What does it mean to cultivate freedom for future generations? • Autumn Brown + Nicole Diroff

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>> Autumn Brown: You're working on behalf of a, future freedom of a
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future generation that you likely won't
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necessarily have contact with in the same timeline
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that you're currently in. But that doesn't mean
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that your work is any less important or
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meaningful. You are part of a much bigger story of
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freedom. Welcome to Climate Changed, a podcast
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from the BTS Center. I'm Autumn Brown.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: And I'm Reverend Nicole Diroff Together we explore
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how spiritual imagination and real world practice
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meet this moment of change. Thank you for joining
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us for our continued conversation. In the last
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episode of Climate Change, Autumn spoke with
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Frances Weller. Francis is a psychotherapist,
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writer and soul activist whose work has introduced
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the healing power of grief ritual to thousands of
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people. Through his organization, Wisdom Bridge,
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Francis weaves psychology, myth, ritual, and
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indigenous wisdom to help communities face sorrow,
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deepen imagination, and remember what it means to
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be held in communal care to ground us today. Here
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is a brief excerpt of what Francis had to say
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about navigating the long dark.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: The long dark emerged up out of the ground, out of
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Seoul to say, let's find language that evokes
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imagination. Let's find language that invites a
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different mode other than just analytical. It
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invites a different mode of perception. It does
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evoke imagination. It evokes a type of silent
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receptivity to a deep quality of listening that
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happens, in the darkness. Both words are
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meaningful. Long meaning. This is not going to be
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to, the end of this administration's term. It's
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not going to be a few years in length. We're
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talking generations, we're talking at least two
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generations before we might see something coalesce
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on the far end of repair and restoration. If we
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make it so, the long gives us a sense that, I
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won't see the end of this. You might. I'm not
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gonna see the end of the long dar. But that also
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means there's much work for me to do right now in
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terms of putting seed in the ground. What can I do
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that might germinate in the darkness? Right. I
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mean, that's why I love the second part of that
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phrase, the long dark. Our perception of dark is
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really so pejorative, so negative. Uh-huh. We need
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to reclaim this word and redeem this word to
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remember the holiness that dwells in the darkness.
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So I'm sitting here in my cabin in Northern
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California, looking out at redwoods and rays and
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Doug fir. I see them because of what's happening
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in the darkness. everything that I'm seeing is a
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manifestation of what's Happening below the ground
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in the dark. The microbes, the mycelia, the
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minerals, the root exchange, the mutual support
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that happens in the darkness. So the invitation
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again is for us to slow it down enough to begin to
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see what the teaching is in the darkness. There's
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a wonderful phrase by, Susan Murphy, Australian,
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Zen teacher. She said, we must develop the
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capacity to see with the dark adapted eye. No. So
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we can see in the darkness.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: We like things brightly lit. 24 7. It's as if our
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relationship to darkness is one of great suspicion
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and anxiety. We want to keep it lit all the time.
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But at night we enter the dreaming world. We enter
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the world where image dominates and gives us a
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different way of engaging our own personal psychic
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lives. That's the same space we're being invited
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into now. The darkness invites dreaming, it
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invites stillness, it invites quiet, it invites
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patience, and it invites restraint. We typically
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want to do something about the problem, right?
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This crisis we're in right now. Let's do
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something. Well, yeah, I'm not saying don't take
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actions. There's certain things we can do to
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mitigate. But I think the return to a, different
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relationship to the ground, to the earth, will
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require a different kind of listening, a different
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kind of not doing, of not knowing. In the old
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language, we are on what we call the via negativa,
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the road of not doing. The road of restraint, of
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holding back and waiting. I believe I shared with
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you and Adrian this term from the Inuit tradition,
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kartsuluni. And just for the listeners now,
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kartsaluni translates quite literally sitting
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quietly together in the darkness, waiting
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expectantly for something creative to burst forth.
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And these were the whaling people, and they
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couldn't go out to hunt until the whale people
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gave them a song that says that they are in mutual
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and reciprocal relationship with one another, that
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the whale people would be offering a gift of one
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of their bodies for the sustenance of the
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community. But that took them sitting quietly in
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the dark, waiting. This is not a white Western
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tradition. We don't wait. We march forward. We
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plunge into it.
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>> Autumn Brown: We discover.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: We discover and then we claim. So the mode here is
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very different.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Autumn, that conversation was such a gift. Thank
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you for bringing me and our listeners into what
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felt like a really, like, intimate room with you
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and with Frances, so wise, so much to share,
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>> Autumn Brown: and such good stuff stories. I mean, one of the
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things I really appreciated about Francis in this
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conversation and the other time that I spoke with
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him, he's one of those teachers who always Has a
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story at the ready to really take you as the
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listener right into the layer of depth that he's
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trying to speak at and speak to. It's so
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compelling to speak with him about his work.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: The best kind of teacher ones with stories. The
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place that your conversation ended totally sparked
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some stories for me.
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Thinking about friendship, for spiritual leaders
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who are trying to do the thing, to do the best
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thing in this climate changed world. I mean, we
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don't say that as our mission statement per se,
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but like, that is so the work of the BTS Center.
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Forming relationships of friendship and
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connecting, collegial camaraderie, honesty and
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possibility. I feel so privileged to get to
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experiment in that realm of work day in and day
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out at this organization. I could tell you about a
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number of different programs that I think are
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trying to engage in that space. But I want to tell
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you a little about one program that we offered. We
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called it Climate Advocacy and the Sacred Wild.
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And we purposefully brought together executive
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directors or senior leaders of faith and climate
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or faith and environment organizations. We
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identified about 20 such leaders. Our purpose was
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to build intimacy with the natural world, to offer
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them spaciousness to have the relationship with
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nature and with one another that, ah, is at the
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root of what they're working on, but often gets
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put to the side as there's huge to do lists and
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people to call on Capitol Hill and so many things.
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So we brought them to Maine. We partnered with
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some amazing organizations to invite people and
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then with the center for Spirituality and Nature
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to help frame our time together. And I want to
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share two sort of favorite moments during this
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retreat. The first one was when we first gathered.
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So everyone had come from a number of different
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places and taken planes and trains and automobiles
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to get to this retreat center. We started by
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saying, you are not allowed to start working on a
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new project during this retreat because these
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folks, many work with one another already or would
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be really excited. Ooh, I'm in a room with so and
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so and I'd really like to do this or that project
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with them. so we said this is meant to be retreat.
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>> Autumn Brown: This is meant to be immersive.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Totally. Like try and turn that off. And it's
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hard. It's really hard. You know, you're not
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allowed, like this is the boundary. But what does
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it mean to actually be here, to form relationship
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with the natural world and with one another? The
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other moment I want to share with you one of the
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activities after Dark that the center for
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Spirituality and Nature led us in was taking
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infrared Flashlights and exploring the flower and
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vegetable garden that was at the retreat center in
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the dark. That infrared reveals some things that
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our human eyes do not normally see. So many birds
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and bugs can see in a whole spectrum of light that
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we humans can't see in the. There are some flowers
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that have visible runways to the pollen that we
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normally can't see, but the bugs and the birds can
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see these like infrared, ah, lines being like,
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this is where you want to go. Come here. Like big
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signs. I wanted to share that moment because your
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conversation with Frances was talking about seeing
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in the dark. It just came so visibly to mind for
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me. These flashlights that offer a new way of
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seeing that other creatures are already have.
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>> Autumn Brown: Yes.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: And just the other week, my 11 year old and I, we
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found that infrared flashlight that had been given
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out during that retreat. And we went into the
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woods because we've been learning about mushroom
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foraging. We heard rumors that like, mushrooms can
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sometimes have infrared abilities.
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>> Autumn Brown: Of course they do.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Right? Like, why not?
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>> Autumn Brown: What can't they do?
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Of course they do. We actually did not discover
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any mushroom infrared capabilities on that outing.
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But we discovered this first. It was just a glow
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as soon as we put the infrared light on it. So
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we're back in our woods, captivated by the wonder
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of it all. There are things to see in the dark. I
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highly recommend an infrared flashlight.
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>> Autumn Brown: I know, I'm like that.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: I.
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>> Autumn Brown: You're blowing my mind right now with this
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infrared flashlight detail. I have to say, I so
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appreciate the story of this retreat. It
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highlights two of the things that I was really
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thinking about after the conversation with Frances
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Weller. One being the time that it actually takes
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to deepen, into enough intimacy together to really
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be able to open. Yep, yeah. The space of the
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retreat. Retreats create the space and create the
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amount of time and togetherness that is actually
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needed.
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And then this piece around love leadership. I'm
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thinking about the boundary that you all set of no
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projects, no making new work, and how leadership
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in our society is so often seen as generating new
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ideas, generating projects, initiating things. I'm
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m thinking about that juxtaposed with the kind of
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call that I heard inside of the conversation with
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Francis that the thing that we are actually
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needing to do is cultivate mature adults. So I'm
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thinking now about leadership as spiritual
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maturation instead of leadership as initiation.
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Not initiation in the spiritual sense, but
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initiation like initiating work, doing work, doing
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things in the world. And I just really appreciate
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that by setting a boundary like that with your
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folks that are coming into the space of the
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retreat, you're actually inviting them into a
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different kind of spiritual maturation or a
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different kind of maturation around their own
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leadership that isn't about how do you make
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something out of this experience.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yep. Our work has been really informed by Margaret
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Wheatley and her book who do we choose to be.
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>> Autumn Brown: Yeah.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: In which she is talking about a concept that's in
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many spaces for her warriors of the human spirit.
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It's about being, not about doing and the
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discernment of what's really happening right now.
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And who do we choose to be in these times? So that
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retreat for senior leaders was about who are you
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choosing to be? And having that flow from an
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intimacy of relationship with fellow leaders and
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with the natural world as they got to experience
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it and less from all the doing. Like that the
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doing flows from the being well.
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>> Autumn Brown: And it sits right in relationship to this skill
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set that Francis was talking about us needing to
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cultivate the skill set of being and the restraint
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of just being present, expectantly waiting.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah.
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>> Autumn Brown: I mean, I have to say this is an aside, but one of
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the things that I've really appreciated about
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speaking with him as older white man, he is doing
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something that I think a lot of white people are
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really afraid to do right now, which is
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intentionally drawing on multiple wisdom
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traditions, including indigenous wisdom
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traditions. I'm m putting that work that he's
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doing where he's not claiming the ideas as his
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ideas, but just claiming them as like, this is
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wisdom for all people to be with and experience.
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And I'm putting that in relationship to Norma
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Wong's invitation to, us to really think
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differently about indigeneity as a way of being.
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We all have access to and all need to have access
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to. And I think that begins with receiving the
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wisdom teachings unapologetically.
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So I just wanted to name that in presence it in
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this conversation that to me, it is actually a
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responsibility as we're moving through this long
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dark period. You have a responsibility to figure
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out how to receive the wisdom traditions that are
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most applicable to this time, which might not be
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the wisdom tradition that you were raised inside
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of. I think I just wanted to presence that before
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we go into any further talking about him, because
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I imagine that that's a complexity that some of
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our listeners might be holding is like this white
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guy who's referencing Inuit.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah. This question of how we relate to wisdoms
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that are not of our ancestors, not of our
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tradition, direct lineage.
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>> Autumn Brown: Right.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Or even our adopted and practiced traditions
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becoming part of a particular faith community and
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learning and adopting those practices, I think is
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really something that's worth being in
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relationship with intention. Bringing our best
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selves to how we relate to those wisdoms. We
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engaged with a book called Life After Doom,
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written by Brian McLaren. As a white male, he
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draws on wisdom of indigenous traditions. He is
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speaking as a Christian leader. He says, we
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Christians, we Christian leaders, seeing this
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wisdom and how needed it is for this particular
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moment, are now invited to scrap all our old
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readings of the Bible, acknowledge that they were
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impacted severely by Empire, and bring completely
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fresh eyes to our own texts. Understanding them as
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indigenous and ecological texts.
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>> Autumn Brown: Ooh, yeah.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: That is a challenge I have been trying to live
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into ever since I received that invitation. It is
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this question of receiving wisdom and unpacking
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wisdom within your own community. I don't know.
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That balance of using I language but also being
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appreciative of what others bring. I don't know.
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You have been in this work of diversity for a long
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time and it's an art form. I don't know what else
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to call it. It's a dance.
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>> Autumn Brown: Well, it feels very related to how are we becoming
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human again? Colonization has pushed us so far
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into the realm of separation that we really
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believe that these categories are real.
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As you know, I recently finished writing this book
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on fugitive practice, a part of what motivated me
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to develop this body of work. And I want to, you
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know, again, naming lineage. I want to be really
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clear. I didn't come up with the idea of fugitive
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practice. I'm simply writing inside of a lineage
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of black liberation, black liberatory practice,
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black feminist practice in particular. I'm writing
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in a lineage that includes many, many black
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feminist thinkers and spiritual leaders before me
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who've also taken up this. And I would say it's
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beyond an identity, but really taken on the shape,
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the embodied shape of the fugitive, to say, what
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do we have to learn from this shape? The shape of
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the fugitive. Right. What is a fugitive? A
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fugitive is someone who has escaped from a place
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and is in hiding. And if we think about fugitivity
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as a spiritual and political practice, it's about
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saying, I am going to make myself fugitive from
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these supremacy systems of separation and
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categorization and individualism. And for me, part
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of where that begins is by recognizing if I
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genuinely say I do not subscribe to white
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supremacy as an organizing system of my life,
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there's so much about the way that supremacy
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system has organized my life that I have to be
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willing to let go of, including the parts of it
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that if I align myself with Them. It makes me feel
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safer. Right. Like the categories. My specific is
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this, which I think you will love, and maybe some
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of our listeners will love too. But I went through
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a real reversal in my relationship with white
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women in particular. White, people, but white
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women in particular. Where I started to realize
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that if I was in a conversation with a white woman
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and she was about to violate my boundaries, there
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was, like, a particular thing that would happen
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where her eyes would dilate. Over the course of a
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bunch of years, I started to see it. And then once
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I started to see it, I would realize I can see it
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coming.
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>> Autumn Brown: When a white woman is about to try to kind of
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like, inappropriately merge with me and violate my
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boundaries by doing a white woman thing, almost
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always, inevitably, eyes will dilate because
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there's a level of dissociation that happens, in
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the moment of the attempted merge. Once I realized
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that I could see it coming, it reversed my sense
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of responsibility for what happened next. So
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instead of orienting as like, I can't believe this
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person is doing this to me, I started to have a
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sense of, I'm the more grounded person in the m.
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Experience. I'm the one who actually knows what's
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happening. Which means I have a different
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responsibility for how to respond, how to relate,
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what boundary to have, how to assert my boundary,
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how to be really, really clear and firm and not
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participate in the merging. I kid you not, Nicole.
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It fundamentally changed the way I relate to white
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people. so now I. I've gone through this psychic
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shift where I don't enter into interactions or
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conversations with white people cowering in
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advance or feeling that they have power over me or
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fearing, awaiting.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Just like, waiting for something to.
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>> Autumn Brown: To happen.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah.
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>> Autumn Brown: Part of that is because I know what to do, and I
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know that I. I will do what is needed in the
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inevitable moment where something does happen.
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Right. Because it's not an if, it's a when. but,
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what I've done is been able to reclaim my agency
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over my body and my embodied experience of the
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moment, rather than feeling taken under or taken
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out by someone else's dissociated behavior. For
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me, that is fugitive practice. It's about saying
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that I, will not let the system claim me by
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participating the way that I'm expected to
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participate, which is to sort of cower and then
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allow whatever's going to happen to happen until
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it's over. Instead, I'm just like, oh, no. If I
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see it coming, I'll just say, I'm not available
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for this conversation. You know, as simple as
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that. No apology, no explanation.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Now, fugitivity. Tell me more about the hiding
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piece of that. Because hiding feels disempowered
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when I think of that word.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: M. But what you just described was not
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disempowered.
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>> Autumn Brown: I invite people always, to begin with, imagining
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someone who has made themself fugitive in the
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context of enslavement.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah.
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>> Autumn Brown: So if you think about the context of enslavement
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and the mechanics of the plantation, the fugitive
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is someone who, against all odds and despite all
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evidence to the contrary, has to say, I don't
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belong here. I belong out there. I am free. And
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I'm courageously and maybe desperately releasing
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the shackles that say that I'm a not free person.
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And I'm exiting into the wilderness, into the
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darkness, trusting that there is a version of me
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that I get to step into. Even if it's for a short
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period of time. There is a version of me that I
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get to step into that is the freest version of
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myself. In order to do that, I have to make myself
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invisible to supremacy. So it's hiding in the
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sense of I'm removing my body. Uh-huh. Under
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conditions of enslavement, people who were
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enslaved were property. Right. So the act of theft
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is that they're stealing themselves away from the
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system. Right. They're stealing their own body.
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And so there is an element of hiding and
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secretiveness and moving in darkness that, is a
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part of what the fugitive has to do because of
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: the systems that they're in.
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>> Autumn Brown: Yes, yes. And so of course now it is and isn't a
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metaphor. Right. We still are living under pretty
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extraordinary supremacy systems. We still have
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people who are being, I mean, right now, kidnapped
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off the streets and enslaved and locked up and all
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the things, like all these things are happening.
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Part of what that means is that unlike a couple
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hundred years ago, it's not like there is a safer
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place to geographically go to right now without
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leaving the country. But even that presents its
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own significant security concerns. And so to me,
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it's the practice of fugitivity now is about
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practicing the freest version of myself in this
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context, having a felt experience that regardless
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of the conditions, I am a free person. This
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relates to both the wisdom that we heard from
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Francis Weller and similarly the wisdom we heard
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from Norma Wong. This thing that you lifted up
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about the being versus doing. Yeah. we often think
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about freedom as something that we do.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Right.
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>> Autumn Brown: But actually freedom is something that we are.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Nice.
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>> Autumn Brown: It requires practice to remember that to Remember
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that we actually are free, even inside of a
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context that says that we're not free.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It speaks so much to the soul
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>> Autumn Brown: work,
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: the soul work that we have in these times in this
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climate changed world, this kind of context that
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we keep coming back to in this podcast. Climate
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changed world is so external and it's getting
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faster. You know, I mean, you talked about pace of
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change with Frances and it can be so distractive
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and overwhelming. So to claim within that a sense
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of my soul, my heart is mine, and I get to choose
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how I meet. This moment is really powerful.
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>> Autumn Brown: You're tuned in to climate change. After the
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break, we'll hear more.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Foreign.
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00:25:25,711 --> 00:25:29,471
>> Autumn Brown: You're hearing a lot today about holding space for
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what hurts. If you want a place to do that in
473
00:25:32,511 --> 00:25:36,671
community, explore Lament with Earth. A year of
474
00:25:36,671 --> 00:25:40,671
online gatherings, weaving music, ritual and
475
00:25:40,671 --> 00:25:45,121
collective lament. It's gentle grounding and open
476
00:25:45,121 --> 00:25:45,721
to all.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Learn more and join the next gathering at the
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00:25:49,361 --> 00:25:58,881
btscenter.org lamentwithearth. If you're newer to
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00:25:58,881 --> 00:26:01,641
this show, I want to invite you to spend some time
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00:26:01,641 --> 00:26:04,961
with our first season. Those conversations explore
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00:26:04,961 --> 00:26:08,401
what it means to lead with spiritual courage in a
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00:26:08,401 --> 00:26:10,521
world shaped by climate disruption.
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00:26:10,981 --> 00:26:13,221
>> Autumn Brown: You'll find a rich archive of conversations.
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00:26:13,701 --> 00:26:17,861
Chaplains, cultural workers, theologians, poets,
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00:26:18,421 --> 00:26:22,061
each one offering something steadying and deeply
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00:26:22,061 --> 00:26:24,631
human. Explore previous seasons@,
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climatechangepodcast.org hi there,
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00:26:28,711 --> 00:26:35,831
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: it's Ophelia from the BTS Center. Did you know
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that our team puts together show notes and
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00:26:37,631 --> 00:26:40,271
discussion questions for you for every episode?
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00:26:41,271 --> 00:26:43,591
Climate Changed is for you and your spiritual
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00:26:43,591 --> 00:26:43,911
community.
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00:26:45,191 --> 00:26:47,991
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: You can find all this and more online at, climate
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00:26:47,991 --> 00:26:51,551
changed podcast.org now
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00:26:51,631 --> 00:26:52,511
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: back to the show.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: I wonder, as you've been hosting this season of
497
00:27:09,801 --> 00:27:15,641
climate Change, how your exploration of fugitivity
498
00:27:15,961 --> 00:27:19,561
informed the questions you were asking. Do you
499
00:27:19,561 --> 00:27:22,280
feel like the things you wanted to probe about
500
00:27:22,361 --> 00:27:25,481
were impacted by just that deep thinking and
501
00:27:25,481 --> 00:27:28,841
writing and becoming public on all these pieces?
502
00:27:30,041 --> 00:27:32,881
>> Autumn Brown: Certainly, I would say fugitivity absolutely
503
00:27:32,881 --> 00:27:34,961
informed probably all of the questions that I
504
00:27:34,961 --> 00:27:36,031
asked all of our guests.
505
00:27:36,031 --> 00:27:36,101
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: But.
506
00:27:36,491 --> 00:27:39,731
>> Autumn Brown: But certainly with Frances, through my own work,
507
00:27:39,731 --> 00:27:42,571
I've been really touching into the importance of
508
00:27:42,731 --> 00:27:48,451
ritual and the need for creating new rituals as a
509
00:27:48,451 --> 00:27:53,851
part of formulating new ways of thinking and being
510
00:27:54,091 --> 00:27:57,731
together. A way that reifies or reinforces the
511
00:27:57,731 --> 00:28:00,021
idea that we're free. Yeah, I started to notice
512
00:28:00,021 --> 00:28:02,021
that over the years, especially in my political
513
00:28:02,021 --> 00:28:04,631
work. For years I worked with community
514
00:28:04,791 --> 00:28:07,231
organizations who were working on the front lines
515
00:28:07,231 --> 00:28:09,711
of some of the most critical issues of the time
516
00:28:09,711 --> 00:28:12,951
that we're living through. But the internal
517
00:28:13,111 --> 00:28:15,911
realities of these organizations and the internal
518
00:28:15,911 --> 00:28:18,311
realities of the people who were inside of them
519
00:28:18,311 --> 00:28:22,591
was so full of pain. So much pain, so much
520
00:28:22,591 --> 00:28:26,151
anguish, so much reinforcing and repetition of the
521
00:28:26,151 --> 00:28:29,401
harm that everyone is fighting. I was always being
522
00:28:29,401 --> 00:28:32,121
called in to work with organizations where the
523
00:28:32,121 --> 00:28:34,201
exact dynamics that everyone was fighting
524
00:28:34,201 --> 00:28:36,641
externally were the things that were playing out
525
00:28:36,641 --> 00:28:37,201
internally.
526
00:28:37,201 --> 00:28:37,681
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Wow.
527
00:28:37,921 --> 00:28:41,161
>> Autumn Brown: And it's because the organizational shape, both
528
00:28:41,161 --> 00:28:43,921
logistically but also spiritually, was mirroring
529
00:28:44,001 --> 00:28:46,121
the external conditions, the institutional
530
00:28:46,121 --> 00:28:46,561
conditions.
531
00:28:46,801 --> 00:28:49,601
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: This happens in churches all the time, right?
532
00:28:49,761 --> 00:28:50,521
>> Autumn Brown: All the time.
533
00:28:50,521 --> 00:28:52,681
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: This is church. Everybody should be righteous and
534
00:28:52,681 --> 00:28:55,041
there should be no conflict. And, like, weren't we
535
00:28:55,041 --> 00:28:57,681
actually. This is just another organization in our
536
00:28:57,681 --> 00:28:59,591
world, Right, Right.
537
00:28:59,591 --> 00:29:01,871
>> Autumn Brown: I mean, so much of it does come down to how we do
538
00:29:01,871 --> 00:29:04,351
conflict. Right. There's that. That in and of
539
00:29:04,351 --> 00:29:07,951
itself, the idea that somehow having values,
540
00:29:07,951 --> 00:29:10,191
alignment would result in there being no friction
541
00:29:10,191 --> 00:29:12,831
and nothing to decide of. So weird. But that's
542
00:29:12,831 --> 00:29:16,071
also an expression of separation and the
543
00:29:16,071 --> 00:29:18,631
homogeneity that is trying to be enforced by these
544
00:29:18,631 --> 00:29:21,631
institutions of supremacy. The idea that if you
545
00:29:21,631 --> 00:29:24,551
all just behave in alignment with the categories,
546
00:29:24,551 --> 00:29:26,431
then there will be no friction because everything
547
00:29:26,431 --> 00:29:29,091
will be working. And then folks inevitably find
548
00:29:29,091 --> 00:29:31,371
themselves in the actual mess of human life, and
549
00:29:31,371 --> 00:29:33,051
then they feel they're not equipped.
550
00:29:33,291 --> 00:29:34,091
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: They're not equipped.
551
00:29:34,491 --> 00:29:37,611
>> Autumn Brown: And so I started to notice in my own work, first
552
00:29:37,611 --> 00:29:39,811
it was just bringing attention to, like, what are
553
00:29:39,811 --> 00:29:41,971
the rituals and ceremonies that y' all are engaged
554
00:29:41,971 --> 00:29:43,691
in that you don't even realize that you're engaged
555
00:29:43,691 --> 00:29:45,411
in? You know what I mean? Because you're.
556
00:29:45,411 --> 00:29:48,651
Everyone's engaged in ritual and ceremony. It's
557
00:29:48,651 --> 00:29:50,891
unintentional. It's not thoughtful, it's not
558
00:29:50,891 --> 00:29:53,981
intentional. It's rituals of berating m.
559
00:29:54,701 --> 00:29:57,581
Ceremonies of harm. Right. That's what a lot of
560
00:29:57,581 --> 00:29:59,461
people are engaged in. And so first it was just
561
00:29:59,461 --> 00:30:01,141
bringing attention to that of, like, what are we
562
00:30:01,141 --> 00:30:04,061
ceremonializing here? And then saying, can we
563
00:30:04,221 --> 00:30:07,261
create new and different ceremonies? Can we create
564
00:30:07,341 --> 00:30:10,181
different rituals that actually give us a sense
565
00:30:10,181 --> 00:30:12,941
that we are in real community with one another?
566
00:30:13,501 --> 00:30:15,821
And so that being something that I was already
567
00:30:15,901 --> 00:30:18,701
really wrestling with meant that when I was coming
568
00:30:18,701 --> 00:30:20,941
into this conversation with Frances in particular,
569
00:30:21,181 --> 00:30:24,041
I'm like, this is someone who has spent decades
570
00:30:24,041 --> 00:30:27,561
trying to figure out how to support people in a US
571
00:30:27,641 --> 00:30:31,601
Context to, as he named it, to re. Engage with the
572
00:30:31,601 --> 00:30:34,441
primal matrix, like, the thing that we are
573
00:30:34,441 --> 00:30:37,321
actually primed to experience and are not getting
574
00:30:37,321 --> 00:30:41,041
to experience in our society. It feels almost like
575
00:30:41,041 --> 00:30:44,241
an overwhelming level of problem. We think of
576
00:30:44,241 --> 00:30:46,521
climate change as the overwhelming problem, but to
577
00:30:46,521 --> 00:30:49,521
Me, the symptom problem. That feels overwhelming.
578
00:30:49,521 --> 00:30:53,041
Exactly. And I appreciated that Francis named it
579
00:30:53,041 --> 00:30:55,481
as something that we first and foremost need to
580
00:30:55,481 --> 00:30:58,841
grieve. Yes. This is part of the long dark is
581
00:30:58,841 --> 00:31:02,281
being in this time period, these generations,
582
00:31:02,361 --> 00:31:05,801
where there has been years of absence of ritual.
583
00:31:06,121 --> 00:31:06,681
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah.
584
00:31:07,241 --> 00:31:10,001
>> Autumn Brown: That's part of how we got here. And ritual is part
585
00:31:10,001 --> 00:31:11,321
of how we find our way out.
586
00:31:11,561 --> 00:31:12,041
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Yeah.
587
00:31:12,121 --> 00:31:16,601
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: The grief piece is so powerful. And the long time
588
00:31:16,601 --> 00:31:19,631
ness of, of proclaiming this moment as the long
589
00:31:19,631 --> 00:31:23,431
dark, engaging with what you described as so
590
00:31:23,431 --> 00:31:27,911
overwhelming that it feels like I can't make a
591
00:31:27,911 --> 00:31:31,191
difference on this. And so saying, you know what?
592
00:31:31,191 --> 00:31:35,471
This is a generations long situation that we are
593
00:31:35,471 --> 00:31:38,911
in. We have a moment that we are blessed with to
594
00:31:38,911 --> 00:31:42,151
be alive. What we're working on, we're not gonna
595
00:31:42,151 --> 00:31:44,201
see the end of the. Accepting that at the
596
00:31:44,201 --> 00:31:48,441
beginning allows us to continue to choose who
597
00:31:48,441 --> 00:31:52,161
we're gonna be in these times that may be long and
598
00:31:52,161 --> 00:31:53,041
maybe dark.
599
00:31:54,081 --> 00:31:56,801
>> Autumn Brown: To me, that is one of the gifts of the fugitive
600
00:31:56,801 --> 00:32:00,641
orientation is placing yourself in a much longer
601
00:32:00,641 --> 00:32:03,401
timeline and understanding that you're not working
602
00:32:03,401 --> 00:32:06,201
on behalf of your own freedom. You're working on
603
00:32:06,201 --> 00:32:08,671
behalf of a, future freedom of a future generation
604
00:32:08,671 --> 00:32:11,711
that you likely won't necessarily have contact
605
00:32:11,711 --> 00:32:13,631
with in the same timeline that you're currently
606
00:32:13,631 --> 00:32:16,691
in. But that doesn't mean that your work is any
607
00:32:16,691 --> 00:32:19,651
less important or meaningful. You are part of a
608
00:32:19,651 --> 00:32:22,851
much bigger story of freedom. And what a blessing
609
00:32:23,251 --> 00:32:25,771
to me, it's been actually so freeing to not think
610
00:32:25,771 --> 00:32:28,051
of my freedom work as being on my own behalf
611
00:32:28,291 --> 00:32:31,771
because it liberates me into actually doing what I
612
00:32:31,771 --> 00:32:34,731
can do instead of feeling frozen like nothing I do
613
00:32:34,731 --> 00:32:35,251
matters.
614
00:32:35,651 --> 00:32:39,011
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Autumn, I'm so grateful to your willingness to
615
00:32:39,011 --> 00:32:43,291
dive deep with the concept of fugitivity and to
616
00:32:43,371 --> 00:32:46,451
work to put it out to the world in a book format
617
00:32:46,451 --> 00:32:48,331
that I will pick up as soon as it is available.
618
00:32:48,971 --> 00:32:52,011
But to go deep with these concepts, that will be
619
00:32:52,011 --> 00:32:55,731
helpful. And fugitivity is so provocative and
620
00:32:55,731 --> 00:32:57,611
empowering. Yeah.
621
00:32:58,011 --> 00:32:58,531
>> Autumn Brown: Thank you.
622
00:32:58,531 --> 00:32:59,051
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: I'm excited.
623
00:32:59,051 --> 00:32:59,911
>> Autumn Brown: I'm so glad. Yeah.
624
00:32:59,911 --> 00:33:03,211
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Ah, it's been such a gift to have that perspective
625
00:33:03,371 --> 00:33:06,531
with us for this series of episodes in climate
626
00:33:06,531 --> 00:33:06,891
change.
627
00:33:08,131 --> 00:33:10,611
>> Autumn Brown: Well, it's been such a gift for me to get to be a
628
00:33:10,611 --> 00:33:13,651
part of this series and be in conversation with
629
00:33:13,651 --> 00:33:16,931
you and all of our amazing guests. It's just the
630
00:33:16,931 --> 00:33:19,331
greatest gift. Very much a part of my freedom.
631
00:33:20,211 --> 00:33:21,811
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Beautiful. Love it.
632
00:33:32,051 --> 00:33:35,561
So as we we turn to some next steps which are
633
00:33:35,561 --> 00:33:39,401
important for us in this podcast as we often get
634
00:33:39,481 --> 00:33:42,641
pretty caught up in ideas to make sure that we are
635
00:33:42,641 --> 00:33:46,561
offering some meaningful and achievable next
636
00:33:46,561 --> 00:33:50,961
steps. And I think I might start just inviting you
637
00:33:50,961 --> 00:33:54,201
to consider some of Francis's questions that
638
00:33:54,201 --> 00:33:57,841
surfaced in his conversation with Autumn. What are
639
00:33:57,841 --> 00:34:01,951
the actual hazards in your place? And what gifts
640
00:34:02,031 --> 00:34:05,391
do you and your communities carry that could be
641
00:34:05,391 --> 00:34:09,031
brought to bear when crisis comes? I invite you,
642
00:34:09,031 --> 00:34:11,951
as you think about that, to be both imaginative
643
00:34:11,951 --> 00:34:15,951
and specific. Another question Frances asks just
644
00:34:15,951 --> 00:34:19,991
as importantly, who are your friends? Who are the
645
00:34:19,991 --> 00:34:22,511
people with whom you can practice slowing down,
646
00:34:22,911 --> 00:34:25,351
practice telling the truth, and practice holding
647
00:34:25,351 --> 00:34:26,671
one another in love?
648
00:34:27,811 --> 00:34:31,371
>> Autumn Brown: We also asked Francis to offer a next step that
649
00:34:31,371 --> 00:34:33,811
you can take after hearing this episode. Something
650
00:34:33,891 --> 00:34:37,411
small, grounded and doable in our daily lives.
651
00:34:37,411 --> 00:34:39,411
So let's hear what Francis had to say.
652
00:34:39,811 --> 00:34:41,411
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: So there's three things. There's. There's the
653
00:34:41,411 --> 00:34:44,091
image itself, which is the phenomenon. We have
654
00:34:44,091 --> 00:34:46,851
these dreams. We have daytime images come. Then
655
00:34:46,851 --> 00:34:48,931
there's the imagination, which is the practice of
656
00:34:48,931 --> 00:34:51,851
engagement with the image. And then there's the
657
00:34:51,851 --> 00:34:54,911
imaginal, which is the background humor of the
658
00:34:54,911 --> 00:34:57,791
cosmos. So when you look at most traditional
659
00:34:57,791 --> 00:35:00,751
cultures, like the Aboriginal folks in Australia,
660
00:35:01,391 --> 00:35:04,191
that dreamtime, the imaginal world, is the real
661
00:35:04,191 --> 00:35:08,631
world, and they spend their life attending to that
662
00:35:08,631 --> 00:35:11,471
world through the rituals, the songs, the dances,
663
00:35:11,551 --> 00:35:15,511
the paintings. It's all geared towards sustaining
664
00:35:15,511 --> 00:35:18,311
an intimacy with the imaginal realm, with the
665
00:35:18,311 --> 00:35:21,741
dreamtime. And when that's done, this world stays
666
00:35:21,741 --> 00:35:26,021
green, stays alive, stays fresh. When we abandon
667
00:35:26,021 --> 00:35:29,221
the imaginal, this world corrodes and devolves,
668
00:35:30,111 --> 00:35:32,551
and is diminished. And so we're not paying much
669
00:35:32,551 --> 00:35:35,371
attention to the imaginal anymore. How, do we keep
670
00:35:35,371 --> 00:35:37,451
relating to that energy? Jung said that's the
671
00:35:37,451 --> 00:35:41,011
primary activity of psyche, is image making. So
672
00:35:41,011 --> 00:35:43,011
when we tap into that, we're tapping into this
673
00:35:43,171 --> 00:35:47,621
wellspring of inspiration, idea, creativity. All
674
00:35:47,621 --> 00:35:49,781
of those things can arise up out of the imaginal
675
00:35:49,781 --> 00:35:51,771
ground, out of the. Out of the working with the
676
00:35:51,771 --> 00:35:54,771
imagination. That is what fortifies me almost
677
00:35:54,771 --> 00:35:57,931
every single day. Tapping into that territory and
678
00:35:57,931 --> 00:36:00,451
seeing not only in my nighttime dreams, but
679
00:36:00,531 --> 00:36:03,531
deliberately going into the imaginal realm, which
680
00:36:03,531 --> 00:36:05,531
is what, you know, most traditions would call the
681
00:36:05,531 --> 00:36:08,451
shamanic practices of how do we tap into that,
682
00:36:08,891 --> 00:36:12,221
dreaming time that's always there? And going into
683
00:36:12,221 --> 00:36:14,981
the imagination is a great source of renewal and
684
00:36:14,981 --> 00:36:16,621
support for my work in the world.
685
00:36:17,061 --> 00:36:19,581
>> Autumn Brown: How do you do that, Francis, in your own day to
686
00:36:19,581 --> 00:36:19,861
day?
687
00:36:20,581 --> 00:36:22,861
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Sometimes I just lay on the floor and put a towel
688
00:36:22,861 --> 00:36:26,181
over my eyes. I give myself an opening image, like
689
00:36:26,181 --> 00:36:28,341
sometimes, you know, going down the trunk of a
690
00:36:28,341 --> 00:36:31,841
tree, which is an old shamanic Practice. But then
691
00:36:31,841 --> 00:36:34,921
Jung said, you have to let go and let be. You
692
00:36:34,921 --> 00:36:38,561
can't direct what happens next. You just have to
693
00:36:38,561 --> 00:36:42,281
allow the image to happen. And I can tell you,
694
00:36:42,361 --> 00:36:45,321
I've been shown so many things that my mind could
695
00:36:45,321 --> 00:36:48,521
not figure out. But in the imaginal world, that's
696
00:36:48,521 --> 00:36:51,271
how you reconcile that. Oh, that's how those two
697
00:36:51,271 --> 00:36:53,911
are connected. Oh. That's the resolution of that
698
00:36:53,911 --> 00:36:57,071
trouble, you know. So I would highly encourage
699
00:36:57,071 --> 00:36:59,871
people to cultivate a relationship to that
700
00:36:59,871 --> 00:37:02,551
dimension. So important. So important. And then
701
00:37:02,551 --> 00:37:06,951
rest. Very heretical practice nowadays is to rest.
702
00:37:07,111 --> 00:37:10,831
We push ourselves so much under the fantasy that
703
00:37:10,831 --> 00:37:13,391
I'm going to somehow figure it out or have the
704
00:37:13,391 --> 00:37:16,781
answer or something, you know. But rest is really
705
00:37:16,941 --> 00:37:19,941
a rebellious activity. There's so much around
706
00:37:19,941 --> 00:37:22,421
resistance in that action of saying, I'm not gonna
707
00:37:22,421 --> 00:37:24,781
participate in the mania of capitalism.
708
00:37:25,101 --> 00:37:25,501
>> Autumn Brown: Right.
709
00:37:25,981 --> 00:37:28,541
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: I'm gonna step out of that and step into again
710
00:37:28,541 --> 00:37:31,701
another state of receptivity and listening. What
711
00:37:31,701 --> 00:37:33,881
is soul saying to me now? not just my own
712
00:37:33,881 --> 00:37:36,001
inflection of that, but what is the soul of the
713
00:37:36,001 --> 00:37:38,721
world saying to us in the symptomology of the
714
00:37:38,721 --> 00:37:42,521
times? You know, decay, breakdown, collapse, these
715
00:37:42,521 --> 00:37:45,911
are not accidental. I think there's intentionality
716
00:37:45,911 --> 00:37:48,751
behind all this. We're being shown that we've
717
00:37:48,751 --> 00:37:51,791
tried to climb as far as we could climb. Kind of
718
00:37:51,791 --> 00:37:54,751
like Icarus. And now we're on the fall, right?
719
00:37:54,751 --> 00:37:58,031
We're in the collapse, Right? There's wisdom in
720
00:37:58,031 --> 00:38:00,951
that move, there's intelligence in that move. And
721
00:38:00,951 --> 00:38:03,031
our job is to learn again how to listen in the
722
00:38:03,031 --> 00:38:03,391
dark.
723
00:38:05,471 --> 00:38:08,231
>> Autumn Brown: As you reflect on Francis's words, we would like
724
00:38:08,231 --> 00:38:17,231
to invite you to consider trying something. Gather
725
00:38:17,311 --> 00:38:20,991
three to five people. Could be friends, neighbors,
726
00:38:21,151 --> 00:38:24,071
or members of your faith community for what we
727
00:38:24,071 --> 00:38:28,231
would call a listening circle. Take an hour, maybe
728
00:38:28,231 --> 00:38:31,351
two. Sit together, turn off your phones, very
729
00:38:31,351 --> 00:38:34,791
important. And simply take turns naming one thing
730
00:38:34,791 --> 00:38:36,951
in your life or in the world that is weighing on
731
00:38:36,951 --> 00:38:42,271
your heart. Allow m space for silence. Especially
732
00:38:42,271 --> 00:38:44,711
when you run out of things to say. You don't need
733
00:38:44,711 --> 00:38:47,671
to solve anything. Just practice being present and
734
00:38:47,751 --> 00:38:51,431
holding one another with attention. Measure it by
735
00:38:51,431 --> 00:38:54,071
whether everybody in the circle has been heard
736
00:38:54,151 --> 00:38:56,711
once. That's your only measure.
737
00:38:57,191 --> 00:39:01,791
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Love that idea. I'll bring in something for any of
738
00:39:01,791 --> 00:39:05,191
you who maybe facilitate or offer leadership in
739
00:39:05,191 --> 00:39:11,171
spaces and have the ability to slow, things down.
740
00:39:11,811 --> 00:39:15,491
I'd invite you to consider two or three minutes of
741
00:39:15,491 --> 00:39:18,531
silence as a tool to be deployed in your
742
00:39:18,771 --> 00:39:22,091
facilitator's toolkit as you come into a meeting
743
00:39:22,091 --> 00:39:24,851
or as you make a transition or even as you're
744
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closing to deploy two or three minutes of shared
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quiet. And that's how I usually introduce it.
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We're going to spend some time in shared quiet.
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Usually when it's wrapping up, I will say
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something about how that may have felt short to
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you or that may have felt long to you. It's
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usually true that different people receive those
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couple minutes of shared quiet differently. I know
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I am often surprised at actually how long and how
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effective two or three minutes can be.
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>> Autumn Brown: So true, so true. Two minutes turns out, is a long
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time. Thank you Nicole. That's an awesome next
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step.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: M
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>> Autumn Brown: and thank you listeners. Thank you for listening
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00:40:08,651 --> 00:40:12,331
to Climate Change, a podcast from the BTS center,
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00:40:12,491 --> 00:40:12,811
which
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00:40:12,811 --> 00:40:15,131
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: is located in beautiful Portland, Maine.
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00:40:15,610 --> 00:40:18,891
>> Autumn Brown: If this episode is opening your imagination, go
763
00:40:18,891 --> 00:40:21,211
back and listen to season two of Climate Change.
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That whole season asks what becomes possible when
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00:40:24,851 --> 00:40:28,121
communities tap into creativity and imagination as
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00:40:28,121 --> 00:40:30,621
collaboration climate practice. Visit climate
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00:40:30,621 --> 00:40:35,261
changepodcast.org Our show is produced by Peterson
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00:40:35,261 --> 00:40:36,141
Toscano.
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00:40:36,381 --> 00:40:39,261
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: You can find transcripts, discussion guides, and
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00:40:39,261 --> 00:40:41,981
now full length video episodes with bonus
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00:40:41,981 --> 00:40:42,541
material.
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00:40:43,021 --> 00:40:47,221
>> Autumn Brown: Visit Climate Changed podcast.org Explore more
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00:40:47,221 --> 00:40:47,501
about
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00:40:47,501 --> 00:40:51,381
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: our in person and online programs. I would love to
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00:40:51,381 --> 00:40:53,661
see you at an upcoming program. You can learn
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00:40:53,661 --> 00:40:57,781
more@the btscenter.org Stay Connected,
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00:40:59,061 --> 00:41:02,421
>> Autumn Brown: Share this episode and reach out anytime.
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00:41:02,661 --> 00:41:06,141
Remember, you can email us podcast ah the
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00:41:06,141 --> 00:41:09,301
btscenter.org we love hearing from you
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00:41:10,180 --> 00:41:14,821
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: and a blessing as we close this episode. May you
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00:41:14,821 --> 00:41:19,141
lean into the long dark knowing that you are not
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00:41:19,141 --> 00:41:24,431
alone. You are part of a community of friends who
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00:41:24,431 --> 00:41:30,071
care. Together. Let us grieve, let us imagine, for
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it is indeed a blessing to be alive right now.
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>> Autumn Brown: Amen.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Amen.
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>> Autumn Brown: Thank you Nicole. Coming up, on the next episode
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of Climate Changed, Sam.