I checked it was maybe a year and a half ago 55% of the top 100 players were staying back in the serve.
00:16:00.764 --> 00:16:04.155
So that has changed so much compared to 10 years ago.
00:16:04.155 --> 00:16:06.485
So I have to change a lot of that.
00:16:06.485 --> 00:16:07.987
How to play against both back.
00:16:07.987 --> 00:16:20.745
A lot of tactics have changed because of the singles players serving same back and a lot of ball back so and a lot of hard hitting, which is, uh, intimidating.
00:16:20.745 --> 00:16:24.451
So if you watch the brit now, they're not allowed to defend on the volleys.
00:16:24.451 --> 00:16:27.778
They they were, I think, hard, they were defending and they were always losing the point.
00:16:27.778 --> 00:16:31.574
They always counter-attacked on the volley Ball comes hard, you will see it.
00:16:31.574 --> 00:16:34.088
It will go back to over the net all the time.
00:16:34.088 --> 00:16:44.216
I prefer they miss a few on the wide tape and play defensive and then feeling completely dominated by the power of the ground source and that has worked quite well.
00:16:44.255 --> 00:16:52.409
We start to be very, very top singles players which maybe a few years ago we would have lost to so that's what I changed?
00:16:52.409 --> 00:16:53.332
Mostly tactically.
00:16:53.552 --> 00:17:06.976
Yeah, yes, the kind of language advice seems like good advice just for life in general, taking ownership and kind of empowering if you're a CEO or if you're a manager of people, empowering your employees.
00:17:06.976 --> 00:17:09.353
And then that tactical advice at the end.
00:17:09.724 --> 00:17:09.806
Yeah.
00:17:09.806 --> 00:17:18.099
And the reason I give these two answers is because in our British system we have what we call the performer and the player.
00:17:18.099 --> 00:17:23.656
And the player knows that if they didn't perform, come with their head, heart and legs on the match.
00:17:23.656 --> 00:17:24.775
We don't do match analysis.
00:17:24.775 --> 00:17:25.365
We don't do match analysis.
00:17:25.365 --> 00:17:29.110
We don't do video report, we don't do that.
00:17:29.110 --> 00:17:37.512
Like the match that I said was disappointing, we did no debrief, no match analysis, no stats because the performer was not there.
00:17:38.184 --> 00:17:46.733
So why to say you know your serve was, why to blame the technique and the tactics when in fact you didn't show up for the match?
00:17:46.733 --> 00:17:54.953
So for me, being a high-performance coach is the word says develop performers.
00:17:54.953 --> 00:18:01.514
So it's to be able to work at the level of identity, belief, attitude, mindset, values.
00:18:01.514 --> 00:18:14.938
And if I cannot, as a coach, transform people, not just inform them, form them, my job is to transform any limitation at the performer level.
00:18:14.938 --> 00:18:17.854
If I can do that, then I can develop number one.
00:18:17.854 --> 00:18:26.134
If I cannot do that, if I just work at the level of the player hitting the ball and tactic will develop good things.
00:18:26.134 --> 00:18:30.230
But no, no champion, no slam champions stuff, I guess.
00:18:30.230 --> 00:18:37.752
So for me, performer and players are two aspects that the coach have to always approach at the same time makes sense.
00:18:38.434 --> 00:18:39.837
So two more questions for you.
00:18:39.837 --> 00:18:49.000
Uh, what is a mistake that you've made and learned from over the last, say, 10 years or so?
00:18:50.445 --> 00:18:52.894
Oh, I've made many.
00:18:58.085 --> 00:19:14.173
Most frequent, I think, was probably and I'm getting better was to maybe be a bit too directive, kind of you know like, and my language was probably creating a bit of anxiety or stress.
00:19:14.173 --> 00:19:29.230
You know, okay, you have to, uh, you need to poach a lot, you have to return line, you have to do this and, and just think about it, if you say you have to see me tomorrow versus you want to see me tomorrow, the energy is very different.
00:19:29.230 --> 00:19:32.153
So that was a mistake.
00:19:32.153 --> 00:19:41.009
I think I was putting some stress on the players and now I will say for sure, 100%, you could consider a return line against that team.
00:19:41.009 --> 00:19:44.488
It may be preferable you had a bit more lines against that team.
00:19:44.488 --> 00:19:47.278
You may choose to have a bit more lines against that thing.
00:19:47.278 --> 00:20:00.037
All words that I'm not putting pressure on them, but of course I know I influence them a lot, that they will probably do it, but it will be their decision, their choice, their liking, their wanting, and not mine.
00:20:00.384 --> 00:20:04.117
So what do you do if you say that and they don't return the line?
00:20:04.117 --> 00:20:06.346
And you know in your mind.
00:20:08.022 --> 00:20:09.125
I mentioned that.
00:20:09.125 --> 00:20:13.387
I thought it was probably preferable that you had more line against that.
00:20:13.387 --> 00:20:16.188
So what makes you decide to do that?
00:20:16.188 --> 00:20:18.607
But I thought they were not poaching a lot.
00:20:18.607 --> 00:20:20.666
Okay, I understand.
00:20:20.666 --> 00:20:26.266
Okay, that makes sense, but was the guy squeezing the middle a lot and did he take most of your crossword?
00:20:26.266 --> 00:20:30.269
Yeah, yeah, so sometimes they poach, but sometimes they squeeze a lot.
00:20:30.269 --> 00:20:33.609
So this is a team that squeezes a lot in the middle.
00:20:33.609 --> 00:20:36.826
You have to keep them quiet, move it down like that and say okay, okay.
00:20:37.380 --> 00:20:38.988
And the next time they play they will do it.
00:20:38.988 --> 00:20:40.725
But I will not blame them.
00:20:40.725 --> 00:20:43.749
I will always say and I don't say the word, why, why?
00:20:43.749 --> 00:20:47.288
It puts you on defensive right away.
00:20:47.288 --> 00:20:54.540
Why did you do that?
00:20:54.540 --> 00:20:58.091
So what makes you decide to return more and more things that invite a relation, but you're not in trouble?
00:20:58.091 --> 00:20:59.664
Why didn't you?
00:20:59.664 --> 00:21:01.994
Return the thing, like I suggested.
00:21:01.994 --> 00:21:04.707
So what makes you decide to go more across?
00:21:04.707 --> 00:21:09.010
And if you engage in a non-threatening communication?
00:21:09.562 --> 00:21:16.779
then, they can talk freely, then you really see, how they think, and then you can realign them and make them learn that's good.
00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:19.224
This is deep psychological stuff here.
00:21:19.224 --> 00:21:20.647
I like it but it's uh.
00:21:21.490 --> 00:21:24.601
That's what coaching is all about yeah, it's good, um.
00:21:24.942 --> 00:21:39.192
so last topic I want to talk about um, I want to get your thoughts on some of the rule changes that the ATP has experimented with over the last year, and then also what you would like to see going forward for ATP doubles.
00:21:40.181 --> 00:21:43.951
I'll start right away with what I would like to see respect for the doubles.
00:21:43.951 --> 00:21:45.507
They do a website.
00:21:45.507 --> 00:21:46.944
They do everything promotion.
00:21:46.944 --> 00:21:48.110
They don't include the doubles.
00:21:48.110 --> 00:21:47.982
They do a website.
00:21:47.982 --> 00:21:49.536
They do everything promotion, they don't include the doubles.
00:21:49.536 --> 00:22:02.970
So if the ATP itself as an organization don't promote the doubles they don't put it in their social media, they don't put it there how do you think the media who goes on it will feed on that and go in the media and so on.
00:22:02.970 --> 00:22:04.003
It's a vicious circle.
00:22:04.003 --> 00:22:08.480
I think ADP blame their anyway.
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:22.489
They should take more accountability to promote the doubles and there's some vibe in the film that some pressure would determine the director or whatever to really get rid of the doubles or to just have singles players.
00:22:22.489 --> 00:22:39.087
I don't have good vibes for that, I'm not very happy about that and I think they should just acknowledge that doubles is a part in itself and to say that they want to promote more doubles by testing them, by playing top 50 players, you know.
00:22:39.087 --> 00:22:42.369
Like that they will say in which way to promote the doubles.
00:22:42.369 --> 00:22:52.625
That if dig or whatever, do not take my players, top 10 players losing 50 singles which they they can, because it's not easy to win a doubles match.
00:22:52.625 --> 00:22:57.406
It's not promoting doubles at all, so it's kind of the opposite.
00:22:57.406 --> 00:23:01.800
Anyway, I think there's some things that's okay.
00:23:01.800 --> 00:23:08.369
I think it's okay it's shorter as long as it's being used for TV, which it doesn't.
00:23:08.914 --> 00:23:14.962
We were supposed to have more center court exposure, which was mentioned.
00:23:14.962 --> 00:23:18.548
Never happens, so they do some problems that doesn't happen.
00:23:18.548 --> 00:23:23.531
So that contributes to quite a bit of frustration in the doubles world.
00:23:23.531 --> 00:23:26.368
Then the thing about coaching.
00:23:26.368 --> 00:23:33.288
We were doing it that way before because it has to be short, so you cannot get and make a deep conversation.
00:23:33.288 --> 00:23:38.149
And there's so much you coach because you do the game plan before.
00:23:38.149 --> 00:23:44.465
So most of the time it's just a realignment or a short change so you don't have to sit and talk 10 minutes.
00:23:44.465 --> 00:23:59.589
So nothing that I do more that I was not doing before, except I don't have to kind of hide or fake eye cough like hi hi for more eye formation.
00:24:00.379 --> 00:24:04.546
So now I could just say I demand more eye formation, but besides that that's okay.
00:24:04.546 --> 00:24:11.369
And then there was a time nobody liked it and the ATP stopped it to rush it between points.
00:24:11.369 --> 00:24:12.805
It was way too short.
00:24:12.805 --> 00:24:16.087
Everybody ate that and I think the ATP acknowledged it.
00:24:16.087 --> 00:24:29.629
So I think they have learned that some prior rule change didn't work and some others they tried to involve more singles, which is fine, but just please promote the doubles.
00:24:31.899 --> 00:24:32.100
That's all.
00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:32.902
I want to say, yeah, promote the doubles.
00:24:32.902 --> 00:24:33.584
They deserve it.
00:24:33.584 --> 00:24:37.472
It's a good product, it's a nice you cover doubles.
00:24:37.472 --> 00:24:42.901
You know how exciting it is yeah so let's, let's promote it, and you're a good way of promoting it well.
00:24:42.901 --> 00:24:44.903
So I'm trying my best, doing that.
00:24:44.943 --> 00:24:45.644
I appreciate it.
00:24:45.644 --> 00:24:58.600
Yeah, it seems like I was encouraged last year that they were starting to experiment and try new things, but to me, a lot of the changes were to the product and not the promotion Exactly.
00:24:58.600 --> 00:25:06.047
And they need more changes on the promotion side, because I am with you I talked with Calvin the other day.
00:25:06.047 --> 00:25:07.570
I think the product's great.
00:25:07.570 --> 00:25:11.470
When I go sit in the stands, you're in the coaching box and you're focused, so maybe you don't hear it as much, but I go sit in the stands, you're in the coaching box and you're focused, so you.
00:25:11.470 --> 00:25:20.019
Maybe you don't hear it as much, but I'm sitting in the stands with all the fans and they're all oohing and aahing about the points and the skills and they're all excited.
00:25:20.019 --> 00:25:24.030
I never hear people say this is boring, I'm leaving like that doesn't happen.
00:25:24.030 --> 00:25:29.808
So I think the promotion side I'm with you needs a lot more help Exactly.
00:25:30.430 --> 00:25:35.845
You said in two key words exactly what I was thinking 100% Awesome, louis.
00:25:35.925 --> 00:25:36.729
This was a ton of fun.
00:25:36.729 --> 00:25:42.348
Hopefully we'll be able to do it again sometime and good luck, the rest of the tournament and the rest of the season.
00:25:42.348 --> 00:25:42.750
Thank you.
00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:44.084
And keep your great work.
00:25:44.084 --> 00:25:48.931
I'm a member of it, I watch your product, what you're doing, and it's very, very well done.
00:25:48.931 --> 00:26:03.905
And I'm looking, especially when you write about the club members, because I don't coach a lot of club members and I'm always very curious to see what you say to promo doubles at the club membership and, uh, it's very interesting.
00:26:03.925 --> 00:26:06.715
I enjoy it thank you so much, thanks so much.
ข้อสงวนสิทธิ์: พอดแคสต์และอาร์ตเวิร์คที่ฝังอยู่ในหน้านี้มาจาก Will Boucek ซึ่งเป็นทรัพย์สินของเจ้าของและไม่มีส่วนเกี่ยวข้องหรือรับรองโดย Listen Notes, Inc.
