WEBVTT
00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:04.400
Hey everybody, welcome to Comic Books Beyond.
00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:10.160
I'm your host, Vic, and we have with us Texas's most wanted returning guest, Jeremy Whitley.
00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:10.880
Welcome to the show.
00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:11.919
Welcome back to the show.
00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:12.880
Thanks.
00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:16.399
I mean, I'm pretty good at this being most wanted.
00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:19.519
I'm not even in Texas, and you know, they're after me.
00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:22.320
So in the States, I'm not even in.
00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:29.199
I'm sorry that happened, but I know some people would consider that an honor, but it still, you know, sucks.
00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:35.520
But yeah, it's, you know, you you want your your books to be available to kids.
00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:57.840
You want kids to be able to you know, the the whole reason The Dog Knight, which is is the book that is is banned, is uh is what it is, is because we want you know kids to be able to see themselves in in books, and uh, you know, clearly there are some politicians in Texas that do not want kids to feel represented and safe and all that stuff.
00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:07.599
No, no, but but we are here to talk about a couple things, including Navigating With You Volume 2, which is coming out in is that November that's coming out, or is that is that October?
00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:08.640
Uh November.
00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:11.840
It was originally scheduled for October, it's been moved back to November.
00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:12.560
Gotcha.
00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:14.959
So I I've read Navigating With You Volume 2.
00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.000
I also read Navigating With You Volume 1.
00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:20.159
Uh, I enjoyed the hell out of both.
00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:22.319
I'm about three-quarters of the way through Dog Knight.
00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:26.640
Uh, I I wish I got a chance to finish that today, but my day took a couple turns.
00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:28.719
They have a way of doing that recently.
00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:30.079
Uh yeah, yeah.
00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:30.879
Yeah.
00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:32.400
Alright.
00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:38.239
So, first of all, can you give us your elevator pitch for you know honestly, both of these books if you want?
00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:43.120
Maybe a something meets something, or if you like this, you'd like Dog Knight or navigating with you.
00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:44.000
Ooh.
00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:58.400
Um, so navigating with you is I I think in in some extent the the pitch sort of sells it as it is, and that it's um the story about uh falling in love over obscure manga.
00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:00.959
It's what I always tell people at the uh cons.
00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:32.159
It's about two girls who uh moved to the same town in North Carolina, Durham, where I'm from, uh, and they uh are both coming from from different states and from different schools, and uh end up bonding over um this shared love of this this manga that they were both into as kids, uh, that suddenly uh they realize that neither of them is ever finished, and since they don't have other friends in the school, they decide to put together a little book club to try and finish this manga.
00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:46.960
Um so they have to track down all the books of it so that they can uh read these and uh finally finally get to the end of it, if possible, over the course of uh this book club, they end up becoming friends and then uh quite a bit more than friends.
00:02:47.199 --> 00:03:00.719
Um so I think it's uh I I think if you love reading, uh ironically, if you love reading manga or just reading and sharing books with friends, uh I think this is something that will immediately appeal to you.
00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:09.919
Uh, but especially if you know you're a fan of uh Yuri or or queer graphic novels in general, uh this will be something that'll immediately click with you.
00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:16.159
Uh and then of course, uh navigating with you is a navigating with you volume two is a continuation of that.
00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:31.120
Um first one takes place all across their junior year, and then uh the second one is is their senior year, and dealing with sort of the complications of being in a relationship and at that point uh a somewhat long distance one, not to spoil anything.
00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:39.919
Um But all of the all of the more difficult things of of actually maintaining a relationship rather than uh getting into one.
00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:45.280
As for the dog night, trying to think what is the blank meets blank of that one.
00:03:45.439 --> 00:04:01.199
I think if you if you enjoy sort of like chosen one stories, if you enjoy uh a little like fantasy action adventure, and you're also a big fan of of dogs generally, if you just like uh stories about dogs, if you like magical talking dogs.
00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:03.199
Uh so if you have a soul.
00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:03.840
Yeah.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:06.400
You know, as long as you're not a a cat person.
00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:08.240
What if you're an everything person?
00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:09.120
Sure.
00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:11.360
Then then I I think it's good.
00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:27.680
Um yeah, I think you know, it's about uh a non-binary middle schooler, Frankie, who is recruited by a group of magical dogs who are called the Potheon, who are uh a group of sort of dog superheroes, each one that represents one of the values that dogs hold most dear.
00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:40.800
Uh and they recruit Frankie to become the dog knight, whose job is to work with dog this group of dogs to help save the world from the forces of chaos that are secretly surrounding us all the time, but only dogs can see.
00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:44.319
Uh so what kind of research did you do for the dog knight?
00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:54.480
Were you just hanging out in dog parks all week or uh I think the biggest the biggest uh research of the dog night was just having a dog.
00:04:54.720 --> 00:05:22.560
Um you've had a dog for any any period of time, uh it sort of started with the idea that like dogs can see things that we can't, which if you've ever had a dog that you know barks and scratches at strange things that don't seem to be there at odd hours of the day and night, who just like you know, we'll will get up to go handle something and it is unclear what it is to you as a human before they you know just circle back and come back right to where they were before.
00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:34.480
Um, that was sort of like the driving idea is that you know these dogs are uh protectors not just from the things we can see, but there are things that we can't see that uh dogs are out there helping us out with.
00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:41.360
And of course, that sort of led to the idea that there's a a contract there between humans and dogs.
00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:46.480
Uh that you know, we we provide the the food and the comfort and they provide the protection.
00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:55.439
Um and so from there it was just a question of uh figuring out what a what a dog Avengers or dog justice league looks like.
00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:58.000
I I really do enjoy the Potheon.
00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:00.879
As soon as I got to that, I'm like, oh, this is just adorable.
00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:05.120
I cannot wait to give this to one of my friends with kids or one of my friends with dogs.
00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:10.160
I I don't currently have a dog, we have cats, and uh we have nothing against dogs.
00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:15.439
I had a dog growing up, just uh uh cats are supposed to be easier to deal with, and that's a lie.
00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:20.000
I've never had a cat that was easier to deal with than pretty much any dog we've ever had.
00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:25.199
No, no, my my dog growing up, I I finally get to tell this story.
00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:34.079
So he used to sit in front of the oven every day and stare at his own reflection and growl for three hours every night.
00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:44.560
And just reading this, uh, one of the dogs in here, um, I forget his name, but the one who is kind of like the dark knight of dogs, and this one we'll call him uh the justice dog.
00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:47.199
I I think it kind of Yorkshire Terror.
00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:49.040
Yeah, the Yorkshire Terror.
00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:53.600
Uh my dog was uh a Doberman, Lab, and Beagle.
00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:56.879
So a couple of big dogs with a really tiny dog put together.
00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:11.600
Yeah, so three big dogs, because all tiny dogs are sure that they're big dogs, which is is sort of was a lot of the motivation behind uh terror is like oh yeah, this is he is a Yorkie who thinks he's Batman.
00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.040
You know, he's always hiding and leaping from the shadows.
00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:23.439
He's he's the one with plans, he's the one that's always prepared and knows things, which I I I've had a lot of fun.
00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:30.079
He's one of the most fun to write because his his dialogue for me is often somewhere around Darkwing Duck.
00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:32.160
Um that's another good one, yeah.
00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:40.959
Yeah, he's he's very certain of his uh his own terrifyingness and his own size, even if he is uh physically obviously quite small.
00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:50.319
Now, did you have like certain characters in mind you wanted to model like the analogs of either the characters in Dog Knight or even navigating with you in?
00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:53.600
Because there's references to stuff you like all over this.
00:07:53.759 --> 00:08:03.360
Like I know you're a big wrestling fan, and there's little comic book references here and there, like I don't know, were you pict- picturing like Darby Allen in your head here or just uh any of the Avengers?
00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:04.480
What do we got?
00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:16.000
Um, I think with the dogs, I I wanted to have each of them like start with the idea of of what it is that they represent and sort of build a dog out from there.
00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:24.560
Um so yeah, I mean, you know, he's uh Terror is a little bit Darby Allen, a little bit Batman, a little bit Darkwing duck.
00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:29.439
Um, you know, just sort of uh always lurking, always scary.
00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:31.279
A little little the crow, even.
00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:33.120
Um yeah, I can see that too.
00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:38.080
Yeah, he's uh he's very sure of his own uh terrifying nature.
00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:48.480
Um I think the other funnest one to write for me is is Platinum, the Platinum Retriever, who is sort of Frankie's best buddy through the books.
00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:58.720
Um and Platinum is sort of based on uh what I was pretty sure my uh my own dog at the time, who is who's recently passed away, Ace.
00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:02.960
Um he was pretty old.
00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:10.080
Um and he is that's sort of what I figured Ace's voice was like, a little bit dopey, but very helpful.
00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:10.559
Yep.
00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:12.399
You know, very caring.
00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:16.159
His Platinum's whole thing is uh sense of smell.
00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:20.240
So, you know, that's sort of sort of a loose interpretation of that.
00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:34.559
He's always got has sort of a he has a little bit of a I guess for him it's a fifth sense, not a sixth sense, but uh you know, his his his nose tells him a lot more about the world around him than uh than ours does.
00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:40.399
So he's got a he's got a good sniffer, but also a good uh you know, gut feeling about things.
00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:45.039
But yeah, I think building him out from there I wanted to like play around a little bit with each of the things.
00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:58.159
I mean, Doug, whose thing is is stubbornness, uh seemed very obvious to me having had a bulldog uh some time ago, who just like if he decided he didn't want to do something, you weren't moving him.
00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:05.279
You know, you'd slide across the floor if you had to, but he wasn't uh he wasn't getting up and going anywhere if he didn't want to.
00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:06.159
Nope.
00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:23.919
My wife and I had a roommate for a little while, and she had a German short hair pointer, which that dog I thought he was on meth, and until we got him to exercise, I'd take him for a four-mile walk, and at the halfway point, I'd drag him back because it was that kind of dog.
00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:24.879
Yeah.
00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:28.240
Just plant into the grass and and not get back up.
00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:30.000
Yep, yep, that was him.
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:30.480
Yep.
00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:32.799
Uh so how about the girls in navigating with you?
00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:34.080
Where did where do they come from?
00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:54.559
So Nisha has little bits of of people in my own life, a little bit of um, a little bit of my wife, a little bit of her mom, uh, which uh Nisha's mom definitely has a mix of those two in there, um, but also a lot of people that I know from from working in comics who are cosplayers or or fans or writers.
00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:59.519
Um, you know, she's a uh creative and and justice-driven kind of person.
00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:13.200
Um, and one of the big things I wanted to do with her that I uh hadn't had a chance to do was when I had been working on Unstoppable Wasp at Marvel, and I had created sort of these background characters for that story.
00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:36.639
Um Taina, one of the background characters I created for that to be part of the the girl labs, uh used uh arm braces and it was uh head CP uh Cerebral Palsy, which was like an important part of her character, but being a supporting character in what turned out to not be a terribly long book, um, we only got to do so much with her.
00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:51.759
But while writing with her, I uh I met a fan and and writer himself uh who uh has CP and had volunteered to like give me some advice and and feedback on stuff with her and had helped me uh write some stuff around her.
00:11:52.000 --> 00:12:03.039
And um when I had this opportunity to write a romance story, I knew that I wanted this character, I wanted one of our lead characters to have a visible physical disability.
00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:14.159
Uh, because that's so rare in I mean any comics really, but especially in a romance story for our central romantic protagonist to have a physical disability.
00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:14.559
Right.
00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:39.519
Um so I felt like this really cool opportunity to to use this sort of consulting that I I already had uh and turn that into a part of this story and do something that felt uh important and unique and uh gave us a an element that you know I I had never seen in in stories like this that is you know very central to the character, if not necessarily the plot.
00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:46.080
And then on Gabby's side, she is uh she's based quite a bit on some stuff from from my own family.
00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:56.559
Her dad is is Mexican and is based sort of roughly on my own uh grandfather, my dad's stepdad, my tata, who is Mexican, and uh is actually named after him.
00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:58.000
They're both named Gabriel.
00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:09.200
But he's you know just sort of a uh a dad who's doing his best, and and Gabby is you know his his kid who is sort of living in a place that's unfamiliar.
00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:32.000
I moved around a lot as a kid, but is doing her best to be friendly and and to uh get along with everybody and has a really hard time not necessarily get along with other people, which is is something I I also struggle with myself, is just uh letting people not be my friends if they are uh if they are not if they're determined not to be, if they're determined not to be nice to me.
00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:38.000
Uh as a writer, I often find myself being like, but no, just just try this other thing.
00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:39.279
Just just give it another chance.
00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:41.279
I'm sure you'll like this thing.
00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.480
Um when some people are just determined not to like you.
00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:48.240
Uh and I I threw some of threw some of that into Gabby as well.
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:58.000
Uh also, if you've ever seen me at a convention, Gabby has the same problem with sitting in chairs correctly that I do, which is I don't I don't like to just uh sit.
00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:06.480
If you see me at a convention, I'll be kneeling or standing halfway on the chair, doing some sort of Captain Morgan pose or something like that.
00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.200
Uh, how is the convention circuit right now?
00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:15.360
I I know you're doing about 5,000 of them, and I I'm I'm gonna miss them all this year, unfortunately.
00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:20.960
They don't line up in any way I can go unless I magically get tickets to New York City for free.
00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:28.879
Yeah, it's um it's an interesting year because I have done a ton of shows, but they're all sort of lining up right here at the the end of the season.
00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:33.440
Um, but it's been a year where I've I've decided to skip some of the bigger ones.
00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:35.039
I'm not doing New York this year.
00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:36.639
I didn't do San Diego.
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:42.240
Uh didn't do any of the read pop shows because they they've all gotten very big and very expensive.
00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:54.960
And what I really like anyway is is connecting with fans and with readers and uh having a chance to to talk to people about books and and about what I do and what we all love.
00:14:55.200 --> 00:15:00.240
So it's it's fun to get to do shows like um you know, I did get to do a show in New York.
00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:08.080
I did Flame Con a few weeks back, which is all a big LGBTQ convenor or con centered convention.
00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:11.600
So that's that's a lot of fun because people at that are very enthusiastic.
00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:27.840
There's a lot of over-the-top costumes, there's a lot of like it's a really fun show to be at and to sort of fellowship with uh people who are excited about you know what we're doing and who are in a lot of cases creating you know amazing stuff themselves.
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:29.200
That's a really fun one.
00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:59.200
I just did uh as we're talking, I just came back from BCAF, which is the Boise Comics Arts Festival, which is one of like my favorite subgenres of of festivals and conventions and everything, which is ones run by librarians uh who are all amazing people, always very excited to talk about books, and very excited to like dive in and ask questions and um are out there championing books and and fighting against book bands every day.
00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:06.399
Uh while I'm you know sitting at home and in the dark typing away on my computer, they're out there actually getting my books to people.
00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:09.440
And that's it's super that's just a lovely show.
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:25.279
Boise is a nice little town, got to go see hot air balloons while I was there and have just uh a wonderful, yeah, wonderful weekend there, and I'm getting ready to do SPX up in Maryland, which is always lovely because it is such a comic-centered convention.
00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:27.440
It's one I always recommend to people.
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:44.639
It's not big on sort of the Big Two or or a lot of what we consider mainstream comics, but it's really nice in that everybody that's there has comics, they they make comics rather than a lot of walls of prints of you know Batman's head.
00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:53.440
Um it's people who are doing their own often very weird stuff, but it's the the weird stuff that's in their weird little hearts.
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.559
Are you doing Baltimore Comic Con this year by any chance?
00:16:56.799 --> 00:16:57.600
Uh I'm not.
00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:04.559
I did I did Baltimore a couple years ago, but I'll be pretty close in SPX, which is in Bethesda, right down the road.
00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.839
Yeah, it's uh Baltimore is one of my favorite cons to go to.
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.480
It's it's one of the only ones I've ever been to more than once.
00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:16.799
I I like that one because it's very much a it's comics focused instead of like other media and stuff.
00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:18.559
They usually have a lot of good panels.
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:41.759
Um it's very similar in my experience to HeroesCon, which is in Charlotte, North Carolina, uh, which is relatively close to me, and I I tend to do most years, which is like it's a really it's a really big, really comics-focused, uh, much more big two stuff than say an SPX, but you know, the big guests are people who are working on comics, people like John Ramita Jr.
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:48.240
and people like Scott Snyder, rather than having actors and rock stars and everybody else there.
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:53.200
Yeah, that that's what you go to a con for is to you know to meet writers, artists.
00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:55.680
That that's that's what I would want to go to a con for.
00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:59.119
And um yeah, I just I would like to go to more.
00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:05.279
Just I live in the middle of upstate New York, and New York City is like a five-hour drive for me.
00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:10.000
So we're we're I'm like right at the spot where there's no easy way to get to New York City.
00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:13.279
So and could you say a little bit more about Flame Con?
00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:19.119
Because I know that one is growing in huge popularity, uh, and it's very LGBTQ focused.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:23.200
And I the stuff I saw out of that one this year, it was like the most exciting.
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:29.680
So that one that one is very comic focused, more than uh it's on that same level as we would say.
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:45.519
Um yeah, it's for people who've been in the past, I think it started out very comics focused and it grew very fast, and they had a lot of uh folks who weren't necessarily in in comics getting in and doing you know, dealing and and prints and stuff like that.
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:57.680
I think they made a real attempt this year to to jury it a little bit and and make sure that it had a lot of comics people uh you know tabling and and talking about comics in there.
00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:00.640
Um they had a change of a venue this year as well.
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:09.039
So if people have been before, the previous venue was uh sort of dark and loud and cramped.
00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:11.920
Um whereas this one they they changed venues.
00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:14.319
We're right basically on Broadway now.
00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:17.359
Um in a yeah, in a hotel there.
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:26.319
We were right across uh the walkway from the theater where they were doing the uh Stranger Things uh Broadway play right now.
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:28.000
Um what?
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:35.279
Yeah, there's a uh a Stranger Things prequel play on Broadway currently, who is right next to us.
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:39.599
But is it just the kids hanging out playing DD and reading comics?
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:55.039
I think I haven't seen it, but I think it's like dealing with some of the like more metaphysical and terror-based stuff prior to the involvement of the you know kids from the the show.
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:58.880
So I'm I'm not a hundred percent on on what exactly the plot is.
00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:13.039
But uh yeah, FlameCon is it has this big sort of LGBTQIA focus, and it has a lot of like folks who are from you know comics and animation and stuff like that who are don't necessarily make it out to a lot of shows.
00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:46.160
They put a big emphasis on bringing out people who you know don't always go to the New York Comic-Cons or even the Heroes Cons for that matter, and really having the sort of like representation and uh a very different kind of like mood and attitude toward the con than strictly uh people running in and you know getting all their signatures and having their books authenticated by you know whatever authority, it's much more like getting in there and then being excited about finding new stuff and meeting creators who you don't get to meet at every other show.
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:47.279
Yeah, definitely.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:52.880
Alright, so I'd like to get back to the books we're talking about a little bit today, or we'll just gonna keep talking about cons.
00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:57.359
But uh, so now these are actual graphic novels that you have put out.
00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:58.400
These weren't singles.
00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:00.799
Was there any um thought in doing a graph?
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:04.400
Like what was the thought process of a graphic novel over singles?
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:08.240
Was that a Maverick choice or these are both by Maverick, aren't they?
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:12.079
Uh no, Dog Knight is um through McMillan.
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:14.880
It's uh Bible and Friends, which is an imprint of McMillan.
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.319
But I I think it's the reasoning is similar.
00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:26.480
I think uh the direct market is not always particularly friendly to younger books, uh, especially not to romance books.
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:39.440
I think there are a lot of uh comic stores that don't necessarily know what to do with them, they don't have anywhere to put them, even if they they do have interest in them, they don't necessarily have an ongoing fan base that's coming in looking for this stuff.
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:53.279
So it's much more, I think, book market friendly, and it it cuts out some of the need to, you know, do 20 pages with a cliffhanger and spreads and and things like that that are I think common in in single issue comics.
00:21:53.519 --> 00:22:12.640
Yeah, I think for you know, having done Princeless in single issues for for years and years, I I I could say that that's often a a more difficult thing than uh than I think people would realize because yeah, reaching that middle grade's audience, they're not always in the comic stores looking for single issues.
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:19.440
They're not necessarily um reading comics that way, if if they are reading them in in single issue format at all.
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:24.000
Uh a lot of them are reading it online or even through their library.
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:34.720
Um they're used to the format of something like a like a manga in a lot of ways where it's like you know, it drops a few pages at a time online and then eventually there's a collected version that they can go get.
00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:43.920
Um so it was I think sort of a natural choice with these to go uh graphic novel and and launch sort of into that book market and the comic book market at the same time.
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:48.319
Uh Maverick doesn't do too many single issue books.
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:59.839
Uh you know, they're there's sort of big brother Mad Cave does a lot more adult stuff and they do single issues on a lot of their things, but uh they're a little hard to maintain for YA and middle grades.
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:00.960
Makes sense, yeah.
00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:10.480
I've uh recently been getting into like Maverick and their or uh Mad Cave and their other imprints in the past couple years, and it's really impressive just the body of work that they put out.
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:35.680
Like they've got uh what in a manga imprint, the YA imprint, and then uh it seems like um their middle grades uh thing, and that they do School for Extraterrestrial Girls with me as well, but they have a lot of other books that are are both new and original stuff, but also they translate a lot of international, uh, you know, all ages or kids books.
00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:53.839
Get you see a lot of like Italian and and Spanish comics that make their way through paper cuts and they they do uh translations of those, and then on top of that, yeah, a lot of fun kids stuff, the occasional like Disney book, um and you know, other other stuff that the kids would be into.
00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:57.519
I know they've done in the past like Geronimo Stilton and stuff like that.
00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:02.720
Uh since you brought up School for Extraterrestrial Girls, uh can we chat about that for a little bit?
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:03.680
Absolutely.
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:07.519
So, what was some of the influences in that book?
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:11.599
I I'm assuming X-Men to some degree, or am I just off base there?
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:14.400
Oh no, definitely, definitely some X-Men.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:43.279
Um, I think part of part of that is I I wanted to get sort of an X-Men feel to it of having these kids who didn't necessarily know they were part of this world or are dealing with identity questions in in this larger scope of things, but also a little like there are certain popular uh sci-fi and fantasy school books that maybe have more attention and more uh love than they deserve out there.
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:50.160
Um and it are not always as as caring to the people who've cared about them in the past as they should be.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:25:18.960
So I'm always like interested in finding news stories, whether they're mine or other people's, to sort of fill some of that gap of of you know kids finding out mysteries from their past, figuring out who they are through uh a variety of different means, and and the idea of uh doing that in a school full of full of weirdos like yourself, uh like the X-Men, sometimes is um is very appealing to me.
00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:31.680
Uh, and it it's so fun to get to sort of have this whole background cast full of weirdos that pop in and out and uh might you know might become major characters if if we get attached to them or might just you know float on through.
00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:55.839
But lots of Jamie's designed lots of different types of aliens for that school, and it's really fun to sort of play on that edge of sci-fi in fantasy for me, where you know, we have a character who is herself a a lizard person, but she's rooming with you know somebody who is a fairy and somebody who is a sort of extraterrestrial horror, and then you know, occasionally a big orange cat girl.
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:58.960
I I really enjoyed School for Extraterrestrial Girls.
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:08.559
I think I shotgunned all three of them in a weekend, and uh the whole time I was thinking, you know, this is a good replacement for some of those other books we talked about.
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:12.559
And uh I don't know if you're familiar with the book Deadly Class by any chance.
00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:13.279
Yeah.
00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:20.319
It's not like I could just well, now I could, but if my nephew were still younger, I couldn't just hand him that book.
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:23.759
I could say, no, here's School for Extraterrestrial Girls.
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:35.839
My little punk nephew loved Princeless when he was like five, so he's 18 now, so um, but yeah, so uh is School for Extraterrestrial Girls 3 already out, or is that still coming?
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:37.039
Is that coming out as well?
00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:38.240
That came out in May.
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:39.839
Um that did come in May, okay.
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:44.000
That is out now, and that uh wraps up our trilogy here.
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:55.119
Uh I know both Jamie and I are interested in doing more stuff with that, but this sort of wraps up the story that we've been telling of uh you know Tara and Masako's first year in this school.
00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:11.279
It takes c takes place over summer break, but they they get sort of not to be too spoilery, but they get drafted to summer school and have to deal with some very, very serious issues going on uh around Earth, not so much as on Earth.
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:19.680
Yeah, I the thing with that world is I think you have it set up so even if this trilogy is done, you have a lot of room to play in there.
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:28.880
And I mean, what Chris Chris Claremont wrote X-Men for what 20 years or something, you you can you can squeeze out some more stories, and I think it'll be natural.
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:31.680
And I I would definitely look forward to more from that world.
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:32.079
Yeah.
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:37.920
To be honest, um navigating with you has probably been my favorite thing that I've read from you.
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:43.599
Oh wow, yeah, it I really enjoy slice of life stories.
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:48.960
Uh I mean, I was never a teen girl, but it these characters are really easy to connect with.
00:27:49.119 --> 00:28:00.160
And the one thing I was immediately drawn to is you as you put it, several of the characters had you know disabilities, and ever since we lost Oracle, we don't really have many characters like that.
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:04.640
Like uh, and I I'd actually forgotten about the character you mentioned in Wasp.
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:05.599
Ah, apologies.
00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:09.519
I think I only got about halfway through that, and then you you tore it my heartstrings too hard.
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:10.799
I just had to take a break.
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:13.200
You you know exactly what I'm talking about, too.
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:14.000
Oh yeah.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:34.160
I I was actually I was just talking about that uh that series this past weekend, they were uh on a panel asking if I had ever had to change anything that was in a book, and I was I was talking about to to Marvel's credit, they they kept almost everything from you know that section.
00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:44.480
Uh Disney just asked me to change some wording on some things, uh, because there's certain there's certain words involving mental health uh that they are less comfortable with.
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:45.839
Yeah, I can imagine.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:47.759
From a legal standpoint.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:29:02.160
Um But yeah, to their very much to their credit, you know, we were able to tell of what I think is a very important story about mental health and and mental illness, um and the the ways that it affects even superheroes in the world.
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.759
Yeah, and there's a lot of important messaging in your book.
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:07.519
I in in honestly all of your books.
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.200
You how do you choose the topics of what you're writing about?
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:16.880
Do you do themes first or do you have stories first and try to move the themes into the stories?
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:19.119
Because uh they fit very well together.
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:20.960
I'm just curious how you go about that.
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:23.599
It's it's different, I think, in a lot of cases.
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:32.079
I mean, obviously with Marvel or with uh to some extent with navigating with you, there's some stuff there already.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:43.440
Um you know, for navigating with you, they really uh Mad Cave Maverick really wanted to do a romance book based around fandom and based around manga.
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:54.720
And um I sort of like you know took that very short stump of an idea and was like, alright, well, if we do this, I would want it to be a queer romance story.
00:29:54.880 --> 00:30:07.279
I want to uh I wanted to set it in because I wanted them both to be coming from from different places uh and and both be sort of on on the back foot as far as figuring out where they fit in.
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:19.759
And I I thought that Durham was actually a really great place for that because we have somebody coming from Florida and somebody coming from New York, and both of those places are very different from North Carolina, but also even more different from each other.
00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:33.119
So throwing those together uh in Durham made a lot of sense to me, and then you know, I had all these things that are are leftovers of things that are important to me that I'm always thinking about and working on in there.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:40.240
Um, and that you know, I like I said I wanted to be a queer romance, I wanted to have a disabled character in that lead spot.
00:30:40.319 --> 00:31:05.920
I wanted to have two characters of color as the the romance, because so often I think books that are pitched at a mainstream audience but have a character of color, they're like, oh well, that romance is with a white person so that it's more digestible to you know what they they think the larger audience for stuff is, rather than you know having care having two characters of color in this story.
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:29.839
But I still wanted to have some diversity around that and and share some of the like diversity that's in in my real life out there in the world, because I think you know I I can't speak for other people, but the the whiteness of a lot of you know comics historically, especially in the mainstream, is not even as a a white guy, it's not actually indicative of my life.
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.519
Um it's not just it's not just white people 24-7.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:49.200
Um so yeah, I I remember talking about how, you know, alright, well, don't you you just write whoever comes naturally to you, but then you end up with, you know, the Justice League or the Avengers, and you end up with a very substantially white group of people.
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:52.960
Um unfortunately and for for some folks.
00:31:53.119 --> 00:32:26.640
Um But yeah, I I think that's my a lot of times my biggest thing is is getting sort of characters down first, having a very like vague idea of what I want the story to be or what kind of story I want to tell, and figuring out a little bit about what the characters are that would be in that story, and then building up those characters to be real and complex and and sometimes difficult people uh to f to fit into this world and or not fit into this world as it may be.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:37.839
But I I think characters are the the biggest thing for me, even if I'm starting with plot, a lot of the times once I figure out who the characters are, they end up reshaping the plot around them.
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:45.920
Do you use any specific uh writing methods for your plot, like story circle, hero's journey, or save the cat, anything like that?
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.759
No, I am a I'm a bad I'm a bad creative writing student.
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:51.039
Um No, no, you're not.
00:32:51.119 --> 00:33:06.880
You're a good one because that's what I did, and I Yeah, I I find you know, a lot of those things I think are what I mean, especially like Hero's Journey, that's taken from a history of like so many stories are like this, right?
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:14.720
There are many good stories that have this shape, and so that is then a way to learn, like that is what those other stories do.
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.440
But that is not always the shape of a a story in real life.
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:33.440
So um you know, I I think once you get too tied up in things like that, sometimes they they serve sort of an opposite purpose of what they're supposed to do, which is is help you to move forward and tell a story.
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:40.480
I think it is useful to occasionally stop and think about what is it that my characters want?
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:41.440
What are they after?
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:43.839
Why are they saying the things they're saying?
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:47.920
Why um why are they making the decisions they're making?
00:33:48.000 --> 00:34:04.000
Because occasionally you'll find yourself just uh having your characters do something because it feels dramatic and it feels punchy, and then you'll you'll not be able to figure out what it is that comes next because you've already had them do something and it doesn't doesn't feel at all natural to them.
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:05.279
So definitely.
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:20.320
Yeah, so I think building out of I mean keeping character in mind and and you know figuring out your journey but not necessarily feeling like you have to stick to one method or another to uh you know to tell that story.
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:26.719
I think those can be nice little guidelines, but yep, you don't you don't always want everything to look the same.
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:40.960
No, I I a hundred percent agree where I I have a writer friend who I get into this argument with probably three times a week, where he says he doesn't like a story because it doesn't follow his traditional storytelling structure.
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:50.559
And my argument that is who cares if if it's a good story, if it's a good experience, what does it matter if it doesn't have a tradition if it has a traditional three-act structure?
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:51.280
Yeah.
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:54.000
And and I'm not saying your writing doesn't.
00:34:54.159 --> 00:35:02.880
Uh the one thing I can say about almost everything I've read from you, I can tell the solid beginning, the middle point, and the ending.
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:11.840
And I think the focus on the middle the midpoint of a story is often a lot more important than your three-act structure or whatever it is.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:16.880
And I I can't remember where I've heard this quote, and tell me if you agree or disagree.
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:20.559
A story's better when you can't tell when you're changing the act.
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:32.239
Yeah, I think I think a lot of times you, especially with films, you can very physically feel when the act is changing, when they're going into the next part of the story.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:46.800
And my my goal is always to like have people so caught up and caring so much about the characters in the story that they're not thinking about story structure, they're not thinking about you know what comes next.
00:35:46.960 --> 00:36:07.760
Um, because I I find that personally, somebody who's who's read a lot of books and seen a lot of movies and written a lot of stories, that there'll be times that I'll be watching a movie with other people, and I'll be like, oh, and this is the part where this happens, or I can say a thing just as the character is saying it, because I know what that next line is.
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:14.880
Um and as fun as a party trick as that is, uh, I much prefer to be surprised.
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:24.800
Um not in so much as uh where it doesn't make sense or it doesn't work, but to you know, have a moment where like I don't know what's coming next.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:26.320
I don't know what they're gonna do.
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:29.599
Um, those are always nice moments for me.
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:41.760
Um I I regularly think about one of my favorite TV shows when it was on The Good Place, where it was like, all right, like this is I know, you know, I know what they're trying to do.
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:44.159
So obviously this is the arc for the whole season, right?
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:54.639
Because we're we gotta get to that point by the end of the season, and they'd blow past it the second episode and keep going on to the next thing and be like, oh wow, I I didn't expect to be here yet.
00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:57.679
I didn't know I don't know what's coming next.
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:06.719
I you know thought I had a whole like outline of all the beats that they were gonna hit to get there, but they'd just they'd blow right past that shark and keep going.
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:16.639
And that's that's always like such a great, such a preferable moment to me to like have have a moment where it's like, oh I I didn't know that was about to happen.
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:17.840
I didn't see that coming.
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:34.719
I think that's in a lot of cases why I I love fiction that's driven by queer people who uh who's you know, lives are are non-traditional in a lot of cases who are you know their lives have not been structured by the the way that they necessarily expected it to, and their their fiction is also not.
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:49.679
I always like I I was saying the other day I went and saw uh Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma, which is a movie that references a lot of other movies, but I had no idea what was coming next in it, and was always like on my toes.
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:57.920
I really like Jane Schoenburn as a director because like even though I feel like I sometimes know what she's after, I do not where know where she's going.
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:01.760
I haven't seen that yet, but that is on my watch list very soon.
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:03.039
Is that still in theaters?
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:11.920
Yeah, if if probably in New York you can find it around there, but it was very very brief blowthrough of North Carolina.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:17.599
Um, but yeah, if if you haven't seen that, but also their previous film, I saw the TV glow.
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:19.679
Oh, that was really good, yeah.
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:22.719
Yeah, that was one that just kind of knocked me out.
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:32.239
Um watching it and just I remember watching it and the movie ending and just sitting there watching the credits and just to myself with nobody else around, going, damn.
00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:34.559
Okay.
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:38.400
Uh just you know, it it it got me.
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:49.360
It it really emotionally hit me in the gut, and I think was one of those that like I did not know where it was going at any point and was couldn't have been crazier about how it went.
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:53.440
So you you uh I you're obviously a fan of horror.
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:55.679
Uh what's coming up on Progressively Horrified?
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:56.960
Is that something you can talk about?
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:05.039
Yeah, um, so uh I made a horrible decision, which is we always do themed stuff for October.
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:07.119
And yeah, we've we've done a bunch of different themes.
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:13.519
We did one that was all about sort of like classic slashers, we did one that was all about sci-fi horror.
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:25.679
Uh this this year I decided there were several movies that like we frequently reference because we hate them, um, but we've never covered on the show.
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:43.840
So um, since our our show is is often sort of not just progressive, but like positively aimed, I was like, let's just take October to like actually watch and talk about these movies that we uh absolutely hate.
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:52.400
So the theme of of the movies we've watched for October, which we've already recorded these episodes, uh, has been uh fuck this movie.
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:53.199
Alright.
00:39:53.840 --> 00:40:06.320
Yeah, so I I I brought a couple and uh Emily and uh Ben each brought one, but uh because of this, I was uh forced to uh watch the Tom Cruise Mummy for the first time.
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:09.360
Oh dear god Ben forced that one on me.
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:25.920
I had not since I must have been like 15 or 16 when I saw some of uh John Carpenter's Vampires for the first time, and so Emily brought that one, if if you're not familiar with uh the role of James Woods as action hero.
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:27.599
Jesus Christ.
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:29.519
It's a very bad film.
00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:33.360
Uh it's a bad movie, it's just it oh yeah.
00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:43.360
I um I brought Lights Out, which is um a David Sandberg movie from the early 2000s, uh not one.
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:45.280
What's terrible about it?
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:47.840
So it's been a while, so forgive me.
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:56.079
So, like, just from a a pitch standpoint, it's very much like what if horror was new metal?
00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:02.000
But on top of that, not to ruin this for anybody because it is already ruined, it's a terrible movie.
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:18.960
Um but the the concept of this movie is that this these kids' mom had a friend when she was in a mental institution as a kid who had some sort of allergy to light, but also had some sort of weird psychic powers.
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:26.320
And this kid was treated for this allergy to light by the scientists putting a lot of very bright light on her.
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:28.239
Uh, and so she disappeared.
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:33.679
But she still sort of is around because she's attached to the mom's brain.
00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:59.599
So in the dark, this character pops up and and attacks people, and she's a very obvious and heavy-handed metaphor for mental illness, which they they really thought they were doing something which, like, it's I mean, I wouldn't say it's great, but it's it's staying with it right up until the point that at the end of the movie, the only solution for her to save her kids from this thing is to shoot herself in the head.
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:09.199
A lot letting you letting you know the important theme of this movie is that the only way to save your kids from your own mental illness is to kill yourself.
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:16.239
Um, which is maybe, I'm gonna go out there and say, not a great theme for a film, uh, horror or otherwise.
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:18.480
No, no, not not really.
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:50.559
And it also has this repeated sort of underlying thing of one of the kids, there's she has an older daughter who is the main character of this, and that daughter is repeatedly like given grief and being told she's wrong for getting out of that house where a ghost that cuts people up in the darkness was trying to murder her because like she's responsible for her own mother's mental health, even at the cost of her own health, um, which I think is also not a positive message.
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:51.519
I didn't know.
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:59.599
I watched this movie about five or six years ago while riding the exercise bike, so it was background noise to me.
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:06.079
And remember you told me you do like to think deep about something, but I just wasn't thinking when I saw this movie.
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:14.320
So it was it was literally just the the first time I was watching it, I had I think just started this podcast, and I was like, oh, I get it.
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:19.679
It's a it's a very like the meme about elevated horror, right?
00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:26.400
Like, oh it's it's elevated horror is like horror except for the Dracula is that his dad is dead, right?
00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:37.679
Like that's that's the meme, and the like, oh, this is about mental health very obviously, and then that it ends with the solution to mental illness being killing yourself.
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:41.679
I was like, no, that's that's wrong.
00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:46.239
No, no, no, it's actually it's Suicide Prevention Month, everybody.
00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:47.199
Uh 988.
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:49.360
Just please use that number if needed.
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:51.280
Yeah, don't listen to rights out.
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:51.760
It's wrong.
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:59.760
Which by the way, uh I really applaud FUP for putting the resources in the back of uh I think it was Navigating With You One when you get to the end of the book.
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:01.920
No no spoilers here.
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:08.000
It's all good LGBTQIA plus resources, the Trevor Project, suicide prevention, stuff like that.
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:09.199
It's just good to see that.
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:30.639
So yeah, well, that is very much to credit my my editor, Lauren Heitzusan, um was very adamant and and serious about putting that stuff in there and making sure that you know people had the resources that they needed, which um yeah, is is you don't always know what you can get a publisher to put in uh a book like that.
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:32.719
But that was that was lovely.
00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:42.960
I'm always we try to, whenever we're doing stories that involve mental health and things like that, to have uh some sort of you know resources in there.
00:44:43.039 --> 00:45:08.079
Because I uh I ended up doing the same thing with Unstoppable Wasp just because we were dealing with a very heavy mental health issue where you know in instead of our our usual interviewing a physicist or something like that, interviewed a a psychologist about bipolar disorder and how to to know if you are dealing with bipolar disorder and how uh who you can reach out to if you were a friend or are dealing with these things.
00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:10.880
Um important to me.
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:18.880
But um yeah, it's always it's always good to have that stuff out there when you can and have a publisher and editor that have your back on those things.
00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:22.639
It's good that you're getting the support, it's good that you're doing what you do.
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:29.760
It's just I I wish there were more people talking about the kind of things that you're talking about in your books and telling stories like this.
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:36.480
And there probably are, and I just don't know about them, but I'm I'm just happy we have guys like you doing this.
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:37.280
Thank you.
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:44.880
We vicariously answered uh or you know, passively answered half the questions I wanted to ask, but uh I do have a couple more fun ones for you.
00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:51.360
Um so we we concluded the trilogy of extraterrestrial girls, we've got dog night coming up.
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:56.480
Um, so the next book in the navigating for you, are we gonna go straight horror?
00:45:56.559 --> 00:46:01.920
Like, are we gonna have the girls get into Junji Ito or you know, uh, you know, something like that?
00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:03.440
What's what's the plan there?
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:04.880
I mean, that would be fun.
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:07.840
I haven't done anything like that with them yet.
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:10.960
Uh, I would love to do more stuff in this world.
00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:21.840
I think, you know, it's it would be very easy for this second book to be the conclusion to this series, but I think the same was true of the first one.
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:33.039
Um and so, you know, it's it's uh I think it's a difficult art to tell a story that feels like a full story, but also leaves people wanting to follow those characters more.
00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:41.840
And that's I always want to write about, you know, not just uh Nisha and Gabby, but a lot of the other characters that we meet in this this volume.
00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:44.079
There's a much larger cast than the first one.
00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:46.239
And I would I would love to get more into them.
00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:52.960
Specifically, uh you know, both of their close counterparts in this story.
00:46:53.199 --> 00:47:10.320
Both Noli, who is uh Nisha's new friend, and uh Carrie, who is Gabby's old friend in new context, both like horror, it's both part of their uh their characters that they are into horror stuff.
00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:14.800
Noli also likes pro wrestling, which um I got that one.
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:26.719
Yeah, I I I got to steal a bit of my uh own nostalgia for Deadlock Pro Wrestling, which used to be our local indie pro wrestling show here.
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:27.519
That's awesome.
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:33.280
That uh yeah, used to used to come to the Durham Armory, which is lovingly portrayed in the book.
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:39.360
Um but uh Deadlock unfortunately uh had their their final show last year.
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:46.480
Um but so many of their stars from that are out doing incredible things.
00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:59.039
Um I remember watching um Speedball Mike Bailey and uh Jake something, who is is now Jake Doyle uh in AEW, were tag team champions there at one point.
00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:00.400
Um that's awesome.
00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:15.199
Yeah, I you know it's I have a passionate love for especially AEW, but also like indie wrestling and and all the little all the weirdness that exists in in wrestling, all the storytelling that they do.
00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:21.440
I'm less of a fan of of the other company and what they do that doesn't involve much wrestling.
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:36.079
Um but like I I love I love the weird guys, the little guys, the uh Eddie Kingstons of the world, the guys that don't necessarily fit the mold of of what a uh what a sports entertainer looks like.
00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:39.519
So you saw that doc too, huh?
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:45.920
Yeah, uh my Instagram, I don't know how this happened, but I mean I was an attitude era kid.
00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:47.760
Um I'm 38, so exactly.
00:48:47.840 --> 00:49:02.320
I basically I watched it wrestling from the start to the end of the attitude era, and then I realized, you know, I think I'm just done with wrestling because all my friends stopped, and it just lined up with one of John Cena's first shows was the last time I watched wrestling.
00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:08.159
It came to uh the Wilkes Bear Arena, that's where I grew up, and it was one of his first shows as I saw it.
00:49:08.239 --> 00:49:15.360
And just lately, the the nostalgia clips have been coming up where you see all the cool stuff and made me realize, oh, I really like Jeff Hardy.
00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:27.039
I wonder if anybody is doing what Jeff Hardy does, and then immediately a clip of Darby Allen doing his best uh Jeff Hardy impression comes up, and I'm like, oh, I kind of want to check out AEW now.
00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:30.400
Yeah, um, I am I'm a big fan of AEW.
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:37.840
I highly recommend if you want to drop in somewhere the uh all-in 2026, which just happened a couple weeks ago.
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:41.519
There's their big pay-per-view in in London in Wembley Arena.
00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:53.280
Um it features a whole lot of people in within a couple hours, and you get to see sort of what everybody's about on a very big uh stage and a very big scale.
00:49:53.440 --> 00:50:09.760
Um so yeah, I I love that there's a lot of the guys that were in DPW are are there now, and there's a lot of like I will say Jeff Hardy is I think had an outsized influence, uh a huge influence on the the next generation of guys.
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:16.639
Um both both in AEW in the indies and in uh a few people at the uh the other country.
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:18.480
The big guys are there as well.
00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:29.199
I think though the one the one guy that I will uh give props to over at the the big place is a guy named Javon Evans, who uh used to wrestle.
00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:31.199
He used to wrestle at DPW.
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:45.840
He is uh very, very tall, very long, uh acrobatic black wrestler who just like throws himself out of the ring, throws himself across the ring, does crazy stuff I've never seen anybody else do, has a uh a crazy leap on him.
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:48.800
Um but he's he's absolutely wonderful.
00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:52.480
He seems like a really nice guy from having met him at shows too.
00:50:52.639 --> 00:51:00.079
Um and if you're if you're into that stuff, uh also check out I think the the Rascals are in AEW now.
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:08.320
They um there's a a trio of uh high flyers, and uh they're they're pretty wonderful, they do a lot of cool stuff.
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:09.599
That's awesome.
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:18.079
I'm I'm like getting this close to like just having something to watch on Friday nights where if it's just me all alone, like I wouldn't mind watching this.
00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:31.760
It's uh Yeah, I mean it's you know AEW, their main show, Dynamite comes on on Wednesday nights, and they're they have Saturday nights, they do uh collision, but they're all on HBO Max these days.
00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:34.880
So if you have HBO Max, you can watch them whenever you want.
00:51:35.119 --> 00:51:40.400
Now, if AEW approached to be one of the writers, would that be something you'd ever be interested in doing?
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:41.360
Uh yeah.
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:43.199
Is that how AEW works?
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:44.239
I actually don't know.
00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:49.920
I mean they they have a much smaller staff, as I understand it, of people that write for their stuff.
00:51:50.079 --> 00:51:52.719
A lot of their guys do their own things.
00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:56.960
Uh sometimes to the good and sometimes to the ill.
00:51:57.119 --> 00:52:11.920
They you know don't necessarily have the same sort of pushing system of, you know, WWE can feel the like what the guy what the guys in charge are into, because they they push the same sorts of stories and the same sorts of guys all the time.
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:17.440
Um and I think AEW has has less of that, but also it has a little less structure.
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:39.280
So sometimes people who are maybe not the best on the microphone haven't had the experience uh as talkers themselves um have a little bit of a hard time catching up with people uh you know that still wrestle at AEW that have been doing this for a long time, like John Moxley or Chris Jericho, who can, you know, turn anything into a promo.
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:41.679
That's uh so you brought up Chris Jericho.
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:46.480
My cousin is actually I think he's friends with him to some degree.
00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:53.599
He has some weird metal band, and I think he was the guitar tech for I think it's called Fozzie or something.
00:52:53.679 --> 00:52:55.519
I they used to hang out or something.
00:52:55.760 --> 00:52:59.679
Um he was telling me all about it when I reconnected with him a couple years ago.
00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:00.000
Yeah.
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:03.679
They're they're actually all down in uh North Carolina and uh Charlotte?
00:53:03.760 --> 00:53:06.400
Yeah, the one that's on the closer to the Tennessee side.
00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:12.719
Yeah, I mean that's probably Charlotte is right there on the the border with North and South Carolina, it's where they do Heroes Count every year.
00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:21.679
Um it's about three hours from me, but yeah, they have a lot of they do a lot of pro wrestling there, and uh you know it's where Rick Flair's from.
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:26.400
So yeah, my mom actually met Ric Flair in like the 70s or something.
00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:27.039
Oh no.
00:53:27.679 --> 00:53:30.559
She always had this story where she she used to bartend.
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:38.800
Ric Flair came in one night and she wanted to get his autograph, but the the like the one of the other waiters said, Don't bother when he's eating steak.
00:53:39.039 --> 00:53:40.239
That sounds about right.
00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:41.599
He he was a weirdo.
00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:43.920
Is he still alive or wrestling?
00:53:44.079 --> 00:53:47.599
Because he was like 100 last time I saw him and he was still in the ring.
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:50.159
He is still alive, he is not wrestling anymore.
00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:52.800
He had his last match uh a couple years ago.
00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:54.239
Um that's amazing.
00:53:54.480 --> 00:54:02.960
But yeah, his his daughter, uh Charlotte, wrestles in uh in WWE has been a champion over there several times.
00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:08.159
And yeah, they're he's still sort of around, but he's pretty old these days.
00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:09.280
Yeah, he's gonna be a little bit more than a lot.
00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:17.599
It's a miracle that he lasted a miracle that he's lasted this long, considering the number of documented drugs that that man was on.
00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:22.960
I mean, there there's gotta be a Mick Jagger of wrestling, I suppose.
00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:25.199
Yeah, that's that's him.
00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:31.840
I mean, a lot of a lot of guys have come and gone that have put their bodies through a lot less than Rick Flair has.
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:33.280
Yeah.
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:45.199
Uh so I so we're gonna keep talking about pro wrestling if we if we don't like try to wrap up here, but uh I I did have one more question about the book before I want to turn things over to you.
00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:51.039
Um and this is more of just a commentary on your your writing, which just a recurring theme that I'm seeing.
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:58.719
I would say the main theme of navigating with you, both of them, it one of them was um communication.
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:03.039
And uh I'd say that rings true in a lot of your books.
00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:06.559
Like your characters have good, honest conversations.
00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:12.000
You see a lot of like good millennial parents, which is a good thing that exists, I guess.
00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:20.400
And did you study communication styles or any kind of attachment theory or you know millennial cringe meme culture culture for all this?
00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:23.679
So I live millennial cringe meme culture.
00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:38.719
Yeah, we're both millennials, so of course we Yeah, I I I would be lying if I said a lot of the the parent stuff isn't at least a little based on myself and my wife um and you know both navigating with UN in Dog Knight.
00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:43.760
But I I think it's communication is definitely a big thing for me.
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:59.440
Um I think I'm I'm a person who watches uh when I watch even like uh especially I guess uh reality television and like I get depressed by the like oh it's impossible for two people to communicate with each other.
00:55:59.599 --> 00:56:12.480
Like it's it's just so difficult for people to say what they need to say, even when you're watching on TV and you know, like, hey, it's very obvious what's going on with this, and that people in the situation just can't say it.
00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:16.719
Um, my wife and I have watched a lot of Love is Blind, if that does you anything.
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:43.760
Um and it it's one of those things that that gets me down because I I am a person who wants to understand other people, and I want to like I think it's one of the things about writing that's really cool is you get to get in other people's heads and and be a different kind of person and and tell stories from from different perspectives, which is something that I I always want to like know where other people are coming from and and try and understand what's what's going on with them.
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:56.800
I think as a you know, kid who who probably has a little bit of a little bit of ADHD and a little bit of other stuff, you know, going on with with my own head and being on sort of the ace spectrum as well.
00:56:56.880 --> 00:57:01.760
Like I'm always trying to figure out like what what are the other people that are thinking?
00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:31.039
And I I'm always I was telling my wife, I've got this like sort of recurring depressing thought of that like even it's I feel like it's impossible for for two people to even like communicate what the color orange is between the two of them, because you know, in in any case, you're going through a series of like nerves and synapsies and and all this stuff going on inside your eye and your brain that you can't really see and you don't really know what's happening.
00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:45.360
And you know, you can both identify something as being orange because somebody else told you, somebody else pointed at it and said, That is orange, that's what the color orange looks like, but you don't actually know if you and that other person are seeing the same thing, right?
00:57:45.679 --> 00:57:47.679
Especially since I'm colorblind, so yeah.
00:57:47.840 --> 00:57:50.079
Yeah, yeah, and that's yeah.
00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:54.400
I'm specifically like the red kind of colorblind where you can't see shades of red.
00:57:54.639 --> 00:57:56.719
So you have no idea what's going on with my shirt right now.
00:57:56.960 --> 00:58:01.280
I was gonna say, I'm guessing your shirt is some kind of red, but it's like fire engine red.
00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:04.159
I mixed up pink and white today.
00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:11.920
I we were at a boba tea restaurant or place with my my wife and I before they said, uh, I got a strawberry one, so get me the pink straw.
00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:14.239
And she grabs me like one that's red.
00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:16.960
I'm like, no, no, no, the pink straw, that's white, honey.
00:58:17.199 --> 00:58:35.119
Oh yeah, that's that's sort of like I think a recurring theme in my thoughts, and then the the transfers into the books of like trying to get this trying to understand other people, trying to understand yourself even um each other is always a a big thing for me.
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:39.119
Um both in you know when it works out and when it doesn't.
00:58:39.280 --> 00:58:57.679
I think, you know, uh other people listening to this will not have necessarily read Navigating with You Volume 2, but like it has a lot of I think the the theme of miscommunication and of not being able to tell people things that you need to is is something that uh definitely recurs in that quite a bit.
00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:05.440
And if you're listening to this, you should read Volume Navigating With You Volume 2, because it's it's very good, and I'll be ordering a copy.
00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:08.480
Oh, is uh extraterrestrial girls going back into print?
00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:11.599
You have a bookshop org or something.
00:59:11.679 --> 00:59:16.159
I I forget the name of the exact link, but I'm gonna add it to this to the show notes here.
00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:19.519
I think that was the only thing I couldn't pick up when I went to order some of your books.
00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:34.400
As I understand it, it is in print, but it's one of those like back-ordered things, so they have some at the warehouse, but you have to order it in order for it to go through the chain, as I understand it.
00:59:34.960 --> 00:59:35.920
Comics, got it.
00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:39.199
Yeah, comics supply chains in 2026.
00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:45.280
Um if there's a book coming out that you want, pre-order it through your local comic shop.
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:46.480
Just just do that.
00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:50.400
I've had big box retailers cancel my cancel my order.
00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:51.920
It's ridiculous.
00:59:52.239 --> 00:59:53.760
Yeah, that's yeah.
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:58.559
I would say, yeah, go if you uh if you have a local comic shop, go through them.
00:59:58.639 --> 01:00:12.000
If you don't, go through bookshop.org um because you can choose your local shop that you want to you know give part of the proceeds to of buying stuff from them rather than just buying from Amazon and supporting nobody.
01:00:12.079 --> 01:00:13.920
Uh nobody but Jeff Bezos.
01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:19.039
Um avoid popular online retailers if you can.
01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:20.559
If you can't, whatever.
01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:35.360
Yeah, but but I I have you were mentioning I have an affiliate page with Bookshop where I have a lot of my books posted there where people can order them through Bookshop and I get uh a kickback, as it were, from from Bookshop for recommending them.
01:00:35.519 --> 01:00:36.639
So that's nice.
01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:41.039
Yeah, it's uh that's something I hope more creators continue to do.
01:00:41.199 --> 01:00:47.199
I'd I I want my money to go to support you guys and not just I'm not even gonna say it.
01:00:47.360 --> 01:00:49.920
So yeah, I I appreciate that.
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:52.800
Uh you don't want to support Wonder Woman's people.
01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:55.440
Um yeah.
01:00:55.920 --> 01:01:10.800
So I'm I'm I'm excited about navigating with you volume two coming out because I I was really looking forward to sort of building out this world a bit and getting to I mean we revisit Durham a bit and then we get a uh you get to see a bit of Miami in there too.
01:01:11.039 --> 01:01:11.840
Did you have any?
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:20.000
I'm curious if as one of the first people I've I've talked to who's read it, uh do you have any favorites among our our new characters and stories in this?
01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:27.519
Um I the two well, the returning character from the first book, I really liked them and I really enjoyed the direction we went.
01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:30.079
I'm just trying not to be spoiler-y on that one.
01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:32.320
Uh is it Nweli or Noli?
01:01:32.719 --> 01:01:33.119
Noli.
01:01:33.599 --> 01:01:34.079
Noli.
01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:41.679
Um, I think they were my uh favorite character of all the characters put together from all the books.
01:01:41.840 --> 01:01:53.760
Uh, I I always tend to gravitate towards um generally not the main character, because like the uh she's in a way like kind of the guide character, like or the or the mentor in a way.
01:01:54.079 --> 01:02:00.320
And I just liked I I enjoy characters who are very competent, and she brought a big air of that.
01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:08.559
And uh I I think a lot of um Nisha's journey uh really is influenced by Noli.
01:02:09.119 --> 01:02:31.039
And the other thing that that I just found fun was just all the little dribs and drabs of just the stuff that I I know you like put into there with the anime stuff and the pro wrestling stuff, and just uh how much uh you when you first meet her, she's set up in a way where I really have to be careful how I say this.
01:02:31.360 --> 01:02:42.400
She seems unlikable at first, or like the first few pages, and then you realize no, this is just competency, uh assertiveness in a overall very positive way.
01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:49.920
And that that's a conversation I unfortunately have to have with a lot of my coworkers when it comes to female coworkers.
01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:53.920
Um, so I they they have been overall my favorite character.
01:02:54.159 --> 01:02:56.480
Yeah, I I really enjoyed writing Noli.
01:02:56.719 --> 01:03:10.719
Noli, I think, is very like both determined in the same way that Nisha is, but very direct about what it is that she wants and uh and what she's after in a way that Nisha doesn't seem to doesn't feel comfortable being in a lot of cases.
01:03:10.880 --> 01:03:19.840
Um and I I think it's I think her relationship with with Nisha and with the rest of that friend group is is really interesting to me.
01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:32.320
And it it's it's interesting when you're writing this many sort of you know, uh a cast which with the exception of like Gabby's uh Gabby's side of things is is all female.
01:03:32.480 --> 01:03:48.159
Um to have, you know, in a lot of cases they don't have a lot of space to uh define and differentiate themselves, but getting you know, getting in there and having you know these characters sort of set themselves apart pretty quickly, like Nolley does, I think.
01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:51.679
Um exercise.
01:03:51.840 --> 01:04:08.480
And uh Noli is is you know much more much more direct and I think in some ways sort of on that stereotypically mean girl spectrum of you know of you know she she doesn't really care about other people's feelings so much.
01:04:08.719 --> 01:04:17.599
She's not mean, no, but like she cares about her goals, her people around her, but she's not a jerk about it.
01:04:17.760 --> 01:04:20.239
She's assertive and not mean.
01:04:20.320 --> 01:04:22.000
I it's the best way I could put it.
01:04:22.239 --> 01:04:23.280
Yeah, absolutely.
01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:26.960
And and uh it's I think it's fascinating.
01:04:27.039 --> 01:04:34.559
I I don't think it's spoiling anything to say that that Noli is is dealing with a disability that is new to her.
01:04:34.719 --> 01:05:24.639
Um and that is a way in which you know Nisha is sort of uh a guide and help to her, somebody who has dealt with having a disability their whole life and and knowing what that's like and how people will treat them, and and having sort of gotten numb to it in some ways, whereas uh you know, Nully, while she is so confident and so sure of herself and so forthright about what she wants, this moment, these moments of sort of like people underestimating her, or you know, as it happens in one case in this story, telling her how brave she is for you know for having a disability and and not uh covering it up, not you know, just just being alive with a disability is you know is not something she knows how to handle yet, and is is going through it, as it were.
01:05:25.199 --> 01:05:28.639
Alright, Jeremy, we have come up past the hour mark.
01:05:28.880 --> 01:05:31.280
I want to turn the mic over to you, sir.
01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:37.360
I want you to make your final pitch, crack your knuckles, get ready, do some jumping jacks if you gotta do that.
01:05:37.519 --> 01:05:44.960
So make your final pitch for all your books, but specifically Navigating with You Volume 2 and Dog Knight and all the good stuff.
01:05:45.199 --> 01:05:46.239
Floor is yours, sir.
01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:59.840
Yeah, uh, so I'll start with the Dog Knight, uh, since that is not currently coming out, but is is immediately available right now, but is also uh dealing with a ban in uh schools and libraries.
01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:01.280
Syntaxis.
01:06:01.519 --> 01:06:07.679
It has been identified as a book that they wish to ban for no stated reason.
01:06:08.079 --> 01:06:13.360
The only one that one can imagine is that it features a lead character who is non-binary.
01:06:14.320 --> 01:06:19.039
But they aren't willing to say why they find this book problematic and dangerous.
01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:23.199
The thing about this is this book does is a middle grades book.
01:06:23.280 --> 01:06:25.519
It does not have sex or violence.
01:06:25.679 --> 01:06:52.719
It doesn't have any anything that you could conceivably think is a danger to children, other than if you do not want those children to feel that they are represented and welcome in the world and to find comfort in meeting a character who is like them, or even meeting a character who is like somebody else in their life that they might be able to relate this to and help them understand other people better.
01:06:53.519 --> 01:06:59.360
It is a book about magical talking dogs and their friend who is a non-binary human.
01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:03.840
And for some reason, some people find that very difficult to deal with.
01:07:04.400 --> 01:07:20.480
So I think this is a book that I would really appreciate people's support on, but I think especially is a great book to get for a young person in your life, whether they are dealing with gender issues themselves or know people who are, or just might know people who are.
01:07:20.639 --> 01:07:31.519
If they're just reading a book and want to uh know the world better and to better understand other people, I think this is a great book to put into their hands and to help them learn about people.
01:07:31.599 --> 01:07:38.079
While also having a fun time reading a uh fantasy story about talking magical dogs.
01:07:38.239 --> 01:07:41.280
So um definitely go check out Dog Knight.
01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:55.199
Now, if you are looking for something for yourself or somebody that is in the YA category or is reading in the YA category, um navigating with you, uh now we have, you know, this will be my our second book of this coming out.
01:07:55.360 --> 01:07:57.599
It is a Stonewall honored book.
01:07:57.679 --> 01:08:06.400
It was nominated for multiple awards this last year, including uh a Ringo and uh and a Harvey as well.
01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:11.440
Uh, you know, it was awarded by the Virginia Library Association for Diversity and Graphic Novels.
01:08:11.599 --> 01:08:54.880
Um, it features you know characters who are uh uh of various various ethnicities of various genders and uh sexualities, and it features characters with with disabilities, both physical and psychological, they are dealing with, and I think is is something that represents a lot of people by not trying to represent everybody, but giving you know people two two really uh some two really complicated characters who I I think are very real people in that respect, and I think a lot of times that's what people react to more than characters who are there and meant to represent somebody, who are meant to represent everybody.
01:08:55.039 --> 01:09:18.079
Um but if you like if you like uh Queer Romance, if you like uh Yuri books, if you like uh specifically books about fandom and about connecting through the things that you love, uh both of these books have that running as a theme within them of of how these two girls connect and how they continue to connect over distance.
01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:25.600
Um, you know, we have bits of the manga they're reading in there, so you get to follow along and be part of this story with them.
01:09:25.760 --> 01:09:48.000
And the big difference, I think, with volume two is that they are uh having anime dates, so they are watching this anime together over, you know, uh over the internet and enjoying it together in the way that I know a lot of uh people in fandom do, whether it's a romantic date or just uh uh just sharing their love for a thing that they they love together.
01:09:48.239 --> 01:09:53.439
So it's it's big and gay and messy and complicated, um, but isn't life.
01:09:53.680 --> 01:09:59.119
Uh so um if if that sounds like it's up your alley, love for you to check it out.
01:09:59.279 --> 01:10:03.199
The first one is out right now, so you can go pick it up at your store or order it online.
01:10:03.520 --> 01:10:08.479
The second one is available for pre-order and will be out uh November 24th, I believe.
01:10:08.640 --> 01:10:25.199
Um, and is is available through bookshop.org or your local comic book stores should be able to order it uh because it is a uh a Maverick book, which means it's through Mad Cave, so it's available to all direct market comic book shops as well as bookstores.
01:10:25.359 --> 01:10:31.920
So wherever you frequent whatever bookstore or comic book shop you wanna uh you want to support, I would check them out through there.
01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:44.159
If you can't find one, check out bookshop.org and uh order it through there and make sure you uh support great uh graphic novels and and LGBTQ storytelling in there.
01:10:44.399 --> 01:10:47.119
Well, I'm gonna give you a resounding hell yeah.
01:10:47.359 --> 01:10:47.840
Thank you.
01:10:48.079 --> 01:10:48.319
All right.
01:10:48.399 --> 01:10:51.520
Do you have uh anything else you want to shout out before we wrap up?
01:10:51.840 --> 01:10:53.039
Progressively horrified.
01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:56.880
Any any oh, any word on the uh Zoop campaign where when those books are coming out?
01:10:56.960 --> 01:10:58.960
I congrats on getting funded for that, by the way.
01:10:59.199 --> 01:10:59.840
Oh, thank you.
01:11:00.000 --> 01:11:02.560
Yeah, I I would have loved for those to have already been out.
01:11:02.640 --> 01:11:16.159
Unfortunately, uh, I guess Zoop has changed printers within the last uh handful of months, and the printers that we had had a little bit of of difficulty understanding what we were going for with the flip book and everything.
01:11:16.319 --> 01:11:24.000
We seem to have sorted all of that out, so I'm hoping that I will have news that things are are printed and ready to go in the near future.
01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:27.359
Um I my hope is to get that out soon.
01:11:27.920 --> 01:11:35.760
I would have loved to have already had it out um and have gone back and forth with uh with Zoop and with the printers about getting all of that done.
01:11:35.920 --> 01:11:41.520
Um so I will be happy to get that out to people as soon as we possibly can.
01:11:41.760 --> 01:11:59.520
Um yeah, as for Progressively Horrified, if you love horror movies or you hate horror movies and do want to hear about what's going on with them, or you're interested in the politics of horror, um, we watch a horror movie every week and we talk about the progressive politics or lack thereof in that movie.
01:11:59.840 --> 01:12:02.720
In some cases, definite lack thereof.
01:12:02.880 --> 01:12:12.399
But, you know, uh it is not an overly serious podcast, so we have a lot of fun, we make a lot of jokes, sometimes at the expense of these films.
01:12:12.720 --> 01:12:18.000
And sometimes just Ben Kahn says some of the weirdest shit I've ever heard in my life.
01:12:18.239 --> 01:12:23.520
I remember there was an episode where you had to explain Cowgirl to him, like to them, and I'm like, what?
01:12:24.479 --> 01:12:25.119
Yeah.
01:12:25.520 --> 01:12:29.439
Uh God, I I love my my co-host, Ben and Emily.
01:12:29.600 --> 01:12:30.800
We're both in comics.
01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:36.960
Ben is a writer as well, and Emily is an artist who, if you've read any of Princeless, is the artist of most of Princeless.
01:12:37.359 --> 01:12:43.439
Um they're they're lovely folks, and I am, I think, the big horror head of the group.
01:12:43.600 --> 01:13:00.800
Um, but there's a lot of like talking about all of this this weird stuff and all of the uh all of the weird stuff from the world we live in, and occasionally also the New York Knicks, because uh Ben Ben lives in the city and uh Oh congrats, I guess.
01:13:01.119 --> 01:13:01.600
Yeah.
01:13:01.840 --> 01:13:23.520
Well I I very distinctly remember recording an episode while game three of the playoffs of of the finals was going on, and starting the episode with Ben being like, Well, I guess it's fine that we're doing this now, because the Knicks are losing by like 20 points, and then by the end of the episode they had completed the greatest comeback in NBA history.
01:13:23.840 --> 01:13:30.720
Yeah, I I I don't follow basketball, but even when I heard that story, I I also live in upstate New York, so it was everywhere.
01:13:30.960 --> 01:13:31.920
Yeah, I imagine.
01:13:32.079 --> 01:13:37.199
But yeah, you know, we we talk about horror movies and occasionally pro wrestling on there as well.
01:13:37.359 --> 01:13:42.399
It's uh it's a lot of fun if you're into politics or you're into scary stuff, or both, or neither.
01:13:42.640 --> 01:13:50.159
Can be a lot of fun just uh to come hang out with us and uh listen to us talk about the stuff you maybe don't even want to watch.
01:13:50.800 --> 01:14:15.279
That's that's I think my wife does the editing on it, which I think is perfect for her because she gets to hear about the scary movies and what they're about without actually having to watch them, um, which I find is a not uncommon experience with with people in the podcast of like they are curious about horror movies, but they don't really like being scared or seeing a lot of like there's a lot of podcasts that I listen to that are basically that concept.
01:14:15.680 --> 01:14:16.159
Yeah.
01:14:16.399 --> 01:14:20.000
Uh a lot of the like podcasts about bad movies, especially.
01:14:20.079 --> 01:14:22.640
It's you know, watch it so you don't have to.
01:14:22.880 --> 01:14:23.039
Yeah.
01:14:23.520 --> 01:14:35.439
Like I listened to a podcast called Too Scary Didn't Watch, I think is the name of just listened to a few of them where it's like one person describes the plot of the horror movie to them and they did an episode on like martyrs.
01:14:35.520 --> 01:14:37.279
I'm like, why would you do this to your body?
01:14:37.439 --> 01:14:38.079
Oh my god.
01:14:38.800 --> 01:14:43.199
That is that is the rare horror movie I just had to fast forward through.
01:14:43.439 --> 01:14:46.640
So I was like, what is the what are we doing here?
01:14:46.800 --> 01:14:49.520
What is the point of this endless suffering?
01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:52.159
Um I'm dead inside, so I watched it twice.
01:14:52.319 --> 01:14:56.960
Um I was like, the trick is there is no point, and that's the point.
01:14:57.359 --> 01:15:00.239
Yeah, that that's basically the movie.
01:15:00.800 --> 01:15:01.199
Yeah.
01:15:01.439 --> 01:15:01.920
All right.
01:15:02.239 --> 01:15:05.439
Well, Jeremy, thank you so much for coming on.
01:15:05.600 --> 01:15:10.560
Uh I am really looking forward to owning a physical copy of Navigating for You Volume 2.
01:15:10.720 --> 01:15:17.840
Uh, definitely looking forward to that lights out episode of uh Progressively Horrified and probably a couple other other good ones coming up too.
01:15:18.079 --> 01:15:18.479
Oh, yeah.
01:15:18.560 --> 01:15:23.760
We will we will finally be talking about uh Alien Romulus.
01:15:23.840 --> 01:15:31.279
If you've been wondering if we will address a movie in which somebody's vagina explodes, yeah, we will.
01:15:32.800 --> 01:15:33.439
All right.
01:15:33.760 --> 01:15:35.279
Well, I'm looking forward to that.
01:15:35.439 --> 01:15:38.479
And uh well, thank you again so much for coming on.
01:15:38.560 --> 01:15:40.000
It's been a pleasure as always, sir.
01:15:40.159 --> 01:15:42.399
And I guess we're gonna get wrapped up for the night.
01:15:42.560 --> 01:15:44.000
Well, have a great night, everyone.
01:15:44.079 --> 01:15:45.119
Thanks again, Jeremy.
01:15:45.439 --> 01:15:46.000
Thank you.
01:15:46.319 --> 01:15:49.119
Well, it's time to close the book on today's episode.
01:15:49.359 --> 01:15:58.319
If you're a comic book creator and you have something for me to review or would like to interview a guest on the show, please send me an email at comicbooksbeyond at gmail.com.
01:15:58.399 --> 01:16:01.359
This offer is also available to fellow comic journalists.
01:16:01.520 --> 01:16:05.520
If you're a listener and you want to submit a question, I'd happily read it on the show.
01:16:05.680 --> 01:16:10.479
Please just let me if it let me know if it's okay to read and how you'd like to be created, credited.
01:16:10.640 --> 01:16:17.840
If you'd like to get a hold of me otherwise, I'm at comic books beyond on Blue Sky Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, but I mostly use Blue Sky.
01:16:18.000 --> 01:16:20.560
Uh, I am trying to use uh Instagram a little bit more though.
01:16:20.720 --> 01:16:24.560
If you'd like to show support for the show, please consider leaving a rating, review, or comment.
01:16:24.640 --> 01:16:29.600
I ask for honest reviews only, and I'm always looking for ways to improve the quality and content of the show.
01:16:29.760 --> 01:16:34.159
Alright, everyone, be good to each other and stick around for some gratitude and thanks.
01:16:36.399 --> 01:16:54.319
Comic Books Beyond would like to thank John Burkle and the crew of the Talking Comics Podcast, Brandon McNulty, Lisa and Bradford from Comic Book Couples Counseling, Alex Jaffe, Jeremy Whitley, Jimmy Gusparo and the crew of Comic Book Yeti, John Clyde III of Shadow and Flames with Magic Podcast, David Pepos, and all of our listeners and co hosts.
00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:04.400
Hey everybody, welcome to Comic Books Beyond.
00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:10.160
I'm your host, Vic, and we have with us Texas's most wanted returning guest, Jeremy Whitley.
00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:10.880
Welcome to the show.
00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:11.919
Welcome back to the show.
00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:12.880
Thanks.
00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:16.399
I mean, I'm pretty good at this being most wanted.
00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:19.519
I'm not even in Texas, and you know, they're after me.
00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:22.320
So in the States, I'm not even in.
00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:29.199
I'm sorry that happened, but I know some people would consider that an honor, but it still, you know, sucks.
00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:35.520
But yeah, it's, you know, you you want your your books to be available to kids.
00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:57.840
You want kids to be able to you know, the the whole reason The Dog Knight, which is is the book that is is banned, is uh is what it is, is because we want you know kids to be able to see themselves in in books, and uh, you know, clearly there are some politicians in Texas that do not want kids to feel represented and safe and all that stuff.
00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:07.599
No, no, but but we are here to talk about a couple things, including Navigating With You Volume 2, which is coming out in is that November that's coming out, or is that is that October?
00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:08.640
Uh November.
00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:11.840
It was originally scheduled for October, it's been moved back to November.
00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:12.560
Gotcha.
00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:14.959
So I I've read Navigating With You Volume 2.
00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.000
I also read Navigating With You Volume 1.
00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:20.159
Uh, I enjoyed the hell out of both.
00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:22.319
I'm about three-quarters of the way through Dog Knight.
00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:26.640
Uh, I I wish I got a chance to finish that today, but my day took a couple turns.
00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:28.719
They have a way of doing that recently.
00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:30.079
Uh yeah, yeah.
00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:30.879
Yeah.
00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:32.400
Alright.
00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:38.239
So, first of all, can you give us your elevator pitch for you know honestly, both of these books if you want?
00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:43.120
Maybe a something meets something, or if you like this, you'd like Dog Knight or navigating with you.
00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:44.000
Ooh.
00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:58.400
Um, so navigating with you is I I think in in some extent the the pitch sort of sells it as it is, and that it's um the story about uh falling in love over obscure manga.
00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:00.959
It's what I always tell people at the uh cons.
00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:32.159
It's about two girls who uh moved to the same town in North Carolina, Durham, where I'm from, uh, and they uh are both coming from from different states and from different schools, and uh end up bonding over um this shared love of this this manga that they were both into as kids, uh, that suddenly uh they realize that neither of them is ever finished, and since they don't have other friends in the school, they decide to put together a little book club to try and finish this manga.
00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:46.960
Um so they have to track down all the books of it so that they can uh read these and uh finally finally get to the end of it, if possible, over the course of uh this book club, they end up becoming friends and then uh quite a bit more than friends.
00:02:47.199 --> 00:03:00.719
Um so I think it's uh I I think if you love reading, uh ironically, if you love reading manga or just reading and sharing books with friends, uh I think this is something that will immediately appeal to you.
00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:09.919
Uh, but especially if you know you're a fan of uh Yuri or or queer graphic novels in general, uh this will be something that'll immediately click with you.
00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:16.159
Uh and then of course, uh navigating with you is a navigating with you volume two is a continuation of that.
00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:31.120
Um first one takes place all across their junior year, and then uh the second one is is their senior year, and dealing with sort of the complications of being in a relationship and at that point uh a somewhat long distance one, not to spoil anything.
00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:39.919
Um But all of the all of the more difficult things of of actually maintaining a relationship rather than uh getting into one.
00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:45.280
As for the dog night, trying to think what is the blank meets blank of that one.
00:03:45.439 --> 00:04:01.199
I think if you if you enjoy sort of like chosen one stories, if you enjoy uh a little like fantasy action adventure, and you're also a big fan of of dogs generally, if you just like uh stories about dogs, if you like magical talking dogs.
00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:03.199
Uh so if you have a soul.
00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:03.840
Yeah.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:06.400
You know, as long as you're not a a cat person.
00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:08.240
What if you're an everything person?
00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:09.120
Sure.
00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:11.360
Then then I I think it's good.
00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:27.680
Um yeah, I think you know, it's about uh a non-binary middle schooler, Frankie, who is recruited by a group of magical dogs who are called the Potheon, who are uh a group of sort of dog superheroes, each one that represents one of the values that dogs hold most dear.
00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:40.800
Uh and they recruit Frankie to become the dog knight, whose job is to work with dog this group of dogs to help save the world from the forces of chaos that are secretly surrounding us all the time, but only dogs can see.
00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:44.319
Uh so what kind of research did you do for the dog knight?
00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:54.480
Were you just hanging out in dog parks all week or uh I think the biggest the biggest uh research of the dog night was just having a dog.
00:04:54.720 --> 00:05:22.560
Um you've had a dog for any any period of time, uh it sort of started with the idea that like dogs can see things that we can't, which if you've ever had a dog that you know barks and scratches at strange things that don't seem to be there at odd hours of the day and night, who just like you know, we'll will get up to go handle something and it is unclear what it is to you as a human before they you know just circle back and come back right to where they were before.
00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:34.480
Um, that was sort of like the driving idea is that you know these dogs are uh protectors not just from the things we can see, but there are things that we can't see that uh dogs are out there helping us out with.
00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:41.360
And of course, that sort of led to the idea that there's a a contract there between humans and dogs.
00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:46.480
Uh that you know, we we provide the the food and the comfort and they provide the protection.
00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:55.439
Um and so from there it was just a question of uh figuring out what a what a dog Avengers or dog justice league looks like.
00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:58.000
I I really do enjoy the Potheon.
00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:00.879
As soon as I got to that, I'm like, oh, this is just adorable.
00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:05.120
I cannot wait to give this to one of my friends with kids or one of my friends with dogs.
00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:10.160
I I don't currently have a dog, we have cats, and uh we have nothing against dogs.
00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:15.439
I had a dog growing up, just uh uh cats are supposed to be easier to deal with, and that's a lie.
00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:20.000
I've never had a cat that was easier to deal with than pretty much any dog we've ever had.
00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:25.199
No, no, my my dog growing up, I I finally get to tell this story.
00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:34.079
So he used to sit in front of the oven every day and stare at his own reflection and growl for three hours every night.
00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:44.560
And just reading this, uh, one of the dogs in here, um, I forget his name, but the one who is kind of like the dark knight of dogs, and this one we'll call him uh the justice dog.
00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:47.199
I I think it kind of Yorkshire Terror.
00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:49.040
Yeah, the Yorkshire Terror.
00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:53.600
Uh my dog was uh a Doberman, Lab, and Beagle.
00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:56.879
So a couple of big dogs with a really tiny dog put together.
00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:11.600
Yeah, so three big dogs, because all tiny dogs are sure that they're big dogs, which is is sort of was a lot of the motivation behind uh terror is like oh yeah, this is he is a Yorkie who thinks he's Batman.
00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.040
You know, he's always hiding and leaping from the shadows.
00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:23.439
He's he's the one with plans, he's the one that's always prepared and knows things, which I I I've had a lot of fun.
00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:30.079
He's one of the most fun to write because his his dialogue for me is often somewhere around Darkwing Duck.
00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:32.160
Um that's another good one, yeah.
00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:40.959
Yeah, he's he's very certain of his uh his own terrifyingness and his own size, even if he is uh physically obviously quite small.
00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:50.319
Now, did you have like certain characters in mind you wanted to model like the analogs of either the characters in Dog Knight or even navigating with you in?
00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:53.600
Because there's references to stuff you like all over this.
00:07:53.759 --> 00:08:03.360
Like I know you're a big wrestling fan, and there's little comic book references here and there, like I don't know, were you pict- picturing like Darby Allen in your head here or just uh any of the Avengers?
00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:04.480
What do we got?
00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:16.000
Um, I think with the dogs, I I wanted to have each of them like start with the idea of of what it is that they represent and sort of build a dog out from there.
00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:24.560
Um so yeah, I mean, you know, he's uh Terror is a little bit Darby Allen, a little bit Batman, a little bit Darkwing duck.
00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:29.439
Um, you know, just sort of uh always lurking, always scary.
00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:31.279
A little little the crow, even.
00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:33.120
Um yeah, I can see that too.
00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:38.080
Yeah, he's uh he's very sure of his own uh terrifying nature.
00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:48.480
Um I think the other funnest one to write for me is is Platinum, the Platinum Retriever, who is sort of Frankie's best buddy through the books.
00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:58.720
Um and Platinum is sort of based on uh what I was pretty sure my uh my own dog at the time, who is who's recently passed away, Ace.
00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:02.960
Um he was pretty old.
00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:10.080
Um and he is that's sort of what I figured Ace's voice was like, a little bit dopey, but very helpful.
00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:10.559
Yep.
00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:12.399
You know, very caring.
00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:16.159
His Platinum's whole thing is uh sense of smell.
00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:20.240
So, you know, that's sort of sort of a loose interpretation of that.
00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:34.559
He's always got has sort of a he has a little bit of a I guess for him it's a fifth sense, not a sixth sense, but uh you know, his his his nose tells him a lot more about the world around him than uh than ours does.
00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:40.399
So he's got a he's got a good sniffer, but also a good uh you know, gut feeling about things.
00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:45.039
But yeah, I think building him out from there I wanted to like play around a little bit with each of the things.
00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:58.159
I mean, Doug, whose thing is is stubbornness, uh seemed very obvious to me having had a bulldog uh some time ago, who just like if he decided he didn't want to do something, you weren't moving him.
00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:05.279
You know, you'd slide across the floor if you had to, but he wasn't uh he wasn't getting up and going anywhere if he didn't want to.
00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:06.159
Nope.
00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:23.919
My wife and I had a roommate for a little while, and she had a German short hair pointer, which that dog I thought he was on meth, and until we got him to exercise, I'd take him for a four-mile walk, and at the halfway point, I'd drag him back because it was that kind of dog.
00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:24.879
Yeah.
00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:28.240
Just plant into the grass and and not get back up.
00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:30.000
Yep, yep, that was him.
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:30.480
Yep.
00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:32.799
Uh so how about the girls in navigating with you?
00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:34.080
Where did where do they come from?
00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:54.559
So Nisha has little bits of of people in my own life, a little bit of um, a little bit of my wife, a little bit of her mom, uh, which uh Nisha's mom definitely has a mix of those two in there, um, but also a lot of people that I know from from working in comics who are cosplayers or or fans or writers.
00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:59.519
Um, you know, she's a uh creative and and justice-driven kind of person.
00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:13.200
Um, and one of the big things I wanted to do with her that I uh hadn't had a chance to do was when I had been working on Unstoppable Wasp at Marvel, and I had created sort of these background characters for that story.
00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:36.639
Um Taina, one of the background characters I created for that to be part of the the girl labs, uh used uh arm braces and it was uh head CP uh Cerebral Palsy, which was like an important part of her character, but being a supporting character in what turned out to not be a terribly long book, um, we only got to do so much with her.
00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:51.759
But while writing with her, I uh I met a fan and and writer himself uh who uh has CP and had volunteered to like give me some advice and and feedback on stuff with her and had helped me uh write some stuff around her.
00:11:52.000 --> 00:12:03.039
And um when I had this opportunity to write a romance story, I knew that I wanted this character, I wanted one of our lead characters to have a visible physical disability.
00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:14.159
Uh, because that's so rare in I mean any comics really, but especially in a romance story for our central romantic protagonist to have a physical disability.
00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:14.559
Right.
00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:39.519
Um so I felt like this really cool opportunity to to use this sort of consulting that I I already had uh and turn that into a part of this story and do something that felt uh important and unique and uh gave us a an element that you know I I had never seen in in stories like this that is you know very central to the character, if not necessarily the plot.
00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:46.080
And then on Gabby's side, she is uh she's based quite a bit on some stuff from from my own family.
00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:56.559
Her dad is is Mexican and is based sort of roughly on my own uh grandfather, my dad's stepdad, my tata, who is Mexican, and uh is actually named after him.
00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:58.000
They're both named Gabriel.
00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:09.200
But he's you know just sort of a uh a dad who's doing his best, and and Gabby is you know his his kid who is sort of living in a place that's unfamiliar.
00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:32.000
I moved around a lot as a kid, but is doing her best to be friendly and and to uh get along with everybody and has a really hard time not necessarily get along with other people, which is is something I I also struggle with myself, is just uh letting people not be my friends if they are uh if they are not if they're determined not to be, if they're determined not to be nice to me.
00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:38.000
Uh as a writer, I often find myself being like, but no, just just try this other thing.
00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:39.279
Just just give it another chance.
00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:41.279
I'm sure you'll like this thing.
00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.480
Um when some people are just determined not to like you.
00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:48.240
Uh and I I threw some of threw some of that into Gabby as well.
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:58.000
Uh also, if you've ever seen me at a convention, Gabby has the same problem with sitting in chairs correctly that I do, which is I don't I don't like to just uh sit.
00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:06.480
If you see me at a convention, I'll be kneeling or standing halfway on the chair, doing some sort of Captain Morgan pose or something like that.
00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.200
Uh, how is the convention circuit right now?
00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:15.360
I I know you're doing about 5,000 of them, and I I'm I'm gonna miss them all this year, unfortunately.
00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:20.960
They don't line up in any way I can go unless I magically get tickets to New York City for free.
00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:28.879
Yeah, it's um it's an interesting year because I have done a ton of shows, but they're all sort of lining up right here at the the end of the season.
00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:33.440
Um, but it's been a year where I've I've decided to skip some of the bigger ones.
00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:35.039
I'm not doing New York this year.
00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:36.639
I didn't do San Diego.
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:42.240
Uh didn't do any of the read pop shows because they they've all gotten very big and very expensive.
00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:54.960
And what I really like anyway is is connecting with fans and with readers and uh having a chance to to talk to people about books and and about what I do and what we all love.
00:14:55.200 --> 00:15:00.240
So it's it's fun to get to do shows like um you know, I did get to do a show in New York.
00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:08.080
I did Flame Con a few weeks back, which is all a big LGBTQ convenor or con centered convention.
00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:11.600
So that's that's a lot of fun because people at that are very enthusiastic.
00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:27.840
There's a lot of over-the-top costumes, there's a lot of like it's a really fun show to be at and to sort of fellowship with uh people who are excited about you know what we're doing and who are in a lot of cases creating you know amazing stuff themselves.
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:29.200
That's a really fun one.
00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:59.200
I just did uh as we're talking, I just came back from BCAF, which is the Boise Comics Arts Festival, which is one of like my favorite subgenres of of festivals and conventions and everything, which is ones run by librarians uh who are all amazing people, always very excited to talk about books, and very excited to like dive in and ask questions and um are out there championing books and and fighting against book bands every day.
00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:06.399
Uh while I'm you know sitting at home and in the dark typing away on my computer, they're out there actually getting my books to people.
00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:09.440
And that's it's super that's just a lovely show.
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:25.279
Boise is a nice little town, got to go see hot air balloons while I was there and have just uh a wonderful, yeah, wonderful weekend there, and I'm getting ready to do SPX up in Maryland, which is always lovely because it is such a comic-centered convention.
00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:27.440
It's one I always recommend to people.
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:44.639
It's not big on sort of the Big Two or or a lot of what we consider mainstream comics, but it's really nice in that everybody that's there has comics, they they make comics rather than a lot of walls of prints of you know Batman's head.
00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:53.440
Um it's people who are doing their own often very weird stuff, but it's the the weird stuff that's in their weird little hearts.
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.559
Are you doing Baltimore Comic Con this year by any chance?
00:16:56.799 --> 00:16:57.600
Uh I'm not.
00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:04.559
I did I did Baltimore a couple years ago, but I'll be pretty close in SPX, which is in Bethesda, right down the road.
00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.839
Yeah, it's uh Baltimore is one of my favorite cons to go to.
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.480
It's it's one of the only ones I've ever been to more than once.
00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:16.799
I I like that one because it's very much a it's comics focused instead of like other media and stuff.
00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:18.559
They usually have a lot of good panels.
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:41.759
Um it's very similar in my experience to HeroesCon, which is in Charlotte, North Carolina, uh, which is relatively close to me, and I I tend to do most years, which is like it's a really it's a really big, really comics-focused, uh, much more big two stuff than say an SPX, but you know, the big guests are people who are working on comics, people like John Ramita Jr.
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:48.240
and people like Scott Snyder, rather than having actors and rock stars and everybody else there.
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:53.200
Yeah, that that's what you go to a con for is to you know to meet writers, artists.
00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:55.680
That that's that's what I would want to go to a con for.
00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:59.119
And um yeah, I just I would like to go to more.
00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:05.279
Just I live in the middle of upstate New York, and New York City is like a five-hour drive for me.
00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:10.000
So we're we're I'm like right at the spot where there's no easy way to get to New York City.
00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:13.279
So and could you say a little bit more about Flame Con?
00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:19.119
Because I know that one is growing in huge popularity, uh, and it's very LGBTQ focused.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:23.200
And I the stuff I saw out of that one this year, it was like the most exciting.
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:29.680
So that one that one is very comic focused, more than uh it's on that same level as we would say.
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:45.519
Um yeah, it's for people who've been in the past, I think it started out very comics focused and it grew very fast, and they had a lot of uh folks who weren't necessarily in in comics getting in and doing you know, dealing and and prints and stuff like that.
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:57.680
I think they made a real attempt this year to to jury it a little bit and and make sure that it had a lot of comics people uh you know tabling and and talking about comics in there.
00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:00.640
Um they had a change of a venue this year as well.
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:09.039
So if people have been before, the previous venue was uh sort of dark and loud and cramped.
00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:11.920
Um whereas this one they they changed venues.
00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:14.319
We're right basically on Broadway now.
00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:17.359
Um in a yeah, in a hotel there.
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:26.319
We were right across uh the walkway from the theater where they were doing the uh Stranger Things uh Broadway play right now.
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:28.000
Um what?
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:35.279
Yeah, there's a uh a Stranger Things prequel play on Broadway currently, who is right next to us.
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:39.599
But is it just the kids hanging out playing DD and reading comics?
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:55.039
I think I haven't seen it, but I think it's like dealing with some of the like more metaphysical and terror-based stuff prior to the involvement of the you know kids from the the show.
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:58.880
So I'm I'm not a hundred percent on on what exactly the plot is.
00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:13.039
But uh yeah, FlameCon is it has this big sort of LGBTQIA focus, and it has a lot of like folks who are from you know comics and animation and stuff like that who are don't necessarily make it out to a lot of shows.
00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:46.160
They put a big emphasis on bringing out people who you know don't always go to the New York Comic-Cons or even the Heroes Cons for that matter, and really having the sort of like representation and uh a very different kind of like mood and attitude toward the con than strictly uh people running in and you know getting all their signatures and having their books authenticated by you know whatever authority, it's much more like getting in there and then being excited about finding new stuff and meeting creators who you don't get to meet at every other show.
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:47.279
Yeah, definitely.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:52.880
Alright, so I'd like to get back to the books we're talking about a little bit today, or we'll just gonna keep talking about cons.
00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:57.359
But uh, so now these are actual graphic novels that you have put out.
00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:58.400
These weren't singles.
00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:00.799
Was there any um thought in doing a graph?
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:04.400
Like what was the thought process of a graphic novel over singles?
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:08.240
Was that a Maverick choice or these are both by Maverick, aren't they?
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:12.079
Uh no, Dog Knight is um through McMillan.
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:14.880
It's uh Bible and Friends, which is an imprint of McMillan.
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.319
But I I think it's the reasoning is similar.
00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:26.480
I think uh the direct market is not always particularly friendly to younger books, uh, especially not to romance books.
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:39.440
I think there are a lot of uh comic stores that don't necessarily know what to do with them, they don't have anywhere to put them, even if they they do have interest in them, they don't necessarily have an ongoing fan base that's coming in looking for this stuff.
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:53.279
So it's much more, I think, book market friendly, and it it cuts out some of the need to, you know, do 20 pages with a cliffhanger and spreads and and things like that that are I think common in in single issue comics.
00:21:53.519 --> 00:22:12.640
Yeah, I think for you know, having done Princeless in single issues for for years and years, I I I could say that that's often a a more difficult thing than uh than I think people would realize because yeah, reaching that middle grade's audience, they're not always in the comic stores looking for single issues.
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:19.440
They're not necessarily um reading comics that way, if if they are reading them in in single issue format at all.
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:24.000
Uh a lot of them are reading it online or even through their library.
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:34.720
Um they're used to the format of something like a like a manga in a lot of ways where it's like you know, it drops a few pages at a time online and then eventually there's a collected version that they can go get.
00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:43.920
Um so it was I think sort of a natural choice with these to go uh graphic novel and and launch sort of into that book market and the comic book market at the same time.
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:48.319
Uh Maverick doesn't do too many single issue books.
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:59.839
Uh you know, they're there's sort of big brother Mad Cave does a lot more adult stuff and they do single issues on a lot of their things, but uh they're a little hard to maintain for YA and middle grades.
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:00.960
Makes sense, yeah.
00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:10.480
I've uh recently been getting into like Maverick and their or uh Mad Cave and their other imprints in the past couple years, and it's really impressive just the body of work that they put out.
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:35.680
Like they've got uh what in a manga imprint, the YA imprint, and then uh it seems like um their middle grades uh thing, and that they do School for Extraterrestrial Girls with me as well, but they have a lot of other books that are are both new and original stuff, but also they translate a lot of international, uh, you know, all ages or kids books.
00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:53.839
Get you see a lot of like Italian and and Spanish comics that make their way through paper cuts and they they do uh translations of those, and then on top of that, yeah, a lot of fun kids stuff, the occasional like Disney book, um and you know, other other stuff that the kids would be into.
00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:57.519
I know they've done in the past like Geronimo Stilton and stuff like that.
00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:02.720
Uh since you brought up School for Extraterrestrial Girls, uh can we chat about that for a little bit?
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:03.680
Absolutely.
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:07.519
So, what was some of the influences in that book?
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:11.599
I I'm assuming X-Men to some degree, or am I just off base there?
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:14.400
Oh no, definitely, definitely some X-Men.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:43.279
Um, I think part of part of that is I I wanted to get sort of an X-Men feel to it of having these kids who didn't necessarily know they were part of this world or are dealing with identity questions in in this larger scope of things, but also a little like there are certain popular uh sci-fi and fantasy school books that maybe have more attention and more uh love than they deserve out there.
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:50.160
Um and it are not always as as caring to the people who've cared about them in the past as they should be.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:25:18.960
So I'm always like interested in finding news stories, whether they're mine or other people's, to sort of fill some of that gap of of you know kids finding out mysteries from their past, figuring out who they are through uh a variety of different means, and and the idea of uh doing that in a school full of full of weirdos like yourself, uh like the X-Men, sometimes is um is very appealing to me.
00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:31.680
Uh, and it it's so fun to get to sort of have this whole background cast full of weirdos that pop in and out and uh might you know might become major characters if if we get attached to them or might just you know float on through.
00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:55.839
But lots of Jamie's designed lots of different types of aliens for that school, and it's really fun to sort of play on that edge of sci-fi in fantasy for me, where you know, we have a character who is herself a a lizard person, but she's rooming with you know somebody who is a fairy and somebody who is a sort of extraterrestrial horror, and then you know, occasionally a big orange cat girl.
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:58.960
I I really enjoyed School for Extraterrestrial Girls.
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:08.559
I think I shotgunned all three of them in a weekend, and uh the whole time I was thinking, you know, this is a good replacement for some of those other books we talked about.
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:12.559
And uh I don't know if you're familiar with the book Deadly Class by any chance.
00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:13.279
Yeah.
00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:20.319
It's not like I could just well, now I could, but if my nephew were still younger, I couldn't just hand him that book.
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:23.759
I could say, no, here's School for Extraterrestrial Girls.
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:35.839
My little punk nephew loved Princeless when he was like five, so he's 18 now, so um, but yeah, so uh is School for Extraterrestrial Girls 3 already out, or is that still coming?
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:37.039
Is that coming out as well?
00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:38.240
That came out in May.
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:39.839
Um that did come in May, okay.
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:44.000
That is out now, and that uh wraps up our trilogy here.
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:55.119
Uh I know both Jamie and I are interested in doing more stuff with that, but this sort of wraps up the story that we've been telling of uh you know Tara and Masako's first year in this school.
00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:11.279
It takes c takes place over summer break, but they they get sort of not to be too spoilery, but they get drafted to summer school and have to deal with some very, very serious issues going on uh around Earth, not so much as on Earth.
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:19.680
Yeah, I the thing with that world is I think you have it set up so even if this trilogy is done, you have a lot of room to play in there.
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:28.880
And I mean, what Chris Chris Claremont wrote X-Men for what 20 years or something, you you can you can squeeze out some more stories, and I think it'll be natural.
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:31.680
And I I would definitely look forward to more from that world.
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:32.079
Yeah.
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:37.920
To be honest, um navigating with you has probably been my favorite thing that I've read from you.
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:43.599
Oh wow, yeah, it I really enjoy slice of life stories.
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:48.960
Uh I mean, I was never a teen girl, but it these characters are really easy to connect with.
00:27:49.119 --> 00:28:00.160
And the one thing I was immediately drawn to is you as you put it, several of the characters had you know disabilities, and ever since we lost Oracle, we don't really have many characters like that.
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:04.640
Like uh, and I I'd actually forgotten about the character you mentioned in Wasp.
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:05.599
Ah, apologies.
00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:09.519
I think I only got about halfway through that, and then you you tore it my heartstrings too hard.
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:10.799
I just had to take a break.
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:13.200
You you know exactly what I'm talking about, too.
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:14.000
Oh yeah.
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:34.160
I I was actually I was just talking about that uh that series this past weekend, they were uh on a panel asking if I had ever had to change anything that was in a book, and I was I was talking about to to Marvel's credit, they they kept almost everything from you know that section.
00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:44.480
Uh Disney just asked me to change some wording on some things, uh, because there's certain there's certain words involving mental health uh that they are less comfortable with.
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:45.839
Yeah, I can imagine.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:47.759
From a legal standpoint.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:29:02.160
Um But yeah, to their very much to their credit, you know, we were able to tell of what I think is a very important story about mental health and and mental illness, um and the the ways that it affects even superheroes in the world.
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.759
Yeah, and there's a lot of important messaging in your book.
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:07.519
I in in honestly all of your books.
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.200
You how do you choose the topics of what you're writing about?
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:16.880
Do you do themes first or do you have stories first and try to move the themes into the stories?
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:19.119
Because uh they fit very well together.
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:20.960
I'm just curious how you go about that.
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:23.599
It's it's different, I think, in a lot of cases.
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:32.079
I mean, obviously with Marvel or with uh to some extent with navigating with you, there's some stuff there already.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:43.440
Um you know, for navigating with you, they really uh Mad Cave Maverick really wanted to do a romance book based around fandom and based around manga.
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:54.720
And um I sort of like you know took that very short stump of an idea and was like, alright, well, if we do this, I would want it to be a queer romance story.
00:29:54.880 --> 00:30:07.279
I want to uh I wanted to set it in because I wanted them both to be coming from from different places uh and and both be sort of on on the back foot as far as figuring out where they fit in.
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:19.759
And I I thought that Durham was actually a really great place for that because we have somebody coming from Florida and somebody coming from New York, and both of those places are very different from North Carolina, but also even more different from each other.
00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:33.119
So throwing those together uh in Durham made a lot of sense to me, and then you know, I had all these things that are are leftovers of things that are important to me that I'm always thinking about and working on in there.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:40.240
Um, and that you know, I like I said I wanted to be a queer romance, I wanted to have a disabled character in that lead spot.
00:30:40.319 --> 00:31:05.920
I wanted to have two characters of color as the the romance, because so often I think books that are pitched at a mainstream audience but have a character of color, they're like, oh well, that romance is with a white person so that it's more digestible to you know what they they think the larger audience for stuff is, rather than you know having care having two characters of color in this story.
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:29.839
But I still wanted to have some diversity around that and and share some of the like diversity that's in in my real life out there in the world, because I think you know I I can't speak for other people, but the the whiteness of a lot of you know comics historically, especially in the mainstream, is not even as a a white guy, it's not actually indicative of my life.
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.519
Um it's not just it's not just white people 24-7.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:49.200
Um so yeah, I I remember talking about how, you know, alright, well, don't you you just write whoever comes naturally to you, but then you end up with, you know, the Justice League or the Avengers, and you end up with a very substantially white group of people.
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:52.960
Um unfortunately and for for some folks.
00:31:53.119 --> 00:32:26.640
Um But yeah, I I think that's my a lot of times my biggest thing is is getting sort of characters down first, having a very like vague idea of what I want the story to be or what kind of story I want to tell, and figuring out a little bit about what the characters are that would be in that story, and then building up those characters to be real and complex and and sometimes difficult people uh to f to fit into this world and or not fit into this world as it may be.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:37.839
But I I think characters are the the biggest thing for me, even if I'm starting with plot, a lot of the times once I figure out who the characters are, they end up reshaping the plot around them.
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:45.920
Do you use any specific uh writing methods for your plot, like story circle, hero's journey, or save the cat, anything like that?
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.759
No, I am a I'm a bad I'm a bad creative writing student.
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:51.039
Um No, no, you're not.
00:32:51.119 --> 00:33:06.880
You're a good one because that's what I did, and I Yeah, I I find you know, a lot of those things I think are what I mean, especially like Hero's Journey, that's taken from a history of like so many stories are like this, right?
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:14.720
There are many good stories that have this shape, and so that is then a way to learn, like that is what those other stories do.
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.440
But that is not always the shape of a a story in real life.
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:33.440
So um you know, I I think once you get too tied up in things like that, sometimes they they serve sort of an opposite purpose of what they're supposed to do, which is is help you to move forward and tell a story.
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:40.480
I think it is useful to occasionally stop and think about what is it that my characters want?
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:41.440
What are they after?
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:43.839
Why are they saying the things they're saying?
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:47.920
Why um why are they making the decisions they're making?
00:33:48.000 --> 00:34:04.000
Because occasionally you'll find yourself just uh having your characters do something because it feels dramatic and it feels punchy, and then you'll you'll not be able to figure out what it is that comes next because you've already had them do something and it doesn't doesn't feel at all natural to them.
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:05.279
So definitely.
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:20.320
Yeah, so I think building out of I mean keeping character in mind and and you know figuring out your journey but not necessarily feeling like you have to stick to one method or another to uh you know to tell that story.
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:26.719
I think those can be nice little guidelines, but yep, you don't you don't always want everything to look the same.
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:40.960
No, I I a hundred percent agree where I I have a writer friend who I get into this argument with probably three times a week, where he says he doesn't like a story because it doesn't follow his traditional storytelling structure.
00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:50.559
And my argument that is who cares if if it's a good story, if it's a good experience, what does it matter if it doesn't have a tradition if it has a traditional three-act structure?
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:51.280
Yeah.
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:54.000
And and I'm not saying your writing doesn't.
00:34:54.159 --> 00:35:02.880
Uh the one thing I can say about almost everything I've read from you, I can tell the solid beginning, the middle point, and the ending.
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:11.840
And I think the focus on the middle the midpoint of a story is often a lot more important than your three-act structure or whatever it is.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:16.880
And I I can't remember where I've heard this quote, and tell me if you agree or disagree.
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:20.559
A story's better when you can't tell when you're changing the act.
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:32.239
Yeah, I think I think a lot of times you, especially with films, you can very physically feel when the act is changing, when they're going into the next part of the story.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:46.800
And my my goal is always to like have people so caught up and caring so much about the characters in the story that they're not thinking about story structure, they're not thinking about you know what comes next.
00:35:46.960 --> 00:36:07.760
Um, because I I find that personally, somebody who's who's read a lot of books and seen a lot of movies and written a lot of stories, that there'll be times that I'll be watching a movie with other people, and I'll be like, oh, and this is the part where this happens, or I can say a thing just as the character is saying it, because I know what that next line is.
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:14.880
Um and as fun as a party trick as that is, uh, I much prefer to be surprised.
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:24.800
Um not in so much as uh where it doesn't make sense or it doesn't work, but to you know, have a moment where like I don't know what's coming next.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:26.320
I don't know what they're gonna do.
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:29.599
Um, those are always nice moments for me.
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:41.760
Um I I regularly think about one of my favorite TV shows when it was on The Good Place, where it was like, all right, like this is I know, you know, I know what they're trying to do.
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:44.159
So obviously this is the arc for the whole season, right?
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:54.639
Because we're we gotta get to that point by the end of the season, and they'd blow past it the second episode and keep going on to the next thing and be like, oh wow, I I didn't expect to be here yet.
00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:57.679
I didn't know I don't know what's coming next.
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:06.719
I you know thought I had a whole like outline of all the beats that they were gonna hit to get there, but they'd just they'd blow right past that shark and keep going.
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:16.639
And that's that's always like such a great, such a preferable moment to me to like have have a moment where it's like, oh I I didn't know that was about to happen.
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:17.840
I didn't see that coming.
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:34.719
I think that's in a lot of cases why I I love fiction that's driven by queer people who uh who's you know, lives are are non-traditional in a lot of cases who are you know their lives have not been structured by the the way that they necessarily expected it to, and their their fiction is also not.
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:49.679
I always like I I was saying the other day I went and saw uh Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma, which is a movie that references a lot of other movies, but I had no idea what was coming next in it, and was always like on my toes.
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:57.920
I really like Jane Schoenburn as a director because like even though I feel like I sometimes know what she's after, I do not where know where she's going.
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:01.760
I haven't seen that yet, but that is on my watch list very soon.
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:03.039
Is that still in theaters?
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:11.920
Yeah, if if probably in New York you can find it around there, but it was very very brief blowthrough of North Carolina.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:17.599
Um, but yeah, if if you haven't seen that, but also their previous film, I saw the TV glow.
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:19.679
Oh, that was really good, yeah.
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:22.719
Yeah, that was one that just kind of knocked me out.
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:32.239
Um watching it and just I remember watching it and the movie ending and just sitting there watching the credits and just to myself with nobody else around, going, damn.
00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:34.559
Okay.
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:38.400
Uh just you know, it it it got me.
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:49.360
It it really emotionally hit me in the gut, and I think was one of those that like I did not know where it was going at any point and was couldn't have been crazier about how it went.
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:53.440
So you you uh I you're obviously a fan of horror.
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:55.679
Uh what's coming up on Progressively Horrified?
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:56.960
Is that something you can talk about?
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:05.039
Yeah, um, so uh I made a horrible decision, which is we always do themed stuff for October.
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:07.119
And yeah, we've we've done a bunch of different themes.
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:13.519
We did one that was all about sort of like classic slashers, we did one that was all about sci-fi horror.
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:25.679
Uh this this year I decided there were several movies that like we frequently reference because we hate them, um, but we've never covered on the show.
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:43.840
So um, since our our show is is often sort of not just progressive, but like positively aimed, I was like, let's just take October to like actually watch and talk about these movies that we uh absolutely hate.
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:52.400
So the theme of of the movies we've watched for October, which we've already recorded these episodes, uh, has been uh fuck this movie.
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:53.199
Alright.
00:39:53.840 --> 00:40:06.320
Yeah, so I I I brought a couple and uh Emily and uh Ben each brought one, but uh because of this, I was uh forced to uh watch the Tom Cruise Mummy for the first time.
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:09.360
Oh dear god Ben forced that one on me.
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:25.920
I had not since I must have been like 15 or 16 when I saw some of uh John Carpenter's Vampires for the first time, and so Emily brought that one, if if you're not familiar with uh the role of James Woods as action hero.
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:27.599
Jesus Christ.
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:29.519
It's a very bad film.
00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:33.360
Uh it's a bad movie, it's just it oh yeah.
00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:43.360
I um I brought Lights Out, which is um a David Sandberg movie from the early 2000s, uh not one.
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:45.280
What's terrible about it?
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:47.840
So it's been a while, so forgive me.
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:56.079
So, like, just from a a pitch standpoint, it's very much like what if horror was new metal?
00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:02.000
But on top of that, not to ruin this for anybody because it is already ruined, it's a terrible movie.
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:18.960
Um but the the concept of this movie is that this these kids' mom had a friend when she was in a mental institution as a kid who had some sort of allergy to light, but also had some sort of weird psychic powers.
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:26.320
And this kid was treated for this allergy to light by the scientists putting a lot of very bright light on her.
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:28.239
Uh, and so she disappeared.
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:33.679
But she still sort of is around because she's attached to the mom's brain.
00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:59.599
So in the dark, this character pops up and and attacks people, and she's a very obvious and heavy-handed metaphor for mental illness, which they they really thought they were doing something which, like, it's I mean, I wouldn't say it's great, but it's it's staying with it right up until the point that at the end of the movie, the only solution for her to save her kids from this thing is to shoot herself in the head.
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:09.199
A lot letting you letting you know the important theme of this movie is that the only way to save your kids from your own mental illness is to kill yourself.
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:16.239
Um, which is maybe, I'm gonna go out there and say, not a great theme for a film, uh, horror or otherwise.
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:18.480
No, no, not not really.
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:50.559
And it also has this repeated sort of underlying thing of one of the kids, there's she has an older daughter who is the main character of this, and that daughter is repeatedly like given grief and being told she's wrong for getting out of that house where a ghost that cuts people up in the darkness was trying to murder her because like she's responsible for her own mother's mental health, even at the cost of her own health, um, which I think is also not a positive message.
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:51.519
I didn't know.
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:59.599
I watched this movie about five or six years ago while riding the exercise bike, so it was background noise to me.
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:06.079
And remember you told me you do like to think deep about something, but I just wasn't thinking when I saw this movie.
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:14.320
So it was it was literally just the the first time I was watching it, I had I think just started this podcast, and I was like, oh, I get it.
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:19.679
It's a it's a very like the meme about elevated horror, right?
00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:26.400
Like, oh it's it's elevated horror is like horror except for the Dracula is that his dad is dead, right?
00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:37.679
Like that's that's the meme, and the like, oh, this is about mental health very obviously, and then that it ends with the solution to mental illness being killing yourself.
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:41.679
I was like, no, that's that's wrong.
00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:46.239
No, no, no, it's actually it's Suicide Prevention Month, everybody.
00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:47.199
Uh 988.
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:49.360
Just please use that number if needed.
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:51.280
Yeah, don't listen to rights out.
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:51.760
It's wrong.
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:59.760
Which by the way, uh I really applaud FUP for putting the resources in the back of uh I think it was Navigating With You One when you get to the end of the book.
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:01.920
No no spoilers here.
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:08.000
It's all good LGBTQIA plus resources, the Trevor Project, suicide prevention, stuff like that.
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:09.199
It's just good to see that.
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:30.639
So yeah, well, that is very much to credit my my editor, Lauren Heitzusan, um was very adamant and and serious about putting that stuff in there and making sure that you know people had the resources that they needed, which um yeah, is is you don't always know what you can get a publisher to put in uh a book like that.
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:32.719
But that was that was lovely.
00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:42.960
I'm always we try to, whenever we're doing stories that involve mental health and things like that, to have uh some sort of you know resources in there.
00:44:43.039 --> 00:45:08.079
Because I uh I ended up doing the same thing with Unstoppable Wasp just because we were dealing with a very heavy mental health issue where you know in instead of our our usual interviewing a physicist or something like that, interviewed a a psychologist about bipolar disorder and how to to know if you are dealing with bipolar disorder and how uh who you can reach out to if you were a friend or are dealing with these things.
00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:10.880
Um important to me.
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:18.880
But um yeah, it's always it's always good to have that stuff out there when you can and have a publisher and editor that have your back on those things.
00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:22.639
It's good that you're getting the support, it's good that you're doing what you do.
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:29.760
It's just I I wish there were more people talking about the kind of things that you're talking about in your books and telling stories like this.
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:36.480
And there probably are, and I just don't know about them, but I'm I'm just happy we have guys like you doing this.
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:37.280
Thank you.
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:44.880
We vicariously answered uh or you know, passively answered half the questions I wanted to ask, but uh I do have a couple more fun ones for you.
00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:51.360
Um so we we concluded the trilogy of extraterrestrial girls, we've got dog night coming up.
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:56.480
Um, so the next book in the navigating for you, are we gonna go straight horror?
00:45:56.559 --> 00:46:01.920
Like, are we gonna have the girls get into Junji Ito or you know, uh, you know, something like that?
00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:03.440
What's what's the plan there?
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:04.880
I mean, that would be fun.
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:07.840
I haven't done anything like that with them yet.
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:10.960
Uh, I would love to do more stuff in this world.
00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:21.840
I think, you know, it's it would be very easy for this second book to be the conclusion to this series, but I think the same was true of the first one.
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:33.039
Um and so, you know, it's it's uh I think it's a difficult art to tell a story that feels like a full story, but also leaves people wanting to follow those characters more.
00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:41.840
And that's I always want to write about, you know, not just uh Nisha and Gabby, but a lot of the other characters that we meet in this this volume.
00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:44.079
There's a much larger cast than the first one.
00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:46.239
And I would I would love to get more into them.
00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:52.960
Specifically, uh you know, both of their close counterparts in this story.
00:46:53.199 --> 00:47:10.320
Both Noli, who is uh Nisha's new friend, and uh Carrie, who is Gabby's old friend in new context, both like horror, it's both part of their uh their characters that they are into horror stuff.
00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:14.800
Noli also likes pro wrestling, which um I got that one.
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:26.719
Yeah, I I I got to steal a bit of my uh own nostalgia for Deadlock Pro Wrestling, which used to be our local indie pro wrestling show here.
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:27.519
That's awesome.
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:33.280
That uh yeah, used to used to come to the Durham Armory, which is lovingly portrayed in the book.
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:39.360
Um but uh Deadlock unfortunately uh had their their final show last year.
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:46.480
Um but so many of their stars from that are out doing incredible things.
00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:59.039
Um I remember watching um Speedball Mike Bailey and uh Jake something, who is is now Jake Doyle uh in AEW, were tag team champions there at one point.
00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:00.400
Um that's awesome.
00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:15.199
Yeah, I you know it's I have a passionate love for especially AEW, but also like indie wrestling and and all the little all the weirdness that exists in in wrestling, all the storytelling that they do.
00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:21.440
I'm less of a fan of of the other company and what they do that doesn't involve much wrestling.
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:36.079
Um but like I I love I love the weird guys, the little guys, the uh Eddie Kingstons of the world, the guys that don't necessarily fit the mold of of what a uh what a sports entertainer looks like.
00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:39.519
So you saw that doc too, huh?
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:45.920
Yeah, uh my Instagram, I don't know how this happened, but I mean I was an attitude era kid.
00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:47.760
Um I'm 38, so exactly.
00:48:47.840 --> 00:49:02.320
I basically I watched it wrestling from the start to the end of the attitude era, and then I realized, you know, I think I'm just done with wrestling because all my friends stopped, and it just lined up with one of John Cena's first shows was the last time I watched wrestling.
00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:08.159
It came to uh the Wilkes Bear Arena, that's where I grew up, and it was one of his first shows as I saw it.
00:49:08.239 --> 00:49:15.360
And just lately, the the nostalgia clips have been coming up where you see all the cool stuff and made me realize, oh, I really like Jeff Hardy.
00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:27.039
I wonder if anybody is doing what Jeff Hardy does, and then immediately a clip of Darby Allen doing his best uh Jeff Hardy impression comes up, and I'm like, oh, I kind of want to check out AEW now.
00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:30.400
Yeah, um, I am I'm a big fan of AEW.
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:37.840
I highly recommend if you want to drop in somewhere the uh all-in 2026, which just happened a couple weeks ago.
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:41.519
There's their big pay-per-view in in London in Wembley Arena.
00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:53.280
Um it features a whole lot of people in within a couple hours, and you get to see sort of what everybody's about on a very big uh stage and a very big scale.
00:49:53.440 --> 00:50:09.760
Um so yeah, I I love that there's a lot of the guys that were in DPW are are there now, and there's a lot of like I will say Jeff Hardy is I think had an outsized influence, uh a huge influence on the the next generation of guys.
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:16.639
Um both both in AEW in the indies and in uh a few people at the uh the other country.
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:18.480
The big guys are there as well.
00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:29.199
I think though the one the one guy that I will uh give props to over at the the big place is a guy named Javon Evans, who uh used to wrestle.
00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:31.199
He used to wrestle at DPW.
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:45.840
He is uh very, very tall, very long, uh acrobatic black wrestler who just like throws himself out of the ring, throws himself across the ring, does crazy stuff I've never seen anybody else do, has a uh a crazy leap on him.
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:48.800
Um but he's he's absolutely wonderful.
00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:52.480
He seems like a really nice guy from having met him at shows too.
00:50:52.639 --> 00:51:00.079
Um and if you're if you're into that stuff, uh also check out I think the the Rascals are in AEW now.
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:08.320
They um there's a a trio of uh high flyers, and uh they're they're pretty wonderful, they do a lot of cool stuff.
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:09.599
That's awesome.
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:18.079
I'm I'm like getting this close to like just having something to watch on Friday nights where if it's just me all alone, like I wouldn't mind watching this.
00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:31.760
It's uh Yeah, I mean it's you know AEW, their main show, Dynamite comes on on Wednesday nights, and they're they have Saturday nights, they do uh collision, but they're all on HBO Max these days.
00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:34.880
So if you have HBO Max, you can watch them whenever you want.
00:51:35.119 --> 00:51:40.400
Now, if AEW approached to be one of the writers, would that be something you'd ever be interested in doing?
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:41.360
Uh yeah.
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:43.199
Is that how AEW works?
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:44.239
I actually don't know.
00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:49.920
I mean they they have a much smaller staff, as I understand it, of people that write for their stuff.
00:51:50.079 --> 00:51:52.719
A lot of their guys do their own things.
00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:56.960
Uh sometimes to the good and sometimes to the ill.
00:51:57.119 --> 00:52:11.920
They you know don't necessarily have the same sort of pushing system of, you know, WWE can feel the like what the guy what the guys in charge are into, because they they push the same sorts of stories and the same sorts of guys all the time.
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:17.440
Um and I think AEW has has less of that, but also it has a little less structure.
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:39.280
So sometimes people who are maybe not the best on the microphone haven't had the experience uh as talkers themselves um have a little bit of a hard time catching up with people uh you know that still wrestle at AEW that have been doing this for a long time, like John Moxley or Chris Jericho, who can, you know, turn anything into a promo.
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:41.679
That's uh so you brought up Chris Jericho.
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:46.480
My cousin is actually I think he's friends with him to some degree.
00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:53.599
He has some weird metal band, and I think he was the guitar tech for I think it's called Fozzie or something.
00:52:53.679 --> 00:52:55.519
I they used to hang out or something.
00:52:55.760 --> 00:52:59.679
Um he was telling me all about it when I reconnected with him a couple years ago.
00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:00.000
Yeah.
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:03.679
They're they're actually all down in uh North Carolina and uh Charlotte?
00:53:03.760 --> 00:53:06.400
Yeah, the one that's on the closer to the Tennessee side.
00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:12.719
Yeah, I mean that's probably Charlotte is right there on the the border with North and South Carolina, it's where they do Heroes Count every year.
00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:21.679
Um it's about three hours from me, but yeah, they have a lot of they do a lot of pro wrestling there, and uh you know it's where Rick Flair's from.
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:26.400
So yeah, my mom actually met Ric Flair in like the 70s or something.
00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:27.039
Oh no.
00:53:27.679 --> 00:53:30.559
She always had this story where she she used to bartend.
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:38.800
Ric Flair came in one night and she wanted to get his autograph, but the the like the one of the other waiters said, Don't bother when he's eating steak.
00:53:39.039 --> 00:53:40.239
That sounds about right.
00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:41.599
He he was a weirdo.
00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:43.920
Is he still alive or wrestling?
00:53:44.079 --> 00:53:47.599
Because he was like 100 last time I saw him and he was still in the ring.
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:50.159
He is still alive, he is not wrestling anymore.
00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:52.800
He had his last match uh a couple years ago.
00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:54.239
Um that's amazing.
00:53:54.480 --> 00:54:02.960
But yeah, his his daughter, uh Charlotte, wrestles in uh in WWE has been a champion over there several times.
00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:08.159
And yeah, they're he's still sort of around, but he's pretty old these days.
00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:09.280
Yeah, he's gonna be a little bit more than a lot.
00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:17.599
It's a miracle that he lasted a miracle that he's lasted this long, considering the number of documented drugs that that man was on.
00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:22.960
I mean, there there's gotta be a Mick Jagger of wrestling, I suppose.
00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:25.199
Yeah, that's that's him.
00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:31.840
I mean, a lot of a lot of guys have come and gone that have put their bodies through a lot less than Rick Flair has.
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:33.280
Yeah.
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:45.199
Uh so I so we're gonna keep talking about pro wrestling if we if we don't like try to wrap up here, but uh I I did have one more question about the book before I want to turn things over to you.
00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:51.039
Um and this is more of just a commentary on your your writing, which just a recurring theme that I'm seeing.
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:58.719
I would say the main theme of navigating with you, both of them, it one of them was um communication.
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:03.039
And uh I'd say that rings true in a lot of your books.
00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:06.559
Like your characters have good, honest conversations.
00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:12.000
You see a lot of like good millennial parents, which is a good thing that exists, I guess.
00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:20.400
And did you study communication styles or any kind of attachment theory or you know millennial cringe meme culture culture for all this?
00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:23.679
So I live millennial cringe meme culture.
00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:38.719
Yeah, we're both millennials, so of course we Yeah, I I I would be lying if I said a lot of the the parent stuff isn't at least a little based on myself and my wife um and you know both navigating with UN in Dog Knight.
00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:43.760
But I I think it's communication is definitely a big thing for me.
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:59.440
Um I think I'm I'm a person who watches uh when I watch even like uh especially I guess uh reality television and like I get depressed by the like oh it's impossible for two people to communicate with each other.
00:55:59.599 --> 00:56:12.480
Like it's it's just so difficult for people to say what they need to say, even when you're watching on TV and you know, like, hey, it's very obvious what's going on with this, and that people in the situation just can't say it.
00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:16.719
Um, my wife and I have watched a lot of Love is Blind, if that does you anything.
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:43.760
Um and it it's one of those things that that gets me down because I I am a person who wants to understand other people, and I want to like I think it's one of the things about writing that's really cool is you get to get in other people's heads and and be a different kind of person and and tell stories from from different perspectives, which is something that I I always want to like know where other people are coming from and and try and understand what's what's going on with them.
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:56.800
I think as a you know, kid who who probably has a little bit of a little bit of ADHD and a little bit of other stuff, you know, going on with with my own head and being on sort of the ace spectrum as well.
00:56:56.880 --> 00:57:01.760
Like I'm always trying to figure out like what what are the other people that are thinking?
00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:31.039
And I I'm always I was telling my wife, I've got this like sort of recurring depressing thought of that like even it's I feel like it's impossible for for two people to even like communicate what the color orange is between the two of them, because you know, in in any case, you're going through a series of like nerves and synapsies and and all this stuff going on inside your eye and your brain that you can't really see and you don't really know what's happening.
00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:45.360
And you know, you can both identify something as being orange because somebody else told you, somebody else pointed at it and said, That is orange, that's what the color orange looks like, but you don't actually know if you and that other person are seeing the same thing, right?
00:57:45.679 --> 00:57:47.679
Especially since I'm colorblind, so yeah.
00:57:47.840 --> 00:57:50.079
Yeah, yeah, and that's yeah.
00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:54.400
I'm specifically like the red kind of colorblind where you can't see shades of red.
00:57:54.639 --> 00:57:56.719
So you have no idea what's going on with my shirt right now.
00:57:56.960 --> 00:58:01.280
I was gonna say, I'm guessing your shirt is some kind of red, but it's like fire engine red.
00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:04.159
I mixed up pink and white today.
00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:11.920
I we were at a boba tea restaurant or place with my my wife and I before they said, uh, I got a strawberry one, so get me the pink straw.
00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:14.239
And she grabs me like one that's red.
00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:16.960
I'm like, no, no, no, the pink straw, that's white, honey.
00:58:17.199 --> 00:58:35.119
Oh yeah, that's that's sort of like I think a recurring theme in my thoughts, and then the the transfers into the books of like trying to get this trying to understand other people, trying to understand yourself even um each other is always a a big thing for me.
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:39.119
Um both in you know when it works out and when it doesn't.
00:58:39.280 --> 00:58:57.679
I think, you know, uh other people listening to this will not have necessarily read Navigating with You Volume 2, but like it has a lot of I think the the theme of miscommunication and of not being able to tell people things that you need to is is something that uh definitely recurs in that quite a bit.
00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:05.440
And if you're listening to this, you should read Volume Navigating With You Volume 2, because it's it's very good, and I'll be ordering a copy.
00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:08.480
Oh, is uh extraterrestrial girls going back into print?
00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:11.599
You have a bookshop org or something.
00:59:11.679 --> 00:59:16.159
I I forget the name of the exact link, but I'm gonna add it to this to the show notes here.
00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:19.519
I think that was the only thing I couldn't pick up when I went to order some of your books.
00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:34.400
As I understand it, it is in print, but it's one of those like back-ordered things, so they have some at the warehouse, but you have to order it in order for it to go through the chain, as I understand it.
00:59:34.960 --> 00:59:35.920
Comics, got it.
00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:39.199
Yeah, comics supply chains in 2026.
00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:45.280
Um if there's a book coming out that you want, pre-order it through your local comic shop.
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:46.480
Just just do that.
00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:50.400
I've had big box retailers cancel my cancel my order.
00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:51.920
It's ridiculous.
00:59:52.239 --> 00:59:53.760
Yeah, that's yeah.
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:58.559
I would say, yeah, go if you uh if you have a local comic shop, go through them.
00:59:58.639 --> 01:00:12.000
If you don't, go through bookshop.org um because you can choose your local shop that you want to you know give part of the proceeds to of buying stuff from them rather than just buying from Amazon and supporting nobody.
01:00:12.079 --> 01:00:13.920
Uh nobody but Jeff Bezos.
01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:19.039
Um avoid popular online retailers if you can.
01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:20.559
If you can't, whatever.
01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:35.360
Yeah, but but I I have you were mentioning I have an affiliate page with Bookshop where I have a lot of my books posted there where people can order them through Bookshop and I get uh a kickback, as it were, from from Bookshop for recommending them.
01:00:35.519 --> 01:00:36.639
So that's nice.
01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:41.039
Yeah, it's uh that's something I hope more creators continue to do.
01:00:41.199 --> 01:00:47.199
I'd I I want my money to go to support you guys and not just I'm not even gonna say it.
01:00:47.360 --> 01:00:49.920
So yeah, I I appreciate that.
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:52.800
Uh you don't want to support Wonder Woman's people.
01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:55.440
Um yeah.
01:00:55.920 --> 01:01:10.800
So I'm I'm I'm excited about navigating with you volume two coming out because I I was really looking forward to sort of building out this world a bit and getting to I mean we revisit Durham a bit and then we get a uh you get to see a bit of Miami in there too.
01:01:11.039 --> 01:01:11.840
Did you have any?
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:20.000
I'm curious if as one of the first people I've I've talked to who's read it, uh do you have any favorites among our our new characters and stories in this?
01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:27.519
Um I the two well, the returning character from the first book, I really liked them and I really enjoyed the direction we went.
01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:30.079
I'm just trying not to be spoiler-y on that one.
01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:32.320
Uh is it Nweli or Noli?
01:01:32.719 --> 01:01:33.119
Noli.
01:01:33.599 --> 01:01:34.079
Noli.
01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:41.679
Um, I think they were my uh favorite character of all the characters put together from all the books.
01:01:41.840 --> 01:01:53.760
Uh, I I always tend to gravitate towards um generally not the main character, because like the uh she's in a way like kind of the guide character, like or the or the mentor in a way.
01:01:54.079 --> 01:02:00.320
And I just liked I I enjoy characters who are very competent, and she brought a big air of that.
01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:08.559
And uh I I think a lot of um Nisha's journey uh really is influenced by Noli.
01:02:09.119 --> 01:02:31.039
And the other thing that that I just found fun was just all the little dribs and drabs of just the stuff that I I know you like put into there with the anime stuff and the pro wrestling stuff, and just uh how much uh you when you first meet her, she's set up in a way where I really have to be careful how I say this.
01:02:31.360 --> 01:02:42.400
She seems unlikable at first, or like the first few pages, and then you realize no, this is just competency, uh assertiveness in a overall very positive way.
01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:49.920
And that that's a conversation I unfortunately have to have with a lot of my coworkers when it comes to female coworkers.
01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:53.920
Um, so I they they have been overall my favorite character.
01:02:54.159 --> 01:02:56.480
Yeah, I I really enjoyed writing Noli.
01:02:56.719 --> 01:03:10.719
Noli, I think, is very like both determined in the same way that Nisha is, but very direct about what it is that she wants and uh and what she's after in a way that Nisha doesn't seem to doesn't feel comfortable being in a lot of cases.
01:03:10.880 --> 01:03:19.840
Um and I I think it's I think her relationship with with Nisha and with the rest of that friend group is is really interesting to me.
01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:32.320
And it it's it's interesting when you're writing this many sort of you know, uh a cast which with the exception of like Gabby's uh Gabby's side of things is is all female.
01:03:32.480 --> 01:03:48.159
Um to have, you know, in a lot of cases they don't have a lot of space to uh define and differentiate themselves, but getting you know, getting in there and having you know these characters sort of set themselves apart pretty quickly, like Nolley does, I think.
01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:51.679
Um exercise.
01:03:51.840 --> 01:04:08.480
And uh Noli is is you know much more much more direct and I think in some ways sort of on that stereotypically mean girl spectrum of you know of you know she she doesn't really care about other people's feelings so much.
01:04:08.719 --> 01:04:17.599
She's not mean, no, but like she cares about her goals, her people around her, but she's not a jerk about it.
01:04:17.760 --> 01:04:20.239
She's assertive and not mean.
01:04:20.320 --> 01:04:22.000
I it's the best way I could put it.
01:04:22.239 --> 01:04:23.280
Yeah, absolutely.
01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:26.960
And and uh it's I think it's fascinating.
01:04:27.039 --> 01:04:34.559
I I don't think it's spoiling anything to say that that Noli is is dealing with a disability that is new to her.
01:04:34.719 --> 01:05:24.639
Um and that is a way in which you know Nisha is sort of uh a guide and help to her, somebody who has dealt with having a disability their whole life and and knowing what that's like and how people will treat them, and and having sort of gotten numb to it in some ways, whereas uh you know, Nully, while she is so confident and so sure of herself and so forthright about what she wants, this moment, these moments of sort of like people underestimating her, or you know, as it happens in one case in this story, telling her how brave she is for you know for having a disability and and not uh covering it up, not you know, just just being alive with a disability is you know is not something she knows how to handle yet, and is is going through it, as it were.
01:05:25.199 --> 01:05:28.639
Alright, Jeremy, we have come up past the hour mark.
01:05:28.880 --> 01:05:31.280
I want to turn the mic over to you, sir.
01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:37.360
I want you to make your final pitch, crack your knuckles, get ready, do some jumping jacks if you gotta do that.
01:05:37.519 --> 01:05:44.960
So make your final pitch for all your books, but specifically Navigating with You Volume 2 and Dog Knight and all the good stuff.
01:05:45.199 --> 01:05:46.239
Floor is yours, sir.
01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:59.840
Yeah, uh, so I'll start with the Dog Knight, uh, since that is not currently coming out, but is is immediately available right now, but is also uh dealing with a ban in uh schools and libraries.
01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:01.280
Syntaxis.
01:06:01.519 --> 01:06:07.679
It has been identified as a book that they wish to ban for no stated reason.
01:06:08.079 --> 01:06:13.360
The only one that one can imagine is that it features a lead character who is non-binary.
01:06:14.320 --> 01:06:19.039
But they aren't willing to say why they find this book problematic and dangerous.
01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:23.199
The thing about this is this book does is a middle grades book.
01:06:23.280 --> 01:06:25.519
It does not have sex or violence.
01:06:25.679 --> 01:06:52.719
It doesn't have any anything that you could conceivably think is a danger to children, other than if you do not want those children to feel that they are represented and welcome in the world and to find comfort in meeting a character who is like them, or even meeting a character who is like somebody else in their life that they might be able to relate this to and help them understand other people better.
01:06:53.519 --> 01:06:59.360
It is a book about magical talking dogs and their friend who is a non-binary human.
01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:03.840
And for some reason, some people find that very difficult to deal with.
01:07:04.400 --> 01:07:20.480
So I think this is a book that I would really appreciate people's support on, but I think especially is a great book to get for a young person in your life, whether they are dealing with gender issues themselves or know people who are, or just might know people who are.
01:07:20.639 --> 01:07:31.519
If they're just reading a book and want to uh know the world better and to better understand other people, I think this is a great book to put into their hands and to help them learn about people.
01:07:31.599 --> 01:07:38.079
While also having a fun time reading a uh fantasy story about talking magical dogs.
01:07:38.239 --> 01:07:41.280
So um definitely go check out Dog Knight.
01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:55.199
Now, if you are looking for something for yourself or somebody that is in the YA category or is reading in the YA category, um navigating with you, uh now we have, you know, this will be my our second book of this coming out.
01:07:55.360 --> 01:07:57.599
It is a Stonewall honored book.
01:07:57.679 --> 01:08:06.400
It was nominated for multiple awards this last year, including uh a Ringo and uh and a Harvey as well.
01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:11.440
Uh, you know, it was awarded by the Virginia Library Association for Diversity and Graphic Novels.
01:08:11.599 --> 01:08:54.880
Um, it features you know characters who are uh uh of various various ethnicities of various genders and uh sexualities, and it features characters with with disabilities, both physical and psychological, they are dealing with, and I think is is something that represents a lot of people by not trying to represent everybody, but giving you know people two two really uh some two really complicated characters who I I think are very real people in that respect, and I think a lot of times that's what people react to more than characters who are there and meant to represent somebody, who are meant to represent everybody.
01:08:55.039 --> 01:09:18.079
Um but if you like if you like uh Queer Romance, if you like uh Yuri books, if you like uh specifically books about fandom and about connecting through the things that you love, uh both of these books have that running as a theme within them of of how these two girls connect and how they continue to connect over distance.
01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:25.600
Um, you know, we have bits of the manga they're reading in there, so you get to follow along and be part of this story with them.
01:09:25.760 --> 01:09:48.000
And the big difference, I think, with volume two is that they are uh having anime dates, so they are watching this anime together over, you know, uh over the internet and enjoying it together in the way that I know a lot of uh people in fandom do, whether it's a romantic date or just uh uh just sharing their love for a thing that they they love together.
01:09:48.239 --> 01:09:53.439
So it's it's big and gay and messy and complicated, um, but isn't life.
01:09:53.680 --> 01:09:59.119
Uh so um if if that sounds like it's up your alley, love for you to check it out.
01:09:59.279 --> 01:10:03.199
The first one is out right now, so you can go pick it up at your store or order it online.
01:10:03.520 --> 01:10:08.479
The second one is available for pre-order and will be out uh November 24th, I believe.
01:10:08.640 --> 01:10:25.199
Um, and is is available through bookshop.org or your local comic book stores should be able to order it uh because it is a uh a Maverick book, which means it's through Mad Cave, so it's available to all direct market comic book shops as well as bookstores.
01:10:25.359 --> 01:10:31.920
So wherever you frequent whatever bookstore or comic book shop you wanna uh you want to support, I would check them out through there.
01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:44.159
If you can't find one, check out bookshop.org and uh order it through there and make sure you uh support great uh graphic novels and and LGBTQ storytelling in there.
01:10:44.399 --> 01:10:47.119
Well, I'm gonna give you a resounding hell yeah.
01:10:47.359 --> 01:10:47.840
Thank you.
01:10:48.079 --> 01:10:48.319
All right.
01:10:48.399 --> 01:10:51.520
Do you have uh anything else you want to shout out before we wrap up?
01:10:51.840 --> 01:10:53.039
Progressively horrified.
01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:56.880
Any any oh, any word on the uh Zoop campaign where when those books are coming out?
01:10:56.960 --> 01:10:58.960
I congrats on getting funded for that, by the way.
01:10:59.199 --> 01:10:59.840
Oh, thank you.
01:11:00.000 --> 01:11:02.560
Yeah, I I would have loved for those to have already been out.
01:11:02.640 --> 01:11:16.159
Unfortunately, uh, I guess Zoop has changed printers within the last uh handful of months, and the printers that we had had a little bit of of difficulty understanding what we were going for with the flip book and everything.
01:11:16.319 --> 01:11:24.000
We seem to have sorted all of that out, so I'm hoping that I will have news that things are are printed and ready to go in the near future.
01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:27.359
Um I my hope is to get that out soon.
01:11:27.920 --> 01:11:35.760
I would have loved to have already had it out um and have gone back and forth with uh with Zoop and with the printers about getting all of that done.
01:11:35.920 --> 01:11:41.520
Um so I will be happy to get that out to people as soon as we possibly can.
01:11:41.760 --> 01:11:59.520
Um yeah, as for Progressively Horrified, if you love horror movies or you hate horror movies and do want to hear about what's going on with them, or you're interested in the politics of horror, um, we watch a horror movie every week and we talk about the progressive politics or lack thereof in that movie.
01:11:59.840 --> 01:12:02.720
In some cases, definite lack thereof.
01:12:02.880 --> 01:12:12.399
But, you know, uh it is not an overly serious podcast, so we have a lot of fun, we make a lot of jokes, sometimes at the expense of these films.
01:12:12.720 --> 01:12:18.000
And sometimes just Ben Kahn says some of the weirdest shit I've ever heard in my life.
01:12:18.239 --> 01:12:23.520
I remember there was an episode where you had to explain Cowgirl to him, like to them, and I'm like, what?
01:12:24.479 --> 01:12:25.119
Yeah.
01:12:25.520 --> 01:12:29.439
Uh God, I I love my my co-host, Ben and Emily.
01:12:29.600 --> 01:12:30.800
We're both in comics.
01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:36.960
Ben is a writer as well, and Emily is an artist who, if you've read any of Princeless, is the artist of most of Princeless.
01:12:37.359 --> 01:12:43.439
Um they're they're lovely folks, and I am, I think, the big horror head of the group.
01:12:43.600 --> 01:13:00.800
Um, but there's a lot of like talking about all of this this weird stuff and all of the uh all of the weird stuff from the world we live in, and occasionally also the New York Knicks, because uh Ben Ben lives in the city and uh Oh congrats, I guess.
01:13:01.119 --> 01:13:01.600
Yeah.
01:13:01.840 --> 01:13:23.520
Well I I very distinctly remember recording an episode while game three of the playoffs of of the finals was going on, and starting the episode with Ben being like, Well, I guess it's fine that we're doing this now, because the Knicks are losing by like 20 points, and then by the end of the episode they had completed the greatest comeback in NBA history.
01:13:23.840 --> 01:13:30.720
Yeah, I I I don't follow basketball, but even when I heard that story, I I also live in upstate New York, so it was everywhere.
01:13:30.960 --> 01:13:31.920
Yeah, I imagine.
01:13:32.079 --> 01:13:37.199
But yeah, you know, we we talk about horror movies and occasionally pro wrestling on there as well.
01:13:37.359 --> 01:13:42.399
It's uh it's a lot of fun if you're into politics or you're into scary stuff, or both, or neither.
01:13:42.640 --> 01:13:50.159
Can be a lot of fun just uh to come hang out with us and uh listen to us talk about the stuff you maybe don't even want to watch.
01:13:50.800 --> 01:14:15.279
That's that's I think my wife does the editing on it, which I think is perfect for her because she gets to hear about the scary movies and what they're about without actually having to watch them, um, which I find is a not uncommon experience with with people in the podcast of like they are curious about horror movies, but they don't really like being scared or seeing a lot of like there's a lot of podcasts that I listen to that are basically that concept.
01:14:15.680 --> 01:14:16.159
Yeah.
01:14:16.399 --> 01:14:20.000
Uh a lot of the like podcasts about bad movies, especially.
01:14:20.079 --> 01:14:22.640
It's you know, watch it so you don't have to.
01:14:22.880 --> 01:14:23.039
Yeah.
01:14:23.520 --> 01:14:35.439
Like I listened to a podcast called Too Scary Didn't Watch, I think is the name of just listened to a few of them where it's like one person describes the plot of the horror movie to them and they did an episode on like martyrs.
01:14:35.520 --> 01:14:37.279
I'm like, why would you do this to your body?
01:14:37.439 --> 01:14:38.079
Oh my god.
01:14:38.800 --> 01:14:43.199
That is that is the rare horror movie I just had to fast forward through.
01:14:43.439 --> 01:14:46.640
So I was like, what is the what are we doing here?
01:14:46.800 --> 01:14:49.520
What is the point of this endless suffering?
01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:52.159
Um I'm dead inside, so I watched it twice.
01:14:52.319 --> 01:14:56.960
Um I was like, the trick is there is no point, and that's the point.
01:14:57.359 --> 01:15:00.239
Yeah, that that's basically the movie.
01:15:00.800 --> 01:15:01.199
Yeah.
01:15:01.439 --> 01:15:01.920
All right.
01:15:02.239 --> 01:15:05.439
Well, Jeremy, thank you so much for coming on.
01:15:05.600 --> 01:15:10.560
Uh I am really looking forward to owning a physical copy of Navigating for You Volume 2.
01:15:10.720 --> 01:15:17.840
Uh, definitely looking forward to that lights out episode of uh Progressively Horrified and probably a couple other other good ones coming up too.
01:15:18.079 --> 01:15:18.479
Oh, yeah.
01:15:18.560 --> 01:15:23.760
We will we will finally be talking about uh Alien Romulus.
01:15:23.840 --> 01:15:31.279
If you've been wondering if we will address a movie in which somebody's vagina explodes, yeah, we will.
01:15:32.800 --> 01:15:33.439
All right.
01:15:33.760 --> 01:15:35.279
Well, I'm looking forward to that.
01:15:35.439 --> 01:15:38.479
And uh well, thank you again so much for coming on.
01:15:38.560 --> 01:15:40.000
It's been a pleasure as always, sir.
01:15:40.159 --> 01:15:42.399
And I guess we're gonna get wrapped up for the night.
01:15:42.560 --> 01:15:44.000
Well, have a great night, everyone.
01:15:44.079 --> 01:15:45.119
Thanks again, Jeremy.
01:15:45.439 --> 01:15:46.000
Thank you.
01:15:46.319 --> 01:15:49.119
Well, it's time to close the book on today's episode.
01:15:49.359 --> 01:15:58.319
If you're a comic book creator and you have something for me to review or would like to interview a guest on the show, please send me an email at comicbooksbeyond at gmail.com.
01:15:58.399 --> 01:16:01.359
This offer is also available to fellow comic journalists.
01:16:01.520 --> 01:16:05.520
If you're a listener and you want to submit a question, I'd happily read it on the show.
01:16:05.680 --> 01:16:10.479
Please just let me if it let me know if it's okay to read and how you'd like to be created, credited.
01:16:10.640 --> 01:16:17.840
If you'd like to get a hold of me otherwise, I'm at comic books beyond on Blue Sky Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, but I mostly use Blue Sky.
01:16:18.000 --> 01:16:20.560
Uh, I am trying to use uh Instagram a little bit more though.
01:16:20.720 --> 01:16:24.560
If you'd like to show support for the show, please consider leaving a rating, review, or comment.
01:16:24.640 --> 01:16:29.600
I ask for honest reviews only, and I'm always looking for ways to improve the quality and content of the show.
01:16:29.760 --> 01:16:34.159
Alright, everyone, be good to each other and stick around for some gratitude and thanks.
01:16:36.399 --> 01:16:54.319
Comic Books Beyond would like to thank John Burkle and the crew of the Talking Comics Podcast, Brandon McNulty, Lisa and Bradford from Comic Book Couples Counseling, Alex Jaffe, Jeremy Whitley, Jimmy Gusparo and the crew of Comic Book Yeti, John Clyde III of Shadow and Flames with Magic Podcast, David Pepos, and all of our listeners and co hosts.
