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Welcome everyone back to Coaching and Thriving.
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Today's guest brings a great perspective to the conversation around what actually creates meaningful and lasting change.
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I'm excited to welcome Dr.
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David Kruger here today.
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Dr.
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Dave is an executive coach.
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He's an author.
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He's a longtime student of science, of the science behind human behavior, decision making and transformation.
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When I asked him how I should introduce him, he said, just say I'm a husband and a father and a and I'm a faculty member.
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If I'm worse than anything else, you know, it'll it'll prove itself in the conversation.
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So Dr.
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Dave, thank you so much for being here today.
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Um I'm I'm just really excited to have you.
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It's a privilege, Carrie.
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I'm looking forward to this.
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So, Dr.
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Dave, he also holds a special place in my own coaching journey.
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Um, Dave, I don't know if you remember this, but you were actually one of my very first mentors when I began my coach training with Coach Training Alliance way back in 2011, which just seems like yesterday.
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I did very well.
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And um today, Dr.
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Dave and I have the privilege of serving together as fellow faculty members here at Coach Training Alliance.
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And what I wanted to bring Dr.
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Dave on is because his work with neuroscience and human behavior and coaching, that that combination, he really has this fantastic ability to help others understand why and how lasting change happens.
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And then I've been able from every conversation that I've taken away from Dr.
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Dave, I've been able to translate that into understanding something practical that I can put forward as a coach, especially when I was in coach training alliance.
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So that's essentially what we're gonna explore today.
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What happens beneath the surface of a great coaching conversation?
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Why do some conversations create real change while others don't?
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And what can we do as coaches in our very next session to ensure that our clients have the opportunity to create the change that they want to create in their life?
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So from your perspective, Dr.
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Dave, what is actually happening when a coaching conversation creates a real shift for someone?
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Well, it's a good basic question because what we do uniquely in coaching among all the professions is we create a collaborative framework that we, the coach and the client, look together at what the client wants to do, where they want to go, and then pursue that in a way that creates the client's story with the client as point of reference.
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They're developing their story, we're helping them shape that, and that makes it unique in so many different ways.
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And our initial engagement is to really resonate with the client and focus with the client on their need, on what they want to focus on and where they want to get to, because that creates the map.
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Those are the two coordinates, where we are, where we want to go, and that lets us measure progress along the way.
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It lets us tell what's detour and what's distraction.
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So they're the author essentially of their own story, is what you're saying in coaching.
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They are holding the pen, they are the paintbrushes, however you want to look at it.
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They're the artist, they're the author, they're writing their own script.
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Yes, we commit to what we co-create, and we're co-creating a new story with a client, and they're determining the fundamentals of that.
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We're the catalyst for that.
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Love that.
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Such a great seat to sit in as a coach.
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And you know, as coaches, we can feel, we can hear, we can feel, we can sense, and obviously see when something shifts for a client.
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The moment when they remember something or they see themselves a little bit more clearly, they see their situation in a different way.
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But you know, we teach that that coaching brings that the shift, the moment where that doorway to opportunity opens for the client.
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But a lot of times we don't understand what's actually happening beneath the surface.
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And you just explained um the part about what we do as coaches in a collaborative way so that they're the author, they're writing their own script.
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What makes that different from simply giving someone advice?
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What happens and what's different when we just give someone advice or tell them what to do?
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Just to highlight what you said right before the question, every aspect, every algorithm and every code source that a client has will become manifest in the coaching conversation.
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So we will never have to go into questions about why or history or looking at something from the past, because if it's important, it will manifest here and now in the coaching conversation.
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Now, what happens when we give advice or directives or information?
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If I share a belief with you, Carrie, you're going to immediately compare what you believe about what I'm saying.
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If your belief agrees with me, you're going to find ways to confirm what I said.
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If it's opposite or different than what I say, you're going to find ways to refute it.
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So there's a confirmation bias or the entrenchment of a position that you had before I said anything, which in neuroscience is called the boomerang effect.
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You're even more entrenched in your original position because you've either agreed or opposed what I said.
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So it kind of keeps us stuck.
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Can for our listeners to understand that um kind of on a deeper level, can we play this out?
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Can we use an example?
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If I have a belief, can we name a belief, for example?
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And like how what would that look like if you were giving me advice and confirmation because you have and and I'll respond in an annotated way as your brain, okay?
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Okay, okay, okay, let's do this.
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So a belief that I have, um I believe that learning is endless.
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It's it's okay never ends.
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Okay.
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All right.
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Now that's an anatomical reality in your brain.
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It also happens to be the same anatomical reality in my brain.
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So I'm going to be thinking about the various ways that I apply and experience that myself.
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So I'm even more entrenched in that belief when you've highlighted it, because that's something I wanted to come to in the end of our interview, and you already introduced it.
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I'm way into that and share that belief.
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So I'm even more solidified and know that you get it because I get it, and it happens to be the same.
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That makes so much sense.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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So back to what makes coaching different from simply giving someone else advice.
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What I'm hearing you say is that when we leave our beliefs outside of the coaching conversation and our suggestions, we ask versus tell, we allow the client to have their own experience and to create whatever path forward they want to create without our own stuff getting in the way as a coach.
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Totally.
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Because we know, first of all, that information and facts and advice don't change someone's mind.
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That's not how the way our mind and brain work.
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But we are making the client the point of reference from the very beginning of the coaching conversation.
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What would you like us to focus on?
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The client determines the focus.
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We then want to know where the client wants to go with that, where they like to get to at the end of our conversation.
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So we've just created a map.
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Those are the two coordinates of any map, where you are, where you're going.
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When you have a map, you can measure progress along the way.
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You can tell what's deter and distraction.
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So we can facilitate the client developing a more complete and effective story just by having a game plan like that in mind.
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Okay.
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So our job is not to create the path or create the answer for the client.
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It's to create the space and the conditions that allow the client to write that themselves, to discover that for themselves.
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Exactly.
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Uh, and whenever we shift to our point of reference to give advice or suggestions or hints, we're changing the point of reference from the client development, client story to our story.
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So that's kind of shifting in a way that what does it say to the client?
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You know, I'm going to give you a suggestion, I'm going to give you a couple of hints.
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Does that mirror to the client that I don't quite believe in you or your ability to create it yourself?
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So I need to run in a play here.
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I need to ghostwrite this.
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That doesn't do what we think it does.
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It may foreclose the exploration and make it easier for both coach and client just to get an answer and then move on.
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Never mind that it's not going to work.
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But it also, in effect, says to the client, I don't quite believe that you're going to be able to do this by yourself.
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I need to run in a play here.
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That's a kind of codependency, to use a word from a totally different discipline that we do not want to foster.
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We're about helping the client develop their own story.
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So when they disconnect from us at the end of the coaching call, they have a model, a gameplay, they have the model of the map.
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They have a game plan of how to do it themselves so that they can begin to repeat it.
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So we're helping them create a new model to approach things simply by the way we do it with them.
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Wow.
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So there's ownership there, there's buy-in, and there's this internal belief that essentially the coaching conversation helped them embody, which is I'm capable, I can do this, and I can believe in myself because this coaching conversation, my coach is mirroring back to me, I believe in you, essentially.
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Exactly.
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It's interesting that you use the word codependency because um I tell my students that all the time.
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I said it is nearly impossible to be codependent when you are in the best coaching practices as a coach.
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And it's one of the reasons I love coaching.
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It helped me.
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One of the ripple effects for me was to do less overfunctioning in relationships and overdoing.
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Um, it really made me, it helped me to sit back and kind of relinquish control in different ways in my life.
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That's a great way to put it.
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Yeah.
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It's impossible to be codependent when you're truly in the co-creative relationship with, you know, as coach client.
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You know, if we if we think about it as an analogy of being a parent and our child is learning to tie their shoes, it would be a lot easier if we were to kind of jump in and help and do it for them.
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But what it would say is, I don't quite believe in your ability to do this yourself.
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I need to function for you.
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So they're downloading something that is not going to be most beneficial.
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So whenever we jump in and give advice and uh directives or whatever to a client, we're kind of saying the same thing rather than keeping the point of reference with the client developing their story in the best way possible and tolerating the uncertainty and the trepidation about being in new territory without foreclosing that with an answer that will only end the uncertainty right and discomfort right now.
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And I would imagine if I can tolerate that uncertainty, being comfortable as a coach, knowing that I have no idea how my client's going to answer this, but I'm okay with that.
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That they would correct me if I'm wrong, or maybe you can explain this, that I'm almost modeling to my client, it's okay.
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Uncertainty is okay.
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That's actually where ideas come from.
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And creative thinking is when we're in that space of I don't know.
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So being in an I don't know space is okay.
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I trust you.
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Keep going.
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And that's a whole framework that you mentioned at the beginning about learning and thinking about things in a new and different way.
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So the framework and the mindset of engagement internally with oneself and questions and with a coach is a whole mindset that boots up a particular kind of neurochemical system that has to do with oxytocin, with connection and bonding.
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We're connected with somebody who's exploring with us.
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Now, the first few words of a conversation can also go the other direction.
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If they're heard as judgmental or critical or telling somebody what to do, it can boot up an entirely different neurochemical system that has to do with trust and protection.
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And, you know, I'm gonna stick with what I already know.
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So the first few words of conversation boot up a particular mindset that processes the whole remainder of the conversation.
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That's why it's so important how we show up as coaches and our being as a coach before the before the words even come out of our mouth.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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So it is about that creating those.
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I think of the word safety.
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We're creating psychological safety so that instead of the client, like what you just said, instead of the client reverting back to old ways of being, I'm just gonna hang on and cling on tightly to my old ways of doing things, but I'm don't feel safe to see what's on the other side of that door, right?
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Um you move to the collaborative framework to do it together, to listen and explore together.
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That's why that initial collaborative framework, that initial resonance with a client and starting together really makes sense.
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I have I have my students draw a circle in the middle of a page.
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And then inside that circle, draw a stick figure.
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And assume that stick figure is your client.
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Your challenge as a coach is to get inside that circle so you can go someplace new together.
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Outside the circle, somebody's not really going to listen to you nearly as much as when you get inside.
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And that collaborative framework, let's do this.
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Let's look at developing the point of reference from the client's that's what gets you inside the circle.
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Now, here's a supervision I have way back in the day.
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My my daughter would say, back when you were skiing on wooden skis and had wooden braces, but back as a as a psychoanalyst, I offered an interpretation to a woman executive, and I thought it was going to be very helpful.
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There was a long pause, and she said, No, Kruger, first you've got to be with me before I can go someplace new with you.
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Wow.
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The most succinct and elegant supervision I've ever had about the process we're talking about right now.
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You have to be with me before go ahead, say that again.
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Before I can go someplace new with you, we have to be with our client together inside that circle.
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Then we can go someplace new together, determined by the client.
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And that's the model they're going to use after we disconnect and they're on their own.
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I love that.
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I love I love that.
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It's, you know, helping being with our client means getting inside that circle and truly understanding them, what it's like to be them.
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I always I tell my students, your job is to be the student of your client.
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Let them teach you and tell you all about what it's like to be them.
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Look at that client as they are the expert in everything that they want in life.
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Exactly.
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And they're the experts in how they're going to get there, what needs to happen, what needs to change, and you get to be the student of the client.
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Yes.
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So we know that being seen, you know, feeling seen and heard.
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That's a big part of what we're helping facilitate with our clients.
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And that creates that psychological safety for exploration, deeper thinking.
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That's how change can happen.
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But we also know that insight alone doesn't necessarily create change.
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We can have a wonderful realization and still do absolutely nothing with it.
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Why do some great insights fade away while others lead to lasting change?
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What's the difference there in your perspective?
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A key question.
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Just changing a behavior doesn't make it permanent.
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To make a change last, we have to incorporate it into our operating system.
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Now, our operating system is 90 to 95 percent of what we do and think and feel on an ongoing basis.
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So we can look at and examine that to revise it in a way, because that operating system is identity.
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You know, for example, if you decide you're gonna work out every day for 20 minutes, that's an independent decision six days a week, if that's what you decide.
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Now, another way of doing that is to say, no, this is this is part of who I am at two o'clock every uh afternoon.
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I'm gonna be working out so that it's not a decision you have to make again and again, because we know from neuroscience, every time you have to make a new decision, the the yeses or the decision to do it falls off a little bit.
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Now that has some implication in how we charge our fees, but if you know, for for me, at two o'clock every day I'm working out.
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It's not a decision, it's just part of who I am.
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It's like getting up, it's like going to work, whatever.
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So that's something you don't, it's it's like making a good decision.
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You you can decide to make one good decision to save money for the future for retirement.
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You decide to have$250 withdrawn from your checking account automatically, first of every month, put into a retirement session.
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It's one good decision that can change the rest of your life.
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So somebody calls and uh a known figure who I love to work with says, I can work with you Tuesdays at two o'clock.
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And I say, I'm I'm sorry I don't have that time.
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Let's look at another time.
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So make it part of an Identity.
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That's what we do, and that's what we help our clients do to incorporate it into their operating system and a part of their routine behavior so they don't have to think about it.
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Okay, I'm getting it.
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So when we as coaches ask a question like who do you need to be in order to commit to exercising at 2 p.m.
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tomorrow?
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What will it mean when you commit to exercising at 2 p.m.?
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What will that do for you?
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What will the ripple effect be?
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Um, what opportunities might that open up for you?
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How will it feel?
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What will that be like?
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Those types of questions help that client tap into their the identity.
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I think I think that's part of the um part of the process, and and you describe the overview very well.
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More fundamentally, where exactly do you start?
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You do not need motivation to do something in a new or different way.
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You only need two things a plan and to stick to it.
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I described a plan at two o'clock every day, working out.
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I I work with with athletes and actors.
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They are not motivated to go to the gym and work out every day in in the off season or when they're not working, but they do it because they know that that's what they need to do in order to do what's next.
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:46.160
So having a plan and sticking to it are all that you need.
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:49.599
Motivation is absolutely not necessary.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:58.000
Motivation may come, identity will follow, the routine will get grooved and become automatic.
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:09.519
But in the beginning, you just need a plan, you need to stick to it, and that will develop its own routine and its own set of behaviors.
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:11.920
It's really that simple.
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:17.119
And I think sometimes we make this more difficult, right?
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:18.799
Yeah.
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:34.160
Well what kind of shifting gears here we're talking about great coaching and what constitutes great coaching.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:44.559
What common habits do you think unintentionally maybe get in the way of great coaching for new coaches?
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:46.480
What what do you see with your students?
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:50.319
What common habits get in the way of great coaching?
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:58.240
Well, I think I think that depends on where you are in coaching and in the process.
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:15.039
In the beginning, it's hard for us to recognize to not talk in paragraphs or ask lengthy questions or run in plays or advice or things that we kind of know that we know that this is going to be better.
00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:24.240
So it's really working on keeping the client as point of reference, developing their story.
00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:36.000
And then throughout to look at how can we help the client incorporate what they're doing to develop a new and better story.
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:43.920
So we're listening for the things that both facilitate and interfere.
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:55.440
You know, for example, we will hear, as I mentioned, we will hear everything that we need to hear from the client in the content and the process.
00:25:55.759 --> 00:26:00.720
We need we'll hear, for example, a limiting assumption.
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.960
Well, you know, I need to feel confident before I really do that.
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:07.920
We'll hear a false assumption.
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:15.759
I I need to get comfortable before I launch my website or announce my practice.
00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:30.960
We'll hear various things and listen for whether they facilitate or interfere or may not make a difference in the client's development of whatever it is they want to engage us to help them with.
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:38.480
It's a really great job that we have as coaches because they get to decide where they want to go.
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:47.519
And then our job is to sit back and listen to what's helping you move, what's helping them move forward and what's holding them back essentially.
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:50.000
Yes, exactly.
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:53.359
I've enjoyed it so much more.
00:26:53.440 --> 00:27:00.799
I didn't think I could enjoy anything as much as I did in all the years I practiced uh psychiatry psychoanalysis.
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:04.640
But this is even more fun, more creative, more engaging.
00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:08.799
I am so totally glad I'm doing what I'm doing.
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:22.160
And it's a privilege to work with the coaches I train and collaborate with and do mentor coaching with clients because it's it's so much fun and it's so creative, each in a different way.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:24.319
It's funny, I was out to dinner recently.
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:31.519
I was out to dinner recently, and someone I someone asked me what I do, and you know, I told them all about coaching.
00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:35.519
And and his next question was, what do you love about coaching?
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:38.400
And I said, the freedom and the creativity.
00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:45.200
The freedom and the creativity because it is it's fun, it is a creative process.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.160
I never know where the conversations are going to go.
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:48.720
Yeah.
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:50.400
Um yeah.
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:53.039
I so I'm I'm right there with you.
00:27:53.920 --> 00:28:14.319
Tell us a little bit about um before we end, just because you brought it up, you have experience in other aspects of um your profession where you can you said you came into coaching, and this is different from what you were doing in the past and that you really enjoy it.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:21.039
Tell us a little bit about how you got to be here today and what was it that drew you to coaching?
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:34.720
Well, um, I had practiced for 25 years as a psychiatrist psychoanalyst and did an early retirement, and I had planned to ranch and write, and that lasted about two months.
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:37.680
And I really honestly I hadn't thought that through.
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:52.240
So I I reflected back there a couple of uh analytic patients, uh, one a company owner, another executive, who had been to at the time one of the only executive coaches in the world.
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:55.359
They had both been actually to the same person in Canada.
00:28:55.519 --> 00:28:57.200
They didn't know each other, didn't know.
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:15.119
And I was impressed with what they what they did and what they were able to do with that, and then began referring patients after they had ended treatment to a mentor coach for business aspects.
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:18.960
So then it was something I recognized very quickly.
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:26.480
It was something I wanted to do and did the training at CTA and the rest is history.
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:28.160
The rest is history.
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:31.599
Oh, it's a it's a beautiful story.
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:46.400
And looking back, what advice would you give to new coaches who really want to dive into this journey?
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:53.759
Um, older coaches, the coaches with more experience that want to continue to deepen their impact.
00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:59.839
What keeps you curious after so many years in this field?
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:06.880
Well, I think you asked some or answered some very important questions about your focus and your passion.
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:19.200
Uh, a couple of things that I think are fundamental, which is really what we do with our clients to create a plan and stick to it for learning and developing yourself as a coach and your practice.
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.880
And that would include working with a mentor coach.
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:29.519
So that's a part of purpose and passion uh and and direction.
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:36.000
Cause it it's that's what I love about coaching, kind of circling back.
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:40.799
It's it's a never-ending becoming.
00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:43.519
You never truly arrive.
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:53.039
Every client is new, every conversation is new, every shift in conversation is different and new.
00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:55.839
And it just continues.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:58.240
The growth and the learning just continues.
00:30:58.880 --> 00:30:59.599
Exactly.
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:00.720
Yes.
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:03.200
Love it.
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:04.000
Well, Dr.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:06.000
Dave, thank you so much.
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:11.200
I I love that this conversation has brought us together here.
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:12.960
It's always lovely talking to you.
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:32.319
And I love that we really got to touch on what makes a coaching conversation so important and that that human connection piece around allowing someone the space to explore and um getting into the practical application.
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:37.119
You know, how do we turn awareness into meaningful change and the piece about motivation?
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.440
And we really just need the plan and and and sticking to it.
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:45.359
And that's that's one of my biggest takeaways from from our conversation today.
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:54.400
So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and for helping us all understand what happens below the surface in a great coaching conversation.
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:55.759
You made it very fun.
00:31:55.920 --> 00:31:57.759
May I share a couple of quick quotes?
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:00.880
Please would love, yes, love to.
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:04.400
Uh, and this is from Maya Angelo.
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:09.279
And even though it's about parents, I think it applies to coaches.
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:16.880
The greatest gift you can give your child is when their face lights up when the parent enters the room.
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:19.359
Same with coaches and clients.
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:22.720
And the other is from my favorite grandmother.
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:25.759
If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:28.079
I love it.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:32.000
That is great.
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:36.720
I'm actually gonna write that one down, and I and I agree with the Maya Angelo quote.
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:39.759
Um, it's and that's what we get to do.
00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:53.839
That's that's the gift we get to give people, is and and this is where the the the other sort of quote is is why I got into initially psychiatry cycling, and it's certainly why I got into coaching.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:07.200
My favorite athletic coach for all of my time kept saying one thing your mind is the most powerful thing in the world, and that still is orienting for me.
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:11.519
Oh, I love this.
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:12.720
It's so true.
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:13.680
It's so true.
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:19.359
Well, thank you again for sharing everything, quotes, wisdom, and all today.
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:21.279
And for my privilege.
00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:22.960
We appreciate it.
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:24.880
Thanks, Carrie.
00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:17.519
Welcome everyone back to Coaching and Thriving.
00:00:17.760 --> 00:00:30.079
Today's guest brings a great perspective to the conversation around what actually creates meaningful and lasting change.
00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:32.079
I'm excited to welcome Dr.
00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:33.759
David Kruger here today.
00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:34.240
Dr.
00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:36.479
Dave is an executive coach.
00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:37.679
He's an author.
00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:43.759
He's a longtime student of science, of the science behind human behavior, decision making and transformation.
00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:50.880
When I asked him how I should introduce him, he said, just say I'm a husband and a father and a and I'm a faculty member.
00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:55.759
If I'm worse than anything else, you know, it'll it'll prove itself in the conversation.
00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:57.759
So Dr.
00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:00.880
Dave, thank you so much for being here today.
00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:03.840
Um I'm I'm just really excited to have you.
00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:05.359
It's a privilege, Carrie.
00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:06.560
I'm looking forward to this.
00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:07.840
So, Dr.
00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:11.760
Dave, he also holds a special place in my own coaching journey.
00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:24.719
Um, Dave, I don't know if you remember this, but you were actually one of my very first mentors when I began my coach training with Coach Training Alliance way back in 2011, which just seems like yesterday.
00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:26.239
I did very well.
00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:29.519
And um today, Dr.
00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:37.519
Dave and I have the privilege of serving together as fellow faculty members here at Coach Training Alliance.
00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:39.920
And what I wanted to bring Dr.
00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:58.079
Dave on is because his work with neuroscience and human behavior and coaching, that that combination, he really has this fantastic ability to help others understand why and how lasting change happens.
00:01:58.879 --> 00:02:03.359
And then I've been able from every conversation that I've taken away from Dr.
00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:15.039
Dave, I've been able to translate that into understanding something practical that I can put forward as a coach, especially when I was in coach training alliance.
00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:17.520
So that's essentially what we're gonna explore today.
00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:22.479
What happens beneath the surface of a great coaching conversation?
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Why do some conversations create real change while others don't?
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And what can we do as coaches in our very next session to ensure that our clients have the opportunity to create the change that they want to create in their life?
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So from your perspective, Dr.
00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:55.759
Dave, what is actually happening when a coaching conversation creates a real shift for someone?
00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:24.240
Well, it's a good basic question because what we do uniquely in coaching among all the professions is we create a collaborative framework that we, the coach and the client, look together at what the client wants to do, where they want to go, and then pursue that in a way that creates the client's story with the client as point of reference.
00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:34.080
They're developing their story, we're helping them shape that, and that makes it unique in so many different ways.
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And our initial engagement is to really resonate with the client and focus with the client on their need, on what they want to focus on and where they want to get to, because that creates the map.
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Those are the two coordinates, where we are, where we want to go, and that lets us measure progress along the way.
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It lets us tell what's detour and what's distraction.
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So they're the author essentially of their own story, is what you're saying in coaching.
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They are holding the pen, they are the paintbrushes, however you want to look at it.
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They're the artist, they're the author, they're writing their own script.
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Yes, we commit to what we co-create, and we're co-creating a new story with a client, and they're determining the fundamentals of that.
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We're the catalyst for that.
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Love that.
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Such a great seat to sit in as a coach.
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And you know, as coaches, we can feel, we can hear, we can feel, we can sense, and obviously see when something shifts for a client.
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The moment when they remember something or they see themselves a little bit more clearly, they see their situation in a different way.
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But you know, we teach that that coaching brings that the shift, the moment where that doorway to opportunity opens for the client.
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But a lot of times we don't understand what's actually happening beneath the surface.
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And you just explained um the part about what we do as coaches in a collaborative way so that they're the author, they're writing their own script.
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What makes that different from simply giving someone advice?
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What happens and what's different when we just give someone advice or tell them what to do?
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Just to highlight what you said right before the question, every aspect, every algorithm and every code source that a client has will become manifest in the coaching conversation.
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So we will never have to go into questions about why or history or looking at something from the past, because if it's important, it will manifest here and now in the coaching conversation.
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Now, what happens when we give advice or directives or information?
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If I share a belief with you, Carrie, you're going to immediately compare what you believe about what I'm saying.
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If your belief agrees with me, you're going to find ways to confirm what I said.
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If it's opposite or different than what I say, you're going to find ways to refute it.
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So there's a confirmation bias or the entrenchment of a position that you had before I said anything, which in neuroscience is called the boomerang effect.
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You're even more entrenched in your original position because you've either agreed or opposed what I said.
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So it kind of keeps us stuck.
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Can for our listeners to understand that um kind of on a deeper level, can we play this out?
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Can we use an example?
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If I have a belief, can we name a belief, for example?
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And like how what would that look like if you were giving me advice and confirmation because you have and and I'll respond in an annotated way as your brain, okay?
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Okay, okay, okay, let's do this.
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So a belief that I have, um I believe that learning is endless.
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It's it's okay never ends.
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Okay.
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All right.
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Now that's an anatomical reality in your brain.
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It also happens to be the same anatomical reality in my brain.
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So I'm going to be thinking about the various ways that I apply and experience that myself.
00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:15.040
So I'm even more entrenched in that belief when you've highlighted it, because that's something I wanted to come to in the end of our interview, and you already introduced it.
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I'm way into that and share that belief.
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So I'm even more solidified and know that you get it because I get it, and it happens to be the same.
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That makes so much sense.
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Okay.
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Okay.
00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:39.519
So back to what makes coaching different from simply giving someone else advice.
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What I'm hearing you say is that when we leave our beliefs outside of the coaching conversation and our suggestions, we ask versus tell, we allow the client to have their own experience and to create whatever path forward they want to create without our own stuff getting in the way as a coach.
00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:04.559
Totally.
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Because we know, first of all, that information and facts and advice don't change someone's mind.
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That's not how the way our mind and brain work.
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But we are making the client the point of reference from the very beginning of the coaching conversation.
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What would you like us to focus on?
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The client determines the focus.
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We then want to know where the client wants to go with that, where they like to get to at the end of our conversation.
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So we've just created a map.
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Those are the two coordinates of any map, where you are, where you're going.
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When you have a map, you can measure progress along the way.
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You can tell what's deter and distraction.
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So we can facilitate the client developing a more complete and effective story just by having a game plan like that in mind.
00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:01.120
Okay.
00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:08.080
So our job is not to create the path or create the answer for the client.
00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:18.240
It's to create the space and the conditions that allow the client to write that themselves, to discover that for themselves.
00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:19.919
Exactly.
00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:33.919
Uh, and whenever we shift to our point of reference to give advice or suggestions or hints, we're changing the point of reference from the client development, client story to our story.
00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:39.919
So that's kind of shifting in a way that what does it say to the client?
00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:43.440
You know, I'm going to give you a suggestion, I'm going to give you a couple of hints.
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Does that mirror to the client that I don't quite believe in you or your ability to create it yourself?
00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:52.240
So I need to run in a play here.
00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:54.159
I need to ghostwrite this.
00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:56.879
That doesn't do what we think it does.
00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:04.720
It may foreclose the exploration and make it easier for both coach and client just to get an answer and then move on.
00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:06.960
Never mind that it's not going to work.
00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:16.159
But it also, in effect, says to the client, I don't quite believe that you're going to be able to do this by yourself.
00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:18.159
I need to run in a play here.
00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:25.200
That's a kind of codependency, to use a word from a totally different discipline that we do not want to foster.
00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:28.320
We're about helping the client develop their own story.
00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:38.559
So when they disconnect from us at the end of the coaching call, they have a model, a gameplay, they have the model of the map.
00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:44.320
They have a game plan of how to do it themselves so that they can begin to repeat it.
00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:52.080
So we're helping them create a new model to approach things simply by the way we do it with them.
00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:53.279
Wow.
00:11:53.440 --> 00:12:11.519
So there's ownership there, there's buy-in, and there's this internal belief that essentially the coaching conversation helped them embody, which is I'm capable, I can do this, and I can believe in myself because this coaching conversation, my coach is mirroring back to me, I believe in you, essentially.
00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:13.120
Exactly.
00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:18.639
It's interesting that you use the word codependency because um I tell my students that all the time.
00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:28.080
I said it is nearly impossible to be codependent when you are in the best coaching practices as a coach.
00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.440
And it's one of the reasons I love coaching.
00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:32.399
It helped me.
00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:42.240
One of the ripple effects for me was to do less overfunctioning in relationships and overdoing.
00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:51.840
Um, it really made me, it helped me to sit back and kind of relinquish control in different ways in my life.
00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:53.519
That's a great way to put it.
00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:53.919
Yeah.
00:12:54.080 --> 00:13:02.960
It's impossible to be codependent when you're truly in the co-creative relationship with, you know, as coach client.
00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:18.240
You know, if we if we think about it as an analogy of being a parent and our child is learning to tie their shoes, it would be a lot easier if we were to kind of jump in and help and do it for them.
00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:24.559
But what it would say is, I don't quite believe in your ability to do this yourself.
00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:26.320
I need to function for you.
00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:30.960
So they're downloading something that is not going to be most beneficial.
00:13:31.200 --> 00:14:03.440
So whenever we jump in and give advice and uh directives or whatever to a client, we're kind of saying the same thing rather than keeping the point of reference with the client developing their story in the best way possible and tolerating the uncertainty and the trepidation about being in new territory without foreclosing that with an answer that will only end the uncertainty right and discomfort right now.
00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:18.559
And I would imagine if I can tolerate that uncertainty, being comfortable as a coach, knowing that I have no idea how my client's going to answer this, but I'm okay with that.
00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:28.399
That they would correct me if I'm wrong, or maybe you can explain this, that I'm almost modeling to my client, it's okay.
00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:29.919
Uncertainty is okay.
00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:33.120
That's actually where ideas come from.
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:36.399
And creative thinking is when we're in that space of I don't know.
00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:39.120
So being in an I don't know space is okay.
00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:40.480
I trust you.
00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:41.679
Keep going.
00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:54.000
And that's a whole framework that you mentioned at the beginning about learning and thinking about things in a new and different way.
00:14:54.240 --> 00:15:19.279
So the framework and the mindset of engagement internally with oneself and questions and with a coach is a whole mindset that boots up a particular kind of neurochemical system that has to do with oxytocin, with connection and bonding.
00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:22.559
We're connected with somebody who's exploring with us.
00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:27.519
Now, the first few words of a conversation can also go the other direction.
00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:40.960
If they're heard as judgmental or critical or telling somebody what to do, it can boot up an entirely different neurochemical system that has to do with trust and protection.
00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:44.639
And, you know, I'm gonna stick with what I already know.
00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:53.519
So the first few words of conversation boot up a particular mindset that processes the whole remainder of the conversation.
00:15:54.159 --> 00:16:03.039
That's why it's so important how we show up as coaches and our being as a coach before the before the words even come out of our mouth.
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:05.039
Exactly.
00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:05.840
Yeah.
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:08.799
So it is about that creating those.
00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:10.639
I think of the word safety.
00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:31.279
We're creating psychological safety so that instead of the client, like what you just said, instead of the client reverting back to old ways of being, I'm just gonna hang on and cling on tightly to my old ways of doing things, but I'm don't feel safe to see what's on the other side of that door, right?
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:38.399
Um you move to the collaborative framework to do it together, to listen and explore together.
00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:49.759
That's why that initial collaborative framework, that initial resonance with a client and starting together really makes sense.
00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:55.039
I have I have my students draw a circle in the middle of a page.
00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:58.320
And then inside that circle, draw a stick figure.
00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.039
And assume that stick figure is your client.
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:07.440
Your challenge as a coach is to get inside that circle so you can go someplace new together.
00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:13.920
Outside the circle, somebody's not really going to listen to you nearly as much as when you get inside.
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:18.079
And that collaborative framework, let's do this.
00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:25.680
Let's look at developing the point of reference from the client's that's what gets you inside the circle.
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.759
Now, here's a supervision I have way back in the day.
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:44.799
My my daughter would say, back when you were skiing on wooden skis and had wooden braces, but back as a as a psychoanalyst, I offered an interpretation to a woman executive, and I thought it was going to be very helpful.
00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:53.440
There was a long pause, and she said, No, Kruger, first you've got to be with me before I can go someplace new with you.
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:54.799
Wow.
00:17:55.119 --> 00:18:02.000
The most succinct and elegant supervision I've ever had about the process we're talking about right now.
00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:10.319
You have to be with me before go ahead, say that again.
00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:15.759
Before I can go someplace new with you, we have to be with our client together inside that circle.
00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:20.640
Then we can go someplace new together, determined by the client.
00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:26.240
And that's the model they're going to use after we disconnect and they're on their own.
00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:28.720
I love that.
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:30.400
I love I love that.
00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:42.240
It's, you know, helping being with our client means getting inside that circle and truly understanding them, what it's like to be them.
00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:47.519
I always I tell my students, your job is to be the student of your client.
00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:52.000
Let them teach you and tell you all about what it's like to be them.
00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:57.519
Look at that client as they are the expert in everything that they want in life.
00:18:57.759 --> 00:18:58.160
Exactly.
00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:04.880
And they're the experts in how they're going to get there, what needs to happen, what needs to change, and you get to be the student of the client.
00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:08.079
Yes.
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:14.880
So we know that being seen, you know, feeling seen and heard.
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:19.519
That's a big part of what we're helping facilitate with our clients.
00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:24.559
And that creates that psychological safety for exploration, deeper thinking.
00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:26.799
That's how change can happen.
00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:32.640
But we also know that insight alone doesn't necessarily create change.
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:38.720
We can have a wonderful realization and still do absolutely nothing with it.
00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:46.240
Why do some great insights fade away while others lead to lasting change?
00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:49.200
What's the difference there in your perspective?
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:50.960
A key question.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:55.680
Just changing a behavior doesn't make it permanent.
00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:01.759
To make a change last, we have to incorporate it into our operating system.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:10.160
Now, our operating system is 90 to 95 percent of what we do and think and feel on an ongoing basis.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:19.839
So we can look at and examine that to revise it in a way, because that operating system is identity.
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:37.279
You know, for example, if you decide you're gonna work out every day for 20 minutes, that's an independent decision six days a week, if that's what you decide.
00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:46.240
Now, another way of doing that is to say, no, this is this is part of who I am at two o'clock every uh afternoon.
00:20:46.480 --> 00:21:03.039
I'm gonna be working out so that it's not a decision you have to make again and again, because we know from neuroscience, every time you have to make a new decision, the the yeses or the decision to do it falls off a little bit.
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:12.319
Now that has some implication in how we charge our fees, but if you know, for for me, at two o'clock every day I'm working out.
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:15.039
It's not a decision, it's just part of who I am.
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:18.880
It's like getting up, it's like going to work, whatever.
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:23.759
So that's something you don't, it's it's like making a good decision.
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:30.160
You you can decide to make one good decision to save money for the future for retirement.
00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:39.359
You decide to have$250 withdrawn from your checking account automatically, first of every month, put into a retirement session.
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:42.319
It's one good decision that can change the rest of your life.
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:52.880
So somebody calls and uh a known figure who I love to work with says, I can work with you Tuesdays at two o'clock.
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:55.920
And I say, I'm I'm sorry I don't have that time.
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:58.000
Let's look at another time.
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:00.720
So make it part of an Identity.
00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:14.240
That's what we do, and that's what we help our clients do to incorporate it into their operating system and a part of their routine behavior so they don't have to think about it.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:16.400
Okay, I'm getting it.
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:32.240
So when we as coaches ask a question like who do you need to be in order to commit to exercising at 2 p.m.
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:33.200
tomorrow?
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:38.319
What will it mean when you commit to exercising at 2 p.m.?
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:39.839
What will that do for you?
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:41.920
What will the ripple effect be?
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:45.119
Um, what opportunities might that open up for you?
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:46.319
How will it feel?
00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:47.519
What will that be like?
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:54.400
Those types of questions help that client tap into their the identity.
00:22:55.119 --> 00:23:01.920
I think I think that's part of the um part of the process, and and you describe the overview very well.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:07.440
More fundamentally, where exactly do you start?
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:14.400
You do not need motivation to do something in a new or different way.
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:20.640
You only need two things a plan and to stick to it.
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:26.319
I described a plan at two o'clock every day, working out.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.240
I I work with with athletes and actors.
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:41.279
They are not motivated to go to the gym and work out every day in in the off season or when they're not working, but they do it because they know that that's what they need to do in order to do what's next.
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:46.160
So having a plan and sticking to it are all that you need.
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:49.599
Motivation is absolutely not necessary.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:58.000
Motivation may come, identity will follow, the routine will get grooved and become automatic.
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:09.519
But in the beginning, you just need a plan, you need to stick to it, and that will develop its own routine and its own set of behaviors.
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:11.920
It's really that simple.
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:17.119
And I think sometimes we make this more difficult, right?
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:18.799
Yeah.
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:34.160
Well what kind of shifting gears here we're talking about great coaching and what constitutes great coaching.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:44.559
What common habits do you think unintentionally maybe get in the way of great coaching for new coaches?
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:46.480
What what do you see with your students?
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:50.319
What common habits get in the way of great coaching?
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:58.240
Well, I think I think that depends on where you are in coaching and in the process.
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:15.039
In the beginning, it's hard for us to recognize to not talk in paragraphs or ask lengthy questions or run in plays or advice or things that we kind of know that we know that this is going to be better.
00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:24.240
So it's really working on keeping the client as point of reference, developing their story.
00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:36.000
And then throughout to look at how can we help the client incorporate what they're doing to develop a new and better story.
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:43.920
So we're listening for the things that both facilitate and interfere.
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:55.440
You know, for example, we will hear, as I mentioned, we will hear everything that we need to hear from the client in the content and the process.
00:25:55.759 --> 00:26:00.720
We need we'll hear, for example, a limiting assumption.
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.960
Well, you know, I need to feel confident before I really do that.
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:07.920
We'll hear a false assumption.
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:15.759
I I need to get comfortable before I launch my website or announce my practice.
00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:30.960
We'll hear various things and listen for whether they facilitate or interfere or may not make a difference in the client's development of whatever it is they want to engage us to help them with.
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:38.480
It's a really great job that we have as coaches because they get to decide where they want to go.
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:47.519
And then our job is to sit back and listen to what's helping you move, what's helping them move forward and what's holding them back essentially.
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:50.000
Yes, exactly.
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:53.359
I've enjoyed it so much more.
00:26:53.440 --> 00:27:00.799
I didn't think I could enjoy anything as much as I did in all the years I practiced uh psychiatry psychoanalysis.
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:04.640
But this is even more fun, more creative, more engaging.
00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:08.799
I am so totally glad I'm doing what I'm doing.
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:22.160
And it's a privilege to work with the coaches I train and collaborate with and do mentor coaching with clients because it's it's so much fun and it's so creative, each in a different way.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:24.319
It's funny, I was out to dinner recently.
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:31.519
I was out to dinner recently, and someone I someone asked me what I do, and you know, I told them all about coaching.
00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:35.519
And and his next question was, what do you love about coaching?
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:38.400
And I said, the freedom and the creativity.
00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:45.200
The freedom and the creativity because it is it's fun, it is a creative process.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.160
I never know where the conversations are going to go.
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:48.720
Yeah.
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:50.400
Um yeah.
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:53.039
I so I'm I'm right there with you.
00:27:53.920 --> 00:28:14.319
Tell us a little bit about um before we end, just because you brought it up, you have experience in other aspects of um your profession where you can you said you came into coaching, and this is different from what you were doing in the past and that you really enjoy it.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:21.039
Tell us a little bit about how you got to be here today and what was it that drew you to coaching?
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:34.720
Well, um, I had practiced for 25 years as a psychiatrist psychoanalyst and did an early retirement, and I had planned to ranch and write, and that lasted about two months.
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:37.680
And I really honestly I hadn't thought that through.
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:52.240
So I I reflected back there a couple of uh analytic patients, uh, one a company owner, another executive, who had been to at the time one of the only executive coaches in the world.
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:55.359
They had both been actually to the same person in Canada.
00:28:55.519 --> 00:28:57.200
They didn't know each other, didn't know.
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:15.119
And I was impressed with what they what they did and what they were able to do with that, and then began referring patients after they had ended treatment to a mentor coach for business aspects.
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:18.960
So then it was something I recognized very quickly.
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:26.480
It was something I wanted to do and did the training at CTA and the rest is history.
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:28.160
The rest is history.
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:31.599
Oh, it's a it's a beautiful story.
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:46.400
And looking back, what advice would you give to new coaches who really want to dive into this journey?
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:53.759
Um, older coaches, the coaches with more experience that want to continue to deepen their impact.
00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:59.839
What keeps you curious after so many years in this field?
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:06.880
Well, I think you asked some or answered some very important questions about your focus and your passion.
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:19.200
Uh, a couple of things that I think are fundamental, which is really what we do with our clients to create a plan and stick to it for learning and developing yourself as a coach and your practice.
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.880
And that would include working with a mentor coach.
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:29.519
So that's a part of purpose and passion uh and and direction.
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:36.000
Cause it it's that's what I love about coaching, kind of circling back.
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:40.799
It's it's a never-ending becoming.
00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:43.519
You never truly arrive.
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:53.039
Every client is new, every conversation is new, every shift in conversation is different and new.
00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:55.839
And it just continues.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:58.240
The growth and the learning just continues.
00:30:58.880 --> 00:30:59.599
Exactly.
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:00.720
Yes.
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:03.200
Love it.
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:04.000
Well, Dr.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:06.000
Dave, thank you so much.
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:11.200
I I love that this conversation has brought us together here.
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:12.960
It's always lovely talking to you.
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:32.319
And I love that we really got to touch on what makes a coaching conversation so important and that that human connection piece around allowing someone the space to explore and um getting into the practical application.
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:37.119
You know, how do we turn awareness into meaningful change and the piece about motivation?
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.440
And we really just need the plan and and and sticking to it.
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:45.359
And that's that's one of my biggest takeaways from from our conversation today.
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:54.400
So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and for helping us all understand what happens below the surface in a great coaching conversation.
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:55.759
You made it very fun.
00:31:55.920 --> 00:31:57.759
May I share a couple of quick quotes?
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:00.880
Please would love, yes, love to.
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:04.400
Uh, and this is from Maya Angelo.
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:09.279
And even though it's about parents, I think it applies to coaches.
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:16.880
The greatest gift you can give your child is when their face lights up when the parent enters the room.
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:19.359
Same with coaches and clients.
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:22.720
And the other is from my favorite grandmother.
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:25.759
If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:28.079
I love it.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:32.000
That is great.
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:36.720
I'm actually gonna write that one down, and I and I agree with the Maya Angelo quote.
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:39.759
Um, it's and that's what we get to do.
00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:53.839
That's that's the gift we get to give people, is and and this is where the the the other sort of quote is is why I got into initially psychiatry cycling, and it's certainly why I got into coaching.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:07.200
My favorite athletic coach for all of my time kept saying one thing your mind is the most powerful thing in the world, and that still is orienting for me.
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:11.519
Oh, I love this.
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:12.720
It's so true.
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:13.680
It's so true.
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:19.359
Well, thank you again for sharing everything, quotes, wisdom, and all today.
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:21.279
And for my privilege.
00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:22.960
We appreciate it.
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:24.880
Thanks, Carrie.
