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Hello and welcome back to the Creating Value in Schools podcast, where we talk about how we can work more sustainably in schools.
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And today we're focusing I'd say on personal sustainability.
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What keeps us going in tough times or, or what can help us navigate and come to terms with challenges we may encounter.
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And I'm delighted to have Viv Grant of Integrity Coaching with me.
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Welcome Viv.
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Thank you.
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And yeah, Viv has many years of experience as both a coach and a head teacher and has a real passion for supporting leaders born out of her own experience.
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And we'll come back to some of that.
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But where I wanted to start today is your book, Viv, Learning to Walk in the Dark.
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And when I first came across you talking about the book, the thing that really intrigued me was the art and how you discovered creativity as a way of sustaining you through a tough time.
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So do you wanna start by telling us a bit about that? Yes, Liz.
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And whenever I'm asked that question, I suppose I always take a really deep breath 'cause it takes me back to a time in my life that I hadn't expected; a time in my life that, um, I call it winter now.
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And I think I, in the book I talk about winter will take you by surprise.
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And so essentially how I came to discover creativity and art was the result of a cancer diagnosis.
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Um, it was August, 2023.
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And the irony of it, I say the irony of it as you introduced me by saying how I have this deep interest in wellbeing and sustaining school leaders.
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I had just started my PhD and literally I had finished a literature review around wholeness in school leadership.
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And what is it that school leaders need to attend to around this theme of wholeness.
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And then the literature talks about, for many leaders that comes a point in time where they have an existential experience where everything they knew about themselves is actually taken away.
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It's a crisis of some sort.
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And it talks about how they rebuild themselves back together through the trauma.
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And that's how they were, it was describing wholeness.
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I literally was about to put pen to paper.
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Yes.
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And I get a phone call saying, you've got to come in for these emergency CT and MRI scans.
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And it was only in retrospect when I look back, 'cause obviously, you know, not obviously, but those scans then led to me being told that I had a rare form of cancer.
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But it is only when I had time and space afterwards that, and when I was recollecting, it was like, oh my goodness, Viv, it was like life was saying to you, okay, academically, Viv, yes, you can have this knowledge and you can write about it, but now you're gonna have a real embodied experience of what wholeness means.
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And so it was, it was one of, yeah, I think I can truly say hand on heart, it was one of the most surreal, scary experiences that I've, I've ever had.
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And going back to your question around art and creativity, in one of my post-op meetings, I'm still being looked after by the Royal Marsden.
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I'm in my monitoring phase now, but this is before the operation.
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I was in the waiting room and I just saw on, on the wall the list of services that they provided and one of them was art therapy.
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I thought, oh, that'd be really good.
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You know, maybe after the operation and so forth, I'll sign up for that.
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But when I inquired, they said they hadn't had an art therapist for 18 months.
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So I was like, what am I gonna do that? Why have that up? They get people's hopes up and then we can't do it.
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And so then I came home and in passing I mentioned it to my daughter and her best friend, Eisha.
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Eisha is an art student.
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And jokingly, really, Eisha said to me, oh Viv, I'll be your art therapist.
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And I didn't really think anything of it.
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I really didn't.
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And then about a week after surgery when I could barely walk, I was still feeling really sad and sorry for myself 'cause I had to have a hysterectomy.
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Um, Eisha came round and her and my daughter, they decorated our front room with fairy lights and plants and soft music.
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And they said, Viv, come in here.
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And Eisha, she'd bought, um, little, um, pots of acrylic paint and little acrylic canvases.
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And she said to me, Viv, just paint.
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And I'm just like, what? What do I paint? I can't paint.
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I never painted before.
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Why you telling me to just paint, Usha? I said, I dunno what to paint.
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And she just said, Viv, don't overthink it.
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And I just started to paint and you know, I still do feel a bit tearful when I think about it because it was such, um, I suppose just a very deep experience.
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Mm-hmm.
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And I started to paint and these images started to pour out of me.
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The first one was just of a tree, just naked in winter.
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And I didn't really think much of it, to be honest, but, you know, I've done it.
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But then what happened was I went to bed.
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I woke up the next morning, I've gotta paint, I've gotta paint, I've gotta paint, and another image came to mind and I painted.
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And then I'd go to sleep again and another image.
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And every morning, literally for about three weeks, I'm waking up and I've gotta paint, I've gotta paint, I've gotta paint.
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And, it was a really sort of surreal experience because my family, they were deeply worried.
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'cause when I say it was a three week period, because we were waiting to go back to the hospital to find out whether the cancer had spread.
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And so my husband, he's a bit of a worrier, he was really worried that, you know, oh my god, whatever.
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And, but he said, you know, Viv, in those three weeks, something magical happened.
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He said, because, and this is the room where I would paint in, actually, funny enough, this is a room used to be my daughter's bedroom, but we decorated, so it's the smallest room in the house.
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And this is where I would come and paint.
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And he said, a peace descended over the house.
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You would just retreat into that room.
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You'd maybe show up for lunch or something.
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You'd go back in.
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And then at the end of the day you, you'd come out and you'd say, look, look what I've painted.
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And everyone else would be surprised.
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I would be surprised.
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And sometimes I'd just sit and I'd look at them because I didn't really have any understanding or words.
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All I know, all I knew was that when I painted time just changed and it morphed.
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And I had no sense of, you know, how time was passing.
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I was given like a whole raft of painkillers when I came out of hospital.
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I only took one in that whole time.
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And I'm sure it was the impact of the painting and it taking me to a very different place in myself.
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So that's how it all came about, Liz.
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Yeah.
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Gosh, thank you for sharing Viv.
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That's quite, what an experience.
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Yeah.
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And I, And I guess, yeah.
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Something that's coming through to me in reading the book.
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Yeah.
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Which I've dipped into.
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And now I've sort of gone back to the beginning on, is that, is a kind of invitation to something deeper, a soul experience, a connection? And I found that, yeah.
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That to me is interesting, I suppose.
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Yeah.
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We live so much in our heads and I think in the book you mentioned, you know, there's the rational self.
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What do I need to know about this and what do I need to do here? But actually it feels to me like it was in allowing almost something more magical or soulful that enabled you to come to terms with this experience.
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Yeah, most definitely.
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As I was listening to you there, um, Liz, what I was reminded of, you know, when you talk about going to a deeper, so more soulful place, when, um, when we went to the hospital and we were waiting hours and hours and hours before I was wheeled into the operation operating room.
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'cause they told us I was gonna be the first one to be operated on.
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So we got there really, really early.
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And then when I got there, they said, oh, actually, because of the type of cancer that you've got and the level of risk, you are gonna be the last one to be operated on.
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And then you're gonna be in ICU.
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And so luckily I had bought some reading material with me, and one of the books I bought was, um, by John O'Donohue.
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He's, he's no longer alive, Irish poet.
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Um, and it was his book of blessings.
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And there was one poem in particular that I kept being drawn to, and it's called A Blessing for a Friend on the Arrival of Illness.
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And there was one line that I couldn't shake, and it just kept saying something along the lines, may you find within yourself a gracious hospitality to what is difficult, painful, and unknown.
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And again, I didn't know at the time, but those words, they just kept coming back to me.
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And actually I didn't, in my recovery, I came home and I actually incorporated them into a painting.
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And it's almost, well, obviously, you know, I think with his work and the way in which he, he wrote, he had this sense of how, of how we are drawn into a deeper relationship with soul, with the wiser part of ourselves.
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And I look back now, and I think that's what he was talking about, how to find a courageous hospitality with what's difficult, painful, and un unknown.
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It's not through here.
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We don't do that through here.
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It's through our heart, it's through our soul, and it's through, often it is through crisis.
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Again, there's another, um, storyteller, Michael Mead, and he talks about, um, the gold is found beside the wound.
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And yeah, so that's, so, you know, when you are reflecting back to me, that's where my mind just went to the, you know, I do believe, and you know, it's been my own life experience, the work that I do with school leaders, that we all have a deep inner wisdom.
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We all do, but because of the busyness of life, we don't always necessarily find ways to access it.
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I think so.
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That's right.
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And also I think, particularly maybe in like western culture, our society, we always want to, we don't want to dwell on the difficult stuff, do we? You know, we want to move on.
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Let's think about the positive, let's put it away.
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And so, yeah, that line, that line in the poem, that idea of a courageous hospitality towards what is difficult and painful is quite unfamiliar actually, isn't it? To, to a lot of us.
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We are, we are not used to that way of thinking.
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Mm-hmm.
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I, I think there's, what I would say, it's almost like an em emotional immaturity.
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It stunts our growth.
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And again, I, because you know, my background is in headship and the work that I do is with school leaders, it's very much for me, this thing, we ask for our leaders to be wise.
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We ask for them to be able to have the capacity to make wise decisions.
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But the fiction that goes alongside that is that you get there by brushing things aside, by being strong and resilient and pretending everything is is okay.
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But again, another thing that's happened, you know, through the cancer and coming out on the other side, I've really turned to nature and learning and just really leaning into what nature has to say to us.
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And I do feel that is, again, through the paintings, we, because it was just the trees, I mean, a lot of my paintings were rooted in nature and trees.
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And this sense that, you know, we, we look at oaks and we admire them, don't we? We admire these great big ancient oaks that stand in our parks, in our woodland.
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But again, those oaks, they don't happen, they don't, that strength, that majesty that we see doesn't happen overnight.
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They face storms the same that we do, but their roots grow deeper and deeper with each storm.
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The bark, it gets stronger and stronger with each storm.
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We are not separate from nature.
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And if we can see ourselves in relation to what nature has to say to us about what it means to be alive even, and that you know that difficulties and challenges are a part of the experience of being alive, then perhaps we'll have a different way of engaging with life with the challenges of leadership.
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Absolutely.
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And something I did also want to mention is, yeah, the cancer that you had is one that is particularly prevalent among women of colour.
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So I imagine, did this draw your attention further to inequalities around health and race? And I feel it's something, isn't it perhaps recent years COVID experiences and things have drawn our attention to.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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Yes, most definitely.
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And again, you know, it was all part of the shock of the experience.
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One, it was a shock just to be, be told you've got cancer.
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Then two, a shock, and it is my husband and my, and myself actually through our own research, is to discover that it was one that's common in women of colour.
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But then I think, and three, you know, this goes to the inequalities and so forth, those who were treating me didn't want to know it.
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They, they really, um, didn't, can I say the phrase, didn't care.
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Oh.
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And, and that was really, it was very difficult for myself, particularly because, you know, as long as well as the work that I do around leadership, I do a lot of work around race.
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And so in my work, I'd often spoken about how race impacts people of colour.
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And there, and I'd, and I'd spoken about it, you know, in ways in which I often related to my own school experiences and the racism that I experienced at school.
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And now I was having another sort of experience of how race impacts the lives of people of colour.
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I, I, I can't tell you again, Liz, you know, just the impact that, that had.
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There's a book by an author, I, I'm gonna forget her name now.
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I think it's Joyce DeGruy, I think it's called, um, slave, oh, I can't remember now, but something, slave syndrome, something like that.
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But it's about the post-traumatic slave syndrome.
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That's what it is.
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Mm-hmm.
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And then, you know, she talks in it about intergenerational trauma and the markers that are left upon our bodies.
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And again, I'm, I'm, it's, if I'm honest, it's really something that I'm still working through.
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Quite obviously at the time, you know, I was seeing a therapist and tentatively I would say to, you know, I'm gonna read this book, or there's these other books that are come into my awareness.
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But I don't know how strong I feel right now.
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And I think I'm still on that path.
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There are still some books that I know would give me a greater under, maybe mental understanding, rational understanding.
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But it's a lot.
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It's a lot.
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Yeah, and I very much, as much as, you know, I know I was under one of the best hospitals in terms of being treated.
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There was still very much a sense that you're kind of like a number really, and this is how they treat cancer.
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So you have to go by the book in terms of what they say and it doesn't matter.
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Well, I didn't feel it mattered really, whether my, you know, my ethnicity or so forth, so yeah.
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Like something else.
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Oh, I dunno.
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Yeah.
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Part of that tree, that growth, isn't it? I dunno.
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Yeah.
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As time goes on.
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It's something to read, think on more.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I think where I am quite right now in my own journey is that sense of, I, yeah, it's, I, yes, I know that my art, my creativity, it will help me through.
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There's that, that inner knowing, there's that sense of, I'm so funny.
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I'm looking at a painting.
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I might as well just get it.
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I'll explain it more now, but one of the things I was gonna say, as well as trees, fire was very present in my, in, in my paintings then, and in my paintings posts then, so this is one that I wasn't really, again, I was painting it and actually I'm looking in the back and I've called it Tree of Life, but when, again, when I, so again, when I'm painting very often, I dunno what I'm gonna be painting.
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It just sort of comes out and then I've, you know, looked at the symbolism around fire and that is all to do with purification.
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It's all to do with that sense of creating, you know, levelling the ground for new life to come forth.
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And so I'm kind of like accepting that life has put me on this path now where I suppose it's inviting me, I would say, to different ways of knowing and different ways of dealing with the complexities of life.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Fire, rebirth.
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It, it's a technique, isn't it? Like I think in Australia.
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Yes, exactly.
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Aboriginal culture.
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Yes.
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Fire is actually, is a way of managing the land, isn't it? Allowing other things to come forth.
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For details about Viv's book and other authors mentioned, check out the links in the show notes.
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Coming up, we are going to hear from Viv about how her experiences have influenced her work with school leaders, what life might be like if Osted inspectors drew on their inner wisdom, and why we all need to take off the superhero t-shirt and get connected.
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Back to the show.
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And let's, so we've mentioned courage, creativity, and in the book there are some other Cs as well, aren't there? So tell us more about the five Cs.
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Okay, so the five Cs, they are curiosity, compassion, courage, connection.
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Maybe, I can't remember the fifth one, you'll have to remind me.
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I'm going to...
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commitments.
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Commitment, curiosity, commitment, courage, compassion, connection.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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And they came about, again, it wasn't rational.
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Again, it was when, because I, again, I didn't even, I didn't intend to put a book out.
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Those paintings were meant to be private and they were meant to be just for me alone.
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And it was only when I returned back to work that, um, I did a small workshop with a few head teachers and I thought, I'm gonna be brave.
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I'm gonna do some creativity with them, and I'm gonna introduce some of the paintings.
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And they were like, Viv, you know what you have to do, don't you? And I'm like, no.
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Like, Viv, you know what you have to do.
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Don't, you're like, no.
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But then I just thought, if you've gotta walk your talk, you know, and if other people are saying that these paintings and the way in which I engage with them and talk about them can be of help, then actually Viv, you know, you owe it to them and you owe it to what you are about to put them out.
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And so when I started to put the book together, I started to think about what was my process.
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How did I get through that time? And then I realised there were certain qualities that I actually, were nurtured within me over that time.
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So curiosity, for example.
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I think to begin with, if I'm really honest I was in so much shock.
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I was also quite critical.
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And I, what have I done to my body? Is this my fault? Oh my goodness, what have I done? And then over time I realised that that changed to curiosity.
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I was no longer being critical, but I needed to be curious.
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And again, going back to the John O'Donohue quote, you know, so what is it? Why have you come into my life? What is it that you want to show me? So I had to develop a new way of being, a new relationship.
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And then the one, the C, that's around connection.
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I realised when I came out the other side of it all, that I had a deeper connection to what I feel is my life pur life's purpose, which is around being in the education sphere, really enabling school leaders to be the best versions of themselves.
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But I felt I had a, I deepened my understanding around wellbeing.
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As I said at the very beginning, this whole thing around wholeness and what it means and how to cultivate wisdom: that had grown.
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I felt a deeper connection to the natural world, to the world around me, and recognising that I was just as much a part of it and that there was so much, and for me in particular, it has been around trees.
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There was just so much that I could learn from nature and being in deep connection and relationship with nature.
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So really, yeah, those five Cs, they just came about by me just pausing and reflecting.
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Okay.
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So what were the qualities Viv that enabled you to travel through, you know, this dark night of the soul really? Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Coming back to, I think it's, oh, again, I would say I feel like in Western society often we sort of talk about man versus nature, and I think that's one of those problematic things, isn't it, it doesn't help us really take care of the environment or climate, because of course we're part of nature.
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We're natural too, aren't we? We are part of that.
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Yeah.
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So, yeah, I think it's really interesting that this, that was, um, yeah.
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A path you've been down.
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Yeah.
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And it kind of takes me to, yeah.
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One of the things I'm really interested about your experience with the head teachers.
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'cause again, I feel like school's a place of, I know, action, busyness, um, intellect.
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Yeah.
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And so I'm wondering how, yeah, those, those head teachers who maybe you've talked to about, actually let's talk about art or creativity or expressing something different.
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So how has that gone down? Or is it a case of, because I imagine it could be a case of, look, I'm a busy, overwhelmed head teacher.
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I've got time to pick up a paintbrush.
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Yeah.
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It's been a really lovely experience, if I'm honest.
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I think what I have found over the years is that in terms of education, there are no cookie type.
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You know, we have the sort of stereotype of a head teacher, but I know from the ones who are called to our work, they're already on this path, whether we call it soul awakening or wanting to lead differently.
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So one of the things that we did, or that I did out coming out on the other side, we created a programme called Learning to Walk in the Dark, specifically for head teachers, where I take the lessons that I have learned, you know, and it's just a short, runs over, I think six months I think.
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Yeah.
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Modules that explore aspects of learning to walk in the dark.
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And I'll never forget, so we did the pilot last year, and I'll never forget one head teacher, and I think it was just about in the first or second session, she said, I used to write poetry.
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I've forgotten I used to do that.
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I'm gonna go back to doing that.
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And so what I have found is, as I said at the beginning, we all have the capacity to tap into another way of knowing this deep inner wisdom.
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And it's about create, what I have found, it's about creating spaces.
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And I always say to heads, just take off that superhero cloak.
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It's not needed here.
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Just come as you are and it takes, it can take your head sometimes a bit of a while.
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That does Viv really mean it? It's like, oh she does.
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And then you just see this beautiful unfolding and it's so lovely.
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Again, I can think of another head last year and I think it was towards the end, said Viv? And I think I did a session with them on intuition and just trusting, that quiet inner voice.
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'cause again, for head teachers, you know, you've got so many other voices saying do this.
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And he said, you know, it is just so interesting because before I wouldn't have felt brave or strong enough to talk with my SLT about trusting their own inner wisdom.
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And when we come together as a team, how important that is when we're doing our decision making.
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But now I feel brave enough to do that again.
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I can think of another head who before and actually he was brilliant actually.
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'cause he probably was not at what I would say the typical IC head teacher.
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He had been through the wars and what education had taught him was, you are the superhead, you don't ever show anyone vulnerability.
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And I'll take my hat off to him.
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But something inside must have been saying to him anyway, this is the space that you need.
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'cause it really was so enlightening for him.
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It's like.
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I can be different.
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I can hold the role in a different way.
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And it was beautiful.
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It was so beautiful.
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What I would say, to see him come into a different relationship with himself, that allowed him to engage with his emotions, that allowed him to recognise that he also had a deep inner wisdom as well.
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And that if he let go of, you know, the sort of stereotype notions of how to hold headship, he could hold it in a way that was more generative and supportive of himself.
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So, yeah.
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So what I find is the heads who are on this journey, they find us.
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They find us.
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Which is good, isn't it? 'cause part of me feels as I know, you've, you've been doing this work for a long time Yeah.
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And sharing this message of, you know, the heads need to take, gotta take that superhero t-shirt off, in the end, it's not going to serve you.
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Yeah.
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I was wonder if you ever feel like, do you feel, is this message ever gonna get through? Are things changing? I think the older I get, I hope, I hope I get a bit wiser and I'm sort of, you know, I kind of accepting in some respects of where we are in education and an understanding that really that those who make the policy guidelines and so forth, they haven't necessarily done their inner work.
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And so therefore it will mean that we will have a very reduced, I should say, or diminished sense of what wellbeing is.
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And I just think, well, Viv, you know what you believe, you know what integrity believes.
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So if you, you, if you can just be one light and keep that light shining as brightly as you can, then that's the best that you can do.
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So for me it's like, so yeah, I accept that.
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But it means, so when you said, you know, frustrated, I think maybe in my younger days I might have got a bit frustrated, but now I don't.
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Now I'm just kind of like, okay, this is the landscape, but I know what is mine to do, what is integrity's work to do in that landscape? And I know that the heads who would benefit from our message, who benefit from our services, they will find us.
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They will find us.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I guess it's, yes.
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What is the change that I can be? Exactly.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Mm-hmm.
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Although this is putting like, I know nice ideas in my head of what would it be if Ofsted, if Ofsted inspectors were drawing more on their inner wisdom and intuition.
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We could all dream couldn't we? That would be, you imagine, can you imagine school leaders saying, yeah Ofsted, come in, come in, it be so wonderful.
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Oh well, yes.
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Thank you.
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And I was, yeah.
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I was interested too for, maybe leaders out there who are getting in touch with things and are want, want to share or write things as well themselves.
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Tell us about the experience.
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'cause you touched on a bit of the experience of putting this book together.
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How was it? And I noticed, you've, you haven't gone down a, like, traditional publishing route.
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Mm-hmm.
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So, yeah.
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Anything you'd like to share with us about that? I think you just really need, for me it was a case of, you know, why it came out through Integrity, I suppose.
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I just wanted ownership of it, to be honest.
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Yeah.
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And I know, knew how I wanted to use it.
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And also, in particular, the paintings, there was something particular around the paintings and the way, you know, we worked with a professional, um, type setter as it were, and someone who works with images and so forth.
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So we found a good person to work with.
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And I suppose I just wanted greater artistic control, as it were.
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But I think the whole process.
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Really, it's, it is a very personal process.
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And this, as I said, this book, I never, ever planned, like, you know, my first book, Staying A Head, that was planned and I knew why I was writing that and so forth.
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This one, it wasn't planned, but I suppose the only advice I would give is really just be clear about your reasons as to why you want to write, the reasons as to why you want to put it out in the world.
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And you can make that decision as to whether you go through a traditional route or whether you know, you publish it yourself.
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I think there are so many avenues that are open to people out now who want to get their messaging out into the world, and I think individuals can decide on which route would best suit them and the purposes as to why they're deciding to put something out.
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Yeah.
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No, thank you.
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Yeah, and I definitely, in looking at the book, I really appreciate, I can see it's really carefully laid out and how things are positioned and the quotes and mm-hmm.
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00:29:57,1.0437437 --> 00:29:58,561.0437437
And the space too.
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00:29:58,591.0437437 --> 00:30:02,881.0437437
The space, isn't it? This is definitely a book for people to interact with.
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00:30:02,911.0437437 --> 00:30:03,901.0437437
Exactly.
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00:30:03,901.0437437 --> 00:30:04,801.0437437
Exactly.
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Yeah.
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00:30:05,161.0437437 --> 00:30:05,611.0437437
Yeah.
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00:30:06,91.0437437 --> 00:30:08,701.0437437
It's something to read with a pen or pencil in your hand.
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00:30:10,241.6433891 --> 00:30:10,691.6433891
Okay.
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00:30:10,691.6433891 --> 00:30:25,921.6433891
But, so, because, yeah, clearly there's lots of things that you've read and inspired, and again, I think one of the lovely things about the book is it's an invitation because John O'Donohue, that wasn't a name I knew, but there's people there to, to then go and explore further.
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00:30:26,191.6433891 --> 00:30:26,431.6433891
But yeah.
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00:30:26,551.6433891 --> 00:30:37,236.6433891
Tell us, what have you been reading or listening to recently that inspired you? So, a lovely book that I have just finished reading is The Island of Missing Trees.
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And this was recommended to me, actually.
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I'd just finished, I was speaking at a conference and a delegate came up to me afterwards.
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00:30:45,959.1897817 --> 00:30:51,434.1897817
There's a book, there's a book you've gotta read, because when I was talking, I was talking about trees and everything.
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She goes, you've gotta read this book, Viv, you've gotta read this book.
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And this was the book that she recommended to me.
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00:30:56,594.1897817 --> 00:30:59,864.1897817
And she was so right for a variety of reasons.
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00:30:59,864.1897817 --> 00:31:00,734.1897817
She was so right.
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Really in terms of recommending it to me.
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00:31:03,614.1897817 --> 00:31:11,529.1897817
But I think, you know, one of, I think a lot of it is still sort of resting with me, really, because we are, we're living in a time of conflict now, aren't we? Absolutely.
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You know, and this is based upon, you know, relationships during a time of conflict.
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Mm-hmm.
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00:31:16,910.1897817 --> 00:31:37,383.6708302
And I think also what I love about this book, and I think about this a lot actually, with the times that we are in, you know, when, when we look at what's happening, and I think, how is this impacting the natural world? You know, we're seeing all of this happening, and I, I do, I really do think about you know, the ocean and the trees and the birds and their habitat.
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00:31:37,803.6708302 --> 00:31:43,683.6708302
And I suppose what I love about this book is that, you know, it's the fig tree that is also one of the key narrators in it.
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Talking about issues around displacement, but also giving a perspective in terms of land and what happens.
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00:31:52,493.6708302 --> 00:31:59,333.6708302
So yeah, there's a lot of the book that is still resonating with me and working its way through me, but I'm so glad for the recommendation.
355
00:31:59,963.6708302 --> 00:32:01,703.6708302
Oh yeah, it's a beautiful book.
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00:32:01,703.6708302 --> 00:32:02,273.6708302
I read it too.
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I actually read it when I was on holiday in Cyprus.
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Oh, wow.
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00:32:05,28.6708302 --> 00:32:19,643.6708302
Because it's based in Cyprus, isn't it? And so that was wonderful, you say, but it really does it help encouraged us to have that, just that different understanding of communication and trees and our connections to the world and uh, yeah.
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00:32:19,643.6708302 --> 00:32:21,323.6708302
Diff, different kinds of knowing.
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00:32:21,423.6708302 --> 00:32:22,83.6708302
Yeah.
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00:32:22,83.6708302 --> 00:32:25,473.6708302
And we've, as I said, you know, one of my five Cs, we've gotta be connected.
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00:32:25,473.6708302 --> 00:32:39,851.541228
I think a lot of what we're experiencing in the world right now is because this sense of disconnection and individualism and if we all realise the extent to which we are connected, perhaps, you know, we wouldn't be where we are right now.
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00:32:40,471.724083 --> 00:32:41,71.724083
Absolutely.
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00:32:41,281.724083 --> 00:32:41,701.724083
Yes.
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00:32:41,701.724083 --> 00:32:42,361.724083
Thank you Viv.
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00:32:42,361.724083 --> 00:32:45,1.724083
So maybe just as a simple thing, we can all, yeah.
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00:32:45,1.724083 --> 00:32:51,331.724083
We can all do today is, get outside, go for a walk, maybe go find some trees.
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00:32:51,331.724083 --> 00:32:51,391.724083
Mm.
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00:32:52,501.724083 --> 00:32:52,531.724083
Mm.
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00:32:53,71.724083 --> 00:32:53,401.724083
Great.
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00:32:53,791.724083 --> 00:33:01,201.724083
Thank you so much for sharing with us, and we will all the books and things we've talked about today, we'll make sure I put put details of those in the show notes.
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Lovely.
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00:33:02,401.724083 --> 00:33:02,881.724083
Okay.
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00:33:02,881.724083 --> 00:33:03,721.724083
Thank you, Liz.
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A big thank you again to Viv Grant for sharing her experiences with us of learning to walk in the dark.
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And thanks to you for listening.
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If this episode has resonated or inspired you to take action, let us know in the comments.
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And for another take on leadership through challenging times, check out episode 23 with Paul K Ainsworth on Crisis Recovery in Schools.
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Be back with you soon.
00:00:01,995.4545454545 --> 00:00:09,225.4545454545
Hello and welcome back to the Creating Value in Schools podcast, where we talk about how we can work more sustainably in schools.
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And today we're focusing I'd say on personal sustainability.
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What keeps us going in tough times or, or what can help us navigate and come to terms with challenges we may encounter.
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And I'm delighted to have Viv Grant of Integrity Coaching with me.
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Welcome Viv.
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Thank you.
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And yeah, Viv has many years of experience as both a coach and a head teacher and has a real passion for supporting leaders born out of her own experience.
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And we'll come back to some of that.
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But where I wanted to start today is your book, Viv, Learning to Walk in the Dark.
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And when I first came across you talking about the book, the thing that really intrigued me was the art and how you discovered creativity as a way of sustaining you through a tough time.
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So do you wanna start by telling us a bit about that? Yes, Liz.
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And whenever I'm asked that question, I suppose I always take a really deep breath 'cause it takes me back to a time in my life that I hadn't expected; a time in my life that, um, I call it winter now.
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And I think I, in the book I talk about winter will take you by surprise.
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And so essentially how I came to discover creativity and art was the result of a cancer diagnosis.
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Um, it was August, 2023.
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And the irony of it, I say the irony of it as you introduced me by saying how I have this deep interest in wellbeing and sustaining school leaders.
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I had just started my PhD and literally I had finished a literature review around wholeness in school leadership.
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And what is it that school leaders need to attend to around this theme of wholeness.
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And then the literature talks about, for many leaders that comes a point in time where they have an existential experience where everything they knew about themselves is actually taken away.
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It's a crisis of some sort.
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And it talks about how they rebuild themselves back together through the trauma.
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And that's how they were, it was describing wholeness.
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I literally was about to put pen to paper.
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Yes.
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And I get a phone call saying, you've got to come in for these emergency CT and MRI scans.
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And it was only in retrospect when I look back, 'cause obviously, you know, not obviously, but those scans then led to me being told that I had a rare form of cancer.
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But it is only when I had time and space afterwards that, and when I was recollecting, it was like, oh my goodness, Viv, it was like life was saying to you, okay, academically, Viv, yes, you can have this knowledge and you can write about it, but now you're gonna have a real embodied experience of what wholeness means.
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And so it was, it was one of, yeah, I think I can truly say hand on heart, it was one of the most surreal, scary experiences that I've, I've ever had.
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And going back to your question around art and creativity, in one of my post-op meetings, I'm still being looked after by the Royal Marsden.
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I'm in my monitoring phase now, but this is before the operation.
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I was in the waiting room and I just saw on, on the wall the list of services that they provided and one of them was art therapy.
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I thought, oh, that'd be really good.
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You know, maybe after the operation and so forth, I'll sign up for that.
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But when I inquired, they said they hadn't had an art therapist for 18 months.
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So I was like, what am I gonna do that? Why have that up? They get people's hopes up and then we can't do it.
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And so then I came home and in passing I mentioned it to my daughter and her best friend, Eisha.
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Eisha is an art student.
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And jokingly, really, Eisha said to me, oh Viv, I'll be your art therapist.
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And I didn't really think anything of it.
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I really didn't.
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And then about a week after surgery when I could barely walk, I was still feeling really sad and sorry for myself 'cause I had to have a hysterectomy.
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Um, Eisha came round and her and my daughter, they decorated our front room with fairy lights and plants and soft music.
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And they said, Viv, come in here.
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And Eisha, she'd bought, um, little, um, pots of acrylic paint and little acrylic canvases.
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And she said to me, Viv, just paint.
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And I'm just like, what? What do I paint? I can't paint.
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I never painted before.
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Why you telling me to just paint, Usha? I said, I dunno what to paint.
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And she just said, Viv, don't overthink it.
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And I just started to paint and you know, I still do feel a bit tearful when I think about it because it was such, um, I suppose just a very deep experience.
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Mm-hmm.
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And I started to paint and these images started to pour out of me.
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The first one was just of a tree, just naked in winter.
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And I didn't really think much of it, to be honest, but, you know, I've done it.
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But then what happened was I went to bed.
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I woke up the next morning, I've gotta paint, I've gotta paint, I've gotta paint, and another image came to mind and I painted.
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And then I'd go to sleep again and another image.
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And every morning, literally for about three weeks, I'm waking up and I've gotta paint, I've gotta paint, I've gotta paint.
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And, it was a really sort of surreal experience because my family, they were deeply worried.
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'cause when I say it was a three week period, because we were waiting to go back to the hospital to find out whether the cancer had spread.
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And so my husband, he's a bit of a worrier, he was really worried that, you know, oh my god, whatever.
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And, but he said, you know, Viv, in those three weeks, something magical happened.
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He said, because, and this is the room where I would paint in, actually, funny enough, this is a room used to be my daughter's bedroom, but we decorated, so it's the smallest room in the house.
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And this is where I would come and paint.
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And he said, a peace descended over the house.
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You would just retreat into that room.
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You'd maybe show up for lunch or something.
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You'd go back in.
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And then at the end of the day you, you'd come out and you'd say, look, look what I've painted.
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And everyone else would be surprised.
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I would be surprised.
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And sometimes I'd just sit and I'd look at them because I didn't really have any understanding or words.
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All I know, all I knew was that when I painted time just changed and it morphed.
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And I had no sense of, you know, how time was passing.
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I was given like a whole raft of painkillers when I came out of hospital.
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I only took one in that whole time.
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And I'm sure it was the impact of the painting and it taking me to a very different place in myself.
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So that's how it all came about, Liz.
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Yeah.
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Gosh, thank you for sharing Viv.
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That's quite, what an experience.
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Yeah.
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And I, And I guess, yeah.
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Something that's coming through to me in reading the book.
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Yeah.
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Which I've dipped into.
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And now I've sort of gone back to the beginning on, is that, is a kind of invitation to something deeper, a soul experience, a connection? And I found that, yeah.
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That to me is interesting, I suppose.
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Yeah.
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We live so much in our heads and I think in the book you mentioned, you know, there's the rational self.
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What do I need to know about this and what do I need to do here? But actually it feels to me like it was in allowing almost something more magical or soulful that enabled you to come to terms with this experience.
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Yeah, most definitely.
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As I was listening to you there, um, Liz, what I was reminded of, you know, when you talk about going to a deeper, so more soulful place, when, um, when we went to the hospital and we were waiting hours and hours and hours before I was wheeled into the operation operating room.
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'cause they told us I was gonna be the first one to be operated on.
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So we got there really, really early.
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And then when I got there, they said, oh, actually, because of the type of cancer that you've got and the level of risk, you are gonna be the last one to be operated on.
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And then you're gonna be in ICU.
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And so luckily I had bought some reading material with me, and one of the books I bought was, um, by John O'Donohue.
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He's, he's no longer alive, Irish poet.
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Um, and it was his book of blessings.
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And there was one poem in particular that I kept being drawn to, and it's called A Blessing for a Friend on the Arrival of Illness.
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And there was one line that I couldn't shake, and it just kept saying something along the lines, may you find within yourself a gracious hospitality to what is difficult, painful, and unknown.
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And again, I didn't know at the time, but those words, they just kept coming back to me.
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And actually I didn't, in my recovery, I came home and I actually incorporated them into a painting.
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And it's almost, well, obviously, you know, I think with his work and the way in which he, he wrote, he had this sense of how, of how we are drawn into a deeper relationship with soul, with the wiser part of ourselves.
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And I look back now, and I think that's what he was talking about, how to find a courageous hospitality with what's difficult, painful, and un unknown.
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It's not through here.
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We don't do that through here.
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It's through our heart, it's through our soul, and it's through, often it is through crisis.
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Again, there's another, um, storyteller, Michael Mead, and he talks about, um, the gold is found beside the wound.
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And yeah, so that's, so, you know, when you are reflecting back to me, that's where my mind just went to the, you know, I do believe, and you know, it's been my own life experience, the work that I do with school leaders, that we all have a deep inner wisdom.
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We all do, but because of the busyness of life, we don't always necessarily find ways to access it.
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I think so.
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That's right.
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And also I think, particularly maybe in like western culture, our society, we always want to, we don't want to dwell on the difficult stuff, do we? You know, we want to move on.
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Let's think about the positive, let's put it away.
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And so, yeah, that line, that line in the poem, that idea of a courageous hospitality towards what is difficult and painful is quite unfamiliar actually, isn't it? To, to a lot of us.
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We are, we are not used to that way of thinking.
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Mm-hmm.
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I, I think there's, what I would say, it's almost like an em emotional immaturity.
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It stunts our growth.
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And again, I, because you know, my background is in headship and the work that I do is with school leaders, it's very much for me, this thing, we ask for our leaders to be wise.
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We ask for them to be able to have the capacity to make wise decisions.
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But the fiction that goes alongside that is that you get there by brushing things aside, by being strong and resilient and pretending everything is is okay.
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But again, another thing that's happened, you know, through the cancer and coming out on the other side, I've really turned to nature and learning and just really leaning into what nature has to say to us.
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And I do feel that is, again, through the paintings, we, because it was just the trees, I mean, a lot of my paintings were rooted in nature and trees.
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And this sense that, you know, we, we look at oaks and we admire them, don't we? We admire these great big ancient oaks that stand in our parks, in our woodland.
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But again, those oaks, they don't happen, they don't, that strength, that majesty that we see doesn't happen overnight.
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They face storms the same that we do, but their roots grow deeper and deeper with each storm.
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The bark, it gets stronger and stronger with each storm.
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We are not separate from nature.
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And if we can see ourselves in relation to what nature has to say to us about what it means to be alive even, and that you know that difficulties and challenges are a part of the experience of being alive, then perhaps we'll have a different way of engaging with life with the challenges of leadership.
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Absolutely.
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And something I did also want to mention is, yeah, the cancer that you had is one that is particularly prevalent among women of colour.
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So I imagine, did this draw your attention further to inequalities around health and race? And I feel it's something, isn't it perhaps recent years COVID experiences and things have drawn our attention to.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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Yes, most definitely.
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And again, you know, it was all part of the shock of the experience.
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One, it was a shock just to be, be told you've got cancer.
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Then two, a shock, and it is my husband and my, and myself actually through our own research, is to discover that it was one that's common in women of colour.
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But then I think, and three, you know, this goes to the inequalities and so forth, those who were treating me didn't want to know it.
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They, they really, um, didn't, can I say the phrase, didn't care.
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Oh.
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And, and that was really, it was very difficult for myself, particularly because, you know, as long as well as the work that I do around leadership, I do a lot of work around race.
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And so in my work, I'd often spoken about how race impacts people of colour.
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And there, and I'd, and I'd spoken about it, you know, in ways in which I often related to my own school experiences and the racism that I experienced at school.
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And now I was having another sort of experience of how race impacts the lives of people of colour.
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I, I, I can't tell you again, Liz, you know, just the impact that, that had.
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There's a book by an author, I, I'm gonna forget her name now.
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I think it's Joyce DeGruy, I think it's called, um, slave, oh, I can't remember now, but something, slave syndrome, something like that.
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But it's about the post-traumatic slave syndrome.
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That's what it is.
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Mm-hmm.
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And then, you know, she talks in it about intergenerational trauma and the markers that are left upon our bodies.
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And again, I'm, I'm, it's, if I'm honest, it's really something that I'm still working through.
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Quite obviously at the time, you know, I was seeing a therapist and tentatively I would say to, you know, I'm gonna read this book, or there's these other books that are come into my awareness.
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But I don't know how strong I feel right now.
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And I think I'm still on that path.
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There are still some books that I know would give me a greater under, maybe mental understanding, rational understanding.
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But it's a lot.
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It's a lot.
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Yeah, and I very much, as much as, you know, I know I was under one of the best hospitals in terms of being treated.
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There was still very much a sense that you're kind of like a number really, and this is how they treat cancer.
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So you have to go by the book in terms of what they say and it doesn't matter.
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Well, I didn't feel it mattered really, whether my, you know, my ethnicity or so forth, so yeah.
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Like something else.
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Oh, I dunno.
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Yeah.
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Part of that tree, that growth, isn't it? I dunno.
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Yeah.
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As time goes on.
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It's something to read, think on more.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I think where I am quite right now in my own journey is that sense of, I, yeah, it's, I, yes, I know that my art, my creativity, it will help me through.
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There's that, that inner knowing, there's that sense of, I'm so funny.
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I'm looking at a painting.
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I might as well just get it.
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I'll explain it more now, but one of the things I was gonna say, as well as trees, fire was very present in my, in, in my paintings then, and in my paintings posts then, so this is one that I wasn't really, again, I was painting it and actually I'm looking in the back and I've called it Tree of Life, but when, again, when I, so again, when I'm painting very often, I dunno what I'm gonna be painting.
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It just sort of comes out and then I've, you know, looked at the symbolism around fire and that is all to do with purification.
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It's all to do with that sense of creating, you know, levelling the ground for new life to come forth.
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And so I'm kind of like accepting that life has put me on this path now where I suppose it's inviting me, I would say, to different ways of knowing and different ways of dealing with the complexities of life.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Fire, rebirth.
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It, it's a technique, isn't it? Like I think in Australia.
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Yes, exactly.
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Aboriginal culture.
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Yes.
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Fire is actually, is a way of managing the land, isn't it? Allowing other things to come forth.
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For details about Viv's book and other authors mentioned, check out the links in the show notes.
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Coming up, we are going to hear from Viv about how her experiences have influenced her work with school leaders, what life might be like if Osted inspectors drew on their inner wisdom, and why we all need to take off the superhero t-shirt and get connected.
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Back to the show.
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And let's, so we've mentioned courage, creativity, and in the book there are some other Cs as well, aren't there? So tell us more about the five Cs.
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Okay, so the five Cs, they are curiosity, compassion, courage, connection.
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Maybe, I can't remember the fifth one, you'll have to remind me.
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I'm going to...
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commitments.
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Commitment, curiosity, commitment, courage, compassion, connection.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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And they came about, again, it wasn't rational.
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Again, it was when, because I, again, I didn't even, I didn't intend to put a book out.
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Those paintings were meant to be private and they were meant to be just for me alone.
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And it was only when I returned back to work that, um, I did a small workshop with a few head teachers and I thought, I'm gonna be brave.
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I'm gonna do some creativity with them, and I'm gonna introduce some of the paintings.
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And they were like, Viv, you know what you have to do, don't you? And I'm like, no.
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Like, Viv, you know what you have to do.
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Don't, you're like, no.
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But then I just thought, if you've gotta walk your talk, you know, and if other people are saying that these paintings and the way in which I engage with them and talk about them can be of help, then actually Viv, you know, you owe it to them and you owe it to what you are about to put them out.
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And so when I started to put the book together, I started to think about what was my process.
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How did I get through that time? And then I realised there were certain qualities that I actually, were nurtured within me over that time.
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So curiosity, for example.
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I think to begin with, if I'm really honest I was in so much shock.
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I was also quite critical.
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And I, what have I done to my body? Is this my fault? Oh my goodness, what have I done? And then over time I realised that that changed to curiosity.
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I was no longer being critical, but I needed to be curious.
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And again, going back to the John O'Donohue quote, you know, so what is it? Why have you come into my life? What is it that you want to show me? So I had to develop a new way of being, a new relationship.
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And then the one, the C, that's around connection.
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I realised when I came out the other side of it all, that I had a deeper connection to what I feel is my life pur life's purpose, which is around being in the education sphere, really enabling school leaders to be the best versions of themselves.
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But I felt I had a, I deepened my understanding around wellbeing.
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As I said at the very beginning, this whole thing around wholeness and what it means and how to cultivate wisdom: that had grown.
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I felt a deeper connection to the natural world, to the world around me, and recognising that I was just as much a part of it and that there was so much, and for me in particular, it has been around trees.
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There was just so much that I could learn from nature and being in deep connection and relationship with nature.
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So really, yeah, those five Cs, they just came about by me just pausing and reflecting.
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Okay.
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So what were the qualities Viv that enabled you to travel through, you know, this dark night of the soul really? Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Coming back to, I think it's, oh, again, I would say I feel like in Western society often we sort of talk about man versus nature, and I think that's one of those problematic things, isn't it, it doesn't help us really take care of the environment or climate, because of course we're part of nature.
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We're natural too, aren't we? We are part of that.
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Yeah.
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So, yeah, I think it's really interesting that this, that was, um, yeah.
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A path you've been down.
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Yeah.
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And it kind of takes me to, yeah.
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One of the things I'm really interested about your experience with the head teachers.
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'cause again, I feel like school's a place of, I know, action, busyness, um, intellect.
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Yeah.
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And so I'm wondering how, yeah, those, those head teachers who maybe you've talked to about, actually let's talk about art or creativity or expressing something different.
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So how has that gone down? Or is it a case of, because I imagine it could be a case of, look, I'm a busy, overwhelmed head teacher.
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I've got time to pick up a paintbrush.
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Yeah.
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It's been a really lovely experience, if I'm honest.
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I think what I have found over the years is that in terms of education, there are no cookie type.
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You know, we have the sort of stereotype of a head teacher, but I know from the ones who are called to our work, they're already on this path, whether we call it soul awakening or wanting to lead differently.
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So one of the things that we did, or that I did out coming out on the other side, we created a programme called Learning to Walk in the Dark, specifically for head teachers, where I take the lessons that I have learned, you know, and it's just a short, runs over, I think six months I think.
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Yeah.
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Modules that explore aspects of learning to walk in the dark.
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And I'll never forget, so we did the pilot last year, and I'll never forget one head teacher, and I think it was just about in the first or second session, she said, I used to write poetry.
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I've forgotten I used to do that.
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I'm gonna go back to doing that.
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And so what I have found is, as I said at the beginning, we all have the capacity to tap into another way of knowing this deep inner wisdom.
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And it's about create, what I have found, it's about creating spaces.
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And I always say to heads, just take off that superhero cloak.
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It's not needed here.
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Just come as you are and it takes, it can take your head sometimes a bit of a while.
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That does Viv really mean it? It's like, oh she does.
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And then you just see this beautiful unfolding and it's so lovely.
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Again, I can think of another head last year and I think it was towards the end, said Viv? And I think I did a session with them on intuition and just trusting, that quiet inner voice.
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'cause again, for head teachers, you know, you've got so many other voices saying do this.
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And he said, you know, it is just so interesting because before I wouldn't have felt brave or strong enough to talk with my SLT about trusting their own inner wisdom.
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And when we come together as a team, how important that is when we're doing our decision making.
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But now I feel brave enough to do that again.
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I can think of another head who before and actually he was brilliant actually.
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'cause he probably was not at what I would say the typical IC head teacher.
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He had been through the wars and what education had taught him was, you are the superhead, you don't ever show anyone vulnerability.
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And I'll take my hat off to him.
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But something inside must have been saying to him anyway, this is the space that you need.
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'cause it really was so enlightening for him.
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It's like.
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I can be different.
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I can hold the role in a different way.
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And it was beautiful.
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It was so beautiful.
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What I would say, to see him come into a different relationship with himself, that allowed him to engage with his emotions, that allowed him to recognise that he also had a deep inner wisdom as well.
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And that if he let go of, you know, the sort of stereotype notions of how to hold headship, he could hold it in a way that was more generative and supportive of himself.
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So, yeah.
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So what I find is the heads who are on this journey, they find us.
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They find us.
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Which is good, isn't it? 'cause part of me feels as I know, you've, you've been doing this work for a long time Yeah.
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And sharing this message of, you know, the heads need to take, gotta take that superhero t-shirt off, in the end, it's not going to serve you.
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Yeah.
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00:26:10,259.3234279 --> 00:26:39,239.3234279
I was wonder if you ever feel like, do you feel, is this message ever gonna get through? Are things changing? I think the older I get, I hope, I hope I get a bit wiser and I'm sort of, you know, I kind of accepting in some respects of where we are in education and an understanding that really that those who make the policy guidelines and so forth, they haven't necessarily done their inner work.
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And so therefore it will mean that we will have a very reduced, I should say, or diminished sense of what wellbeing is.
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00:26:49,219.3234279 --> 00:26:54,169.3234279
And I just think, well, Viv, you know what you believe, you know what integrity believes.
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So if you, you, if you can just be one light and keep that light shining as brightly as you can, then that's the best that you can do.
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So for me it's like, so yeah, I accept that.
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But it means, so when you said, you know, frustrated, I think maybe in my younger days I might have got a bit frustrated, but now I don't.
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Now I'm just kind of like, okay, this is the landscape, but I know what is mine to do, what is integrity's work to do in that landscape? And I know that the heads who would benefit from our message, who benefit from our services, they will find us.
292
00:27:30,859.3234279 --> 00:27:32,29.3234279
They will find us.
293
00:27:32,459.3234279 --> 00:27:33,192.9597915
Yeah, yeah.
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00:27:33,222.9597915 --> 00:27:34,32.9597915
I guess it's, yes.
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00:27:34,82.9597915 --> 00:27:36,932.9597915
What is the change that I can be? Exactly.
296
00:27:36,962.9597915 --> 00:27:37,772.9597915
Exactly.
297
00:27:37,772.9597915 --> 00:27:38,582.9597915
Exactly.
298
00:27:38,702.9597915 --> 00:27:39,212.9597915
Yeah.
299
00:27:39,272.9597915 --> 00:27:39,512.9597915
Yes.
300
00:27:39,512.9597915 --> 00:27:39,842.9597915
Yeah.
301
00:27:39,847.9597915 --> 00:27:40,157.9597915
Mm-hmm.
302
00:27:40,517.9597915 --> 00:27:52,872.9597915
Although this is putting like, I know nice ideas in my head of what would it be if Ofsted, if Ofsted inspectors were drawing more on their inner wisdom and intuition.
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00:27:53,293.5836195 --> 00:28:03,298.5836195
We could all dream couldn't we? That would be, you imagine, can you imagine school leaders saying, yeah Ofsted, come in, come in, it be so wonderful.
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Oh well, yes.
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00:28:06,471.7038457 --> 00:28:06,891.7038457
Thank you.
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00:28:06,891.7038457 --> 00:28:07,911.7038457
And I was, yeah.
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I was interested too for, maybe leaders out there who are getting in touch with things and are want, want to share or write things as well themselves.
308
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Tell us about the experience.
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00:28:19,671.7038457 --> 00:28:22,701.7038457
'cause you touched on a bit of the experience of putting this book together.
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How was it? And I noticed, you've, you haven't gone down a, like, traditional publishing route.
311
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Mm-hmm.
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So, yeah.
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00:28:29,686.7038457 --> 00:28:38,401.7038457
Anything you'd like to share with us about that? I think you just really need, for me it was a case of, you know, why it came out through Integrity, I suppose.
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00:28:38,596.7038457 --> 00:28:40,756.7038457
I just wanted ownership of it, to be honest.
315
00:28:40,876.7038457 --> 00:28:40,996.7038457
Yeah.
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00:28:41,1.7038457 --> 00:28:42,916.7038457
And I know, knew how I wanted to use it.
317
00:28:42,916.7038457 --> 00:28:54,373.587421
And also, in particular, the paintings, there was something particular around the paintings and the way, you know, we worked with a professional, um, type setter as it were, and someone who works with images and so forth.
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So we found a good person to work with.
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And I suppose I just wanted greater artistic control, as it were.
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But I think the whole process.
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00:29:03,290.4199157 --> 00:29:05,360.4199157
Really, it's, it is a very personal process.
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00:29:05,360.4199157 --> 00:29:13,30.4199157
And this, as I said, this book, I never, ever planned, like, you know, my first book, Staying A Head, that was planned and I knew why I was writing that and so forth.
323
00:29:13,480.4199157 --> 00:29:24,940.4199157
This one, it wasn't planned, but I suppose the only advice I would give is really just be clear about your reasons as to why you want to write, the reasons as to why you want to put it out in the world.
324
00:29:25,20.4199157 --> 00:29:30,990.4199157
And you can make that decision as to whether you go through a traditional route or whether you know, you publish it yourself.
325
00:29:30,990.4199157 --> 00:29:43,831.0437437
I think there are so many avenues that are open to people out now who want to get their messaging out into the world, and I think individuals can decide on which route would best suit them and the purposes as to why they're deciding to put something out.
326
00:29:44,521.0437437 --> 00:29:44,791.0437437
Yeah.
327
00:29:45,31.0437437 --> 00:29:45,811.0437437
No, thank you.
328
00:29:45,811.0437437 --> 00:29:56,996.0437437
Yeah, and I definitely, in looking at the book, I really appreciate, I can see it's really carefully laid out and how things are positioned and the quotes and mm-hmm.
329
00:29:57,1.0437437 --> 00:29:58,561.0437437
And the space too.
330
00:29:58,591.0437437 --> 00:30:02,881.0437437
The space, isn't it? This is definitely a book for people to interact with.
331
00:30:02,911.0437437 --> 00:30:03,901.0437437
Exactly.
332
00:30:03,901.0437437 --> 00:30:04,801.0437437
Exactly.
333
00:30:04,801.0437437 --> 00:30:05,161.0437437
Yeah.
334
00:30:05,161.0437437 --> 00:30:05,611.0437437
Yeah.
335
00:30:06,91.0437437 --> 00:30:08,701.0437437
It's something to read with a pen or pencil in your hand.
336
00:30:10,241.6433891 --> 00:30:10,691.6433891
Okay.
337
00:30:10,691.6433891 --> 00:30:25,921.6433891
But, so, because, yeah, clearly there's lots of things that you've read and inspired, and again, I think one of the lovely things about the book is it's an invitation because John O'Donohue, that wasn't a name I knew, but there's people there to, to then go and explore further.
338
00:30:26,191.6433891 --> 00:30:26,431.6433891
But yeah.
339
00:30:26,551.6433891 --> 00:30:37,236.6433891
Tell us, what have you been reading or listening to recently that inspired you? So, a lovely book that I have just finished reading is The Island of Missing Trees.
340
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And this was recommended to me, actually.
341
00:30:40,441.6433891 --> 00:30:45,271.6433891
I'd just finished, I was speaking at a conference and a delegate came up to me afterwards.
342
00:30:45,959.1897817 --> 00:30:51,434.1897817
There's a book, there's a book you've gotta read, because when I was talking, I was talking about trees and everything.
343
00:30:51,464.1897817 --> 00:30:54,194.1897817
She goes, you've gotta read this book, Viv, you've gotta read this book.
344
00:30:54,614.1897817 --> 00:30:56,594.1897817
And this was the book that she recommended to me.
345
00:30:56,594.1897817 --> 00:30:59,864.1897817
And she was so right for a variety of reasons.
346
00:30:59,864.1897817 --> 00:31:00,734.1897817
She was so right.
347
00:31:00,734.1897817 --> 00:31:03,614.1897817
Really in terms of recommending it to me.
348
00:31:03,614.1897817 --> 00:31:11,529.1897817
But I think, you know, one of, I think a lot of it is still sort of resting with me, really, because we are, we're living in a time of conflict now, aren't we? Absolutely.
349
00:31:11,534.1897817 --> 00:31:16,64.1897817
You know, and this is based upon, you know, relationships during a time of conflict.
350
00:31:16,814.1897817 --> 00:31:16,904.1897817
Mm-hmm.
351
00:31:16,910.1897817 --> 00:31:37,383.6708302
And I think also what I love about this book, and I think about this a lot actually, with the times that we are in, you know, when, when we look at what's happening, and I think, how is this impacting the natural world? You know, we're seeing all of this happening, and I, I do, I really do think about you know, the ocean and the trees and the birds and their habitat.
352
00:31:37,803.6708302 --> 00:31:43,683.6708302
And I suppose what I love about this book is that, you know, it's the fig tree that is also one of the key narrators in it.
353
00:31:44,603.6708302 --> 00:31:52,193.6708302
Talking about issues around displacement, but also giving a perspective in terms of land and what happens.
354
00:31:52,493.6708302 --> 00:31:59,333.6708302
So yeah, there's a lot of the book that is still resonating with me and working its way through me, but I'm so glad for the recommendation.
355
00:31:59,963.6708302 --> 00:32:01,703.6708302
Oh yeah, it's a beautiful book.
356
00:32:01,703.6708302 --> 00:32:02,273.6708302
I read it too.
357
00:32:02,453.6708302 --> 00:32:04,883.6708302
I actually read it when I was on holiday in Cyprus.
358
00:32:04,913.6708302 --> 00:32:05,28.6708302
Oh, wow.
359
00:32:05,28.6708302 --> 00:32:19,643.6708302
Because it's based in Cyprus, isn't it? And so that was wonderful, you say, but it really does it help encouraged us to have that, just that different understanding of communication and trees and our connections to the world and uh, yeah.
360
00:32:19,643.6708302 --> 00:32:21,323.6708302
Diff, different kinds of knowing.
361
00:32:21,423.6708302 --> 00:32:22,83.6708302
Yeah.
362
00:32:22,83.6708302 --> 00:32:25,473.6708302
And we've, as I said, you know, one of my five Cs, we've gotta be connected.
363
00:32:25,473.6708302 --> 00:32:39,851.541228
I think a lot of what we're experiencing in the world right now is because this sense of disconnection and individualism and if we all realise the extent to which we are connected, perhaps, you know, we wouldn't be where we are right now.
364
00:32:40,471.724083 --> 00:32:41,71.724083
Absolutely.
365
00:32:41,281.724083 --> 00:32:41,701.724083
Yes.
366
00:32:41,701.724083 --> 00:32:42,361.724083
Thank you Viv.
367
00:32:42,361.724083 --> 00:32:45,1.724083
So maybe just as a simple thing, we can all, yeah.
368
00:32:45,1.724083 --> 00:32:51,331.724083
We can all do today is, get outside, go for a walk, maybe go find some trees.
369
00:32:51,331.724083 --> 00:32:51,391.724083
Mm.
370
00:32:52,501.724083 --> 00:32:52,531.724083
Mm.
371
00:32:53,71.724083 --> 00:32:53,401.724083
Great.
372
00:32:53,791.724083 --> 00:33:01,201.724083
Thank you so much for sharing with us, and we will all the books and things we've talked about today, we'll make sure I put put details of those in the show notes.
373
00:33:01,471.724083 --> 00:33:02,71.724083
Lovely.
374
00:33:02,401.724083 --> 00:33:02,881.724083
Okay.
375
00:33:02,881.724083 --> 00:33:03,721.724083
Thank you, Liz.
376
00:33:04,883.3528465 --> 00:33:10,403.3528465
A big thank you again to Viv Grant for sharing her experiences with us of learning to walk in the dark.
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00:33:10,763.3528465 --> 00:33:12,83.3528465
And thanks to you for listening.
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00:33:12,653.3528465 --> 00:33:18,443.3528465
If this episode has resonated or inspired you to take action, let us know in the comments.
379
00:33:19,43.3528465 --> 00:33:28,253.3528465
And for another take on leadership through challenging times, check out episode 23 with Paul K Ainsworth on Crisis Recovery in Schools.
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Be back with you soon.
