WEBVTT
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Today I'm gonna play one of the most famous pieces in all the piano literature.
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WC starts this way up in the clouds, gazing at the moon.
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Slowly but surely we're making our way down to earth with this bass note here.
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Each of these phrases is like us reaching for something spiritual, some connection, fulfillment, and then there's this bitter sweetness to this chord.
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It's this minor second here on the bottom.
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Melancholy.
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It's this fragility, vulnerability, and kind of realization that all of our human wants and passions, desires, dreams are going to fade.
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But first we can reach for them courageously and passionately and find some beauty in how they'll eventually fade, too.
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That augmented chord.
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Edging.
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Edging, that space uh that is created between reality and our dreams, our hopes, our desires, our um what like human con the gift of human consciousness, which is to want something more than what's just right in front of us.
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And to take from sort of the spiritual and extra what's other, you know, the otherworldly and take it in and process it as humans.
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That didn't really make sense.
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But but I was thinking about the beginning when you were like, we're up in the clouds.
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And then when it goes down and it's played, that same passage is played more filled in.
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Right, because that's the opening.
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And he could continue with the Okay, sure.
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That's like the humanization.
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Yeah.
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Oh, that's beautiful.
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I I hadn't thought of it that way.
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That it's like the seed of the thought or the sometimes a register, like literally where we are on the piano or where the comp composer chooses to put the music in is is poetic.
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That alone, you know, rather than I mean, obviously, it's like unrecognizable down there almost.
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There's something like it's not just a concept, it's not just uh superficial that this register leads itself to a kind of gazing upward and a feeling of hope and wonder, you know, that I guess Debusy through this descent like you were describing is us coming back to is it coming back to reality or is it gaining confidence in that small thought that we had in the opening?
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And it's still in the same register, it's just now supported more.
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Yeah.
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With more sort of humanity or coming down to earth.
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I don't think of it as a confidence, although I like that.
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I think of it more as like this is the pure soul part in the beginning.
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Like it's just a soul from something non-human, and now we're attaching that soul and contextualizing it a little bit more.
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Yeah.
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It's more um also could be more communal.
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Like now this came from the individual to all of humanity.
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Or at least some kind of commonality between us in this search that we're not alone.
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It's so beautiful, and then it's almost like thwarted by this uh pain.
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You know, the pain of to me, um, a melancholy about the ephemerality of life, of you know, that everything is fleeting, necessarily, and everything beautiful, especially, is fleeting.
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We can only hang on to it for a split second.
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And the distance between these cores is what's so profoundly beautiful, right?
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Mm-hmm.
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And the more you try to hold on to it, sort of the more painful it is.
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It's like a lack of acceptance of the ephemeral ephemerality.
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This is like passion building.
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And this piece is about uh dancers.
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It is?
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Well, kind of.
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I mean a bergamasque is a type of dance, but it's also a style of folk music, but that's the title of the because this is this is one of three pieces in a in a suite, right?
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Right.
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We only know this one.
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Well, this is by far the most famous.
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But the poem that it's based on by Paul Verlaine describes these kind of masked uh dancers that a suite is called what?
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That it's from that the suite.
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Okay, which is based on the poem.
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Well, uh this I just know that this the poem by Paul Verlaine is called Claire Delune.
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Okay.
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So the specific piece is uh inspired by that poem.
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Okay.
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And it is describing this kind of wonderful celebration of these people who are dancing under the moonlight who are also quite sad at the same time.
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So it's like it's a celebration of life and an acknowledgement that it's all simultaneously fading.
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It's like what can we do but celebrate all of life, you know, including its vanishing.
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And including it's just the nature of reality.
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It's not something that you know, you can't have happy thoughts without the sad, you can't have darkness without light.
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The the moon is providing light, but it's also in darkness.
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And we're constantly living in this kind of shadow, you know, except when we're like directly under a kind of light of the moon.
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So I mean, I think whatever, you can get as deep or superficial as you want with this stuff.
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What I care about is how Debbie portrays these emotions through sound, you know.
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After this big buildup.
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I mean, it's so beautiful too how a composer can have one single note, one single melodic note that changes profoundly as the harmony underneath it changes.
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It's all context.
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It's all context.
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One note, but so beautiful.
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This is in a more grounded place than we started.
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But it's like waves of emotion.
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I mean it's so beautiful how Debussy um sometimes he can really portray water really well, you know, as an impressionist.
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Um he writes pieces that that sweep along the keyboard in a way that hadn't really been done before, you know, because in this sort of style, he's not afraid to stay in one harmony for a while, for probably too long, you know, according to other composers around that time, or right before, where it's like the interest in in composers like Brahms or late romantics were to, where's the change?
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Where exact you know what I mean?
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Like, how are we moving contrapuntally and where are we headed?
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But for Debussy, texture now and color in and gesture is becoming so important to the way he paints the musical environment that almost like an impressionist can sit in one color for a while.
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You don't need to uh, you know, have these distinct uh colors.
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You can really imagine a a world of one.
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What makes it because there are other composers who aren't French impressionists who do sort of uh arpeggios and and almost that same melody and harmonic rhythm and that kind of uh pattern, but what makes is it like the use of the pedal and the speed of the notes, or what makes this a French impressionist?
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What makes it more like water?
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I think pedal does matter.
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Um I think register matters a lot so that you know like he has a really deep understanding of how the piano works.
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Right.
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So that it's not um sometimes composer's music is very translatable to other instruments, right?
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Where it's like a Bach, you know, is my immediate example where I feel like some of his uh preludes and some of his fugues could go on a bunch of different instruments.
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You can have it on the organ, you can have it on the clavichord, sorry, the harpsichord.
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Um you can even split it up into a string trio and it would sound great.
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The Goldberg variations sound fantastic on string trio.
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Someone did an arrangement of that.
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Yeah, have you played it?
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Yeah.
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Sometimes we think it as like a lot of people at their weddings will only want a string trio instead of a quartet because it's cheaper.
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Yeah.
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But the repertoire for string trio is so much more limited and so much harder because you're compensating for one less instrument.
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Yeah, I like it.
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So so many times we've just brought the Goldberg variation arrangements and tried to sight read them.
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These are actually really hard.
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Yeah, they're really, really hard.
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And you get an appreciation probably for what a pianist has to do as a one person trying to bring out all the voices.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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But I think Debbie C beautifully uses um the instrument that he's on, you know, as a pianist, to I mean, and and as a performer, you do have to be sensitive to these things too.
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You're like, oh wow, how does it sound like water?
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Okay, well, let me take away the pedal and play a little less sensitively.
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I mean, I also played a wrong note, but you know, if you if you don't voice correctly, it does ruin that effect because uh you see more like a pointalistic thing rather than the larger brush strokes.
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Yes, although I will say the harmony is still very impressionist sounding.
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Yeah.
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Even without the reverb and the pedal and free verb, what am I saying?
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By the way, this uh reminds me the chromaticism of that.
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Right.
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But that that harmony this harmonic motion uh really reminds me also of uh we at some point we're talking about Caroline Shaw, but this is a song of hers, that kind of median motion where it's moving in thirds.
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It's called How Do I Find You?
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But it's it's a beautiful uh harmonic motion because it leaves things in a searching quality rather than the normal tonic, subdominant, dominant dissonance resolution, crunch like dissonance resolve, dissonance resolve.
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That's sort of you know That's what we're used to.
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We're used to that in classical music.
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Right.
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I think that's why music like the Caroline Shaw you were playing or this Claire Delune people latch onto it in such an intense way because it really does tap into that like lost uh grand feeling of just like the the mysteries of life.
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Yeah, it's a s it is a search that is never going to end.
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Yeah.
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And I think that feels awe-inspiring and also like simultaneously terrifying.
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Right.
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Like we're on the precipice of something.
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Right.
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Um now, does it God?
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My pedal has been freaking out.
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Sorry.
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Uh this seems hopeful, right?
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We're actually a little more your typical.
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Yeah.
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That moves.
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That's kinda cool.
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It might be like going to A flat or something.
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But all these seventh chords and ninth chords is like it's leaving it so open.
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And it's gonna go da da.
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It could just flop it instead.
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It goes.
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Just keep searching.
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And then E flat minor for a sec.
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And then even higher.
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Then reaching.
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And there's that augmented chord that is so uh tugs at your heartstrings.
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And then finally we do return, but instead of down here where we were before.
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We're an octave higher.
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There's a cloud clouds back up.
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And then what if we climbed even higher than that?
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What is up there?
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I mean we're in like a galaxy right now.
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And then it all just tumbles down.
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That is so gorgeous.
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It it is like we're soaring up here.
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And then a gust of wind.
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Or there's a line in the Paul Verlen poem about these tall fountains that are sobbing with ecstasy.
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And I feel like there could be a little bit of that here.
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It's like pure ecstasy and joy.
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Um, but it's sobbing.
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Those are like giant teardrops.
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Giant tears that are falling.
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And then we have to catch our breath.
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And now the melody's gonna return.
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But when it does, notice how the harmony has changed underneath it.
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Just that just that C flat, that bittersweetness.
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It's like a deeper knowledge.
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It's like a pain that comes with wisdom.
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This is like all the dancers starting one by one to leave.
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We do end looking upward.
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We do resolve.
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We do resolve, and we end up kind of gazing again at the moon.
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Right, it is resolved, but it's voiced almost not resolved.
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Because I guess the true truly resolved resolution would be that's with the D flat on top, but we have the fifth.
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It's almost like ending it with that question.
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Oh man.
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That'd be brilliant.
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Yeah.
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It also, you know, this piece starts with such ambiguity because the key is D flat, but you don't know that until the third chord, because this is an F minor and this is an F minor triad, so which that is in the end, that mystery is resolved in the recap of the melody because we have.
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Oh, okay, it's D flat major.
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But in the recap, it's a full expression of F minor.
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So he's he's leaning into that melancholy in the return.
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And this feels extra suspended, not just because it's up here, not just because we're in minor all of a sudden, but because this F is like a pedal point that's returning with every measure.
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It's this constant until we.
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Finally descend.
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So there's just there's so many little details like that that enrich or enhance that feeling.
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Right.
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It's just one of those pieces.
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It's one of those pieces that deserves to be as famous as it is.
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But is it also just as famous as it is because it happened to be used in a few very like popular commercials?
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Like are there other well obviously I love the piece.
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It's it's so beautiful.
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Like what effect does that have?
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.960
Well, because are there other pieces that we just don't even hear?
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And and how much of the familiarity is in how much are we influen how much are we influenced by familiarity?
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Probably a lot.
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I I'm not gonna discount that.
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I think I'm just relieved that upon further examination, there is evidence for why this is so goddamn beautiful.
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It's not just um I I don't I didn't go back and look and say, well, you know, there's actually not a lot going on here.
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Right.
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Like but does that ever happen where you think something is so moving and then you analyze it and you actually think, eh, it's garbage.
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I'm trying to think of examples.
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Can you think of an example?
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I I do like we were talking about this earlier where it's like that moved me.
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Now let me figure out why it moved me.
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Why it moved and there's usually a reason.
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It's not just random.
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Yeah, and there's a lot of there are a lot of pieces that I just love, and I I can tell you why they move me because of the harmonies and the chords that are being used and the voicing.
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:55.359
And then we have friends whose names we won't say, but we have certain people who would scoff at us liking those pieces and would use the same things that I like about it against the piece.
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Like, well, yeah, because it's just this chord progression, of course you like it.
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:00.000
Yeah.
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It's you know, you're it's almost like you're being duped.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And it's right, oh, of course, the deceptive cadence to a flat six, right?
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Oldest trick in the book.
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And it's I mean, obviously there's some merit to that, but it's not like all art has to be a crazy inventive new thing.
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:27.039
I mean, think about films.
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There's some really weird movies that I've found really interesting and I enjoy.
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I also like just really well done simple films.
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Also, like, why do I love Ace Ventura pet detective?
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Like, like why do you love Ace Ventura?
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Because it's hilarious.
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But I mean, maybe comedies, especially like that, where it's like I think uh you know, uh basically you have to appreciate something on its own terms.
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Whereas like some people compare apples to oranges, some people are like this Paul Thomas Anderson film is so much more profound than Dumb and Dumber, too, you know.
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Right.
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But it's like, okay, like you you have to immediately uh like come in or um on that movie's terms in order to enjoy it.
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Like analyze it for it.
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Don't analyze it against something that it doesn't deserve or need to be analyzed against.
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And the same can probably be stated about music, where like uh you know, um a piece, uh maybe a a fluffy small piece by Tchaikovsky might feel cheesy next to um something that Brahms poured his soul into that is like very, very uh carefully and uh uh worthy of analysis, let's say, that he worked on for months.
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:08.319
I mean, it's it's easy for people to say, well, Tchaikovsky's a little more cheesy or something, but it's like well, his influences are different, his purpose for writing it is different.
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:26.559
It's a context, and probably I'm sure you can think of comedians criticizing other comedians where you're of course there's all sorts of different we were having a conversation earlier about different stand-up comedians on like sort of party acts versus not party acts, like people who are Yes.
00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:34.799
But what I find interesting is the more time goes on, and the more because we don't just forget artists when they die, right?
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A lot of artists, especially classical music composers, we still talk, we're talking about Debut C, we're talking about Beethoven, yeah, and we still talk about dead comedians like George Carlin and Richard Pryor.
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So the more time goes on, just the more artists there are that we're talking about, and the more works, the more works are in the canon of and different styles are like done over and over again to the point where now we can say, Well, why would you ever compare, you know, Dumb and Dumber to um Jim Carrey's you know, one flew over the cuckoo's nest.
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:13.920
Yeah, one is you know deep and quality and one is like dumb and dumber.
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:14.559
Yeah.
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:28.799
But to counter that, you know, when movies like Dumb and Dumber were first starting to be made, I could understand people, you know, finding them to be like, well, what is this?
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:43.599
Like what and were the people making them trying to, I don't know if this is a wild idea or makes any sense, but were the people making those movies that we now categorize as like, well, it's a dumb comedy, and you meet it at the dumb comedy level.
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:46.960
But when it was first out, it was just this new movie.
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:48.720
And and what was the intention?
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:56.240
Were they, you know, just stooping to make something that was, you know, more easily digestible?
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:10.000
Were they just trying to be funny and the only way they knew how I you know, but now that we have like everything is so categorized and so defensible because we have so much other stuff like it to compare it to.
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:10.640
Yeah.
00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:15.440
It's it is like, well, why would you compare Paul Thomas Anderson to the hangover?
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:15.759
You know?
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:16.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:25.200
And it's like, well, yeah, you sh you shouldn't now, but but when there was less out there, it was almost easier to compare them.
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:26.559
Is that anything?
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:27.039
Yeah, I don't know.
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:36.400
Well, I think I think it's it's nice to remember that in the present time, whenever that present time is, it should feel like a sandbox.
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:53.599
Where you mean, in other words, like people are just trying to make m let's say movies or music either for entertainment, either to be profound, either maybe sometimes in the same movie, you know, and and and it shouldn't there is no category yet, like you're saying.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:54.160
Right.
00:28:54.400 --> 00:29:07.680
Um and then these things calcify into genres that that we look back on and say, aha, that's a genre, like the Western is a genre that becomes a cliche.
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:13.279
But at the time when the Westerns were coming out, it was just this new inventive thing that felt creative and alive.
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:32.480
And like so, and uh what I love, I guess, especially is when a composer contains has the feels clearly feels the freedom to write in a lot of different modes and genres, even within their own repertoire, like Mozart.
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:39.519
I mean, is obviously silly a lot of the time, right?
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:51.200
He'll he'll write a theme and variations on Twinkle Twinkle because many, many different reasons to show off, to play to the crowd, to entertain people, to show how hey, look what I can do.
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:57.200
You know, and I can change the harmony and I can throw this around.
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:01.359
And he'll also write incredibly beautiful deep music like the fantasy and D minor.
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:07.920
So it's like let's all it's kind of like let's all relax with the comparing, you know?
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:13.839
Well, let's all relax with comparing, but also I think this is gonna counter that.
00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:21.039
Does like do genres kind of excuse shitty art sometimes?
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:41.839
You know, and to like the extreme version is now with all like there's so much content on social media, and like there's a category called like influencers, and their videos are sometimes like just them getting ready in a mirror, and you kind of can't criticize it in a way because like well, they're doing they're doing the thing that so many people do.
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:46.079
It's it's a get ready with me, like it has a has a name.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:50.400
So you kind of and you find yourself watching these things, yeah.
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:55.119
And so you almost can't criticize it in the same way because it has because we've put a name on it.
00:30:55.359 --> 00:31:07.039
I mean, you can still just say I hate get ready, get ready with me videos, or I hate horror films, or I hate that you can hate genres, but then you're limiting yourself because there could be someone who does really compelling get ready with me videos.
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:14.559
There could be a horror film that you might love if you actually let yourself watch it, but you quote, don't like horror, so you never watch it.
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:14.880
Yeah.
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:22.960
So it's both very genres are both very limiting, but also allow us to accept like so much more.
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:33.039
Yeah, and and it's a little bit on the topic of structure and rules are necessary for creativity, too.
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:33.920
Right, right.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:39.039
So, like what does it even mean for something to be genreless?
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:49.279
I mean, you know, there's so many categories now of everything that it's okay to be in one.
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:53.440
Like, like in other words, that's not the point, you know?
00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:00.079
Like the point is more what do you do, what voice do you have inside of that genre?
00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:00.640
Right?
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:14.799
So I think what I think what it is is like when you when you feel a run-of-the-mill X or a run-of-the-mill Y, like, oh yep, this is a an Adam Sandler style comedy that blah blah blah.
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:23.839
It and this is where timing matters, where like an Adam Sandler style comedy, when it was first coming out, was utterly awesome to so many different people.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:41.119
It was just like, whoa, like Happy Gilmore is this like bizarre new, like he's acting, he's acting like a child in like an over-the-top way that everyone kind of knows, but also everyone's acting everyone else is acting normal and it's kind of surreal, but like somehow it works.
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:50.559
But now, if you look back on it and start to make that kind of movie, it doesn't hold up anymore because it's like you're a victim to your own success.
00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:54.240
Once you pave the way, you're on an instant downfall.
00:32:54.480 --> 00:33:07.440
And now we don't have as much of like I mean, I wonder what it was like pitching one of the early Adam Sandler movies where they like, it's like a this movie, or was it just I don't know, it's just our own thing.
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:08.640
We can do whatever I want.
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:09.920
Because I never see that anymore.
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:17.920
I get sent so many scripts and descriptions, like breakdowns for things, whether it's like I'm gonna be auditioning for a part in it, or someone wants me to read the script.
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:20.720
And it's always like, it's like this and this.
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:23.359
Like they want to say what it's like, the tone.
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:32.240
And I understand saying that just because you want to give someone like I guess a lens for which to read the work, but also what if you didn't?
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.039
And you just let it be its own thing.
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:46.640
But but you know, we're so scared of um this is a whole other topic about the entertainment industry and like how we don't take as many risks anymore, but we're so scared of taking risks that we have to find something it's like.
00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:52.240
Like when I was making my movie, I had to be like, Well, it's like uh Francis Ha meets inside Lewin Davis.
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:57.039
Like I had to give, even though those are both like pretty individual movies, yeah.
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:04.960
That like, but even so even the quirky like individual stuff is its own because it's like we're naming everything.
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:08.960
The people who want to sell that want to know how to package that.
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:09.679
Exactly.
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:14.639
And and they in a way it's not it's not treating the public with respect.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:27.119
It's saying like it's saying like, look, people are dumb and they need to know uh how to package in their own brains, how can I generatize your movie in in two seconds?
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:32.079
And the thing is, this is so whatever, I don't mean to talk about my movie.
00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:38.639
I would bet you if you watched my movie and then immediately watched Francis Hawaii inside Lou and Davis, you'd be like, it's not like that.
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:39.840
Very different at all.
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:54.400
It's my movie's actually a lot more like this other movie I watched recently, like called uh I'd watched it before, but I rewatched it Happiness by Todd Swans, and I was like, oh, there's so many similar like shots and kind of timing things, even though the movie subject matter-wise is completely different.
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:57.280
But it's like Is that what's Philip Zimmer Hoffman?
00:34:57.440 --> 00:34:58.000
He's in that, yeah.
00:34:58.159 --> 00:34:59.920
Okay, yeah, I think I saw that a long time ago.
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:04.000
It's just oh, it's one of my favorite movies and Dylan Baker, who's in my movie too.
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:10.559
Oh yeah, but anyway, it's it's just like this this really frustrating um categorization.
00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:12.719
Do you would you okay?
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:13.599
Here's a question.
00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:22.719
As somebody who's trying to, I'm trying to like do my own, I feel like I'm trying to do my own thing right now, like talking and playing and stuff.
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:24.719
What category would I be?
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:26.079
Like what is the thing that I'm doing?
00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:26.639
Right.
00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:29.039
I mean, we were talking about this earlier because I don't know.
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:37.039
Yeah, like public speaker, but are you a but are you really just like a recital pianist who with a mix of public speaking and right?
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:44.400
And yeah, I mean you have to have some sort of name on it because people need to kind of know what they're going to.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:49.599
Like people aren't gonna just unless I like I think more mystery the better.
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:50.320
I just want to be a good idea.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:53.440
But then mystery is the brand or the cat, you know what I mean?
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:55.679
Like this guy who doesn't tell you.
00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:56.960
You don't know what it's gonna be.
00:35:57.519 --> 00:35:58.719
You can't escape it, right?
00:35:58.800 --> 00:35:59.760
Right, right, right.
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:00.639
Yeah.
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:06.320
Anyway, I think it'll I I I think these things organically like unfold, right?
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:21.760
And it's best to maybe, maybe artists that succumb too early to their branding suffer because it is like if you're told by a marketing person or a PR person, like, okay, you we we need to brand this thing.
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:24.320
We need to figure out what you are so we can sell it.
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:40.239
If you do that too early, without it just uh without allowing your own audience to tell you who you are, your own audience, the people who you're speaking to, like and who who are being affected by it, to say, oh, you're doing this for me.
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:45.519
You're you're you're moving me in this way, or you're making me laugh, or you're you're showing me something.
00:36:45.760 --> 00:37:00.559
Um let them tell you what you're doing for them and then work from there rather than manufacturing that brand and then trying to sell it to an audience that you haven't yet built, you know?
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:14.239
I think the allure of overnight success that seems to be it's not still that possible, but with social media it almost could be because there's instant virality and people who sort of hit the jackpot right away.
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:23.840
Because of that allure and that seeming possibility, we are quick to brand ourselves because we're like, okay, I know I there is a path to make money with this, so let's get the brand going.
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:25.840
Let's let's like be as efficient as possible.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:30.400
There, we're not letting ourselves have that time to develop.
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:44.159
And this is the case with stand-up comedians a lot now, because you can post a clip of your stand-up and it might get a ton of views, even if you're only a year into comedy, which is like you should not be no one should be paying to see you a year in.
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:46.480
Like you're not worthy of the company.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:48.079
You haven't worked, you haven't worked enough.
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:53.440
Yeah, and so you haven't developed enough material and have the confidence to have a voice.
00:37:53.920 --> 00:38:15.039
Obviously, it's an over I don't mean some comedians might be good a year in and you should get paid, but you know what I'm saying, just in general, like like I I wasn't even thinking about making money as a comedian until maybe five years in at the earliest, but but that was a different time and um we're robbing ourselves of a lot of exploration.
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:37.280
All that to say, I think Claire Delune does transcend whatever like genre or popularity we put on it because I think even people who are like against you know commercial stuff for what which this piece has become, yeah, not to not because WC necessarily won wanted that.
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:42.400
And so does, you know, Beethoven Moonlight sonata is a great example.
00:38:42.639 --> 00:39:03.119
Speaking of moon, I mean skipping on the moon theme for a second, but the first moment of that is like listening to listening to that in its day, like being a truly shocking opening for a sonata where like most sonatas start with a with a theme.
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:05.039
Like, okay, let's like get to it.
00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:06.159
What are the music materials?
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:07.440
And then what's the second theme?
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:08.400
What's the development?
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:10.239
Hey, let's go on a little journey together.
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:12.639
And he's just like, I'm not gonna give you any of that.
00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:15.039
I'm barely giving you a melody, I'm not giving you anything.
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:26.159
I'm just giving you a sad, slow chord that's falling and and transforming into something that's really deep and dark, right?
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:31.840
And I'm not gonna let you off the hook, I'm gonna keep it there for the next five minutes.
00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:38.400
There's a melody that's that basically sounds like a a tolling bell signal signaling death.
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:40.159
You know, that's all I'm gonna give you.
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:46.639
That was utterly shocking then, and now it's like a cliche of sadness.
00:39:47.760 --> 00:40:05.519
I mean, or or at least it could be, uh, unless until you until this is something I'm really I think I believe in and I'm trying to do, until you go back to the music with fresh eyes by discovering some of the materials in it, so you can develop a fresh relationship with it.
00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:12.480
Rather than let's throw Beethoven for a second, all the context we have for him, even him, just out the window for a sec.
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:15.760
Let's just look at the music and see what it's doing.
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:22.960
And if we can like get inside the music, then we can get inside the original spirit of it.
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:23.440
Right.
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:39.280
And then you can shed the other context, like somebody crying in a movie and Beethoven Moonlight sonata being played and invite new context that that feels more personal to you.
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:40.239
Right.
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:55.760
It it's hard to do that though, because it it's both an introducing of new context and also a shedding or a um kind of a chipping off of other cultural context that we've subconsciously imbued in there.
00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:56.639
Right.
00:40:56.960 --> 00:41:03.920
And it's really impossible to like never be biased in any way.
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:12.000
You're always coming with your own history, your own traumas, your own pre-conceived notions about everything.
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:24.000
And I think it's a noble act to try to shed as many of those things as possible, especially when you're talking about other people, you know, because you don't want to discriminate, you don't want to judge people based on external things or whatever.
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:27.679
But with art, it's also an important thing to do.
00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:36.159
Um to try to, you know, expand beyond just you know this.
00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:46.239
Well, I'll I'll um I want to play you another famous piece because let's see if we can what's what do you think is more famous?
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:47.440
Well, Beethoven Seven.
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:48.159
What's more famous?
00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:50.800
Beethoven seven, what's more famous?
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:52.159
Scale one and ten right now.
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:54.159
These are the top seven most famous classical people.
00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:56.400
What if we were those type of YouTubers?
00:41:57.039 --> 00:41:58.880
Coming in at number nine, Beethoven.
00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:00.320
Make sure to like and subscribe.
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:02.239
Smash that like button.
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:05.519
Um, Beethoven 7, the Allegretto movement.
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:06.079
Okay.
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:07.199
Oh, yeah.
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:10.079
Um Brahms 118 number two.
00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:11.039
Okay.
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:15.280
Most people listen to, by the way, are like, what's Brahms?
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:16.159
Okay, okay.
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:21.280
Also, most people are saying what's Brahm, what's Beethoven's Beethoven's Allegretto, but you would know it if you heard it.
00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:22.880
Why don't we do that really quick?
00:42:23.280 --> 00:43:06.079
Okay, so Beethoven uh Beethoven Symphony number seven, the second movement, the Allegretto movement, begins with this straightforward but unresolved, kind of like this fifth in the fifth in the bottom and the top, um, a minor chord, and then this is uh a music that Leonard Bernstein said a kid could have written, right?
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:10.079
It's really simple harmonically, really simple rhythmically.
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:12.559
There's nothing that complicated going on here.
00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:14.239
That's the beauty of Beethoven.
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:21.840
A simple pattern that is laying the foundation for him to build on top of.
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:25.679
So it's kind of like a vertical, you gotta think vertically here.
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:34.480
He repeats it so that we really get it into our bones.
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:42.800
But how he layers on top of this music is really special.
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:58.719
So we get this inner voice, but the harmony isn't changing underneath, so it's basically we feel that fundamental pattern.
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:08.480
But we have a human quality above that objective framing.
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:14.159
And it's like a voice that's slowly growing inside of us.
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:33.679
It doesn't get boring because even though we know what's coming, it's more like an emerging of something we know has always been there.
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:56.800
So you kind of can just feel like this inside of you as each layer of voice is high.
00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:06.960
The tension is in that expectation.
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:19.039
It's like there is something inevitable inside us that's gaining passion and courage and growing in a way that Beethoven is just naturally tapping into with this music.
00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:20.079
That's how I feel it.
00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:26.079
You don't need shock to feel anxiety and tension and emotion, right?
00:46:26.239 --> 00:46:31.679
It's shock can be shocking and then uh emotional as a reaction.
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:35.119
But like you're saying, this is we almost feel what's coming.
00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:37.039
Although I would argue against that a little bit.
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:42.079
I mean, the r the repetition of it is almost unexpected.
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:46.800
Like it's it's a little it's like wow, dare I say radical.
00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:50.320
Um, and then what's happening on top is changing.
00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:52.320
Yeah, so there the texture is changing.
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:56.559
There is surprise and a bit of shock, I think, especially when it really climaxes.
00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:01.920
But I think your idea of when we do feel like we know what's coming next.
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:06.400
I mean, it's like when you're watching a movie and you're like, ah, I know what's gonna happen.
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:08.239
Kind of the dramatic irony.
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:09.840
Yeah, I know where this is going.
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:10.159
Yeah.
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:10.880
Shoot.
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:14.159
Yeah, there's an intentional play on that tension.
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:14.800
Yeah.
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:24.000
Um and and that again, that's like why why time and memory is so vital here.
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:34.639
Because you're working with a human being who needs to assemble these repetitive patterns and understand how they're developing and where they came from.
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:43.519
That climax is only as effective as it is because in some way we understand where we came from a minute ago.
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:44.159
Right.
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:47.360
Like on a subconscious level.
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:56.559
Well, it's it's more emotionally meaningful where you when you know where someone came from or when you can sense where they came where it came from.
00:47:56.639 --> 00:47:56.960
Yeah.
00:47:57.199 --> 00:47:59.199
Because you're getting that context.
00:47:59.360 --> 00:47:59.599
Yeah.
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:07.679
And it doesn't mean you need a whole backstory, but you can imply the backstory with the current material.
00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:10.079
That goes for all forms of art, I think.
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:12.400
It goes for music, goes for film.
00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:13.760
All right, covered it.
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:14.880
All forms of art.
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:15.679
Not all form.
00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:17.199
I mean, I don't know about painting.
00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:19.360
I are you into visual art?
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:22.400
I'm so I'm it's so uh not my thing.
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:24.559
Uh not so not so much.
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:33.360
I I do think um I need like when I go to a museum or something, I really want to be educated by like a guide, you know.
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:36.400
It's probably how most people feel about classical music.
00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:39.920
And that's what you know, because you're giving that guidance.
00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:40.559
Yeah.
00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:45.440
I mean, I could I definitely want a guide in whatever art form I'm viewing.
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:46.000
Yeah.
00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:52.559
Um, why would you not want to be near an expert who can point things out to you that you didn't see?
00:48:52.719 --> 00:49:12.480
There is that value of like, well, let me just let it wash over me and let me develop my own personal you would have never thought of it this way if you knew all the context and what a beautiful new but when you have background and context, then you can build on that and disagree with things and come up with your own.
00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:15.679
Yeah, it's not like your creativity is killed by knowledge.
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:28.800
I that is one thing that when I was in school, I was at uh when I when uh we were at Juilliard together, I went to the theory teacher uh and I said something The one theory teacher at Juilliard.
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:37.280
No, yeah, no, there were many, but uh the I studied with a couple, but this guy, I was almost named him, but I said, Yeah, we don't need to name him.
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:39.760
So um and I said something very naive.
00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:51.599
I came to his office hours and I was like, Yeah, but I'm just worried that you know, descri like isn't it a if you start describing things theoretically, like it kills the magic, you know?
00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:53.519
Like, am I gonna lose?
00:49:53.920 --> 00:50:10.639
I was concerned even then with losing a kind of um innocence, innocent and pure connection that I felt I had with the music where it was like I'm moved by this, I don't wanna know why.
00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:19.039
Because everyone, because anytime somebody says the word augmented six chord, I I I go, uh okay, like great.
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:21.119
Is that what's so beautiful about this part?
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:21.840
Wow.
00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:23.440
Like that means nothing to me.
00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:24.639
Oh, it's a Neapolitan.
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:29.840
Oh, it's a Neapolitan, or what the pedal point or the end of the development.
00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:36.000
Now, no, now I talk that way, actually, but it's a means to the end of expression.
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:38.719
We come we become what we are most afraid.
00:50:39.199 --> 00:50:40.559
That which we are most afraid of.
00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:43.360
I don't know, it sounds like a tragedy that probably exists.
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:44.800
Definitely.
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:47.280
Um both sitting exactly the same way.
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:48.000
Whoa.
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:51.280
Anyway, it's like form um patterns.
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:57.199
Uh and he was really pissed that I said that.
00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:57.920
Pissed.
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:08.800
He was f he was clearly upset that I was like because for him it was probably me trying to dismiss his life's work, his entire life's work, right?
00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:09.039
Right.
00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:17.920
Like his he all he does is study form and structure and theory and like try to try to explain and analyze like Beethoven's music.
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:24.000
And I was coming in there like, yeah, but it's not uh that's not what music's all about.
00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:26.960
Well, okay, well, what was the actual purpose of your visit?
00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:30.960
Were you like just coming in to tell him your thoughts about his class?
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:32.239
It is kind of douchey.
00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:32.719
Hang on.
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:33.280
No, no, no.
00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:34.880
It wasn't a comment session.
00:51:34.960 --> 00:51:36.960
I wasn't trying to just criticize him.
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:39.840
I was expressing a fear, like legitimately.
00:51:39.920 --> 00:52:08.480
I was like, please sell me on theory because like I have this fear that because I have it's not coming from nothing, it's coming from my experience sitting there and somebody telling me these theory words and me losing the magic in this amazing piece and being stuck in the jargon of all the theoretical concepts in the analysis when I know that Beethoven didn't sit there thinking about chord structures, he just composed from his heart.
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:09.360
You know what I mean?
00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:21.360
So, like theory and analysis is a post-art kind of uh situation where you after the fact you look back and you analyze and you say, Wow, look how these structures work.
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:34.960
A sunflower doesn't think about its uh uh Fibonacci sequence spirals that it has, you know, like it's just amazing, it's just an expression of nature.
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:39.360
But okay, this makes me think of because there's something to what you're saying.
00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:39.920
Ooh.
00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:50.000
But I think uh what makes uh music theory in particular so fascinating is that usually we learn music before we learn the theory.
00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:53.039
It's almost like how we learn to speak before we can read.
00:52:53.199 --> 00:52:55.199
We learn to speak before we learn to read.
00:52:55.840 --> 00:53:00.639
So uh does reading ruin speaking?
00:53:01.119 --> 00:53:01.440
No.
00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:04.159
Not I would say generally no.
00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:04.800
No.
00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:18.719
So, and you know, language is arguably is the first technology humans created, and language has arguably, you know, robbed us of of a more rich, you know, uh physical life, but that's a different topic.
00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:23.760
Um, I had a math teacher in high school, and I will name him because this I think this is really cool.
00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:37.840
His name is Paul Lockhart, and I took a class of his called What is Math, and he had this whole argument that he wishes math were taught more like how music was taught, where you play with it first and then you learn all the terms.
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:41.679
Because math from day one, you're learning what one plus one equals two.
00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:50.239
You're learning the functions, you're learning the theory rather than just playing with shapes and counting things and immediately.
00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:50.800
Yeah, yeah.
00:53:50.880 --> 00:54:03.599
So he had this whole essay, I think it was called The Mathematician's Apology, sort of arguing for math to be taught more the way music is generally taught, where you learn learn it in a more visceral way, and then you learn the theory.
00:54:04.079 --> 00:54:13.199
But I'm wondering how did your theory teacher express offense and then did he sell you on it, or did he just like get out of my office?
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:18.239
Uh his argument convinced me, but it wasn't compelling.
00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:28.639
He was basically like it's it only makes the music more um expressive to you and more powerful to know more.
00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:36.960
Basically, it's kind of like knowledge is power, like sure, you know, kind of like it will only amplify your appreciation for it.
00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:40.480
And I just kind of took his word for it, and I actually believe that it's true.
00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:41.840
That's how you feel now in general.
00:54:42.079 --> 00:54:43.840
It is absolutely how I feel now.
00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:58.480
Um I think you need I think you need someone who can marry the two, like who can also to not put so much weight when you're in a class learning, you gotta learn the stuff.
00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:00.159
That's the that's the reason you're there.
00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:06.719
So you're being tested on it, you have to memorize it, and and it feels like it has this enormous weight to know this.
00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:22.880
But the truth is, if someone and if someone said, Look, you don't absolutely in your musical career, it's rare that you're gonna have to be able to tell someone this is an augmented a French augmented six chord as opposed to a German one, right?
00:55:23.199 --> 00:55:40.719
But might this information only make you more curious about how these um forms in music interact with each other and how a composer might be using this language to create a beautiful essay.
00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:41.440
Right.
00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:44.159
Did you ever have Sam Zeman at Juilliard?
00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:54.159
Because he he was a theory teacher who did a really good job of explaining the theory, but but always alongside like the emotion and the how ama listen to how amazing this piece is.
00:55:54.400 --> 00:55:55.920
Now listen to how amazing this core.
00:55:56.159 --> 00:56:00.639
You're gonna I tell you, you're gonna write home to your parents tonight and say, I heard the most beautiful piece of music.
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:02.079
And like horrible.
00:56:02.559 --> 00:56:09.599
I think you would have loved his class because it was really marrying the two, just like the theory only made it better.
00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:10.000
Yeah.
00:56:10.719 --> 00:56:10.960
Yeah.
00:56:11.119 --> 00:56:23.599
Um I think it's I think it's so important to uh remember to get out of the conceptual like uh the cause we cause we do this all the time in our lives.
00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:33.519
I mean, uh we do this with our identities too, not to get too abstract, but like Isabel is a certain way to you.
00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:35.599
She sucks.
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:37.039
According to you.
00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:41.760
But that's not uh reality.
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:48.559
Like reality is is so much more abstract and impossible to nail down and not and not conceptual to identities.
00:56:48.800 --> 00:57:00.480
Like we define things in language that we've created through language, which is a limiting um set of communication.
00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:11.280
But it's necessary for us to understand each other on some level, on some societal level, on some level that uh promotes interaction and culture and all this stuff.
00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:19.840
But let's not forget that it's something we make up in order for things to seem easier to our brains.
00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:20.239
Right.
00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:32.639
Like a tree, we look outside and we say, that's a tree, but like a tree is this beautiful dialogue between the sun feeding into the earth.
00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:34.400
Yeah.
00:57:34.639 --> 00:57:34.880
Exactly.
00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:38.239
And there's water tree, end and begin, you know, exactly.
00:57:38.639 --> 00:57:38.960
Exactly.
00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:43.840
It's not something that has definite uh endings and beginnings, and neither do we.
00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:44.320
Right.
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:55.760
And but like we we don't have to think that like that all the time, but it's important to like remember to take a step back and to think all of this is useful, but for what end?
00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:57.280
What is the end?
00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:11.199
For me, it's it's connection, you know, it's it's a feeling of oneness and connection with uh spirit or a community or others, it's a feeling of sharing, it's a thing that lights you up more than anything, whatever that thing is.
00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:11.840
Yeah.
00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:18.880
Um so and we're so focused on the individual now, you know, especially.
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:26.159
I mean, as as society progresses, it's more and more about the individual or your your little family, your insular family.
00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:31.119
We I'm the most happy when I'm around other people and not thinking about myself.
00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:31.760
Me too.
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:37.280
Because that's how I think we're still hardwired to to be naturally.
00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:40.960
But um just checking out like and subscribe.
00:58:41.679 --> 00:58:42.559
It has been an hour.
00:58:43.039 --> 00:58:43.280
Okay.
00:58:43.519 --> 00:58:46.000
I think this like it's I think we're done.
00:58:46.159 --> 00:58:47.920
I think we're getting we're starting to get out of here.
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:52.159
Did I play Claire Delune earlier or was that a different podcast?
00:58:52.480 --> 00:58:53.280
Is it the same one?
00:58:53.840 --> 00:58:54.239
Same one.
00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:55.360
Holy mother of God.
00:58:55.519 --> 00:58:56.400
Okay, let's stop.
00:58:56.480 --> 00:58:57.360
Let's get some food.
00:58:57.519 --> 00:58:58.079
Okay, all right.
00:58:58.159 --> 00:58:58.639
Thanks, guys.
00:58:58.719 --> 00:59:00.000
Thank you so much for bearing with us.
00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:02.480
Thank you for listening, and we'll catch you then.
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:05.840
Get outside your own head, you know, connect with some people.
00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:07.280
Or not.
00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:07.760
I don't know.
00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:09.199
Get off your phone.
00:59:09.519 --> 00:59:11.039
All right, talk to you soon.
00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:11.679
Bye.
00:00:00.719 --> 00:00:05.759
Today I'm gonna play one of the most famous pieces in all the piano literature.
00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:31.519
WC starts this way up in the clouds, gazing at the moon.
00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:41.200
Slowly but surely we're making our way down to earth with this bass note here.
00:00:54.079 --> 00:01:17.599
Each of these phrases is like us reaching for something spiritual, some connection, fulfillment, and then there's this bitter sweetness to this chord.
00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:20.159
It's this minor second here on the bottom.
00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:29.760
Melancholy.
00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:51.840
It's this fragility, vulnerability, and kind of realization that all of our human wants and passions, desires, dreams are going to fade.
00:01:52.159 --> 00:02:09.919
But first we can reach for them courageously and passionately and find some beauty in how they'll eventually fade, too.
00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:41.439
That augmented chord.
00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:47.599
Edging.
00:02:47.919 --> 00:03:09.439
Edging, that space uh that is created between reality and our dreams, our hopes, our desires, our um what like human con the gift of human consciousness, which is to want something more than what's just right in front of us.
00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:23.199
And to take from sort of the spiritual and extra what's other, you know, the otherworldly and take it in and process it as humans.
00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:25.120
That didn't really make sense.
00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:29.120
But but I was thinking about the beginning when you were like, we're up in the clouds.
00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:40.800
And then when it goes down and it's played, that same passage is played more filled in.
00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:44.000
Right, because that's the opening.
00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:47.120
And he could continue with the Okay, sure.
00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:51.039
That's like the humanization.
00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:56.080
Yeah.
00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:57.120
Oh, that's beautiful.
00:03:57.199 --> 00:03:58.960
I I hadn't thought of it that way.
00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:20.160
That it's like the seed of the thought or the sometimes a register, like literally where we are on the piano or where the comp composer chooses to put the music in is is poetic.
00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:26.720
That alone, you know, rather than I mean, obviously, it's like unrecognizable down there almost.
00:04:27.040 --> 00:05:03.920
There's something like it's not just a concept, it's not just uh superficial that this register leads itself to a kind of gazing upward and a feeling of hope and wonder, you know, that I guess Debusy through this descent like you were describing is us coming back to is it coming back to reality or is it gaining confidence in that small thought that we had in the opening?
00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:09.839
And it's still in the same register, it's just now supported more.
00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:10.399
Yeah.
00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:14.959
With more sort of humanity or coming down to earth.
00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:18.480
I don't think of it as a confidence, although I like that.
00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:24.959
I think of it more as like this is the pure soul part in the beginning.
00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:33.920
Like it's just a soul from something non-human, and now we're attaching that soul and contextualizing it a little bit more.
00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:34.800
Yeah.
00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:42.639
It's more um also could be more communal.
00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:51.600
Like now this came from the individual to all of humanity.
00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:59.519
Or at least some kind of commonality between us in this search that we're not alone.
00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:12.079
It's so beautiful, and then it's almost like thwarted by this uh pain.
00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:28.319
You know, the pain of to me, um, a melancholy about the ephemerality of life, of you know, that everything is fleeting, necessarily, and everything beautiful, especially, is fleeting.
00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:33.040
We can only hang on to it for a split second.
00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:38.959
And the distance between these cores is what's so profoundly beautiful, right?
00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:39.519
Mm-hmm.
00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:44.480
And the more you try to hold on to it, sort of the more painful it is.
00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:50.480
It's like a lack of acceptance of the ephemeral ephemerality.
00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:57.040
This is like passion building.
00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:02.000
And this piece is about uh dancers.
00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:02.720
It is?
00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:03.519
Well, kind of.
00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:16.160
I mean a bergamasque is a type of dance, but it's also a style of folk music, but that's the title of the because this is this is one of three pieces in a in a suite, right?
00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:16.560
Right.
00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:18.000
We only know this one.
00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:20.879
Well, this is by far the most famous.
00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:30.160
But the poem that it's based on by Paul Verlaine describes these kind of masked uh dancers that a suite is called what?
00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:31.600
That it's from that the suite.
00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:34.000
Okay, which is based on the poem.
00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:39.759
Well, uh this I just know that this the poem by Paul Verlaine is called Claire Delune.
00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:40.000
Okay.
00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:42.560
So the specific piece is uh inspired by that poem.
00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:43.040
Okay.
00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:53.680
And it is describing this kind of wonderful celebration of these people who are dancing under the moonlight who are also quite sad at the same time.
00:07:53.920 --> 00:08:02.160
So it's like it's a celebration of life and an acknowledgement that it's all simultaneously fading.
00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:10.000
It's like what can we do but celebrate all of life, you know, including its vanishing.
00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:13.199
And including it's just the nature of reality.
00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:20.480
It's not something that you know, you can't have happy thoughts without the sad, you can't have darkness without light.
00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:28.160
The the moon is providing light, but it's also in darkness.
00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:36.799
And we're constantly living in this kind of shadow, you know, except when we're like directly under a kind of light of the moon.
00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:43.039
So I mean, I think whatever, you can get as deep or superficial as you want with this stuff.
00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:49.519
What I care about is how Debbie portrays these emotions through sound, you know.
00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:54.559
After this big buildup.
00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:15.120
I mean, it's so beautiful too how a composer can have one single note, one single melodic note that changes profoundly as the harmony underneath it changes.
00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:16.720
It's all context.
00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:18.559
It's all context.
00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:33.200
One note, but so beautiful.
00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:42.559
This is in a more grounded place than we started.
00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:49.519
But it's like waves of emotion.
00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:57.679
I mean it's so beautiful how Debussy um sometimes he can really portray water really well, you know, as an impressionist.
00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:26.720
Um he writes pieces that that sweep along the keyboard in a way that hadn't really been done before, you know, because in this sort of style, he's not afraid to stay in one harmony for a while, for probably too long, you know, according to other composers around that time, or right before, where it's like the interest in in composers like Brahms or late romantics were to, where's the change?
00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:28.240
Where exact you know what I mean?
00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:32.000
Like, how are we moving contrapuntally and where are we headed?
00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:49.279
But for Debussy, texture now and color in and gesture is becoming so important to the way he paints the musical environment that almost like an impressionist can sit in one color for a while.
00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:53.120
You don't need to uh, you know, have these distinct uh colors.
00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:55.840
You can really imagine a a world of one.
00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:15.360
What makes it because there are other composers who aren't French impressionists who do sort of uh arpeggios and and almost that same melody and harmonic rhythm and that kind of uh pattern, but what makes is it like the use of the pedal and the speed of the notes, or what makes this a French impressionist?
00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:16.879
What makes it more like water?
00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:19.120
I think pedal does matter.
00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:31.519
Um I think register matters a lot so that you know like he has a really deep understanding of how the piano works.
00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:32.000
Right.
00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:40.000
So that it's not um sometimes composer's music is very translatable to other instruments, right?
00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:50.799
Where it's like a Bach, you know, is my immediate example where I feel like some of his uh preludes and some of his fugues could go on a bunch of different instruments.
00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:56.159
You can have it on the organ, you can have it on the clavichord, sorry, the harpsichord.
00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:01.200
Um you can even split it up into a string trio and it would sound great.
00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:04.000
The Goldberg variations sound fantastic on string trio.
00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:06.240
Someone did an arrangement of that.
00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:07.120
Yeah, have you played it?
00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:07.440
Yeah.
00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:14.399
Sometimes we think it as like a lot of people at their weddings will only want a string trio instead of a quartet because it's cheaper.
00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:14.720
Yeah.
00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:21.039
But the repertoire for string trio is so much more limited and so much harder because you're compensating for one less instrument.
00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:21.759
Yeah, I like it.
00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:26.480
So so many times we've just brought the Goldberg variation arrangements and tried to sight read them.
00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:27.759
These are actually really hard.
00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:30.000
Yeah, they're really, really hard.
00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:35.840
And you get an appreciation probably for what a pianist has to do as a one person trying to bring out all the voices.
00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:36.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:51.279
But I think Debbie C beautifully uses um the instrument that he's on, you know, as a pianist, to I mean, and and as a performer, you do have to be sensitive to these things too.
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:53.519
You're like, oh wow, how does it sound like water?
00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:57.519
Okay, well, let me take away the pedal and play a little less sensitively.
00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:17.279
I mean, I also played a wrong note, but you know, if you if you don't voice correctly, it does ruin that effect because uh you see more like a pointalistic thing rather than the larger brush strokes.
00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:22.320
Yes, although I will say the harmony is still very impressionist sounding.
00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:22.720
Yeah.
00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:27.200
Even without the reverb and the pedal and free verb, what am I saying?
00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:34.159
By the way, this uh reminds me the chromaticism of that.
00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:36.399
Right.
00:13:36.879 --> 00:14:03.200
But that that harmony this harmonic motion uh really reminds me also of uh we at some point we're talking about Caroline Shaw, but this is a song of hers, that kind of median motion where it's moving in thirds.
00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:09.440
It's called How Do I Find You?
00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:32.000
But it's it's a beautiful uh harmonic motion because it leaves things in a searching quality rather than the normal tonic, subdominant, dominant dissonance resolution, crunch like dissonance resolve, dissonance resolve.
00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:34.159
That's sort of you know That's what we're used to.
00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:36.399
We're used to that in classical music.
00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:36.879
Right.
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:55.600
I think that's why music like the Caroline Shaw you were playing or this Claire Delune people latch onto it in such an intense way because it really does tap into that like lost uh grand feeling of just like the the mysteries of life.
00:14:55.919 --> 00:15:00.000
Yeah, it's a s it is a search that is never going to end.
00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:00.399
Yeah.
00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:10.080
And I think that feels awe-inspiring and also like simultaneously terrifying.
00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:10.559
Right.
00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:12.879
Like we're on the precipice of something.
00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:13.440
Right.
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:19.440
Um now, does it God?
00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:21.279
My pedal has been freaking out.
00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:21.919
Sorry.
00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:26.240
Uh this seems hopeful, right?
00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.720
We're actually a little more your typical.
00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:29.600
Yeah.
00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:33.279
That moves.
00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:35.919
That's kinda cool.
00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:38.960
It might be like going to A flat or something.
00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:51.200
But all these seventh chords and ninth chords is like it's leaving it so open.
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:53.360
And it's gonna go da da.
00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.440
It could just flop it instead.
00:15:57.679 --> 00:15:58.320
It goes.
00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:01.919
Just keep searching.
00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:08.799
And then E flat minor for a sec.
00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:11.360
And then even higher.
00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:15.200
Then reaching.
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:20.879
And there's that augmented chord that is so uh tugs at your heartstrings.
00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:27.519
And then finally we do return, but instead of down here where we were before.
00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:30.320
We're an octave higher.
00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:32.799
There's a cloud clouds back up.
00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.159
And then what if we climbed even higher than that?
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:41.679
What is up there?
00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:48.320
I mean we're in like a galaxy right now.
00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:57.519
And then it all just tumbles down.
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:05.039
That is so gorgeous.
00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:08.240
It it is like we're soaring up here.
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:13.839
And then a gust of wind.
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:25.759
Or there's a line in the Paul Verlen poem about these tall fountains that are sobbing with ecstasy.
00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:29.599
And I feel like there could be a little bit of that here.
00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:36.720
It's like pure ecstasy and joy.
00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:38.400
Um, but it's sobbing.
00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:40.000
Those are like giant teardrops.
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:43.920
Giant tears that are falling.
00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:48.880
And then we have to catch our breath.
00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:58.240
And now the melody's gonna return.
00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:11.920
But when it does, notice how the harmony has changed underneath it.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:01.440
Just that just that C flat, that bittersweetness.
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:06.400
It's like a deeper knowledge.
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:14.799
It's like a pain that comes with wisdom.
00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:28.799
This is like all the dancers starting one by one to leave.
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:05.920
We do end looking upward.
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:07.599
We do resolve.
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:13.200
We do resolve, and we end up kind of gazing again at the moon.
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:18.319
Right, it is resolved, but it's voiced almost not resolved.
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:31.039
Because I guess the true truly resolved resolution would be that's with the D flat on top, but we have the fifth.
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:36.640
It's almost like ending it with that question.
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:37.839
Oh man.
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:40.240
That'd be brilliant.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:43.359
Yeah.
00:20:44.160 --> 00:21:07.039
It also, you know, this piece starts with such ambiguity because the key is D flat, but you don't know that until the third chord, because this is an F minor and this is an F minor triad, so which that is in the end, that mystery is resolved in the recap of the melody because we have.
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:12.079
Oh, okay, it's D flat major.
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:21.039
But in the recap, it's a full expression of F minor.
00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:31.119
So he's he's leaning into that melancholy in the return.
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:53.920
And this feels extra suspended, not just because it's up here, not just because we're in minor all of a sudden, but because this F is like a pedal point that's returning with every measure.
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:59.680
It's this constant until we.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.119
Finally descend.
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:12.799
So there's just there's so many little details like that that enrich or enhance that feeling.
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:13.440
Right.
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:14.799
It's just one of those pieces.
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:19.119
It's one of those pieces that deserves to be as famous as it is.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:28.079
But is it also just as famous as it is because it happened to be used in a few very like popular commercials?
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:33.200
Like are there other well obviously I love the piece.
00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:34.880
It's it's so beautiful.
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:36.640
Like what effect does that have?
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.960
Well, because are there other pieces that we just don't even hear?
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:47.920
And and how much of the familiarity is in how much are we influen how much are we influenced by familiarity?
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:48.880
Probably a lot.
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:50.559
I I'm not gonna discount that.
00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:59.119
I think I'm just relieved that upon further examination, there is evidence for why this is so goddamn beautiful.
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:06.319
It's not just um I I don't I didn't go back and look and say, well, you know, there's actually not a lot going on here.
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:06.960
Right.
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:16.079
Like but does that ever happen where you think something is so moving and then you analyze it and you actually think, eh, it's garbage.
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:18.720
I'm trying to think of examples.
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:20.240
Can you think of an example?
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:26.160
I I do like we were talking about this earlier where it's like that moved me.
00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:28.000
Now let me figure out why it moved me.
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:30.319
Why it moved and there's usually a reason.
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:31.759
It's not just random.
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:41.920
Yeah, and there's a lot of there are a lot of pieces that I just love, and I I can tell you why they move me because of the harmonies and the chords that are being used and the voicing.
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:55.359
And then we have friends whose names we won't say, but we have certain people who would scoff at us liking those pieces and would use the same things that I like about it against the piece.
00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:59.519
Like, well, yeah, because it's just this chord progression, of course you like it.
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:00.000
Yeah.
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:02.880
It's you know, you're it's almost like you're being duped.
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:03.839
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:09.200
And it's right, oh, of course, the deceptive cadence to a flat six, right?
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.519
Oldest trick in the book.
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:25.279
And it's I mean, obviously there's some merit to that, but it's not like all art has to be a crazy inventive new thing.
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:27.039
I mean, think about films.
00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:32.400
There's some really weird movies that I've found really interesting and I enjoy.
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:36.720
I also like just really well done simple films.
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:43.759
Also, like, why do I love Ace Ventura pet detective?
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:46.400
Like, like why do you love Ace Ventura?
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:47.200
Because it's hilarious.
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:58.720
But I mean, maybe comedies, especially like that, where it's like I think uh you know, uh basically you have to appreciate something on its own terms.
00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:10.319
Whereas like some people compare apples to oranges, some people are like this Paul Thomas Anderson film is so much more profound than Dumb and Dumber, too, you know.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:10.880
Right.
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:23.599
But it's like, okay, like you you have to immediately uh like come in or um on that movie's terms in order to enjoy it.
00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:26.079
Like analyze it for it.
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:31.279
Don't analyze it against something that it doesn't deserve or need to be analyzed against.
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:57.920
And the same can probably be stated about music, where like uh you know, um a piece, uh maybe a a fluffy small piece by Tchaikovsky might feel cheesy next to um something that Brahms poured his soul into that is like very, very uh carefully and uh uh worthy of analysis, let's say, that he worked on for months.
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:08.319
I mean, it's it's easy for people to say, well, Tchaikovsky's a little more cheesy or something, but it's like well, his influences are different, his purpose for writing it is different.
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:26.559
It's a context, and probably I'm sure you can think of comedians criticizing other comedians where you're of course there's all sorts of different we were having a conversation earlier about different stand-up comedians on like sort of party acts versus not party acts, like people who are Yes.
00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:34.799
But what I find interesting is the more time goes on, and the more because we don't just forget artists when they die, right?
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:44.720
A lot of artists, especially classical music composers, we still talk, we're talking about Debut C, we're talking about Beethoven, yeah, and we still talk about dead comedians like George Carlin and Richard Pryor.
00:26:44.960 --> 00:27:09.039
So the more time goes on, just the more artists there are that we're talking about, and the more works, the more works are in the canon of and different styles are like done over and over again to the point where now we can say, Well, why would you ever compare, you know, Dumb and Dumber to um Jim Carrey's you know, one flew over the cuckoo's nest.
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:13.920
Yeah, one is you know deep and quality and one is like dumb and dumber.
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:14.559
Yeah.
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:28.799
But to counter that, you know, when movies like Dumb and Dumber were first starting to be made, I could understand people, you know, finding them to be like, well, what is this?
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:43.599
Like what and were the people making them trying to, I don't know if this is a wild idea or makes any sense, but were the people making those movies that we now categorize as like, well, it's a dumb comedy, and you meet it at the dumb comedy level.
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:46.960
But when it was first out, it was just this new movie.
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:48.720
And and what was the intention?
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:56.240
Were they, you know, just stooping to make something that was, you know, more easily digestible?
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:10.000
Were they just trying to be funny and the only way they knew how I you know, but now that we have like everything is so categorized and so defensible because we have so much other stuff like it to compare it to.
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:10.640
Yeah.
00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:15.440
It's it is like, well, why would you compare Paul Thomas Anderson to the hangover?
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:15.759
You know?
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:16.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:25.200
And it's like, well, yeah, you sh you shouldn't now, but but when there was less out there, it was almost easier to compare them.
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:26.559
Is that anything?
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:27.039
Yeah, I don't know.
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:36.400
Well, I think I think it's it's nice to remember that in the present time, whenever that present time is, it should feel like a sandbox.
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:53.599
Where you mean, in other words, like people are just trying to make m let's say movies or music either for entertainment, either to be profound, either maybe sometimes in the same movie, you know, and and and it shouldn't there is no category yet, like you're saying.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:54.160
Right.
00:28:54.400 --> 00:29:07.680
Um and then these things calcify into genres that that we look back on and say, aha, that's a genre, like the Western is a genre that becomes a cliche.
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:13.279
But at the time when the Westerns were coming out, it was just this new inventive thing that felt creative and alive.
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:32.480
And like so, and uh what I love, I guess, especially is when a composer contains has the feels clearly feels the freedom to write in a lot of different modes and genres, even within their own repertoire, like Mozart.
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:39.519
I mean, is obviously silly a lot of the time, right?
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:51.200
He'll he'll write a theme and variations on Twinkle Twinkle because many, many different reasons to show off, to play to the crowd, to entertain people, to show how hey, look what I can do.
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:57.200
You know, and I can change the harmony and I can throw this around.
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:01.359
And he'll also write incredibly beautiful deep music like the fantasy and D minor.
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:07.920
So it's like let's all it's kind of like let's all relax with the comparing, you know?
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:13.839
Well, let's all relax with comparing, but also I think this is gonna counter that.
00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:21.039
Does like do genres kind of excuse shitty art sometimes?
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:41.839
You know, and to like the extreme version is now with all like there's so much content on social media, and like there's a category called like influencers, and their videos are sometimes like just them getting ready in a mirror, and you kind of can't criticize it in a way because like well, they're doing they're doing the thing that so many people do.
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:46.079
It's it's a get ready with me, like it has a has a name.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:50.400
So you kind of and you find yourself watching these things, yeah.
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:55.119
And so you almost can't criticize it in the same way because it has because we've put a name on it.
00:30:55.359 --> 00:31:07.039
I mean, you can still just say I hate get ready, get ready with me videos, or I hate horror films, or I hate that you can hate genres, but then you're limiting yourself because there could be someone who does really compelling get ready with me videos.
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:14.559
There could be a horror film that you might love if you actually let yourself watch it, but you quote, don't like horror, so you never watch it.
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:14.880
Yeah.
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:22.960
So it's both very genres are both very limiting, but also allow us to accept like so much more.
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:33.039
Yeah, and and it's a little bit on the topic of structure and rules are necessary for creativity, too.
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:33.920
Right, right.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:39.039
So, like what does it even mean for something to be genreless?
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:49.279
I mean, you know, there's so many categories now of everything that it's okay to be in one.
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:53.440
Like, like in other words, that's not the point, you know?
00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:00.079
Like the point is more what do you do, what voice do you have inside of that genre?
00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:00.640
Right?
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:14.799
So I think what I think what it is is like when you when you feel a run-of-the-mill X or a run-of-the-mill Y, like, oh yep, this is a an Adam Sandler style comedy that blah blah blah.
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:23.839
It and this is where timing matters, where like an Adam Sandler style comedy, when it was first coming out, was utterly awesome to so many different people.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:41.119
It was just like, whoa, like Happy Gilmore is this like bizarre new, like he's acting, he's acting like a child in like an over-the-top way that everyone kind of knows, but also everyone's acting everyone else is acting normal and it's kind of surreal, but like somehow it works.
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:50.559
But now, if you look back on it and start to make that kind of movie, it doesn't hold up anymore because it's like you're a victim to your own success.
00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:54.240
Once you pave the way, you're on an instant downfall.
00:32:54.480 --> 00:33:07.440
And now we don't have as much of like I mean, I wonder what it was like pitching one of the early Adam Sandler movies where they like, it's like a this movie, or was it just I don't know, it's just our own thing.
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:08.640
We can do whatever I want.
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:09.920
Because I never see that anymore.
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:17.920
I get sent so many scripts and descriptions, like breakdowns for things, whether it's like I'm gonna be auditioning for a part in it, or someone wants me to read the script.
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:20.720
And it's always like, it's like this and this.
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:23.359
Like they want to say what it's like, the tone.
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:32.240
And I understand saying that just because you want to give someone like I guess a lens for which to read the work, but also what if you didn't?
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.039
And you just let it be its own thing.
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:46.640
But but you know, we're so scared of um this is a whole other topic about the entertainment industry and like how we don't take as many risks anymore, but we're so scared of taking risks that we have to find something it's like.
00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:52.240
Like when I was making my movie, I had to be like, Well, it's like uh Francis Ha meets inside Lewin Davis.
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:57.039
Like I had to give, even though those are both like pretty individual movies, yeah.
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:04.960
That like, but even so even the quirky like individual stuff is its own because it's like we're naming everything.
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:08.960
The people who want to sell that want to know how to package that.
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:09.679
Exactly.
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:14.639
And and they in a way it's not it's not treating the public with respect.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:27.119
It's saying like it's saying like, look, people are dumb and they need to know uh how to package in their own brains, how can I generatize your movie in in two seconds?
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:32.079
And the thing is, this is so whatever, I don't mean to talk about my movie.
00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:38.639
I would bet you if you watched my movie and then immediately watched Francis Hawaii inside Lou and Davis, you'd be like, it's not like that.
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:39.840
Very different at all.
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:54.400
It's my movie's actually a lot more like this other movie I watched recently, like called uh I'd watched it before, but I rewatched it Happiness by Todd Swans, and I was like, oh, there's so many similar like shots and kind of timing things, even though the movie subject matter-wise is completely different.
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:57.280
But it's like Is that what's Philip Zimmer Hoffman?
00:34:57.440 --> 00:34:58.000
He's in that, yeah.
00:34:58.159 --> 00:34:59.920
Okay, yeah, I think I saw that a long time ago.
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:04.000
It's just oh, it's one of my favorite movies and Dylan Baker, who's in my movie too.
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:10.559
Oh yeah, but anyway, it's it's just like this this really frustrating um categorization.
00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:12.719
Do you would you okay?
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:13.599
Here's a question.
00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:22.719
As somebody who's trying to, I'm trying to like do my own, I feel like I'm trying to do my own thing right now, like talking and playing and stuff.
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:24.719
What category would I be?
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:26.079
Like what is the thing that I'm doing?
00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:26.639
Right.
00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:29.039
I mean, we were talking about this earlier because I don't know.
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:37.039
Yeah, like public speaker, but are you a but are you really just like a recital pianist who with a mix of public speaking and right?
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:44.400
And yeah, I mean you have to have some sort of name on it because people need to kind of know what they're going to.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:49.599
Like people aren't gonna just unless I like I think more mystery the better.
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:50.320
I just want to be a good idea.
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:53.440
But then mystery is the brand or the cat, you know what I mean?
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:55.679
Like this guy who doesn't tell you.
00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:56.960
You don't know what it's gonna be.
00:35:57.519 --> 00:35:58.719
You can't escape it, right?
00:35:58.800 --> 00:35:59.760
Right, right, right.
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:00.639
Yeah.
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:06.320
Anyway, I think it'll I I I think these things organically like unfold, right?
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:21.760
And it's best to maybe, maybe artists that succumb too early to their branding suffer because it is like if you're told by a marketing person or a PR person, like, okay, you we we need to brand this thing.
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:24.320
We need to figure out what you are so we can sell it.
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:40.239
If you do that too early, without it just uh without allowing your own audience to tell you who you are, your own audience, the people who you're speaking to, like and who who are being affected by it, to say, oh, you're doing this for me.
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:45.519
You're you're you're moving me in this way, or you're making me laugh, or you're you're showing me something.
00:36:45.760 --> 00:37:00.559
Um let them tell you what you're doing for them and then work from there rather than manufacturing that brand and then trying to sell it to an audience that you haven't yet built, you know?
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:14.239
I think the allure of overnight success that seems to be it's not still that possible, but with social media it almost could be because there's instant virality and people who sort of hit the jackpot right away.
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:23.840
Because of that allure and that seeming possibility, we are quick to brand ourselves because we're like, okay, I know I there is a path to make money with this, so let's get the brand going.
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:25.840
Let's let's like be as efficient as possible.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:30.400
There, we're not letting ourselves have that time to develop.
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:44.159
And this is the case with stand-up comedians a lot now, because you can post a clip of your stand-up and it might get a ton of views, even if you're only a year into comedy, which is like you should not be no one should be paying to see you a year in.
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:46.480
Like you're not worthy of the company.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:48.079
You haven't worked, you haven't worked enough.
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:53.440
Yeah, and so you haven't developed enough material and have the confidence to have a voice.
00:37:53.920 --> 00:38:15.039
Obviously, it's an over I don't mean some comedians might be good a year in and you should get paid, but you know what I'm saying, just in general, like like I I wasn't even thinking about making money as a comedian until maybe five years in at the earliest, but but that was a different time and um we're robbing ourselves of a lot of exploration.
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:37.280
All that to say, I think Claire Delune does transcend whatever like genre or popularity we put on it because I think even people who are like against you know commercial stuff for what which this piece has become, yeah, not to not because WC necessarily won wanted that.
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:42.400
And so does, you know, Beethoven Moonlight sonata is a great example.
00:38:42.639 --> 00:39:03.119
Speaking of moon, I mean skipping on the moon theme for a second, but the first moment of that is like listening to listening to that in its day, like being a truly shocking opening for a sonata where like most sonatas start with a with a theme.
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:05.039
Like, okay, let's like get to it.
00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:06.159
What are the music materials?
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:07.440
And then what's the second theme?
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:08.400
What's the development?
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:10.239
Hey, let's go on a little journey together.
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:12.639
And he's just like, I'm not gonna give you any of that.
00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:15.039
I'm barely giving you a melody, I'm not giving you anything.
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:26.159
I'm just giving you a sad, slow chord that's falling and and transforming into something that's really deep and dark, right?
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:31.840
And I'm not gonna let you off the hook, I'm gonna keep it there for the next five minutes.
00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:38.400
There's a melody that's that basically sounds like a a tolling bell signal signaling death.
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:40.159
You know, that's all I'm gonna give you.
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:46.639
That was utterly shocking then, and now it's like a cliche of sadness.
00:39:47.760 --> 00:40:05.519
I mean, or or at least it could be, uh, unless until you until this is something I'm really I think I believe in and I'm trying to do, until you go back to the music with fresh eyes by discovering some of the materials in it, so you can develop a fresh relationship with it.
00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:12.480
Rather than let's throw Beethoven for a second, all the context we have for him, even him, just out the window for a sec.
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:15.760
Let's just look at the music and see what it's doing.
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:22.960
And if we can like get inside the music, then we can get inside the original spirit of it.
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:23.440
Right.
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:39.280
And then you can shed the other context, like somebody crying in a movie and Beethoven Moonlight sonata being played and invite new context that that feels more personal to you.
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:40.239
Right.
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:55.760
It it's hard to do that though, because it it's both an introducing of new context and also a shedding or a um kind of a chipping off of other cultural context that we've subconsciously imbued in there.
00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:56.639
Right.
00:40:56.960 --> 00:41:03.920
And it's really impossible to like never be biased in any way.
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:12.000
You're always coming with your own history, your own traumas, your own pre-conceived notions about everything.
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:24.000
And I think it's a noble act to try to shed as many of those things as possible, especially when you're talking about other people, you know, because you don't want to discriminate, you don't want to judge people based on external things or whatever.
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:27.679
But with art, it's also an important thing to do.
00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:36.159
Um to try to, you know, expand beyond just you know this.
00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:46.239
Well, I'll I'll um I want to play you another famous piece because let's see if we can what's what do you think is more famous?
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:47.440
Well, Beethoven Seven.
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:48.159
What's more famous?
00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:50.800
Beethoven seven, what's more famous?
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:52.159
Scale one and ten right now.
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:54.159
These are the top seven most famous classical people.
00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:56.400
What if we were those type of YouTubers?
00:41:57.039 --> 00:41:58.880
Coming in at number nine, Beethoven.
00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:00.320
Make sure to like and subscribe.
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:02.239
Smash that like button.
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:05.519
Um, Beethoven 7, the Allegretto movement.
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:06.079
Okay.
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:07.199
Oh, yeah.
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:10.079
Um Brahms 118 number two.
00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:11.039
Okay.
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:15.280
Most people listen to, by the way, are like, what's Brahms?
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:16.159
Okay, okay.
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:21.280
Also, most people are saying what's Brahm, what's Beethoven's Beethoven's Allegretto, but you would know it if you heard it.
00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:22.880
Why don't we do that really quick?
00:42:23.280 --> 00:43:06.079
Okay, so Beethoven uh Beethoven Symphony number seven, the second movement, the Allegretto movement, begins with this straightforward but unresolved, kind of like this fifth in the fifth in the bottom and the top, um, a minor chord, and then this is uh a music that Leonard Bernstein said a kid could have written, right?
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:10.079
It's really simple harmonically, really simple rhythmically.
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:12.559
There's nothing that complicated going on here.
00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:14.239
That's the beauty of Beethoven.
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:21.840
A simple pattern that is laying the foundation for him to build on top of.
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:25.679
So it's kind of like a vertical, you gotta think vertically here.
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:34.480
He repeats it so that we really get it into our bones.
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:42.800
But how he layers on top of this music is really special.
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:58.719
So we get this inner voice, but the harmony isn't changing underneath, so it's basically we feel that fundamental pattern.
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:08.480
But we have a human quality above that objective framing.
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:14.159
And it's like a voice that's slowly growing inside of us.
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:33.679
It doesn't get boring because even though we know what's coming, it's more like an emerging of something we know has always been there.
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:56.800
So you kind of can just feel like this inside of you as each layer of voice is high.
00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:06.960
The tension is in that expectation.
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:19.039
It's like there is something inevitable inside us that's gaining passion and courage and growing in a way that Beethoven is just naturally tapping into with this music.
00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:20.079
That's how I feel it.
00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:26.079
You don't need shock to feel anxiety and tension and emotion, right?
00:46:26.239 --> 00:46:31.679
It's shock can be shocking and then uh emotional as a reaction.
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:35.119
But like you're saying, this is we almost feel what's coming.
00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:37.039
Although I would argue against that a little bit.
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:42.079
I mean, the r the repetition of it is almost unexpected.
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:46.800
Like it's it's a little it's like wow, dare I say radical.
00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:50.320
Um, and then what's happening on top is changing.
00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:52.320
Yeah, so there the texture is changing.
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:56.559
There is surprise and a bit of shock, I think, especially when it really climaxes.
00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:01.920
But I think your idea of when we do feel like we know what's coming next.
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:06.400
I mean, it's like when you're watching a movie and you're like, ah, I know what's gonna happen.
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:08.239
Kind of the dramatic irony.
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:09.840
Yeah, I know where this is going.
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:10.159
Yeah.
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:10.880
Shoot.
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:14.159
Yeah, there's an intentional play on that tension.
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:14.800
Yeah.
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:24.000
Um and and that again, that's like why why time and memory is so vital here.
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:34.639
Because you're working with a human being who needs to assemble these repetitive patterns and understand how they're developing and where they came from.
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:43.519
That climax is only as effective as it is because in some way we understand where we came from a minute ago.
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:44.159
Right.
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:47.360
Like on a subconscious level.
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:56.559
Well, it's it's more emotionally meaningful where you when you know where someone came from or when you can sense where they came where it came from.
00:47:56.639 --> 00:47:56.960
Yeah.
00:47:57.199 --> 00:47:59.199
Because you're getting that context.
00:47:59.360 --> 00:47:59.599
Yeah.
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:07.679
And it doesn't mean you need a whole backstory, but you can imply the backstory with the current material.
00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:10.079
That goes for all forms of art, I think.
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:12.400
It goes for music, goes for film.
00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:13.760
All right, covered it.
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:14.880
All forms of art.
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:15.679
Not all form.
00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:17.199
I mean, I don't know about painting.
00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:19.360
I are you into visual art?
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:22.400
I'm so I'm it's so uh not my thing.
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:24.559
Uh not so not so much.
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:33.360
I I do think um I need like when I go to a museum or something, I really want to be educated by like a guide, you know.
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:36.400
It's probably how most people feel about classical music.
00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:39.920
And that's what you know, because you're giving that guidance.
00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:40.559
Yeah.
00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:45.440
I mean, I could I definitely want a guide in whatever art form I'm viewing.
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:46.000
Yeah.
00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:52.559
Um, why would you not want to be near an expert who can point things out to you that you didn't see?
00:48:52.719 --> 00:49:12.480
There is that value of like, well, let me just let it wash over me and let me develop my own personal you would have never thought of it this way if you knew all the context and what a beautiful new but when you have background and context, then you can build on that and disagree with things and come up with your own.
00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:15.679
Yeah, it's not like your creativity is killed by knowledge.
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:28.800
I that is one thing that when I was in school, I was at uh when I when uh we were at Juilliard together, I went to the theory teacher uh and I said something The one theory teacher at Juilliard.
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:37.280
No, yeah, no, there were many, but uh the I studied with a couple, but this guy, I was almost named him, but I said, Yeah, we don't need to name him.
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:39.760
So um and I said something very naive.
00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:51.599
I came to his office hours and I was like, Yeah, but I'm just worried that you know, descri like isn't it a if you start describing things theoretically, like it kills the magic, you know?
00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:53.519
Like, am I gonna lose?
00:49:53.920 --> 00:50:10.639
I was concerned even then with losing a kind of um innocence, innocent and pure connection that I felt I had with the music where it was like I'm moved by this, I don't wanna know why.
00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:19.039
Because everyone, because anytime somebody says the word augmented six chord, I I I go, uh okay, like great.
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:21.119
Is that what's so beautiful about this part?
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:21.840
Wow.
00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:23.440
Like that means nothing to me.
00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:24.639
Oh, it's a Neapolitan.
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:29.840
Oh, it's a Neapolitan, or what the pedal point or the end of the development.
00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:36.000
Now, no, now I talk that way, actually, but it's a means to the end of expression.
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:38.719
We come we become what we are most afraid.
00:50:39.199 --> 00:50:40.559
That which we are most afraid of.
00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:43.360
I don't know, it sounds like a tragedy that probably exists.
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:44.800
Definitely.
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:47.280
Um both sitting exactly the same way.
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:48.000
Whoa.
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:51.280
Anyway, it's like form um patterns.
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:57.199
Uh and he was really pissed that I said that.
00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:57.920
Pissed.
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:08.800
He was f he was clearly upset that I was like because for him it was probably me trying to dismiss his life's work, his entire life's work, right?
00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:09.039
Right.
00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:17.920
Like his he all he does is study form and structure and theory and like try to try to explain and analyze like Beethoven's music.
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:24.000
And I was coming in there like, yeah, but it's not uh that's not what music's all about.
00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:26.960
Well, okay, well, what was the actual purpose of your visit?
00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:30.960
Were you like just coming in to tell him your thoughts about his class?
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:32.239
It is kind of douchey.
00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:32.719
Hang on.
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:33.280
No, no, no.
00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:34.880
It wasn't a comment session.
00:51:34.960 --> 00:51:36.960
I wasn't trying to just criticize him.
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:39.840
I was expressing a fear, like legitimately.
00:51:39.920 --> 00:52:08.480
I was like, please sell me on theory because like I have this fear that because I have it's not coming from nothing, it's coming from my experience sitting there and somebody telling me these theory words and me losing the magic in this amazing piece and being stuck in the jargon of all the theoretical concepts in the analysis when I know that Beethoven didn't sit there thinking about chord structures, he just composed from his heart.
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:09.360
You know what I mean?
00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:21.360
So, like theory and analysis is a post-art kind of uh situation where you after the fact you look back and you analyze and you say, Wow, look how these structures work.
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:34.960
A sunflower doesn't think about its uh uh Fibonacci sequence spirals that it has, you know, like it's just amazing, it's just an expression of nature.
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:39.360
But okay, this makes me think of because there's something to what you're saying.
00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:39.920
Ooh.
00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:50.000
But I think uh what makes uh music theory in particular so fascinating is that usually we learn music before we learn the theory.
00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:53.039
It's almost like how we learn to speak before we can read.
00:52:53.199 --> 00:52:55.199
We learn to speak before we learn to read.
00:52:55.840 --> 00:53:00.639
So uh does reading ruin speaking?
00:53:01.119 --> 00:53:01.440
No.
00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:04.159
Not I would say generally no.
00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:04.800
No.
00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:18.719
So, and you know, language is arguably is the first technology humans created, and language has arguably, you know, robbed us of of a more rich, you know, uh physical life, but that's a different topic.
00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:23.760
Um, I had a math teacher in high school, and I will name him because this I think this is really cool.
00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:37.840
His name is Paul Lockhart, and I took a class of his called What is Math, and he had this whole argument that he wishes math were taught more like how music was taught, where you play with it first and then you learn all the terms.
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:41.679
Because math from day one, you're learning what one plus one equals two.
00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:50.239
You're learning the functions, you're learning the theory rather than just playing with shapes and counting things and immediately.
00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:50.800
Yeah, yeah.
00:53:50.880 --> 00:54:03.599
So he had this whole essay, I think it was called The Mathematician's Apology, sort of arguing for math to be taught more the way music is generally taught, where you learn learn it in a more visceral way, and then you learn the theory.
00:54:04.079 --> 00:54:13.199
But I'm wondering how did your theory teacher express offense and then did he sell you on it, or did he just like get out of my office?
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:18.239
Uh his argument convinced me, but it wasn't compelling.
00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:28.639
He was basically like it's it only makes the music more um expressive to you and more powerful to know more.
00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:36.960
Basically, it's kind of like knowledge is power, like sure, you know, kind of like it will only amplify your appreciation for it.
00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:40.480
And I just kind of took his word for it, and I actually believe that it's true.
00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:41.840
That's how you feel now in general.
00:54:42.079 --> 00:54:43.840
It is absolutely how I feel now.
00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:58.480
Um I think you need I think you need someone who can marry the two, like who can also to not put so much weight when you're in a class learning, you gotta learn the stuff.
00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:00.159
That's the that's the reason you're there.
00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:06.719
So you're being tested on it, you have to memorize it, and and it feels like it has this enormous weight to know this.
00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:22.880
But the truth is, if someone and if someone said, Look, you don't absolutely in your musical career, it's rare that you're gonna have to be able to tell someone this is an augmented a French augmented six chord as opposed to a German one, right?
00:55:23.199 --> 00:55:40.719
But might this information only make you more curious about how these um forms in music interact with each other and how a composer might be using this language to create a beautiful essay.
00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:41.440
Right.
00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:44.159
Did you ever have Sam Zeman at Juilliard?
00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:54.159
Because he he was a theory teacher who did a really good job of explaining the theory, but but always alongside like the emotion and the how ama listen to how amazing this piece is.
00:55:54.400 --> 00:55:55.920
Now listen to how amazing this core.
00:55:56.159 --> 00:56:00.639
You're gonna I tell you, you're gonna write home to your parents tonight and say, I heard the most beautiful piece of music.
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:02.079
And like horrible.
00:56:02.559 --> 00:56:09.599
I think you would have loved his class because it was really marrying the two, just like the theory only made it better.
00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:10.000
Yeah.
00:56:10.719 --> 00:56:10.960
Yeah.
00:56:11.119 --> 00:56:23.599
Um I think it's I think it's so important to uh remember to get out of the conceptual like uh the cause we cause we do this all the time in our lives.
00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:33.519
I mean, uh we do this with our identities too, not to get too abstract, but like Isabel is a certain way to you.
00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:35.599
She sucks.
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:37.039
According to you.
00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:41.760
But that's not uh reality.
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:48.559
Like reality is is so much more abstract and impossible to nail down and not and not conceptual to identities.
00:56:48.800 --> 00:57:00.480
Like we define things in language that we've created through language, which is a limiting um set of communication.
00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:11.280
But it's necessary for us to understand each other on some level, on some societal level, on some level that uh promotes interaction and culture and all this stuff.
00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:19.840
But let's not forget that it's something we make up in order for things to seem easier to our brains.
00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:20.239
Right.
00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:32.639
Like a tree, we look outside and we say, that's a tree, but like a tree is this beautiful dialogue between the sun feeding into the earth.
00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:34.400
Yeah.
00:57:34.639 --> 00:57:34.880
Exactly.
00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:38.239
And there's water tree, end and begin, you know, exactly.
00:57:38.639 --> 00:57:38.960
Exactly.
00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:43.840
It's not something that has definite uh endings and beginnings, and neither do we.
00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:44.320
Right.
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:55.760
And but like we we don't have to think that like that all the time, but it's important to like remember to take a step back and to think all of this is useful, but for what end?
00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:57.280
What is the end?
00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:11.199
For me, it's it's connection, you know, it's it's a feeling of oneness and connection with uh spirit or a community or others, it's a feeling of sharing, it's a thing that lights you up more than anything, whatever that thing is.
00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:11.840
Yeah.
00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:18.880
Um so and we're so focused on the individual now, you know, especially.
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:26.159
I mean, as as society progresses, it's more and more about the individual or your your little family, your insular family.
00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:31.119
We I'm the most happy when I'm around other people and not thinking about myself.
00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:31.760
Me too.
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:37.280
Because that's how I think we're still hardwired to to be naturally.
00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:40.960
But um just checking out like and subscribe.
00:58:41.679 --> 00:58:42.559
It has been an hour.
00:58:43.039 --> 00:58:43.280
Okay.
00:58:43.519 --> 00:58:46.000
I think this like it's I think we're done.
00:58:46.159 --> 00:58:47.920
I think we're getting we're starting to get out of here.
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:52.159
Did I play Claire Delune earlier or was that a different podcast?
00:58:52.480 --> 00:58:53.280
Is it the same one?
00:58:53.840 --> 00:58:54.239
Same one.
00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:55.360
Holy mother of God.
00:58:55.519 --> 00:58:56.400
Okay, let's stop.
00:58:56.480 --> 00:58:57.360
Let's get some food.
00:58:57.519 --> 00:58:58.079
Okay, all right.
00:58:58.159 --> 00:58:58.639
Thanks, guys.
00:58:58.719 --> 00:59:00.000
Thank you so much for bearing with us.
00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:02.480
Thank you for listening, and we'll catch you then.
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:05.840
Get outside your own head, you know, connect with some people.
00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:07.280
Or not.
00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:07.760
I don't know.
00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:09.199
Get off your phone.
00:59:09.519 --> 00:59:11.039
All right, talk to you soon.
00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:11.679
Bye.
